Etiquette Hell

General Etiquette => Life...in general => Topic started by: pickles50 on December 30, 2012, 06:05:19 PM

Title: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: pickles50 on December 30, 2012, 06:05:19 PM
I recently met a friend for a quick pre-Christmas vacation in Paris. I love photography and pride myself on taking pretty nice pictures. Because I vowed to not buy souvenirs at the places I visit I have compromised with myself and bought some pricey camera equipment and just enjoy having the beautiful pictures as memories of my travels. Ok, that being said, I lugged around heavy and expensive camera equipment all over Paris and got some really amazing pictures that I can't wait to blow up and frame. My travel buddy just brought his iPhone to take pictures. So the night before our departure my travel buddy hands me his ipad and says to me to "go ahead and upload all your pictures to my ipad". I'm a bit miffed by this as they are my pictures. So I take his ipad and upload the pictures of him (and only him) and hand it back. He whines that he was "all 650 of my pictures" which I politely decline and then bean dip, this scenario gets repeated several times over the course of the night (him asking, me bean dipping). Don't get me wrong...my pictures aren't National Geographic quality but they are mine. So hind sight 20/20 was I rude and petty? Should I have just uploaded my pictures and not made a big deal of it? I feel bad now I think I should just make him a photo-book so he has the pictures but not the digital copies. Feedback is appreciated. Thank you.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: MOM21SON on December 30, 2012, 06:12:51 PM
Which do you cherish more?  The holiday with your friend or the photos?
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: 25wishes on December 30, 2012, 06:14:54 PM
He took the pictures he wanted with his Iphone - you took the pictures you wanted with your camera. Unless you had some agreement that you were taking pics for both of you, he should offer you some compensation (not necessarily monetary) for your work and the expense of your equipment.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: Venus193 on December 30, 2012, 06:19:00 PM
No, you were not rude.  You have the right to refuse such a request.  How would you know that he wouldn't share those photos claiming they were his?

The ease of photography and sharing pictures has opened up so many issues that it makes me wish yet again that someone had thought about the etiquette of this while the equipment was being developed.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: Deetee on December 30, 2012, 06:24:18 PM
I would find it a bit odd to not share all the photos(assumming nothing personal was on them). I don't see what is gained by not sharing them and personally I don't find pictures of myself that interesting.

 I will take less photos if travelling with someone taking photos and just figure  we will share.

Would you be OK with sharing if you watermarked with your name first? Some of my more serious photography friends do that as a matter of course.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: JenJay on December 30, 2012, 06:35:27 PM
I don't think you're rude or petty! It sounds like you're pretty serious about photography so I can appreciate why you wouldn't want to hand out your photos for free. Actually, even if you weren't serious about it I wouldn't think you were rude or petty  :P.

My Dad is a hobby photographer and he uploaded a bunch of photos onto my computer after their last visit. Some of his shots were great (we went to DC, several plantations, etc. He had some great stuff!) and I teased him that if he didn't upload them to facebook I would because they needed to be shown off. He actually told me to go ahead (he's on FB about once every 6 months) but I still didn't. The ones I did upload, of my kids or family shots, I made sure to credit to him.

The photo book sounds like a nice compromise if you want to do that. He'll have some great photos of your trip and you'd retain the originals (and the sole rights to use them!).
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: TurtleDove on December 30, 2012, 06:45:02 PM
I have a difficult time understanding your motivation.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: PastryGoddess on December 30, 2012, 06:49:10 PM
I'm also an amateur photographer and while I don't mind sharing my photos, I do expect to be asked rather than told what to do with them. It doesn't matter if you are traveling with someone.  Those pictures are the property of the person who took them, not the group/couple as a whole.  *I also think it's interesting that friend didn't offer to share his photos but certainly expected OP to share hers (of presumably better quality).


If your friend wants a picture album he can pay for one himself.  I use Photobucket which is nice because you can turn off sharing of the pictures.  So people can't download the full size picture or right click to download either

*This is my assumption of the situation*
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: peaches on December 30, 2012, 06:51:31 PM
Demanding photos that someone else has taken is presumptuous IMO. I can't imagine doing that.

Unless OP was the designated photographer for the trip, and it was agreed ahead of time that photos would be shared, OP is under no obligation to share them.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: gollymolly2 on December 30, 2012, 06:54:59 PM
I have a difficult time understanding your motivation.

I agree, unless you plan to sell them or think he might do so.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: Firecat on December 30, 2012, 06:58:11 PM
I have a difficult time understanding your motivation.

I don't. The OP spent considerable time, effort, and cash to get good shots. The friend could have done the same, or discussed sharing the OP's pics up front. Instead, the friend just assumed that it was ok to "piggyback" on the OP's work, which shows any or all of the following: a certain laziness on the friend's part, a lack of respect for the OP's work, and perhaps a lack of appreciation for the time and skill involved in good photography. I'd be a lot less hard on the friend if the friend had asked the OP up front if it was ok to share pictures, and offered some type of compensation or incentive to the OP. Or just asked for copies of the pictures that included him or maybe one or two particular locations or events. So I don't thinke the OP was at all wrong for being upset.

Edited to add that I think this would have been the perfect time for: "I'm afraid that won't be possible" with the optional addition of "I'm happy to share pictures of X and/or Y."
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: Joeschmo on December 30, 2012, 06:59:22 PM
I can't tell for sure from your op but did you ever directly tell him no?
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: Surianne on December 30, 2012, 06:59:55 PM
Hmm, on trips where I've travelled with a friend I've always assumed we would share each other's photos.  However, I'm also usually the "lesser" photographer -- my camera isn't expensive, and I will forget to take photos of something exciting if I'm too busy watching it instead.

So I guess I've never thought of it from the standpoint of the photographer who doesn't want to share with the person who isn't as good at photography.  Normally if I travel with someone, I'm the person who is good at reading maps, good at doing math in my head to convert currency, etc.  So I see that as my "contribution" and assume that the vacation turns out vaguely equal.  OP, did your friend contribute anything that was helpful to you, at all, during the trip?

I'm also a writer, and if I write anything about my trips I would be happy to share it even if my friend didn't.  I wouldn't automatically assume that she would steal my writing and credit it as hers.  That seems like such an unfriendly thing to do.

I'm not really understanding the motivation either but now I wonder if I've pissed off my photographer friends in the past.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: Deetee on December 30, 2012, 07:03:44 PM
I have a difficult time understanding your motivation.

I don't. The OP spent considerable time, effort, and cash to get good shots. The friend could have done the same, or discussed sharing the OP's pics up front. Instead, the friend just assumed that it was ok to "piggyback" on the OP's work, which shows any or all of the following: a certain laziness on the friend's part, a lack of respect for the OP's work, and perhaps a lack of appreciation for the time and skill involved in good photography. I'd be a lot less hard on the friend if the friend had asked the OP up front if it was ok to share pictures, and offered some type of compensation or incentive to the OP. Or just asked for copies of the pictures that included him or maybe one or two particular locations or events. So I don't thinke the OP was at all wrong for being upset.

For me, the whole point of taking pictures is to share the memories with people  so the more people want to see my photos the better. Most people I know operate that way (though, as I mentioned some people do add watermarks to their photos so it is clear whose they are). I see no reason to ascribe unpleasant motives to someone for wanting copies of photos.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: JacklynHyde on December 30, 2012, 07:06:01 PM
Asking politely in advance with the understanding that the answer may be "no" is one thing.  This traveling companion expected it to be a done deal that he WOULD take possession of the photos.  Not proper.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: pickles50 on December 30, 2012, 07:08:01 PM
OP here...

No, he did not offer to trade pictures.

I would have even been open to the idea if he asked in advance he could have copies of my photos or at least offer to lug around the cumbersome camera equipment.

My motivation: in the past I have freely given out pictures only to find them later posted on another person's facebook or other social networking passed off as their photos they took.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: Firecat on December 30, 2012, 07:10:26 PM
I have a difficult time understanding your motivation.

I don't. The OP spent considerable time, effort, and cash to get good shots. The friend could have done the same, or discussed sharing the OP's pics up front. Instead, the friend just assumed that it was ok to "piggyback" on the OP's work, which shows any or all of the following: a certain laziness on the friend's part, a lack of respect for the OP's work, and perhaps a lack of appreciation for the time and skill involved in good photography. I'd be a lot less hard on the friend if the friend had asked the OP up front if it was ok to share pictures, and offered some type of compensation or incentive to the OP. Or just asked for copies of the pictures that included him or maybe one or two particular locations or events. So I don't thinke the OP was at all wrong for being upset.

For me, the whole point of taking pictures is to share the memories with people  so the more people want to see my photos the better. Most people I know operate that way (though, as I mentioned some people do add watermarks to their photos so it is clear whose they are). I see no reason to ascribe unpleasant motives to someone for wanting copies of photos.

See the photos is one thing...take copies of the photos, which the friend just assumed would be ok, is something else. I think it's entirely possible that it's simply a case of clashing expectations (the friend assumed it was no big deal, the OP feels differently, and they're both entitled to how they feel). But I still think that if the friend wanted to share pictures, it would be more polite to have that discussion up front, because people do have different feelings and expectations around this issue.

I lean toward the OP's perspective, maybe partly because my DH used to be fairly serious about photography, and it really bugs me when people are like "they're just pictures, what's the big deal" which is pretty much what the friend did. Regardless of the friend's precise motivation, the friend's actions were pretty darn lazy in watching the OP lug all the equipment around, line up good angles, probably take several shots with different settings to ensure good lighting and so on - and just expect to take advantage of the OP's time, effort, and money - because I can tell you that good equipment, most especially good digital equipment, is not a trivial expense. It was, as another poster so succintly said, presumptuous of the friend, and, I maintain, a bit disrespectful.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: Cami on December 30, 2012, 07:23:45 PM
Let's say the friend speaks French because he spent the time, considerable effort and money to learn French. You did not.  Your choice. You could have learned French at some point in your life, but you chose not to do so. You were expecting that when you two went to Paris, that he would translate for you. But then the two of you get to Paris and he refuses to translate for you.

How would you feel about your friend and the friendship?
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: Deetee on December 30, 2012, 07:25:34 PM
I should clarify that the OP has the perfect right to say no. If I asked and was turned down, I wouldn't get snippy or anything. It just wouldn't occur to me that someone would spend all that effort to take photos and then not want to share them.

OP, you mentioned your pictures had been passed off as other peoples. A watermark (cool signature you put on your photos) would take care of that. I actually like it when my friends watermark things so I can post them and show off their skill without having to mention it in every comment.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: Firecat on December 30, 2012, 07:32:16 PM
Let's say the friend speaks French because he spent the time, considerable effort and money to learn French. You did not.  Your choice. You could have learned French at some point in your life, but you chose not to do so. You were expecting that when you two went to Paris, that he would translate for you. But then the two of you get to Paris and he refuses to translate for you.

How would you feel about your friend and the friendship?

I don't think that refusing to translate for someone in a foreign country when you speak the language and they do not is remotely the same as declining to share pictures. Being able to communicate is, in some situations, absolutely essential; pictures are absolutely not essential. I do think that the person who doesn't know French should be respectful of the person who does, and try to give them a break sometimes; just as I think that the friend in the OP should have been respectful of the OP's time and effort.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: buvezdevin on December 30, 2012, 07:34:51 PM
I would be bothered, generally, by an "expectation" being stated, rather than a request to share.

Aside from that, it isn't only that OP has the expense of good equipment, and the logistics and effort of traveling with it and putting effort into her photos - they are personal mementos of significance to OP.  OP shared photos which featured her friend, and beyond that - I would imagine many/most of the views OP photographed are pretty readily available on line if her friend wants just the image.  If what the friend wants is a photo diary of the trip, or just copies of some awesome shots OP took - because he would enjoy them - then asking politely would have been much better than approaching it as an entitlement on his part.

To Surianne's point about writing as a comparable example, I once had a friend ask me to write up a story and recommendation about her husband's cooking which she wanted to submit to a newspaper for a profile.  I did, and I was chagrined to see the eventual article in which she took what I had written and submitted it as her own.  It was not a big effort for me, and it cost me nothing to have her present my writing as her own - other than some respect for her and a vow to myself to not respond to any remotely similar requests from her.

When anyone makes an investment or effort to create something, it is worth recognizing that the result is likely valued by that person, even if not monetarily.  Asking someone to share something they value is then best done in a way which at least suggests the requester also values what is being requested, *and* the creative effort of the originator.

"Download all your photos" does not show value held, or appreciation.

It's fine if there is an agreement in advance, and I usually have no issue with sharing my own photos, but I think I would have reacted, responded and felt much as did OP in this situation.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: Alpacas on December 30, 2012, 07:38:44 PM
As an artist and a design student i understand the OPs motivation not to share.
Of course you want others to see your pictures, but you also want to keep controll over who sees them when. Sharing them with someone always brings the risk of loosing that control.

Firecat also explained very well how people tend to disregard the work that goes into photographs (or in my case drawings)
There have been numerous times when i heard how "simple" and "easy" my work must be because i just need to "take a picture" or draw some lines on paper.
Only this christmas i told my mother that the painting she was looking at was done with Photoshop, only to hear a disregarding "Oh..well if its like that... Thats not real art then."

I think because of that view towards pictures, and photographs people tend to simply disregard how important they might be for the artist.

Only yesterday a friend showed me a picture that might have a different background but also shows the artists POV ( i hope i'm allowed to share this link here)
http://media.tumblr.com/a5cb2c1aed7ca9fa5b06189e99f2835c/tumblr_inline_mfr5u6Ugoa1r1pwb5.png

To get to the etiquett question here.
I think the friend was rude to "demand" the photographs  instead of asking for them. And he was rude to repeat the question when he didn't get the answer he wanted.
The OP was not rude to decline sharing her work.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: gramma dishes on December 30, 2012, 07:43:16 PM
I get why the OP feels the way she does.

Very decent respectable cameras are readily available at relatively small cost.  I have one that's a little too big to fit in a shirt pocket, but will easily fit into any jacket pocket, purse or small waistpack, etc.  It has a wide angle to 300mm telephoto lens.  It takes pictures that are very close in quality to those I take with my DSLR and various lenses (which I'm assuming the OP used here). 

I think it odd that he didn't take his own pictures.  We all "see" things a little differently and it shows in our photographic technique. 

I would not be willing to share ALL of my pictures with him either.  Some, sure.  But not all.  It's like the Little Red Hen story.  She did all the work.  Why should he get all the benefits?  And only she knows him well enough to know whether he'd show her pictures to others and imply that they were his images. 

Not only that, but she probably wanted the opportunity to edit some of them.  Some get deleted altogether, some get cropped or have some other minor changes.  No, I definitely wouldn't give him direct copies of all my originals.

What maybe I would do is make him a CD of a few selected (by me) pictures to compliment his own.  But unless this was something they had agreed on ahead of time, no, I wouldn't be willing to share to the extent he is demanding.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: EMuir on December 30, 2012, 08:05:18 PM
I'd tell him that I'd be setting up an online album I'd share with him, and then I'd post selected photos to that album, with watermarks if I'm concerned about his sharing them as his own.  However, that would just be if I was expecting to sell the images.  If they were just personal photos and he wanted them and might say he took them? Who cares? My friends will know he's lying if I tell them, and otherwise someone thinking he takes great pics doesn't reflect badly on me.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: bloo on December 30, 2012, 08:13:21 PM
I would be bothered, generally, by an "expectation" being stated, rather than a request to share.

Aside from that, it isn't only that OP has the expense of good equipment, and the logistics and effort of traveling with it and putting effort into her photos - they are personal mementos of significance to OP.  OP shared photos which featured her friend, and beyond that - I would imagine many/most of the views OP photographed are pretty readily available on line if her friend wants just the image.  If what the friend wants is a photo diary of the trip, or just copies of some awesome shots OP took - because he would enjoy them - then asking politely would have been much better than approaching it as an entitlement on his part.

To Surianne's point about writing as a comparable example, I once had a friend ask me to write up a story and recommendation about her husband's cooking which she wanted to submit to a newspaper for a profile.  I did, and I was chagrined to see the eventual article in which she took what I had written and submitted it as her own.  It was not a big effort for me, and it cost me nothing to have her present my writing as her own - other than some respect for her and a vow to myself to not respond to any remotely similar requests from her.

When anyone makes an investment or effort to create something, it is worth recognizing that the result is likely valued by that person, even if not monetarily.  Asking someone to share something they value is then best done in a way which at least suggests the requester also values what is being requested, *and* the creative effort of the originator.
"Download all your photos" does not show value held, or appreciation.

It's fine if there is an agreement in advance, and I usually have no issue with sharing my own photos, but I think I would have reacted, responded and felt much as did OP in this situation.

This. Exactly this.

Photography is an art. Some people invest time, money, talent and their heart and emotions to produce beautiful photographs. No different than any other art form.

Some people like to have decent equipment and don't mind sharing it. Good for them.

Some people use their old, 2.0 MP phones and take the crappiest pictures imaginable. Nobody WANTS their pictures! :)

If I was a professional photographer or even an amateur, I would feel uncomfortable with someone demanding something I created. What I capture with a camera is personal to me. If I choose to share it I still would want to maintain control over it.

Speaking another language to help a friend is not analogous, IMO.

I've noticed when it comes to cooking there is a broad range of talents and abilities. I've got one girlfriend that is an excellent cook but hates to give out her recipes. On the rare occasions she has, it's been with the caveat "Don't bring this to any of the potlucks I'll be at. This is one of my signature dishes."

Other excellent cooks are generous with their recipes and don't care who brings what-to-where.

I'm surprised that anyone would have a hard time understanding why one would have proprietary feelings towards something they created. Some of us have these proprietary feelings and others don't. Neither are wrong, but both sides need to show respect toward the other's viewpoint. Of course the artist is the one that gets to decide who does or doesn't get whatever it is the others want from them.

I think that OP was very generous to give the friend the pictures including the friend.

Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: SingMeAway on December 30, 2012, 08:16:14 PM
Taking good photographs is an art. No different than painting a picture or making a drawing. I also, as a photographer and designer, would not just hand over all my photos. It would be wonderful if you did have a photo book made up for him - he would have some mementos and you can watermark the photos. If he wanted photos so badly, he could have brought more than an iPhone (though those do take good quality photos).
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: CakeEater on December 30, 2012, 08:18:08 PM
I take very bad photos with my cheap point and shoot camera. I recognise that there is a massive difference between the quality of my photos and photos taken by even an amateur photographer. At times, I'm willing to pay for good photos taken by professionals with expensive equipment and knowledge of how to compose, edit etc. At other times, I put up with my own, bad shots. I don't expect both - to get the photos, but not to either pay the money or gain the skills myself.

I make decorated cakes. I've spent a lot of time, money and effort learning how to do it, and bought lots of equipment. No-one (expect my Mum and my husband  ;) ) gets to demand that I use that knowledge, skills and equipment for their benefit, regardless of whether it will cost me in terms of money.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: JenJay on December 30, 2012, 08:24:15 PM
As an aside -
This reminds me of the thread regarding asking for recipes and people who prefer not to share them. I never really "got" that side of the debate because I've never invented a recipe from scratch so I couldn't relate to it from that POV. I have, however, caught some nice photos and while I'd be happy to give someone a print or upload it somewhere and send them a link, I can't imagine giving someone the raw photo to do with as they please and being okay with them possibly sharing it and not crediting me. I don't think it's wrong, it just feels weird to me. It's mine. I made it. Now I can completely relate to those of you who don't share recipes.  :D
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: Amara on December 30, 2012, 08:42:32 PM
I am a serious amateur photographer, and I would have said no the first time in such a way that he would have known that whining or carrying on would not only not change my mind but damage our relationship. What the OP took was not just vacation photos, but fine art. Art she created and cares about. Art she doesn't want to share or sell. Art that belongs to her alone. Her work, her investment, her product.

ETA: Knitters know how much time, effort, knowledge, and money go into a beautiful wool sweater. Bakers know the same about their cakes. Painters and sculptors know the same about their crafts. So do photographers. Anyone can take photos with a phone or point-and-shoot camera. But the OP bought special equipment for the sole purpose of taking high-quality photographs for herself. No one has the right to expect her to share them.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: GrammarNerd on December 30, 2012, 08:48:36 PM
I think you were generous to give him the pictures that had him in them.  Good for you for bean-dipping about the other ones.  Just keep saying that you need to edit them or whatever.

My mother passed away and as part of her estate settlement, I took some of the money and bought some GOOD equipment.  Specifically, a camera body that was near pro-quality and two lenses that are considered to be top of the line.  I still have a lot to learn.  But I occasionally get the good picture, and I'm happy about that.  But that doesn't mean that I'm going to share them with all and sundry.

I take pictures for my kids' sports team (for a compilation in an end-of-the-year slideshow) and sometimes I'm proud of the shots that I get, but I've had to learn not to show them to parents (even if I am proud of them), because then I get the offhand 'oh, can you send me that?' request.  Really, it's just not that easy.  Files are big, I might have several good shots, and if I downloaded every picture, do you know how long that would take to send that to everyone who wants one?  My camera takes 6-7 frames per second.  I have an insane amount of pictures. And one picture per email message?  Yeah, definitely NOT spending that amount of time.

I think you're fine.  If nothing else, turn it around on your friend.  "If the pictures were so important to you, why didn't you bring a camera?"  The inevitable response will be that he thought you'd share.  "Well, I'm not ready to share all of my pictures.  But I did download the ones that had you in them."  Then just repeat that you're not ready to share all of the pictures.  If he still presses, then just go a little further in (whining) saying how you invested ALL of this money in camera equipment, and you have certain standards because of that. And you couldn't even indulge in souvenirs because of the expense of purchasing all of that professional quality equipment, and you're just not sharing massive quantities of pictures with ANYONE until you're completely satisfied that they live up to the standard that you've set for yourself.

If nothing else, just say, "Seriously?  I've already spent (x amount of time) going through everything to cull out the pictures with you in them.  Do you have any idea how long it would take me to go through everything else, not to mention downloading them?  No way.  Dude, next time get a camera of your own."  Treat it more like he's being unreasonable/like it's a joke, and he might be less likely to press further.

You're not being unreasonable at all.  You invested the money in the equipment, you spent the time lugging the equipment around, setting up the shots, adjusting the camera settings, etc.  They are YOUR souvenirs.  You hold the memories and the 'proof' of doing all of the work to get that perfect shot.  That's worth something to you.  If you want to be snarky, you can ask him if he's going to let you wear his souvenir sweatshirts if you share your pictures with him.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: magician5 on December 30, 2012, 08:54:38 PM
You went to all that trouble, just as you describe, true.

But you did it for you, because you wanted to, without any thought about your companion entering in to the decision. You would, I assume, have done exactly the same thing if you had been alone.

What does it cost you to be generous? It doesn't suddenly change all that you decided at the outset. What would it cost you to give him the photos? You will have no less at the end whether you share or not.

Since you asked, I'd say to tell him "sure", unless there's some reason it's too much trouble. Maybe tell him that he can buy you a nice bottle of wine.

And don't travel with him again.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: Miss March on December 30, 2012, 08:55:41 PM
My sister takes lovely photographs with her very nice camera. Now at most of our family events, no one else bothers to take pictures at all- they just all make a quick request she "email them copies." It's awful the way people get so comfortable with the idea of someone else doing all the work and having all the care and mindfulness to capture wonderful pictures, and how blithely they request the pictures for themselves. I completely get where the OP was coming from on this.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: blarg314 on December 30, 2012, 08:57:50 PM
Send him all 650 photos. In RAW format. Including all of of the bad angles, blurred shots, over and under-exposed shots, and the 30 shots of the same scene with slightly different camera settings. Without any post processing.   >:D

I also lug expensive and heavy camera stuff around on vacation. I have no problem sharing photos with fellow travellers - I like to get some shots with me in them, and my camera is not suited to having strangers take group shots. I would be peeved if someone demanded *all* my photos. And I wouldn't necessarily share those few great shots - the ones that I want to frame and display, or use for Christmas gifts.  For most photos, I distributed ones that have been processed, converted to jpg, and scaled to a manageable size .

I figure some of it's a tradeoff to some extent. My companions have been patient while I take those nice shots (which are more time consuming than the iphone shots), so I share some of my photos with them.

Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: CakeEater on December 30, 2012, 09:19:43 PM
You went to all that trouble, just as you describe, true.

But you did it for you, because you wanted to, without any thought about your companion entering in to the decision. You would, I assume, have done exactly the same thing if you had been alone.

What does it cost you to be generous? It doesn't suddenly change all that you decided at the outset. What would it cost you to give him the photos? You will have no less at the end whether you share or not.

This isn't the exact same situation, I realise, but here's an analogy. I write a two page paper on Columbus for history class. My friend at another school also has to write a two page paper for their history class. Mine is submitted, graded, done. My friend asks me to give them a copy to hand in. I did it for my own grade, right? I would have put the same effort in. Why should my friend not get a copy?

Putting aside the ethical issue of plagiarism, because that doesn't apply in the photo case, I wouldn't email him a copy because it's my work, my research and effort and internet connection that went into creating the paper, and if my friend wants a two page paper he can create one himself.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: bloo on December 30, 2012, 09:31:53 PM
You went to all that trouble, just as you describe, true.

But you did it for you, because you wanted to, without any thought about your companion entering in to the decision. You would, I assume, have done exactly the same thing if you had been alone.

What does it cost you to be generous? It doesn't suddenly change all that you decided at the outset. What would it cost you to give him the photos? You will have no less at the end whether you share or not.

This isn't the exact same situation, I realise, but here's an analogy. I write a two page paper on Columbus for history class. My friend at another school also has to write a two page paper for their history class. Mine is submitted, graded, done. My friend asks me to give them a copy to hand in. I did it for my own grade, right? I would have put the same effort in. Why should my friend not get a copy?

Putting aside the ethical issue of plagiarism, because that doesn't apply in the photo case, I wouldn't email him a copy because it's my work, my research and effort and internet connection that went into creating the paper, and if my friend wants a two page paper he can create one himself.

Excellent point CakeEater and while plagiarism doesn't apply, copyright certainly does. If it's my copy, I have all the rights to it.

