Etiquette Hell

General Etiquette => Life...in general => Topic started by: weeblewobble on October 11, 2012, 10:05:58 AM

Title: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you. UPDATE P17
Post by: weeblewobble on October 11, 2012, 10:05:58 AM
My husband and one of his friends, Eric, discussed this situation the other night and I am still stunned.  Eric's wife, Kelly, is not a drama queen.  She doesn't play up illnesses or injuries.  When she says she's hurt, she's hurt. 

Kelly, an avid runner, is in training for a marathon.  Her friend, Stacy, decided to join her on runs a few months ago.  Kelly thought this was strange, since Stacy had never expressed an interest in running before.  But after a few weeks, when Stacy suggested "joining up" and running with another pair of women Stacy knew through work, it became apparent that Stacy wanted to use running as an excuse to spend time with two women Stacy saw as the "cool kids" in the office. 

Kelly didn't mind running with the other ladies as they seemed pretty nice, though very focused.  But she sort of liked the fact that they set a harder pace and helped her with her endurance.  Stacy became less and less friendly toward Kelly and seemed to be working to ingratiate herself with the other women. 

Last week, Kelly and the group was running on a park trail.  The park looks nice and picturesque, but there have been muggings and other assaults there, so it's not advisable for people to run alone.  The other women pulled ahead because Stacy was having trouble with the pace.  Kelly stayed with her.  Kelly had a missed step about five miles into the ten mile run and severely injured her ankle.  It immediately started to swell and she was in a lot of pain.

The other women were nowhere in sight.  Rather than staying with Kelly and making sure she got back to her car safely, Stacy told her to just walk back to the car and they would meet her when they were done with their run.  Which would take another hour or so. 

And then she ran off, leaving Kelly on the running path by herself.  Kelly tried to hobble back to her car but it hurt too much to walk.  She eventually came across park staff, who got some sort of maintenance golf-cart thing to carry her back to her car.  (They offered to call an ambulance, but she thought she'd OK driving herself. Eric was out of town and wasn't able to get to her.)  She was able to drive herself to the emergency room and got it x-rayed. One of her bones was fractured.   

Stacy called Kelly later that night, irritated that they'd come back to where their cars were parked and Kelly wasn't there.  Kelly explained about the x-ray and that she was not happy with Stacy for running off and leaving her injured, on a trail, to fend for herself so she could run off to catch up with the other women.  Stacy says she had a good pace going and she wanted to finish her run and dismissed Kelly's feelings with a "it's no big deal!" 

The other women called Kelly later, apologizing up and down because they hadn't realized Kelly was hurt and had no idea Stacy had left her behind like that. They said Stacy had told them that Kelly didn't feel like finishing the run and turned around.   (Stacy had called them to express her indignation that Kelly was mad at her and the whole story came out.) 

Stacy continues to tell everybody who will listen that this wasn't her fault and Kelly has no right to be angry with her.  She's tried to brazen her way through Kelly being mad at her by just pretending that the incident never happened and Kelly isn't mad.  Kelly is having no part of it.   Stacy's even calling Eric to try to get him to "talk some sense" into Kelly. 

Kelly is considering a temporary cut direct, but is reluctant because they've been friends for years and this is the first time Stacy has done something like this. Other than ignoring Stacy's phone calls, is there any way Kelly can convince Stacy that she did something wrong and has damaged their friendship?
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: TootsNYC on October 11, 2012, 10:12:04 AM
I wouldn't bother trying to convince Stacy; I'd just cool off.  Let time, and the other women's reaction, have an effect, if it's at all possible for it to.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: TurtleDove on October 11, 2012, 10:17:59 AM
As a runner, I can sortof see where Stacy is coming from, although knowing Kelly's disposition perhaps not.  It can be irritating to run with someone who simply does not want to push herself, or who expects you to slow down or walk when you are enjoying the run.  If Stacy thought Kelly was crying wolf, I can see her thinking it was no big deal to run on ahead.  I have had several running partners (who did not last long for this reason) ask me to run ahead  because they don't want to keep up.  There is nothing "wrong" with them aside from they aren't "feeling" the run, be it the pace or distance.

Here, it seems Kelly was legitimately physically hurt....but Stacey probably did not realize it.  I also didn't see that Kelly fully asked Stacey to stay with her or help her.  Kelly is hurt emotionally, but I think the best approach would be to explain to Stacy why she is upset and then drop it.  It's one incident in a longterm friendship. 

In my experience, runners who regularly run 10 miles are able to handle situations like this, either by carrying a cell phone (I always do) or being clear that they need help.  I don't see that Kelly did this.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: gramma dishes on October 11, 2012, 10:22:47 AM
...    is there any way Kelly can convince Stacy that she did something wrong and has damaged their friendship?

Stacy has indeed damaged their friendship.  You don't do that kind of thing to friends and clearly Stacy felt the other two women were far more important than her long time "friend" Kelly. 

If I were Kelly, I don't know that I'd actually do a cut direct but I'd certainly be a little frostier toward her and most definitely would not include her on any future runs or other activities.  It might be different if Stacy had actually realized after the fact that her behavior was extremely inappropriate, but clearly she doesn't feel that way.  What's that saying "When someone shows you who they are, believe them"?  I think Stacy has shown that although she may not be an "enemy",  she also is not a friend.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: Zilla on October 11, 2012, 10:23:19 AM
This isn't a lack of empathy but sheer selfishness and uncaring.  Taking out all the BG in the story it boils down to this: Person got hurt and was abandoned by her friend.  End of story.


I would stay out of it but be blunt on what you would do.  If you would stay friends or not.  I personally would not. 
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: TurtleDove on October 11, 2012, 10:25:08 AM
Can the OP clarify?  The way I read this, Kelly did NOT ask Stacey to stay with her or get her help and then Stacey refused.  That scenario I would agree Stacey was rude.

But if Kelly did not ask Stacey to stay or get her help, I can absolutely understand Stacey continuing on her run.  Kelly is an experienced runner and since she didn't ask for help I think it is normal for Stacey to have run ahead.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: bloo on October 11, 2012, 10:25:22 AM
...    is there any way Kelly can convince Stacy that she did something wrong and has damaged their friendship?

Stacy has indeed damaged their friendship.  You don't do that kind of thing to friends and clearly Stacy felt the other two women were far more important than her long time "friend" Kelly. 

If I were Kelly, I don't know that I'd actually do a cut direct but I'd certainly be a little frostier toward her and most definitely would not include her on any future runs or other activities.  It might be different if Stacy had actually realized after the fact that her behavior was extremely inappropriate, but clearly she doesn't feel that way.  What's that saying "When someone shows you who they are, believe them"?  I think Stacy has shown that although she may not be an "enemy",  she also is not a friend.

This. I totally agree.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: gramma dishes on October 11, 2012, 10:26:12 AM
As a runner, I can sortof see where Stacy is coming from, although knowing Kelly's disposition perhaps not.  It can be irritating to run with someone who simply does not want to push herself, or who expects you to slow down or walk when you are enjoying the run.  ...

Keep in mind though that according to the story, Kelly stayed behind for Stacy because it was Stacy who couldn't keep up the pace!
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: Zilla on October 11, 2012, 10:26:20 AM
As a runner, I can sortof see where Stacy is coming from, although knowing Kelly's disposition perhaps not.  It can be irritating to run with someone who simply does not want to push herself, or who expects you to slow down or walk when you are enjoying the run.  If Stacy thought Kelly was crying wolf, I can see her thinking it was no big deal to run on ahead.  I have had several running partners (who did not last long for this reason) ask me to run ahead  because they don't want to keep up.  There is nothing "wrong" with them aside from they aren't "feeling" the run, be it the pace or distance.

Here, it seems Kelly was legitimately physically hurt....but Stacey probably did not realize it.  I also didn't see that Kelly fully asked Stacey to stay with her or help her.  Kelly is hurt emotionally, but I think the best approach would be to explain to Stacy why she is upset and then drop it.  It's one incident in a longterm friendship. 

In my experience, runners who regularly run 10 miles are able to handle situations like this, either by carrying a cell phone (I always do) or being clear that they need help.  I don't see that Kelly did this.


I think you misread the OP.  Stacy was not the avid or good runner.  Kelly was and stayed behind to run with Stacy who wasn't keeping up.  Then Kelly got hurt.  Stacy left her.  And while it's smart to have a cellphone, who is she going to call when her friend should have helped her. 
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: bloo on October 11, 2012, 10:27:46 AM
Can the OP clarify?  The way I read this, Kelly did NOT ask Stacey to stay with her or get her help and then Stacey refused.  That scenario I would agree Stacey was rude.

But if Kelly did not ask Stacey to stay or get her help, I can absolutely understand Stacey continuing on her run.  Kelly is an experienced runner and since she didn't ask for help I think it is normal for Stacey to have run ahead.

I agree with you but when Stacy finished and realized Kelly was gone her reaction was to get irritated with Kelly? I'd have assumed something was seriously wrong if my friend up and left me. Once Stacy found out what happened, groveling apologies should commence, not continued justifications and pretending nothing was wrong. THAT is what is probably ticking Kelly off.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: TurtleDove on October 11, 2012, 10:27:57 AM
I am wondering if the differences in how some of us see this depends on how we see the purpose of the run.  If it was "girl time," then yes, it was rude for Stacey to run ahead (and also rude of the other two women).  If the purpose was to get in a 10 mile run, I do not think any of them were rude.  If I were Kelly, EVEN IF I WERE HURT, I would have expected the other women to continue the run unless I clearly asked them for help.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: bloo on October 11, 2012, 10:32:06 AM
I am wondering if the differences in how some of us see this depends on how we see the purpose of the run.  If it was "girl time," then yes, it was rude for Stacey to run ahead (and also rude of the other two women).  If the purpose was to get in a 10 mile run, I do not think any of them were rude.  If I were Kelly, EVEN IF I WERE HURT, I would have expected the other women to continue the run unless I clearly asked them for help.

I dunno. I'm a long-distance runner too but for personal pleasure not for marathons. I'd stop my run in a heartbeat if someone needed help. I have actually done that (stopped to help someone move furniture and to use my cell when their car I was running by broke down).

And in this case it simply wasn't possible for Kelly or Stacy to let the other women know right when it happened.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: TurtleDove on October 11, 2012, 10:32:41 AM
I think you misread the OP.  Stacy was not the avid or good runner.  Kelly was and stayed behind to run with Stacy who wasn't keeping up.  Then Kelly got hurt.  Stacy left her.  And while it's smart to have a cellphone, who is she going to call when her friend should have helped her.

No, I read it right.  I did not see that Kelly made it clear to Stacey that she wanted her to stay.  As the more experienced runner, I would have expected Kelly to do so if that is what she wanted.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: TurtleDove on October 11, 2012, 10:33:53 AM
I dunno. I'm a long-distance runner too but for personal pleasure not for marathons. I'd stop my run in a heartbeat if someone needed help. I have actually done that (stopped to help someone move furniture and to use my cell when their car I was running by broke down).

And in this case it simply wasn't possible for Kelly or Stacy to let the other women know right when it happened.

To the bolded, I would too.  What I keep saying, however, is that I did not see that Kelly made it clear to Stacey that she needed help.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: wolfie on October 11, 2012, 10:34:49 AM
I think Stacey knew something was wrong otherwise she wouldn't have told the other women that Kelley got bored and wanted to go home, vs she got a minor injury and decided to go home.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: Zilla on October 11, 2012, 10:35:01 AM
I am wondering if the differences in how some of us see this depends on how we see the purpose of the run.  If it was "girl time," then yes, it was rude for Stacey to run ahead (and also rude of the other two women).  If the purpose was to get in a 10 mile run, I do not think any of them were rude.  If I were Kelly, EVEN IF I WERE HURT, I would have expected the other women to continue the run unless I clearly asked them for help.


In the name of being fit, I still wouldn't have left her.  Especially knowing that this friend stayed back to run with her as to not leave her alone.  But you are right, there are differences in priorities.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: Shoo on October 11, 2012, 10:36:27 AM
I am wondering if the differences in how some of us see this depends on how we see the purpose of the run.  If it was "girl time," then yes, it was rude for Stacey to run ahead (and also rude of the other two women).  If the purpose was to get in a 10 mile run, I do not think any of them were rude.  If I were Kelly, EVEN IF I WERE HURT, I would have expected the other women to continue the run unless I clearly asked them for help.

In a park, where there are known to be muggings, you'd leave a friend behind who was hurt?  Or, if you were the hurt one, you wouldn't expect your friend to stay with you and/or help you get to a safe place?
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: gramma dishes on October 11, 2012, 10:37:23 AM
Stacy and Kelly weren't just runners.  They were supposedly friends.  Sorry, nothing would stop me from staying behind with my friend.  Especially since the only reason Kelly was 'back there' with Stacy in the first place was because Stacy couldn't keep up the pace.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: Yvaine on October 11, 2012, 10:37:28 AM
I am wondering if the differences in how some of us see this depends on how we see the purpose of the run.  If it was "girl time," then yes, it was rude for Stacey to run ahead (and also rude of the other two women).  If the purpose was to get in a 10 mile run, I do not think any of them were rude.  If I were Kelly, EVEN IF I WERE HURT, I would have expected the other women to continue the run unless I clearly asked them for help.

I think that whatever the purpose of the run, a medical emergency involving one of one's companions supersedes whatever else is going on. And that since this is an etiquette site, our priority is determining the etiquette of the situation, not the most efficient way to get a workout. Stacy was rude to leave her rather than help her, rude to lie to the friends, and rude to continue stirring up drama after the fact.

(And as for the purpose of the run, I think in Stacy's mind the purpose was social climbing.)
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: Yvaine on October 11, 2012, 10:38:48 AM
I dunno. I'm a long-distance runner too but for personal pleasure not for marathons. I'd stop my run in a heartbeat if someone needed help. I have actually done that (stopped to help someone move furniture and to use my cell when their car I was running by broke down).

And in this case it simply wasn't possible for Kelly or Stacy to let the other women know right when it happened.

To the bolded, I would too.  What I keep saying, however, is that I did not see that Kelly made it clear to Stacey that she needed help.

I think it would be clear when she took a misstep (and possibly fell), probably made a sound of pain, and limped afterward. We don't know the exact dialogue, but I think it would be pretty obvious she was hurt.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: gramma dishes on October 11, 2012, 10:38:54 AM
...   (And as for the purpose of the run, I think in Stacy's mind the purpose was social climbing.)

Bingo!
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: TurtleDove on October 11, 2012, 10:39:00 AM
In the name of being fit, I still wouldn't have left her.  Especially knowing that this friend stayed back to run with her as to not leave her alone.  But you are right, there are differences in priorities.
Yep, and how different people prefer to handle situaitons.  Like I said, if a running partner asked me to stay with them, I would.  If I were Kelly, I would not have wanted Stacey to stay with me.  If I were Stacey, and Kelly did not ask me to stay with her, I would have assumed she wanted me to run ahead.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: camlan on October 11, 2012, 10:40:53 AM
The only way I'd leave an injured friend (male or female) alone on a trail known to have had muggings and other assaults would be if the friend was so injured that they couldn't move and I had to go for help. Otherwise, I'm sticking with them until they are safe. Or if they tell me, in no uncertain terms, to go and leave them alone. They wouldn't have to *ask* for my help, because I would just help them.

One time when I was hiking with a friend, we cut our hike short because we encountered two other hikers, one with a broken leg, trying to get back to the trail head. Sure, we could have continued our hike, but instead we turned around and helped get the injured guy back to safety.

Of the 4 women in the group, Stacy seems to be the most "social" runner and the least interesting in improving her time or distance.

And there's no reason for her to be upset that Kelly drove herself to the hospital instead of waiting for the other three women to get back to the parking lot.

Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: Two Ravens on October 11, 2012, 10:42:27 AM
She left her injured friend alone in an area people had been mugged in, took off, and then lied to everyone about what had happened. I cannot see her behavior as justifiable.

Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: TurtleDove on October 11, 2012, 10:43:33 AM
In a park, where there are known to be muggings, you'd leave a friend behind who was hurt?  Or, if you were the hurt one, you wouldn't expect your friend to stay with you and/or help you get to a safe place?

I would not expect a friend to stay with me unless I specifically asked her to. If I asked and she refused, I would be upset.  But if I didn't ask, it would have been for a reason - I didn't want the help or for her to stay. Assuming this is broad daylight, I don't think the "mugging" location makes a difference, especially if other people are around.

If I knew my friend was hurt and wanted my help, of course I would help.  I have never left someone without them telling me it is okay and asking me to run ahead.  From the OP, Kelly never expressed to Stacy that she wanted her to stay (or really that she was seriously hurt).
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: Yvaine on October 11, 2012, 10:45:33 AM
From the OP, Kelly never expressed to Stacy that she wanted her to stay (or really that she was seriously hurt).

We do not know what she said! Their dialogue is not in the story at all. She might have said something or she might not have. We can't say with certainty that she didn't express it.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: TurtleDove on October 11, 2012, 10:46:05 AM
She left her injured friend alone in an area people had been mugged in, took off, and then lied to everyone about what had happened. I cannot see her behavior as justifiable.

Her behavior later, I agree is not justifiable.  I was responding to her decision to run ahead, which standing alone, I don't think is rude since Kelly did not ask her to stay with her.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: Yvaine on October 11, 2012, 10:46:56 AM
She left her injured friend alone in an area people had been mugged in, took off, and then lied to everyone about what had happened. I cannot see her behavior as justifiable.

Her behavior later, I agree is not justifiable.  I was responding to her decision to run ahead, which standing alone, I don't think is rude since Kelly did not ask her to stay with her.

Again, where do you get that she didn't ask? We don't know from the OP whether she asked or not.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: TurtleDove on October 11, 2012, 10:47:19 AM
From the OP, Kelly never expressed to Stacy that she wanted her to stay (or really that she was seriously hurt).

We do not know what she said! Their dialogue is not in the story at all. She might have said something or she might not have. We can't say with certainty that she didn't express it.

The OP did not say that Kelly asked Stacey to stay.  For me, as I have repeatedly said, that fact would change my approach to the etiquette issue.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: susku on October 11, 2012, 10:47:28 AM
She left her injured friend alone in an area people had been mugged in, took off, and then lied to everyone about what had happened. I cannot see her behavior as justifiable.

I totally agree. I would never leave an injured friend alone, unless it was to fetch help. There is no way I can ever agree with Stacy's actions.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: bloo on October 11, 2012, 10:47:33 AM
She left her injured friend alone in an area people had been mugged in, took off, and then lied to everyone about what had happened. I cannot see her behavior as justifiable.

Yeah, Stacy was pretty yucky. If this is a one-off, then Kelly can try reasoning with her. A social-climbing, careless, lying, argumentative little snot might not able to be reasoned with, though.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: Zilla on October 11, 2012, 10:47:40 AM
I think that's where the empathy comes in.  I would have stayed.  But like TurtleDove said, if she wasn't asked specifically it isn't necessarily rude to keep running.  It may appear to be a lack of empathy but shouldn't be.


But in the OP's specific scenario, why would she lie to the others?
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: TurtleDove on October 11, 2012, 10:48:22 AM

Again, where do you get that she didn't ask? We don't know from the OP whether she asked or not.

The OP was relatively thorough and made no mention of Kelly asking Stacey to stay.  I asked the OP to clarify and we have not heard yet.  I am going off what was in the OP.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: bloo on October 11, 2012, 10:49:16 AM
I think that's where the empathy comes in.  I would have stayed.  But like TurtleDove said, if she wasn't asked specifically it isn't necessarily rude to keep running.  It may appear to be a lack of empathy but shouldn't be.


But in the OP's specific scenario, why would she lie to the others?

Simple, because she knew her friend was injured and the 'cool kids' might've thought it weird that she didn't stay with her friend.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: Zilla on October 11, 2012, 10:51:21 AM
I think that's where the empathy comes in.  I would have stayed.  But like TurtleDove said, if she wasn't asked specifically it isn't necessarily rude to keep running.  It may appear to be a lack of empathy but shouldn't be.


But in the OP's specific scenario, why would she lie to the others?

Simple, because she knew her friend was injured and the 'cool kids' might've thought it weird that she didn't stay with her friend.


I was asking the OP, if she comes back to clarify.  I think the same thing Bloo!
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: bloo on October 11, 2012, 10:53:46 AM
I think that's where the empathy comes in.  I would have stayed.  But like TurtleDove said, if she wasn't asked specifically it isn't necessarily rude to keep running.  It may appear to be a lack of empathy but shouldn't be.


But in the OP's specific scenario, why would she lie to the others?

Simple, because she knew her friend was injured and the 'cool kids' might've thought it weird that she didn't stay with her friend.


I was asking the OP, if she comes back to clarify.  I think the same thing Bloo!

Gotcha! I'd love to know too, so I hope Weeble can respond when able. :)
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: Cat-Fu on October 11, 2012, 10:55:48 AM
I think the point is that someone who is empathetic would stop their run and take the time to ensure that their friend is OK to walk before running off. (Especially in an area where muggings happen, assuming daylight doesn't make a difference, which is the case in many areas.)

Kelly should hold off answering Stacey's calls until she receives a voicemail with a sincere apology in it.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: Cyradis on October 11, 2012, 10:56:12 AM
If I was Kelly I wouldn't bother to try and make Stacy see her point of view. Stacy sounds self absorbed and petty and that type can seldom comprehend that they messed up. It will probably be amusing to think of Stacy trying to do damage control if her 'cool' friends condemn her for abandoning Kelly.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: WillyNilly on October 11, 2012, 10:56:20 AM
Kelly had a missed step about five miles into the ten mile run and severely injured her ankle.  It immediately started to swell and she was in a lot of pain.

They say communication is only about 8-10% verbal, the rest is body language.
As far as I'm concerned Kelly did ask Stacy to help, even if non verbally.  Her ankle was visibly swollen.  This is absolute evidence of an injury.  For Stacy to leave even if Kelly said she could hobble, was socially and morally irresponsible of Stacy.  As a friend foremost, but even just as a human, Stacy had a moral obligation to help a visibly injured person to safety, or to at least notify someone of the issue if she left.  (By lying to the two other women Stacy killed any chance of any of them finding a park employee and notifying that person of an injured person further back on the trail.)
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: wolfie on October 11, 2012, 10:58:22 AM
 I reread the OP's story again and I interpret the bit about Stacey refusing to stay and telling Kelley to hobble back as Kelley asked for help and Stacey said no and told Kelley she could get back on her own.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: TootsNYC on October 11, 2012, 10:58:35 AM
If Kelly was limping,  I'd have stopped my run. And at the very least assumed that I was going to help her back to the car.

She'd have to TELL me to leave her alone.

And even if it hadn't seemed that big of an injury, the part that amazes me is that Stacy was *irritated* at Kelly, instead of worried, when she discovered her friend had left.

And even if it had been minor, I wouldn't have expected my friend to hang around while I finished my 10-mile run.

