Etiquette Hell

General Etiquette => Family and Children => Topic started by: asb8 on September 07, 2012, 04:37:15 PM

Title: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update pg. 9, 15, 20, 29
Post by: asb8 on September 07, 2012, 04:37:15 PM
Hello ehellions,

I'm placing this here, on behalf of a friend, because it really has more to do with family dynamics than a wedding. 

B/G:  I have a close friend that was born with her left arm truncating at the elbow.  Her parents did not raise her to believe that she was disabled in anyway and she goes about her life in the same mindset.  She is an outgoing, energetic and perfectly capable woman.  She's only person I know that can change a baby one-handed!

In short, while she has a prosthesis, she very rarely uses it as the effect is purely cosmetic.  Wearing the prosthesis the uncomfortable for her and actually limits her use of her left arm.  She freely admits that she cannot remember why she got the thing in the first place.

End B/G

My friend, Susan, has been asked to be a bridesmaid in her brothe Dave's upcoming wedding.  Dave is marrying Louise.  Louise and Susan are not particularly close but Susan has been subscribing to the theory that she loves her brother and while she and Louise do not have to be friends, they have to be respectful and civil.

Louise recently organized an outing to select bridemaids dresses.  Susan was unable to attend due to a work commitment.  Louise later emailed Susan picture of the dresses selected: a knee-length halter top for the other 3 bridemaids and a high-necked, long sleeved dress for Susan.  Louise explained that she was trying to make Susan's prosthesis look as natural as possible.

Susan was pretty shocked by the comment and as tactfully as possible explained that she was not planning to wear the prosthesis and that she would prefer the halter top dress.  Louise replied that Susan had to wear the prosthetic arm and the chosen dress, as the missing portion of Susan's arm makes Louise uncomfortable.  Furthermore, if Susan refused, then Louise would like her to not only resign from the bridal party but not attend the wedding!

Susan has no problem dropping out of the bridal party (at this point she doesn't want to do it any way) but is at a loss to explain to her family why she won't be at the wedding.  She doesn't want to cause a rift but she can't just refuse to attend without an explaination.  Dave, for the record, doesn't want to be put in the middle.

To complicate matters further, both sides of the family live locally, so Susan can't use distance/time/money to get out of attending.

Help!

Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: cabbagegirl28 on September 07, 2012, 04:43:06 PM
I would say the truth: "Louise doesn't want to look at me without my prosthesis, and I don't think she decides whether I wear it or not." That will probably cause uncomfortable feelings, but, imo, that's Louise's fault for being rude.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: QueenfaninCA on September 07, 2012, 04:43:54 PM
Furthermore, if Susan refused, then Louise would like her to not only resign from the bridal party but not attend the wedding!

Susan has no problem dropping out of the bridal party (at this point she doesn't want to do it any way) but is at a loss to explain to her family why she won't be at the wedding.  She doesn't want to cause a rift but she can't just refuse to attend without an explaination.  Dave, for the record, doesn't want to be put in the middle.

If the bride doesn't want me at the wedding, I'd stay home. I wouldn't broadcast my non-attendance or the reason for it, but if asked, I wouldn't lie. The person causing the rift is not Susan. So she shouldn't worry about that. And Dave doesn't really have a choice, because he already has been put in the middle. His soon-to-be wife did something offensive to his sister, so he has to take a side somehow.

Hoping everyone sees the bride as the shallow bridezilla she is.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: SuperMartianRobotGirl on September 07, 2012, 04:44:49 PM
Dave needs to get the heck in the middle. This shows a great deal about the character of the woman he intends to marry, and I hope his eyes are open. Disgraceful.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: Deetee on September 07, 2012, 04:46:23 PM
When someone behaves horribly it is not rude ( when asked) to let others know.
" I will be not be attending the wedding because Louise asked me not to unless I wore a prosthetic arm. I am not comfortable wearing the prosthetic so I prefer to not attend"
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: MyFamily on September 07, 2012, 04:46:50 PM
So I wrote out a reply, but QueenfaninCA and SuperMartianRobotGirl posted what I wanted to say already so I'm just going to agree with them.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: Jones on September 07, 2012, 04:47:44 PM
If the bride uninvited someone from a wedding for a shallow reason like aesthetics,  I fully support not going. When people ask, a matter of fact "I found out the bride was uncomfortable with my missing limb, and I would rather not stir up her discomfort on her day" would not, IMO be rude.

I see many people have replied already. I agree it is not rude to let people know when someone behaves horribly (but only when asked).
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: Tabby Uprising on September 07, 2012, 04:51:03 PM
Dave needs to get the heck in the middle. This shows a great deal about the character of the woman he intends to marry, and I hope his eyes are open. Disgraceful.

Absolutely this!  This isn't some minor squabble about wedding details.  His future wife does not want his sister to attend his wedding unless she wears a prosthetic limb.  That's when you get in the middle!  If he isn't willing to stand up for his own sister than he isn't much different from the woman he intends to marry.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: SleepyKitty on September 07, 2012, 04:53:23 PM
Furthermore, if Susan refused, then Louise would like her to not only resign from the bridal party but not attend the wedding!

Susan has no problem dropping out of the bridal party (at this point she doesn't want to do it any way) but is at a loss to explain to her family why she won't be at the wedding.  She doesn't want to cause a rift but she can't just refuse to attend without an explaination.  Dave, for the record, doesn't want to be put in the middle.

If the bride doesn't want me at the wedding, I'd stay home. I wouldn't broadcast my non-attendance or the reason for it, but if asked, I wouldn't lie. The person causing the rift is not Susan. So she shouldn't worry about that. And Dave doesn't really have a choice, because he already has been put in the middle. His soon-to-be wife did something offensive to his sister, so he has to take a side somehow.

Hoping everyone sees the bride as the shallow bridezilla she is.

You know, you're totally correct that the appropriate course of action would be to not attend, but also not broadcast what happened.

However, I don't know that I would have the moral willpower not to let everyone involved know exactly why my brother's future wife says that I am not welcome at the wedding. And also, that my brother was such a... *ahem* *repress adjectives that are not E-Hell worthy* *cough cough*...cowardly person that he would not immediately make plain to his future wife that excluding his sister for a reason this ridiculous will not be tolerated.

Dave saying he doesn't want to be put in the middle is Dave saying he cares so little about his sister that he can't be bothered to confront his wife. I know that I would refuse to attend a wedding that was conducted along these lines. This is just so outrageous that, wrong as it may be, I feel like I wouldn't wait to be asked about why I'm not attending.*

*Note that I don't mean calling up random acquaintances who are attending and telling them the story - but family, or very close friends? I wouldn't wait to be asked why I'm not going.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: wonderfullyanonymous on September 07, 2012, 05:01:51 PM
Wow, just wow...

I can only imagine what being married to Louise is going to be like. I can "hear" a lot of Susan can't come unless she wears her arm, and long sleeves, even if it's the middle of July and 100+ degrees outside.

Susan needs to approach Dave and thank him for all his support, now, and in the future.

I agree that she shouldn't broadcast it, but she shouldn't lie either, nor should she "just wear it and make everyone happy."

Maybe now would be a good time to "lose" it or "break" it.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: Cleargleam on September 07, 2012, 05:06:01 PM
Dave needs to get the heck in the middle. This shows a great deal about the character of the woman he intends to marry, and I hope his eyes are open. Disgraceful.

I completely agree. 
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: SamiHami on September 07, 2012, 05:06:25 PM
It doesn't speak very well of Dave that he didn't have a major come-to-deity chat with his little bridezilla to be. This is his sister that she's being so nasty to!

Quite frankly, I doubt that either of them are mature enough to be married.

I would absolutely not attend and I would not hesitate to tell anyone why. It's not Susan's job to protect this bridezilla from her own bad behavior; if there is any backlash, then it's what Louise earned.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: rose red on September 07, 2012, 05:13:56 PM
Dave does not want to be in the middle, but he's already chosen a side.  He's willing to let his sister miss his wedding.  I would not attend the wedding of these two people and will tell the real reason to those who ask.  There is no reason to protect people who treat you this way.

If the OP was asked to wear an ugly dress or a beehive hairdo, I would say to suck it up.  But this is not about appearance, it is about acceptance and she is not being accepted for who she is.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: mj on September 07, 2012, 05:15:10 PM
I would say the truth: "Louise doesn't want to look at me without my prosthesis, and I don't think she decides whether I wear it or not." That will probably cause uncomfortable feelings, but, imo, that's Louise's fault for being rude.

This, absolutely.

Additionally,  Louise when asked about Susan at the wedding may say Susan refused to come. Without explaining her order that Susan must wear a prosthetic in order to even attend the wedding at all. 
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: Slartibartfast on September 07, 2012, 05:18:03 PM
I don't see anything wrong with answering "Because the bride uninvited me.  She thinks my missing arm will ruin her wedding so she told me I have to stay home."  Someone ought to knock some sense into the bride (and the brother!).
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: Amara on September 07, 2012, 05:20:16 PM
How do the parents feel about this, OP? The demand by the bride is downright appalling (and much more) but it is the brother's attitude that especially stuns me. Does he think this is some sort of little "cat fight"?
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: Judah on September 07, 2012, 05:20:57 PM
I don't see anything wrong with answering "Because the bride uninvited me.  She thinks my missing arm will ruin her wedding so she told me I have to stay home."  Someone ought to knock some sense into the bride (and the brother!).

I don't see anything wrong either.  This situation would forever taint my relationship with both the brother and his prospective wife, even if they come to their senses and do the right thing before the wedding.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: lkdrymom on September 07, 2012, 05:22:52 PM
What do the parents of the groom think? I can't beleive they haven't gotten involved.  And yes if asked she should say exactly why she was uninvited.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: Jones on September 07, 2012, 05:28:52 PM
One more thing....if a rift in the family results from this, it is Louise's fault, NOT Susan's.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: WillyNilly on September 07, 2012, 05:30:00 PM
Susan has no problem dropping out of the bridal party (at this point she doesn't want to do it any way) but is at a loss to explain to her family why she won't be at the wedding.  She doesn't want to cause a rift but she can't just refuse to attend without an explaination.  Dave, for the record, doesn't want to be put in the middle.

Susan isn't "refusing to attend" Susan has been uninvited.  She doesn't need to explain her "refusal" because there wasn't one on her part.  She can explain her absence with a quick & easy "I was not invited."  Its not pot stirring, its the truth.

As for Dave, he is in the middle regardless of what he wants, as he is one of the people getting married.  Its not "Louise's wedding" its "Louise & Dave's wedding", and any and all invite matters are 100% equally on each of them.  When Louise uninvited his sister, and Dave said nothing, Dave effectually uninvited Susan just the same as if he'd said the words himself.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: jedikaiti on September 07, 2012, 05:32:21 PM
I don't see anything wrong with answering "Because the bride uninvited me.  She thinks my missing arm will ruin her wedding so she told me I have to stay home."  Someone ought to knock some sense into the bride (and the brother!).

I don't see anything wrong either.  This situation would forever taint my relationship with both the brother and his prospective wife, even if they come to their senses and do the right thing before the wedding.

I'm gonna third that. I know *I* wouldn't want anything to do with that wedding, as a guest or party member!
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: Outdoor Girl on September 07, 2012, 05:34:37 PM
I'd be talking directly to my brother.  'Bro, Louise is insisting that I wear my prosthesis or drop out of the wedding party AND not come to the wedding at all.  You know I hate that dang thing.  Bro, I love you but there is no way I'm wearing it for the day just to please Louise's sensibilities.  What's next?  I have to wear anytime I'm around her?  Not going to happen.  So here's the deal.  I'm perfectly happy to drop out of the wedding party but I really would prefer not to miss your wedding.  What do you suggest?'

Does Dave even know what Louise has told Susan?

ETA:  Oops.  I missed the part about Dave not wanting to be in the middle.  Dude, you need to be in the middle.  I'd still have the above conversation with my brother and make him tell me TO MY FACE that he is fine with me not coming to his wedding because his wife didn't want me to be there.

I'd be returning the gift I bought and reconsidering whether or not I wanted to have any relationship with my brother at all.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: TootsNYC on September 07, 2012, 05:35:03 PM
When someone behaves horribly it is not rude ( when asked) to let others know.
" I will be not be attending the wedding because Louise asked me not to unless I wore a prosthetic arm. I am not comfortable wearing the prosthetic so I prefer to she asked me to therefore not attend"


Tell the truth!!!



Susan isn't "refusing to attend" Susan has been uninvited.  She doesn't need to explain her "refusal" because there wasn't one on her part.  She can explain her absence with a quick & easy "I was not un-invited because I didn't want to wear the prosthesis for my arm, and Louise told me that it would make her too uncomfortable to see me without it."  Its not pot stirring, its the truth.

Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: Piratelvr1121 on September 07, 2012, 05:35:43 PM
Whoa...yeah, I'm sorry but Dave's not coming out of this smellin' any better than Louise here.  Not wanting to take any sides? Bucko, you already did by not immediately defending your sister from this-this---well ehell wouldn't approve anything I can think of to call her. WOW.

I'd seriously consider that Susan should tell her parents and see what they have to say...
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: AmysAuntie on September 07, 2012, 05:42:22 PM
Dave needs to grow a set.  I foresee some very awkward family holidays in the future.

My BIL is a little person.  Never in my wildest dreams would I have considered not inviting him to our wedding.  But then again, even if I had, there would not have BEEN a wedding--my hubby wouldn't have gone along with that for one second.  The most important thing to us was having our family (most of it was on his side) present.

Susan should answer honestly when her family asks why she is not attending the wedding.  It's pretty awful even without embellishments.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: yokozbornak on September 07, 2012, 05:47:16 PM
I don't see anything wrong with answering "Because the bride uninvited me.  She thinks my missing arm will ruin her wedding so she told me I have to stay home."  Someone ought to knock some sense into the bride (and the brother!).

This exactly!  Susan is not shaming the bride and groom, she's being honest and not protecting them from their own selfish, nasty behavior.  I think people deserve to know what kind of people Dave and Louise are, and if it gets uncomfortable for them, then they have only themselves to blame.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: Tabby Uprising on September 07, 2012, 05:56:16 PM
I don't see anything wrong with answering "Because the bride uninvited me.  She thinks my missing arm will ruin her wedding so she told me I have to stay home."  Someone ought to knock some sense into the bride (and the brother!).

This exactly!  Susan is not shaming the bride and groom, she's being honest and not protecting them from their own selfish, nasty behavior.  I think people deserve to know what kind of people Dave and Louise are, and if it gets uncomfortable for them, then they have only themselves to blame.

Again, I couldn't agree more!

Is Susan close to her family?  Are they typically supportive of her?  It's unfathomable to me that (provided they were aware of the situation) her family wouldn't come to her defense.  I think it's almost unconscionable of them not to.

Anyway, if Susan ends up not attending she, of course, can send a gift to the happy couple.  Since she doesn't use the prosthetic arm, she can package it up with a card saying "since you seem so fond of it, may it find a new happy home with you".
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: Missyb on September 07, 2012, 05:58:33 PM
Dave has already chosen a side.   :(

I think Susan should be honest without being emotional when telling people why she has been uninvited.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: kherbert05 on September 07, 2012, 06:18:03 PM
Background for me - My grandfather lost his eye and arm in WWII. He came home help raise 10 kids (5 born after his return), worked for customs even thought Canadian Armed services considered him 100% disabled, built a little league baseball field in his back yard and hosted games for years, built a hockey rink in his back yard every winter, was active in his community. I know how my family would have reacted to someone like this. 


Dave should have immediately informed Louise that due to her treatment of his sister no-one absolutely no-one from his side of the aisle would be attending. He hoped that her family and friends would have a good time.


Barring that only Dave should attend from his side - everyone who knows Susan should boycott the wedding. There is nothing wrong or rude with Susan telling everyone the truth.


Rude would be getting an advocacy group to protest the wedding. It would be a good day dream, though.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: MissNomer on September 07, 2012, 06:29:23 PM
Anyway, if Susan ends up not attending she, of course, can send a gift to the happy couple.  Since she doesn't use the prosthetic arm, she can package it up with a card saying "since you seem so fond of it, may it find a new happy home with you".

I just wanted to say that this, while probably a bit much, is one of the funniest things I've ever read.

Not much advice, I'm pretty much in agreement with everyone. What chutzpah! (on the bride's part, obviously)
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: JenJay on September 07, 2012, 06:38:40 PM
I am disgusted with Dave!! I think Susan should compose a brief email to her parents and siblings (especially Dave!) stating that she has been uninvited to the wedding, she doesn't want to start drama, but it's very important that her immediate family know she didn't decline attending. I wouldn't say anything to anyone else unless asked, then it'd be "I wasn't invited and I'd prefer not to discuss it, please."

Edited to add -
I'm not necessarily disagreeing with PPs who aid they'd "out" Louise, I'm just not sure I would, so I'd start off discreet and see how it went. If I heard ANY rumor that I wasn't there for any other reason I'd sure as heck straighten it out with the truth!
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: EMuir on September 07, 2012, 06:40:52 PM
Karma is a real fun thing sometimes.  If I were that bride I'd be really careful around machinery.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: Lorelei_Evil on September 07, 2012, 06:42:00 PM
I am disgusted with Dave!! I think Susan should compose a brief email to her parents and siblings (especially Dave!) stating that she has been uninvited to the wedding, she doesn't want to start drama, but it's very important that her immediate family know she didn't decline attending. I wouldn't say anything to anyone else unless asked, then it'd be "I wasn't invited and I'd prefer not to discuss it, please."

I agree with this.  Don't meet drama with more drama.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: CrazyDaffodilLady on September 07, 2012, 06:46:14 PM
Susan should not feel that she has to cover up the BTB's horrific behavior.  BTB thinks her demand is acceptable, so why would she mind the truth being told?

Susan might want to suggest to her brother than he update the "in sickness and in health" part of the wedding vows to include disfigurement. 
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: Iris on September 07, 2012, 06:48:53 PM
Susan has no problem dropping out of the bridal party (at this point she doesn't want to do it any way) but is at a loss to explain to her family why she won't be at the wedding.  She doesn't want to cause a rift but she can't just refuse to attend without an explaination.  Dave, for the record, doesn't want to be put in the middle.

Susan isn't "refusing to attend" Susan has been uninvited.  She doesn't need to explain her "refusal" because there wasn't one on her part.  She can explain her absence with a quick & easy "I was not invited."  Its not pot stirring, its the truth.

As for Dave, he is in the middle regardless of what he wants, as he is one of the people getting married.  Its not "Louise's wedding" its "Louise & Dave's wedding", and any and all invite matters are 100% equally on each of them.  When Louise uninvited his sister, and Dave said nothing, Dave effectually uninvited Susan just the same as if he'd said the words himself.

This. My brother is as non-confrontational a person as has ever existed, and even he would have managed a "You can't do that" had his bride uninvited me to their wedding. Louise is a piece of work and Dave, in my opinion, is a *cowardly* piece of work which is a thousand times worse.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: Sharnita on September 07, 2012, 07:36:09 PM
Quite frankly I think Dave's offense is the worst.  As shallow as the bride is she doesn't have any really strong ties to Susan.  Dave is her brother and has been accustomed to her arm their whole lives. At least we know he and Louise deserve each other. 
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: MrTango on September 07, 2012, 07:55:55 PM
I think Susan should be proactive in telling her parents.

"Louise has uninvited me to the wedding due to my prosthesis, and Dave has chosen to side with her.  Therefore, I will not be attending the wedding."
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: artk2002 on September 07, 2012, 08:15:39 PM
Dave, for the record, doesn't want to be put in the middle.

Dave, for the record, is being a jerk and needs to step in now. If his future wife can't learn to accept his sister as she is, then he's going to face a nasty rift in his family.

I think Susan should be honest with anyone and everyone who asks.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: Dr. F. on September 07, 2012, 08:40:05 PM
I don't know that I have much to add, except that I've never been more anxious to disbelieve a post on EHell. Alas, I don't really, but I really, REALLY wish I did. Wouldn't it be lovely to think this was a troll?

Unfortunately, I don't think it is. Susan is better off without her brother and the woman he has apparently decided to marry. I can't IMAGINE their parents' feelings if they know what's going on. I almost (but not quite) would wish they wouldn't find out until too late. The distress will have to be intense.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: Winterlight on September 07, 2012, 08:41:20 PM
OK, if my fiance disinvited my sibling because they didn't like looking at a disability, they wouldn't need to worry about the wedding because I'd be returning the ring. Dave is a spineless wimp. Sounds like they deserve each other.

And if it were my kids, I'd be declining to attend. I know that's a nuclear option, but given the circumstances I'd be supporting the insulted party.

Louise and Dave have enough gall to be divided into three parts.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: AnnaJ on September 07, 2012, 08:47:10 PM
Susan needs to talk to her brother, her parents, and any other close relatives and air this now.  Why?  Because if the bride succeeds in booting sis from attending the wedding without any repercussions, she will not stop there.

Dinner with the in-laws?  "Ooooh, honey, you know I can't stand seeing your sister's arm...make sure she isn't invited."

Attending a relative's birthday party?  "Sorry, unless Susan is wearing her arm I can't possibly be cheerful."

Bro and SIL have a kid?  "Sorry, we can't let you near little Morris, seeing your arm would traumatize him.  And by the way, you won't be attending any family holiday celebrations with us there either."
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: Chickadee on September 07, 2012, 08:53:20 PM

Dave should have immediately informed Louise that due to her treatment of his sister no-one absolutely no-one from his side of the aisle would be attending. He hoped that her family and friends would have a good time.


Barring that only Dave should attend from his side - everyone who knows Susan should boycott the wedding. There is nothing wrong or rude with Susan telling everyone the truth.


Rude would be getting an advocacy group to protest the wedding. It would be a good day dream, though.

If Dave has any sense at all, he should boycott the wedding!

And Dr F echoed my thoughts. I want so badly to believe this post is not true.... but I think it is the utterly horrific truth.  :'(
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: GraceSullivan on September 07, 2012, 08:56:55 PM
Posting for updates and to agree with everyone who has said that Susan should be proactive about communicating her un-invite to the wedding and why.

I can't imagine that there can be any coming back from this for the relationship between Susan and her future SIL (since it looks like Dave is a, well, can't say that here on eHell...).  Same for her relationship with Dave.  I would lose a lot of my respect for my brother in this situation.

Susan's parents should know why she no longer going to the wedding, the real non-sugar coated reason.  I would be very curious to know their reaction.

{okay, seriously, why does it do that to the word 'rela-tion-ship?'}
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: gmatoy on September 07, 2012, 09:02:08 PM
So I wrote out a reply, but QueenfaninCA and SuperMartianRobotGirl posted what I wanted to say already so I'm just going to agree with them.



Ditto!
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: hyzenthlay on September 07, 2012, 09:09:00 PM
I can kind of sympathize with not wanting her in the bridle party if Louise has some kind of hang up. Some people do and not much to be done about it. (I mean I don't understand it myself, but it's also a hang-up I have heard of.) On the other hand, if Louise was planning on forcing her into a different dress she should NEVER have agreed to have her in the bridal party to begin with.

But not wanting her at the wedding indicates a hang up so severe that  future relations are going to be non-existent. And since that is likely to be the case I think Susan is wise to answer frankly and honestly if anyone asks her. Otherwise she's stuck fending off the same questions for years to come.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: snowdragon on September 07, 2012, 09:43:06 PM
Dave Shouldn't be in the middle - there should be no middle to be in.
Lousie is a jerk, who really needs to get over herself.
Susan is better off with out the either one of them and if my brothers were treating me this way, I'd be giving the cut direct.

Susan should just tell everyone what was said and done, just so the rest of the family has a heads up for when this happens to them I do not believe these outrageous demands will end here.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: Danika on September 07, 2012, 09:50:47 PM
I agree that Louise should have never invited Susan into the bridal party in the first place, if she felt this way. And I really don't understand Louise's motivation for uninviting Susan from the wedding entirely. Does she hope that will push Susan into staying in the wedding party and wearing the prosthetic limb? Is it supposed to be coercion? Or did she and Susan have a really heated discussion about this and so Louise just doesn't like Susan anyway and is using it as an excuse, like a "My way or the highway" just to get Susan out of her life once and for all?

I can't understand someone who thinks like Louise, but she is clearly revealing her true character before the wedding. If Dave doesn't see the red flags now, he's complicit with her meanness and his wails of "woe is me. I married someone who is awful" will fall on deaf ears in 10 years.

My question is what would you all do as guests if you heard about this situation? Even if I knew Susan to be honest, I would have to hear Louise's side. Would it be out of line to try to contact Louise and hear her side? It wouldn't be my business, as a guest. But, I'd want to know all the facts before I boycotted a wedding and cut off a friendship/relationship with Louise and Dave. I wouldn't want to attend and support their union if it were true. On the other hand, I wouldn't want to rush to judgment and boycott the wedding only to find out later that I had overreacted and that there was more to the story. I believe the OP. I'm not doubting Susan's words. I'm just saying that as a guest, I wouldn't know everything going on, and would only hear bits and pieces. How would I be firm in my decision to boycott unless I knew more.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: Piratelvr1121 on September 07, 2012, 09:55:53 PM
I see where you're coming from, as even PP's have said they want to believe this is a troll, and that a human being couldn't be so awful as Louise. So I think that perhaps a neutral guest might have a similar reaction of not wanting to believe this, especially if they are a guest of Louise and had only seen a fake side of her that seemed nice. 
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: WillyNilly on September 07, 2012, 10:02:49 PM
I wonder what the other bridesmaids think. Surely they realise Louise picked two dresses, one for them and a different one for Susan.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: Sharnita on September 07, 2012, 10:03:23 PM
I think I get what you are saying.  I mean it is such an outrageous request that it seems almost impossible to accept that anybody would ask that of another human being.

As a guest I think it might depend how I knew everyone.  If I knew Susan/Dave's family and was close to them then I might contact the parents and ask what was going on.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: Danika on September 07, 2012, 10:12:42 PM
I should really stop trying to get into Louise's head and trying to understand what she's thinking, but let's look at it from a logical perspective. Having one BM wear a different dress from the others will stick out far more in pictures than having them all wear the same dress and one of them missing part of a limb. If that were such an issue, Louise could have warned the photographer ahead of time and said "squish all the people together so that we only see one of their shoulders facing the camera" and left it at that. I think Louise is purposely being rude and hurtful towards Susan for some reason and using the limb as a red herring. But I'm trying to be logical and I'm probably giving her far too much credit by assuming that she's logical too.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: Winterlight on September 07, 2012, 10:18:00 PM
{okay, seriously, why does it do that to the word 'rela-tion-ship?'}

Otherwise we get some pretty obnoxious ads.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: Marbles on September 07, 2012, 11:04:33 PM
Louise sounds like she has been rather sheltered from people who are physically different. That's pretty common. I can see her taking some time to adjust to that difference in Susan. Louise is entitled to that time; it's hard making a mental shift.

She is not entitled to make her problem Susan's problem. If Louise was uncomfortable having Susan in her wedding party without her prosthesis, then she should not have asked her to be in it. Uninviting her from the wedding for it is over the top intollerant. For shame.

My MOH had nearly the same birth defect. Although I didn't care about hiding her (lack of) arm, she has a habit of hiding it behind people or flowers or whatnot in photos. Old habits from a rough childhood (kids are mean) are hard to break. I suspect that Louise would have been surprised at how little she saw Susan's arm had she kept her in the bridal party.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: Hawkwatcher on September 07, 2012, 11:20:40 PM
Dave needs to get the heck in the middle. This shows a great deal about the character of the woman he intends to marry, and I hope his eyes are open. Disgraceful.

Absolutely this!  This isn't some minor squabble about wedding details.  His future wife does not want his sister to attend his wedding unless she wears a prosthetic limb.  That's when you get in the middle!  If he isn't willing to stand up for his own sister than he isn't much different from the woman he intends to marry.

I agree.  By "refusing to get in the middle," Dave is making it sound like both sides are equally responsible for this situation.  That is clearly not the case. 

Considering the outrageous nature of this request, Susan should feel free to explain why she is not attending the wedding.   She has no obligation to protect the HC from the natural consequences of their behavior. 

As a guest, I would not want to attend a wedding for people this shallow.  If I was close to the groom, I might ask him how he thinks his bride would respond if he suffered from a disfiguring accident.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: VorFemme on September 07, 2012, 11:25:12 PM
Louise is a big green Bridezilla breathing flame at her future SIL.

The kindest thing that I can think of saying about Dave is that he is a spineless wimp who won't stand up for his sister. 

I am wondering what Louise will do if one of HER children should happen to be born the spitting image of Aunt Susan?  With or without one arm...because I've seen a lot of families where a child looks more like an aunt or uncle than their parent.  I'm told that I take after my great-grandmothers more than my parents.  Since the photos of my great-grandmothers are black & white and were taken in their late fifties & early sixties (if they lived long enough to have any photos taken of them after WWII) - I don't see it yet.....
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: Lynnv on September 07, 2012, 11:44:25 PM
I would really, really, really like to disbelieve this post.  Unfortunately I have seen too many people like Louise in my life.  My sister has rather extensive facial scarring from a childhood accident and the things that some people, admittedly not a very high percentage, will say and do when they meet her the first time is appalling.

In this case, I agree with the majority.  I would not attend the wedding.  And I would not keep it a secret as to why. 

And if I found out about this as another guest, I would also not attend.  No matter how rude it might be, I would cancel even if I had already responded that I would be in attendance.   Dave might see a middle that he doesn't want to be in.  I don't.  There is no middle here, and I would be willing to take the hit and be rude by cancelling my RSVP because I would be so far on Susan's side.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: JoyinVirginia on September 08, 2012, 12:03:15 AM
Susan needs to talk to her brother, her parents, and any other close relatives and air this now.  Why?  Because if the bride succeeds in booting sis from attending the wedding without any repercussions, she will not stop there.

Dinner with the in-laws?  "Ooooh, honey, you know I can't stand seeing your sister's arm...make sure she isn't invited."

Attending a relative's birthday party?  "Sorry, unless Susan is wearing her arm I can't possibly be cheerful."

Bro and SIL have a kid?  "Sorry, we can't let you near little Morris, seeing your arm would traumatize him.  And by the way, you won't be attending any family holiday celebrations with us there either."
I agree with this! Susan needs to ask her brother to think about how he will handle the next time his bride has a request like this. Maybe she will forbid relatives over 60 from attending because their wrinkles depress her.
Also, the brides parents are technically the hosts, unless the bride and groom are paying for everything. Susan needs to express her regrets to them. If my daughter did something outrageous like this, and would not apologize, I would cancel the wedding and have a blow out party with MY friends instead. (assuming reception its paid for). (not kidding, my dd is getting married in march and I would do that).
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: BarensMom on September 08, 2012, 12:05:09 AM
If this happened to a member of my family, I would boycott and encourage other family members to boycott the wedding and wouldn't hesitate to tell the bride and groom exactly why this is not okay.

If this is what I think it is, it happens almost always in girls and there may be a genetic component involved.  So Louise better think twice about having daughters with Dave.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: Diane AKA Traska on September 08, 2012, 12:08:19 AM
Someone needs to pose the following question to Dave:

Suppose Susan were born with a condition that affects her face instead of her arm.  Would you be all right with Louise demanding that she wear a mask to cover her face?  Because that's the equivalent of what she's asking... she saying that Susan can't be herself, that she has to wear something to mask her appearance.  Why is that all right?

EvilTraska wants to add "Then Susan needs to hold the prosthetic left arm in her right hand and use it to slap Louise good."
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: AppleBlossom on September 08, 2012, 12:18:01 AM
I would say the truth: "Louise doesn't want to look at me without my prosthesis, and I don't think she decides whether I wear it or not." That will probably cause uncomfortable feelings, but, imo, that's Louise's fault for being rude.

This, absolutely.

Additionally,  Louise when asked about Susan at the wedding may say Susan refused to come. Without explaining her order that Susan must wear a prosthetic in order to even attend the wedding at all.

I agree with this. If Susan tries to avoid drama by not telling people the real reason, it gives Louise an open field to lie and get even get sympathy about her "mean" sister-in-law. Once Louise has gotten the first word in, anything Susan says as an explanation may sound made-up.

My question is what would you all do as guests if you heard about this situation? Even if I knew Susan to be honest, I would have to hear Louise's side. Would it be out of line to try to contact Louise and hear her side? It wouldn't be my business, as a guest. But, I'd want to know all the facts before I boycotted a wedding and cut off a friendship/relationship with Louise and Dave. I wouldn't want to attend and support their union if it were true. On the other hand, I wouldn't want to rush to judgment and boycott the wedding only to find out later that I had overreacted and that there was more to the story. I believe the OP. I'm not doubting Susan's words. I'm just saying that as a guest, I wouldn't know everything going on, and would only hear bits and pieces. How would I be firm in my decision to boycott unless I knew more.

As a guest, I would cancel, but I'd simply say it was no longer possible for me to attend. I wouldn't mention it was because of this issue. If Susan and Louise later become friends, as they may if they become related, it would put any guests who cancelled because of this in an awkward position.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: sammycat on September 08, 2012, 12:23:53 AM
Dave and Louise sound like disgusting people, who are made for each other.

I'm firmly in the camp that says Susan should tell people why she was uninvited.  I don't see a single reason for sheltering Dave and Louise from any fall out as a result of their actions (or inaction, in Dave's case).
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: PastryGoddess on September 08, 2012, 12:36:09 AM
Louise thinks that Susan is less because she is missing parts of her body.  That sort of condescension will spill into their relationship from now on. If Susan caves now, it will give Louise an undeserved victory that will dictate their future relationship.

People like Louise get away with this behavior because the people they terrorize are too afraid to say anything or don't want to make waves.  Susan should absolutely tell people why she is not attending.  Susan was UN-invited from her brothers wedding because she refused to wear her prosthetic arm to appease the sensibilities of her FSIL.  This is not opinion, or conjecture, or telling tales.  It is fact.

Dave is lower than a snake's belly, and the whole "not wanting to get in the middle schtick" is BS.  He is in the middle and will continue to be in the middle for the rest of his marriage to Louise.  And if Louise gets her way with the wedding, you can be sure that it will start to trickle down to the rest of their interactions.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: cicero on September 08, 2012, 03:59:51 AM
i am just planting my POD here along with every one else.

I am sorry that your friend is going through this. The sad thing is that no matter *what* she does or says, this has and will cause a family rift - not that it's her fault! but she was put into a very awkward situation by her future SIL.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: RingTailedLemur on September 08, 2012, 04:02:18 AM
Something that really winds me up is people blatantly choosing a side, but saying they haven't.

Louise's behaviour is appalling, Dave's is just as bad.

Poor Susan.  I'd tell the truth about why I wasn't going either...  Or I would promise to wear the prosthesis and then accidentally-on-purpose forget to bring it.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: Bethalize on September 08, 2012, 04:26:46 AM
Furthermore, if Susan refused, then Louise would like her to not only resign from the bridal party but not attend the wedding!

I do not believe that we should lie or cover up for people who behave badly. Susan should be open about both what Louise and Dave have said. To remain polite Susan can refrain from discussing her feelings or commenting upon the behaviour, but the actual facts should be out there for everyone to see.

Susan should start by telling her parents. Then give it a couple of days to see if there is any development. If the parents have no power to influence Dave then this is the way things are going to be and everyone needs to get used to the fact that Louise finds Susan revolting because of what she looks like. This needs to be out in the open because it can't be taken back and it will colour family interactions forever.

I am used to people being uncomfortable with those who look different, but to actually come out and say you're so disgusting I don't want to look at you? Unacceptable!

Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: kherbert05 on September 08, 2012, 06:36:00 AM
Someone needs to pose the following question to Dave:

Suppose Susan were born with a condition that affects her face instead of her arm.  Would you be all right with Louise demanding that she wear a mask to cover her face?  Because that's the equivalent of what she's asking... she saying that Susan can't be herself, that she has to wear something to mask her appearance.  Why is that all right?

EvilTraska wants to add "Then Susan needs to hold the prosthetic left arm in her right hand and use it to slap Louise good."
Actually what he really should think about is - What if his child is born with the same birth defect - how many different ways will that woman abused the child.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: Oh Joy on September 08, 2012, 06:55:57 AM
It sounds like the exchange between Susan and Louise was by e-mail.  I'm glad Susan has it in writing so she knows she didn't somehow misinterpret or make up Louise's request.  I think it would be appropriate for Susan to tell close family members 'I would have loved to be there, but I'm only invited with my prosthetic and I don't wear it anymore.'

As far as Dave is concerned, I'm not ready to condemn him yet.  Rather, I feel sympathy for him.  He's asked a woman he loves to spend the rest of his life with him, and as the plans swirl around him he's seeing poor treatment of his sister by his bride.  I expect he doesn't know what to do in the long- or short-term...of course he doesn't want to be in the middle.  I hope he makes the right decision, but - as many of us have experienced in our own lives and read in each others' posts - it's not unusual to start with a nonconfrontational position in uncomfortable circumstances.

