Etiquette Hell

General Etiquette => Family and Children => Topic started by: The Lunchlady on September 27, 2012, 10:15:11 PM

Title: CrudeBoy and My Things
Post by: The Lunchlady on September 27, 2012, 10:15:11 PM
Dear Forum,

I need your collective wisdom regarding an issue my twin 11 year old girls are having at school. We are new to a small town, and this is their first year at this school. I have already spoke to both of their teachers and I left the meeting feeling that the matter would be resolved.

Today, after school I was called in for a meeting and was told that at least one of my kids seem to be the problem.  The teacher has dismissed the entire incident as puberty, and I fear has marked me as That Parent..  I know my kids are not perfect; here at home they fight tooth and nail one minute and are best friends the next. I have never seen or heard tell of them acting that way in public, or had reports from past teachers that they were a problem.

The incidents have caused problems here at home, and have interfered with Thing1s schoolwork. Im starting to wonder if Im making a mountain out of a mole hill, or if I should pursue the issue. I wrote the following, and would appreciate any thoughts on whether I should send it to both teachers, or the principal, or just file it away in case CrudeBoy escalates his creepiness.

I apologize in advance for the length, and will clarify as needed.

Cast of Characters:

Thing1 and Thing2 T1 & T2 my twins
QueenWannaBee QWB friend(?) of T2
CrudeBoy CB Boy in T1s class whos latched onto her

OneGirl
OtherGirl       The Generic Girls
AnotherGirl

Names, of course, have been changed.


Dear Mrs. Teacher:

I spoke with Thing2 and Thing1 about the situation on the playground today, and this is what I was told when I questioned each girl, in the others presence for verification:

Yesterday Wednesday, 26th of September, Thing1 was really happy with the group of QueenWannaBee, CrudeBoy, Thing2 and herself. At that days lunch, with QueenWannaBee, CrudeBoy, Thing1 and Thing2 at the lunch table, QWB said that Thing2 said she [Thing2] wanted Thing1 kicked out of the group. Thing1 got mad, picked up her lunch and went to a different table by herself. Right away OneGirl, OtherGirl and AnotherGirl came over and asked Thing1 what was wrong. T1 told them that QueenWannaBee said Thing2 said she [Thing2] wanted Thing1 out of the group for no reason. OneGirl said QWB is just really bossy, and that she [QWB] secretly hates you [Thing1].

As soon as T1 left the table T2 told QWB that she never said that. CrudeBoy then said that Thing2 made up a joke about Thing1 liking CrudeBoy. Thing2 denies doing so.

Later on the 26th, Thing1 and one of the three GenericGirls were playing on the playground. QWB and CrudeBoy wanted to talk to her. They told Thing1 that they really miss her and want her back in the group. So T1 was back in the group.

Today, Thursday, September 27, 2012, T1 ate lunch with the three GenericGirls. T2 ate with QWB and CrudeBoy. There were no issues and nothing said at lunch for either girl. At recess, T1 played with QWB, CB and T2. T2 then went in the building for class, and QWB and CB apologized to T1 for playing a mean joke on her the day before.

During Art, CB told T1 that he returned T2s pom-pom pen to her that had gone missing from her back- pack the first week of school. T2 did not receive a pen from CB.

My Personal Experience and Views:

These are not the first instances Ive heard of CB fabricating a story about my children; on the field trip, CB told me that T1 said T2 said that I [LunchLady] told T2 that CB bothers me. The only truth to that is that I was bothered on the trip, with his incessant chatter, vulgarisms, and requests to carry his personal belongings; his lagging and keeping T1 back, preventing her from enjoying the full experience. At the time I did not express my irritation to my children, or anyone else at the school. I am also bothered that he showed up un-invited to our home the week previous to the field trip.

There are too many she said/she saids and she said/you saids, none of which originate with T1 and T2. It appears that QWB and CB, either alone or in conjunction enjoy stirring up trouble between T2 and T1. Why this may be is not for me to say, but it is my husbands and my wish, as we previously discussed, that T1 and T2 stay away from CrudeBoy. If QueenWannaBee is CrudeBoys confederate, we would have to advise our girls to stay away from her as well, and it will be explained to the Things why people who behave in the above manner are not friends that should be cultivated.