Yvaine has it right:
Quote
.
And that since this is an etiquette site, our priority is determining the etiquette of the situation, not the most efficient way to get a workout. Stacy was rude to leave her rather than help her, rude to lie to the friends, and rude to continue stirring up drama after the fact.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: Aeris on October 11, 2012, 10:59:44 AM
From the OP, Kelly never expressed to Stacy that she wanted her to stay (or really that she was seriously hurt).

We do not know what she said! Their dialogue is not in the story at all. She might have said something or she might not have. We can't say with certainty that she didn't express it.

The OP did not say that Kelly asked Stacey to stay.  For me, as I have repeatedly said, that fact would change my approach to the etiquette issue.

And what if Stacey ran off while Kelly was still assessing her injury, before she had a chance to decide whether she needed help or not?

I actually think it's far more important that Stacey ask Kelly directly whether Kelly is alright enough for Stacey to continue the run, than that Kelly make the direct request. Someone who cares about someone else's well being doesn't just assume the injured person is fine, they ask.

It just makes it more heinous that Stacey apparently did not ask her friend whether she minded if she ran ahead or needed help when clearly Kelly had held back her pace in order to stay with Stacey.

I have a number of long distance endurance runner friends, and I can say with confidence that each and every one of them would make sure an injured running partner was definitely okay (by asking directly), and wanted them to run on, before they would leave them. (And possibly not even then.) Each of them knows that that particular run on that particular day, and their own personal endorphin high from it, is not more important than a friend's safety, health, and well-being.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: Calypso on October 11, 2012, 11:04:43 AM


I would not expect a friend to stay with me unless I specifically asked her to. If I asked and she refused, I would be upset.  But if I didn't ask, it would have been for a reason - I didn't want the help or for her to stay. Assuming this is broad daylight, I don't think the "mugging" location makes a difference, especially if other people are around.

 

I don't know where you live, but in Northern California, I've heard way too many stories of runners/walkers getting attacked on trails in broad daylight. The fact that the women didn't feel safe unless they ran as a group is indication that this is that kind of situation.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: Mental Magpie on October 11, 2012, 11:06:44 AM
IMHO, a friend wouldn't need to ask me to stay; they would actually have to tell me to leave.

Stacy's behavior is only made worse by the fact that she lied about it later.  If I kept running because I didn't know my friend was hurt only to find out what happened later, I would be all over myself apologizing.

ETA: a correction, because "earlier" and "later" are different times in this instance.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: lowspark on October 11, 2012, 11:09:44 AM
So you're with a friend and she missteps and her ankle is so hurt that she cannot continue to run. And you leave her behind? Really?

Wouldn't you at least say, "Are you ok? Are you in pain? Do you need me to help you get back to your car or do you need me to go for help?"

I simply cannot imagine abandoning a friend under these circumstances without at least asking first. I don't think it matters if Kelly asked, what matters is why didn't Stacy ask?

OP said: It immediately started to swell and she was in a lot of pain.
I have a hard time believing Stacy didn't see that.

But regardless, Kelly is not continuing the run due to an injury that occured in front of Stacy. The absolute very least Stacy can do is to make sure Kelly is ok physically AND ok to be left behind if Stacy continues the run.

Anyone who can't do that is not someone I'd want to be friends with.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: Two Ravens on October 11, 2012, 11:21:05 AM


I would not expect a friend to stay with me unless I specifically asked her to. If I asked and she refused, I would be upset.  But if I didn't ask, it would have been for a reason - I didn't want the help or for her to stay. Assuming this is broad daylight, I don't think the "mugging" location makes a difference, especially if other people are around.

 

I don't know where you live, but in Northern California, I've heard way too many stories of runners/walkers getting attacked on trails in broad daylight. The fact that the women didn't feel safe unless they ran as a group is indication that this is that kind of situation.


Even taking the muggers out of the picture, what if she had stumbled off the trail and hit her head? Or found she was unable to make it back to the car under her own power. I think seeing her safely back to the car is the minimum she should have done.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: NyaChan on October 11, 2012, 11:21:49 AM
Someone like this is never going to see Kelly's point of view.  Stacey may have initially realized she flubbed it and would look bad for what she did, hence the lie - but at this point, it seems like she has or is trying to rewrite history to reflect the version that makes her look ok.  I know some people who are so determined to not come off badly that they even convince themselves that the version they like is the truth.  Unfortunately, she needs Kelly to cooperate to make this happen and Kelly isn't having it (good for her!), which is why Stacey's trying to act as if nothing happened and that it is Kelly who needs to have some sense talked into her.  The other people involved seem to know what happened, so I would ignore Stacey's attempts and just hold firm.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: Surianne on October 11, 2012, 11:23:30 AM
Hmm.  I can see both sides on this one.  When I'm injured, I don't like people around asking me about it -- I prefer to deal with the pain on my own.  So if Stacy is like me, I can see not understanding that Kelly would have wanted help.  To me there's a big difference between "limping and too sore to go for the rest of the run" and "so hurt it's an emergency/I need help walking."  The former doesn't necessarily imply the latter.  I'm clumsy so I wind up limping pretty frequently and don't consider it a big issue.  So if Kelly hadn't told me she wanted help, I might very well have continued the run too, not realizing how hurt she was and assuming that she and I had similar attitudes toward injuries. 
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: camlan on October 11, 2012, 11:24:52 AM
I reread the OP's story again and I interpret the bit about Stacey refusing to stay and telling Kelley to hobble back as Kelley asked for help and Stacey said no and told Kelley she could get back on her own.

That was my take on it as well. There had to be some discussion in order for Stacey to "refuse" to stay.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: NyaChan on October 11, 2012, 11:26:04 AM
I reread the OP's story again and I interpret the bit about Stacey refusing to stay and telling Kelley to hobble back as Kelley asked for help and Stacey said no and told Kelley she could get back on her own.

That was my take on it as well. There had to be some discussion in order for Stacey to "refuse" to stay.

This is how I read it as well. 
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: Lorelei_Evil on October 11, 2012, 11:27:27 AM
I fall a LOT.  I am lucky in that I rarely hurt myself.  This whole scenario outrages me - I'm very happy that people stop and ask if I'm OK when I crash.  When I broke my elbow at a street festival, complete strangers took me to the ER.  Were I with a friend, there would be now way I'd be left even if I said I was OK.  It's just not on.

One thing about my falls is that I may not realize how badly injured I am at first.  Kelly may have just thought she tweaked her ankle a little.  I walked around on a broken foot for days before the pain drove me to seek care once.  It's on me to communicate that I need help and seek it, but it's not a free pass for someone to just take off and leave.   

Do unto others, if you will.  One day that might be you hurt, or someone you care for.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: fountainof on October 11, 2012, 11:27:40 AM
Whether I would stay or not would be a matter of the situation and what the person wanted.  I would certaily offer though.  However, if told to go ahead I would not lie to the other runners about where Kelly is.  The only motive for that could be selfish as in not wanting the other runners to leave you to go back and see Kelly, I mean why else would you lie?

Then to be upset Kelly left to tend to her injuries just added to the situation, afterall, if I returned and my friend's car was gone I would assume she had to leave and I would call to see if she were okay.  My first instinct wouldn't be to be pissed off.

So overall, I would cool my friendship with Stacey, afterall she is more concerned with how she appears to the two other runners and saving face there than Kelly's feelings or injury.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: ettiquit on October 11, 2012, 11:30:23 AM
No friend, acquaintance, stranger, or enemy of mine would need to ask me for help if they injure themselves, regardless of what I'm doing.

This less about lack of empathy and more about common decency.

Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: Jones on October 11, 2012, 11:31:13 AM
Heck, taking muggers out of the picture, what if she'd collapsed from pain and been attacked by a roaming dog? Or a rabid (insert wildlife here)?

I am not a distance runner yet, though I do power walking and switch to a jog or run for a few minutes at a time, and I see no good coming out of leaving a partner alone away from civilization, badly injured or no. Even if they'd done in-town running and the injury happened in front of someone's house, you make sure your friend is being properly cared for. Stacy's actions just blow me away.

PS--Most of the wildlife parks in my area have bad cell phone reception, I am operating under an assumption here but perhaps it was impossibly for Kelly to call for help.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: TheaterDiva1 on October 11, 2012, 11:35:59 AM
Can we assume Stacy will get her come-uppance once these women know the truth and see her true colors?
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: K_Bear on October 11, 2012, 11:36:35 AM
Only a completely, self centered jerk would leave an injured, even if slightly, runner behind. Even if NOT asked to remain behind, most people would out of common decency. Especially in an out of the way area, where even if the runner thinks she is fine, it is a long way back to the car.

And to act all defensive, and to continue to sway others to her point of view just cements it.

I am glad to have a workout team that cares for each other. And not someone so shallow as to leave a member behind just because their workout is more important.

Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: bloo on October 11, 2012, 11:40:24 AM
No friend, acquaintance, stranger, or enemy of mine would need to ask me for help if they injure themselves, regardless of what I'm doing.

This less about lack of empathy and more about common decency.

I agree.

This reminds me of what happened to DH a few years back (gross alert!). He was fishing on a rocky area of a causeway that the state pours concrete on to make the rocks 'safer' for shore fishermen. Well the rocks gave way under my DH and he fell and badly injured his knee. He was crying out in pain and the hanging skin and exposed bone and blood coursing down his leg  could plainly be seen. His stepfather, fishing next to him, NEVER stopped casting, except to say, "You gonna be okay?" Due to the dynamics of the relationship (DH knows his step-dad is self-absorbed and really doesn't care about anybody but himself), he clambered up the rocks, got in his car and DROVE himself to the ER (thankful it was his left leg or he would've had to beg for help)!

His mother was disgusted with his step-dad (because I made sure she knew about it) but she knew what kind of person he was.

The best part? His stepfather is a doctor... :o
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: Judah on October 11, 2012, 11:45:26 AM
Only a completely, self centered jerk would leave an injured, even if slightly, runner behind. Even if NOT asked to remain behind, most people would out of common decency. Especially in an out of the way area, where even if the runner thinks she is fine, it is a long way back to the car.

While I think Stacey was incredibly self-centered and wrong, I don't agree with the statement above.  If my partner and I are in the middle of an important run, one that is crucial to a particular goal or upcoming event, and I hurt myself, as long as I can limp back to the car, there is no way I would want my partner to stop their run to tend to me.  I know how important certain runs are to me, and I wouldn't want to set their training back because of something minor.  I think that all situations are different and that while in this case, Stacey was wrong, she wouldn't be wrong in all cases.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: Moray on October 11, 2012, 11:46:27 AM
IMHO, a friend wouldn't need to ask me to stay; they would actually have to tell me to leave.

Stacy's behavior is only made worse by the fact that she lied about it later.  If I kept running because I didn't know my friend was hurt only to find out what happened later, I would be all over myself apologizing.

ETA: a correction, because "earlier" and "later" are different times in this instance.

Exactly. Stacy's behavior just doesn't say "friend" to me.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: Surianne on October 11, 2012, 11:52:48 AM
Only a completely, self centered jerk would leave an injured, even if slightly, runner behind. Even if NOT asked to remain behind, most people would out of common decency. Especially in an out of the way area, where even if the runner thinks she is fine, it is a long way back to the car.

While I think Stacey was incredibly self-centered and wrong, I don't agree with the statement above.  If my partner and I are in the middle of an important run, one that is crucial to a particular goal or upcoming event, and I hurt myself, as long as I can limp back to the car, there is no way I would want my partner to stop their run to tend to me.  I know how important certain runs are to me, and I wouldn't want to set their training back because of something minor.  I think that all situations are different and that while in this case, Stacey was wrong, she wouldn't be wrong in all cases.

I agree.  I would also be very offended and annoyed if I told someone I was fine, and they refused to leave me alone anyway. 

(Speaking to the general concept and K-Bear's post, of course -- I know that isn't what happened with Kelly.)
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: bloo on October 11, 2012, 11:54:27 AM
http://www.totalprosports.com/2012/06/05/high-school-runner-stops-to-help-fallen-competitor-at-state-track-finals/

http://tweentribune.com/content/believe-it-or-not-ripley-stops-racing-help-rival?page=1&destination=

These youngsters are the kind of people I'd want to be friends with AND run with...
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: Pigeon on October 11, 2012, 11:57:08 AM
No friend, acquaintance, stranger, or enemy of mine would need to ask me for help if they injure themselves, regardless of what I'm doing.

This less about lack of empathy and more about common decency.

I agree.

This reminds me of what happened to DH a few years back (gross alert!). He was fishing on a rocky area of a causeway that the state pours concrete on to make the rocks 'safer' for shore fishermen. Well the rocks gave way under my DH and he fell and badly injured his knee. He was crying out in pain and the hanging skin and exposed bone and blood coursing down his leg  could plainly be seen. His stepfather, fishing next to him, NEVER stopped casting, except to say, "You gonna be okay?" Due to the dynamics of the relationship (DH knows his step-dad is self-absorbed and really doesn't care about anybody but himself), he clambered up the rocks, got in his car and DROVE himself to the ER (thankful it was his left leg or he would've had to beg for help)!

His mother was disgusted with his step-dad (because I made sure she knew about it) but she knew what kind of person he was.

The best part? His stepfather is a doctor... :o

Same here.  A few weekends ago, I was competing in a mountain bike race.  I had a great pace going, was in a terrific rhythm, and all was right with the world. 

As I rounded a turn, I saw that a fellow cyclist had crashed.  We'd never met before that day and she was competing in my class/category.  I pulled up and asked her if she and her bike were OK.  She said she was cool and to go ahead on.  I asked if she was sure and offered to backtrack to get the nearest course marshal if she needed help.  She was all good, so I continued.

No other behavior would have occurred to me. Fetching a course marshal would have certainly killed my chance at placing, but I didn't consider it at the time.

Competition or no, I feel this is basic decency. 
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: Roe on October 11, 2012, 12:03:37 PM
Stacy was absolutely in the wrong.  If I were Kelly, I'd pull wayyy back from that "friendship." 

Sad but it seems as if there are more and more self-absorbed people about.  Just what I've noticed the last couple of years, not any study I can point to.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: TootsNYC on October 11, 2012, 12:04:03 PM


I would not expect a friend to stay with me unless I specifically asked her to. If I asked and she refused, I would be upset.  But if I didn't ask, it would have been for a reason - I didn't want the help or for her to stay. Assuming this is broad daylight, I don't think the "mugging" location makes a difference, especially if other people are around.

 

I don't know where you live, but in Northern California, I've heard way too many stories of runners/walkers getting attacked on trails in broad daylight. The fact that the women didn't feel safe unless they ran as a group is indication that this is that kind of situation.


Even taking the muggers out of the picture, what if she had stumbled off the trail and hit her head? Or found she was unable to make it back to the car under her own power. I think seeing her safely back to the car is the minimum she should have done.

which, in fact, she did.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: BuffaloFang on October 11, 2012, 12:08:42 PM
I think a medical emergency supersedes the need for the injured to "ask for help".  Basic human decency assumes that anyone witnessing the injury will help.  If someone falls down of a heart attack, is it okay to walk away because you weren't asked to help?

I'm a distance runner, and I would never leave a running buddy behind like that unless the injured person asked me to. Especially on a long run, since it would presumably be around 40-50 minutes until they'd be done to check on her.  So many things can happen in that amount of time.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: weeblewobble on October 11, 2012, 12:11:23 PM
Sorry.  To clarify, Kelly didn't directly ask Stacy, please stay behind and help me.  My impression was she didn't think she would have to after saying she was in a lot of pain. Maybe that was her mistake assuming Stacy would take that as a cue to help.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: weeblewobble on October 11, 2012, 12:13:52 PM
Also it was full morning daylight when this occured. 
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: Corbin on October 11, 2012, 12:15:45 PM
Ok, I tell myself to be quiet, but sometimes I can't help it.

Quick little story (it's relevant, I swear):

I was at a military training course that is required for my career progression. One of the first things we had to do upon arrival was take a physical fitness test. If you fail, you get sent home in disgrace. In my case, it would have meant losing the new position I had just been promoted into.

We were part way into the 2 mile run when a lady near me stepped wrong and twisted her knee. She was hurt pretty badly and was struggling to get back up. I stopped, helped her up, put her arm around my shoulder, and walked back to the start line. There was no way I could make it to the finish in time to pass, but it was the least I could do. Did I mention that I had never met this woman in my life? So in short, this was not a case where the area we were in was dangerous. The fallout for me was potentially significant. This was a total stranger...but I reacted in a way that I would think *any* decent human being would react. The woman in the OP's story showed an appalling lack of care and concern for someone who is supposedly her friend, all in the name of something as insignificant as finishing a training run. That is, in my mind, indefensible.

(By the way, I did luck out; the command let me retake my entire test at 4am the next morning, due to the fact that I argued that since I was a medic, passing an injured soldier would have been a violation of my oath. And I made a friend, too. Granted, I did miss out on two hours of sleep, and I had to do my push-ups and sit-ups while very very sore from having done them the previous day, but it was still less painful than the harm I would have done by passing by the injured soldier)
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: bopper on October 11, 2012, 12:16:44 PM
Even if we give Stacy the benefit of the doubt that she didn't know Kelly was truly hurt, her actions afterwards are not "Oh I am so sorry Kelly, I truly didn't realize you were hurt! Are you okay now?" and not "Stacy continues to tell everybody who will listen that this wasn't her fault and Kelly has no right to be angry with her.  She's tried to brazen her way through Kelly being mad at her by just pretending that the incident never happened and Kelly isn't mad."
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: wyliefool on October 11, 2012, 12:20:12 PM
I was watching the Tour de France a few years ago, when Jan Ullrich (2d place) went right over the guard rail going downhill in the Pyrenees. Lance stopped and waited for him to get up, get his bike, and get back on the road. If Lance, maniac competitor, can do that w/ a close competitor in a huge race, then a 'friend' can help her running buddy instead of leaving her alone in an unsafe park 5 miles from the car.

She was annoyed when she got to the parking lot and Kelly's car was gone. What would she have done if the car was there but Kelly wasn't? Declare that Kelly would never expect her to wait around and stiffen up after her run, and then go home to a hot shower? If Kelly's body was found, beaten and raped, would she have still been declaring how it wasn't her fault? Pish.

ETA: At least Kelly can hopefully have the satisfaction of knowing that Stacy's attempt to cozy up to the 'cool kids' has imploded. Maybe she'll even wind up w/ 2 new running buddies.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: bloo on October 11, 2012, 12:20:34 PM
Ok, I tell myself to be quiet, but sometimes I can't help it.

Quick little story (it's relevant, I swear):

I was at a military training course that is required for my career progression. One of the first things we had to do upon arrival was take a physical fitness test. If you fail, you get sent home in disgrace. In my case, it would have meant losing the new position I had just been promoted into.

We were part way into the 2 mile run when a lady near me stepped wrong and twisted her knee. She was hurt pretty badly and was struggling to get back up. I stopped, helped her up, put her arm around my shoulder, and walked back to the start line. There was no way I could make it to the finish in time to pass, but it was the least I could do. Did I mention that I had never met this woman in my life? So in short, this was not a case where the area we were in was dangerous. The fallout for me was potentially significant. This was a total stranger...but I reacted in a way that I would think *any* decent human being would react. The woman in the OP's story showed an appalling lack of care and concern for someone who is supposedly her friend, all in the name of something as insignificant as finishing a training run. That is, in my mind, indefensible.

(By the way, I did luck out; the command let me retake my entire test at 4am the next morning, due to the fact that I argued that since I was a medic, passing an injured soldier would have been a violation of my oath. And I made a friend, too. Granted, I did miss out on two hours of sleep, and I had to do my push-ups and sit-ups while very very sore from having done them the previous day, but it was still less painful than the harm I would have done by passing by the injured soldier)

It doesn't sound enough to say that you're a fine example of a 'decent' person! :)
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: Visiting Crazy Town on October 11, 2012, 12:20:42 PM
While not a runner I consider myself a decent human being and there is no way  that  I could have continued the run leaving them behind.  If running is so important to you then you can always continue the run later after making sure that they were ok.  I don't think that Kelly is overreacting at all because Stacy has shown herself to be a person that you can't depend on. I would question the humanity of ANY person that would leave a person behind in this situation.  I think this goes way beyond a lack of empathy and says that I think that a person that could leave someone behind in this situation shows a lack of human decency.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: Moray on October 11, 2012, 12:22:01 PM
Stacy didn't even necessarily need to stay; all she needed to do was ask "Do you want help?". Kelly might have said yes, or she might have said no, but Stacy didn't even bother.

I don't know about anyone else, but when I've busted my ankle (mine roll like crazy and are prone to bad sprains), it takes me a  couple moments to think of anything but "OWOWOWOWOWOW!!!!". If I were Kelly, I would not have been capable of saying "Please, don't go!" as I was hitting the ground, and it would never have occurred to me that I needed to make asking for help an immediate priority because if I waited for a second, my "friend" would already be off again.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: weeblewobble on October 11, 2012, 12:22:55 PM
I think Stacy downplayed kelly's injury to the other ladies because she realized she messed up after she left Kelly.  But i am just speculating.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: Lorelei_Evil on October 11, 2012, 12:23:18 PM
Even if we give Stacy the benefit of the doubt that she didn't know Kelly was truly hurt, her actions afterwards are not "Oh I am so sorry Kelly, I truly didn't realize you were hurt! Are you okay now?" and not "Stacy continues to tell everybody who will listen that this wasn't her fault and Kelly has no right to be angry with her.  She's tried to brazen her way through Kelly being mad at her by just pretending that the incident never happened and Kelly isn't mad."

That's the essence right there.  Stacy is trying to save face and still keep an option to suck up to the popular office girls.

Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: bloo on October 11, 2012, 12:26:43 PM
I think Stacy downplayed kelly's injury to the other ladies because she realized she messed up after she left Kelly.  But i am just speculating.

You know them so you're probably right. Unfortunately Stacy doesn't realize she's seriously impacting her friendship with Kelly by CONTINUING to act so rancid. Grovelling is in order here.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: Twik on October 11, 2012, 12:28:22 PM
I dunno. I'm a long-distance runner too but for personal pleasure not for marathons. I'd stop my run in a heartbeat if someone needed help. I have actually done that (stopped to help someone move furniture and to use my cell when their car I was running by broke down).

And in this case it simply wasn't possible for Kelly or Stacy to let the other women know right when it happened.

To the bolded, I would too.  What I keep saying, however, is that I did not see that Kelly made it clear to Stacey that she needed help.

I would assume that someone limping, practically unable to walk, and in severe pain makes it clear that they need help, even if they try to pull the "maybe it's not too bad" routine.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: Sterling on October 11, 2012, 12:29:55 PM
The broad daylight doe not negate the mugging aspect.  Many running trails are secluded and make great places to attack people even during the day.  Leaving someone when local reports TELL you not to run alone at a certain place indicates a level of selfishness that is beyond belief.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: weeblewobble on October 11, 2012, 12:31:52 PM
I dunno. I'm a long-distance runner too but for personal pleasure not for marathons. I'd stop my run in a heartbeat if someone needed help. I have actually done that (stopped to help someone move furniture and to use my cell when their car I was running by broke down).

And in this case it simply wasn't possible for Kelly or Stacy to let the other women know right when it happened.

