Etiquette Hell

General Etiquette => Family and Children => Topic started by: Bexx27 on December 05, 2012, 09:14:15 AM

Title: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: Bexx27 on December 05, 2012, 09:14:15 AM
I realize this is a somewhat silly first world problem.

I have an "old" 1st generation ipad. My 3yo DD loves playing with it and most of the apps on it are for her. (I use it mostly for internet and DH has a few games on it.) Knowing this, my FIL told DH a few months ago that he wanted to get DD a LeapPad for Christmas. We thought it would be a great gift for her and were thankful for his generosity.

Later he decided that instead of giving her a LeapPad, he will get an ipad mini for himself and give her his ipad2. We do not want her to have "her own" ipad, but DH said it would be all right if FIL made it a family gift so we'd have 2 ipads between the 3 of us. I was thinking DD would mostly continue to use mine since her apps are already on it. Having another ipad would not change anything for DD since the only time I don't allow her to use mine is when I don't want her to have screen time; the only real benefit would be for me and DH, since we would have another ipad to use at the same time. This isn't something we particularly desire since we have plenty of other ways to occupy ourselves and we don't want DD in front of a screen for hours at a time regardless of "sharing" issues. But it's a nice, generous gift and would be appreciated.

DH thought he had made it clear that we didn't want it to be a gift specifically for DD. He even asked that it not be wrapped and put under the tree. However, that conversation was a few weeks ago and FIL seems to have forgotten it. Yesterday he was talking enthusiastically to DH about "DD's ipad" and how excited she would be when she unwrapped it. I'm not comfortable with that. I don't think DH is either, but he has a hard time standing up to his dad.

My questions:
Am I being unreasonable? I can't even really verbalize why this makes me uncomfortable. (DH jokes that I just don't want my 3yo to have a better toy than I do. There's some truth to that, but it's more about not spoiling my child than wanting the best stuff for myself.)
If it's OK to ask FIL not to do this, how should we go about it? Just reiterate that we don't want the ipad to be a gift for DD specifically, don't want it wrapped for her to open, etc.? Does that sound rude and/or entitled? (As in, "don't give that to my child, give it to meeeee!")
If it's rude to dictate the terms/recipient of the gift, is it better to outright refuse it? Would it be extra rude to try to steer FIL back to the LeapPad idea, especially since that would cost him an extra $100? (I'm assuming he'd get himself an ipad mini anyway and isn't just getting it in order to pass on his ipad2 to DD.)
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: TurtleDove on December 05, 2012, 09:21:35 AM
My questions:
Am I being unreasonable? I can't even really verbalize why this makes me uncomfortable. (DH jokes that I just don't want my 3yo to have a better toy than I do. There's some truth to that, but it's more about not spoiling my child than wanting the best stuff for myself.)
If it's OK to ask FIL not to do this, how should we go about it? Just reiterate that we don't want the ipad to be a gift for DD specifically, don't want it wrapped for her to open, etc.? Does that sound rude and/or entitled? (As in, "don't give that to my child, give it to meeeee!")
If it's rude to dictate the terms/recipient of the gift, is it better to outright refuse it? Would it be extra rude to try to steer FIL back to the LeapPad idea, especially since that would cost him an extra $100? (I'm assuming he'd get himself an ipad mini anyway and isn't just getting it in order to pass on his ipad2 to DD.)

I think you are being unreasonable, especially given the bolded.  I doubt your 3 year old places much significance on what it means to open a present in the sense of "if I open this present that was under the tree it is MINE and my parents can't dictate how I use it" - she likely just enjoys opening things.  I don't generally get many presents anymore, but when I do I often let my DD help me open them becuase at age 4 she still likes the pretty wrapping paper and bows and glitter.  Unless you can better articulate what is bothering you about this gift and your FIL's plans to give it as a present to your DD, I would not say anything.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: PurpleFrog on December 05, 2012, 09:40:31 AM
I think you have a perfect right to veto such an expensive and easily breakable present for a toddler. I would be hugely uncomfortable with my 3 year old having an iPad of any form. Your FIL is ignoring your agreement for his own pleasure in seeing dd opening the gift.


Speak to him again, explain that you do not want your 3 year old to have a personal iPad, which is why you suggestedit be a family gift. As it seems he is not happy with the compromise you'd prefer that he not give the iPad at all. Tell him if he does give it to her it will be promptly returned.

You then need to stick to your guns, if he turns up with it on Christmas day take it from your daughter and hand it back to him, saying there must be a mistake and this can't be the gift for your dd as he knows she isn't allowed her own iPad.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: JenJay on December 05, 2012, 09:43:03 AM
I think you are being reasonable. My kids are 9, 10 and 12. My oldest has a Nook color which she saved up for (DH and I kicked in $50 and a cover as a gift) and each of my boys has an iPod touch that was handed down as DH and I upgraded from regular cells to smart phones. I wouldn't be comfortable with anyone giving them iPads.

I would ask DH to remind his Dad that you all agreed the iPad would be a gift for the family. He can still wrap it, DD can still open it, but he needs to make it clear that it's not just hers. Maybe he could say "This is a special present for you, Mom and Dad to share, would you like to open it?"
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: WillyNilly on December 05, 2012, 09:47:42 AM
I understand why you are having issues with the gift and with verbalizing why it bothers you.  Because it would bother me and I can't really explain why.  Its sort of like that old definition of pornography versus art "I can't define it, but I know it when I see it".  I think as much as anything its probably bothering you that you had a discussion and agreement with FIL about this already (ok to get the LeapPad, or if it is an iPad2 its for everyone).  Part of it is probably the effort required of you - her apps are already in the existing iPad - you would have to redownload them all onto the "new" iPad and perhaps delete off the existing one (to clear up space for apps you use). And yeah the idea of spoiling kids with 'better' then their parents have is an element...

In all I suspect its a whole bunch of little reasons that individually don't matter but add up to you being wholly bothered.  Its like sand - one tiny grain of sand is nothing.  But 100 grains of sand will ruin your floors or render your shoes uncomfortable or will scratch your butt in your bathing suit.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: TurtleDove on December 05, 2012, 09:52:09 AM
Maybe I am not understanding the issue here - I understood that the OP historically allows her DD to play with an ipad.  I don't see how a gift of another ipad changes this in any way or forces her to not have control over a 3 year old's use of the ipad (or any toy or object for that matter).  I also am perhaps confused what a Leap Pad is but I assumed it was essentially the same thing as an ipad only specifically geared for younger kids.  I don't see how the OP would be fine with this but is upset about the ipad.

FWIW, I do not allow my DD (age 4) to use my computer at all and would not let her use an ipad. My opinion here is based on the parenting choices the OP said she made - I don't see the distinction or the problem with the gift given those parenting choices to date.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: CaptainObvious on December 05, 2012, 09:52:52 AM
I think you have a perfect right to veto such an expensive and easily breakable present for a toddler. I would be hugely uncomfortable with my 3 year old having an iPad of any form. Your FIL is ignoring your agreement for his own pleasure in seeing dd opening the gift.


Speak to him again, explain that you do not want your 3 year old to have a personal iPad, which is why you suggestedit be a family gift. As it seems he is not happy with the compromise you'd prefer that he not give the iPad at all. Tell him if he does give it to her it will be promptly returned.

You then need to stick to your guns, if he turns up with it on Christmas day take it from your daughter and hand it back to him, saying there must be a mistake and this can't be the gift for your dd as he knows she isn't allowed her own iPad.

The FIL can present to the daughter in any fashion he wants, it still doesn't make it "her iPad". You are the Parent, you make the decisions, plus she is 3, she isn't going to understand that it is a family gift or a personal one.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: O'Dell on December 05, 2012, 09:58:39 AM
I don't understand how letting your daughter open the gift changes the agreement in any way. Your FIL just wants to see her open "her" gift. Use it how you want.

I do think he was rude to unilaterally change the first agreement from a LeapPad to an iPad. But the time has passed to object to that.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: #borecore on December 05, 2012, 10:03:22 AM
I don't understand how letting your daughter open the gift changes the agreement in any way. Your FIL just wants to see her open "her" gift. Use it how you want.

I do think he was rude to unilaterally change the first agreement from a LeapPad to an iPad. But the time has passed to object to that.

Agreed. You are still the parent. You can dictate how, when and where any gift your kid receives is used, and in most cases, you can still use it yourself as you like.

Stop trying to reason with an unreasonable grownup (though I'm sorry he's that way!), and do what you can once you're in your own home.
 
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: Zilla on December 05, 2012, 10:03:39 AM
The fact she plays with an iPad already influences my opinion here.  I too think it's fine for her to open it as a present.  She is 3 and doesn't understand how expensive of a gift it is.  It is simply a present and yay her own to play on.  Your personal rules would still apply and you would still supervise her use etc.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: Virg on December 05, 2012, 10:08:20 AM
I agree with the others that the act of opening the iPad and the use of the iPad can be separated when you're dealing with a toddler.  So, you can let him wrap it and "give" it to her to open while still retaining the right to control its use, and at age three your DD isn't going to be worried about it at all, and probably won't even notice that you've put her back on the old iPad after Christmas day.  I understand the idea of not having an easily stated objection to the gift in general, but it sounds like you're more concerned about how she'll use it than the very fact that it's there, and you'll still be able to control that to the extent that you've been doing so far, so in your place I'd let the issue slide and let her unwrap it as your FIL planned.

Virg
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: Eden on December 05, 2012, 10:35:33 AM
I agree with the others who say, as you have no objection to the gift in the general sense, how and when you allow your DD to use it is still up to you.

Even if she were old enough to realize it was "hers" you'd still have every right to control its use.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: WillyNilly on December 05, 2012, 10:50:00 AM
Earlier I posted its probably a bunch of little objections.  I'm wondering if another one of those little things is the OP is comfortable restricting her daughter's usage of a toy, but is not comfortable commandeering a "toy" (word used lightly) given to her daughter and re-purposing it as a family gift.  So while yes the OP is still the parent and can control her daughter's usage, she might not be comfortable saying "oh DD doesn't understand the idea of a group gift and we let her open it and her grandpa said it was hers, but really her dad & I are going to use it as a family device."

I know for me, I think the idea of it being a family device is reasonable if its given as one.  But I don't think its ethical for a parent to take a gift given to a child solely and then deem it belongs to the whole family.  If it wasn't given to the whole family it does not belong to the whole family, regardless of who's in charge.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: TurtleDove on December 05, 2012, 10:58:59 AM
If it wasn't given to the whole family it does not belong to the whole family, regardless of who's in charge.

I think the fact DD is 3 makes a big difference here.  When my child is 3, I am in charge, period.  As she gets older, of course I would consider her desires, but at age three, no, I am the parent.  I think the OP can and should absolutely decide how the gift (insert EVERYTHING) is used and by whom in the family. 
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: Sharnita on December 05, 2012, 11:01:29 AM
I stronfly disagree that the presentation doesn't matter. At 3 you are trying to teach them about sharing but also teaching them to respect others' property. Giving a child that age a gift "for them" on Christmas and then having mom and dad try to explain that doesn't really mean it is theirs - totally wrong.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: Bexx27 on December 05, 2012, 11:04:23 AM
Earlier I posted its probably a bunch of little objections.  I'm wondering if another one of those little things is the OP is comfortable restricting her daughter's usage of a toy, but is not comfortable commandeering a "toy" (word used lightly) given to her daughter and re-purposing it as a family gift.  So while yes the OP is still the parent and can control her daughter's usage, she might not be comfortable saying "oh DD doesn't understand the idea of a group gift and we let her open it and her grandpa said it was hers, but really her dad & I are going to use it as a family device."

I know for me, I think the idea of it being a family device is reasonable if its given as one.  But I don't think its ethical for a parent to take a gift given to a child solely and then deem it belongs to the whole family.  If it wasn't given to the whole family it does not belong to the whole family, regardless of who's in charge.

Yes, this is exactly it.

Thanks for all your responses. They've helped me understand what's bothering me. It's not so much the gift opening, and I realize DD is too young to really "claim" the ipad. It's that FIL is clearly intending the gift for her and we had not planned on using it that way. It feels like we'd be accepting it under false pretenses. If FIL does not want it to be a family gift, that should be his choice. But we don't want an ipad for DD's exclusive use. Maybe DH should talk to him about how we would use it and he can decide whether he wants to give it under those conditions?
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: O'Dell on December 05, 2012, 11:04:38 AM
Earlier I posted its probably a bunch of little objections.  I'm wondering if another one of those little things is the OP is comfortable restricting her daughter's usage of a toy, but is not comfortable commandeering a "toy" (word used lightly) given to her daughter and re-purposing it as a family gift.  So while yes the OP is still the parent and can control her daughter's usage, she might not be comfortable saying "oh DD doesn't understand the idea of a group gift and we let her open it and her grandpa said it was hers, but really her dad & I are going to use it as a family device."

I know for me, I think the idea of it being a family device is reasonable if its given as one.  But I don't think its ethical for a parent to take a gift given to a child solely and then deem it belongs to the whole family.  If it wasn't given to the whole family it does not belong to the whole family, regardless of who's in charge.

I would agree with this and would feel the same way, except in this case FIL knows and agreed to the plan of it being used as a family gift. If he didn't like the plan, he could object, or even better go with the original plan. He seems not to have done that.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: Peregrine on December 05, 2012, 11:09:26 AM
I don't see this that much differently than a grandparent gifting.....say a WII to the grandaughter.....It's not like Mom and Dad will never use it, and it's use would be with the parent's permission and knowledge.

Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: Docslady21 on December 05, 2012, 11:11:53 AM
I understand the discomfort, but she's only three. You aren't going to have the same fight you would have with a kid who was 6-10. She's not going to fight you and tell you it's hers and she can use it if she wants. You have all the power.

He just wants to see her open it and see her face light up with excitement. You'll be able to impose the same restrictions you would if he bought her something like a bike or a movie. Just because it's "her" bike, for example, doesn't mean she can just go outside at 2 a.m. and ride it in the street unsupervised. She can't just turn on "her" movies in the middle of your family watching a show. She can't just open the fridge and eat "her" leftover birthday cake for dinner.

Your average iPad sells for about $350. On trade at a store, you get about $200. It's used. And, you can easily load all of her regular apps on it because you can link it to your family iTunes account. That's how our family does it. And if using it makes you feel weird, it's really not. I use my son's iPod if I can't find mine or I'm bored at the doctor, etc. I make him share it with his sister. It's "his", but I make the rules.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: Sharnita on December 05, 2012, 11:16:54 AM
I don't know which 3 year olds you all know but every single one I've spent time with has mastered the concept of "mine" and would very clearly recognize that mom and dad were playing with her gift but expected her to respect their property. 3 year olds aren't stupid.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: JenJay on December 05, 2012, 11:23:44 AM
I don't see this that much differently than a grandparent gifting.....say a WII to the grandaughter.....It's not like Mom and Dad will never use it, and it's use would be with the parent's permission and knowledge.

I would make the "family gift" distinction for a wii, too. I've always been careful about that with my kids to avoid the "That's mine and I don't give you permission to use it!" thing when they're being grumpy with each other. I don't teach my kids that they automatically have to share with anyone who asks, including me, when something truly is theirs. If one of my kids has a game they were gifted or purchased for themselves they are allowed to say "No, you can't borrow it." if the refusal is reasonable. For example if youngest was recently irresponsible with a game and the disk got scratched, I would let his sibling refuse to share. However, I would make them share if their only objection was because they were feeling grumpy (the game wasn't being used by the owner, it held no sentimental value, the borrower could be trusted to treat it carefully, etc.). Major items are always family gifts to avoid all of that. My middle son saved up his xmas cash one year and wanted to add a Kinect to our Xbox. I explained to him that if he chose to spend his money on that it would not be his, it would be for everyone. He still wanted it so we let him (and we bought him a game or two that were his, which he's always shared).

A three year old will understand that she only gets X amount of time on the iPad and then it gets put away. She's also likely to say "Mommy, that's my toy, Grandpa gave it to me. Why are you using it?" I agree with PPs that if OP and her DH will be using the ipad then the "Family Gift" distinction is important.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: Zilla on December 05, 2012, 11:27:45 AM
I stronfly disagree that the presentation doesn't matter. At 3 you are trying to teach them about sharing but also teaching them to respect others' property. Giving a child that age a gift "for them" on Christmas and then having mom and dad try to explain that doesn't really mean it is theirs - totally wrong.
But if it was given to the child as a gift and put up when she isn't using it, why would you have to explain anything?  If a leap pad was given to the child instead, that gift would also be put away to do other things.  What difference does an iPad make?  I think the OP was pointing out the pros and cons and thought of changing it to a family gift but even then she said it isn't needed.  So I would leave it alone and let it be her daughter's and put it away just as she does now with her own iPad for her little girl.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: MamaMootz on December 05, 2012, 11:32:06 AM
To me, the distinction is this: Grandpa is buying a brand new I-pad for a 3 year old. I know it's going to be used as a family gift, but that is what I would have the objection to.
Yes, the 3 year old already uses an I-pad but it's an older one with apps just for her on it. I don't think it would matter quite as much if it got broken over a brand new one that is in the area of $600 as a new gift.

On the other hand, Grandpa wants to see her open a gift on Xmas. Maybe he can wrap up something smaller for her and give the i-pad to mom and dad as a family gift?
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: Bexx27 on December 05, 2012, 11:32:33 AM
I don't know which 3 year olds you all know but every single one I've spent time with has mastered the concept of "mine" and would very clearly recognize that mom and dad were playing with her gift but expected her to respect their property. 3 year olds aren't stupid.