Magician5 you asked "What does it cost you to be generous?....What would it cost you to give him the photos?"

See, those questions make me think that this is not a clear concept for some: when you create something you have a personal proprietary interest in it. When you create a photograph, painting, novel, song or other such piece, it is yours in perpetuity to do with as you please. Control of your work can be handed down to your heirs. If there are no heirs, then it may come under public use. 

Even if you share it, you have a controlling interest in it unless you choose to give it up.

When you put something of yourself in something you create, the cost may be quite high personally to 'give it up'. No one else gets to determine what the value is. For everyone there is a different value threshold. 
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: delabela on December 30, 2012, 09:38:14 PM
I would be extremely put off if a friend to whom I was close enough to travel with refused to let me have pictures they took of our vacation (although I certainly agree I would have asked nicely).  If there is a caveat, such as don't put the pictures on facebook, I think you could stipulate to that at the time of transfer.  I understand what people are saying about wanting to protect (general) your work, but this isn't a stranger off the street or cousin Bob's best friend's roommate asking for a favor, it's a friend. 

I would feel differently if you took the pictures for a professional reason. 
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: bloo on December 30, 2012, 09:44:52 PM
I would be extremely put off if a friend to whom I was close enough to travel with refused to let me have pictures they took of our vacation (although I certainly agree I would have asked nicely).  If there is a caveat, such as don't put the pictures on facebook, I think you could stipulate to that at the time of transfer.  I understand what people are saying about wanting to protect (general) your work, but this isn't a stranger off the street or cousin Bob's best friend's roommate asking for a favor, it's a friend. 

I would feel differently if you took the pictures for a professional reason.

Yes, but no one else gets to decide if MY reasons for keeping my creation available for my own use are 'good enough' reasons. Just because those reason are not good enough in your (general) eyes, doesn't mean I'm on the hook to give away my creation. It's mine. I made it. I don't have to legitimize my reasons for not sharing to anyone.

Hopefully those who think differently will respect a kindly said, "I'm afraid that won't be possible."

Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: delabela on December 30, 2012, 09:55:55 PM
Quote
Yes, but no one else gets to decide if MY reasons for keeping my creation available for my own use are 'good enough' reasons. Just because those reason are not good enough in your (general) eyes, doesn't mean I'm on the hook to give away my creation. It's mine. I made it. I don't have to legitimize my reasons for not sharing to anyone.

Hopefully those who think differently will respect a kindly said, "I'm afraid that won't be possible."

That's true that no one is under an obligation to explain themselves.  I guess for me, without some sort of explanation or cluing me in to why the pictures were off limits, it would probably have a cooling effect on the relationship.  Not sharing the pictures is just not part of my experiences in the dynamics of my friendships, but that's my personal experience. 
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: bloo on December 30, 2012, 10:09:37 PM
That's true that no one is under an obligation to explain themselves.  I guess for me, without some sort of explanation or cluing me in to why the pictures were off limits, it would probably have a cooling effect on the relationship.  Not sharing the pictures is just not part of my experiences in the dynamics of my friendships, but that's my personal experience.

Several posters that do photography have mentioned their reasons for not handing over their creations. If you became friends with a person for whom photography was a profession or a serious hobby, would you accept the explanation that PP's have given?

See I think most people are not pro's or serious hobbyists so, in my experience, most people hand over photos, in whatever format, with no problems. But the fact that most do this doesn't mean that someone who holds back isn't being a true friend.

Last year my sibling and one of my parents and I went overseas. I didn't even bring a camera because I take lousy pictures and my sibling and parent document EVERYTHING photographically. I also already know that they would offer to give me all their pictures and video; which is exactly what they did. I had an expectation that they set me up for. But I have a lot of pro photographers in my circle of friends so I have no expectations of their work and am grateful for the pictures they do give me. It would cause no problem at all for them to tell me 'no' at a request of one of their shots.

To me it's akin to someone coming into my home and seeing something of mine that has value to me and asking 'can I have that?'

I know it's a photo. I know it can be duplicated so that I can still have the original. But the image is what's important and once I give that away I lose control of that image no differently than if I let someone take something out of my home that is mine. 
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: Onyx_TKD on December 30, 2012, 10:11:13 PM
Let's say the friend speaks French because he spent the time, considerable effort and money to learn French. You did not.  Your choice. You could have learned French at some point in your life, but you chose not to do so. You were expecting that when you two went to Paris, that he would translate for you. But then the two of you get to Paris and he refuses to translate for you.

How would you feel about your friend and the friendship?

I don't think this example as presented is quite comparable to the OP (or at least, it is too simplified).

I speak German and have traveled in German-speaking areas with non German speakers. I was usually happy to play translator, however, there were some very important caveats. A) The people I was traveling with either reciprocated (e.g., the French speaker played translator for me when we were in French-speaking areas) or were visiting the German-speaking areas at my suggestion/invitation (e.g., my family visiting me when I lived there). B) My fellow travelers made an effort to learn basic German phrases and use them appropriately, instead of assuming that I would handle everything. C) They did not demand non-essential translations. If they wanted something translated for their own interest, they asked me to translate (or I volunteered the translation because I guessed that it would interest them). And finally D) if I was unable to translate something for any reason, they dealt with that without complaint and handled the situation as best they could, just as they would have without a translator.

The OP's friend told (not asked) her to give him all of her photos. In terms of translating, I think this is analogous to something like going to a German art exhibit, and my companion demanding that I translate all the German exhibit labels for him. One might think this is trivial--if I'm reading and understanding the labels myself, why can't I tell him what it says? But it's not that simple. I'm not translating it in my head as I read, so I can't just say it out loud in English, and understanding the gist of something I read in German is easier than trying to translate it for an English speaker. I'm usually willing to try, but I expect to be met halfway. This hypothetical friend could view and appreciate the art without reading all of the labels (just as the OP's friend got to enjoy the trip whether he gets her photos or not), so my translations aren't essential. He could be selective and ask only about the pieces he was particularly interested in (like the OP's friend could have asked if he could have copies of a few specific images). He could just let me choose which information I thought was important or interesting enough to translate (as the OP's friend could have waited to see if any photos were freely offered). He could find out if there was any English-language form of the basic exhibit information, e.g., an English-language brochure or audio guide (like the OP's friend could have brought his own camera equipment). If he instead felt entitled to translations of everything, made no effort to cut back to a more reasonable request, and kept insisting after I said I wouldn't translate everything, and especially if he didn't even bother to act appreciative of the translations I was doing for him, then I'd be seriously ticked off. He should have hired a professional translator if that's what he wanted.

My traveling companions aren't entitled to an on-demand translation service just because I speak German, nor are the OP's entitled to all her photos just because she's a good photographer, unless that is agreed upon beforehand. That doesn't mean that I won't translate or that the OP will refuse to share any photos. On the contrary, I'm usually happy to try and translate for my friends and family. However, polite requests and some appreciation for those favors (which is what they are) is IMO the absolute minimum that should be offered if you wish to receive translations/photos/etc. And if you want lots of translations/photos/etc., then either reach an explicit agreement in advance, hire a professional, or be ready to accept the answer "no."
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: CakeEater on December 30, 2012, 10:27:55 PM
Quote
Yes, but no one else gets to decide if MY reasons for keeping my creation available for my own use are 'good enough' reasons. Just because those reason are not good enough in your (general) eyes, doesn't mean I'm on the hook to give away my creation. It's mine. I made it. I don't have to legitimize my reasons for not sharing to anyone.

Hopefully those who think differently will respect a kindly said, "I'm afraid that won't be possible."

That's true that no one is under an obligation to explain themselves.  I guess for me, without some sort of explanation or cluing me in to why the pictures were off limits, it would probably have a cooling effect on the relationship.  Not sharing the pictures is just not part of my experiences in the dynamics of my friendships, but that's my personal experience.

As I said earlier, I take bad photos. And they're very rarely of a subject that anyone would be interested in. And I didn't put any effort into them beyond pointing the camera I got for christmas a few years ago and pushing the button. So, really, anyone I know is welcome to any photos I take.

However, people who are interested in photography research the type of cameras, lenses, tripods,lighting equipment, camera case, photo imaging software, etc that they think does the best job, and they spend a lot of money buying them.

Then they either take classes,  or they read books or manuals or blogs on lighting and composition and photo editing etc (I don't know that much about photography).

Then they go out and spend hours, days, or years practising taking photos and they wait for the best light, and they cart all their equipment places in order to do that until they get quite good at it.

Then they sit at their computer and they learn how to use their photo editing software and they spend time on each photo doing whatever they do to make it the image they want.

I wouldn't think badly of someone, who after all that, didn't want to just hand over the final product of all that time, effort and research just because someone asked for it.

Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: TurtleDove on December 30, 2012, 10:43:17 PM
I wouldn't think badly of someone, who after all that, didn't want to just hand over the final product of all that time, effort and research just because someone asked for it.
I wouldn't think "badly" of such a person, but especially if I was there when the photo was taken and was in the photo I would find it offputting.  My relationship would cool.  For the OP, of course she can protect her work product. It's hers to protect.  But she cannot also expect that her friend who was there with her will not think it's weird she won't share her photos. 
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: delabela on December 30, 2012, 10:49:38 PM
Quote
I wouldn't think badly of someone, who after all that, didn't want to just hand over the final product of all that time, effort and research just because someone asked for it.

I think perhaps I am thinking of a narrower situation than you are.  As I stated, if I were in this particular situation ((1)on vacation and (2)with a friend) I would find it strange and alienating if they were not open to sharing their pictures.  I do not expect any person I am with to share any picture they happen to take - such as a picture taken at dinner at the local pub by a friend of a friend.  However, as I consider the whole point of sharing a vacation with someone to have new experiences/memories, I would find a friend's unwillingness to share pictures odd (provided I had asked nicely and offered my own pictures).  Several people close to me are in professions (including photography) that some people tend to take advantage of, and I wouldn't dream of assuming I would be provided a freebie when they are in "professional mode."  But all of them have freely shared creations that were made in "friend mode," which I greatly appreciate.

It does sound like the OP's friend was not particularly considerate in how he asked, and OP attempted to find a middle ground.  I suppose I'm just saying that I can understand where he was coming from, even if he went about it particularly gracelessly.

On another note, I appreciate hearing the other views on this topic - it helps me to recognize my own assumptions. 
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: buvezdevin on December 30, 2012, 10:52:29 PM
I wouldn't think badly of someone, who after all that, didn't want to just hand over the final product of all that time, effort and research just because someone asked for it.
I wouldn't think "badly" of such a person, but especially if I was there when the photo was taken and was in the photo I would find it offputting.  My relationship would cool.  For the OP, of course she can protect her work product. It's hers to protect.  But she cannot also expect that her friend who was there with her will not think it's weird she won't share her photos.
Anyone thinking "not sharing" of anything is weird does not make it weird, nor mean that the expectant recipient's view is of greater import than the view of the person who is expected to share.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: Amara on December 30, 2012, 10:55:12 PM
I would hope that my friend would be able to understand and respect the fact that to me these are works of art that I have worked very hard to create, that they are special to me, and that because I do not want to share them (other than the ones I gave him that had him in it and so should be special to him) I am no less a friend. I have an art I have worked hard on for my own pleasure. It is my right to keep what I want for myself and while yes, the friend can cool the relationship based on that, it is, in my opinion, a poor friend who would pit his own wishes against my feelings.

I would never disrespect another friend's developed craft (knitting, crocheting, baking, sculpting, painting, woodworking, etc.) by demanding or even requesting a free piece.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: Firecat on December 30, 2012, 11:03:45 PM
I wouldn't think badly of someone, who after all that, didn't want to just hand over the final product of all that time, effort and research just because someone asked for it.
I wouldn't think "badly" of such a person, but especially if I was there when the photo was taken and was in the photo I would find it offputting.  My relationship would cool.  For the OP, of course she can protect her work product. It's hers to protect.  But she cannot also expect that her friend who was there with her will not think it's weird she won't share her photos.

But the OP did provide the pictures the friend was in.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: CakeEater on December 30, 2012, 11:18:07 PM
Quote
I wouldn't think badly of someone, who after all that, didn't want to just hand over the final product of all that time, effort and research just because someone asked for it.

I think perhaps I am thinking of a narrower situation than you are.  As I stated, if I were in this particular situation ((1)on vacation and (2)with a friend) I would find it strange and alienating if they were not open to sharing their pictures.  I do not expect any person I am with to share any picture they happen to take - such as a picture taken at dinner at the local pub by a friend of a friend.  However, as I consider the whole point of sharing a vacation with someone to have new experiences/memories, I would find a friend's unwillingness to share pictures odd (provided I had asked nicely and offered my own pictures).  Several people close to me are in professions (including photography) that some people tend to take advantage of, and I wouldn't dream of assuming I would be provided a freebie when they are in "professional mode."  But all of them have freely shared creations that were made in "friend mode," which I greatly appreciate.

It does sound like the OP's friend was not particularly considerate in how he asked, and OP attempted to find a middle ground.  I suppose I'm just saying that I can understand where he was coming from, even if he went about it particularly gracelessly.

On another note, I appreciate hearing the other views on this topic - it helps me to recognize my own assumptions.

I get that, too. I don't know anyone who is any kind of photographer, and sharing photos among friends is a very common thing to me as well. No-one's photos are better than anyone else's though, except by accident, which I think is a different situation.

I guess I'm picturing the OP wanting to enlarge artfully taken pictures of the Eiffel Tower, or Notre Dame, (and valuing the photos on that level) and the friend more wanting happy snaps of their holiday, and knowing that the OP's would be better than his. OP did share the photos with him in them, which may have been more in the second category.


I wouldn't think badly of someone, who after all that, didn't want to just hand over the final product of all that time, effort and research just because someone asked for it.
I wouldn't think "badly" of such a person, but especially if I was there when the photo was taken and was in the photo I would find it offputting.  My relationship would cool.  For the OP, of course she can protect her work product. It's hers to protect.  But she cannot also expect that her friend who was there with her will not think it's weird she won't share her photos.
Anyone thinking "not sharing" of anything is weird does not make it weird, nor mean that the expectant recipient's view is of greater import than the view of the person who is expected to share.

Well said!

Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: snowdragon on December 30, 2012, 11:21:51 PM
I do a LOT of photography - and just like the recipes I create, the pictures I draw and the soap I make - they are mine to decide whom I want to gift them to. Frankly if someone thinks that just because they were there when I took the picture, they have automatically entitled to a copy - wouldn't have time to cool off the relationship. I'd be the one pulling back and I would be doing it from the first demand/request/whine about it.  I don't ever take pictures of people I know (unless they are pictures deliberately take of my niece and nephew to send to their maternal grandparents overseas) so the pictures of traveling companion is a non -issue but for the rest of my pictures, you're not entitled to them anymore than you would be anything else I own or create. The whole, "you have it, I want it, you have to give it to me" attitude does not go over well with me.
 
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: Raintree on December 30, 2012, 11:27:08 PM
I had a similar issue. After a trip, one of the people in my group wanted me to upload all my pictures from my camera to her laptop, before I'd gone home and looked at them myself and sorted them. I really didn't want to do this. Not that there was anything private, or that I didn't want to share; I was happy to share them, once I'd sorted them! But she was quite persistent and wanted it right now, before we'd even got home.

The issue for me was that on the trip, I'd gone off on my own plenty of times and played around with various settings on the camera (which I'd only recently acquired), tried this, tried that, taken a zillion shots of the same scene, using slightly different angles and settings, tried various nature shots with different lighting, and so forth and so on. I can't really pinpoint why, but I felt very uncomfortable uploading the entire collection of unsorted and unprocessed images onto her laptop.

Like, I'll share, but let me go home and sort them out first!!! (And I promise not to delete any of the ones of her that there's a possibility she might want!)
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: Raintree on December 30, 2012, 11:29:38 PM
I do a LOT of photography - and just like the recipes I create, the pictures I draw and the soap I make - they are mine to decide whom I want to gift them to. Frankly if someone thinks that just because they were there when I took the picture, they have automatically entitled to a copy - wouldn't have time to cool off the relationship. I'd be the one pulling back and I would be doing it from the first demand/request/whine about it.  I don't ever take pictures of people I know (unless they are pictures deliberately take of my niece and nephew to send to their maternal grandparents overseas) so the pictures of traveling companion is a non -issue but for the rest of my pictures, you're not entitled to them anymore than you would be anything else I own or create. The whole, "you have it, I want it, you have to give it to me" attitude does not go over well with me.

Exactly, and there is that too. Some people see vacation pictures as memories/snapshots that are there for sharing, and don't understand that for others, photography is an art form, a creation, a joy, and it's the photographer who gets to decide what to do with those images.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: Curly Wurly Doggie Breath on December 30, 2012, 11:45:13 PM
My sister takes lovely photographs with her very nice camera. Now at most of our family events, no one else bothers to take pictures at all- they just all make a quick request she "email them copies." It's awful the way people get so comfortable with the idea of someone else doing all the work and having all the care and mindfulness to capture wonderful pictures, and how blithely they request the pictures for themselves. I completely get where the OP was coming from on this.

^^ This is where I stand too.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: Curly Wurly Doggie Breath on December 30, 2012, 11:48:00 PM
I do a LOT of photography - and just like the recipes I create, the pictures I draw and the soap I make - they are mine to decide whom I want to gift them to. Frankly if someone thinks that just because they were there when I took the picture, they have automatically entitled to a copy - wouldn't have time to cool off the relationship. I'd be the one pulling back and I would be doing it from the first demand/request/whine about it.  I don't ever take pictures of people I know (unless they are pictures deliberately take of my niece and nephew to send to their maternal grandparents overseas) so the pictures of traveling companion is a non -issue but for the rest of my pictures, you're not entitled to them anymore than you would be anything else I own or create. The whole, "you have it, I want it, you have to give it to me" attitude does not go over well with me.

Exactly, and there is that too. Some people see vacation pictures as memories/snapshots that are there for sharing, and don't understand that for others, photography is an art form, a creation, a joy, and it's the photographer who gets to decide what to do with those images.

Ditto ^^
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: blarg314 on December 31, 2012, 12:09:57 AM

I think that if I had a friend who refused to give me *any* photos after a mutual trip*, on the grounds that I could buy an expensive camera and take my own if I wanted them, it would affect how I saw that person.  They have the right to do that, certainly, but it doesn't necessarily reflect well on their personality or outlook on life. It could affect how eager I would be to do favours or un-necessary nice things for that person in the future.

There are two components to vacation photos (or event photos). One is the artistic aspect, and that's one that I can see keeping the results for yourself. The other is the snapshot aspect - photos to remind you of a fun trip. Given that it's kind of hard to take photos of yourself, and in a lot of places I travel using a tripod for a self photo is tantamount to sticking a 'steal me' sign on it, swapping some photos to get a good set after a trip is not that unreasonable request.

*Note that I'm not talking about wanting to save really good shots for artistic use, or not being willing to pass over all the photos, or even a request that I keep them only for personal use.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: kansha on December 31, 2012, 12:16:30 AM

I think that if I had a friend who refused to give me *any* photos after a mutual trip*, on the grounds that I could buy an expensive camera and take my own if I wanted them, it would affect how I saw that person.  They have the right to do that, certainly, but it doesn't necessarily reflect well on their personality or outlook on life. It could affect how eager I would be to do favours or un-necessary nice things for that person in the future.

There are two components to vacation photos (or event photos). One is the artistic aspect, and that's one that I can see keeping the results for yourself. The other is the snapshot aspect - photos to remind you of a fun trip. Given that it's kind of hard to take photos of yourself, and in a lot of places I travel using a tripod for a self photo is tantamount to sticking a 'steal me' sign on it, swapping some photos to get a good set after a trip is not that unreasonable request.

*Note that I'm not talking about wanting to save really good shots for artistic use, or not being willing to pass over all the photos, or even a request that I keep them only for personal use.
but the OP *gave* the friend the photos the friend was in...
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: CakeEater on December 31, 2012, 12:32:22 AM

I think that if I had a friend who refused to give me *any* photos after a mutual trip*, on the grounds that I could buy an expensive camera and take my own if I wanted them, it would affect how I saw that person.  They have the right to do that, certainly, but it doesn't necessarily reflect well on their personality or outlook on life. It could affect how eager I would be to do favours or un-necessary nice things for that person in the future.

There are two components to vacation photos (or event photos). One is the artistic aspect, and that's one that I can see keeping the results for yourself. The other is the snapshot aspect - photos to remind you of a fun trip. Given that it's kind of hard to take photos of yourself, and in a lot of places I travel using a tripod for a self photo is tantamount to sticking a 'steal me' sign on it, swapping some photos to get a good set after a trip is not that unreasonable request.

*Note that I'm not talking about wanting to save really good shots for artistic use, or not being willing to pass over all the photos, or even a request that I keep them only for personal use.

And the OP was about her friend asking that all 600 odd photos, including the artistic images, be loaded onto his ipad. I think it's perfectly reasonable to ask your professional photographer friend for the shot they took of you standing at the top of the Eiffel tower.  What would be even better is asking friend to take a photo of you with your ipad, and then they might offer to take it with their camera and give you a copy.

I make decorated cakes, as I said previously. On their birthday, my friend could buy a cake at the shops, or buy a box mix and whip up a cake. They wouldn't miss out on having cake just because I didn't make them a super fancy one - they could make their own. It mightn't be as nice, or as pretty, but they'd have cake. If they wanted one of mine, they should ask me for one and offer to pay for it.  They don't just get to demand my skills be employed on their behalf just because I have them.

Friend took his own photos with his ipad. They mightn't be as good as the OP's, but he had photos. He doesn't get to ask for all her shots, just because they're better than his.

Who is the worse friend, the one who demands what is mine, or me for refusing to give it?
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: LifeOnPluto on December 31, 2012, 12:40:53 AM
What gets me, is that the OP's friend wanted all 650 of her photos. To me, that seems unreasonable. If he'd requested only some of them - say the ones with him, and a few other notable ones - I'd think it would be a bit mean-spirited if the OP was to refuse. But for the friend to demand all 650 photos is quite cheeky IMO.

Also, in those 650 photos, there will invariably be ones that aren't that great. Over or under exposed. Or blurred. Or several of the same scene, etc. I personally wouldn't feel comfortable handing over "bad" photos to a friend. Several posters have raised the possibility of the friend passing off the photos as theirs, to the wider public. But what about the opposite scenario? What if the friend credits the "bad" photos as the OP's? I know that I would not be comfortable with someone else posting my shoddy photos all over the internet.

 
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: snowdragon on December 31, 2012, 01:14:07 AM

I think that if I had a friend who refused to give me *any* photos after a mutual trip*, on the grounds that I could buy an expensive camera and take my own if I wanted them, it would affect how I saw that person.  They have the right to do that, certainly, but it doesn't necessarily reflect well on their personality or outlook on life. It could affect how eager I would be to do favours or un-necessary nice things for that person in the future.

There are two components to vacation photos (or event photos). One is the artistic aspect, and that's one that I can see keeping the results for yourself. The other is the snapshot aspect - photos to remind you of a fun trip. Given that it's kind of hard to take photos of yourself, and in a lot of places I travel using a tripod for a self photo is tantamount to sticking a 'steal me' sign on it, swapping some photos to get a good set after a trip is not that unreasonable request.

*Note that I'm not talking about wanting to save really good shots for artistic use, or not being willing to pass over all the photos, or even a request that I keep them only for personal use.

The way around that is to have someone else take the picture for you, on your camera, then it's your photo- of you. The person who gets to decide if it's an unreasonable request is the person who took them - not the person who they happened to be traveling with at the time
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: Talley on December 31, 2012, 01:28:02 AM
My husband is an avid photographer, who owns semi-pro equipment and often takes professional-quality pictures. He does share pictures, but only after he has gone over them himself, weeded out the bad ones or any experimental shots. And then he gets to choose which pictures he shares. He also shoots RAW, which a lot of people don't know what to do with, I think.

If anyone ever told him to just upload all the pictures he took at a specific event wholesale for the other person to do with as they please, I don't think that that person would see any of his pictures for a long time. It is part a matter of copyright (they are his to do with as he pleases, and he absolutely hates Facebook and similar social media, so he doesn't particularly want his photos to end up there) and part a matter of pride (he doesn't want anyone to see the bad pics).

I think every photographer has the right to choose to share or not share their photos (unless they get paid for it, but even then they get to weed out and edit first, I would assume).
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: MariaE on December 31, 2012, 02:06:48 AM
The friend was rude in the way he demanded the photos, rather than asking for them - no doubt about that.

However, that said, I would never dream of going on vacation with a friend, taking photos, and then not sharing those photos with my friend. If I'm close enough to want to go travelling with them, I'm close enough to them that giving them a copy of my photos is a matter of course. If they didn't want to reciprocate, I'd take that as in indication of how close they feel the friendship is, and adjust my actions accordingly.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: helixa on December 31, 2012, 02:44:17 AM
It's not just a question of owning the photos, it's the fact that he obviously decided he could freeload off the OP and look around lots without taking photos himself then get her's later.
It takes time out from just being able to see everything when you take photos, so that's an added factor.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: laud_shy_girl on December 31, 2012, 05:11:49 AM
I had a similar issue. After a trip, one of the people in my group wanted me to upload all my pictures from my camera to her laptop, before I'd gone home and looked at them myself and sorted them. I really didn't want to do this. Not that there was anything private, or that I didn't want to share; I was happy to share them, once I'd sorted them! But she was quite persistent and wanted it right now, before we'd even got home.

The issue for me was that on the trip, I'd gone off on my own plenty of times and played around with various settings on the camera (which I'd only recently acquired), tried this, tried that, taken a zillion shots of the same scene, using slightly different angles and settings, tried various nature shots with different lighting, and so forth and so on. I can't really pinpoint why, but I felt very uncomfortable uploading the entire collection of unsorted and unprocessed images onto her laptop.

Like, I'll share, but let me go home and sort them out first!!! (And I promise not to delete any of the ones of her that there's a possibility she might want!)

