Etiquette Hell

General Etiquette => Life...in general => Topic started by: FenigDurak on October 11, 2012, 05:46:20 PM

Title: Awkward situation with DF and planned wedding party - Update #20 - New Info #31
Post by: FenigDurak on October 11, 2012, 05:46:20 PM
I'm in the beginning stages of planning my wedding with my DF. We have booked a venue, paid the first installment, ordered my gown, chosen a bridal party and come November will begin the process of handling the rest of it. We're hosting a large event the weekend of Halloween, so our minds are a bit preoccupied at the moment.

Last night I went to a dance rehearsal with a friend and the Best Woman, my DF's close friend of more than 10 years. I knew getting into my rel@tionship with DF that he and Best Woman had dated more than a decade ago, but that it never left the awkward stage when they decided it was going nowhere. I've since become good friends with Best Woman.

After the rehearsal, the fee of us girls relaxed a bit with a glass of wine and some chatter. In the course of the night Best Woman asked me if DF still made large decisions without consulting anyone. She went on to say that when they were together he traded in his Land Rover and Lotus for a "big redneck truck" and bought a huge piece of land on the opposite side of town from the airport and all the lakes thus cramping her preferred lifestyle, which was a deal breaker for her.  She went on to say that she knew what DF was making back then, so while the money wasn't a concern, she just didn't want to cramp her lifestyle.

Stupidly I asked her what he was making back then even thought I knew what his salary is today. She grinned a said that DF would never want her to tell something like that. At the time I just shrugged and made a noncommittal response and sipped my wine.

Wrap all of that up with the nice bow of my nightmare last night (I woke up in a cold sweat and panic thought it had little to do with her I think), I've spent a good portion of my afternoon thinking on what Best Woman said. I suspect their rel@tionship was more serious than they both have told me, and while I know there is nothing going on between them now and I also believe that a person's past is just the road that led the to who they are today, this woman is a part of our lives now and is a planned member of our wedding.

So please, EHellions, give me some advice on how to handle this from here?
Title: Re: Awkward situation with DF and planned wedding party
Post by: ilrag on October 11, 2012, 05:59:38 PM
What is it that you need to handle?

You feel like your DF and his good friend were not honest with you about their relationship which is a decade old? Is it important to you to know the true extent of their relationship? Do you think sitting down and talking to him or her or them together will clear things up?

Do you want to know how much your DF made 10 years ago, or does it bother you that the friend was withholding information and rubbing it in your face?
Title: Re: Awkward situation with DF and planned wedding party
Post by: FenigDurak on October 11, 2012, 06:03:17 PM
Heh, wow, your questions have really put a brighter light on this situation for me. Yes, they are petty little details, and I feel like a right idiot for even caring.

It comes down to BW seemingly rubbing these things in my face when she has never done these things before. I also made sure before getting serious with DF that this past rel@tionship was indeed done as I did not want to move into a powder keg waiting to explode.
Title: Re: Awkward situation with DF and planned wedding party
Post by: ilrag on October 11, 2012, 06:08:48 PM
Oh I'm sorry, I wasn't trying to make you feel like an idiot, I was just trying to clarify.

It would bother me if some one was all HERE'S SOMETHING ABOUT YOUR HUSBAND THAT YOU DON'T KNOW AND I DO AND LET ME TAUNT YOU WITH IT. (Even if they didn't shout it  :) )

But if that is the issue (and it would be for me) I'd tell the girl and your DF that it was pretty obnoxious and you don't appreciate that. It sounds like she was just trying to mark her territory as important established friendship even though his status is changing.
Title: Re: Awkward situation with DF and planned wedding party
Post by: doodlemor on October 11, 2012, 06:10:10 PM
I think that BW is a bit jealous of your happiness, even though she doesn't want your DF.  Maybe she is just one of those people who likes to cause strife.

If I were you I would stay friendly and polite with her, but on a very superficial level.  If DF wanted her he would still be with her.  He wants you.

Everybody has a past.  Don't worry about his. 

Title: Re: Awkward situation with DF and planned wedding party
Post by: Surianne on October 11, 2012, 06:12:50 PM
The clarification really helps.  Knowing that it was her attitude that really irked you makes sense now.

If this is the first time she's ever spoken to you like that, I'd write it off as an off night, if you can.  It can be a little weird seeing someone you dated getting married, no matter the seriousness of the relationship, and she's trying to remind herself (and you) of her importance in his life.

If she does this more than once, though, I'd call her on it and ask her as a friend why she was speaking to you that way -- without involving your fiance.  I agree with ilrag that it's not acceptable and I would flat-out call her on it.

Title: Re: Awkward situation with DF and planned wedding party
Post by: SamiHami on October 11, 2012, 06:18:29 PM
I think Surianne's post is spot on, so I'm parking my pod with her.
Title: Re: Awkward situation with DF and planned wedding party
Post by: WillyNilly on October 11, 2012, 06:18:46 PM
I get your anxiety but I think its misplaced. Think about it. They told you they broke up because they were an awkard couple. Well having radically different lifestyles and life plans would definitely fit that bill. But just because they were awkward doesn't mean they weren't open about stuff like money.

I bet there's a little bit of BW that's sad & jealous you two are getting married. Not because she wants him romanticly, but because she knows as your lives progress, and your family grows (if that's in the cards for you) her role will lessen. Its always a bit bitter sweet for your best friend to marry someone else, because it means their spouse is their best friend & first priority now. Maybe you have been you DF's best friend & first priority for a while in reality, but the marriage part makes it more 'in her face'.
Title: Re: Awkward situation with DF and planned wedding party
Post by: CrazyDaffodilLady on October 11, 2012, 06:20:06 PM
Whatever her motives were, I don't think it was her place to tell you what your DF's salary was, so she wasn't out of line to wiggle out of that. 

Title: Re: Awkward situation with DF and planned wedding party
Post by: NyaChan on October 11, 2012, 06:22:37 PM
Whatever her motives were, I don't think it was her place to tell you what your DF's salary was, so she wasn't out of line to wiggle out of that. 