This is true, but another important 3-year-old concept is that a toy becomes a zillion times more desirable when someone else is playing with it. So she might be fine with using my old ipad as long as she gets to take it from me.  ;)
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: WillyNilly on December 05, 2012, 11:35:51 AM
I stronfly disagree that the presentation doesn't matter. At 3 you are trying to teach them about sharing but also teaching them to respect others' property. Giving a child that age a gift "for them" on Christmas and then having mom and dad try to explain that doesn't really mean it is theirs - totally wrong.
But if it was given to the child as a gift and put up when she isn't using it, why would you have to explain anything?  If a leap pad was given to the child instead, that gift would also be put away to do other things.  What difference does an iPad make?  I think the OP was pointing out the pros and cons and thought of changing it to a family gift but even then she said it isn't needed.  So I would leave it alone and let it be her daughter's and put it away just as she does now with her own iPad for her little girl.

I think the point is, if it belongs to the child, the parents can control when its used by the child or put away and not in use.  But the parent's can't just take it - lets say one parent gets called away on a business trip - if it belongs to the daughter its unethical for the parent to just take the iPad with them on the trip by them-self, at least without asking the child's permission (and really who wants to ask a 3 year old for permission to take a $500 electronic device on a business trip?!?!)

If it belongs to the family, the parents till determine when the kid can use it.  But they can also go ahead and take it for their own use when its needed/desired.


When I was a kid I definitely had stuff that was mine, that I was expected to share and be nice about, and then there was stuff that was general use that was for everyone to share but didn't belong to an individual.  My teddy bear was mine, but Monopoly belonged to the family.

Even at 3 I understood the distinction.  I also understood when I was opening gifts for me, or just 'helping' my parents open gifts that were for them or for for the family as a whole.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: Sharnita on December 05, 2012, 11:40:45 AM
The parents don't intend to just put it up, though. They intend to use it as well. That is why they made the family gift condition in the beginning.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: Bexx27 on December 05, 2012, 11:43:58 AM
To me, the distinction is this: Grandpa is buying a brand new I-pad for a 3 year old. I know it's going to be used as a family gift, but that is what I would have the objection to.
Yes, the 3 year old already uses an I-pad but it's an older one with apps just for her on it. I don't think it would matter quite as much if it got broken over a brand new one that is in the area of $600 as a new gift.

On the other hand, Grandpa wants to see her open a gift on Xmas. Maybe he can wrap up something smaller for her and give the i-pad to mom and dad as a family gift?

It's actually not new. FIL is getting a new ipad for himself and giving DD his old one. But his old one is still a newer model than mine.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: jedikaiti on December 05, 2012, 11:47:16 AM
Earlier I posted its probably a bunch of little objections.  I'm wondering if another one of those little things is the OP is comfortable restricting her daughter's usage of a toy, but is not comfortable commandeering a "toy" (word used lightly) given to her daughter and re-purposing it as a family gift.  So while yes the OP is still the parent and can control her daughter's usage, she might not be comfortable saying "oh DD doesn't understand the idea of a group gift and we let her open it and her grandpa said it was hers, but really her dad & I are going to use it as a family device."

I know for me, I think the idea of it being a family device is reasonable if its given as one.  But I don't think its ethical for a parent to take a gift given to a child solely and then deem it belongs to the whole family.  If it wasn't given to the whole family it does not belong to the whole family, regardless of who's in charge.

Yes, this is exactly it.

Thanks for all your responses. They've helped me understand what's bothering me. It's not so much the gift opening, and I realize DD is too young to really "claim" the ipad. It's that FIL is clearly intending the gift for her and we had not planned on using it that way. It feels like we'd be accepting it under false pretenses. If FIL does not want it to be a family gift, that should be his choice. But we don't want an ipad for DD's exclusive use. Maybe DH should talk to him about how we would use it and he can decide whether he wants to give it under those conditions?

Does FIL have a history of boundary-trampling? I ask because we've seen many times where a person asks about Incident X involving relative Whoever, which seems innocuous on its own. Then, once we get more history on the relationship between OP and Whoever, we find that a huge part of the problem is that Whoever has a bad history of steamrolling over boundaries, and Incident X was preceded by Incidents A - W, making "innocuous" Incident X much more suspect.

Regardless, you & DH made the decision that it had to be a family gift or not a gift at all, and you made that clear to FIL. Your family, your rules. He is now trying to break those rules. DH needs to have a polite conversation reminding FIL has already been discussed, and that it's a family gift, or don't give it at all. If you suspect he'll try to give it to DD anyway, you have every right to screen her gifts.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: Bexx27 on December 05, 2012, 11:50:56 AM
I stronfly disagree that the presentation doesn't matter. At 3 you are trying to teach them about sharing but also teaching them to respect others' property. Giving a child that age a gift "for them" on Christmas and then having mom and dad try to explain that doesn't really mean it is theirs - totally wrong.
But if it was given to the child as a gift and put up when she isn't using it, why would you have to explain anything?  If a leap pad was given to the child instead, that gift would also be put away to do other things.  What difference does an iPad make?  I think the OP was pointing out the pros and cons and thought of changing it to a family gift but even then she said it isn't needed.  So I would leave it alone and let it be her daughter's and put it away just as she does now with her own iPad for her little girl.

Part of it is that this ipad is a newer model than mine, so DH and I would be inclined to use it ourselves while DD uses my old one. Which is fine if it's a family gift, but seems wrong if the gift is intended for her. Maybe I should just let the newer one be DD's, but it seems silly for a 3-year-old to have a fancier version than her parents, KWIM?
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: padua on December 05, 2012, 11:55:21 AM
i agree with sharnita. 3 year olds are learning the concept of 'mine'. i have a 15month old and he knows what's his. i also agree with jedikaiti. FIL is playing by his own rules.

if he gifts it to her, and the parents allow her to open it but use it as a family item, the parents may run into the problem of FIL consistently referring to the gift as belonging to the 3 year old. that's going to cause some confusion.

and i may be jaded here (i've worked clinically with youth who end up in group homes with significant entitlement issues), but i, too, wouldn't allow my child to have such an expensive 'toy' at a young age. it's not something i can rationally argue, but in my mind it sets an unrealistic precident. FIL gifts an ipad today, maybe next year it's something more expensive. it starts to create a divide between the parents and in-laws. 'no, 6year old sally, you can't have a phone.' 'then maybe grandpa will get it for me.' i'm for setting limits and getting him on board with giving it to the family while DD opens the 'family gift'. he'll still get to see how excited she is, but won't cause needless triangulation.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: TurtleDove on December 05, 2012, 11:58:16 AM
I don't know which 3 year olds you all know but every single one I've spent time with has mastered the concept of "mine" and would very clearly recognize that mom and dad were playing with her gift but expected her to respect their property. 3 year olds aren't stupid.

My four year old understands that I am in charge.  I tend to play with her toys right along with her and she has no problem with this.  If she is asleep and for some reason I wanted to build something with her legos I cannot imagine she would have a problem with that either!
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: djinnidjream on December 05, 2012, 12:00:57 PM
It would bother me too.   I do not believe that children should get mega-expensive items as a gifts at a young age because how do you top it?  I have a nintendo DS.  At some time, I may upgrade to something better, and at that time, my son would get my DS and my daughter would get his gameboy.  If Grandpa flew in and gave DS a 3DS without asking, I would be very upset- not because he has something better than I do, but because it would completely negate anything I'm trying to teach my children about taking care of things and being happy with what you have- and if you want something better, you do something to earn it.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: Bexx27 on December 05, 2012, 12:04:37 PM
Earlier I posted its probably a bunch of little objections.  I'm wondering if another one of those little things is the OP is comfortable restricting her daughter's usage of a toy, but is not comfortable commandeering a "toy" (word used lightly) given to her daughter and re-purposing it as a family gift.  So while yes the OP is still the parent and can control her daughter's usage, she might not be comfortable saying "oh DD doesn't understand the idea of a group gift and we let her open it and her grandpa said it was hers, but really her dad & I are going to use it as a family device."

I know for me, I think the idea of it being a family device is reasonable if its given as one.  But I don't think its ethical for a parent to take a gift given to a child solely and then deem it belongs to the whole family.  If it wasn't given to the whole family it does not belong to the whole family, regardless of who's in charge.

Yes, this is exactly it.

Thanks for all your responses. They've helped me understand what's bothering me. It's not so much the gift opening, and I realize DD is too young to really "claim" the ipad. It's that FIL is clearly intending the gift for her and we had not planned on using it that way. It feels like we'd be accepting it under false pretenses. If FIL does not want it to be a family gift, that should be his choice. But we don't want an ipad for DD's exclusive use. Maybe DH should talk to him about how we would use it and he can decide whether he wants to give it under those conditions?

Does FIL have a history of boundary-trampling? I ask because we've seen many times where a person asks about Incident X involving relative Whoever, which seems innocuous on its own. Then, once we get more history on the relationship between OP and Whoever, we find that a huge part of the problem is that Whoever has a bad history of steamrolling over boundaries, and Incident X was preceded by Incidents A - W, making "innocuous" Incident X much more suspect.

Regardless, you & DH made the decision that it had to be a family gift or not a gift at all, and you made that clear to FIL. Your family, your rules. He is now trying to break those rules. DH needs to have a polite conversation reminding FIL has already been discussed, and that it's a family gift, or don't give it at all. If you suspect he'll try to give it to DD anyway, you have every right to screen her gifts.

Eh, not really. The worst he does is give lots of well-intentioned advice that DH sometimes sees as nagging. DH has been annoyed with him recently because DH wanted to take DD to a sports event 4 hours away over Thanksgiving weekend and FIL told him firmly that was a bad idea (basically insinuating that DH was being selfish) and that he wanted DD around that weekend for Christmas decorating. I don't think that's related to the ipad issue, though.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: wyliefool on December 05, 2012, 12:15:42 PM
I'm having trouble w/ the concept that a 3-yr-old can tell the difference between an ipad 1 and ipad 2. Do they look very different? Because I can't tell the diff between ipads 2-4 (5?). Don't know if I;ve seen a 1.

It's just as likely imo that she'll open the package and say 'grandpa, I have one of these already.'
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: Sharnita on December 05, 2012, 12:18:53 PM
Again, this would not be playing with it at the same time as her or while she is asleep, from what I can tell. This woul inolve moments when she will be told she can't play with "her" ipad because mom or dad wants to use it to do their own personal thing. With a family gift that is reasonable. With somebody else's gift it feels unfair. The fact that the owner of the gift has no leverage doesn't make it feel any more fair. It really conflicts with how they are being told to treat the property of others at that age.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: EMuir on December 05, 2012, 12:22:59 PM
I agree with wyliefool, I don't know if the toddler will even know it's different.  And even if she had her own iPad, would you really let her spend more time on it than she does on yours right now?

I think instead of asking your father to give it to the family(which takes away your power) you need to just tell him that he can wrap it for her if he wants, but it will be used by the whole family, and she probably won't react that much to it because as far as she sees, she already has one. Suggest that he'd get far more joy out of watching her unwrap a new toy. 

Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: TurtleDove on December 05, 2012, 12:25:30 PM
Again, this would not be playing with it at the same time as her or while she is asleep, from what I can tell. This woul inolve moments when she will be told she can't play with "her" ipad because mom or dad wants to use it to do their own personal thing. With a family gift that is reasonable. With somebody else's gift it feels unfair. The fact that the owner of the gift has no leverage doesn't make it feel any more fair. It really conflicts with how they are being told to treat the property of others at that age.

But there are two ipads, right?  And surely the DD is not allowed to constantly play with the ipad (I think the OP even said this). 
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: Mikayla on December 05, 2012, 12:39:40 PM
I'm having trouble w/ the concept that a 3-yr-old can tell the difference between an ipad 1 and ipad 2. Do they look very different? Because I can't tell the diff between ipads 2-4 (5?). Don't know if I;ve seen a 1.

It's just as likely imo that she'll open the package and say 'grandpa, I have one of these already.'

I don't think this is the issue.  There are both etiquette and parenting questions here, and from a parenting standpoint, many parents would be uncomfortable with a 3 year old getting a gift that nets between $300-$500 on my craigslist (depending on specs).  I think it taps into larger concerns about entitlement, or as someone said upthread, how do you top this?  Three year olds don't know value that well, but at 6 she'll remember what she got when she was 3.

And the etiquette is that, when parents have these concerns, it's not rude to express them.  Ideally, DH would find a way to talk to his dad, because it's a boundary that may need to be set now, rather than fight a new battle every year.  But if not, I see nothing wrong with OP thanking him for his generosity, but that she and DH are uncomfortable with their child getting a gift like this and they'd prefer that the child understand this is a family gift.  And of course OP wants her FIL to understand this, as well. 
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: JenJay on December 05, 2012, 12:43:16 PM
I think OP doesn't feel right about allowing Grandpa to give DD the newer iPad and then using it herself while handing DD the older iPad when she asks to play with one. Technically she could tell DD "No, that's your iPad." but that's dishonest, even if the 3yo can't tell the difference.

If I were in OP's shoes I'd feel like my options were either allow GP to give DD the newer device, transfer her apps to it, and reclaim the older device for myself or insist the new device is a family gift and make sure DD understands that it is not hers. I'd go with B. I personally wouldn't be comfortable with an option C where DD thinks the newer device is hers but it really isn't.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: TurtleDove on December 05, 2012, 12:44:48 PM
My daughter's paternal grandparents buy her all sorts of expensive things, like keyboards and electric guitars and computer games.  She is 4.  She plays more with her legos and paper dolls than she does with those things.  She plays with her scissors and glue more than she plays with those things! She doesn't have a concept of the monetary value of her gifts.  I think that is why I am not grasping why some people are so offended that the child would have a gift worth more than the OP's version of the item.  I doubt the DD would even understand that!
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: Bexx27 on December 05, 2012, 12:45:06 PM
I think OP doesn't feel right about allowing Grandpa to give DD the newer iPad and then using it herself while handing DD the older iPad when she asks to play with one. Technically she could tell DD "No, that's your iPad." but that's dishonest, even if the 3yo can't tell the difference.

If I were in OP's shoes I'd feel like my options were either allow GP to give DD the newer device, transfer her apps to it, and reclaim the older device for myself or insist the new device is a family gift and make sure DD understands that it is not hers. I'd go with B. I personally wouldn't be comfortable with an option C where DD thinks the newer device is hers but it really isn't.

Yes, this explains it much better than I've been able to.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: Sharnita on December 05, 2012, 12:46:24 PM
I think OP doesn't feel right about allowing Grandpa to give DD the newer iPad and then using it herself while handing DD the older iPad when she asks to play with one. Technically she could tell DD "No, that's your iPad." but that's dishonest, even if the 3yo can't tell the difference.

If I were in OP's shoes I'd feel like my options were either allow GP to give DD the newer device, transfer her apps to it, and reclaim the older device for myself or insist the new device is a family gift and make sure DD understands that it is not hers. I'd go with B. I personally wouldn't be comfortable with an option C where DD thinks the newer device is hers but it really isn't.

I agree.  I also wouldn't want DD haing it presented as hers but then tell her that reall menat "ours" not "hers".  I do think OP and her DH have the right to address htis again and make it clear the only way they will accept the gift will be under the original terms.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: Mikayla on December 05, 2012, 12:54:35 PM
My daughter's paternal grandparents buy her all sorts of expensive things, like keyboards and electric guitars and computer games.  She is 4.  She plays more with her legos and paper dolls than she does with those things.  She plays with her scissors and glue more than she plays with those things! She doesn't have a concept of the monetary value of her gifts. I think that is why I am not grasping why some people are so offended that the child would have a gift worth more than the OP's version of the item.  I doubt the DD would even understand that!

I agree with this.  I think some of us were talking in more general terms, but with the update, if that's the only significant objection, it is a little puzzling.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: Sharnita on December 05, 2012, 12:59:44 PM
My daughter's paternal grandparents buy her all sorts of expensive things, like keyboards and electric guitars and computer games.  She is 4.  She plays more with her legos and paper dolls than she does with those things.  She plays with her scissors and glue more than she plays with those things! She doesn't have a concept of the monetary value of her gifts. I think that is why I am not grasping why some people are so offended that the child would have a gift worth more than the OP's version of the item.  I doubt the DD would even understand that!

I agree with this.  I think some of us were talking in more general terms, but with the update, if that's the only significant objection, it is a little puzzling.

Honestly isn't the fact that it is a parental objection their kid their household enough?  You set the standards for your kids and household - you are the boss as you rightly pointed out.  Wouldn't this be one of the things for them to be the boss about, at least if it matters to them?  If that is aboundary for them it is a boundary they can and should enforce.  Nobody is saying it should be a universal boundary but once they identify it as theirs why would anybody else challenge it?
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: TurtleDove on December 05, 2012, 01:05:19 PM
Honestly isn't the fact that it is a parental objection their kid their household enough?  You set the standards for your kids and household - you are the boss as you rightly pointed out.  Wouldn't this be one of the things for them to be the boss about, at least if it matters to them?  If that is aboundary for them it is a boundary they can and should enforce.  Nobody is saying it should be a universal boundary but once they identify it as theirs why would anybody else challenge it?

In general I totally agree with your post. Here, the OP was somewhat unclear even in her own mind why she was uncomfortable with the gift, and it wasn't because she didn't want her DD playing on an ipad.  It was because she didn't want her daughter playing on an ipad that is nicer than hers.  That to me is just odd.  I think she can absolutely make whatever rules/boundaries she wants to make - I just found this particular boundary strange given the fact the OP would have been fine with a Leap Pad and already allows her DD to play on an ipad. I can see where the FIL would be equally baffled as to why his gift is not welcome.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: WillyNilly on December 05, 2012, 01:15:47 PM
Honestly isn't the fact that it is a parental objection their kid their household enough?  You set the standards for your kids and household - you are the boss as you rightly pointed out.  Wouldn't this be one of the things for them to be the boss about, at least if it matters to them?  If that is aboundary for them it is a boundary they can and should enforce.  Nobody is saying it should be a universal boundary but once they identify it as theirs why would anybody else challenge it?