Edited because I can't spell before my morning tea.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: Piratelvr1121 on September 08, 2012, 08:16:02 AM
Considering that Susan's parents have raised her to believe she is not disabled and treated her as normally as anyone else, I can not see this going down well if she tells them.  Which is exactly why I think she needs to tell her parents.   It may not turn out to be terribly pretty but imo, Louise should not be sheltered from the consequences of being such a...a... well feel free to mentally fill in the blank with your own non-ehell approved word.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: AngelBarchild on September 08, 2012, 08:22:05 AM
When did it become etiquette accepted to tell everyone when someone did something mean to you and try to get them to hat the person as well? Trying to get everyone to cancel, essentially ruining the bride and groom's wedding is not proper etiquette, it's revenge plane and simple. Hurt feelings should be addressed to the bride and groom, these people are adults, they don't need to go running to their parents.
As for the husband to be, he is being asked to pick sides between his soon to be wife and his sister. He can not win, no matter who's side he picks. As my husband would put it, there is a bullet in every chamber.

The sister should not attend the wedding, and if asked why she was not there respond with "The bride and I had a falling out, it's a private family matter" and end it there.

What happened to dignity and grace?
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: Cami on September 08, 2012, 08:24:54 AM

As for the husband to be, he is being asked to pick sides between his soon to be wife and his sister. He can not win, no matter who's side he picks. As my husband would put it, there is a bullet in every chamber.


The way he's really going to lose is by tying himself to a person like Louise. That's his choice and therefore he's the one who has loaded the gun.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: still in va on September 08, 2012, 08:27:14 AM
When did it become etiquette accepted to tell everyone when someone did something mean to you and try to get them to hat the person as well? Trying to get everyone to cancel, essentially ruining the bride and groom's wedding is not proper etiquette, it's revenge plane and simple. Hurt feelings should be addressed to the bride and groom, these people are adults, they don't need to go running to their parents.
As for the husband to be, he is being asked to pick sides between his soon to be wife and his sister. He can not win, no matter who's side he picks. As my husband would put it, there is a bullet in every chamber.

The sister should not attend the wedding, and if asked why she was not there respond with "The bride and I had a falling out, it's a private family matter" and end it there.

What happened to dignity and grace?

i might not be broadcasting it to all and sundry, but i would certainly be telling my parents.  if my DIL had made such an outrageous request of my daughter before her wedding, i would definitely have wanted to know.

surely you're not advocating that Susan tell absolutely no one?  i can certainly agree with your statement to a certain extent, but if it is a private family matter, i do believe that the family should be informed.  how much of the family would be up to the parents, i think.  as in, aunts/uncles, grandparents, etc.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: steelstress on September 08, 2012, 08:28:17 AM
What happened to dignity and grace?

 ::)Oh my gosh.... the bride chose to forgo it.

this is one of those times where etiquette takes a back seat.  You don't let someone get away with this kind of treatment.  This needs to come back and bite the bride in the behind.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: bloo on September 08, 2012, 08:30:36 AM

As for the husband to be, he is being asked to pick sides between his soon to be wife and his sister. He can not win, no matter who's side he picks. As my husband would put it, there is a bullet in every chamber.


The way he's really going to lose is by tying himself to a person like Louise. That's his choice and therefore he's the one who has loaded the gun.

Correct, Cami.

Angel, I disagree that the groom 'cannot win'. I believe he can. He now has information on his fiance's character (no doubt he's seen evidence before this) that a loving, thinking man would use in determining to continue the engagement and get married. He cannot complain in ten years on what a witch his wife is to his family should he decide to marry her.

If he decides to delay the engagement or end it (this is 'end-worthy') then he wins. He keeps the respect of his family and his fiance has time to reform or he can be free to find a woman of better character.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: Piratelvr1121 on September 08, 2012, 08:33:25 AM
What happened to dignity and grace?

 ::)Oh my gosh.... the bride chose to forgo it.

this is one of those times where etiquette takes a back seat.  You don't let someone get away with this kind of treatment.  This needs to come back and bite the bride in the behind.

POD to infinity.  In refusing to treat Susan with dignity and grace, Louise essentially took the gloves off.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: Sharnita on September 08, 2012, 08:33:47 AM
If this were a one time issue I would agree.  But it they have a baby to christen in a few years she won't have an arm that her SIL finds picture perfect. Same for other family events. If she continues to seem like she is the one choosing to absent herself then the family will think she has rejected the new wife. I think the nature of the situation demands an explanation to others who will be there for the long haul.  There is no need to petition one way or the other for action on their part but it is not automatically rude if their understanding of the situation causes them to take action either.

For example, if I were another bridesmaid who found out what was being asked and what was going on I would opt out.  I could not promise that I would not break a leg/arm/etc or injure myself in some visible way that the bride found unacceptable and the knowledge that the bride wouldn't want me there if I looked unacceptable would be a deal breaker for me.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: exitzero on September 08, 2012, 08:42:20 AM
This goes deeper than etiquette. This is Susan's very BEING that she is objecting too.

In my eyes, this is not the sign of rude person, this is the sign of cruel person who should be shunned by polite society.

I would have no trouble telling people what the bride did.

If I was an invited guest, I would give my regrets. I do not associate with cruel people.

Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: AngelBarchild on September 08, 2012, 08:47:29 AM
When did it become etiquette accepted to tell everyone when someone did something mean to you and try to get them to hat the person as well? Trying to get everyone to cancel, essentially ruining the bride and groom's wedding is not proper etiquette, it's revenge plane and simple. Hurt feelings should be addressed to the bride and groom, these people are adults, they don't need to go running to their parents.
As for the husband to be, he is being asked to pick sides between his soon to be wife and his sister. He can not win, no matter who's side he picks. As my husband would put it, there is a bullet in every chamber.

The sister should not attend the wedding, and if asked why she was not there respond with "The bride and I had a falling out, it's a private family matter" and end it there.

What happened to dignity and grace?

i might not be broadcasting it to all and sundry, but i would certainly be telling my parents.  if my DIL had made such an outrageous request of my daughter before her wedding, i would definitely have wanted to know.

surely you're not advocating that Susan tell absolutely no one?  i can certainly agree with your statement to a certain extent, but if it is a private family matter, i do believe that the family should be informed.  how much of the family would be up to the parents, i think.  as in, aunts/uncles, grandparents, etc.

I don not understand why the parents or grand parents need to be involved in a matter between grown women. If the sister wanted to confide in a parent or a grand parent about how best for her to handle the situation that's one thing, but the suggestions to inform everyone the bride is a horrible person, and try to make them hate her as well. I believe mass emails were suggested.

If my sister in law was horrible to me, I would bring it up with her, or maybe my brother. I can not see how it helps anything to inform my parents and grandparents that I am having personal problems with my sister in law. They don't need to know, it's not there business. Should the bride go to her parents and grand parent and tell them how (in her view) the sister is being horrible to her? Private matters should be dealt with between the parties involved.

When someone does something mean to you, the proper way to deal with it is to deal with them, not try to destroy them in the eyes of the rest of the world. That's retaliation, nothing more.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: rose red on September 08, 2012, 08:52:45 AM
^ Do you think the parents and grandparents won't ask why she wasn't at the wedding?  Should she make up some pretty lie?  Even saying "it's personal between us" will not cut it for parents.  No, she shouldn't whine the bride is horrible, but she should tell the honest truth.

eta: telling the plain truth is not retaliation.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: still in va on September 08, 2012, 08:57:57 AM
When did it become etiquette accepted to tell everyone when someone did something mean to you and try to get them to hat the person as well? Trying to get everyone to cancel, essentially ruining the bride and groom's wedding is not proper etiquette, it's revenge plane and simple. Hurt feelings should be addressed to the bride and groom, these people are adults, they don't need to go running to their parents.
As for the husband to be, he is being asked to pick sides between his soon to be wife and his sister. He can not win, no matter who's side he picks. As my husband would put it, there is a bullet in every chamber.

The sister should not attend the wedding, and if asked why she was not there respond with "The bride and I had a falling out, it's a private family matter" and end it there.

What happened to dignity and grace?

i might not be broadcasting it to all and sundry, but i would certainly be telling my parents.  if my DIL had made such an outrageous request of my daughter before her wedding, i would definitely have wanted to know.

surely you're not advocating that Susan tell absolutely no one?  i can certainly agree with your statement to a certain extent, but if it is a private family matter, i do believe that the family should be informed.  how much of the family would be up to the parents, i think.  as in, aunts/uncles, grandparents, etc.

I don not understand why the parents or grand parents need to be involved in a matter between grown women. If the sister wanted to confide in a parent or a grand parent about how best for her to handle the situation that's one thing, but the suggestions to inform everyone the bride is a horrible person, and try to make them hate her as well. I believe mass emails were suggested.

If my sister in law was horrible to me, I would bring it up with her, or maybe my brother. I can not see how it helps anything to inform my parents and grandparents that I am having personal problems with my sister in law. They don't need to know, it's not there business. Should the bride go to her parents and grand parent and tell them how (in her view) the sister is being horrible to her? Private matters should be dealt with between the parties involved.

When someone does something mean to you, the proper way to deal with it is to deal with them, not try to destroy them in the eyes of the rest of the world. That's retaliation, nothing more.

i can't control what other posters suggest here.  i already stated that i would not be telling everyone invited in an attempt to get them to boycott the wedding.  but yes, i would be telling my own family.  and as the mother of married children, i would have expected to have been informed of such a thing.

there is absolutely no reason for Susan to be seen as the bad guy in her family (as so eloquently posted previously), for not attending her brother's wedding.  i'd not put it past Louise to reply, mournfully, when asked where her new SIL was during the festivities, "i don't know, she just refused to attend her own brother's wedding.  i don't think she likes me."  now Louise is the poor little victim, Susan the evil witch trying to hurt her brother, and that goes forward for the rest of their lives.  nope, sorry, not in this case.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: Otterpop on September 08, 2012, 09:10:04 AM
Louise is cruel.  Being silent about this is to give her a pass to make up any lie she wants.  No doubt,  Susan will be made out to be the villain for not attending her brother's wedding.

When discrimination, exclusion and family division are at stake, silence is the wrong way to go.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: Girlie on September 08, 2012, 09:14:01 AM
Yes, I vote that this breaks etiquette AND proves a serious lack of character, heart, and kindness.

OP's friend should tell everyone why she has been uninvited. If not, then I foresee this developing into a lifelong pattern that will leave those nearest and dearest to her confused and possibly hurt about why she no longer attends birthday dinners, holiday celebrations, and other family functions. Susan has done nothing wrong, and should not feel guilty for nicely saying, "Louise says she feels uncomfortable around my arm and doesn't like seeing me without it. So she doesn't want me to be a bridesmaid and has rescinded my invitation to the wedding."

What Louise needs is a good shunning from polite society. Her cruel behavior should not be rewarded.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: Diane AKA Traska on September 08, 2012, 09:14:58 AM
Bigotry should never be rewarded by silent complicity.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: SuperMartianRobotGirl on September 08, 2012, 09:15:19 AM
When did it become etiquette accepted to tell everyone when someone did something mean to you and try to get them to hat the person as well? Trying to get everyone to cancel, essentially ruining the bride and groom's wedding is not proper etiquette, it's revenge plane and simple. Hurt feelings should be addressed to the bride and groom, these people are adults, they don't need to go running to their parents.
As for the husband to be, he is being asked to pick sides between his soon to be wife and his sister. He can not win, no matter who's side he picks. As my husband would put it, there is a bullet in every chamber.

The sister should not attend the wedding, and if asked why she was not there respond with "The bride and I had a falling out, it's a private family matter" and end it there.

What happened to dignity and grace?

i might not be broadcasting it to all and sundry, but i would certainly be telling my parents.  if my DIL had made such an outrageous request of my daughter before her wedding, i would definitely have wanted to know.

surely you're not advocating that Susan tell absolutely no one?  i can certainly agree with your statement to a certain extent, but if it is a private family matter, i do believe that the family should be informed.  how much of the family would be up to the parents, i think.  as in, aunts/uncles, grandparents, etc.

I don not understand why the parents or grand parents need to be involved in a matter between grown women. If the sister wanted to confide in a parent or a grand parent about how best for her to handle the situation that's one thing, but the suggestions to inform everyone the bride is a horrible person, and try to make them hate her as well. I believe mass emails were suggested.

If my sister in law was horrible to me, I would bring it up with her, or maybe my brother. I can not see how it helps anything to inform my parents and grandparents that I am having personal problems with my sister in law. They don't need to know, it's not there business. Should the bride go to her parents and grand parent and tell them how (in her view) the sister is being horrible to her? Private matters should be dealt with between the parties involved.

When someone does something mean to you, the proper way to deal with it is to deal with them, not try to destroy them in the eyes of the rest of the world. That's retaliation, nothing more.

If you're a bully and horrifyingly mean, you don't get to count on the person you bully being quiet and not making a fuss.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: ShanghaiJill on September 08, 2012, 09:21:00 AM
He's marrying the wrong person.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: SleepyKitty on September 08, 2012, 09:21:42 AM
Louise is cruel.  The be silent about this is to give her a pass to make up any lie she wants.  No doubt,  Susan will be made out to be the villain for not attending her brother's wedding.

When discrimination, exclusion and family division are at stake, silence is the wrong way to go.

Exactly. Beautifully put. Rudeness is one thing, and it should not be gossiped about and spread about in an attempt to make others hate the rude person. We have all been rude, either intentionally or unintentionally, and we strive to move beyond it. Part of that means handling rudeness with grace and dignity, as said above.

This is not rudeness. This is blatant discrimination against  someone who was born handicapped (even though it is clear Susan is fully capable!). I do not stay quiet about the Big issues - racism, sexism, and discrimination against others. To stay quiet about such things is to implicitly support them. They have no part of our society today, and as members of that society we have a responsibility to help eradicate them. This does not mean I think Susan should be calling up everyone on the guest list and saying "That B@&$(!!!" But, if I was invited to this wedding, I would refuse to attend as a guest because of this issue. I will not silently support this type of discrimination.

To apply this sort of body shaming behaviour to anyone, but especially those who are physically handicapped, is disgusting.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: Tabby Uprising on September 08, 2012, 09:22:30 AM
When did it become etiquette accepted to tell everyone when someone did something mean to you and try to get them to hat the person as well? Trying to get everyone to cancel, essentially ruining the bride and groom's wedding is not proper etiquette, it's revenge plane and simple. Hurt feelings should be addressed to the bride and groom, these people are adults, they don't need to go running to their parents.
As for the husband to be, he is being asked to pick sides between his soon to be wife and his sister. He can not win, no matter who's side he picks. As my husband would put it, there is a bullet in every chamber.

The sister should not attend the wedding, and if asked why she was not there respond with "The bride and I had a falling out, it's a private family matter" and end it there.

What happened to dignity and grace?

i might not be broadcasting it to all and sundry, but i would certainly be telling my parents.  if my DIL had made such an outrageous request of my daughter before her wedding, i would definitely have wanted to know.

surely you're not advocating that Susan tell absolutely no one?  i can certainly agree with your statement to a certain extent, but if it is a private family matter, i do believe that the family should be informed.  how much of the family would be up to the parents, i think.  as in, aunts/uncles, grandparents, etc.

I don not understand why the parents or grand parents need to be involved in a matter between grown women. If the sister wanted to confide in a parent or a grand parent about how best for her to handle the situation that's one thing, but the suggestions to inform everyone the bride is a horrible person, and try to make them hate her as well. I believe mass emails were suggested.

If my sister in law was horrible to me, I would bring it up with her, or maybe my brother. I can not see how it helps anything to inform my parents and grandparents that I am having personal problems with my sister in law. They don't need to know, it's not there business. Should the bride go to her parents and grand parent and tell them how (in her view) the sister is being horrible to her? Private matters should be dealt with between the parties involved.

When someone does something mean to you, the proper way to deal with it is to deal with them, not try to destroy them in the eyes of the rest of the world. That's retaliation, nothing more.

If you're a bully and horrifyingly mean, you don't get to count on the person you bully being quiet and not making a fuss.

Exactly this.  And I agree with the previous posters as well that this is a form of bigotry, is cruel and goes beyond normal meanness.  It's no different than telling someone "Hey, I think your skin color is yucky. Fix that or stay out of my wedding"  I can not imagine how this can be construed as merely an "issue" between grown women and the parents should be left out of the conversation.  It's a family issue.  A huge one.  Even pushing that all aside, it's unrealistic to think Susan could be absent from her brothers wedding and her parents would accept a vague answer as an excuse. 
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: rose red on September 08, 2012, 09:23:28 AM
If you're a bully and horrifyingly mean, you don't get to count on the person you bully being quiet and not making a fuss.

Bully is a good word.  Bullies from the playground on up get away with it because victims don't want to make waves because that's not "polite." 

Many groups have rights now because they refuse to keep silent.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: SPuck on September 08, 2012, 09:32:28 AM
When did it become etiquette accepted to tell everyone when someone did something mean to you and try to get them to hat the person as well? Trying to get everyone to cancel, essentially ruining the bride and groom's wedding is not proper etiquette, it's revenge plane and simple. Hurt feelings should be addressed to the bride and groom, these people are adults, they don't need to go running to their parents.
As for the husband to be, he is being asked to pick sides between his soon to be wife and his sister. He can not win, no matter who's side he picks. As my husband would put it, there is a bullet in every chamber.

The sister should not attend the wedding, and if asked why she was not there respond with "The bride and I had a falling out, it's a private family matter" and end it there.

What happened to dignity and grace?

There is dignity and grace, but it already went out the window when the bride was that cruel to her future sister in law. People are allowed to have there opinions. People can be as racist and sexist as they want. What they cannot do is expect to escape the negative reactions and consequences when the decide to make their opinions public the words or deeds.

The shallow bride did both in this situation. She could have easily kept the FSIL out of the wedding. Since both families are local I wouldn't be surprised if most of the wedding guests were aware aware of the groom's sister situation. She would not have been any major distractions.

Instead now the bride gets to reap the social situation she has sown.

Bigotry should never be rewarded by silent complicity.

POD!
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: Redsoil on September 08, 2012, 09:33:21 AM
Bigotry should never be rewarded by silent complicity.

I'm with Traska and other who had similar sentiments on this one. 

It's not "etiquette" to maintain silence on an issue of blatant discrimmination and cruelty.  There's no need to go to the papers with it, but close family members need to know that the bride has expressed such sentiments and has not only rescinded her request for the person concerned to be part of the bridal party, but has banned her from coming to the wedding if she doesn't "cover up" because her arm offends the bride.

Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: camlan on September 08, 2012, 09:36:08 AM
I don't see how Susan can not attend her brother's wedding without explaining to her parents exactly why she isn't going. We had another thread recently where a brother was contemplating not attending his brother's wedding and a lot of the advice centered on what message not attending a sibling's major life event would send to the rest of the family, and to the groom.

And once Susan has told one or two people, it's going to be very, very difficult to keep this a secret. A sister not attending her brother's wedding? People are going to ask questions. A sister suddenly not a member of the wedding party? People are going to ask questions. And even worse, if no explanation is given, people are going to gossip and speculate and come up with their own ideas about what happened.

And it is an issue that needs to be dealt with. It's not just about the wedding, as PPs have mentioned. It's about every single family gathering from now on.

Susan is a person. She is not decoration. Her looks don't matter. Treating her like a human being matters.

I cannot imagine the pain that the bride's demands have caused. To go from the joy of being in your brother's wedding party and celebrating with him, to discovering that your FSIL cannot stand the sight of you--that's soul crushing.

As for whether or not someone would do something like this, yes, they can and they do. My nephew uses a power wheelchair because he has a spinal cord injury and cannot walk. He's been like this since birth. When his cousin got married, she wanted Nephew to be the ring bearer, because she knew that he would take the responsibility seriously and she wouldn't have to worry about the rings. She also wanted his younger brother and sister to be "flower people."

The mother of the groom was very, very upset about the 9 year old kid in a wheelchair. It would look so strange to have a wheelchair come down the aisle. People would talk. What would the pictures look like? She was not happy to learn he would be in the pictures even if he was not part of the wedding party. Did he even have to be invited to the wedding? Couldn't he stay home with his home nurse?

Fortunately, the bride and groom were in agreement on the matter. They listened to the MOG. Then they told her she was welcome to attend the wedding or not, as she choose, but Nephew was the ring bearer.

The MOG spent the reception "apologizing" to the guests for her new DIL's choice of attendants (she never came right out and said "the crippled kid" the way she did before the wedding). Most of the guests were just confused by what she said.

Nephew spent the reception dancing with every single girl there and some of the married ones, and charming quite a few guests out of their serving of wedding cake.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: MorgnsGrl on September 08, 2012, 09:40:00 AM
This whole situation makes me feel ill.

If I were Susan, I would sit down with my brother and lay it all on the table. "Look, I get that my physical difference makes Louise uncomfortable, and I get that you love her, but her making a proclamation that I can only attend the wedding if I wear my prosthetic is going to create a huge rift in our family. It's not my responsibility to change my physical appearance to make her more comfortable. The thought of not attending your wedding breaks my heart. You need to have a discussion with her and make this right." If he was unwilling to do this, or if his attempt was unsuccessful, then I'd have to take further steps, which would probably next be talking to my parents so THEY could have a serious discussion with the couple.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: snowdragon on September 08, 2012, 09:41:52 AM
Why should Susan have protect the bride? Or her brother for that matter? Why is she not worthy of having the support of her family as she goes through a hurtful situation?  Dave and his bride want their family's support,  why should Susan be denied that?
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: YummyMummy66 on September 08, 2012, 09:51:50 AM
I have to wonder if Dave and Louise ever have chilldren and that child is not perfect, what is Louise going to do then?

Has Dave even thought of that situation?

If not, I think he needs to have this put into his head now and really do think about this. 

Like others have stated, Susan should most definitly tell her parents about the situation, because I am sure in the coming weeks, they are going to notice Susan's demeanor and why she is not excited about the upcoming wedding. I don't think she should hide this from anyone.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: DistantStar on September 08, 2012, 09:56:56 AM
Some people have no shame.  I didn't marry a man once because his parents disapproved and said they'd boycott the wedding and why they didn't exactly say why, I'm a little person, and I remain convinced to this day that was why.  (They lived out of state, we drove up for a visit, the second we got home he called to tell them were were home and things got ugly.)  Talk about a painful way to find out somebody you want to marry is a little too attached to his parents -- he's the one who called it off after a long nasty phone call from them about it!

Susan needs to give her brother a dose of reality -- this is how the woman you want to marry is going to treat her?  Forget it!  She should not keep this a secret, and this is not a one-time thing, this will happen every time there's a family get-together.  This woman is poison.

Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: Calypso on September 08, 2012, 10:00:01 AM
AngelB, I'm a private person and would usually side with "let the two grown women handle it between them." But, although I am certain Louise doesn't get this (I don't suspect her of ulterior  motives here, just poor character), this isn't just between Louise and Susan---this is a "community" matter.

Suppose this was a racial bias---suppose Susan was the groom's half sister or step sister or something, and not the same color as the rest of the groom's family. Were Louise to try to exclude Susan from the bridal party or the wedding in that case (oh! but the pictures just won't. look. right!), I think other people need to know that this is who Louise is. Not in a "oh, isn't Louise a terrible person" way but ---- I don't know, I just know *I* would want to be aware of this before I came to Louise's wedding. It would affect how I regard my relationship with her.

I truly think Louise has no idea how unacceptable her thinking is. I hope very much this can be a wake up call for her, and she's able to learn. If not, and bro does still marry her, I agree with PPs who say he deserves what he gets (ugh).
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: PeterM on September 08, 2012, 10:12:08 AM
When did it become etiquette accepted to tell everyone when someone did something mean to you and try to get them to hat the person as well? Trying to get everyone to cancel, essentially ruining the bride and groom's wedding is not proper etiquette, it's revenge plane and simple.

I agree with this. Susan shouldn't go out of her way to try and influence anyone's thinking or actions in response to Louise's snub. I don't think, however, that she should make any effort to keep the truth of the matter secret. And that includes vague "We had a falling out" replies when people ask. And people are definitely going to ask. When they do, Susan should give them the facts in her best "Joe Friday" monotone. "Louise has asked me not to attend because I don't wish to hide the fact that I'm missing half an arm." Let everyone she tells make their own decisions on how to react to that information, without any prodding from Susan.

Frankly, I have absolutely no problem believing that Louise will be happy to spread lies about why Susan is not attending, so I don't see this as a situation where playing coy and refusing to give details will do anything but let Louise control the version of the truth that gets disseminated. Grace and dignity do not require anyone to let someone spread lies about them.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: LeveeWoman on September 08, 2012, 10:15:14 AM
What will happen when the couple have children? Will they tell Dave's sister to either wear the prosthetic arm or stay away from their kids?

Maybe Dave needs an intervention.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: camlan on September 08, 2012, 10:17:59 AM
When did it become etiquette accepted to tell everyone when someone did something mean to you and try to get them to hat the person as well? Trying to get everyone to cancel, essentially ruining the bride and groom's wedding is not proper etiquette, it's revenge plane and simple.

I agree with this. Susan shouldn't go out of her way to try and influence anyone's thinking or actions in response to Louise's snub. I don't think, however, that she should make any effort to keep the truth of the matter secret. And that includes vague "We had a falling out" replies when people ask. And people are definitely going to ask. When they do, Susan should give them the facts in her best "Joe Friday" monotone. "Louise has asked me not to attend because I don't wish to hide the fact that I'm missing half an arm." Let everyone she tells make their own decisions on how to react to that information, without any prodding from Susan.

Frankly, I have absolutely no problem believing that Louise will be happy to spread lies about why Susan is not attending, so I don't see this as a situation where playing coy and refusing to give details will do anything but let Louise control the version of the truth that gets disseminated. Grace and dignity do not require anyone to let someone spread lies about them.

Agree 100%.

The second Louise realizes that her demands for Susan's attendance at the wedding will not be well-received by most people, Louise will go into damage-control mode. And given her track record, I don't think she'd have any problem throwing Susan under the bus.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: Sharnita on September 08, 2012, 10:20:46 AM
Like I said, I might very well drop out if I was in the WP.  Of course, I don't know that my pus sized self would be in the WP to begin with, or what kind of shaping undergarments might be assigned to me to wear.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: Outdoor Girl on September 08, 2012, 10:25:19 AM
Susan can absolutely still handle this situation with grace and dignity while still letting people know exactly what kind of person Louise is.  She doesn't have to bad mouth Louise at all; she just has to present the facts.

First, she needs to talk to her parents.  'Mom, Dad, I wanted to let you know that Louise has asked me to step down from the wedding party and has asked me to not attend the wedding at all because I refuse to wear my prothesis.  What do you suggest I do?'  Because, in my mind, Susan still has a choice here.  She can still go to the wedding if she wants to and Louise will just have to deal.  It isn't as nuclear an option as Susan's parents withdrawing from the wedding, which is likely to happen.

Susan won't have to say another word to anyone; her parents are likely to spread the word to close family and friends, if a frank discussion with Dave doesn't bear any fruit.

If I was invited to this wedding and heard about this, proper etiquette be damned.  I'd be rescinding my RSVP and returning the wedding gift I'd purchased.  There is no way in hell I'd ever support this marriage.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: AngelBarchild on September 08, 2012, 10:44:08 AM
I am not suggesting that the sister stay silent, I am suggesting that she deal with her sister in law, possible her brother. I was taught that when adults have a personal conflict, then the adults involved that deal with it, they don't drag the rest of the family into it, or try to make people hate the other person. Would it be acceptable for the bride to go to her family and tell them how horrible (she feels) the sister is being? No one in this situation is a child, their parents do not need to be involved.
It is not giving in to deal with private problems privately. She should go right up to her sister in law and tell her exactly what she thinks of the situation, and tell her brother as if needs be (he is directly involved in the situation). If she feels her sister in law is being a bigot then she should tell her so. Then the three of them (I'm including the brother) can try to work out their problems, or go their separate if all else fails.

The sister is not being abused, or bullied. In one instance, her sister in law was terribly mean to her.
Without background, pattern of behavior, or any other information what so ever, the bride had been dubbed a bully and the sum of all evils. It has been suggested that the sister attempt to ruin her brothers wedding by convincing everyone not to show up, send mass emails telling everyone what a horrible person the bride is, and attempt have her publicly shunned. Can people really say this is not retaliation?

I have seen on this board, that people can terrible hang ups over things that I find to be ridiculous. Everyone has them, (including me) especially to things that have never been part of their reality. These things take time to adjust to. Sometimes people say terrible mean heartless things, and until the person that was hurt points them out they don't realize just how bad it is. Maybe they will have a moment of clarity, maybe they will just go on being a horrible person, the only way to find out is for person they hurt to tell them just how appalling their behavior was.
If you were judged only by your worst moment would you come out smelling like a rose?

Dignity and grace are do not go away when someone else is crass or nasty, that is when they are needed the most.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: camlan on September 08, 2012, 10:58:30 AM
I am not suggesting that the sister stay silent, I am suggesting that she deal with her sister in law, possible her brother. I was taught that when adults have a personal conflict, then the adults involved that deal with it, they don't drag the rest of the family into it, or try to make people hate the other person. Would it be acceptable for the bride to go to her family and tell them how horrible (she feels) the sister is being? No one in this situation is a child, their parents do not need to be involved.
It is not giving in to deal with private problems privately. She should go right up to her sister in law and tell her exactly what she thinks of the situation, and tell her brother as if needs be (he is directly involved in the situation). If she feels her sister in law is being a bigot then she should tell her so. Then the three of them (I'm including the brother) can try to work out their problems, or go their separate if all else fails.

The sister is not being abused, or bullied. In one instance, her sister in law was terribly mean to her.
Without background, pattern of behavior, or any other information what so ever, the bride had been dubbed a bully and the sum of all evils. It has been suggested that the sister attempt to ruin her brothers wedding by convincing everyone not to show up, send mass emails telling everyone what a horrible person the bride is, and attempt have her publicly shunned. Can people really say this is not retaliation?

I have seen on this board, that people can terrible hang ups over things that I find to be ridiculous. Everyone has them, (including me) especially to things that have never been part of their reality. These things take time to adjust to. Sometimes people say terrible mean heartless things, and until the person that was hurt points them out they don't realize just how bad it is. Maybe they will have a moment of clarity, maybe they will just go on being a horrible person, the only way to find out is for person they hurt to tell them just how appalling their behavior was.
If you were judged only by your worst moment would you come out smelling like a rose?

Dignity and grace are do not go away when someone else is crass or nasty, that is when they are needed the most.

I agree with you about dignity and grace. And I don't think Susan should go around trying to get people to boycott the wedding.

But how, exactly, can she explain to her parents why she is not attending her brother's wedding? I don't think she should lie and say there's been a "falling out."

To go from being a member of the wedding party to not being invited at all--that's pretty big. And I suspect that the parents on both sides are going to want to know why.

And I don't think Susan should lie or cover up the facts in any way. The chances are high that Susan will be excluded from other events hosted by her brother and FSIL. Should Susan have to cover up for her SIL again and again?

I'd suggest that Susan refer all questioners to her FSIL for answers, but sadly, I'm not sure Louise can be trusted to respond with the truth.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: Bethalize on September 08, 2012, 11:05:44 AM
I am not suggesting that the sister stay silent, I am suggesting that she deal with her sister in law, possible her brother. I was taught that when adults have a personal conflict, then the adults involved that deal with it, they don't drag the rest of the family into it, or try to make people hate the other person.
[SNIP]

The sister is not being abused, or bullied. In one instance, her sister in law was terribly mean to her.

This is not a personal conflict. A personal conflict is when the bride wants the bridesmaid to wear a strapless dress and the bridesmaid is worried about her flabby upper arms being on display. This is a case of one person dehumanising another.

When did it become etiquette accepted to tell everyone when someone did something mean to you and try to get them to hat the person as well?

Those are two different points. In polite Society when one transgresses in public one used to be censured in public. So it was definitely etiquette to shun people for bad behaviour by the time Queen Victoria was on the throne. Then it was divorce and theft. Now it's treating anyone different as a less-than-human being.

No one is trying to get other people to hate anyone. That's childish. Saying what has happened so people can make up their own minds is quite enough.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: Garden Goblin on September 08, 2012, 11:10:21 AM
All that has ever been needed for rudeness to triumph is for polite people to do nothing.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: SuperMartianRobotGirl on September 08, 2012, 11:13:32 AM

The sister is not being abused, or bullied. In one instance, her sister in law was terribly mean to her.
Without background, pattern of behavior, or any other information what so ever, the bride had been dubbed a bully and the sum of all evils. It has been suggested that the sister attempt to ruin her brothers wedding by convincing everyone not to show up, send mass emails telling everyone what a horrible person the bride is, and attempt have her publicly shunned. Can people really say this is not retaliation?

"You have to pretend you don't have a disability or I will kick you out of your brother's wedding and everyone will wonder why you didn't go" is bullying. I suspect the bride's story for why the sister wasn't there would also be.

She doesn't get a world where no one calls her out for this. Politeness doesn't mean you don't acknowledge when you've been wronged - it just tells how to do it.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: Shopaholic on September 08, 2012, 11:15:50 AM
I didn't get that the whole exchange between Susan and Louise was by email.
If it was, I think Susan should forward it to her parents. She should let them know *in person* or on the phone, not by email, how hurt her feelings were and tell them that she feels unwanted and unwelcome in her brother's life, and therefore she and her family would not be attending the wedding, or any other celebration in her brother's life from then on.

Dave is a jerk, this is grounds for the Cut Direct and I am NOT a big fan of that.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: Otterpop on September 08, 2012, 11:26:51 AM
This is definitely a bullying situation.  It's exactly "you do what I want or be excluded."  The fact that this is an important family celebration and Susan can't change her disability makes it even more horrendous.  The bride's behavior should not be covered up by "polite discretion."  Parents need to be notified and involved.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: Gail on September 08, 2012, 11:34:34 AM
Posting for updates.

Oh, and I hope the groom's parents get forwarded with the email and intervene. This a family problem, not just a problem between two adult women.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: DistantStar on September 08, 2012, 11:59:12 AM
How is this not a bullying situation?  Honest question.  I can't see it as anything else.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: JenJay on September 08, 2012, 12:01:00 PM
I am not suggesting that the sister stay silent, I am suggesting that she deal with her sister in law, possible her brother. I was taught that when adults have a personal conflict, then the adults involved that deal with it, they don't drag the rest of the family into it, or try to make people hate the other person. Would it be acceptable for the bride to go to her family and tell them how horrible (she feels) the sister is being? No one in this situation is a child, their parents do not need to be involved.
It is not giving in to deal with private problems privately. She should go right up to her sister in law and tell her exactly what she thinks of the situation, and tell her brother as if needs be (he is directly involved in the situation). If she feels her sister in law is being a bigot then she should tell her so. Then the three of them (I'm including the brother) can try to work out their problems, or go their separate if all else fails.

The sister is not being abused, or bullied. In one instance, her sister in law was terribly mean to her.
Without background, pattern of behavior, or any other information what so ever, the bride had been dubbed a bully and the sum of all evils. It has been suggested that the sister attempt to ruin her brothers wedding by convincing everyone not to show up, send mass emails telling everyone what a horrible person the bride is, and attempt have her publicly shunned. Can people really say this is not retaliation?

I have seen on this board, that people can terrible hang ups over things that I find to be ridiculous. Everyone has them, (including me) especially to things that have never been part of their reality. These things take time to adjust to. Sometimes people say terrible mean heartless things, and until the person that was hurt points them out they don't realize just how bad it is. Maybe they will have a moment of clarity, maybe they will just go on being a horrible person, the only way to find out is for person they hurt to tell them just how appalling their behavior was.
If you were judged only by your worst moment would you come out smelling like a rose?

Dignity and grace are do not go away when someone else is crass or nasty, that is when they are needed the most.

I agree with you about dignity and grace. And I don't think Susan should go around trying to get people to boycott the wedding.

But how, exactly, can she explain to her parents why she is not attending her brother's wedding? I don't think she should lie and say there's been a "falling out."

To go from being a member of the wedding party to not being invited at all--that's pretty big. And I suspect that the parents on both sides are going to want to know why.

And I don't think Susan should lie or cover up the facts in any way. The chances are high that Susan will be excluded from other events hosted by her brother and FSIL. Should Susan have to cover up for her SIL again and again?

I'd suggest that Susan refer all questioners to her FSIL for answers, but sadly, I'm not sure Louise can be trusted to respond with the truth.

The first thing I would do is contact my bother and say "Just so we're clear, you and Louise don't want me at your wedding, even as a guest, if I don't wear my prosthetic and cover it with a long sleeve. Is that correct?" just in case Louise is doing this behind his back.