I can get that and agree with Surianne on this one - but what stuck in my craw about what she said was the pretty clear implication that OP's DF was fine with the best woman knowing how much he made, but that he wouldn't want OP, his fiance, to know.  It is like rubbing in something that implies he trusts her more than OP.
Title: Re: Awkward situation with DF and planned wedding party
Post by: Shoo on October 11, 2012, 06:23:46 PM
Whatever her motives were, I don't think it was her place to tell you what your DF's salary was, so she wasn't out of line to wiggle out of that. 



I think she WAS out of line that she said she knew his salary and that he wouldn't want her to share it with the OP.  That implied a level of intimacy existed that the OP was unaware of.  Furthermore, this woman practically rubbed it in the OP's face.  How insulting.

I would not be okay with this woman continuing to have a place in my husband's life.  OP, you are a better woman than I if you are not bothered by this.
Title: Re: Awkward situation with DF and planned wedding party
Post by: MOM21SON on October 11, 2012, 06:25:32 PM
I think that BW is a bit jealous of your happiness, even though she doesn't want your DF.  Maybe she is just one of those people who likes to cause strife.

If I were you I would stay friendly and polite with her, but on a very superficial level.  If DF wanted her he would still be with her.  He wants you.

Everybody has a past.  Don't worry about his.

POD right here.  However, I think she is a lot jealous.  She is making her stance.  "I knew him first and I know far more than you do."   

I would seriously reconsider the "good friend" status.
Title: Re: Awkward situation with DF and planned wedding party
Post by: JenJay on October 11, 2012, 06:26:11 PM
It would bother me if someone in DH's life grinned smugly at me and insinuated they had a secret that DH would want kept from me. I wouldn't like it if one of my friends did that to DH, either.

If you're really curious about his earnings, ask him. If the concern is her "we have a secret" attitude I'd drop it for now but keep my ears sharp in case it happens again. Then I'd give her a big smile and say "Friend, don't be silly. Of course my husband wouldn't care if I knew what his salary was YEARS ago!" If she persists in keeping it a big secret she'll just make herself look foolish.
Title: Re: Awkward situation with DF and planned wedding party
Post by: Amava on October 11, 2012, 06:45:04 PM
I would handle this by not rewarding her with attention. Just make non-committal "mhm"-noises if she talks about the past. Show her exactly how much relevance it has to the present, and how much interest you have in it: none. And if that's not completely true, fake it.  :D
Title: Re: Awkward situation with DF and planned wedding party
Post by: demarco on October 11, 2012, 07:06:06 PM
Best Woman's remark was very disrespectful to the OP.  If I were in the OP's position, I would discuss it with my fiancÚ and tell him I was uncomfortable with it.  My fiance's response to my concerns would tell me a lot. 

I would never be comfortable around this woman again.
Title: Re: Awkward situation with DF and planned wedding party
Post by: gramma dishes on October 11, 2012, 07:29:51 PM
That's a very strange conversation.  I have to admit it would make me very uncomfortable.  I think your husband's 'friend' is indeed trying to one up you.  It reminds me of grade school --  (said in a singsong way) "I know something you don't know and I'm not going to tell you."

She most definitely is trying to imply that their relationship was closer than you have been led to believe.  I personally doubt if that's true, but I do think that's what she's trying to make you think. 

I agree with demarco.  I'd ask.  I'd start by saying "You know, Hon, the other night your Best Woman said the strangest thing.  I'm sure she didn't mean anything by it, but I just thought it was a very unusual thing to say.  She said (insert commentary).  I confess to being curious about why should would say something like that."
Title: Re: Awkward situation with DF and planned wedding party
Post by: TootsNYC on October 11, 2012, 07:36:30 PM
I'm going to agree w/ Gramma Dishes--I'd sound out my fiance a little bit.

For one, I think it's quite likely that she's blowing it up--if they broke up so early, why would it matter to her how he spent HIS money? He didn't HAVE anybody with whom he should consult. Certainly not his not-quite-a-girlfriend, right?

So I'd want to sound out things from my guy's perspective.

it would influence how I reacted.

if she was inflating her role in his life at that time, I'd be less forgiving

If she wasn't inflating her role in his life, then I could say to my DH, "Well, I wish you'd been a bit more honest with me." And it might make me the tiniest bit more understanding of her.

Either way, I think it's appropriate to get markedly cooler.
Title: Re: Awkward situation with DF and planned wedding party
Post by: Hmmmmm on October 11, 2012, 08:08:53 PM
I'm going to agree w/ Gramma Dishes--I'd sound out my fiance a little bit.

For one, I think it's quite likely that she's blowing it up--if they broke up so early, why would it matter to her how he spent HIS money? He didn't HAVE anybody with whom he should consult. Certainly not his not-quite-a-girlfriend, right?

So I'd want to sound out things from my guy's perspective.

it would influence how I reacted.

if she was inflating her role in his life at that time, I'd be less forgiving

If she wasn't inflating her role in his life, then I could say to my DH, "Well, I wish you'd been a bit more honest with me." And it might make me the tiniest bit more understanding of her.
POD to this.  I thought the same.  In a "dating" relationship, your BF's decision about living locations or investsments shouldn't cramp your "style". 

I think she is trying really hard to demonstrate that she ha a history with your DF that you will never share.  Maybe the wine brought it out, but she is definately trying to mark her territory.
Title: Re: Awkward situation with DF and planned wedding party
Post by: buvezdevin on October 11, 2012, 08:25:17 PM
While I agree that the whole "the man you are about to marry would not want me to share what I know of his previous income (or other data points)" was rude *and* odd, what bothers me is that the previous girlfriend-long term close friend opened up the discussion with "does my long term best friend that you are about to marry still make big decisions without consulting anyone".

That sounds like "does he consult you on big decisions, I doubt it and, oh - when he didn't consult me on one that killed my interest in him as a romantic partner."  Which is even more insulting with the follow on "he would not want me to tell you past details".
Title: Re: Awkward situation with DF and planned wedding party
Post by: NutellaNut on October 11, 2012, 08:58:05 PM
Buvezdevin, that part stuck out to me, too.  I think the whole episode seems like manipulation on the BW's part to place doubts in the OP's head.  It may well be subconscious, not on purpose, but it sounds to me like BW *is* uncomfortable with DF getting married and is acting out about it.