To the bolded, I would too.  What I keep saying, however, is that I did not see that Kelly made it clear to Stacey that she needed help.

I think it would be clear when she took a misstep (and possibly fell), probably made a sound of pain, and limped afterward. We don't know the exact dialogue, but I think it would be pretty obvious she was hurt.



And to be honest i don't know the exact dialogue either.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: TootsNYC on October 11, 2012, 12:33:03 PM
I think Stacy downplayed kelly's injury to the other ladies because she realized she messed up after she left Kelly.  But i am just speculating.

You know them so you're probably right. Unfortunately Stacy doesn't realize she's seriously impacting her friendship with Kelly by CONTINUING to act so rancid. Grovelling is in order here.

Stacy also doesn't realize she's impacting her relationship with the Cool Girls from the office!! And everyone else she complains to.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: wolfie on October 11, 2012, 12:36:32 PM


I would not expect a friend to stay with me unless I specifically asked her to. If I asked and she refused, I would be upset.  But if I didn't ask, it would have been for a reason - I didn't want the help or for her to stay. Assuming this is broad daylight, I don't think the "mugging" location makes a difference, especially if other people are around.

 

I don't know where you live, but in Northern California, I've heard way too many stories of runners/walkers getting attacked on trails in broad daylight. The fact that the women didn't feel safe unless they ran as a group is indication that this is that kind of situation.


Even taking the muggers out of the picture, what if she had stumbled off the trail and hit her head? Or found she was unable to make it back to the car under her own power. I think seeing her safely back to the car is the minimum she should have done.

which, in fact, she did.

I think I misunderstood what Toots typed. I think she meant that Kelley found she was unable to make it back to the car under her own power. 
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: audrey1962 on October 11, 2012, 12:37:28 PM
Kelly is considering a temporary cut direct, but is reluctant because they've been friends for years and this is the first time Stacy has done something like this. Other than ignoring Stacy's phone calls, is there any way Kelly can convince Stacy that she did something wrong and has damaged their friendship?

This is hard to answer as it really depends on Kelly and Stacy. If it were me, I would just give a cut direct and forget about Stacy as I don't need people like that in my life. However, Kelly knows Stacy better than I do, so maybe a face-to-face conversation would help? I think only Kelly can make that decision.

I do think Stacy is social climbing and that the "cool" girls now see her for who she is.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: Yvaine on October 11, 2012, 12:41:16 PM


I would not expect a friend to stay with me unless I specifically asked her to. If I asked and she refused, I would be upset.  But if I didn't ask, it would have been for a reason - I didn't want the help or for her to stay. Assuming this is broad daylight, I don't think the "mugging" location makes a difference, especially if other people are around.

 

I don't know where you live, but in Northern California, I've heard way too many stories of runners/walkers getting attacked on trails in broad daylight. The fact that the women didn't feel safe unless they ran as a group is indication that this is that kind of situation.


Even taking the muggers out of the picture, what if she had stumbled off the trail and hit her head? Or found she was unable to make it back to the car under her own power. I think seeing her safely back to the car is the minimum she should have done.

which, in fact, she did.

I don't think getting a ride with a park ranger counts for getting back to her car under her own power.

I think you and Two Ravens actually agree. I think TR is saying that she did indeed find herself unable.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: snowdragon on October 11, 2012, 12:41:35 PM
I am a runner, I am training for a triathlon. I run with a paid personal trainer who is experienced in training people for these events. When she fell on wet grass - I stopped to help her out.  It's called being human.
  Take out the muggings and you still have someone with a visible swelling, who is hobbling and who has a 5 mile walk back to the cars. You don't leave a man behind -ever, but especially under the circumstances described, with or without the muggings.
   Stacy is a real git. And honestly I would have a hard time being friendly towards her again. Whether I was the injured party or one of the two other women.  Stacy's actions after the run say everything that needs being said, no matter what went through her mind at the time.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: Twik on October 11, 2012, 12:53:52 PM
Kelly is considering a temporary cut direct, but is reluctant because they've been friends for years and this is the first time Stacy has done something like this. Other than ignoring Stacy's phone calls, is there any way Kelly can convince Stacy that she did something wrong and has damaged their friendship?
Since Stacy seems pretty oblivious, to the point of telling the story to other people with the assumption that they'll consider Kelly was wrong, I think the only thing one could do is sit her down, and tell her directly about one's feelings. I don't think subtlety will work here.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: TootsNYC on October 11, 2012, 01:01:18 PM

Even taking the muggers out of the picture, what if she had stumbled off the trail and hit her head? Or found she was unable to make it back to the car under her own power. I think seeing her safely back to the car is the minimum she should have done.

which, in fact, she did.

I think I misunderstood what Toots typed. I think she meant that Kelley found she was unable to make it back to the car under her own power.

Yes, that is what I meant--that's what I get for being literal.

She did find that she was unable.

Maybe "which, in fact, was the case" would have been clearer. Sorry!
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: TurtleDove on October 11, 2012, 01:09:16 PM
Sorry.  To clarify, Kelly didn't directly ask Stacy, please stay behind and help me.  My impression was she didn't think she would have to after saying she was in a lot of pain. Maybe that was her mistake assuming Stacy would take that as a cue to help.

I think this boils down to how people would want to be treated.  If I were Kelly and were in a lot of pain, I would NOT have wanted Stacey around.  If I physically needed help getting to my car I would have asked for it.  I can see other personalities would react differently, but when I am injured I do NOT want people around me fawning over me, asking me if I need help, demanding to help me out, hovering over me, etc.  I just don't.

I would not have handled this how Stacey did, especially the aftermath, but I don't think it's a hard and fast rule that compassionate empathetic people would force themselves upon someone who does not want help.  If I were Kelly, it would have irritated me if Stacey had fawne over me or insisted she stay with me UNLESS I asked her to.

I was running last week pre-dawn with a friend and running partner.  We were on an 8 mile run.  I tripped and fell HARD.  I thought I had broken my arm (just a deep bruise, and a bruised ego).  My running partner immediately hovered around me and I said this: "Syd, I know you are trying to help but please just leave me alone for a second.  Run ahead and I'll catch up but I need some space right now."  And that is what we did.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: NyaChan on October 11, 2012, 01:11:31 PM
TurtleDove, Would you have felt irritated if she had just asked you, "Do you need help or should I run on?"

I think that asking that is a basic courtesy.  Now if they persisted after asking that and you had told them you needed no help, then I think they've gone too far.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: TootsNYC on October 11, 2012, 01:19:49 PM
also, an arm is different from a foot (speaking as someone who wrenched the crap out of her foot/ankle). You have to WALK on a foot.

If you'd injured your foot or ankle to the same degree, would you have sent your running partner on ahead?

And again--you prefer to be left alone, but I betcha a nickel you personally, were you Syd, would not have run off until specifically TOLD to.

And I don't think it boils down to how people prefer. I think the default is that if your companion is injured, you don't leave them until you know that it's OK with them and that they don't, in fact, need help.

Thinking Stacy was wrong doesn't mean I think you personally have to accept help even if you don't WANT to.

Syd did the right thing, waiting until told specifically to carry on. We are all saying that is what STACY should have done. This story really only applies to SYD in your example--not to you.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: ettiquit on October 11, 2012, 01:20:25 PM
Sorry.  To clarify, Kelly didn't directly ask Stacy, please stay behind and help me.  My impression was she didn't think she would have to after saying she was in a lot of pain. Maybe that was her mistake assuming Stacy would take that as a cue to help.

I think this boils down to how people would want to be treated.  If I were Kelly and were in a lot of pain, I would NOT have wanted Stacey around.  If I physically needed help getting to my car I would have asked for it.  I can see other personalities would react differently, but when I am injured I do NOT want people around me fawning over me, asking me if I need help, demanding to help me out, hovering over me, etc.  I just don't.

I would not have handled this how Stacey did, especially the aftermath, but I don't think it's a hard and fast rule that compassionate empathetic people would force themselves upon someone who does not want help.  If I were Kelly, it would have irritated me if Stacey had fawne over me or insisted she stay with me UNLESS I asked her to.

I was running last week pre-dawn with a friend and running partner.  We were on an 8 mile run.  I tripped and fell HARD.  I thought I had broken my arm (just a deep bruise, and a bruised ego).  My running partner immediately hovered around me and I said this: "Syd, I know you are trying to help but please just leave me alone for a second.  Run ahead and I'll catch up but I need some space right now."  And that is what we did.

I get not wanting to be fawned over - I'm the same way (unless it's my DH doing the fawning for some reason), but if you're physically unable to walk, I'm not leaving you no matter how much you want to be alone.

I also wouldn't leave someone who thought their arm was broken. 

I guess that would be irritating to some, but...safety trumps etiquette, and all that.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: audrey1962 on October 11, 2012, 01:20:34 PM
TurtleDove, it sounds like your situation is different than Kelly's. Weeblewobble said, "she didn't think she would have to [ask Stacy to stay] after saying she was in a lot of pain." You told your running partner to keep running, Kelly told her running partner, "I'm in a lot of pain." Kelly didn't tell her running partner to keep running, but that is what she did.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: TurtleDove on October 11, 2012, 01:20:54 PM
TurtleDove, Would you have felt irritated if she had just asked you, "Do you need help or should I run on?"

I think that asking that is a basic courtesy.  Now if they persisted after asking that and you had told them you needed no help, then I think they've gone too far.

Nope - I always ask someone who is hurt what they prefer and go with whatever they need.  I have ended several runs to help out a friend who needed it, and I have never abandoned someone who said they wanted me to stay.  I have also left running partners who asked me to go ahead when they weren't up for it.  I do what the other person prefers, and I always make sure the other person is okay. 

My initial point was that from the OP it was not clear what the conversation was, but I did not see that Kelly had asked Stacey to stay (and the OP confirmed that Kelly did NOT ask Stacey to stay).  Based on what was in the OP, my comment was that I don't know that the fact Stacey did not insist on staying with Kelly showed a lack of empathy.  I am not the only poster who prefers to handle bruised limbs (and egos) on my own. 

I completely agree the way Stacey handled it afterward is bad - I don't think that is defensible at all.  I just don't know that her initial failure to intuit what Kelly later decided she needed showed a lack of empathy.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: audrey1962 on October 11, 2012, 01:23:36 PM
TurtleDove, Would you have felt irritated if she had just asked you, "Do you need help or should I run on?"

I think that asking that is a basic courtesy.  Now if they persisted after asking that and you had told them you needed no help, then I think they've gone too far.

Nope - I always ask someone who is hurt what they prefer and go with whatever they need.  I have ended several runs to help out a friend who needed it, and I have never abandoned someone who said they wanted me to stay.  I have also left running partners who asked me to go ahead when they weren't up for it.  I do what the other person prefers, and I always make sure the other person is okay. 

And what if instead of answering you the other person said, "I don't know, I'm in a lot of pain."
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: TootsNYC on October 11, 2012, 01:24:10 PM
Well, I can come to the conclusion that Stacy has an appalling lack of empathy based on her behavior AFTERWARD.

She was *irritated* that the person who'd injured herself wasn't hanging around (an hour later) waiting after the run.

She was *angry* that Kelly is objecting to being left to fend for herself.

I don't need to know anything about the convo at the time of the injury.

And Stacy absolutely did not do what you do: "I always make sure the other person is okay."
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: TootsNYC on October 11, 2012, 01:25:08 PM
TurtleDove, Would you have felt irritated if she had just asked you, "Do you need help or should I run on?"

I think that asking that is a basic courtesy.  Now if they persisted after asking that and you had told them you needed no help, then I think they've gone too far.

Nope - I always ask someone who is hurt what they prefer and go with whatever they need.  I have ended several runs to help out a friend who needed it, and I have never abandoned someone who said they wanted me to stay.  I have also left running partners who asked me to go ahead when they weren't up for it.  I do what the other person prefers, and I always make sure the other person is okay. 

And what if instead of answering you the other person said, "I don't know, I'm in a lot of pain."

Based on her own words, I know what TurtleDove would do: She wait until the person DID know.

Her own preferences for HER injury are a total distraction. TurtleDove herself would do what Syd did, and what Stacy did NOT do.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: Amara on October 11, 2012, 01:34:28 PM
I am just appalled at this behavior, and if I were Kelly the cut direct would be immediate and permanent.

The park, as the OP indicated, doesn't feel safe unless the women are in a group. I suspect this means that rapes in addition to muggings have taken place. Therefore, there is NO reason in the world that an injured  partner should be left alone. None. Not only is the injured person left (in this case with a fractured ankle) to make her way back to her car but she is put at risk of great serious personal injury from a crime.

And when you fracture your ankle the injury is immediately obvious. The pain is strong and the ankle does swell immediately. There is no mistaking that.

To me, that Stacy's choice to leave Kelly alone would justify a cut-off. But then to have Stacy run on ahead and lie about Kelly's situation thoroughly unacceptable. And then she even continues to go on about it to others?

No. Just no. Friendship gone forever.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: TurtleDove on October 11, 2012, 01:41:33 PM

And what if instead of answering you the other person said, "I don't know, I'm in a lot of pain."

As I have repeatedly said, I personally would have done whatever the other person asked me to do, and yes I would have asked what I could do to best help them.

My point is not that Stacey handled this well - she didn't. My point was that, based on the initial post, it was not clear to me that Stacey was a horrible unempathetic boor for leaving Kelly - Kelly may have left her with the impression that it what Kelly wanted.  From the OP we did not learn that Kelly asked Stacey to stay and Stacey refused (and that is not what happened anyway, but I digress).  We didn't know what the conversation was, just that there was no mention that Kelly asked Stacey to stay.  As I have said, if I were Kelly, I would have wanted Stacey to run ahead.

Please don't make this about me being somehow Stacey or defending her actions.  That is not at all what I am doing as I think my posts make clear. 
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: TurtleDove on October 11, 2012, 01:43:04 PM
Well, I can come to the conclusion that Stacy has an appalling lack of empathy based on her behavior AFTERWARD.

She was *irritated* that the person who'd injured herself wasn't hanging around (an hour later) waiting after the run.

She was *angry* that Kelly is objecting to being left to fend for herself.

I don't need to know anything about the convo at the time of the injury.

And Stacy absolutely did not do what you do: "I always make sure the other person is okay."

I agree with this - my point, again, is that the act of not staying with someone who is injured is not per se a showing of a lack of empathy.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: TurtleDove on October 11, 2012, 01:44:02 PM
Based on her own words, I know what TurtleDove would do: She wait until the person DID know.

Her own preferences for HER injury are a total distraction. TurtleDove herself would do what Syd did, and what Stacy did NOT do.

Thank you.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: cicero on October 11, 2012, 01:45:29 PM
Sorry.  To clarify, Kelly didn't directly ask Stacy, please stay behind and help me.  My impression was she didn't think she would have to after saying she was in a lot of pain. Maybe that was her mistake assuming Stacy would take that as a cue to help.
I think (in hindsight, probably) that Kelly *should* have been explicit. Being a "stiff upper lip" gal myself, I could see myself in kelly's shoes and not *asking* or telling stacy for help.

If it were me? i would probably have waited until i could see Kelly was able to walk on her own and i think that when you are running in a group - then that is what you do. as others have pointed out - you do that when you see strangers in distress on a hike or run, so certainly when you are running with friends.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: Piratelvr1121 on October 11, 2012, 01:46:14 PM
Stacy would get the cut direct from me. I don't run anymore, but I did in high school, and many times our practice meant running in the neighborhoods near the school, or in the park.  We always ran together, no one was to leave another person behind, unless it was to get help. I'm sure Coach D would have given someone like Stacy a hard time if he'd found out they'd done that to a teammate.

I wouldn't want to be around Stacy again, as after this my trust in her would be totally shot, and trust is very important to me. It's not the fact that she left, it's what she did after she left that is the most appalling.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: cheyne on October 11, 2012, 01:47:25 PM
The sum total of Stacey's behavior was appalling, period, end of discussion.  Her friend Kelly of many years was injured enough that the swelling was immediate and Kelly was in pain.  So Stacey decides that being a Wannabee was more important than helping someone who has been her friend for years, lies about it to all and sundry and then hassles Kelly about it?  Really?  I can't see how anyone can justify this behavior.   

Kelly needs to temporarily cut Stacey out as of yesterday.  Kelly should take some time and think about the friendship.  Have there been other times that Stacey has acted in a self-centered way and hurt Kelly (thought probably not this severely).  I find it hard to believe that this is a "one off" situation.  If Kelly comes to realize that Stacey has been this way for a long time-she can make the cut permanent.  Kelly needs some space right now and should take her time making this decision.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: Piratelvr1121 on October 11, 2012, 01:49:52 PM
Barring any sort of personality changing disorders, something tells me this isn't the first time Stacy's done this, just the first time it's been so obvious.

Betcha a bunch of red flags will be waving in the rearview mirror of the Hindsightmobile.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: Lorelei_Evil on October 11, 2012, 01:51:58 PM
Based on her own words, I know what TurtleDove would do: She wait until the person DID know.

Her own preferences for HER injury are a total distraction. TurtleDove herself would do what Syd did, and what Stacy did NOT do.

Thank you.

I think you've been quite clear.  One of my responses is: "I'm not sure if I'm hurt, give me a minute to assess everything."  Again, communication.  It's something I had to learn so I could get help when I needed it regardless of the blow to my ego.

Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: Hmmmmm on October 11, 2012, 02:05:15 PM
TurtleDove, Would you have felt irritated if she had just asked you, "Do you need help or should I run on?"

I think that asking that is a basic courtesy.  Now if they persisted after asking that and you had told them you needed no help, then I think they've gone too far.

Nope - I always ask someone who is hurt what they prefer and go with whatever they need.  I have ended several runs to help out a friend who needed it, and I have never abandoned someone who said they wanted me to stay.  I have also left running partners who asked me to go ahead when they weren't up for it.  I do what the other person prefers, and I always make sure the other person is okay. 

My initial point was that from the OP it was not clear what the conversation was, but I did not see that Kelly had asked Stacey to stay (and the OP confirmed that Kelly did NOT ask Stacey to stay).  Based on what was in the OP, my comment was that I don't know that the fact Stacey did not insist on staying with Kelly showed a lack of empathy.  I am not the only poster who prefers to handle bruised limbs (and egos) on my own. 

I completely agree the way Stacey handled it afterward is bad - I don't think that is defensible at all.  I just don't know that her initial failure to intuit what Kelly later decided she needed showed a lack of empathy.

I think the big difference is the bolded.  You would have asked.  You would not wait for the injured to say "Please stay". 

In the OP, it is not clear to me that Kelly had the opportunity to even ask.  Stacey states "I'm going ahead, just go back to the car."  After stating that, should Kelly have said "No, you must stay with me?"  Honestly, I would have been so astounded by that reaction that I wouldn't have wanted to ask them for assistance. 

Stacey needs to learn that when we do sports with a companion it is not just for socializing, it is for safety.  I can not imagine any of the hikers, kyakers, or cyclist I used to go with ever leaving me behind unless I emphatically stated that I wanted them to go on.  Even then, they would have slowed their pace to make sure I eventually caught up with them. 

"No man left behind"

 
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: WillyNilly on October 11, 2012, 02:54:21 PM
I took up running for exercise a few years ago.  I was really shy about it.  I would run during off hours or purposely avoid eye contact if I was around others.  It took me a while to build up stamina.  Once I did though I was a bit more confident.  I signed up for a race.  I wasn't in it to win it, just to do my first 5k.  I was intimidated when I got there - everyone looked like a real runner; I felt like an imposter.

And then I started running.  Many passed me even though I started out towards the back, I passed a few.  But I kept going.  And as I ran I noticed runners off tot eh sides.  The first race was a big one - 30,000 people ran it that day.  And I passed twisted ankles, unidentifiable ailments, several pukers - and what struck me, what made me love running - was none of those people were alone.  Every person who pulled off to the sidelines had people stop to make sure they were ok.

Since then I've done lots of 5k's.  I did one this past weekend.  I didn't have time to warm up before hand and it wasn't a timed race.  So about 1/4 mile in I pulled off to the side to stretch.  2 people stopped running "you ok?"  I was, I smiled, I sent them off.  I have had total strangers on the street see me stop, and grasp a pole along the sidewalk as I stretch my calves, and they ask "are you ok?" - they don't see I'm stretching, just that I was running and now I stopped and am holding onto something.

I did a Warrior Dash (a 5k obstacle course) this summer.  There were inspirational signs along the route urging us on.  At least two said "leave no Warrior behind!"  At one obstacle my friend was scared.  It was a rope bridge over pointy rocks.  Her legs were jelly 2k and half a dozen obstacles in.  It was a timed race.  And still a guy behind her braced against the ropes to hold them taut for her.  She inched out.  She started nervously singing to herself "you're the best, around.."  Next thing the guy holding the ropes joined in "nothing is gonna ever keep you down" and then we realized a group of about 8 people were backed up to cross the two rope bridges and they all started singing, loudly "Fight till the end, 'Cause your life will depend, On the strength that you have inside you, Gotta be proud..."  She got across, and she and I both maybe had a little bit of something in our eyes...

I've never competed in team sports.  I liked running because it was just me, no one relying on me (I'm a clutz sometimes, especially under pressure).  Then I started really running and its a team sport of the best kind because every runner is on the same team, together. 

Stacy needs to learn that.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: Outdoor Girl on October 11, 2012, 03:00:51 PM
^  I seem to have a little something in my eye, too.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: snowdragon on October 11, 2012, 03:06:12 PM
mine too. What niece people
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: doodlemor on October 11, 2012, 03:11:25 PM
Stacy's behavior is thoroughly reprehensible.  How very just that she is the one telling people about the incident.  In complaining about Kelly she is letting everyone know exactly what kind of a person she herself is.

Kelly should give her the cut direct, probably forever.  It seems to me that someone whose thinking is that *off* is never going to understand how egregious her behavior was, and apparently still is.

I have done the training thing, and have also had a broken ankle twice.  Broken bones can make a person lightheaded and woozy.  No one should be left alone on the trail when they are injured, especially if there is the possibility of a broken bone.

The what if's in this case are scary. 

Kelly needs a lot of support and encouragement right now, aside from the whole nonsense with Stacy.  It is very depressing to be confined with a broken bone, especially if one has been very active.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: gypsy77 on October 11, 2012, 03:27:29 PM
Sorry.  To clarify, Kelly didn't directly ask Stacy, please stay behind and help me.  My impression was she didn't think she would have to after saying she was in a lot of pain. Maybe that was her mistake assuming Stacy would take that as a cue to help.

I think this boils down to how people would want to be treated.  If I were Kelly and were in a lot of pain, I would NOT have wanted Stacey around.  If I physically needed help getting to my car I would have asked for it.  I can see other personalities would react differently, but when I am injured I do NOT want people around me fawning over me, asking me if I need help, demanding to help me out, hovering over me, etc.  I just don't.

I would not have handled this how Stacey did, especially the aftermath, but I don't think it's a hard and fast rule that compassionate empathetic people would force themselves upon someone who does not want help.  If I were Kelly, it would have irritated me if Stacey had fawne over me or insisted she stay with me UNLESS I asked her to.