POD
I take pictures and will share happily, in fact I will ask people if they want a copy of my pictures. That said, if I were in OP's position I would have just said no.
No one gets my pictures before I get a chance to look at them first.
Photographs are very personal, they are how I see the world and sometimes I look at one of my pictures and think it to personal to share. I also think the bad ones are embarrassing and definitely don't want them floating around..

I liken it more to asking an artist for their rough sketches. Just because the button has been pushed, doesn't mean the picture is finished and ready for viewing.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: Geekychick1984 on December 31, 2012, 06:57:39 AM
I totally get why the OP wouldn't want to share, and I think friend was rude to just demand the pictures.  If friend wanted copies of the pictures, he should have asked ahead of time.

Also, he should have offered to lug some of the heavy equipment around in exchange. :)
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: Winterlight on December 31, 2012, 07:04:15 AM
I think Friend could have politely asked in advance, and that would be fine. OP could say, "Sure, I'll share if you'll carry the tripod," or negotiate whatever deal she wanted to. Instead, Friend demanded all the photos and whined. Plus, he did get the ones he was in, so it's not like he was left emptyhanded.

You were fine.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: camlan on December 31, 2012, 07:14:27 AM
This discussion reminds me a lot of discussions we've had about sharing recipes. Some people share recipes willingly and others do not. Both sides have good reasons to support their decisions.

I think it's fine to ask for the pictures, but you have to be prepared to accept a "no."

You shouldn't assume that you can share in someone else's pictures without asking them first. Better to do it at the start of a trip, so you can take your own pictures if the answer is "no." Just because you like to share pictures does not mean everyone does.

Why someone wants to keep their pictures private is not something they have to share.

It would be nice if the photographer shared *some* of the pictures (which is what the OP did), but at their own convenience.

In this digital age, some photographers simply want to keep control of their work product (even if taken on vacation, it's still the product of their work and skill). All it takes is emailing one of those pictures to a friend who shares it with another friend or posts it on Facebook . . . and it could be anywhere. And it could be altered or used by anyone.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: onyonryngs on December 31, 2012, 08:23:34 AM
This is your friend.  If you're close enough to travel together, can't you have a conversation where you discuss that you'll be happy to share the photos if he promises not to post them on FB or anything without your permission?  It seems like it'd be a fairly easy conversation to have.  But I can't imagine not sharing pics of a shared vacation.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: PastryGoddess on December 31, 2012, 08:36:55 AM
Just because you (general) can't imagine not sharing with friends doesn't mean the OP is wrong for deciding to do so
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: Queen of Clubs on December 31, 2012, 08:49:25 AM
I totally get why the OP wouldn't want to share, and I think friend was rude to just demand the pictures.  If friend wanted copies of the pictures, he should have asked ahead of time.

Also, he should have offered to lug some of the heavy equipment around in exchange. :)

Yeah, I agree.  The OP lugged around all that heavy equipment, did all the work, then the guy wants to share in all the fruits of her labour?  No.  Asking for some photos is fine, but expecting to get them all (then repeatedly whining when he doesn't) isn't fine.  He could have asked beforehand and offered to help out in carrying the heavy stuff.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: Hmmmmm on December 31, 2012, 08:53:52 AM
The problems I have with what occurred are:

1. Your traveling companion never offering to carry your heavy items at times.  I can't imagine touring around Paris and never once offering to carry a large case my companion had with them.  Maybe since it was electronic expensive equipment he didn't want to be responsible, but even then I think I would still offer on occasion.

2.  He asked for something that wasn't his.  You don't ask for things that aren't yours if they weren't offered. 

But saying all that I would be suprised if a traveling companion didn't offer me copies of some of their shots.  Honestly I wouldn't want all of them uploaded to me as I can't imagine the drudgery if sifting through 600 photos to find maybe a dozen that I'd want.

OP, for the future, I recommend commenting to traveling companions, especially owned who may have spent some time waiting in you to finish lining up the perfect shot, that after you've had time to go through your shots, you'll send them the ones you think you'll enjoy. 
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: gramma dishes on December 31, 2012, 09:12:39 AM

...    I take pictures and will share happily, in fact I will ask people if they want a copy of my pictures. That said, if I were in OP's position I would have just said no.
No one gets my pictures before I get a chance to look at them first.
Photographs are very personal, they are how I see the world and sometimes I look at one of my pictures and think it to personal to share. I also think the bad ones are embarrassing and definitely don't want them floating around..

I liken it more to asking an artist for their rough sketches. Just because the button has been pushed, doesn't mean the picture is finished and ready for viewing.

Superbly said.  I think what's happening here is that some people are lumping all "pictures" together as being of equal value.  They are not. 

There are snapshots (quickly taken with little thought as to lighting, composition, etc.) and there are photographs (taken carefully with meticulous attention to detail).  They are not created equally at all.  No one minds sharing snapshots.  They'll end up in a box in the bottom of a drawer and probably never be looked at again anyway.  But photographs are a whole different matter.

Laud_shy_girl has it right.  Photographs are very personal and are an expression of how the photographer who created them sees the world.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: snowdragon on December 31, 2012, 09:47:47 AM
I wonder if the people who would think less of someone who didn't share, would feel the same about anything else that person owned.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: onyonryngs on December 31, 2012, 10:08:10 AM
I wonder if the people who would think less of someone who didn't share, would feel the same about anything else that person owned.

I specifically answered regarding the photos.  I wasn't thinking about any hypothetical what if this was a car, money, shoes, jewelry, coffee table, etc. scenario.  That would be a separate discussion.  I also wasn't answering for just any pictures.  I answered for photos of a shared vacation scenario only.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: snowdragon on December 31, 2012, 10:18:14 AM
I wonder if the people who would think less of someone who didn't share, would feel the same about anything else that person owned.

I specifically answered regarding the photos.  I wasn't thinking about any hypothetical what if this was a car, money, shoes, jewelry, coffee table, etc. scenario.  That would be a separate discussion.  I also wasn't answering for just any pictures.  I answered for photos of a shared vacation scenario only.

To me the concept is the same. This  is someone else's property, you  ( general through out) feel you have some sort of right to it and that they are somehow wrong for not forking over on "demand" - so much so that failure to do so will color your opinion of them.  So do they have to acquiesce to everything someone wants or do they have the right to refuse somethings - where does the line lie. And why does your physical presence have anything to do with their right to not share their own property?  You did not take the pictures so why should you be entitled to them? 
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: TurtleDove on December 31, 2012, 10:24:18 AM
I think expanding this to hypotheticals of anything other than photos of a shared vacation is pointless. My take on this, as others have stated, is based specifically on photographs of a shared vacation. To me, it seems really odd that the OP won't share her photos with her friend. Of course she is within her "rights" not to share and the friend is not "entitled" to anything. As I understood this situation, the OP is not a professional photographer and does not intend to sell the photos. Obviously, not everyone agrees but I would be offended if I were the friend, especially because the OP apparently never explained she was not willing to share. In my circles, it is assumed photos will be shared.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: onyonryngs on December 31, 2012, 10:25:38 AM
I wonder if the people who would think less of someone who didn't share, would feel the same about anything else that person owned.

I specifically answered regarding the photos.  I wasn't thinking about any hypothetical what if this was a car, money, shoes, jewelry, coffee table, etc. scenario.  That would be a separate discussion.  I also wasn't answering for just any pictures.  I answered for photos of a shared vacation scenario only.

To me the concept is the same. This  is someone else's property, you  ( general through out) feel you have some sort of right to it and that they are somehow wrong for not forking over on "demand" - so much so that failure to do so will color your opinion of them.  So do they have to acquiesce to everything someone wants or do they have the right to refuse somethings - where does the line lie. And why does your physical presence have anything to do with their right to not share their own property?  You did not take the pictures so why should you be entitled to them?

For me, personally, I'm not going on a vacation with someone who I wouldn't want to share my photos with.  I'd probably tell them that I needed to go through and edit, etc. before sending them any copies - you don't need to give them all.  That's my personal view of the situation. 
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: Surianne on December 31, 2012, 10:30:09 AM
And why does your physical presence have anything to do with their right to not share their own property?  You did not take the pictures so why should you be entitled to them? 

Snowdragon, I think I mentioned this upthread (so apologies if I'm repeating too much), but the way I see it is on a shared vacation, both parties have different skills that they contribute. 

I'm not a great photographer -- I try, but usually my friend is better than me, and they seem to enjoy it more, so the general assumption is that I'll share their photos, and they're also welcome to any decent ones I managed.  (And for me, I have no interest of photos with me in them, so the OP sharing only those wouldn't have been useful to me -- I like reminders of the pretty natural things we saw!)

I contribute other things, however: I'm good at reading maps, so I'm usually "in charge" of us not getting lost.  I'm good at math, so I'm "in charge" of figuring out exchange rates and tips.  It's just assumed that I'll take care of these things, since I'm the one with those talents.  Both map-reading and math skills take time and education to develop as well; just because they're not artistic doesn't make them less valuable. 

Another example: In my last trip, my friend was a terrible packer, so I let her put a bunch of extra stuff in my bag since we found out at the airport that hers was over the weight limit and would have incurred an additional $100+ charge.  I could have just let her pay the $100 charge without offering up my space, but she was my friend, so why would I do that? 

If the trip is like that, with both friends contributing in different areas, I see the sharing as more naturally assumed.  It's very different than asking for photos from a trip the OP went on by herself, that the friend didn't partake in or contribute to.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: ettiquit on December 31, 2012, 10:33:28 AM
I haven't read the whole thread yet, but I completely understand the OP's viewpoint.

I am an amateur photographer and have an expensive camera and some special lighting equipment.  When I take this camera on vacations, it's for two purposes:

1.  Fun vacation shots
2.  Shots that may end up in my photography collection that I would consider to be my art.

I vet the pictures afterwards and share anything that I'm not planning on putting in my collection.

It's not "just a picture" to photography enthusiasts.  It's art.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: Firecat on December 31, 2012, 10:35:22 AM
I think expanding this to hypotheticals of anything other than photos of a shared vacation is pointless. My take on this, as others have stated, is based specifically on photographs of a shared vacation. To me, it seems really odd that the OP won't share her photos with her friend. Of course she is within her "rights" not to share and the friend is not "entitled" to anything. As I understood this situation, the OP is not a professional photographer and does not intend to sell the photos. Obviously, not everyone agrees but I would be offended if I were the friend, especially because the OP apparently never explained she was not willing to share. In my circles, it is assumed photos will be shared.

And that's in your circle. It's not an assumption in mine, for example.

Honestly, this whole thing is part of what really troubles me about people sometimes - if someone is a friend, wouldn't you (general you, not just you specifically, Turtledove) consider giving them the benefit of the doubt and maybe either figure that their point of view is different from yours on this particular subject, and maybe they have their reasons?

Maybe even ask them what those reasons are before pulling back from the friendship? Especially if the person has been kind and supportive, even generous, otherwise? If such things have been "just assumed" in the past for you, for a friend maybe it's worth re-examining some of those assumptions...which can occasionally be an interesting exercise, if nothing else? Yes, sometimes it's uncomfortable or even embarrassing when I realize that someone I care about thinks or feels very differently about a seemingly-ordinary, even minor, issue than I do...but it can be enlightening, too.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: GreenHall on December 31, 2012, 10:41:19 AM
I generally bring a camera on trips, special events, etc. (and often remember to bring the charger on vacation too). 
...and that is generally as close as I get to taking pictures.  I just don't wind up digging the camera out, and actually taking pictures (I get upset that what I see and what the camera sees don't match up). 
 On the other hand if I was traipsing around on vacation/day trip with someone who kept pausing to do photography (as opposed to my snapshots), I would take that opportunity to snap some pics too. 

So I feel the friend had the opportunity to have the fun vacation pics, if he had wanted to take them.  He had a camera available (even a bulky, not as high quality one as the iPad has).  He either chose not to take the memory pics, or was assuming the entire time that he would get a copy of the OPs.  Without I any way helping with equipmen, or communicating that he expected pics.

Depending on the friends general friendship culture, i can see giving a small pass for having the expectation. 
Everything after the first request (and generous receipt of pics of him) I would call rude on his part.

(also wow did I get wordy, and I hope I'm remembering gender correctly)
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: snowdragon on December 31, 2012, 10:46:10 AM
Those things may be valuable...but they may not be something the photographer is willing to "exchange" for their work. There is an assumption here that the photographer has to give over their work, because the asker wants them - possibly because the asker did something that the asker deems a fair trade - where in all this does the photographer have any right to determine the course of their own work.  Just because it's a shared trip does not mean anyone has to share their work. 
  Honestly- just because you would offer up space, or your ability to do currency exchanges - does not mean everyone wants to/has to give over what you want them too.  I would not have offered up my space...that would mean I have less space to bring back what I want to bring back, and I pack light especially so I can bring back more stuff.  ( I have actually bought and shipped clothes home in order to save airplane space) - but the person who took the pictures gets to decide what is fair compensation, or even if they want to exchange services - not other travelers.
 
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: ettiquit on December 31, 2012, 10:50:28 AM
Years ago I went on a vacation with very close friends.  I wasn't that into photography yet and only had a semi-good camera.  I took a bunch of pics as did one other person in our party.  We both shared all of our photos (as was expected), but there was one shot that I took that turned out really, really well.  It's what sparked my interest in photography.  I didn't want to include the picture in the ones I shared but I wasn't sure why, so I did.  No dramatic ending to that story, but future "great" shots will be shown to people, not shared.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: Firecat on December 31, 2012, 10:52:09 AM
Those things may be valuable...but they may not be something the photographer is willing to "exchange" for their work. There is an assumption here that the photographer has to give over their work, because the asker wants them - possibly because the asker did something that the asker deems a fair trade - where in all this does the photographer have any right to determine the course of their own work.  Just because it's a shared trip does not mean anyone has to share their work. 
  Honestly- just because you would offer up space, or your ability to do currency exchanges - does not mean everyone wants to/has to give over what you want them too.  I would not have offered up my space...that would mean I have less space to bring back what I want to bring back, and I pack light especially so I can bring back more stuff.  ( I have actually bought and shipped clothes home in order to save airplane space) - but the person who took the pictures gets to decide what is fair compensation, or even if they want to exchange services - not other travelers.
 

Thank you, snowdragon; I was trying to put my finger on what bothered me about that specific scenario, and you stated it really well. I don't see anything wrong with that kind of exchange, provided that it's discussed up front and all involved parties are ok with it. But maybe the photographer friend would rather, for example, buy their friend's lunch during the trip, or buy the friend a nice gift, or pay the friend's admission to a special event during the trip, or something like that. Or maybe they'd be fine sharing pictures or at least providing a nice selection of photos. But it shouldn't, in my opinion, be assumed - it should be talked about up front, and neither party should be pressured.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: miranova on December 31, 2012, 11:09:17 AM
I have read every post and I still don't get it.  This is a friend that you were close enough to travel with.  A lot of the responses are about strangers, acquaintences, and family that take advantage or want professional services for free.  I don't see how that applies here.  Just like I'd drive a close friend to the airport or babysit for them or tutor their children, I wouldn't think twice about sharing any and all photos/recipes/ or other special skills with them.  I wouldn't do these things for acquaintances or people who take advantage.  I assume this is a reciprocal friendship where your friend does favors for you as well sometimes?

I don't understand the insistence that the OP's view is not "wrong".  No one is arguing right or wrong or that she has some kind of actual obligation to share the photos.  But just as OP is entitled to keep the photos, her friend is entitled to find it odd.  Just as I don't "have to" drive my friend to the airport, my friend can find it odd if I just flat out say no with no reason given when she has done favors for me in the past.  This is a relationship, not a court of law.  Nobody has to do anything, but I think it's a normal request among friends who have just traveled together.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: PastryGoddess on December 31, 2012, 11:15:17 AM
OP has said that her friend has a habit of sharing pictures that other people have taken as HIS.  Based on this and the utterly rude way he went about "requesting" her pictures, what she did makes sense.

I don't think she would have posted if
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: Firecat on December 31, 2012, 11:16:14 AM
I have read every post and I still don't get it.  This is a friend that you were close enough to travel with.  A lot of the responses are about strangers, acquaintences, and family that take advantage or want professional services for free.  I don't see how that applies here.  Just like I'd drive a close friend to the airport or babysit for them or tutor their children, I wouldn't think twice about sharing any and all photos/recipes/ or other special skills with them.  I wouldn't do these things for acquaintances or people who take advantage.  I assume this is a reciprocal friendship where your friend does favors for you as well sometimes?

I don't understand the insistence that the OP's view is not "wrong".  No one is arguing right or wrong or that she has some kind of actual obligation to share the photos.  But just as OP is entitled to keep the photos, her friend is entitled to find it odd.  Just as I don't "have to" drive my friend to the airport, my friend can find it odd if I just flat out say no with no reason given when she has done favors for me in the past.  This is a relationship, not a court of law.  Nobody has to do anything, but I think it's a normal request among friends who have just traveled together.

You think it's normal...not everyone does. And as I said above, if someone is a friend, and (as you said) has done favors for you in the past, but says no to this, is it not worth some examination of your underlying assumptions, and thinking that perhaps your friend simply has a different point of view on this topic than you do?
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: Amara on December 31, 2012, 11:22:02 AM
Here's a scenario. My friend and I are at the Eiffel Tower. She shoots a bunch of pictures with her iPhone. I shoot some pictures too. All standard travel stuff, pretty, interesting but nothing worthy of being called art.

We then separate because she wants to wander in gift shops and such. I want to just wander about, seeing if there is anything that might make a special photograph. And I find one! (I actually did this, and got a very unusual and special shot.) So I make the image rather than just taking another picture. I set it up. I wait for the right moment.

I come home and that shot, out of many, turns out to be of near-professional quality. I am encouraged by a pro I know to enter it into a contest. I don't do that but I do blow it up and frame it.

Now, my friend has all her own pictures to remember the day and the place. I might give her one or two of mine, but there is no way I am going to share *this* image. It is a piece of art I created, not just a picture.

What disturbs me most about this discussion is the sense that the art the OP shot should be shared as easily as the pictures she took. There's a massive difference, and it took the OP a lot of time and money to develop her eye so that she has the ability to recognize a scene that can be turned into art. The difference between an artistic image and a photograph can be compared to the difference between a fine English cheddar and Velveta. Nothing wrong with either, but they are not the same thing at all.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: TurtleDove on December 31, 2012, 11:29:11 AM
POD to miranova.  I think some posters are addressing this as though there is a "right" and "wrong" answer.  What some of us are saying is that the OP can do whatever she wants with her photos for whatever reason.  She cannot, however, expect that not sharing will be well received.  As some of us have stated, unless this was addressed before hand, it comes across as borderline rude to me.  I take a lot of photos, and I think a lot of them turn out really well, especially of my daughter.  I share them with everyone because I think they are great photos!  I don't care whether people think, "Wow, TurtleDove is an amazing photographer."  That's not the point to me - the point is to enjoy the image.  I think what rubs me the wrong way in the OP is that she seems to want to be praised or something for the images she shoots, and that, to me, is weird on a trip with a friend. For me, I would want to share my best shots because it would be about the memory.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: Surianne on December 31, 2012, 11:34:54 AM
Those things may be valuable...but they may not be something the photographer is willing to "exchange" for their work. There is an assumption here that the photographer has to give over their work, because the asker wants them - possibly because the asker did something that the asker deems a fair trade - where in all this does the photographer have any right to determine the course of their own work.  Just because it's a shared trip does not mean anyone has to share their work. 
  Honestly- just because you would offer up space, or your ability to do currency exchanges - does not mean everyone wants to/has to give over what you want them too.  I would not have offered up my space...that would mean I have less space to bring back what I want to bring back, and I pack light especially so I can bring back more stuff.  ( I have actually bought and shipped clothes home in order to save airplane space) - but the person who took the pictures gets to decide what is fair compensation, or even if they want to exchange services - not other travelers.
 

Is this in reply to me?  It's a few posts down so I'm not sure...if so, I think something got lost in the communcation here. 

I absolutely don't see doing favours and contributing to the enjoyment of a trip as "exchanging services" or "fair compensation."  When I let my friend have space in my bag rather than making her incur the $100 fee, I did it because she's my friend, and I knew because of how I pack that I had plenty of space to offer.  Ditto when I helped her with math.  Not because I thought it bought me her photos later.  I assumed she'd share her photos because she's my friend and that's generally how it goes when I travel with friends.

I'm simply explaining the point of view that going on a trip is often about sharing different things that we're good at.   So I can see why the OP's friend would be surprised and a bit dismayed. 

Does that mean the OP *has* to give the friend the photos?  Of course not; but I can see why the friend would be surprised, and why other posters have said it would change how they looked at the friendship, at least in terms of travelling.  I can also see why the OP would be dismayed at the friend demanding rather than asking nicely. 
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: miranova on December 31, 2012, 11:39:19 AM
POD to miranova.  I think some posters are addressing this as though there is a "right" and "wrong" answer.  What some of us are saying is that the OP can do whatever she wants with her photos for whatever reason.  She cannot, however, expect that not sharing will be well received. 

Exactly.  If it's that important to you to keep the photos to yourself, to the point that you are willing to have your friend think you are being a bit selfish, then you need to own that.  You can't decide that since your choice to keep the photos is not "wrong" that everyone has to like it or find it understandable and not change their opinion of you.   

If in fact the friend has a history of passing off the OP's photos as his own, that certainly makes it more understandable but if even after that breach of trust you are still close enough to travel with a him, are you not close enough to say "I'd rather not give you these since you posted them last time without crediting me".  The hemming and hawing I just don't get.  If you are going to say no, own it.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: miranova on December 31, 2012, 11:40:43 AM
Those things may be valuable...but they may not be something the photographer is willing to "exchange" for their work. There is an assumption here that the photographer has to give over their work, because the asker wants them - possibly because the asker did something that the asker deems a fair trade - where in all this does the photographer have any right to determine the course of their own work.  Just because it's a shared trip does not mean anyone has to share their work. 
  Honestly- just because you would offer up space, or your ability to do currency exchanges - does not mean everyone wants to/has to give over what you want them too.  I would not have offered up my space...that would mean I have less space to bring back what I want to bring back, and I pack light especially so I can bring back more stuff.  ( I have actually bought and shipped clothes home in order to save airplane space) - but the person who took the pictures gets to decide what is fair compensation, or even if they want to exchange services - not other travelers.
 


I absolutely don't see doing favours and contributing to the enjoyment of a trip as "exchanging services" or "fair compensation."  When I let my friend have space in my bag rather than making her incur the $100 fee, I did it because she's my friend, and I knew because of how I pack that I had plenty of space to offer.  Ditto when I helped her with math.  Not because I thought it bought me her photos later.  I assumed she'd share her photos because she's my friend and that's generally how it goes when I travel with friends.

 

Agree.  This is where I am coming from.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: JoieGirl7 on December 31, 2012, 12:01:19 PM
Where does "sharing" enter into this?  He never asked her to "share."  He demanded that she upload all her pictures onto his ipad.  That's unreasonable.

People keep saying that if she was close enough to this person to vacation wtih them then why wouldnt she share her pictures.  Well, presumably this guy was close enough to vacation wtih her, so why wouldn't he be content to wait until she had a chance to go through her pictures, sort them and decide what she wanted to share?

Sharing oictures on FB or via email or printed out is one thing.  This guy wanted all the raw pictures off her memory card.  That's not "sharing."

Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: TOLady on December 31, 2012, 12:02:31 PM
This kind of question is becoming more prevelent on Facebook. Just recently, a friend of mine who travels frequently and takes awesome photos, came back from a trip and posted several of them on her facebook page. They are truly stunning!

I had sent her a PM asking if I could select a few and use for my screensaver and she was more than happy to let me do that. She was astonished how many people just took them and posted them on their own pages without the proper crediting.

Shortly after, she sent out a FB message informing everyone that anyone using her photos without her permission were going to be blocked and that she was no longer going to post them.

Your photos - your call!

Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: Firecat on December 31, 2012, 12:07:40 PM
POD to miranova.  I think some posters are addressing this as though there is a "right" and "wrong" answer.  What some of us are saying is that the OP can do whatever she wants with her photos for whatever reason.  She cannot, however, expect that not sharing will be well received.  As some of us have stated, unless this was addressed before hand, it comes across as borderline rude to me.  I take a lot of photos, and I think a lot of them turn out really well, especially of my daughter.  I share them with everyone because I think they are great photos!  I don't care whether people think, "Wow, TurtleDove is an amazing photographer."  That's not the point to me - the point is to enjoy the image.  I think what rubs me the wrong way in the OP is that she seems to want to be praised or something for the images she shoots, and that, to me, is weird on a trip with a friend. For me, I would want to share my best shots because it would be about the memory.

Re: the bolded - if it's borderline rude of the OP not to address it beforehand, why is it not also borderline rude of her friend?
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: squeakers on December 31, 2012, 12:08:12 PM
I take a picture, I draw a picture, I carve a piece of chocolate into Lady Godiva. Do I have to give any of those to you just because you are my friend?

I'm a doctor.. do I have to diagnose you just because you are my friend?

I'm a hairdresser .. do I have to style your hair just because you are my friend?

I'm a mechanic.. do I have to fix your car for you just because you are my friend?

All of the above take skills and some have more artistry involved (think plastic surgeon vs general practitioner) .. shouldn't the one with the skills or artistry get to decide what fruit of their passion gets shared?

OP was nice enough to share out photos friend was in.. much like a hair dresser friend might suggest a different cut/color.  Friend was being an SS for wanting all the photos .. much like wanting your lawyer friend to read your off the 'net will and make sure it is accurate and oh, by the way, can you sue my friend the mechanic for not changing my tires for me for free?
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: ettiquit on December 31, 2012, 12:09:56 PM
POD to miranova.  I think some posters are addressing this as though there is a "right" and "wrong" answer.  What some of us are saying is that the OP can do whatever she wants with her photos for whatever reason.  She cannot, however, expect that not sharing will be well received.  As some of us have stated, unless this was addressed before hand, it comes across as borderline rude to me.  I take a lot of photos, and I think a lot of them turn out really well, especially of my daughter.  I share them with everyone because I think they are great photos!  I don't care whether people think, "Wow, TurtleDove is an amazing photographer."  That's not the point to me - the point is to enjoy the image.  I think what rubs me the wrong way in the OP is that she seems to want to be praised or something for the images she shoots, and that, to me, is weird on a trip with a friend. For me, I would want to share my best shots because it would be about the memory.