In general I totally agree with your post. Here, the OP was somewhat unclear even in her own mind why she was uncomfortable with the gift, and it wasn't because she didn't want her DD playing on an ipad.  It was because she didn't want her daughter playing on an ipad that is nicer than hers.  That to me is just odd.  I think she can absolutely make whatever rules/boundaries she wants to make - I just found this particular boundary strange given the fact the OP would have been fine with a Leap Pad and already allows her DD to play on an ipad. I can see where the FIL would be equally baffled as to why his gift is not welcome.

But that's not it exactly either.  She is also uncomfortable with her daughter owning an iPad of her own, period. While the OP realizes she gets to set usage perimeters an any and all possessions of her child's she still respects when something belongs to her child vs belonging to the family it is not her (OP's) item to do with as she pleases, its actually her daughter's.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: Sharnita on December 05, 2012, 01:18:46 PM
But I don't know that he needs to know "why".  He suggested a gift, they said they'd only be comfortable with it under X set of circumstances.  At that point he can give it under X limits or not givie it.  He is free to choose either option.  He chose to abide by neither and wants to ignore their guidelines.

There are plenty of boundaries and guidelines each of us might feel are confusing because they aren't ours.  Why do some parents settle on a paticular bed time?  Why do they allow that tv program but not this one? Why those diapers? Why that dietary choice for your kids? Why that neighborhood/those friends/thatschool/etc?

I think individuals and families often decide what is right for them without always coming up with the exact explanation why it does not mean they are not sure it is the right choice for them. 
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: TurtleDove on December 05, 2012, 01:21:52 PM
While the OP realizes she gets to set usage perimeters an any and all possessions of her child's she still respects when something belongs to her child vs belonging to the family it is not her (OP's) item to do with as she pleases, its actually her daughter's.

For me this distinction doesn't manifest until the child is much older than 3.  My daughter realizes that Mama is not going to wear her clothes, for example, but she also understands that Mama is in charge and what Mama says, goes, even if DD disagrees with it.  I am having a difficult time understanding how a 3 year old would overrule her parents rules/decisions about the use of the ipad.  I also don't see a problem with having the DD open the ipad and explaining it is for her and everyone.  Unless she is really into that ipad to the exclusion of all other toys and games and colors and cardboard boxes and brooms and beads and _____, I just can't see that this would be an issue.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: Zilla on December 05, 2012, 01:24:09 PM
I stronfly disagree that the presentation doesn't matter. At 3 you are trying to teach them about sharing but also teaching them to respect others' property. Giving a child that age a gift "for them" on Christmas and then having mom and dad try to explain that doesn't really mean it is theirs - totally wrong.
But if it was given to the child as a gift and put up when she isn't using it, why would you have to explain anything?  If a leap pad was given to the child instead, that gift would also be put away to do other things.  What difference does an iPad make?  I think the OP was pointing out the pros and cons and thought of changing it to a family gift but even then she said it isn't needed.  So I would leave it alone and let it be her daughter's and put it away just as she does now with her own iPad for her little girl.

Part of it is that this ipad is a newer model than mine, so DH and I would be inclined to use it ourselves while DD uses my old one. Which is fine if it's a family gift, but seems wrong if the gift is intended for her. Maybe I should just let the newer one be DD's, but it seems silly for a 3-year-old to have a fancier version than her parents, KWIM?
It doesn't bother me.  My oldest dd had a newer iphone than I did simply because her upgrade was first.  It doesn't matter to me if the kids have something "better" than their parents.  I guess my whole thing was that you were fine with her getting a leap pad and now it's changed into an iPad.  Why not just treat it as such if your fil declines it being a family gift?  I would.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: Bexx27 on December 05, 2012, 01:26:10 PM
My daughter's paternal grandparents buy her all sorts of expensive things, like keyboards and electric guitars and computer games.  She is 4.  She plays more with her legos and paper dolls than she does with those things.  She plays with her scissors and glue more than she plays with those things! She doesn't have a concept of the monetary value of her gifts. I think that is why I am not grasping why some people are so offended that the child would have a gift worth more than the OP's version of the item.  I doubt the DD would even understand that!

I agree with this.  I think some of us were talking in more general terms, but with the update, if that's the only significant objection, it is a little puzzling.

DD wouldn't understand it, but the adults involved would. As an analogy, imagine that DD is 16 and FIL wants to give her a car. He buys a new luxury car for himself and gives DD his 3-year-old Lexus. Meanwhile, DH and I drive 10-year-old Honda Civics. Even if DD didn't realize the difference in value, wouldn't it be reasonable for us to be uncomfortable with that, or to prefer that the car is given to the whole family so DH or I could drive it while DD drives one of the Civics?

My real objection is that I just don't like the idea of my 3-year-old owning an ipad, no matter the model. That it's a newer ipad than my own just adds to the absurdity, but it isn't the source of the issue. I don't want the ipad to be exclusively, or even primarily, DD's. FIL seems to expect that DD will only be using his ipad from now on, when in fact I'd like the flexibility for any of us to use either (I assume there are some apps that will work better on the newer model and some where it won't make a difference).
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: Sharnita on December 05, 2012, 01:27:47 PM
While the OP realizes she gets to set usage perimeters an any and all possessions of her child's she still respects when something belongs to her child vs belonging to the family it is not her (OP's) item to do with as she pleases, its actually her daughter's.

For me this distinction doesn't manifest until the child is much older than 3.  My daughter realizes that Mama is not going to wear her clothes, for example, but she also understands that Mama is in charge and what Mama says, goes, even if DD disagrees with it.  I am having a difficult time understanding how a 3 year old would overrule her parents rules/decisions about the use of the ipad.  I also don't see a problem with having the DD open the ipad and explaining it is for her and everyone.  Unless she is really into that ipad to the exclusion of all other toys and games and colors and cardboard boxes and brooms and beads and _____, I just can't see that this would be an issue.

It's not that the 3 year old overrules the parents, it is that the 3 yearold sees parents do not practice what they are asking the 3 year old to do.  "Don't touch that - it's mommy's."  "That is your sister's - you need to ask and get permission before you are allowed to play with it." "Oh, I knw Grandpa said it was yours but we are all going to use it and play with it becasue we have the power to do so and we make the rules."  Sure you are in charge but do you want to establish that being in charge means not following the basic rules of kindness and etiquette?  I mean if yo disregard that why not skip saying "please" and "thank you" too? Does your child overrule you just because you say these things to them when they are a mere 3 years old?
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: Zilla on December 05, 2012, 01:29:16 PM
My daughter's paternal grandparents buy her all sorts of expensive things, like keyboards and electric guitars and computer games.  She is 4.  She plays more with her legos and paper dolls than she does with those things.  She plays with her scissors and glue more than she plays with those things! She doesn't have a concept of the monetary value of her gifts. I think that is why I am not grasping why some people are so offended that the child would have a gift worth more than the OP's version of the item.  I doubt the DD would even understand that!

I agree with this.  I think some of us were talking in more general terms, but with the update, if that's the only significant objection, it is a little puzzling.

DD wouldn't understand it, but the adults involved would. As an analogy, imagine that DD is 16 and FIL wants to give her a car. He buys a new luxury car for himself and gives DD his 3-year-old Lexus. Meanwhile, DH and I drive 10-year-old Honda Civics. Even if DD didn't realize the difference in value, wouldn't it be reasonable for us to be uncomfortable with that, or to prefer that the car is given to the whole family so DH or I could drive it while DD drives one of the Civics?

My real objection is that I just don't like the idea of my 3-year-old owning an ipad, no matter the model. That it's a newer ipad than my own just adds to the absurdity, but it isn't the source of the issue. I don't want the ipad to be exclusively, or even primarily, DD's. FIL seems to expect that DD will only be using his ipad from now on, when in fact I'd like the flexibility for any of us to use either (I assume there are some apps that will work better on the newer model and some where it won't make a difference).
With the car analogy.   I was in that exact situation.  My mom drove an older car and my grandfather gave me a 2 year old car (he bought new every 2 years).  My mom was thrilled for me and it never entered our minds to be uncomfortable that my car was newer than hers.  Or that she was uncomfortable. 
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: Sharnita on December 05, 2012, 01:31:41 PM
I stronfly disagree that the presentation doesn't matter. At 3 you are trying to teach them about sharing but also teaching them to respect others' property. Giving a child that age a gift "for them" on Christmas and then having mom and dad try to explain that doesn't really mean it is theirs - totally wrong.
But if it was given to the child as a gift and put up when she isn't using it, why would you have to explain anything?  If a leap pad was given to the child instead, that gift would also be put away to do other things.  What difference does an iPad make?  I think the OP was pointing out the pros and cons and thought of changing it to a family gift but even then she said it isn't needed.  So I would leave it alone and let it be her daughter's and put it away just as she does now with her own iPad for her little girl.

Part of it is that this ipad is a newer model than mine, so DH and I would be inclined to use it ourselves while DD uses my old one. Which is fine if it's a family gift, but seems wrong if the gift is intended for her. Maybe I should just let the newer one be DD's, but it seems silly for a 3-year-old to have a fancier version than her parents, KWIM?
It doesn't bother me.  My oldest dd had a newer iphone than I did simply because her upgrade was first.  It doesn't matter to me if the kids have something "better" than their parents.  I guess my whole thing was that you were fine with her getting a leap pad and now it's changed into an iPad.  Why not just treat it as such if your fil declines it being a family gift?  I would.

Then you know how to handle it when/if it happens in your house.  The great thinkg is that we each decide these things individually.  Let's say you are strongly opposed to feeding your chhild a certain food, taking them to a certain place, having a certain object in the house, etc.  Would it be really helpful inf OP said "it isn't that big a deal in our house so we have allowed it"?  That doesn't make her solution wrong for her family but it sure wouldn't work for yours.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: Zilla on December 05, 2012, 01:34:49 PM
I stronfly disagree that the presentation doesn't matter. At 3 you are trying to teach them about sharing but also teaching them to respect others' property. Giving a child that age a gift "for them" on Christmas and then having mom and dad try to explain that doesn't really mean it is theirs - totally wrong.
But if it was given to the child as a gift and put up when she isn't using it, why would you have to explain anything?  If a leap pad was given to the child instead, that gift would also be put away to do other things.  What difference does an iPad make?  I think the OP was pointing out the pros and cons and thought of changing it to a family gift but even then she said it isn't needed.  So I would leave it alone and let it be her daughter's and put it away just as she does now with her own iPad for her little girl.

Part of it is that this ipad is a newer model than mine, so DH and I would be inclined to use it ourselves while DD uses my old one. Which is fine if it's a family gift, but seems wrong if the gift is intended for her. Maybe I should just let the newer one be DD's, but it seems silly for a 3-year-old to have a fancier version than her parents, KWIM?
It doesn't bother me.  My oldest dd had a newer iphone than I did simply because her upgrade was first.  It doesn't matter to me if the kids have something "better" than their parents.  I guess my whole thing was that you were fine with her getting a leap pad and now it's changed into an iPad.  Why not just treat it as such if your fil declines it being a family gift?  I would.

Then you know how to handle it when/if it happens in your house.  The great thinkg is that we each decide these things individually.  Let's say you are strongly opposed to feeding your chhild a certain food, taking them to a certain place, having a certain object in the house, etc.  Would it be really helpful inf OP said "it isn't that big a deal in our house so we have allowed it"?  That doesn't make her solution wrong for her family but it sure wouldn't work for yours.
Just in case you didn't know, KWIM means Know what I mean?  And I don't and answered thusly.  Sorry my answer wasn't helpful to you but I explained how I felt to her post directly.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: Bexx27 on December 05, 2012, 01:40:09 PM
My daughter's paternal grandparents buy her all sorts of expensive things, like keyboards and electric guitars and computer games.  She is 4.  She plays more with her legos and paper dolls than she does with those things.  She plays with her scissors and glue more than she plays with those things! She doesn't have a concept of the monetary value of her gifts. I think that is why I am not grasping why some people are so offended that the child would have a gift worth more than the OP's version of the item.  I doubt the DD would even understand that!

I agree with this.  I think some of us were talking in more general terms, but with the update, if that's the only significant objection, it is a little puzzling.

DD wouldn't understand it, but the adults involved would. As an analogy, imagine that DD is 16 and FIL wants to give her a car. He buys a new luxury car for himself and gives DD his 3-year-old Lexus. Meanwhile, DH and I drive 10-year-old Honda Civics. Even if DD didn't realize the difference in value, wouldn't it be reasonable for us to be uncomfortable with that, or to prefer that the car is given to the whole family so DH or I could drive it while DD drives one of the Civics?

My real objection is that I just don't like the idea of my 3-year-old owning an ipad, no matter the model. That it's a newer ipad than my own just adds to the absurdity, but it isn't the source of the issue. I don't want the ipad to be exclusively, or even primarily, DD's. FIL seems to expect that DD will only be using his ipad from now on, when in fact I'd like the flexibility for any of us to use either (I assume there are some apps that will work better on the newer model and some where it won't make a difference).
With the car analogy.   I was in that exact situation.  My mom drove an older car and my grandfather gave me a 2 year old car (he bought new every 2 years).  My mom was thrilled for me and it never entered our minds to be uncomfortable that my car was newer than hers.  Or that she was uncomfortable.

Well, I would be uncomfortable with my 16-year-old having a car for her exclusive use at all, but I realize that varies by family.

Again, it's not about her having better things than me. It's about not wanting her to own certain things at all. I think many parents would agree that giving a child expensive electronics or luxury cars or whatever could be seen as spoiling her. It just seems slightly more spoil-y if the parents don't even have those things themselves. Maybe that's irrational on my part. I really do appreciate your comments and you're helping me clarify and challenge the reasoning behind my feelings. You may end up swaying me.  :)
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: TurtleDove on December 05, 2012, 01:40:25 PM
Just reiterate that we don't want the ipad to be a gift for DD specifically, don't want it wrapped for her to open, etc.? Does that sound rude and/or entitled? (As in, "don't give that to my child, give it to meeeee!")If it's rude to dictate the terms/recipient of the gift, is it better to outright refuse it? Would it be extra rude to try to steer FIL back to the LeapPad idea, especially since that would cost him an extra $100? (I'm assuming he'd get himself an ipad mini anyway and isn't just getting it in order to pass on his ipad2 to DD.)

This is from the OP and maybe I missed an update, but I never did see that the FIL is demanding that the ipad be used only by DD, and I don't see how having the DD open a family gift is scarring her in some way.  My responses in this thread related to the bolded, and yes, I do think that sounds rude and entitled. I didn't see where the FIL intended to somehow monitor the ipad so that only DD got to use it or something.  I just don't understand the problem, aside from the OP wants the fancier ipad for herself.

I think the OP can make whatever rules she wants.  I think a rule that her DD cannot use a gift nicer than what she has is strange.  I also think it is strange to not allow a 3 year old to open a gift and explain that the OP gets to decide how and when that gift is used. 
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: otterwoman on December 05, 2012, 01:42:52 PM
My DD was given an iPad for Christmas last year from her grandmother. DD was 3 years old. I was very grateful to my stepmom for doing that for DD (DD is autistic, she has apps designed specifically for autistic children on it). DD knows it's hers, but I put it away when she's not playing with it, and I control what apps she has on it.

I also know it belongs to DD. I don't put any apps on it for me. I do play with it after DD is in bed. Yes, I'm a little jealous that my daughter has an iPad and I don't, but I am touched that she loved my DD so much to do that for her.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: Mikayla on December 05, 2012, 01:43:49 PM
My daughter's paternal grandparents buy her all sorts of expensive things, like keyboards and electric guitars and computer games.  She is 4.  She plays more with her legos and paper dolls than she does with those things.  She plays with her scissors and glue more than she plays with those things! She doesn't have a concept of the monetary value of her gifts. I think that is why I am not grasping why some people are so offended that the child would have a gift worth more than the OP's version of the item.  I doubt the DD would even understand that!

I agree with this.  I think some of us were talking in more general terms, but with the update, if that's the only significant objection, it is a little puzzling.

DD wouldn't understand it, but the adults involved would. As an analogy, imagine that DD is 16 and FIL wants to give her a car. He buys a new luxury car for himself and gives DD his 3-year-old Lexus. Meanwhile, DH and I drive 10-year-old Honda Civics. Even if DD didn't realize the difference in value, wouldn't it be reasonable for us to be uncomfortable with that, or to prefer that the car is given to the whole family so DH or I could drive it while DD drives one of the Civics?

My real objection is that I just don't like the idea of my 3-year-old owning an ipad, no matter the model. That it's a newer ipad than my own just adds to the absurdity,but it isn't the source of the issue. I don't want the ipad to be exclusively, or even primarily, DD's. FIL seems to expect that DD will only be using his ipad from now on, when in fact I'd like the flexibility for any of us to use either (I assume there are some apps that will work better on the newer model and some where it won't make a difference).

On the bolded, if this is true, then I'd suggest that whoever talks to Grandpa just mention this and leave out the newer model aspect.

Reading through this again, you did emphasize the newer model thing quite a bit, and I just don't think there's any reason to complicate your feelings by bringing it up.  It does beg for questions or attempts at clarification, and not wanting a toddler to have a pricy electronic as her own is much more clearcut.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: TurtleDove on December 05, 2012, 01:47:21 PM
Reading through this again, you did emphasize the newer model thing quite a bit, and I just don't think there's any reason to complicate your feelings by bringing it up.  It does beg for questions or attempts at clarification, and not wanting a toddler to have a pricy electronic as her own is much more clearcut.

