Etiquette Hell

General Etiquette => Family and Children => Topic started by: shygirl on January 31, 2013, 08:57:45 AM

Title: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: shygirl on January 31, 2013, 08:57:45 AM
I usually try to avoid going to the grocery store with my 2-year old son, but sometimes I just have to do it.  If I do have to go with him, and it's going to be a long trip, he sits in the cart and I feed him french fries one at a time to keep him quiet.

If it's a "just run in and get 1 item" type of trip, I let him walk beside me.  He doesn't run around wildly, but will stay within a few steps of me.  Unfortunately, he hasn't yet learned that he needs to look where he is going, so sometimes he will start walking towards another person or cart.  When that happens, I speak up a bit and tell him to watch where he's going and come back to me.

Sometimes, he'll start heading towards a moving cart, and the person with the cart also doesn't see my son.  Actually, even if the person does see my son, my son is still moving towards the cart, head-first, so then I yell out "Watch out!" to get his attention and make him stop.

I wonder if the person with the cart thinks I'm talking to them and not my son?  A few times I've said to the person with my cart that I was yelling at the kid and not her, so she doesn't think I was yelling at her.

A few times I'm busy telling my son that he needs to watch where he is going (WHEN is this lesson going to sink in?  You'd think after running into walls, doors and people for the past few months, he would have learned by now.), and the person with the cart keeps on moving, so I don't manage to tell her anything.

What would you think if you heard someone yell "Watch out!", kind of in your direction?  Am I rude?
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: LeveeWoman on January 31, 2013, 09:01:14 AM
I think the rude part is letting the kid get in the way of people with carts. What if he doesn't stop and the other person doesn't see him? I know I'd be devestated if I hit a little kid, and I'd be quite angry at the parent who put him in harm's way.
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: lowspark on January 31, 2013, 09:06:18 AM
Yeah I agree. If he has not yet mastered the art of staying out of the way of carts & people, you need to control him. So either hold his hand, or go ahead and seat him in a cart even if it's just one or two items to be picked up.

To answer your specific question, whether I think you're calling out to me to watch out or to your son would probably depend on where you were looking and your tone of voice.
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: Perfect Circle on January 31, 2013, 09:06:52 AM
You need to at least hold his hand until you are confident he isn't going to walk into people or carts.
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: Honeypickle on January 31, 2013, 09:08:53 AM
Why don't you try saying "Son's Name, be careful" or "Son's Name, watch out" rather than just "Watch out"? Otherwise you do run the risk of other adults thinking you are talking to them.
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: mmswm on January 31, 2013, 09:19:20 AM
I know this is a "controversial" thing, but have you considered toddler leashes?    My kids loved them.  They gave the kids a little bit of freedom, while still allowing me some control over where they were going.  I found that my kids were generally much happier when I used them over a stroller or holding my hand.

As to your question, I agree with <son's name>, watch out! instead of just "watch out".
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: Jones on January 31, 2013, 09:25:24 AM
Use your son's name, and apologize to other.shoppers when he inconveniences them. As a side note, have you had his vision checked? It sounds like he's running into a lot of objects.
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: shygirl on January 31, 2013, 09:26:22 AM
Yeah I agree. If he has not yet mastered the art of staying out of the way of carts & people, you need to control him. So either hold his hand, or go ahead and seat him in a cart even if it's just one or two items to be picked up.

To answer your specific question, whether I think you're calling out to me to watch out or to your son would probably depend on where you were looking and your tone of voice.

Unfortunately, he starts screaming when I hold his hand at the grocery store.  He also screams if I leash him.  The only way I can get him to sit in the cart is to bribe him with french fries, and I really don't want to do that for what amounts to a 5 minute shopping trip.

Why don't you try saying "Son's Name, be careful" or "Son's Name, watch out" rather than just "Watch out"? Otherwise you do run the risk of other adults thinking you are talking to them.

I do say his name, but sometimes I forget.   If it's really crowded at the grocery store, I will carry him, but then it's a little difficult to carry some groceries too.

Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: mmswm on January 31, 2013, 09:32:18 AM
I agree with the advise to get his vision checked if you haven't already done so. 

I know this isn't a parenting forum, but have you tried going on "practice runs" with him during times of day when the store isn't so crowded?  Drive to the store.  When you get out of the car, but before you get inside, explain to him that you're practicing good store behavior, and what your expectations are (stay by mommy, hold on to the cart, etc.)  Then spend a few minutes (maybe 5) walking up and down 2 or 3 aisles.  Park the cart and leave when you're done. Don't actually buy anything during these practice trips.  If he does a good job you can celebrate with a cookie or a trip to the park or whatever. That will help when you're really in a hurry or when you have to look away from him to select your items.
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: delabela on January 31, 2013, 09:34:18 AM
Ah, 2 year olds and public.  One of my children really hates holding hands, but he's at an age where he just has to if we are in an environment like a grocery store.  I would say you should probably work on that piece.  I wouldn't be upset if you yelled "watch out" in my direction in a store, as it would probably be pretty obvious what was happening. 
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: jaxsue on January 31, 2013, 09:38:00 AM
I think the rude part is letting the kid get in the way of people with carts. What if he doesn't stop and the other person doesn't see him? I know I'd be devestated if I hit a little kid, and I'd be quite angry at the parent who put him in harm's way.

ITA.

As a vendor (before ankle break, anyway) I spent 30 hrs in several Walmarts a week. Of course I was careful around other shoppers, especially young children. They are unpredictable, they can dart without warning. I can't count how many times I've had to do a quick manuever to avoid having a collision with a child.

OP, I raised 2 boys and took them shopping with me on a regular basis. I found it was easiest, at such a young age, to put them in a grocery cart, even for a small shopping trip.
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: Hmmmmm on January 31, 2013, 09:40:21 AM
I think a general yelling of watch out is ineffective and should be only used is trying to warn someone who's name you don't know.  Much better to call your sons name.  But I really think since this has occurred so often for you that you are posting about it, you probably need to be holding his hand, carrying him, or putting him in a cart. The grocery store can be as dangerous as the parking lot for a toddler and Im sure you wouldn't allow him to walk there uncontrolled.
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: bah12 on January 31, 2013, 09:41:18 AM
"Watch out" is a reaction and I think that if someone thinks you are being rude for saying it to a 2 year old, there is something wrong (even if their first reaction was you said to them).

Your son is 2.  He's not going to automatically know to watch where he's going at all times.  And he's not going to learn unless you are allowed to let him walk and "practice" sometimes.  I personally see nothing wrong with letting him walk if it's a quick trip and the store is not overly crowded or busy. 

Sure, it would be great if your immediate reaction would be to say something like "son's name, please watch where you're going", but that is rarely the case.  If your son and the person driving the other cart don't see each other, "watch out" is the most effective way of getting everyone's attention.  It's a safety thing.  I'd yell it out if I saw two adults about to collide in the grocery store (and that has happened).
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: ktelderkin on January 31, 2013, 09:42:23 AM
My DS is 4 and he still occasionally walks into things.  It's not his vision (it's been tested multiple times) but more that he tends to be in his own world a bit.  I wish I could say he'll outgrow it really soon, but it might be a bit.   :)   My 2 year DD is much better about it, so he may grow out of it really soon. 

If he doesn't want to hold your hand (which I get, it seems like lots of little kids go through that) you might just try staying closer to him - there have been times with DS where I feel a bit like I'm herding him through the store like he's a sheep.  Other people seem more likely to notice me than him.  I apologize if he does manage to bump into someone and people have always been really nice about it. 

I do agree with other posters that the cart might be easiest.  Would something like a favorite book or toy that you could keep in a purse work?  It could be something that he only gets at the store which might make it more appealing.  Or even stickers - both my kiddos will play with a sticker for awhile. Might be long enough to get you in & out. 

Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: onyonryngs on January 31, 2013, 09:43:52 AM
Ah, 2 year olds and public.  One of my children really hates holding hands, but he's at an age where he just has to if we are in an environment like a grocery store.  I would say you should probably work on that piece.  I wouldn't be upset if you yelled "watch out" in my direction in a store, as it would probably be pretty obvious what was happening.

This.  I went through that with mine.  Kids scream to get their way, you just have to push through.  Keep training him and yourself.  Train him to hold your hand, train yourself to remember to say his name when you yell "watch out."
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: shygirl on January 31, 2013, 09:46:55 AM
Use your son's name, and apologize to other.shoppers when he inconveniences them. As a side note, have you had his vision checked? It sounds like he's running into a lot of objects.

Actually, we have had his vision checked, although it's time for a re-check.  But the reason he's running into things is because he's not looking where he is going.  Even if he does need glasses, it's not going to help if he's looking to his left while moving forward.

Practice runs are not a bad idea, but I'll save that for the weather doesn't suck so much.  (I live in northeastern MA, and honestly right now, I am only going out with him unless he's bleeding or we're out of his precious orange juice.)

Ah, 2 year olds and public.  One of my children really hates holding hands, but he's at an age where he just has to if we are in an environment like a grocery store.  I would say you should probably work on that piece.  I wouldn't be upset if you yelled "watch out" in my direction in a store, as it would probably be pretty obvious what was happening. 

Definitely working on holding hands.  In places like parking lots, I hold on to his hand even though he's screaming at the top of his lungs, and being difficult about where we have to go.  I figure, it's outside and more dangerous than being inside the actual store, so I deal with it.  Inside the store, though, it's not really so life-threatening to run into a shopping cart.  And he does behave much better if I don't insist on holding his hand.  He doesn't scream, he doesn't run away from me.  He will just walk next to me, or a little ahead of me, quietly.  And not always looking in the direction he is moving.
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: Girly on January 31, 2013, 09:50:03 AM
I have a 2 year old. Whenever we go anywhere, including stores, he is either holding my hand, or in a cart. Sometimes he cries when he is in the cart, which I ignore. He settles down after a minute or two of me ignoring him (never longer than that), and I try to go in 'off' hours.

His dad, however, bows to his screaming, and the baby knows this. Even though they are two, they are smart kids, and for sure know what they can and can't get away with.

As advise to you, yes, I think it is a bit rude to just yell 'Watch Out!' when your son is about to walk into someone else. If someone did that to me, I'd think they were talking to me. I agree with the above posters that you need to change what you are doing with him. Two year olds very rarely listen..... or maybe it's just mine :)
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: Sharnita on January 31, 2013, 09:53:12 AM
If he is being bribed the entire time, every trip, then it sounds like he is training you rather than the other way around.
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: Girly on January 31, 2013, 09:54:29 AM
If he is being bribed the entire time, every trip, then it sounds like he is training you rather than the other way around.

Yes, this too. I didn't even mention it in my previous post, but definitely this.
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: LeveeWoman on January 31, 2013, 09:56:10 AM
Use your son's name, and apologize to other.shoppers when he inconveniences them. As a side note, have you had his vision checked? It sounds like he's running into a lot of objects.

Actually, we have had his vision checked, although it's time for a re-check.  But the reason he's running into things is because he's not looking where he is going.  Even if he does need glasses, it's not going to help if he's looking to his left while moving forward.

Practice runs are not a bad idea, but I'll save that for the weather doesn't suck so much.  (I live in northeastern MA, and honestly right now, I am only going out with him unless he's bleeding or we're out of his precious orange juice.)

Ah, 2 year olds and public.  One of my children really hates holding hands, but he's at an age where he just has to if we are in an environment like a grocery store.  I would say you should probably work on that piece.  I wouldn't be upset if you yelled "watch out" in my direction in a store, as it would probably be pretty obvious what was happening. 

Definitely working on holding hands.  In places like parking lots, I hold on to his hand even though he's screaming at the top of his lungs, and being difficult about where we have to go.  I figure, it's outside and more dangerous than being inside the actual store, so I deal with it. Inside the store, though, it's not really so life-threatening to run into a shopping cart.  And he does behave much better if I don't insist on holding his hand.  He doesn't scream, he doesn't run away from me.  He will just walk next to me, or a little ahead of me, quietly.  And not always looking in the direction he is moving.

It can be just as dangerous if he falls and smacks his head on the floor.

It is extremely rude to put people in the situation where they have to watch out for a small child when they're taking care of their own grocery shopping.
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: Amava on January 31, 2013, 09:57:25 AM
My DS is 4 and he still occasionally walks into things.  It's not his vision (it's been tested multiple times) but more that he tends to be in his own world a bit.
Well... I'm 39 and I've still not outgrown that.  ;D
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: perpetua on January 31, 2013, 09:58:16 AM

It is extremely rude to put people in the situation where they have to watch out for a small child when they're taking care of their own grocery shopping.

This. You need to be controlling your child in the supermarket. If you can not, he should not be in there.
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: CluelessBride on January 31, 2013, 10:03:51 AM
Are you apologizing to the people your son is running/almost running into after you yell "Watch out!"?  If not, then I definitely think you are being rude, and I think it's far more likely that they will think you were yelling at them. I also think "Watch out, son!" in infinitely better.

I do have sympathy for parents, especially when they are in an emergency situation and have to go to the store, but I do think they need to realize that even if they can't control their child's behavior, they need to own up to it.

Since you are in the New England areas, have you looked into Peapod at Stop and Shop?  In my area, there is a fee for delivery, but in store pickup is free. Might cut down on roaming the aisles.
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: cheyne on January 31, 2013, 10:05:36 AM
I would feel terrible if a toddler ran into me or my cart and fell/hurt himself.  Even if it wasn't my fault.  I am concerned for elderly shoppers or someone with a cane being run into by a small child.  An adult that's not too steady on their feet could fall and injure themselves and the toddler.

OP, I think you need to stop bribing your son and take the attitude that "of course it's expected that you will sit in the cart" when grocery shopping.  He will scream the first time, scream less the second time, and progressively less each time as he sees that you are serious.  Don't get angry, just take the attitude that "this is the way it is" in a very matter of fact way.
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: mmswm on January 31, 2013, 10:08:14 AM
I would feel terrible if a toddler ran into me or my cart and fell/hurt himself.  Even if it wasn't my fault.  I am concerned for elderly shoppers or someone with a cane being run into by a small child.  An adult that's not too steady on their feet could fall and injure themselves and the toddler.

OP, I think you need to stop bribing your son and take the attitude that "of course it's expected that you will sit in the cart" when grocery shopping.  He will scream the first time, scream less the second time, and progressively less each time as he sees that you are serious.  Don't get angry, just take the attitude that "this is the way it is" in a very matter of fact way.