I was running last week pre-dawn with a friend and running partner.  We were on an 8 mile run.  I tripped and fell HARD.  I thought I had broken my arm (just a deep bruise, and a bruised ego).  My running partner immediately hovered around me and I said this: "Syd, I know you are trying to help but please just leave me alone for a second.  Run ahead and I'll catch up but I need some space right now."  And that is what we did.

I also think that Stacey's later behavior rules out that she was using that thought process. If she had, she would not have lied to the other runners, because she would have expected them to see it the same way. I also get the impression from Weeble, that had Stacey's later statements to Kelly been along the lines of "I didn't occur to me, because when I am sick/injured, I don't like having help", that Kelly would not be considering a cut direct.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: CrazyDaffodilLady on October 11, 2012, 03:36:48 PM
Quote
. . .it's not advisable for people to run alone.  The other women pulled ahead because Stacy was having trouble with the pace.  Kelly stayed with her.
The only reason Stacy wasn't running alone was because Kelly stayed with her out of kindness and concern for safety.  Stacy repaid this by abandoning Kelly when she was injured.  I can't imagine that Kelly, the cool girls, or anyone else would want Stacy as a running partner in the future. 

Without a huge admission of bad behavior and a grovelling apology from Stacy, her behavior would be a friendship breaker for me.  She's shown that she'll throw you under a bus for very petty reasons.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: still in va on October 11, 2012, 03:39:38 PM
Stacy continues to tell everybody who will listen that this wasn't her fault and Kelly has no right to be angry with her.  She's tried to brazen her way through Kelly being mad at her by just pretending that the incident never happened and Kelly isn't mad.  Kelly is having no part of it.   Stacy's even calling Eric to try to get him to "talk some sense" into Kelly. 

Kelly is considering a temporary cut direct, but is reluctant because they've been friends for years and this is the first time Stacy has done something like this. Other than ignoring Stacy's phone calls, is there any way Kelly can convince Stacy that she did something wrong and has damaged their friendship?

as to what i would do now, in Kelly's place, would be for Eric to tell Stacy, the next time she calls, that Stacy needs to leave Kelly alone until Kelly is ready to talk to her.  he can assure Stacy that Kelly will call when she is ready.  if Kelly is never "ready" to talk to Stacy, she will be adhering to what her husband told Stacy.  i'd also block Stacy's phone number and e-mail address, at least temporarily, until i was ready to talk to her.  badgering me will get you exactly the opposite results of what you are seeking.

personally, i'd not be ready for a good long time.  i suspect that Stacy is realllllly nervous here, and feeling very alone.  she's damaged her friendship with Kelly, and the two "cool kids" from the office are probably not including her anymore, now that she has shown them a side of her personality that they don't care for.  oh well. 

weeblewobble, i didn't see (or i forgot) how long ago this happened.  how long has this been going on?
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: Surianne on October 11, 2012, 03:40:54 PM
Sorry.  To clarify, Kelly didn't directly ask Stacy, please stay behind and help me.  My impression was she didn't think she would have to after saying she was in a lot of pain. Maybe that was her mistake assuming Stacy would take that as a cue to help.

I think this boils down to how people would want to be treated.  If I were Kelly and were in a lot of pain, I would NOT have wanted Stacey around.  If I physically needed help getting to my car I would have asked for it.  I can see other personalities would react differently, but when I am injured I do NOT want people around me fawning over me, asking me if I need help, demanding to help me out, hovering over me, etc.  I just don't.

I would not have handled this how Stacey did, especially the aftermath, but I don't think it's a hard and fast rule that compassionate empathetic people would force themselves upon someone who does not want help.  If I were Kelly, it would have irritated me if Stacey had fawne over me or insisted she stay with me UNLESS I asked her to.

Yes, that's where I'm coming from too.  I agree that Stacey wasn't correct here (at all), but I disagree with some of the statements in the thread about how caring, empathetic people would *always* stick around even if they weren't asked (or were asked not to) -- because to me personally, that would actually be something I'd dislike quite a bit. 
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: weeblewobble on October 11, 2012, 03:45:44 PM

I did a Warrior Dash (a 5k obstacle course) this summer.  There were inspirational signs along the route urging us on.  At least two said "leave no Warrior behind!"  At one obstacle my friend was scared.  It was a rope bridge over pointy rocks.  Her legs were jelly 2k and half a dozen obstacles in.  It was a timed race.  And still a guy behind her braced against the ropes to hold them taut for her.  She inched out.  She started nervously singing to herself "you're the best, around.."  Next thing the guy holding the ropes joined in "nothing is gonna ever keep you down" and then we realized a group of about 8 people were backed up to cross the two rope bridges and they all started singing, loudly "Fight till the end, 'Cause your life will depend, On the strength that you have inside you, Gotta be proud..."  She got across, and she and I both maybe had a little bit of something in our eyes...


I want that to be a Nike commercial.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: weeblewobble on October 11, 2012, 03:47:55 PM
Stacy continues to tell everybody who will listen that this wasn't her fault and Kelly has no right to be angry with her.  She's tried to brazen her way through Kelly being mad at her by just pretending that the incident never happened and Kelly isn't mad.  Kelly is having no part of it.   Stacy's even calling Eric to try to get him to "talk some sense" into Kelly. 

Kelly is considering a temporary cut direct, but is reluctant because they've been friends for years and this is the first time Stacy has done something like this. Other than ignoring Stacy's phone calls, is there any way Kelly can convince Stacy that she did something wrong and has damaged their friendship?

as to what i would do now, in Kelly's place, would be for Eric to tell Stacy, the next time she calls, that Stacy needs to leave Kelly alone until Kelly is ready to talk to her.  he can assure Stacy that Kelly will call when she is ready.  if Kelly is never "ready" to talk to Stacy, she will be adhering to what her husband told Stacy.  i'd also block Stacy's phone number and e-mail address, at least temporarily, until i was ready to talk to her.  badgering me will get you exactly the opposite results of what you are seeking.

personally, i'd not be ready for a good long time.  i suspect that Stacy is realllllly nervous here, and feeling very alone.  she's damaged her friendship with Kelly, and the two "cool kids" from the office are probably not including her anymore, now that she has shown them a side of her personality that they don't care for.  oh well. 

weeblewobble, i didn't see (or i forgot) how long ago this happened.  how long has this been going on?

Just a few days.  The incident was only last week.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: stargazer on October 11, 2012, 03:51:01 PM
I would absolutely stick around - you NEED your ankle to be able to walk.  I personally think everyone should, mainly because I know when I shattered my ankle, I was in complete shock and tried to walk on it again (which probably caused the third break in the middle).  If the ankle is swollen, I cannot imagine anyone "going on" regardless of what the injured person says (and it doesn't sound like Kelly asked her to go on in any case).   Stacey is a jerk for all her actions.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: Carpathia on October 11, 2012, 03:51:42 PM
I'm a runner too, and I do see what TurtleDove means - I would hate to have a running partner stop their run because I couldn't carry on UNLESS I was too injured to make it back under my own steam in which case I'd have to accept their help.

However, I know of absolutely nobody who would have run on in that particular situation unless Kelly herself had explicitly said 'I'm OK, go ahead'. I'm with the PPs who said that it's up to Stacy to make sure she has been given the go-ahead to carry on before leaving. I don't think that Stacy can assume she's good to go unless Kelly specifically asks her.

As for Stacy's behaviour afterwards - dreadful. If I had been in that situation I'd have tried to catch up with the others, explained what had happened and we'd probably have turned around and run back to make sure Kelly wasn't collapsed in agony. We'd still have got the 10 mile run, and we'd have set our minds at rest about a friend.

I would advise Kelly that she's not overreacting and that she can contact Stacy if and when she feels like it, maybe never. I'd certainly not consider it until Stacy stopped telling my friends and family that I needed to accept she did nothing wrong!
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: Harriet Jones on October 11, 2012, 03:53:26 PM
Even if leaving Kelly behind was an "honest mistake", Stacy's subsequent behavior is *appalling*.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: Mental Magpie on October 11, 2012, 03:54:51 PM
Sorry.  To clarify, Kelly didn't directly ask Stacy, please stay behind and help me.  My impression was she didn't think she would have to after saying she was in a lot of pain. Maybe that was her mistake assuming Stacy would take that as a cue to help.

I think this boils down to how people would want to be treated.  If I were Kelly and were in a lot of pain, I would NOT have wanted Stacey around.  If I physically needed help getting to my car I would have asked for it.  I can see other personalities would react differently, but when I am injured I do NOT want people around me fawning over me, asking me if I need help, demanding to help me out, hovering over me, etc.  I just don't.

I would not have handled this how Stacey did, especially the aftermath, but I don't think it's a hard and fast rule that compassionate empathetic people would force themselves upon someone who does not want help.  If I were Kelly, it would have irritated me if Stacey had fawne over me or insisted she stay with me UNLESS I asked her to.

Yes, that's where I'm coming from too.  I agree that Stacey wasn't correct here (at all), but I disagree with some of the statements in the thread about how caring, empathetic people would *always* stick around even if they weren't asked (or were asked not to) -- because to me personally, that would actually be something I'd dislike quite a bit.

I don't think it's because we think Stacy should have stuck around no matter what, it's that she apparently did even ask if she should!  Sure, Kelly didn't say, "Stay!", but Stacy didn't ask if she should stay, and that's what a lot of us are having a problem with.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: weeblewobble on October 11, 2012, 03:55:44 PM
Sorry.  To clarify, Kelly didn't directly ask Stacy, please stay behind and help me.  My impression was she didn't think she would have to after saying she was in a lot of pain. Maybe that was her mistake assuming Stacy would take that as a cue to help.

I think this boils down to how people would want to be treated.  If I were Kelly and were in a lot of pain, I would NOT have wanted Stacey around.  If I physically needed help getting to my car I would have asked for it.  I can see other personalities would react differently, but when I am injured I do NOT want people around me fawning over me, asking me if I need help, demanding to help me out, hovering over me, etc.  I just don't.

I would not have handled this how Stacey did, especially the aftermath, but I don't think it's a hard and fast rule that compassionate empathetic people would force themselves upon someone who does not want help.  If I were Kelly, it would have irritated me if Stacey had fawne over me or insisted she stay with me UNLESS I asked her to.

I was running last week pre-dawn with a friend and running partner.  We were on an 8 mile run.  I tripped and fell HARD.  I thought I had broken my arm (just a deep bruise, and a bruised ego).  My running partner immediately hovered around me and I said this: "Syd, I know you are trying to help but please just leave me alone for a second.  Run ahead and I'll catch up but I need some space right now."  And that is what we did.

I also think that Stacey's later behavior rules out that she was using that thought process. If she had, she would not have lied to the other runners, because she would have expected them to see it the same way. I also get the impression from Weeble, that had Stacey's later statements to Kelly been along the lines of "I didn't occur to me, because when I am sick/injured, I don't like having help", that Kelly would not be considering a cut direct.

Yes, the impression I got was that Kelly was far more hurt by Stacy's post-run behavior than just the "leaving her alone" bit.  Her later actions seem more along the lines of, "How dare you complain about me.  My actions are justified no matter what you say." instead of "Wow, I was unaware the situation was so serious." 

Like I said, the other ladies seemed really appalled by her actions, so I doubt her intention to get in good with the "cool girls" worked out like she hoped.  I will update if I hear any more. 
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: Surianne on October 11, 2012, 03:59:58 PM
I don't think it's because we think Stacy should have stuck around no matter what, it's that she apparently did even ask if she should!  Sure, Kelly didn't say, "Stay!", but Stacy didn't ask if she should stay, and that's what a lot of us are having a problem with.

I can definitely see what you mean there and I don't find that point of view unreasonable at all.  There were a few posters (I don't think you were one) who had implied that the only kind thing to do would be to stick around no matter what, even if Kelly didn't ask for help, and even if she said to go on without her.  That's where I really disagree.  So it's more a hypothetical than based on the OP's specific situation.

(I hope that made sense...I'm running to a meeting or I would quote people specifically and explain myself a little more clearly!)
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: Carpathia on October 11, 2012, 04:04:56 PM
Yeah, if I'd been one of the other ladies, and Stacy had caught up and said that Kelly just wasn't feeling up for it today and had gone back, and I'd then subsequently discovered that actually Stacy had left her injured (whether or not Kelly had told her to go on, I would have been shocked at the lie) I would really be questioning any further contact with that person.

I wonder if Stacy thought that if she told the other two Kelly was hurt but OK, they'd have insisted on going back for her anyway and Kelly would then get the attention and sympathy of the two women Stacy desperately wanted for herself.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: Mental Magpie on October 11, 2012, 04:06:17 PM
I don't think it's because we think Stacy should have stuck around no matter what, it's that she apparently did even ask if she should!  Sure, Kelly didn't say, "Stay!", but Stacy didn't ask if she should stay, and that's what a lot of us are having a problem with.

I can definitely see what you mean there and I don't find that point of view unreasonable at all.  There were a few posters (I don't think you were one) who had implied that the only kind thing to do would be to stick around no matter what, even if Kelly didn't ask for help, and even if she said to go on without her.  That's where I really disagree.  So it's more a hypothetical than based on the OP's specific situation.

(I hope that made sense...I'm running to a meeting or I would quote people specifically and explain myself a little more clearly!)

It makes sense, and I agree.  I would be really upset if someone insisted on sticking around after I explicitly told them to leave.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: TootsNYC on October 11, 2012, 04:23:53 PM
Stacy's behavior is thoroughly reprehensible.  How very just that she is the one telling people about the incident.  In complaining about Kelly she is letting everyone know exactly what kind of a person she herself is.


Yeah!
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: O'Dell on October 11, 2012, 04:37:46 PM
I don't think it's because we think Stacy should have stuck around no matter what, it's that she apparently did even ask if she should!  Sure, Kelly didn't say, "Stay!", but Stacy didn't ask if she should stay, and that's what a lot of us are having a problem with.

I can definitely see what you mean there and I don't find that point of view unreasonable at all.  There were a few posters (I don't think you were one) who had implied that the only kind thing to do would be to stick around no matter what, even if Kelly didn't ask for help, and even if she said to go on without her.  That's where I really disagree.  So it's more a hypothetical than based on the OP's specific situation.

(I hope that made sense...I'm running to a meeting or I would quote people specifically and explain myself a little more clearly!)

It makes sense, and I agree.  I would be really upset if someone insisted on sticking around after I explicitly told them to leave.

There are times though when the injured person isn't the best judge of what help they need and a bystander should insist on staying. Not always, but certainly if someone were seriously injured, such as Kelly who was unable to walk back to her car under her own power, someone should have stayed to help her.

Others have said that they dont' want help. I'm like that. In the first few minutes after an injury, I instinctively brush off any assistance. So on a gut level, I get where you are coming from. But I also *know* that a blanket statement of not helping someone if they insist you go ahead and leave can be a dangerous one.

I think Stacy knows darn good and well that she was in the wrong and seriously messed up. Shame is what is pushing her to be so vocal in justifying her unjustifiable behavior. I suspect she badly wants someone to comfort her. Others just aren't buying it. Her leaving was one thing...it could have been a momentary lapse of judgment and many could forgive it. It's her immature reaction to having made a mistake that reflects so very badly on her.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: Darcy on October 11, 2012, 04:38:23 PM
Stacy's digging her own grave. Kelly may not have to do cut direct for herself anyway - most people are going to find it reprehensible that Stacy abandoned an injured friend, and will probably ice her out.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: 2doglady on October 11, 2012, 04:47:14 PM
I can understand that some people would want to be left alone and send Stacy on her way.  My concern would be that shock could set in and more complications could arise.  I didn't see any post mentioning shock so I thought I would bring it up.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: Thipu1 on October 11, 2012, 05:10:17 PM
What Stacy did was completely wrong on so many levels. 

Kelly was the better runner and slowed her pace to be with Stacy.  When Kelly got injured, Stacy just said, 'See ya back at the cars'.

I'm sorry but you just don't do this. 

Back in the 1970s I was part of a club that gave lessons in race-walking.  We trainers were competing on at least a state level.  Some of us were national class but everyone with whom we worked was a member of the group and were considered as such. We had a rule that no one was to be left behind no matter how slow that person was.  It wasn't unusual for someone who placed third in the National 20K championships to stay behind with someone who was doing his first mile. 

This isn't a question of etiquette.  As others have said, it's a question of common humanity. 

Stacy erred in so many ways.  Kelly was helping her but she abandoned someone who was not only
a running companion but a friend when Kelly became injured.  Stacy made no attempt to get help but just ran off.  She later lied about the incident and thought Kelly was the one who should apologize.

Excuse me, but Stacy is not someone whom I would ever trust in any way again. Her behavior was execrable.     

Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: Allyson on October 11, 2012, 07:38:07 PM
I'm a huge underreacter. Particularly when it comes to my own injuries and illnesses, but also sometimes when it comes to other people's. I could see Stacy's original actions as not being reprehensible. Not morally awesome, but morally neutral, or mistaken. I could see me thinking 'oh, she twisted her ankle, no big deal'. It wouldn't be the right call, but it could be unmalicious and her thinking 'well, if I had done that I'd want my friend to go on, I don't like having people around me when I'm hurt...' To someone like me 'I'm in a lot of pain' does not necessarily mean 'Please stay with me.'

But, Stacy's actions afterwards? No, just no. If it were me who had made that mistake, I would be falling all over myself apologizing. I sure would not be minimizing it!
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: Yankeegal77 on October 11, 2012, 07:51:07 PM
I think Kelly should look at this as a blessing in disguise to see her "friend"'s character.

Completely, utterly unacceptable. Competitive training or not, effective workout or not, leaving a friend in pain, with a swollen ankle in a wooded area where *muggings* occur and it isn't safe is a violation of just about every ethic I hold dear.

And sorry to those who have said they can understand Stacy's motivation--Stacy was there to hang out with the "cool kids."

As far as I can see, the list of abominably rude behavior is as follows:

1. Essentially using Kelly to hang out with the other two women
2. Growing more distant from Kelly despite the premise of wanting to share in her sport
3. LEAVING HER BEHIND IN A DANGEROUS AREA WHILE INJURED
4. Lying about number four
5. What I see as harassment--asking Eric to "talk sense" into Kelly
6. Besmirching Kelly's reputation with her "side" of the story

No matter how long the friendship, Kelly is within her rights to say good riddance to bad rubbish.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: artk2002 on October 11, 2012, 08:28:38 PM
Kelly failing to say some particular magic phrase doesn't let Stacy off of the hook.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: KenveeB on October 11, 2012, 08:59:28 PM
Yes, that's where I'm coming from too.  I agree that Stacey wasn't correct here (at all), but I disagree with some of the statements in the thread about how caring, empathetic people would *always* stick around even if they weren't asked (or were asked not to) -- because to me personally, that would actually be something I'd dislike quite a bit.

Most of the statements I've seen have been that any caring, empathetic, decent human being would stay being until they know the other person is okay or specifically told to go ahead. Once the person says, "I'm fine, run on ahead," then you're clear. Until then, a decent person would stick around.

A person's thought processes can be shown through their later actions. If Stacey had really thought "she's not really hurt" or "she wouldn't want me to stay," then she would have actually said that later instead of lying to the other two women about what happened and daring to be mad at Kelly for not waiting at the cars. So the rest of the discussion is really academic -- maybe there are situations where it would be okay, or at least an understandable mistake, but it definitely wasn't here. Kelly needs to give Stacey the cut direct, and I think she'll be better off for it!
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: LifeOnPluto on October 11, 2012, 09:31:26 PM
Slightly off-topic, but why did Stacy "need" Kelly to get closer to the two other women? Why couldn't Stacy have just made friends with them herself, without involving Kelly?

Back on topic, I agree with the majority that Stacy should ideally have stuck around to make sure Kelly was safe. At the very least, she should NOT be telling lies about Kelly and asking her to apologise!

As for how Kelly should proceed, it depends. If this was very out-of-character for Stacy, I'd sit her down and say "What's going on? We've been friends for a long time. I know this isn't like you."
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: Mental Magpie on October 11, 2012, 09:59:05 PM
Slightly off-topic, but why did Stacy "need" Kelly to get closer to the two other women? Why couldn't Stacy have just made friends with them herself, without involving Kelly?

Back on topic, I agree with the majority that Stacy should ideally have stuck around to make sure Kelly was safe. At the very least, she should NOT be telling lies about Kelly and asking her to apologise!

As for how Kelly should proceed, it depends. If this was very out-of-character for Stacy, I'd sit her down and say "What's going on? We've been friends for a long time. I know this isn't like you."

I'm going to guess it is because Kelly is a stronger runner than Stacy.  Stacy's lack of ability was made up by Kelly's ability in running because Stacy knew she wasn't quite on par with the other woman but that Kelly was and thus could get Stacy in with them.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: Harriet Jones on October 11, 2012, 10:01:03 PM
Sounds like Stacy needed Kelly for training purposes, or maybe as a way to get it with the "cool kids" without seeming too desperate.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: greencat on October 11, 2012, 10:11:01 PM
Although some here have said that they would tell, and in some cases, have told, their running partner to leave them, despite a possible injury, how many would actually do that 5 miles out on a trail that isn't safe to be on alone?  Besides the fact that you'd be left by yourself, you would also be letting your running partner go on alone.

How many of you would actually leave a running partner behind in that situation?  I'd back off trying to actively help my partner, but stay close by.  My friend could tell me to ditch him/her all they wanted, but given the safety risk to both of us in that situation, I couldn't be made to do that.

Stacey's behavior when she left Kelly was reprehensible, even without considering the way she acted afterward, which eliminated all chances that she could blame an astonishing lack of safety awareness.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: snowdragon on October 11, 2012, 10:12:56 PM
You have a great point, the only way i would do that is to go get real help. But I would prefer to find away to get us both out together.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: Slartibartfast on October 11, 2012, 10:27:43 PM
Even if leaving Kelly behind was an "honest mistake", Stacy's subsequent behavior is *appalling*.

This.  Honestly, I don't care whether or not Kelly asked Stacy to stay - Stacy knew Kelly was injured, went on ahead, and then lied and told the only two other people who knew she was there that she had gotten tired and turned around to go home.  So if something had happened to Kelly - got lost, got mugged, turned out to be too injured to get to the car, fell off a cliff, got attacked by a wild animal, whatever - the only people who would have known to look for her thought she had already left.  (Well, plus Stacy, who clearly didn't want to be bothered caring.)  This is a disaster waiting to happen, even in an only moderately dangerous/remote area!
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: doodlemor on October 11, 2012, 11:27:51 PM
Slarti wrote.......

So if something had happened to Kelly - got lost, got mugged, turned out to be too injured to get to the car, fell off a cliff, got attacked by a wild animal, whatever - the only people who would have known to look for her thought she had already left.

The "what if's" in this incident continue to bother me.  What if the park crew hadn't found her, or Slarti's scenarios had happened.  What if Kelly had gone into shock?  I bet that Stacy didn't wait to see whether Kelly was steady on her feet before she loped away, either.