OP, I like Gramma Dishes' way of sounding out the DF. 
Title: Re: Awkward situation with DF and planned wedding party
Post by: FenigDurak on October 11, 2012, 09:32:29 PM
Thanks for all the responses, everyone. Ilrag, you didn't make me feel like an idiot, I was making myself feel like an idiot by stressing over something so trivial. I'm not usually so emotionally responsive, but there was a time in my past where there were a lot of drama llamas who delighted in stirring up trouble, so I guess I'm a little hypersensitive to these things.

I ske with DF over dinner (twice-baked potatoes, yumm!) about what was said. I approached it from the standpoint that her attitude seemed very odd for her. I told him what was said, and that I believe he had been honest with me. His response was apologetic that BW was acting out of character. He said that a little over ten years ago he and BW were the single ones in their circle of friends, and that led him to pursue her as girlfriend potential. She turned him down. They've been friends ever since.

He offered to take her out of the party if it made me uncomfortable. I suggestd that she is likely feeling left out as the only single girl in our circle these days (even her younger brother is in a long term pairing) and perhaps just speaking out of character. The wine didn't help either.  I closed that I didn't need a blow by blow, but rather a little reassurance that it's OK to be concerned with what she said.

He followed that up with showing me his Social Security report from the last 15 years. Lol
Title: Re: Awkward situation with DF and planned wedding party - Update #20
Post by: NyaChan on October 11, 2012, 09:40:24 PM
Glad you guys had a good talk.  I think your response to it was a very fair and smart.
Title: Re: Awkward situation with DF and planned wedding party - Update #20
Post by: buvezdevin on October 11, 2012, 09:41:11 PM
Wonderful update, and best wishes to you and your DF.
Title: Re: Awkward situation with DF and planned wedding party - Update #20
Post by: greencat on October 11, 2012, 10:25:52 PM
I wonder if it's possible that your fiance's idea of how much of a relationship they had 10 years ago and her idea of how much of a relationship they had were rather different.

However, your fiance sounds like a keeper!
Title: Re: Awkward situation with DF and planned wedding party - Update #20
Post by: CluelessBride on October 11, 2012, 11:05:34 PM
Just a thought: since you were with a group of people is it possible that she meant that your fiance wouldn't want her announcing his income to the world?  The conversation is still a bit awkward, but I could see how it could start off fairly innocent and take a weird turn - especially under the influence of a glass or two of lip-loosening wine.

I think your fiance sounds wonderfully on top of things with his response though.  Can't lose with that :-)
Title: Re: Awkward situation with DF and planned wedding party
Post by: TootsNYC on October 12, 2012, 12:52:44 AM

He followed that up with showing me his Social Security report from the last 15 years. Lol

There's a guy who's serious about trust!!!

I like that.

(and yeah, maybe it was that she didn't want to reveal it to everyone else--though the whole, "does he still do this?" and the implication that somehow he was supposed to clear that purchase with ANYONE is sort of eye-rolling. I think she was trying to sort of establish that "hey, I was here first, even if I didn't stay.")
Title: Re: Awkward situation with DF and planned wedding party - Update #20
Post by: jedikaiti on October 12, 2012, 01:31:35 AM
I wonder if it's possible that your fiance's idea of how much of a relationship they had 10 years ago and her idea of how much of a relationship they had were rather different.

However, your fiance sounds like a keeper!

Definitely a keeper.

I wouldn't be surprised if her out of character behavior is this, or the whole staking her claim to her friend because she feels threatened that he's getting married, or the last singleton standing discomfort (or some combination) is behind her claim. I'll place my bets on the last two.

Clearly, their relationship was not all that serious at the time, if he was making major purchases without input. I mean, if I were in a relationship that was well established and I thought was headed to the long term, I'd get a little input. Maybe not veto power, but an opinion. Heck, if I felt they knew me well enough (or had a useful perspective), I might get input  from them regardless of relationship. But to buy property without any input indicates it was really new (ie, casual dating at most) or headed nowhere fast.
Title: Re: Awkward situation with DF and planned wedding party - Update #20
Post by: Gyburc on October 12, 2012, 05:04:57 AM
OP, I'm glad you and your DF had a good talk, and I hope everything goes wonderfully well for you!

Regarding the BW, however, she might have been having a bad day. But I would still watch my back around her, just in case.
Title: Re: Awkward situation with DF and planned wedding party - Update #20
Post by: JenJay on October 12, 2012, 07:01:32 AM
Great update! I can tell you from experience that having a partner who can calmly and rationally discuss tense issues makes ALL the difference. I'm happy for you both that you found that with each other!  :)
Title: Re: Awkward situation with DF and planned wedding party
Post by: ettiquit on October 12, 2012, 08:00:02 AM


He followed that up with showing me his Social Security report from the last 15 years. Lol

LOL - that's awesome!  Everything he said was spot on, and I'm glad for you.

BW seems to have a touch of resentment/jealously, and I don't think you're over-reacting at all. 
Title: Re: Awkward situation with DF and planned wedding party - Update #20
Post by: norrina on October 12, 2012, 08:55:53 AM
I wonder if it's possible that your fiance's idea of how much of a relationship they had 10 years ago and her idea of how much of a relationship they had were rather different.

However, your fiance sounds like a keeper!

Definitely a keeper.

I wouldn't be surprised if her out of character behavior is this, or the whole staking her claim to her friend because she feels threatened that he's getting married, or the last singleton standing discomfort (or some combination) is behind her claim. I'll place my bets on the last two.

Clearly, their relationship was not all that serious at the time, if he was making major purchases without input. I mean, if I were in a relationship that was well established and I thought was headed to the long term, I'd get a little input. Maybe not veto power, but an opinion. Heck, if I felt they knew me well enough (or had a useful perspective), I might get input  from them regardless of relationship. But to buy property without any input indicates it was really new (ie, casual dating at most) or headed nowhere fast.

RE: the bolded.

Years ago, I had been involved with a man for almost 2 years, but it had been a bit on-again/off-again, and the on-again times often looked more like a casual fling than a true relationship, as my ex had a bit of a problem with commitment and "labels"...  ::) I was in the process of becoming a homeowner, and I wanted him to look at a potential house before I made an offer on it, not because we were so serious that I wouldn't buy it if he didn't like the feng shui, but because he was a carpenter by trade and had some knowledge of potential problems to look for in a house. He dithered about setting a time for a showing though, so I got fed up with the delay and made the offer, knowing that I would be requiring an inspection contingency by a licensed inspector anyhow.

