Etiquette Hell

A Civil World. Off-topic discussions on a variety of topics. Guests, register for forum membership to see all the boards. => Trans-Atlantic Knowledge Exchange => Topic started by: Flora Louise on November 02, 2012, 03:00:19 PM

Title: Sun of York
Post by: Flora Louise on November 02, 2012, 03:00:19 PM
Am I the only one interested in this story?

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/24/world/europe/discovery-of-skeleton-puts-richard-iii-in-battle-again.html?pagewanted=all (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/24/world/europe/discovery-of-skeleton-puts-richard-iii-in-battle-again.html?pagewanted=all)

Have the remains now been confirmed and if the King, will there be a state funeral?
Title: Re: Sun of York
Post by: Margo on November 02, 2012, 03:30:49 PM
They haven't yet been identified. I believe that if they are, they will be reinterred at the cathedral, but there are no plans for a state funeral.
Title: Re: Sun of York
Post by: Iris on November 02, 2012, 05:20:51 PM
Interesting. I imagine it would take a while to gather all the evidence necessary to say it was the king.

My vote (ha!) is to give him a watered down version of a state funeral so that all the history buffs can go. I'd go, if I lived over there.
Title: Re: Sun of York
Post by: Barney girl on November 06, 2012, 04:26:56 PM
I heard the tale end of a discussion on the radio the other day about where the remains should be buried if it is Richard III. Someone made the point that it should be in York. He was very popular in the north of England and ruled well as Governor of the North.
Title: Re: Sun of York
Post by: HenrysMom on November 07, 2012, 12:40:35 PM
Would the Queen be the one to make the decision on final disposition of the remains?  Although not a descendant, I imagine she is arguably the closest living relative. 
Title: Re: Sun of York
Post by: mechtilde on November 07, 2012, 01:02:06 PM
Would the Queen be the one to make the decision on final disposition of the remains?  Although not a descendant, I imagine she is arguably the closest living relative.

Could be awkward- she's descended from the guy who won the battle where he was killed....

 
Title: Re: Sun of York
Post by: HenrysMom on November 07, 2012, 08:51:37 PM
Would the Queen be the one to make the decision on final disposition of the remains?  Although not a descendant, I imagine she is arguably the closest living relative.

Could be awkward- she's descended from the guy who won the battle where he was killed....

That would be Margaret Tudor.  Her father was Henry VII and mother was Elizabeth of York, Richard III's niece.
Title: Re: Sun of York
Post by: squashedfrog on November 08, 2012, 03:33:09 AM
Oddly enough my old house was actually three minutes walk from this site, I must have walked past it hundreds of times on my way to/from work.  When you cross the river, there is still a plaque on the bridge that reads something like, near to this site the Bones of Richard III and it goes on to say the story that the bones were dug up and thrown into the river. 

I used to always wonder when I was trudging across in the rain, still half asleep if the bones were there still at the bottom of the river, stuck in the mud somewhere along the bank waiting to be found.  And now there's the chance I parked my car on him.  :o

There's a nice statue of him on the park nearby put up by the Richard III society. 

My dad made me laugh actually, when the story came out that whoever had drunkenly decided to dig him up and lob his bones in the river got the wrong church.  As he said, "Yep sounds like Leicester!".

Not sure how long the DNA will take - I think we are used to seeing it happen immediately on crime shows, but I'm told its quite a lengthy process.  I'd also wondered if they will inter him in Westminster.  But then the authorities have often been a bit odd with this sort of thing.  As far as I'm aware, they still refuse to do DNA testing on the bones in the casket there thought to be the young princes in the tower.  I've often wondered why this is.   
Title: Re: Sun of York
Post by: Shopaholic on November 08, 2012, 04:09:23 AM
I love this kind of historical mysteries... the speculation is most of the fun!

Title: Re: Sun of York
Post by: HenrysMom on November 08, 2012, 10:26:01 AM
About the princes, my best guess is that they've been exhumed and examined so many times that there probably isn't much left.  So it would be pointless to re-exhume them yet again.
Title: Re: Sun of York
Post by: Seraphia on November 08, 2012, 10:37:14 AM
About the princes, my best guess is that they've been exhumed and examined so many times that there probably isn't much left.  So it would be pointless to re-exhume them yet again.

