Religion – Etiquette Hell

Prayer Before Eating

September 18, 2017September 25, 2017admin60 Comments

While visiting my 81-year-old father, he extended an invitation for us to go to dinner, and he requested that I invite 2 other parties (family friends). My father typically extends this invitation when we are all together, and he always insists on paying the bill.

At the Mexican restaurant, we chatted and munched on tortilla chips and salsa. Before the entrees were served, Guest One (a family friend) announced, “Would ya’ll mind if we said grace?” She said that her husband would lead the prayer. I was caught off guard, and I felt more awkward when she announced that we should join hands. (I don’t want to touch someone else’s hands after I’ve already started to eat. Yuck!)

I’m not sure of the religious affiliation of Guest Two sitting to my left, but she seemed a little uncomfortable as well. Regardless, we joined hands and the husband said the prayer. I have no idea what he said because I wasn’t tuned in. My feelings of discomfort, being put on the spot by a guest in a public restaurant, completely soured me. My daughter and I just stared at each other across the table until we were permitted to commence eating our meal with the “Amen”.

My father wasn’t actively tuned in simply because he doesn’t hear well, and he often lags behind any conversation. The saying of grace was NOT a practiced ritual in our home growing up. I will also add that Guest One and her husband know that I am not religious. During a previous conversation, I explained to them that I did appreciate the kindness they’ve shown my parents, but that I did not believe what they believe. So this expectation of joining them in the saying of grace is even more bizarre.

This is not the first time that I’ve been expected to either participate in saying grace or delay eating while other guests say grace in a public restaurant. When dining out, my sister who is Christian, will instruct me to wait to eat because her 10-year-old son is going to say grace. Another awkward situation because now I don’t want to disappoint a child by not complying. So my nephew meanders through a prayer which usually has nothing to do with being thankful for the meal.

As a guest in someone’s home, I am always respectful of the host’s desire to say grace. I will sit quietly, but would prefer not to hold someone else’s hand right before I eat. But I comply simply because I don’t know how to politely reject taking someone’s hand.

My questions are:
“How do you decline involvement in the saying of grace and holding hands when at a public event?”
“If you don’t participate in the prayer, but just sit quietly, do the folks are either side reach over you to hold hands?”
“What is the expectation of religious people when they insist that others follow their personal rituals, specifically public prayer? For the religious, isn’t it slightly bothersome that friends/guests are complying only because they’re put on the spot and stuck in an awkward situation?”

I feel like this expectation is inappropriate and even bully-ish to a certain degree. Being religious isn’t a free ticket to be ill-mannered, but it often seems that way.

All perspectives are appreciated. Thank you. 1227-15

The answers to your questions boil down to issues regarding who is hosting the event more so than issues of religion. For example, if your father is the one who invites people to join him for dinner and he’s paying for it, as the host he has privilege of leading his guests in a food blessing or not. I think the friends of the family usurped his role as host and made an executive decision for all the guests when they should have quietly said grace for their own food and left it at that.

How do you decline involvement? You sit up straight, fold your hands in your lap and wait for the host to commence eating. The host/hostess sets the schedule for when to eat by eating first. That is the guests’ cue that they can now chow down, too. And if your ind host has chosen to pray along with someone else, you still follow your host’s cues and wait to eat because to begin eating before your host does is rude. If your host routinely says grace prior to eating, I think you need to respect that if you have accepted the offer of hospitality.

Regarding Christians, I am not aware of any magical advantage to making a circle connection via touching in order to pray over food and Christians who believe there is are simply wrong. It’s not like the prayer/blessing is flawed or invalid if the diners are not physically touching. I pray over my food more often than not but I’m not legalistic about it. My food is not going to rot in my belly or fail to nourish me if I choose to not say a prayer and I certainly don’t feel the need to touch people in the process. To be honest, I don’t think 99.5% of Christian will think twice about someone who chooses to not pray or touch.