I've had a few outings where I was serenaded by a screaming toddler for exactly this reason.  I tried to avoid those by the "practice runs" I described earlier, but sometimes a cranky toddler forgets what he's practiced.
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: Roe on January 31, 2013, 10:11:29 AM
If he is being bribed the entire time, every trip, then it sounds like he is training you rather than the other way around.

I have to agree with this.  I also agree with the PP who mentioned doing a "trail run."  Go to the store and hold his hand, when he starts screaming, leave. 

My kids used to hate (hate!) hand holding too but they knew that if they wanted to be out and about, it was either that or nothing.  They accepted it (after a few "trial runs") and no more tantrums! Good luck!
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: LeveeWoman on January 31, 2013, 10:12:48 AM
I'd rather put up with a screaming toddler than one who's not under physical control.
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: RegionMom on January 31, 2013, 10:14:21 AM
My kids are 18 mos apart, so almost like twins. 

I had to train them to hold hands, no matter what, for their safety.  No matter what.

Like another poster that wrote about their dog's getting off leash and another poster responded with an article about an Emergency Come command, the one time you truly DO need to have your child right next to you may be the time they do not because they have trained you, instead of your training him.

Do not give in to their fits.  You are raising a special snowflake if you do.

How I trained my kids in grocery stores--you know how there are free cookies or baked goods, or fruit for 25 cents for children to get?  Or even a balloon giveaway from the store?  or a token for the coupon machine at the store? And many parents get those at the first of the trip to distract the child? 

Well, I held that as a reward for the end of the trip.  And a few times, one child would receive the "prize" while the other did not.  Oh, the howling in the car!  but, not in the store!

Practice runs are a great idea.  Put nothing perishable in your basket and be prepared to leave.  no cajoling.   

Engage your child to help you.  "Should we get red or green apples?"  "Which bread is it that daddy likes?"  "Do you want red or blue box of cereal?"  "How many juice boxes are in the box?"  and so on...

That way, you are engaging in pre-math and educational conversations, teaching your son life skills of grocery shopping and decision making, he is paying attention, and although it may take longer,the pay off is so worth it!

My kids are teens now and I can divvy up a shopping list and meet them up front.  We will have best price comparisons, the list followed just right, and they know how to put away the groceries at home. 

It all began when they were babies in the car seat, and then the grocery seat, hearing me talk to them and engaging them. 

It is work.

But, "this too, shall pass."

The fact that you are asking for help is a good sign--you are aware of a potential snowflake in training, and want to stop!

Bonus-
one store used to have small signs that said, "If cashier does not offer Deal of the Week to you, then you get it for free!" and once my kids could read, they learned to pay attention and more than once we received free items at the checkout counter.  And almost every time the cashier would say, "No one else ever notices!"

Teaching a child to pay attention is a wonderful gift.

Good luck!
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: MrsJWine on January 31, 2013, 10:16:41 AM
Our first daughter was severely shy. It was not one of those things we could train out of her; no amount of socializing brought her anxiety down to normal when we were in public. We went a year without ever taking her to a store or restaurant, it was that bad. So I sympathize. She suddenly snapped out of it around age two and a half, for which I'm very thankful. That's a case where you have to wait out the phase and can't really do anything about it. I'm very thankful my husband could do grocery runs on his way home from work, or that I could go at night without the kids; I know that's not always possible, but if your son just needs to outgrow this phase, I would avoid the store with him as much as possible.

On the other hand, my three year old was very willful in the store, and we had to train her out of it. For a while, I only went to the store with my husband. If the then-two year old didn't like the cart and started pitching a fit, I took her out to the car and strapped her in her seat, which she hated even more. My husband continued shopping. This took a couple of months; we did it from mid-winter through mid-spring before it started clicking. It was extremely unfun, but that's just part of being a parent sometimes.

It's really unfair to put other people in the position of almost injuring a toddler. If I ran over a little kid in the store and hurt him, I wouldn't really care if it was my fault; I would feel awful for the poor child. Not to mention the possibility of him running into an elderly person or a store display.
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: shygirl on January 31, 2013, 10:18:25 AM
there have been times with DS where I feel a bit like I'm herding him through the store like he's a sheep. 

Ha ha ha!  Yes, I often also feel like I'm herding sheep when I'm at the grocery with my son. 

If he is being bribed the entire time, every trip, then it sounds like he is training you rather than the other way around.

I'm not bribing him the every time we go to the store.  I bribe him for long trips so he will stay in the cart for the entire trip.  Otherwise, he'll sit in the cart for 2 minutes and then he wants to get out.  If I don't let him out, he starts screaming bloody murder.

Actually, recently, we did manage a medium sized grocery trip with him in the cart, and I didn't have to bribe him.  I was extremely nervous the whole time though, because, I really, really hate it when I've picked up several items, and then my son starts screaming.  This has happened several times in the past, and I can't continue shopping, so I end up having to abandon the cart with the closest grocery store employee, and run out of the store with the still screaming child, and I'm positive some of the looks I've gotten from people have been of the "control your child" variety.  I've also gotten some "been there, done that" type of look too, lol.

It can be just as dangerous if he falls and smacks his head on the floor.

It is extremely rude to put people in the situation where they have to watch out for a small child when they're taking care of their own grocery shopping.

How fast do you need to be going for that to happen?  My son isn't running, he's walking.  If the person with the cart is moving so fast that my son falls hard enough to hit his head on the floor, I'd say that person needs to slow down regardless of who is in the grocery store. 
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: EMuir on January 31, 2013, 10:21:21 AM
I agree that of the two options, having a child screaming but safe is the better option.  He may scream at first, but once he sees you aren't giving in, it should stop.  Good luck.
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: LeveeWoman on January 31, 2013, 10:22:53 AM
there have been times with DS where I feel a bit like I'm herding him through the store like he's a sheep. 

Ha ha ha!  Yes, I often also feel like I'm herding sheep when I'm at the grocery with my son. 

If he is being bribed the entire time, every trip, then it sounds like he is training you rather than the other way around.

I'm not bribing him the every time we go to the store.  I bribe him for long trips so he will stay in the cart for the entire trip.  Otherwise, he'll sit in the cart for 2 minutes and then he wants to get out.  If I don't let him out, he starts screaming bloody murder.

Actually, recently, we did manage a medium sized grocery trip with him in the cart, and I didn't have to bribe him.  I was extremely nervous the whole time though, because, I really, really hate it when I've picked up several items, and then my son starts screaming.  This has happened several times in the past, and I can't continue shopping, so I end up having to abandon the cart with the closest grocery store employee, and run out of the store with the still screaming child, and I'm positive some of the looks I've gotten from people have been of the "control your child" variety.  I've also gotten some "been there, done that" type of look too, lol.

It can be just as dangerous if he falls and smacks his head on the floor.

It is extremely rude to put people in the situation where they have to watch out for a small child when they're taking care of their own grocery shopping.

How fast do you need to be going for that to happen?  My son isn't running, he's walking.  If the person with the cart is moving so fast that my son falls hard enough to hit his head on the floor, I'd say that person needs to slow down regardless of who is in the grocery store.

I walk at a brisk pace, focused on taking care of business. I don't have tunnel vision and I am aware of what's going on, but why should it be on me to look out for a little kid who's not under the physical control of his parent?
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: Lynn2000 on January 31, 2013, 10:24:06 AM
I think it's splitting hairs to wonder who the "watch out!" is being directed towards. I mean, if you yell "watch out!" at the grocery store because your toddler and the cart someone is pushing are about to collide, it will get the attention of both the toddler and the cart-pusher. Actually, it seems more likely to me that the adult cart-pusher will pay attention to the warning, even if it's meant for the toddler. I mean, one wouldn't expect that upon yelling "watch out!" the toddler will stop in his tracks, look around, and remove himself to safety, while the adult cart-pusher blithely continues on their path without stopping, slowing, or even noticing the kid. (I'm sure it does happen, but not really what you'd expect.) Even if someone yelled "watch out, Timmy!" in my vicinity, I would be glancing around to see if Timmy and I were about to collide.

I think if you're at the point where you're yelling "watch out!" in a grocery store, it's a safety issue in that moment, and you say what you need to say to alert everyone to the fact that there's a problem. To me, it's what happens afterward that's more important in determining politeness--Timmy's mom apologizes to me and starts chiding Timmy vs. Timmy's mom chides me. And, what happens before--if Timmy can be prevented from running around the store in the first place.
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: Honeypickle on January 31, 2013, 10:29:38 AM
"I think it's splitting hairs to wonder who the "watch out!" is being directed towards. I mean, if you yell "watch out!" at the grocery store because your toddler and the cart someone is pushing are about to collide, it will get the attention of both the toddler and the cart-pusher."

As a general safety tip, obviously just shouting "Watch Out" is effective. Here, we are answering the question of whether it's rude to yell "Watch Out" at the grocery store; if "Son's Name" is inserted first, it avoids any other potential cuctomer thinking you are shouting at them and therefore you are avoiding being thought rude.

Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: mmswm on January 31, 2013, 10:29:53 AM
Shygirl, I think that we may be coming across as "dogpiling" you.  Please don't take it that way.  Parenting a toddler is hard work.  Those of us offering advise are doing so out of genuine concern and helpfulness, not trying to paint you as a bad parent.

That said, feeding a neverending supply of french fries *is* bribing.  There's a time and a place for bribery, but if you have to do it almost all the time, then it's time to do something else.  Yes, it's embarrassing to have your child screaming bloody murder in a cart.  We get that.  Anybody who's ever had a toddler, however, will look at you knowingly and remember our own experiences with a strong-willed toddler and smile, not judge you.

As to the question of how fast you need to be going to hurt a toddler?  The answer is not fast at all.  A slow moving cart making impact at just the right angle can do serious damage, including the need for stitches and, in one case that I witnessed, a broken arm.  The child was actually just standing there, not moving at all.  The person with the cart was moving at a snail's pace, but didn't see the child.  She bumped the child, the child lost his balance.  The way he hit the floor twisted his arm just so and he wound up with a clean break through his ulna.  Toddlers have soft bones.  It can happen.
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: shygirl on January 31, 2013, 10:32:09 AM
Our first daughter was severely shy. It was not one of those things we could train out of her; no amount of socializing brought her anxiety down to normal when we were in public. We went a year without ever taking her to a store or restaurant, it was that bad. So I sympathize. She suddenly snapped out of it around age two and a half, for which I'm very thankful. That's a case where you have to wait out the phase and can't really do anything about it. I'm very thankful my husband could do grocery runs on his way home from work, or that I could go at night without the kids; I know that's not always possible, but if your son just needs to outgrow this phase, I would avoid the store with him as much as possible.

On the other hand, my three year old was very willful in the store, and we had to train her out of it. For a while, I only went to the store with my husband. If the then-two year old didn't like the cart and started pitching a fit, I took her out to the car and strapped her in her seat, which she hated even more. My husband continued shopping. This took a couple of months; we did it from mid-winter through mid-spring before it started clicking. It was extremely unfun, but that's just part of being a parent sometimes.

It's really unfair to put other people in the position of almost injuring a toddler. If I ran over a little kid in the store and hurt him, I wouldn't really care if it was my fault; I would feel awful for the poor child. Not to mention the possibility of him running into an elderly person or a store display.

Oh, believe me, I avoid going shopping with him at ALL COSTS.  But, my husband and I work opposite schedules, and I don't have a lot of babysitting options right now. 

During summer last year, I did try just continue shopping with my son screaming in the cart.  He didn't calm down.  He just got louder and louder, and would violently start thrashing around in the seat.  The strap in the cart was useless, and I got worried about him not staying in the seat.  Eventually, I would have to leave with him, kicking and screaming, and strap him down in his carseat, and wait until he calmed down.  Once, this took 20 minutes!  Then go back in the store with the whimpering, but not screaming, child and pay for the items I did manage to pick out.

He is getting better, and as I mentioned in an earlier post, it looks like the bribe is not always going to be necessary.  I hope in another few months, I can train him to hold onto the cart while we're walking around the store.

 
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: Zilla on January 31, 2013, 10:32:41 AM
It can be just as dangerous if he falls and smacks his head on the floor.

It is extremely rude to put people in the situation where they have to watch out for a small child when they're taking care of their own grocery shopping.


Shygirl:
How fast do you need to be going for that to happen?  My son isn't running, he's walking.  If the person with the cart is moving so fast that my son falls hard enough to hit his head on the floor, I'd say that person needs to slow down regardless of who is in the grocery store.

Not fast at all, it's the force of two moving objects colliding.  I know this as I myself knocked down a tiny toddler with a cart once.  I was so horrified and felt so bad the entire day.  Heck I still feel bad that it happened and it was some time ago.  I can't stress enough that you really need to take consistent measures in either holding your kid's hand or putting him in a cart or taking a stroller.  Problem is once you "give" in, the kid will take a mile and cry till you give in.  If you don't give in ever, he will get used to staying in the cart/holding hand etc.  But once you compromise and let him not hold hands sometimes or let him out of the cart sometimes, it's harder to keep them in when you need to.
Instead of food, you can try books/toys that clip onto the cart etc to keep him entertained.  It's what I did.  As for your question, instead of yelling, I would quickly take the last 2 steps and grab him.  Then tell the kid, "You need to watch where you are going.  Now you are holding my hand." 
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: Sharnita on January 31, 2013, 10:33:07 AM
And letting him run loose so you don't need to give him fries or listen to him scream is still letting him dictate the terms.
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: Lynn2000 on January 31, 2013, 10:36:55 AM
"I think it's splitting hairs to wonder who the "watch out!" is being directed towards. I mean, if you yell "watch out!" at the grocery store because your toddler and the cart someone is pushing are about to collide, it will get the attention of both the toddler and the cart-pusher."

As a general safety tip, obviously just shouting "Watch Out" is effective. Here, we are answering the question of whether it's rude to yell "Watch Out" at the grocery store; if "Son's Name" is inserted first, it avoids any other potential cuctomer thinking you are shouting at them and therefore you are avoiding being thought rude.

Well, I guess just "watch out" seems neutral to me, then. "Watch out!" plus a glare at me and "Hey, you need to watch where you're going with that cart!" is rude. "Watch out!" plus "I'm so sorry he darted in front of you like that!" is not rude. Adding the child's name to either warning does not, in my opinion, change anything.
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: WillyNilly on January 31, 2013, 10:50:44 AM
For me, I wouldn't be offended by the "watch out!"