But the OP does care about being an amazing photographer.  The point of her pictures (particularly the ones she spends time setting up) is not just so other people can enjoy her work.  It's her art.  This would be like a sketch artist going to the park with a friend, sketching a picture of some trees and then the friend saying "Gimme".

I can't imagine any of my friends not understanding that.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: Firecat on December 31, 2012, 12:11:39 PM
I have read every post and I still don't get it.  This is a friend that you were close enough to travel with.  A lot of the responses are about strangers, acquaintences, and family that take advantage or want professional services for free.  I don't see how that applies here.  Just like I'd drive a close friend to the airport or babysit for them or tutor their children, I wouldn't think twice about sharing any and all photos/recipes/ or other special skills with them.  I wouldn't do these things for acquaintances or people who take advantage.  I assume this is a reciprocal friendship where your friend does favors for you as well sometimes?

I don't understand the insistence that the OP's view is not "wrong".  No one is arguing right or wrong or that she has some kind of actual obligation to share the photos.  But just as OP is entitled to keep the photos, her friend is entitled to find it odd.  Just as I don't "have to" drive my friend to the airport, my friend can find it odd if I just flat out say no with no reason given when she has done favors for me in the past.  This is a relationship, not a court of law.  Nobody has to do anything, but I think it's a normal request among friends who have just traveled together.

The friend had already misused the OP's pictures in the past, by taking credit for them when he didn't take them. It's entirely up to the OP to continue to travel with him if she wishes, but that doesn't mean she needs to re-open herself up to that specific behavior again, either. Now, I do think she should have told him on the spot that she wasn't sharing because of that, but I can see being a bit flustered by the presumptuous "here, put all those on my iPad" without even a "please" or "thank you" attached.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: miranova on December 31, 2012, 12:13:09 PM
You don't have to do anything.  Of course you are allowed to withhold whatever you like.  And your friend is allowed to have an opinion about it.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: Firecat on December 31, 2012, 12:14:14 PM
You don't have to do anything.  Of course you are allowed to withhold whatever you like.  And your friend is allowed to have an opinion about it.

And the friend's history of taking credit for the OP's pictures doesn't enter into it at all for you? Or is the OP not allowed to have an opinion about that?
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: ettiquit on December 31, 2012, 12:14:58 PM
I wonder if my viewpoint is affected by the fact that I come from a family of artists (music, painting, charcoal, photography, etc.).  I could deny my mom a picture I took with the explanation that this one is "art" and she would totally get it. 
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: miranova on December 31, 2012, 12:22:48 PM
Where does "sharing" enter into this?.....

Sharing oictures on FB or via email or printed out is one thing.  This guy wanted all the raw pictures off her memory card.  That's not "sharing."

I don't see how any other word would apply since she still would have the photos herself as well.  How is it NOT sharing?
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: miranova on December 31, 2012, 12:25:01 PM
You don't have to do anything.  Of course you are allowed to withhold whatever you like.  And your friend is allowed to have an opinion about it.

And the friend's history of taking credit for the OP's pictures doesn't enter into it at all for you? Or is the OP not allowed to have an opinion about that?

I know it's a long thread but I did actually already address this already.  I said I found it more understandable to withhold the photos if friend has a history of taking credit for them, but that she should just say so instead of hemming and hawing.  Most of my comments are about the more broad question of whether or not this is a reasonable request in general; many posters are extrapolating to other situations as well so it stopped being about this one particular situation several pages ago I think.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: gramma dishes on December 31, 2012, 12:25:16 PM
Sharing photos is one thing.  In that case the photographer sees her own work first, eliminates those that don't meet her standards, makes a couple of minor alterations to a few others and then keeps the rest 'as is'.  She has control over them from shutter click to final product.  She did share (immediately) the pictures that had her friend in them, but hadn't yet had time to work with the others.   There is no doubt that had he asked her to share with him, she would have been happy to send him some of them.  That's "sharing".

What he wanted was something entirely different.  He was asking her to download HER work onto HIS device.  No way.  That's not sharing.  That's demanding first dibs at something even she hadn't had time to look at yet on her own computer.  He simply wanted and expected her to automatically "gift" him with the fruits of all her hard work and the energy and expertise she had put into it.

As I said in my first post on this thread, there are several really good, small, lightweight cameras are out there and they don't cost that much.  He could have and should have taken his own pictures instead of demanding hers!
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: TylerBelle on December 31, 2012, 01:09:40 PM
I can understand sharing some of the pictures, but I don't know if I'd share them all. For I'd like to have some which I had only the one-of-a-kind of, no matter what the other person would have planned to do with them. And I wouldn't be too thrilled if the other person wasn't going to reciprocate in sharing with me. Because if I shared mine with him, it would mean he'd have everything (his originals & my duplicated ones), and I'd only have mine (now duplicated).

So, no, OP, I don't think you were wrong, rude or petty in your actions. You shared with your traveling companion, and if he wanted more, then surely he could enjoy what he took with his own device.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: CakeEater on December 31, 2012, 03:18:36 PM
I think some posters aren't seeing the difference between snapshots taken to remember a shared holiday and photographic art created while on a shared holiday. The former, I agree, should normally be shared between the friends holidaying together. The latter shouldn't even be asked for, let alone demanded.

Those two types of photos aren't in the same category, and I think that the OP should be able to refuse the give those images over without being seen as selfish, and, in fact, should think less of her friend for requesting them.

What if, instead of photos, the OP had gone with her friend to a park, and she had painted a watercolour scene while her friend ate lunch. Does he have the right to demand that he scan that image and make a print for his own wall? I don't believe artist in that case would be under any obligation to 'share' their work either.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: citadelle on December 31, 2012, 03:25:40 PM
Sounds like something that should be discussed at the outset of the trip. OP's friend could have said, "I don't plan to tske many pics. Do you mind sharing yours?"

I must admit, though, that to me, under those circumstances (frirndship, traveling together, etc.) an answer of "no" or "only the ones that aren't the best" would leave me pretty cold. Am I supposed to offer to purchase the good ones?

To me, it isn't like a haircut, legal advice, etc.  Photos can be and are easily shared. I get the art aspect, but is art supposed to be hoarded by the artist? I know that the answer is yes for some, and of course that is their right, but I would be very put off by this position from a good friend.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: GrammarNerd on December 31, 2012, 03:34:03 PM
I've already posted, but I guess the assumption by the 'friend' is what gets me.  He just assumed that he could have her pictures.  And he didn't make any effort to take any of his own pictures.  And because of that assumption, it's more like he was treating her as his personal, unpaid photography servant. 

And once again, the OP sacrificed to get those good shots.  She sacrificed souvenirs, time, and energy lugging all of the big equipment with her.  What did the friend sacrifice?   And the OP DID share with her friend.  Just not *everything*.

I'd like to know how the friend was when the OP was taking all of these pictures.  Did he compliment her and encourage her (not rah-rah, but 'I bet that shot will be great!' type of comments), or did he whine about her taking a few extra minutes to get another shot, or make fun of her big camera bag? (Yes, this has happened to me). 
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: CakeEater on December 31, 2012, 04:15:25 PM
Sounds like something that should be discussed at the outset of the trip. OP's friend could have said, "I don't plan to tske many pics. Do you mind sharing yours?"

I must admit, though, that to me, under those circumstances (frirndship, traveling together, etc.) an answer of "no" or "only the ones that aren't the best" would leave me pretty cold. Am I supposed to offer to purchase the good ones?

To me, it isn't like a haircut, legal advice, etc.  Photos can be and are easily shared. I get the art aspect, but is art supposed to be hoarded by the artist? I know that the answer is yes for some, and of course that is their right, but I would be very put off by this position from a good friend.

Why does the fact that it's technologically easy to give him her photos mean that she should? Should an author hand over the manuscript to their latest novel because it's easy to attach it to an email?

It's the person who creates the art who gets to decide whether it's hoarded, shared, or sold for profit. Why is a photographer expected not to 'hoard' their own artwork, like a painter would, just because it's easy to attach a cord to their camera and give their images to someone else these days? Would you consider it 'hoarding' for someone to paint a picture and hang it on their own wall? And to refuse to allow someone to take a photograph and make a print for their own wall? I don't see the difference.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: citadelle on December 31, 2012, 04:49:38 PM

Why does the fact that it's technologically easy to give him her photos mean that she should? Should an author hand over the manuscript to their latest novel because it's easy to attach it to an email?

It's the person who creates the art who gets to decide whether it's hoarded, shared, or sold for profit. Why is a photographer expected not to 'hoard' their own artwork, like a painter would, just because it's easy to attach a cord to their camera and give their images to someone else these days? Would you consider it 'hoarding' for someone to paint a picture and hang it on their own wall? And to refuse to allow someone to take a photograph and make a print for their own wall? I don't see the difference.

I am not friends with any professional photographer. If my friend started calling her photos art, I would be surprised.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: GeauxTigers on December 31, 2012, 05:00:57 PM
(Full-frame Nikon shooter here.)

Quote
Send him all 650 photos. In RAW format. Including all of of the bad angles, blurred shots, over and under-exposed shots, and the 30 shots of the same scene with slightly different camera settings. Without any post processing.   

This.  >:D Watch those RAW files eat up his iPad's memory with a quickness. Even better if they were shot with 24 MP or larger resolution. The Nikon D800 is 36MP  :o and boy oh boy those files are HUGE. 

Even better (this takes a little time, though) - send him a contact sheet of low-resolution PDFs that he can't right-click on.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: bloo on December 31, 2012, 05:04:16 PM
Sounds like something that should be discussed at the outset of the trip. OP's friend could have said, "I don't plan to tske many pics. Do you mind sharing yours?"

I must admit, though, that to me, under those circumstances (frirndship, traveling together, etc.) an answer of "no" or "only the ones that aren't the best" would leave me pretty cold. Am I supposed to offer to purchase the good ones?

To me, it isn't like a haircut, legal advice, etc.  Photos can be and are easily shared. I get the art aspect, but is art supposed to be hoarded by the artist? I know that the answer is yes for some, and of course that is their right, but I would be very put off by this position from a good friend.

Huh? You think that for someone to keep what they created and own is hoarding?
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: snowdragon on December 31, 2012, 05:07:51 PM
It does not matter if the photographer is a professional - it's still their property we are talking about.  Just because you are my travel companion does not mean you have any right to my property.  That level of entitlement would end my friendship with anyone who had it. 
 
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: citadelle on December 31, 2012, 05:09:42 PM

Huh? You think that for someone to keep what they created and own is hoarding?

No, I think an average person keeping the best vacation shots for themselves is hoardish. As I mentioned, if a friend of mine referred to herself as an artist, I would be amused to say the least.

I am not referring to the OP, who may legitimately be an artist. Even then, though, it is curious that only the best of the shots are art, but not the ones with the friend in them.

Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: snowdragon on December 31, 2012, 05:18:15 PM

Huh? You think that for someone to keep what they created and own is hoarding?

No, I think an average person keeping the best vacation shots for themselves is hoardish
. As I mentioned, if a friend of mine referred to herself as an artist, I would be amused to say the least.

I am not referring to the OP, who may legitimately be an artist. Even then, though, it is curious that only the best of the shots are art, but not the ones with the friend in them.

The average person created and owns those shots.  I can not understand for the life of my why they are obligated to blithely hand them over to anyone in the travel party who asks.  If others wanted pretty pictures they could of have taken them - but they have no right to the property of someone else merely because they covet them.   
  Amateur or professional makes no never mind - it belongs to someone else they have the right to keep them.  And to me thinking badly of some one because they won't fork over on demand does not speak well of the demander.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: Jaelle on December 31, 2012, 05:19:35 PM

Huh? You think that for someone to keep what they created and own is hoarding?

No, I think an average person keeping the best vacation shots for themselves is hoardish. As I mentioned, if a friend of mine referred to herself as an artist, I would be amused to say the least.

I am not referring to the OP, who may legitimately be an artist. Even then, though, it is curious that only the best of the shots are art, but not the ones with the friend in them.

Art is in the eye of the beholder. To be honest, I actually find it rather rude that you would be amused at a friend's work and her pride in it. How are you the judge of what's "an average person" vs. "legitimately an artist?"

And as far as it goes, why should "an average person" not have the same rights?
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: citadelle on December 31, 2012, 05:21:23 PM
I think we are just coming at this from two different perspectives, which is fine. As long as we don't travel together  :)
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: JoieGirl7 on December 31, 2012, 05:35:40 PM
Where does "sharing" enter into this?.....

Sharing oictures on FB or via email or printed out is one thing.  This guy wanted all the raw pictures off her memory card.  That's not "sharing."

I don't see how any other word would apply since she still would have the photos herself as well.  How is it NOT sharing?

Sharing implies that there is one thing that is shared.  If she unloads her memory cards onto his computer there are now two things.
 
Many times, when someone shares something that one owns with another, they control the extent to which that thing is shared.

Essentially this guy is demanding unfettered access to her property.
 
It's the difference between someone asking you to share a recipe or two and someone asking you to give them your entire recipe box so that they can go through it and copy the whole thing for their own use.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: CakeEater on December 31, 2012, 05:38:22 PM

Why does the fact that it's technologically easy to give him her photos mean that she should? Should an author hand over the manuscript to their latest novel because it's easy to attach it to an email?

It's the person who creates the art who gets to decide whether it's hoarded, shared, or sold for profit. Why is a photographer expected not to 'hoard' their own artwork, like a painter would, just because it's easy to attach a cord to their camera and give their images to someone else these days? Would you consider it 'hoarding' for someone to paint a picture and hang it on their own wall? And to refuse to allow someone to take a photograph and make a print for their own wall? I don't see the difference.

I am not friends with any professional photographer. If my friend started calling her photos art, I would be surprised.

But the OP is planning to enlarge, frame and hang her photos, and describes them as 'pretty amazing'. Just because you aren't friends with anyone who would call their photos art (I'm not either), doesn't mean that there aren't photographers who are artists.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: bloo on December 31, 2012, 05:53:03 PM

Huh? You think that for someone to keep what they created and own is hoarding?

No, I think an average person keeping the best vacation shots for themselves is hoardish. As I mentioned, if a friend of mine referred to herself as an artist, I would be amused to say the least.

I am not referring to the OP, who may legitimately be an artist. Even then, though, it is curious that only the best of the shots are art, but not the ones with the friend in them.

Whether the photo is 'art' or not is irrelevant. The photos, even the crappy ones, belong to the OP. They're not public property or up for grabs by others who are in proximity to them being shot. People can feel proprietary interest in what is theirs. If my DH takes 600-700 shots of an event, we are NOT just giving them away to anyone who wants them.

We might share them after:

1) we go through them and delete bad shots
2) keep ones for ourselves (yes even the best ones)
3) give particular ones to particular people (yes even the best ones)
4) specify they're not to be shared on a social network.

That DH has a $2K camera for this is irrelevant. Their OUR pictures. To do with as we please or to leave on a dusty memory card and forget about. Friends and family may ask (and likely we would share) but no one is entitled to them and that doesn't make us hoarders if we choose not to.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: citadelle on December 31, 2012, 06:03:29 PM
If I buy a meal and don't finish it, someone else at my table may want to do so. Snce I paid for the meal, I can say no, it is my right, but to do so would be pointless and, I would say, hoardish (I know that is not actually a word). It is my meal to do with as I please, but I might end up a lonely diner.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: bloo on December 31, 2012, 06:07:06 PM
If I buy a meal and don't finish it, someone else at my table may want to do so. Snce I paid for the meal, I can say no, it is my right, but to do so would be pointless and, I would say, hoardish (I know that is not actually a word). It is my meal to do with as I please, but I might end up a lonely diner.

It is not wrong to say 'yes'. It is also not wrong to say 'no'. You do not get to decide that it is 'pointless' for me to say 'no'. I might want the leftovers. It's not 'hoardish*' to do so.


*This is the Internet. If we use it enough times it can become a real word!
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: miranova on December 31, 2012, 06:09:11 PM
The explanations keep changing and are getting confusing.

First, we just don't understand because we don't know the difference between regular travel photos and art. 
(pretty interesting assumption).
Then, it doesn't matter whether or not it's art because anyone has the right to keep their own property.

Both of which still miss the fact that no one is suggesting that the photos be taken by force.  The photographer is always allowed to say no.  And the travel companion is allowed to think that that is a bit odd. 

In fact, the only thing being stated in this thread on this side of it is that certain people would find the refusal odd.  Nothing more.  Yet words like "not obligated, not entitled, my property, my rights, my art" etc keep getting thrown around as if anyone is even remotely debating a photographer's right to keep their photos.  We all agree that it is your property and you can keep it. 

I think the only thing the travel companion did wrong was to expect the photos without asking nicely first.  I think anytime someone asks for something they do so with an expectation of at least possibly getting a yes, otherwise we would never ask anyone for anything!  So I don't think an expectation of probably getting a yes is wrong or "entitled", but I do think asking nicely is required.  Of course, he should take no for an answer and not push.  But I can understand why this didn't go down well, since the OP herself admits that she had a hard time giving a straight answer.  When someone won't give a straight yes or no answer, it is frustrating for everyone involved.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: snowdragon on December 31, 2012, 06:10:56 PM
If I buy a meal and don't finish it, someone else at my table may want to do so. Snce I paid for the meal, I can say no, it is my right, but to do so would be pointless and, I would say, hoardish (I know that is not actually a word). It is my meal to do with as I please, but I might end up a lonely diner.

You can't BE serious???? Now  even left over is not the property of the owner but must be given to whom ever wants it at the table???? Wow.  Frankly if I have no rights to my own property I would be happier and less resentful without friends like that.   but if my friends are going to think less of me because I want to keep my property rather than give it anyone who feels entitled to it - they are not my friends, really.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: miranova on December 31, 2012, 06:12:00 PM
If I buy a meal and don't finish it, someone else at my table may want to do so. Snce I paid for the meal, I can say no, it is my right, but to do so would be pointless and, I would say, hoardish (I know that is not actually a word). It is my meal to do with as I please, but I might end up a lonely diner.

It is not wrong to say 'yes'. It is also not wrong to say 'no'. You do not get to decide that it is 'pointless' for me to say 'no'.

Well....it may be semantics but I think people "decide" things like this all the time in their heads.  People make judgements about people based on their behaviors.  "Pointless" is by nature a subjective term, and a matter of opinion.  So yes you can keep your food (and I think the better analogy to this case would be without giving a single explanation like wanting the leftovers, since OP did not give any explanation), but you can't control what people think about you.  I think it would be rude to say anything, but thoughts can't be policed.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: LeveeWoman on December 31, 2012, 06:12:28 PM
If I buy a meal and don't finish it, someone else at my table may want to do so. Snce I paid for the meal, I can say no, it is my right, but to do so would be pointless and, I would say, hoardish (I know that is not actually a word). It is my meal to do with as I please, but I might end up a lonely diner.

I don't think this is comparable. The art work is something she produced, something over which she labored. A meal is something you buy.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: miranova on December 31, 2012, 06:12:47 PM
If I buy a meal and don't finish it, someone else at my table may want to do so. Snce I paid for the meal, I can say no, it is my right, but to do so would be pointless and, I would say, hoardish (I know that is not actually a word). It is my meal to do with as I please, but I might end up a lonely diner.

You can't BE serious???? Now  even left over is not the property of the owner but must be given to whom ever wants it at the table???? Wow.  Frankly if I have no rights to my own property I would be happier and less resentful without friends like that.   but if my friends are going to think less of me because I want to keep my property rather than give it anyone who feels entitled to it - they are not my friends, really.

Nobody said any of these things.  The hyperbole is not helping the argument. 

You can say no.  It's your property.  No one has said otherwise.  In fact, see the bolded.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: CakeEater on December 31, 2012, 06:16:25 PM
If I buy a meal and don't finish it, someone else at my table may want to do so. Snce I paid for the meal, I can say no, it is my right, but to do so would be pointless and, I would say, hoardish (I know that is not actually a word). It is my meal to do with as I please, but I might end up a lonely diner.

I would suggest that there might be reasons that someone mightn't want to share the remains of their meals. Perhaps they have a cold sore coming on they don't want to discuss at the dinner table. Perhaps they spat something back onto the plate and mixed it in, but don't want to tell you they did that. Perhaps they have OCD and must leave their plate with three bites of food left on it.

People have reasons for wanting things the way they are that might seem weird to us, but they have a right to do them, and in the absence of other hoardish* or selfish tendencies, it's best to assume that this is a difference of perspective, and not a reflection on how your friends feel about you.

*Does three people using it help with making it a real word?
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: snowdragon on December 31, 2012, 06:17:26 PM
miranova - the idea of entitlement comes in when you ( general) thinks less of someone because they don't hand over what ever it is you've (general) decided you want. Be it food, pictures, water, or whatever - just because someone wants it does not mean the owner is stingy, hoarding or any other nasty label the asker wants to attach to here.
  And no one is owned an explanation either
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: bloo on December 31, 2012, 06:18:41 PM
In fact, the only thing being stated in this thread on this side of it is that certain people would find the refusal odd.  Nothing more.  Yet words like "not obligated, not entitled, my property, my rights, my art" etc keep getting thrown around as if anyone is even remotely debating a photographer's right to keep their photos.  We all agree that it is your property and you can keep it. 

I think the only thing the travel companion did wrong was to expect the photos without asking nicely first.  I think anytime someone asks for something they do so with an expectation of at least possibly getting a yes, otherwise we would never ask anyone for anything!  So I don't think an expectation of probably getting a yes is wrong or "entitled", but I do think asking nicely is required.  Of course, he should take no for an answer and not push.  But I can understand why this didn't go down well, since the OP herself admits that she had a hard time giving a straight answer.  When someone won't give a straight yes or no answer, it is frustrating for everyone involved.

No we don't all agree.  Here several posters said they'd let the friendship cool if they couldn't have the pictures. I think I can extrapolate from that they feel entitled to them.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: miranova on December 31, 2012, 06:19:07 PM
If I buy a meal and don't finish it, someone else at my table may want to do so. Snce I paid for the meal, I can say no, it is my right, but to do so would be pointless and, I would say, hoardish (I know that is not actually a word). It is my meal to do with as I please, but I might end up a lonely diner.



People have reasons for wanting things the way they are that might seem weird to us, but they have a right to do them, and in the absence of other hoardish* or selfish tendencies, it's best to assume that this is a difference of perspective, and not a reflection on how your friends feel about you.



This is certainly true, but within the context of a friendship I think it's easier and more kind to actually give a friend some kind of explanation (talking about the photos, not the food) to avoid hurting feelings.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: miranova on December 31, 2012, 06:20:26 PM
miranova - the idea of entitlement comes in when you ( general) thinks less of someone because they don't hand over what ever it is you've (general) decided you want. Be it food, pictures, water, or whatever - just because someone wants it does not mean the owner is stingy, hoarding or any other nasty label the asker wants to attach to here.
  And no one is owned an explanation either

Your choice of wording is not exactly accurate, but we will have to agree to disagree that thinking less of someone due to their behavior makes someone "entitled".  I think the specific circumstances matter.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: snowdragon on December 31, 2012, 06:20:58 PM
If I buy a meal and don't finish it, someone else at my table may want to do so. Snce I paid for the meal, I can say no, it is my right, but to do so would be pointless and, I would say, hoardish (I know that is not actually a word). It is my meal to do with as I please, but I might end up a lonely diner.

You can't BE serious???? Now  even left over is not the property of the owner but must be given to whom ever wants it at the table???? Wow.  Frankly if I have no rights to my own property I would be happier and less resentful without friends like that.   but if my friends are going to think less of me because I want to keep my property rather than give it anyone who feels entitled to it - they are not my friends, really.

Nobody said any of these things.  The hyperbole is not helping the argument. 

You can say no.  It's your property.  No one has said otherwise.  In fact, see the bolded.

The whole idea that it's "pointless" and "hoardish" tells me that you really don't think the owner actually has that right. If they had the right, it would not be "pointless" or "hoardish", it be completely natural for them to do so.both for the food and for the photos.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: bloo on December 31, 2012, 06:22:52 PM
If I buy a meal and don't finish it, someone else at my table may want to do so. Snce I paid for the meal, I can say no, it is my right, but to do so would be pointless and, I would say, hoardish (I know that is not actually a word). It is my meal to do with as I please, but I might end up a lonely diner.



People have reasons for wanting things the way they are that might seem weird to us, but they have a right to do them, and in the absence of other hoardish* or selfish tendencies, it's best to assume that this is a difference of perspective, and not a reflection on how your friends feel about you.



This is certainly true, but within the context of a friendship I think it's easier and more kind to actually give a friend some kind of explanation (talking about the photos, not the food) to avoid hurting feelings.

I can certainly agree with that Miranova!
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: miranova on December 31, 2012, 06:23:06 PM
In fact, the only thing being stated in this thread on this side of it is that certain people would find the refusal odd.  Nothing more.  Yet words like "not obligated, not entitled, my property, my rights, my art" etc keep getting thrown around as if anyone is even remotely debating a photographer's right to keep their photos.  We all agree that it is your property and you can keep it. 

I think the only thing the travel companion did wrong was to expect the photos without asking nicely first.  I think anytime someone asks for something they do so with an expectation of at least possibly getting a yes, otherwise we would never ask anyone for anything!  So I don't think an expectation of probably getting a yes is wrong or "entitled", but I do think asking nicely is required.  Of course, he should take no for an answer and not push.  But I can understand why this didn't go down well, since the OP herself admits that she had a hard time giving a straight answer.  When someone won't give a straight yes or no answer, it is frustrating for everyone involved.