Coffee Confessions

March 14, 2013March 13, 2013admin140 Comments

Yesterday my co-worker brought up an interesting topic at lunch. He is an usher at the Sunday traditional service in his church. For the past few Sundays, a church member has shown up with a large travel coffee mug when attending the service, and sips her beverage throughout the service. He finds this unusual, and it is not something he has seen before at the traditional service. The usher mentioned it to the minister, who decided not to address the situation. Apparently no one else in the congregation has mentioned it as bothering them. My co-worker’s question to us was, is it rude to bring a beverage to a church service?

I think it depends on your church and possibly on the nature of the service. I was raised Roman Catholic, and have never seen an adult drinking a beverage during the service, nor would this be considered appropriate. Another co-worker goes to an evangelical church, where the atmosphere is relaxed (jeans and t-shirts) and snacks and beverages are available in the church. She reported that people do bring beverages into the church services with them. As for the first co-worker’s church, considering that the service he ushers at is the more formal, traditional service, I think it is out of place to bring a travel mug, and probably not in keeping with the solemnity of the service. Of course, there may be information we do not know. Perhaps this church member has a medical condition that necessitates her drinking something frequently enough that she cannot go the entire hour the service takes without her beverage. My co-worker’s take on things was that she was just drinking coffee, though. He added that this person only recently started attending the traditional service, and he thinks she previously went to the”contemporary” service, where perhaps bringing in your coffee wouldn’t be as out of place.

To me, bringing a beverage into church makes it seem like going to the movies, as if it were entertainment to watch, rather than a solemn ceremony to participate in (and, admittedly, that’s based on my view of religious services). But if she’s not bothering anyone, it’s not rude, just perhaps odd. I look forward to hearing of others’ experiences or views. 0305-13

At the Sermon on the Mount, attended by thousands of people, Jesus multiplied the fishes and loaves so that everyone would have enough to eat. If Jesus is OK with people munching on food and drinking during his sermons, maybe we should be merciful to those who do likewise.

If the minister of your co-worker’s church sees nothing actionable in regards to a parishioner drinking coffee during the service, the buck stops with him to decide the issue.

Cult Etiquette

November 28, 2011November 27, 2011admin49 Comments

About 40 years ago, my husband and I were excommunicated from a cult because we had joined a singing group. They said we were heretics, though we are still believing and practicing Christians, and broke up our family.

We have since moved to another province and contacted a childhood friend of mine who is still in the cult. We are friendly with her and her husband and when we have to visit their city will attend the service, though we have to sit at the back, and then we go to lunch.

A mutual friend who is in the cult, came to our province to visit. We were visiting their city for a doctor’s appointment and invited my friend and husband, the mutual friend and her friend whom we had never met, to come and have dinner at our hotel. We provided the dinner. Immediately after the church service, we went and had coffee. During coffee, the mutual friend said, and I quote, “Why are you not in fellowship?” I replied, “I had enough trouble getting out of it, why would I want to get back into it?” She said, “Oh, well, they had a lot of silly rules then, they have changed.” They have NOT changed, they have got some different silly rules now. They went to their Bible Study and we went back to the hotel.

We served homemade spaghetti and meat balls, home made penne pasta with chicken and Alfredo Sauce, Salad, French Bread, Red and White Wine. Dessert was Jeanette’s left-over birthday cake with strawberries.

We reminisced a great deal and then the mutual friend started to attack us again, even worse. She told us we were wrong for going to the Baptist Church because they don’t have communion every Sunday and that is the one thing Jesus has asked us to do. I riposted by saying that Jesus also asked us to wash the disciples feet and your church doesn’t do that. I must go back by saying she started the conversation again by the, “Why are you not in the fellowship, you should be in the fellowship.” Finally, my husband said, “Just don’t go there!” She kept it up and finally he said, “This is my house and I will not continue this conversation.” She then said, “It is a hotel and NOT your house.” Then my husband said, “I have paid for this room and it is my house until tomorrow morning.” She finally stopped.