But I have to say if you are letting your kid wander around more then a foot or two away from your side, I also feel I get to speak to him, and I get to say "watch out" or "you need to look where you are going" or "no running" or "this is not an ok place to play" or "don't stand in front of my cart" or "excuse me but you need to move over" or "please don't touch/pull things down" and the like if I see the kid in a situation that warrants comment. Because once you are not actively engaged in parenting your kid, and letting him be out interacting in the world, the world gets to interact back.
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: acicularis on January 31, 2013, 10:52:10 AM
It would probably be better if you could say "Son's name, watch out!" instead of just "Watch out!" Failing that, smile and apologize to the other shopper. Heck, smile and apologize anyway, to show that you're sorry he got in their way.

Hang in there. Shopping with him will get easier. Sounds like you're working on keeping him close and teaching him how to behave.

He might not be ready for this yet, but one thing I did when my kids were toddlers was give a little "list" of their own --with drawings instead of words. Once they were starting to recognize letters, I'd write a couple simple words. No, they weren't really reading, but knew that "eggs" started with "e" and "milk" started with "m" and their job was to look for those things. It was another way to keep them occupied in addition to or instead of snacks.
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: suzieQ on January 31, 2013, 10:53:10 AM


How fast do you need to be going for that to happen?  My son isn't running, he's walking.  If the person with the cart is moving so fast that my son falls hard enough to hit his head on the floor, I'd say that person needs to slow down regardless of who is in the grocery store.

Not very fast. Grocery store floors are *hard*. I watched a two year old get bumped into by another child once. The two year old fell straight back and hit her head on the floor. Was unresponsive for several minutes. Saw her mom pick her up and the child was just *limp*. Looked like she was dead! Scared the crap out of all the adults in the area. Mom took her to the hospital and she is fine now (I know the family) but it was a VERY scary moment there!
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: shygirl on January 31, 2013, 10:55:45 AM
"I think it's splitting hairs to wonder who the "watch out!" is being directed towards. I mean, if you yell "watch out!" at the grocery store because your toddler and the cart someone is pushing are about to collide, it will get the attention of both the toddler and the cart-pusher."

As a general safety tip, obviously just shouting "Watch Out" is effective. Here, we are answering the question of whether it's rude to yell "Watch Out" at the grocery store; if "Son's Name" is inserted first, it avoids any other potential cuctomer thinking you are shouting at them and therefore you are avoiding being thought rude.

Well, I guess just "watch out" seems neutral to me, then. "Watch out!" plus a glare at me and "Hey, you need to watch where you're going with that cart!" is rude. "Watch out!" plus "I'm so sorry he darted in front of you like that!" is not rude. Adding the child's name to either warning does not, in my opinion, change anything.

I definitely do not glare at anyone.  I just try to keep an eye on my son, and if I see him wandering into someone's else path, I call out to him.  And then if I forget to use his name, and I see the person with the cart looking at us, I don't apologize, but I do say that I was talking to my kid and not her.

I feel like I'm pretty obvious that I'm telling my kid to watch out, and not that anyone else needs to watch where they are going.  Although, people should watch where they are going.

One time, we were leaving the store, and a lady came barrelling into the store at a fast pace, completely looking in a different direction than where she was going.  She would have run into both of us, if I didn't stop and yank on my son's hair to keep him moving forward anymore.  That when I said "watch out", I was talking to her, but I didn't glare at her or say it nastily.
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: Moray on January 31, 2013, 10:56:54 AM
If he is being bribed the entire time, every trip, then it sounds like he is training you rather than the other way around.

I have to agree with this.  I also agree with the PP who mentioned doing a "trail run."  Go to the store and hold his hand, when he starts screaming, leave. 

My kids used to hate (hate!) hand holding too but they knew that if they wanted to be out and about, it was either that or nothing.  They accepted it (after a few "trial runs") and no more tantrums! Good luck!

Agreed. He's got you trained to either give him fries in the cart, or let him run wild for fear he might scream. This is a 2yo. They're not always going to do what you want, or what is appropriate, or what is safe. (Like running helter skelter into other people's carts. Even if you've "got an eye on him", that's pretty unsafe for all involved) That's why you have to parent them.
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: Sophia on January 31, 2013, 10:57:30 AM
Mine likes to help me push the cart.  She started at about 1.5 years old. She walks between me and the cart and pushes on the lower shelf.  I steer, and tell her when to stop.  her other option is to ride in the cart. 
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: Moray on January 31, 2013, 10:57:53 AM
"I think it's splitting hairs to wonder who the "watch out!" is being directed towards. I mean, if you yell "watch out!" at the grocery store because your toddler and the cart someone is pushing are about to collide, it will get the attention of both the toddler and the cart-pusher."

As a general safety tip, obviously just shouting "Watch Out" is effective. Here, we are answering the question of whether it's rude to yell "Watch Out" at the grocery store; if "Son's Name" is inserted first, it avoids any other potential cuctomer thinking you are shouting at them and therefore you are avoiding being thought rude.

Well, I guess just "watch out" seems neutral to me, then. "Watch out!" plus a glare at me and "Hey, you need to watch where you're going with that cart!" is rude. "Watch out!" plus "I'm so sorry he darted in front of you like that!" is not rude. Adding the child's name to either warning does not, in my opinion, change anything.

I definitely do not glare at anyone.  I just try to keep an eye on my son, and if I see him wandering into someone's else path, I call out to him.  And then if I forget to use his name, and I see the person with the cart looking at us, I don't apologize, but I do say that I was talking to my kid and not her.

I feel like I'm pretty obvious that I'm telling my kid to watch out, and not that anyone else needs to watch where they are going.  Although, people should watch where they are going.

One time, we were leaving the store, and a lady came barrelling into the store at a fast pace, completely looking in a different direction than where she was going.  She would have run into both of us, if I didn't stop and yank on my son's hair to keep him moving forward anymore.  That when I said "watch out", I was talking to her, but I didn't glare at her or say it nastily.

The bolded is a pretty good reason to insist on hand holding.
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: shygirl on January 31, 2013, 11:00:36 AM
For me, I wouldn't be offended by the "watch out!"

But I have to say if you are letting your kid wander around more then a foot or two away from your side, I also feel I get to speak to him, and I get to say "watch out" or "you need to look where you are going" or "no running" or "this is not an ok place to play" or "don't stand in front of my cart" or "excuse me but you need to move over" or "please don't touch/pull things down" and the like if I see the kid in a situation that warrants comment. Because once you are not actively engaged in parenting your kid, and letting him be out interacting in the world, the world gets to interact back.

He's not really more than 2 feet away from me.  I would be fine if other people told him to "watch out" or "you need to watch where you are going".  I guess it would be weird if you said any of the other things you mentioned since my son isn't doing that specific stuff.  Really, all he is doing is walking.

I don't think you can say I am not actively engaged in parenting my child.
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: LeveeWoman on January 31, 2013, 11:00:48 AM
"I think it's splitting hairs to wonder who the "watch out!" is being directed towards. I mean, if you yell "watch out!" at the grocery store because your toddler and the cart someone is pushing are about to collide, it will get the attention of both the toddler and the cart-pusher."

As a general safety tip, obviously just shouting "Watch Out" is effective. Here, we are answering the question of whether it's rude to yell "Watch Out" at the grocery store; if "Son's Name" is inserted first, it avoids any other potential cuctomer thinking you are shouting at them and therefore you are avoiding being thought rude.

Well, I guess just "watch out" seems neutral to me, then. "Watch out!" plus a glare at me and "Hey, you need to watch where you're going with that cart!" is rude. "Watch out!" plus "I'm so sorry he darted in front of you like that!" is not rude. Adding the child's name to either warning does not, in my opinion, change anything.

I definitely do not glare at anyone.  I just try to keep an eye on my son, and if I see him wandering into someone's else path, I call out to him.  And then if I forget to use his name, and I see the person with the cart looking at us, I don't apologize, but I do say that I was talking to my kid and not her.

I feel like I'm pretty obvious that I'm telling my kid to watch out, and not that anyone else needs to watch where they are going.  Although, people should watch where they are going.

One time, we were leaving the store, and a lady came barrelling into the store at a fast pace, completely looking in a different direction than where she was going.  She would have run into both of us, if I didn't stop and yank on my son's hair to keep him moving forward anymore.   That when I said "watch out", I was talking to her, but I didn't glare at her or say it nastily.

Please don't equate me or others who are moving with their carts while shopping with this woman.
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: suzieQ on January 31, 2013, 11:01:14 AM
Mine likes to help me push the cart.  She started at about 1.5 years old. She walks between me and the cart and pushes on the lower shelf.  I steer, and tell her when to stop.  her other option is to ride in the cart.

Oh! This reminds me of what I let J do when he was younger, to keep him "in the cart". I let him ride underneath the cart - where you normally put cases of bottle water and stuff. Do your carts have those things? J would lie down under the cart and pretend like he was flying. I did get some nasty looks occasionally, but ignored them. Those people had no idea of what our lives are like (J is special needs and when he was young, life was HELL).
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: Elisabunny on January 31, 2013, 11:03:22 AM
Mine likes to help me push the cart.  She started at about 1.5 years old. She walks between me and the cart and pushes on the lower shelf.  I steer, and tell her when to stop.  her other option is to ride in the cart.

This is what I was going to suggest.  Tell him if he wants to get out, he has to "help" you push the cart, with at least one hand on it at all times.  If he insists on wandering off, he goes back in the cart.
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: bah12 on January 31, 2013, 11:05:32 AM
I'm curious how people expect kids to learn.  I have a 3 year old, she's actually pretty good about "walking" on her own (we ask her to put her hand on the cart, which she accepts more than holding hands...plus it allows us to use both hands to steer the cart). 

That being said, she wasn't born knowing how to behave like a perfect adult.  Heck, I'm in my mid-30's and I don't avoid collisions 100 percent of the time.  Kids need to learn and they aren't going to learn by observation and osmosis alone.  They need to practice...which means that they need to be let out of the cart and allowed to walk.

Sure, if the grocery store is crowded and busy, if the shopping trip is long, etc. those arent' the best times to let them practice.  But, I really don't see a problem with letting a child out of the cart (and away from the hand) in certain situations (much the same as letting someone just learning to drive, take the steering wheel in an empty or near empty parking lot). 

And even then, there is a chance (the same with adults) that a near collision could happen...and like I said, there is no issue with yelling "watch out"...even if one of the people is a child. 

Also, what's worse?  If my DD doesn't listen to me and her walking becomes a problem, yes, I force her to sit strapped into the cart.  This is punishment for her.  But it doesn't come without crying. We can calm her down relatively fast (she's already learned that if we leave a store, it's no fun for her even after she's calmed down), but are we rude to "make" her cry even for a minute?
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: TootsNYC on January 31, 2013, 11:06:41 AM
I taught my kids a game called "Stop Your Feet!"
And "Now you can go."

And we used it for fun, on the sidewalk & playground, in totally safe places.

And then I used it in the grocery store, the mall, etc.

The penalty for not "stopping their feet" immediately was that they had to walk WITH me, and I held onto their forearm instead of their hand (which is a negative--it's almost as if they're a package instead of a companion). Or they'd have to go in the cart, or hold onto the side bar of it, etc. Their freedom of movement would be GREATLY curtailed

It worked! I could stop them instantly, anywhere.

I also think that "watch out" doesn't mean anything, especially not to a 2yo brain. But "stop your feet" is clear, understandable, and specific. And it bought me time to explain things to them, and to think of other words, etc.

Other short phrases might work as well--if your child is simply wandering too far, maybe you teach him a game called "On Me!" and you teach him that when you say that, he has to come and slap hands with you. That'll get him over by you, and then you can quietly explain to him what you want from him. Or you can simply use it every time he gets a little bit too far.

And there is "inside feet!"

Pick some "crowd-control" phrases, and teach them when you are not at the grocery store. Make them a game.

I did this w/ my son who liked to hide inside the carels at the department store. And then i couldn't see him, so I'd call, but he'd stay hidden. So I explained that he didn't have to come out, he could still have fun, but I needed to know that he was safe. So I'd call out, "Where's my Billy!" in a sing-song way, and he'd say, "here I am!" and that was all I needed. It worked really, really well. I could allow him some freedom and yet still have "control" of him using these pre-decided, pre-practiced phrases.
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: WillyNilly on January 31, 2013, 11:07:54 AM
For me, I wouldn't be offended by the "watch out!"

But I have to say if you are letting your kid wander around more then a foot or two away from your side, I also feel I get to speak to him, and I get to say "watch out" or "you need to look where you are going" or "no running" or "this is not an ok place to play" or "don't stand in front of my cart" or "excuse me but you need to move over" or "please don't touch/pull things down" and the like if I see the kid in a situation that warrants comment. Because once you are not actively engaged in parenting your kid, and letting him be out interacting in the world, the world gets to interact back.

He's not really more than 2 feet away from me.  I would be fine if other people told him to "watch out" or "you need to watch where you are going".  I guess it would be weird if you said any of the other things you mentioned since my son isn't doing that specific stuff.  Really, all he is doing is walking.

I don't think you can say I am not actively engaged in parenting my child.

Actually that's exactly what you are saying you are doing.  You are not actively parenting, you are passively parenting.  Which is fine, and as he gets older more and more appropriate.  But if you are not actively holding his hand, or actively keeping him the cart or otherwise actively keeping him engaged, but rather passively just keeping an eye on him from a few feet away and only stepping in to stop him when needed, you are not actively parenting you are passively parenting.

I don't mind speaking to a kid directly, nor am I nasty about it - I use a friendly tone and child appropriate words and comments).  But if the kid is not under the direct control and direct vision of his parent, it is in my opinion fair game for me to direct my comments to the kid.  I don't have any interest in trying to figure out which random adult is the one connected to the kid for a 3 second interaction.
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: bah12 on January 31, 2013, 11:11:32 AM
Mine likes to help me push the cart.  She started at about 1.5 years old. She walks between me and the cart and pushes on the lower shelf.  I steer, and tell her when to stop.  her other option is to ride in the cart.