POD.  I also think it is confusing that you are allowing DD to play with an ipad but don't want her to "own" one.  At 3, I don't think this distinction is present.  Your DD just wants to play with the ipad when Mama or Daddy says it's okay, presumably.  The fact DD "owns" it wouldn't (or shouldn't, in my opinion) change the fact she still has to listen to Mama and Daddy.  I think that is where I am just not "getting" the issue here.  Just because my DD "owns" glittery flip-flops with a sparkly butterfly doesn't mean that if I say she can't wear them to play in the snow I am overruled.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: Take2 on December 05, 2012, 01:59:30 PM
My 6yo recently decided our family is poor because the 7yo next-door neighbor got an ipad for his birthday. When my 6yo, who gets to use my ipad as much as I would allow her to use one of her own (and there is never conflict, because I rarely use it for anything, anyway), asked me if SHE could have one for her birthday, I said that is too expensive. I didn't get into the details, really that is too expensive for the minimal value it would have to her. It is too expensive a toy to allow her to play with it in the driveway with neighbors on bikes whizzing past, as neighbor child was allowed. Truly, my children want for nothing and have most of their heart's desires...but I would not let either of them own an ipad. My 10yo stepson, sure.

Anyway, I agree with others about the concept of ownership. I am very careful to make consistent and fair rules about sharing and ownership. Both of my children at 3 would have understood the concept of an item they own but have limited access to, no issue. But while both of my children were and are very sweet to willingly share all their belongings with their parents and everyone else, they would expect and deserve to be asked before borrowing an item that is theirs. If that isn't the situation I wanted with an electronic devise, I would not allow it to be gifted exclusively to one of my children.

I still remember times when adults disrespected me by assuming my rights of ownership were less because I was a small child. I think saying that something belongs to a child but has to be shared whenever the grownup wants to use it is only fair if the same thing holds true in reverse. Which I can't imagine being the case.

Look, if I want to cut a piece of paper and my 6yo is using her scissors, I need to ask her to borrow them and acknowledge her superior claim to those scissors. Just as if she wants to type on my computer, she has to ask and acknowledge my superior claim to that computer if I am already reading an article or something. This is not the same as being over-ruled due to practical concerns.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: TurtleDove on December 05, 2012, 02:02:42 PM
I still remember times when adults disrespected me by assuming my rights of ownership were less because I was a small child. I think saying that something belongs to a child but has to be shared whenever the grownup wants to use it is only fair if the same thing holds true in reverse. Which I can't imagine being the case.
Especially at three, I think a child's ownership rights are less because they are a small child.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: JenJay on December 05, 2012, 02:06:04 PM
Reading through this again, you did emphasize the newer model thing quite a bit, and I just don't think there's any reason to complicate your feelings by bringing it up.  It does beg for questions or attempts at clarification, and not wanting a toddler to have a pricy electronic as her own is much more clearcut.

POD.  I also think it is confusing that you are allowing DD to play with an ipad but don't want her to "own" one.  At 3, I don't think this distinction is present.  Your DD just wants to play with the ipad when Mama or Daddy says it's okay, presumably.  The fact DD "owns" it wouldn't (or shouldn't, in my opinion) change the fact she still has to listen to Mama and Daddy.  I think that is where I am just not "getting" the issue here.  Just because my DD "owns" glittery flip-flops with a sparkly butterfly doesn't mean that if I say she can't wear them to play in the snow I am overruled.

I don't think OP is as concerned with how her DD feels about the iPad and who owns it, I get the impression the main issues are 1) Who FIL intends to gift it to (DD solely or the family) and 2) That OP and her DH want to have use of it as well, for their own purposes, and how they feel about doing that if FIL's intention is that it be for DD only.

Of course they can still use it if it's "DD's" but I sense they don't feel right about it. That's why they want to make the distinction as much with FIL as with DD that they are only willing to accept the gift if it's for everyone. Either that or go ahead and let him give it to DD and make peace with the fact that it is hers and they will not use it. (Again, not that this would be a hard and fast rule for everyone, but OP and her DH would feel this way).

(Re the spam stuff, problem resolved with a cache clear.  :))
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: O'Dell on December 05, 2012, 02:12:25 PM
I'm not seeing it JenJay.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: Eden on December 05, 2012, 02:12:45 PM
Reading through this again, you did emphasize the newer model thing quite a bit, and I just don't think there's any reason to complicate your feelings by bringing it up.  It does beg for questions or attempts at clarification, and not wanting a toddler to have a pricy electronic as her own is much more clearcut.

POD.  I also think it is confusing that you are allowing DD to play with an ipad but don't want her to "own" one.  At 3, I don't think this distinction is present.  Your DD just wants to play with the ipad when Mama or Daddy says it's okay, presumably.  The fact DD "owns" it wouldn't (or shouldn't, in my opinion) change the fact she still has to listen to Mama and Daddy.  I think that is where I am just not "getting" the issue here.  Just because my DD "owns" glittery flip-flops with a sparkly butterfly doesn't mean that if I say she can't wear them to play in the snow I am overruled.

I don't think OP is concerned with how her DD feels about the iPad and who owns it, I get the impression the issues are 1) Who FIL intends to gift it to (DD solely or the family) and 2) That OP and her DH want to have use of it as well, for their own purposes, and how they feel about doing that if FIL's intention is that it be for DD only.

Of course they can still use it if it's "DD's" but I sense they don't feel right about it. That's why they want to make the distinction as much with FIL as with DD that they are only willing to accept the gift if it's for everyone. Either that or go ahead and let him give it to DD and make peace with the fact that it is hers and they will not use it. (Again, not that this would be a hard and fast rule for everyone, but OP and her DH would feel this way).

Edited to add - When I posted this the word "gift" became underlined and when I hover over it I get a pop-up add. What the heck? Is that something the site did or my computer?  >:(

Edit #2 - Okay, now the word "computer" is doing it. Are you all seeing this or just me??

I guess the thing I'm not comfortable with from an etiquette standpoint is truly that they don't care if DD has an iPad, but they want to use it so they want it to be for the family. I think it's a little unfair to place that kind of a requirement on a gift giver. I think it's within the bounds of etiquette to say no to a gift they do now wish their child to have. I think it's okay to SUGGEST it would be a great gift for the whole family. But if Grandpa still wants to give it to DD solely, isn't that his perogative? Then it is up to the OP whether or not she is comfortable using it as well, but that's sort of her issue not Grandpa's.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: Bexx27 on December 05, 2012, 02:14:54 PM
Reading through this again, you did emphasize the newer model thing quite a bit, and I just don't think there's any reason to complicate your feelings by bringing it up.  It does beg for questions or attempts at clarification, and not wanting a toddler to have a pricy electronic as her own is much more clearcut.

POD.  I also think it is confusing that you are allowing DD to play with an ipad but don't want her to "own" one.  At 3, I don't think this distinction is present.  Your DD just wants to play with the ipad when Mama or Daddy says it's okay, presumably.  The fact DD "owns" it wouldn't (or shouldn't, in my opinion) change the fact she still has to listen to Mama and Daddy.  I think that is where I am just not "getting" the issue here.  Just because my DD "owns" glittery flip-flops with a sparkly butterfly doesn't mean that if I say she can't wear them to play in the snow I am overruled.

1. No, I didn't emphasize the model thing quite a bit in my OP. I mentioned the models involved to explain that FIL was "handing down" his ipad rather than buying a new one for DD. The only other time I mentioned it was in a parenthetical comment about a joke DH made, adding at the same time that spoiling DD rather than giving her "better stuff than mine" was the real issue. The reason it's been emphasized so much in the thread is because other posters picked up on it. Once again, it's not the point and my objection has nothing to do with the model. I would feel the same way if he wanted to giver her an ipad1.

2. I understand that I can choose how and when DD uses the ipad. The issue is FIL's expectation that she will use it exclusively. It seems dishonest to use it differently than he intends.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: Take2 on December 05, 2012, 02:15:39 PM
Especially at three, I think a child's ownership rights are less because they are a small child.

How so? A child's ownership rights are mitigated by usage constraints placed for their safety/health/well-being. But otherwise, a child's ownership of anything is purely for the purpose of learning how ownership works. Why would their rights as owners be less, and in what way?
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: Bexx27 on December 05, 2012, 02:22:49 PM
Reading through this again, you did emphasize the newer model thing quite a bit, and I just don't think there's any reason to complicate your feelings by bringing it up.  It does beg for questions or attempts at clarification, and not wanting a toddler to have a pricy electronic as her own is much more clearcut.

POD.  I also think it is confusing that you are allowing DD to play with an ipad but don't want her to "own" one.  At 3, I don't think this distinction is present.  Your DD just wants to play with the ipad when Mama or Daddy says it's okay, presumably.  The fact DD "owns" it wouldn't (or shouldn't, in my opinion) change the fact she still has to listen to Mama and Daddy.  I think that is where I am just not "getting" the issue here.  Just because my DD "owns" glittery flip-flops with a sparkly butterfly doesn't mean that if I say she can't wear them to play in the snow I am overruled.

I don't think OP is concerned with how her DD feels about the iPad and who owns it, I get the impression the issues are 1) Who FIL intends to gift it to (DD solely or the family) and 2) That OP and her DH want to have use of it as well, for their own purposes, and how they feel about doing that if FIL's intention is that it be for DD only.

Of course they can still use it if it's "DD's" but I sense they don't feel right about it. That's why they want to make the distinction as much with FIL as with DD that they are only willing to accept the gift if it's for everyone. Either that or go ahead and let him give it to DD and make peace with the fact that it is hers and they will not use it. (Again, not that this would be a hard and fast rule for everyone, but OP and her DH would feel this way).

Edited to add - When I posted this the word "gift" became underlined and when I hover over it I get a pop-up add. What the heck? Is that something the site did or my computer?  >:(

Edit #2 - Okay, now the word "computer" is doing it. Are you all seeing this or just me??

I guess the thing I'm not comfortable with from an etiquette standpoint is truly that they don't care if DD has an iPad, but they want to use it so they want it to be for the family. I think it's a little unfair to place that kind of a requirement on a gift giver. I think it's within the bounds of etiquette to say no to a gift they do now wish their child to have. I think it's okay to SUGGEST it would be a great gift for the whole family. But if Grandpa still wants to give it to DD solely, isn't that his perogative? Then it is up to the OP whether or not she is comfortable using it as well, but that's sort of her issue not Grandpa's.

This is untrue. I don't want DD to have an ipad at all. I don't particularly want "the family" to have another ipad. The "giving it to the family" idea was supposed to be a compromise, not a request. If we'd just said no to the ipad it would have seemed greedier because the original suggestion was an expensive (but at least age appropriate) Leap Pad whereas giving DD the ipad costs FIL nothing. So we couldn't exactly respond with, "no, we'd rather you spend $100 on a Leap Pad."

I am feeling really attacked by posters who are assuming I just want a better ipad for myself. I said from the beginning that I don't, but it's a nice and generous gift.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: DragonKitty on December 05, 2012, 02:30:33 PM
Bexx, I understand where you are coming from.  It is not an age-appropriate gift, sort of like giving an NC-17 or X-rated movie or game to a toddler. 
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: TurtleDove on December 05, 2012, 02:40:14 PM
Especially at three, I think a child's ownership rights are less because they are a small child.

How so? A child's ownership rights are mitigated by usage constraints placed for their safety/health/well-being. But otherwise, a child's ownership of anything is purely for the purpose of learning how ownership works. Why would their rights as owners be less, and in what way?

In the bolded way, for starters.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: AustenFan on December 05, 2012, 02:40:52 PM
I guess the thing I'm not comfortable with from an etiquette standpoint is truly that they don't care if DD has an iPad, but they want to use it so they want it to be for the family. I think it's a little unfair to place that kind of a requirement on a gift giver. I think it's within the bounds of etiquette to say no to a gift they do now wish their child to have. I think it's okay to SUGGEST it would be a great gift for the whole family. But if Grandpa still wants to give it to DD solely, isn't that his perogative? Then it is up to the OP whether or not she is comfortable using it as well, but that's sort of her issue not Grandpa's.

POD. Since when is it OK to dictate the terms under which someone gives a gift?

It's not as if the FIL were giving the child something dangerous or that the OP is completely opposed to. It's not as if he were undermining her parenting or encouraging something OP is firmly against. He is giving the daughter something he knows she will use and appreciate, and something that will grow with her. To say "we can only accept that as a gift for all of us" seems inappropriate to me, especially when there is already one in the household.

Either tell him you can't accept it at all or accept it as it's given, but don't try to dictate the terms a gift can be given under.

I don't understand how an iPad isn't an age-appropriate gift when the whole point is that it can be tailored to the user. There is nothing inherently inappropriate about an iPad, and comparing it to a product aimed at adults that cannot be tailored is comparing apples to martians.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: Zilla on December 05, 2012, 02:41:19 PM
Bexx, I understand where you are coming from.  It is not an age-appropriate gift, sort of like giving an NC-17 or X-rated movie or game to a toddler.
???  That's quite a leap there.
 
OP, I read back on the thread and you actually do mention it a few times about children having a "better" item than parents and how it's uncomfortable or it should be for the family use instead.  You have your reasons why you aren't comfortable with the gift, and that is enough to decline it.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: TurtleDove on December 05, 2012, 02:42:06 PM
Bexx, I understand where you are coming from.  It is not an age-appropriate gift, sort of like giving an NC-17 or X-rated movie or game to a toddler.

I agree that it is not an age appropriate gift, in my opinion.  But I don't understand why the OP would think this since she allows her DD to play on one.  To her DD, this is six of one and half dozen of the other.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: AustenFan on December 05, 2012, 02:44:00 PM
Can someone please explain what makes it inappropriate?
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: WillyNilly on December 05, 2012, 02:46:23 PM
My 6yo recently decided our family is poor because the 7yo next-door neighbor got an ipad for his birthday. When my 6yo, who gets to use my ipad as much as I would allow her to use one of her own (and there is never conflict, because I rarely use it for anything, anyway), asked me if SHE could have one for her birthday, I said that is too expensive. I didn't get into the details, really that is too expensive for the minimal value it would have to her. It is too expensive a toy to allow her to play with it in the driveway with neighbors on bikes whizzing past, as neighbor child was allowed. Truly, my children want for nothing and have most of their heart's desires...but I would not let either of them own an ipad. My 10yo stepson, sure.

Anyway, I agree with others about the concept of ownership. I am very careful to make consistent and fair rules about sharing and ownership. Both of my children at 3 would have understood the concept of an item they own but have limited access to, no issue. But while both of my children were and are very sweet to willingly share all their belongings with their parents and everyone else, they would expect and deserve to be asked before borrowing an item that is theirs. If that isn't the situation I wanted with an electronic devise, I would not allow it to be gifted exclusively to one of my children.

I still remember times when adults disrespected me by assuming my rights of ownership were less because I was a small child. I think saying that something belongs to a child but has to be shared whenever the grownup wants to use it is only fair if the same thing holds true in reverse. Which I can't imagine being the case.

Look, if I want to cut a piece of paper and my 6yo is using her scissors, I need to ask her to borrow them and acknowledge her superior claim to those scissors. Just as if she wants to type on my computer, she has to ask and acknowledge my superior claim to that computer if I am already reading an article or something. This is not the same as being over-ruled due to practical concerns.

I absolutely agree with this.  I believe one of the best practices a parent can establish is consistency.  And the reality is ownership is a big issue in real life and therefore establishing a clear and consistent set of rules and processes regarding ownership from before the child fully understands the concept is very very important so they grow into understanding it as a constant.

I remember knowing what was mine, what was my brother's, what was my parents and what was shared and different rules regarding each.  I think I would have been confused and quite frankly ticked off if I'd been set up with no sense of true ownership (my own or someone else's or group ownership) as a young child and then suddenly had that change sprung on me when I was a bit older.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: TurtleDove on December 05, 2012, 02:47:00 PM
Can someone please explain what makes it inappropriate?

For me, I try to limit my child's "screen time," whether this is television, movies, or computer related things.  I prefer to have her physically active or doing creative things like building with blocks or legos or playing house with her dolls.  I grasp not all parents agree with that approach and I am not saying one way is better than the other, just that that is why, for me, and ipad would be inappropriate for my four year old.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: Bexx27 on December 05, 2012, 02:48:45 PM
Bexx, I understand where you are coming from.  It is not an age-appropriate gift, sort of like giving an NC-17 or X-rated movie or game to a toddler.
???  That's quite a leap there.
 
OP, I read back on the thread and you actually do mention it a few times about children having a "better" item than parents and how it's uncomfortable or it should be for the family use instead.  You have your reasons why you aren't comfortable with the gift, and that is enough to decline it.

That was in response to other posters, not something I spontaneously brought up except as an extra layer of absurdity to a 3-year-old owning an ipad.

To those of you who say it's rude to dictate the terms of the gift and better to just decline it, that was exactly my question. So, thanks. I think there are many parents who would be uncomfortable with expensive electronics for their preschoolers' exclusive use, so while you might change my mind on that, you won't convince me that it's unreasonable to feel uncomfortable with it in the first place.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: TurtleDove on December 05, 2012, 02:53:43 PM
expensive electronics for their preschoolers' exclusive use

I must have missed this part - I grasp the FIL wants to have DD open the ipad and refers to it as "DD's ipad" but has he actually demanded that only DD use it?  I don't think he can do that, or even if he made the demand, you certainly would not have to abide by it.  To go back to my wheelhouse, the pink set of legos are my DDs.  They were given to her.  She owns them.  However, I decide when she can and cannot play with them, and if her grandma demanded that I not play with the legos along with her I would think she were insane.  I don't even know that a preschooler could operate an ipad exclusively on her own.  Does she understand how to charge it?  Download apps?  Etc? 