Can you believe this? I knew I had to be blunt over the exchange in the coffee shop because these people do NOT take NO for answer. My answer to normal people would probably have been, “Well, we have now joined the Baptist Church,” and a normal person would have left it at that.

Your thoughts would be appreciated. 0406-11

First, there will be people commenting on this post advising you to cut off all ties to anyone associated with this “cult”. It doesn’t appear you are in any danger of being kidnapped or damaged in any way by continuing a civil relationship with your friend and her husband. (Note to readers: Comments will not be approved if they focus on religious differences, rants, insults, instead of the etiquette of the situation.)

If your religious convictions are strong, you could view your continued association with friends still in the the church as a way to help them see the errors in their church’s doctrine. People firm in their religious beliefs are rarely rattled by someone else having a different religion or theology. It does not threaten their faith to hear something that differs from their beliefs. You, your husband, your friend and her husband can have a pleasant friendship because both couples are comfortable in their beliefs and being near someone different doesn’t shake that whereas the mutual friend is behaving as if she was threatened and must reconcile the conflict she feels. I would view her aggressive questions and hostility as a chink in the armor that I might exploit for her edification. Continued demands for answers is clearly an invitation to address the topic with her but perhaps with calm answers she may not expect to hear.

If the topic of why you left that church is not open for discussion with anyone, I would have bean dipped like a fiend every time she asked impertinent questions about it. Yes, there will be an awkwardness to the conversation when she asks and get utterly ignored with a conversational redirection but she’s creating it. You are merely being the good host and conversational gatekeeper by keeping the conversation on its original track. This is one of those times when a stunned, icy stare comes in handy when someone has the audacity to be nosy about matters that are none of their business.

“Ramadan Kareem” In The Work Place

August 4, 2011August 4, 2011admin54 Comments

I write to you today because I am very unsure of what to do and have had little luck using even your informative site to find out the proper manners/social courtesy.

I have many clients at my job that are Muslim. Yesterday was the first day of Ramadan, a very holy month for faithful Muslims. I myself do not believe in any deity or organized religion. However, I feel very strongly about the right to believe what one wants and that no one is wrong if they have found a spiritual path/belief that gives them a strong sense of faith and foundation for life. I would honestly fight to the death to defend any individuals right to believe in Jesus, Allah, Shiva, or even the Flying Spaghetti Monster.    Living in the south, my Muslim clients have never brought up the subject of beliefs unless I’ve asked for information from them.   I do not believe the work place is the correct venue for any of us to talk about such a personal subject (and my own non belief of anything often makes me a target of well meaning believers.)

I understand that the holy observation has something to do with when their prophet Muhammad was spoken to by Allah/ or an angel. Please forgive my ignorance if I have the reason for the fast wrong.   I know that Muslims observing Ramadan cannot eat or drink while the sun is up during the month. I am careful not to schedule any business lunches with my Islamic clients during this time and I have instructed my front desk staff to not offer anyone water during August. (It is very hot down here and I have my front ladies offer bottled water to everyone that walks in, post man, lost people..everyone! During August we’ve placed a sign by the cooler that says, “Just ask! We’ll be happy to get you a bottle of water!”)    I want to give anyone that would like refreshment from the southern summer weather, but I do not want to offer it to anyone that must say no. Most people that come into our building are repeat clients that are used to the water (or coffee/hot tea during the winter.), so the neon sign telling people to just ask seemed like a good option.

What I’d like to know is if it would be wrong for me to say “Ramadan Kareem!” to the clients that I know for sure are observing? I say “Merry Christmas” during December to my Christian clients, although I am not of their faith.   I would like to acknowledge my clients’ sacrifice of fasting for their beliefs, but I do not want to offend or appear to not respect the holiday.  Is there anyway for a non believer (of everything!) to quietly and politely show respect and knowledge of religions, especially in the work place?   0802-11

I’m confused as to how you can state a belief that discussions about religion are private and not appropriate for the work place and then violate your own beliefs by asking clients about their religious practices. It seems to me that your belief in the privacy of personal religious beliefs is the central tenant of a business policy towards clients. So, I’m not sure why you are taking the initiative to ask your clients about a private matter that probably has nothing whatsoever to do with the operation of your business.