Oh! This reminds me of what I let J do when he was younger, to keep him "in the cart". I let him ride underneath the cart - where you normally put cases of bottle water and stuff. Do your carts have those things? J would lie down under the cart and pretend like he was flying. I did get some nasty looks occasionally, but ignored them. Those people had no idea of what our lives are like (J is special needs and when he was young, life was HELL).

I personally don't see too much of a problem with this, but there are those that will think that you are rude and putting your kid in danger (and the store liability up).  At the end of the day, it's impossible to make everyone satisfied with how you parent and teach your child.  I've learned that people will judge me regardless of what I do.  So, I do the best I can for my kid and teach her the lessons she needs so that she can function, effectively, morally, and  politely, without me someday. 

Also, like Toots, I also play a "stop/go" game with my DD...we started this when we're walking in our neighborhood...to help her not dart out into the street, etc.  It's a very fun game for her and makes me feel safer when she doesn't want to hold my hand.  I've applied it to other situations as well.
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: shygirl on January 31, 2013, 11:12:44 AM
He might not be ready for this yet, but one thing I did when my kids were toddlers was give a little "list" of their own --with drawings instead of words. Once they were starting to recognize letters, I'd write a couple simple words. No, they weren't really reading, but knew that "eggs" started with "e" and "milk" started with "m" and their job was to look for those things. It was another way to keep them occupied in addition to or instead of snacks.

Actually, this is a GREAT idea!  He can recognize all the letters, and he definitely loves to point them out to me.  "H" is his current favorite letter.

I definitely do not glare at anyone.  I just try to keep an eye on my son, and if I see him wandering into someone's else path, I call out to him.  And then if I forget to use his name, and I see the person with the cart looking at us, I don't apologize, but I do say that I was talking to my kid and not her.

I feel like I'm pretty obvious that I'm telling my kid to watch out, and not that anyone else needs to watch where they are going.  Although, people should watch where they are going.

One time, we were leaving the store, and a lady came barrelling into the store at a fast pace, completely looking in a different direction than where she was going.  She would have run into both of us, if I didn't stop and yank on my son's hair to keep him moving forward anymore.  That when I said "watch out", I was talking to her, but I didn't glare at her or say it nastily.

The bolded is a pretty good reason to insist on hand holding.

Even if we were holding hands, I would have yanking on his hand to keep from moving forward.  So I don't see how holding hands would have made any difference. 

Mine likes to help me push the cart.  She started at about 1.5 years old. She walks between me and the cart and pushes on the lower shelf.  I steer, and tell her when to stop.  her other option is to ride in the cart.

This is what I was going to suggest.  Tell him if he wants to get out, he has to "help" you push the cart, with at least one hand on it at all times.  If he insists on wandering off, he goes back in the cart.

Tried this too!  He does like to push the cart, but he doesn't want me to "help".  He just wants to push it.  If I kept my hands on the cart, it ended in another screaming fit. 

Also wanted to mention in response to someone who said that I'm bribing my kid so I don't have to listen to him scream:  that's not really what is happening.  I'm actually fine with him screaming, I listen to him do it ALL THE TIME.  It was the violent thrashing that I'm trying to stop, and the need to actually buy some groceries.  If he just sat there and cried, so I could at least keep pushing the cart and pay for whatever groceries I had already picked out, I would do that.  But it wasn't physically possible to keep him contained in the cart, and keep doing what I needed to do for groceries.
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: cicero on January 31, 2013, 11:16:55 AM
i think that you not doing your son any favors. believe me - i do understand how difficult it is. but there may be mroe efficient ways (for your son) and politer ways (for fellow shoppers) to go about this.

you said in one of your earlier posts - that when you *have to* (or when you feel that you have to) you *do* restrain him even if he screams and cries (e.g., in the parking lot). *that* should be your mindset when you take him shopping. that it doesn't matter if he screams, mom makes the decision. if you give in when he screams, he will be calling the shots from this point on.

two ideas that worked for DS when he was that age:
1. put him in the cart part of the cart, not the seat. this works if you don't have a lot of shopping. and my DS used to "help" by putting things in an orderly way.
2. he can walk but he has to hold your hand OR the cart. there is no *other* option. if he balks - pick him up and put him in the seat/cart.

and as others said - do a few dry runs when the store is not crowded and when you don't need to shop.
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: acicularis on January 31, 2013, 11:18:30 AM
I'm curious how people expect kids to learn.  I have a 3 year old, she's actually pretty good about "walking" on her own (we ask her to put her hand on the cart, which she accepts more than holding hands...plus it allows us to use both hands to steer the cart). 

That being said, she wasn't born knowing how to behave like a perfect adult.  Heck, I'm in my mid-30's and I don't avoid collisions 100 percent of the time.  Kids need to learn and they aren't going to learn by observation and osmosis alone.  They need to practice...which means that they need to be let out of the cart and allowed to walk.

Sure, if the grocery store is crowded and busy, if the shopping trip is long, etc. those arent' the best times to let them practice.  But, I really don't see a problem with letting a child out of the cart (and away from the hand) in certain situations (much the same as letting someone just learning to drive, take the steering wheel in an empty or near empty parking lot). 

And even then, there is a chance (the same with adults) that a near collision could happen...and like I said, there is no issue with yelling "watch out"...even if one of the people is a child. 

Also, what's worse?  If my DD doesn't listen to me and her walking becomes a problem, yes, I force her to sit strapped into the cart.  This is punishment for her.  But it doesn't come without crying. We can calm her down relatively fast (she's already learned that if we leave a store, it's no fun for her even after she's calmed down), but are we rude to "make" her cry even for a minute?

I agree. There's also a big difference between a toddler racing around unsupervised and a toddler walking a couple feet away from his mom.

When I'm shopping, I assume that I'm going to have to watch out for other people --children and adults. Today while shopping, lots of people got in my way --mostly adults. Should I have scolded the woman whose oblivious husband didn't see me and wandered into my path, blocking my cart?
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: Moray on January 31, 2013, 11:20:51 AM
He might not be ready for this yet, but one thing I did when my kids were toddlers was give a little "list" of their own --with drawings instead of words. Once they were starting to recognize letters, I'd write a couple simple words. No, they weren't really reading, but knew that "eggs" started with "e" and "milk" started with "m" and their job was to look for those things. It was another way to keep them occupied in addition to or instead of snacks.

Actually, this is a GREAT idea!  He can recognize all the letters, and he definitely loves to point them out to me.  "H" is his current favorite letter.

This works if the kid is aware enough to pay attention to their surroundings and not go barreling off towards the dairy case. Is your son up to that?

I definitely do not glare at anyone.  I just try to keep an eye on my son, and if I see him wandering into someone's else path, I call out to him.  And then if I forget to use his name, and I see the person with the cart looking at us, I don't apologize, but I do say that I was talking to my kid and not her.

I feel like I'm pretty obvious that I'm telling my kid to watch out, and not that anyone else needs to watch where they are going.  Although, people should watch where they are going.

One time, we were leaving the store, and a lady came barrelling into the store at a fast pace, completely looking in a different direction than where she was going.  She would have run into both of us, if I didn't stop and yank on my son's hair to keep him moving forward anymore.  That when I said "watch out", I was talking to her, but I didn't glare at her or say it nastily.

The bolded is a pretty good reason to insist on hand holding.

Even if we were holding hands, I would have yanking on his hand to keep from moving forward.  So I don't see how holding hands would have made any difference. 

Then you hold his hand tighter, or keep him in the cart. If you were in the parking lot, would you let him just yank away and hope you could yank his hair in time?

Mine likes to help me push the cart.  She started at about 1.5 years old. She walks between me and the cart and pushes on the lower shelf.  I steer, and tell her when to stop.  her other option is to ride in the cart.

This is what I was going to suggest.  Tell him if he wants to get out, he has to "help" you push the cart, with at least one hand on it at all times.  If he insists on wandering off, he goes back in the cart.

Tried this too!  He does like to push the cart, but he doesn't want me to "help".  He just wants to push it.  If I kept my hands on the cart, it ended in another screaming fit. 

Also wanted to mention in response to someone who said that I'm bribing my kid so I don't have to listen to him scream:  that's not really what is happening.  I'm actually fine with him screaming, I listen to him do it ALL THE TIME.  It was the violent thrashing that I'm trying to stop, and the need to actually buy some groceries.  If he just sat there and cried, so I could at least keep pushing the cart and pay for whatever groceries I had already picked out, I would do that.  But it wasn't physically possible to keep him contained in the cart, and keep doing what I needed to do for groceries.

The end result is still that you're rewarding him, either with fries or by getting down and running amok, for inappropriate behavior. He's not going to magically decide one day to stop running about or throwing tantrums. You have to actively reinforce positive behavior. Yes, it's hard, but who said parenting was easy?

Edit: Oops, those weren't meant to be bold, too!
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: CluelessBride on January 31, 2013, 11:30:27 AM
"I think it's splitting hairs to wonder who the "watch out!" is being directed towards. I mean, if you yell "watch out!" at the grocery store because your toddler and the cart someone is pushing are about to collide, it will get the attention of both the toddler and the cart-pusher."

As a general safety tip, obviously just shouting "Watch Out" is effective. Here, we are answering the question of whether it's rude to yell "Watch Out" at the grocery store; if "Son's Name" is inserted first, it avoids any other potential cuctomer thinking you are shouting at them and therefore you are avoiding being thought rude.

Well, I guess just "watch out" seems neutral to me, then. "Watch out!" plus a glare at me and "Hey, you need to watch where you're going with that cart!" is rude. "Watch out!" plus "I'm so sorry he darted in front of you like that!" is not rude. Adding the child's name to either warning does not, in my opinion, change anything.

I definitely do not glare at anyone.  I just try to keep an eye on my son, and if I see him wandering into someone's else path, I call out to him.  And then if I forget to use his name, and I see the person with the cart looking at us, I don't apologize, but I do say that I was talking to my kid and not her.

I feel like I'm pretty obvious that I'm telling my kid to watch out, and not that anyone else needs to watch where they are going.  Although, people should watch where they are going.

One time, we were leaving the store, and a lady came barrelling into the store at a fast pace, completely looking in a different direction than where she was going.  She would have run into both of us, if I didn't stop and yank on my son's hair to keep him moving forward anymore.  That when I said "watch out", I was talking to her, but I didn't glare at her or say it nastily.

To me, this makes the interaction rude. You don't need to apologize for asking your son to watch out. But you *do* need to apologize for your son getting in another shoppers way. Or make him apologize.

I'm an adult. Sometimes I accidentally get in someones way - it happens. But I apologize. Sometimes other people get in my way accidentally. And (most of the time) they apologize. It's true the apology doesn't change anything, and its likely you won't ever see/recognize these people again, but its just part of being in a polite society. You are responsible for your child's actions. So if he does something that would normally require you to apologize (wandering into someone's path aimlessly, bumping into them, obliviously obstructing them getting to a shelf, basically inconveniencing someone else by not being aware of his surroundings etc) then you should apologize for him.
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: Hmmmmm on January 31, 2013, 11:31:03 AM
Shygirl, it sounds like you are pretty committed to your course of action of letting him walk independently without holding hands. So to your question of how other react to hearing "Watch Out" yelled, I would say your best course of action is 1)use his name to assure others know to whom you are addressing 2)not yell since you say he is within 2 feet of you, yelling shouldn't be required. A normal volume "Johnny watch where you are going would suffice" or if quicker action is require just a sterner "Johnny!" should get his attention.

And if you can, a "Sorry" to the other shopper for his getting into their way would be appreciated.
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: guihong on January 31, 2013, 11:37:13 AM
I was once in the store when a toddler got away from his mother for "just a second" and destroyed a display of cracker boxes.   It made extra work for a clerk to put them back, but thankfully it wasn't a bunch of cans.  There are also sharp corners, freezer doors, and sometimes hot things (like rotisserie chicken).  All the more reason to either leave him at home or keep him in the cart.
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: CakeBeret on January 31, 2013, 11:41:00 AM
IMO it's a parenting issue. You're not in control of your child and he could get hurt. I know it stinks when your kid doesn't want to hold your hand/walk/sit/be quiet, but letting him run in the path of carts is not the answer. I think it is rude to let him roam freely enough that he's creating an unsafe situation and then shout vaguely.

I also think this is excellent advice:

OP, I think you need to stop bribing your son and take the attitude that "of course it's expected that you will sit in the cart" when grocery shopping.  He will scream the first time, scream less the second time, and progressively less each time as he sees that you are serious.  Don't get angry, just take the attitude that "this is the way it is" in a very matter of fact way.

My 3yo son and I usually go on 3 shopping excursions each Saturday. In one store, he's expected to sit and behave. In the second store, I'll let him have either a toy or some cheerios for distraction. At the last store, he gets applesauce at the end of the trip if he behaves. I have grocery shopped with him screaming before. I curtail my trip and check out asap, and he learns that screaming gets him absolutely no results.
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: snowdragon on January 31, 2013, 11:41:50 AM
Use your son's name, and apologize to other.shoppers when he inconveniences them. As a side note, have you had his vision checked? It sounds like he's running into a lot of objects.

Actually, we have had his vision checked, although it's time for a re-check.  But the reason he's running into things is because he's not looking where he is going.  Even if he does need glasses, it's not going to help if he's looking to his left while moving forward.

Practice runs are not a bad idea, but I'll save that for the weather doesn't suck so much.  (I live in northeastern MA, and honestly right now, I am only going out with him unless he's bleeding or we're out of his precious orange juice.)

Ah, 2 year olds and public.  One of my children really hates holding hands, but he's at an age where he just has to if we are in an environment like a grocery store.  I would say you should probably work on that piece.  I wouldn't be upset if you yelled "watch out" in my direction in a store, as it would probably be pretty obvious what was happening. 

Definitely working on holding hands.  In places like parking lots, I hold on to his hand even though he's screaming at the top of his lungs, and being difficult about where we have to go.  I figure, it's outside and more dangerous than being inside the actual store, so I deal with it.  Inside the store, though, it's not really so life-threatening to run into a shopping cart. And he does behave much better if I don't insist on holding his hand.  He doesn't scream, he doesn't run away from me.  He will just walk next to me, or a little ahead of me, quietly.  And not always looking in the direction he is moving.