Is the FIL seriously demanding that the parents not use the ipad?
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: Bexx27 on December 05, 2012, 02:54:01 PM
Can someone please explain what makes it inappropriate?

For me there's nothing inappropriate about a 3-year-old playing with an ipad. What makes me uncomfortable is the extravagance of the gift and the worry of spoiling my child by allowing her to really "own" something like that at her age. It sets up her expectations for future gifts.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: Bexx27 on December 05, 2012, 02:57:46 PM
expensive electronics for their preschoolers' exclusive use

I must have missed this part - I grasp the FIL wants to have DD open the ipad and refers to it as "DD's ipad" but has he actually demanded that only DD use it?  I don't think he can do that, or even if he made the demand, you certainly would not have to abide by it.  To go back to my wheelhouse, the pink set of legos are my DDs.  They were given to her.  She owns them.  However, I decide when she can and cannot play with them, and if her grandma demanded that I not play with the legos along with her I would think she were insane.  I don't even know that a preschooler could operate an ipad exclusively on her own.  Does she understand how to charge it?  Download apps?  Etc? 

Is the FIL seriously demanding that the parents not use the ipad?

He hasn't said that DH and I "can't" use it, but if it's presented as hers, then it's up to her to "share" it with us. He's also talked about putting apps on it and transferring the apps from my ipad, indicating she won't be using mine anymore now that she has her own.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: AustenFan on December 05, 2012, 02:58:17 PM
That was in response to other posters, not something I spontaneously brought up except as an extra layer of absurdity to a 3-year-old owning an ipad.

To those of you who say it's rude to dictate the terms of the gift and better to just decline it, that was exactly my question. So, thanks. I think there are many parents who would be uncomfortable with expensive electronics for their preschoolers' exclusive use, so while you might change my mind on that, you won't convince me that it's unreasonable to feel uncomfortable with it in the first place.

You may grow more accustomed to the idea as your daughter gets older (which doesn't help now, I know!). My son started the campaign for an iPhone at age 8. It seemed obscene to me until I realized how many of his classmates have one, and how cheap it is to add one onto an existing plan. He is 10 now and has his own tablet and iPhone, the tablet isn't an iPad since he needs Flash to watch required homework videos for school, but many of his friends have their own laptops and he will probably be getting one next year. 
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: bah12 on December 05, 2012, 03:05:33 PM
Jumping in late with my 2 cents, but here it is:

I do sort of think that you are being unreasonable about "DD's ipad".  Just because she opens the ipad and would consider it hers doesn't mean that you, as her parent, can't set some limits on it's use (when and how) or that she can't be asked to share it with you from time to time.  This is a child that has already dremonstrated the maturity and the ability to handle an ipad, so I don't think it's inappropriate from that stand point either. 

That being said, I do think that your FIL should respect your wishes as far as the type of gifts he gives to your DD.  If you feel that the gift is somehow too extravagant, or innappropriate for her, then you have the right to share those concerns with him.  I'm a little bothered by you telling him that he needs to gift the ipad to the whole family and not wrap it or put it under the tree, mostly because I don't think it's fully polite to dictate how someone gifts you (outside of parental limits on children's toys).  That may make it seem like he now has to spend money to get your DD something that she can open, especially since he seems to focus on the part of her opening the present. 

At the end of the day, though, you just need to decide how important this is to you.  If you really don't want her to have the ipad, then tell your FIL "no" (and in that case, don't have him gift it to you either).  For me, as the mother of a 3 year old, this wouldn't be my hill.  Any concerns about my child having an ipad (and your concerns it seems as well) can be addressed with parenting decisions of how and how often it's used.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: Peregrine on December 05, 2012, 03:37:46 PM
Bexx,  I think this is one of those things that you are just going to have to go with your gut on.....I completely understand the visceral reaction to a toddler "owning" a high priced I-device.  The connectedness of society is something that as parents we all have to figure out how to navigate for ourselves and children.  I remember being absolutely appalled3 years ago that an aquaintance's child had his "own" I-pad at the age of 20 mos. However, both his parents were in Hi-tech and it was just a previous generation I-pad that the family retained after the parents upgraded.  The idea that elementary school kids have their own laptops and cell phones is equally as foreign to me...I'm in my mid-30's and didn't have a cell phone until I was 21, and living away from home for the first time in college.

Now, having my own son who is 2 and starting to have to navigate these issues in our family, the issue of ownership and electronics seems much more murky.  In all honesty, my own opinion on this is kind of like Bah12, in an otherwise harmonious relationship with my in-laws, this wouldn't be my hill to die on.  I wouldn't worry overly much about how she is going to view the gift 5 years down the road, as much as anything, because technology will have completely moved on, and it will be something different.  Who knows, every elementary school kid may be issued an I-pad rather than school books in 5 years time...and it will just be an accepted part of growing up.

I wish you the best of luck figuring out how to navigate this issue in your family.  I know that the with the speed that technology is changing and evolving has led me to completely re-think how I had planned to parent my son....and I'm sure that I will have to re-think that again and again and again as he gets older  ???
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: Bexx27 on December 05, 2012, 03:42:43 PM
Thanks, all. I'm thinking we will just reiterate to FIL that we don't want the ipad to belong exclusively to DD and make sure he's OK with that. We won't object to her unwrapping it.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: Eden on December 05, 2012, 04:11:36 PM
This is untrue. I don't want DD to have an ipad at all. I don't particularly want "the family" to have another ipad. The "giving it to the family" idea was supposed to be a compromise, not a request.

I see. I didn't understand that from the previous posts. My mistake. Anyway, it sounds like you've found a good approach that you're comfortable with.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: lisastitch on December 05, 2012, 07:07:05 PM
There are a  number of issues at play here, but in terms of "ownership"--let's say the family has one of the big 64-crayon sets.  It's still good.  It's used by all the family.  Grandpa wants to give granddaughter her own set of 64 crayons.  This will be hers.  Mom and Dad can tell her it's time to stop coloring, they can tell her not to crayon on the walls, they can tell her not to break the crayons--but if one of them wants to take the set of crayons to work for a project, they really should ask her permission because the crayons do belong to her.

A 3yo child understands the concept of "mine" and is working on concepts of "ours" and of sharing.  Having a box of crayons that is "hers" but that is treated as "ours" is confusing.

Good luck, OP.  I think your reaction is reasonable.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: LifeOnPluto on December 05, 2012, 08:17:19 PM
Can someone please explain what makes it inappropriate?

For me there's nothing inappropriate about a 3-year-old playing with an ipad. What makes me uncomfortable is the extravagance of the gift and the worry of spoiling my child by allowing her to really "own" something like that at her age. It sets up her expectations for future gifts.

I think that's an entirely reasonable concern. I'm not a parent, but I would not be comfortable with my hypothetical toddler owning an expensive piece of equipment either.

Hope things work out, and that your FIL respects your wishes for it to be a family gift.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: doodlemor on December 05, 2012, 10:42:11 PM
Something about this whole thing just seems a bit *off* to me, Bexx.  You stated that FIL has not been a boundary pusher in the past.  I fear that it may be starting now, though.

Your child is no longer a baby or toddler, but has become an interesting little person.  She is much more fun for everyone now, including FIL. 

I think that what bothers me is that it seems like FIL is usurping your parental rights a bit by insisting that he wrap up the device and give it to DD.  He was told not to do this, but persists.  Another example of boundary trampling is is disapproval of your DH taking DD for a father-daughter activity over Thanksgiving.

IMHO DH needs to talk to his father, and insist that FIL abides by the boundaries which you and DH have already set.  FIL needs to realize that you and DH are the parents, and set the rules concerning the raising of your DD.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: bah12 on December 06, 2012, 11:51:49 AM
My perspective on this comes from my own parenting of a 3 year old.  She definitely understands the concept of "mine" and "ours" and she knows the difference between what is hers and what is not hers and what is the family's.  But, she has parents.  And she knows that her parents set the rules.  Just because something is "hers", it doesn't mean that I can't set limits on use.  She has some toys that are basically "free play" which means she can play whenever she's not being told to do something else (nap, bathe, eat, etc).  And she has some toys that she can only play with at certain times for a limited amount of time.  She must share everything.  That doesn't mean that anyone can come in whenever they want and take her stuff.  We respect her and her things and ask her to share when she's not otherwise fully engaged in permitted play with that item.

For example, say she has a book.  It's her book.  She's allowed to take her book and flip through the pages and "read" her book whenever she wants.  She is not allowed to write in her book, rip the pages, or take the book outside and drag it through the mud.  Those are the limits that I set on how she plays with it, even though it is "hers".  Because she has shown the maturity to use the books within the limits I set, I allow her to have books.  Sometimes, we read the books together (I read them to her), they are still her books, but we are both using them.  Sometimes, I might want to read one of her books by myself.  I ask her if I can take her book and read it (or say another child asks that).  If she's not actively using the book at the time, I pretty much allow her to be open with sharing it with whoever asks.  She doesn't get to say "no" just because she wants to.  She does get to say "no" to another child when they don't take care of her things (break, not give back, etc), but otherwise, she understands that her things are given to her with the caveat of sharing.

I get that some parents feel differently and don't want to force their children to share things that are 100% theirs, so I recognize that my opinion on "sharing" the ipad with parents is based on how I parent, and not necessarily how the OP chooses to parent.

What my DD does not yet have the concept of is monetary value.  She just turned 3 and while she knows what money is and that we have to use to bring things home from the store, she doesn't know the difference between a $500 ipad and a $100 leappad.  All she knows is that it's something that she likes playing with.  A $5 toy that she gets a lot of enjoyment out of is much more "valuable" to her than a $500 porcelain doll she isn't allowed to play with.
So, in terms of expectations for future gifts, at this point in her development she isn't thinking "Grandpa spent $500 on me last year, so he has to spend at least $600 on me on my birthday."  Where we do set expectations is in that just because she asks for something doesn't mean she's going to get it on the spot (or at all) and that wanting something, and having it are not equal.  It's just the monetary value of those things don't get come into play for her, because right now, she just doesn't get it.

That being said, I do get the concern in not wanting to spoil your child.  And as a parent, you have the right to make these parenting decisions.  And your FIL must respect them.

So, for me, the bottom line is that your FIL is rude to purposely push the boundaries that you set and the limits that you pose on your child.  You, also, shouldn't tell him that he has to gift the ipad to your family (I get that it was a compromise), just that you don't want him to give it to your daughter because you don't want her to have her own.  That's all valid.  Everything else, as far as why you don't want her to have her own ipad, is really a parenting issue.  We don't have to agree on it.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: NyaChan on December 06, 2012, 01:37:04 PM
I think that you should explain to your FIL exactly how the gift will be used if he chooses to give it.  "FIL, I want to make sure we are on the same page regarding DD's gifts this Christmas.  We are not comfortable with her owning an ipad at this age.  If you give her your old ipad, DD will not be using it.  If you still want us to have it and gift it to the family, (insert explanation of how you plan to use the ipad, i.e. I will be using the one you give us and DD will have exclusive use of my old iPad)
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: TurtleDove on December 06, 2012, 01:59:38 PM
I think that you should explain to your FIL exactly how the gift will be used if he chooses to give it.  "FIL, I want to make sure we are on the same page regarding DD's gifts this Christmas.  We are not comfortable with her owning an ipad at this age.  If you give her your old ipad, DD will not be using it.  If you still want us to have it and gift it to the family, (insert explanation of how you plan to use the ipad, i.e. I will be using the one you give us and DD will have exclusive use of my old iPad)

Is this what the OP would intend though?  If yes, I go back to my initial thought that this is entitled and just off somehow to me, because it makes it about "I don't want my daughter to have a nicer item than I do."

I think bah12's post was good - I really think the OP's concerns, at least as I understand them, about the 3 year old "owning" the ipad can be addressed with setting rules as her parent.  A 3 year old is different from an adult in terms of ownership, and even different from a 6 year old or 10 year old. 
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: bah12 on December 06, 2012, 02:10:40 PM
OP, I'm curious...how would you handle this kind of gift if it was given without your input?  In other words, if you had no idea what the present was and she opened it and it was an ipad, would you take it from her, limit it's use, share it with her, or something else?

I still say that your FIL asked for your input and he does need to respect your wishes (regardless of agreement on it), but as far as your concerns go with her having the ipad, does her getting it anyway change how you have her use it?  Would you still have her use it the way you'd prefer for her to use it (with a conversation/explanation to your child) or do you consider that once it's given to her, it's hers, and your stuck with her having/using something you'd prefer she didn't?
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: LilacGirl1983 on December 06, 2012, 02:14:02 PM
I am wading into this a bit late with my thoughts  ::)  I wouldn't be comfortable with a gift that expensive for my daughter. Plus it doesn't even really seem to be a gift. To me it seems like here I don't need this anymore..what to do with it? I know give it to the niece. I might be a little SS but I find hand me down gifts a little demeaning unless its something the person wants (ie value to the person) It seems like an easy way to get rid of things you don't want. And the fact he is disregarding what the parent wants. The 3 year old won't care if its an Ipad 2 or a leapster but I can tell you that the leapster probably will last longer since its meant for children. I think the uncle needs to go with what the parents want and find someone else who would want his left over goods.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: TurtleDove on December 06, 2012, 02:18:26 PM
I think the uncle needs to go with what the parents want and find someone else who would want his left over goods.

As I understand it, though, the parent wants the "leftover goods" for herself!  The problem isn't that she doesn't want her DD to use an ipad.  It's that she doesn't want her DD to use an ipad that is nicer than hers, and that to me is strange, especially becuase as the parent she gets to make the rules (at least in my house).  I would imagine the FIL is just as confused as I am about the motivation behind the OP's discomfort.  I still don't get it.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: Lynn2000 on December 06, 2012, 02:49:21 PM
To me, the iPad is kind of a red herring. I see the situation as, FIL wanted to give something specific to his granddaughter, so he went to the parents to ask first, which is good. The parents and FIL came to an agreement about what FIL would give and how he would give it. It was a compromise, not the parents' first choice and not FIL's either, but it was what they agreed to.

Now FIL is making noises about changing that agreement, and going ahead with his first choice plan. To me that's not polite. He should abide by the agreement he made with the parents. He can politely ask to make a new agreement but has to accept that 'no' might be the answer. And I guess, since he's the one giving something, he can decide to completely back out, and not give anything at all, though this would be flaky barring extenuating circumstances.

But it seems to me like he agreed to something with the parents, and now is turning around and saying he's going to do what he wanted in the first place instead. And I don't necessarily think it has to be malicious or controlling, he may not realize that this part of the agreement was important to the parents--he might think of it as a mere detail (though they explained otherwise).

I think someone should be able to politely say to him, "Oh, FIL, I thought we agreed that would be a family gift for all of us, and that it would NOT be wrapped or given directly to DD. Have you changed your mind about that? You can just keep the iPad in that case, if you prefer."
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: Eden on December 06, 2012, 03:22:30 PM
Don't you think a lot of the etiquette issues in this are in the details of exactly how the conversation with the grandfather went?

For example, "We're not comfortable with DD having an ipad of her own. If you'd like to gift it to the family, that would be fine. Otherwise, thank you, but please choose a different gift." is polite, but straightforward. If, after hearing that, Grandpa still went ahead with the plan to give it to DD, then he's overstepping.
But, "That would be fine, but how about if it's a family gift?" sort of communicates that the OP is okay with the gift in general and what the OP viewed as a compromise or agreement, Grandpa viewed as a green light and gifting it to the family is merely a suggestion.

Whether or not he's far out of the bounds of etiquette seems to hinge on how clear the initial communication was. Either way, it sounds like the OP decided to let DD open the ipad so she's chosen her path which is very much within the bounds of etiquette.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: bah12 on December 06, 2012, 03:30:09 PM
I would only see the ipad as a red herring if the issue the OP presented was "we refused a gift for our DD and FIL wants to give it to her anyway, how do we politely tell him 'no thanks'?"

But she is specifically asking if her stance/concerns on the ipad are unreasonable...and while some of her concerns are based on the extravagance of the gift (even if used) and spoiling her child, others have simply to do with the fact that this ipad is better than hers and she'd rather it be a family gift where the real benefit would be to her and her DH (her words).  And honestly, I think it's fair to answer those questions and tell her that to some, it does seem a bit unreasonable.  All her concerns can be mitigated through parental controls.  But her real concern does seem to be that if her DD opens the gift, she'll consider it solely "hers" and therefore the OP does not have the ability to use it solely for herself.  She obviously has no issue with her DD using an ipad as she already allows her to play with one regularly.  She also has no issue with her FIL spending $100 on a LeapPad, where giving her his old ipad would cost him almost nothing.  So, I don't think the $ issue is valid (especially considering that most 3 year olds that I know, don't know the differenct in monetary value between an ipad and a LeapPad anyway).

To me, this thread is very much about the specific gift.  And like I said, I do think that the FIL should respect their wishes regardless of what they are when it comes to gifting thier child. But if I'm going to be asked about how reasonable I think they are being with the specific gift, I'm going to be honest about it and I do think that the OP is being slightly unreasonable about her daughter having "her own" ipad...or at least on why she doesn't want her to have her own.  (If the FIL's ipad belonged to the family, she said her DD would use her ipad solely...doesn't that make it "her ipad"?  If she has no issue with giving her DD her used ipad, then why is different for her FIL to give her his old ipad?)   
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: Take2 on December 06, 2012, 03:44:03 PM
I really think the OP's concerns, at least as I understand them, about the 3 year old "owning" the ipad can be addressed with setting rules as her parent.  A 3 year old is different from an adult in terms of ownership, and even different from a 6 year old or 10 year old.