No we don't all agree.  Here several posters said they'd let the friendship cool if they couldn't have the pictures. I think I can extrapolate from that they feel entitled to them.
We are talking about how someone would FEEL if their friend refused to share travel photos with them, not whether they actually think that they have a legal right to them. The two are not even remotely the same thing and I have not seen one person argue that the photographer literally MUST hand them over.  If I have missed that, please point it out.  I don't think the exrapolating you are doing is accurate.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: miranova on December 31, 2012, 06:24:23 PM
If I buy a meal and don't finish it, someone else at my table may want to do so. Snce I paid for the meal, I can say no, it is my right, but to do so would be pointless and, I would say, hoardish (I know that is not actually a word). It is my meal to do with as I please, but I might end up a lonely diner.

You can't BE serious???? Now  even left over is not the property of the owner but must be given to whom ever wants it at the table???? Wow.  Frankly if I have no rights to my own property I would be happier and less resentful without friends like that.   but if my friends are going to think less of me because I want to keep my property rather than give it anyone who feels entitled to it - they are not my friends, really.

Nobody said any of these things.  The hyperbole is not helping the argument. 

You can say no.  It's your property.  No one has said otherwise.  In fact, see the bolded.

The whole idea that it's "pointless" and "hoardish" tells me that you really don't think the owner actually has that right. If they had the right, it would not be "pointless" or "hoardish", it be completely natural for them to do so.both for the food and for the photos.

Well first of all I wasn't the one who used those words.  Secondly I find your conclustion illogical.  I can have an opinion about someone's behavior without thinking that I own their photos.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: CakeEater on December 31, 2012, 06:25:45 PM
The explanations keep changing and are getting confusing.

First, we just don't understand because we don't know the difference between regular travel photos and art. 
(pretty interesting assumption).
Then, it doesn't matter whether or not it's art because anyone has the right to keep their own property.

Both of which still miss the fact that no one is suggesting that the photos be taken by force.  The photographer is always allowed to say no.  And the travel companion is allowed to think that that is a bit odd. 

In fact, the only thing being stated in this thread on this side of it is that certain people would find the refusal odd.  Nothing more.  Yet words like "not obligated, not entitled, my property, my rights, my art" etc keep getting thrown around as if anyone is even remotely debating a photographer's right to keep their photos.  We all agree that it is your property and you can keep it. 

I think the only thing the travel companion did wrong was to expect the photos without asking nicely first.  I think anytime someone asks for something they do so with an expectation of at least possibly getting a yes, otherwise we would never ask anyone for anything!  So I don't think an expectation of probably getting a yes is wrong or "entitled", but I do think asking nicely is required.Of course, he should take no for an answer and not push.  But I can understand why this didn't go down well, since the OP herself admits that she had a hard time giving a straight answer.  When someone won't give a straight yes or no answer, it is frustrating for everyone involved.

No-one's changing their arguments. Both arguments listed at the beginning of your post are valid.

As to your last paragraph: Asking nicely does not mean that it's OK to ask for anything. I could ask very nicely for all kinds of things that I have no right to have. In fact, I think that's rude. It puts the askee on the spot having to refuse your friend a favour and seem like the bad guy, when they shouldn't have asked in the first place.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: bloo on December 31, 2012, 06:26:45 PM
In fact, the only thing being stated in this thread on this side of it is that certain people would find the refusal odd.  Nothing more.  Yet words like "not obligated, not entitled, my property, my rights, my art" etc keep getting thrown around as if anyone is even remotely debating a photographer's right to keep their photos.  We all agree that it is your property and you can keep it. 

I think the only thing the travel companion did wrong was to expect the photos without asking nicely first.  I think anytime someone asks for something they do so with an expectation of at least possibly getting a yes, otherwise we would never ask anyone for anything!  So I don't think an expectation of probably getting a yes is wrong or "entitled", but I do think asking nicely is required.  Of course, he should take no for an answer and not push.  But I can understand why this didn't go down well, since the OP herself admits that she had a hard time giving a straight answer.  When someone won't give a straight yes or no answer, it is frustrating for everyone involved.

No we don't all agree.  Here several posters said they'd let the friendship cool if they couldn't have the pictures. I think I can extrapolate from that they feel entitled to them.
We are talking about how someone would FEEL if their friend refused to share travel photos with them, not whether they actually think that they have a legal right to them. The two are not even remotely the same thing and I have not seen one person argue that the photographer literally MUST hand them over.  If I have missed that, please point it out.  I don't think the exrapolating you are doing is accurate.

If we are talking about FEELINGS, I'm saying that some people FEEL entitled to other people's property - in this case - pictures. And if someone FEELS like letting the friendship cool because of the refusal, that - to me - is entitlement (legalities notwithstanding).
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: citadelle on December 31, 2012, 06:27:14 PM
They were my words. I believe in sharing what I have and I choose friends who do the same. You are free to choose friends using other criteria.

Thanks for those of you who have gone along with the birth of a new word!  ;D
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: snowdragon on December 31, 2012, 06:28:45 PM
In fact, the only thing being stated in this thread on this side of it is that certain people would find the refusal odd.  Nothing more.  Yet words like "not obligated, not entitled, my property, my rights, my art" etc keep getting thrown around as if anyone is even remotely debating a photographer's right to keep their photos.  We all agree that it is your property and you can keep it. 

I think the only thing the travel companion did wrong was to expect the photos without asking nicely first.  I think anytime someone asks for something they do so with an expectation of at least possibly getting a yes, otherwise we would never ask anyone for anything!  So I don't think an expectation of probably getting a yes is wrong or "entitled", but I do think asking nicely is required.  Of course, he should take no for an answer and not push.  But I can understand why this didn't go down well, since the OP herself admits that she had a hard time giving a straight answer.  When someone won't give a straight yes or no answer, it is frustrating for everyone involved.

No we don't all agree.  Here several posters said they'd let the friendship cool if they couldn't have the pictures. I think I can extrapolate from that they feel entitled to them.
We are talking about how someone would FEEL if their friend refused to share travel photos with them, not whether they actually think that they have a legal right to them. The two are not even remotely the same thing and I have not seen one person argue that the photographer literally MUST hand them over.  If I have missed that, please point it out.  I don't think the exrapolating you are doing is accurate.

If they did not feel entitled to them - there would be no need for the friendship to cool. The fact that the owner if denying them something they feel entitled to is what's going to make them back off the friendship, if the feeling that they had the right to the pictures was not present then the owner keeping the photos would not be questioned - it would be completely natural.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: CakeEater on December 31, 2012, 06:29:26 PM
In fact, the only thing being stated in this thread on this side of it is that certain people would find the refusal odd.  Nothing more.  Yet words like "not obligated, not entitled, my property, my rights, my art" etc keep getting thrown around as if anyone is even remotely debating a photographer's right to keep their photos.  We all agree that it is your property and you can keep it. 

I think the only thing the travel companion did wrong was to expect the photos without asking nicely first.  I think anytime someone asks for something they do so with an expectation of at least possibly getting a yes, otherwise we would never ask anyone for anything!  So I don't think an expectation of probably getting a yes is wrong or "entitled", but I do think asking nicely is required.  Of course, he should take no for an answer and not push.  But I can understand why this didn't go down well, since the OP herself admits that she had a hard time giving a straight answer.  When someone won't give a straight yes or no answer, it is frustrating for everyone involved.

No we don't all agree.  Here several posters said they'd let the friendship cool if they couldn't have the pictures. I think I can extrapolate from that they feel entitled to them.
We are talking about how someone would FEEL if their friend refused to share travel photos with them, not whether they actually think that they have a legal right to them. The two are not even remotely the same thing and I have not seen one person argue that the photographer literally MUST hand them over.  If I have missed that, please point it out.  I don't think the exrapolating you are doing is accurate.

No-one's talking about legal rights. The very fact of asking someone for something implies that you feel like you should be able to have it, otherwise, as someone said earlier, you wouldn't have asked.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: bloo on December 31, 2012, 06:32:45 PM
They were my words. I believe in sharing what I have and I choose friends who do the same. You are free to choose friends using other criteria.

Thanks for those of you who have gone along with the birth of a new word!  ;D

Your welcome! I'll use the new word I am sure!

But your post does make me feel that you're implying that I don't believe in sharing. I do. But I believe that I get to decide what I share. Some of my friends feel the same. Some don't. We bump up against each other. Which is the life and breath of this board. :)
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: delabela on December 31, 2012, 06:35:26 PM
I believe I contributed to the discussion on letting the friendship cool, so I'd perhaps like to explain myself - it's not "I didn't get what I want, so good bye to you," it's more a recognition that perhaps that person and I approach things differently, and that we were not as close as I assumed.  I think this is a result of me viewing the pictures as mementos of the trip, and not as an end in themselves (not that either of those is more right than the other).  I certainly don't think it makes me (or anyone else) "entitled," just as a refusal to share the pictures is not "entitled."  This doesn't extrapolate to things like leftovers, a nice scarf you happen to wear, anything I see in your house - those aren't the product of a shared experience. 
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: CakeEater on December 31, 2012, 06:41:04 PM
I believe I contributed to the discussion on letting the friendship cool, so I'd perhaps like to explain myself - it's not "I didn't get what I want, so good bye to you," it's more a recognition that perhaps that person and I approach things differently, and that we were not as close as I assumed.  I think this is a result of me viewing the pictures as mementos of the trip, and not as an end in themselves (not that either of those is more right than the other).  I certainly don't think it makes me (or anyone else) "entitled," just as a refusal to share the pictures is not "entitled."  This doesn't extrapolate to things like leftovers, a nice scarf you happen to wear, anything I see in your house - those aren't the product of a shared experience.

I really do understand your point of view. But the OP and others view photographs as artworks as well as mementos and value them accordingly. They do see them as an end in themselves.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: Two Ravens on December 31, 2012, 06:49:24 PM
In fact, the only thing being stated in this thread on this side of it is that certain people would find the refusal odd.  Nothing more.  Yet words like "not obligated, not entitled, my property, my rights, my art" etc keep getting thrown around as if anyone is even remotely debating a photographer's right to keep their photos.  We all agree that it is your property and you can keep it. 

I think the only thing the travel companion did wrong was to expect the photos without asking nicely first.  I think anytime someone asks for something they do so with an expectation of at least possibly getting a yes, otherwise we would never ask anyone for anything!  So I don't think an expectation of probably getting a yes is wrong or "entitled", but I do think asking nicely is required.  Of course, he should take no for an answer and not push.  But I can understand why this didn't go down well, since the OP herself admits that she had a hard time giving a straight answer.  When someone won't give a straight yes or no answer, it is frustrating for everyone involved.

No we don't all agree.  Here several posters said they'd let the friendship cool if they couldn't have the pictures. I think I can extrapolate from that they feel entitled to them.
We are talking about how someone would FEEL if their friend refused to share travel photos with them, not whether they actually think that they have a legal right to them. The two are not even remotely the same thing and I have not seen one person argue that the photographer literally MUST hand them over.  If I have missed that, please point it out.  I don't think the exrapolating you are doing is accurate.

No-one's talking about legal rights. The very fact of asking someone for something implies that you feel like you should be able to have it, otherwise, as someone said earlier, you wouldn't have asked.

So asking for anything = feeling entitled to have it? One should never ask for a recipe, favor, copy of a photo, anything? If I ask a friend to pass me the canapes, it means I am being entitled?

In my social circle, it would be assumed that photos of a shared event are meant to be shared as well. In fact, I think the OP should have been the one to warn her friend, "You have to take your own photos, since I am not going to be sharing mine."

(It's funny, I have a friend who almost the opposite situation happened to. One of her in-laws set herself up as the group "photographer." She actively discouraged anyone else from taking pictures. But then when she sent out the photos, she spalshed her watermark all over them, rendering them useless for the group, who wanted to use them for portraits, christmas cards, etc.)
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: Allyson on December 31, 2012, 07:03:26 PM
I don't think it's about being a generous person or entitled person or anything like that. Of course people get to decide what they share and don't, but 'get to' doesn't encompass the other person's reaction. The right is to keep your property to yourself--not to have your friend have no negative reaction. I really think it is about the specific act of photography.

A non-photographer, like me, would expect photo-sharing on a vacation. That's how everyone's done it, and I'd be very surprised if someone wanted to keep the pictures all for them. But to someone who is seriously into photography, it's obviously different. The photographer might be really generous about other things.

I guess what I'm saying is I don't think it's accurate to characterize a photo-sharer as someone who feels 'entitled' to other people's work, nor a non-photo-sharer as a selfish person who is more concerned with what's theirs than a friendship. I think it's about how photography is framed. To some people, it's equivalent of that term paper--sure, it won't cause the photographer to lose anything by sharing it, but it's their effort spent. To others, it's more equivalent of one person knowing the local language and the other not--it just makes sense to share.

Neither view is necessarily *wrong*, but since it's clear from this thread that there are two distinct schools of thought, it might be better to figure out which your travel companions are.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: Cami on December 31, 2012, 07:06:02 PM
If I buy a meal and don't finish it, someone else at my table may want to do so. Snce I paid for the meal, I can say no, it is my right, but to do so would be pointless and, I would say, hoardish (I know that is not actually a word). It is my meal to do with as I please, but I might end up a lonely diner.

People have reasons for wanting things the way they are that might seem weird to us, but they have a right to do them, and in the absence of other hoardish* or selfish tendencies, it's best to assume that this is a difference of perspective, and not a reflection on how your friends feel about you.


This is certainly true, but within the context of a friendship I think it's easier and more kind to actually give a friend some kind of explanation (talking about the photos, not the food) to avoid hurting feelings.

Human nature is such that we naturally seek explanations and in the absence of an explanation from the source, people will devise their own. The conclusions may be right, they may be wrong, they may be flattering or they may be negative, but the fact of the matter is the vast majority of people will not leave the issue unresolved in their own minds. They will come to a conclusion.

I prefer the truth and straight talk over hemming and hawing and avoidance. Hemming and hawing and avoidance are not polite to me in the slightest, they are, in fact, the opposite. I view that behavior as the person either preferring to avoid discussing a problem to maintain their own comfort at my expense or by exercising power that has no place in a healthy friendship by making me dance to her tune for an answer or by holding some apparent transgression over my head.  It's akin to someone giving you the silent treatment without telling you why they're not talking. That's not polite, that actually seems rather cruel to me.

If I have upset my friend in some way, I would much rather know what my mistake was so I can correct it or in some cases, decide if this friend and I are inevitably going to part due to some irreconcilable difference.  So if my friend is angry that I posted her photos on my FB, I need to know that for the long-term good of the relationship. If I know that, I won't do it again. I might think it's weird or proprietary or whatever, but if it's that important to her, I won't do it.  But if she won't give me an answer about why she won't share, then it becomes an issue in our relationship not because of the failure to share photographs but because of the failure to share the truth about OUR relationship.

 
I don't think it's about being a generous person or entitled person or anything like that. Of course people get to decide what they share and don't, but 'get to' doesn't encompass the other person's reaction. The right is to keep your property to yourself--not to have your friend have no negative reaction. I really think it is about the specific act of photography.

A non-photographer, like me, would expect photo-sharing on a vacation. That's how everyone's done it, and I'd be very surprised if someone wanted to keep the pictures all for them. But to someone who is seriously into photography, it's obviously different. The photographer might be really generous about other things.

I guess what I'm saying is I don't think it's accurate to characterize a photo-sharer as someone who feels 'entitled' to other people's work, nor a non-photo-sharer as a selfish person who is more concerned with what's theirs than a friendship. I think it's about how photography is framed. To some people, it's equivalent of that term paper--sure, it won't cause the photographer to lose anything by sharing it, but it's their effort spent. To others, it's more equivalent of one person knowing the local language and the other not--it just makes sense to share.

Neither view is necessarily *wrong*, but since it's clear from this thread that there are two distinct schools of thought, it might be better to figure out which your travel companions are.
I think you've hit the nail on the head here. Clearly some people view photography while on a shared experience in a far different way than others would. I've never had a friend or relative at a shared event refuse to share photographs and until this post, I'd never heard of anyone refusing to share (and I travel a LOT with friends and relatives). So I'd assume everyone would share and I'd plan accordingly. For example, I went with some friends to a large balloon fiesta. We spread out over the area, all of us taking photographs of different areas (or of the same area which came out differently due to camera strengths and weaknesses, etc). I didn't worry about, for example, getting the best shot ever of the Elvis balloon by fighting my way through crowds since I knew my friend was deep in the thick of that area and I trusted her to get the shot for the rest of us, just as the others know my better quality camera takes better low light photos than theirs do and so they didn't bother trying to get those shots. If my friend refused to share her Elvis balloon photos, I think it would have been a very bitter experience indeed, regardless of her "right" not to share.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: GrammarNerd on December 31, 2012, 07:15:31 PM
I think the 'art' aspect is a red herring.  What if we substitute this scenario, taking the 'art' aspect out of it?

My nephew got one of these when he started college: http://www.livescribe.com/en-us/  It's a really cool pen thingie that has a voice recorder built in.  You use special paper and if you go to a certain section of your notes, the voice recorder will play what the instructor was saying in class at the time you wrote that section of the notes. 

These things aren't cheap, and there are other consumables that you have to buy, like the paper.  But he got it b/c he and his parents thought it would help him in his college courses, so they thought the investment was worth it.

So let's say he's taking a class with an old friend from high school.  Friend sees this funky pen and asks him about it.  Nephew tells him about how it works, etc.  They continue to hang out and attend class for a couple of months. Then come midterms, and the friend just assumes that Nephew will hand over his notes and voice recordings of the lectures so friend can study from them.  See, friend still attended class, but never took his own notes after he saw Nephew's cool new tool; he just assumed that Nephew would 'share' his notes because, you know, they're friends.  The classmate was still at the lectures, but Nephew had notes PLUS the voice recordings.  And it's not like it would cost Nephew any money to share, so why shouldn't Nephew share?

Well, to me, I wouldn't want to give my notes and recordings to the friend.  Friend had ample opportunity to take his own notes.  Sure, he didn't have the cool tool with the voice recorder, but he could have had it if he'd bought one for himself.  Nephew made the monetary investment in this tool, and he invested the time to learn how to use it effectively.  Just because Nephew has "better" notes, does that mean that he's obligated to give everything to the friend, just because he has the cool tool?

I think not.  The keys, I think, are the expectations by the friend that he could use Nephew's stuff and never even asked, and because of that assumption, the fact that the friend did nothing to help himself.  No, it costs nothing for Nephew to let the friend use his notes and tool.  But I don't think he has any obligation to do that whatsoever. 

Art or not, just because one person might invest the time and money in some equipment, it doesn't make the output from all of that into community property for all and sundry, even if they may have happened to have shared an event (vacation, class, etc.) with that person when he/she used the equipment. 
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: miranova on December 31, 2012, 07:25:04 PM
In fact, the only thing being stated in this thread on this side of it is that certain people would find the refusal odd.  Nothing more.  Yet words like "not obligated, not entitled, my property, my rights, my art" etc keep getting thrown around as if anyone is even remotely debating a photographer's right to keep their photos.  We all agree that it is your property and you can keep it. 

I think the only thing the travel companion did wrong was to expect the photos without asking nicely first.  I think anytime someone asks for something they do so with an expectation of at least possibly getting a yes, otherwise we would never ask anyone for anything!  So I don't think an expectation of probably getting a yes is wrong or "entitled", but I do think asking nicely is required.  Of course, he should take no for an answer and not push.  But I can understand why this didn't go down well, since the OP herself admits that she had a hard time giving a straight answer.  When someone won't give a straight yes or no answer, it is frustrating for everyone involved.

No we don't all agree.  Here several posters said they'd let the friendship cool if they couldn't have the pictures. I think I can extrapolate from that they feel entitled to them.
We are talking about how someone would FEEL if their friend refused to share travel photos with them, not whether they actually think that they have a legal right to them. The two are not even remotely the same thing and I have not seen one person argue that the photographer literally MUST hand them over.  If I have missed that, please point it out.  I don't think the exrapolating you are doing is accurate.

No-one's talking about legal rights. The very fact of asking someone for something implies that you feel like you should be able to have it, otherwise, as someone said earlier, you wouldn't have asked.

So asking for anything = feeling entitled to have it? One should never ask for a recipe, favor, copy of a photo, anything? If I ask a friend to pass me the canapes, it means I am being entitled?

In my social circle, it would be assumed that photos of a shared event are meant to be shared as well. In fact, I think the OP should have been the one to warn her friend, "You have to take your own photos, since I am not going to be sharing mine."


Yeah I am definitely with you on this one and don't know where all of the unkind accusations of other motives are coming from.  My thought was actually very similar to yours, that in the context of a friendship we ask for things that are normal and natural things to ask for, unless we are, in fact, special snowflakes.  But in the context of a normal friendship, we do ask each other for favors with some normal expectation that the answer might be yes.  This is not in any way saying that we feel 100% entitled to a "yes" answer, just that we may be taken aback for a moment.  Speaking only for myself, I would be taken aback, because I'd be wondering "what about my request was offensive?  Did I offend my friend in some way?" not "wow how dare she say no!  I'm entitled to those photos!"  Unfortunately, those of us trying to explain our view are being accused wrongly of the 2nd attitude even when we've never displayed it.  I do not feel entitled to my friends photos, nor to her clothing, food, or anything else. 

However, if, in the context of a friendship where I have feely given these things when asked, I would wonder why seemingly all of a sudden, a normal request is being denied with no reason given whatsoever.  And it would be even more frustrating that my friend couldn't just give me a straight yes or no answer.  Not because I'm entitled to the photos themselves, it's not about the photos at that point. It's about wondering what I'm missing here because it certainly seems like a normal request.  In real life, the friend didn't have the luxury of reading through 11 pages of reasons why the OP might not want to share the photos.  He has no idea why they aren't being shared, and while he may not be strictly entitled to an explanation, I see that as neither here nor there in this case.  I do not owe my friend a trip to the airport, but if she asks me and I can't do it for whatever reason, I sure as heck and going to say more than "um...maybe later, I don't know, not sure, we'll see", etc.  I'm going to answer, and if the answer is no, I DO think a good friend deserves a simple reason why not.  It's a relationship thing, not strictly an etiquette thing.  I don't want my friends thinking that I am just unwilling to do favors for them at all.  So if they ask a reasonable favor that I can't/won't/don't want to do, I'm going to give them the courtesy of at least explaining so they are not left wondering what they did wrong.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: CakeEater on December 31, 2012, 07:30:32 PM
In fact, the only thing being stated in this thread on this side of it is that certain people would find the refusal odd.  Nothing more.  Yet words like "not obligated, not entitled, my property, my rights, my art" etc keep getting thrown around as if anyone is even remotely debating a photographer's right to keep their photos.  We all agree that it is your property and you can keep it. 

I think the only thing the travel companion did wrong was to expect the photos without asking nicely first.  I think anytime someone asks for something they do so with an expectation of at least possibly getting a yes, otherwise we would never ask anyone for anything!  So I don't think an expectation of probably getting a yes is wrong or "entitled", but I do think asking nicely is required.  Of course, he should take no for an answer and not push.  But I can understand why this didn't go down well, since the OP herself admits that she had a hard time giving a straight answer.  When someone won't give a straight yes or no answer, it is frustrating for everyone involved.

No we don't all agree.  Here several posters said they'd let the friendship cool if they couldn't have the pictures. I think I can extrapolate from that they feel entitled to them.
We are talking about how someone would FEEL if their friend refused to share travel photos with them, not whether they actually think that they have a legal right to them. The two are not even remotely the same thing and I have not seen one person argue that the photographer literally MUST hand them over.  If I have missed that, please point it out.  I don't think the exrapolating you are doing is accurate.

No-one's talking about legal rights. The very fact of asking someone for something implies that you feel like you should be able to have it, otherwise, as someone said earlier, you wouldn't have asked.

So asking for anything = feeling entitled to have it? One should never ask for a recipe, favor, copy of a photo, anything? If I ask a friend to pass me the canapes, it means I am being entitled?

In my social circle, it would be assumed that photos of a shared event are meant to be shared as well. In fact, I think the OP should have been the one to warn her friend, "You have to take your own photos, since I am not going to be sharing mine."

(It's funny, I have a friend who almost the opposite situation happened to. One of her in-laws set herself up as the group "photographer." She actively discouraged anyone else from taking pictures. But then when she sent out the photos, she spalshed her watermark all over them, rendering them useless for the group, who wanted to use them for portraits, christmas cards, etc.)

An entitled person assumes they should have everything. But we are entitled to have many things. You are entitled to eat the canapes, so asking for them is fine. Your friendship means you are entitled to ask for favours in a way you wouldn't be from a stranger. I think you are entitled to ask for a copy of a photo under many circumstances. I don't think you are entitled to ask your photogapher friend to hand over 650 images.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: buvezdevin on December 31, 2012, 07:46:24 PM
For me the reasonableness of the request/demand to share photos (aside from the distinction between a "request" and a "demand") is also related to "scope".

OP's friend asked that OP share her photos by downloading all.

OP agreed to share photos, did share selected photos, but did not choose to provide her total files, I.e. met the request but reframed the scope.

Friend's - or anyone's - objection to OP's position should not be framed as "OP did not share" but "OP did not comply/meet the request for giving copies of all OP's photos taken during a shared trip."

I mention this point because it seems "off" to me to state the matter strictly as "share" or "not share" when the crux in OP's case is more a question of what are the views as to selective sharing when someone asks for "all photos" and the photographer is willing to share "some photos."

I posted my view earlier that I would have responded and felt as OP did, and while my personal view is not changed, I have been interested in the variety of views presented. 
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: Firecat on December 31, 2012, 07:53:57 PM
I don't think it's about being a generous person or entitled person or anything like that. Of course people get to decide what they share and don't, but 'get to' doesn't encompass the other person's reaction. The right is to keep your property to yourself--not to have your friend have no negative reaction. I really think it is about the specific act of photography.

A non-photographer, like me, would expect photo-sharing on a vacation. That's how everyone's done it, and I'd be very surprised if someone wanted to keep the pictures all for them. But to someone who is seriously into photography, it's obviously different. The photographer might be really generous about other things.

