Etiquette Hell

General Etiquette => Family and Children => Topic started by: snowdragon on October 06, 2012, 08:49:15 PM

Title: older kids shoving younger ones.
Post by: snowdragon on October 06, 2012, 08:49:15 PM
  My family and I went to an aquarium that we are members of for a behind the scenes tour that comes with my membership. The entitlement of some of the folks around me was crazy and at one point prompted me to to tell a kid to knock off shoving.
   Here's what happened. My 7 year old niece and another boy were kneeling at a tank window trying to be considerate and not blocking the view for folks from behind.  When a much older child decided her being there was unacceptable. She shoved her so hard she fell into the corner of the tank and was crying. I told kid that he had hurt her, and he replied with a surly "So, I wanted to be there, she should have moved when I told her to." His mother came over to see why I was speaking to her kid and I told her that he had shoved and hurt Niece. Mother could not have cared less. Then the younger brother of Pusherboy decided he wanted in, and Pusherboy shoved her again, My sister ( Niece's mom got her out of there and went to talk to staff) and I asked Nephew if he was ok. Hearing this Pusherboy said "if he is, he won't be for long." At which point I told him he Would.Not.Shove.Nephew, or any other child again. And myself and a father put ourselves very close to our respective kids.
 After the shark feeding the kid who was shoving, was laughing to his buddy about Niece crying being "cool" and I asked him how old he was. He refused to tell me but his buddy who did not shove his way in and looked sick at the mention of Niece crying said "He's 14"  at which point I asked him why he was getting so much fun out of picking on little kids.  He had no answer for me.

   I guess, I could have handled it better but I am a loss as to how. 

Niece was ok, and when we went on the tour, she forgot all about it when we got to have an encounter with the penguins.
Title: Re: older kids shoving younger ones.
Post by: Sharnita on October 06, 2012, 08:52:44 PM
I might have told him he was not too young to be charged with assault
Title: Re: older kids shoving younger ones.
Post by: Acadianna on October 06, 2012, 09:07:46 PM
What appalling behavior.  By not dealing with it, his mother has expertly taught him that it's ok to do whatever it takes to get what he wants.

The older boy should have been removed from the tour by the management.
Title: Re: older kids shoving younger ones.
Post by: Sharnita on October 06, 2012, 09:12:02 PM
It wouldn't surprise me if mom suggested that he push his way in to begin with.
Title: Re: older kids shoving younger ones.
Post by: Amava on October 06, 2012, 09:14:12 PM
I think you handled that just fine. What did the staff have to say?
Title: Re: older kids shoving younger ones.
Post by: snowdragon on October 06, 2012, 09:18:40 PM
The boy was not on the tour, sorry I did not make that clear. Our membership carries with it the perk of a private behind the scenes tour. This happened when we were watching the shark feeding just before our tour was to begin.
 

The staff was unamused, but since they did not see it all they could do was post every single staff member on duty on the floor.  The only staff member not watching out for problems - was the one giving us our tour.
Title: Re: older kids shoving younger ones.
Post by: LeveeWoman on October 06, 2012, 09:20:27 PM
It wouldn't surprise me if mom suggested that he push his way in to begin with.

Neither would I.
Title: Re: older kids shoving younger ones.
Post by: Iris on October 06, 2012, 09:20:51 PM
What a revolting child. I think you handled it perfectly and I'm glad the aquarium staff responded so promptly.
Title: Re: older kids shoving younger ones.
Post by: LeveeWoman on October 06, 2012, 09:22:25 PM
The boy was not on the tour, sorry I did not make that clear. Our membership carries with it the perk of a private behind the scenes tour. This happened when we were watching the shark feeding just before our tour was to begin.
 

The staff was unamused, but since they did not see it all they could do was post every single staff member on duty on the floor.  The only staff member not watching out for problems - was the one giving us our tour.

The staff has to see someone assault a little kid before they'll remove the perp? They wouldn't take the word of two adults and the kids? That's a dangerous policy.
Title: Re: older kids shoving younger ones.
Post by: O'Dell on October 06, 2012, 09:45:02 PM
He refused to tell me but his buddy who did not shove his way in and looked sick at the mention of Niece crying said "He's 14"  at which point I asked him why he was getting so much fun out of picking on little kids.  He had no answer for me.