Best Regards,

The LunchLady
Title: Re: CreepyBoy and My Things
Post by: tiff019 on September 27, 2012, 10:24:31 PM
Personally, I'd leave out the long descriptions of the 'he said, she said' drama going on and focus on what you said in your personal experiences. To me the narrative comes off as just one more layer of he said/she said - this time including you. The second half though is good - it's not the first time  you've heard of fabrication of stories, the two kids stirring up trouble between your girls, etc. Those are the real issues at hand and explaining them this way avoids emotion clouding the issue somewhat.

You may also consider having a chat with your girls to avoid these characters, and if that doesn't work then move on to the teacher intervention. At 11 it's time to begin teaching them to handle their battles, but they definitely still need the safety net of parent/teacher intervention if avoidance isn't working.
Title: Re: CreepyBoy and My Things
Post by: WillyNilly on September 27, 2012, 10:24:50 PM
I'm not a parent or a teacher, but my advice would be to just personal file that letter and definitely not send it to the school.

In the meantime I think you need to advise your girls on A) staying away from CB on their own and B) discuss appropriate ways to express anger/hurt/embarrassment (not sure what your kid did to get in trouble, but I'm assuming it was a result of the story you just related).

Beyond that, you need to let your kids navigate through the social jungle that is school.
Title: Re: CreepyBoy and My Things
Post by: NyaChan on September 27, 2012, 10:26:52 PM
Honestly, I think you should talk with your own girls if you do anything at all - staying out of it may be the better course of action really, other ehellions might be able to speak to that.  The boy and the other girls seem fairly normal for school at this age - there will always be kids like that. 

What I find troublesome is that your daughters don't stick up for each other and value the friendship of these two kids who don't treat either of them well.  Maybe a talk about how it is good to support each other might help or perhaps you could try pointing out that these "friends" aren't as nice as they may seem if they turn if they turn on the twins so easily.  I also think that the twin who has other "generic" girls to hang out with might want to consider making good friends with them rather than using them as backup for when she falls out of favor with the mean kids.
Title: Re: CreepyBoy and My Things
Post by: The Lunchlady on September 27, 2012, 11:08:41 PM
What I find troublesome is that your daughters don't stick up for each other and value the friendship of these two kids who don't treat either of them well.  Maybe a talk about how it is good to support each other might help or perhaps you could try pointing out that these "friends" aren't as nice as they may seem if they turn if they turn on the twins so easily.  I also think that the twin who has other "generic" girls to hang out with might want to consider making good friends with them rather than using them as backup for when she falls out of favor with the mean kids.

NyaChan, the lack of support is distressing, and it goes back to the first day of school. We encountered CreepyBoy on the playground before we knew he was CreepyBoy. I pushed all three of them on the merry go round but had to stop and tell the girls it was time to go when CB started kicking T2 on the rear. While T2 steers clear of him, T1 has a harder time due to being in the same classroom. He has quite the backstory which I think contributes to his behaviors and has socially marginalized him. I think T1 feels sorry for him, but she needs to realize that her loyalty should lie with her sister. 

T2 would love to hang out with the Generics but I think she's a little intimidated due to their popular girl status.

One thing I realize in writing about the situation is that if either one of my kids is a provocateur, it would be T1, due to her letting the others prevaricate and not standing up for her sister, not T2, as the teacher believes. T2 received a detention last week due to more of the same nonsense.
Title: Re: CreepyBoy and My Things
Post by: Elizabeth on September 27, 2012, 11:53:53 PM
I would not sent that letter. As I see it, QWB and CB aren't going to change - they seem to like stirring up drama. The only real solution is for your girls to stop hanging out with them. If your girls won't do that, then at the very least they need to stop believing anything that QWB and CB say. For 11 year old students, it is not up to the teacher to patrol who hags out with who, so I don't see what good the letter will do. (Unless the teacher is putting them together in group projects or something. Is that the case?)

If I were you, I'd sit Thing1 and Thing2 down and talk about what has been happening, asking them why QWB and CB might be acting the way that they were, if that was how they wanted to be treated, if they wanted to be a part of that drama, etc. Basically, I'd have a conversation with them and try to get them to see that these kids are not the best choices for friends. Encourage them to find new friends, maybe by exploring other interests. (I wouldn't try to forbid the girls from hanging out with anyone in this scenario. It's really hard for a parent to control who their kid associates with at school, and will turn the situation into a more contentious one rather than a learning opportunity.) Then, if Thing1 and 2 continue to hang with these kids and have problems, you can ask them why they're still hanging out with kids that treat them that way. Hopefully they'll catch on sooner or later.