I guess what I'm saying is I don't think it's accurate to characterize a photo-sharer as someone who feels 'entitled' to other people's work, nor a non-photo-sharer as a selfish person who is more concerned with what's theirs than a friendship. I think it's about how photography is framed. To some people, it's equivalent of that term paper--sure, it won't cause the photographer to lose anything by sharing it, but it's their effort spent. To others, it's more equivalent of one person knowing the local language and the other not--it just makes sense to share.

Neither view is necessarily *wrong*, but since it's clear from this thread that there are two distinct schools of thought, it might be better to figure out which your travel companions are.

Actually, with the term paper example, that's not entirely true. Where I work, if you turn in someone else's paper, and it gets caught, both people involved can be penalized severely, if it's found that the originator of the work allowed the second person to use it in that fashion. It's academic dishonesty, and it's heavily frowned upon, to put it mildly. Maybe that's why I take a more severe view of the OP's friend than some appear to be - not only was my DH a professional photographer who would be very unhappy about such a "request" from pretty much anyone, but the friend previously posting the OP's photos without credit is pushing my "dishonesty" buttons. Because to me, that's dishonest as well as rude. So to me, the only thing the OP did wrong was not being straightforward when the demand was made.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: MariaE on December 31, 2012, 08:15:34 PM
I completely agree with miranova - especially her last post. I don't think the OP was wrong not to share all her photos. I don't understand it, but that's something else entirely - I both accept and respect it 100%. I do think she was wrong to a) attempt to beandip rather than say no outright and b) not explain her reasoning. That is what would make me consider cooling a friendship - not the refusal, but the fact that I'm apparently not even worse a refusal or an explanation. It wouldn't be a tit-for-tat "she won't give me her photos, so I won't be her friend, so there!" but rather a "Huh... Looks like we're not as close friends as I thought we were."
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: gramma dishes on December 31, 2012, 08:18:39 PM
Sharing is voluntary.  It's something you do because you want to.

What he wanted doesn't qualify in that category.  He wanted immediate access to everything she had done.   The culmination of all her hard work, her financial investment in the equipment, her time to locate "special" viewpoints and scenes.  AND he wanted to be able to pick through her stuff before she did by demanding that she download the entire memory card into his device before she'd had the opportunity to download it into her own. 

That's not sharing.  That's taking.

I wouldn't have complied with that request either, although if he had said "I'd love to have copies of some of your pictures" I'd have been overjoyed to provide him with several after I had finished picking and choosing which ones to keep and which to alter and which to delete.  Choosing several, even some of my "best" ones, to copy for him to add to the pictures he'd taken himself would be my definition of "sharing".

I can't quite follow the food analogy, but to me it would be more like Friend orders a coke for $.49.  Photographer is starving and orders $30 worth of food and beverages, thinking she will eat some now and save some for the hotel room and/or the flight back home.  She plans  to share with him along the way.   But while she is paying,  Friend immediately grabs her food containers and starts picking through them for what he wants to eat before she's had the chance to choose what SHE wants to eat.  That's much more like what happened here with the pictures.

He does NOT get priority over her when it comes to deciding the fate of her pictures.  He wasn't asking to "share".  He wanted them all and he wanted them first.  If I were the photographer, I don't think I'd be too upset if Friend decided to cool the friendship a little.  To me he seems extremely self centered and greedy and totally oblivious to the effort and money and time she had put into getting those images.  "Sure, you got the pictures, but you're supposed to give them all to me." 

I don't think so.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: EMuir on December 31, 2012, 08:29:38 PM
I can't quite follow the food analogy, but to me it would be more like Friend orders a coke for $.49.  Photographer is starving and orders $30 worth of food and beverages, thinking she will eat some now and save some for the hotel room and/or the flight back home.  She plans  to share with him along the way.   But while she is paying,  Friend immediately grabs her food containers and starts picking through them for what he wants to eat before she's had the chance to choose what SHE wants to eat.  That's much more like what happened here with the pictures.

Except he wouldn't have actually taken anything she didn't also have.  It's more like he touches every food container (not opens, just touches) to see what cool food she has.  Then she takes it away.

I agree that everyone has a right to not share their photos or recipes, at a whim.  And everyone else has a right to be hurt that they weren't considered to be trustworthy enough of a friend that they were not given the photo or recipe.  In this case may be the friend isn't trustworthy indeed.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: citadelle on December 31, 2012, 08:33:32 PM
Sharing is voluntary.  It's something you do because you want to.. 

That's not sharing.  That's taking.

He does NOT get priority over her when it comes to deciding the fate of her pictures.  He wasn't asking to "share".  He wanted them all and he wanted them first.  If I were the photographer, I don't think I'd be too upset if Friend decided to cool the friendship a little.  To me he seems extremely self centered and greedy and totally oblivious to the effort and money and time she had put into getting those images.  "Sure, you got the pictures, but you're supposed to give them all to me." 

I don't think so.

If he is such a self centered, oblivious and greedy person, why are they traveling together? I think the assumption here is that they are friends and have a reason to think the best of each other, rather than the worst.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: buvezdevin on December 31, 2012, 08:41:00 PM
Sharing is voluntary.  It's something you do because you want to.. 

That's not sharing.  That's taking.

He does NOT get priority over her when it comes to deciding the fate of her pictures.  He wasn't asking to "share".  He wanted them all and he wanted them first.  If I were the photographer, I don't think I'd be too upset if Friend decided to cool the friendship a little.  To me he seems extremely self centered and greedy and totally oblivious to the effort and money and time she had put into getting those images.  "Sure, you got the pictures, but you're supposed to give them all to me." 

I don't think so.

If he is such a self centered, oblivious and greedy person, why are they traveling together? I think the assumption here is that they are friends and have a reason to think the best of each other, rather than the worst.

He may be lovely in many respects, but we all have flaws.  And I have though personal experience, and vicariously, known of several instances where a trip together did lead to cooled relationships - sometimes unilateral, sometimes bilateral, including previously long standing close relationships.  In the present instance, it has been illuminating to me that people (including myself) may have a fairly strong view on this type of situation, but it is a far from uniform view.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: Firecat on December 31, 2012, 08:43:51 PM
I can't quite follow the food analogy, but to me it would be more like Friend orders a coke for $.49.  Photographer is starving and orders $30 worth of food and beverages, thinking she will eat some now and save some for the hotel room and/or the flight back home.  She plans  to share with him along the way.   But while she is paying,  Friend immediately grabs her food containers and starts picking through them for what he wants to eat before she's had the chance to choose what SHE wants to eat.  That's much more like what happened here with the pictures.

Except he wouldn't have actually taken anything she didn't also have.  It's more like he touches every food container (not opens, just touches) to see what cool food she has.  Then she takes it away.

I agree that everyone has a right to not share their photos or recipes, at a whim.  And everyone else has a right to be hurt that they weren't considered to be trustworthy enough of a friend that they were not given the photo or recipe.  In this case may be the friend isn't trustworthy indeed.

He's not trustworthy and has already demonstrated it by posting pictures taken by the OP as his own. So to me, there's an aspect of "natural consequences" to the OP's refusal as well.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: Lindee on December 31, 2012, 08:58:11 PM
The OP gave the friend photos of himself so it is not that she won't "share" ie give him her photos but a demand for all of the photos before the OP has had a chance to look at,  edit, weed out any embarrassing or private or cringe worthy pics first is unreasonable.  Among those 650 odd photos there will be mistakes, totally personal, photos they want to enter in competitions, put into exhibitions, or hastily delete before anyone else sees them etc.   

If you are close enough to vacation together and are still speaking afterwards than I'd expect that you would be willing to give a friend a selection of the photos after you have had a change to process and sort them,  but download the entire lot before that - no way.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: ladyknight1 on December 31, 2012, 09:05:01 PM
I think the OP is certainly not rude to refuse the demand of her traveling companion. When I travel, I take hundreds of photos per day. It takes me up to a month to go through them, pick the few I want to share with the world, and weed out the bad ones. DH and DFIL are serious hobby photographers. My good friend is a professional photographer.

Photographs are no different than any other intellectual property, they are the photographer's creations.

OP, the only thing I might do differently is to ask your friend which of your photos are his favorites and have those printed for him. That is only if you feel comfortable.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: kareng57 on December 31, 2012, 09:41:51 PM
I don't think that either OP or her friend were clearly "right" or "wrong" in this situation.  I will completely agree that he should have asked rather than just assumed re photo-sharing; however, he quite possibly previously always traveled with friends who were amateur (rather than professional-class) photographers and who readily shared photos.  OP was perfectly etiquettely-correct in saying "no" without an explanation (I do acknowledge that she did supply a few photos with him in it) - but if it was along the lines of "here are only the photos that show you" he might be kind of baffled and wonder what he'd done to offend her.

So I think, overall, that this is a situation where you (generic) can feel satisfied that what you did was not rude at all, yet it could cost a friendship.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: snowdragon on December 31, 2012, 11:30:15 PM
I don't think that either OP or her friend were clearly "right" or "wrong" in this situation.  I will completely agree that he should have asked rather than just assumed re photo-sharing; however, he quite possibly previously always traveled with friends who were amateur (rather than professional-class) photographers and who readily shared photos.  OP was perfectly etiquettely-correct in saying "no" without an explanation (I do acknowledge that she did supply a few photos with him in it) - but if it was along the lines of "here are only the photos that show you" he might be kind of baffled and wonder what he'd done to offend her.

So I think, overall, that this is a situation where you (generic) can feel satisfied that what you did was not rude at all, yet it could cost a friendship.

And the bolded is why it's not a request. It's give me what I want or I am not your friend. If it's a friendship of equals - then saying no should not be the end of a friendship.   I have never had a friendship where I had to fork over everything a the other person wanted or else they'd not be my friend anymore - at least not since the 2nd grade.   
 
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: DoubleTrouble on January 01, 2013, 09:32:58 AM
As someone who will be purchasing a very expensive camera + accessories soon, this thread has been most enlightening. Personally I think the friend was rude to demand those pictures & that the OP was very nice to give him the pictures that he was in. If she wants to give him other pictures after they have been sorted & processed, I would highly recommend she put a watermark on them. I'll be making me own watermark soon, there are lots of great tutorials out there on how to do it!
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: ettiquit on January 01, 2013, 01:35:39 PM
I don't think that either OP or her friend were clearly "right" or "wrong" in this situation.  I will completely agree that he should have asked rather than just assumed re photo-sharing; however, he quite possibly previously always traveled with friends who were amateur (rather than professional-class) photographers and who readily shared photos.  OP was perfectly etiquettely-correct in saying "no" without an explanation (I do acknowledge that she did supply a few photos with him in it) - but if it was along the lines of "here are only the photos that show you" he might be kind of baffled and wonder what he'd done to offend her.

So I think, overall, that this is a situation where you (generic) can feel satisfied that what you did was not rude at all, yet it could cost a friendship.

And the bolded is why it's not a request. It's give me what I want or I am not your friend. If it's a friendship of equals - then saying no should not be the end of a friendship.   I have never had a friendship where I had to fork over everything a the other person wanted or else they'd not be my friend anymore - at least not since the 2nd grade.   
 

Exactly.

Some people have said that they would consider it "odd" to not be given all the pictures, and that's ok.  Thoughts aren't rude.  But if that ends up changing the way you treat your friend (especially if you cool it off), then you don't actually think your friend has a right to withhold the pictures.  Otherwise, there would be no reason for the dynamic of the friendship to change.


I also wondered if the OP took pics that were completely non-vacation related.  I like to play with my macro lens wherever I am, and I can't see a macro shot of anything being labeled as "yay, Paris!".  She may have taken some macro shots of pretty flowers, cool textures, etc.  There's nothing wrong or odd about her thinking "This picture is of the vacation" or "This picture is for me".
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: Melde on January 01, 2013, 02:32:50 PM
As an 'Artist' ( a label of which you obtain from you peers in the art world and not the general public), I may be at the beginning of my career, but that does not make my work less professional or worth of keeping control on where it surfaces. That is how I build a career, not hoard it to myself. This may surprise you, but galleries do not want work that is already 'owned' by people, and they definitely do not respekt teh Facebook. If you are treating it like a family photo, you can just keep it. Word will travel. They don't like it if you submit the same work to multiple shows either. They talk and you won't get chosen for either. So keeping a reign on your work is vital.

I also think the idea between vacation pictures and art pictures are getting confused.


This is a vacation picture I took when I was travelling with family. If they wanted a copy, here you go, great memories! Remember when we went to get slurpees and there was that random apple? classic!
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v406/melde_thiliel/Facebook/Summer%20Vacation%202008/208_22801966823_6228_n.jpg)


However, on that trip, I also took some photos when people were busy with other things, and not at all interested in the environment- so no emotional investment for them, it has no connection to our travelling together. But I could sell posters easily. My sister would be like 'When did you take that?' When you were sleeping. 'Oh.' Sure, we were on the same trip in a general sense, but it is separate from the vacation as we experienced together.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v406/melde_thiliel/Facebook/Summer%20Vacation%202008/208_22802096823_5957_n.jpg)
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: gramma dishes on January 01, 2013, 03:13:56 PM

...   I also think the idea between vacation pictures and art pictures are getting confused.  ...


I do too, but I honestly don't think it matters.

I'm an avid amateur photographer, but I would rarely if ever consider my images "works of art".  However I still take my photography seriously and consider my images rather an extension of my brain's unique way of seeing (we all have unique ways of seeing) and my personality.

Even my own husband and I can stand side by side and take pictures of the "same" place/thing and they won't look even remotely similar.  Personality does go into how you see and observe what's in front of you and what you choose to include in that frame.

We nearly always travel in groups from as small as a total of three or four people to as many as twenty or so.  It is just basically understood that everyone is responsible for packing their own clothing and gear, bringing their own cash to cover expenses, getting to places and events on time, and taking their own pictures. 

There's no problem with sharing pictures in a variety of ways from individual web sites and emailing to actually printing out a few and handing them to people who might like them.  But no one has EVER expected to just be handed every picture taken by everyone else on the trip.

I don't buy souvenirs.  To me, my photographs are my souvenirs.  Other people take few (or no) pictures because they have little or no interest in doing so, but instead they buy things that remind them of the places we've seen.  We don't expect those people to "share" by handing over their purchases to us and they don't expect the photographers in the group to hand over all our pictures to them.

The pictures the OP took are her pictures.  No one else has the right to demand them.  She will probably quite willingly share what she chooses to share, but to me it is incredibly odd and quite presumptuous for her friend to just assume she will hand everything she has over to him. 

If he wanted more pictures, he should have taken more himself. 
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: miranova on January 01, 2013, 04:19:02 PM
I don't think that either OP or her friend were clearly "right" or "wrong" in this situation.  I will completely agree that he should have asked rather than just assumed re photo-sharing; however, he quite possibly previously always traveled with friends who were amateur (rather than professional-class) photographers and who readily shared photos.  OP was perfectly etiquettely-correct in saying "no" without an explanation (I do acknowledge that she did supply a few photos with him in it) - but if it was along the lines of "here are only the photos that show you" he might be kind of baffled and wonder what he'd done to offend her.

So I think, overall, that this is a situation where you (generic) can feel satisfied that what you did was not rude at all, yet it could cost a friendship.

And the bolded is why it's not a request. It's give me what I want or I am not your friend. If it's a friendship of equals - then saying no should not be the end of a friendship.   I have never had a friendship where I had to fork over everything a the other person wanted or else they'd not be my friend anymore - at least not since the 2nd grade.   
 

.  But if that ends up changing the way you treat your friend (especially if you cool it off), then you don't actually think your friend has a right to withhold the pictures.  Otherwise, there would be no reason for the dynamic of the friendship to change.




Here is where the disconnect lies.  I just don't agree with that logic. 

Just because someone CAN do something doesn't mean they get a guarantee that everyone will like it and still want to hang around with them as much. 

I have no problem respecting a "no" from anyone.  It's their decision.  And it's my decision who I want to invest my energy and time into.

**I'm not saying I would end a friendship over this, just that I disagree with this logic.**
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: pickles50 on January 01, 2013, 07:29:43 PM
OP here again...

WOW, I didn't think this would solicit as much feedback as it did but I appreciate everyone's' insight on this. There were some things I had not considered that made me think. I have resolved to making my friend a small photo book with some of the pictures and I will not be handing over the digital copies. In the future, the next person I travel with I will make sure to make a point of saying something along the lines of "don't forget to pack a camera as a really do not like sharing my photos". I do however, feel that I do not owe my friend an explanation. I typically do not offer up explanation unless people ask for an explanation directly, as I really don't feel I need to justify my reasoning. Maybe bean-dipping out of the demand/request was not the best approach but I have found when people don't ask for an explanation directly they know the answer already. I honestly had no idea throughout our trip he was betting on getting copies of my pictures. In addition when I give people pictures I don't want to have a conversation with them about the stipulations of the pictures, because it seems like a gift with strings so I avoid it all together, friends or not.

A yr back I took some photos for a marketing project a friend was working on and when I uploaded them to her computer I  didn't realize she got a couple of unrelated ones. These pictures were of something that you can easily google or get a postcard but the quality of my photo was stellar. I only realized this mistake the following day when much to my chagrin these unrelated photos were posted on her facebook page, open to the world. So moving forward I guard my pictures tighter now.

Thank you!
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: baglady on January 01, 2013, 07:44:33 PM
I wonder if OP's friend is simply stuck in that mindset from film camera days, when people were more likely to give away most or all their photos from an event. But that's because:

With film, we're talking 24 or 36 or 48 photos, not hundreds;

Many photo processing outfits offered two sets of prints for the price of one. It was good for business, but it also encouraged people to share their prints;

Before digital photography and digital editing programs, 99.9999999 percent of the vacation, holiday and other event photos taken by participants (as opposed to professionals) were plain old souvenir snapshots. They were not art that was going to be framed or hung on the wall ... except perhaps by the people in them, or their loved ones. Pros and art photographers did their own processing, or used labs catering to pros, not the drugstore or Fotomat.

If this is what he's grown up with, he may be thinking, "Hey, they're just vacation snaps; what's the big deal?" Which doesn't excuse his behavior, but it may explain it.

I think where the OP went wrong was giving him the photos he was in right then and there. She would probably have been better off telling him, "Sorry, no. Not sharing these with anyone till I've gone through them all. At home. I'll be sure you get copies of the ones I know you'll appreciate."

Not that what she did was rude ... she was trying to be generous. But it gave him an opening to demand more, whereas a flat "No" *might* have shut him down more effectively.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: JenJay on January 01, 2013, 07:52:23 PM
*snip*
 I only realized this mistake the following day when much to my chagrin these unrelated photos were posted on her facebook page, open to the world. So moving forward I guard my pictures tighter now.
*snip*

 :(

Did she at least credit you?

I think, going forward, a good thing to tell friends you vacation with might be "FYI, I'll be taking a lot of photos on our trip, and I'm happy to email you copies of any you're in, but I won't be able to share all of my work because I use some of my photos professionally. I'm letting you know up front because previously I've had friends assume I'd be the Official Trip Photographer and not bring their own camera."
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: pickles50 on January 01, 2013, 08:06:52 PM
No she didn't credit me at all. I thought about saying something to her but at this time in my life I am choosing to pick my battles (so to speak). I chalked it up as a lesson learned. She did thank everyone for saying how lovely a photo it is. Digital photography has certainly taken on an entirely new set of rules. I'm not sure if it because it monetarily doesn't cost to email vrs actually handing over prints. I get more fustrated when I have to explain my reasoning and people think its "no big deal just a picture"...then if its no big deal just a picture why don't you take your own pictures?
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: JenJay on January 01, 2013, 08:15:14 PM
No she didn't credit me at all. I thought about saying something to her but at this time in my life I am choosing to pick my battles (so to speak). I chalked it up as a lesson learned. She did thank everyone for saying how lovely a photo it is. Digital photography has certainly taken on an entirely new set of rules. I'm not sure if it because it monetarily doesn't cost to email vrs actually handing over prints. I get more fustrated when I have to explain my reasoning and people think its "no big deal just a picture"...then if its no big deal just a picture why don't you take your own pictures?

She accepted the compliments on the photo?!  That is just... there are no words. I don't think I could stand it. I would have to say "Hey friend, I'm glad everyone likes my photo, but I actually didn't intend to give you that one as I'm using it for another project. I'd really appreciate it if you'd remove it." I'll admit I probably wouldn't have said anything up until a few years ago, though. For some reason the closer I get to 40 the less likely I am to put up with any amount of crud. Or maybe it's because, coincidentally, my oldest child is nearly a teen. Hmmm...  ;D
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: gramma dishes on January 01, 2013, 08:21:01 PM

You could have called her and asked her to immediately remove the unrelated pictures from her site as you had not intended her to have them and they weren't necessary to the project. 

I'm sure you know this now, but may not have at the time.  Pictures in the U.S. or Canada are automatically copyrighted.  No one can use them without your express permission.

As far as other people commenting positively on those pictures and her just thanking them instead of crediting you?  Oh no.  No. No. No.  That would never fly with me! I would have been furious!!    >:( 

Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: TurtleDove on January 01, 2013, 08:30:48 PM
As far as other people commenting positively on those pictures and her just thanking them instead of crediting you?  Oh no.  No. No. No.  That would never fly with me! I would have been furious!!    >:(

If the friend was taking credit for having taken the photo, yeah, I would probably have commented that I actually took it if she didn't correct the misassumption.  I don't know what the subject of the photo was, but from what has been posted I didn't get that sense but more of a "look at this cool shot - I was actually there and saw this awesome thing" which is not at all the same thing.  I mean, I can see how as a photographer you might be chafed, but not everyone thinks of things that way.  Unless the comments were along the lines of "wow - I have never seen a more artfully framed photo of the Grand Canyon - you are a stellar photographer" I bet people were simly commenting "whoa - the Grand Canyon sure is amazing!"

I think that it where some of us are clashing.  Some posters seems to assume the friend is maliciously trying to steal from the OP or feels entitled to take credit for her photos.  I would assume the friend just wants to have cool reminders of a fun trip and is confused why the OP wouldn't want him to have them.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: PastryGoddess on January 01, 2013, 09:40:33 PM
As far as other people commenting positively on those pictures and her just thanking them instead of crediting you?  Oh no.  No. No. No.  That would never fly with me! I would have been furious!!    >:(

If the friend was taking credit for having taken the photo, yeah, I would probably have commented that I actually took it if she didn't correct the misassumption.  I don't know what the subject of the photo was, but from what has been posted I didn't get that sense but more of a "look at this cool shot - I was actually there and saw this awesome thing" which is not at all the same thing.  I mean, I can see how as a photographer you might be chafed, but not everyone thinks of things that way.  Unless the comments were along the lines of "wow - I have never seen a more artfully framed photo of the Grand Canyon - you are a stellar photographer" I bet people were simly commenting "whoa - the Grand Canyon sure is amazing!"

I think that it where some of us are clashing.  Some posters seems to assume the friend is maliciously trying to steal from the OP or feels entitled to take credit for her photos.  I would assume the friend just wants to have cool reminders of a fun trip and is confused why the OP wouldn't want him to have them.


No one is assuming, the OP has said in a previous post that this person has taken credit for her photos in the past. 
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: Firecat on January 01, 2013, 09:44:45 PM
As far as other people commenting positively on those pictures and her just thanking them instead of crediting you?  Oh no.  No. No. No.  That would never fly with me! I would have been furious!!    >:(

If the friend was taking credit for having taken the photo, yeah, I would probably have commented that I actually took it if she didn't correct the misassumption.  I don't know what the subject of the photo was, but from what has been posted I didn't get that sense but more of a "look at this cool shot - I was actually there and saw this awesome thing" which is not at all the same thing.  I mean, I can see how as a photographer you might be chafed, but not everyone thinks of things that way.  Unless the comments were along the lines of "wow - I have never seen a more artfully framed photo of the Grand Canyon - you are a stellar photographer" I bet people were simly commenting "whoa - the Grand Canyon sure is amazing!"

I think that it where some of us are clashing.  Some posters seems to assume the friend is maliciously trying to steal from the OP or feels entitled to take credit for her photos.  I would assume the friend just wants to have cool reminders of a fun trip and is confused why the OP wouldn't want him to have them.


No one is assuming, the OP has said in a previous post that this person has taken credit for her photos in the past.

POD. And I know I've brought that up several times during the discussion as well. So I think the OP had even more reason to refuse to share the photos, and was actually being generous to provide the ones the friend was in at all.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: TurtleDove on January 01, 2013, 09:48:39 PM
No one is assuming, the OP has said in a previous post that this person has taken credit for her photos in the past.

What I understood is that the friend posted the photo to facebook.  Lots of people post photos to facebook without the assumption understanding or implication that the poster took the photograph.  Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see that the friend affirmatively was saying, "Look at this awesome photo I took!"  That I would have a problem with.  But I absolutely understand posting something (I wouldn't, but I understand it as not malicious) like "look at how awesome the Grand Canyon is!"
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: Firecat on January 01, 2013, 09:52:18 PM
No one is assuming, the OP has said in a previous post that this person has taken credit for her photos in the past.

What I understood is that the friend posted the photo to facebook.  Lots of people post photos to facebook without the assumption understanding or implication that the poster took the photograph.  Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see that the friend affirmatively was saying, "Look at this awesome photo I took!"  That I would have a problem with.  But I absolutely understand posting something (I wouldn't, but I understand it as not malicious) like "look at how awesome the Grand Canyon is!"

I disagree. I think that, unless the friend specifically said something like "check out the awesome photo OP took", then he was, in essence if not explicitly, taking credit for the photo.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: TurtleDove on January 01, 2013, 09:55:27 PM
I disagree. I think that, unless the friend specifically said something like "check out the awesome photo OP took", then he was, in essence if not explicitly, taking credit for the photo.