Maybe a month after closing, I decided that with no landlord to answer to, I wanted a pet. I found a lady with a litter of kittens for adoption, and brought 2 home. On the way home, I stopped at ex's mother's house, where he was living, to show off the little guys, and he flipped his lid that I had become a pet owner without so much as a by his leave. I was simply flabbergasted that he thought he should have any say in the matter, we didn't live together after all and he couldn't be bothered to have an opinion when I asked for it so why did he think he should have one now.

He did end up eventually moving in (right about the time his mom moved out of the area), and we were briefly engaged (he proposed when he realized I was on the precipice of leaving him forever, the proposal only postponed the inevitable). So ultimately, yes, we did end up with a relationship serious enough that we should have been consulting each other about real estate purchases and pet adoptions, but at the time that the events occurred, I did not and still do not consider that our relationship was that serious. Apparently he felt differently though.
Title: Re: Awkward situation with DF and planned wedding party - Update #20
Post by: FenigDurak on October 15, 2012, 03:14:05 AM
Ugh, it seems to continue.

I felt so great about everything after speaking with DF and reading the feedback here, that I had no reservations about seeing BW at another dance rehearsal this weekend. Unfortunately, she seems to have taken a different tack in her commentary now.

Bit of background: I'm a professional costume designer, degree, experience and all. BW is a professional lighting designer with similar credentials.
The choreographer of our routine and producer of the dance show we're working toward is the significant other of BW's younger brother, so they are family. Rehearsal was at this woman's house.

Shortly after I arrived, but before rehearsal began (the last two were very late, but that's unimportant) BW was going over her costume progress with me. Not uncommon as the girls will seek advice from me. She was making good strides, but commented that all of our gloves should contrast with the costumes to be more visible (neon yellow with a baby blue dress, etc). I reminded BW that I had already completed my costume, as had the featured dancer (who is currently under employed) as well as the third dancer (a college student who laments her poverty frequently), so purchasing new accessories so shortly before the performance was not likely feasible. I added that with the various commissions and fashion show scheduled to be completed that same weekend, I was too busy to make yet another trip to the costume store.

Her response was to say that she knows plenty of costume designers who make upwards of 6 figures a year...in NYC and LA.  I remarked that while that may be true, DF is very high up in his company and almost to a position where he could move, but not right now. Her response was to cooly add that DF would never leave his hometown (our city) or be so far from his family.  I said nothing in response as I didn't want to get dragged into another debate over who DF is now vs who he was 10+ years ago.

What she doesn't know is the DF looks forward to a change of professional scenery which would also allow me one as well. In the meantime I'm enjoying being self-employed.

I haven't had a chance to talk to DF about this yet as he was in bed when I got home, but at this point it's just talk from BW and I wonder if I even need to just yet.  Thoughts?

Edited to add: I forgot to mention that BW loudly reminded everyone her thoughts on gloves about once an hour after the last 2 arrived. I kept reiterating my reply of already acquired costumes.
Title: Re: Awkward situation with DF and planned wedding party - Update #20 - New Info #31
Post by: greencat on October 15, 2012, 03:49:40 AM
I'm a little confused by the jump from "changing the costumes now is impractical" based on you being busy and the other girls being unable to afford it, to a comment on the salary of costume designers elsewhere.  Was there something else in between, or did BW make the non sequiter?  Then I guess you said something like "I'd move, but DF can't transfer until he gets the promotion."

Unfortunately, it looks like BW needs to be moved from the "friend" category of interactions to the "rude/toxic" one.

Instead of responding to her statements with any more information, you need to engage the E-Hell battle plan - Why would I want to do that, What an interesting assumption, Won't you have some bean dip, So kind of you to take an interest, and I'm afraid that won't be possible all could have been deployed to terminate her unwanted behavior.

What I see her doing is trying to one-up you on how well she knows your DF by virtue of being friends with him for so long - she seems to be having trouble dealing with the idea that there is a woman who is so much closer to your DF that he's going to marry her.  In order to avoid coming across as a Bridezilla, you are going to have to stay very, very, very calm when you talk to your DF about her - but you do need to talk to him about her.  She's saying that kind of thing to your face - given that she's your fiance's close friend, what is she saying to your DF when you can't hear?




Title: Re: Awkward situation with DF and planned wedding party - Update #20 - New Info #31
Post by: PastryGoddess on October 15, 2012, 05:17:44 AM
POD to the above.  Especially the E-Hell battle plan.  By responding to her jibes you are giving her the idea that she has much more say in your lives than she does. And you are allowing her to get in your headspace and cause you stress.  This is not ok. You don't need to play that game.  When she makes odd/rude/toxic comments, you just need to reply with one of the patented e-Hell phrases


One of the things you can't change is the fact that she has known your DF for a very long time.  However, what she doesn't realize is that DF has moved on to a new future (you!) while she is still stuck in the past.  She is doing everything she can to stay relevant in his life and if that means making you feel bad, then oh well.


As many people have said on the site, it takes two people to play tug of war. 




Title: Re: Awkward situation with DF and planned wedding party - Update #20 - New Info #31
Post by: Just Lori on October 15, 2012, 06:02:03 AM
As tempting as it is to correct her assumptions, I think you'll get a lot more mileage out of a blank stare.  When she throws out these zingers, act as though you didn't even hear them.  Don't reward her with a reaction.

Title: Re: Awkward situation with DF and planned wedding party - Update #20 - New Info #31
Post by: buvezdevin on October 15, 2012, 07:51:05 AM
I especially agree that it is well worth speaking with your DF about her recent comment.

If she were a friend of your DF's with whom you would not necessarily be interacting on a regular basis, that would be a matter you could address with a blank stare and possibly nothing more.  As she is presumably a significant friend to your DF who *he* sees frequently, *and* she has been asked to be a significant member of the wedding party - your DF needs to be aware of her continuing comments which are awkward at best and suggestive of resentment/competitiveness at worst.

In your shoes I would want DF's thoughts on the matter, and how to address it - which may involve his speaking with her.