Take all of this with a big grain of salt, as I'm expecting my first child so I have no experience - unless you count my own experience when I was 11!

I do have to say, I found this strange:

...One thing I realize in writing about the situation is that if either one of my kids is a provocateur, it would be T1, due to her letting the others prevaricate and not standing up for her sister, not T2, as the teacher believes. T2 received a detention last week due to more of the same nonsense.

The teacher gave T2 detention because of some sort of playground tiff? That seems way off to me. I can't imagine a teacher doing that, even for younger kids. If kids were talking/arguing/etc in class I could see giving a detention because of the disruption, but not because of the argument itself. I'm not doubting you, but I'm confused as to why the teacher would get involved. If you're similarly confused, it could be worth asking the teacher for clarification of what she considers to fall under her purview so that you know what to bring to her attention and what to handle at home. If the teacher really thinks it's her place to get in the middle of an argument between kids and punish who she sees as being in the wrong, maybe it would be appropriate to update the teacher on the situation... though I still tend to say leave her out of it. Even if she thinks it's her place to get in the middle of unpleasantness between kids, I don't and wouldn't want to encourage her to insert herself. 
Title: Re: CreepyBoy and My Things
Post by: Ceallach on September 28, 2012, 12:07:46 AM
I wouldn't send that email.   Keep it as a personal record, but don't send it.   Honestly, it comes across really high school, all the "he said, she said" and intricate details of who was sitting with whom or speaking with whom.   A lot of that is typical high school drama and I'm not sure what specifically you want the school to do about it.   For example, where you say you are upset about CB showing up at your house - what has that got to do with the school?  I honestly think you're venting in that email and that there is nothing to be gained by sending it the school.  I do think it will get you labelled as the trouble maker here which will not be good in the long run if you do want to make a more specific complaint.

Instead I would use the situation as a learning experience for your twins about communication, trust and respect.  CB can't cause trouble between them if they don't let him.  Same with the other girls.  If they verify information they're being told before getting upset about it.    If they refuse to be part of the silly mind games.    Learning to rise above that type of silly drama will serve them well throughout high school, I can attest to that.  My parents taught me how to handle situations maturely and deal with the nonsense that goes on without letting it affect me too deeply.  (Of course I had my own drama, all teenagers do!)   My parents also taught me to choose my friends wisely.   Like many teenagers I was attracted to the "cool kids" but soon realised some people had more substance to them than others.   It's a valuable life lesson!
Title: Re: CreepyBoy and My Things
Post by: cheyne on September 28, 2012, 12:25:49 AM
Please don't send the letter to the school.  I could hardly understand what was going on and had to read it twice.  The teacher will not take it seriously and I am afraid you will be labeled "That parent".

Your daughters are 11.  The pre-teen years can be tough ones with finding their own independence and their own way.  You can't make everything "right" for them, they must learn it on their own.  It's OK to sit and have a talk with them and find out what's going on in their lives, but you can't make them best buddies at school.  Even though they are twins they have their own personalities and will probably make separate friends.

Unless one of them is being bullied or physically harmed, I'd let them find out who they can trust and who they want to be friends with.  If CB is coming over and you don't want him at your home, you can politely tell him he is not welcome (the other ehellions can help you with phrasing).
Title: Re: CreepyBoy and My Things
Post by: BC12 on September 28, 2012, 02:21:34 AM
But what actually has happened as a result of these playground/lunchroom tiffs? Surely the teachers aren't getting involved in playground politics? Did any of the children misbehave? Were they punished unfairly? It feels like you left out the important parts of the story.

You seem very focused on trying to prove which child was the most wrong, which, in the context you've put it here, does not matter. "Who is the most wrong" doesn't solve any problems.

If one of your girls misbehaved or had an outburst, then work on that with them. If they have made friends with kids who lie and manipulate, teach them how to deal with those people. It's a great lesson to learn early, because we all know how often these types of characters reoccur all throughout our lives. But to get the school involved more than they already are seems a bit hasty, unless it really is necessary due to something you haven't shared here.

Feel free, OP, to correct me if I've misunderstood any of this.
Title: Re: CreepyBoy and My Things
Post by: Margo on September 28, 2012, 06:47:38 AM
I agree with PPs saying not to send the letter. It's very confusing, and almost all of it is (at least) second hand. It also doesn't make clear what you want the school to do.

You say that you want your girls to stay away from CB and QWB but I can't imagine that the school would be willing to interfere with who the children paly with during breaks (unless one child is bullying the others), so that seems to me like something which you need to work on with your own daughters.