A young mother was murdered while jogging during the daytime near Buffalo, NY a few years ago, on Sept. 29.  That this happened so recently in our neck of the woods makes the possibility that Kelly could have been a crime victim very real to me.  This guy hurt women for years before he was finally caught.

Stacy's behavior was incredibly callous and deceitful.  I suspect that she knew that it was wrong of her to leave Kelly, because she made up the lie.  I wonder how many other things she has been untruthful about.  I imagine that the office "cool girls" gasped when they found out the truth. 

I POD the person way back in the posts who said that if Kelly starts thinking back she will probably remember some other instances of selfishness.  I don't think that Stacy deserves another chance.  The cut direct is very appropriate here.



If anyone is interested, here is a link about the man who committed the crimes near Buffalo.  It is very sad reading.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altemio_Sanchez
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: greencat on October 11, 2012, 11:57:13 PM
There's a similar rapist/killer working the big city where I live - and they haven't caught him yet.  Or them - there's a lot dissent on whether or not the rapist and the serial killer are the same person.  There's a lovely running trail less than a mile from my house, and people only use the first mile of it, which is in a heavily traveled park - the actual trail goes for more than 5 miles and connects to another park, but it's through a semi-wooded area that several neighborhoods back up to, and I'm hesitant to use it even with another female companion - it's kind of "take a guy or a group or don't go out there."
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: Piratelvr1121 on October 12, 2012, 06:01:11 AM
I agree, considering the area in which they were running, even if a friend said "Go on" I'd say "I'd rather we stick together, actually, since this isn't a safe area to be alone in." or something to that effect.  Also, that way it's not me sticking around insisting on helping them due to injury, if they don't want that,  it's just using the good ol' buddy system.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: Rohanna on October 12, 2012, 06:52:35 AM
Whats the point of the buddy system if you don't use it when something happens?
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: Roe on October 12, 2012, 07:25:23 AM
Whats the point of the buddy system if you don't use it when something happens?

Exactly!

The fact that Kelly stayed with Stacey in order to use the buddy system, tells me that Kelly didn't want to be left alone.  She didn't leave Stacey, Stacey shouldn't have left Kelly.  Doesn't matter what Kelly said or didn't say.  That's the end.of.the.story for me. 
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: lowspark on October 12, 2012, 08:05:49 AM
This quote from the OP keeps coming back to me:

Kelly had a missed step about five miles into the ten mile run and severely injured her ankle.  It immediately started to swell and she was in a lot of pain.

and

Kelly tried to hobble back to her car but it hurt too much to walk.

So Kelly was clearly not standing steadily on both of her feet. She was either somehow leaning against something to support herself or she was down on the ground, not standing at all.

I simply can't imagine that Stacy saw this and had no problem running off and leaving Kelly in this state.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: still in va on October 12, 2012, 08:26:01 AM
This quote from the OP keeps coming back to me:

Kelly had a missed step about five miles into the ten mile run and severely injured her ankle.  It immediately started to swell and she was in a lot of pain.

and

Kelly tried to hobble back to her car but it hurt too much to walk.

So Kelly was clearly not standing steadily on both of her feet. She was either somehow leaning against something to support herself or she was down on the ground, not standing at all.

I simply can't imagine that Stacy saw this and had no problem running off and leaving Kelly in this state.

unfortunately, based on the way Stacy has been acting since the incident, i'm not having any problem imagining exactly this. 

she knew Kelly was hurt when she ran off.  she has since found out that the injury was severe enough to require an ER visit, and that it is a bone fracture.  that was her last chance to accept responsibility and sincerely apologize to Kelly.  she blew it. 
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: lowspark on October 12, 2012, 08:33:37 AM
This quote from the OP keeps coming back to me:

Kelly had a missed step about five miles into the ten mile run and severely injured her ankle.  It immediately started to swell and she was in a lot of pain.

and

Kelly tried to hobble back to her car but it hurt too much to walk.

So Kelly was clearly not standing steadily on both of her feet. She was either somehow leaning against something to support herself or she was down on the ground, not standing at all.

I simply can't imagine that Stacy saw this and had no problem running off and leaving Kelly in this state.

unfortunately, based on the way Stacy has been acting since the incident, i'm not having any problem imagining exactly this. 

she knew Kelly was hurt when she ran off.  she has since found out that the injury was severe enough to require an ER visit, and that it is a bone fracture.  that was her last chance to accept responsibility and sincerely apologize to Kelly.  she blew it.

Right you are. Correction below:

I simply can't imagine that Stacy a reasonable person whom I'd want to remain friends with saw this and had no problem running off and leaving Kelly in this state.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: EmmaJ. on October 12, 2012, 09:05:36 AM
I was with a friend once doing a strenuous hike.  I got hurt, and was bleeding and terrifed as it was right near my eye.

My friend said "I'll be right back" and she ran off.  I thought she was going for help.  It took me a few minutes to realize she was finishing her climb.

I'm still civil with her because we work together.  But have my feelings towards her changed?  Oh yes.  Very much so.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: bloo on October 12, 2012, 09:29:03 AM
I was with a friend once doing a strenuous hike.  I got hurt, and was bleeding and terrifed as it was right near my eye.

My friend said "I'll be right back" and she ran off.  I thought she was going for help.  It took me a few minutes to realize she was finishing her climb.

I'm still civil with her because we work together.  But have my feelings towards her changed?  Oh yes.  Very much so.

Is your friend's name 'Stacy'*?

(snark off)

Sorry about your (ex) friend and totally understandable that it would change your feelings towards her!

*I know, I know...'Stacy' is probably not the real name in the OP.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: SpottedPony on October 12, 2012, 09:42:00 AM
For those who would wave off any help because they don't like being fawned or fussed over, if you were injured in such a way that you couldn't or could barely walk, you'd prefer to hobble or crawl the five miles through a known to be unsafe alone area just to avoid the help?

Spotted Pony
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: TurtleDove on October 12, 2012, 09:57:35 AM
For those who would wave off any help because they don't like being fawned or fussed over, if you were injured in such a way that you couldn't or could barely walk, you'd prefer to hobble or crawl the five miles through a known to be unsafe alone area just to avoid the help?

Spotted Pony

If I wanted help, I would ask for it.  Generally speaking, when I am hurt, I want to be alone.  And I certainly would not want to inconvenience someone else.  It would make me feel uncomfortable.  I am a very independent person and I like it that way.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: GrammarNerd on October 12, 2012, 10:13:25 AM
When I was 16, we were at a party at my Aunt and Uncle's house.  I took my roller skates and was skating on the sidewalk in front of the house while everyone else except a 14-15 year old cousin was in the back yard.  I fell while going backwards and really hurt my wrist when I landed.  I moved to the grass and laid down because I immediately felt nauseaus.  Cousin saw the whole thing.  She asked me, "Are you okay?" as I'm lying down on the grass, trying to deep breathe and am holding my arm gingerly.  I said something like, 'no, I don't think so' in between deep breaths.  It was obvious I was in pain. 

And then while I'm trying to get past the pain and not hurl from the nausea, Cousin says cheerily, 'Okay.  Well, if you need anything, I'll be in the back yard.'  And she left me!

Now, mind you, I was on roller skates.  They roll and I'd just hurt my arm but good in that nasty fall and didn't even want to try to use that arm.  The wrist was already swelling, these really two weird-looking bumps that looked like there was a pencil under my skin and was pushing outward.  Luckily, somehow I made it to the back yard in my skates without causing further damage to myself to find that cousin hadn't even told anyone that I'd fallen and was hurt!

As irony would have it, Cousin's mother was a nurse and splinted my arm with a few rolled up magazines.  I went to the ER and sure enough, I had a hairline fracture of one of the main arm bones right at the tip. 

I think I did say something to Cousin later, in a joking type of way, about her leaving me.  She got jokingly indignant.  I don't exactly remember her rationale...she was a kid or didn't think it was that bad or something.  But still, I'd SAID that I wasn't okay.  Duh.  At least go get help!  It ain't rocket science.

It's obvious now that Stacy was only using Kelly to get in good with the cool girls.  And even though Kelly had nicely stayed behind with her when SHE (Stacy) was the problem and couldn't keep up, Stacy showed her true colors when she could only think about catching up with the other two women, LIED to them, and then tried to justify any of her actions by bad-mouthing Kelly and her injury.

I would say a cut-direct would be a generously nice treatment of Stacy at this point.  Why would Kelly want to hang around with someone who couldn't even show a modicum of concern for her for what was obviously a serious injury?

OP, do you know if the 'cool girls' said anything to Stacy or are still hanging out with her?  And please tell me that Kelly's husband laid into Stacy really good for her callousness.

I don't think some public shunning would be out of line here.  Stacy's behavior, given the circumstances and situation, were simply reprehensible.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: TurtleDove on October 12, 2012, 10:27:32 AM
Why would Kelly want to hang around with someone who couldn't even show a modicum of concern for her for what was obviously a serious injury?

I am in no way defending Stacey or your cousin.  I do want to point out that I don't think one can say the bolded necessarily.  Not even Kelly knew this was obviously a serious injury at that time.  Stacey should have handled it differently, but I do not see that she actively knew that Kelly was seriously injured and left.  She should have waited to find out, but I don't think it's fair to assume she thought, "Wow, Kelly is really hurt!  I'm going to leave."  She probably thought, "Kelly fell but it doesn't seem like a big deal - I'm going to keep going - she didn't say anything asking me not to."

As I think about this, I can't think of a time when I was a the weaker runner in recent history, but I would not have wanted Kelly to stay back with me if I were Stacey either.  I just don't like to inconvenience other people like that.  And yes, even in a "bad neighborhood."  (Although, again, if it was that bad, I wouldn't be running there even with a partner).
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: GrammarNerd on October 12, 2012, 10:46:23 AM
Why would Kelly want to hang around with someone who couldn't even show a modicum of concern for her for what was obviously a serious injury?

I am in no way defending Stacey or your cousin.  I do want to point out that I don't think one can say the bolded necessarily.  Not even Kelly knew this was obviously a serious injury at that time.  Stacey should have handled it differently, but I do not see that she actively knew that Kelly was seriously injured and left.  She should have waited to find out, but I don't think it's fair to assume she thought, "Wow, Kelly is really hurt!  I'm going to leave."  She probably thought, "Kelly fell but it doesn't seem like a big deal - I'm going to keep going - she didn't say anything asking me not to."

As I think about this, I can't think of a time when I was a the weaker runner in recent history, but I would not have wanted Kelly to stay back with me if I were Stacey either.  I just don't like to inconvenience other people like that.  And yes, even in a "bad neighborhood."  (Although, again, if it was that bad, I wouldn't be running there even with a partner).

To clarify my point: OP said the ankle/foot was swelling.  In my personal experience, if something swells that quickly, there is something wrong.  Seriously wrong.  I rolled my ankle somewhat recently.  The swelling started almost immediately.  I didn't break any bones, but I did tear a ligament.  My wrist was the same way.  Perhaps not everyone's serious injuries swell, but Kelly's did.  So that was a very blatant indication that all was not right.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: stargazer on October 12, 2012, 10:48:15 AM
Why would Kelly want to hang around with someone who couldn't even show a modicum of concern for her for what was obviously a serious injury?

I am in no way defending Stacey or your cousin.  I do want to point out that I don't think one can say the bolded necessarily.  Not even Kelly knew this was obviously a serious injury at that time.  Stacey should have handled it differently, but I do not see that she actively knew that Kelly was seriously injured and left.  She should have waited to find out, but I don't think it's fair to assume she thought, "Wow, Kelly is really hurt!  I'm going to leave."  She probably thought, "Kelly fell but it doesn't seem like a big deal - I'm going to keep going - she didn't say anything asking me not to."

As I think about this, I can't think of a time when I was a the weaker runner in recent history, but I would not have wanted Kelly to stay back with me if I were Stacey either.  I just don't like to inconvenience other people like that.  And yes, even in a "bad neighborhood."  (Although, again, if it was that bad, I wouldn't be running there even with a partner).

To clarify my point: OP said the ankle/foot was swelling.  In my personal experience, if something swells that quickly, there is something wrong.  Seriously wrong.  I rolled my ankle somewhat recently.  The swelling started almost immediately.  I didn't break any bones, but I did tear a ligament.  My wrist was the same way.  Perhaps not everyone's serious injuries swell, but Kelly's did.  So that was a very blatant indication that all was not right.

The OP also said: Sorry.  To clarify, Kelly didn't directly ask Stacy, please stay behind and help me.  My impression was she didn't think she would have to after saying she was in a lot of pain. Maybe that was her mistake assuming Stacy would take that as a cue to help.   So I would consider that a serious injury if someone I knew said they were in a lot of pain. 
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: Mental Magpie on October 12, 2012, 10:50:31 AM
For those who would wave off any help because they don't like being fawned or fussed over, if you were injured in such a way that you couldn't or could barely walk, you'd prefer to hobble or crawl the five miles through a known to be unsafe alone area just to avoid the help?

Spotted Pony

No, I would ask for help.  Just because I don't like people fawning over me doesn't mean I'm irrational and can't assess the seriousness of a situation in order to ask for help.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: TurtleDove on October 12, 2012, 10:52:24 AM
To clarify my point: OP said the ankle/foot was swelling.  In my personal experience, if something swells that quickly, there is something wrong.  Seriously wrong.  I rolled my ankle somewhat recently.  The swelling started almost immediately.  I didn't break any bones, but I did tear a ligament.  My wrist was the same way.  Perhaps not everyone's serious injuries swell, but Kelly's did.  So that was a very blatant indication that all was not right.

I think experiences can differ.  I do a lot of races, including Tough Mudder type obstacle ones.  This summer I did a 10K obstacle race on a team of 6.  About halfway through, a woman on my team came over a wall and landed funny.  I happened to turn and see she was not getting up so I shouted to the team to wait up and ran back to get her.  We all waited while her ankle swelled, but she walked on it a bit and decided to keep going.  We all crossed the finish line together, and her swollen ankle was sore but not a serious injury (at least not in her opinion).  I'm just saying people and experiences do differ and what is "obvious" to some is not obvious to others.  Also, some people are far more cautious than others.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: stargazer on October 12, 2012, 11:03:48 AM
To clarify my point: OP said the ankle/foot was swelling.  In my personal experience, if something swells that quickly, there is something wrong.  Seriously wrong.  I rolled my ankle somewhat recently.  The swelling started almost immediately.  I didn't break any bones, but I did tear a ligament.  My wrist was the same way.  Perhaps not everyone's serious injuries swell, but Kelly's did.  So that was a very blatant indication that all was not right.

I think experiences can differ.  I do a lot of races, including Tough Mudder type obstacle ones.  This summer I did a 10K obstacle race on a team of 6.  About halfway through, a woman on my team came over a wall and landed funny.  I happened to turn and see she was not getting up so I shouted to the team to wait up and ran back to get her.  We all waited while her ankle swelled, but she walked on it a bit and decided to keep going.  We all crossed the finish line together, and her swollen ankle was sore but not a serious injury (at least not in her opinion).  I'm just saying people and experiences do differ and what is "obvious" to some is not obvious to others.  Also, some people are far more cautious than others.

Again, Kelly SAID she was in a lot of pain and she was not able to walk.  Per the original OP:  Eric's wife, Kelly, is not a drama queen.  She doesn't play up illnesses or injuries.  When she says she's hurt, she's hurt.    So I would assume Stacey, being a supposed friend, would also know that. 
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: TheaterDiva1 on October 12, 2012, 11:53:08 AM
She probably thought, "Kelly fell but it doesn't seem like a big deal - I'm going to keep going - she didn't say anything asking me not to."

Then why didn't she say so after?  If she really thought Kelly wasn't that badly hurt and found out later how bad it was, the appropriate reaction is "I'm so sorry... I honestly didn't realize you were hurt that bad.  Is there anything I can do you you?"  Then it would be chalked up to momentary cluelessness and be done with.  By deliberately lying and justifying herself after the fact, Stacy knew she was in the wrong and didn't care.

And those of you saying they'd leave if someone said they were okay - don't be so sure.  Trauma is usually followed by an adrenaline rush where the person feels no pain, but it wears off.  Often, for example, someone will walk away from a car accident thinking they're fine only to experience neck pain hours later - they had whiplash and needed to be checked out, but they didn't know.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: Mental Magpie on October 12, 2012, 11:56:04 AM
She probably thought, "Kelly fell but it doesn't seem like a big deal - I'm going to keep going - she didn't say anything asking me not to."

Then why didn't she say so after?  If she really thought Kelly wasn't that badly hurt and found out later how bad it was, the appropriate reaction is "I'm so sorry... I honestly didn't realize you were hurt that bad.  Is there anything I can do you you?"  Then it would be chalked up to momentary cluelessness and be done with.  By deliberately lying and justifying herself after the fact, Stacy knew she was in the wrong and didn't care.

And those of you saying they'd leave if someone said they were okay - don't be so sure.  Trauma is usually followed by an adrenaline rush where the person feels no pain, but it wears off.  Often, for example, someone will walk away from a car accident thinking they're fine only to experience neck pain hours later - they had whiplash and needed to be checked out, but they didn't know.

My guess is Stacy didn't say so later because she knew she was wrong and didn't want to be caught having been wrong, so she lied.  Simple as that: she wanted to look good in front of the cool kids.

For those of us saying we'd leave if someone said they were okay, please don't think we're naive and can't ever recognize true trauma.  We're talking about sprained ankles here, not car wrecks.  If I saw a bone sticking out of someone's leg and she told me to keep going, I wouldn't; I'm not completely unaware of severe injury.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: bloo on October 12, 2012, 12:14:49 PM
This seems to be the major concern for the OP and Kelly:

"Kelly is considering a temporary cut direct, but is reluctant because they've been friends for years and this is the first time Stacy has done something like this. Other than ignoring Stacy's phone calls, is there any way Kelly can convince Stacy that she did something wrong and has damaged their friendship?"

From what I've read in the thread, all pp's seem to be in agreement about Kelly's subsequent behavior - namely that it stinks and continues to be pretty stinky.

Many (not all) seem to be in favor of cut-direct or temporary cut. Many do not seem to think there is going to be reasonableness on Stacy's part.

I would agree with the majority concensus. Cut direct or partial. Don't bother reasoning. I don't know how to make a self-centered person less self-centered so I'm no help there.

Will be waiting interestedly for updates from Weeble on how this all plays out.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: Wordgeek on October 12, 2012, 12:21:26 PM
This is a very interesting thread, with lots of good places for discussion to go.  At the moment, it's going in circles a bit, so I'm closing it temporarily in order to allow people to catch up on the reading.

I'll reopen it in a few hours.

ETA reopened.  Stay on topic.  Happy posting!

(...any updates, OP?)
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: Iris on October 12, 2012, 04:26:16 PM
I'm curious for updates, too. I think this is something that is going to have serious ongoing effects. At the very least I think that Stacy has blown her chances with the 'cool kids'.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: weeblewobble on October 12, 2012, 04:35:20 PM
No updates yet, and there might not be for a few days until DH talks to Eric again.  Just wanted to warn you. :)
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: Thipu1 on October 12, 2012, 05:05:50 PM
Thank you for the temporary shut-down of this thread.  There's so much going on here that people need time to think. 

I have no doubt that the OP is sincere and does not know the entire story.  However, as someone who has been a competitive athlete,  an amateur trainer and the writer of interactive mysteries, I have a few problems with timing. 

1). The workout is said to be a ten mile run.

2) The other two ladies are said to set a fast pace.

3). Kelly stays behind to run with Stacy.

4) Five miles into the ten mile workout, Kelly is quite seriously injured.

5). Stacy takes off and says that she and the others will meet Kelly back at the cars in 'about an hour'.

Here are the problems I find in the story.

1) Stacy expects to catch up with the 'Cool Girls' and finish the workout with them. 

2) If Stacy can catch up with the others and it will take them an hour to cover the last 5 miles, the 'fast pace' can't be all that fast.  A generous estimate would be that they're doing 9 or 10 minute miles.  That isn't a fast pace by any definition.

There are other questions here. 

1) In this day and age, just about everyone carries a phone.  Knowing that the workout would be done in an area that could possibly be dangerous, why did no one have a phone loaded with the numbers of park security and local police?

2) When Stacy told the 'Cool Girls' that Kelly had decided to truncate the workout, why did no one call Kelly to see If she was all right?

I do not mean to imply that Stacy was correct in any way.  Her actions were sneaky, nasty and self-serving. 

I do not mean to suggest that the OP was untruthful.  The OP reported the truth as she knew it but we do not know the whole truth here. 

On this thread we have heard from runners, cyclists, climbers and hikers.  They all know about the
ethics of sport and have a good idea of how much time a certain distance should take to cover.

Something is off here but I can't quite put my finger on what it is. 

 

   
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: Judah on October 12, 2012, 05:11:42 PM
I really don't see any of those questions as issues.  Fast is relative and I never carry a phone when I run. Plus, we're getting the story third hand, so the details are naturally going to be fuzzy.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: NyaChan on October 12, 2012, 05:12:15 PM
I assumed (perhaps wrongly) that Stacy intended to run until she ran into the other runners (who would have been on their way back) and then return with them so she would be running with the Cool Girls.  But when I thought more, I realized that if they ran 5 miles, and the run was only 10, then Kelly/Stacy would have been ready to turn back or about to turn back already, correct?  So the other girls would have passed them already on the way back to the car since they had been running faster. 

As for the cell, when I go to the trail, I actually often leave my cell in the car because it can be a pain to keep track of it when I'm out there, so that doesn't bug me so much.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: Judah on October 12, 2012, 05:14:32 PM
I assumed (perhaps wrongly) that Stacy intended to run until she ran into the other runners (who would have been on their way back) and then return with them so she would be running with the Cool Girls.  But when I thought more, I realized that if they ran 5 miles, and the run was only 10, then Kelly/Stacy would have been ready to turn back or about to turn back already, correct?  So the other girls would have passed them already on the way back to the car since they had been running faster. 

As for the cell, when I go to the trail, I actually often leave my cell in the car because it can be a pain to keep track of it when I'm out there, so that doesn't bug me so much.

Unless they were running a loop, not an out-and-back.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: NyaChan on October 12, 2012, 05:20:03 PM
Ah good point :) 
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: Jones on October 12, 2012, 05:25:29 PM
If these runners are anything like me, the last 5 miles go a good bit slower than the first 5, too  ;D Also, around here anyway, a good number of nature parks have criss crossing loopy dupey trails, perhaps Stacy thought she would catch up to them via a shortcut. Bonus points if she claimed she didn't use a shortcut and caught up all on her own (make Kelly look like the one slowing HER down).

I carry my cell and mace while I am out and about excercising, but I know plenty who don't. Plus, some who say "Why? There's no service in XYZ park." and they are correct, there isn't.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: Miss March on October 12, 2012, 05:51:02 PM
I was wondering that too. The whole issue began when Stacey was lagging behind and wasn't able to keep up with the two "popular women" and Kelly. Then Kelly hurts her ankle and... suddenly Stacey has it in her to sprint and catch back up with the other two and stay right in step with them for the rest of the run?
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: stargazer on October 12, 2012, 06:13:36 PM
I was wondering that too. The whole issue began when Stacey was lagging behind and wasn't able to keep up with the two "popular women" and Kelly. Then Kelly hurts her ankle and... suddenly Stacey has it in her to sprint and catch back up with the other two and stay right in step with them for the rest of the run?