Next I'd let my parents and siblings know up front that I'd been uninvited. Something short and to the point like "I want to give you all a heads-up that I will not be at the wedding. I've heard from David and Louise and they don't want me there. This is very hard for me, and I don't want to contribute to more drama, but I thought it best if you all knew ahead of time so you'd be prepared for my absence." Inevitably someone (most likely everyone) will ask her why, and that's a tough one. I could sit here as a poster on an etiquette board and say she should reply that it'd be best to ask David, but honestly if these were my parents and siblings I'd probably say "Apparently they don't want me there unless I wear the prosthesis AND cover it with long sleeves. I've declined to do that, so, they told me not to come."

With acquaintances who noticed I wasn't there and asked about it later I'd say I wasn't invited and "You'll have to ask David and Louise." if they wanted to know why. I wouldn't run around "outting" them, but I absolutely would not allow anyone to float rumors that I'd behaved in an inappropriate way, refused to come, etc. so if anyone approached me and said "I heard you weren't there because X.", yes I would clear it up. There's nothing wrong with saying "Actually they asked me not to come because I choose not to wear a prosthetic arm." No way would i cover for them!
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: weeblewobble on September 08, 2012, 12:03:38 PM
I think David needs to seriously consider whether Louise is someone he wants to marry.  What happens if he and this woman have a child with special needs?  Will she decide this child doesn't exist?

I don't see how Susan could NOT tell her parents what is happening in this situation.  They need to know what's going on so they're not blind-sided by her non-attendance.  It can be done in a non-drama queen manner.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: Tabby Uprising on September 08, 2012, 12:14:11 PM
I am not suggesting that the sister stay silent, I am suggesting that she deal with her sister in law, possible her brother. I was taught that when adults have a personal conflict, then the adults involved that deal with it, they don't drag the rest of the family into it, or try to make people hate the other person. Would it be acceptable for the bride to go to her family and tell them how horrible (she feels) the sister is being? No one in this situation is a child, their parents do not need to be involved.
It is not giving in to deal with private problems privately. She should go right up to her sister in law and tell her exactly what she thinks of the situation, and tell her brother as if needs be (he is directly involved in the situation). If she feels her sister in law is being a bigot then she should tell her so. Then the three of them (I'm including the brother) can try to work out their problems, or go their separate if all else fails.

The sister is not being abused, or bullied. In one instance, her sister in law was terribly mean to her.
Without background, pattern of behavior, or any other information what so ever, the bride had been dubbed a bully and the sum of all evils. It has been suggested that the sister attempt to ruin her brothers wedding by convincing everyone not to show up, send mass emails telling everyone what a horrible person the bride is, and attempt have her publicly shunned. Can people really say this is not retaliation?

I have seen on this board, that people can terrible hang ups over things that I find to be ridiculous. Everyone has them, (including me) especially to things that have never been part of their reality. These things take time to adjust to. Sometimes people say terrible mean heartless things, and until the person that was hurt points them out they don't realize just how bad it is. Maybe they will have a moment of clarity, maybe they will just go on being a horrible person, the only way to find out is for person they hurt to tell them just how appalling their behavior was.
If you were judged only by your worst moment would you come out smelling like a rose?

Dignity and grace are do not go away when someone else is crass or nasty, that is when they are needed the most.

I agree with you about dignity and grace. And I don't think Susan should go around trying to get people to boycott the wedding.

But how, exactly, can she explain to her parents why she is not attending her brother's wedding? I don't think she should lie and say there's been a "falling out."

To go from being a member of the wedding party to not being invited at all--that's pretty big. And I suspect that the parents on both sides are going to want to know why.

And I don't think Susan should lie or cover up the facts in any way. The chances are high that Susan will be excluded from other events hosted by her brother and FSIL. Should Susan have to cover up for her SIL again and again?

I'd suggest that Susan refer all questioners to her FSIL for answers, but sadly, I'm not sure Louise can be trusted to respond with the truth.

The first thing I would do is contact my bother and say "Just so we're clear, you and Louise don't want me at your wedding, even as a guest, if I don't wear my prosthetic and cover it with a long sleeve. Is that correct?" just in case Louise is doing this behind his back.

Next I'd let my parents and siblings know up front that I'd been uninvited. Something short and to the point like "I want to give you all a heads-up that I will not be at the wedding. I've heard from David and Louise and they don't want me there. This is very hard for me, and I don't want to contribute to more drama, but I thought it best if you all knew ahead of time so you'd be prepared for my absence." Inevitably someone (most likely everyone) will ask her why, and that's a tough one. I could sit here as a poster on an etiquette board and say she should reply that it'd be best to ask David, but honestly if these were my parents and siblings I'd probably say "Apparently they don't want me there unless I wear the prosthesis AND cover it with long sleeves. I've declined to do that, so, they told me not to come."

With acquaintances who noticed I wasn't there and asked about it later I'd say I wasn't invited and "You'll have to ask David and Louise." if they wanted to know why. I wouldn't run around "outting" them, but I absolutely would not allow anyone to float rumors that I'd behaved in an inappropriate way, refused to come, etc. so if anyone approached me and said "I heard you weren't there because X.", yes I would clear it up. There's nothing wrong with saying "Actually they asked me not to come because I choose not to wear a prosthetic arm." No way would i cover for them!

JenJay, I really like the wording you used especially because it highlights both Louise AND Dave made the decision.  Like some of us have posted, if Dave isn't outright defending his sister, he is just as complicit in this decision as Louise. 

What about this approach? If Dave "doesn't want to get in the middle of things", can Susan leverage that herself?  "Dave, I won't be in the wedding party, but I will be at your wedding without the prosthesis, okay?" That will either force him to make a decision or... if he waffles Susan can attend the wedding as a guest sans prosthesis. What's Louise going to do at the wedding? 

That's only if Susan would still want to go and if Dave doesn't outright side with his fiance.  If he doesn't tell Susan she can't come, I don't think Louise has the final say on the issue.  Does that make sense?  It's a wedding for both Dave and Louise after all. Can Louise disinvite a guest of Dave's for any reason?
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: AngelBarchild on September 08, 2012, 12:21:21 PM
How is this not a bullying situation?  Honest question.  I can't see it as anything else.

Because there is no pattern of behavior. It is not bullying be nasty or mean to someone in a one time incident. If it was, everyone on the planet would be a bully, because everyone has done something awful to another person at some point. If everyone is a bully then the term loses all meaning.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: Elfmama on September 08, 2012, 12:23:58 PM

Anyway, if Susan ends up not attending she, of course, can send a gift to the happy couple.  Since she doesn't use the prosthetic arm, she can package it up with a card saying "since you seem so fond of it, may it find a new happy home with you".
(http://www3.telus.net/smile/images/rofl-k2.gif)
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: Tabby Uprising on September 08, 2012, 12:28:40 PM
How is this not a bullying situation?  Honest question.  I can't see it as anything else.

Because there is no pattern of behavior. It is not bullying be nasty or mean to someone in a one time incident. If it was, everyone on the planet would be a bully, because everyone has done something awful to another person at some point. If everyone is a bully then the term loses all meaning.

From my perspective, it doesn't really change the situation any if we decide Louise's actions do or do not fit the definition of a bully.  She has acted atrociously.  Label it what we will, her actions are inexcusable. 

Additionally, I certainly feel that some things are so awful that a one-time only infraction is just as bad (if not worse) than a pattern of other behavior. 
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: Otterpop on September 08, 2012, 12:36:11 PM
How is this not a bullying situation?  Honest question.  I can't see it as anything else.

Because there is no pattern of behavior. It is not bullying be nasty or mean to someone in a one time incident. If it was, everyone on the planet would be a bully, because everyone has done something awful to another person at some point. If everyone is a bully then the term loses all meaning.

From my perspective, it doesn't really change the situation any if we decide Louise's actions do or do not fit the definition of a bully.  She has acted atrociously.  Label it what we will, her actions are inexcusable. 

Additionally, I certainly feel that some things are so awful that a one-time only infraction is just as bad (if not worse) than a pattern of other behavior.

POD.  Eloquently stated.  Whatever label, bride's behavior is not acceptable even once and should be corrected, not acquiesced to.

OP, does Susan have a good relationship with her brother?  I can't understand why he doesn't object to his sister being excluded.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: Chickadee on September 08, 2012, 12:41:39 PM
How is this not a bullying situation?  Honest question.  I can't see it as anything else.

Because there is no pattern of behavior. It is not bullying be nasty or mean to someone in a one time incident. If it was, everyone on the planet would be a bully, because everyone has done something awful to another person at some point. If everyone is a bully then the term loses all meaning.

It goes far beyond bullying. It's unspeakable cruelty.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: DistantStar on September 08, 2012, 12:45:10 PM
You said it better than I could, Tabby Uprising.

I happen to think this incident more than crosses the line; it leaves the line lightyears behind.  I would be sadly disappointed in my brother if he married a woman who would treat me like that.  I'd strongly considering cutting him off.  I would definitely cut her off.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: DistantStar on September 08, 2012, 12:45:57 PM
Oops, double post instead of an edit.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: RingTailedLemur on September 08, 2012, 12:49:44 PM
How is this not a bullying situation?  Honest question.  I can't see it as anything else.

Because there is no pattern of behavior. It is not bullying be nasty or mean to someone in a one time incident. If it was, everyone on the planet would be a bully, because everyone has done something awful to another person at some point. If everyone is a bully then the term loses all meaning.

Distant Star said this was a bullying situation.  She didn't say that Louise was a bully, but that the behaviour was.  You don't need a pattern of behaviour to call out one instance of behaviour as "bullying", you only need that pattern of behaviour to label a person as a bully.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: miranova on September 08, 2012, 12:52:43 PM
Dave's behavior is worse than Louise's behavior.  Not the same, worse.  This is his SISTER we are talking about.  It may have initially been Louise's idea to uninvite Susan, but that is just a technicality.  Dave has uninvited his own sister to his wedding due to her disability.  All of this talk about telling the parents or not telling the parents seems moot.  Of course this is going to come out.  We are talking about sibling and their parents, not acquaintences.  I would not be all coy with my own parents about why I'm not attending my brother's wedding.  I wouldn't be telling them for the PURPOSE of getting them to hate Louise, I would be telling them because they are my parents and they'd be expecting to see me at my brother's wedding!  There is no way I'd let my parents think that I'm refusing to go.  I'd go so far as to say that the parents deserve to know from Susan that she will not be attending.  How unfair would it be if they showed up to their son's wedding and THEN found out that Susan wasn't coming?  That would create far MORE drama, not less.  So yes the parents should be told that Susan has been univited to her brother's wedding, and I don't think it would be wrong to say why when asked.

Aquaintances, friends, extended family on the other hand....sure no reason to go out of your way to tell them. 
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: AngelBarchild on September 08, 2012, 01:06:26 PM
How is this not a bullying situation?  Honest question.  I can't see it as anything else.

Because there is no pattern of behavior. It is not bullying be nasty or mean to someone in a one time incident. If it was, everyone on the planet would be a bully, because everyone has done something awful to another person at some point. If everyone is a bully then the term loses all meaning.

Distant Star said this was a bullying situation.  She didn't say that Louise was a bully, but that the behaviour was.  You don't need a pattern of behaviour to call out one instance of behaviour as "bullying", you only need that pattern of behaviour to label a person as a bully.

It is impossible to have a "bullying situation" is no one is being a bully. Otherwise it's just someone being mean and nasty.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: LeveeWoman on September 08, 2012, 01:20:10 PM
How is this not a bullying situation?  Honest question.  I can't see it as anything else.

Because there is no pattern of behavior. It is not bullying be nasty or mean to someone in a one time incident. If it was, everyone on the planet would be a bully, because everyone has done something awful to another person at some point. If everyone is a bully then the term loses all meaning.

Distant Star said this was a bullying situation.  She didn't say that Louise was a bully, but that the behaviour was.  You don't need a pattern of behaviour to call out one instance of behaviour as "bullying", you only need that pattern of behaviour to label a person as a bully.

It is impossible to have a "bullying situation" is no one is being a bully. Otherwise it's just someone being mean and nasty.

Demanding someone alter her appearance or risk being told to not come IS bullying.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: Bethalize on September 08, 2012, 01:24:47 PM
How is this not a bullying situation?  Honest question.  I can't see it as anything else.

Because there is no pattern of behavior. It is not bullying be nasty or mean to someone in a one time incident. If it was, everyone on the planet would be a bully, because everyone has done something awful to another person at some point. If everyone is a bully then the term loses all meaning.

(1) Probably everyone has been guilty of bullying behaviour at some point in their lives.
(2) Calling people "bullies" is dehumanising and I'm not a fan of it.
(3) Bullyonline.org says - and I agree - that "Bullying is persistent unwelcome behaviour, mostly using unwarranted or invalid criticism, nit-picking, fault-finding, also exclusion, isolation, being singled out and treated differently, being shouted at, humiliated, excessive monitoring, having verbal and written warnings imposed, and much more."
(4) There may not yet be a repeated pattern of behaviour, but one iteration is the pattern.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: Mammavan3 on September 08, 2012, 01:41:25 PM
A bully is a person who uses an advantage s/he has over another (size, position, aggressiveness, support from others) to coerce or intimidate that person. Louise's actions are bullying because she is using her power to rescind the invitation to her wedding (and she is acting as if it is HER wedding and not THEIR wedding) to force Susan to do something she does not wish to do.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: asb8 on September 08, 2012, 01:56:59 PM
OP here,

Wow, I can't believe the volume of responses here.  Thank you for all the good advice. 

To answer a few questions:

1. Susan and Dave do not have have other siblings.  Their father died a few years ago and their mother isn't in the greatest of health.
2. Dave and Louise are paying for the wedding themselves
3. Louise has never before indicated that she has a problem with Susan's arm or that she wanted Susan to wear a different dress.
4. Susan very much feels that she and Louise are adults and that any problems between them should be worked out between them.

That being said, Susan is reluctant to bring this to her mother or anyone else really.  This is the first time she's experience any blatant disapproval because of her arm and she's rather embarassed.

She's asked Dave to meet her for lunch in a couple of days to talk, once she has had a chance to really think through what she wants to do. 
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: Amara on September 08, 2012, 02:03:11 PM
OP, I would really like to know a few more things. They wouldn't change my opinion that Dave bears the greater responsibility here for the decision, whether he was active in it or not, and that Louise is being unbelievably cruel. However, it would enlighten the situation, I think, if we knew (not necessarily in the order in which I have asked them) . . .

(1) if Dave and Susan's parents know about the demands Louise has made and what their feelings are?

(2) if other family members or close friends know and what their feelings are?

(3) how long Dave and Louise have been together?

(4) how much time and in what situations (one-on-one, family holiday parties, etc.) Louise and Susan have had together?

(5) if Louise has ever expressed distaste or other negative things to Dave or anyone else about Susan?

(6) if Dave and Susan are close or if Dave doesn't particularly like his sister (for whatever reason)?

(7) if Louise has ever shown any "weird" reactions to anything else or demanded her opinion is the only one that counts; in other words, has she shown signs of being a Special Snowflake in other situations?

[8] if Louise's body language indicates she is uncomfortable (or worse) around Susan?


ETA: I see you posted an update while I was typing. Ah, that's good additional information. Maybe Susan is doing the right thing by waiting a couple of days then talking to Dave alone. I hope it works out.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: lisat on September 08, 2012, 02:03:29 PM
I wonder how close Susan is to her parents? As a parent I know when something is bothering my adult children and ask. I would assume that the parents are excited about the wedding and would know if their daughter is now less than excited and would ask her. I would be furious and have a "come to momma" talk with my son. This would undoubtedly kill any chance of a close relationship with my new DIL but so be it. It was her behavior that is sooo unacceptable that it is mind boggling. I would probably talk to her mother and tell why hubby and I would not be attending the wedding because you can bet that I would not support them.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: Calypso on September 08, 2012, 02:18:26 PM
Susan is embarrassed? I'm horrified. Louise and Dave need to be held accountable for that, even if they do make up for the rest of their behavior. They need to get on their knees and apologize, figuratively speaking.
 Can we stop arguing about whether or not this is "bullying," by the way? Who cares? No posters have suggested that what Louise said is ok. The label is secondary. We all agree, the behavior is just wrong.

I'll be very interested to hear updates. I'm a little sorry that Susan is going through Dave and taking a kind of softer approach----I can see Dave weasle-ing out with "Louise just wants everything to be perfect for her special daaaaay" and not owning his own part in this.

Please encourage Susan to forget about being embarrassed. Angry, yes. Embarrassed---no way!!
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: Queen of Clubs on September 08, 2012, 02:23:56 PM
Susan is embarrassed? I'm horrified. Louise and Dave need to be held accountable for that, even if they do make up for the rest of their behavior. They need to get on their knees and apologize, figuratively speaking.
 Can we stop arguing about whether or not this is "bullying," by the way? Who cares? No posters have suggested that what Louise said is ok. The label is secondary. We all agree, the behavior is just wrong.

I'll be very interested to hear updates. I'm a little sorry that Susan is going through Dave and taking a kind of softer approach----I can see Dave weasle-ing out with "Louise just wants everything to be perfect for her special daaaaay" and not owning his own part in this.

Please encourage Susan to forget about being embarrassed. Angry, yes. Embarrassed---no way!!

I agree with all of this.  Susan has nothing to be embarrassed over.  Louise, on the other hand, should be scarlet with shame.

If Dave supports his fiance in ostracising his sister for her disability, then shame on him too.

Unless they apologise to Susan, Susan shouldn't attend the wedding.  Instead, when asked, she should (as other posters have said), reply that she was asked to not attend as her disability upsets Louise.  The risk in waiting to be asked is that it'll allow Louise and Dave to answer first, if anyone asks at the wedding.

If Dave goes ahead and marries Louise and supports her in her stance, then I can't see his relationship with his sister lasting.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: Yankeegal77 on September 08, 2012, 02:26:02 PM
OP, thanks for the update. I'm so very sad For Susan and infuriated on her behalf.

She definitely needs to talk to Dave. And for heaven's sake, it's LOUISE that should be embarrassed, not Susan!

Dave ought to just be ashamed of himself. Plain and simple. This is his SISTER. (Sheesh, even *my* brother, who takes a lot of garbage from his live-in girlfriend,  risked her wrath and drama and took my side when said domestic partner decided to boycott my visit home last Christmas!)

I would still bring it up with her mother, or if she has a close, preferably older, relative. Someone who can advise her on how to approach this with Dave. Just so someone in the family knows the whole story and can quietly spread the word. There *is* a genteel way to state facts to others who might inquire about the situation.

Someone asks: Say, where's Susan? Is she ill--why is she missing her brother's wedding?

Relative/friend: Unfortunately, Louise and Dave uninvited Susan, as she was unable to wear the prosthetic and it made Louise uncomfortable.

Stating of facts *when asked* is not rude in this case, IMO. No name calling, no speculation...just the facts. If guests decide to confront Louise or no longer associate with her, well...she reaps what she sows.

As for speaking with Dave--gently telling him that she loves and supports him, and wants him to be happy,  but that she has been deeply hurt are all appropriate.

I don't see this as any different, honestly, of telling a future SIL that her adopted child of a different race will disrupt the all-Caucasian line-up, so not only is the little girl not in the wedding, could she leave her kid home, or sit in the back of the church? Or telling your fiance's sister with a newly-diagnosed thyroid issue that the weight she has been putting on will make your attendant line look bad. This is discrimination. Call it for what it is. Maybe it's out of line, but I subscribe to the fact that you treat your wedding guests as people, not props.

Dave needs to seriously consider the character of the woman he is about to marry, as well as his own. Sounds like neither of them is mature enough to enter a state of matrimony.

Anyway, I'm hoping for the best for Susan. Please keep us updated. She sounds like a lovely woman and I'd happily let her wear whatever she wanted as a bridesmaid.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: HonorH on September 08, 2012, 02:31:08 PM
Susan should tell Dave, "I'm willing to step down from the bridal party. At this point, I don't want to be in it anymore. But if I don't attend the wedding, do you want to be the one to have to explain to Mom why I'm not there? If Louise will compromise that far, no more will be said about it. I respect her less for this, but that'll be between the two of us. You are in the middle of it, bro, whether you like it or not, because you're letting her treat me like a freak and acting like it's fine with you if she does. I'm really disappointed and hurt."
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: JenJay on September 08, 2012, 02:34:39 PM
Susan should tell Dave, "I'm willing to step down from the bridal party. At this point, I don't want to be in it anymore. But if I don't attend the wedding, do you want to be the one to have to explain to Mom why I'm not there? If Louise will compromise that far, no more will be said about it. I respect her less for this, but that'll be between the two of us. You are in the middle of it, bro, whether you like it or not, because you're letting her treat me like a freak and acting like it's fine with you if she does. I'm really disappointed and hurt."

I change my answer to ^ this!
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: gramma dishes on September 08, 2012, 02:36:16 PM
...    and I'd happily let her wear whatever she wanted as a bridesmaid.

And I'd happily let her NOT wear whatever she wanted too!  She doesn't want to wear her prosthetic arm?  In the drawer it stays.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: Venus193 on September 08, 2012, 02:41:51 PM
I have no new suggestions; just posting for updates.

I agree with the earlier post that "all it takes to bring about rudeness is for polite people to say nothing."
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: Lorelei_Evil on September 08, 2012, 02:42:11 PM
Susan should tell Dave, "I'm willing to step down from the bridal party. At this point, I don't want to be in it anymore. But if I don't attend the wedding, do you want to be the one to have to explain to Mom why I'm not there? If Louise will compromise that far, no more will be said about it. I respect her less for this, but that'll be between the two of us. You are in the middle of it, bro, whether you like it or not, because you're letting her treat me like a freak and acting like it's fine with you if she does. I'm really disappointed and hurt."

I change my answer to ^ this!

Double POD to this wording.  I hope this lunch will be just the two of them, without Louise (loved whoever had the Lousie typo I laughed for 5 minutes) so any message has a chance of actually sticking.  This is how family rifts start, and that's not usually a good outcome!
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: Elfmama on September 08, 2012, 02:47:23 PM
Considering that Susan's parents have raised her to believe she is not disabled and treated her as normally as anyone else, I can not see this going down well if she tells them.  Which is exactly why I think she needs to tell her parents.   It may not turn out to be terribly pretty but imo, Louise should not be sheltered from the consequences of being such a...a... well feel free to mentally fill in the blank with your own non-ehell approved word.
Surely there is an ehell-safe phrase for Louise.  Anal sphincter might be a suitable phrase, or aft matter expulsion portal.  Or ehell's very own bacon-fed knave.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: strangetimes on September 08, 2012, 03:01:09 PM
Susan should tell Dave, "I'm willing to step down from the bridal party. At this point, I don't want to be in it anymore. But if I don't attend the wedding, do you want to be the one to have to explain to Mom why I'm not there? If Louise will compromise that far, no more will be said about it. I respect her less for this, but that'll be between the two of us. You are in the middle of it, bro, whether you like it or not, because you're letting her treat me like a freak and acting like it's fine with you if she does. I'm really disappointed and hurt."

I change my answer to ^ this!

Double POD to this wording.  I hope this lunch will be just the two of them, without Louise (loved whoever had the Lousie typo I laughed for 5 minutes) so any message has a chance of actually sticking.  This is how family rifts start, and that's not usually a good outcome!

I agree with this- as long as it's clear that Louise is going to tell everyone the truth about why she's disinviting Susan.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: Pippen on September 08, 2012, 03:26:13 PM
Just throwing this thought out there and I could be well off the mark as I have no access to the dark and fetid corners of Louise's mind but it sounds like she set the whole thing up to cause problems.

They aren't good friends so why did she ask her to be in the bridal party?
She choose a unflattering dress that would mark Susan out as different
She know she would be unlikely to were her prosthesis but made it a condition

In my mind these were all set out to humiliate Susan or at the very least create an excuse to not have her at the wedding and drive a wedge between her Dave and his family.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: camlan on September 08, 2012, 04:06:43 PM
Just throwing this thought out there and I could be well off the mark as I have no access to the dark and fetid corners of Louise's mind but it sounds like she set the whole thing up to cause problems.

They aren't good friends so why did she ask her to be in the bridal party?
She choose a unflattering dress that would mark Susan out as different
She know she would be unlikely to were her prosthesis but made it a condition

In my mind these were all set out to humiliate Susan or at the very least create an excuse to not have her at the wedding and drive a wedge between her Dave and his family.

I was puzzling over why Louise would have asked Susan to be in the wedding party, as well. My working theory is that Louise wanted to make sure that the prosthesis was worn, and that it was covered up as much as possible, so Louise figured that by asking Susan to be a bridesmaid, Louise could control what Susan wore to the wedding. Once Susan refused to wear the "special" bridesmaid dress, Louise could only control the situation by uninviting Susan to the wedding. Because Susan, as a plain old guest, could wear whatever she wanted. Or not wear what she didn't want to, in the case of the prosthesis.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: cheyne on September 08, 2012, 04:40:41 PM
If Louise is having a hard time "adjusting" to Susan's arm, she needs to get over it ASAP.  If she can't get over it by herself she needs to see a professional to help her get over it.

Susan is not a random college friend of Dave's, she's his sister.  There will be many times that Louise will see Susan over the next 40 years or so.  If there is a genetic component to Susan's arm, there is a possibility that Dave and Louise could have a child with the same issue.  What the heck is Louise gonna do then, give her child up for adoption?

I know many people can be uncomfortable when confronted with someone who looks "different" than other people.  However, I would think that Louise has seen Susan enough to get over her discomfort, is there something else going on between them?


Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: Harriet Jones on September 08, 2012, 04:41:43 PM
I don't think it's that unusual to have the groom's sister in the bridal party, even if the sister and the bride aren't particularly close.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: Pippen on September 08, 2012, 05:00:57 PM
I don't think it's that unusual to have the groom's sister in the bridal party, even if the sister and the bride aren't particularly close.

True, but this from the OP "while she and Louise do not have to be friends, they have to be respectful and civil." it makes it sound like their is no love lost between them and it would be odd to have her in the bridal party. The whole dynamic is skewed. I think Dave wants to stay out of it because there is more background between these two than we are aware of. I wouldn't like to be caught in the middle of it either but he does need to pony up and deal with it.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: Iris on September 08, 2012, 05:17:32 PM
If Louise is having a hard time "adjusting" to Susan's arm, she needs to get over it ASAP.  If she can't get over it by herself she needs to see a professional to help her get over it.

Susan is not a random college friend of Dave's, she's his sister.  There will be many times that Louise will see Susan over the next 40 years or so.  If there is a genetic component to Susan's arm, there is a possibility that Dave and Louise could have a child with the same issue.  What the heck is Louise gonna do then, give her child up for adoption?

I know many people can be uncomfortable when confronted with someone who looks "different" than other people.  However, I would think that Louise has seen Susan enough to get over her discomfort, is there something else going on between them?

Also, we usually learn in childhood that it is rude, rude, rude to show that discomfort (or even overt interest) at all. Most parents know that a small child confronted with a person outside of their usual experience will stare and ask awkward questions. We get embarrassed, although the person being stared at is often remarkably gracious about it, we remove the child from the situation if appropriate and apologise if appropriate, and then we have a 'discussion' about manners and making people feel embarrassed. I really don't see how Louise has gotten so far through life without learning this incredibly basic lesson.

I mean, I have had parents with really marked facial deformities come to PT conferences. Not one person in the whole room, from 12 year olds up, showed by the flicker of an eyelid that they looked any different from anyone else. If the 12 year olds can do it, so can Louise.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: Winterlight on September 08, 2012, 05:21:28 PM
Susan should tell Dave, "I'm willing to step down from the bridal party. At this point, I don't want to be in it anymore. But if I don't attend the wedding, do you want to be the one to have to explain to Mom why I'm not there? If Louise will compromise that far, no more will be said about it. I respect her less for this, but that'll be between the two of us. You are in the middle of it, bro, whether you like it or not, because you're letting her treat me like a freak and acting like it's fine with you if she does. I'm really disappointed and hurt."

This. Susan should not have to explain anything. Let Dave say, "Mom, we disinvited her because Louise doesn't want to look at Susan's arm." See how he feels about that.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: Venus193 on September 08, 2012, 05:40:48 PM
Susan should tell Dave, "I'm willing to step down from the bridal party. At this point, I don't want to be in it anymore. But if I don't attend the wedding, do you want to be the one to have to explain to Mom why I'm not there? If Louise will compromise that far, no more will be said about it. I respect her less for this, but that'll be between the two of us. You are in the middle of it, bro, whether you like it or not, because you're letting her treat me like a freak and acting like it's fine with you if she does. I'm really disappointed and hurt."

This. Susan should not have to explain anything. Let Dave say, "Mom, we disinvited her because Louise doesn't want to look at Susan's arm." See how he feels about that.

Adding my vote here.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: BarensMom on September 08, 2012, 06:01:16 PM
Susan should tell Dave, "I'm willing to step down from the bridal party. At this point, I don't want to be in it anymore. But if I don't attend the wedding, do you want to be the one to have to explain to Mom why I'm not there? If Louise will compromise that far, no more will be said about it. I respect her less for this, but that'll be between the two of us. You are in the middle of it, bro, whether you like it or not, because you're letting her treat me like a freak and acting like it's fine with you if she does. I'm really disappointed and hurt."

This. Susan should not have to explain anything. Let Dave say, "Mom, we disinvited her because Louise doesn't want to look at Susan's arm." See how he feels about that.

Adding my vote here.

But Dave won't say that.  He and Louise will make themselves look good by claiming ignorance.   It is up to Susan to let her mother and extended family know the truth.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: LeveeWoman on September 08, 2012, 06:03:26 PM
I hope Susan prints out the e-mail in case she needs proof.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: CrazyDaffodilLady on September 08, 2012, 06:11:41 PM
. . . I know many people can be uncomfortable when confronted with someone who looks "different" than other people.  However, I would think that Louise has seen Susan enough to get over her discomfort, is there something else going on between them?
I had a school friend "Miranda" whose older brother was born with a withered hand.  When we were about 10, someone asked her, "What's wrong with your brother's hand?"  Miranda looked puzzled and walked away.  Later she told me that although she knew her brother did some things differently, until that moment it had never occurred to her that there was something "wrong" with him.

As my sweet aunt would say, Louise needs to build a bridge and get over it.  We know from reality TV that people can even get used to girls with two heads.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: pierrotlunaire0 on September 08, 2012, 06:35:27 PM
Susan should tell Dave, "I'm willing to step down from the bridal party. At this point, I don't want to be in it anymore. But if I don't attend the wedding, do you want to be the one to have to explain to Mom why I'm not there? If Louise will compromise that far, no more will be said about it. I respect her less for this, but that'll be between the two of us. You are in the middle of it, bro, whether you like it or not, because you're letting her treat me like a freak and acting like it's fine with you if she does. I'm really disappointed and hurt."

I change my answer to ^ this!
I'm parking my POD here as well.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: Acadianna on September 08, 2012, 06:45:06 PM
I do believe this is the most despicable treatment of a human being I've ever read about on this board.  Dave would be well advised to break off his engagement to the heartless and toxic Louise, whose character is probably beyond salvage.  The thought of her as mother to children horrifies me.

My heart goes out to Susan.

Susan should tell Dave, "I'm willing to step down from the bridal party. At this point, I don't want to be in it anymore. But if I don't attend the wedding, do you want to be the one to have to explain to Mom why I'm not there? If Louise will compromise that far, no more will be said about it. I respect her less for this, but that'll be between the two of us. You are in the middle of it, bro, whether you like it or not, because you're letting her treat me like a freak and acting like it's fine with you if she does. I'm really disappointed and hurt."

And another POD to this excellent advice.

(Edited for grammar.)
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: Hawkwatcher on September 08, 2012, 06:57:25 PM
I don't think it's that unusual to have the groom's sister in the bridal party, even if the sister and the bride aren't particularly close.

I agree.  Louise might have asked Susan to be a bridesmaid because some people believe that they have to include relatives in the bridal party. 

Unfortunately, I agree with the posters who are concerned that Dave and Louise won't not tell the truth about why they disinvited Susan.  They may leave out some facts to make themselves look good at Susan's expense.  If Susan wants her family to know the truth, she is going to have to be the one to tell them what happened.

But if Susan does tell her family, she needs to be prepared for the fact that they might contact Dave and Louise.  Dave and Louise might try to "save face" by claiming that this "all a big misunderstanding" and that Susan is welcome to participate in the wedding. 

If they apologized and offered to let Susan in the wedding party, would she still be interested?
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: gramma dishes on September 08, 2012, 07:01:22 PM
...   I agree with the posters who are concerned that Dave and Louise won't not tell the truth about why they disinvited Susan.  They may leave out some facts to make themselves look good at Susan's expense.  If Susan wants her family to know the truth, she is going to have to be the one to tell them what happened.
...

I agree that she's going to have to tell them herself because it is incredibly unlikely that Dave and Louise will tell the truth here.
Was it ever established whether or not the communication from Louise actually was in the form of an email?  If it was, I'd just forward that to the parents or at least make a hard copy for them to peruse on their own.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: PeterM on September 08, 2012, 07:08:05 PM
4. Susan very much feels that she and Louise are adults and that any problems between them should be worked out between them.

That being said, Susan is reluctant to bring this to her mother or anyone else really.  This is the first time she's experience any blatant disapproval because of her arm and she's rather embarassed.

If Susan doesn't go to the wedding there is literally no chance that this matter will remain between her and Louise. It will be noticed that she's not at her brother's wedding, and the only people there who have any knowledge of the situation are not people I would trust to tell the truth. To put it mildly. Louise has already effectively made this a public matter, whether she realizes it or not.

Quote
She's asked Dave to meet her for lunch in a couple of days to talk, once she has had a chance to really think through what she wants to do.

That sounds like a good next step. She should ask Dave what he prefers. If he says he'd prefer she not attend, that should tell her all she needs to know. And if she ends up not attending, be it by Dave's or Louise's request, I would make it clear to the both of them that I would not lie to cover for them, and they'd better stick to meaningless generalities or the strict truth when discussing the matter with others unless they want all hell to break loose.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: PeterM on September 08, 2012, 07:10:51 PM
Because there is no pattern of behavior. It is not bullying be nasty or mean to someone in a one time incident. If it was, everyone on the planet would be a bully, because everyone has done something awful to another person at some point. If everyone is a bully then the term loses all meaning.

Distant Star said this was a bullying situation.  She didn't say that Louise was a bully, but that the behaviour was.  You don't need a pattern of behaviour to call out one instance of behaviour as "bullying", you only need that pattern of behaviour to label a person as a bully.

It is impossible to have a "bullying situation" is no one is being a bully. Otherwise it's just someone being mean and nasty.

I don't agree with this at all. So if a friend of mine acts like a jerk in a specific situation, but is usually quite pleasant, you would argue that saying "He was a jerk!" would be factually incorrect because he's not always a jerk?

And how come "mean and nasty" is okay to apply based on only one situation but "bullying" isn't? Do you really think the former is better than the latter? If we were talking about kids I could kind of see the point of avoiding a hot button label, but these are grown adults. At least theoretically, in Louise's case.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: something.new.every.day on September 08, 2012, 09:40:29 PM
posting for updates
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: AngelBarchild on September 08, 2012, 10:08:09 PM
Because there is no pattern of behavior. It is not bullying be nasty or mean to someone in a one time incident. If it was, everyone on the planet would be a bully, because everyone has done something awful to another person at some point. If everyone is a bully then the term loses all meaning.

Distant Star said this was a bullying situation.  She didn't say that Louise was a bully, but that the behaviour was.  You don't need a pattern of behaviour to call out one instance of behaviour as "bullying", you only need that pattern of behaviour to label a person as a bully.

It is impossible to have a "bullying situation" is no one is being a bully. Otherwise it's just someone being mean and nasty.

I don't agree with this at all. So if a friend of mine acts like a jerk in a specific situation, but is usually quite pleasant, you would argue that saying "He was a jerk!" would be factually incorrect because he's not always a jerk?

And how come "mean and nasty" is okay to apply based on only one situation but "bullying" isn't? Do you really think the former is better than the latter? If we were talking about kids I could kind of see the point of avoiding a hot button label, but these are grown adults. At least theoretically, in Louise's case.

I think  bully is a hot button label for everyone now days, not just children. Bullying is by definition is a pattern of behavior, and far more serious (in most cases) than  single instance of nasty behavior. When we water down the meaning until every offensive action is bullying we do a terrible disservice those who have suffered at the hands of bullies over the years.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: Sharnita on September 08, 2012, 10:14:12 PM
first of all, I would say that you are way too invested in the pattern part of your definition.  Second of all, I would say there actually is a pattern.  Louise first picks out a different dress to set Susan apart.  She insists Susan where the prosthesis.  When she doesn't seem to "win" either of those attacks she decides to not only kick Susan out of the WP but also ban her from the wedding itself.  There isn't just one act here, there are actually several attacks on Susan.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: greencat on September 08, 2012, 10:37:23 PM
Who cares if Louise is a bully?  Louise is an overt bigot.  Polite society does not tolerate bigotry.  Polite society does not excuse or cover up bigotry either.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: TootsNYC on September 08, 2012, 10:39:18 PM
Given that Susan and Dave's father has passed away and their mother is not in good health, if I were Susan, I'd be nearly frantic.