I still disagree. My 12yo stepson has quite a few video games. He cannot play them when his grades are bad or before he finishes his homework...but my bio kids also cannot use them without asking or when he isn't here. He owns things outright, but there are rules for their use based on his safety and well-being. My 6yo DD owns a LeapPad, but can only take it in the car with special permission and can't use it after bedtime...but her baby brother and other kids can't borrow it without asking. The fundamental way that OP plans to use this ipad is NOT as DD's that she will agree to share, but rather exactly the way I use MY ipad, letting my kids borrow it at will within the confines of their screentime limitations and behavior. I think it would be unfair to tell a child this item belongs to her and then treat it like it belongs to the parents. My children both knew the distinction at 3, and even if this particular child doesn't get it yet, the goal should be to teach her and guide her to the next level of understanding. 
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: TurtleDove on December 06, 2012, 03:51:06 PM
I still disagree. My 12yo stepson has quite a few video games. He cannot play them when his grades are bad or before he finishes his homework...but my bio kids also cannot use them without asking or when he isn't here. He owns things outright, but there are rules for their use based on his safety and well-being. My 6yo DD owns a LeapPad, but can only take it in the car with special permission and can't use it after bedtime...but her baby brother and other kids can't borrow it without asking. The fundamental way that OP plans to use this ipad is NOT as DD's that she will agree to share, but rather exactly the way I use MY ipad, letting my kids borrow it at will within the confines of their screentime limitations and behavior. I think it would be unfair to tell a child this item belongs to her and then treat it like it belongs to the parents. My children both knew the distinction at 3, and even if this particular child doesn't get it yet, the goal should be to teach her and guide her to the next level of understanding.

I guess I am not following why the OP cannot simply explain the use of the ipad, as the OP wants it, to her DD.  I didn't see an answer to my question about whether the FIL forbade the OP or her DH from using the ipad because he wanted to give it to the DD.  That would be really really odd to me, as I am pretty sure I more fully articulated above (basically, because the DD could not possibly be able to use the ipad totally on her own).  Re the bolded, I don't understand why the DD cannot be taught that for this item, she gets to use it in the ways her parents tell her she can.  As several PPs mentioned, lots of kids "own" various objects but have different rules attached to these objects depending on lots of factors. 

Also, as a PP pointed out, the OP seems to be fine with the DD "owning" and exclusively using the inferior ipad. Just not the nicer one.  It's not about the OP not wanting her DD to have an ipad.  To answer the initial question in the OP, yes, I think that is unreasonable.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: Take2 on December 06, 2012, 04:42:33 PM
Yes, she can explain to the child that this ipad, while it technically belongs to the child, will be treated as though it belongs to the family. And certainly the 3yo will not be able to over-ride that decision, so it will work to do so. But the reason that wouldn't work in my house, at least, is that we don't make rules or decisions that contradict the grand scheme of right and wrong as we understand it. To have a possession presented to a child as hers and then take superior claim to it whenever I feel like it does not match my grand scheme of right and wrong. I COULD make all manner of rules that my kids would have to follow. Like all Reese's PB cups that enter the house immediately become Mommy's property. And I could enforce that rule and everyone would move on with their lives. But in my mind, rules enforced by me should model fairness and consistency and teach my child that her parents only make rules to protect her safety and well-being.

Look at it this way. Say I work for a company and that company has a car that the boss uses, and sometimes lends to me to use for work purposes. The company buys a new car, and the boss tells me that this nicer car is MY new company car. Except, she actually uses the car herself every day. I frequently go to get the car for a business errand and find that she has plans for it and I can't use it. She basically acts as though the car belongs to her. That would be rude. And yet, if she had stated at the beginning that both cars are company cars and she has first dibs on both as the boss and anyone else can use them as circumstances allow, there would be no problem. Certainly, she has the RIGHT to handle it however she chooses, but the first way isn't very nice.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: TurtleDove on December 06, 2012, 04:55:20 PM
My point is that the OP does not have to tell the DD it is "her exclusive" iPad just because the FIL wrapped it up for her to open. My DD likes to open presents - when she opens a gift for Mama she doesn't think it's hers and Mama has no say over it.

Also, the OP is fine with the DD "owning" the inferior iPad. I just cannot reconcile these things as reasonable.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: wolfie on December 06, 2012, 05:01:17 PM
I think the uncle needs to go with what the parents want and find someone else who would want his left over goods.

As I understand it, though, the parent wants the "leftover goods" for herself!  The problem isn't that she doesn't want her DD to use an ipad.  It's that she doesn't want her DD to use an ipad that is nicer than hers, and that to me is strange, especially becuase as the parent she gets to make the rules (at least in my house).  I would imagine the FIL is just as confused as I am about the motivation behind the OP's discomfort.  I still don't get it.
The OP has posted that she would prefer that the iPad doesn't get given to her family at all, not that she only wants the iPad for herself.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: NyaChan on December 06, 2012, 05:02:15 PM
If I'm not mistaken, she also said that she is not comfortable with her child owning an ipad at all.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: wolfie on December 06, 2012, 05:04:07 PM
My point is that the OP does not have to tell the DD it is "her exclusive" iPad just because the FIL wrapped it up for her to open. My DD likes to open presents - when she opens a gift for Mama she doesn't think it's hers and Mama has no say over it.

Also, the OP is fine with the DD "owning" the inferior iPad. I just cannot reconcile these things as reasonable.

There is a big difference between opening a gift when you know it is really for someone else and opening a gift that has been given to you with the explanation that it is yours and then having someone else swoop in and say no it's not.

Also the OP has stated she doesn't want her DD owning any iPad.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: JenJay on December 06, 2012, 05:05:52 PM
My point is that the OP does not have to tell the DD it is "her exclusive" iPad just because the FIL wrapped it up for her to open. My DD likes to open presents - when she opens a gift for Mama she doesn't think it's hers and Mama has no say over it.

Also, the OP is fine with the DD "owning" the inferior iPad. I just cannot reconcile these things as reasonable.

Actually she's said repeatedly that she's okay with DD playing with an iPad but not owning one. She's also said repeatedly that she doesn't care if DD plays with the new iPad. The only issue is whether or not OP and her DH should insist Grandpa make the distinction, when letting DD open the wrapped iPad, that it belongs to the family and not DD.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: Bexx27 on December 06, 2012, 05:08:08 PM
My point is that the OP does not have to tell the DD it is "her exclusive" iPad just because the FIL wrapped it up for her to open. My DD likes to open presents - when she opens a gift for Mama she doesn't think it's hers and Mama has no say over it.

Also, the OP is fine with the DD "owning" the inferior iPad. I just cannot reconcile these things as reasonable.

TD, at this point I can only assume you are intentionally mischaracterizing my position, as I've said many time throughout the thread that this is not the case. I don't want the newer ipad for myself and I don't want DD owning ANY ipad. Please either read my posts or stop responding.

FTR, I was not thinking that DD would never use the ipad2; she might have some apps that would work better on it. I was thinking that we would all share both ipads.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: Onyx_TKD on December 06, 2012, 05:15:13 PM
I still disagree. My 12yo stepson has quite a few video games. He cannot play them when his grades are bad or before he finishes his homework...but my bio kids also cannot use them without asking or when he isn't here. He owns things outright, but there are rules for their use based on his safety and well-being. My 6yo DD owns a LeapPad, but can only take it in the car with special permission and can't use it after bedtime...but her baby brother and other kids can't borrow it without asking. The fundamental way that OP plans to use this ipad is NOT as DD's that she will agree to share, but rather exactly the way I use MY ipad, letting my kids borrow it at will within the confines of their screentime limitations and behavior. I think it would be unfair to tell a child this item belongs to her and then treat it like it belongs to the parents. My children both knew the distinction at 3, and even if this particular child doesn't get it yet, the goal should be to teach her and guide her to the next level of understanding.

I guess I am not following why the OP cannot simply explain the use of the ipad, as the OP wants it, to her DD.  I didn't see an answer to my question about whether the FIL forbade the OP or her DH from using the ipad because he wanted to give it to the DD. That would be really really odd to me, as I am pretty sure I more fully articulated above (basically, because the DD could not possibly be able to use the ipad totally on her own).  Re the bolded, I don't understand why the DD cannot be taught that for this item, she gets to use it in the ways her parents tell her she can.  As several PPs mentioned, lots of kids "own" various objects but have different rules attached to these objects depending on lots of factors. 

Also, as a PP pointed out, the OP seems to be fine with the DD "owning" and exclusively using the inferior ipad. Just not the nicer one.  It's not about the OP not wanting her DD to have an ipad.  To answer the initial question in the OP, yes, I think that is unreasonable.

I don't think the issue has anything to do with the FIL dictating how the iPad is used. The issue is who owns the iPad, i.e., to whom the FIL gives it. I realize that you may not consider this distinction important, but others, including the OP, clearly do.

RE: children's ownership of items.
Imagine for a moment that the OP has two children, Child A and Child B, and FIL chose to give Child A a doll. It would be perfectly reasonable for her parents to set rules on use of the doll: when and where she may play with it, how she is expected to treat it (e.g. don't throw it across the room, it must be put away in this location after playtime), taking it away as a consequence for misbehavior, etc. It would also be reasonable for them to decide that this particular doll was not an appropriate toy for Child A and not allow her to keep or play with it at all.

However, would you consider it reasonable for the parents to decide that the doll given to Child A will instead belong to Child B? I would not. If FIL gave the gift to Child A, then the parents may refuse the gift on her behalf, but taking something that Child A owns (because it was presented and accepted as a gift to her) and simply decreeing that it will instead belong to Child B would IMO be wrong. This has nothing to do with FIL forbidding Child B from playing with the doll. It has to do with who owns it.

Also, if the doll belongs to Child A (because it was a gift to her), I would expect Child B to get Child A's permission to play with the doll. The parent's might set rules about the children being expected to share their toys, but I would expect those rules to work fairly in both directions (i.e., Child A would not be required to share her doll without also benefiting from Child B being required to share a desired toy with her). Personally, I see a subtle, but important distinction between "This is yours, but you are expected to share it appropriately" versus "This is 'yours,' but others can use it whenever they want without your consent." The former is an expectation of behavior for the owning child: the owner still has final say over how the item is used, but may face consequences based on how they handle this. The latter IMO negates the principle of ownership: the "owner" has no control over how their possession is handled/used. It also pretty much negates the concept of sharing: there's really nothing "nice" or virtuous about sharing one's possessions if you aren't allowed the choice to do otherwise.

RE: the child owning an iPad at all
That was not what I gathered from the OP's posts at all. My impression is that the OP was fine with her child owning a high-tech children's toy, the Leappad. She is also fine with her child using a grown-up toy, the iPad, with the permission of its owners (OP and husband). If the family owned two iPads, there would be less conflicts with two people wanting to use the same iPad, which could be a minor benefit for the child in terms of getting iPad time. However, I got the impression throughout the entire thread that the OP is not comfortable with the child owning either iPad (newer or older) outright, and neither would be designated for the exclusive use of the child. I also got the impression that the OP would much rather have her child receive the Leappad instead of the family receiving the 2nd iPad, but that she was trying to be flexible since the iPad would be easier and cheaper for the FIL.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: Bexx27 on December 06, 2012, 05:38:05 PM
Onyx_TKD explained it perefectly.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: Bexx27 on December 06, 2012, 05:48:25 PM
OP, I'm curious...how would you handle this kind of gift if it was given without your input?  In other words, if you had no idea what the present was and she opened it and it was an ipad, would you take it from her, limit it's use, share it with her, or something else?

I still say that your FIL asked for your input and he does need to respect your wishes (regardless of agreement on it), but as far as your concerns go with her having the ipad, does her getting it anyway change how you have her use it?  Would you still have her use it the way you'd prefer for her to use it (with a conversation/explanation to your child) or do you consider that once it's given to her, it's hers, and your stuck with her having/using something you'd prefer she didn't?

Well, it would be an unpleasant surprise. I would probably have no qualms in making it a family ipad because I hadn't been consulted on whether she could have it. The fact that he consulted us makes me feel obligated to establish an understanding with him of how it would be used if given.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: Lynn2000 on December 06, 2012, 07:24:14 PM
OP, I'm curious...how would you handle this kind of gift if it was given without your input?  In other words, if you had no idea what the present was and she opened it and it was an ipad, would you take it from her, limit it's use, share it with her, or something else?

I still say that your FIL asked for your input and he does need to respect your wishes (regardless of agreement on it), but as far as your concerns go with her having the ipad, does her getting it anyway change how you have her use it?  Would you still have her use it the way you'd prefer for her to use it (with a conversation/explanation to your child) or do you consider that once it's given to her, it's hers, and your stuck with her having/using something you'd prefer she didn't?

Well, it would be an unpleasant surprise. I would probably have no qualms in making it a family ipad because I hadn't been consulted on whether she could have it. The fact that he consulted us makes me feel obligated to establish an understanding with him of how it would be used if given.

And to me, this is an interesting point. FIL started out well, consulting the parents about the gift. But then, it seems to me, that he didn't really like the answer he got from them, so he decided to just do what he wanted anyway. Even though he'd told them he would do something different, that they'd agreed to. Again, I'm not suggesting he has some kind of Machiavellian scheme here; but maybe he just wasn't really listening to what the parents wanted, and didn't agree, and didn't think it would be a big deal to overrule them and go back on their mutual agreement.

So next time he mentions "DD's gift that she'll be so excited to unwrap!" maybe someone could gently remind him, "Oh, that wasn't the plan, remember?" And offer to let him keep the iPad instead (without suggesting a substitute gift), if he's changed his mind about the conditions of the gift.

To a broader point, I think there are circumstances when one can set conditions on a gift from someone else; and even if those conditions seem odd to other people, if the giver agrees to them, the giver should abide by them, or discuss further/ withdraw the gift offer entirely. Not just say they agree, then do whatever they want.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: bah12 on December 07, 2012, 09:50:24 AM
And again, this boils down to a parenting issue.  The etiquette issue is pretty cut and dry.  FIL consultant with the OP and her DH over a gift he wanted to give their DD.  They gave him guidance and now he wants to go against it.  That is wrong.

The parenting issue is more gray.  The OP specifically asked if her stance on having her DD not own her own ipad is reasonable or not.  And what makes it reasonable is that she's the parent and gets to decide what the rules are.  But, I parent differently.  If my DD owns something, it is hers.  I wouldn't take it away from her and tell her that it's mine, or that it's the whole families, but that doesn't mean that she gets to decide outright that she's the only one that can use something.  We always ask her permission, but she needs to have a good reason to say "no".  And those reasons pretty much boil down to her either using the item at the time someone else wants it, or the person that wants it not treating her things with respect.

And for me, that is a fair rule that I live by.  I let people borrow my stuff.  Our neighbors might want to borrow a certain tool, or my best friend my red blazer.  Of course, I'm not technically required to let anyone borrow anything that belongs to me, but my basic philosophy on life is that as long as the person is respecting my things, returning them when agreed, and in the same condition they got it in, if it's shareable, I have no problem sharing.  And that is the same philosophy I choose to teach my DD.
 
And I get that other parents view "sharing" differently than I do.  That the owner of the item, regardless of age, gets to decide the rules.  That's fair.  It's just not what we do in our family and it is from that viewpoint (as I've stated) that I'm addressing the OP's question of reasonableness.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: bah12 on December 07, 2012, 09:57:53 AM
I don't think the issue has anything to do with the FIL dictating how the iPad is used. The issue is who owns the iPad, i.e., to whom the FIL gives it. I realize that you may not consider this distinction important, but others, including the OP, clearly do.

RE: children's ownership of items.
Imagine for a moment that the OP has two children, Child A and Child B, and FIL chose to give Child A a doll. It would be perfectly reasonable for her parents to set rules on use of the doll: when and where she may play with it, how she is expected to treat it (e.g. don't throw it across the room, it must be put away in this location after playtime), taking it away as a consequence for misbehavior, etc. It would also be reasonable for them to decide that this particular doll was not an appropriate toy for Child A and not allow her to keep or play with it at all.

However, would you consider it reasonable for the parents to decide that the doll given to Child A will instead belong to Child B? I would not. If FIL gave the gift to Child A, then the parents may refuse the gift on her behalf, but taking something that Child A owns (because it was presented and accepted as a gift to her) and simply decreeing that it will instead belong to Child B would IMO be wrong. This has nothing to do with FIL forbidding Child B from playing with the doll. It has to do with who owns it.Also, if the doll belongs to Child A (because it was a gift to her), I would expect Child B to get Child A's permission to play with the doll. The parent's might set rules about the children being expected to share their toys, but I would expect those rules to work fairly in both directions (i.e., Child A would not be required to share her doll without also benefiting from Child B being required to share a desired toy with her). Personally, I see a subtle, but important distinction between "This is yours, but you are expected to share it appropriately" versus "This is 'yours,' but others can use it whenever they want without your consent." The former is an expectation of behavior for the owning child: the owner still has final say over how the item is used, but may face consequences based on how they handle this. The latter IMO negates the principle of ownership: the "owner" has no control over how their possession is handled/used. It also pretty much negates the concept of sharing: there's really nothing "nice" or virtuous about sharing one's possessions if you aren't allowed the choice to do otherwise.