The OP doesn't say that.  Stacey left Kelley but we have no idea how far she was behind the other girls.  I assume she did NOT catch up to run the rest of the way but met up with them where they all parked their cars.

*edited to fix quotes
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: still in va on October 12, 2012, 06:18:56 PM
Thank you for the temporary shut-down of this thread.  There's so much going on here that people need time to think. 

I have no doubt that the OP is sincere and does not know the entire story.  However, as someone who has been a competitive athlete,  an amateur trainer and the writer of interactive mysteries, I have a few problems with timing. 

1). The workout is said to be a ten mile run.

2) The other two ladies are said to set a fast pace.

3). Kelly stays behind to run with Stacy.

4) Five miles into the ten mile workout, Kelly is quite seriously injured.

5). Stacy takes off and says that she and the others will meet Kelly back at the cars in 'about an hour'.

Here are the problems I find in the story.

1) Stacy expects to catch up with the 'Cool Girls' and finish the workout with them. 

2) If Stacy can catch up with the others and it will take them an hour to cover the last 5 miles, the 'fast pace' can't be all that fast.  A generous estimate would be that they're doing 9 or 10 minute miles.  That isn't a fast pace by any definition.

There are other questions here. 

1) In this day and age, just about everyone carries a phone.  Knowing that the workout would be done in an area that could possibly be dangerous, why did no one have a phone loaded with the numbers of park security and local police?

2) When Stacy told the 'Cool Girls' that Kelly had decided to truncate the workout, why did no one call Kelly to see If she was all right?

I do not mean to imply that Stacy was correct in any way.  Her actions were sneaky, nasty and self-serving. 

I do not mean to suggest that the OP was untruthful.  The OP reported the truth as she knew it but we do not know the whole truth here. 

On this thread we have heard from runners, cyclists, climbers and hikers.  They all know about the
ethics of sport and have a good idea of how much time a certain distance should take to cover.

Something is off here but I can't quite put my finger on what it is. 
 

according to the original post, they did indeed call Kelly and apologize, because they had just found out, from Stacy, that Kelly was indeed hurt, and had not just decided to not finish the run as Stacy originally told them.

let's keep in mind that Kelly knows these two through Stacy, who works with them.  it's not like Kelly knew them before. 

i'm not sure what's feeling "off" to you.  it sounds pretty much cut and dried to me.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: Veronica on October 12, 2012, 06:40:49 PM
Why would Kelly want to hang around with someone who couldn't even show a modicum of concern for her for what was obviously a serious injury?

I am in no way defending Stacey or your cousin.  I do want to point out that I don't think one can say the bolded necessarily.  Not even Kelly knew this was obviously a serious injury at that time.  Stacey should have handled it differently, but I do not see that she actively knew that Kelly was seriously injured and left.  She should have waited to find out, but I don't think it's fair to assume she thought, "Wow, Kelly is really hurt!  I'm going to leave."  She probably thought, "Kelly fell but it doesn't seem like a big deal - I'm going to keep going - she didn't say anything asking me not to."

As I think about this, I can't think of a time when I was a the weaker runner in recent history, but I would not have wanted Kelly to stay back with me if I were Stacey either.  I just don't like to inconvenience other people like that.  And yes, even in a "bad neighborhood."  (Although, again, if it was that bad, I wouldn't be running there even with a partner).

This is not someone who is a weaker runner though.  It's not like Kelly couldn't keep up.  She's actually the stronger runner who ended up getting hurt.  I think there is something really, really wrong with Stacey if she would leave a friend alone who was hurt.  I wouldn't do that for to a stranger, much less a friend.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: Winterlight on October 12, 2012, 06:42:27 PM
I think Kelly should stay far, far away from Stacy. Putting aside the injury issue, she has lied about Kelly, nagged Kelly's husband, refused to accept that she's made an error and generally been a big old jerk about things.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: NyaChan on October 12, 2012, 06:43:02 PM
Why would Kelly want to hang around with someone who couldn't even show a modicum of concern for her for what was obviously a serious injury?

I am in no way defending Stacey or your cousin.  I do want to point out that I don't think one can say the bolded necessarily.  Not even Kelly knew this was obviously a serious injury at that time.  Stacey should have handled it differently, but I do not see that she actively knew that Kelly was seriously injured and left.  She should have waited to find out, but I don't think it's fair to assume she thought, "Wow, Kelly is really hurt!  I'm going to leave."  She probably thought, "Kelly fell but it doesn't seem like a big deal - I'm going to keep going - she didn't say anything asking me not to."

As I think about this, I can't think of a time when I was a the weaker runner in recent history, but I would not have wanted Kelly to stay back with me if I were Stacey either.  I just don't like to inconvenience other people like that.  And yes, even in a "bad neighborhood."  (Although, again, if it was that bad, I wouldn't be running there even with a partner).

This is not someone who is a weaker runner though.  It's not like Stacey couldn't keep up.  She's actually the stronger runner who ended up getting hurt.  I think there is something really, really wrong with Kelly if she would leave a friend alone who was hurt.  I wouldn't do that for to a stranger, much less a friend.

I think you mixed up the names - Kelly is the stronger runner who was hurt.  Stacy is the weaker runner who left the injured person behind.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: Veronica on October 12, 2012, 06:53:00 PM
Why would Kelly want to hang around with someone who couldn't even show a modicum of concern for her for what was obviously a serious injury?

I am in no way defending Stacey or your cousin.  I do want to point out that I don't think one can say the bolded necessarily.  Not even Kelly knew this was obviously a serious injury at that time.  Stacey should have handled it differently, but I do not see that she actively knew that Kelly was seriously injured and left.  She should have waited to find out, but I don't think it's fair to assume she thought, "Wow, Kelly is really hurt!  I'm going to leave."  She probably thought, "Kelly fell but it doesn't seem like a big deal - I'm going to keep going - she didn't say anything asking me not to."

As I think about this, I can't think of a time when I was a the weaker runner in recent history, but I would not have wanted Kelly to stay back with me if I were Stacey either.  I just don't like to inconvenience other people like that.  And yes, even in a "bad neighborhood."  (Although, again, if it was that bad, I wouldn't be running there even with a partner).

This is not someone who is a weaker runner though.  It's not like Stacey couldn't keep up.  She's actually the stronger runner who ended up getting hurt.  I think there is something really, really wrong with Kelly if she would leave a friend alone who was hurt.  I wouldn't do that for to a stranger, much less a friend.

I think you mixed up the names - Kelly is the stronger runner who was hurt.  Stacy is the weaker runner who left the injured person behind.

I'm sure you''re right. I'll go change it.

Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: TurtleDove on October 12, 2012, 06:55:41 PM
Thipu, I agree that the timing or something is off for me too.  If Stacey really wanted in with the cool kids, she would not have lagged behind, and she could not have caught up after the cool kids ran ahead.  I can't tell if they were running a loop or what but if her goal was to meet the cook kids back at the car, it would have been better to go back with Kelly. And I agree that the pace as described is not fast if it is taking an hour to run five miles and Stacey could not keep up with that.  Anyway, I just think there is so much unknown here.  Stacey was a jerk in the aftermath, but I think some posters are assigning motives to her initial decision to run ahead that just don't add up to me.

I always run with my phone, both so I can call someone if I need to and so I can use RunKeeper and keep track of my mileage.  I am pretty sure most runners I know of do! 
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: Surianne on October 12, 2012, 07:01:33 PM
Not every runner owns a phone, either -- I don't.  My iPod keeps track of my distance. 
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: still in va on October 12, 2012, 07:02:07 PM
Thipu, I agree that the timing or something is off for me too.  If Stacey really wanted in with the cool kids, she would not have lagged behind, and she could not have caught up after the cool kids ran ahead.  I can't tell if they were running a loop or what but if her goal was to meet the cook kids back at the car, it would have been better to go back with Kelly. And I agree that the pace as described is not fast if it is taking an hour to run five miles and Stacey could not keep up with that.  Anyway, I just think there is so much unknown here.  Stacey was a jerk in the aftermath, but I think some posters are assigning motives to her initial decision to run ahead that just don't add up to me.

I always run with my phone, both so I can call someone if I need to and so I can use RunKeeper and keep track of my mileage.  I am pretty sure most runners I know of do!

and you're assuming that cell phones always work everywhere?  there are several areas here in our metropolitan area where there is spotty reception at best, and no reception at worst.

Turtle Dove, i don't think i'm assigning any motives to Stacy during the run.  it seems that you are bending over backwards to prove that Stacy did nothing wrong when Kelly hurt her foot and told Stacy that she was in pain.  you are using your own experiences and wishes, which i understand.  we all look through our own lens when replying here.  however, i really doubt that Kelly would be so angry and disgusted at a friend of 13 years if she didn't think that Stacy was completely out of bounds and wrong.  and Kelly was there.  i wasn't.

we're in agreement that Stacy behaved horribly after the fact, however.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: greencat on October 12, 2012, 07:02:49 PM
I think it was clear that Kelly did not have her phone on her, for whatever reason.  Maybe because she was running in a group and felt safe without it, maybe because she knew didn't have service - maybe even because her battery was dead.

I think the distance and catching up issue are likely an error introduced in the process of us getting this story third-hand.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: Veronica on October 12, 2012, 07:04:41 PM
Thipu, I agree that the timing or something is off for me too.  If Stacey really wanted in with the cool kids, she would not have lagged behind, and she could not have caught up after the cool kids ran ahead.  I can't tell if they were running a loop or what but if her goal was to meet the cook kids back at the car, it would have been better to go back with Kelly. And I agree that the pace as described is not fast if it is taking an hour to run five miles and Stacey could not keep up with that.  Anyway, I just think there is so much unknown here.  Stacey was a jerk in the aftermath, but I think some posters are assigning motives to her initial decision to run ahead that just don't add up to me.

I always run with my phone, both so I can call someone if I need to and so I can use RunKeeper and keep track of my mileage.  I am pretty sure most runners I know of do!

So if you were without your phone and hurt yourself when running you would expect your fellow runners to just leave you there and finish the route? 
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: TurtleDove on October 12, 2012, 07:05:10 PM
it seems that you are bending over backwards to prove that Stacy did nothing wrong when Kelly hurt her foot and told Stacy that she was in pain. 

No, I am saying that to me it doesn't make sense that her motive in leaving Kelly was to impress the cool kids, and that it does not seem clear to me at all that Stacey knew Kelly was hurt.  That is the sole portion I am addressing.  I think Stacey has proven herself to be a jerk, but the posts that "anyone who would leave someone obviously seriously injured is an unempathetic jerk" I don't think are fair.  Those overly broad statements are what I am addressing.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: TurtleDove on October 12, 2012, 07:06:17 PM

So if you were without your phone and hurt yourself when running you would expect your fellow runners to just leave you there and finish the route?

I don't know how many times I need to say this.  First, I would have my phone. Second, if I needed help I would ASK FOR that help.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: Veronica on October 12, 2012, 07:09:41 PM

So if you were without your phone and hurt yourself when running you would expect your fellow runners to just leave you there and finish the route?

I don't know how many times I need to say this.  First, I would have my phone. Second, if I needed help I would ASK FOR that help.

1) So if you didn't have your phone it would be fine to leave you?  2) It doesn't sound like Kelly said, "oh no, go one without me," so you would be fine with leaving an injured friend behind if they didn't specifically ask you to stay with them?
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: Surianne on October 12, 2012, 07:10:01 PM
it seems that you are bending over backwards to prove that Stacy did nothing wrong when Kelly hurt her foot and told Stacy that she was in pain. 

No, I am saying that to me it doesn't make sense that her motive in leaving Kelly was to impress the cool kids, and that it does not seem clear to me at all that Stacey knew Kelly was hurt.  That is the sole portion I am addressing.  I think Stacey has proven herself to be a jerk, but the posts that "anyone who would leave someone obviously seriously injured is an unempathetic jerk" I don't think are fair.  Those overly broad statements are what I am addressing.

I agree with you completely on this one.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: Zilla on October 12, 2012, 07:10:56 PM
Thank you for the temporary shut-down of this thread.  There's so much going on here that people need time to think. 

I have no doubt that the OP is sincere and does not know the entire story.  However, as someone who has been a competitive athlete,  an amateur trainer and the writer of interactive mysteries, I have a few problems with timing. 

1). The workout is said to be a ten mile run.

2) The other two ladies are said to set a fast pace.

3). Kelly stays behind to run with Stacy.

4) Five miles into the ten mile workout, Kelly is quite seriously injured.

5). Stacy takes off and says that she and the others will meet Kelly back at the cars in 'about an hour'.

Here are the problems I find in the story.

1) Stacy expects to catch up with the 'Cool Girls' and finish the workout with them. 

2) If Stacy can catch up with the others and it will take them an hour to cover the last 5 miles, the 'fast pace' can't be all that fast.  A generous estimate would be that they're doing 9 or 10 minute miles.  That isn't a fast pace by any definition.

There are other questions here. 

1) In this day and age, just about everyone carries a phone.  Knowing that the workout would be done in an area that could possibly be dangerous, why did no one have a phone loaded with the numbers of park security and local police?

2) When Stacy told the 'Cool Girls' that Kelly had decided to truncate the workout, why did no one call Kelly to see If she was all right?

I do not mean to imply that Stacy was correct in any way.  Her actions were sneaky, nasty and self-serving. 

I do not mean to suggest that the OP was untruthful.  The OP reported the truth as she knew it but we do not know the whole truth here. 

On this thread we have heard from runners, cyclists, climbers and hikers.  They all know about the
ethics of sport and have a good idea of how much time a certain distance should take to cover.

Something is off here but I can't quite put my finger on what it is. 
 

according to the original post, they did indeed call Kelly and apologize, because they had just found out, from Stacy, that Kelly was indeed hurt, and had not just decided to not finish the run as Stacy originally told them.

let's keep in mind that Kelly knows these two through Stacy, who works with them.  it's not like Kelly knew them before. 

i'm not sure what's feeling "off" to you.  it sounds pretty much cut and dried to me.


Plus an average jog is 8-10 minutes and a run is 5-7 minutes for a good runner.  And then they do something to cool down whether it's walking or stretching.  So I can see it taking an hour. 
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: greencat on October 12, 2012, 07:14:50 PM
I think you're missing some things Turtledove:

Kelly didn't tell Stacey to leave her.  Stacey didn't give her the option of "I'll stay if you think you're hurt or I'll get you some help" either.  Kelly was obviously limping and Stacey told her to make her own way back to the car, and then Stacey told the other women a blatant lie about why Kelly wasn't with her.

Does your phone never break and do you never forget to charge it or simply forget it at home?  Do you have perfect reception everywhere?  Kelly didn't have her phone or didn't have reception.  You always having your phone on you isn't relevant to Kelly's situation - Kelly was relying on her friend to keep her safe running, and her friend failed her.  You are relying on being able to call for help, but Kelly should have had help right there with her, and her help left.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: TurtleDove on October 12, 2012, 07:15:00 PM

1) So if you didn't have your phone it would be fine to leave you?  2) It doesn't sound like Kelly said, "oh no, go one without me," so you would be fine with leaving an injured friend behind if they didn't specifically ask you to stay with them?

Veronica, please stop.  Please read what I have read and stop trying to villianize me.  I personally would not leave anyone unless and until I knew they were okay.  I personally would ASK someone to stay with me if I wanted them to stay, and if I did not, I would happily ask them to run ahead.  In the OP, Kelly did NOT ask Stacey to stay and did NOT express that she was upset when Stacey said she was running ahead.  I would have handled it differently, but to assign totally awful motives to Stacey I think is not appropriate.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: still in va on October 12, 2012, 07:20:22 PM
it seems that you are bending over backwards to prove that Stacy did nothing wrong when Kelly hurt her foot and told Stacy that she was in pain. 

No, I am saying that to me it doesn't make sense that her motive in leaving Kelly was to impress the cool kids, and that it does not seem clear to me at all that Stacey knew Kelly was hurt.  That is the sole portion I am addressing.  I think Stacey has proven herself to be a jerk, but the posts that "anyone who would leave someone obviously seriously injured is an unempathetic jerk" I don't think are fair.  Those overly broad statements are what I am addressing.

someone already posted to you the portion of the original post where Kelly made the misstep, and she immediately couldn't stand and it began to swell.  if i'm running with someone else, who is an experienced runner, and they immediately cannot put weight upon their foot and that foot immediately begins to swell, i don't need to be told that that person is injured. 

and i'm sorry, but if i'm running with someone (which would never happen because i despise running), and they trip or make a misstep and their foot immediately begins to swell?  my first reaction is not going to be to run off and try to catch up with the other members of our group because i don't want to break my stride, or whatever stupid excuse Stacy used.  Stacy was a jerk in how she handled it afterwards.  she was also a jerk, in MY opinion, in how she handled Kelly's injury, and just running off after telling Kelly to meet them all at their cars.  your opinion is obviously different.  that's fine with me.  but you aren't going to change my mind, much as i assume that i am not going to change yours.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: Veronica on October 12, 2012, 07:22:18 PM

1) So if you didn't have your phone it would be fine to leave you?  2) It doesn't sound like Kelly said, "oh no, go one without me," so you would be fine with leaving an injured friend behind if they didn't specifically ask you to stay with them?

Veronica, please stop.  Please read what I have read and stop trying to villianize me.  I personally would not leave anyone unless and until I knew they were okay.  I personally would ASK someone to stay with me if I wanted them to stay, and if I did not, I would happily ask them to run ahead.  In the OP, Kelly did NOT ask Stacey to stay and did NOT express that she was upset when Stacey said she was running ahead.  I would have handled it differently, but to assign totally awful motives to Stacey I think is not appropriate.

I can only go by what you've said in this thread.  I don't believe I'm trying to "villianize" you.  I think the reaction to Stacey has been appropriate and I am frankly astonished that anyone can defend her based on these set of facts. 
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: still in va on October 12, 2012, 07:23:23 PM

1) So if you didn't have your phone it would be fine to leave you?  2) It doesn't sound like Kelly said, "oh no, go one without me," so you would be fine with leaving an injured friend behind if they didn't specifically ask you to stay with them?

Veronica, please stop.  Please read what I have read and stop trying to villianize me.  I personally would not leave anyone unless and until I knew they were okay.  I personally would ASK someone to stay with me if I wanted them to stay, and if I did not, I would happily ask them to run ahead.  In the OP, Kelly did NOT ask Stacey to stay and did NOT express that she was upset when Stacey said she was running ahead.  I would have handled it differently, but to assign totally awful motives to Stacey I think is not appropriate.

Turtle Dove, no one is trying to villianize you.  you seem to be determined to defend Stacy running off and leaving Kelly, who could not walk.  yes it's true that Kelly didn't say "Stacy, don't leave me."  it also sounds as if Stacy didn't give Kelly much of a chance to say anything before she went racing off.

we aren't accusing you of being Stacy, or that you would do what Stacy did.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: NyaChan on October 12, 2012, 07:28:55 PM
You know, I don't in general think that there is an appropriate reaction and anything that doesn't fall into that is inappropriate.  In fact, I think threads that only have one opinion - that the person posted about is horrible and there can be no defense of them - are pretty boring and one-dimensional.  People are human, they make mistakes.  I think that TurtleDove is giving an interesting point of view, though I don't agree with her, and is keeping open the option that there may have been a possible reason why Stacy ran on than other than that she is just a horrible person with no redeeming qualities.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: TurtleDove on October 12, 2012, 07:30:01 PM
Please read my posts.  I have not defended Stacey and have continually said I do NOT defend her.  I am addressing the broad statements that it is unempathetic to leave a running partner.  Again, I would not have handled this how Stacey did and for the eleventyseventh time I AM NOT DEFENDING STACEY.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: Surianne on October 12, 2012, 07:37:20 PM
it seems that you are bending over backwards to prove that Stacy did nothing wrong when Kelly hurt her foot and told Stacy that she was in pain. 

No, I am saying that to me it doesn't make sense that her motive in leaving Kelly was to impress the cool kids, and that it does not seem clear to me at all that Stacey knew Kelly was hurt.  That is the sole portion I am addressing.  I think Stacey has proven herself to be a jerk, but the posts that "anyone who would leave someone obviously seriously injured is an unempathetic jerk" I don't think are fair.  Those overly broad statements are what I am addressing.

someone already posted to you the portion of the original post where Kelly made the misstep, and she immediately couldn't stand and it began to swell.  if i'm running with someone else, who is an experienced runner, and they immediately cannot put weight upon their foot and that foot immediately begins to swell, i don't need to be told that that person is injured. 

I've noticed a lot of posts about how Stacey should have stopped because of the swelling.  I'm curious...without looking closely and maybe even touching the other person's foot, from a standing position, could you really tell that another person's foot was swelling?  I know I couldn't.  Why would you expect Stacey (or whoever) to see that Kelly's foot is swelling without Kelly actually saying it?

Maybe other posters are better visual doctors than I am...but I definitely wouldn't be able to diagnose someone's foot as swelling when they're wearing socks, pants, and shoes, and I was standing and not right up close next to them.

While I agree that Stacey should have asked Kelly if she wanted her to stay, I don't think it was on her to be able to tell how badly Kelly was injured, if Kelly didn't make that clear.  I think in the rush to villainize Stacey and anyone else who might not stay (myself included), there are a lot of assumptions about Stacey's knowledge being made here.  Honestly, if someone didn't say to me "My foot is swelling," as a non-doctor I wouldn't have the faintest clue how to see that.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: still in va on October 12, 2012, 07:46:57 PM
it seems that you are bending over backwards to prove that Stacy did nothing wrong when Kelly hurt her foot and told Stacy that she was in pain. 

No, I am saying that to me it doesn't make sense that her motive in leaving Kelly was to impress the cool kids, and that it does not seem clear to me at all that Stacey knew Kelly was hurt.  That is the sole portion I am addressing.  I think Stacey has proven herself to be a jerk, but the posts that "anyone who would leave someone obviously seriously injured is an unempathetic jerk" I don't think are fair.  Those overly broad statements are what I am addressing.

someone already posted to you the portion of the original post where Kelly made the misstep, and she immediately couldn't stand and it began to swell.  if i'm running with someone else, who is an experienced runner, and they immediately cannot put weight upon their foot and that foot immediately begins to swell, i don't need to be told that that person is injured. 

I've noticed a lot of posts about how Stacey should have stopped because of the swelling.  I'm curious...without looking closely and maybe even touching the other person's foot, from a standing position, could you really tell that another person's foot was swelling?  I know I couldn't.  Why would you expect Stacey (or whoever) to see that Kelly's foot is swelling without Kelly actually saying it?

Maybe other posters are better visual doctors than I am...but I definitely wouldn't be able to diagnose someone's foot as swelling when they're wearing socks, pants, and shoes, and I was standing and not right up close next to them.