What's that line from Richard III?
"Ah, me, I see the ruin of my house."

I would assume that soon I would lose my brother. That his wife would pressure him to cease contact with me.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: Knitterly on September 08, 2012, 10:44:54 PM
Because there is no pattern of behavior. It is not bullying be nasty or mean to someone in a one time incident. If it was, everyone on the planet would be a bully, because everyone has done something awful to another person at some point. If everyone is a bully then the term loses all meaning.

Distant Star said this was a bullying situation.  She didn't say that Louise was a bully, but that the behaviour was.  You don't need a pattern of behaviour to call out one instance of behaviour as "bullying", you only need that pattern of behaviour to label a person as a bully.

It is impossible to have a "bullying situation" is no one is being a bully. Otherwise it's just someone being mean and nasty.

I don't agree with this at all. So if a friend of mine acts like a jerk in a specific situation, but is usually quite pleasant, you would argue that saying "He was a jerk!" would be factually incorrect because he's not always a jerk?

And how come "mean and nasty" is okay to apply based on only one situation but "bullying" isn't? Do you really think the former is better than the latter? If we were talking about kids I could kind of see the point of avoiding a hot button label, but these are grown adults. At least theoretically, in Louise's case.

I think  bully is a hot button label for everyone now days, not just children. Bullying is by definition is a pattern of behavior, and far more serious (in most cases) than  single instance of nasty behavior. When we water down the meaning until every offensive action is bullying we do a terrible disservice those who have suffered at the hands of bullies over the years.

The definition of bully (as a verb, taken from my copy of the Merriam Webster dictionary) is "To treat abusively; to affect by means of force or coercion".  In this case, Susan is being bullied by Louise to wear her prosthesis.  She MUST wear it and hide her difference or she is not permitted to attend her brother's wedding.   She is being affected by means of coercion and also being treated abusively.  She is being bullied.

We cannot say whether Louise is a bully and habitually mistreats people, but whether or not she is habitually a bully, she is undeniably bullying Susan.

I do hope that Susan is able to clear the air with her brother, and I sincerely hope that she lets their mother (at the very least) know the truth about why she won't be at the wedding if Dave chooses to side with Louise.  And I sincerely hope that Louise backpedals hard on this one and realized how truly awful she is being!!!
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: AmysAuntie on September 08, 2012, 10:50:36 PM
Bigotry should never be rewarded by silent complicity.

Truer words were never spoken.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: cheyne on September 08, 2012, 11:36:13 PM
I am hoping that the OP will update us on whether there is something else going on between Louise and Susan.  I just can't imagine anyone dis-inviting their fiances sister because she is missing part of her arm and for no other reason.  Susan's arm has been like this since birth, surely Louise has seen the arm numerous times.  Why would it start bothering her now? 

I am NOT defending Louise in any way-but could this be something with her parents?  Did her mom or dad say they couldn't or wouldn't attend the wedding unless Susan wore the prosthesis?   That would be the only way I'd have an iota of sympathy for Louise, but I would still tell her to tell her parent to suck it up and deal.

One other possibility:  OP, is Louise mentally unstable?  Have there been other past incidents that would show that Louise has a fixation on Susan's arm?  Is she from a family that feels these kinds of things are from evil spirits or the Devil?  Otherwise I got nothin'.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: Shopaholic on September 09, 2012, 12:06:03 AM
What I was thinking is that Louise may have been put under some pressure or have gotten some ideas from the other bridesmaids, because the different dress just came up after the dress-shopping outing.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: Moray on September 09, 2012, 12:34:51 AM
Who cares if Louise is a bully?  Louise is an overt bigot.  Polite society does not tolerate bigotry.  Polite society does not excuse or cover up bigotry either.

Exactly. The word "bully" is becoming a red herring in this thread. Regardless of label, Louise's behavior is unacceptable, and so is Dave's, perhaps more so.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: Calypso on September 09, 2012, 01:02:59 AM
I'm not willing to assume yet that Louise is evil or malicious....she could just be phenomenally silly and shallow. When Dave points out that she's messed up big time (and he had better), what she does from that point would determine my reaction.

It's possible she is just that dumb. Give her one chance to redeem herself before calling in the torch-bearing mob, I say.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: MariaE on September 09, 2012, 01:07:45 AM
Who cares if Louise is a bully?  Louise is an overt bigot.  Polite society does not tolerate bigotry.  Polite society does not excuse or cover up bigotry either.

Exactly. The word "bully" is becoming a red herring in this thread. Regardless of label, Louise's behavior is unacceptable, and so is Dave's, perhaps more so.

And really, being a bigot is quite a bit worse than being a bully. A bully may change, bigots seldom do.

I'm with the posters who think that leaving Dave and Louise to do the explanation is a horrible, no-good idea. I wouldn't trust them to tell the unbiased truth. I like the rest of the script though.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: gramma dishes on September 09, 2012, 01:30:54 AM
... Louise replied that Susan had to wear the prosthetic arm and the chosen dress, as the missing portion of Susan's arm makes Louise uncomfortable.  Furthermore, if Susan refused, then Louise would like her to not only resign from the bridal party but not attend the wedding!

It sounds like Louise is NOT being pressured by anyone.  She just doesn't like the way the arm looks.  She clearly isn't comfortable with anything that doesn't fit into her own brain's definition of what is "normal" and to her the arm is abnormal. 

She on the other hand, is missing something too.  A soul.  Less visible to the casual observer, but far sadder than a missing part of an arm.

Let's hope none of her other bridesmaids show up with a big pimple on the end of their nose or that one will be banned too because that won't meet Louise's idea of perfection.       
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: AngelBarchild on September 09, 2012, 02:46:10 AM
I'm not willing to assume yet that Louise is evil or malicious....she could just be phenomenally silly and shallow. When Dave points out that she's messed up big time (and he had better), what she does from that point would determine my reaction.

It's possible she is just that dumb. Give her one chance to redeem herself before calling in the torch-bearing mob, I say.

I agree with this. Never attribute to malice what is adequately explained by stupidity.

The bride has been made in to the sum of all evil, it's even been suggested she lacks a soul (whatever that means). I have never seen so much hate and name calling on an etiquette board.

Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: AmysAuntie on September 09, 2012, 03:03:01 AM
I'm not willing to assume yet that Louise is evil or malicious....she could just be phenomenally silly and shallow. When Dave points out that she's messed up big time (and he had better), what she does from that point would determine my reaction.

It's possible she is just that dumb. Give her one chance to redeem herself before calling in the torch-bearing mob, I say.

I agree with this. Never attribute to malice what is adequately explained by stupidity.

The bride has been made in to the sum of all evil, it's even been suggested she lacks a soul (whatever that means). I have never seen so much hate and name calling on an etiquette board.

Trouble here is, I can't attribute Louise's actions to simple stupidity on any level.  This is meanness, pure and simple.  "I don't like the way you look, so don't even show up at my wedding."  Really?  No.  Just no.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: MariaE on September 09, 2012, 04:44:39 AM
Agree with AmysAuntie. Stupidity would be saying "You obviously can't perform the duties of a bridesmaid with only one hand, so you'd better not be in the wedding party". Shallowness would be saying "I don't want the missing arm to mess up my photos so you can't be in the wedding party" (or even "so please make sure you're not in any photos". Louise's actions don't fall in either of those categories. She's being selfish and cruel.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: parrot_girl on September 09, 2012, 05:21:06 AM
Bigotry should never be rewarded by silent complicity.

I haven't read through the entire thread yet, but
BRAVO AND WELL SAID TRASKA.

Pod pod pod pod. I can't agree enough.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: kherbert05 on September 09, 2012, 06:26:02 AM
Who cares if Louise is a bully?  Louise is an overt bigot.  Polite society does not tolerate bigotry.  Polite society does not excuse or cover up bigotry either.
POD and to add has anyone ever met a bigot that wasn't a bully? They are always trying to force good people to buy into their bigoted hate.
 
 
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: Oh Joy on September 09, 2012, 06:29:08 AM
I'm not willing to assume yet that Louise is evil or malicious....she could just be phenomenally silly and shallow. When Dave points out that she's messed up big time (and he had better), what she does from that point would determine my reaction.

It's possible she is just that dumb. Give her one chance to redeem herself before calling in the torch-bearing mob, I say.

I'm more inclined to lean this way, myself.  Is it possible Louise is a terrible person in so many ways?  Absolutely.  But I think of the strange requests and demands we've seen brides make of their party members' and guests' appearances over the years, and I can't declare yet that Louise is different solely because this is about a prosthetic and not shoes/rings/tattoos/etc.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: LeveeWoman on September 09, 2012, 07:06:32 AM
I'm not willing to assume yet that Louise is evil or malicious....she could just be phenomenally silly and shallow. When Dave points out that she's messed up big time (and he had better), what she does from that point would determine my reaction.

It's possible she is just that dumb. Give her one chance to redeem herself before calling in the torch-bearing mob, I say.

I'm more inclined to lean this way, myself.  Is it possible Louise is a terrible person in so many ways?  Absolutely.  But I think of the strange requests and demands we've seen brides make of their party members' and guests' appearances over the years, and I can't declare yet that Louise is different solely because this is about a prosthetic and not shoes/rings/tattoos/etc.

You dont' see the difference between a birth defect and shoes/rings/tattoos and the like?
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: greencat on September 09, 2012, 07:06:51 AM
I think that comparing this specific discrimination against a physical difference to bridezilla-ness about superficial appearances is a red herring as much as the bullying issue.

She made specific statements about being uncomfortable with Susan's "disability" - it's miles away from having a fit because the flowers aren't the right shade of blue.

This could potentially be similar to the tattoo issue, but getting a tattoo is a choice people make - one that I made as well, so please don't misunderstand what I mean.

This isn't an issue with her being a bridezilla - this is her being a bigot towards Susan's condition.  It just happens to be affecting Susan's ability to attend and enjoy her brother's wedding, and Susan's relationship with her brother.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: Oh Joy on September 09, 2012, 07:22:09 AM
I'm not willing to assume yet that Louise is evil or malicious....she could just be phenomenally silly and shallow. When Dave points out that she's messed up big time (and he had better), what she does from that point would determine my reaction.

It's possible she is just that dumb. Give her one chance to redeem herself before calling in the torch-bearing mob, I say.

I'm more inclined to lean this way, myself.  Is it possible Louise is a terrible person in so many ways?  Absolutely.  But I think of the strange requests and demands we've seen brides make of their party members' and guests' appearances over the years, and I can't declare yet that Louise is different solely because this is about a prosthetic and not shoes/rings/tattoos/etc.

You dont' see the difference between a birth defect and shoes/rings/tattoos and the like?

Of course I do.  My point is that, while there is hate and discrimination in the world, there are also just plain strange perspectives (which seem to surface particularly easily around wedding planning)...and I don't know Louise enough to judge her or any other person's deepest motivations.  Either way, it's a very difficult situation for Susan and her family and I don't envy them.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: LeveeWoman on September 09, 2012, 07:28:56 AM
I'm not willing to assume yet that Louise is evil or malicious....she could just be phenomenally silly and shallow. When Dave points out that she's messed up big time (and he had better), what she does from that point would determine my reaction.

It's possible she is just that dumb. Give her one chance to redeem herself before calling in the torch-bearing mob, I say.

I'm more inclined to lean this way, myself.  Is it possible Louise is a terrible person in so many ways?  Absolutely.  But I think of the strange requests and demands we've seen brides make of their party members' and guests' appearances over the years, and I can't declare yet that Louise is different solely because this is about a prosthetic and not shoes/rings/tattoos/etc.

You dont' see the difference between a birth defect and shoes/rings/tattoos and the like?

Of course I do.  My point is that, while there is hate and discrimination in the world, there are also just plain strange perspectives (which seem to surface particularly easily around wedding planning)...and I don't know Louise enough to judge her or any other person's deepest motivations.  Either way, it's a very difficult situation for Susan and her family and I don't envy them.

I can't think of any perspective or motivation Louise might have that makes this
remotely similar to preferring certain things like shoes, rings, etc. It is wrong on every level.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: Sharnita on September 09, 2012, 07:35:03 AM
I think that quite often ignorance and malice or even hate go hand in hand.  Certainly when we look at the behavior brought out by racial, religious and other discrimination and persecution we frequently find that to be true.

As far as this situation - I think if Louise was ignorant but completely well-meaning it would have gone much differently.  She might have made her initial suggestion but when Susan indicated that she didn't want to wear her prosthetic arm the response would have been something like "I didn't realize you don't like to wear it.  All right, now that I know we'll scrap my plan" instead of "You will wear the dress and the prosthetic or you not only will be out of the wedding party, you will not be able to attend the wedding of your only brother".  It is her reaction to being informed that indicates malice.  Once she does know her behavior becomes more hostile.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: LeveeWoman on September 09, 2012, 07:51:56 AM
I think that quite often ignorance and malice or even hate go hand in hand.  Certainly when we look at the behavior brought out by racial, religious and other discrimination and persecution we frequently find that to be true.

As far as this situation - I think if Louise was ignorant but completely well-meaning it would have gone much differently.  She might have made her initial suggestion but when Susan indicated that she didn't want to wear her prosthetic arm the response would have been something like "I didn't realize you don't like to wear it.  All right, now that I know we'll scrap my plan" instead of "You will wear the dress and the prosthetic or you not only will be out of the wedding party, you will not be able to attend the wedding of your only brother".  It is her reaction to being informed that indicates malice.  Once she does know her behavior becomes more hostile.

I think you've nailed the answer to the question about her motivation, Sharnita.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: Tabby Uprising on September 09, 2012, 08:40:26 AM
Bully, bigot, superficial, shallow, malicious or misguided, stupid, posters too harsh, posters too nice, red herrings, blue herrings, green herrings...

A woman was banned from attending her brothers wedding because she has a disability.  The world is a sadder place for it.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: Elfmama on September 09, 2012, 09:23:16 AM
I'm not willing to assume yet that Louise is evil or malicious....she could just be phenomenally silly and shallow. When Dave points out that she's messed up big time (and he had better), what she does from that point would determine my reaction.

It's possible she is just that dumb. Give her one chance to redeem herself before calling in the torch-bearing mob, I say.

I'm more inclined to lean this way, myself.  Is it possible Louise is a terrible person in so many ways?  Absolutely.  But I think of the strange requests and demands we've seen brides make of their party members' and guests' appearances over the years, and I can't declare yet that Louise is different solely because this is about a prosthetic and not shoes/rings/tattoos/etc.

You dont' see the difference between a birth defect and shoes/rings/tattoos and the like?
They all boil down to "You are DIFFERENT and so everyone else will be staring at YOU instead of ME, AND IT'S MY DAAAAAAAAAAY!"  (http://www3.telus.net/smile/images/hissyfit.gif)

The only difference here is one of scale.  Is wearing a prosthesis you already own that different from demands to cut short your knee-length hair or have your tattoos covered or not wear your wedding rings?

All of them break down to Bridezilla = bully.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: LeveeWoman on September 09, 2012, 09:26:57 AM
Elfmama, you've reminded me of the notion that one way to guage a person's character is by how she performs under pressure, and I think that planning a wedding involves pressure.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: greencat on September 09, 2012, 09:35:25 AM
Elfmama, you've reminded me of the notion that one way to gauge a person's character is by how she performs under pressure, and I think that planning a wedding involves pressure.

The traditional way to perform that test is with Ikea furniture assembly during the early stages of dating - if you've waited until the wedding is in the works, you've missed it!
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: KenveeB on September 09, 2012, 09:40:46 AM
I think Susan needs to ask Dave bluntly at their lunch whether he wants her at the wedding or not.

If he says no, then that's your answer. Feel no compunctions about telling your mother and any other relatives exactly why you won't be attending.

If he says yes, then ask him what he's going to do with Louise to fix this situation, because she has said -- in writing -- that she doesn't want Susan there because of her disability. Have a print-out of the email to show to him so he can't back down from what she said.

If he says he doesn't want to get in the middle, smack him upside the headgive him a withering look, point out that it's his wedding too, and by not protesting that he wants his own sister at his wedding he is saying that he agrees with Louise's opinion. Make him say yes or no.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: Oh Joy on September 09, 2012, 09:50:33 AM
Elfmama, you've reminded me of the notion that one way to guage a person's character is by how she performs under pressure, and I think that planning a wedding involves pressure.

Like the expression about women being like tea bags...learning their true strength in hot water.   ;)
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: Outdoor Girl on September 09, 2012, 09:51:30 AM
I think Susan needs to ask Dave bluntly at their lunch whether he wants her at the wedding or not.

If he says no, then that's your answer. Feel no compunctions about telling your mother and any other relatives exactly why you won't be attending.

If he says yes, then ask him what he's going to do with Louise to fix this situation, because she has said -- in writing -- that she doesn't want Susan there because of her disability. Have a print-out of the email to show to him so he can't back down from what she said.

If he says he doesn't want to get in the middle, smack him upside the headgive him a withering look, point out that it's his wedding too, and by not protesting that he wants his own sister at his wedding he is saying that he agrees with Louise's opinion. Make him say yes or no.

I agree.

Make it clear to Dave that if he sides with Louise on this, he is essentially saying he no longer wants Susan in his life.  Because Louise is always going to make an issue of Susan's 'disability'.  Plus, were I Susan, I don't think I could ever forgive my brother, let alone Louise.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: EmmaJ. on September 09, 2012, 09:54:26 AM
Bully, bigot, superficial, shallow, malicious or misguided, stupid, posters too harsh, posters too nice, red herrings, blue herrings, green herrings...

A woman was banned from attending her brothers wedding because she has a disability.  The world is a sadder place for it.

I got very depressed after I read the OP's first post - and then I came to Tabby's thoughts, which perfectly expressed my feelings.  Intolerance is despicable.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: KarenK on September 09, 2012, 10:13:15 AM
Bully, bigot, superficial, shallow, malicious or misguided, stupid, posters too harsh, posters too nice, red herrings, blue herrings, green herrings...

A woman was banned from attending her brothers wedding because she has a disability.  The world is a sadder place for it.

Well said, Tabby. Well said!

I think Susan's plan to talk to her brother is absolutely the way to go. Dave needs to know what kind of woman is planning to marry, and conversely, if he is on board with excluding Susan from his wedding, Susan needs to know where she stands.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: Vall on September 09, 2012, 10:50:36 AM
Posting for updates.  I don't have anything to add that hasn't already been said.  I hope she can get things straightened out with her brother when they meet for lunch.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: Steve on September 09, 2012, 10:59:26 AM
me too  8)
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: Roe on September 09, 2012, 11:12:16 AM
Bully, bigot, superficial, shallow, malicious or misguided, stupid, posters too harsh, posters too nice, red herrings, blue herrings, green herrings...

A woman was banned from attending her brothers wedding because she has a disability.  The world is a sadder place for it.

Well said, Tabby. Well said!

I think Susan's plan to talk to her brother is absolutely the way to go. Dave needs to know what kind of woman is planning to marry, and conversely, if he is on board with excluding Susan from his wedding, Susan needs to know where she stands.

Huge pod!  I hope her brother thinks about the type of person he is marrying.  This says much about her character.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: Amara on September 09, 2012, 11:42:10 AM
Louise recently organized an outing to select bridemaids dresses.  Susan was unable to attend due to a work commitment.  Louise later emailed Susan picture of the dresses selected: a knee-length halter top for the other 3 bridemaids and a high-necked, long sleeved dress for Susan. . . . Louise replied that Susan had to wear the prosthetic arm and the chosen dress, as the missing portion of Susan's arm makes Louise uncomfortable.  Furthermore, if Susan refused, then Louise would like her to not only resign from the bridal party but not attend the wedding! . . . Dave, for the record, doesn't want to be put in the middle.


I went back to the original post because I wanted to be certain I remembered the details about Dave. I am by no means saying Dave's inaction is right, but I wonder if he sees this as a "dress" spat rather than what it really is and that's why he doesn't want to get involved. Wedding planning? That's for the women. Bridal and bridesmaid dress? That's for the women. Cake, venue, guests--all for the women.

And before anyone jumps on me saying the wedding is for both, I agree. But Dave may well have the mindset that the problem is much "simpler" and one-dimensional than it actually is. And I wonder if that is why he doesn't want to be put "in the middle." Because he views it as just a dress dispute.

Just a thought ...
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: Elfmama on September 09, 2012, 11:57:19 AM
I think you may have hit on it, Amara.  "It's just a dress, like any other dress.  Why do they want ME to get involved?"   ::)

Susan needs to hammer her brother over the head and make him see that the dress is only a symptom of Louise's attitude toward her, just like a cough is only a symptom of pneumonia.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: RingTailedLemur on September 09, 2012, 12:00:04 PM
I think you may have hit on it, Amara.  "It's just a dress, like any other dress.  Why do they want ME to get involved?"   ::)

Susan needs to hammer her brother over the head and make him see that the dress is only a symptom of Louise's attitude toward her, just like a cough is only a symptom of pneumonia.

That could be what Louise is telling him.  "I picked out a lovely dress for her and she refused to wear it!"
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: LeveeWoman on September 09, 2012, 12:05:17 PM
I think you may have hit on it, Amara.  "It's just a dress, like any other dress.  Why do they want ME to get involved?"   ::)

Susan needs to hammer her brother over the head and make him see that the dress is only a symptom of Louise's attitude toward her, just like a cough is only a symptom of pneumonia.

That could be what Louise is telling him.  "I picked out a lovely dress for her and she refused to wear it!"

That's why Susan needs to take a copy of the e-mail exchange with her to her lunch with Dave.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: Starchasm on September 09, 2012, 12:24:08 PM
I think you may have hit on it, Amara.  "It's just a dress, like any other dress.  Why do they want ME to get involved?"   ::)

Susan needs to hammer her brother over the head and make him see that the dress is only a symptom of Louise's attitude toward her, just like a cough is only a symptom of pneumonia.

That could be what Louise is telling him.  "I picked out a lovely dress for her and she refused to wear it!"

I was thinking along the same lines.  That's why I'm glad she's talking to her brother.  She needs to lay it out simply.  "Louise told me that if I was not willing to wear my prosthetic, then I am not only no longer in the bridal party, but am also uninvited from the wedding."

If he still says he doesn't want to be "in the middle"...well...then Susan knows where she stands with her brother.  I usually don't support pitting family against spouses/SOs, but in this case Louise's behavior is appalling.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: steelstress on September 09, 2012, 12:29:46 PM
I think you may have hit on it, Amara.  "It's just a dress, like any other dress.  Why do they want ME to get involved?"   ::)

Susan needs to hammer her brother over the head and make him see that the dress is only a symptom of Louise's attitude toward her, just like a cough is only a symptom of pneumonia.

That could be what Louise is telling him.  "I picked out a lovely dress for her and she refused to wear it!"

Exactly.  When I read that Susan will have lunch with Dave "in a few days", Dave will probably mention it to Louise who will then launch a preemptive attack, or simply show up for the lunch.  Susan should have just addressed it with Dave the first moment she got.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: jemma on September 09, 2012, 12:32:48 PM
Why doesn't Susan tell Dave that she doesn't want to wear her arm to the wedding, and she was a little confused by Susan's email.  He still wants her to come right?  Just not in the bridal party. Then Dave says of course and life moves on.  Or Dave says, please work out a way to be a bridesmaid, it is really important to me, and Susan gets the dress and wears it without her prosthetic.  I think that this does not need to be quite so fraught and adversarial.  And for the record, I think a request to wear a prothetic arm that someone already has and bought voluntarily is along the same lines as asking someone to wear a particular set of shoes that she already owns but hates for some reason.  And I would say that as the bride, Louise was in a position to make that request.  Ideally Susan would have inwardly sighed, worn the arm for the ceremony, and taken it off for the reception.   But Louise was rude rude rude to say that Susan's appearance makes her uncomfortable.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: RingTailedLemur on September 09, 2012, 12:34:54 PM
Why doesn't Susan tell Dave that she doesn't want to wear her arm to the wedding, and she was a little confused by Susan's email.  He still wants her to come right?  Just not in the bridal party. Then Dave says of course and life moves on.  Or Dave says, please work out a way to be a bridesmaid, it is really important to me, and Susan gets the dress and wears it without her prosthetic.  I think that this does not need to be quite so fraught and adversarial.  And for the record, I think a request to wear a prothetic arm that someone already has and bought voluntarily is along the same lines as asking someone to wear a particular set of shoes that she already owns but hates for some reason.  And I would say that as the bride, Louise was in a position to make that request.  Ideally Susan would have inwardly sighed, worn the arm for the ceremony, and taken it off for the reception.   But Louise was rude rude rude to say that Susan's appearance makes her uncomfortable.

And then ban them from the wedding of their brother if they refuse?

This isn't just a pair of shoes - it is an object which is not only unnecessary but causes discomfort and prevents Susan using her arm!
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: Acadianna on September 09, 2012, 12:38:17 PM
Bully, bigot, superficial, shallow, malicious or misguided, stupid, posters too harsh, posters too nice, red herrings, blue herrings, green herrings...

A woman was banned from attending her brothers wedding because she has a disability.  The world is a sadder place for it.

Extremely well said!!!
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: thlayly on September 09, 2012, 12:38:44 PM
 I wouldn't dream of asking anyone to wear a prothesis for me for any reason.

I do not feel it's like asking someone to wear a specific shoe or dress or whatever, which is expected at a wedding.

But then, I wouldn't require anyone to wear a specific shoe either (my bridesmaids wore whatever shoes they had and got to choose whatever dress style they liked in any shade of purple or green they preferred).

I think Susan has every right to decline wearing her prothesis, and Louise should never have made the request she made.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: Jaelle on September 09, 2012, 01:57:58 PM
I also agree with Amara. Dave may be seeing this as a simple dress spat. And who knows what Lousie has told him?

When DH and I were planning our wedding, my MIL-to-be decided that the florist I had already booked (from my tiny hometown, where the wedding would take place) wasn't good enough and that we needed to switch it to the florist that she, personally, had picked out for my SIL-to-be's wedding a year earlier. She launched a slightly nasty campaign, including saying she wouldn't wear a corsage from my florist.

DH said the same thing: "Oh, no. You're not putting me in the middle." I had to sit down with him and explain how it wasn't merely a disagreement about flowers, but that, to me, it was about MIL disrespecting plans we had made. ("We" although DH wanted nothing to do with flowers! I did give him the chance. ;))

Fortunately, DH "got it." MIL backed down. We didn't order her a corsage from our florist; she wore one she paid for herself from Other Florist.  ::)   (I think my mom's was much nicer while hers looked generic, but whatever.)

(To this day, I still don't know what she had against that florist. It was a very small business, but I'd seen their work and they gave us a wonderful deal. They did a fantastic job!)
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: BarensMom on September 09, 2012, 02:00:52 PM
Not an expert, but I know a person who has this disability.  She has had numerous different arms, all of which caused discomfort and, in some cases, wounds.  She sees her prosthetic arm as an hindrance, so rarely wears it.  Since she was born that way, she doesn't miss the lack and has managed quite well for herself.

Louise probably doesn't realize this or doesn't care, because the sight of it makes HER uncomfortable.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: Aeris on September 09, 2012, 02:46:50 PM
Why doesn't Susan tell Dave that she doesn't want to wear her arm to the wedding, and she was a little confused by Susan's email.  He still wants her to come right?  Just not in the bridal party. Then Dave says of course and life moves on.  Or Dave says, please work out a way to be a bridesmaid, it is really important to me, and Susan gets the dress and wears it without her prosthetic.  I think that this does not need to be quite so fraught and adversarial.  And for the record, I think a request to wear a prothetic arm that someone already has and bought voluntarily is along the same lines as asking someone to wear a particular set of shoes that she already owns but hates for some reason.  And I would say that as the bride, Louise was in a position to make that request.  Ideally Susan would have inwardly sighed, worn the arm for the ceremony, and taken it off for the reception.   But Louise was rude rude rude to say that Susan's appearance makes her uncomfortable.

1) A prosthesis is not comparable to a pair of shoes for a wedding.

Not all requests for attire by a bride are equal, or equally reasonable. We expect a bride to perhaps choose a dress, maybe a shoe and hairstyle, and there it ends. It is not equally as reasonable for brides to request their 'maids sport tans, or clown wigs, stilts, or faux appendages of any sort.


2) Even if it were, it would be a request the bride must accept a 'no' to.

If I owned a pair of shoes that I generally chose NOT to wear, that were uncomfortable and irritating, a bride could ask me if I would be willing to wear them. And my answer would be no. And she would be required by etiquette to accept that 'no' and be chill about it.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: HorseFreak on September 09, 2012, 02:57:53 PM
Why doesn't Susan tell Dave that she doesn't want to wear her arm to the wedding, and she was a little confused by Susan's email.  He still wants her to come right?  Just not in the bridal party. Then Dave says of course and life moves on.  Or Dave says, please work out a way to be a bridesmaid, it is really important to me, and Susan gets the dress and wears it without her prosthetic.  I think that this does not need to be quite so fraught and adversarial.  And for the record, I think a request to wear a prothetic arm that someone already has and bought voluntarily is along the same lines as asking someone to wear a particular set of shoes that she already owns but hates for some reason.  And I would say that as the bride, Louise was in a position to make that request.  Ideally Susan would have inwardly sighed, worn the arm for the ceremony, and taken it off for the reception.   But Louise was rude rude rude to say that Susan's appearance makes her uncomfortable.

1) A prosthesis is not comparable to a pair of shoes for a wedding.

Not all requests for attire by a bride are equal, or equally reasonable. We expect a bride to perhaps choose a dress, maybe a shoe and hairstyle, and there it ends. It is not equally as reasonable for brides to request their 'maids sport tans, or clown wigs, stilts, or faux appendages of any sort.


2) Even if it were, it would be a request the bride must accept a 'no' to.

If I owned a pair of shoes that I generally chose NOT to wear, that were uncomfortable and irritating, a bride could ask me if I would be willing to wear them. And my answer would be no. And she would be required by etiquette to accept that 'no' and be chill about it.

I agree. This sounds more similar to my friend who had ankle surgery in elementary school due to a bone deformity. She cannot wear anything but a flat shoe as it causes her severe pain. I would never tell her she had to wear 2" strappy shoes in my wedding for aesthetic reasons. While brides can technically choose the shoes she likes, I can't imagine telling her she has to hurt for me!
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: buvezdevin on September 09, 2012, 04:32:31 PM
Why doesn't Susan tell Dave that she doesn't want to wear her arm to the wedding, and she was a little confused by Susan's email.  He still wants her to come right?  Just not in the bridal party. Then Dave says of course and life moves on.  Or Dave says, please work out a way to be a bridesmaid, it is really important to me, and Susan gets the dress and wears it without her prosthetic.  I think that this does not need to be quite so fraught and adversarial.  And for the record, I think a request to wear a prothetic arm that someone already has and bought voluntarily is along the same lines as asking someone to wear a particular set of shoes that she already owns but hates for some reason.  And I would say that as the bride, Louise was in a position to make that request.  Ideally Susan would have inwardly sighed, worn the arm for the ceremony, and taken it off for the reception.   But Louise was rude rude rude to say that Susan's appearance makes her uncomfortable.

1) A prosthesis is not comparable to a pair of shoes for a wedding.

Not all requests for attire by a bride are equal, or equally reasonable. We expect a bride to perhaps choose a dress, maybe a shoe and hairstyle, and there it ends. It is not equally as reasonable for brides to request their 'maids sport tans, or clown wigs, stilts, or faux appendages of any sort.


2) Even if it were, it would be a request the bride must accept a 'no' to.

If I owned a pair of shoes that I generally chose NOT to wear, that were uncomfortable and irritating, a bride could ask me if I would be willing to wear them. And my answer would be no. And she would be required by etiquette to accept that 'no' and be chill about it.

I agree. This sounds more similar to my friend who had ankle surgery in elementary school due to a bone deformity. She cannot wear anything but a flat shoe as it causes her severe pain. I would never tell her she had to wear 2" strappy shoes in my wedding for aesthetic reasons. While brides can technically choose the shoes she likes, I can't imagine telling her she has to hurt for me!

I agree with all the above.

When I first read the OP, and when I have revisited it, it seems pretty clear that Louise was well aware that Susan has a prosthetic, possibly from having seen Susan wear it.  I don't think Louise would have been rude to tactfully ask if Susan would wear her prosthetic to the wedding, but she went way off the rails of anything acceptable to demand it.

That said, and acknowledging that Louise's insistence, and manner of communicating are over the top and beyond the bounds of civility, I wonder if Louise's version of the situation would be "Susan wears her prosthetic for other events, I have seen her wear it, but she refuses to wear it for our wedding!". That view would not justify her communications to Susan at all, and I hope when Susan speaks with her brother she very directly explains the complete disrespect Louise has shown Susan.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: gramma dishes on September 09, 2012, 04:48:58 PM
...   When I first read the OP, and when I have revisited it, it seems pretty clear that Louise was well aware that Susan has a prosthetic, possibly from having seen Susan wear it.  I don't think Louise would have been rude to tactfully ask if Susan would wear her prosthetic to the wedding, but she went way off the rails of anything acceptable to demand it.

...   I wonder if Louise's version of the situation would be "Susan wears her prosthetic for other events, I have seen her wear it, but she refuses to wear it for our wedding!".

I agree that IF Louise didn't know that the prosthetic was actually painful for Susan, she might possibly have expected that Susan would wear it because it is, after all, a special occasion. 

But even assuming that Susan HAD been okay with wearing it for at least the wedding part, Louise wanted that prosthetic covered up by a totally different style of dress than the other bridesmaids were wearing and that would have called even MORE attention to it because everyone would have wondered "Why is that one bridesmaid wearing a dress so totally different from the others?"

So it wasn't just a matter of Louise wanting her to use the prosthetic.  Even if Susan wore it, Louise wanted it out of sight.  I wouldn't be surprised to hear that she also wanted Susan to wear gloves because the hand might not look "real" enough and she was afraid someone might notice it.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: SuperMartianRobotGirl on September 09, 2012, 04:52:48 PM
My guess is that she cares more about what is visible in the photos than she cares about the people involved. This is a pet peeve of mine - when people choose bridesmaids based on how pretty they'll be in the photos rather than their relationship with them.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: buvezdevin on September 09, 2012, 05:05:23 PM
...   When I first read the OP, and when I have revisited it, it seems pretty clear that Louise was well aware that Susan has a prosthetic, possibly from having seen Susan wear it.  I don't think Louise would have been rude to tactfully ask if Susan would wear her prosthetic to the wedding, but she went way off the rails of anything acceptable to demand it.

...   I wonder if Louise's version of the situation would be "Susan wears her prosthetic for other events, I have seen her wear it, but she refuses to wear it for our wedding!".

I agree that IF Louise didn't know that the prosthetic was actually painful for Susan, she might possibly have expected that Susan would wear it because it is, after all, a special occasion. 

But even assuming that Susan HAD been okay with wearing it for at least the wedding part, Louise wanted that prosthetic covered up by a totally different style of dress than the other bridesmaids were wearing and that would have called even MORE attention to it because everyone would have wondered "Why is that one bridesmaid wearing a dress so totally different from the others?"

So it wasn't just a matter of Louise wanting her to use the prosthetic.  Even if Susan wore it, Louise wanted it out of sight.  I wouldn't be surprised to hear that she also wanted Susan to wear gloves because the hand might not look "real" enough and she was afraid someone might notice it.

Gramma dishes, as is often the case, I completely agree with you.  The totality of Louise's disrespect of Susan, both in terms of physical comfort and psychological comfort in feeling well regarded as a person are what I was referring to when I closed my post stating that I hope Susan discusses it in full with her brother.

It isn't "simply" that Louise had an expectation which Susan, for valid reasons, will not comply with.  It is that Louise managed to go, in record speed, from a bad presumption to active insult to banning a family member from a wedding for not putting the bride's aesthetic preferences above physical well being, with an incredibly hurtful side serving of "your physical presence, unaltered, is disturbing."
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: CharlieBraun on September 09, 2012, 05:15:02 PM
I think you may have hit on it, Amara.  "It's just a dress, like any other dress.  Why do they want ME to get involved?"   ::)

Susan needs to hammer her brother over the head and make him see that the dress is only a symptom of Louise's attitude toward her, just like a cough is only a symptom of pneumonia.

That could be what Louise is telling him.  "I picked out a lovely dress for her and she refused to wear it!"

Agreed.  It could be that Louise has taken it a step further in her own mind:  "I tried to pick something that was respectful of her problem and keep her covered up so everyone could relax, but she just won't fall in line!  What could I do?  She won't even be reasonable!"

Or some such nonsense.