Are you assuming that because they are Muslim that they practice certain rituals and celebrations? Just as with other religions, there are nominal, “secularized” or what I would call “cultural” Muslims. In the Mormon religion, these nominal believers would be referred to as “Jack Mormons”. In my own context, we use the phrase “cultural christian” (uncapitalized “c” is intentional) to describe someone claiming a religious affiliation but no evidence of actually practicing their religion. Not all Muslims may observe Ramadan. Even among devout Muslims, there are exemptions to who observes the Ramadan fast. So, I would caution you to be careful to not presume farther than the direct information available to you as given by each client. For example, there are Christian denominations that do not celebrate Christmas so wishing them a “Merry Christmas” might not be appropriate. (And btw, I believe it is gracious to acknowledge that people are well-intentioned and trying to be friendly when they offer holiday greetings that may not agree with one’s own religious beliefs. Just go with it and enjoy the sentiments behind the words.) So, wishing “Ramadan Kareem” to a client you know for a fact is observing Ramadan is a perfectly fine greeting.

In matters of courtesy, it is best to err on more rather than less courtesy, imo. But one can go way too far trying to not offend everyone. Not scheduling business lunch meetings with known Muslim clients is a kindness but again I caution you that trying to arrange your business interactions in such a way that your clients are never in a position to have to say “No” to honor their religious convictions may not be a realistic business model. For example, do you avoid restaurants that serve a killer bread basket with the meal so that your Jewish clients observing Passover are not tempted by the smell of warm, delicious leavened bread just begging to be slathered with butter? Are your business lunch restaurants Kosher? Do you see where I am going with this?

I think you should trust that your Muslim clients (and all the other religions) know how to navigate through a secular world in a way that honors their beliefs without compromising them and that they will be gracious in viewing your staff’s hospitality as a kindness even if they must decline the offer of beverages.

The Service Project Support Letter

March 28, 2011admin70 Comments

I have a bit of a debate in my head that’s been bothering me for a long while. The case being: Support letters.

If you haven’t grown up in the church and gone on a missions trip this will all be new. But here is the general idea… mission trips are expensive. REALLY expensive. And most of the trips that kids go on are not possible without help of parents, or other relatives helping out. This is not to say that kids in churches do nothing to raise their own money to go on these trips. Many do fund raising activities such as car washes, bake sales and yard sales to raise the money to travel to the country and the world in order to do service projects.

What bothers me, and has always bothered me, is the idea of “support letters.” I don’t know who started this idea but I absolutely HATE it. Whenever adults or teens are going on a trip, they are often encouraged to write a letter to everyone in our family and friend circle asking for ” support”. Usually it’s something like this:

Dear Auntie Marge,

I’m going to Africa this summer with my church. While I’m there, I’m going to do __________, __________, and ___________. This is such a tremendous opportunity and a real blessing.

I’d appreciate your prayers for me during this time. Also, if possible a donation for the trip would be lovely, as the price of airfare is really expensive…

Love, Jesse

Okay, perhaps not exactly like that, but very similar. Now is it just me or is that really money grubbing? I often wonder, usually when I’m opening letters from kids from my church, why they send them to ME seeing as we’re not close or really even friendly with one another. I also wonder, would the recipient really be satisfied JUST with prayer?

The other thing that really bothers me is that a lot of these kids go on the trip and NEVER send a thank you note. They receive our donation and best wishes and often we don’t get a thank you or even hear how the trip went. (It goes without saying that these kids are never sponsored by us ever again.)

When I was in high school I had the unique privilege to travel to Honduras. I’ll never forget the trip- it changed my life forever. But I’ll never forget everything that went on before hand. The original due dates for money had to be moved back because kids did not have their money in on time. They were frantically writing “The letters”.