RE: the child owning an iPad at all
That was not what I gathered from the OP's posts at all. My impression is that the OP was fine with her child owning a high-tech children's toy, the Leappad. She is also fine with her child using a grown-up toy, the iPad, with the permission of its owners (OP and husband). If the family owned two iPads, there would be less conflicts with two people wanting to use the same iPad, which could be a minor benefit for the child in terms of getting iPad time. However, I got the impression throughout the entire thread that the OP is not comfortable with the child owning either iPad (newer or older) outright, and neither would be designated for the exclusive use of the child. I also got the impression that the OP would much rather have her child receive the Leappad instead of the family receiving the 2nd iPad, but that she was trying to be flexible since the iPad would be easier and cheaper for the FIL.

I don't really see this as the parents taking away the ipad and making it "theirs".  I don't see why the OP has to do that in order to use this ipad herself from time to time.  She already lets her DD use the current ipad most of the time and she only does a few things on it.  Why is it so out there to let her DD use her new ipad and then ask to borrow it when she needs to do something on it?  It's still her DD's...the OP wouldn't suddenly own it.  But she would be using it.  No different than how her DD currently "uses" an ipad that she doesn't own.

But...the OP has also pointed out that ideally, her DD would get full use of current ipad and her and her DH would use the newer one.  And I think that's where some of us are getting stuck.  Because it's not about usage or ownership in that case, it's about who uses which specific ipad.  And if the OP really can't get past her DD having full use of an ipad that is better than the one that her and DH would use, that is a problem that can't be fixed by parental controls and sharing.  And in that case, she needs to insist that FIL not give the newer ipad to her DD at all.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: Sharnita on December 07, 2012, 10:01:44 AM
Actually, Op has repeatedly mentioned they would share both.  She even mentioned there would likely be asome apps DD had that would work better on the new ipad.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: TurtleDove on December 07, 2012, 10:15:38 AM
I don't really see this as the parents taking away the ipad and making it "theirs".  I don't see why the OP has to do that in order to use this ipad herself from time to time.  She already lets her DD use the current ipad most of the time and she only does a few things on it.  Why is it so out there to let her DD use her new ipad and then ask to borrow it when she needs to do something on it?  It's still her DD's...the OP wouldn't suddenly own it.  But she would be using it.  No different than how her DD currently "uses" an ipad that she doesn't own.

But...the OP has also pointed out that ideally, her DD would get full use of current ipad and her and her DH would use the newer one.  And I think that's where some of us are getting stuck.  Because it's not about usage or ownership in that case, it's about who uses which specific ipad.  And if the OP really can't get past her DD having full use of an ipad that is better than the one that her and DH would use, that is a problem that can't be fixed by parental controls and sharing.  And in that case, she needs to insist that FIL not give the newer ipad to her DD at all.

This.  I feel that some of the OP's statements contradict each other which is adding to my confusion.  I am not trying to misunderstand - I truly cannot figure out what is motivating the OP.  It also is not at all clear to me why the FIL cannot be told, "Sure, have DD open the ipad and we will use it as a family."  I don't see where the FIL is insisting that the ipad be for DD's exclusive use so I truly do not see the issue.  He just wants her to open it (and it seems the OP is now okay with that).
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: Sharnita on December 07, 2012, 10:50:26 AM
Honestly, the vast majority of people  "saw" OP mention sharing both devices. She never suggested to her FIL that he give the parents the new one and they give DD the other one. I am not sure why you two seem so entrenched on thiis but I jave to day - at this point it seems to be you and not OP. It is like you are refusing to believe her, even when other posters verify what she said.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: JenJay on December 07, 2012, 11:09:53 AM
Quote tree is wonky so I'll do this -

"I feel that some of the OP's statements contradict each other which is adding to my confusion.  I am not trying to misunderstand - I truly cannot figure out what is motivating the OP.  It also is not at all clear to me why the FIL cannot be told, "Sure, have DD open the ipad and we will use it as a family."  I don't see where the FIL is insisting that the ipad be for DD's exclusive use so I truly do not see the issue.  He just wants her to open it (and it seems the OP is now okay with that)."

Re the bolded - That's exactly what OP and her DH did in the beginning, and her FIL agreed. He then began speaking about the iPad as if it would only be for the little girl, saying things like "DD's iPad" and mentioning OP removing the DD's favorite apps from the current iPad and installing them on the gifted iPad instead (as opposed to in addition to), etc. So her original issue was whether or not she was overreacting to being annoyed that he initially agreed to make the iPad a family gift but has since indicated (through his words) that he now intends it to be for the DD instead, and, if eHellers would bring the issue up with the FIL again and reiterate that the iPad needs to be a family gift or drop it and let it be "DD's iPad".

Spin-off discussions about the pros and cons of a 3yo owning an iPad and whether or not parents have a right to use their children's items have evolved, but OP didn't start those topics (though she has weighed in).
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: bah12 on December 07, 2012, 11:38:30 AM
Honestly, the vast majority of people  "saw" OP mention sharing both devices. She never suggested to her FIL that he give the parents the new one and they give DD the other one. I am not sure why you two seem so entrenched on thiis but I jave to day - at this point it seems to be you and not OP. It is like you are refusing to believe her, even when other posters verify what she said.
I'm assuming I'm one of the "you two" you are reffering to, so let me clarify.  This is directly from the OP:

"I was thinking DD would mostly continue to use mine since her apps are already on it. Having another ipad would not change anything for DD since the only time I don't allow her to use mine is when I don't want her to have screen time; the only real benefit would be for me and DH, since we would have another ipad to use at the same time"

She then goes on to ask if this is a reasonable stance...both from the stand point of asking her FIL to gift it to the family and in why she doesn't want her DD to have her own (which she summarizes as "some truth" in not wanting her DD to have a better toy than her and from the standpoint of spoiling her child with such an expensive gift).

And I believe that I have stated over and over again that her FIL needs to respect her wishes.  Period.  But, I have also suggested that she evaluated if this is her hill...and if it is, fine.  But if she evaluates the real issue with her DD having "her own" ipad, it does appear to be something that can be solved with parenting controls.  She doesn't want to do that.  Fine.  She doesn't have to.  Not one of us can tell her how to parent her child.  And there is nothing wrong with her stance.  But, my advice to her stands:  If this is worth the fight, then go for it.  If not, then you can definitely reevaluate the rules surrounding "ownership" and "usage" and get all your concerns met and still let FIL see his granddaughter open an ipad on Christmas morning.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: Onyx_TKD on December 07, 2012, 11:44:17 AM
Turtledove, the quote trees in your last post have have gotten messed up. If you are still able to edit your post, would you please remove my name? Not only is that quote bah12's words, not mine, but it directly contradicts my views.

I don't really see this as the parents taking away the ipad and making it "theirs".  I don't see why the OP has to do that in order to use this ipad herself from time to time.  She already lets her DD use the current ipad most of the time and she only does a few things on it.  Why is it so out there to let her DD use her new ipad and then ask to borrow it when she needs to do something on it?  It's still her DD's...the OP wouldn't suddenly own it. But she would be using it.  No different than how her DD currently "uses" an ipad that she doesn't own.

But...the OP has also pointed out that ideally, her DD would get full use of current ipad and her and her DH would use the newer one.  And I think that's where some of us are getting stuck.  Because it's not about usage or ownership in that case, it's about who uses which specific ipad.  And if the OP really can't get past her DD having full use of an ipad that is better than the one that her and DH would use, that is a problem that can't be fixed by parental controls and sharing.  And in that case, she needs to insist that FIL not give the newer ipad to her DD at all.

The OP has stated repeatedly that she does not want her DD to own any iPad. She has also stated that if the family had two iPads, all members would use both iPads (she mentioned that most of her DD's current apps would probably remain on the old one out of convenience, not that her DD would not use the new one). Thus, from the OP's description of the issue, I think it is very much an issue of ownership and the specific rights and responsibilities thereof, not usage. If the OP is not comfortable with her daughter being the official owner of the iPad, and the OP is not comfortable with unilaterally deciding that FIL's gift belongs to the family even if it's given to DD specifically to be hers, then no amount of rules on how the DD is expected to share the iPad will fix the problem, because it's a question of ownership, not usage.

Personally, I think the OP and husband need to clearly establish with the FIL whether he or not he is planning to DD as hers, or if he plans to clearly make it a family gift, which DD will open. If the FIL insists on presenting it to the DD as "hers" and/or describing it as "her" iPad against her parents wishes, then IMO refusing the gift entirely is the only way to resolve the ethical issues of ownership that the OP has presented. In her family, 3YOs are not allowed to own items like iPads, and in her family, treating an item that belongs to a child as if it belongs to the family is not acceptable. Thus, iPads cannot be accepted as gifts to 3YOs. If FIL is clearly told that DD may not own an iPad herself, although she may use those belonging to the family, and he insists on trying to make it a gift to her specifically, then he'll just have to be disappointed.

Also, I do not think the OP has ever said that "ideally" the DD would have full use of the old iPad and the parents of the new iPad. On the contrary, I think the OP's "ideal" solution would be for the DD to receive the toy Leappad as originally proposed instead of anyone receiving an iPad. The idea of a second family iPad to be used by all was a compromise to begin with, since FIL wanted to give the iPad.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: O'Dell on December 07, 2012, 11:53:20 AM
Honestly I wouldn't even be that concerned over FIL calling it DD's iPad. He has an iPad and the OP has an iPad and this is the 3rd iPad in the group/family. How else should he refer to the iPad he is gifting? The OP's family's iPad? That's a mouthful.

My advice, find another name to call it, (George?), and start referring to it that way. Let FIL know it now has a name to avoid confusion amongst the iPads. It might provoke a conversation about iPads for toddlers and family use of the iPad, or he might just switch and go along.

The thing I keep coming back to is that you all had an agreement and except for the reference to DD's iPad and the unwrapping of it, there is no reason to believe that he's reneging on the agreement. I say just assume it's a family gift, use it as you see fit, and if it ever comes up remind him of the agreement and tell him you're sticking to that.

I think your case is strengthened to do that with your update that this is a hand-me-down iPad even if it is nicer than your iPad. This isn't some pristine straight-out-of-the-box gift. It's a used gift. That takes the shine or specialness off it in my opinion. It's partly a convenience for your FIL to gift it to your daughter....one that made you feel you couldn't say no to it and have him keep to the LeaPad.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: bah12 on December 07, 2012, 12:04:56 PM
Onyx...you are misunderstanding my standpoint.  I have never suggested that a gifted ipad to DD be the "family's".  On the contrary, I suggested that it be DD's, but that DD share the ipad with the OP from time to time.  Sharing something with the family does not change ownership.  And I believe I already stated many times that if the OP is not comfortable with that, then she should make it clear with FIL that the ipad not be given to DD.  But, I also went on to say that means that they not ask him to make it a family gift nor do they suggest he spend an additional $100 for the LeapPad.

And I'm speaking as the mother of a 3 year old girl, who is actually going through a very similar dillema right now on a potential gift for my daughter.

She is very interested in a certain musical instrument and has several toy versions of this instrument already.  We have a "real" one at home that we use from time to time and have let her play with it.  On black Friday, my DH ran accross a pretty nice instrument for a very good price and bought it.  He wants to give it to our DD for Christmas.  I have had some reservations in that this is not a toy.  I wasn't sure if DD has the maturity level to own this and take good care of it (she has since demonstrated that she does), and I'm not sure if giving her something "real" that may just be a passing fascination is wise.  I questioned my DH if we should just replace our older instrument with this one and let DD use it from time to time.   We have decided to follow the same advice that I'm giving the OP:  We will wrap it and give it to DD.  It will be hers. But, she will not be permitted to keep it in her room. It will stay in our family room where she can play with it under our supervision (she has friends that come play in her room that would not be so careful with it).  She will also be willing to share the instrument with me and DH if we ask, as well as allow other family members and children who can handle the instrument play with it. I'm looking forward to giving this to her, because I know how excited she will be to see it.  But just because it's "hers" doesn't mean that I can't address any of my concerns with her having it.  I can and I will.

That being said, again, the OP can do whatever she wants.  I'm not arguing with her that she can't (or shouldn't).  I am arguing with posters who insist that if the OP chooses to use the ipad, that she is essentially taking it away from her DD and it is no longer "hers".  I think that's silly.

Where I have disputed the OP, is where she fears that if this is gifted to her DD, her DD would be spoiled and have "expectations" of $500 gifts in the future.  Unless her DD is advanced in the concept of monetary value and can compare monetary value of different items (which is possible), I don't see this as a concern for a 3 year old.  An older child, definitely, but not one that doesn't know the difference between new/used and $500 or $100. 

I still say that it appears she can address her concerns with ownership of the ipad without insisting that her FIL not give it to her DD.  But, again, she doesn't have to.  Her and her DH need to then confront her FIL and not allow the gift.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: Bexx27 on December 07, 2012, 12:53:06 PM
I agree it comes down to definitions of ownership. bah12 makes some good points and I think where I differ is the idea of requiring DD to share something that is hers. I have a strong sense of personal boundaries and respect for autonomy which I extend to possessions. For example, some parents have no problem with going through their teenage children's belongings, reading their diaries, etc., at will. I don't think they're wrong, but my personal values mean I would never do that unless I had good reason to suspect her safety was at risk. I will obviously place restrictions and parameters on her internet and phone use, but as long as she sticks to the rules, she's entitled to her own life and relationships without input or monitoring on my part. It's an aspect of parenting people think about differently, and that's fine.

Similarly, if something belongs to me it's not OK for someone to use it without my permission. I tend to be generous with my things in the same way bah12 described, but it has to be my decision. I have the same respect for DD's property. I wouldn't snatch food from her plate without asking and I wouldn't play with her toys without asking. So I would feel comfortable telling her she's had enough screen time today and putting the ipad away, but not telling her she can't play with it because I want to use it. Theoretically, I would feel comfortable telling her she can't play with my ipad (or a "family-owned" ipad) because I want to use it, though in practice it doesn't come up. I know I have the authority to tell her she has to share something that's hers, but that goes against my sense of fairness and I want to impart my values to her by modeling them/applying them to her.*

FIL is fond of telling DD that something is "hers." For example, FIL and SMIL have a beach house. Whenever we go there FIL makes a big deal about how it's "DD's beach house," using that phrase repeatedly. The first time we went she was barely a year old, just starting to use words much less sentences, and he kept coaxing her to repeat the phrase herself. That doesn't bother me because it's obviously not her beach house and there are no practical consequences if she thinks it is. But it's probably that sort of behavior that makes me nervous about the emphasis he is placing on the ipad being hers.

I spoke to DH more last night and he does think FIL realizes DD won't have exclusive use of the ipad because he also mentioned DH using it for e-mail. I think it's more of a word choice thing -- FIL just enjoys indulgently referring to something as DD's -- but we have to ask him to lighten up on that when there are potential consequences for DD taking it literally.

*Off topic, but in case anyone is wondering, "you don't have to share things that belong specifically to you" does not apply the same way to play dates. Any toys she wants to play with when a friend is over must be shared with the friend. Anything she doesn't want to share is put away beforehand. But if she brings a bucket and shovel from home to the sandbox at the playground, she can say no if another kid tries to grab it, whether she's using it or not. This has actually led to other parents -- strangers -- getting huffy with me for not making her share. I never posted about it because I just assumed it would be a "snake in a restaurant" sort of thing, but maybe not...
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: Onyx_TKD on December 07, 2012, 12:56:57 PM
Onyx...you are misunderstanding my standpoint.  I have never suggested that a gifted ipad to DD be the "family's".  On the contrary, I suggested that it be DD's, but that DD share the ipad with the OP from time to time.  Sharing something with the family does not change ownership.  And I believe I already stated many times that if the OP is not comfortable with that, then she should make it clear with FIL that the ipad not be given to DD.  But, I also went on to say that means that they not ask him to make it a family gift nor do they suggest he spend an additional $100 for the LeapPad.

[snip]

I still say that it appears she can address her concerns with ownership of the ipad without insisting that her FIL not give it to her DD.  But, again, she doesn't have to.  Her and her DH need to then confront her FIL and not allow the gift.

Bah12, I understand that you were talking about the iPad being DD's and being shared with the family. However, the OP has (IMO) clearly stated that she is not comfortable with her daughter owning an iPad. I realize that many other posters, including you, do not see an issue with a 3YO owning an iPad, but the OP has repeatedly stated that she is not comfortable with that for her 3YO. Therefore, what I disagree with is the idea that any solution involving the FIL giving the iPad to the DD as her iPad will solve the OP's dilemma. What you suggest would be a viable solution for many families (including your own), but does not solve the OP's stated problem of not wanting her daughter to own an iPad. As I understand it, the ownership of the iPad is central to her concerns, so by definition it cannot be resolved by any solution that involves her DD accepting the iPad as a gift to DD specifically. Others clearly see the problem differently, but that is where my views are coming from.

ETA: Also, it seems like some posters (not you specifically) are advocating that the OP relax or compromise on the ownership issue on the grounds that it's not a big deal and/or that the 3YO does not really understand yet and/or that the OP's interpretation of ownership is overly strict, etc. The OP's views of ownership, sharing rules, and how to model these to a small child appear to mesh very closely with mine, so I personally don't see any reason to compromise on her stance that the iPad may not belong to DD. Again, YMMV. I think the distinction between suggestions on resolving the issue as it stands (question of etiquette) and suggestions about whether the OP should consider compromising on allowing her DD to own the iPad (question of parenting and the concept of children's ownership) is getting rather muddied in this thread, which is probably exacerbating the disagreements.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: mindicherry on December 07, 2012, 10:31:32 PM
I haven't read all 9 pages of comments (because I need to go to bed ;-) ), but from reading the OP, I have to say this:

Between the choice of a LeapPad and an iPad, the iPad would win 7 days a week and twice on Sundays.  From a practical standpoint - the games for a LeapPad cost $20-$35...iPad apps cost FREE-$5. it's not about spoiling her.  If she cares for it - she will be able to download apps for school (yes - they are even there for kindergarten) that will help her grow, mature and learn

Technology and education-wise - an iPad is something that is going to carry her FAR further than a LeapPad ever will.