In the words of Mr. Braun:  "Susan is missing one appendage, but her brother sure is missing another."
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: RegionMom on September 09, 2012, 07:00:08 PM
Wouldn't it be that he is missing a couple of appendages??   >:D
OO
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: HonorH on September 09, 2012, 07:11:35 PM
I'm reminded of a variation on Clarke's First Law that I once heard: "Sufficiently advanced ignorance is indistinguishable from malice." It doesn't really matter whether Louise is acting out of shallow stupidity or deliberate malice. Bottom line is, she's treating Susan horribly. That's what Susan needs to get across to Dave--and to ask him if he's really okay with this, because it's the kind of thing that could ruin their relationship.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: exitzero on September 09, 2012, 07:21:07 PM
My guess is that she cares more about what is visible in the photos than she cares about the people involved. This is a pet peeve of mine - when people choose bridesmaids based on how pretty they'll be in the photos rather than their relationship with them.

I never got this, either. Why not go to a modeling agency and pick out some strangers who fit your criteria? After all, if the look is all you are after, that will solve the problem!
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: AmysAuntie on September 09, 2012, 08:21:28 PM
Bully, bigot, superficial, shallow, malicious or misguided, stupid, posters too harsh, posters too nice, red herrings, blue herrings, green herrings...

A woman was banned from attending her brothers wedding because she has a disability.  The world is a sadder place for it.

::Uprises to give Tabby a standing ovation::
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: Piratelvr1121 on September 09, 2012, 08:40:13 PM
Wouldn't it be that he is missing a couple of appendages??   >:D
OO

No foolin'!
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: Bluenomi on September 09, 2012, 08:46:47 PM
My guess is that she cares more about what is visible in the photos than she cares about the people involved. This is a pet peeve of mine - when people choose bridesmaids based on how pretty they'll be in the photos rather than their relationship with them.

If they have a decent photographer that wouldn't even be an issue. I have a large scar on one arm and it wasn't until half way through our wedding photos I noticed the photograhper, without me saying anything, was carefully arranging the poses so you couldn't see it. It's not hard. It's as simple as making the side with the full arm face the camera. SIL would get her photos that look 'normal' and Susan doesn't need to wear her prosthetic she hates.

My MOH was 8 months pregnant on my wedding day. I didn't once think about how she would look in the photos. Any suggestion I removed her from the wedding party because a 'fat' bridesmaid would ruin my photos and my day was met with a quizzical look and a 'why would I do that?'
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: fluffy on September 09, 2012, 09:35:15 PM
I really really hope that Dave changes his tune after lunch with his sister.  :-[
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: asb8 on September 09, 2012, 10:04:27 PM
Susan's husband has settled at least one side of the equation.  He let their 2-year-old DD play with the arm.  The arm is now in several pieces.   >:D  She likes to play sword fighting with whatever she can get her hands on.

Susan is having lunch with Dave on Tuesday.  Louise will not be present.  Hopefully Dave will see sense and deal with it before it goes any further.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: Calypso on September 09, 2012, 10:09:27 PM
Susan's husband has settled at least one side of the equation.  He let their 2-year-old DD play with the arm.  The arm is now in several pieces.   >:D  She likes to play sword fighting with whatever she can get her hands on.

Susan is having lunch with Dave on Tuesday.  Louise will not be present.  Hopefully Dave will see sense and deal with it before it goes any further.

If ever a child needed to be spoiled with masses of excellent cookies, this one does!  :D 8)
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15
Post by: floridamom on September 09, 2012, 10:22:23 PM
Susan's husband has settled at least one side of the equation.  He let their 2-year-old DD play with the arm.  The arm is now in several pieces.   >:D  She likes to play sword fighting with whatever she can get her hands on.

Susan is having lunch with Dave on Tuesday.  Louise will not be present.  Hopefully Dave will see sense and deal with it before it goes any further.

If ever a child needed to be spoiled with masses of excellent cookies, this one does!  :D 8)

I agree as well... lots of cookies.. with hugs and kisses too!   :) :) :)
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15
Post by: gadget--gal on September 10, 2012, 12:19:21 AM
Susan's husband has settled at least one side of the equation.  He let their 2-year-old DD play with the arm.  The arm is now in several pieces.   >:D  She likes to play sword fighting with whatever she can get her hands on.

Susan is having lunch with Dave on Tuesday.  Louise will not be present.  Hopefully Dave will see sense and deal with it before it goes any further.

I like!
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15
Post by: PastryGoddess on September 10, 2012, 12:53:30 AM
Susan's husband has settled at least one side of the equation.  He let their 2-year-old DD play with the arm.  The arm is now in several pieces.   >:D  She likes to play sword fighting with whatever she can get her hands on.

Susan is having lunch with Dave on Tuesday.  Louise will not be present.  Hopefully Dave will see sense and deal with it before it goes any further.

HAHA!  :D  That is quite possibly biggest laugh I've had all day.  Go DD! may the force be with you *snicker*
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: AngelicGamer on September 10, 2012, 01:07:15 AM
Susan's husband has settled at least one side of the equation.  He let their 2-year-old DD play with the arm.  The arm is now in several pieces.   >:D  She likes to play sword fighting with whatever she can get her hands on.

Susan is having lunch with Dave on Tuesday.  Louise will not be present.  Hopefully Dave will see sense and deal with it before it goes any further.

I nominate Susan's DD for an awesome award.  Best somewhat update ever.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: nuit93 on September 10, 2012, 01:59:01 AM
Susan's husband has settled at least one side of the equation.  He let their 2-year-old DD play with the arm.  The arm is now in several pieces.   >:D  She likes to play sword fighting with whatever she can get her hands on.

Susan is having lunch with Dave on Tuesday.  Louise will not be present.  Hopefully Dave will see sense and deal with it before it goes any further.

Best.  Kid.  Ever.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15
Post by: girlysprite on September 10, 2012, 03:47:18 AM
Kid is going to be so confused.. "Wait, I broke something while I was playing and now I'm getting praise and cookies??"
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: Piratelvr1121 on September 10, 2012, 05:33:54 AM
Susan's husband has settled at least one side of the equation.  He let their 2-year-old DD play with the arm.  The arm is now in several pieces.   >:D  She likes to play sword fighting with whatever she can get her hands on.

Susan is having lunch with Dave on Tuesday.  Louise will not be present.  Hopefully Dave will see sense and deal with it before it goes any further.

Girl after my own heart!!   The cool is strong with that one! :)
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15
Post by: Ygraine on September 10, 2012, 05:54:53 AM
My gob is smacked.  Unbelievable!  I won't comment any further on this part as it has been so beautifully addressed by others. 

My evil counterpart wants to know if this is the first time Louise has made this "discomfort" known to Dave.  If not, Dave needs to think about whether or not he would have continued to date Louise had she made this known earlier in the game.   If she did make it known earlier, Susan has her answer, sadly. 
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15
Post by: LifeOnPluto on September 10, 2012, 06:24:13 AM
I am very much hoping that Dave doesn't have the full story. I can imagine Louise telling him something like "I asked Susan to wear this particular Bridesmaid's dress and she refused! Now she may not be coming to the wedding at all!"

Susan needs to tell Dave exactly what happened. It's not "tattling" on Louise, it's simply giving him the bare facts -  that his fiancee is threatening to ban her from the wedding if she doesn't wear her prosthetic arm.

I also think that until Dave clearly tells Susan to her face that "I'm siding with Louise - I don't want you coming to our wedding if you don't wear the arm / dress" then Susan should definitely attend the wedding. She should NOT be intimidated into missing her own brother's wedding.

If Dave does know the full story, that's simply despicable. Susan should treat him and Louise with frosty coolness for the rest of their lives.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: Dr. F. on September 10, 2012, 07:34:16 AM
My guess is that she cares more about what is visible in the photos than she cares about the people involved. This is a pet peeve of mine - when people choose bridesmaids based on how pretty they'll be in the photos rather than their relationship with them.

I never got this, either. Why not go to a modeling agency and pick out some strangers who fit your criteria? After all, if the look is all you are after, that will solve the problem!

OH, don't suggest this! Some idiot somewhere will do it, and the next thing you know, there'll be modeling agencies advertising "wedding packages" of carefully chosen attractive (but not TOOO attractive!) strangers for the wedding photos. Extra if you want them to stand in for recreations of the vows and, of course, they have to come to the reception for staged "candids."

"Oh, I think I'll take the one-grandmother package with one female and one male sibling, please. No, don't worry about a stand-in for my step-mom. I like to pretend she doesn't exist anyway."

I think I just made myself ill.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: exitzero on September 10, 2012, 08:01:19 AM
My guess is that she cares more about what is visible in the photos than she cares about the people involved. This is a pet peeve of mine - when people choose bridesmaids based on how pretty they'll be in the photos rather than their relationship with them.

I never got this, either. Why not go to a modeling agency and pick out some strangers who fit your criteria? After all, if the look is all you are after, that will solve the problem!

OH, don't suggest this! Some idiot somewhere will do it, and the next thing you know, there'll be modeling agencies advertising "wedding packages" of carefully chosen attractive (but not TOOO attractive!) strangers for the wedding photos. Extra if you want them to stand in for recreations of the vows and, of course, they have to come to the reception for staged "candids."

"Oh, I think I'll take the one-grandmother package with one female and one male sibling, please. No, don't worry about a stand-in for my step-mom. I like to pretend she doesn't exist anyway."

I think I just made myself ill.

I think you just made yourself rich!
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15
Post by: Morticia on September 10, 2012, 08:07:36 AM
It's funny; DH and I were just discussing the concept of rental attendants a few weeks ago. It came about from a discussion of his work in the funeral biz. Amongst his other duties is "pallbearer for hire." It seemed like a logical extension.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15
Post by: greencat on September 10, 2012, 08:28:08 AM
Well, I can see funerals needing pallbearers - you can have a lot of friends and family, and still be lacking enough strong (and willing) people, especially considering that people have much smaller families these days.

And yes, unfortunately, with the whole Bridezilla trend of wedding party members being self-propelled accessories, I can definitely see a possibility of for-hire attendants.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15
Post by: Hillia on September 10, 2012, 08:44:25 AM
It's funny; DH and I were just discussing the concept of rental attendants a few weeks ago. It came about from a discussion of his work in the funeral biz. Amongst his other duties is "pallbearer for hire." It seemed like a logical extension.

Actually, back in the day, hired mourners were very common.  I believe in many cases people hired the very poor in town, who would normally be begging, to follow the funeral procession and wail.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: WillyNilly on September 10, 2012, 09:28:23 AM
My guess is that she cares more about what is visible in the photos than she cares about the people involved. This is a pet peeve of mine - when people choose bridesmaids based on how pretty they'll be in the photos rather than their relationship with them.

I never got this, either. Why not go to a modeling agency and pick out some strangers who fit your criteria? After all, if the look is all you are after, that will solve the problem!

OH, don't suggest this! Some idiot somewhere will do it, and the next thing you know, there'll be modeling agencies advertising "wedding packages" of carefully chosen attractive (but not TOOO attractive!) strangers for the wedding photos. Extra if you want them to stand in for recreations of the vows and, of course, they have to come to the reception for staged "candids."

"Oh, I think I'll take the one-grandmother package with one female and one male sibling, please. No, don't worry about a stand-in for my step-mom. I like to pretend she doesn't exist anyway."

I think I just made myself ill.

Back when the economy was booming I worked in the party industry specializing in mega-mitzvahs - bar/bat mitzvahs of the <$50k variety.  It was standard practice to have hired "party starters" (aka "dancers") - attractive older teens/early 20-somethings to get the dance floor started & dance with guests, to pose in photos (even official posed ones like cake cutting and candle lighting and the big entrance), etc.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
Post by: artk2002 on September 10, 2012, 10:38:19 AM
How is this not a bullying situation?  Honest question.  I can't see it as anything else.

Because there is no pattern of behavior. It is not bullying be nasty or mean to someone in a one time incident. If it was, everyone on the planet would be a bully, because everyone has done something awful to another person at some point. If everyone is a bully then the term loses all meaning.

Bullying doesn't require a pattern of behavior. It can be a single instance. Bullying also isn't "doing something awful," it's some more specific behaviors. In this case, trying to force someone to do something (wear the prosthesis) with the threat of social consequences ("Susan didn't go to her own brother's wedding.")
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: Moray on September 10, 2012, 10:41:52 AM
Susan's husband has settled at least one side of the equation.  He let their 2-year-old DD play with the arm.  The arm is now in several pieces.   >:D  She likes to play sword fighting with whatever she can get her hands on.

Susan is having lunch with Dave on Tuesday.  Louise will not be present.  Hopefully Dave will see sense and deal with it before it goes any further.

Wow! How the heck did that happen? All the prosthetics I've seen have been extremely sturdy, usually made of fiberglass or other super-durable materials.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: Sharnita on September 10, 2012, 10:50:07 AM
Susan's husband has settled at least one side of the equation.  He let their 2-year-old DD play with the arm.  The arm is now in several pieces.   >:D  She likes to play sword fighting with whatever she can get her hands on.

Susan is having lunch with Dave on Tuesday.  Louise will not be present.  Hopefully Dave will see sense and deal with it before it goes any further.

Wow! How the heck did that happen? All the prosthetics I've seen have been extremely sturdy, usually made of fiberglass or other super-durable materials.

OP mentioned that this prosthetic was just for looks.  I think the prosthetics you describe are also for utility.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: Moray on September 10, 2012, 10:54:20 AM
Susan's husband has settled at least one side of the equation.  He let their 2-year-old DD play with the arm.  The arm is now in several pieces.   >:D  She likes to play sword fighting with whatever she can get her hands on.

Susan is having lunch with Dave on Tuesday.  Louise will not be present.  Hopefully Dave will see sense and deal with it before it goes any further.

Wow! How the heck did that happen? All the prosthetics I've seen have been extremely sturdy, usually made of fiberglass or other super-durable materials.

OP mentioned that this prosthetic was just for looks.  I think the prosthetics you describe are also for utility.

I suppose that's a good point, but the "passive" or cosmetic only prosthesis I've encountered have been designed to take a good bit of abuse. Those things are expensive, too!
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: AngelicGamer on September 10, 2012, 10:58:51 AM
Susan's husband has settled at least one side of the equation.  He let their 2-year-old DD play with the arm.  The arm is now in several pieces.   >:D  She likes to play sword fighting with whatever she can get her hands on.

Susan is having lunch with Dave on Tuesday.  Louise will not be present.  Hopefully Dave will see sense and deal with it before it goes any further.

Wow! How the heck did that happen? All the prosthetics I've seen have been extremely sturdy, usually made of fiberglass or other super-durable materials.

OP mentioned that this prosthetic was just for looks.  I think the prosthetics you describe are also for utility.

I suppose that's a good point, but the "passive" or cosmetic only prosthesis I've encountered have been designed to take a good bit of abuse. Those things are expensive, too!

I'm thinking it depends on when it was made.  If it's 5 to 10 years old or more and went up against something that's been made within a year or two, the arm loses.  :)
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: artk2002 on September 10, 2012, 10:59:41 AM
I suppose that's a good point, but the "passive" or cosmetic only prosthesis I've encountered have been designed to take a good bit of abuse. Those things are expensive, too!

Never underestimate the power of the Dark Side Enthusiastic 2 Year-Old!
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: Piratelvr1121 on September 10, 2012, 11:27:29 AM
I suppose that's a good point, but the "passive" or cosmetic only prosthesis I've encountered have been designed to take a good bit of abuse. Those things are expensive, too!

Never underestimate the power of the Dark Side Enthusiastic 2 Year-Old!

Who is imagining that she's up against Darth Maul/Lord Voldemort/Blackbeard. :)
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15
Post by: greencat on September 10, 2012, 11:36:35 AM
The three most destructive forces known to man:  kittens, puppies, and small children   ;D
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15
Post by: PastryGoddess on September 10, 2012, 12:33:25 PM
The three most destructive forces known to man:  kittens, puppies, and small children   ;D
don't forget rabbits
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: DoubleTrouble on September 10, 2012, 12:34:24 PM
Susan's husband has settled at least one side of the equation.  He let their 2-year-old DD play with the arm.  The arm is now in several pieces.   >:D  She likes to play sword fighting with whatever she can get her hands on.

Susan is having lunch with Dave on Tuesday.  Louise will not be present.  Hopefully Dave will see sense and deal with it before it goes any further.

If ever a child needed to be spoiled with masses of excellent cookies, this one does!  :D 8)

This is why the forum needs a like button! Cookies, ice cream & candy for that kiddo!
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15
Post by: rashea on September 10, 2012, 12:51:23 PM
I've struggled with deciding whether or not to post this. For a long part of my life, I used a wheelchair (still do sometimes) to control severe knee pain. While I could, and did walk, it was on a day-by-day, and sometimes minute-by-minute decision to endure more pain, rather than dealing with the chair for whatever reason (strength training to inaccessibility). A friend had asked me to be her bridesmaid, and I'd accepted. We met up at a wedding expo that she wanted to attend, and I was using my chair (crowd, plus winter outside, plus just didn't have the spoons to waste). It was there that she expressed shock that I was even considering being able to use my chair for the wedding. I told her that if I was up to walking, I would, but that I couldn't predict that. And that there was no way I'd be able to stand for the whole ceremony, and that I can't kneel. She was aware of all this before, but figured I'd find a way. She kicked me out that day, and I've not spoken to her since.

To me, there is no question that this is horrendous treatment. She's being kicked out because she chooses to not do something uncomfortable and painful, and because she refuses to hide the fact that she has a disability.

I was hoping it was just an assumption, but the bride confirmed it when she suggested that not wearing that dress would mean the sister wasn't even invited to the wedding. That's not ignorance, that's prejudice.

I didn't go around telling people what had happened. And we ran in different circles for the most part. But, when people asked, I told them that I had been asked not to be in the wedding party because my heath wasn't reliable enough that I could be certain not to use my chair. People were horrified. And while I didn't poss the story around, it did get around.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: jedikaiti on September 10, 2012, 12:58:33 PM
Susan's husband has settled at least one side of the equation.  He let their 2-year-old DD play with the arm.  The arm is now in several pieces.   >:D  She likes to play sword fighting with whatever she can get her hands on.

Susan is having lunch with Dave on Tuesday.  Louise will not be present.  Hopefully Dave will see sense and deal with it before it goes any further.

If ever a child needed to be spoiled with masses of excellent cookies, this one does!  :D 8)

Does the kid have a favorite cookie?
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15
Post by: Sharnita on September 10, 2012, 01:01:50 PM
I've struggled with deciding whether or not to post this. For a long part of my life, I used a wheelchair (still do sometimes) to control severe knee pain. While I could, and did walk, it was on a day-by-day, and sometimes minute-by-minute decision to endure more pain, rather than dealing with the chair for whatever reason (strength training to inaccessibility). A friend had asked me to be her bridesmaid, and I'd accepted. We met up at a wedding expo that she wanted to attend, and I was using my chair (crowd, plus winter outside, plus just didn't have the spoons to waste). It was there that she expressed shock that I was even considering being able to use my chair for the wedding. I told her that if I was up to walking, I would, but that I couldn't predict that. And that there was no way I'd be able to stand for the whole ceremony, and that I can't kneel. She was aware of all this before, but figured I'd find a way. She kicked me out that day, and I've not spoken to her since.

To me, there is no question that this is horrendous treatment. She's being kicked out because she chooses to not do something uncomfortable and painful, and because she refuses to hide the fact that she has a disability.

I was hoping it was just an assumption, but the bride confirmed it when she suggested that not wearing that dress would mean the sister wasn't even invited to the wedding. That's not ignorance, that's prejudice.

I didn't go around telling people what had happened. And we ran in different circles for the most part. But, when people asked, I told them that I had been asked not to be in the wedding party because my heath wasn't reliable enough that I could be certain not to use my chair. People were horrified. And while I didn't poss the story around, it did get around.

I am sorry that happened to you.  And I think the way you handled it was gracious.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15
Post by: MyFamily on September 10, 2012, 02:41:58 PM
I've struggled with deciding whether or not to post this. For a long part of my life, I used a wheelchair (still do sometimes) to control severe knee pain. While I could, and did walk, it was on a day-by-day, and sometimes minute-by-minute decision to endure more pain, rather than dealing with the chair for whatever reason (strength training to inaccessibility). A friend had asked me to be her bridesmaid, and I'd accepted. We met up at a wedding expo that she wanted to attend, and I was using my chair (crowd, plus winter outside, plus just didn't have the spoons to waste). It was there that she expressed shock that I was even considering being able to use my chair for the wedding. I told her that if I was up to walking, I would, but that I couldn't predict that. And that there was no way I'd be able to stand for the whole ceremony, and that I can't kneel. She was aware of all this before, but figured I'd find a way. She kicked me out that day, and I've not spoken to her since.

To me, there is no question that this is horrendous treatment. She's being kicked out because she chooses to not do something uncomfortable and painful, and because she refuses to hide the fact that she has a disability.

I was hoping it was just an assumption, but the bride confirmed it when she suggested that not wearing that dress would mean the sister wasn't even invited to the wedding. That's not ignorance, that's prejudice.

I didn't go around telling people what had happened. And we ran in different circles for the most part. But, when people asked, I told them that I had been asked not to be in the wedding party because my heath wasn't reliable enough that I could be certain not to use my chair. People were horrified. And while I didn't poss the story around, it did get around.

I'm so sorry that happened to you.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15
Post by: yokozbornak on September 10, 2012, 02:44:21 PM
I've struggled with deciding whether or not to post this. For a long part of my life, I used a wheelchair (still do sometimes) to control severe knee pain. While I could, and did walk, it was on a day-by-day, and sometimes minute-by-minute decision to endure more pain, rather than dealing with the chair for whatever reason (strength training to inaccessibility). A friend had asked me to be her bridesmaid, and I'd accepted. We met up at a wedding expo that she wanted to attend, and I was using my chair (crowd, plus winter outside, plus just didn't have the spoons to waste). It was there that she expressed shock that I was even considering being able to use my chair for the wedding. I told her that if I was up to walking, I would, but that I couldn't predict that. And that there was no way I'd be able to stand for the whole ceremony, and that I can't kneel. She was aware of all this before, but figured I'd find a way. She kicked me out that day, and I've not spoken to her since.

To me, there is no question that this is horrendous treatment. She's being kicked out because she chooses to not do something uncomfortable and painful, and because she refuses to hide the fact that she has a disability.

I was hoping it was just an assumption, but the bride confirmed it when she suggested that not wearing that dress would mean the sister wasn't even invited to the wedding. That's not ignorance, that's prejudice.

I didn't go around telling people what had happened. And we ran in different circles for the most part. But, when people asked, I told them that I had been asked not to be in the wedding party because my heath wasn't reliable enough that I could be certain not to use my chair. People were horrified. And while I didn't poss the story around, it did get around.

That's just awful.  I am so sorry that someone who was supposed to be a friend treated you that way.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15
Post by: RebeccainGA on September 10, 2012, 03:11:08 PM
Posting for updates. One of my best friends in high school had a prosthetic leg, and it was great fun when he'd come to school with it and freak out substitute teachers and freshmen (we were seniors by then) by removing it in the hallway and putting it in his locker. It was heavy and uncomfortable, and he really only wore it to make his mother happy - but as soon as he got to school, off it came!

If he'd been alive when I got married, he could have been in the wedding with or without it - or wearing a dress for all I cared. This bride is being cruel for aesthetic reasons.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15
Post by: nalapuppy on September 10, 2012, 03:13:04 PM
Add me to the long list of posters saying how horrible this situation is.....and I'm interested to hear any updates too.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15
Post by: Otterpop on September 10, 2012, 03:28:23 PM
So sorry Rashea that you had the same experience.  How shallow!  I can't for the life of me understand the bride's motivation or the brother's passivity.  Can't wait to hear the update.

One of my bridesmaids informed me she was a few weeks pregnant and would be 8 months along by the time of the wedding.  She asked if still wanted her to be a bridesmaid.  I was truly puzzled and told her "Of course."  It didn't occur to me to exclude her for growing a big belly.  She was big as a house in purple satin on stage and in my pictures but it did not matter.  It was special to me to have a good friend stand up for me that day.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15
Post by: Elfmama on September 10, 2012, 04:52:07 PM
Our Best Man slipped on some ice (only patch of ice in San Angelo, I think) and broke his ankle the day before our wedding.  He was on crutches, but we had absolutely no intentions of getting someone else.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15
Post by: VorFemme on September 10, 2012, 06:02:14 PM
Our Best Man slipped on some ice (only patch of ice in San Angelo, I think) and broke his ankle the day before our wedding.  He was on crutches, but we had absolutely no intentions of getting someone else.

Which year?  It does snow about every four to seven years (and we found out the hard way not to drive near the college when the drivers who have never driven in snow are out there - about 98% of the school population, btw).  I think it was $1000 damage in 1976(?) to the driver's side of the car when she floored it and tried to steer away from us while sliding across the icy patch on the road (between the main campus and married housing).  VorGuy wished he'd dropped me off on the other side of campus...you'd think a bright red Ford Pinto (I did mention that we were young college students?  it was our first ever new car - and an accident magnet, from what I remember) would have been easier to spot in snow.

He took me to work (parking lot on a hill off Knickerbocker - the Pizza Hut there near the highway and the six screen cinema).  It was...interesting in the snow.  He came to get me that night, as I had NO experience driving on snow in the dark (learned to drive in the San Angelo area - I'd seen snow about three times in junior high, high school, and college).
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15
Post by: kherbert05 on September 10, 2012, 07:54:22 PM
I've struggled with deciding whether or not to post this. For a long part of my life, I used a wheelchair (still do sometimes) to control severe knee pain. While I could, and did walk, it was on a day-by-day, and sometimes minute-by-minute decision to endure more pain, rather than dealing with the chair for whatever reason (strength training to inaccessibility). A friend had asked me to be her bridesmaid, and I'd accepted. We met up at a wedding expo that she wanted to attend, and I was using my chair (crowd, plus winter outside, plus just didn't have the spoons to waste). It was there that she expressed shock that I was even considering being able to use my chair for the wedding. I told her that if I was up to walking, I would, but that I couldn't predict that. And that there was no way I'd be able to stand for the whole ceremony, and that I can't kneel. She was aware of all this before, but figured I'd find a way. She kicked me out that day, and I've not spoken to her since.

To me, there is no question that this is horrendous treatment. She's being kicked out because she chooses to not do something uncomfortable and painful, and because she refuses to hide the fact that she has a disability.

I was hoping it was just an assumption, but the bride confirmed it when she suggested that not wearing that dress would mean the sister wasn't even invited to the wedding. That's not ignorance, that's prejudice.

I didn't go around telling people what had happened. And we ran in different circles for the most part. But, when people asked, I told them that I had been asked not to be in the wedding party because my heath wasn't reliable enough that I could be certain not to use my chair. People were horrified. And while I didn't poss the story around, it did get around.
Your former friend was an idiot. My sister and BIL didn't kneel at their own Catholic wedding. Sis had a soccer + track injury (This was before she broke both knees skiing), and I can't remember how BIL hurt his knee probably football or surfing or driving his ATV off the cliff. They had these chairs at the altar and they sat when the congregation kneelled. The attendants were sitting in the front pews at this point and only those that were Catholic  or Episcopal kneelled.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15
Post by: Acadianna on September 10, 2012, 07:55:25 PM
I've struggled with deciding whether or not to post this. For a long part of my life, I used a wheelchair (still do sometimes) to control severe knee pain. While I could, and did walk, it was on a day-by-day, and sometimes minute-by-minute decision to endure more pain, rather than dealing with the chair for whatever reason (strength training to inaccessibility). A friend had asked me to be her bridesmaid, and I'd accepted. We met up at a wedding expo that she wanted to attend, and I was using my chair (crowd, plus winter outside, plus just didn't have the spoons to waste). It was there that she expressed shock that I was even considering being able to use my chair for the wedding. I told her that if I was up to walking, I would, but that I couldn't predict that. And that there was no way I'd be able to stand for the whole ceremony, and that I can't kneel. She was aware of all this before, but figured I'd find a way. She kicked me out that day, and I've not spoken to her since.

What a hurtful thing to have happened to you.  I'm so sorry. (((((hugs)))))
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15
Post by: Elfmama on September 10, 2012, 08:39:01 PM
Our Best Man slipped on some ice (only patch of ice in San Angelo, I think) and broke his ankle the day before our wedding.  He was on crutches, but we had absolutely no intentions of getting someone else.

Which year?  It does snow about every four to seven years (and we found out the hard way not to drive near the college when the drivers who have never driven in snow are out there - about 98% of the school population, btw).
1973, late December.  DH taught me how to drive on snow when we got to Alaska.  So now we laugh at people here in Maryland, who see snow several times a year, and STILL don't know how to drive in it.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15
Post by: sparksals on September 10, 2012, 08:39:25 PM
I've struggled with deciding whether or not to post this. For a long part of my life, I used a wheelchair (still do sometimes) to control severe knee pain. While I could, and did walk, it was on a day-by-day, and sometimes minute-by-minute decision to endure more pain, rather than dealing with the chair for whatever reason (strength training to inaccessibility). A friend had asked me to be her bridesmaid, and I'd accepted. We met up at a wedding expo that she wanted to attend, and I was using my chair (crowd, plus winter outside, plus just didn't have the spoons to waste). It was there that she expressed shock that I was even considering being able to use my chair for the wedding. I told her that if I was up to walking, I would, but that I couldn't predict that. And that there was no way I'd be able to stand for the whole ceremony, and that I can't kneel. She was aware of all this before, but figured I'd find a way. She kicked me out that day, and I've not spoken to her since.

To me, there is no question that this is horrendous treatment. She's being kicked out because she chooses to not do something uncomfortable and painful, and because she refuses to hide the fact that she has a disability.

I was hoping it was just an assumption, but the bride confirmed it when she suggested that not wearing that dress would mean the sister wasn't even invited to the wedding. That's not ignorance, that's prejudice.

I didn't go around telling people what had happened. And we ran in different circles for the most part. But, when people asked, I told them that I had been asked not to be in the wedding party because my heath wasn't reliable enough that I could be certain not to use my chair. People were horrified. And while I didn't poss the story around, it did get around.

Oh my, Rashea!  I'm SO sorry!  What a horrible thing for that so-called friend to do.   Consolation that you dodged a bullet?  She is no friend.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15
Post by: PastryGoddess on September 10, 2012, 11:53:17 PM
Our Best Man slipped on some ice (only patch of ice in San Angelo, I think) and broke his ankle the day before our wedding.  He was on crutches, but we had absolutely no intentions of getting someone else.

Which year?  It does snow about every four to seven years (and we found out the hard way not to drive near the college when the drivers who have never driven in snow are out there - about 98% of the school population, btw).
1973, late December.  DH taught me how to drive on snow when we got to Alaska.  So now we laugh at people here in Maryland, who see snow several times a year, and STILL don't know how to drive in it.

Not all of us in MD see snow several times year. Ice yes, but snow, not always
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15
Post by: Piratelvr1121 on September 11, 2012, 05:51:41 AM
DH was born and bred in Maryland and he marvels at that too, at how people who live in this area (which does get snow) seem to forget how to drive in it from year to year.  Heck, we seem to have people who forget how to drive in rain, for pete's sake.  You either get stuck behind someone doing 10 under or you're getting people doing 10 or more over and acting like it's not raining at all.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: asb8 on September 11, 2012, 10:54:43 AM
Susan's husband has settled at least one side of the equation.  He let their 2-year-old DD play with the arm.  The arm is now in several pieces.   >:D  She likes to play sword fighting with whatever she can get her hands on.

Susan is having lunch with Dave on Tuesday.  Louise will not be present.  Hopefully Dave will see sense and deal with it before it goes any further.

Wow! How the heck did that happen? All the prosthetics I've seen have been extremely sturdy, usually made of fiberglass or other super-durable materials.

Daddy might have started the party with a hammer first...
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: audrey1962 on September 11, 2012, 10:56:17 AM
Susan's husband has settled at least one side of the equation.  He let their 2-year-old DD play with the arm.  The arm is now in several pieces.   >:D  She likes to play sword fighting with whatever she can get her hands on.

Susan is having lunch with Dave on Tuesday.  Louise will not be present.  Hopefully Dave will see sense and deal with it before it goes any further.

Wow! How the heck did that happen? All the prosthetics I've seen have been extremely sturdy, usually made of fiberglass or other super-durable materials.

Daddy might have started the party with a hammer first...

He purposely broke his wife's prosthetic? Aren't they expensive? Wow. She must really hate it.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15
Post by: greencat on September 11, 2012, 11:15:37 AM
It was bought years ago, probably paid for through insurance, and something that caused her discomfort to wear to begin with.  Add in the focus on it caused by the future sister-in-law's discrimination, and I think watching it end up in pieces was probably pretty therapeutic.   ::)
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15
Post by: Syfygeek on September 11, 2012, 11:19:56 AM
I've followed this thread, as appalled as most of you over Louise's behavior. My local time is 12:15 pm and I really really hope that Susan's brother is now as appalled as I am, and of course he wants Susan at the wedding, in the wedding, in any way, form or fashion she desires!
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15
Post by: gingerzing on September 11, 2012, 11:24:27 AM
My best friend from high school had something like that.  Her sister (whom I know but am not close to) was to get married, but she didn't want their dad to walk her down the aisle. No toxic issues or anything. Their dad was a decent guy - for the most part.  He was in mid stage of Parkingsons along with another similiar disease and she thought it would look bad if her dad was stumbling or swaying while walking her down the aisle.  She was very concerned with how it would look to her In-Laws if things weren't perfect.   (I don't think their mom was in the wheelchair at that point)
I was livid.  I had just lost my dad to cancer a year or two before and was ready to smack sister. 

In the end, there was MUCH family pressure to have her dad in the wedding and everything turned out well.

Posting for updates.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15
Post by: snowdragon on September 11, 2012, 11:45:10 AM
My best friend from high school had something like that.  Her sister (whom I know but am not close to) was to get married, but she didn't want their dad to walk her down the aisle. No toxic issues or anything. Their dad was a decent guy - for the most part.  He was in mid stage of Parkingsons along with another similiar disease and she thought it would look bad if her dad was stumbling or swaying while walking her down the aisle.  She was very concerned with how it would look to her In-Laws if things weren't perfect.   (I don't think their mom was in the wheelchair at that point)
I was livid.  I had just lost my dad to cancer a year or two before and was ready to smack sister. 

In the end, there was MUCH family pressure to have her dad in the wedding and everything turned out well.

Posting for updates.



That breaks my heart.   The OP makes me angry but that just breaks my heart. That poor Father and how gracious of him to walk her down the aisle after that
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15
Post by: HonorH on September 11, 2012, 12:00:50 PM
My best friend from high school had something like that.  Her sister (whom I know but am not close to) was to get married, but she didn't want their dad to walk her down the aisle. No toxic issues or anything. Their dad was a decent guy - for the most part.  He was in mid stage of Parkingsons along with another similiar disease and she thought it would look bad if her dad was stumbling or swaying while walking her down the aisle.  She was very concerned with how it would look to her In-Laws if things weren't perfect.   (I don't think their mom was in the wheelchair at that point)
I was livid.  I had just lost my dad to cancer a year or two before and was ready to smack sister. 

In the end, there was MUCH family pressure to have her dad in the wedding and everything turned out well.

Posting for updates.

How shallow. Frankly, if my future in-laws are offended by the devices my dad has to wear to regulate the pump that keeps his heart going? The board won't let me say what they can do with themselves. I'll walk down the aisle proudly on his arm, happy that he can even be there.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: sourwolf on September 11, 2012, 12:21:56 PM
Susan's husband has settled at least one side of the equation.  He let their 2-year-old DD play with the arm.  The arm is now in several pieces.   >:D  She likes to play sword fighting with whatever she can get her hands on.

Susan is having lunch with Dave on Tuesday.  Louise will not be present.  Hopefully Dave will see sense and deal with it before it goes any further.

Wow! How the heck did that happen? All the prosthetics I've seen have been extremely sturdy, usually made of fiberglass or other super-durable materials.

Daddy might have started the party with a hammer first...

He purposely broke his wife's prosthetic? Aren't they expensive? Wow. She must really hate it.
And let the 2 year old play with the broken pieces? Wouldn't they be really sharp/pointy(because of the hard plastic etc)? That doesn't sound very safe  :-\
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15
Post by: Samantha on September 11, 2012, 12:31:59 PM
It was bought years ago, probably paid for through insurance, and something that caused her discomfort to wear to begin with.  Add in the focus on it caused by the future sister-in-law's discrimination, and I think watching it end up in pieces was probably pretty therapeutic.   ::)

Greencat, do you know the OP and their friend?
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15
Post by: GSNW on September 11, 2012, 12:43:24 PM
I've basically read this entire thread with my mouth hanging open, and I'm hoping for an update that shows Dave has some backbone, along with some compassion and empathy for his sister.  I am in complete agreement with those who say that this is not a "persona issue" or a "private matter between women."  This is blatant discrimination based on something Susan has no control over.  Many disagreements can be solved politely.  I would hardly term this a disagreement.