I'm also mildly cringing to imagine what the BW's toast at the wedding reception will sound like.
Title: Re: Awkward situation with DF and planned wedding party - Update #20 - New Info #31
Post by: CharlieBraun on October 15, 2012, 08:17:37 AM
I definitely think a reconsideration of her participation in the wedding party is in order.

Sometimes, groups of friends have a very specific social heirarchy and dynamic that has become so ingrained that it's taken as gospel.  Then, when late in the game the dynamic is changed, other people who have relied on their position in the heirarchy become very threatened and the results are somewhat akin to what is happening here.

By way of background, when my husband and I married, he was part of a group of people in our shared home town who had known each other, directly and by extension, for a number of years, since high school.  At the time that we married, they were all in their mid to late 30's.  DH was a late bloomer in life.  All of his "crowd" were married and many with kids, and there was only one single person, a woman, left in the circle.  DH was still figuring out where he fit professionally, having wanted to be a teacher for many years but, unable to afford college and needing to earn a living, was slogging it out one-class-at-a-time.  Meanwhile, the other singleton in the group, the female, was a teacher already.

When DH and I met and he told me his dreams, I said "go for it.  I make enough money for both of us."  He quit his dead-end job, went back to school full time, received multiple honors and graduated with highest marks, and walked out of school into a teaching position in a private school.  During that interim, he and I married.  So he went from being the "poor guy, never got his act together and is still alone" to achieving to his highest abilities and getting married.  In other words, he left his spot at the bottom of the heirarchy.

The woman in his group who was still single did exactly to me what BW is doing to you - attempting to erode my faith in my sweetie.  It worked exactly once.  The second time she tried it, my response was "I can't imagine why you think he wouldn't succeed."  (She had told me that, based on her experience, that DH was a "bad bet.")  After that, she would literally get up and leave any gathering when DH and I arrived.  The audacity of DH!  To upset the social order!

And so that is, IMO, what is happening here.  She feels unsteady in her place in the heirarchy, although I doubt that she can recognize it.  And since you were the catalyst for the change, her attempts to restore the prior order must begin and end with you.

Forget her.

Drop her from the bridal party - she does not truly wish you and your fiance well, and that is the primary requirement for a member of the wedding party.

Good luck.
Title: Re: Awkward situation with DF and planned wedding party - Update #20 - New Info #31
Post by: Cat-Fu on October 15, 2012, 10:07:50 AM
Ug, how annoying. It seems to me that she is trying to mark her "territory" as the woman who knows him best, however she is working with dated information. I don't know that I would go to extremes at this time; it's entirely possible that this is just a phase as she is truly forced to accept that your DF has changed and grown and has someone more important in his life than her. She might get over it, she might not. I'd take all of her comments as the eyeroll-worthy blustering that they are at this point, though.

Hopefully she doesn't escalate the territorial behavior to taking a wee on your DF.
Title: Re: Awkward situation with DF and planned wedding party - Update #20 - New Info #31
Post by: bopper on October 15, 2012, 10:18:56 AM
OP, I just want to say that I think it is good that you looked into what BW said because sometimes it has been known for a fiance to appear to be one thing and then truly be another.  But clearly you are finding that BW is the one who isn't what you thought.
Title: Re: Awkward situation with DF and planned wedding party - Update #20 - New Info #31
Post by: HonorH on October 15, 2012, 12:06:39 PM
Ug, how annoying. It seems to me that she is trying to mark her "territory" as the woman who knows him best, however she is working with dated information. I don't know that I would go to extremes at this time; it's entirely possible that this is just a phase as she is truly forced to accept that your DF has changed and grown and has someone more important in his life than her. She might get over it, she might not. I'd take all of her comments as the eyeroll-worthy blustering that they are at this point, though.

Hopefully she doesn't escalate the territorial behavior to taking a wee on your DF.

I'm parking my pod here. With him getting married, she's unsure of her place in his life and is trying to assert that she, not you, knows him best. She's wrong, but pointing it out is unlikely to go well. Brush off her jibes, because they come from a place of insecurity. If DF still wants her as BW, keep her. At this point, kicking her out of the bridal party would likely end a friendship that's been in place for many years. Just forge ahead. If she keeps getting obnoxious, call her on it in an "I'm getting this weird vibe from you lately" way.
Title: Re: Awkward situation with DF and planned wedding party - Update #20 - New Info #31
Post by: FenigDurak on October 15, 2012, 12:23:16 PM
CharlieBraun, what you posted strikes a very serious chord with me. Before moving out here to be with DF, as I was finishing up my degree, I hadn't yet met BW, but knew they had briefly dated and still hung out. As I'd been in a position in my youth of being the reason a member of a social hierarchy suddenly changed status and all the other friends were very upset, I spoke at great length about it with DF. He assured me even then that back then they were casual at best and when he expressed interest in becoming more serious, her response was that he felt more like a brother and it was never going to happen, so he moved on. Coincidentally, about a year after that is when he traded in the 2 impractical cars for the more sensible truck.

Then after moving out here and meeting and spending more time with BW, I came to see there really was nothing there between them so I put it out of my mind. BW even started dating another member of our group. She and I would get together for lunch and shopping when she was in town from work, and admittedly I was truly content.

There is a group meeting scheduled for Thursday as our event and all it's little pieces have to come together the Friday before Halloween. Then another rehearsal on Saturday. I'll have plenty of time to practice how I'm to respond before spending a whole weekend with her around during the event.
Title: Re: Awkward situation with DF and planned wedding party - Update #20 - New Info #31
Post by: JenJay on October 15, 2012, 01:16:18 PM
I don't think BW is trying to undermine you because she dislikes you or wants to be with your soon-to-be DH. I think maybe she's always envisioned herself as his "the one who got away" and enjoyed that bump to her self-esteem and now she's realizing "Oh wait, maybe not wanting to be together was mutual? Well.... whatever. I'm special to him, too!"

I don't think she's a threat to you or your marriage at all. That said, she's being rude to you and it needs to stop. If it happens again I'd probably take her aside and say "BW, you've been strange with me lately, almost hostile. Is there a problem?" and see how she acts once you've called her on it.
Title: Re: Awkward situation with DF and planned wedding party - Update #20 - New Info #31
Post by: Roses on October 15, 2012, 01:30:21 PM
I had a very similar experience with XDH.  His BW was happy to be a part of our wedding, but as the time drew near, the jabs and behind the back comments got worse and worse.  Unfortunately it didn't stop after we were married.  It didn't have anything to do with our divorce, but looking back, I wouldn't have had her in our wedding had I known how she was going to behave. 