While I agree that Stacey should have asked Kelly if she wanted her to stay, I don't think it was on her to be able to tell how badly Kelly was injured, if Kelly didn't make that clear.  I think in the rush to villainize Stacey and anyone else who might not stay (myself included), there are a lot of assumptions about Stacey's knowledge being made here.  Honestly, if someone didn't say to me "My foot is swelling," as a non-doctor I wouldn't have the faintest clue how to see that.

and here we go again with the whole villianizing thing.  from the original post:

Kelly had a missed step about five miles into the ten mile run and severely injured her ankle.  It immediately started to swell and she was in a lot of pain.

The other women were nowhere in sight.  Rather than staying with Kelly and making sure she got back to her car safely, Stacy told her to just walk back to the car and they would meet her when they were done with their run.  Which would take another hour or so.

And then she ran off, leaving Kelly on the running path by herself.


again, it doesn't sound like Stacy gave Kelly much of a chance to say anything before she ran off to join the others.

no one is villianizing Stacy.  she made an error in judgement, which she compounded by being angry at Kelly for finally making it back to her car, without any help from her friend of 13 years, and drove herself to the ER. 

personally, if Stacy had left me injured on a running path and told me she'd see me in an hour, without a sincere apology when she found out that i actually had fractured a bone, she wouldn't have to worry about seeing me for a very long time.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: Zilla on October 12, 2012, 07:47:58 PM

Please read my posts.  I have not defended Stacey and have continually said I do NOT defend her.  I am addressing the broad statements that it is unempathetic to leave a running partner.  Again, I would not have handled this how Stacey did and for the eleventyseventh time I AM NOT DEFENDING STACEY.

Quote
In the OP, Kelly did NOT ask Stacey to stay and did NOT express that she was upset when Stacey said she was running ahead.  I would have handled it differently, but to assign totally awful motives to Stacey I think is not appropriate

Um you did defend her.  This is from your own post.  Now with this caveat, we don't know exactly what words were exchanged.  At the very least everyone in this post either said they would keep on running if Kelly didn't ask them to stay or would stay no matter what.   Because we know what happened afterwards is why we are judging her so harshly.  You keep on harping on the beginning of the story and not the entire story.  So everytime someone says that Stacey is a witch for leaving Kelly, this is knowing what happened next. (her telling the girls that Kelly quit)  Hence the "awful" motives. 
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: Amara on October 12, 2012, 07:50:27 PM
When I fractured my foot, Surianne, it was making a misstep while walking down some stairs. But yes, the swelling begins immediately and it is all too easy to see. Your foot and ankle really do get noticeably larger very fast. Not to mention it hurts!
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: Iris on October 12, 2012, 07:50:39 PM
Personally I think that the visibility of the swelling and the exact nature of the dialogue between Kelly and Stacy are both red herrings. I hate being fussed over when I am injured so I agree that it is not always wrong to leave someone who is injured. However, I think that maybe we could all agree that it is wrong to leave someone who is injured *without first making sure that they are okay* especially if it is a relatively deserted area. 

To me, that means stopping or jogging on the spot for the amount of time it takes them to assess their injuries, and in the case of an ankle injury stand up and check that they can bear their own weight/walk. Others may disagree but to me this seems the minimum. It is not enough for me to have the absence of Kelly saying "Please stay" as justification for Stacy jogging on - there really for proper consideration needs to have Stacy asking "Do you need help?" and getting a negative response before moving on. I would have thought that was universal so it is interesting to see all the different takes on this.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: Surianne on October 12, 2012, 07:51:31 PM
and here we go again with the whole villianizing thing.

Yes, I choose my words carefully and I think that's the appropriate one here when discussing that Stacey should have magically been able to see Kelly's swelling, which in my experience is simply not the case with many injuries.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: ChiGirl on October 12, 2012, 07:52:08 PM
Another hiker checking in here, and in my experience, when someone fractures an ankle on the trail you don't need to be a doctor to tell that they're injured.  You don't even need functioning eyeballs, because the sound of your fellow hiker saying "owowowow, ouch, ohmygod, bleep expletive bleep" is enough to alert you that something is wrong (leaving out the visual of the person falling down and holding their ankle).  Someone who is in a lot of pain, as Kelly is described, is going to show it.

And the first question is always, "can you put weight on it?"  Kelly could not walk.  Her injury was serious.  At the very least, Stacey should have stayed with her long enough to ascertain that Kelly could move under her own power.

I have been that injured hiker, and if my friends had responded with, "well, I'll just meet you back at the car" I would have been stunned, appalled, and seriously reconsidering the friendship.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: Zilla on October 12, 2012, 07:58:05 PM
and here we go again with the whole villianizing thing.

Yes, I choose my words carefully and I think that's the appropriate one here when discussing that Stacey should have magically been able to see Kelly's swelling, which in my experience is simply not the case with many injuries.


I for one have had swelling and it was very quickly noticeable.  I have seen it on my mom's when she sprained her ankle and on a friend too. 
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: still in va on October 12, 2012, 08:04:55 PM
and here we go again with the whole villianizing thing.

Yes, I choose my words carefully and I think that's the appropriate one here when discussing that Stacey should have magically been able to see Kelly's swelling, which in my experience is simply not the case with many injuries.


I for one have had swelling and it was very quickly noticeable.  I have seen it on my mom's when she sprained her ankle and on a friend too.

that has been my experience as well. the last time i sprained an ankle, the ankle swelled over the top of my shoe within minutes.  swelling for a serious injury is pretty obvious and pretty fast, and doesn't require a trained medical eye. 
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: Surianne on October 12, 2012, 08:07:27 PM
and here we go again with the whole villianizing thing.

Yes, I choose my words carefully and I think that's the appropriate one here when discussing that Stacey should have magically been able to see Kelly's swelling, which in my experience is simply not the case with many injuries.


I for one have had swelling and it was very quickly noticeable.  I have seen it on my mom's when she sprained her ankle and on a friend too.

that has been my experience as well. the last time i sprained an ankle, the ankle swelled over the top of my shoe within minutes.  swelling for a serious injury is pretty obvious and pretty fast, and doesn't require a trained medical eye. 

Yes, I'm sure it differs based on the injury, and some swelling is obvious -- hence why our experiences are different, and why no one can automatically be expected to diagnose the severity of the injury based on swelling they may or may not be able to see. 

I am certainly not negating your experiences of being able to obviously see swelling, and similarly I hope that you will accept that I'm telling the truth about my own experiences.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: still in va on October 12, 2012, 08:10:48 PM
and here we go again with the whole villianizing thing.

Yes, I choose my words carefully and I think that's the appropriate one here when discussing that Stacey should have magically been able to see Kelly's swelling, which in my experience is simply not the case with many injuries.

i don't think there was any magic that needed to be involved here.  from what has been related to us in the original post, Kelly's foot immediately began to swell.  a swollen foot is pretty darn obvious. 

i'm not villianizing Stacy.  i don't much care about Stacy, especially how she acted after the fact, which all of us seem to agree was pretty nasty.  but i'm also not going to just say, "oh poor Stacy, she didn't know Kelly was hurt."  Stacy knew enough to tell the other two runners that Kelly didn't feel like finishing.  she did NOT tell them, "oh, Kelly turned her foot about 5 miles back.  she's going to limp back to the cars and meet us there."  in other words, she didn't tell them the truth, which she knew.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: TurtleDove on October 12, 2012, 08:13:51 PM

Please read my posts.  I have not defended Stacey and have continually said I do NOT defend her.  I am addressing the broad statements that it is unempathetic to leave a running partner.  Again, I would not have handled this how Stacey did and for the eleventyseventh time I AM NOT DEFENDING STACEY.

Quote
In the OP, Kelly did NOT ask Stacey to stay and did NOT express that she was upset when Stacey said she was running ahead. I would have handled it differently, but [b]to assign totally awful motives to Stacey I think is not appropriate[/b]

Um you did defend her.  This is from your own post.  Now with this caveat, we don't know exactly what words were exchanged.  At the very least everyone in this post either said they would keep on running if Kelly didn't ask them to stay or would stay no matter what.   Because we know what happened afterwards is why we are judging her so harshly.  You keep on harping on the beginning of the story and not the entire story.  So everytime someone says that Stacey is a witch for leaving Kelly, this is knowing what happened next. (her telling the girls that Kelly quit)  Hence the "awful" motives. 
There is a major difference between defending Stacey and my posts. Please stop with this. I believe my posts have been clear.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: still in va on October 12, 2012, 08:27:56 PM

Please read my posts.  I have not defended Stacey and have continually said I do NOT defend her.  I am addressing the broad statements that it is unempathetic to leave a running partner.  Again, I would not have handled this how Stacey did and for the eleventyseventh time I AM NOT DEFENDING STACEY.

Quote
In the OP, Kelly did NOT ask Stacey to stay and did NOT express that she was upset when Stacey said she was running ahead. I would have handled it differently, but [b]to assign totally awful motives to Stacey I think is not appropriate[/b]

Um you did defend her.  This is from your own post.  Now with this caveat, we don't know exactly what words were exchanged.  At the very least everyone in this post either said they would keep on running if Kelly didn't ask them to stay or would stay no matter what.   Because we know what happened afterwards is why we are judging her so harshly.  You keep on harping on the beginning of the story and not the entire story.  So everytime someone says that Stacey is a witch for leaving Kelly, this is knowing what happened next. (her telling the girls that Kelly quit)  Hence the "awful" motives. 
There is a major difference between defending Stacey and my posts. Please stop with this. I believe my posts have been clear.

Turtle Dove, i think you've been very clear that you thought that Stacy's behavior after the fact was awful.

i also think that if i ever lost my mind and decided to start running, i would be very happy to have you as a running partner.

however, i think you are taking your feelings, and applying them to what Stacy did.  and you are determined that anyone who thinks she did something wrong in leaving is being mean to Stacy.  i think Stacy had a momentary lack of judgement by running off, which she already realized, because she immediately lied to the other two runners in the group by telling them that Kelly didn't feel like finishing.  she didn't say Kelly hurt her foot, she said Kelly wasn't feeling it and decided to stop (or words to that effect).

i'm sorry you are taking criticism of Stacy so personally.  i don't know why you would.  i've already said that from what you've posted here, i would take you as a running partner in an instant.  posters thinking that Stacy was wrong to leave Kelly are not accusing you of doing anything wrong.  i don't know why you think those of us who think that Stacy was wrong in how she conducted herself are mean.  or how that might reflect upon you.  it doesn't.  it reflects smack dab upon Stacy.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: Zilla on October 12, 2012, 08:34:40 PM

Please read my posts.  I have not defended Stacey and have continually said I do NOT defend her.  I am addressing the broad statements that it is unempathetic to leave a running partner.  Again, I would not have handled this how Stacey did and for the eleventyseventh time I AM NOT DEFENDING STACEY.

Quote
In the OP, Kelly did NOT ask Stacey to stay and did NOT express that she was upset when Stacey said she was running ahead. I would have handled it differently, but [b]to assign totally awful motives to Stacey I think is not appropriate

Um you did defend her.  This is from your own post.  Now with this caveat, we don't know exactly what words were exchanged.  At the very least everyone in this post either said they would keep on running if Kelly didn't ask them to stay or would stay no matter what.   Because we know what happened afterwards is why we are judging her so harshly.  You keep on harping on the beginning of the story and not the entire story.  So everytime someone says that Stacey is a witch for leaving Kelly, this is knowing what happened next. (her telling the girls that Kelly quit)  Hence the "awful" motives. 
There is a major difference between defending Stacey and my posts. Please stop with this. I believe my posts have been clear.


I was merely pointing out both of your posts which contradicts each other.  Maybe you didn't realize it.  I like others don't think of you and Stacey as the same person.  You are actually the one that keeps saying that.  We are pointing out what Stacey did, not you.  I think like stillinva says that you are a bit too close to this.


Back to the OP, I too hope your husband talks to Eric soon and find out what Kelly ended up doing?  Staying friends with Stacey or not.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: TurtleDove on October 12, 2012, 08:40:49 PM
Thanks, Zilla. I was responding to the posters who continualy challenged how I would handle various situations and implied that I think leaving an obviously injured runner is okay, which is not at all what any of my posts said. Those posters were personalizing the situation to me, in my opinion, very inappropriately.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: Wordgeek on October 12, 2012, 08:42:52 PM
Alrighty then, thread re-closed while I sort out who needs gagging.

OP, if there's an update (hope, hope), pm me and I'll reopen the discussion. 

ETA thread opened.  Guilty parties - that is, the people who derailed the thread with their personal sniping back and forth - have been neutralized.  Useful, interesting discussion may now proceed.

Innocent bystanders, carry on.  8) ;D
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: GreenEyedHawk on October 12, 2012, 10:40:24 PM
I haven't read the entire thread, so I'm not sure if this has been said or not.

I don't think the issue is with what happened on the trail.  Yes, Kelly was injured, but did not ask Stacy to stay with her, nor did she mention she was injured.  That's been established.

However, if I were Stacy and I found out later that Kelly was indeed injured, my response wouldn't be to be ANGRY at her.  I'd be apologetic for leaving her, and maybe I'd ask, "Why didn't you say something?  I wouldn't have gone on if I knew you were hurt!"

I wouldn't be trying to blow the entire thing off, I wouldn't be calling Kelly's husband to try and talk some sense into her, and I wouldn't be constantly defensive and trying to shift blame around to assuage my own guilty conscience, because deep down, I'd feel like a jerk for having left my injured friend.  Of course, these are all assumptions.  I am not Stacy.  I wasn't in the situation myself and I cannot speak for anyone else.

So, in short, I think the issue isn't so much what happened on the running path, so much as the way Stacy handled it afterward.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: stargazer on October 12, 2012, 10:52:49 PM
GreenEyedHawk, it was clarified later that Kelly DID say she was in a lot of pain to Stacy. 

From the OP in a later post:

Sorry.  To clarify, Kelly didn't directly ask Stacy, please stay behind and help me.  My impression was she didn't think she would have to after saying she was in a lot of pain. Maybe that was her mistake assuming Stacy would take that as a cue to help.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: cheyne on October 12, 2012, 11:27:01 PM
I don't think that Stacey had a "momentary lack of judgement" when she ran off.  If she had, why wouldn't she have run back toward where she had left Kelly to see if she had made it out OK?  We're talking an hour here, plenty of time to say, "D'oh!  I shouldn't have left, better see if Kelly is all right".

The fact that Stacey didn't wait for Kelly to state that she was OK, or even ask Kelly if she needed help shows me her true motive here.  Stacey was all about catching up to the Queen Bees at the cars to socialize with them. 

I am not an "athlete" though I am in pretty good shape due to my job and lifestyle.  I can walk 4 miles in an hour, so these women doing 10 miles in 2 hours don't sound like "professional-type" athletes to me.  I think their training is such that they can miss a few miles in order to help an injured companion.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: WillyNilly on October 12, 2012, 11:30:06 PM
Honestly for me the whole swelling issue is a red herring in of itself. Kelly held back for Stacy when Stacy couldn't keep up.  Out of friendship and the buddy system.  But when Kelly needed a minute of holding back (to assess the situation) Stacy wouldn't and just went on.  That right there is the crux of the problem.  She left her partner without proper hesitation. 

Ok sure sometimes you hold back for a minute and then your partner realizes "I'm ok, but want to turn back/rest, you go on," but sometimes you hold back and thank goodness you did cause your friend is not ok.  The point is, when you've partnered up purposely, once in a while there's going to be practice sessions that have a few moments of "hold up a minute..."  That's simply the nature of practicing together. 

Kelly clearly understood that social contract - when Stacy needed to slow it down a bit, Kelly sacrificed her own workout to help her friend keep up; lets not forget Kelly is training for a marathon, so its not such a small sacrifice.  But when it was Stacy's turn to be the one sacrificing a little bit ("cool girls") she wouldn't do it.  Its not like she'd never see these women again - they were a regular foursome and Stacy works with them - so it not such a dire sacrifice to give up half a run with them, once, to hang back for a friend who's saying "ow!"
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: yokozbornak on October 12, 2012, 11:36:09 PM
I think that, even if you give Stacy the benefit of the doubt that she didn't realize the extent of Kelly's injuries, her behavior after the fact has truly been appalling.  Everyone makes mistakes that hurt other people sometimes, but I also think most people tend to bend over backwards to make amends once they realize what they have done.  Stacy's actions after the fact show that she is concerned with only one person's well-being - her own. 

To quote Maya Angelou (I think!) - Once someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time.  Stacy has shown who she is, and Kelly needs to heed the warning.  I think giving her the direct cut is appropriate if she chooses.  If that is not possible, then I think she should be coolly polite.  Sometimes old friendships are not valuable and precious - they are relics from the past that should have been thrown out a long time ago. 
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: LifeOnPluto on October 13, 2012, 12:29:43 AM
What gets me, is how Stacy basically told the Cool Kids "Oh, Kelly's had enough running, and is heading back to the car park."

This is so far from the truth, that it's staggering.

The most charitable explanation I can think of, is that Stacy had a moment of supreme misunderstanding, and somehow genuinely believed that Kelly had only suffered a very minor injury (not worth mentioning, really) and was leaving because she didn't feel like running anymore.

However, even if that was the case, Stacy should have been apologising PROFUSELY to Kelly once she'd learnt that Kelly had broken her ankle. As Yokozbornak stated above, Stacy's behaviour after the fact is appalling. That's why I think that Kelly should sit down and have it out with her.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: zyrs on October 13, 2012, 04:13:42 AM
Kelly is considering a temporary cut direct, but is reluctant because they've been friends for years and this is the first time Stacy has done something like this. Other than ignoring Stacy's phone calls, is there any way Kelly can convince Stacy that she did something wrong and has damaged their friendship?

"Dear Stacy;

You did something wrong when you left me injured on the trail and you know you did, otherwise you would not have lied to the cool girls about it.  You have severely damaged our friendship.  Because of this I need to take a break from contact with you for a while. 

Kelly
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: Thipu1 on October 13, 2012, 11:16:45 AM
Amen.  I think Zyrs has nailed it. 
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: jpcher on October 13, 2012, 01:04:32 PM
POD.

What zyrs said is exactly what Kelly should do.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: weeblewobble on October 13, 2012, 04:12:01 PM
As for details being "off", please keep in mind I am getting the info filtered through eric and then DH.  After a few beers.  Estimations could be rounded up or down, timewise. I am not sure.

Also Kelly did have a phone.  I dont know why she didnt call for help. Other than eric was out of town and she didn't want to call an ambulance. She must have had her reasons.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: Hmmmmm on October 13, 2012, 04:58:59 PM
As for details being "off", please keep in mind I am getting the info filtered through eric and then DH.  After a few beers.  Estimations could be rounded up or down, timewise. I am not sure.

Also Kelly did have a phone.  I dont know why she didnt call for help. Other than eric was out of town and she didn't want to call an ambulance. She must have had her reasons.

I don't know who'd I call either if my DD wasn't available.  I wouldn't call 911 for a broken bone and wouldn't have a number for any park type patrol.  I'd hate to call a friend to drive out and then try to find me on a park trail.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: Zilla on October 13, 2012, 09:38:09 PM
As for details being "off", please keep in mind I am getting the info filtered through eric and then DH.  After a few beers.  Estimations could be rounded up or down, timewise. I am not sure.

Also Kelly did have a phone.  I dont know why she didnt call for help. Other than eric was out of town and she didn't want to call an ambulance. She must have had her reasons.

I don't know who'd I call either if my DD wasn't available.  I wouldn't call 911 for a broken bone and wouldn't have a number for any park type patrol.  I'd hate to call a friend to drive out and then try to find me on a park trail.


That's what I was thinking.  If my dh was at work, who would I call?  I don't have family near by and what call another friend? But I would end up calling the park ranger office hoping someone was manning the phones. 
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: wolfie on October 13, 2012, 09:39:51 PM
As for details being "off", please keep in mind I am getting the info filtered through eric and then DH.  After a few beers.  Estimations could be rounded up or down, timewise. I am not sure.

Also Kelly did have a phone.  I dont know why she didnt call for help. Other than eric was out of town and she didn't want to call an ambulance. She must have had her reasons.

I don't know who'd I call either if my DD wasn't available.  I wouldn't call 911 for a broken bone and wouldn't have a number for any park type patrol.  I'd hate to call a friend to drive out and then try to find me on a park trail.


That's what I was thinking.  If my dh was at work, who would I call?  I don't have family near by and what call another friend? But I would end up calling the park ranger office hoping someone was manning the phones.

That is something to think about before going someplace - who would you call if something happened? If your SO isn't available then having that backup number would be a very good thing. Having a phone with you is useless if you don't have a number to call.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: Shoo on October 13, 2012, 10:10:51 PM
As for details being "off", please keep in mind I am getting the info filtered through eric and then DH.  After a few beers.  Estimations could be rounded up or down, timewise. I am not sure.

Also Kelly did have a phone.  I dont know why she didnt call for help. Other than eric was out of town and she didn't want to call an ambulance. She must have had her reasons.

I don't know who'd I call either if my DD wasn't available.  I wouldn't call 911 for a broken bone and wouldn't have a number for any park type patrol.  I'd hate to call a friend to drive out and then try to find me on a park trail.


That's what I was thinking.  If my dh was at work, who would I call?  I don't have family near by and what call another friend? But I would end up calling the park ranger office hoping someone was manning the phones.

That is something to think about before going someplace - who would you call if something happened? If your SO isn't available then having that backup number would be a very good thing. Having a phone with you is useless if you don't have a number to call.

I would absolutely call 911 for a broken bone.  911 isn't just for life or death.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: Mental Magpie on October 13, 2012, 11:13:25 PM
As for details being "off", please keep in mind I am getting the info filtered through eric and then DH.  After a few beers.  Estimations could be rounded up or down, timewise. I am not sure.

Also Kelly did have a phone.  I dont know why she didnt call for help. Other than eric was out of town and she didn't want to call an ambulance. She must have had her reasons.

I don't know who'd I call either if my DD wasn't available.  I wouldn't call 911 for a broken bone and wouldn't have a number for any park type patrol.  I'd hate to call a friend to drive out and then try to find me on a park trail.


That's what I was thinking.  If my dh was at work, who would I call?  I don't have family near by and what call another friend? But I would end up calling the park ranger office hoping someone was manning the phones.

That is something to think about before going someplace - who would you call if something happened? If your SO isn't available then having that backup number would be a very good thing. Having a phone with you is useless if you don't have a number to call.

I would absolutely call 911 for a broken bone.  911 isn't just for life or death.

True, but ambulance rides are not cheap.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: Melde on October 13, 2012, 11:22:48 PM
I think that, going forward, it is a good idea for anyone engaging in physical activity with a partner should become certified in Standard First Aid. Some of these questions about the etiquette become moot, as there is a procedure in place for you to follow for assessment and treatment. And a certain amount of security and confidence in knowing that you can deal with what ever comes up. (Former FIrst Aid/CPR Instructor speaking up here, just to be above board.) But I really do believe it would be a great idea for groups like this.