Louise is NOT a person I would want as a member of my family.  If the family allows this to pass, they are putting their stamp of approval on treating Susan differently if she will not conform, despite her discomfort.  Sure, give Louise the green light to treat someone as a missing limb instead of the person they are inside. 

My fingers are crossed for good news.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: Lorelei_Evil on September 11, 2012, 12:46:34 PM
Susan's husband has settled at least one side of the equation.  He let their 2-year-old DD play with the arm.  The arm is now in several pieces.   >:D  She likes to play sword fighting with whatever she can get her hands on.

Susan is having lunch with Dave on Tuesday.  Louise will not be present.  Hopefully Dave will see sense and deal with it before it goes any further.

Wow! How the heck did that happen? All the prosthetics I've seen have been extremely sturdy, usually made of fiberglass or other super-durable materials.

Daddy might have started the party with a hammer first...

He purposely broke his wife's prosthetic? Aren't they expensive? Wow. She must really hate it.
And let the 2 year old play with the broken pieces? Wouldn't they be really sharp/pointy(because of the hard plastic etc)? That doesn't sound very safe  :-\

Could we please stay on topic before the thread gets locked?
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: sourwolf on September 11, 2012, 12:50:21 PM
Susan's husband has settled at least one side of the equation.  He let their 2-year-old DD play with the arm.  The arm is now in several pieces.   >:D  She likes to play sword fighting with whatever she can get her hands on.

Susan is having lunch with Dave on Tuesday.  Louise will not be present.  Hopefully Dave will see sense and deal with it before it goes any further.

Wow! How the heck did that happen? All the prosthetics I've seen have been extremely sturdy, usually made of fiberglass or other super-durable materials.

Daddy might have started the party with a hammer first...

He purposely broke his wife's prosthetic? Aren't they expensive? Wow. She must really hate it.
And let the 2 year old play with the broken pieces? Wouldn't they be really sharp/pointy(because of the hard plastic etc)? That doesn't sound very safe  :-\

Could we please stay on topic before the thread gets locked?

I'm not sure how commenting on some parts of the OPs story are considered on topic and others would be considered off topic?  To me it seems like a very large part of the story that the husband was willing to destroy the arm.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15
Post by: gingerzing on September 11, 2012, 12:52:22 PM
My best friend from high school had something like that.  Her sister (whom I know but am not close to) was to get married, but she didn't want their dad to walk her down the aisle. No toxic issues or anything. Their dad was a decent guy - for the most part.  He was in mid stage of Parkingsons along with another similiar disease and she thought it would look bad if her dad was stumbling or swaying while walking her down the aisle.  She was very concerned with how it would look to her In-Laws if things weren't perfect.   (I don't think their mom was in the wheelchair at that point)
I was livid.  I had just lost my dad to cancer a year or two before and was ready to smack sister. 

In the end, there was MUCH family pressure to have her dad in the wedding and everything turned out well.

Posting for updates.



That breaks my heart.   The OP makes me angry but that just breaks my heart. That poor Father and how gracious of him to walk her down the aisle after that

As I understood, my friend and her mom kept it from Pop.  And since his memory was fritzy, he probably would have forgotten. 
And don't get me wrong, it wasn't the In-Laws who were against Pop walking Sister down, it was Sister preception of what her In-Laws views were.  As far as I understand, while more well-to-do than my friend's family, they seem fairly normal.  (And have an adult daughter with severe Down's so that makes the Pop walking down the aisle more irritating.)
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: bloo on September 11, 2012, 12:54:36 PM
Susan's husband has settled at least one side of the equation.  He let their 2-year-old DD play with the arm.  The arm is now in several pieces.   >:D  She likes to play sword fighting with whatever she can get her hands on.

Susan is having lunch with Dave on Tuesday.  Louise will not be present.  Hopefully Dave will see sense and deal with it before it goes any further.

Wow! How the heck did that happen? All the prosthetics I've seen have been extremely sturdy, usually made of fiberglass or other super-durable materials.

Daddy might have started the party with a hammer first...

He purposely broke his wife's prosthetic? Aren't they expensive? Wow. She must really hate it.
And let the 2 year old play with the broken pieces? Wouldn't they be really sharp/pointy(because of the hard plastic etc)? That doesn't sound very safe  :-\

Could we please stay on topic before the thread gets locked?

I'm not sure how commenting on some parts of the OPs story are considered on topic and others would be considered off topic?  To me it seems like a very large part of the story that the husband was willing to destroy the arm.

With all due respect, Sourwolf, it has nothing to do with the main thrust of this thread. We're all on tenterhooks waiting for the OP to let us know how lunch with Dave went. THAT is germane to the discussion. Not how safe destroying a prosthetic arm is or isn't.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: artk2002 on September 11, 2012, 12:59:45 PM
I'm not sure how commenting on some parts of the OPs story are considered on topic and others would be considered off topic?  To me it seems like a very large part of the story that the husband was willing to destroy the arm.

Because it's not relevant to the story. The only aspect that is relevant is the fact that Susan now can't wear the prosthesis. Why she can't wear it isn't germane at all. Picking at whether Susan and her husband endangered their child by letting her play with the prosthesis doesn't address the main issue at all and only serves to be a criticism of Susan who, IMO, is nothing but a victim in the story.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: sourwolf on September 11, 2012, 01:03:57 PM
I'm not sure how commenting on some parts of the OPs story are considered on topic and others would be considered off topic?  To me it seems like a very large part of the story that the husband was willing to destroy the arm.

Because it's not relevant to the story. The only aspect that is relevant is the fact that Susan now can't wear the prosthesis. Why she can't wear it isn't germane at all. Picking at whether Susan and her husband endangered their child by letting her play with the prosthesis doesn't address the main issue at all and only serves to be a criticism of Susan who, IMO, is nothing but a victim in the story.

Actually it was a criticism of Susan's husband, but thank you for explaining. I disagree about how relevant it is to the story but as it appears I'm in the minority on this one I'm happy to let it drop.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: Wonderflonium on September 11, 2012, 01:22:13 PM
I'm not sure how commenting on some parts of the OPs story are considered on topic and others would be considered off topic?  To me it seems like a very large part of the story that the husband was willing to destroy the arm.

Because it's not relevant to the story. The only aspect that is relevant is the fact that Susan now can't wear the prosthesis. Why she can't wear it isn't germane at all. Picking at whether Susan and her husband endangered their child by letting her play with the prosthesis doesn't address the main issue at all and only serves to be a criticism of Susan who, IMO, is nothing but a victim in the story.

This is ridiculous. If the OP posts something, it is up for discussion (assuming it doesn't break the rules of the forum). It happens all the time, so I'm not sure why people are jumping on sourwolf.

I maintain that it IS relevant to the story for myriad reasons, not the least of which being that it sounds oddly suspicious. I can't imagine someone taking a hammer to a prosthetic and then handing the shattered remains to a 2-year-old child; I would certainly hope others here would find that, at the very least, unusual. I'm not trying to cast aspersions on the OP's story, but something like this is outrageous enough to warrant questioning. Besides, the OP originally posted that the child broke it on her own and only let us know about the hammer after questioning. Who gets to decide that the first set of questions about the incident were acceptable but not the second?

Honestly, I know we are supposed to self-moderate to an extent, but people tend to go overboard.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: audrey1962 on September 11, 2012, 01:25:58 PM
This is ridiculous. If the OP posts something, it is up for discussion (assuming it doesn't break the rules of the forum). It happens all the time, so I'm not sure why people are jumping on sourwolf.

I agree. We have always discussed the OP's entire post and subsequent updates, not just select bits and pieces.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: AngelicGamer on September 11, 2012, 01:34:40 PM
I think that people should remember that this is a second hand OP.  The OP is not the main person involved here.  She probably heard, from Susan, that the 2 year old broke it herself and then, after asking Susan about it, learned that the husband helped.

I think jumping on the OP with nitpicking is just as bad as telling other posters not to post about the entire thread.  Yes, we can question, but there's a fine line between questioning and nitpicking as if to find out if the OP is truthful or not.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: Tabby Uprising on September 11, 2012, 01:39:47 PM
I'm not sure how commenting on some parts of the OPs story are considered on topic and others would be considered off topic?  To me it seems like a very large part of the story that the husband was willing to destroy the arm.

Because it's not relevant to the story. The only aspect that is relevant is the fact that Susan now can't wear the prosthesis. Why she can't wear it isn't germane at all. Picking at whether Susan and her husband endangered their child by letting her play with the prosthesis doesn't address the main issue at all and only serves to be a criticism of Susan who, IMO, is nothing but a victim in the story.

This is ridiculous. If the OP posts something, it is up for discussion (assuming it doesn't break the rules of the forum). It happens all the time, so I'm not sure why people are jumping on sourwolf.

I maintain that it IS relevant to the story for myriad reasons, not the least of which being that it sounds oddly suspicious. I can't imagine someone taking a hammer to a prosthetic and then handing the shattered remains to a 2-year-old child; I would certainly hope others here would find that, at the very least, unusual. I'm not trying to cast aspersions on the OP's story, but something like this is outrageous enough to warrant questioning. Besides, the OP originally posted that the child broke it on her own and only let us know about the hammer after questioning. Who gets to decide that the first set of questions about the incident were acceptable but not the second?

Honestly, I know we are supposed to self-moderate to an extent, but people tend to go overboard.

See, and I totally went to that scene in Office Space with the fax machine and the baseball bats. PC load letter? Probably just me though...
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15
Post by: Wonderflonium on September 11, 2012, 01:40:09 PM
If the OP had said that the child's father had helped her break it, I wouldn't have questioned. However, she specified the use of a hammer. Hammer + prosthesis = jagged parts. That's either a mistold story/misunderstanding or some pretty neglectful parenting. If it's the former and it's unintentional, OK, no biggie, just let us know. If it's the former and it IS intentional, it makes the whole story suspicious.

Given the emotional investment that a lot of people have made in this thread, I think the truthfulness of it is highly pertinent.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: Wonderflonium on September 11, 2012, 01:40:45 PM
See, and I totally went to that scene in Office Space with the fax machine and the baseball bats. PC load letter? Probably just me though...

Ha!  ;D I could see that; it's the giving the jagged pieces to a toddler that seems suspect.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15
Post by: Visiting Crazy Town on September 11, 2012, 01:41:45 PM
Asking a question is not jumping on the OP.  We question things all of the time and there really should be a problem with it .  Sourwolf wanted to know something so she asked one question but several people have taken it upon themselves to tell her that she shouldn't be questioning the OP about statements made during the discussion.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15
Post by: Roo on September 11, 2012, 01:44:53 PM
I suspect the hammer was probably used to split any articulating joints. Doesn't necessary follow that sharp shards were then handed to a two year old without any supervision.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15
Post by: audrey1962 on September 11, 2012, 01:49:43 PM
I don't see it as nitpicking as much as carrying on a conversation. If I were talking to my friend in person and really enjoying her story and she said, "but then the husband broke the arm!" I'd interject, "wow! Isn't it expensive?" And my friend would respond, "yes, but she hated it so much the expense wasn't worth it" and I'd murmur something and we'd continue conversing. It's the ebb and flow of discussion.

I realize it's difficult to replicate this online, but I don't believe we should be relegated to the role of static listener either.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15
Post by: JenJay on September 11, 2012, 01:52:24 PM
I thought OP was implying Susan's husband broke the prosthesis with a hammer but the official story will be "Oh DD was playing with it and accidentally broke it. Oops." *wink, wink*   >:D
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15
Post by: Steve on September 11, 2012, 02:00:48 PM
I agree with JenJay, this is how I interpreted it too. (but I can see that this is not stated in the posts as such)
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
Post by: Kiwichick on September 11, 2012, 02:01:07 PM
I think that people should remember that this is a second hand OP.  The OP is not the main person involved here.  She probably heard, from Susan, that the 2 year old broke it herself and then, after asking Susan about it, learned that the husband helped.

I think jumping on the OP with nitpicking is just as bad as telling other posters not to post about the entire thread.  Yes, we can question, but there's a fine line between questioning and nitpicking as if to find out if the OP is truthful or not.

I've followed this entire thread and I haven't seen any nitpicking, in fact there seems to be an unquestioning acceptance of the facts, I've rarely seen that in a 20 page thread.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15
Post by: Steve on September 11, 2012, 02:05:26 PM
It also seems everyone is pretty much in agreement over the posted issue, that is also very rare in posts this long :)
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15
Post by: Wonderflonium on September 11, 2012, 02:13:58 PM
I thought OP was implying Susan's husband broke the prosthesis with a hammer but the official story will be "Oh DD was playing with it and accidentally broke it. Oops." *wink, wink*   >:D

See, this didn't occur to me at all, but I could see it being the case now that you brought it up. This is why we ask questions.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15
Post by: WillyNilly on September 11, 2012, 02:16:47 PM
I have very little experience with prosthetics but I didn't think they were made of hard plastic but rather more malleable rubbery material with an internal structure that was hard - kinda like a real limb with hard bone, firm muscle, squishy skin only on a prosthetic is more hard metal or plastic, then firm foam rubber then an outer skin... so a taking a hammer to it would break the internal bits, the "bone" if you will but not produce sharp corners...
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15
Post by: bloo on September 11, 2012, 02:19:15 PM
Asking a question is not jumping on the OP.  We question things all of the time and there really should be a problem with it .  Sourwolf wanted to know something so she asked one question but several people have taken it upon themselves to tell her that she shouldn't be questioning the OP about statements made during the discussion.

Actually, I didn't think Sourwolf was jumping on the OP. Lorelai_Evil asked that posters keep on topic because threads can get locked when they deviate too much. Asking an irrelevant question can cause the thread to deviate.

And I agree, Steve, that it is amazing that this has lasted peacefully and pretty much in agreement for 20 pages! Anxious to hear an update...
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15
Post by: rashea on September 11, 2012, 02:24:36 PM
I have very little experience with prosthetics but I didn't think they were made of hard plastic but rather more malleable rubbery material with an internal structure that was hard - kinda like a real limb with hard bone, firm muscle, squishy skin only on a prosthetic is more hard metal or plastic, then firm foam rubber then an outer skin... so a taking a hammer to it would break the internal bits, the "bone" if you will but not produce sharp corners...

It depends. This version, that sounds about right, since the arm was intended for cosmetic reasons rather than for use.

And prosthetic have come a long way, but when that one was made, I can't say I blame her. They used to be awful. It's one of the few good things to come out of the wars.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15
Post by: greencat on September 11, 2012, 02:40:37 PM
I think the real issue with the topic of how the prosthetic was destroyed and why it might get the thread locked is that it's not an etiquette related question or even related to the etiquette of the situation at hand.  It was veering off into other issues like child safety and parenting that aren't germane to this thread at all.  That it was destroyed is relevant because it forces the issue - Susan no longer has the prosthetic that Louise wanted to force her to wear in order to be allowed to attend the wedding.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15
Post by: asb8 on September 11, 2012, 03:33:29 PM
I thought OP was implying Susan's husband broke the prosthesis with a hammer but the official story will be "Oh DD was playing with it and accidentally broke it. Oops." *wink, wink*   >:D

Official story...what do you mean official story?  ;D

Susan had lunch with Dave today.  Thankfully, he was under the impression that was a dress dispute, not an arm dispute.  Susan printed the email, per the advice of several ehellions, let him read it and asked if he was in agreement.

Dave turned an interesting shade of purple and said she was welcome at his wedding, wearing whatever she chose.

Susan asked him to relay to Louise that she would not be a member of the bridal party and that in the interest of family harmony she would not be telling anyone the real reason.  This incident will remain between them and everyone will move forward as though it never happened, however should anything like this ever happpen again Susan will not be so discrete or gracious about it.

To the posters who asked, I don't think anyone was endangered in the great arm caper and it was carried out with Susan's knowledge and support.  Now she doesn't have to think about it again!   :)
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: Outdoor Girl on September 11, 2012, 03:40:15 PM
I'm so glad to hear that Dave is not a complete louse.  Susan is taking the absolute highest road she possibly could here.

Please update us if there is any fallout from Dave confronting Louise.  I really hope, for Dave's sake, there is!
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: Jones on September 11, 2012, 03:40:56 PM
Oh that update makes me so GLAD. Having Dave essentially support the bigotry being carried out was one of the saddest things of this whole story; finding out that he was under the impression it was a dress dispute, and promptly did the right thing, makes me so happy on Susan's behalf.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: AfleetAlex on September 11, 2012, 03:41:29 PM
Oh, to be a fly on the wall when Dave gets home to talk to Louise....  >:D
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: LEMon on September 11, 2012, 03:42:07 PM
So Dave didn't know!  Excellent update.  She was very gracious.  The power behind her pronouncement is that as far as she and Dave are concerned all will be well between her and Louise; any problems between Dave and Louise are because of Dave's response to Louise's demands, not hers.

(Oh, to be a fly on the wall for the talk between Dave and Louise.  The email means she can't say 'oh, I didn't say that'.)
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: Danika on September 11, 2012, 03:48:01 PM
OP, thanks for the update.

So, Dave thought it was a dress dispute. Did Louise also tell Dave that Susan refused to attend the wedding, rather than Louise saying that she uninvited Susan?

Oh, to be a fly on the wall when Dave gets home to talk to Louise....  >:D

POD
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: Kiwichick on September 11, 2012, 03:50:02 PM
Oh that update makes me so GLAD. Having Dave essentially support the bigotry being carried out was one of the saddest things of this whole story; finding out that he was under the impression it was a dress dispute, and promptly did the right thing, makes me so happy on Susan's behalf.

He's still marrying her, that's supporting a bigot in the most fundamental manner.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: greencat on September 11, 2012, 03:50:20 PM
I would personally be surprised if the wedding continues as planned.


Grammar nerd moment:  Susan will be discreET not discreTE.  For those who are interested, the TE form means separate/distinct.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: Outdoor Girl on September 11, 2012, 03:51:08 PM
Oh that update makes me so GLAD. Having Dave essentially support the bigotry being carried out was one of the saddest things of this whole story; finding out that he was under the impression it was a dress dispute, and promptly did the right thing, makes me so happy on Susan's behalf.

He's still marrying her, that's supporting a bigot in the most fundamental manner.

Maybe not, after their conversation.   :)  As AfleetAlex said, oh to be a fly on the wall...
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: kansha on September 11, 2012, 03:53:46 PM
i hope he took the printout of the email home with him!
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: Kaypeep on September 11, 2012, 03:57:35 PM
Thanks for the update, OP. 

FWIW the brother standing by her if it *were* just a dress dispute would still be in the wrong, IMO, because his sister had no issues wearing the same dress as the other attendants and the bride was out of line to make her wear a different dress simply because of HER discomfort with her SIL's disability.

Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: Diane AKA Traska on September 11, 2012, 03:58:47 PM
i hope he took the printout of the email home with him!

I hope he makes copies, then gift wraps the copy he got and gives it to Louise.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: WillyNilly on September 11, 2012, 04:06:11 PM
Thanks for the update, OP. 

FWIW the brother standing by her if it *were* just a dress dispute would still be in the wrong, IMO, because his sister had no issues wearing the same dress as the other attendants and the bride was out of line to make her wear a different dress simply because of HER discomfort with her SIL's disability.

Well that would be assuming he knew that part.  more likely he simply heard "your sister couldn't come dress hopping with us because she had to work and when I showed her the dress I'd picked she said she refused to wear it!"  With no mention it was a different dress or a dress designed to hide her [lack of part of an] arm.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: JenJay on September 11, 2012, 04:14:51 PM
I take back all the mean thoughts I had about Dave, but I fear the poor guy is nowhere near out of the middle just yet.

I don't imagine Louise is going to take it well when Dave comes home and says "So tell me again about my sister and the wedding, because I just had a very interesting lunch..." Most likely she'll turn white with rage that Susan had the audacity (heavy sarcasm) to go behind her back and try to turn Dave against her when all she was trying to do was have a pretty wedding. (Where's that vomiting icon?!)

I really, really hope I'm wrong, though, and that being confronted with how horrifically she behaved will cause her to burst into tears and confess she's turned into a major bridezilla and realizes she owes several people massive, groveling apologies. Fingers crossed.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: Piratelvr1121 on September 11, 2012, 04:27:39 PM
Well! My respect for Dave just went up several notches!!  I loved reading that he turned an interesting shade of purple upon reading the email. :) And I'm glad there was an email for proof too.

As other posters said, oh to be a fly on the wall... >:D
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: Otterpop on September 11, 2012, 04:50:54 PM
Well played Susan!  Thank you OP for updating.  I hope Dave has a long talk with his Bride to Be.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: Queen of Clubs on September 11, 2012, 04:51:42 PM
I'm relieved, for Susan's sake, that Dave didn't know what was going on.  As others said, I think Susan's being very gracious to let it drop while she attends as a guest.  Assuming the wedding goes ahead.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: Iris on September 11, 2012, 04:59:33 PM
I take back all the mean thoughts I had about Dave, but I fear the poor guy is nowhere near out of the middle just yet.

I don't imagine Louise is going to take it well when Dave comes home and says "So tell me again about my sister and the wedding, because I just had a very interesting lunch..." Most likely she'll turn white with rage that Susan had the audacity (heavy sarcasm) to go behind her back and try to turn Dave against her when all she was trying to do was have a pretty wedding. (Where's that vomiting icon?!)

I really, really hope I'm wrong, though, and that being confronted with how horrifically she behaved will cause her to burst into tears and confess she's turned into a major bridezilla and realizes she owes several people massive, groveling apologies. Fingers crossed.

Mine too. If Dave turned that purple and had *no idea* then hopefully that's a clue that this is in some way out of character.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: CharlieBraun on September 11, 2012, 05:14:52 PM
I think this confirms what many here said, that Louise was going to float her own version as to why Susan is not a bridesmaid/not attending.

Glad she brought the email.

I think Dave has gotten valuable insight into his bride to be's true character.  What he does with that information going forward will give Susan insight into his.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: TheaterDiva1 on September 11, 2012, 06:13:02 PM
Oh, to be a fly on the wall when Dave gets home to talk to Louise....  >:D

Dying for another update!!! :)
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: VorFemme on September 11, 2012, 06:48:28 PM
Oh, to be a fly on the wall when Dave gets home to talk to Louise....  >:D

Dying for another update!!! :)

So are the rest of us.

Wonder what Louise is going to try to claim is the Rest Of The Story?

Betcha she doesn't have any emails to print out..... >:D 8)
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: Danika on September 11, 2012, 07:00:43 PM
Oh, to be a fly on the wall when Dave gets home to talk to Louise....  >:D

Dying for another update!!! :)

So are the rest of us.

Wonder what Louise is going to try to claim is the Rest Of The Story?

Betcha she doesn't have any emails to print out..... >:D 8)

I know. I can imagine she will deny a lot and then say that Susan misunderstood until Dave presents her with the printed emails! If he lets her get away with this and marries her anyway, she'll know not to put her vitriol into written word next time and will save her meanness for verbal communication only.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: kherbert05 on September 11, 2012, 07:37:00 PM
Dave isn't the scrapings from the bottom of a shoe, but he is still marrying a bigot that hates his sister for being who she is.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: FauxFoodist on September 11, 2012, 07:37:49 PM
I would personally be surprised if the wedding continues as planned.


Grammar nerd moment:  Susan will be discreET not discreTE.  For those who are interested, the TE form means separate/distinct.

Pod.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: FauxFoodist on September 11, 2012, 07:46:00 PM
Dave isn't the scrapings from the bottom of a shoe, but he is still marrying a bigot that hates his sister for being who she is.

Well, to be fair, he only found out today; I'm thinking he might be in a bit of shock.  If I found out DF was like this, I'd need a little bit of time to figure out how to deal with the fact my world just turned upside down.  I'm thinking Dave first needs to confront directly Louise.  Given the update, I'm thinking HE is questioning exactly who it is he's marrying and what the future is likely to hold.  For now, I feel a little sorry for him that he's learned he's in love with someone who could be so vile and, especially, to his sister.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: Piratelvr1121 on September 11, 2012, 07:48:06 PM
Dave isn't the scrapings from the bottom of a shoe, but he is still marrying a bigot that hates his sister for being who she is.

Well, to be fair, he only found out today; I'm thinking he might be in a bit of shock.  If I found out DF was like this, I'd need a little bit of time to figure out how to deal with the fact my world just turned upside down.  I'm thinking Dave first needs to confront directly Louise.  Given the update, I'm thinking HE is questioning exactly who it is he's marrying and what the future is likely to hold.  For now, I feel a little sorry for him that he's learned he's in love with someone who could be so vile and, especially, to his sister.

POD.  I'm reserving further judgment until we hear how his discussion with Louise goes.  Like SoCalVal, I think he's probably reeling and re-evaluating things, now.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: acicularis on September 11, 2012, 09:16:17 PM
I was happy to read the update.

I chuckled at the description of the Great Arm Caper.

And if this story wasn't bad enough,  I was saddened to read similar stories of brides who wanted to exclude anyone who wasn't perfect from their weddings.

When my brother got married, he and his bride wanted my daughter to be one of the flower girls. She's in a wheelchair, and can't control her arms and hands enough to maintain a grip on a flower bouquet like a typical child. My brother and now SIL's attitude was "How can we make this work?" not "Oh, she's not perfect, let's keep her hidden from view." And if anyone had a problem with the sight of a less than perfect child in a wheelchair coming down the aisle (pushed by her massively pregnant Mom), they kept it to themselves.

I had already thought so before, but after reading this thread,  it's even more clear to me that my brother married the right woman.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: wonderfullyanonymous on September 11, 2012, 09:17:38 PM
I would love to be a fly on the wall when David went home and said,

"Louise, I had an interesting conversation with my sister today, you know the one who needs to wear the prosthetic to stand up with you and come to the wedding."
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: violinp on September 11, 2012, 09:22:19 PM
Dave isn't the scrapings from the bottom of a shoe, but he is still marrying a bigot that hates his sister for being who she is.

Well, to be fair, he only found out today; I'm thinking he might be in a bit of shock.  If I found out DF was like this, I'd need a little bit of time to figure out how to deal with the fact my world just turned upside down.  I'm thinking Dave first needs to confront directly Louise.  Given the update, I'm thinking HE is questioning exactly who it is he's marrying and what the future is likely to hold.  For now, I feel a little sorry for him that he's learned he's in love with someone who could be so vile and, especially, to his sister.

POD.  I'm reserving further judgment until we hear how his discussion with Louise goes.  Like SoCalVal, I think he's probably reeling and re-evaluating things, now.

Exactly. He was under the impression that the squabble was over a dress, only to find out that the woman he planned to spend the rest of his life with is a bigot. I honestly feel bad for Dave right now.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: buvezdevin on September 11, 2012, 09:38:23 PM
I was happy to read the update.

I chuckled at the description of the Great Arm Caper.

And if this story wasn't bad enough,  I was saddened to read similar stories of brides who wanted to exclude anyone who wasn't perfect from their weddings.

When my brother got married, he and his bride wanted my daughter to be one of the flower girls. She's in a wheelchair, and can't control her arms and hands enough to maintain a grip on a flower bouquet like a typical child. My brother and now SIL's attitude was "How can we make this work?" not "Oh, she's not perfect, let's keep her hidden from view." And if anyone had a problem with the sight of a less than perfect child in a wheelchair coming down the aisle (pushed by her massively pregnant Mom), they kept it to themselves.

I had already thought so before, but after reading this thread,  it's even more clear to me that my brother married the right woman.

Thank you for sharing such a delightful story of a family and wedding plans going so wonderfully well.  This past weekend I was a guest at a wedding in which all family, and close friends were considered in the wedding planning and related details.  Among the most heart-warming and, I think, to be treasured moments, were touches and details to honor or remember some with physical challenges or who were not physically present to celebrate the wedding, above and beyond the many gestures included for key family members who were present.

One of the lingering impressions from the wedding events, for me anyway, was how much the happy couple and their immediate family value and treasure family, and close friends. 

I am sorry for Dave to be confronted with the fact that his view and regarded value for his sister is not evidently shared by his intended bride. 

Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: LifeOnPluto on September 11, 2012, 10:28:35 PM
Good update! Susan handled the whole thing very graciously.

I too, am curious to know whether Dave will choose to go ahead with the wedding.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: jellyjar on September 11, 2012, 10:34:30 PM
I have been reading this thread and my heart is so sad for all the people that have been cast aside because they weren't "perfect" to someone else.  The thing that gets me is that there are so many stories where people are just props for a picture perfect wedding that is supposed to be that "special day".  But what makes it special is when the people getting married celebrate their day with people they love.  No one is going to remember what size heels the bridemaids heels were, but they will remember seeing that little flower girl in a wheelchair or the bridesmaid with the missing arm or whatever other things that people perceive as imperfections and thinking what happy beautiful families that are joining together.  And if they don't, why should we care?  It is just so strange when you think about it that we have it so turned around in our heads that image is so much more important that what the wedding day really stands for.  Or any day for that matter. 
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: Starchasm on September 12, 2012, 12:27:02 AM
I am SO GLAD Dave didn't know!  What a relief there's only one in that relationship.  I wonder what will happen now...
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: jedikaiti on September 12, 2012, 12:55:37 AM
Well! My respect for Dave just went up several notches!!  I loved reading that he turned an interesting shade of purple upon reading the email. :) And I'm glad there was an email for proof too.

As other posters said, oh to be a fly on the wall... >:D

Me too!

So, the betting pool is open... I have a batch of virtual, homemade chocolate chip cookies on Louise suddenly backtracking, (saying either a) Susan misunderstood her or, less likely, b) she did not express herself clearly, and in either case she thought Susan would be more comfortable with the fake arm and really obviously different dress), telling Susan that OF COURSE she MUST be at the wedding, and perhaps even re-inviting her to be a bridezillamaid.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: Danika on September 12, 2012, 01:26:56 AM
Well! My respect for Dave just went up several notches!!  I loved reading that he turned an interesting shade of purple upon reading the email. :) And I'm glad there was an email for proof too.

As other posters said, oh to be a fly on the wall... >:D

Me too!

So, the betting pool is open... I have a batch of virtual, homemade chocolate chip cookies on Louise suddenly backtracking, (saying either a) Susan misunderstood her or, less likely, b) she did not express herself clearly, and in either case she thought Susan would be more comfortable with the fake arm and really obviously different dress), telling Susan that OF COURSE she MUST be at the wedding, and perhaps even re-inviting her to be a bridezillamaid.

I agree with you. I predict something like b. I feel that it's unlikely this is the first time Louise has exhibited red flag behavior and that Dave has probably missed a few others. Perhaps they had a short courtship. Perhaps he doesn't want to be alone and has ignored other red flags. I suspect he'll somehow give in and marry her anyway because I have a hard time imagining this is the first indicator of her true character. What I am happy about is that this happened before they were wed so he's at least had his eyes opened  before he takes any vows.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: RingTailedLemur on September 12, 2012, 03:27:48 AM
Dave isn't the scrapings from the bottom of a shoe, but he is still marrying a bigot that hates his sister for being who she is.

Well, to be fair, he only found out today; I'm thinking he might be in a bit of shock.  If I found out DF was like this, I'd need a little bit of time to figure out how to deal with the fact my world just turned upside down.  I'm thinking Dave first needs to confront directly Louise.  Given the update, I'm thinking HE is questioning exactly who it is he's marrying and what the future is likely to hold.  For now, I feel a little sorry for him that he's learned he's in love with someone who could be so vile and, especially, to his sister.

POD.  I'm reserving further judgment until we hear how his discussion with Louise goes.  Like SoCalVal, I think he's probably reeling and re-evaluating things, now.

Double POD.  Great update!
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: Piratelvr1121 on September 12, 2012, 05:41:05 AM
This thread reminds me of a wedding of a second cousin. I was not able to attend, but I heard about it from my mother.  The bride had gotten pregnant and had the baby before they got married, and instead of carrying a bouquet down the aisle, the bride carried her newborn son. 

My mother's attitude was that she thought it awful that cousin was flaunting it in everyone's faces that she'd gotten pregnant out of wedlock, by carrying her infant son down the aisle, and why couldn't she had let someone else hold him, or have a sitter for the ceremony, or something?

I thought it was sweet that my cousin (who is close to my age) included her son in the ceremony and was not ashamed of him at all, as my mother implied she should be.   
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: SPuck on September 12, 2012, 07:20:54 AM
My mother's attitude was that she thought it awful that cousin was flaunting it in everyone's faces that she'd gotten pregnant out of wedlock, by carrying her infant son down the aisle, and why couldn't she had let someone else hold him, or have a sitter for the ceremony, or something?

She didn't say anything to the bride, did she?
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: Nuala on September 12, 2012, 08:25:46 AM
My mother's attitude was that she thought it awful that cousin was flaunting it in everyone's faces that she'd gotten pregnant out of wedlock, by carrying her infant son down the aisle, and why couldn't she had let someone else hold him, or have a sitter for the ceremony, or something?

And if she had left the baby with a sitter, someone would have snarked, "Why is she hiding the baby? Is she trying to pretend she's pure as the driven snow? Who does she think she's fooling?"

Ugh.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: gramma dishes on September 12, 2012, 10:06:14 AM
I have been reading this thread and my heart is so sad for all the people that have been cast aside because they weren't "perfect" to someone else.  The thing that gets me is that there are so many stories where people are just props for a picture perfect wedding that is supposed to be that "special day".  But what makes it special is when the people getting married celebrate their day with people they love.  No one is going to remember what size heels the bridemaids heels were, but they will remember seeing that little flower girl in a wheelchair or the bridesmaid with the missing arm or whatever other things that people perceive as imperfections and thinking what happy beautiful families that are joining together.  And if they don't, why should we care?  It is just so strange when you think about it that we have it so turned around in our heads that image is so much more important that what the wedding day really stands for.  Or any day for that matter.

Yes.  Eloquently stated! 
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: Piratelvr1121 on September 12, 2012, 10:10:44 AM
My mother's attitude was that she thought it awful that cousin was flaunting it in everyone's faces that she'd gotten pregnant out of wedlock, by carrying her infant son down the aisle, and why couldn't she had let someone else hold him, or have a sitter for the ceremony, or something?

She didn't say anything to the bride, did she?

Not that I know of, but my mother's also not very good at hiding her disapproval, either.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: gramma dishes on September 12, 2012, 10:23:00 AM
...    instead of carrying a bouquet down the aisle, the bride carried her newborn son. 

I think this is sweet.  Let's face it.  Today a lot of couples have a child (or two) before they get married.  So when the wedding takes place it is more the recognition that this is a full true family, not just a husband and wife.  I've seen a couple of weddings where the bride's mother holds a two year old and the groom's mother holds a one year old during the ceremony and then after the "I do"s  the bride and groom  each pick up a child and they all walk back up the aisle together.  I've never heard a single negative comment about it.  (Well other than maybe for some people, a teeny sigh of relief.   :) )
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: Wordgeek on September 12, 2012, 10:50:28 AM
I just deleted a wildly inappropriate post.

While Louise's behaviour thus far doesn't put her in the best light (to put it mildly), please leave off the ill-wishing.  I commend those who have chosen to reserve judgment until Dave has had a chance to talk to her.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: Outdoor Girl on September 12, 2012, 10:53:55 AM
Some of the stories reminded me of this incident:

I was in Costco a while back and came across a family shopping - Mom, Dad, toddler in the cart.  I had to wait a few seconds for someone to clear out of the way and made eye contact with the little guy.  I smiled and said Hi!  He grinned and said Hi back.  Then Mom looked at me with kind of a strange look on her face.

You see, the little guy had an awful red rash on his face and Mom was so used to people just turning away and not interacting with him that she just couldn't believe that someone would.  She was very quick to tell me that he wasn't contagious.  I just smiled and said that I wished my mother were still alive and with me because as an old time nurse, she would have been telling her what to try to clear it up.  And my Mom probably would have asked to pick him up and cuddle him first.

I was just floored that people could be so cruel.

Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: Elfmama on September 12, 2012, 11:57:15 AM
This thread reminds me of a wedding of a second cousin. I was not able to attend, but I heard about it from my mother.  The bride had gotten pregnant and had the baby before they got married, and instead of carrying a bouquet down the aisle, the bride carried her newborn son. 

My mother's attitude was that she thought it awful that cousin was flaunting it in everyone's faces that she'd gotten pregnant out of wedlock, by carrying her infant son down the aisle, and why couldn't she had let someone else hold him, or have a sitter for the ceremony, or something?

I thought it was sweet that my cousin (who is close to my age) included her son in the ceremony and was not ashamed of him at all, as my mother implied she should be.
At DD2's wedding, DH escorted her on one side and her 3yo son held her other hand.  (Can't really call it escorting -- he was skipping!  ;D )
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: Auntie Mame on September 12, 2012, 12:11:51 PM
OP, I have got to say, from your description Susan sounds like pure class to me.  I am beyond impressed with how gracefully and maturely she has handled Louise.  My lovely vintage hat off to her.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: GSNW on September 12, 2012, 01:14:47 PM
OP, I have got to say, from your description Susan sounds like pure class to me.  I am beyond impressed with how gracefully and maturely she has handled Louise.  My lovely vintage hat off to her.