If you don't want your girls placed in a group with the other 2 during lessons then you can discussthat discrete issue with their teacher, but again, I think you need to accept that unless eaither ofthe girls is being bullied the teacher needs to have the freedom to arragne her class as she sees fit - whioch may include the childrne sometimes working together.

I think if you do take it further you need to be very open with the teacher about what, specifically, you feel that the school could do which they are not currently doing, and to be open to sugegstions from the school about what you can do, both to back up the school, and to support your girls. It is likely to help your girls if they get consistent feedback from their paretns and their teachers, so if the message that you give your daughters is that T1 should speak up striaght away if words are put into her mouth, and that she shoulkd be honest if asked about what she has said, then I think it is reasonable to tell the school that that is the approach you are takign ans ask whether they would give the same message, if a similar incident comes to their attention. If they say no, ask them what they would recommned. After all, they deal with children all the time, and they are closer to this specific situation than you are. They may have more insight into what is actually happening.

Also talk to your daughters - how much is this actually affecting them? Obviously if it is cuasing significant problem then that needs to be addressed, but that may involve them changing their behviaour, including lookingat how they interact with others. It sounds as though a lot of the problem you describe could only happen because T1 didn't immediately speak up and say "that's not true. I didn't say that" And that's an issue which you can address with T1.



Title: Re: CreepyBoy and My Things
Post by: JenJay on September 28, 2012, 07:34:50 AM
The other kids may be stinkers, but your kids are choosing to hang out with them and, therefore, getting caught up in the mess when the group misbehaves and gets in trouble. I've had to have the "You are responsible for your own choices, including who you hang out with." talk with my kids before. It's frustrating when they make friends with "mean kids" but the best you can do is give them lots of support and encouragement to back away from that group and find another.

There have been a couple of times I've contacted a teacher because one of my kids was being bothered in class or on the bus (after my child asked the student to stop, then asked the teacher/bus driver to intervene but the other child would wait for the adult to be preoccupied elsewhere). That said, my kids also know I expect them to do what they can to stay away from said child. For example, my son was being bothered by a boy on the bus so he approached the bus driver and spoke to her. She moved the other boy. A few days later DS is asking me if I'll talk to her again because he's still being bothered. I asked him "I thought he was moved?" and DS says "He was but there's an empty seat behind him now and sometimes I don't feel like sitting with Friend so I move over there and then he messes with me." Um what? I said "Bus Driver moved him to that seat BECAUSE he bothers kids who sit behind him, which you know. If you choose to move near him that is on YOU. Bus Driver and I have helped you as much as we can." I'm still  ::) over that one. lol
Title: Re: CreepyBoy and My Things
Post by: TootsNYC on September 28, 2012, 08:25:31 AM
I think T1 feels sorry for him, but she needs to realize that her loyalty should lie with her sister. 


Or maybe T1 needs to realize that her loyalty should lie with *the person who isn't mean and doesn't tell lies,* even if they're not her sisters.

And when kids are 11, the teachers really don't have the resources or ability to "keep your kids away from other kids" on the playground and at lunch. JenJay has a really good point.
Title: Re: CreepyBoy and My Things
Post by: TurtleDove on September 28, 2012, 09:17:31 AM
Don't send the letter.  Focus your attention on teaching your kids to make good choices.  From your description, this is all on them.  For what it's worth, the portion about the "generic" backups angered me a little.  I would definitely stay out of the "small stuff" and simply work with your daughters on how to select and be good friends.  I don't see them having this skill at all from what you posted.

But most importantly, do NOT send the letter or tattle to the school -- you will almost definitely lose credibility and be labeled as a troublemaker, and it will reflect poorly on your kids.
Title: Re: CreepyBoy and My Things
Post by: Eden on September 28, 2012, 11:42:26 AM
But
Please don't send the letter to the school.  I could hardly understand what was going on and had to read it twice.  The teacher will not take it seriously and I am afraid you will be labeled "That parent".

This

But what actually has happened as a result of these playground/lunchroom tiffs? Surely the teachers aren't getting involved in playground politics? Did any of the children misbehave? Were they punished unfairly? It feels like you left out the important parts of the story.

And this.