She is 3-years old - even if FIL says it is for her.....after 2 weeks of you reinforcing that it is for the family - you should be fine. But honestly?  Even if you "only" have a 1st gen iPad and your FIL is giving the 2nd Gen to HER, you should just open a new iTunes account, transfer all of her apps in that cloud thingy to her new iPad and move on.

If your husband is upset about your daughter having "better toys" than he does, he really needs to get over it or buy himself better toys.  This is a gift. If you don't want the iPad 2 in your house, then say that.  if you don't want the iPad2 in your house because your 3 year old will have a better "toy" than you....then that is not a gifting or etiquette issue - it is a personal issue

And if you are worried about her breaking it (a valid issue)?  Buy an Otterbox case for it!  After i broke my iPhone 4S FOURTEEN DAYS after I bought it and had to pay $400 to replace it, I got a $30 case and that sucker now BOUNCES!  ;)

hey!  I am 43 and my 11 year old is asking me for a cell phone.  Every time I tell him that I didn't get a cell phone until I was 30, he looks at me like I used to ride a dinosaur to school. But iPads and kids just go together like peas & carrots.  She doesn't have to be glued to it, but tech-wise (and looking forward), it is a WAY better choice than a LeapPad!

** edited because I know the difference between "then" and "than"
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: mindicherry on December 07, 2012, 10:52:46 PM
Earlier I posted its probably a bunch of little objections.  I'm wondering if another one of those little things is the OP is comfortable restricting her daughter's usage of a toy, but is not comfortable commandeering a "toy" (word used lightly) given to her daughter and re-purposing it as a family gift.  So while yes the OP is still the parent and can control her daughter's usage, she might not be comfortable saying "oh DD doesn't understand the idea of a group gift and we let her open it and her grandpa said it was hers, but really her dad & I are going to use it as a family device."

I know for me, I think the idea of it being a family device is reasonable if its given as oneBut I don't think its ethical for a parent to take a gift given to a child solely and then deem it belongs to the whole family.  If it wasn't given to the whole family it does not belong to the whole family, regardless of who's in charge.
This - exactly this (ok - maybe i am not going to bed)

To me, this is no different than saying "Thanks for the $50 you sent for your grandchild to buy a Christmas gift....we used it to pay the electric bill!" (which may seem in opposition to my previous reply but it isn't, because we are talking about cash vs. hand-me-down gifts"
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: bah12 on December 10, 2012, 10:20:22 AM
I agree it comes down to definitions of ownership. bah12 makes some good points and I think where I differ is the idea of requiring DD to share something that is hers. I have a strong sense of personal boundaries and respect for autonomy which I extend to possessions. For example, some parents have no problem with going through their teenage children's belongings, reading their diaries, etc., at will. I don't think they're wrong, but my personal values mean I would never do that unless I had good reason to suspect her safety was at risk. I will obviously place restrictions and parameters on her internet and phone use, but as long as she sticks to the rules, she's entitled to her own life and relationships without input or monitoring on my part. It's an aspect of parenting people think about differently, and that's fine.

Similarly, if something belongs to me it's not OK for someone to use it without my permission. I tend to be generous with my things in the same way bah12 described, but it has to be my decision. I have the same respect for DD's property. I wouldn't snatch food from her plate without asking and I wouldn't play with her toys without asking. So I would feel comfortable telling her she's had enough screen time today and putting the ipad away, but not telling her she can't play with it because I want to use it. Theoretically, I would feel comfortable telling her she can't play with my ipad (or a "family-owned" ipad) because I want to use it, though in practice it doesn't come up. I know I have the authority to tell her she has to share something that's hers, but that goes against my sense of fairness and I want to impart my values to her by modeling them/applying them to her.*

FIL is fond of telling DD that something is "hers." For example, FIL and SMIL have a beach house. Whenever we go there FIL makes a big deal about how it's "DD's beach house," using that phrase repeatedly. The first time we went she was barely a year old, just starting to use words much less sentences, and he kept coaxing her to repeat the phrase herself. That doesn't bother me because it's obviously not her beach house and there are no practical consequences if she thinks it is. But it's probably that sort of behavior that makes me nervous about the emphasis he is placing on the ipad being hers.

I spoke to DH more last night and he does think FIL realizes DD won't have exclusive use of the ipad because he also mentioned DH using it for e-mail. I think it's more of a word choice thing -- FIL just enjoys indulgently referring to something as DD's -- but we have to ask him to lighten up on that when there are potential consequences for DD taking it literally.

*Off topic, but in case anyone is wondering, "you don't have to share things that belong specifically to you" does not apply the same way to play dates. Any toys she wants to play with when a friend is over must be shared with the friend. Anything she doesn't want to share is put away beforehand. But if she brings a bucket and shovel from home to the sandbox at the playground, she can say no if another kid tries to grab it, whether she's using it or not. This has actually led to other parents -- strangers -- getting huffy with me for not making her share. I never posted about it because I just assumed it would be a "snake in a restaurant" sort of thing, but maybe not...

I think having a different definition of "ownership" is just fine.  If you don't normally require your DD to share her things (outside of play dates), then asking her to share "her ipad" with you from time to time obviously won't work.  I do want to point out that just because I ask my DD to be open with sharing her things, I don't make her stop playing with toys to share them, nor does that mean that I will violate her privacy by going through her phone and diary when she's older and has those things. And for that matter, "sharing" does not mean that anyone can take her things whenever she wants.  She just needs to have a good reason to say 'no' when someone asks and "I'm using it right now", "you can't be trusted to take care of it or give it back", "I don't know you" or "It's private" are all valid reasons. (I understand you weren't assuming these things were true for me, but I wanted to be clear).

I will say that you still have two courses of action.  1. Fight the fight with FIL and instist that he not give the ipad to your DD (don't ask him to make it a family gift) or 2. let her have it and ask her if you can use it when she's not (if asking her to stop playing with your ipad so that you can use it has never come up before, there's very little chance, even if some, that this is something you're going to run into very often with the new one...unless, of course, the new one is so nice that you change your usage habits simply because you enjoy it more).  I personally, would go with 2, but again you don't have to.

It also sounds like the real issue here is a bit broader than the ipad.  If your FIL is defining things as DD's that are clearly not DD's, then that could be a problem.  And I would address this with him.  If your personal boundaries with material things is very strong, then you need to be consistent with all things.  The vacation house is not DD's and the same rules wouldn't apply to use of the house as it would to her true belongings.  If you're going to teach her that she has full autonomy to decide what goes with all things that are hers, then she needs to clearly understand what is not hers, and this is where your FIL's method of defining everything as hers can be damaging.

I've been saying this for a while and I'll go ahead and say this again.  The real discussion here is simply a parenting issue.  And there's no wrong or right way to go about it.  The etiquette is pretty cut and dry. You asked your FIL not to gift DD the ipad.  He needs to respect that.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: Bexx27 on December 10, 2012, 10:36:14 AM
DH talked to FIL last night. Before DH introduced the topic, FIL excitedly told him that he had set the ipad to open to a picture of DD and a banner saying "DD's ipad."  ::) DH said he was concerned that presenting it that way would make DD possessive of the ipad and unwilling to let us use it. He asked FIL to make it clear that it was a gift for DD to share with us. He agreed, but seemed sad about it. Then I felt bad for making him sad when he just wants to see his granddaughter's eyes light up.  :( Ultimately, I guess we'll try to make everyone happy by telling DD it's mostly for her but mom and dad can use it when she's not. I'm sure I've just been overthinking this and we probably won't end up having any issues.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: CaptainObvious on December 10, 2012, 10:52:55 AM
Earlier I posted its probably a bunch of little objections.  I'm wondering if another one of those little things is the OP is comfortable restricting her daughter's usage of a toy, but is not comfortable commandeering a "toy" (word used lightly) given to her daughter and re-purposing it as a family gift.  So while yes the OP is still the parent and can control her daughter's usage, she might not be comfortable saying "oh DD doesn't understand the idea of a group gift and we let her open it and her grandpa said it was hers, but really her dad & I are going to use it as a family device."

I know for me, I think the idea of it being a family device is reasonable if its given as oneBut I don't think its ethical for a parent to take a gift given to a child solely and then deem it belongs to the whole family.  If it wasn't given to the whole family it does not belong to the whole family, regardless of who's in charge.
This - exactly this (ok - maybe i am not going to bed)

To me, this is no different than saying "Thanks for the $50 you sent for your grandchild to buy a Christmas gift....we used it to pay the electric bill!" (which may seem in opposition to my previous reply but it isn't, because we are talking about cash vs. hand-me-down gifts"

I see where you mentioned that you didn't read the entire 9 pages of thread. Those pages were important because the OP made it clear from the beginning that the gift would be joint, or not be given at all. She doesn't want her daughter to have an iPad, and making it a family gift was a compromise. She has zero intentions of accepting a gift for her daughter and then taking it for herself.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: wolfie on December 10, 2012, 11:00:34 AM
DH talked to FIL last night. Before DH introduced the topic, FIL excitedly told him that he had set the ipad to open to a picture of DD and a banner saying "DD's ipad."  ::) DH said he was concerned that presenting it that way would make DD possessive of the ipad and unwilling to let us use it. He asked FIL to make it clear that it was a gift for DD to share with us. He agreed, but seemed sad about it. Then I felt bad for making him sad when he just wants to see his granddaughter's eyes light up.  :( Ultimately, I guess we'll try to make everyone happy by telling DD it's mostly for her but mom and dad can use it when she's not. I'm sure I've just been overthinking this and we probably won't end up having any issues.

I can see why you are thinking of backing down  - especially when your FIL has such good intentions. But I would ask you to rethink that. "Start as you mean to go on" and all that jazz. Eventually you will need to put your foot down and disappoint him. Wouldn't it be easier to do it now and set the tone for the rest of the relationship rather then 5 years from now when a precedent has been set and he is more likely to resist?
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: Sharnita on December 10, 2012, 11:02:52 AM
I agree with wolfie.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: StuffedGrapeLeaves on December 10, 2012, 11:32:26 AM
I agree with wolfie, too.  Having good intentions does not mean your FIL gets to override your parenting decisions. 
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: Bexx27 on December 10, 2012, 11:53:53 AM
Well, I wasn't really thinking of it as backing down because she'll still be told it's a shared ipad.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: VorFemme on December 10, 2012, 12:58:43 PM
Does FIL still refer to the beach house as DD's?

Because his choice of words is going to cause confusion, sooner or later.  He needs to be reminded that he might want to thrill his grandchild - but it could confuse her and lead to tears later on.  Being clear might not be as much fun - but will not set up problems with his grandchild (or the in laws) later on!
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: Hmmmmm on December 10, 2012, 01:26:34 PM
DH talked to FIL last night. Before DH introduced the topic, FIL excitedly told him that he had set the ipad to open to a picture of DD and a banner saying "DD's ipad."  ::) DH said he was concerned that presenting it that way would make DD possessive of the ipad and unwilling to let us use it. He asked FIL to make it clear that it was a gift for DD to share with us. He agreed, but seemed sad about it. Then I felt bad for making him sad when he just wants to see his granddaughter's eyes light up.  :( Ultimately, I guess we'll try to make everyone happy by telling DD it's mostly for her but mom and dad can use it when she's not. I'm sure I've just been overthinking this and we probably won't end up having any issues.

I think this is a good plan.  I understand and really respect your boundary issues about possessions.  But remember that there are things in your home that do not belong to just one person.  TV's, fridges, cars, furniture.... One family may actually acquired it, or even receive it as a gift, but it is shared with the family as communal bounty. 

I think it is important that kids get the opportunity to contribute to the family and enjoy that since of pride in sharing.  My son around age 3 received a wagon one year for Christmas from his GP's.  This wagon has the best off road wheels ever!  You could maneauver that thing anywhere.  DS got a big kick out of us asking to borrow his wagon when he was little. We'd decide to go to the neighborhood pool and he'd say "I'll go get my wagon to put the the stuff in."   At about age 12, I remember asking him to bring "his" wagon around to the backyard for me and he laughed and said that hadn't been "his" wagon for years. 

One day you'll say "Gosh I wish I had my iPad with me" and your DD will say with great satisfcation "Here mommy, use mine."

And I don't know what it is about some GP's wanting to refer to their things as the grandkids.  My ILs did this.  By age two, my DD "owned" their birds they'd had for 10 years, their backyard pool that had been there for decades, and a good bit of their other possessions including her gandfather's golf cart.  When our son came along when she was 3 they had to start doing a lot of backtracking.  So the next time FIL tells DD that the beachouse is hers ask him if he plans to buy your next child one too. ;)
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: mindicherry on December 12, 2012, 05:50:39 PM
Earlier I posted its probably a bunch of little objections.  I'm wondering if another one of those little things is the OP is comfortable restricting her daughter's usage of a toy, but is not comfortable commandeering a "toy" (word used lightly) given to her daughter and re-purposing it as a family gift.  So while yes the OP is still the parent and can control her daughter's usage, she might not be comfortable saying "oh DD doesn't understand the idea of a group gift and we let her open it and her grandpa said it was hers, but really her dad & I are going to use it as a family device."

I know for me, I think the idea of it being a family device is reasonable if its given as oneBut I don't think its ethical for a parent to take a gift given to a child solely and then deem it belongs to the whole family.  If it wasn't given to the whole family it does not belong to the whole family, regardless of who's in charge.
This - exactly this (ok - maybe i am not going to bed)

To me, this is no different than saying "Thanks for the $50 you sent for your grandchild to buy a Christmas gift....we used it to pay the electric bill!" (which may seem in opposition to my previous reply but it isn't, because we are talking about cash vs. hand-me-down gifts"

I see where you mentioned that you didn't read the entire 9 pages of thread. Those pages were important because the OP made it clear from the beginning that the gift would be joint, or not be given at all. She doesn't want her daughter to have an iPad, and making it a family gift was a compromise. She has zero intentions of accepting a gift for her daughter and then taking it for herself.
I actually did see the part about her not wanting her daughter to be the sole owner of the iPad and deliberately didn't comment on that because I see no reason for her not to want it to be hers and it makes no sense to me, but that is a parenting decision and I will not question the "ownership" part.

I read through the rest of the OP's comments (now that I have more time and I am less sleep-deprived) and up until her reply #119, I honestly thought that she was trying to justify her discomfort with her DD having a better "toy" than her....until I read this:

Quote
FIL is fond of telling DD that something is "hers." For example, FIL and SMIL have a beach house. Whenever we go there FIL makes a big deal about how it's "DD's beach house," using that phrase repeatedly. The first time we went she was barely a year old, just starting to use words much less sentences, and he kept coaxing her to repeat the phrase herself. That doesn't bother me because it's obviously not her beach house and there are no practical consequences if she thinks it is. But it's probably that sort of behavior that makes me nervous about the emphasis he is placing on the ipad being hers.

I "have" a Beach House the same way the OP's DD "has" one.  Actually, my father owns it, pays for everything, etc...but I have keys, and come and go as I please (along with my 3 other sisters - although we always try to coordinate our trips if for no other reason than it is only 4 bedrooms and if we all showed up the same weekend, 1 family would be riding the sofa bed ;) ), but my father still refers it to "our house", even though he didn't buy it until I was almost 30. 

I am going to make a (possibly wrong) assumption and say that FIL is better-off financially than the OP. By having the $ to "give" her an iPad (even a 2nd-hand one, because many people I know are able to re-sell their iPads for almost as much as they paid for it) or a beach house and wanting to seem like the "awesome grandpa who gives the most amazing gifts and can afford to give those gifts", it puts the OP in the uncomfortable position of being see as giving "less awesome gifts". 

IOW - if this behavior by FIL continues, by the time the OPs DD is 16, Grandpa will be wanting to give her a shiny new (or slightly used) car for her 16th birthday while the OP will be giving a much more modest (whether by choice or financial situation) gift.  No parent wants to be upstaged by others (as in "Thanks for the gift mom - now when can we go to Grandpa's so I can see what HE got me?").  I COMPLETELY get that and from the beach house comments....I see it going exactly there. Even if it is a matter of not wanting to be "upstaged", I can see a few years from now the OPs DD asking the OP for a specific gift, the OP saying that it is out of their budget and DD saying "that's ok - I'll just ask Grandpa!".  That would make me NUTS!

So that is probably going to be an ongoing issue with FIL and I think that this iPad is the perfect opportunity to make it clear to FIL that DD can't and won't be spoiled the way he seemingly wants to spoil her (out of curiosity - is DD the only grandchild?).  Here is what I would do:



I'm assuming that your FIL isn't a complete jerk and is just trying to be The Wonderful Grandfather.  If this is the case, a few gift-giving holidays where the above happens should make it clear to him that, while you appreciate his generous gifts, you don't want to raise a spoiled and entitled daughter that would have others complaining about her on eHell  ;)

ETA:  and seriously - get an Otterbox for it! ;)
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: TurtleDove on December 12, 2012, 10:40:13 PM
Well explained, mindicherry. 
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with FIL's gift to my child
Post by: Bexx27 on December 13, 2012, 09:54:04 AM
Yes, FIL and SMIL are better of than we are financially and DD is their only grandchild at the moment. I'm not worried about being "upstaged" per se, but I'm absolutely worried about this:

...I can see a few years from now the OPs DD asking the OP for a specific gift, the OP saying that it is out of their budget and DD saying "that's ok - I'll just ask Grandpa!"... 

and ultimately this:

you don't want to raise a spoiled and entitled daughter that would have others complaining about her on eHell  ;)