Agreed x 2392093409234.  Susan has handled this issue in THE MOST graceful way possible, when Louise certainly does not (in my opinion) deserve discretion or a chance to backtrack on her pronouncements of Susan's imperfections.  I am very pleased that Dave has shown the appropriate compassion and empathy, though I agree with others that it has to be a hard time for him.  I would not want to deal with finding out something so ugly about my intended.  Hurt and confusion don't begin to cover it.

My mom's sister got married when I was about 11, and I was a "junior" bridesmaid.  I still remember doing the formal pictures, the photographer actually whipped out a roll of double-sided mounting tape to tape back my grandpa's sticky-out ears.  My aunt was having none of it and told the photographer to leave his ears alone, they were a family trait. 

Hopefully this will be a serious (figurative) smack in the face for Louise, and she will reconsider her attitude.  It might not save this relationship but it will do her good down the road.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: hobish on September 12, 2012, 01:33:23 PM
...    instead of carrying a bouquet down the aisle, the bride carried her newborn son. 

I think this is sweet.  Let's face it.  Today a lot of couples have a child (or two) before they get married.  So when the wedding takes place it is more the recognition that this is a full true family, not just a husband and wife.  I've seen a couple of weddings where the bride's mother holds a two year old and the groom's mother holds a one year old during the ceremony and then after the "I do"s  the bride and groom  each pick up a child and they all walk back up the aisle together.  I've never heard a single negative comment about it.  (Well other than maybe for some people, a teeny sigh of relief.   :) )

With all due respect, and maybe just a touch of being sensitive, i need to point out - when Gish and i get married we will be "a full true family" despite being "just a husband wife" without having chidren either in or out of wedlock.


Thank you for the update, OP. I, too, feel bad for Dave at this point. As PP’s have said, it must be quite a shock to find out from the blue that your intended is so mean. Hopefully it is one act on the part of an overwhelmed and wedding-crazed bride to be, and not an indication of an attitude as a whole, however slim those chances might be.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: Danika on September 12, 2012, 01:34:02 PM
the photographer actually whipped out a roll of double-sided mounting tape to tape back my grandpa's sticky-out ears.

WOW!  :o

How does that conversation go? "Here, sir. Here's some tape for your Dumbo ears. And you miss, your nose is too large, let's stick you behind someone tall so we only see your eyes and forehead. And, you sir, that comb-over is not believable. Here's a toupee I keep with me for this type of situation. And ma'am, you're too tall. Please, remove your shoes. Let's have your husband stand on a box so that he's a lot taller than you." CRAZY!
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: gramma dishes on September 12, 2012, 01:49:14 PM
With all due respect, and maybe just a touch of being sensitive, i need to point out - when Gish and i get married we will be "a full true family" despite being "just a husband wife" without having chidren either in or out of wedlock.

I'm so sorry, Hobish.  I certainly didn't mean to be disrespectful toward those who marry and don't happen to have children already. (We didn't.)  Your point is well made.   A husband and wife do make a complete family.

I was trying to say that in some cases a wedding is doing more than just marrying a man and a woman.  Sometimes it is a man and a woman, a mother and a father, a mother and children, a father and children, and brothers and sisters making a public declaration of their love and commitment to each other.  I don't know how to phrase it differently, but please know that I understand what you are saying and I agree with you completely.

You are absolutely right.  It only takes two to make a family.   It's just that a family can sometimes include more than two too,  and in my opinion, no one has the right to look askance at that and act like there is something "wrong"  or "immoral"about it.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: hobish on September 12, 2012, 02:21:34 PM
No worries, gramma dishes, i know offense wasn't intended and i didn't take any; i just thought it bore pointing out :)

Quote
You are absolutely right.  It only takes two to make a family.   It's just that a family can sometimes include more than two too,  and in my opinion, no one has the right to look askance at that and act like there is something "wrong"  or "immoral"about it.

Poddity-pod. There are so many definitions of family these days. I think it is wonderful.


ETA: I just realized how off track that got.  :-[ Sorry. The mind ... it wanders...
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: Piratelvr1121 on September 12, 2012, 02:38:08 PM
A cousin got married back in May, and as his mother (my aunt) had passed away a year prior, my uncle escorted the flower girl and ring bearer (his 18 month grandson and 3 yo granddaughter) down the aisle. It was cute. :)

Though I'm sure if my aunt was still alive, my cousin would have loved to have had her come down the aisle in her powered wheelchair. (she had a spine injury)
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: Diane AKA Traska on September 12, 2012, 02:42:51 PM
A husband and wife do make a complete family.

And sometimes a husband and a husband, or a wife and a wife.  ;)
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: Elfmama on September 12, 2012, 03:13:04 PM
No worries, gramma dishes, i know offense wasn't intended and i didn't take any; i just thought it bore pointing out :)

Quote
You are absolutely right.  It only takes two to make a family.   It's just that a family can sometimes include more than two too,  and in my opinion, no one has the right to look askance at that and act like there is something "wrong"  or "immoral"about it.

Poddity-pod. There are so many definitions of family these days. I think it is wonderful.


ETA: I just realized how off track that got.  :-[ Sorry. The mind ... it wanders...
So it does...  when Elfqueen got married for the second time, both her son and his daughter were part of the wedding attendants.  Granddaughter was carrying part of the brideprice, and Grandson escorted his mother down the aisle.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: EmmaJ. on September 12, 2012, 03:29:31 PM
So it does...  when Elfqueen got married for the second time, both her son and his daughter were part of the wedding attendants.  Granddaughter was carrying part of the brideprice, and Grandson escorted his mother down the aisle.

Sorry, I just have to ask - brideprice?  What is that?  (Just ignore the question if I'm intruding  :))
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: Elfmama on September 12, 2012, 04:22:13 PM
So it does...  when Elfqueen got married for the second time, both her son and his daughter were part of the wedding attendants.  Granddaughter was carrying part of the brideprice, and Grandson escorted his mother down the aisle.

Sorry, I just have to ask - brideprice?  What is that?  (Just ignore the question if I'm intruding  :))
Answered by PM, so as not to derail the thread further.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: NyaChan on September 12, 2012, 04:51:05 PM
I think that Louise should be given a chance to explain herself to Dave so that he can make an informed choice.  I mean, think about how close the bond of SOs & married couples is and how we advocate on ehell to support your SO when dealing with your family - wouldn't you give your SO the benefit of the doubt at least initially when you hear or find out something incredibly awful about them?  I mean if it is true that she is a bigot and didn't just get carried away in some weird power play then I would think less of Dave for going through with the marriage.  But I also think that the nature of their relationship means that she deserves a shot at explaining, not explaining away mind you, her recent behavior.

ETA:  Susan is one classy lady.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: MamaMootz on September 12, 2012, 04:53:34 PM
Snipped this from the OP:

 Louise replied that Susan had to wear the prosthetic arm and the chosen dress, as the missing portion of Susan's arm makes Louise uncomfortable.  Furthermore, if Susan refused, then Louise would like her to not only resign from the bridal party but not attend the wedding!

I don't know how Louise can possibly put a positive spin on this. She stated flat out that the sight of Susan's arm makes her uncomfortable. There is no tap dancing around that statement.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: camlan on September 12, 2012, 05:13:04 PM
Snipped this from the OP:

 Louise replied that Susan had to wear the prosthetic arm and the chosen dress, as the missing portion of Susan's arm makes Louise uncomfortable.  Furthermore, if Susan refused, then Louise would like her to not only resign from the bridal party but not attend the wedding!

I don't know how Louise can possibly put a positive spin on this. She stated flat out that the sight of Susan's arm makes her uncomfortable. There is no tap dancing around that statement.

I think Louise has the right to be uncomfortable at the sight of Susan's arm. We can't always control how we feel about things like visible disabilities. Louise has the right to her own feelings.

Don't get me wrong. I don't think what Louise did has any excuse. While Louise has the right to her feelings, she does not have the right to hurt other people by expressing those feelings. Part of growing up and being an adult is learning how to handle things that, while they make you uncomfortable, don't hurt you in any way. Louise doesn't like looking at Susan's arm, someone else doesn't like looking at a burn victim, someone else doesn't like like being around blind people.

It's how you handle those feelings that is what matters. You don't banish people with disabilities from your sight and your life; you learn how to interact with them. You can be uncomfortable about the disability; you should be able to learn to be comfortable around the *person*. Or at least interact with them politely.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: Amava on September 12, 2012, 05:37:36 PM
I think that Louise should be given a chance to explain herself to Dave so that he can make an informed choice.  I mean, think about how close the bond of SOs & married couples is and how we advocate on ehell to support your SO when dealing with your family - wouldn't you give your SO the benefit of the doubt at least initially when you hear or find out something incredibly awful about them?  I mean if it is true that she is a bigot and didn't just get carried away in some weird power play then I would think less of Dave for going through with the marriage.  But I also think that the nature of their relationship means that she deserves a shot at explaining, not explaining away mind you, her recent behavior.

ETA:  Susan is one classy lady.

I agree.

I do not believe in the statement "bigots never change" that is sometimes tossed around. Every person, no matter how rude or crass, no matter how ignorant or bigoted, who we meet in our lives and / or talk about on this board, is a human being. We should not forget that. People have the ability to learn, to evolve. I personally have seen people who were quite the racists and/or homophobes come round and change their attitudes once they learned more and got to know some people they were once bigoted against. I strongly believe in people's ability to grow.

If we don't believe in that, then all campaigns and efforts to raise awareness about the differences between people would be in vain. Because the ultimate goal of awareness for differences  is not to kill or exile *bigots* - it is to educate them in order to leave the bigotry behind them.

Now what does this mean in this particular case of the couple Louise and Dave? I think Dave should sit down with Louise and make her aware of two things:

1. My sister may have a disability, but that is nothing to be ashamed about or to hide. In our family, we have always treated it as normal and acceptable, which it is, and I hope that now that you are becoming part of my family, you can follow our example.
If Louise has grown up with the prejudice that a disability is something to be ashamed and afraid of, this may not be easy, this may not be something she can learn in one day - but she can work towards it, and Dave can help her. 

2.  You have gotten ahead of yourself and acted thoughtlessly and this was very hurtful and offensive to my sister. You need to apologise to her and you need to promise to me that this will not happen again. Even if you still feel awkward about people's differences while you learn about them - keep in mind that it is NOT ok to voice this to these people. It's rude and it undermines our relationship with them -  so even if you still have those feelings, keep them to yourself or tell them to me only so that we can work on getting you past it.

I hope Louise will listen to reason.

Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: Dr. F. on September 12, 2012, 05:57:24 PM
I think that Louise should be given a chance to explain herself to Dave so that he can make an informed choice.  I mean, think about how close the bond of SOs & married couples is and how we advocate on ehell to support your SO when dealing with your family - wouldn't you give your SO the benefit of the doubt at least initially when you hear or find out something incredibly awful about them?  I mean if it is true that she is a bigot and didn't just get carried away in some weird power play then I would think less of Dave for going through with the marriage.  But I also think that the nature of their relationship means that she deserves a shot at explaining, not explaining away mind you, her recent behavior.

ETA:  Susan is one classy lady.

I agree.

I do not believe in the statement "bigots never change" that is sometimes tossed around. Every person, no matter how rude or crass, no matter how ignorant or bigoted, who we meet in our lives and / or talk about on this board, is a human being. We should not forget that. People have the ability to learn, to evolve. I personally have seen people who were quite the racists and/or homophobes come round and change their attitudes once they learned more and got to know some people they were once bigoted against. I strongly believe in people's ability to grow.

If we don't believe in that, then all campaigns and efforts to raise awareness about the differences between people would be in vain. Because the ultimate goal of awareness for differences  is not to kill or exile *bigots* - it is to educate them in order to leave the bigotry behind them.

Now what does this mean in this particular case of the couple Louise and Dave? I think Dave should sit down with Louise and make her aware of two things:

1. My sister may have a disability, but that is nothing to be ashamed about or to hide. In our family, we have always treated it as normal and acceptable, which it is, and I hope that now that you are becoming part of my family, you can follow our example.
If Louise has grown up with the prejudice that a disability is something to be ashamed and afraid of, this may not be easy, this may not be something she can learn in one day - but she can work towards it, and Dave can help her. 

2.  You have gotten ahead of yourself and acted thoughtlessly and this was very hurtful and offensive to my sister. You need to apologise to her and you need to promise to me that this will not happen again. Even if you still feel awkward about people's differences while you learn about them - keep in mind that it is NOT ok to voice this to these people. It's rude and it undermines our relationship with them -  so even if you still have those feelings, keep them to yourself or tell them to me only so that we can work on getting you past it.

I hope Louise will listen to reason.

I agree completely with this post.

I also just want to point out that we're getting everything second-hand (unless the OP actually saw the email in question? I'm unclear on that.). Louise may not have worded things as blatantly in her original interactions as were presented here. Not saying anyone has been untruthful - just pointing out there can be some drift in wording as things are passed along.

I hope Louise was having a severe attack of bridezilladom and will recover when slapped (metaphorically!) with reality.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: camlan on September 12, 2012, 06:06:46 PM
My father always thought that babies with disabilities should be put in institutions. He didn't understand why their parents would want to keep them at home. Didn't see why they should be out in society at all.

Dad was in his 70s when his grandson was born with multiple physical disabilities and serious medical problems. Dad became one of his fiercest advocates and champions. He was as proud the day his grandson was able to pick up a toy (at the age of two) and when he said his first word (at three years) and rolled over (at three) as he was of his son winning a Bronze Star.

People can change. Dad spent his final years working with organizations that advocate for the disabled, getting playgrounds for disabled kids installed in several towns, because he saw how much his grandson enjoyed them.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: Dr. F. on September 12, 2012, 06:08:19 PM
My father always thought that babies with disabilities should be put in institutions. He didn't understand why their parents would want to keep them at home. Didn't see why they should be out in society at all.

Dad was in his 70s when his grandson was born with multiple physical disabilities and serious medical problems. Dad became one of his fiercest advocates and champions. He was as proud the day his grandson was able to pick up a toy (at the age of two) and when he said his first word (at three years) and rolled over (at three) as he was of his son winning a Bronze Star.

People can change. Dad spent his final years working with organizations that advocate for the disabled, getting playgrounds for disabled kids installed in several towns, because he saw how much his grandson enjoyed them.

I think I love your Dad.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: KenveeB on September 12, 2012, 06:21:32 PM
We've all seen stories on this board of someone who is otherwise sane and reasonable becoming a total Bridezilla, then regaining sanity after the wedding and going back to being a normal person. I'm hopeful that Louise is simply in the throes of Bridezillaism, focused more on the fit of a dress than "this is my actual FSIL who I am being incredibly offensive to." Maybe if it's pointed out, she'll realize her mistake, make a groveling apology, and she and Dave will go on to have a good life together. Or maybe this is just the thing that shows Dave what kind of person she really is and he'll call off the wedding. I REALLY wish we could have a spy in their conversation!!!
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: whatsanenigma on September 12, 2012, 07:39:21 PM
We've all seen stories on this board of someone who is otherwise sane and reasonable becoming a total Bridezilla, then regaining sanity after the wedding and going back to being a normal person. I'm hopeful that Louise is simply in the throes of Bridezillaism, focused more on the fit of a dress than "this is my actual FSIL who I am being incredibly offensive to." Maybe if it's pointed out, she'll realize her mistake, make a groveling apology, and she and Dave will go on to have a good life together. Or maybe this is just the thing that shows Dave what kind of person she really is and he'll call off the wedding. I REALLY wish we could have a spy in their conversation!!!

I agree very much with this post, as well as with the similar ones made by some other posters.

Just to add a little bit here, while I also am not defending this bride by any means, I do rather enjoy the show "Bridezillas", and to me anyway, it seems like some of them are just not thinking clearly, they are so caught up in the "it's my wedding and must be perfect" that they just aren't thinking about who they are hurting.  Sometimes this seems to be a reflection of their general character, that they are by personality just so shallow that only their own feelings matter, and sometimes it seems to be that they just got caught up in the planning and somehow forgot that they are dealing with people who have feelings, not just with decorations to be changed at will.  And then there are some that genuinely seem to be malicious people who enjoy watching others suffer.

And the fact is, we don't know what kind of person the bride in the OP is.  Maybe she is explicitly malicious but we don't know that.  And even if she is just so focused on herself that she's not seeing the perspective of another, that could also be could be good or bad.  Maybe it's a reflection of general character, that the only needs or wants or feelings that matter are her own and she doesn't care what happens to other people, but it's possible that in her mind, she was doing the right thing, that if it were herself with the disability, that she imagines that she would be most comfortable wearing a prosthetic and wearing a different dress.  Anything to minimize the visual impact of it, because in her mind it is so uncomfortable to look at.

Of course, that is not the correct approach to the thing, in truth.  The more correct approach, I personally think, would have been to ask her how she preferred to handle the situation.  She could have asked her bridesmaid if there was a dress style she would be more comfortable in, would she be wearing the prothstetic and how she thought that would impact what a good style would be, those kinds of questions.  And then, IF she would have been more comfortable with a longer sleeve or whatever, the bride could have chosen a dress for everyone that would accomodate this so that no individual bridesmaid individually stood out.   And because the actual case turned out to be that the bridesmaid actually wanted to wear the dress originally chosen, the bride could have been put at ease that she was NOT offending her bridesmaid or making her uncomfortable in any way.

Well, bottom line, I guess, is that while this bride didn't do the right thing, it might or might not have been out of actual malice or out of a self-centerdness that is a really bad thing, and I hope everyone involved here is able to keep an open mind and figure out what it really is, and if it is some way a bad thing that it can be changed.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: Tea Drinker on September 12, 2012, 08:01:00 PM
Maybe (as Camlan suggested) Louise can't help her reaction to the sight of Susan's arm. But she can help how she deals with it.

The simplest thing would have been for her not to ask Susan to be a bridesmaid in the first place. If Dave asked her to, she could have said something like she was sorry, and she knew it was her problem, but she was still working on getting used to his sister's looks, and didn't want to make her uncomfortable by staring in the meantime. (A polite excuse for "not be uncomfortable herself," but I suspect Dave wouldn't have pushed her on that.)

Or the bride could have put all four bridesmaids in long-sleeved dresses and lived with knowing that one woman would have an empty sleeve, possibly pinned up. The problem isn't the long sleeves, it's the distinction between Susan and the other bridesmaids and the insistence on the prosthetic.

It's almost certainly too late for that now, of course: the fence-mending here is (assuming they go through with the wedding) for the bride-to-be to have any sort of decent relationship with Susan, if only for the sake of Dave's relationships with each of them.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: Venus193 on September 12, 2012, 08:15:55 PM
The best solution ideally would have been to have the bridesmaids wear the same color but choose their preferred style of dress with skirt length being the common denominator.  However, this probably would not have satisfied Louise.

Hope we get an update soon.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: Gyburc on September 13, 2012, 04:52:02 AM
I'm also waiting for the update, and hoping that Louise offers a sincere apology.

I do find the whole situation rather ironic... I work in a building with a lady who is missing the lower half of her right arm and does not wear a prosthetic, and I only noticed it after I had spoken to her at least three times in passing. If Susan was to wear a sleeveless dress to match the other bridesmaids, particularly if they were all wearing wraps and/or holding flowers, I doubt that many people would even notice.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: TootsNYC on September 13, 2012, 06:25:09 AM
The best solution ideally would have been to have the bridesmaids wear the same color but choose their preferred style of dress with skirt length being the common denominator.  However, this probably would not have satisfied Louise.

Hope we get an update soon.

How would that have fixed Louise's problem? It doesn't address it at all.

Louise's problem was NOT in finding a dress that everybody liked (which is what Dave had assumed it was).

Her problem was that Susan's arm makes her uncomfortable.

Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: Bethalize on September 13, 2012, 06:26:32 AM
When sufficiently advanced ignorance is indistinguishable from malice.  I don't know whose law that is a paraphrase of (Grey?) but it does apply in these situations.

I hope everything works out. The best outcome I can hope for is that Louise was under pressure from a third party and caved in to writing that awful email. It's good that Dave got a chance to find this out though.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: Venus193 on September 13, 2012, 06:43:05 AM
The best solution ideally would have been to have the bridesmaids wear the same color but choose their preferred style of dress with skirt length being the common denominator.  However, this probably would not have satisfied Louise.

Hope we get an update soon.

How would that have fixed Louise's problem? It doesn't address it at all.

Louise's problem was NOT in finding a dress that everybody liked (which is what Dave had assumed it was).

Her problem was that Susan's arm makes her uncomfortable.

You are right; I was an idiot.

What I am curious about now is:

Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: Piratelvr1121 on September 13, 2012, 06:48:54 AM
The best solution ideally would have been to have the bridesmaids wear the same color but choose their preferred style of dress with skirt length being the common denominator.  However, this probably would not have satisfied Louise.

Hope we get an update soon.

How would that have fixed Louise's problem? It doesn't address it at all.

Louise's problem was NOT in finding a dress that everybody liked (which is what Dave had assumed it was).

Her problem was that Susan's arm makes her uncomfortable.

You are right; I was an idiot.

What I am curious about now is:

  • How long have Louise and Dave been together?
  • How long ago did she meet Susan?
  • Why did she wait until now to spew this venom?

Not the OP, but my guess as to the bolded is that she waited this long cause she figures this close to the wedding, in her mind he's "trapped"
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: TootsNYC on September 13, 2012, 07:19:25 AM
that implies a level of planning that I think is a bit unfair to presume.

It's also possible that she had input from other people who are also caught up in the "bridezilla" mentality. Another bridesmaid (close friend) with whom she was sharing her not-polite emotional reaction who egged her on. Or, she bought into the idea that "the bride should not have any discomfort on her wedding day!" idea (though brides who think that are automatically creating more stress for themselves)..
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: Twik on September 13, 2012, 09:13:20 AM
that implies a level of planning that I think is a bit unfair to presume.

It's also possible that she had input from other people who are also caught up in the "bridezilla" mentality. Another bridesmaid (close friend) with whom she was sharing her not-polite emotional reaction who egged her on. Or, she bought into the idea that "the bride should not have any discomfort on her wedding day!" idea (though brides who think that are automatically creating more stress for themselves)..

I think Toots may be right - perhaps one of her friends expressed horror that "you'll see her missing arm in all the photos. They won't be PERFECT!" and she started to obsess about it. Just like all those brides who panic about bridesmaids with tattoos/long hair/short hair/excessive height or weight/lack of height or weight/excessive age/excessive pregnancy. They no longer see them as their friends, they see them as extras in the Big Production.

If Dave is frank with her that this is unacceptable, there is a chance that she might snap out of this, and it may not be a permanent indication of her values. At least, I hope so. But Dave has to step up to the plate.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: SuperMartianRobotGirl on September 13, 2012, 09:24:24 AM
that implies a level of planning that I think is a bit unfair to presume.

It's also possible that she had input from other people who are also caught up in the "bridezilla" mentality. Another bridesmaid (close friend) with whom she was sharing her not-polite emotional reaction who egged her on. Or, she bought into the idea that "the bride should not have any discomfort on her wedding day!" idea (though brides who think that are automatically creating more stress for themselves)..

I think Toots may be right - perhaps one of her friends expressed horror that "you'll see her missing arm in all the photos. They won't be PERFECT!" and she started to obsess about it. Just like all those brides who panic about bridesmaids with tattoos/long hair/short hair/excessive height or weight/lack of height or weight/excessive age/excessive pregnancy. They no longer see them as their friends, they see them as extras in the Big Production.

If Dave is frank with her that this is unacceptable, there is a chance that she might snap out of this, and it may not be a permanent indication of her values. At least, I hope so. But Dave has to step up to the plate.

I don't know. I'm of the school of thought that people who go Bridezilla-ish when they're getting married aren't just sufferint from temporary insanity. I think they're showing their true colors. If she heard someone worry around her that her wedding photos might not be perfect because her future sister-in-law has a disability, and her response was anything other than supportive of her future sister-in-law with the disability, I think it speaks very poorly of her.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: lowspark on September 13, 2012, 09:42:28 AM
You know, Susan is the sister of the groom, not just any guest. Even if Louise had never asked Susan to be a bridesmaid, Susan would necessarily be in wedding photos. It occurs to me that there is a possibility that the very reason Louise asked Susan to be a bridesmaid was so that she could dictate what she wears to the wedding. After all, if Susan weren't going to be a bridesmaid in the first place, Louise would have had no reason to say a single word about Susan's attire for the wedding. I think it might have come as a shock to Louise that Susan didn't just say OK to whatever Louise asked in order to be an accommodating bridesmaid.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: GSNW on September 13, 2012, 09:49:26 AM
It occurs to me that there is a possibility that the very reason Louise asked Susan to be a bridesmaid was so that she could dictate what she wears to the wedding. After all, if Susan weren't going to be a bridesmaid in the first place, Louise would have had no reason to say a single word about Susan's attire for the wedding.

This makes sense, especially given the fact that when Susan declined to wear the chosen dress and the prosthesis, she was asked not to come at all.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: RingTailedLemur on September 13, 2012, 10:39:08 AM
It occurs to me that there is a possibility that the very reason Louise asked Susan to be a bridesmaid was so that she could dictate what she wears to the wedding. After all, if Susan weren't going to be a bridesmaid in the first place, Louise would have had no reason to say a single word about Susan's attire for the wedding.

This makes sense, especially given the fact that when Susan declined to wear the chosen dress and the prosthesis, she was asked not to come at all.

Yes, I think that might be the case as well.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: HonorH on September 13, 2012, 12:33:49 PM
When sufficiently advanced ignorance is indistinguishable from malice.  I don't know whose law that is a paraphrase of (Grey?) but it does apply in these situations.

Clarke's Law: "Sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: Danika on September 13, 2012, 01:33:40 PM
I'm of the school of thought that people who go Bridezilla-ish when they're getting married aren't just sufferint from temporary insanity. I think they're showing their true colors.

POD. Plenty of brides and grooms are stressed out about their weddings. Plenty of people are stressed about life, in general. Many of them still manage to be thoughtful of others.

Laura didn't have to have Susan in family wedding photos if she didn't want to. DH and I had a BWW, but we didn't have extended family in posed photos.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: Cami on September 13, 2012, 02:01:21 PM
I'm of the school of thought that people who go Bridezilla-ish when they're getting married aren't just sufferint from temporary insanity. I think they're showing their true colors.

POD. Plenty of brides and grooms are stressed out about their weddings. Plenty of people are stressed about life, in general. Many of them still manage to be thoughtful of others.


As the saying goes, "Crisis does not build character, it reveals it."
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: FauxFoodist on September 13, 2012, 02:07:10 PM
I'm of the school of thought that people who go Bridezilla-ish when they're getting married aren't just sufferint from temporary insanity. I think they're showing their true colors.

POD. Plenty of brides and grooms are stressed out about their weddings. Plenty of people are stressed about life, in general. Many of them still manage to be thoughtful of others.


As the saying goes, "Crisis does not build character, it reveals it."

Throwing in my pod.  I've never thought that this behavior is only because of their wedding.  I'm planning my own and have managed to not go bridezilla (although I did warn the best man that I will if he continues to press me on trivial matters that are months from being a concern, like who is going to bring back the wedding gifts from the reception, then I just might go bridezilla on him -- he's a bit obsessive and very controlling).
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: Hunter-Gatherer on September 13, 2012, 02:11:29 PM
I'm of the school of thought that people who go Bridezilla-ish when they're getting married aren't just sufferint from temporary insanity. I think they're showing their true colors.

POD. Plenty of brides and grooms are stressed out about their weddings. Plenty of people are stressed about life, in general. Many of them still manage to be thoughtful of others.


As the saying goes, "Crisis does not build character, it reveals it."

Another POD to this one.  If someone can't handle the stress of a wedding, how are they going to handle having kids, or serious illness, or problems with a house, or job, or any number of other things that can be just as stressful.

If I were engaged to someone who started acting like a bridezilla, I'd be calling it off.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: Diane AKA Traska on September 14, 2012, 12:06:48 PM
When sufficiently advanced ignorance is indistinguishable from malice.  I don't know whose law that is a paraphrase of (Grey?) but it does apply in these situations.

Clarke's Law: "Sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

Diane's Corollary:  Sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology.
("Class, today we are going to begin chapter seven of Thaumaturgy For Intermediate Studies.   We will begin by outlining the proper methodology for dimensionally displacing infernal invaders, including the biology, ecology, and behavior of several species of demon.  Tomorrow, you'll all get to dissect an actual imp, so be sure that you have all of your vaccinations for possession and corruption up to date.")

Ahem.  On topic, I agree that this was most likely a planned thing... get Susan to wear the garment that makes her look "normal" so she doesn't embarrass Louise.  How thoroughly despicable.

On that note... bring on the updates!
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: Piratelvr1121 on September 14, 2012, 08:05:44 PM
Personally I think the different dress would just call attention to the arm. I've heard of there being a different dress for the MOH to set her apart from the rest, but unless Susan was dubbed MOH, Louise can't really claim it was so innocent.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: Danika on September 14, 2012, 08:40:47 PM
Personally I think the different dress would just call attention to the arm. I've heard of there being a different dress for the MOH to set her apart from the rest, but unless Susan was dubbed MOH, Louise can't really claim it was so innocent.

I agree. I wouldn't be as focused on the bride. Can you imagine being a guest, sitting there, trying to pay attention to the vows, the whole time thinking "why are all the bridesmaids in one outfit and then that one girl, third down the line is wearing a different dress. Why?" And then eventually you'd see that she had a missing limb and then you'd think "Oh, was she trying to hide the prosthesis? Is that what's up with the dress? Poor girl is so self-conscious that she is wearing a different dress. How nice of the bride to let her wear a different dress because she's so self-conscious." And you'd miss all the vows because you'd be staring at the one bridesmaid the whole time.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: Petticoats on September 17, 2012, 04:07:03 PM
Bumping in hope of an update. I'd love to know what the fallout was after the groom learned what his unlovely BTB had told his sister. Is the wedding still on?
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: Shoo on September 17, 2012, 08:13:11 PM
I'm of the school of thought that people who go Bridezilla-ish when they're getting married aren't just sufferint from temporary insanity. I think they're showing their true colors.

POD. Plenty of brides and grooms are stressed out about their weddings. Plenty of people are stressed about life, in general. Many of them still manage to be thoughtful of others.

Laura didn't have to have Susan in family wedding photos if she didn't want to. DH and I had a BWW, but we didn't have extended family in posed photos.

But Susan isn't extended family.  She's the groom's sister!  That's immediate family.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: Kimblee on September 17, 2012, 08:59:06 PM
I'm also waiting for the update, and hoping that Louise offers a sincere apology.

I do find the whole situation rather ironic... I work in a building with a lady who is missing the lower half of her right arm and does not wear a prosthetic, and I only noticed it after I had spoken to her at least three times in passing. If Susan was to wear a sleeveless dress to match the other bridesmaids, particularly if they were all wearing wraps and/or holding flowers, I doubt that many people would even notice.

I did this in high school. (Didn't notice a missing limb for awhile.) Its off topic and I really just want updates to this so I'll post the story in the "things not to laugh at" thread.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: Otterpop on September 17, 2012, 09:25:20 PM
Kimblee, I went looking for that thread and couldn't find it.  Darn it,  I was anticipating some good reading.  If it doesn't exist, you need to start it (we'll all contribute).
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: Kimblee on September 17, 2012, 09:29:13 PM
Kimblee, I went looking for that thread and couldn't find it.  Darn it,  I was anticipating some good reading.  If it doesn't exist, you need to start it (we'll all contribute).

http://www.etiquettehell.com/smf/index.php?topic=78436.0

Much silliness.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: Danika on September 17, 2012, 09:56:10 PM
I'm of the school of thought that people who go Bridezilla-ish when they're getting married aren't just sufferint from temporary insanity. I think they're showing their true colors.

POD. Plenty of brides and grooms are stressed out about their weddings. Plenty of people are stressed about life, in general. Many of them still manage to be thoughtful of others.

Laura didn't have to have Susan in family wedding photos if she didn't want to. DH and I had a BWW, but we didn't have extended family in posed photos.

But Susan isn't extended family.  She's the groom's sister!  That's immediate family.

Depends on your viewpoint. Once the bride and groom are married (and possibly have kids, or bride and bride, groom and groom are married - as discussed up thread by others) they are immediate family and their siblings, parents, etc. are generally then considered extended family.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: Otterpop on September 17, 2012, 10:31:14 PM
Kimblee, I went looking for that thread and couldn't find it.  Darn it,  I was anticipating some good reading.  If it doesn't exist, you need to start it (we'll all contribute).

http://www.etiquettehell.com/smf/index.php?topic=78436.0

Much silliness.

Thank you!
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: Aeris on September 18, 2012, 02:24:03 AM
I'm of the school of thought that people who go Bridezilla-ish when they're getting married aren't just sufferint from temporary insanity. I think they're showing their true colors.

POD. Plenty of brides and grooms are stressed out about their weddings. Plenty of people are stressed about life, in general. Many of them still manage to be thoughtful of others.

Laura didn't have to have Susan in family wedding photos if she didn't want to. DH and I had a BWW, but we didn't have extended family in posed photos.

But Susan isn't extended family.  She's the groom's sister!  That's immediate family.

Depends on your viewpoint. Once the bride and groom are married (and possibly have kids, or bride and bride, groom and groom are married - as discussed up thread by others) they are immediate family and their siblings, parents, etc. are generally then considered extended family.

Ok, fine, but honestly when most people say "family wedding photos", they mean "wedding photos with original family members of the bride and groom".  I've never, ever, ever heard anyone use the phrase 'family wedding photos' to refer to pictures of the bride and groom only, with no one else. Then they'd just be 'wedding photos'.*

It's hugely common to have 'brideandgroom and bride's parents/siblings', then 'brideandgroom and groom's parents/siblings', etc.



*I could see someone using the phrase 'family wedding photos' to refer to a bride and groom with children shot, but as it doesn't appear that this particular bride and groom have children, it's not that relevant.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: NyaChan on September 18, 2012, 10:18:50 AM
Aeris' interpretation is the one I am most familiar with as well.  When I've heard the phrase family photos at a wedding, it has never meant photos of just the bride and groom.  It always includes people other than the bride and the groom, but in some cases doesn't even have the happy couple in it.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: Shoo on September 18, 2012, 11:32:50 AM
I'm of the school of thought that people who go Bridezilla-ish when they're getting married aren't just sufferint from temporary insanity. I think they're showing their true colors.

POD. Plenty of brides and grooms are stressed out about their weddings. Plenty of people are stressed about life, in general. Many of them still manage to be thoughtful of others.

Laura didn't have to have Susan in family wedding photos if she didn't want to. DH and I had a BWW, but we didn't have extended family in posed photos.

But Susan isn't extended family.  She's the groom's sister!  That's immediate family.

Depends on your viewpoint. Once the bride and groom are married (and possibly have kids, or bride and bride, groom and groom are married - as discussed up thread by others) they are immediate family and their siblings, parents, etc. are generally then considered extended family.

So you would apply that to the very instant they got married, so that brothers and sisters could be left out of the wedding pictures? 

I find that very strange.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: Twik on September 18, 2012, 12:24:16 PM
There's no requirement to take wedding pictures at all.

If they want to have them, they can be HC only, HC plus parents only, HC+parents+siblings, HC+everyone they've ever met.

What they can't do (without causing serious offense) is have all the other siblings, or all their friends, and leave one sister out because she's not "perfect" enough.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: wyliefool on September 18, 2012, 12:40:54 PM
Personally, I think she shd invite Oscar Pistorius to attend as her date (hopefully wearing his nifty racing legs).  8)
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: Asharah on September 18, 2012, 12:43:47 PM
Personally, I think she shd invite Oscar Pistorius to attend as her date (hopefully wearing his nifty racing legs).  8)
But how would her husband feel about that?  ;D
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: Danika on September 18, 2012, 02:34:36 PM
I didn't use the term "family wedding photos" I said "extended family." I don't think of siblings and parents as immediate family now that I'm married. But that's because I belong to another board where that's the concensus. Many of the religious folks on that board (and I'm not religious) even use the term "leave and cleave" to explain why they think this.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: violinp on September 18, 2012, 03:13:13 PM
I didn't use the term "family wedding photos" I said "extended family." I don't think of siblings and parents as immediate family now that I'm married. But that's because I belong to another board where that's the concensus. Many of the religious folks on that board (and I'm not religious) even use the term "leave and cleave" to explain why they think this.