She appears to be having issues accepting your role and adjusting behavior accordingly.  I would seriously reconsider having her in your wedding.  You both should have people up there standing with you that are good friends and supportive of BOTH of you. 
Title: Re: Awkward situation with DF and planned wedding party - Update #20 - New Info #31
Post by: Roe on October 15, 2012, 01:49:14 PM
BW reminds me of Julia Robert's character in the movie "My Best Friend's Wedding." 

And yeah, now is the time to rethink BW's role in the wedding.
Title: Re: Awkward situation with DF and planned wedding party - Update #20 - New Info #31
Post by: FauxFoodist on October 15, 2012, 01:56:04 PM
CharlieBraun, what you posted strikes a very serious chord with me. Before moving out here to be with DF, as I was finishing up my degree, I hadn't yet met BW, but knew they had briefly dated and still hung out. As I'd been in a position in my youth of being the reason a member of a social hierarchy suddenly changed status and all the other friends were very upset, I spoke at great length about it with DF. He assured me even then that back then they were casual at best and when he expressed interest in becoming more serious, her response was that he felt more like a brother and it was never going to happen, so he moved on. Coincidentally, about a year after that is when he traded in the 2 impractical cars for the more sensible truck.

Then after moving out here and meeting and spending more time with BW, I came to see there really was nothing there between them so I put it out of my mind. BW even started dating another member of our group. She and I would get together for lunch and shopping when she was in town from work, and admittedly I was truly content.

There is a group meeting scheduled for Thursday as our event and all it's little pieces have to come together the Friday before Halloween. Then another rehearsal on Saturday. I'll have plenty of time to practice how I'm to respond before spending a whole weekend with her around during the event.

Let me add my pod that it's time to rethink her role in your wedding.  It sounds like it's time for DF to intervene since this is his friend who's disrespecting his future wife.

Also, if she brings up again things that were true about your DF from ten years ago, it should be fair to state, "You do realize people can and often do change from what their goals or interests were a decade prior?  So, I'm really excited about how my costume has turned out; blah blah blah."
Title: Re: Awkward situation with DF and planned wedding party - Update #20 - New Info #31
Post by: JeanFromBNA on October 15, 2012, 02:19:58 PM
1.  She's concerned about money.  2.  She feels stuck to the past.  3.  She also may feel like life is passing her by (heavy assumption here, but possible).

None of this is enviable.  How sad that she can't be happy for her old and her new friends.  I suggest that you take the lead and ask her if everything is all right.  If that doesn't feel comfortable, then just ignore, bean dip, redirect.  I wouldn't tell your DF about every transgression every time it happens.  If it goes too far, then sit him down, explain all of the problems and how you tried to handle them, and suggest some alternative arrangements for your wedding. 
Title: Re: Awkward situation with DF and planned wedding party - Update #20 - New Info #31
Post by: Mikayla on October 15, 2012, 03:02:26 PM
I say it's time to return to DF's question about whether you'd feel more comfortable if she's asked to step down.  Change your answer to "yes".

Even though it appears obvious that this is coming from her head and not his heart, it has the potential to wear you down over time, and there's no reason for you to be subjected to this. 

It's also your DF's job to handle this.  His long time friend is going out of her way to make you miserable.  Hopefully, he'll know what to say and if doesn't, you need to ask him why. 
Title: Re: Awkward situation with DF and planned wedding party - Update #20 - New Info #31
Post by: doodlemor on October 15, 2012, 03:16:49 PM
I say it's time to return to DF's question about whether you'd feel more comfortable if she's asked to step down.  Change your answer to "yes".

Even though it appears obvious that this is coming from her head and not his heart, it has the potential to wear you down over time, and there's no reason for you to be subjected to this. 

It's also your DF's job to handle this.  His long time friend is going out of her way to make you miserable.  Hopefully, he'll know what to say and if doesn't, you need to ask him why.

This.  Absolutely, get this woman out of your wedding.  If she is making you miserable now, just think about what she will do to make you unhappy and spoil your big day. 
Title: Re: Awkward situation with DF and planned wedding party - Update #20 - New Info #31
Post by: bonyk on October 15, 2012, 05:55:34 PM
If she's truly close enough to future DH to be his BW, he should be able to have a heart-to-heart with her about the way she's treating you.  If they're not close enough to have a real conversation, then they're not close enough for her to be the BW.
Title: Re: Awkward situation with DF and planned wedding party - Update #20 - New Info #31
Post by: buvezdevin on October 15, 2012, 06:37:55 PM
OP, I am wondering how BW was asked to be BW - is she clearly your DF's best friend, did your DF think of her for the role or did she suggest it?  The answers would not mitigate the attitude BW has recently displayed, I am just wondering if she really is a "good" friend who is perhaps unaware that her issues are showing, or if she in any way sought to be named BW.
Title: Re: Awkward situation with DF and planned wedding party - Update #20 - New Info #31
Post by: jpcher on October 15, 2012, 07:27:36 PM
If she's truly close enough to future DH to be his BW, he should be able to have a heart-to-heart with her about the way she's treating you.  If they're not close enough to have a real conversation, then they're not close enough for her to be the BW.

DF already showed his shining stars. It sounds like he will take back his request for her to be his BW if it really bothers you.

It's up to you to take the stand and say either "Guess what? Beyotch. No matter what you say, I win." (not particularly e-hell approved :P) or take the higher road and bean-dip whenever BW tries to take the low road.


I suggest that you talk to DF and let him clearly know that this is a problem for you. You already brought it up and you tried, again, to be on the polite side with BW but it just isn't working out.

A PPer mentioned "What is her toast going to be like?" Yeah, I wouldn't want to go there.