I think you handled it really well. Now he has a peer that knows and can maybe put pressure on him. And him not answering was probably him being ashamed. Maybe between your question and his friend's reaction, he'll think before doing that sort of thing again.

I'm glad your niece didn't let it ruin her day. :)
Title: Re: older kids shoving younger ones.
Post by: kherbert05 on October 06, 2012, 10:08:09 PM
Honestly I   have in similar situations said  have you had your Now you are 10 program at school? Yes, then you know I can call the cops for what you just did, they will watch the video, and then they will haul you to jail. It is kind of late and since Mom and Dad have to go before a special type of judge, you will be spending the night in jail. Then you will be found guilty because there is video. You will go to jail for a long time. BTW I'm a teacher and I've had my own students arrested for stealing from me. Followed by my scary teacher look.


The families usually take off as fast as possible. I even had the manager of a grocery store thank me after I said it to two brats that were running a grocery cart full force into elderly women that were shopping 2 of them with canes.


I don't threaten children with cops - I do threaten thugs with them. The older kids in the OP were thugs. I'm only this harsh when the actions could hurt someone.


On the flip side I have called and e-mailed multiple schools/day cares/day camps about the excellent behavior of their students at public events. (The last time I had Loren and Brett at the museum. There was a group of older kids from Victoria. Every time we were at the same exhibit - the older kids would make sure they weren't blocking Loren and Brett's view. They even helped them on some of the hands on things.) I send complements with far greater frequency.
Title: Re: older kids shoving younger ones.
Post by: SPuck on October 07, 2012, 09:15:49 AM
I think this is a situation where it is okay to make the kid "feel bad." The mother was not doing anything, and if the shoving was not caught on tape or seen by someone working at the aquarium, there is not much you can do. At least someone will get a negative reaction by stewing in their guilt.
Title: Re: older kids shoving younger ones.
Post by: bonyk on October 07, 2012, 09:30:12 AM
The only thing you could have done is demand that the staff watch the video and throw them out.  However, I'm not sure if I would have done that if Niece got over what happened.

I think what you said to the thug was fine.  I would have hard time remain that civil.
Title: Re: older kids shoving younger ones.
Post by: LeveeWoman on October 07, 2012, 11:06:55 AM
The only thing you could have done is demand that the staff watch the video and throw them out.  However, I'm not sure if I would have done that if Niece got over what happened.

I think what you said to the thug was fine.  I would have hard time remain that civil.

I don't know if I'd let this be the deciding factor in whether or not I'd put my foot down. A bully is a bully and he should face consequences for assaulting her.
Title: Re: older kids shoving younger ones.
Post by: Sharnita on October 07, 2012, 11:39:16 AM
The only thing you could have done is demand that the staff watch the video and throw them out.  However, I'm not sure if I would have done that if Niece got over what happened.

I think what you said to the thug was fine.  I would have hard time remain that civil.

I don't know if I'd let this be the deciding factor in whether or not I'd put my foot down. A bully is a bully and he should face consequences for assaulting her.

I agree.  Also, it is not alway easily apparent if a kid is "over" an incident.  Some kids hide their reaction as a coping mechanism.
Title: Re: older kids shoving younger ones.
Post by: kherbert05 on October 07, 2012, 01:13:13 PM
The only thing you could have done is demand that the staff watch the video and throw them out.  However, I'm not sure if I would have done that if Niece got over what happened.

I think what you said to the thug was fine.  I would have hard time remain that civil.

I don't know if I'd let this be the deciding factor in whether or not I'd put my foot down. A bully is a bully and he should face consequences for assaulting her.

I agree.  Also, it is not alway easily apparent if a kid is "over" an incident.  Some kids hide their reaction as a coping mechanism.
Also kids need to see adults defending them when people are harming them, so they know it is ok for them to stand up and demand justice. Letting it this type of physical abuse (because it was deliberate) go because it is easier sends the wrong message.
Title: Re: older kids shoving younger ones.
Post by: bonyk on October 07, 2012, 02:25:12 PM
The only thing you could have done is demand that the staff watch the video and throw them out.  However, I'm not sure if I would have done that if Niece got over what happened.

I think what you said to the thug was fine.  I would have hard time remain that civil.

I don't know if I'd let this be the deciding factor in whether or not I'd put my foot down. A bully is a bully and he should face consequences for assaulting her.