I think that is where the clash in opinions on this issue lies.  Reasonable minds can disagree, but I certainly do not assume that every photo posted by my friends on facebook was taken by them, especially if there are "professional quality."  And really, I don't care.  I just enjoy a cool photo.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: White Lotus on January 01, 2013, 09:56:10 PM
I am a lousy photographer.  No matter how I try, no matter how much I spend on equipment, no matter how I study up on it, and learn editing software, I am still a lousy photographer. 
I am a pretty good painter, though.  I take photographs to capture scenes, yes, but particularly light, so when I get back to my studio, I can paint images from wherever I have been.  And leave out inconvenient utility poles, roads, and other things extraneous to the image I want to see in the final painting.  Nobody needs those photos, or any of mine, unless I have taken some snapshot/people photos (I paint landscapes, so I rarely take photos of anything else) and then they are welcome, though someone else probably took better ones.
I know some pretty good photographers.  I will ask them sometimes to take a photo of something I want to paint that I know I absolutely cannot photograph well enough to get the painting I see in my mind.  And I generally send them a painting now and again, because I appreciate it.
These photographers tell me they take dozens of shots to get a usable one, and maybe hundreds to get a great one.  They use their talents and skills all the way from deciding what to shoot through editing programs and final versions.  I would no more expect to be given access to raw photographs than I would hand over rough pencil sketches. 
I am proud of my work, but my paintings are finished products, and the prep work is not my product.  Same with a photographer's raw photos.  The asker/traveling companion either understands photography even less than I do (barely possible), or is both inconsiderate and rude. OP simply didn't know how to say "These are not ready yet.  I will send you some when they are."  She was flummoxed, and given the length and spirited nature of this thread, I can see why.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: gypsy77 on January 01, 2013, 10:23:43 PM
I think art vs snapshot is actually not even a consideration. I am not an amateur photographer, and I would not post my pictures online, nor give copies of them to someone else.

I'm fat. Very fat. Maybe this makes me more ensitive to this possibility, but let's say I share my pictures with my friend. Let's also say that one of the picures has someone in it who is different in some way, be it fat, old fashioned hair, whatever it is. My friend uploads those pictures to facebook, and doesn't have the greatest privacy settings. One of her friends, Jane,  likes or comments on that picture, and it is now in Jane's newsfeed visible to all of Janes friends.

And then it ends up submitted to a site like lamebook, or failbook, or people of wal-mart, or the jillion other sites that exist solely to make fun of people. (Go to lamebook and click on the photo category, if you'd like to see what I am talking about).

So to me, it does not come down to a question of art vs snapshots, or sharing vs hoarding. Both my reasons for not sharing and the OP's reasons are valid. And yes, anyone is allowed to think I am odd for that. But I think it would be a pretty poor friend who would not understand my need for privacy, or who would not support someone who takes photos as their creative outlet and would back off a friendship for it.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: Firecat on January 01, 2013, 10:33:53 PM
I think art vs snapshot is actually not even a consideration. I am not an amateur photographer, and I would not post my pictures online, nor give copies of them to someone else.

I'm fat. Very fat. Maybe this makes me more ensitive to this possibility, but let's say I share my pictures with my friend. Let's also say that one of the picures has someone in it who is different in some way, be it fat, old fashioned hair, whatever it is. My friend uploads those pictures to facebook, and doesn't have the greatest privacy settings. One of her friends, Jane,  likes or comments on that picture, and it is now in Jane's newsfeed visible to all of Janes friends.

And then it ends up submitted to a site like lamebook, or failbook, or people of wal-mart, or the jillion other sites that exist solely to make fun of people. (Go to lamebook and click on the photo category, if you'd like to see what I am talking about).

So to me, it does not come down to a question of art vs snapshots, or sharing vs hoarding. Both my reasons for not sharing and the OP's reasons are valid. And yes, anyone is allowed to think I am odd for that. But I think it would be a pretty poor friend who would not understand my need for privacy, or who would not support someone who takes photos as their creative outlet and would back off a friendship for it.

POD to the bolded. Maybe I'm weird (ok, I probably am...) but to me, one of the good things about having friends in the first place is sometimes running into some differing points of view between us...and talking those through. Sometimes we still disagree, but that doesn't mean that either of us "backs off" from the friendship. Sometimes we just agree to avoid certain subjects; sometimes we both learn something; sometimes it really isn't a big deal, or is only as big a deal as we allow it to be. Sometimes one or both of us changes our thinking a bit.

I think this sharing photos issue could be a perfect example, at least with fairly close friends. If I had a close friend, and made what was to me a normal request and they declined, I'd at least ask for their reasoning and try to understand it if it was something important to me. I wouldn't assume that we weren't as close as I'd thought or that I'd offended them in the absence of additional evidence that such was the case - that seems like a big over-reaction to me.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: bloo on January 02, 2013, 07:36:51 AM
I think art vs snapshot is actually not even a consideration. I am not an amateur photographer, and I would not post my pictures online, nor give copies of them to someone else.

I'm fat. Very fat. Maybe this makes me more ensitive to this possibility, but let's say I share my pictures with my friend. Let's also say that one of the picures has someone in it who is different in some way, be it fat, old fashioned hair, whatever it is. My friend uploads those pictures to facebook, and doesn't have the greatest privacy settings. One of her friends, Jane,  likes or comments on that picture, and it is now in Jane's newsfeed visible to all of Janes friends.

And then it ends up submitted to a site like lamebook, or failbook, or people of wal-mart, or the jillion other sites that exist solely to make fun of people. (Go to lamebook and click on the photo category, if you'd like to see what I am talking about).

So to me, it does not come down to a question of art vs snapshots, or sharing vs hoarding. Both my reasons for not sharing and the OP's reasons are valid. And yes, anyone is allowed to think I am odd for that. But I think it would be a pretty poor friend who would not understand my need for privacy, or who would not support someone who takes photos as their creative outlet and would back off a friendship for it.

POD to the bolded. Maybe I'm weird (ok, I probably am...) but to me, one of the good things about having friends in the first place is sometimes running into some differing points of view between us...and talking those through. Sometimes we still disagree, but that doesn't mean that either of us "backs off" from the friendship. Sometimes we just agree to avoid certain subjects; sometimes we both learn something; sometimes it really isn't a big deal, or is only as big a deal as we allow it to be. Sometimes one or both of us changes our thinking a bit.

I think this sharing photos issue could be a perfect example, at least with fairly close friends. If I had a close friend, and made what was to me a normal request and they declined, I'd at least ask for their reasoning and try to understand it if it was something important to me. I wouldn't assume that we weren't as close as I'd thought or that I'd offended them in the absence of additional evidence that such was the case - that seems like a big over-reaction to me.

I agree with both viewpoints. And, although I'm not 'very fat', I am utterly unphotogenic. I dislike most photos of myself. You have to catch me at just the right angle to get a decent pic of me. So I'm sensitive to people just posting any photo they want on a social network or emailing them to all and sundry. So maybe that contributes to my feelings of wanting to control what is 'mine'.

But I may not conciously be able to identify that feeling much less articulate it to someone. So I'd appreciate someone just respecting, "please don't post photos of me or my photos on FB" or "I'll share some of the pics I've taken after I've gone through them."
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: Victim Of Fate on January 02, 2013, 07:58:59 AM
I have read this thread with interest, and I think this is an interesting dilemma. I think that there are a few aspects to be taken into consideration:

1) The scope of the demand

Much has been made of the fact that the friend asked for all 650 photos, and wasn't just content with the photos of the friend supplied by the OP. While I can see how this might come across as a huge demand, is the OP sure that the friend was not simply unaware of how many photos there were, and how big the files were. If I went on holiday with a friend, and I just had a smartphone and they had a DSLR, there might be instances where we took photos of the same thing, from the same vantage point (e.g. the Eiffel Tower, the Arc de Triomphe), but their photos came out much better than mine. I might just want copies of those items, rather than all of their catalogue of photos. But I might still phrase it as asking for - "all of your photos" rather than "a selection of photos that document our shared experience", especially as a response to just receiving photos in which I was the subject. If I was the one using my DSLR, I would probably say that I wanted to go through them and select the ones I wanted to share, as some of them were personal, and more of them were near-duplicates of other images with only minor differences.

2) The way in which the demand was made

Obviously, the OP feels that the demand was made in a rude way, but I do feel that if you think that there's nothing unusual about sharing photos after a vacation, then this might have just been a misunderstanding. If you thought that asking to share photos was a standard part of holidaying together, then I can see how you might ask in a way that came across as impolite.

3) The nature of holiday photographs

Clearly, for some people, artistic shots taken on vacation fall into a different category to standard holiday snaps. I don't particularly feel this way, but if I did, I'd explain that to my friend. However, I'm not convinced that this is what the OP feels, because in the first post they explain that they only uploaded photos with the friend in them. Unless the remainder were all "art", this seems to suggest that the OP was not making this distinction, but rather refusing to give their friend any photos, even snaps, that the friend was not an active part on. While this is obviously their prerogative, I don't think it is a particularly friendly thing to do.

Most of my close friends and I all have mid-range DSLR cameras, and most of us are reasonably good photographers. There have certainly been occasions on vacation (or even entire vacations) where someone has left their camera at home/in the hotel, as they didn't see the point in everyone bringing along expensive photographic equipment. It would never occur to us that someone would be unwilling to share any of their landscape or landmark shots.

4) The intent of use on the friend's part

Much has been mentioned on this thread about how this particular friend has plagiarised photographs shared by the OP. I can't actually find a reference to this, only to the fact that other people have done so. In either case, I think I would explain my motivation to my friend rather than just bean-dipping. If the concern is that the friend is going to put everything up on Facebook without accreditation, then I think it is better to explain that - say "I don't mind you getting copies of some of these, but could you not put them up on the internet?"

The OP makes a point of saying that they bean-dipped as a response to the request for further photos. There is a time and a place for bean-dipping, but I don't think that a reasonable request from a friend is the time to do it. It is not conducive to maintaining a close friendship. Far better, in my opinion, to explain your reasons, if the friendship is one you care about.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: bopper on January 02, 2013, 10:47:04 AM
I think I would say "I would like to go through my photos and send you links to the good ones.  You don't really want to wade through 650 photos!"


Also in the future you could say "I had trips where I go to lug all the equipment around and then the person asked for all the photos and then posted them on FB as though they were theirs. Hopefully that is not what you had in mind but since I have had people do that to me before I will respectfully decline.  I will make a photo album for you when I get back if you like and I can send you a link to any photos I post on line.  I do like to go through my photos and edit out the bad ones."
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: PastryGoddess on January 02, 2013, 10:57:42 AM
No one is assuming, the OP has said in a previous post that this person has taken credit for her photos in the past.

What I understood is that the friend posted the photo to facebook.  Lots of people post photos to facebook without the assumption understanding or implication that the poster took the photograph.  Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see that the friend affirmatively was saying, "Look at this awesome photo I took!"  That I would have a problem with.  But I absolutely understand posting something (I wouldn't, but I understand it as not malicious) like "look at how awesome the Grand Canyon is!"

It really doesn't matter how or in what manner the friend used to post the pictures before.  The fact is that the OP knows that if she gives him her pictures, he will take credit for them and OP is not ok with that.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: gramma dishes on January 02, 2013, 10:59:35 AM
I wonder if OP's friend is simply stuck in that mindset from film camera days, when people were more likely to give away most or all their photos from an event. But that's because:

With film, we're talking 24 or 36 or 48 photos, not hundreds;

Many photo processing outfits offered two sets of prints for the price of one. It was good for business, but it also encouraged people to share their prints ...


  You know, you may be right.  It's possible that he was in that mindset and really had no idea how many photographs she had taken, much less the effort she had put into it. 

I do remember getting double sets of prints and handing out the second set.  And it WAS rather expected that everyone would do that.  But even then, we had the chance to go through and weed out the embarrassingly awful ones!   ;)
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: Victim Of Fate on January 02, 2013, 11:01:50 AM
No one is assuming, the OP has said in a previous post that this person has taken credit for her photos in the past.

What I understood is that the friend posted the photo to facebook.  Lots of people post photos to facebook without the assumption understanding or implication that the poster took the photograph.  Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see that the friend affirmatively was saying, "Look at this awesome photo I took!"  That I would have a problem with.  But I absolutely understand posting something (I wouldn't, but I understand it as not malicious) like "look at how awesome the Grand Canyon is!"

It really doesn't matter how or in what manner the friend used to post the pictures before.  The fact is that the OP knows that if she gives him her pictures, he will take credit for them and OP is not ok with that.

Can I just check where the OP has said that - I did try looking for it, but I can't seem to find that post.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: TurtleDove on January 02, 2013, 11:39:06 AM
Can I just check where the OP has said that - I did try looking for it, but I can't seem to find that post.

This exactly.  I also did not see where the OP explained to the friend why she did not want to share photos, or addressed with any of the "facebook posters" that she didn't want them to do this.  And I did not see that the friend in the OP actually tried to take credit for any photos taken by the OP in the past - if he did, why did she not address this with him?  I feel like some posters are reading malice into the the friend's actions when really I think this is a miscommunication.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: snowdragon on January 02, 2013, 11:42:57 AM
Post 15 - she does not say it was this specific friend or another but that was her reasoning. Not that I think she has to explain wanting to keep what's hers
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: TurtleDove on January 02, 2013, 11:46:34 AM
Post 15 - she does not say it was this specific friend or another but that was her reasoning. Not that I think she has to explain wanting to keep what's hers

I think if she wants to preserve the relationship it would makes sense to explain.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: snowdragon on January 02, 2013, 11:48:47 AM
Post 15 - she does not say it was this specific friend or another but that was her reasoning. Not that I think she has to explain wanting to keep what's hers

I think if she wants to preserve the relationship it would makes sense to explain.

I think if HE wants to preserve the relationship, he should be able to take no  for answer or just not ask if he can't.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: Victim Of Fate on January 02, 2013, 11:54:45 AM
Post 15 - she does not say it was this specific friend or another but that was her reasoning. Not that I think she has to explain wanting to keep what's hers

I did see that post, but there she seems to imply that it was a different friend (or I assume that she would have mentioned it was the same friend in that post). And yet, several posters on this thread have stated outright that it was this friend who posted photos on Facebook without accrediting the OP.

Why I think that this is interesting is that many on this thread have written of the importance, in a friendship, of assuming the best of the other person. Yet others on this thread have jumped on the actually-never-stated fact that this friend posted photos taken by someone else and passed them off as his own. Which is kind of assuming the worst of someone.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: snowdragon on January 02, 2013, 11:57:31 AM
Post 15 - she does not say it was this specific friend or another but that was her reasoning. Not that I think she has to explain wanting to keep what's hers

I did see that post, but there she seems to imply that it was a different friend (or I assume that she would have mentioned it was the same friend in that post). And yet, several posters on this thread have stated outright that it was this friend who posted photos on Facebook without accrediting the OP.

Why I think that this is interesting is that many on this thread have written of the importance, in a friendship, of assuming the best of the other person. Yet others on this thread have jumped on the actually-never-stated fact that this friend posted photos taken by someone else and passed them off as his own. Which is kind of assuming the worst of someone.

  If one friend does it - it kind of wrecks your trust that the next one won't. 
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: TurtleDove on January 02, 2013, 12:03:32 PM
  If one friend does it - it kind of wrecks your trust that the next one won't.
With this reasoning no one over the age of 5 would have any friends and certainly would never date anyone ever!  :) 
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: Victim Of Fate on January 02, 2013, 12:06:46 PM
  If one friend does it - it kind of wrecks your trust that the next one won't.

Oh, I can see why it would affect the OP's decision to allow people to share her photos - though my own contention is that explaining this to a friend is far better for a friendship than simply saying "No" and then bean-dipping if the subject is brought up again.

But I a surprised so many posters misread that post as referring to the friend in the actual story, when the implication is the opposite.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: snowdragon on January 02, 2013, 12:12:26 PM
  If one friend does it - it kind of wrecks your trust that the next one won't.
With this reasoning no one over the age of 5 would have any friends and certainly would never date anyone ever!  :)

Umm, no. Just because you are willing to risk it...does not mean others are wrong for not being willing. Dropping out of this thread because it is obvious that only one view point here is worth respecting. The people who have the opposite view are 4 year olds. 
 
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: bloo on January 02, 2013, 12:13:44 PM
  If one friend does it - it kind of wrecks your trust that the next one won't.
With this reasoning no one over the age of 5 would have any friends and certainly would never date anyone ever!  :)

I disagree. There are a lot of people who don't loan things (books, dvd's, clothes, etc.)because of the careless behavior of one friend.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: TurtleDove on January 02, 2013, 12:21:44 PM
I thought my :) made it clear I was making a joking comment and certainly did not anticipate anyone would be offended!  At any rate, I think if the OP is basing her decision not to share photos on the behavior of someone other than the friend in the OP, it is not conducive to a good friendship to just say, "I'm not sharing with you. Bean dip."  I would imagine the friend would understand with the explanation but without it feels hurt.

Personally, though, I give people - and especially friends - clean slates and don't assume they will mistreat me simply because someone else mistreated me in the past.  I am not saying anyone who thinks differently is wrong. I  was saying that if we never trusted anyone because someone else at some time offended or hurt us...well, we would never trust anyone, and for me I need to trust my friends.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: Victim Of Fate on January 02, 2013, 12:23:36 PM
I disagree. There are a lot of people who don't loan things (books, dvd's, clothes, etc.)because of the careless behavior of one friend.

I agree, this does happen. But in those circumstances, if another friend says "Hey, can I borrow the DVD of that film we were talking about?", what does one do? Just say "no", or say "no, I have a rule about lending my DVDs because I've lost too many that way"? You don't have to do the latter, but isn't it a better option?
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: rashea on January 02, 2013, 12:29:27 PM
OP, I've finally managed to get through the thread.

To me, photos are a shared experience, but I respect that that isn't true for everyone. In some ways, going back to the recipe thread helped me to remember why I feel that way.

I don't think it would be rude for a friend to ask for your photos. Enough people see photos as something you share (at least from a shared experience) that asking doesn't seem over the top rude to me. Especially because photos can be easy to share and it isn't a case where only one person can have them at once. (Note: this is consistent with my belief that it isn't rude to ask someone for a recipe)

I do think the way he demanded rather than asked was rude. A quick, "hey, when you get home, I'd love to have some of the photos you took" would have gone a lot better. And then the OP could have made the distinction between what was "snapshot" and what was "art" or went home and decided not to share any.

I don't think that he has the right to demand an explanation, but I do think it would be wise to give one. This also fits with how I felt about recipes. "No" may be a complete sentence, but it's cold, and can leave the other person wondering why. This isn't required by etiquette, but it is recommended for the relationship. And I would absolutely understand why someone didn't feel we were as close if I gave them a stark "no" as an answer.

OP, I also think it's worth you mentioning it to someone you travel with. For you, this needs to be part of the pre-trip discussion that includes how much time you spend together and apart, who drives, who pays, etc. Just be upfront about the fact that you'll share select photos, but that they shouldn't count on getting all your shots.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: Amara on January 02, 2013, 12:43:57 PM
When I go somewhere on vacation (be it a day trip or several weeks) and take my Nikon camera and lenses I do not intend to shoot vacation photos. I intend to shoot art. Granted, I might will take a lot of photos to get the one or two that can be blown up and framed. But when I lug around heavy and expensive camera equipment I intend a specific purpose. To create, for me, fine art. Not reminders of time spent together there, though I will surely shoot some of those too because they are fun and they are good reminders; some of those I will gladly share. But if anyone asked me, let alone demanded, all my photos or even the ones that were the art I was going for (after seeing them on my walls) they would get a firm "no."



Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: bloo on January 02, 2013, 12:49:47 PM
I thought my :) made it clear I was making a joking comment and certainly did not anticipate anyone would be offended!  At any rate, I think if the OP is basing her decision not to share photos on the behavior of someone other than the friend in the OP, it is not conducive to a good friendship to just say, "I'm not sharing with you. Bean dip."  I would imagine the friend would understand with the explanation but without it feels hurt.

Personally, though, I give people - and especially friends - clean slates and don't assume they will mistreat me simply because someone else mistreated me in the past.  I am not saying anyone who thinks differently is wrong. I  was saying that if we never trusted anyone because someone else at some time offended or hurt us...well, we would never trust anyone, and for me I need to trust my friends.

Everyone should be so mature. But all of my friends, like me, have flaws. There are some I love and trust but just not with that *one* thing (insert whatever thing you want here). Some I don't trust their punctuality or what have you - small issues, nothing huge (huge would = no friendship at all).

I believe that expression 'love as if you've never been hurt before' but that does not negate caution. And there is nothing immature in one person deciding that caution means not giving out or loaning stuff. If I have anxiety about getting my stuff back, then I don't loan it out. I think I'm mature for recognizing that about myself. My teenage daughter has loaned out some of my clothes when her girlfriends needed it. I don't like it. I prefer my daughter not raid my closet but since we can share clothes it saves me money so I swallow it. But if her girlfriends borrow my clothes I have to worry about getting them back.

I do not offer my clothes for loan so I don't have to deal with the anxiety. There is one girlfriend I would loan to with the caveat 'don't tell anyone it's mine'.

I don't go around assuming, though, that every woman I could get close to would: steal my husband, steal from my purse, gossip about me, etc. until they've shown by their behaviors that would be the case.

Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: TurtleDove on January 02, 2013, 01:05:45 PM
And there is nothing immature in one person deciding that caution means not giving out or loaning stuff.

To clarify, I was not saying people who do not trust are immature.  I was saying that if we never trust people because someone else some other time hurt our feelings or offended us or _____, we will not have any friends because most (all?) people have been hurt by someone or another by the time they are five. 
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: drzim on January 02, 2013, 02:07:27 PM
 I belong to the "snapshot" camp.  When vacationing with friends, I would assume that photos would be shared.  With digital cameras being the norm these days, it is so easy to take multiple shots (no need to worry about wasting film, or developing time).  The OP admits that she is NOT a professional photographer and unless the OP was carting along special lights/reflectors and/or spending a long time setting up shots, how was the friend to know that she regarded her photos as "art" versus "snapshots"?  I don't think the friend was rude for assuming that the vacation photos would be shared.

My best friend is a professional photographer, and she uses her good camera a lot even when she's shooting for fun. So just the fact that a professional style camera with equipment was being used does not mean that the photos would be off limits for general sharing. I've watched my friend work and there is a big difference in how she shoots fun vs. job.   Job means a significant amount of work for set up and lighting, or several series of test shots to determine the best angles, natural lighting, etc.  Fun means point and shoot, and picking out the best photos afterwards.  It seems like the OP was shooting for fun, and was pleasantly surprised at the quality of some of her shots.

That being said, the OP does have the right to keep her photos to herself.  But if she values the friendship, an explanation is needed. 

I would not be upset if a friend refused to share all her vacation photos with me, but explained it was because she wanted to use the photos semi-professionally and would be willing to make me a photo book. 

I would not be upset if the friend gave me photos, but made it a condition that I could not post them on any online site.

I would not be upset if the friend told me that she wanted a chance to look through all the photos first, edit them, etc.  Then she would be able to give them to me or upload them to a photosharing site where I could download them.

I would be upset if I asked for vacation photos, and all I got was the ones of myself.  Then, if I asked for the rest, I got nothing but bean-dip.

Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: MariaE on January 02, 2013, 02:16:37 PM
That being said, the OP does have the right to keep her photos to herself.  But if she values the friendship, an explanation is needed. 

Quoted for truth. Etiquette may say that "No is a complete sentence", but in a friendship it just isn't so.

I would not be upset if a friend refused to share all her vacation photos with me, but explained it was because she wanted to use the photos semi-professionally and would be willing to make me a photo book. 

I would not be upset if the friend gave me photos, but made it a condition that I could not post them on any online site.

I would not be upset if the friend told me that she wanted a chance to look through all the photos first, edit them, etc.  Then she would be able to give them to me or upload them to a photosharing site where I could download them.

I would be upset if I asked for vacation photos, and all I got was the ones of myself.  Then, if I asked for the rest, I got nothing but bean-dip.
POD!
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: PastryGoddess on January 02, 2013, 02:23:22 PM
However her friend didn't ask, he demanded ...and that changes the whole nature of the interaction. 

Secondly he whined multiple times about not getting exactly what he wanted, and frankly if an adult is going to whine like a child I'm going to assume they are not ready to have an adult conversation.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: Victim Of Fate on January 03, 2013, 06:28:03 AM
However her friend didn't ask, he demanded ...and that changes the whole nature of the interaction. 

Secondly he whined multiple times about not getting exactly what he wanted, and frankly if an adult is going to whine like a child I'm going to assume they are not ready to have an adult conversation.

But, as I stated in an earlier post, a "demand" can appear that way because the demander doesn't realise it's not part of the demandee's standard behaviour.

For instance, the friend in the OP said "go ahead and upload all your pictures to my ipad". That doesn't strike me as a particularly rude turn of phrase if your assumption (based on your experience) was that friends naturally share all the photos they take on a joint vacation.

If, on the other hand, your experience is that photos are a personal thing that are taken for your eyes only, I can see how that phrase would come across as a demand.

And "whining" multiple times seems to me a direct result of a close friend offering bean dip in lieu of an actual explanation - neither is particularly mature behaviour.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: bloo on January 03, 2013, 07:03:45 AM
However her friend didn't ask, he demanded ...and that changes the whole nature of the interaction. 

Secondly he whined multiple times about not getting exactly what he wanted, and frankly if an adult is going to whine like a child I'm going to assume they are not ready to have an adult conversation.

But, as I stated in an earlier post, a "demand" can appear that way because the demander doesn't realise it's not part of the demandee's standard behaviour.

For instance, the friend in the OP said "go ahead and upload all your pictures to my ipad". That doesn't strike me as a particularly rude turn of phrase if your assumption (based on your experience) was that friends naturally share all the photos they take on a joint vacation.

If, on the other hand, your experience is that photos are a personal thing that are taken for your eyes only, I can see how that phrase would come across as a demand.

And "whining" multiple times seems to me a direct result of a close friend offering bean dip in lieu of an actual explanation - neither is particularly mature behaviour.

You had me until the bolded.

Whining is immature.

Bean-dipping is not.

The OP was not immature for bean-dipping. Her friend was either particularly dense or entitled to ignore her unstated but obvious lack of desire to turn over all her pictures right then.

The OP was particularly generous, IMO, ln going through her pix right then to give some to the friend.