But...biologically, they're still immediate family.  ??? My sister and parents don't start being extended family just because I made promises to my (hypothetical) DH. They are extended family to my spouse, as is his family to me. For the record, I'm of a religion that subscribes to the aforementioned leaving and cleaving. To me, extended family is my grandparents, uncles, aunts, cousins, and all the "greats," not my biologically immediate family.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: Diane AKA Traska on September 18, 2012, 03:18:17 PM
I didn't use the term "family wedding photos" I said "extended family." I don't think of siblings and parents as immediate family now that I'm married. But that's because I belong to another board where that's the concensus. Many of the religious folks on that board (and I'm not religious) even use the term "leave and cleave" to explain why they think this.

But...biologically, they're still immediate family.  ??? My sister and parents don't start being extended family just because I made promises to my (hypothetical) DH. They are extended family to my spouse, as is his family to me. For the record, I'm of a religion that subscribes to the aforementioned leaving and cleaving. To me, extended family is my grandparents, uncles, aunts, cousins, and all the "greats," not my biologically immediate family.

Right,t he way I see it, immediate family is one degree of separation.  Your mother and father each contributed genes, and they also contributed to your siblings.  One degree out is where extended starts... grandparents are contributed to your parents' genes, who contributed to yours.  Aunts/uncles are related directly to your parents, but are extended *to you*.  I can't imagine my mother being thought of as extended family.  She's most certainly immediate.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: Danika on September 18, 2012, 03:27:17 PM
Here's a definition of extended family (https://www.google.com/#hl=en&q=extended+family&tbs=dfn:1&tbo=u&sa=X&ei=6NdYUM3sAoSHygHYvoCIAQ&sqi=2&ved=0CBwQkQ4&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&fp=5078159144f73fa1&biw=1280&bih=641). I think it could go either way.

"A family that extends beyond the nuclear family, including grandparents, aunts, uncles, and other relatives, who all live nearby or in one household."

I consider my nuclear family to be me, DH and our kids. We live in the same house and we don't live with any of the others. DH and I were in our 20s when we married and had not lived with our parents for 10 years, so we already considered them to be extended family. That doesn't mean that other people have to go by my definition, but to us, we define our parents as extended family.

My original point was that while many people might choose to have their siblings in wedding photos. I know many others who have not. If Louise and Dave are paying for the photographer, it should not be assumed that for certain Susan would be included in a lot of the photos. Especially if she wasn't in the wedding party to begin with, which Louise should never have invited her to be a part of if she were not comfortable with Susan, for whatever reason.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: Diane AKA Traska on September 18, 2012, 03:57:08 PM
Here's a definition of extended family (https://www.google.com/#hl=en&q=extended+family&tbs=dfn:1&tbo=u&sa=X&ei=6NdYUM3sAoSHygHYvoCIAQ&sqi=2&ved=0CBwQkQ4&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&fp=5078159144f73fa1&biw=1280&bih=641). I think it could go either way.

"A family that extends beyond the nuclear family, including grandparents, aunts, uncles, and other relatives, who all live nearby or in one household."

I consider my nuclear family to be me, DH and our kids. We live in the same house and we don't live with any of the others. DH and I were in our 20s when we married and had not lived with our parents for 10 years, so we already considered them to be extended family. That doesn't mean that other people have to go by my definition, but to us, we define our parents as extended family.

My original point was that while many people might choose to have their siblings in wedding photos. I know many others who have not. If Louise and Dave are paying for the photographer, it should not be assumed that for certain Susan would be included in a lot of the photos. Especially if she wasn't in the wedding party to begin with, which Louise should never have invited her to be a part of if she were not comfortable with Susan, for whatever reason.

By that definition, a student away at college has no immediate family.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: Elfmama on September 18, 2012, 04:02:59 PM
Especially if she wasn't in the wedding party to begin with, which Louise should never have invited her to be a part of if she were not comfortable with Susan, for whatever reason.
I think a PP was dead on target when they said that Susan was asked to be in the wedding party so that Louise could dictate her dress and hide her arm.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: baglady on September 18, 2012, 06:37:03 PM
By my definition, immediate family = one's parents, siblings, spouse(s) and children. Not grandparents/grandkids, cousins or in-laws. My grandmother and aunts are members of my parent's immediate family but not mine. My spouse's siblings are members of his immediate family but not mine. My sister's spouse is a member of her immediate family but not mine. My kids are members of my spouse's and my immediate family but not our parents' or siblings'.*

But we don't need to get bogged down with definitions of what does and doesn't constitute immediate family, and who should or shouldn't be in the "family" photos. That's up to the B&G to decide. Bottom line is, family or not, photos or no photos, Louise is not being very nice to Susan.

*Generic "my/mine" -- I don't have a spouse, kids or living grandparents.

Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: HonorH on September 18, 2012, 06:58:59 PM
I didn't use the term "family wedding photos" I said "extended family." I don't think of siblings and parents as immediate family now that I'm married. But that's because I belong to another board where that's the concensus. Many of the religious folks on that board (and I'm not religious) even use the term "leave and cleave" to explain why they think this.

Okay, but whom did you consider "immediate family" at your wedding? I understand calling your husband and children your "immediate family" once you're established, but, short of living together and having children beforehand, if you had an "immediate family-only" wedding, would that mean only you and your fiance/husband would have been there? Or would that designation have included parents and siblings?
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: Danika on September 18, 2012, 07:37:04 PM
I didn't use the term "family wedding photos" I said "extended family." I don't think of siblings and parents as immediate family now that I'm married. But that's because I belong to another board where that's the concensus. Many of the religious folks on that board (and I'm not religious) even use the term "leave and cleave" to explain why they think this.

Okay, but whom did you consider "immediate family" at your wedding? I understand calling your husband and children your "immediate family" once you're established, but, short of living together and having children beforehand, if you had an "immediate family-only" wedding, would that mean only you and your fiance/husband would have been there? Or would that designation have included parents and siblings?

We didn't have an immediate family-only wedding. We had a BWW full of friends and extended family. DH and I are closer to our friends than we are to family members. Our photographer was instructed to take photos of the wedding party, me with the bridesmaids, DH with his groomsmen, all of us (DH, me, BMs and groomsen) together. DH and I don't have full-blood siblings, so I've never considered that either way. DH had foster siblings and there are adult children of his new step-mother, but she married his father only a few years before we married. He hasn't met them and we didn't even know their full names to invite them, much less have photos with them.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: rose red on September 18, 2012, 07:45:19 PM
Just because the bride might not want Susan in the pictures because she's not "immediate" family doesn't mean the groom (the brother) doesn't want his sister and other "immediate" family in the pictures.  And if the bride refuses to be in any pictures with the groom’s family, he better take a good hard look at the person he’s marrying.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: Aeris on September 18, 2012, 08:06:20 PM
I didn't use the term "family wedding photos" I said "extended family." I don't think of siblings and parents as immediate family now that I'm married. But that's because I belong to another board where that's the concensus. Many of the religious folks on that board (and I'm not religious) even use the term "leave and cleave" to explain why they think this.


Sure you did.


<snip>
Laura didn't have to have Susan in family wedding photos if she didn't want to. DH and I had a BWW, but we didn't have extended family in posed photos.


Most people use the term 'family wedding photos' to mean 'photos with the bride and groom and one or both of their original immediate families'. Using the term to mean 'pictures of just the bride and groom alone' would be unusual and a bit odd.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: Danika on September 18, 2012, 08:14:50 PM
I didn't use the term "family wedding photos" I said "extended family." I don't think of siblings and parents as immediate family now that I'm married. But that's because I belong to another board where that's the concensus. Many of the religious folks on that board (and I'm not religious) even use the term "leave and cleave" to explain why they think this.


Sure you did.


<snip>
Laura didn't have to have Susan in family wedding photos if she didn't want to. DH and I had a BWW, but we didn't have extended family in posed photos.


Most people use the term 'family wedding photos' to mean 'photos with the bride and groom and one or both of their original immediate families'. Using the term to mean 'pictures of just the bride and groom alone' would be unusual and a bit odd.

Let me correct myself and use correct phrasing and semantics then. Here's what I was trying to say:

Laura didn't have to have Susan in family wedding photos if she didn't want to. Laura and Dave don't have to have family wedding photos. DH and I had a BWW, but we didn't have extended family in posed photos.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: Sharnita on September 18, 2012, 08:20:28 PM
I didn't use the term "family wedding photos" I said "extended family." I don't think of siblings and parents as immediate family now that I'm married. But that's because I belong to another board where that's the concensus. Many of the religious folks on that board (and I'm not religious) even use the term "leave and cleave" to explain why they think this.


Sure you did.


<snip>
Laura didn't have to have Susan in family wedding photos if she didn't want to. DH and I had a BWW, but we didn't have extended family in posed photos.


Most people use the term 'family wedding photos' to mean 'photos with the bride and groom and one or both of their original immediate families'. Using the term to mean 'pictures of just the bride and groom alone' would be unusual and a bit odd.

Let me correct myself and use correct phrasing and semantics then. Here's what I was trying to say:

Laura didn't have to have Susan in family wedding photos if she didn't want to. Laura and Dave don't have to have family wedding photos. DH and I had a BWW, but we didn't have extended family in posed photos.

I would say her husband would have equal say in that.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: Danika on September 18, 2012, 08:22:54 PM
I didn't use the term "family wedding photos" I said "extended family." I don't think of siblings and parents as immediate family now that I'm married. But that's because I belong to another board where that's the concensus. Many of the religious folks on that board (and I'm not religious) even use the term "leave and cleave" to explain why they think this.


Sure you did.


<snip>
Laura didn't have to have Susan in family wedding photos if she didn't want to. DH and I had a BWW, but we didn't have extended family in posed photos.


Most people use the term 'family wedding photos' to mean 'photos with the bride and groom and one or both of their original immediate families'. Using the term to mean 'pictures of just the bride and groom alone' would be unusual and a bit odd.

Let me correct myself and use correct phrasing and semantics then. Here's what I was trying to say:

Laura didn't have to have Susan in family wedding photos if she didn't want to. Laura and Dave don't have to have family wedding photos. DH and I had a BWW, but we didn't have extended family in posed photos.

I would say her husband would have equal say in that.

I would agree.

But she'll have to discuss it with him. And it sounds like she'd rather lie and throw Susan under then bus than discuss things like this with him.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: sparksals on September 18, 2012, 08:53:14 PM
What one considers to be immediate family vs extended is subjective and dependent upon one's beliefs.  I can see why Danika views her nuclear family as immediate.  She has no siblings, nor does her husband except for foster siblings and step siblings he has never met.  This is a very personal thing and not a clear cut definition. 

For the record, I consider my parents and sibling and Dh's parents and siblings to be 'immediate'.  That doesn't mean everyone does.  It all depends on the relationship, if the grew up together etc. 
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: Asharah on September 18, 2012, 09:11:04 PM
Are we getting a little off-topic here?
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: snowdragon on September 18, 2012, 09:40:48 PM
OP: Updates?
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: wyliefool on September 19, 2012, 07:29:20 AM
Personally, I think she shd invite Oscar Pistorius to attend as her date (hopefully wearing his nifty racing legs).  8)
But how would her husband feel about that?  ;D

I had forgotten about him, yes. But he might be willing to step aside for the day just to annoy Louise.  ;)
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: Roe on September 19, 2012, 08:23:20 AM
Are we getting a little off-topic here?

You think?  ;)

I'm more interested to find out if there are any updates.  OP?   ;D
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: artk2002 on September 19, 2012, 09:52:59 AM
Are we really analyzing the vague terms "immediate" and "extended" in the context of whether the groom's sister should or shouldn't be in some official wedding photos? Personally, I think that excluding the groom's sister from any official photo would be wrong. That's true whether she was excluded because she wasn't "immediate" enough or because she had a prosthetic arm.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: ScubaGirl on September 19, 2012, 10:28:28 AM
Op, still no news?
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: Brockwest on September 21, 2012, 07:34:55 AM
The sister should not go to the wedding and should calmly respond with the truth when asked that "the bride doesn't like that I don't have an arm." There are several reasons for this.  First, since the bride will become part of the family, this will be the first of many such possible confrontations...birthdays, holidays, special events. It's not something that will go away, and should be faced now. Second, the true story needs to come out as I firmly believe the bride will blame the sister for not coming to the wedding, so the sister needs truth to be on her side. Third, the bride's behavior and how it will affect the family in years to come needs to be addressed prior to the wedding.  I absolutely believe the sister's parents will be outraged.  It's better to find out before the wedding how far the problem will go, and if a wedding should even take place.
It is not at all rude for the sister to tell the truth. I don't feel telling the truth is the same as putting posters up in the neighborhood or taking out an ad in the newspaper.
Substitute for the word disability, the words race/religion/place of origin, and see if you would still want the sister to remain quiet.  "You can't come to the wedding because you are the wrong race/relgion/place of origin."
I don't believe the sister's parents will attend the wedding. 
I would not attend the wedding. 

Let's try looking at it another way, for the posters who want the sister to stay silent. Say it is your child that has a disability and someone insists you do something to hide their disability and tells your child. How would you feel?  What would you do?  Would that person still be standing after you heard them tell your child to hide their disability/crutches/wheelchair/face?
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: sammycat on September 21, 2012, 10:23:09 AM
I completely agree with you, Brockwest. 

And welcome to the board!  :)
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: Brockwest on September 21, 2012, 11:27:02 AM
Thank you Sam!
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: artk2002 on September 21, 2012, 11:49:25 AM
Perhaps Dave needs to share EHellDame's latest blog post with Louise.  http://www.etiquettehell.com/?p=3452 (http://www.etiquettehell.com/?p=3452)
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: Salvage3 on September 21, 2012, 11:49:51 AM
Brockwest, I totally agree with your very-well-written posting.  And I also welcome you aboard.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: rain on September 21, 2012, 06:16:49 PM
OP - any further updates?
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: Brockwest on September 21, 2012, 07:01:44 PM
Thank you Salvage  :)
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: wolfie on September 21, 2012, 07:05:02 PM
I doubt we will get any updates. If the wedding hasn't been called off them the brother and Louise are working things out and I would expect the details of that to be kept between the couple.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: MummyPumpkin83 on September 21, 2012, 09:23:48 PM
posting for updates, if we get any.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: VorFemme on September 21, 2012, 09:30:01 PM
Darn - this was one that I wanted to find out what happened.

I suppose it may take a while for the OP to get back to us, if there is a delay in the wedding for Susan's brother & Louise to work through whether or not her distaste for his sister is a deal killer.

Or perhaps she found out that there is a genetic risk to her children of the same thing and Louise is having to decide if that is a deal killer......?
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: Bethalize on September 22, 2012, 10:57:36 AM
Or perhaps she found out that there is a genetic risk to her children of the same thing and Louise is having to decide if that is a deal killer......?

That made me suck air in very sharply.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: greencat on September 22, 2012, 01:50:46 PM
The wedding isn't until November, if I remember the OP correctly - we might not get an update on the situation until then unless the wedding gets called off.

Also, if I was Susan's brother, I'd have changed her role in the wedding from being one of the bride's attendants to being one of the groom's attendants.  I feel like assigning the bride/groom attendant roles based on gender rather than which half of the couple you're closest to is a little outdated...
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: VorFemme on September 22, 2012, 02:53:15 PM
Or perhaps she found out that there is a genetic risk to her children of the same thing and Louise is having to decide if that is a deal killer......?

That made me suck air in very sharply.

I don't remember if it was the OP or someone else who mentioned that there is a genetic component to something that causes more females than males to be born this way.  I don't know why Susan has half an arm (I'm assuming that she is way too young to be a Thalidomide [sp] baby) - but if it is genetic and not a developmental anomaly......well, I don't know what Louise's reaction would be to being told that one of her daughters could end up looking a lot like Aunt Susan.

I don't know what her reaction would be - but I'm guessing that it wouldn't be something she is thinking about it.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: asb8 on September 22, 2012, 02:55:36 PM
Hi folks,

Sorry for the delay, I just recently heard from Susan.

The wedding will go ahead as planned, however since Susan has two young children to keep track of, it would be easier for her not to be in the wedding party.  This is what Susan plans to tell anyone who asks, as Susan told Louise she would keep this "disgraceful incident*" between them.  There was someone sort of confrontation between them that I don't have details on, but Susan seems pleased with the outcome.

Susan did tell me that everyone has at least one really stupid moment in their lives, that hopefully this was Louise's, and she will let it drop provided nothing like this ever happens again.  She isn't going to hold it against her brother for marrying Louise.  They love each other and make each other happy.  And Susan loves her brother.  She really wants his weddding day to be happy and unclouded, and she's willing to do her part to make that happen.

*Actual phrase used when Susan spoke to Louise. 

PS-to answer recent queries, I don't think there is a genetic componant to Susan's arm.  Both her kids have all limbs and she wasn't particularly worried about it when she was pregnant with them.

Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update pg. 9, 15, 20, 29
Post by: Diane AKA Traska on September 22, 2012, 03:43:20 PM
Wow.

I'm going to be the first to say it: I actually feel that Dave is worse than Louise in this, unless Louise *grovelled* to Susan.  Anyone who told a family member of mine "oh sorry, I only want normal* looking people at my wedding, and you're not," I'd have to tell them "You can count me out, too."

* -- Likely Louise's thinking, not mine!
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update pg. 9, 15, 20, 29
Post by: GreenBird on September 22, 2012, 03:59:09 PM
I just want to say that Susan is really a class act! 

Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update pg. 9, 15, 20, 29
Post by: Piratelvr1121 on September 22, 2012, 04:00:56 PM
Wow.

I'm going to be the first to say it: I actually feel that Dave is worse than Louise in this, unless Louise *grovelled* to Susan.  Anyone who told a family member of mine "oh sorry, I only want normal* looking people at my wedding, and you're not," I'd have to tell them "You can count me out, too."

* -- Likely Louise's thinking, not mine!

Wow. Yeah, me too. I know if I had found out prior to a wedding that my betrothed was as nasty as Louise is being, I'd say to my fiance "Don't let the door hit ya where the good Lord split ya."  I wouldn't marry someone who proved themselves to be this narrow minded.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: DollyPond on September 22, 2012, 04:17:19 PM
snip

 There was someone sort of confrontation between them that I don't have details on, but Susan seems pleased with the outcome.

snip

My guess is that there was first a "confrontation" between Dave and Louise and that Louise then turned it around onto Susan.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update pg. 9, 15, 20, 29
Post by: LeveeWoman on September 22, 2012, 04:31:54 PM
Susan is the epitome of grace.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update pg. 9, 15, 20, 29
Post by: Danika on September 22, 2012, 04:57:58 PM
Susan is the epitome of grace.

POD
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update pg. 9, 15, 20, 29
Post by: JenJay on September 22, 2012, 05:04:38 PM
It sounds like Dave confronted Louise and the compromise they came up with was that Susan will attend the wedding but not be in it. I'm not sure how I feel about Dave anymore, but it doesn't matter since I don't know him. All my best to Susan!
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update pg. 9, 15, 20, 29
Post by: PastryGoddess on September 22, 2012, 05:34:21 PM
I think it's a bit much to think that Dave should have immediately called of the wedding and left Louise high and dry.  I think that their relationship is more than this one incredibly stupid act of Louise's. 

While Louise did act disgracefully, I think Dave is to be commended for confronting his fiance so close to the wedding.  Remember he thought it was a dress dispute at first, when Dave was fully informed of what happened he made it perfectly clear that Susan WAS welcome to the wedding no matter what.   How many times on this forum have we seen examples where the Groom did not stand up for his family and allowed the mistreatment to continue for years.

And I think what matters is that both Dave AND Susan are happy with the outcome
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update pg. 9, 15, 20, 29
Post by: VorFemme on September 22, 2012, 06:38:38 PM
And Louise knows that Dave will stand up for his sister to his betrothed - he is doing what is "right" even if it isn't what would make Louise happy. 

Which, if she thinks about it, is reassuring.  He is a person with ethical and moral standards who is willing to be uncomfortable in defense of those standards.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update pg. 9, 15, 20, 29
Post by: Otterpop on September 22, 2012, 10:02:54 PM
Thank you for updating us OP.  We know you are not directly privy to what's going on between the couple, so it takes awhile.  It sounds like a good outcome.  I hope for Susan's sake, her future SIL takes note of what she and her brother will and will not tolerate.  Hopefully Louise has learned her lesson.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update pg. 9, 15, 20, 29
Post by: FauxFoodist on September 22, 2012, 10:12:51 PM
I think it's a bit much to think that Dave should have immediately called of the wedding and left Louise high and dry.  I think that their relationship is more than this one incredibly stupid act of Louise's. 

While Louise did act disgracefully, I think Dave is to be commended for confronting his fiance so close to the wedding.  Remember he thought it was a dress dispute at first, when Dave was fully informed of what happened he made it perfectly clear that Susan WAS welcome to the wedding no matter what.   How many times on this forum have we seen examples where the Groom did not stand up for his family and allowed the mistreatment to continue for years.

And I think what matters is that both Dave AND Susan are happy with the outcome

Pod, especially the bolded.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: kareng57 on September 22, 2012, 10:54:20 PM
The wedding isn't until November, if I remember the OP correctly - we might not get an update on the situation until then unless the wedding gets called off.

Also, if I was Susan's brother, I'd have changed her role in the wedding from being one of the bride's attendants to being one of the groom's attendants.  I feel like assigning the bride/groom attendant roles based on gender rather than which half of the couple you're closest to is a little outdated...


I don't think that the tradition is necessarily "outdated".  Lots of people still do it and everyone involved is happy with it.

And in this case, I don't think it would make a lot of difference.  Louise might have easily still been trying to dictate Susan's attire even if she was her brother's attendant.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: sammycat on September 23, 2012, 01:15:04 AM
since Susan has two young children to keep track of, it would be easier for her not to be in the wedding party.  This is what Susan plans to tell anyone who asks, as Susan told Louise she would keep this "disgraceful incident*" between them.

Whilst I agree with other posters that Susan appears to be a class act, I honestly don't support her in letting Louise get away with her utterly disgusting behaviour. 

If I was in Susan's position, I would be honest with the reason I was no longer part of the wedding party.  I wouldn't go around initiating conversations on the topic, but I would give an honest answer in as factual/unemotional way as possible if I was directly asked for the reason.

People like Louise get away with this sort of thing because nice people like Susan let them get away with it.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9, 15, 20
Post by: LifeOnPluto on September 23, 2012, 02:12:16 AM
since Susan has two young children to keep track of, it would be easier for her not to be in the wedding party.  This is what Susan plans to tell anyone who asks, as Susan told Louise she would keep this "disgraceful incident*" between them.

Whilst I agree with other posters that Susan appears to be a class act, I honestly don't support her in letting Louise get away with her utterly disgusting behaviour. 

If I was in Susan's position, I would be honest with the reason I was no longer part of the wedding party.  I wouldn't go around initiating conversations on the topic, but I would give an honest answer in as factual/unemotional way as possible if I was directly asked for the reason.

People like Louise get away with this sort of thing because nice people like Susan let them get away with it.

I have to agree with Sammycat. I think Susan is being far too nice for her own good.

The only way I can see this as a "good outcome" is if this whole incident was VERY out-of-character for Louise. I sincerely hope that Susan is right in giving Louise the benefit of the doubt. I sincerely hope that this was just a completely stupid and random lapse of judgement in an otherwise decent person. 
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update pg. 9, 15, 20, 29
Post by: Lauren on September 23, 2012, 06:21:32 AM
Quote
If I was in Susan's position, I would be honest with the reason I was no longer part of the wedding party.  I wouldn't go around initiating conversations on the topic, but I would give an honest answer in as factual/unemotional way as possible if I was directly asked for the reason.

What would that achieve? Possible make Susan feel better about the whole situation. It will upset Susan's sick mother and potentially ruin her relationship with her brother. Now if Susan decided to cut both her brother and Louise out of her life I would understand that, but she has chosen not to. She is the epitome of class act. When this happened, she acted perfectly, let her brother know the full story and her brother acted well. Louise acted horrifically and has been very privately called on it. It could be a once off, it might not be. But Susan has the right not to choose to ruin family relationships over what could be one incident.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update pg. 9, 15, 20, 29
Post by: Queen of Clubs on September 23, 2012, 07:04:17 AM
I'm glad Dave stepped up and sorted things out.  I hope (for his sake and for Susan's) that this is an aberration on Louise's behalf and that she's either not like this usually, or has more sense than to ever try something like this again.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update pg. 9, 15, 20, 29
Post by: PeterM on September 23, 2012, 01:26:52 PM
Quote
If I was in Susan's position, I would be honest with the reason I was no longer part of the wedding party.  I wouldn't go around initiating conversations on the topic, but I would give an honest answer in as factual/unemotional way as possible if I was directly asked for the reason.

What would that achieve? Possible make Susan feel better about the whole situation. It will upset Susan's sick mother and potentially ruin her relationship with her brother. Now if Susan decided to cut both her brother and Louise out of her life I would understand that, but she has chosen not to. She is the epitome of class act. When this happened, she acted perfectly, let her brother know the full story and her brother acted well. Louise acted horrifically and has been very privately called on it. It could be a once off, it might not be. But Susan has the right not to choose to ruin family relationships over what could be one incident.

I agree. I don't see this as Susan backing down, but as taking the high road. This is her brother's wedding, and she's doing what she can to not disrupt it. She'd be well within her rights to take a stand and make the truth known, but the collateral damage would be high because this is a huge family event. I like her reasoning that everyone is entitled to a second chance after an incident of monumental stupidity, and I think this particular situation is the perfect time to invoke that idea.

That said, if Louise ever does anything like this again, Susan should come down on her like the wrath of an angry god. This is basically just "Not in front of the children" mixed with "First one's free, next one will cost you." Hopefully Louise isn't really the sort of person this incident makes her out to be. If she is that sort of person, hopefully she's smart enough to know she got off very easy this time and will never go over the line again. If she's not smart enough for that, then Susan can let her have it with both barrels when that occurs. Turning the other cheek to this incident might resolve the problem entirely, or it might just kick it down the road, but Susan has apparently decided it's worth a try, and I agree.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update pg. 9, 15, 20, 29
Post by: Yankeegal77 on September 23, 2012, 01:49:42 PM
Quote
If I was in Susan's position, I would be honest with the reason I was no longer part of the wedding party.  I wouldn't go around initiating conversations on the topic, but I would give an honest answer in as factual/unemotional way as possible if I was directly asked for the reason.

What would that achieve? Possible make Susan feel better about the whole situation. It will upset Susan's sick mother and potentially ruin her relationship with her brother. Now if Susan decided to cut both her brother and Louise out of her life I would understand that, but she has chosen not to. She is the epitome of class act. When this happened, she acted perfectly, let her brother know the full story and her brother acted well. Louise acted horrifically and has been very privately called on it. It could be a once off, it might not be. But Susan has the right not to choose to ruin family relationships over what could be one incident.

I agree. I don't see this as Susan backing down, but as taking the high road. This is her brother's wedding, and she's doing what she can to not disrupt it. She'd be well within her rights to take a stand and make the truth known, but the collateral damage would be high because this is a huge family event. I like her reasoning that everyone is entitled to a second chance after an incident of monumental stupidity, and I think this particular situation is the perfect time to invoke that idea.

That said, if Louise ever does anything like this again, Susan should come down on her like the wrath of an angry god. This is basically just "Not in front of the children" mixed with "First one's free, next one will cost you." Hopefully Louise isn't really the sort of person this incident makes her out to be. If she is that sort of person, hopefully she's smart enough to know she got off very easy this time and will never go over the line again. If she's not smart enough for that, then Susan can let her have it with both barrels when that occurs. Turning the other cheek to this incident might resolve the problem entirely, or it might just kick it down the road, but Susan has apparently decided it's worth a try, and I agree.

Have to agree with the above after thinking about this a bit.

It really depends on family dynamics and it sounds like for her particular situation, at least for now, Susan is doing what is best. Standing up for herself is so very important and hopefully, Louise will think twice before exhibiting such horrendously rude, thoughtless behavior again. Susan really is taking the high road and sending the message that she'll forgive, but not forget. And I suspect that Dave is taking the same approach--perhaps Louise has other redeeming qualities and hopefully, this is just an aberration on her part. Hopefully.

But if it happens again...E-Hell should hath no fury like a sister twice insulted.


Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update pg. 9, 15, 20, 29
Post by: Twik on September 23, 2012, 03:20:57 PM
I agree that Susan should not try to protect Louisa from her own bad behaviour. While this may appear to be the "high road", it's giving people a distorted idea of who Louisa is. If Louisa does not believe her behaviour is atrocious, there's no harm in telling people exactly what she did, right? Not necessarily, "Louisa is a female dog who kicked me out," but "Louisa decided that I didn't fit in with the look she was going for, and I agreed to step down." Then, hopefully, Louisa's friends and relatives will help Louisa understand why this was not appropriate. Otherwise, she will continue to believe that she acted correctly.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update pg. 9, 15, 20, 29
Post by: wolfie on September 23, 2012, 05:25:17 PM
I agree that Susan should not try to protect Louisa from her own bad behaviour. While this may appear to be the "high road", it's giving people a distorted idea of who Louisa is. If Louisa does not believe her behaviour is atrocious, there's no harm in telling people exactly what she did, right? Not necessarily, "Louisa is a female dog who kicked me out," but "Louisa decided that I didn't fit in with the look she was going for, and I agreed to step down." Then, hopefully, Louisa's friends and relatives will help Louisa understand why this was not appropriate. Otherwise, she will continue to believe that she acted correctly.

That is presuming that Louise had not already seen the error of her ways by having her fiance talk to her about it. For all we know she is deeply upset about her own behavior and wishes the ground would swallow her up every time she even thinks about it. I know that in situations where I did something wrong and was upset at myself for it having people harping on me about it didn't help at all. Unless the point is to make Louise withdraw from the family because she feels they will never accept her now?
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update pg. 9, 15, 20, 29
Post by: Cleargleam on September 23, 2012, 07:00:44 PM
I agree that Susan should not try to protect Louisa from her own bad behaviour. While this may appear to be the "high road", it's giving people a distorted idea of who Louisa is. If Louisa does not believe her behaviour is atrocious, there's no harm in telling people exactly what she did, right? Not necessarily, "Louisa is a female dog who kicked me out," but "Louisa decided that I didn't fit in with the look she was going for, and I agreed to step down." Then, hopefully, Louisa's friends and relatives will help Louisa understand why this was not appropriate. Otherwise, she will continue to believe that she acted correctly.

That is presuming that Louise had not already seen the error of her ways by having her fiance talk to her about it. For all we know she is deeply upset about her own behavior and wishes the ground would swallow her up every time she even thinks about it. I know that in situations where I did something wrong and was upset at myself for it having people harping on me about it didn't help at all. Unless the point is to make Louise withdraw from the family because she feels they will never accept her now?

If Louise actually had grown that way, surely she would have asked Susan to be in the wedding party, and apologized for her appallingly heinous behavior? In the proper, matching, dress, without trying to draw attention to Susan's disability by demanding a frumpy, mismatched dress and requiring that Susan wear her prosthetic?

Not that Susan would necessarily accept at this point, and I would not blame her if she did not. Louise not only burned any bridges but cut away the banks of the river.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update pg. 9, 15, 20, 29
Post by: SiotehCat on September 23, 2012, 07:14:03 PM
Ive been following the thread, but its been long, so I can't remember if this has been brought up.

Is it possible that Louise has issues with Susan that have nothing to do with the arm, and she just decided to use that as an excuse?

Maybe Dave knows more about how Louise feels then he is letting on?

I find it hard to believe that Louise had feelings about something and didn't confide in Dave first.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update pg. 9, 15, 20, 29
Post by: Auntie Mame on September 23, 2012, 07:17:24 PM
I will say this again.  Your friend Susan has the class of Tim Gunn and the Grace of Jackie O.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update pg. 9, 15, 20, 29
Post by: Dr. F. on September 23, 2012, 07:24:20 PM
I will say this again.  Your friend Susan has the class of Tim Gunn and the Grace of Jackie O.

As usual, I agree totally with Auntie.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update pg. 9, 15, 20, 29
Post by: wolfie on September 23, 2012, 08:10:34 PM
I agree that Susan should not try to protect Louisa from her own bad behaviour. While this may appear to be the "high road", it's giving people a distorted idea of who Louisa is. If Louisa does not believe her behaviour is atrocious, there's no harm in telling people exactly what she did, right? Not necessarily, "Louisa is a female dog who kicked me out," but "Louisa decided that I didn't fit in with the look she was going for, and I agreed to step down." Then, hopefully, Louisa's friends and relatives will help Louisa understand why this was not appropriate. Otherwise, she will continue to believe that she acted correctly.

That is presuming that Louise had not already seen the error of her ways by having her fiance talk to her about it. For all we know she is deeply upset about her own behavior and wishes the ground would swallow her up every time she even thinks about it. I know that in situations where I did something wrong and was upset at myself for it having people harping on me about it didn't help at all. Unless the point is to make Louise withdraw from the family because she feels they will never accept her now?

If Louise actually had grown that way, surely she would have asked Susan to be in the wedding party, and apologized for her appallingly heinous behavior? In the proper, matching, dress, without trying to draw attention to Susan's disability by demanding a frumpy, mismatched dress and requiring that Susan wear her prosthetic?

Not that Susan would necessarily accept at this point, and I would not blame her if she did not. Louise not only burned any bridges but cut away the banks of the river.

Not necessarily - they might have decided it was best if Susan wasn't in the wedding party. We also don't know that she didn't apologize.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update pg. 9, 15, 20, 29
Post by: Danika on September 23, 2012, 09:49:36 PM
Is it possible that Louise has issues with Susan that have nothing to do with the arm, and she just decided to use that as an excuse?

 ;) Yep, I threw this suggestion out meekly a few times. I still believe it is likely.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update pg. 9, 15, 20, 29
Post by: PeterM on September 23, 2012, 10:49:12 PM
Is it possible that Louise has issues with Susan that have nothing to do with the arm, and she just decided to use that as an excuse?

 ;) Yep, I threw this suggestion out meekly a few times. I still believe it is likely.

If this is the case, though, it makes Louise out to be even stupider than I already thought. If she has issues with Susan, said issues may or may not be legitimate or fair, and may or may not appear legitimate/fair to outsiders. By instead pretending that the issue is about Susan's arm, Louise has absolutely guaranteed that literally everyone who hears about the falling out will both take Susan's side and think Louise is a scumbag. I just don't see it as a useful strategy.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update pg. 9, 15, 20, 29
Post by: lowspark on September 24, 2012, 08:03:10 AM
If I were Susan, I'd make sure to wear some kind of sleeveless dress to the wedding.  >:D
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update pg. 9, 15, 20, 29
Post by: Cleargleam on September 24, 2012, 10:40:30 AM
If I were Susan, I'd make sure to wear some kind of sleeveless dress to the wedding.  >:D

Wishing there were a like button. :) 
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update pg. 9, 15, 20, 29
Post by: TurtleDove on September 24, 2012, 11:00:37 AM
Louise not only burned any bridges but cut away the banks of the river.

According to Susan, this is not true.  I don't think Susan has anything to gain from actively shunning Louise, even though she has been wronged.  If she wants a relationship with her brother, it is in her best interest to take the high road.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update pg. 9, 15, 20, 29
Post by: HonorH on September 24, 2012, 03:11:54 PM
Louise not only burned any bridges but cut away the banks of the river.

According to Susan, this is not true.  I don't think Susan has anything to gain from actively shunning Louise, even though she has been wronged.  If she wants a relationship with her brother, it is in her best interest to take the high road.

That's my feeling on this. Yes, Susan could totally trash Louise's reputation in the family with only a few words, all of them true and even polite. But what would she gain from doing so? Louise wouldn't "get away with" her ill-thought-out stunt, no, but there'd be no hope for reconciliation, and it would affect her relationship with her brother. By taking the high road, she's leaving the door open. Hopefully, Louise has learned from this incident, and they can build on that.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update pg. 9, 15, 20, 29
Post by: Snooks on November 10, 2012, 11:08:13 AM
OP is there any update to this?
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update pg. 9, 15, 20, 29
Post by: asb8 on November 10, 2012, 09:10:39 PM
The wedding went off without a hitch.  Susan and Louise are (to quote a favorite author of mine), polite in public and don't communicate in private. 

Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update pg. 9, 15, 20, 29
Post by: Winterlight on November 10, 2012, 10:07:23 PM
That seems like the best solution. Glad things went smoothly for Susan's sake.
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update pg. 9, 15, 20, 29
Post by: Luci on November 10, 2012, 10:47:04 PM
That seems like the best solution. Glad things went smoothly for Susan's sake.

For everyone's sake, especially Susan's. Hope the guests didn't know how awkward it could have been!

Thanks for the update. (And thanks for asking, Snooks.)
Title: Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update pg. 9, 15, 20, 29
Post by: Snooks on November 11, 2012, 08:33:10 AM
Thanks for the update, glad to hear things ended up civil in the end.  I take it Susan was not a bridesmaid?