I agree.  Also, it is not alway easily apparent if a kid is "over" an incident.  Some kids hide their reaction as a coping mechanism.
Also kids need to see adults defending them when people are harming them, so they know it is ok for them to stand up and demand justice. Letting it this type of physical abuse (because it was deliberate) go because it is easier sends the wrong message.

I wouldn't let it go because it is easier; I'd let it go because I don't want to send her the message that she should be upset if she is not.
Title: Re: older kids shoving younger ones.
Post by: LeveeWoman on October 07, 2012, 02:36:32 PM
The only thing you could have done is demand that the staff watch the video and throw them out.  However, I'm not sure if I would have done that if Niece got over what happened.

I think what you said to the thug was fine.  I would have hard time remain that civil.

I don't know if I'd let this be the deciding factor in whether or not I'd put my foot down. A bully is a bully and he should face consequences for assaulting her.

I agree.  Also, it is not alway easily apparent if a kid is "over" an incident.  Some kids hide their reaction as a coping mechanism.
Also kids need to see adults defending them when people are harming them, so they know it is ok for them to stand up and demand justice. Letting it this type of physical abuse (because it was deliberate) go because it is easier sends the wrong message.

I wouldn't let it go because it is easier; I'd let it go because I don't want to send her the message that she should be upset if she is not.

Her being upset is not the focus for me. For me, it's stopping someone from assaulting others.
Title: Re: older kids shoving younger ones.
Post by: Klein Bottle on October 07, 2012, 03:34:42 PM
What a revolting child. I think you handled it perfectly and I'm glad the aquarium staff responded so promptly.

Right on both things.

That lack of parenting is disturbing.

Best case scenario is that the pusher kid turns out to be an entitled SS one day.  Worst case: he turns into a criminal.  That's what lack of parenting can do.  My own kid is not quite sixteen, so not much older than that brat, and if he ever thought of behaving like that, he'd have his laptop and xBox taken away so fast, his head would spin.  (Thankfully, he is lovely with little kids, and his younger cousins adore him.)
Title: Re: older kids shoving younger ones.
Post by: AngelBarchild on October 07, 2012, 05:53:21 PM
What a revolting child. I think you handled it perfectly and I'm glad the aquarium staff responded so promptly.

Right on both things.

That lack of parenting is disturbing.

Best case scenario is that the pusher kid turns out to be an entitled SS one day.  Worst case: he turns into a criminal.  That's what lack of parenting can do.  My own kid is not quite sixteen, so not much older than that brat, and if he ever thought of behaving like that, he'd have his laptop and xBox taken away so fast, his head would spin.  (Thankfully, he is lovely with little kids, and his younger cousins adore him.)

Or maybe he turns into a saint that spends all his spare time feeding the homeless, while working on a cure for cancer. This kid did one mean thing, and now his only options is to grow up as a special snowflake, or a criminal. You can not predict a person's entire future based solely on one mean act as a child.
Title: Re: older kids shoving younger ones.
Post by: LeveeWoman on October 07, 2012, 06:14:53 PM
What a revolting child. I think you handled it perfectly and I'm glad the aquarium staff responded so promptly.

Right on both things.

That lack of parenting is disturbing.

Best case scenario is that the pusher kid turns out to be an entitled SS one day.  Worst case: he turns into a criminal.  That's what lack of parenting can do.  My own kid is not quite sixteen, so not much older than that brat, and if he ever thought of behaving like that, he'd have his laptop and xBox taken away so fast, his head would spin.  (Thankfully, he is lovely with little kids, and his younger cousins adore him.)

Or maybe he turns into a saint that spends all his spare time feeding the homeless, while working on a cure for cancer. This kid did one mean thing, and now his only options is to grow up as a special snowflake, or a criminal. You can not predict a person's entire future based solely on one mean act as a child.

From the original post:

1. She shoved her so hard she fell into the corner of the tank and was crying. I told kid that he had hurt her, and 2. he replied with a surly "So, I wanted to be there, she should have moved when I told her to." His mother came over to see why I was speaking to her kid and I told her that he had shoved and hurt Niece. 3. Mother could not have cared less. Then the younger brother of Pusherboy decided he wanted in, and 4. Pusherboy shoved her again, My sister ( Niece's mom got her out of there and went to talk to staff) and I asked Nephew if he was ok. 5. Hearing this Pusherboy said "if he is, he won't be for long." At which point I told him he Would.Not.Shove.Nephew, or any other child again. And myself and a father put ourselves very close to our respective kids.