I suggest not sending the letter at all. It mostly sounds like playground politics. But if you do, you need to scrap what you've got and write a new letter. What is your concern? What do you want from the teachers? Clear, simple, concisewhat actually has happened as a result of these playground/lunchroom tiffs? Surely the teachers aren't getting involved in playground politics? Did any of the children misbehave? Were they punished unfairly? It feels like you left out the important parts of the story.
Title: Re: CreepyBoy and My Things
Post by: violinp on September 28, 2012, 11:49:55 AM
As a twin, this stuff is normal. Middle school tends to be filled with drama, and this situation is no exception. Don't send the letter - focus on your daughters and how they behave, at school and towards each other. My sister and I were very much like your own twins, and we turned out fine - we're friends and we behave ourselves (mostly  :P).

However, this stuff also strikes a chord with me, because my sister had a close friend who did not like me one bit, and I didn't like her because she didn't like me. For years, there was a status quo of that girl putting me down, saying mean things about me (including insinuations of mental illness), and me screaming at and saying incredibly cruel things to her. Cabbage (my sister) was stuck in the middle of all of that for years, and it really stressed her out. It seems like Thing2 is in the position (somewhat) that Cabbage was in, and I think it would help a lot if you could be there for her, especially, though you really need to be talking a lot with both your daughters. Thing1 is being mocked and taunted by her sister's friends (acquaintances?), and Thing2 feels like she has to choose between a good rel@tionship with her sister and having friends.

I know this is painful to hear, but the best thing you can do is be a listening ear and give your kids good advice. You can't make this situation better for them - they have to fix this on their own, and it may take years for it to finally resolve itself (it took until senior year of high school for the situation to change in our case). But, if they work to change it on their own, they will learn the importance of proper boundaries, what it means to bea good friend, and how to deal with difficult interpersonal situations first - hand.

Advise your daughters that if CB and QWB keep bothering them, they should tell a teacher - in my experience, teachers aren't allowed to do anything until the student tells them there is a problem. Note that I said your daughters should be talking to the teachers about this - it will keep them in control of the situation.
Title: Re: CreepyBoy and My Things
Post by: Slartibartfast on September 28, 2012, 11:54:51 AM
You call him CrudeBoy in the post but CreepyBoy in the title and in your response - has he done something crude or creepy?  So far what you posted sounds like kids being kids.  Mean kids, yes, but kids.  What did the teacher do - was there detention involved, or did she just give you a heads-up?

In any case, I don't think you can address any of what you mentioned in your post.  If the teacher is doing something you don't like, you can address that with her, but only inasfar as it is affecting your daughters unfairly.
Title: Re: CreepyBoy and My Things
Post by: bopper on September 28, 2012, 12:57:23 PM
I would not send that letter.
You have talked to the teacher, so that puts them on the alert for issues between Creepyboy and your girls.

At this point unless you think there are serious issues, I would see what happens. This type of thing is sort of normal although annoying.  Ask your kids about their day and see if they talk about these kids or not.  If you hear alot about them, then perhaps talk to the guidance  counselor about it.  If you don't hear much, you ask them how those kids are doing and if they still eat with them.  If it is affecting the girls schoolwork, then talk to the teacher again about keeping them separated.
Title: Re: CreepyBoy and My Things
Post by: Zilla on September 28, 2012, 01:12:05 PM
I wouldn't send it either. 


I would instead roleplay with your girls and help them deal with all the characters in your story.  That way they can see how their action can send a confusing message.  And maybe you can help have them have more trust in each other that if they hear a "rumor" they will first give the benefit of the doubt to each other and refute that rumor.


It's unfortunate but your cast of characters are very atypical of school life nowadays.
Title: Re: CreepyBoy and My Things
Post by: lisastitch on September 28, 2012, 03:05:03 PM
Add my vote to those who say you shouldn't send the letter.

Talk to your girls about the situation, their feelings, their options, etc., and keep revisiting it.  They're growing up and need to learn to handle things.

If you do decide to talk to/email the teacher, I would ask for her input in a very general way on the situation.  Explain that your girls are having some issues with other children, and you'd like to get the teacher's impressions on what's going on.  She is (or should be) a relatively unbiased, impartial observer who has more experience than you do with what's going on socially with this age group. 
Title: Re: CreepyBoy and My Things
Post by: Deetee on September 28, 2012, 03:56:41 PM
As with everyone else I don't understand what happened or why this is a problem that should involve a teacher or parents. Why did your kids get detention? Why is the boy creepy? Almost everything important seems to be missing.