As an aside, I would like to remind people that even with Minor injuries, the body can go into shock, and that NEEDS to be treated.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: WillyNilly on October 14, 2012, 01:20:07 AM
As for details being "off", please keep in mind I am getting the info filtered through eric and then DH.  After a few beers.  Estimations could be rounded up or down, timewise. I am not sure.

Also Kelly did have a phone.  I dont know why she didnt call for help. Other than eric was out of town and she didn't want to call an ambulance. She must have had her reasons.

I don't know who'd I call either if my DD wasn't available.  I wouldn't call 911 for a broken bone and wouldn't have a number for any park type patrol.  I'd hate to call a friend to drive out and then try to find me on a park trail.


That's what I was thinking.  If my dh was at work, who would I call?  I don't have family near by and what call another friend? But I would end up calling the park ranger office hoping someone was manning the phones.

That is something to think about before going someplace - who would you call if something happened? If your SO isn't available then having that backup number would be a very good thing. Having a phone with you is useless if you don't have a number to call.

I would absolutely call 911 for a broken bone.  911 isn't just for life or death.

True, but ambulance rides are not cheap.

Seriously! A $500+ 911 call would not be my first, second or even third call!
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: Rohanna on October 14, 2012, 01:34:18 AM
Which is why helping your buddy out is even more important.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: Zilla on October 14, 2012, 08:14:31 AM
Which is why helping your buddy out is even more important.


Bingo.  I too wouldn't call 911.  At that time she did not know it was a broken bone and could have been just a bad sprain.  At most I would do is call the non emergency line for the park rangers to see if they can assist.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: Outdoor Girl on October 14, 2012, 08:55:30 AM
If I was going running with three friends, I wouldn't even consider the need to have someone to call on the phone.  Three people should be more than enough to get me back to my car should something happen.

Because of Stacy's actions - specifically lying about what happened to Kelly - Kelly had no support at all.  If Stacy that told the cool kids what really happened, I'm sure they would have gone back to help.

I think the jury is out on whether or not Stacy should have left Kelly alone but there is no doubt that her actions afterwords were reprehensible.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: LeveeWoman on October 14, 2012, 09:56:31 AM
An ambulance is cheaper than being mugged or s*xually assaulted.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: Minmom3 on October 14, 2012, 10:53:07 AM
An ambulance is cheaper than being mugged or s*xually assaulted.

Lower potential for being fatal too!  Not unheard of, and apparently HAPPENING at that park, hence the posted warnings, for muggings and rapes to go horribly south and for the victim to go to the morgue. 

Stacy broke the buddy rule, and for that she should get her hand slapped pretty hard.  But then she lied about it, and IMO, that's why she deserves to be dumped as a friend.  Somebody that selfish, and that self righteous in her justification for her behavior isn't a friend, even if she used to be one.  I feel for Kelly.  This is way more painful than a polite Fade Out.  She's been used and abused by Stacy.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: Hmmmmm on October 14, 2012, 11:41:14 AM
As for details being "off", please keep in mind I am getting the info filtered through eric and then DH.  After a few beers.  Estimations could be rounded up or down, timewise. I am not sure.

Also Kelly did have a phone.  I dont know why she didnt call for help. Other than eric was out of town and she didn't want to call an ambulance. She must have had her reasons.

I don't know who'd I call either if my DD wasn't available.  I wouldn't call 911 for a broken bone and wouldn't have a number for any park type patrol.  I'd hate to call a friend to drive out and then try to find me on a park trail.


That's what I was thinking.  If my dh was at work, who would I call?  I don't have family near by and what call another friend? But I would end up calling the park ranger office hoping someone was manning the phones.

That is something to think about before going someplace - who would you call if something happened? If your SO isn't available then having that backup number would be a very good thing. Having a phone with you is useless if you don't have a number to call.

In this case I would have believed my support system of running with a friend would be my emergency contact.  But yes if alone, I would have a plan on who to contact.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: Corvid on October 14, 2012, 01:08:42 PM
I haven't read the entire thread, so I'm not sure if this has been said or not.

I don't think the issue is with what happened on the trail.  Yes, Kelly was injured, but did not ask Stacy to stay with her, nor did she mention she was injured.  That's been established.

However, if I were Stacy and I found out later that Kelly was indeed injured, my response wouldn't be to be ANGRY at her.  I'd be apologetic for leaving her, and maybe I'd ask, "Why didn't you say something?  I wouldn't have gone on if I knew you were hurt!"

I wouldn't be trying to blow the entire thing off, I wouldn't be calling Kelly's husband to try and talk some sense into her, and I wouldn't be constantly defensive and trying to shift blame around to assuage my own guilty conscience, because deep down, I'd feel like a jerk for having left my injured friend.  Of course, these are all assumptions.  I am not Stacy.  I wasn't in the situation myself and I cannot speak for anyone else.

So, in short, I think the issue isn't so much what happened on the running path, so much as the way Stacy handled it afterward.

Agreed.  Whatever happened on the trail, whether selfishness or miscommunication or whatever, the proof in the pudding is Stacy's behavior afterwards.  Even if we assume there's some misunderstanding about what Stacy said to the other two runners and set that aside, surely the appropriate response to the injured friend you left behind is an abject apology rather blowing off what happened and annoyance that your friend is a bit miffed with you.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: Last_Dance on October 14, 2012, 02:18:25 PM
An ambulance is cheaper than being mugged or s*xually assaulted.

True, though I know exactly what's to blame in this situation: the whole "making a scene is absolutely the worst thing you could do" idea we all got pounded into us.
Perhaps Kelly would have called an ambulance if she hadn't run into the park employee, perhaps she wouldn't have. Perhaps the pain didn't let her think clearly - no offence meant to Kelly, I know thinking under pressure is extremely hard and I envy everyone who can do that from the bottom of my heart. 


Call me evil-minded, but I wouldn't be surprised if, between the time Stacy left Kelly behind and the time she caught up with The Cool Girls, Stacy realized she could use Kelly's absence to make herself look better.

"Oh, look, the experienced runner got tired and gave up already while poor, feeble little me has enough force of will to see the run through. See, she wasn't really hanging back because of me! I'm so much better than her already!"

I'm not saying that's what she thought, but...it would explain the lie.

OP said Stacy was sort sort of distant with Kelly after they started running with The Cool Girls - isn't it possible that Stacy was jealous of her? That she started seeing Kelly as competition for The Cool Girls' attention?
The three of them already have a genuine love for running in common, they're all more experienced than her...

I know, I know: speculation and we haven't got a shred of evidence from OP's story. It's just a thought.
However, it has been said it's probably not the first time Stacy brushed Kelly off for her own, selfish reasons. I'd also look back at her actions whenever she had been jealous of someone else. 
Again, just a thought.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: baglady on October 14, 2012, 02:45:37 PM
There is a lot of 20/20 hindsight going on in this thread. That's not a criticism -- it's human nature. OP has said she got the story third-hand. If it played out exactly as OP tells it, then yes, Stacy's behavior is reprehensible. But there could have been some details lost in the re-re-telling. Maybe Stacy *did* ask "Are you OK?" and Kelly responded something like "Dunno ... I think so ... " and Stacy took that as her cue to keep going.

Some injuries hurt like the dickens when they happen but turn out not to be serious (e.g., a scraped knee). Others don't involve a lot of pain at first -- someone mentioned an adrenaline rush at the time of trauma -- but the severity and the pain set in later. I can vouch for the latter scenario, having fallen down a flight of stairs in July and being "just a little shaken up" at the time ... the pain and swelling and bruising came in the next few hours.

I'm not defending Stacy, and I think Kelly should at the very least put the friendship in a temporary time-out ... but I do think there may be some pieces missing from the story through no fault of the OP's.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: wolfie on October 14, 2012, 02:52:57 PM

That is something to think about before going someplace - who would you call if something happened? If your SO isn't available then having that backup number would be a very good thing. Having a phone with you is useless if you don't have a number to call.

In this case I would have believed my support system of running with a friend would be my emergency contact.  But yes if alone, I would have a plan on who to contact.

I agree with you - I would have thought that my buddy would be my help. But now I am thinking of other, worst case scenarios - like say you and your buddy fall and neither can help the other. Or your buddy falls and you can't help them (say they fell down an embankment and you can't get down to them safely). Or you carpool and get back to the car and discover it won't start and noone else is around. It might just be a good idea to get a number of someone outside the situation to call - just in case. This is totally and completely outside the situation posted here - it just made me think that I don't think of these types of things - I fall into the trap of thinking that I just need to have my cell phone on me and forget about the "I need someone to call" part.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: thedudeabides on October 14, 2012, 03:13:19 PM
There is a lot of 20/20 hindsight going on in this thread. That's not a criticism -- it's human nature. OP has said she got the story third-hand. If it played out exactly as OP tells it, then yes, Stacy's behavior is reprehensible. But there could have been some details lost in the re-re-telling. Maybe Stacy *did* ask "Are you OK?" and Kelly responded something like "Dunno ... I think so ... " and Stacy took that as her cue to keep going.

Some injuries hurt like the dickens when they happen but turn out not to be serious (e.g., a scraped knee). Others don't involve a lot of pain at first -- someone mentioned an adrenaline rush at the time of trauma -- but the severity and the pain set in later. I can vouch for the latter scenario, having fallen down a flight of stairs in July and being "just a little shaken up" at the time ... the pain and swelling and bruising came in the next few hours.

I'm not defending Stacy, and I think Kelly should at the very least put the friendship in a temporary time-out ... but I do think there may be some pieces missing from the story through no fault of the OP's.

Honestly, even if Kelly did think she was fine and Stacy thought she was good to go back alone, there's not really a way to explain away the most heinous of Stacy's behavior, which was everything she did after the fact, at least not that I can see.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: KenveeB on October 14, 2012, 03:15:24 PM
There is a lot of 20/20 hindsight going on in this thread. That's not a criticism -- it's human nature. OP has said she got the story third-hand. If it played out exactly as OP tells it, then yes, Stacy's behavior is reprehensible. But there could have been some details lost in the re-re-telling. Maybe Stacy *did* ask "Are you OK?" and Kelly responded something like "Dunno ... I think so ... " and Stacy took that as her cue to keep going.

Some injuries hurt like the dickens when they happen but turn out not to be serious (e.g., a scraped knee). Others don't involve a lot of pain at first -- someone mentioned an adrenaline rush at the time of trauma -- but the severity and the pain set in later. I can vouch for the latter scenario, having fallen down a flight of stairs in July and being "just a little shaken up" at the time ... the pain and swelling and bruising came in the next few hours.

I'm not defending Stacy, and I think Kelly should at the very least put the friendship in a temporary time-out ... but I do think there may be some pieces missing from the story through no fault of the OP's.

I can see that happening, with Stacy and even Kelly at first not necessarily knowing how serious it is and Stacy going on. But she wouldn't have lied about it afterward, she wouldn't have been angry at Kelly later for not meeting them, she wouldn't be harassing Kelly after the face, and she would have been falling all over herself apologizing! So I can't reconcile Stacy making an honest mistake with her later behavior, though it might be okay in other circumstances.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: baglady on October 14, 2012, 03:21:59 PM
There is a lot of 20/20 hindsight going on in this thread. That's not a criticism -- it's human nature. OP has said she got the story third-hand. If it played out exactly as OP tells it, then yes, Stacy's behavior is reprehensible. But there could have been some details lost in the re-re-telling. Maybe Stacy *did* ask "Are you OK?" and Kelly responded something like "Dunno ... I think so ... " and Stacy took that as her cue to keep going.

Some injuries hurt like the dickens when they happen but turn out not to be serious (e.g., a scraped knee). Others don't involve a lot of pain at first -- someone mentioned an adrenaline rush at the time of trauma -- but the severity and the pain set in later. I can vouch for the latter scenario, having fallen down a flight of stairs in July and being "just a little shaken up" at the time ... the pain and swelling and bruising came in the next few hours.

I'm not defending Stacy, and I think Kelly should at the very least put the friendship in a temporary time-out ... but I do think there may be some pieces missing from the story through no fault of the OP's.

I can see that happening, with Stacy and even Kelly at first not necessarily knowing how serious it is and Stacy going on. But she wouldn't have lied about it afterward, she wouldn't have been angry at Kelly later for not meeting them, she wouldn't be harassing Kelly after the face, and she would have been falling all over herself apologizing! So I can't reconcile Stacy making an honest mistake with her later behavior, though it might be okay in other circumstances.

You and thedude are absolutely right. I was mainly focusing on the events on the trail, not the aftermath. I'm with you that her subsequent behavior was unacceptable.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: bloo on October 14, 2012, 03:28:43 PM
There is a lot of 20/20 hindsight going on in this thread. That's not a criticism -- it's human nature. OP has said she got the story third-hand. If it played out exactly as OP tells it, then yes, Stacy's behavior is reprehensible. But there could have been some details lost in the re-re-telling. Maybe Stacy *did* ask "Are you OK?" and Kelly responded something like "Dunno ... I think so ... " and Stacy took that as her cue to keep going.

Some injuries hurt like the dickens when they happen but turn out not to be serious (e.g., a scraped knee). Others don't involve a lot of pain at first -- someone mentioned an adrenaline rush at the time of trauma -- but the severity and the pain set in later. I can vouch for the latter scenario, having fallen down a flight of stairs in July and being "just a little shaken up" at the time ... the pain and swelling and bruising came in the next few hours.

I'm not defending Stacy, and I think Kelly should at the very least put the friendship in a temporary time-out ... but I do think there may be some pieces missing from the story through no fault of the OP's.

OP did clarify with updates with some of the missing pieces throughout this thread. Kelly did not ask Stacy to stay. She didn't think she had to.

See below. Along with her subsequent heinous behavior, my conclusion is Stacy cares pretty much only about Stacy.

Sorry.  To clarify, Kelly didn't directly ask Stacy, please stay behind and help me.  My impression was she didn't think she would have to after saying she was in a lot of pain. Maybe that was her mistake assuming Stacy would take that as a cue to help.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: Mental Magpie on October 15, 2012, 12:55:06 AM
An ambulance is cheaper than being mugged or s*xually assaulted.

It also depends on the likelyhood of being mugged or assaulted and one's ability in combatting an assault regardless of being able to walk.  Everyone weighs those things differently.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: rashea on October 15, 2012, 11:32:25 AM
I'll jump in.

Had Kelly been clear, then Stacy would be clearly in the wrong. On the other hand, if Stacy had said to the friends "oh, Kelly twisted her ankle a bit and went back" she wouldn't have looked bad. So the burning question for me is why she didn't say that. Why didn't she tell the friends that Kelly had gone back? Because that would have been the normal response. And it wouldn't have made Stacy look bad at all (at least not to me, if someone says they are heading back because they twisted an ankle I would be fine with that). Stacy's reaction even before she knew Kelly was more seriously injured is pretty unflattering.

I can speculate as to what her thoughts were. I can suppose she wanted to get in with the cool girls, or didn't want to interrupt her workout, or just wasn't thinking because she was caught up in runner's high, but in the end, the reality is that she either didn't stop long enough to ascertain if her friend was hurt enough to need her help, or she chose to leave anyway. Neither would have me keeping her as a friend or workout partner.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: rashea on October 15, 2012, 11:34:34 AM
An ambulance is cheaper than being mugged or s*xually assaulted.

It also depends on the likelyhood of being mugged or assaulted and one's ability in combatting an assault regardless of being able to walk.  Everyone weighs those things differently.

True. In my area I wouldn't bother to call for an ambulance, because it would simply take too long. But, I wouldn't rule out calling 911 in a situation like this either. There's a decent chance that they would be able to find someone in the park department, or the police would have that information. Of course, this is a really good reason to have the non-emergency police number in your phone, because this is the kind of situation they would be happy to help someone out with if they can. If not, they often know who to contact.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: Mikayla on October 15, 2012, 03:22:41 PM
There is a lot of 20/20 hindsight going on in this thread. That's not a criticism -- it's human nature. OP has said she got the story third-hand. If it played out exactly as OP tells it, then yes, Stacy's behavior is reprehensible. But there could have been some details lost in the re-re-telling. Maybe Stacy *did* ask "Are you OK?" and Kelly responded something like "Dunno ... I think so ... " and Stacy took that as her cue to keep going.

Some injuries hurt like the dickens when they happen but turn out not to be serious (e.g., a scraped knee). Others don't involve a lot of pain at first -- someone mentioned an adrenaline rush at the time of trauma -- but the severity and the pain set in later. I can vouch for the latter scenario, having fallen down a flight of stairs in July and being "just a little shaken up" at the time ... the pain and swelling and bruising came in the next few hours.

I'm not defending Stacy, and I think Kelly should at the very least put the friendship in a temporary time-out ... but I do think there may be some pieces missing from the story through no fault of the OP's.

I can see that happening, with Stacy and even Kelly at first not necessarily knowing how serious it is and Stacy going on. But she wouldn't have lied about it afterward, she wouldn't have been angry at Kelly later for not meeting them, she wouldn't be harassing Kelly after the face, and she would have been falling all over herself apologizing! So I can't reconcile Stacy making an honest mistake with her later behavior, though it might be okay in other circumstances.

You and thedude are absolutely right. I was mainly focusing on the events on the trail, not the aftermath. I'm with you that her subsequent behavior was unacceptable.

I still loved the way you put it.  It ended up as very sound general advice that may not be applicable in this thread :)

I do agree with others that the later actions were the most reprehensible.  In my world, those would a cut direct, simply because I've always been lucky with my friends, and I don't have the time or interest in anybody who morphs into Mean Girls on me. 
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you.
Post by: jpcher on October 15, 2012, 05:25:28 PM
Okay. With the new knowledge that Kelly did, indeed, have her cell phone with her, I'm wondering why she didn't call someone (or all 3, if one didn't answer) from the group and ask them to come back to help her.

That would be my first person to call, instead of 911, park rangers, etc.

Maybe Kelly didn't think to ask for the other runners cellphone#? A pp mentioned the same thing "Who would I call?"

I'm thinking (hoping) that the "She eventually came across park staff" mentioned in the OP came sooner rather than later, so Kelly didn't really need to make a call.

I'm just glad that Kelly made it home without extreme trauma.



I'm still in the camp that no matter what happened on the trail, Stacy's after actions were reprehensible.

I'm curious to find out how the "cool girls" are treating Stacy these days.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you UPDATE p17
Post by: weeblewobble on October 16, 2012, 09:25:41 AM
UPDATE: (Sort of)

DH talked to Eric.  Kelly's ankle is getting better, but she's obviously not going to be running at the same pace any time soon.  She's probably not going to be ready for the marathon (in December) but is hoping to do one next year.  She has told Stacy that she's angry about her behavior, more about Stacy's actions after the ankle injury, than leaving her on the trail.  Kelly told Stacy to stop calling her and stop calling Eric.  Stacy says she still thinks Kelly is over-reacting, but says she'll wait until Kelly has "calmed down" before talking to her again.

Also, the "cool girls" who we will call Rachel and Whitney have been checking in with Kelly (on Facebook) every few days to see how she's doing.  And they sent her a "get well" Amazon gift certificate, which is more than I can say for Stacy.  They apologized again for the way things went and said they never would have left if they knew that she was hurt.  "You just don't DO that to your running buddy," one of them told her (as reported by Eric).  "That's WHY you have a running buddy!"

Also, Rachel and Whitney have told Kelly that she's welcomed to run with them any time she's feels up to it.  And subtly, they let her know that Stacy was not welcome anymore.  So I don't think Stacy's plans have worked out quite the way she hoped. 
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you UPDATE p17
Post by: HermioneGranger on October 16, 2012, 09:38:44 AM
UPDATE: (Sort of)

DH talked to Eric.  Kelly's ankle is getting better, but she's obviously not going to be running at the same pace any time soon.  She's probably not going to be ready for the marathon (in December) but is hoping to do one next year.  She has told Stacy that she's angry about her behavior, more about Stacy's actions after the ankle injury, than leaving her on the trail.  Kelly told Stacy to stop calling her and stop calling Eric.  Stacy says she still thinks Kelly is over-reacting, but says she'll wait until Kelly has "calmed down" before talking to her again.

Also, the "cool girls" who we will call Rachel and Whitney have been checking in with Kelly (on Facebook) every few days to see how she's doing.  And they sent her a "get well" Amazon gift certificate, which is more than I can say for Stacy.  They apologized again for the way things went and said they never would have left if they knew that she was hurt.  "You just don't DO that to your running buddy," one of them told her (as reported by Eric).  "That's WHY you have a running buddy!"

Also, Rachel and Whitney have told Kelly that she's welcomed to run with them any time she's feels up to it.  And subtly, they let her know that Stacy was not welcome anymore.  So I don't think Stacy's plans have worked out quite the way she hoped.

Good.  I'm glad she's on the mend, and hope that Stacy has learned her lesson, but I doubt it.  At least Kelly got two new running buddies out of this.   :)
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you. UPDATE P17
Post by: PastryGoddess on October 16, 2012, 12:14:22 PM
Methinks Stacy is in for a shock when she realizes that her actions have backfired. 

Who wants to bet, as soon as she realizes the other girls are running/hanging out without her, her story and behavior will change.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you UPDATE p17
Post by: Queen of Clubs on October 16, 2012, 02:09:27 PM
She has told Stacy that she's angry about her behavior, more about Stacy's actions after the ankle injury, than leaving her on the trail.  Kelly told Stacy to stop calling her and stop calling Eric.  Stacy says she still thinks Kelly is over-reacting, but says she'll wait until Kelly has "calmed down" before talking to her again.

Proof positive that Stacy simply doesn't get it at all, and probably never will.  Of course Kelly is over-reacting about Stacy lying about what happened to her, getting irritated at Kelly not being there by the cars (with a fractured ankle and all), then dismissing Kelly's feelings.  It couldn't possibly be that Stacy was wrong.

At this stage, I think Kelly would be better off dumping Stacy once and for all.
Title: Re: When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you UPDATE p17
Post by: Winterlight on October 17, 2012, 11:14:13 AM
UPDATE: (Sort of)

DH talked to Eric.  Kelly's ankle is getting better, but she's obviously not going to be running at the same pace any time soon.  She's probably not going to be ready for the marathon (in December) but is hoping to do one next year.  She has told Stacy that she's angry about her behavior, more about Stacy's actions after the ankle injury, than leaving her on the trail.  Kelly told Stacy to stop calling her and stop calling Eric.  Stacy says she still thinks Kelly is over-reacting, but says she'll wait until Kelly has "calmed down" before talking to her again.

Also, the "cool girls" who we will call Rachel and Whitney have been checking in with Kelly (on Facebook) every few days to see how she's doing.  And they sent her a "get well" Amazon gift certificate, which is more than I can say for Stacy.  They apologized again for the way things went and said they never would have left if they knew that she was hurt.  "You just don't DO that to your running buddy," one of them told her (as reported by Eric).  "That's WHY you have a running buddy!"

Also, Rachel and Whitney have told Kelly that she's welcomed to run with them any time she's feels up to it.  And subtly, they let her know that Stacy was not welcome anymore.  So I don't think Stacy's plans have worked out quite the way she hoped.

Well, it sounds like Kelly has made some new friends. Glad to hear that R&W recognize Stacy's lousy behavior and are staying away.