You also said he runs into people.  A running two year old would put me on the floor.  I could get severely hurt falling on my already bad knees and the impact of his body into mine would be excruciating and leave me in pain for days.  I'd be livid if a kid did that to me..  and yelling "watch out" would not mitigate any of that.  No would a "sorry" - you seem to feel that allowing a child who you admit  does not even watch where he is going to run into people or things is perfectly acceptable, I am here to tell you that while HE may not get hurt buy it you could be costing someone else a A LOT of pain. And that's if the unfortunate victim is not using a walker or elderly - he could legitimately cause them a lot more than pain.  But that's ok as long as your kid gets to run ahead of you and not watch for other people.  I try to watch but I  can't see behind me, I can't see around displays and the corners of aisles or even other shoppers. Your kid is creating a hazard for other people - one that they may have to deal with the consequences of long after you are gone. 
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: TootsNYC on January 31, 2013, 11:46:07 AM
I love the idea of making your kid your partner in shopping. If he has to fetch the eggs, or the bread, etc., he'll feel SO important, and he'll be focused.

And don't underestimate him intellectually! I knows the bread packaging you use; he can be taught to open the top of the egg carton and check to see that none are broken, and probably even to carry it. If that worried you, then he can be the one to pick the carton and point it out to you.

You may have to spend a lot of time on teaching him, but BOY does he want to learn, and BOY does he want to be a grownup. Even if he's just *finding* the eggs, and looking for the one w/ the word "large" (he can recognize it if he can't read it).

Kids have AMAZING memories; grownups underestimate them all the time. Their brains are far more developed than their bodies.

I absolutely don't think you need to leave your kid at home or keep him in the cart. But you *do* have to invest your time and energy in involving him in the process of life. You need to plan on spending more time at the store--you can't zip in and out as if he's a package. He's a companion, and you'll have a better time (and a smarter and more compliant kid) if you treat him like one, and give him a chance to fully participate in your joint shopping trip, instead of just "coming along for the ride."

It would be a lot of fun, actually. The "Stop Your Feet" game was a TON of fun, and my kids really never did get that I invented it solely so I didn't have to worry about them running into traffic or getting too far away from me.


And I agree w/Hmmmm--yelling shouldn't be required (I'm not sure what you mean by "yelling"--you could simply mean "speaking a little bit more sharply and a tiny bit louder in a manner that is designed to catch attention"--it's a very flexible word).
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: shygirl on January 31, 2013, 11:47:01 AM
Umm, I never said he ran into people.  I said he would start heading towards other people, or might be in their path.

Also, people keep on saying "he's running".  He's not running.  He is walking. 
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: Moray on January 31, 2013, 11:49:36 AM
Shygirl, it really seems like you're just looking for validation at this point, and I don't know that you're going to find it. Many posters, including quite a few that either have toddlers currently, or who have already raised their children, are telling you that you and your son's shopping behavior is both counterproductive and impolite.
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: perpetua on January 31, 2013, 11:51:14 AM
Umm, I never said he ran into people.  I said he would start heading towards other people, or might be in their path.

Also, people keep on saying "he's running".  He's not running.  He is walking.

You said in your original post "(WHEN is this lesson going to sink in?  You'd think after running into walls, doors and people for the past few months, he would have learned by now.),"

That's 'running into people'.

If the lesson isn't sinking in, then you need to remove him from the situations in which he does this so that he does not hurt people. I'm sorry, but there is no excuse for allowing your child to run into people in a public place.
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: DottyG on January 31, 2013, 11:54:02 AM
I agree with a lot of people here.  I can't quote all of them lest the post be huge.

This is an excellent example of one I agree with

Quote
OP, I think you need to stop bribing your son and take the attitude that "of course it's expected that you will sit in the cart"* when grocery shopping.  He will scream the first time, scream less the second time, and progressively less each time as he sees that you are serious.  Don't get angry, just take the attitude that "this is the way it is" in a very matter of fact way.

* Since you do want him to be able to walk as well, I'd even modify that to say "will sit in the cart or walk beside you holding onto the side of the cart"
 
Yes, he'll balk at it the first few times.  And you soldier through those tantrums until he learns that YOU are the authority here and not him.  Because, right now, he's got you wrappped around his little finger.  And, while he's not one yet by any means, you don't want this to be the learning stages of a SS in the future.
 
 
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: shygirl on January 31, 2013, 11:55:28 AM
Umm, I never said he ran into people.  I said he would start heading towards other people, or might be in their path.

Also, people keep on saying "he's running".  He's not running.  He is walking.

You said in your original post "(WHEN is this lesson going to sink in?  You'd think after running into walls, doors and people for the past few months, he would have learned by now.),"

That's 'running into people'.

If the lesson isn't sinking in, then you need to remove him from the situations in which he does this so that he does not hurt people. I'm sorry, but there is no excuse for allowing your child to run into people in a public place.

You're right, I did say that.  He does run into people, me and my husband.  At the grocery store, he is not moving fast enough to do that. 
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: DottyG on January 31, 2013, 11:55:49 AM
Moray's right.

Quote
Shygirl, it really seems like you're just looking for validation at this point, and I don't know that you're going to find it. Many posters, including quite a few that either have toddlers currently, or who have already raised their children, are telling you that you and your son's shopping behavior is both counterproductive and impolite.

(You posted at the same time I was.  This wasn't a direct response to your last post - just a comment in general.)
 
 
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: BeagleMommy on January 31, 2013, 11:56:47 AM
Oh, the joys of two-year-old boys.  Iron wills, attention spans shorter than a gnat and no fear!  I remember it all to well.

Shygirl, I don't think you are rude for calling out "Watch out" if your DS gets too far ahead and isn't paying attention.

I can only suggest what worked for me with my DS.  DH and I (if we were alone with DS) would tell him, before we got to the store, that he had to walk and hold onto the cart.  If he did not he would be put in the cart.  When we arrived at the entrance to the store we would say "Okay, what did we talk about?" and make him repeat what was expected of him.  If he didn't do as was expected, into the cart he went and no amount of screaming or thrashing would change our minds.  If anything we would say to him "I told you what would happen if you didn't hold onto the cart.".
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: Sharnita on January 31, 2013, 11:58:09 AM
Another option is that if he doesn't stsy in or by the cart, he get's a time out in the car or maybe doesn't get the orange juice he expects, etc.
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: Tabby Uprising on January 31, 2013, 12:00:45 PM
Shygirl, I think you're fine.  My only recommendation would be to say "Watch out, DS" and then apologize to the person he got in the way of.  You describe him as walking, not running and state he's about 1-2 feet away from you.  He's not running amok.  He doesn't have a vision problem.  He's two and isn't vigilant about watching where he's going.

You're getting criticized for sometimes giving him fries when he's in the shopping cart so he doesn't cry.  But I've seen threads get really heated here when parents are in public with fussing/crying children and many posters feel that's rude.  Some people think you're wrong to have him quiet with fries in a cart, some people will think you're rude to let him fuss it out minus the fries in the cart, and others may think you should stay home and order groceries online.

You can't please everyone and it sounds like you are making the best of a tricky situation.  No actual individuals have been harmed.  All you've had to do is remind your son to watch where he's going when he's walking.  Continue to keep an eye on him and try other methods to keep him engaged in your errands.

Good luck!
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: shygirl on January 31, 2013, 12:04:23 PM
Shygirl, it really seems like you're just looking for validation at this point, and I don't know that you're going to find it. Many posters, including quite a few that either have toddlers currently, or who have already raised their children, are telling you that you and your son's shopping behavior is both counterproductive and impolite.

Actually, I asked if I was rude to yell "watch out".  (And I wouldn't really say I'm yelling, but it is with a raised voice.)

I think most people have said it might be rude, or it might not be rude, depending on how I do it.  My original question wasn't about whether it was counterproductive or impolite to let him walk in the grocery store next to me or ahead of me.  Definitely wasn't asking about whether it's counterproductive to let him eat french fries while shopping.
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: Moray on January 31, 2013, 12:06:51 PM
Shygirl, it really seems like you're just looking for validation at this point, and I don't know that you're going to find it. Many posters, including quite a few that either have toddlers currently, or who have already raised their children, are telling you that you and your son's shopping behavior is both counterproductive and impolite.

Actually, I asked if I was rude to yell "watch out".  (And I wouldn't really say I'm yelling, but it is with a raised voice.)

I think most people have said it might be rude, or it might not be rude, depending on how I do it.  My original question wasn't about whether it was counterproductive or impolite to let him walk in the grocery store next to me or ahead of me.  Definitely wasn't asking about whether it's counterproductive to let him eat french fries while shopping.

No, I know what you asked. Sometimes a thread drifts. You can't control it.
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: DottyG on January 31, 2013, 12:08:14 PM
But, Shygirl, the two go hand in hand.  You don't need ot yell "watch out" if you've got him either in the cart or holding onto the side of the cart until he's at an age/stage where he's not getting in people's way such that a "watch out!" is needed.  He's not ready to be off on his own right now.  That doesn't mean you have to strap him down, but it does mean, right now, that he cannot be allowed to just roam free without holding onto you or the cart if he's walking.

And, yes, in answer to your direct question, I think it's rude to just yell "watch out!" without your son's name or even apologizing to the person for his getting in their way.  If you got in their way as an adult, you'd apologize.  Why would it not be the same for him?
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: WillyNilly on January 31, 2013, 12:10:03 PM
Shygirl, it really seems like you're just looking for validation at this point, and I don't know that you're going to find it. Many posters, including quite a few that either have toddlers currently, or who have already raised their children, are telling you that you and your son's shopping behavior is both counterproductive and impolite.

Actually, I asked if I was rude to yell "watch out".  (And I wouldn't really say I'm yelling, but it is with a raised voice.)

I think most people have said it might be rude, or it might not be rude, depending on how I do it.  My original question wasn't about whether it was counterproductive or impolite to let him walk in the grocery store next to me or ahead of me.  Definitely wasn't asking about whether it's counterproductive to let him eat french fries while shopping.

I think people's point is though, the "watch out" is not rude if its part of a bigger plan to teach your son to be more mindful and behave appropriately, etc.

If its the only thing you are doing, only saying "watch out" occasionally while otherwise letting him wander/not learn, then it can be  problem.  Because ultimately the goal should be for him to always be watching, not only watching when alerted to a potentially harming situation (harmful to either him or the other person).

So people are commenting on the big picture, not the one detail.
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: DottyG on January 31, 2013, 12:13:13 PM
Quote
Everyone should be watching out for other people in the grocery store.

Yes, they should.  I don't think anyone's saying they shouldn't be watching where they're going.  However, a little child is not as easy to see when you have a full cart.  They just aren't.  Even if you're being very careful as to where you're going.  And a parent needs to be aware of that for the child.

This reminds me of something my Mom drilled into me when I started driving.  It doesn't matter who's at fault if you hit someone and kill them*.  The person's still dead.

* Obviously, this directly applies to driving and not to a cart in the store - however, it is possible for the child to get hurt.  And whether it's my fault or the child's fault or the fault of a alien that landed in the store at that moment, a child is hurt.  And that's not good. :(
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: Emmy on January 31, 2013, 12:13:37 PM
I don't have a 2 year old yet, but that can be a tough age.  Kids that age have a lot of determination, but it can be very difficult to reason with them.  Would he understand a delayed reward (such as a cookie after the trip) to train him to behave? 

That being said, I think it is important to make sure he is right by your side or in the cart.  Those carts are big, it is hard to see in front of them, and there are several blind spots at the end of aisle which is a dangerous mix.  DD is 18 months and hates riding in the cart.  I have to admit I feel a little jealous when I see other babies and toddlers riding so nicely in the cart.  DD likes to be carried or wants to walk, but carrying her is hard on my back and she is too small and young to watch out for others.  I've found either getting a racecar cart or putting her in the big section with a few things to play with (even mommy's keys and cell phone) works for us.  I have to put my groceries on the bottom or in the small section on the top, but it is still better than hearing her fuss and say 'up up up' if I strap her in the top facing me.

I like the Stop and Go game.  You could practice it at a less crowded place and when you feel he is ready, go to the store.  Let him know there is a punishment for not listening, either being leached, or going in the cart. 

If he does escape, I don't think a 2 year old understands "watch out" and he may not make the connection.  You should call his name and apologize to the person whose path he blocked.  It seems like an accident waiting to happen if he gets in the way of others several times.  Even kids a lot older tend to not watch where they are going.  I've gotten into several near misses with children much older because it is hard to see somebody who is way below eye level and doesn't follow the flow of traffic.
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: FOSTER on January 31, 2013, 12:16:54 PM


What would you think if you heard someone yell "Watch out!", kind of in your direction?  Am I rude?

I don't assume people yelling at the store are yelling at me. If they are, I pay no attention to them regardless. I wouldn't overthink this issue, pay attention to your kid, not to the tender feelings of people who are probably not even noticing you're there.
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: shygirl on January 31, 2013, 12:17:44 PM
Shygirl, it really seems like you're just looking for validation at this point, and I don't know that you're going to find it. Many posters, including quite a few that either have toddlers currently, or who have already raised their children, are telling you that you and your son's shopping behavior is both counterproductive and impolite.

Actually, I asked if I was rude to yell "watch out".  (And I wouldn't really say I'm yelling, but it is with a raised voice.)

I think most people have said it might be rude, or it might not be rude, depending on how I do it.  My original question wasn't about whether it was counterproductive or impolite to let him walk in the grocery store next to me or ahead of me.  Definitely wasn't asking about whether it's counterproductive to let him eat french fries while shopping.

I think people's point is though, the "watch out" is not rude if its part of a bigger plan to teach your son to be more mindful and behave appropriately, etc.

If its the only thing you are doing, only saying "watch out" occasionally while otherwise letting him wander/not learn, then it can be  problem.  Because ultimately the goal should be for him to always be watching, not only watching when alerted to a potentially harming situation (harmful to either him or the other person).

So people are commenting on the big picture, not the one detail.

If he's watching where he is going, he's not getting into other people's paths, so there's no need to tell him to watch out then!  It's only when he sees something interesting, and he stops looking forward, that he needs to be told to watch where he's going.

If I notice that he has stopped looking where he is going, but there's no one in that aisle for him to get in the way of, I do still tell him to watch where he is going.  But there's no one else around to overhead/misunderstand my intention, so I wasn't asking about that.
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: Emmy on January 31, 2013, 12:18:04 PM
I think the rude part is letting the kid get in the way of people with carts. What if he doesn't stop and the other person doesn't see him? I know I'd be devestated if I hit a little kid, and I'd be quite angry at the parent who put him in harm's way.