 
Title: Re: Awkward situation with DF and planned wedding party - Update #20 - New Info #31
Post by: NyaChan on October 15, 2012, 07:41:04 PM
Honestly, I'd probably have a hard time not just laughing at her when she says stuff like that.  I mean really, your friend is marrying this woman, joining his life with her, and you think you know more about his plans for the future than she does?  Let her say it if it doesn't bother you too much (in which case rethink the whole wedding party thing maybe?)- she is just making herself look stupid. 
Title: Re: Awkward situation with DF and planned wedding party - Update #20 - New Info #31
Post by: LifeOnPluto on October 15, 2012, 09:26:59 PM
Hmm... it's hard to tell what's going on with the BW. It could be just some temporary insecurity that her best friend is getting married, and she's worried about her place in his life. Or it could mask something deeper - eg maybe she's realised she has strong feelings for him or something?

Whatever, the case, I agree with this:

If she's truly close enough to future DH to be his BW, he should be able to have a heart-to-heart with her about the way she's treating you.  If they're not close enough to have a real conversation, then they're not close enough for her to be the BW.


Your DF should ideally talk to her about what's going on. I wouldn't chuck her out of the bridal party just yet.
Title: Re: Awkward situation with DF and planned wedding party - Update #20 - New Info #31
Post by: jedikaiti on October 15, 2012, 09:33:23 PM
Hmm... it's hard to tell what's going on with the BW. It could be just some temporary insecurity that her best friend is getting married, and she's worried about her place in his life. Or it could mask something deeper - eg maybe she's realised she has strong feelings for him or something?

Whatever, the case, I agree with this:

If she's truly close enough to future DH to be his BW, he should be able to have a heart-to-heart with her about the way she's treating you.  If they're not close enough to have a real conversation, then they're not close enough for her to be the BW.


Your DF should ideally talk to her about what's going on. I wouldn't chuck her out of the bridal party just yet.

Perhaps a come-to-$Diety talk would knock some sense back into her. I'll second the notion that STBDH needs to have a "Look, why are you suddenly being so utterly bizarre?" chat with her. Her reaction to THAT will hopefully tell you if it's temporary insanity or someone you both might want to back away from.
Title: Re: Awkward situation with DF and planned wedding party - Update #20 - New Info #31
Post by: FenigDurak on October 16, 2012, 01:20:13 AM
I think maybe she's always envisioned herself as his "the one who got away" and enjoyed that bump to her self-esteem

Interesting tidbit: I met DF 6 years ago through a mutual friend. We dated a little, but I lived in a mountainous state and was a college student and he was well established in his home state. Soon after we started a long distance fling, I was accepted to transfer from state school to prestigious private university, so we stopped dating. A few years later I met another mutual friend in Albuquerque to be extras in a Simon Pegg film. Through talking to her I reinitiated contact with DF, and through conversation that summer he told me that I was "the one that got away."  Fortunately for us both, we started up again as I was entering my last year of university time and had quite a few frequent flier miles accumulated.


OP, I am wondering how BW was asked to be BW

Sometime after DF and I started talking marriage, we were out with our large group for St Patricks Day. I corralled my three best girlfriends and one guy friend whom I felt I could trust with anything and who had been supportive and supported and who helped me be my best and asked if they would consider standing up with me should the need arise. Three said yes without hesitation, BW said that I may have to fight DF for her. I thought nothing of it at the time, as our group tends toward odd humor most of the time, and acquiesced when DF agreed that he wanted BW and his 2 brothers. 


Since our big Halloween event is in 2 weekends and the wedding isn't until May, I've decided to let things hang where they are for now, let the big ball of stress pass and then see where BWs mouth takes her. If it relents, then I know it was stress related. If not, then DF and I have some rearranging to do. BTW, DF agrees that it's odd that BW is operating with 10+ year old information and over inflating their past ties.
Title: Re: Awkward situation with DF and planned wedding party - Update #20 - New Info #31
Post by: rashea on October 16, 2012, 07:53:28 AM
My only concern with that plan, is whether she'll then start acting up around the wedding. While it's your wedding, so it shouldn't be too much stress for her, I'd hate for her to start acting up again just when you need her support. I think it might be worth talking to her either way, even if the message is, "hey, I know you were stressed, but watch how you take it out on FenigDurak."
Title: Re: Awkward situation with DF and planned wedding party - Update #20 - New Info #31
Post by: Shoo on October 16, 2012, 08:47:25 AM
I find myself wondering *why* this woman is your fiance's "best friend."  Why did he pick her to be the one to stand up for him at the most important event of his life?  He has no one else he could pick?  It's hard to imagine that THIS woman is the best friend he's got. 
Title: Re: Awkward situation with DF and planned wedding party - Update #20 - New Info #31
Post by: TurtleDove on October 16, 2012, 09:13:49 AM
I'm with Shoo - if I understood correctly, your DF chose BW to be his "best man" and his brothers are simply attendants?  I would be kinda upset if I were the brothers! Either way, I am sorry BW is causing trouble for you.  Hopefully she is simply unaware of how she is acting and coming across and once she is "confronted" she will shape up!
Title: Re: Awkward situation with DF and planned wedding party - Update #20 - New Info #31
Post by: bopper on October 16, 2012, 09:22:28 AM
BW reminds me of Julia Robert's character in the movie "My Best Friend's Wedding." 

And yeah, now is the time to rethink BW's role in the wedding.

I was thinking the same thing.
Title: Re: Awkward situation with DF and planned wedding party - Update #20 - New Info #31
Post by: wyliefool on October 16, 2012, 09:33:47 AM
BW reminds me of Julia Robert's character in the movie "My Best Friend's Wedding." 

And yeah, now is the time to rethink BW's role in the wedding.

I was thinking the same thing.

Me three. In fact I was thinking 'send her a dvd of that movie.' Or maybe just a youtube link to the climactic scene where she admits the guy didn't choose her.
Title: Re: Awkward situation with DF and planned wedding party - Update #20 - New Info #31
Post by: LifeOnPluto on October 16, 2012, 09:30:35 PM
I'm with Shoo - if I understood correctly, your DF chose BW to be his "best man" and his brothers are simply attendants?  I would be kinda upset if I were the brothers! Either way, I am sorry BW is causing trouble for you.  Hopefully she is simply unaware of how she is acting and coming across and once she is "confronted" she will shape up!