I found this all amusing because instead of following my Pastor’s advice, I had refused to send out a single support letter, instead relying on my $6.50 an hour job at the ice cream store and cleaning jobs to pay my way. I worked at all the fundraisers, somehow finding time to balance in work, school and everything else. Since we had to sign up months beforehand, I barely spent money on pleasure items because I was saving for the trip. I was often amazed by how my fellow students had money for CDs and other goodies when I was cutting back. (Actually, I received a little abuse for my “tight fistedness”. I always had spending money growing up, however that stopped once I got my first job. My family is fairly well off, and I admit – unlike many kids I did not have to pay for my first car, or even gas money. However I still rode the bus to school and I only used the car to go to work, which was less than a 5 minute drive away.) Anyway, back to topic, Support Letters were both hoped for and expected from relatives and friends. And in my opinion, kids were far too dependent on them. They seemed to think they were entitled to the money, more so than it being a gift.

On the original day that the money was due, I walked into the pastor’s office and told him that I had the $3000 dollars and that I was prepared to pay him. The pastor was shocked. He asked me if I had received any help from anyone. I think he was concerned because I had been taking some college courses online during my senior year of high school and he didn’t want me to struggle paying for everything. But as I said before, my family is well off, and my parents were generous to me. They told me that paying for my classes was their contribution of helping me go to Honduras). I’d like to add I was the only one, out of 20 people, who worked and paid ENTIRELY their own way. And it took every penny I had. But so worth it.

Last year I went to Mexico, this time all by myself instead of with a church group. I told people I was going and although I never asked for money, some gave me money anyway. I had one couple who said they felt that God was asking them to give me 10 percent of their daily paycheck every two weeks the whole summer. You’d better believe that when I got back, every person who gave me money received a card and a letter with pictures telling them what I did in Mexico, what I used their money for and thanking them for being so kind.I also did a little presentation at the community center and made Mexican food and set up a slide projector to show pictures of what I did.

And if I may be so bold as to add… one lady from the community liked it so much she asked me to go to her church and do the same presentation and explain to the youth that this would be a beautiful thing for them to do when they come back from trips so that the community of people who had supported them could see what they had done during their time away. Unfortunately, the Pastor did not approve of the idea and it never came about. 0301-11

I share your twitchy perspective on letters from individual church members soliciting money to travel for service or missions projects. My squeamishness is based on two things:

1) Typically I barely know them and certainly have not had the privilege of being a prior recipient of their written social pleasantries such as Christmas cards, birthday cards, thank you notes, “how you doing?” or “get well” notes. Therefore solicitation of support letters are often the first written correspondence I’ve ever received from these persons and I find that a little presumptuous upon the meager social connection we do share. I’m not partial to people using God as their justification of financial presumption upon others. The moral of this is, if you couldn’t have been bothered to express yourself cordially and graciously among your acquaintances over the years, it’s probably not a good idea to presume they will happily receive a written solicitation for money.

2) I believe that if a person believes God wants him/her to go to XX and serve there, God will provide the means for that person to go without the need to beg for financial support among the family and friends. Often that “means” is a healthy constitution and time to work to achieve what you believe your goal is with a little sacrifice thrown in. My church sends out yearly service teams to an orphanage in Mexico for medical check ups, construction and repair projects, etc. and sponsors corporate church fundraising such as a huge yard sale, bake sales, car washes, etc to fund it. How much each service worker donates of his/her own time to help at these functions determines how much of the pool of collected money is allotted to them to fund their trip. No work, no money.

One clever way to raise funds was to solicit donation pledges from area businesses for every hour of work a person did at a local charity….in other words, a young person would work three or four hours a weekend volunteering at a local charity cleaning, stacking, organizing, etc and the money they would have earned per hour of work went into their fund for their service project travel. It’s a great bang for the buck, a double whammy of benefit both locally and globally and encourages the mindset that something worth having is worth working for.