Anyhow don't send the email and focus on your kids.
Title: Re: CreepyBoy and My Things
Post by: bah12 on September 28, 2012, 04:45:26 PM
I wrote a response earlier and then had computer problems, but the gist of it was basically that this sounds like how kids that age sometimes act.  It's not right for them to act that way, but I believe that it's the parents' responsibility, not the teachers', to talk to them and help them navigate the playground social minefield.

The teachers can't be responsible to make sure that all the kids get along. But you can definitely teach your girls how to recognize behaviors that show the kids are being manipulative vs. friendly. 

This is no doubt a tough age and I'm sure that as a parent, you hate to see other kids say hurtful things.  But, this is for you to handle with your kids.  This isn't the first time they're going to run into something like this, so better to start teaching them how to handle it.
Title: Re: CreepyBoy and My Things
Post by: DavidH on September 28, 2012, 05:20:21 PM
I strongly suggest you don't send that letter, since it would likely get you labeled as that parent or worse.  I see a couple of problems; it comes across as reporting gossipy nonsense and elevating to an inappropriate level.  In addition, you girls come out looking like part of the problem.  For example, the entire first lunch table incident could have been solved in a number of ways, T2 could have spoken up initially and denied saying she wanted T1 out of the group. Alternatively T1 could have put T2 on the spot on asked her if she really said that.  T1 could also have told QB not to lie, that she knows T2 would never say that.
Title: Re: CreepyBoy and My Things
Post by: The Lunchlady on September 29, 2012, 12:08:24 AM
The teacher gave T2 detention because of some sort of playground tiff? That seems way off to me.
Actually, T2 received a detention for an incident last week when QWB put a 'kick me' note on the back of a kid she has known since kindergarten. When kid discovered the post it, QWB told T2 did it, the kid complained to the teacher. T2s protestations earned her a trouble maker label along with the detention.

My reaction to all this may be due to my own hyper vigilance to injustice, smears, liars and manipulators that I've carried over from being raised by a mentally ill parent. 

Thanks to the posters who suggested DH and I roll play. We had a great talk at dinner with the girls this evening, and it seems like the girls are beginning to understand not every one who acts friendly has friendly motives. We discussed various scenarios and outcomes from the last two weeks, and what the outcome may have been IF they trusted each other (there is no reason for them not do so). We roll played a 'trust and verify with your sibling' strategy with them.

As parents, we have never discussed these sorts of interpersonal issues with them; this sort of thing hasn't been part their experience thus far, and now they need a crash course.

You call him CrudeBoy in the post but CreepyBoy in the title and in your response - has he done something crude or creepy? 

When I edited my version for public viewing, I was undecided on what to name the boy. Both were in my head, as I have never encountered a child like him so up close and personal. Knowing his back story, either appellation could work. Sorry for confusing things; I should edit the title for continuity, if that's possible.

I did not and will not send the letter. I appreciate all your thoughts on why it would be a bad idea. Causing more problems for my children is the last thing I want to do. I've been away from home all day, and we've been out since after school, so I'm still catching up on this thread. Thing2 had a band program this evening, where the principal approached me there to ask how they liked their new school. I told her that they like it, not wanting to go into any details on what I discussed with the teachers. I'm sure she's already aware of the conversations, and I really do not want to be. that. parent. And I really, really do not want to get caught up in pre-teen drama-trauma-o-rama. Been there, didn't like it. Don't want to redux.

ETA: I am glad that I had both my girls help me reconstruct the events if only to sort out what exactly has been happening. I know that the only resolution lies with  DH and I giving them the tools to help them in this and future situations.
Title: Re: CreepyBoy and My Things
Post by: sammycat on September 29, 2012, 12:57:35 AM
Actually, T2 received a detention for an incident last week when QWB put a 'kick me' note on the back of a kid she has known since kindergarten. When kid discovered the post it, QWB told T2 did it, the kid complained to the teacher. T2s protestations earned her a trouble maker label along with the detention.

If you can verify 100% that your DD wasn't involved in that incident, that is something I would be addressing with the teacher.  Never in a million years would I let my child get away with a teacher punishing them for something they didn't do, or being a labelled a troublemaker (that's the worse part of it IMO).

I would also be questioning my children as to why they would be friends with someone who treated their sibling so badly.  I really can't imagine being friends with someone who was deliberately rude/mean/cruel to my sister.
Title: Re: CreepyBoy and My Things
Post by: BC12 on September 29, 2012, 01:39:53 AM
Actually, T2 received a detention for an incident last week when QWB put a 'kick me' note on the back of a kid she has known since kindergarten. When kid discovered the post it, QWB told T2 did it, the kid complained to the teacher. T2s protestations earned her a trouble maker label along with the detention.