Slightly off-topic, but maybe he didn't want to choose between his brothers? Eg make one brother the Best Man, and the other brother "just" a Groomsman. So this seemed like a fair solution?
Title: Re: Awkward situation with DF and planned wedding party - Update #20 - New Info #31
Post by: cabbagegirl28 on October 16, 2012, 09:47:00 PM
I'm with Shoo - if I understood correctly, your DF chose BW to be his "best man" and his brothers are simply attendants?  I would be kinda upset if I were the brothers! Either way, I am sorry BW is causing trouble for you.  Hopefully she is simply unaware of how she is acting and coming across and once she is "confronted" she will shape up!

Slightly off-topic, but maybe he didn't want to choose between his brothers? Eg make one brother the Best Man, and the other brother "just" a Groomsman. So this seemed like a fair solution?

On topic with the slightly off-topic: I've heard it suggested this way for girls. Generally, if you have one sister with whom you have a good relationship, she should be your MOH, while friends are bridesmaids. More than one sister where there's not an obvious choice: Pick your best friend to be MOH, and your sisters are bridesmaids. That way they're on the same "level".

Not that I would necessarily do it this way, but it's something I've heard.

On topic with original: I would also ask DF to remove BW from the wedding party. She's trying to grasp at straws for a relationship that will never be. IMO, that probably won't end well, unless a serious talking-to brings her to her senses.
Title: Re: Awkward situation with DF and planned wedding party - Update #20 - New Info #31
Post by: FauxFoodist on October 17, 2012, 01:43:26 PM
I'm with Shoo - if I understood correctly, your DF chose BW to be his "best man" and his brothers are simply attendants?  I would be kinda upset if I were the brothers! Either way, I am sorry BW is causing trouble for you.  Hopefully she is simply unaware of how she is acting and coming across and once she is "confronted" she will shape up!

Slightly off-topic, but maybe he didn't want to choose between his brothers? Eg make one brother the Best Man, and the other brother "just" a Groomsman. So this seemed like a fair solution?

It's also possible he's not close to his brothers.  I have a friend who selected a mutual friend as best man.  His two brothers weren't even groomsmen, but they did participate by helping out with seating.  I can't blame him for not wanting them to be best man or, even, groomsmen (I've known them for over twenty years; they are not nice people -- they were disparaing my friend the morning of the wedding as they filled themselves up on the breakfast Friend and Bride were paying for, not to mention Friend and Bride paid for their outfit rentals, lodging and airfare to the tune of two seats apiece for them because they are really big guys).
Title: Re: Awkward situation with DF and planned wedding party - Update #20 - New Info #31
Post by: wolfie on October 17, 2012, 03:21:28 PM
I'm with Shoo - if I understood correctly, your DF chose BW to be his "best man" and his brothers are simply attendants?  I would be kinda upset if I were the brothers! Either way, I am sorry BW is causing trouble for you.  Hopefully she is simply unaware of how she is acting and coming across and once she is "confronted" she will shape up!


not everyone is close to their siblings. None of mine were even members of my bridal party.
Title: Re: Awkward situation with DF and planned wedding party - Update #20 - New Info #31
Post by: pickles50 on October 17, 2012, 08:20:28 PM
Talk to your husband to be and see what his take is on the situation. IMO that was a pretty rude move on her end with what seems like some jealous motives. Seems like she went out of her way to bring up something so it could lead up to this snarky comment. See how your husband reacts to the comment if he sides with her it will tell you a lot. He should side with you as you ARE to be his future wife. I know my significant other would not be pleased to know someone so near and dear to him would act that way toward me. Maybe I am a pessimist but from personal experience I am leary of woman who very close to married men (especially seeing as there was a past)...I got burned that way even after everyone told me I had NOTHING to worry about...
Title: Re: Awkward situation with DF and planned wedding party - Update #20 - New Info #31
Post by: FenigDurak on October 18, 2012, 11:21:23 AM
In reply to questions why one my DF's brothers isn't best man: he has two younger brothers and all 3 of them are very different people. He grew up alongside Middle Brother, but Youngest Brother is the type to be offended that he has a lesser role than Middle Brother.  Granted Youngest Brother is also a type to be surly even on the best of days, but I'll sit on that story for another time.

Tonight is a group meeting to nail down the logistics of the event followed by another dance rehearsal. I've spoken with my Bridesman to gain any unique pearls of wisdom he may have that would keep my frame of mind in a happier place and he reminded me that BW is a beautiful woman with a major fatal flaw: she is all about the finer things. Expensive liquors, designer clothes (but always indie designers that few others have heard of as we'll as big names), the priciest of restaurants, and she talks a length about these things. She also believes that she has a great deal of genius to share with her friends.

Please don't misunderstand. She is a lot of fun to be around and has a great deal of energy and spunk. But Bridesman reminded me that no matter what BW says she is neither the right woman for DF and that chances were she was thinking that she was sharing knowledge and advice but in an unfortunate and pretentious way.
Title: Re: Awkward situation with DF and planned wedding party - Update #20 - New Info #31
Post by: Twik on October 18, 2012, 02:06:09 PM
If she's truly close enough to future DH to be his BW, he should be able to have a heart-to-heart with her about the way she's treating you.  If they're not close enough to have a real conversation, then they're not close enough for her to be the BW.

I agree. "BW, I have to tell you something. You're making my fiancee unhappy, and treating her rather badly. Is there a reason for this? If not, can I rely on you to be easy-going and cheerful for the rest of the wedding, and not make cracks about you and me dating? Because, to tell the truth, it sounds rather pathetic - almost as if you wished you were marrying me instead."

She probably isn't pining for him as the love of her life. But she may be feeling, "there's a guy I might have married going off the market, and I'm still alone. I'm scared I'll never find anyone, so I'll take out my anxiety on his fiancee."
Title: Re: Awkward situation with DF and planned wedding party - Update #20 - New Info #31
Post by: HermioneGranger on October 18, 2012, 02:16:19 PM
I'm with Shoo - if I understood correctly, your DF chose BW to be his "best man" and his brothers are simply attendants?  I would be kinda upset if I were the brothers! Either way, I am sorry BW is causing trouble for you.  Hopefully she is simply unaware of how she is acting and coming across and once she is "confronted" she will shape up!


not everyone is close to their siblings. None of mine were even members of my bridal party.

Mine wasn't even invited to my wedding.