Why is the OP's son more obligated to watch where he is going than other shoppers are? Everyone should be watching out for other people in the grocery store. The OP is doing so on behalf of her son. No one is being rude.

True.  However, a two year old doesn't look both ways when they dart across aisles, is way below eye level for most people, and doesn't walk in a straight line making them difficult for most people to see.  Add to that carts full of groceries which may totally obstruct the view of a small child.
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: CluelessBride on January 31, 2013, 12:20:13 PM
I think the rude part is letting the kid get in the way of people with carts. What if he doesn't stop and the other person doesn't see him? I know I'd be devestated if I hit a little kid, and I'd be quite angry at the parent who put him in harm's way.

Why is the OP's son more obligated to watch where he is going than other shoppers are? Everyone should be watching out for other people in the grocery store. The OP is doing so on behalf of her son. No one is being rude.

Other people should be watching out. But there is a de facto since of order to shopping. Where I am its hang to the right, but I imagine that's regional, probably varying with driving customs. But I used to live in the same region the OP has identified living in - and there was definitely a traffic flow of stay to the right, unless passing there.

Someone wandering across aisles aimlessly is getting in the way, regardless of if they are an adult or a child. Someone headed into the path of a moving cart that is progressing in a straight line is getting in the way, regardless of if they are an adult or a child. In this case, the OP doesn't indicate that the other shoppers are meandering around with their carts. So my assumption is they are following the norm. Plus toddlers are short which means they can easily end up hidden by blind spots created by carts. Which means parents should be extra careful to keep them out of harms way.

The more I think about it, the fact that the OP doesn't apologize speaks volumes to me.
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: DottyG on January 31, 2013, 12:21:24 PM
Quote
If he's watching where he is going, he's not getting into other people's paths, so there's no need to tell him to watch out then!

I think you're beginning to get our point. ;)

Right now, he's not at an age or a stage where he's watching where he's going enough to not get into other people's paths.  Therefore, you need to take the lead and make sure he's holding onto the basket.  He may not like that, but he's the child and you're the adult.  You decide how it's going to be - not him.
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: LeveeWoman on January 31, 2013, 12:25:01 PM
I think the rude part is letting the kid get in the way of people with carts. What if he doesn't stop and the other person doesn't see him? I know I'd be devestated if I hit a little kid, and I'd be quite angry at the parent who put him in harm's way.

Why is the OP's son more obligated to watch where he is going than other shoppers are? Everyone should be watching out for other people in the grocery store. The OP is doing so on behalf of her son. No one is being rude.

It's not the son who is obligated to watch out where he's going. Nor is it my job to watch out where he's going. It's his parent's job.

I'm not looking at the floor when I'm shopping. While I'm aware of my surroundings, I generally keep my eyes at my level. And, even if I were to want to keep my eyes on the floor, I'd be prevented from doing that because I keep my purse in the front of the cart where I prop my notebook with my list, and my cart usually is full of things that block the view of the floor in front of me. Should I be required to keep everything out of the line of sight with the floor just in case some little kid comes into my path?
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: Sheila Take a Bow on January 31, 2013, 12:28:04 PM
Your son is almost three, right?  (Or am I confusing you with another poster who's planning a birthday party for their kid?)

When my daughter was about that age, as we walked into the store I'd remind her of the rules (stay in the cart or stay next to Mommy, use indoor voice, no begging, that sort of thing).  We stopped offering so many bribes, but instead when I was in line on the way out, or getting back into the car, I'd praise my daughter for everything she did well in the store that day.

We also started to let her be a helper, which kept her engaged and entertained.  We'd let her count eggs in the egg carton, or hold onto something while she rode in the cart.  (She loved to hold onto bagged salads because she could hug them and they were so puffy and pillow-like.)

Also, I don't think "watch out" is that helpful, especially at that age when a lot of kids can be really literal.  I think it's better to say, "Son, stop!" It's a clearer and more direct message for your son.  Also, you won't run the risk of other people thinking that you're talking to them.
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: MrsJWine on January 31, 2013, 12:28:20 PM
If I plowed over a two year old who had the right of way according to the conventions of public space (people coming out of smaller aisles yield to people coming down main aisles, etc; it's just like driving, almost), I would totally be in the wrong.

But in my experience, that's not how it happens. When I waited tables, I was carrying a tray full of hot coffee down an aisle, and a tiny little girl darted out from behind a blind corner and almost got herself scalded. The lady behind her yelled, "Watch out! I have a little girl here who doesn't like to look where she's going!" She was not joking; she was actually angry at me.

I'm not suggesting that shygirl has this kind of entitlement mindset at all; I don't see any evidence of that in the thread. It's just that people who are used to shopping as adults are much more likely to be the ones who are watching where they are going--moreso than a two year old, at least. It's not that adults aren't expected to watch where they're going; it's that kids will dart out from places whether they have the right of way or not, just because they don't know the rules of traffic. If shygirl's toddler is heeding standard conventions, and people are still running into him, then he's not at fault at all, of course; but I find that unlikely, knowing my own children's ability to maintain awareness.
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: Perfect Circle on January 31, 2013, 12:30:36 PM
Small children absolutely are difficult to see and move unpredictably. I do not want to spend my shopping trip watching out for them. I want to do my shopping. I expect parents to keep their children safe.
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: Moray on January 31, 2013, 12:32:11 PM
Other people should be watching out. But there is a de facto since of order to shopping. Where I am its hang to the right, but I imagine that's regional, probably varying with driving customs. But I used to live in the same region the OP has identified living in - and there was definitely a traffic flow of stay to the right, unless passing there.

I've never experienced this. If that is the case I will concede that what the OP's son is doing could be irritating. I still am not convinced that a person being short makes them more responsible to watch where they are going than other people. There are always children in the grocery store. It makes no sense to not be just as aware of them as the adults.

The more I think about it, the fact that the OP doesn't apologize speaks volumes to me.

To me, it says that she doesn't think letting her son walk in the grocery store is wrong. I happen to agree with her.

No one is saying that shygirl's toddler should be expected to maintain an adult level of awareness. We're saying that, as a toddler, he can't. Therefore, his parent needs to watch where he's going.
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: WillyNilly on January 31, 2013, 12:35:03 PM
True.  However, a two year old doesn't look both ways when they dart across aisles, is way below eye level for most people, and doesn't walk in a straight line making them difficult for most people to see.  Add to that carts full of groceries which may totally obstruct the view of a small child.

I don't think that's true at all. I have a 21 month old, so I'm quite familiar with how big a two year old is. They are not difficult to see. The OP's son is not running, moving quickly, or darting across isles. He is moving at a normal pace and if other shoppers fail to see him it is because they are not paying attention.

I pay attention, but mostly to eye level.  A child that is shorter then the cart, which is about 3 feet high, is not easy to see.  They just aren't.  If my cart is full I can't see through it and therefore anything - person or object - that is shorter then the cart and in front of the cart is totally out of my sight line.  Yes I need to pay attention but its absolutely absurd to think I should stand on tip toes to get a better angle at looking over the front of my cart to the floor directly in front of it.
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: wolfie on January 31, 2013, 12:37:30 PM
There are always children in the grocery store. It makes no sense to not be just as aware of them as the adults.

Not really - I don't remember the last time I saw a child in the grocery store.
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: Perfect Circle on January 31, 2013, 12:37:59 PM
Small children absolutely are difficult to see and move unpredictably. I do not want to spend my shopping trip watching out for them. I want to do my shopping. I expect parents to keep their children safe.

Whether or not you want to do it is irrelevent. As per etiquette, you are obligated to do it. There are a great many people in this world. A lot of them are short. You don't get to not watch out for them just because they are slightly harder to see. That's part of being a polite member of society.

Actually I think it's far more polite to make sure children aren't at danger in the shop. I am tall. I cannot watch the floor when shopping. I may not see a small child. It is the responsibility of the parent to make sure their child is not in danger.

I would never intentionally run into a child or a short person, of course not, but I make sure my child is always in my control when in a supermarket for her and everyone else's safety. It's my job as her parent.
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: LeveeWoman on January 31, 2013, 12:38:19 PM
Small children absolutely are difficult to see and move unpredictably. I do not want to spend my shopping trip watching out for them. I want to do my shopping. I expect parents to keep their children safe.

Whether or not you want to do it is irrelevent. As per etiquette, you are obligated to do it. There are a great many people in this world. A lot of them are short. You don't get to not watch out for them just because they are slightly harder to see. That's part of being a polite member of society.

Obligated? Obligated to do a parent's job in keeping her child safe? To keep people with mobility problems safe from her toddler?
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: Moray on January 31, 2013, 12:39:38 PM
Small children absolutely are difficult to see and move unpredictably. I do not want to spend my shopping trip watching out for them. I want to do my shopping. I expect parents to keep their children safe.

Whether or not you want to do it is irrelevent. As per etiquette, you are obligated to do it. There are a great many people in this world. A lot of them are short. You don't get to not watch out for them just because they are slightly harder to see. That's part of being a polite member of society.

As per etiquette, you should not let your child wander into the paths of others. Will it happen occasionally? Absolutely, but per etiquette you need to take steps to prevent your child, who you are solely responsible for, from bumping into others. I pay a great deal of attention to where I'm going in the store, but by virtue of actually, you know, shopping, my eyes are frequently going between my list and the shelves.
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: QueenfaninCA on January 31, 2013, 12:39:50 PM
I think you need to present your son with exactly two options: Sit in the shopping cart or walk but always hold on to the shopping cart. And yes, we will not leave the store until we have bought everything we need. He can switch from one to the other, but leaving early is absolutely not an option. Talk to him about this before heading to the store. Agree on a reward if the shopping trip goes well (a special snack, going to the park,...).

I work full time so I always had to take my son shopping. We only went once a week which meant spending 30 to 45 minutes gathering everything. We would go to the coffee place next door afterwards and if he behaved himself he would get a hot chocolate. Worked like a charm. When he would try to climb out of the shopping cart: Me:"You want your hot chocolate?" Son:"Yes" Me:"Then you better stay seated". Only once did he not get his hot chocolate.
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: bah12 on January 31, 2013, 12:40:21 PM
Shygirl, it really seems like you're just looking for validation at this point, and I don't know that you're going to find it. Many posters, including quite a few that either have toddlers currently, or who have already raised their children, are telling you that you and your son's shopping behavior is both counterproductive and impolite.

Actually, I asked if I was rude to yell "watch out".  (And I wouldn't really say I'm yelling, but it is with a raised voice.)

I think most people have said it might be rude, or it might not be rude, depending on how I do it.  My original question wasn't about whether it was counterproductive or impolite to let him walk in the grocery store next to me or ahead of me.  Definitely wasn't asking about whether it's counterproductive to let him eat french fries while shopping.

I think people's point is though, the "watch out" is not rude if its part of a bigger plan to teach your son to be more mindful and behave appropriately, etc.

If its the only thing you are doing, only saying "watch out" occasionally while otherwise letting him wander/not learn, then it can be  problem.  Because ultimately the goal should be for him to always be watching, not only watching when alerted to a potentially harming situation (harmful to either him or the other person).

So people are commenting on the big picture, not the one detail.

I think it's unfair to suggest that the OP is not teaching her son to behave appropriately.  I'm sure it could be argued that if she forced him to sit in the cart with a book every time they are out in public, she wouldn't be teaching him how to behave appropriately, because he'd never get the chance to try.

Yes, kids in public can be a hassle and an inconvenience.  It totally sucks when someone else's kid gets in my way.  I don't like it.  But, it's not just kids who don't always pay attention.  And paying attention to kids doesn't guarantee that an accident won't occur.  I was in a grocery store once, turned a corner and ran into another cart coming my way.  It was neither of our faults.  The aisles were small, we couldn't see around the corner, and even trying to be careful, we still had an accident.

Having to watch out for others (of any age/size) is just something that we have to do because we share the world with other people.  The inconvenience of it doesn't make it rude.  Whether or not a parent chooses to let their kid walk and in what circumstances, is a parenting issue, not an etiquette one.

To me, the basic question in this post is "Is it rude to yell 'watch out' when I see a collision about to occur" or more so "Will the person who is not at fault for potential collision be offended because someone yells 'watch out'."  And my thought is...that's a pretty benign thing to get all up in arms about. 
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: DottyG on January 31, 2013, 12:41:25 PM
Quote
Will it happen occasionally? Absolutely, but per etiquette you need to take steps to prevent your child, who you are solely responsible for, from bumping into others.

Moray, I agree with you completely.  But, may I add another sentence to your post?

"And, if they do bump into others, you are responsible for apologizing for them."
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: Moray on January 31, 2013, 12:42:36 PM
Quote
Will it happen occasionally? Absolutely, but per etiquette you need to take steps to prevent your child, who you are solely responsible for, from bumping into others.

Moray, I agree with you completely.  But, may I add another sentence to your post?

"And, if they do bump into others, you are responsible for apologizing for them."

Absolutely! I'd like to think it goes without saying, but I've been wrong before :)
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: DottyG on January 31, 2013, 12:43:36 PM
Quote
I'd like to think it goes without saying

I would, too!  But, unfortunately, it doesn't always!

Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: DottyG on January 31, 2013, 12:46:16 PM
Dandy Andy's Daddy's Love, I do understand what you're getting at.  I do.

But can we at least agree that the child's holding onto the cart is a good idea?  That that might remedy a lot of the problems right now and keep both the child and the other shoppers safe?
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: snowdragon on January 31, 2013, 12:47:58 PM
True.  However, a two year old doesn't look both ways when they dart across aisles, is way below eye level for most people, and doesn't walk in a straight line making them difficult for most people to see.  Add to that carts full of groceries which may totally obstruct the view of a small child.

I don't think that's true at all. I have a 21 month old, so I'm quite familiar with how big a two year old is. They are not difficult to see. The OP's son is not running, moving quickly, or darting across isles. He is moving at a normal pace and if other shoppers fail to see him it is because they are not paying attention.