If you can verify 100% that your DD wasn't involved in that incident, that is something I would be addressing with the teacher.  Never in a million years would I let my child get away with a teacher punishing them for something they didn't do, or being a labelled a troublemaker (that's the worse part of it IMO).

It doesn't sound like anyone was actually labeled a troublemaker, because the teacher "dismissed the entire incident as puberty."

OP, I'm glad you decided against sending that letter. I think it would be best to drop it this time. If problems continue, then you can deal with them as they come. But T2's wrongful detention will hopefully be a good lesson in "Life's not fair sometimes." And "If you lie down with dogs, you'll get fleas." I personally would not forbid them from being friends with the boy or the girl, but I would be sure that they understood that if they continue to associate with these kids, they are putting themselves in the position to be wrongfully accused of things that will get them into trouble. Help them realize that the girl did something very wrong and hurtful by making up lies.

I wish I had been taught how to better handle kids like this when I was young. I allowed people to wrong me and I never stood up for myself. Example: (And this is a little embarrassing to admit, now.) In high school tennis class, a boy who I was "friends" with took my tennis racket and very purposefully destroyed it. Right in front of my eyes as we were sitting and talking in a group of friends. I said and did absolutely nothing about it. It was like I didn't even know I could have said something about it. It didn't really even occur to me, and if it had, I wouldn't have had the words to convey "Hey, stop doing that." I wasn't really even a timid kid or anything, I just had no idea how to stand up for myself.

And now that I think back on it, I say to myself, "Why on earth were you friends with that kid?" I bet your daughters will one day also think, "Why on earth did I keep being friends with that kid who made up lies about me and got me into trouble?" Please help them figure this out sooner rather than later.
Title: Re: CreepyBoy and My Things
Post by: violinp on September 29, 2012, 01:42:26 AM
Actually, T2 received a detention for an incident last week when QWB put a 'kick me' note on the back of a kid she has known since kindergarten. When kid discovered the post it, QWB told T2 did it, the kid complained to the teacher. T2s protestations earned her a trouble maker label along with the detention.

If you can verify 100% that your DD wasn't involved in that incident, that is something I would be addressing with the teacher.  Never in a million years would I let my child get away with a teacher punishing them for something they didn't do, or being a labelled a troublemaker (that's the worse part of it IMO).

I would also be questioning my children as to why they would be friends with someone who treated their sibling so badly.  I really can't imagine being friends with someone who was deliberately rude/mean/cruel to my sister.


Because they're scared they won't have any friends if they do. They're scared that that's the best they can do. I know it's not a pretty answer, but that's the answer kids that age give. They value being accepted by their peers, sometimes to the detriment of their familial rel@tionships.
Title: Re: CreepyBoy and My Things
Post by: LeveeWoman on September 29, 2012, 07:13:47 AM
Actually, T2 received a detention for an incident last week when QWB put a 'kick me' note on the back of a kid she has known since kindergarten. When kid discovered the post it, QWB told T2 did it, the kid complained to the teacher. T2s protestations earned her a trouble maker label along with the detention.

If you can verify 100% that your DD wasn't involved in that incident, that is something I would be addressing with the teacher.  Never in a million years would I let my child get away with a teacher punishing them for something they didn't do, or being a labelled a troublemaker (that's the worse part of it IMO).

I would also be questioning my children as to why they would be friends with someone who treated their sibling so badly.  I really can't imagine being friends with someone who was deliberately rude/mean/cruel to my sister.

Same here. My son got detention a few times in elementary school but they were all based on his penchant for being the class-clown and he earned each and every one. Each time he was ordered to detention (which involved sitting at a desk an empty room in the office), the principal called me and explained the situation.

If the situation had involved what might be a lying bully, I would have stepped in by having a sit-down discussion with the principal.
Title: Re: CrudeBoy and My Things
Post by: JenJay on September 29, 2012, 09:19:42 AM
I agree with those saying they'd address the detention issue (water under the bridge now, but if it happens again). If the teacher can't determine for sure which girl put the note on the boy then she needs to warn them both she'll be watching closely and let it go.