6. After the shark feeding the kid who was shoving, was laughing to his buddy about Niece crying being "cool"
Title: Re: older kids shoving younger ones.
Post by: Sharnita on October 07, 2012, 06:28:01 PM
I agree that you can't say he will be a criminal but I have had multiple kids that age who were criminals and there certainly are some troubling signs.  He pushed a child half his age into something hard, pushed her again and took pleasure from it. He threatened to push another kid. He showed no shame or fear in front of adults who clearly did not approve of his behavior.  His primary role model saw nothing wrong with what he was doing and did not correct him. His own friend's disapproval didn't phase him. He did it in the middle of a large group of people without shame or fear.

Certainly none of that guarantees a life of crime but it certain;y does not make the future of sainthood seem real promising, at least at this point.  I think we would all hope he does indeed have an epiphany but I think confronting the behavior might be instrumental in that epiphany.
Title: Re: older kids shoving younger ones.
Post by: LeveeWoman on October 07, 2012, 06:31:24 PM
I agree that you can't say he will be a criminal but I have had multiple kids that age who were criminals and there certainly are some troubling signs.  He pushed a child half his age into something hard, pushed her again and took pleasure from it. He threatened to push another kid. He showed no shame or fear in front of adults who clearly did not approve of his behavior.  His primary role model saw nothing wrong with what he was doing and did not correct him. His own friend's disapproval didn't phase him. He did it in the middle of a large group of people without shame or fear.

Certainly none of that guarantees a life of crime but it certain;y does not make the future of sainthood seem real promising, at least at this point.  I think we would all hope he does indeed have an epiphany but I think confronting the behavior might be instrumental in that epiphany.

Especially if that epiphany was helped along by the aquarium's authorities.
Title: Re: older kids shoving younger ones.
Post by: AngelBarchild on October 07, 2012, 07:08:16 PM
What a revolting child. I think you handled it perfectly and I'm glad the aquarium staff responded so promptly.

Right on both things.

That lack of parenting is disturbing.

Best case scenario is that the pusher kid turns out to be an entitled SS one day.  Worst case: he turns into a criminal.  That's what lack of parenting can do.  My own kid is not quite sixteen, so not much older than that brat, and if he ever thought of behaving like that, he'd have his laptop and xBox taken away so fast, his head would spin.  (Thankfully, he is lovely with little kids, and his younger cousins adore him.)

Or maybe he turns into a saint that spends all his spare time feeding the homeless, while working on a cure for cancer. This kid did one mean thing, and now his only options is to grow up as a special snowflake, or a criminal. You can not predict a person's entire future based solely on one mean act as a child.

From the original post:

1. She shoved her so hard she fell into the corner of the tank and was crying. I told kid that he had hurt her, and 2. he replied with a surly "So, I wanted to be there, she should have moved when I told her to." His mother came over to see why I was speaking to her kid and I told her that he had shoved and hurt Niece. 3. Mother could not have cared less. Then the younger brother of Pusherboy decided he wanted in, and 4. Pusherboy shoved her again, My sister ( Niece's mom got her out of there and went to talk to staff) and I asked Nephew if he was ok. 5. Hearing this Pusherboy said "if he is, he won't be for long." At which point I told him he Would.Not.Shove.Nephew, or any other child again. And myself and a father put ourselves very close to our respective kids.

6. After the shark feeding the kid who was shoving, was laughing to his buddy about Niece crying being "cool"

None of this predicts that he will grow up to be a criminal. My point is you can never judge how someone is going to turn out based on one incident from their child hood. My parents were crap, and I was mean to my little brother. Now I'm a 35 year old happy house wife with a child of my own, the best husband in the world, and a whole bunch of people who love me. You can't condemn a person forever, based on an one observation of bad behavior, or the fact that they have a crappy parent. Heck how many people on this forum have told us they had crappy parents, and they turned out (mostly ;) ) to be good people.