The book I just finished (Alison Weir's The Princes in the Tower) pretty much says just that. The people protecting the bones say that enough tests have been done on the bones that researchers can just look at that data and leave the skeletons alone.
Title: Re: Sun of York
Post by: Flora Louise on November 09, 2012, 09:24:28 AM
>> . . . The book I just finished (Alison Weir's The Princes in the Tower) pretty much says just that. The people protecting the bones say that enough tests have been done on the bones that researchers can just look at that data and leave the skeletons alone. <<

"And curst be he who moves my bones."
Title: Re: Sun of York
Post by: Ferrets on November 10, 2012, 04:01:58 AM
My dad made me laugh actually, when the story came out that whoever had drunkenly decided to dig him up and lob his bones in the river got the wrong church.  As he said, "Yep sounds like Leicester!".

I live in Leicester, and this made me laugh. Yes, it does indeed. ;D


I'd also wondered if they will inter him in Westminster.

Buckingham Palace apparently aren't interested in moving him:

Quote
Philippa Langley, of the Richard III Society, who played a key role in the dig, said a private secretary to the Queen had confirmed the Palace was not interested in claiming the king and would rather see him buried in Leicester.

Ms Langley said: "We've been in touch with the Palace and they've said that they don't want Richard for Westminster Abbey or Windsor Castle.

"Not because they don't want him, but they believe because he died in Leicester and was buried in Leicester for 500 years, he should stay in Leicester.

"So, Westminster and Windsor Castle are definitely out."

She said there was strong evidence that Richard had wanted to be buried at York Minister.

She said: "I will say, though, that it is best archaeological practice to re-inter as close to the site of discovery as possible and the site is in the shadow of Leicester Cathedral.

"I would say there is a very high chance it will be Leicester Cathedral.

"The palace have said they believe it should be Leicester Cathedral."

 - Leicester Mercury, 14/09/12 (http://www.thisisleicestershire.co.uk/Richard-III-dig-King-s-remains-stay-Leicester/story-16897132-detail/story.html)

I think it makes a fair amount of sense for his remains to stay round here (if it is him*). He's closely associated with Leicester (in a candidate for a Most Dubiously Tactful Naming shortlist, we even have the 'King Richard III Infant School' just up the road from me), and reinterment in Leicester seems appropriate.

*Be rather disappointed if it isn't: I've become used to having the town full of happy archaeologists and historians lately!
Title: Re: Sun of York
Post by: Iris on November 10, 2012, 04:46:11 AM
we even have the 'King Richard III Infant School' just up the road from me

No WAY! You do NOT! Get out of town!

Best. Name. Ever. I want to move to your area and have another child just so I can send them there.
Title: Re: Sun of York
Post by: scotcat60 on November 10, 2012, 10:43:27 AM
Meanwhile, Leicester City council are claiming 500 years of unpaid parking fees....

I believe the present Duke of Gloucester is a member of the Richard III society, so perhaps he could represent the Royal Family wherever the late King is buried , if it turns out to be him. 

What about Gloucester Cathedral?  Richard III started out as Duke of Gloucester.
Title: Re: Sun of York
Post by: mechtilde on November 11, 2012, 07:28:10 AM
Meanwhile, Leicester City council are claiming 500 years of unpaid parking fees....

LOL!
Title: Re: Sun of York
Post by: scotcat60 on January 27, 2013, 10:45:25 AM
Channel 4, in the UK, are going to broadcast a documentary called "The King in the Car park" on 4th of February 2013, by which time the results of the DNA should be in, and we will know either way if the skeleton is that of Richard III.
Title: Re: Sun of York
Post by: shadowfox79 on January 28, 2013, 05:27:34 AM
Channel 4, in the UK, are going to broadcast a documentary called "The King in the Car park" on 4th of February 2013, by which time the results of the DNA should be in, and we will know either way if the skeleton is that of Richard III.

I lost all hope of a proper historical treatment after some article reported that the skeleton had a possible hump.

If it's him, then it will be the real him, not the one of Shakespeare and Tudor propaganda. That means no withered arm, no uneven legs and no hump.
Title: Re: Sun of York
Post by: RingTailedLemur on January 28, 2013, 05:32:28 AM
Channel 4, in the UK, are going to broadcast a documentary called "The King in the Car park" on 4th of February 2013, by which time the results of the DNA should be in, and we will know either way if the skeleton is that of Richard III.

If it isn't him, it's going to be like Geraldo all over again...
Title: Re: Sun of York
Post by: scotcat60 on January 28, 2013, 08:26:43 AM
If it isn't him, it's going to be like Geraldo all over again...

Who is Geraldo? (I'm in the UK and need an explanation)
Title: Re: Sun of York
Post by: RingTailedLemur on January 28, 2013, 08:39:35 AM
If it isn't him, it's going to be like Geraldo all over again...

Who is Geraldo? (I'm in the UK and need an explanation)

I'm in the UK too - Geraldo used to be on TV here as well.