  I am an adult - I have just graduated to being able to walk a store after months of therapy.  As an adult in a motorized cart, I was often difficult to see in a grocery store.  My head came to the top of the handle bar on the cart - and there were still times that I almost got hit because People , were not able to see me because the display was too big or at the intersection of two aisles and so forth.  Yes, it was absolutely my responsibility to make sure I was being uberwatchful for everyone and everything around me and I don't move unpredictably, change direction on a dime or suddenly stop - those things are notoriously hard to stop.- if the kid is not capable of watching for themselves - then they need to be under the parent's control. 
  Everyone needs to watch out while shopping - that includes adults with or with out kids present and it includes the kids themselves. But if  the kid is too young to watch out for himself it falls to the parent to be that much more vigilant because of it.  Keeping him beside you is the safe and polite thing to do.  I am honestly surprised that the adults in this situation are not glaring at the pair or saying some to the OP along the lines of "you watch out yourselves!" or some such...she must shop with a very tolerant bunch of people
 
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: Emmy on January 31, 2013, 12:49:57 PM
True.  However, a two year old doesn't look both ways when they dart across aisles, is way below eye level for most people, and doesn't walk in a straight line making them difficult for most people to see.  Add to that carts full of groceries which may totally obstruct the view of a small child.

I don't think that's true at all. I have a 21 month old, so I'm quite familiar with how big a two year old is. They are not difficult to see. The OP's son is not running, moving quickly, or darting across isles. He is moving at a normal pace and if other shoppers fail to see him it is because they are not paying attention.

Well when somebody comes up to below your waist, you literally have to look down to see them when they are a few feet in front of you.  Several times, a young child (bigger than a toddler) strayed in my path and I had a near collision because I couldn't see them.  If they happen to be in front of your cart that is full, it would be nearly impossible to see them.  Are you saying you walk around looking at the ground or you look in front of your cart when stopped before moving it each and every time in case a toddler is in your way?
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: WillyNilly on January 31, 2013, 12:53:53 PM
There are always children in the grocery store. It makes no sense to not be just as aware of them as the adults.

Not really - I don't remember the last time I saw a child in the grocery store.

Me either... well no I do see them, just not very small children who are walking.  I see 10+ year olds often and I see small kids in carts often. A wandering toddler is not the norm by any means though in my grocery shopping experiences.

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I just don't understand this. Of course it's absurd to think that. But that's not what is happening. The only blind spot on a shopping cart is directly in front of it, so the only way to miss something going into your blind spot is if you are not looking forward. That's not a problem if your cart isn't moving, but in that case, you wouldn't hit the child anyway. If your cart is moving forward, and you aren't watching the front of it, then you are not watching where you are going.

And let's not lose sight of what is actually happening here. There is no toddler running around the store, darting out from the isles, and toppling displays. This is a small child, walking at a normal pace, beside his mother, and occasionally veering off by a few feet.

I don't know how you shop, but I stop my cart several times as I'm walking down the aisles, to you know, shop - take things off the shelves, compare prices, read ingredients & nutrition facts, etc.  So if a small child is wandering - even at a slow pace - and steps in front of my cart, they are directly in my blind spot and likely to get hit by my cart as I move forward because I'm not looking down directly in front of my cart, towards the floor, before I start moving again, only straight forward.
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: Tabby Uprising on January 31, 2013, 12:54:16 PM
True.  However, a two year old doesn't look both ways when they dart across aisles, is way below eye level for most people, and doesn't walk in a straight line making them difficult for most people to see.  Add to that carts full of groceries which may totally obstruct the view of a small child.

I don't think that's true at all. I have a 21 month old, so I'm quite familiar with how big a two year old is. They are not difficult to see. The OP's son is not running, moving quickly, or darting across isles. He is moving at a normal pace and if other shoppers fail to see him it is because they are not paying attention.


  I am an adult - I have just graduated to being able to walk a store after months of therapy.  As an adult in a motorized cart, I was often difficult to see in a grocery store.  My head came to the top of the handle bar on the cart - and there were still times that I almost got hit because People , were not able to see me because the display was too big or at the intersection of two aisles and so forth.  Yes, it was absolutely my responsibility to make sure I was being uberwatchful for everyone and everything around me and I don't move unpredictably, change direction on a dime or suddenly stop - those things are notoriously hard to stop.- if the kid is not capable of watching for themselves - then they need to be under the parent's control. 
  Everyone needs to watch out while shopping - that includes adults with or with out kids present and it includes the kids themselves. But if  the kid is too young to watch out for himself it falls to the parent to be that much more vigilant because of it.  Keeping him beside you is the safe and polite thing to do.  I am honestly surprised that the adults in this situation are not glaring at the pair or saying some to the OP along the lines of "you watch out yourselves!" or some such...she must shop with a very tolerant bunch of people
 

But the OP is telling her son to "watch out" and she will then tell explain to the other shoppers she was talking to her son.  She's not telling other shoppers to "watch out". 

If a parent told her 2 year old to get out of my way while I was in the store, I wouldn't think it necessary to glare and snap "watch out yourselves" on top of that exchange.  No harm was done. 
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: mich3554 on January 31, 2013, 12:56:04 PM
I've never experienced this. If that is the case I will concede that what the OP's son is doing could be irritating. I still am not convinced that a person being short makes them more responsible to watch where they are going than other people. There are always children in the grocery store. It makes no sense to not be just as aware of them as the adults.

A free range toddler does not tend to move in patterns.

A few years ago, I was at an amusement park.  There was a toddler running at me, so I moved right so I'd was out of her path.  The child moved into my path.  So I moved again and again the child moved in the same direction I moved in.  Since I could not predict the child's movements, I just stopped and stepped aside, out of her current path.

Said toddler still ran smack into my legs and wound up on her tush, crying.  She ran into me, I was not moving and did not walk into her.  But *I* was at fault according to the parent and was told to "WATCH OUT".  I WAS watching out, and did what I could to avoid a collision. 

Add a shopping cart and a distracted shopper and the OP's child *could* wind up injured.  Carts (especially full ones) do not stop on a dime.
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: ettiquit on January 31, 2013, 12:57:11 PM
OP, near as I can tell, your only question to the board was to ask the best way to alert your son that he needs to look out and not appear to be rude to other shoppers.

I think the "watch out" is fine, but I would definitely always apologize to the shopper.  You could also try just saying your son's name to get his attention, and then there would be no doubt to other shoppers that you're not talking to them.  I really like Toots "stop your feet" game too.  Maybe you can just experiment with a few phrases and see what your son is most responsive to, and make sure to apologize if there are any near collisions. 

I'm trying to remember how old my DS was when I was finally able to get him to help me shop, and I think it was a little older than 2.  So maybe soon you'll have a good distraction for him.

Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: Moray on January 31, 2013, 01:06:43 PM
I've never experienced this. If that is the case I will concede that what the OP's son is doing could be irritating. I still am not convinced that a person being short makes them more responsible to watch where they are going than other people. There are always children in the grocery store. It makes no sense to not be just as aware of them as the adults.

A free range toddler does not tend to move in patterns.

A few years ago, I was at an amusement park.  There was a toddler running at me, so I moved right so I'd was out of her path.  The child moved into my path.  So I moved again and again the child moved in the same direction I moved in.  Since I could not predict the child's movements, I just stopped and stepped aside, out of her current path.

Said toddler still ran smack into my legs and wound up on her tush, crying.  She ran into me, I was not moving and did not walk into her.  But *I* was at fault according to the parent and was told to "WATCH OUT".  I WAS watching out, and did what I could to avoid a collision. 

Add a shopping cart and a distracted shopper and the OP's child *could* wind up injured.  Carts (especially full ones) do not stop on a dime.

This situation is completely different. The OP is redirecting her child. Her child won't wind up injured because she is looking out for him.

No, she's calling out "Watch out!" which may or may not be interpreted by the toddler as applying to him, and if he does determine it applies to him, it may be ignored. More to the point, because the toddler is wandering, and shygirl is shopping, she is physically incapable of keeping an eye on him every single second. Like the other shoppers, she has to look at the shelves and her list, and that gives Jr. an opportunity to wander in front of a stopped cart, around a blind corner, or even make a break for it and end up several aisles over.
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: LeveeWoman on January 31, 2013, 01:08:22 PM
Small children absolutely are difficult to see and move unpredictably. I do not want to spend my shopping trip watching out for them. I want to do my shopping. I expect parents to keep their children safe.

Whether or not you want to do it is irrelevent. As per etiquette, you are obligated to do it. There are a great many people in this world. A lot of them are short. You don't get to not watch out for them just because they are slightly harder to see. That's part of being a polite member of society.

As per etiquette, you should not let your child wander into the paths of others. Will it happen occasionally? Absolutely, but per etiquette you need to take steps to prevent your child, who you are solely responsible for, from bumping into others. I pay a great deal of attention to where I'm going in the store, but by virtue of actually, you know, shopping, my eyes are frequently going between my list and the shelves.

Which is exactly what the OP is doing when she tells her son to "watch out".

Posters keep saying that the OP is rude because she is allowing him to walk into other people. She's not. She is preventing him from walking into other people. That's what the entire thread is about. She may not be doing it in the way that other posters think is ideal, but to say that she isn't doing it all is inaccurate and extremely uncharitable.

Of course your eyes are going from the shelf to your list and back again. And as long as that is happening when your cart is stationary, you don't run the risk of hitting anyone.

When I'm moving, I cannot see directly in front of me due to where I place my purse on which I prop the notebook containing my list. Nor can I see if my cart is full if I have a tall object in it. And, while I'm moving, I'm also looking at the goods on the shelves.

It is quite conceivable that a toddler could be in front of me while I'm moving and I wouldn't see him. It is also concievable that a toddler could be in front of me while I'm stopped and about to start moving again. There is no way I can move my purse and clear my cart of the objects it holds every time I start walking again.

It is the parent's job to keep her kid out of harm's way.

If I heard a parent call, "Watch out!" while I'm moving or about to move again, I would think she or he is talking to me because I would not see the child to whom this is addressed, and it would irritate me.
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: LeveeWoman on January 31, 2013, 01:10:55 PM
I've never experienced this. If that is the case I will concede that what the OP's son is doing could be irritating. I still am not convinced that a person being short makes them more responsible to watch where they are going than other people. There are always children in the grocery store. It makes no sense to not be just as aware of them as the adults.

A free range toddler does not tend to move in patterns.

A few years ago, I was at an amusement park.  There was a toddler running at me, so I moved right so I'd was out of her path.  The child moved into my path.  So I moved again and again the child moved in the same direction I moved in.  Since I could not predict the child's movements, I just stopped and stepped aside, out of her current path.

Said toddler still ran smack into my legs and wound up on her tush, crying.  She ran into me, I was not moving and did not walk into her.  But *I* was at fault according to the parent and was told to "WATCH OUT".  I WAS watching out, and did what I could to avoid a collision. 

Add a shopping cart and a distracted shopper and the OP's child *could* wind up injured.  Carts (especially full ones) do not stop on a dime.

This situation is completely different. The OP is redirecting her child. Her child won't wind up injured because she is looking out for him.

A shopper could come along in a split second before shygirl calls to her son, and knock him down, or in the case of someone with mobility issues, be knocked down by  him. Redirecting is one thing. Physical control over a toddler is another.
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: Moray on January 31, 2013, 01:12:52 PM
Here's something I just don't get: What possible benefit is there to not having your child either strapped in or holding onto your cart or hand?
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: rashea on January 31, 2013, 01:14:41 PM
OP, I'll answer the question you asked first. I think that right or wrong, you should apologize. Because there are a lot of parents for whom that "watch out" would be directed to the other shopper. So a quick apology would go a long way in settling that question for the other person, and making you seem more polite.

On to the questions you didn't ask. I absolutely think that if you can control him to the point where he is never running into people, then what you are doing is okay. If not, then I think you need to find another solution. Because there are people who can't tolerate being run into even a little bit.

You might see if there is a local grocery store that has those mini-carts for children. Or a race-car cart that he might be willing to ride in.

You might also tell him that because he screams while holding your hand, you will need to practice at home or in the park. And when he learns not to scream, you won't have to practice and will be able to do something fun. Frankly, being able to hold a toddler's hand without them screaming seems to valuable a tool to not practice it.
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: DottyG on January 31, 2013, 01:15:05 PM
Quote
And, while I'm moving, I'm also looking at the goods on the shelves

I've been trying to think about the way that I shop.  And when I saw this sentence in the post above, it occurred to me that that's what I do.  When I'm shopping, I'm not, specifically, looking straight ahead of me.  I'm looking at the shelves to see where I need to go to get what I'm looking for.  I'm not disregarding what's in front of me and I do see out of the corner of my eyes to see if I'm running into something.  But, no.  I actually am not really always looking straight ahead of me when I shop.  I don't think anyone really does.  Stop and think about what you're doing when you're in the store.  You're probably looking at shelves more often than not, too.
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: Moray on January 31, 2013, 01:15:47 PM
OP, I'll answer the question you asked first. I think that right or wrong, you should apologize. Because there are a lot of parents for whom that "watch out" would be directed to the other shopper. So a quick apology would go a long way in settling that question for the other person, and making you seem more polite.

On to the questions you didn't ask. I absolutely think that if you can control him to the point where he is never running into people, then what you are doing is okay. If not, then I think you need to find another solution. Because there are people who can't tolerate being run into even a little bit.

You might see if there is a local grocery store that has those mini-carts for children. Or a race-car cart that he might be willing to ride in.

You might also tell him that because he screams while holding your hand, you will need to practice at home or in the park. And when he learns not to scream, you won't have to practice and will be able to do something fun. Frankly, being able to hold a toddler's hand without them screaming seems to valuable a tool to not practice it.

Very well stated.
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: Sharnita on January 31, 2013, 01:18:38 PM
"Watch out" works just fine as a response to a potential emergency. As long term behavior management it is problematic.
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: Tabby Uprising on January 31, 2013, 01:19:24 PM
I've never experienced this. If that is the case I will concede that what the OP's son is doing could be irritating. I still am not convinced that a person being short makes them more responsible to watch where they are going than other people. There are always children in the grocery store. It makes no sense to not be just as aware of them as the adults.

A free range toddler does not tend to move in patterns.

A few years ago, I was at an amusement park.  There was a toddler running at me, so I moved right so I'd was out of her path.  The child moved into my path.  So I moved again and again the child moved in the same direction I moved in.  Since I could not predict the child's movements, I just stopped and stepped aside, out of her current path.