None of this excuses his bad behavior, I just don't see how you can predict someone's entire future when we are missing 99.999% of the information about them

Ten million things will happen between now and his adult hood, that will shape him into a man, in good ways and in bad. This may be one of them but we will never know.
Never disregarded a child's unique ability to grow, learn, and change.
Title: Re: older kids shoving younger ones.
Post by: Sharnita on October 07, 2012, 07:16:42 PM
I think the response to his behavior is one of the things that will happen  to him and calling him on it will help him become a good person.  Letting it slide because the child her hurt doesn't seem upset isn't actually doing him any favors. 

There is also the reality that there are a lot of kids who do irreversible, adult acts before they reach adulthood. I have known 14 year olds on tethers and I have had 14 year olds who have killed people so the idea that "becoming a criminal" is some distant potential outcome in the future might not be entirely accurate.  He is already assaulting  a strange little kid in public, threatening others, showing no fear or remorse when he is being caught - he wouldn't have to be an adult to become a criminal.
Title: Re: older kids shoving younger ones.
Post by: LeveeWoman on October 07, 2012, 07:40:52 PM
What a revolting child. I think you handled it perfectly and I'm glad the aquarium staff responded so promptly.

Right on both things.

That lack of parenting is disturbing.

Best case scenario is that the pusher kid turns out to be an entitled SS one day.  Worst case: he turns into a criminal.  That's what lack of parenting can do.  My own kid is not quite sixteen, so not much older than that brat, and if he ever thought of behaving like that, he'd have his laptop and xBox taken away so fast, his head would spin.  (Thankfully, he is lovely with little kids, and his younger cousins adore him.)

Or maybe he turns into a saint that spends all his spare time feeding the homeless, while working on a cure for cancer. This kid did one mean thing, and now his only options is to grow up as a special snowflake, or a criminal. You can not predict a person's entire future based solely on one mean act as a child.

From the original post:

1. She shoved her so hard she fell into the corner of the tank and was crying. I told kid that he had hurt her, and 2. he replied with a surly "So, I wanted to be there, she should have moved when I told her to." His mother came over to see why I was speaking to her kid and I told her that he had shoved and hurt Niece. 3. Mother could not have cared less. Then the younger brother of Pusherboy decided he wanted in, and 4. Pusherboy shoved her again, My sister ( Niece's mom got her out of there and went to talk to staff) and I asked Nephew if he was ok. 5. Hearing this Pusherboy said "if he is, he won't be for long." At which point I told him he Would.Not.Shove.Nephew, or any other child again. And myself and a father put ourselves very close to our respective kids.

6. After the shark feeding the kid who was shoving, was laughing to his buddy about Niece crying being "cool"

None of this predicts that he will grow up to be a criminal. My point is you can never judge how someone is going to turn out based on one incident from their child hood. My parents were crap, and I was mean to my little brother. Now I'm a 35 year old happy house wife with a child of my own, the best husband in the world, and a whole bunch of people who love me. You can't condemn a person forever, based on an one observation of bad behavior, or the fact that they have a crappy parent. Heck how many people on this forum have told us they had crappy parents, and they turned out (mostly ;) ) to be good people.

None of this excuses his bad behavior, I just don't see how you can predict someone's entire future when we are missing 99.999% of the information about them

Ten million things will happen between now and his adult hood, that will shape him into a man, in good ways and in bad. This may be one of them but we will never know.
Never disregarded a child's unique ability to grow, learn, and change.

I don't believe I was the one who predicted he would wind up in the criminal system and/or become a special snowflake. All I did originally was point out that what he did was not, as you said, "one mean act".

His actions were not mean; they were violent. (I think mean includes such things as sticking out your tongue and waggling your fingers in your ears, and the like.)

And, to top it off, his words were dismissive and threatening.

"So, I wanted to be there, she should have moved when I told her to." "if he is, he won't be for long." 

The "so" was dismissive. The "she should have moved when I told her to" and "if he ies, he won't be for long" both are threatening.

Now, all that said, my initial observation was that the aquarium's officials reacted completely inappropriately. They refused to take action because they didn't see it despite the fact that they had juvenile victims who could tell what happened, as well as adult witnesses. What more would it take for them to take actions? Flowing blood and broken bones?

If parents refuse to take responsibility for their children's actions, as the mother of the perp apparently refused to do, then it is up to authorities to intervene. I am in no way saying that the victims' parents were not allowed to say anything. I am saying that this was a situation in which the venue's authorities dropped the ball.