He is a TV show host who once did a special live show where Al Capone's vault was opened.  It was really, really hyped up that exciting stuff would be found (riches, body parts...) - but there was nothing beyond a few dirty bottles.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mystery_of_Al_Capone%27s_Vaults
Title: Re: Sun of York
Post by: Thipu1 on January 29, 2013, 09:26:21 AM
Geraldo Rivera was an extremely annoying television reporter.   In the little town where I lived, there was a nasty incident when a freight train caught fire in a tunnel.  Geraldo was right there sticking a microphone into the faces of emergency personnel trying to get in and deal with the mess. Other reporters were there and allowed to stay but Geraldo had to be escorted from the site by the State Troopers.       

When the news world got sick and tired of him, He became a host of talk shows that focused on the sensational and lurid.  In the NYC area, he gained the nickname of 'Horrendo Revolver'.

Here in the US we've heard about the Richard III discovery. It's an interesting story and we look forward to more information.  I doubt that, if the remains really are those of Richard, there will be much official recognition of a reburial.  The Richard III Society will provide the hoop-la. 

Title: Re: Sun of York
Post by: RingTailedLemur on February 04, 2013, 04:27:46 AM
It's him!
Title: Re: Sun of York
Post by: RingTailedLemur on February 04, 2013, 04:46:21 AM
He will be reinterred at Leicester Cathedral.
Title: Re: Sun of York
Post by: Thipu1 on February 04, 2013, 08:19:38 AM
We had he announcement here this morning.  It's good that the question is settled.

The discovery also means that we're likely to get the documentary in the US.  That would be neat to see.
Title: Re: Sun of York
Post by: Twik on February 04, 2013, 10:22:26 AM
As a Yorkshire descendant, I agree with the WOOT!
Title: Re: Sun of York
Post by: Margo on February 04, 2013, 12:24:30 PM
More details here http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-21063882 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-21063882) for those who are interested.
Title: Re: Sun of York
Post by: Giggity on February 04, 2013, 12:26:51 PM
One article I read said that his reign will now have to be reassessed.

Why? Why doe the presence of the body mean the entire reign is open for investigation?
Title: Re: Sun of York
Post by: RingTailedLemur on February 04, 2013, 01:39:15 PM
One article I read said that his reign will now have to be reassessed.

Why? Why doe the presence of the body mean the entire reign is open for investigation?

The historians are using the opportunity and interest to re-examine what really happened during his reign and what was propaganda.  For example, examination of the body shows his physical deformity was not as bad as was claimed.
Title: Re: Sun of York
Post by: Erich L-ster on February 04, 2013, 01:53:11 PM
Is there some pun I'm not aware of between "sun" and "son"? I've read the play but don't recall whether it was "sun" there.

I can't wait to see a documentary on this whole process of the discovery, excavation, testing and what comes next. I hope the History channel can find a spot for it in between the trashy staged reality shows that now pollute their lineup.

Actually, I hope it appears on PBS so I can trust the information and don't have to be assaulted with loud commercials for said trash reality commercials while it's on.
Title: Re: Sun of York
Post by: Margo on February 04, 2013, 02:34:46 PM
Yes, it's 'sun' in the play

"Now is the winter of our discontent
Made glorious summer by this sun of York"

If you have tunnelbear or something similar you may be able to watch it - there's a documentary on Channel 4 here in the UK tonight, and I would expect it to be available to watch again via their website, at least for the next week or so.
Title: Re: Sun of York
Post by: Yvaine on February 04, 2013, 02:46:41 PM
Is there some pun I'm not aware of between "sun" and "son"? I've read the play but don't recall whether it was "sun" there.

Yes. Richard's brother, Edward IV, used a lot of sun symbolism. His heraldic device was called the Sun in Splendour. And I think the Shakespeare line really does say "suns" and it makes a pun between the brothers being "sons" of York and also "suns" who have turned it from winter to summer, metaphorically.
Title: Re: Sun of York
Post by: Margo on February 04, 2013, 03:40:12 PM
Heh. I'm watching the documentary. One of the historians just said "I don't think anyone's ever found a king under a carpark before. There's no etiquette for it"
I thought it might appeal to ehellions  :)
Title: Re: Sun of York
Post by: Ferrets on February 04, 2013, 04:27:52 PM
(http://i700.photobucket.com/albums/ww1/Wolfie_Icons/ChristopherMCevasco_zps41c26bb5.jpg)
Credit: Christopher M. Cevasco (via Facebook)

(http://i700.photobucket.com/albums/ww1/Wolfie_Icons/538126_614124128602957_314646361_n_zpse8edf51d.jpg)
Credit: Unknown (via Facebook)

I'm quite glad we get to keep him in Leicester. He's been around here long enough, after all!