I think that's your "in" with your daughters. Ask them why they want to be friends with a girl who tries to turn them against each other, bullies other kids, and, when caught, blames the bullying on them. Doesn't sound like much of a friend.  :-\
Title: Re: CrudeBoy and My Things
Post by: TootsNYC on September 29, 2012, 10:13:10 AM
I agree with those saying they'd address the detention issue (water under the bridge now, but if it happens again). If the teacher can't determine for sure which girl put the note on the boy then she needs to warn them both she'll be watching closely and let it go.

I think that's your "in" with your daughters. Ask them why they want to be friends with a girl who tries to turn them against each other, bullies other kids, and, when caught, blames the bullying on them. Doesn't sound like much of a friend.  :-\

The "sitting by and letting a bully get away with a mean lie" is absolutely what anti-bullying efforts focus on. That would be a focus for me. Kids need support and training for what to do in these instances--the thread about the guy who grabs women's butts is a perfect example--your girls are learning to "not make a fuss" when something truly bad happens.

and if they are afraid they won't have friends, I think it's worth pointing out that there ARE other people (the generic girls) who will reach out to them--but won't reach out to them if they're hanging out with this unpleasant girl and unpleasant boy. So if they start to separate from these two, they'll find that the opportunities to make other, better friends will arise. But they HAVE to leave room for it.


There's a reason these two have latched on to your girls--your girls are new, and they haven't figured out by now that these two are bad news. They're learning the lessons the other kids learned long ago.
Title: Re: CrudeBoy and My Things
Post by: bonyk on September 29, 2012, 10:41:09 AM
I wouldn't worry about your daughter being "labeled" by her teacher.  I am a teacher, and it definitely takes more than an isolated incident for me to draw a conclusion about a students character.

I'm glad you didn't send the letter.  If these problems persist in the future, and you feel like you need to send a letter, focus on what you want the teacher to do, not all of the back story.  A simple, "I don't like the way DD, QWB, and Creepy act together.  I have asked her to stay away from them, and I would appreciate if you could keep this in mind for seating arrangements, especially at lunch.  Thanks!," tells the teacher exactly how to help you.
Title: Re: CreepyBoy and My Things
Post by: The Lunchlady on September 29, 2012, 10:04:05 PM
Because they're scared they won't have any friends if they do. They're scared that that's the best they can do. I know it's not a pretty answer, but that's the answer kids that age give. They value being accepted by their peers, sometimes to the detriment of their familial rel@tionships.
Exactly. They have always preferred each other's company to poor company up until our move. I think part of this situation may well be their age and a feeling of greater security  and a quest for more independence from each other in our new area. They are developing different interests, which DH and I encourage, and the friend thing is a natural outgrowth of that.

if they are afraid they won't have friends, I think it's worth pointing out that there ARE other people (the generic girls) who will reach out to them--but won't reach out to them if they're hanging out with this unpleasant girl and unpleasant boy. So if they start to separate from these two, they'll find that the opportunities to make other, better friends will arise. But they HAVE to leave room for it.There's a reason these two have latched on to your girls--your girls are new, and they haven't figured out by now that these two are bad news. They're learning the lessons the other kids learned long ago.
Indeed, Toots. Indeed.  ;)


Same here. My son got detention a few times in elementary school but they were all based on his penchant for being the class-clown and he earned each and every one. Each time he was ordered to detention (which involved sitting at a desk an empty room in the office), the principal called me and explained the situation.

When T1 was in 2nd grade, I had to go to school to ask the teacher why she was never bringing home her homework. The teacher didn't know, and was sorry she hadn't notified me earlier about the deficit. I asked if I could clean out her desk and was shocked to find a wadded up mess of incomplete or not started assignments. That night, T1 dug her heels in and refused to complete them at home, but she was surprised to see me the next day at the time of her favorite special (with the principal's and teacher's permission). We sat in a guidance office, and after the tears stopped she began to work. She saw I was serious about the work and had the backing of the principal and guidance; she knew she would never have art class until she had an attitude change. After that, she worked every evening for a week to knock out the inch and a half stack of assignments. Now, she is a regular taskmaster. T2 has been sloughing off the last few weeks, and I've threatened the same for her!

So far, we've had a great weekend with the girls getting along as BFFs, interested in and supportive of each other's activities. I love seeing them, heads together giggling, sharing jokes and happy talk. DH and I will have some more roll playing and a discussion about boundaries this weekend. I will also relate to them as appropriate all the excellent advice everyone has given. I know it's helped me, and I can't wait to let DH in on it.