The OP can now leave things as they are or she can go back to Whiner and say, "Remember, Whiner, at the end of the vacay when we discussed my pictures and your desire for them? About that, see this is how I feel about my photos..."

Only the OP can really know which option is better for current/future dealings with Whiner.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: MariaE on January 03, 2013, 07:33:58 AM
However her friend didn't ask, he demanded ...and that changes the whole nature of the interaction. 

Secondly he whined multiple times about not getting exactly what he wanted, and frankly if an adult is going to whine like a child I'm going to assume they are not ready to have an adult conversation.

But, as I stated in an earlier post, a "demand" can appear that way because the demander doesn't realise it's not part of the demandee's standard behaviour.

For instance, the friend in the OP said "go ahead and upload all your pictures to my ipad". That doesn't strike me as a particularly rude turn of phrase if your assumption (based on your experience) was that friends naturally share all the photos they take on a joint vacation.

If, on the other hand, your experience is that photos are a personal thing that are taken for your eyes only, I can see how that phrase would come across as a demand.

And "whining" multiple times seems to me a direct result of a close friend offering bean dip in lieu of an actual explanation - neither is particularly mature behaviour.

You had me until the bolded.

Whining is immature.

Bean-dipping is not.

The OP was not immature for bean-dipping. Her friend was either particularly dense or entitled to ignore her unstated but obvious lack of desire to turn over all her pictures right then.

She wasn't mature either. I agree, whining is always immature, but bean-dipping is not always mature. Sometimes it just is.

And in this particular case, I actually think it was rude. Rudeness as a response to direct immaturity perhaps, but rudeness nonetheless.

(Mind you, I am not saying the OP was rude for refusing to share all her photos. Just rude in how she went about it.)
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: Victim Of Fate on January 03, 2013, 08:20:46 AM
You had me until the bolded.

Whining is immature.

Bean-dipping is not.

The OP was not immature for bean-dipping. Her friend was either particularly dense or entitled to ignore her unstated but obvious lack of desire to turn over all her pictures right then.

The OP was particularly generous, IMO, ln going through her pix right then to give some to the friend.

The OP can now leave things as they are or she can go back to Whiner and say, "Remember, Whiner, at the end of the vacay when we discussed my pictures and your desire for them? About that, see this is how I feel about my photos..."

Only the OP can really know which option is better for current/future dealings with Whiner.

Thing is, "whining" is a subjective description - people very rarely believe themselves to be whining, it's more often perceived by others. And what one person may consider to be whining, others may consider to be "trying again".

Bean-dipping can be an appropriate, mature response to certain people in certain situations. But in other situations, it can lead to confusion as well as the breaking down of a relationship. If, as a response to a request for photos, someone gets told "No" followed by bean-dipping, I can see why they might think "maybe I caught her in a bad mood", "maybe she didn't understand what I meant", "maybe she'll have changed her mind", any one of which would be cause for the friend to re-ask the question, which the OP might then consider "whining".
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: Venus193 on January 03, 2013, 08:33:21 AM
I may or may not have said this upthread or elsewhere, but now that I've had my morning caffeine I think I can state it better:

The ease of photography both in execution and delivery is -- in some people's minds -- making it so easy they no longer consider it to be Art.  They don't get that the photographer with a sense of art can take great photos with even a simple camera because great photos require a combination of:


Not everyone can do this even with expensive equipment.  The above elements are lost on many if not most people and/or they don't have even the minimal patience needed to take great photos.  That is why people who work at taking great pictures need to protect their work product even if they're not paid to do it.

A person who has been burned once can be very gun-shy about sharing photos or anything else.  If the person making the request demand has a history of doing this to others or if the photographer has been previously burned, their position on this must be respected.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: TurtleDove on January 03, 2013, 08:43:54 AM
The issue I have is that I don't see where the OP explained her position to the friend.  Had she done that, my view would change.  As it is, I think the OP was at fault for the miscommunication and bordeline rude to her friend (and not because she wouldn't share the photos, but because she wouldn't explain why not when it likely would have prevented any hurt feelings from the outset).  I still don't understand why the OP went about it this way.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: bloo on January 03, 2013, 08:44:43 AM
However her friend didn't ask, he demanded ...and that changes the whole nature of the interaction. 

Secondly he whined multiple times about not getting exactly what he wanted, and frankly if an adult is going to whine like a child I'm going to assume they are not ready to have an adult conversation.

But, as I stated in an earlier post, a "demand" can appear that way because the demander doesn't realise it's not part of the demandee's standard behaviour.

For instance, the friend in the OP said "go ahead and upload all your pictures to my ipad". That doesn't strike me as a particularly rude turn of phrase if your assumption (based on your experience) was that friends naturally share all the photos they take on a joint vacation.

If, on the other hand, your experience is that photos are a personal thing that are taken for your eyes only, I can see how that phrase would come across as a demand.

And "whining" multiple times seems to me a direct result of a close friend offering bean dip in lieu of an actual explanation - neither is particularly mature behaviour.

You had me until the bolded.

Whining is immature.

Bean-dipping is not.

The OP was not immature for bean-dipping. Her friend was either particularly dense or entitled to ignore her unstated but obvious lack of desire to turn over all her pictures right then.

She wasn't mature either. I agree, whining is always immature, but bean-dipping is not always mature. Sometimes it just is.

And in this particular case, I actually think it was rude. Rudeness as a response to direct immaturity perhaps, but rudeness nonetheless.

(Mind you, I am not saying the OP was rude for refusing to share all her photos. Just rude in how she went about it.)

I take from this that your opinion is that the OP is immature with rude behavior. I disagree.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: bloo on January 03, 2013, 08:46:58 AM
You had me until the bolded.

Whining is immature.

Bean-dipping is not.

The OP was not immature for bean-dipping. Her friend was either particularly dense or entitled to ignore her unstated but obvious lack of desire to turn over all her pictures right then.

The OP was particularly generous, IMO, ln going through her pix right then to give some to the friend.

The OP can now leave things as they are or she can go back to Whiner and say, "Remember, Whiner, at the end of the vacay when we discussed my pictures and your desire for them? About that, see this is how I feel about my photos..."

Only the OP can really know which option is better for current/future dealings with Whiner.

Thing is, "whining" is a subjective description - people very rarely believe themselves to be whining, it's more often perceived by others. And what one person may consider to be whining, others may consider to be "trying again".

Bean-dipping can be an appropriate, mature response to certain people in certain situations. But in other situations, it can lead to confusion as well as the breaking down of a relationship. If, as a response to a request for photos, someone gets told "No" followed by bean-dipping, I can see why they might think "maybe I caught her in a bad mood", "maybe she didn't understand what I meant", "maybe she'll have changed her mind", any one of which would be cause for the friend to re-ask the question, which the OP might then consider "whining".

I see what you're saying and I agree that could be the case. There's nothing wrong with an actual explanation. But, from the OP, I see nothing wrong with bean-dipping the whiner, either.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: TurtleDove on January 03, 2013, 08:49:45 AM
I see what you're saying and I agree that could be the case. There's nothing wrong with an actual explanation. But, from the OP, I see nothing wrong with bean-dipping the whiner, either.

My perspective is that all "whining" could have been prevented by either 1) the OP explaining her position before the vacation or 2) the OP explaining why she wouldn't share when the friend asked the first time.  The friend has no idea why the OP won't share at this point, and I still don't understand how bean dip is helpful to the situation or the relationship. 
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: bloo on January 03, 2013, 09:00:12 AM
I see what you're saying and I agree that could be the case. There's nothing wrong with an actual explanation. But, from the OP, I see nothing wrong with bean-dipping the whiner, either.

My perspective is that all "whining" could have been prevented by either 1) the OP explaining her position before the vacation or 2) the OP explaining why she wouldn't share when the friend asked the first time.  The friend has no idea why the OP won't share at this point, and I still don't understand how bean dip is helpful to the situation or the relationship.

True and my perspective is that all the 'whining' could have been prevented by the friend not feeling entitled to the OP's pictures and respecting her re-direction, if not the first, then at least the second or third time.

So really we could just go in circles with a chicken/egg discussion. We just disagree.

While I'm generally direct with my friends there are times when I've felt it necessary to beandip, even repeatedly depending on the friend/acquaintance I'm dealing with.

So the OP didn't think to do it beforehand and it's up to her if she wants to do it now. I still don't think she has to but if the situation comes up again, then your #1 is an excellent idea.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: camlan on January 03, 2013, 09:10:20 AM
But explaining the OP's position on photograph sharing could just open up a  lot of arguments by the friend as to why her position is wrong. Anytime you offer an explanation, you open yourself up to a lot of nit-picking about why your position is wrong. It is sometimes the safer course to state your position without an explanation. "I'm sorry, I don't share my pictures. But for you, as a friend, I'll give you the pictures that you are in."

I'm a bit surprised that someone would break off a friendship over pictures. If I ask a friend for copies of pictures or a recipe or something similar, things that the majority of my friends would share without hesitation, I admit that I'm startled to get a "no" in response.

But I wouldn't break a friendship off over that "no." Instead, I'd realize that this friend has different opinions about sharing pictures or recipes. And that's something I just have to accept in order to maintain the friendship, just as the friend is probably accepting certain aspects of my behavior that aren't exactly in line with his/her feelings and beliefs.

Now, if the not-sharing was about more than just pictures or recipes, or if there were other aspects of the friend's behavior that started to bother me--let's say the friend never chips in gas money when being given a ride, never tips at restaurants, never shares anything, spreads mean gossip, etc.--then the not-sharing of pictures would become one part of a large set of reasons why I'd break off the friendship.

But to break off an otherwise good friendship due to one quirk of not sharing photographs seems a bit harsh to me.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: MariaE on January 03, 2013, 09:15:40 AM
She wasn't mature either. I agree, whining is always immature, but bean-dipping is not always mature. Sometimes it just is.

And in this particular case, I actually think it was rude. Rudeness as a response to direct immaturity perhaps, but rudeness nonetheless.

(Mind you, I am not saying the OP was rude for refusing to share all her photos. Just rude in how she went about it.)

I take from this that your opinion is that the OP is immature with rude behavior. I disagree.

I'm not sure how you got that from what I wrote. Mature/immature isn't a black/white issue. There are shades of grey inbetween. I don't think the OP's actions were mature. I don't think the OP's actions were immature. They just were.

I do think the actions were rude, but that's got nothing to do with being mature/immature.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: Two Ravens on January 03, 2013, 09:28:01 AM
But explaining the OP's position on photograph sharing could just open up a  lot of arguments by the friend as to why her position is wrong. Anytime you offer an explanation, you open yourself up to a lot of nit-picking about why your position is wrong. It is sometimes the safer course to state your position without an explanation. "I'm sorry, I don't share my pictures. But for you, as a friend, I'll give you the pictures that you are in."

I'm a bit surprised that someone would break off a friendship over pictures. If I ask a friend for copies of pictures or a recipe or something similar, things that the majority of my friends would share without hesitation, I admit that I'm startled to get a "no" in response.

But I wouldn't break a friendship off over that "no." Instead, I'd realize that this friend has different opinions about sharing pictures or recipes. And that's something I just have to accept in order to maintain the friendship, just as the friend is probably accepting certain aspects of my behavior that aren't exactly in line with his/her feelings and beliefs.

Now, if the not-sharing was about more than just pictures or recipes, or if there were other aspects of the friend's behavior that started to bother me--let's say the friend never chips in gas money when being given a ride, never tips at restaurants, never shares anything, spreads mean gossip, etc.--then the not-sharing of pictures would become one part of a large set of reasons why I'd break off the friendship.

But to break off an otherwise good friendship due to one quirk of not sharing photographs seems a bit harsh to me.

I don't think anyone has said that they would cut someone off over something like this. People have mentioned declining to vacation with someone, which I think is understandable, or stepping back from the friendship, but not outright dropping someone.

As you point out, sometimes these types of situations can be eye-opening, as you suddenly realize that you and your friend have very different values when it comes to things like sharing, and notions of friendship, and thus people who are more open withdraw to protect themselves from feeling rejected and people with stricter boundaries withdraw to avoid feeling trampled.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: BuffaloFang on January 03, 2013, 09:48:15 AM
I'm actually really quite baffled by the people who say the OP is off to not share her photos because it was a joint vacation.

Since it was a joint vacation and friend *was there*, why didn't he just take the same photo with his iPad, and not have to request the OPs photos? Is it maybe because the OP has taken the time and money to invest in her photography?

Whether or not she's a paid professional makes no difference - this is her artistic creation.  I draw and paint for fun, and have only once or twice been paid for my paintings.  That doesn't mean I should happily scan all of my paintings to give a digital copy to any of my friends who ask. 

I think if it's a friendship worth saving (though if a friendship falls apart because a friend refuses to allow you to keep your creative work, I'd be re-evaluating it), I'd watermark the images and then give them to him. But I don't think the OP is obligated to.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: Victim Of Fate on January 03, 2013, 10:05:28 AM
I'm actually really quite baffled by the people who say the OP is off to not share her photos because it was a joint vacation.

Since it was a joint vacation and friend *was there*, why didn't he just take the same photo with his iPad, and not have to request the OPs photos? Is it maybe because the OP has taken the time and money to invest in her photography?

Whether or not she's a paid professional makes no difference - this is her artistic creation.  I draw and paint for fun, and have only once or twice been paid for my paintings.  That doesn't mean I should happily scan all of my paintings to give a digital copy to any of my friends who ask. 

I think if it's a friendship worth saving (though if a friendship falls apart because a friend refuses to allow you to keep your creative work, I'd be re-evaluating it), I'd watermark the images and then give them to him. But I don't think the OP is obligated to.

I think the reasons why some people think the OP is a bit off are:

1) A lot of people naturally expect photos to be shared after a joint holiday. This is essentially a micro-cultural thing - if this behaviour is commonplace in your social circle/family, then you would consider it strange/unfriendly if someone thought this unacceptable.

2) The OP - and several others on this thread - think that bean-dipping was the appropriate response to subsequent requests. I think it's rude - flat-out rude. Bean-dipping is appropriate when someone behaves in an outrageous way but you don't want a confrontation. When it is a response to a friend asking a reasonable question, I think it's borderline PA.

Regarding the bolded text, it may be the case. There have certainly been occasions on holiday when I have had my kit with me and friends with a smartphone have not taken photos and later asked if they could get a copy of mine. I don't think it's rude. What's the point of a less able photographer taking a photo with an inferior camera if there's already going to be a better photo of the same image?
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: TurtleDove on January 03, 2013, 10:10:47 AM
Some posters seem to be painting the friend in a very unfavorable light, as though he actively was trying to harm the OP by his "entitled" behavior of refusing to intuit that the OP did not want to share vacation photos even though she never explained this to him(some posters are even saying that he simply wanted to take advantage of her expensive equipment)!  I don't understand why the OP would be friends with, let alone vacation with, someone who is so awful!  I really think the friend did not have any malicious or rude intentions but this was a miscommunication that could have been prevented or solved if the OP simply explained where she was coming from instead of bean-dipping. And if the friend truly is an awful person, then the OP should just drop him.  But I don't think that's the case.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: miranova on January 03, 2013, 10:18:17 AM
"I'm sorry, I don't share my pictures. But for you, as a friend, I'll give you the pictures that you are in."


Did the OP ever actually say this?  If she did, I think that's probably sufficient.  From my understanding, she never even clearly said no, she just avoided the question.  Which is definitely rude, in my opinion.  I think refusing to give a direct answer to a reasonable question by someone you consider to be a friend is rude.  Just answer the question politely.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: CluelessBride on January 03, 2013, 10:33:09 AM
The thing about bean-dipping is that while it may be technically okay from an etiquette standpoint, it may have relationship consequences.

For example, your best friend invites you to her wedding, but you can't attend because you have a major surgery scheduled for that day and can't move it. Any decent friend would understand you needing to decline for that reason. But if in response to the wedding invite you said, "I'm sorry I can't make it. Have you seen the latest Twilight movie?"

And then when the friend asks again (perhaps confused by the bean-dip, or thinking you are joking because her original request seemed reasonable enough to at least receive a reason with a decline, or hoping maybe there was a misunderstanding or something you could do to change the answer), if you keep saying no and offer up pointless bean-dip instead of an explanation. Because her only reasonable conclusion is that she isn't a good enough friend to warrant an explanation.

Now, I know that asking for pictures isn't the same as a wedding. But, while I can understand someone wanting to keep some or even all of their pictures to themselves, I think the request for pictures of a shared experience is reasonable enough that a friend is entitled to an explanation. If they balk at the explanation, then is the time to whip out the bean-dip.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: GrammarNerd on January 03, 2013, 12:44:24 PM
I'm actually really quite baffled by the people who say the OP is off to not share her photos because it was a joint vacation.

Since it was a joint vacation and friend *was there*, why didn't he just take the same photo with his iPad, and not have to request the OPs photos? Is it maybe because the OP has taken the time and money to invest in her photography?

Whether or not she's a paid professional makes no difference - this is her artistic creation.  I draw and paint for fun, and have only once or twice been paid for my paintings.  That doesn't mean I should happily scan all of my paintings to give a digital copy to any of my friends who ask. 

I think if it's a friendship worth saving (though if a friendship falls apart because a friend refuses to allow you to keep your creative work, I'd be re-evaluating it), I'd watermark the images and then give them to him. But I don't think the OP is obligated to.

Yes, and let's not dogpile on the OP b/c she didn't say upfront that she wasn't going to share.  Perhaps this scenario never entered her mind.  And let's not forget that the 'friend' didn't make any effort to take his OWN pictures.  For all the OP knew, the friend wasn't interested in pictures b/c he didn't take any of his own.  After a whole vacation of him not taking any pictures, I can totally see why she felt blindsided when he handed her his ipad and "requested" all of her pictures.  My first thought would be "Are you crazy?"  and my second thought would be, "If you wanted pictures, then why in the world didn't you take ANY of your own?"  (Or ASK if you could have mine?).  After I picked my jaw off the floor, then I can imagine that a feeling of being used would begin to set in, since it certainly seemed like the 'friend' had every intention of using me as his personal photographer from the start, without cluing me into that fact.

And on the topic of sharing, it doesn't seem like the friend was trying to share.  He could have taken some with the ipad.  Yes, I know the lens isn't the greatest, but sometimes it's nice to have them on there in that format for emailing or texting purposes.  But he just presumably intended to glom onto her photos (and all of them!) without offering to share any of his own.

Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: TurtleDove on January 03, 2013, 12:57:46 PM
Yes, and let's not dogpile on the OP b/c she didn't say upfront that she wasn't going to share.  Perhaps this scenario never entered her mind.  And let's not forget that the 'friend' didn't make any effort to take his OWN pictures.  For all the OP knew, the friend wasn't interested in pictures b/c he didn't take any of his own.  After a whole vacation of him not taking any pictures, I can totally see why she felt blindsided when he handed her his ipad and "requested" all of her pictures.  My first thought would be "Are you crazy?"  and my second thought would be, "If you wanted pictures, then why in the world didn't you take ANY of your own?"  (Or ASK if you could have mine?).  After I picked my jaw off the floor, then I can imagine that a feeling of being used would begin to set in, since it certainly seemed like the 'friend' had every intention of using me as his personal photographer from the start, without cluing me into that fact.

And on the topic of sharing, it doesn't seem like the friend was trying to share.  He could have taken some with the ipad.   Yes, I know the lens isn't the greatest, but sometimes it's nice to have them on there in that format for emailing or texting purposes.  But he just presumably intended to glom onto her photos (and all of them!) without offering to share any of his own.

RE the bolded portions: I don't see any dogpiling and the point many of us are making is that the OP had at least two opportunities to explain where she was coming from (a. before the trip or b. when the friend asked for the photos) and she chose to bean dip for some  reason.  I didn't see anyone say her problem was only in failing to explain before the trip.  Also, the OP says the friend had his iphone to take photos.  I didn't see where he deliberately didn't take photos or failed/refused to share.  I don't understand the villianization of the friend.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: LeveeWoman on January 03, 2013, 01:52:13 PM
"I'm sorry, I don't share my pictures. But for you, as a friend, I'll give you the pictures that you are in."


Did the OP ever actually say this?  If she did, I think that's probably sufficient.  From my understanding, she never even clearly said no, she just avoided the question.  Which is definitely rude, in my opinion.  I think refusing to give a direct answer to a reasonable question by someone you consider to be a friend is rude.  Just answer the question politely.

According to her fist post, pickles50 actually gave him the photographs of him.

And, she did give him a direct answer when she "politely declined" to give him all 650 photographs.

Also according to her fist post, she's planning to make him a photo-album.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: miranova on January 03, 2013, 02:12:46 PM
"I'm sorry, I don't share my pictures. But for you, as a friend, I'll give you the pictures that you are in."


Did the OP ever actually say this?  If she did, I think that's probably sufficient.  From my understanding, she never even clearly said no, she just avoided the question.  Which is definitely rude, in my opinion.  I think refusing to give a direct answer to a reasonable question by someone you consider to be a friend is rude.  Just answer the question politely.

According to her fist post, pickles50 actually gave him the photographs of him.

And, she did give him a direct answer when she "politely declined" to give him all 650 photographs.

Also according to her fist post, she's planning to make him a photo-album.

I went back and read.  I do see the phrase "politely declined" but in reading the entire post it still comes across as she was not really being clear.  Especially when she took the ipod and appeared to be giving the photos and only when she gave it back did he realize that only the photos of him were there.  Isn't it more efficient and polite to say upfront "I'd rather not give you everything before I go through them.  I want to go through everything first.  I'll give you (insert whatever you are willing to do here, be it photo book, photos of him, etc) when I get a chance".  Instead it kind of reads like a bait and switch.  She was annoyed, but to avoid saying no or having a difficult conversation, took the ipad and did some stuff and gave it back and let him go through it to see that it was only the photos of himself.  If that's what you are willing to do, why not just say that upfront?  I think the OP is the one who made this drag out by not being more honest and upfront when the request/demand (whatever it was) was initially made.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: LeveeWoman on January 03, 2013, 02:26:32 PM
"I'm sorry, I don't share my pictures. But for you, as a friend, I'll give you the pictures that you are in."


Did the OP ever actually say this?  If she did, I think that's probably sufficient.  From my understanding, she never even clearly said no, she just avoided the question.  Which is definitely rude, in my opinion.  I think refusing to give a direct answer to a reasonable question by someone you consider to be a friend is rude.  Just answer the question politely.

According to her fist post, pickles50 actually gave him the photographs of him.

And, she did give him a direct answer when she "politely declined" to give him all 650 photographs.

Also according to her fist post, she's planning to make him a photo-album.

I went back and read.  I do see the phrase "politely declined" but in reading the entire post it still comes across as she was not really being clear.  Especially when she took the ipod and appeared to be giving the photos and only when she gave it back did he realize that only the photos of him were there.  Isn't it more efficient and polite to say upfront "I'd rather not give you everything before I go through them.  I want to go through everything first.  I'll give you (insert whatever you are willing to do here, be it photo book, photos of him, etc) when I get a chance".  Instead it kind of reads like a bait and switch.  She was annoyed, but to avoid saying no or having a difficult conversation, took the ipad and did some stuff and gave it back and let him go through it to see that it was only the photos of himself.  If that's what you are willing to do, why not just say that upfront?  I think the OP is the one who made this drag out by not being more honest and upfront when the request/demand (whatever it was) was initially made.

I believe pickles50 more than adequately explained why she doesn't engage in such discussions so I'll let her words speak for themselves.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: TurtleDove on January 03, 2013, 02:49:43 PM
I believe pickles50 more than adequately explained why she doesn't engage in such discussions so I'll let her words speak for themselves.

I cannot imagine being friends with someone with whom I would want to go on vacation but I would not trust to not be a jerk if I explained why I did not want to share my photos with him.  I think that's why I am having such a hard time understanding the OP's motives, and the harsh villainization of the friend by some posters.  If he's a friend, I think the OP was wrong to not just talk to him about it and explain so he didn't have the "huh?" feeling a lot of us got from the OP.  If he's not a friend, why did the OP go on vacation with him?  It seems like if he is a friend, it shouldn't have been and issue, and if he is not a friend, it wouldn't be an issue.  I just don't get it.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: LeveeWoman on January 03, 2013, 02:54:57 PM
I believe pickles50 more than adequately explained why she doesn't engage in such discussions so I'll let her words speak for themselves.

I cannot imagine being friends with someone with whom I would want to go on vacation but I would not trust to not be a jerk if I explained why I did not want to share my photos with him.  I think that's why I am having such a hard time understanding the OP's motives, and the harsh villainization of the friend by some posters.  If he's a friend, I think the OP was wrong to not just talk to him about it and explain so he didn't have the "huh?" feeling a lot of us got from the OP.  If he's not a friend, why did the OP go on vacation with him?  It seems like if he is a friend, it shouldn't have been and issue, and if he is not a friend, it wouldn't be an issue.  I just don't get it.

The first four posts explain why she doesn't share her digital photographs as well as why she does not go into explaining why ahead of time.

http://www.etiquettehell.com/smf/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;u=18061
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: TurtleDove on January 03, 2013, 03:14:55 PM

The first four posts explain why she doesn't share her digital photographs as well as why she does not go into explaining why ahead of time.

http://www.etiquettehell.com/smf/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;u=18061

And again, I don't understand why the OP would be friends with someone to whom she could not simply explain what she posted here.  It isn't that I think she is wrong for not sharing the photos (I disagree, but reasonable minds can disagree), it is that I do not understand why the bean dipping toward a confused friend who personally had not harmed the OP.  It seems like the OP was expecting her friend to read her mind about why she wasn't sharing the photos and from we've been told here, he know way of knowing why she said she would not share the photos. 
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: ladyknight1 on January 03, 2013, 07:34:34 PM
I think this discussion has reached its limit. Some understand the OP and her decisions/reasioning and some don't.
Title: Re: Another vacation etiquette question
Post by: bloo on January 03, 2013, 08:14:31 PM
I think this discussion has reached its limit. Some understand the OP and her decisions/reasioning and some don't.

Agreed. It's been fruitful and enlightening but that's a pretty good, succinct analysis.