Title: Re: Sun of York
Post by: Bethczar on February 04, 2013, 05:14:34 PM
I love the sign!

I really hope the documentary comes to the US soon.
Title: Re: Sun of York
Post by: scotcat60 on February 05, 2013, 03:19:29 AM
One article I read said that his reign will now have to be reassessed.

Why? Why doe the presence of the body mean the entire reign is open for investigation?

The historians are using the opportunity and interest to re-examine what really happened during his reign and what was propaganda.  For example, examination of the body shows his physical deformity was not as bad as was claimed.

This has actually been done before. Many years ago, there was a semi documentary with the actors who played Chief Inspectors Barlow and Watt from the British TV series "Z Cars" and "Softly, Softly", who investigated Richard III as if they, Barlow and Watt were conducting a modern day murder investigation. Also Josephine Tey's book "The Daughter of Time" has her main character, a policeman, investigating the King from his hospital bed. Barlow and Watt found that the portraits of Richard were altered  to make him seem deformed and therefore, evil. A previous theory was that one arm might have been overdeveloped because of the use of weapons, and that might have made one of Richard's shoulders seem higher than the other.The reconstructed face of the skill shows something not dissimilar to the portraits, but not so worried looking. In Tudor times, the Countess of Desmond who had danced with Richard when he was Duke of Gloucester said he was the handsomest man in the room, savr for his brother Edward IV

As for the signs, I was ROFLMAO. They are the funniest things I've seen in ages. Todays london Daily Mail has a cartoon "City of Leicester. Short stay carpark up to 2 hours. Long stay carpark up to 600 years"

As for the burial, I believe that the present Duke of Gloucester, also a Richard, is a member of the Richard III society, so it would be nice if he attended, no matter where it takes place.
Title: Re: Sun of York
Post by: Erich L-ster on February 05, 2013, 05:37:53 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/TT9KHbz.jpg)
Title: Re: Sun of York
Post by: Twik on February 05, 2013, 08:02:32 PM
The skeleton does apparently show scoliosis, so he did have some physical disability. Makes his role as battlefield leader even more impressive.

The facial reconstruction was released today. Rather stunning.

And one of the best headlines I've seen on the investigation - "The Winter of Our Dig's Content".
Title: Re: Sun of York
Post by: Outdoor Girl on February 05, 2013, 08:47:39 PM
I read an article in the Toronto Star today about a Canadian connection.  A woman who emigrated from the UK to Canada was tracked down a number of years ago because it was believed that she was a descendent of one of Richard's sisters.  They got a DNA sample from her at that time.  Her three children also submitted DNA samples and their DNA played a part in determining his identity.  Unfortunately, she didn't live to see this; her husband and kids said she would have been tickled.

I think it's kind of cool that DNA from half way 'round the world helped out.
Title: Re: Sun of York
Post by: Twik on February 06, 2013, 09:05:45 AM
I was thinking, despite the Richardian's complaints about Shakespeare, I must admit that we'd probably not be as interested if some king who was NOT an iconic literary figure had been discovered.

Shakespeare may have written Richard as a monster, but a remarkably interesting one.
Title: Re: Sun of York
Post by: Twik on February 06, 2013, 09:08:53 AM
Is there some pun I'm not aware of between "sun" and "son"? I've read the play but don't recall whether it was "sun" there.

Yes. Richard's brother, Edward IV, used a lot of sun symbolism. His heraldic device was called the Sun in Splendour. And I think the Shakespeare line really does say "suns" and it makes a pun between the brothers being "sons" of York and also "suns" who have turned it from winter to summer, metaphorically.

Basically, every line Shakespeare wrote has multiple meanings. One of which is usually a dirty joke.
Title: Re: Sun of York
Post by: NestHolder on February 07, 2013, 06:05:09 AM
There's a very interesting website which gives a good bit of information about all aspects of the discovery:  http://www.le.ac.uk/richardiii/    It's the University of Leicester's.
Title: Re: Sun of York
Post by: Thipu1 on February 07, 2013, 08:49:02 AM
There's a very interesting website which gives a good bit of information about all aspects of the discovery:  http://www.le.ac.uk/richardiii/    It's the University of Leicester's.

Thank you, NestHolder.  That's a very interesting and informative site. 
Title: Re: Sun of York
Post by: SouthernBelle on February 15, 2013, 12:18:22 PM
From the Smithsonian:

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history-archaeology/The-Battle-Over-Richard-IIIs-BonesAnd-His-Reputation-190400171.html