Said toddler still ran smack into my legs and wound up on her tush, crying.  She ran into me, I was not moving and did not walk into her.  But *I* was at fault according to the parent and was told to "WATCH OUT".  I WAS watching out, and did what I could to avoid a collision. 

Add a shopping cart and a distracted shopper and the OP's child *could* wind up injured.  Carts (especially full ones) do not stop on a dime.

This situation is completely different. The OP is redirecting her child. Her child won't wind up injured because she is looking out for him.

A shopper could come along in a split second before shygirl calls to her son, and knock him down, or in the case of someone with mobility issues, be knocked down by  him. Redirecting is one thing. Physical control over a toddler is another.

But none of those things have happened with the OP and her son.  They are hypothetical situations.  They certainly could happen, but they could happen with any child and even with adults.  At some point the kids have to come out of the cart and come off the leash.  Everyone just needs to be careful and watch where they are going.  OP is managing this with her DS just fine.  There haven't been any accidents.  When he has the occasional toddler-drift, she gets him back on course. 
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: LeveeWoman on January 31, 2013, 01:19:44 PM
When I'm moving, I cannot see directly in front of me due to where I place my purse on which I prop the notebook containing my list. Nor can I see if my cart is full if I have a tall object in it. And, while I'm moving, I'm also looking at the goods on the shelves.

It is quite conceivable that a toddler could be in front of me while I'm moving and I wouldn't see him. It is also concievable that a toddler could be in front of me while I'm stopped and about to start moving again. There is no way I can move my purse and clear my cart of the objects it holds every time I start walking again.

It is the parent's job to keep her kid out of harm's way.

If I heard a parent call, "Watch out!" while I'm moving or about to move again, I would think she or he is talking to me because I would not see the child to whom this is addressed, and it would irritate me.

In that case I think you are being rude for looking elsewhere while moving your cart. You should be watching where you are going. And I am sorry, but just because something irritates you does not make it rude.

I should come to a stop every time I look at the shelves?

Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: snowdragon on January 31, 2013, 01:23:08 PM
I've never experienced this. If that is the case I will concede that what the OP's son is doing could be irritating. I still am not convinced that a person being short makes them more responsible to watch where they are going than other people. There are always children in the grocery store. It makes no sense to not be just as aware of them as the adults.

A free range toddler does not tend to move in patterns.

A few years ago, I was at an amusement park.  There was a toddler running at me, so I moved right so I'd was out of her path.  The child moved into my path.  So I moved again and again the child moved in the same direction I moved in.  Since I could not predict the child's movements, I just stopped and stepped aside, out of her current path.

Said toddler still ran smack into my legs and wound up on her tush, crying.  She ran into me, I was not moving and did not walk into her.  But *I* was at fault according to the parent and was told to "WATCH OUT".  I WAS watching out, and did what I could to avoid a collision. 

Add a shopping cart and a distracted shopper and the OP's child *could* wind up injured.  Carts (especially full ones) do not stop on a dime.

This situation is completely different. The OP is redirecting her child. Her child won't wind up injured because she is looking out for him.

A shopper could come along in a split second before shygirl calls to her son, and knock him down, or in the case of someone with mobility issues, be knocked down by  him. Redirecting is one thing. Physical control over a toddler is another.

But none of those things have happened with the OP and her son.  They are hypothetical situations.  They certainly could happen, but they could happen with any child and even with adults.  At some point the kids have to come out of the cart and come off the leash.  Everyone just needs to be careful and watch where they are going.  OP is managing this with her DS just fine.  There haven't been any accidents.  When he has the occasional toddler-drift, she gets him back on course. 

 And when it does who is responsible for the damage to the other shopper or the store's goods, hypothetically speaking, of course.


 Re - reading that I realize it came of at snarking...I am not meaning to be snarky I truely wonder where the financial responsibility lies but I don't want to make that question about the OP
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: Moray on January 31, 2013, 01:24:07 PM
Here's something I just don't get: What possible benefit is there to not having your child either strapped in or holding onto your cart or hand?

The same kind of benefit that comes with every new milestone, however small: independence. Very few milestones during toddlerhood are black and white. It's not a matter of being in the cart or walking unsupervised. The point that the OP is at is somewhere in between, where her son is allowed to walk, but she still watches where he is going and gives him verbal corrections.

The child still learns independence while holding onto the cart; furthermore, the OP has indicated that her reason for going free range is that the child objects to anything else. I am interested in the OP's response.
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: LeveeWoman on January 31, 2013, 01:24:30 PM
Quote
And, while I'm moving, I'm also looking at the goods on the shelves

I've been trying to think about the way that I shop.  And when I saw this sentence in the post above, it occurred to me that that's what I do.  When I'm shopping, I'm not, specifically, looking straight ahead of me.  I'm looking at the shelves to see where I need to go to get what I'm looking for. I'm not disregarding what's in front of me and I do see out of the corner of my eyes to see if I'm running into something.  But, no.  I actually am not really always looking straight ahead of me when I shop.  I don't think anyone really does.  Stop and think about what you're doing when you're in the store.  You're probably looking at shelves more often than not, too.

There is no way I could keep a look out for a toddler in this situation because my view is blocked by my purse and the items in my cart. I'd have to move my body from behind the cart to the side so that I could look in front of it, and my head from eye-level to the floor.

And, while I'm moving my body from the back of the cart, I'd have to make sure there was no one coming up from behind me so that I'd not be hit by their cart.

Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: Tabby Uprising on January 31, 2013, 01:25:56 PM
I've never experienced this. If that is the case I will concede that what the OP's son is doing could be irritating. I still am not convinced that a person being short makes them more responsible to watch where they are going than other people. There are always children in the grocery store. It makes no sense to not be just as aware of them as the adults.

A free range toddler does not tend to move in patterns.

A few years ago, I was at an amusement park.  There was a toddler running at me, so I moved right so I'd was out of her path.  The child moved into my path.  So I moved again and again the child moved in the same direction I moved in.  Since I could not predict the child's movements, I just stopped and stepped aside, out of her current path.

Said toddler still ran smack into my legs and wound up on her tush, crying.  She ran into me, I was not moving and did not walk into her.  But *I* was at fault according to the parent and was told to "WATCH OUT".  I WAS watching out, and did what I could to avoid a collision. 

Add a shopping cart and a distracted shopper and the OP's child *could* wind up injured.  Carts (especially full ones) do not stop on a dime.

This situation is completely different. The OP is redirecting her child. Her child won't wind up injured because she is looking out for him.

A shopper could come along in a split second before shygirl calls to her son, and knock him down, or in the case of someone with mobility issues, be knocked down by  him. Redirecting is one thing. Physical control over a toddler is another.

But none of those things have happened with the OP and her son.  They are hypothetical situations.  They certainly could happen, but they could happen with any child and even with adults.  At some point the kids have to come out of the cart and come off the leash.  Everyone just needs to be careful and watch where they are going.  OP is managing this with her DS just fine.  There haven't been any accidents.  When he has the occasional toddler-drift, she gets him back on course. 

 And when it does who is responsible for the damage to the other shopper or the store's goods, hypothetically speaking, of course.

Who is responsible for damage when people bump into each other?  It would probably depend on the specific circumstances of what happened.  And in that case, I'm sure there are appropriate authorities for sorting it all out.
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: Moray on January 31, 2013, 01:26:38 PM
When I'm moving, I cannot see directly in front of me due to where I place my purse on which I prop the notebook containing my list. Nor can I see if my cart is full if I have a tall object in it. And, while I'm moving, I'm also looking at the goods on the shelves.

It is quite conceivable that a toddler could be in front of me while I'm moving and I wouldn't see him. It is also concievable that a toddler could be in front of me while I'm stopped and about to start moving again. There is no way I can move my purse and clear my cart of the objects it holds every time I start walking again.

It is the parent's job to keep her kid out of harm's way.

If I heard a parent call, "Watch out!" while I'm moving or about to move again, I would think she or he is talking to me because I would not see the child to whom this is addressed, and it would irritate me.

In that case I think you are being rude for looking elsewhere while moving your cart. You should be watching where you are going. And I am sorry, but just because something irritates you does not make it rude.

I should come to a stop every time I look at the shelves?

Yes, if you are looking at the shelves you should be stopped. If you are glancing at them, which is what I think you are referring to, then no, I don't think you should have to stop. But the point is that you are probably not going to miss a veering toddler by glancing away for moment.

No, Dandy Andy's Daddy's Love. The point is that if the parent were controlling the toddler, there would be nothing to watch out for.
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: LeveeWoman on January 31, 2013, 01:28:26 PM
I've never experienced this. If that is the case I will concede that what the OP's son is doing could be irritating. I still am not convinced that a person being short makes them more responsible to watch where they are going than other people. There are always children in the grocery store. It makes no sense to not be just as aware of them as the adults.

A free range toddler does not tend to move in patterns.

A few years ago, I was at an amusement park.  There was a toddler running at me, so I moved right so I'd was out of her path.  The child moved into my path.  So I moved again and again the child moved in the same direction I moved in.  Since I could not predict the child's movements, I just stopped and stepped aside, out of her current path.

Said toddler still ran smack into my legs and wound up on her tush, crying.  She ran into me, I was not moving and did not walk into her.  But *I* was at fault according to the parent and was told to "WATCH OUT".  I WAS watching out, and did what I could to avoid a collision. 

Add a shopping cart and a distracted shopper and the OP's child *could* wind up injured.  Carts (especially full ones) do not stop on a dime.

This situation is completely different. The OP is redirecting her child. Her child won't wind up injured because she is looking out for him.

A shopper could come along in a split second before shygirl calls to her son, and knock him down, or in the case of someone with mobility issues, be knocked down by  him. Redirecting is one thing. Physical control over a toddler is another.

But none of those things have happened with the OP and her son.  They are hypothetical situations.  They certainly could happen, but they could happen with any child and even with adults.  At some point the kids have to come out of the cart and come off the leash.  Everyone just needs to be careful and watch where they are going.  OP is managing this with her DS just fine.  There haven't been any accidents.  When he has the occasional toddler-drift, she gets him back on course.

There is a potential that that could happen, and it is the job of the parent to keep her kid out of the way of others. Just because an accident hasn't happened yet doesn't mean one will not happen.

As for it happening to an adult, that's impossible if the adult is not the size of a typical two-year-old toddler.
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: DottyG on January 31, 2013, 01:28:50 PM
Quote
There is no way I could keep a look out for a toddler in this situation because my view is blocked by my purse and the items in my cart. I'd have to move my body from behind the cart to the side so that I could look in front of it, and my head from eye-level to the floor.

And, while I'm moving my body from the back of the cart, I'd have to make sure there was no one coming up from behind me so that I'd not be hit by their cart.

LeeveeWoman, I'm not disagreeing with you - I'm more addressing the comment that, when you're moving, you're always looking straight ahead of you.  That's not how people shop.  In fact, I'd be willing to bet that everyone is shopping pretty much the same way - when they're moving, they're also looking at shelves (not with tunnel vision to where they don't see elsewhere, but still not always looking straight ahead of them).

It's the same thing when you drive.  You don't constantly look tunnel-visioned straight ahead of you.  You're looking at cross streets and signs and the rear-view mirror, etc.  That's not to say that you barrel into other cars ahead of you - of course you're looking at what's in front of you.  But you're also looking at the street signs to see if this is where you turn right or whatever.

Editing to put the quote in that I was referring to
 
 
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: Moray on January 31, 2013, 01:30:26 PM
The child still learns independence while holding onto the cart; furthermore, the OP has indicated that her reason for going free range is that the child objects to anything else. I am interested in the OP's response.

Absolutely, and I think that at this point it may be a good idea. But he's going to have to let go of the cart sometime.

Yeah, when he's learned to pay better attention and not wander aimlessly. Most 2-3 year olds simply can't manage that, and the time to teach them isn't where it would inconvenience a whole bunch of other people. The time to teach him, as rashea pointed out, is in other situations where he can practice (and fail) without risk.
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: LeveeWoman on January 31, 2013, 01:32:51 PM
When I'm moving, I cannot see directly in front of me due to where I place my purse on which I prop the notebook containing my list. Nor can I see if my cart is full if I have a tall object in it. And, while I'm moving, I'm also looking at the goods on the shelves.

It is quite conceivable that a toddler could be in front of me while I'm moving and I wouldn't see him. It is also concievable that a toddler could be in front of me while I'm stopped and about to start moving again. There is no way I can move my purse and clear my cart of the objects it holds every time I start walking again.

It is the parent's job to keep her kid out of harm's way.

If I heard a parent call, "Watch out!" while I'm moving or about to move again, I would think she or he is talking to me because I would not see the child to whom this is addressed, and it would irritate me.

In that case I think you are being rude for looking elsewhere while moving your cart. You should be watching where you are going. And I am sorry, but just because something irritates you does not make it rude.

I should come to a stop every time I look at the shelves?

Yes, if you are looking at the shelves you should be stopped. If you are glancing at them, which is what I think you are referring to, then no, I don't think you should have to stop. But the point is that you are probably not going to miss a veering toddler by glancing away for moment.

Yes, that is what I'm doing. But, I still would not be able to see a child in front of my cart, even if I were standing still. Nor should I be obligated to check the front of my cart everytime I start moving again or when I'm moving. It's not my job.
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: snowdragon on January 31, 2013, 01:34:04 PM
No, Dandy Andy's Daddy's Love. The point is that if the parent were controlling the toddler, there would be nothing to watch out for.

The parent is controlling the toddler.

If he is bumping into walls, doors and people as stated in the OP ( true she's modified it but her OP stated that he runs into "walls, doors and people for the past few months") she is not.  It's one thing at home - it's totally another in a public place. The kid may be part of "the public" but everyone else is too and shopping should not be an obstacle course.
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: LeveeWoman on January 31, 2013, 01:34:34 PM
Quote
There is no way I could keep a look out for a toddler in this situation because my view is blocked by my purse and the items in my cart. I'd have to move my body from behind the cart to the side so that I could look in front of it, and my head from eye-level to the floor.

And, while I'm moving my body from the back of the cart, I'd have to make sure there was no one coming up from behind me so that I'd not be hit by their cart.

LeeveeWoman, I'm not disagreeing with you - I'm more addressing the comment that, when you're moving, you're always looking straight ahead of you.  That's not how people shop.  In fact, I'd be willing to bet that everyone is shopping pretty much the same way - when they're moving, they're also looking at shelves (not with tunnel vision to where they don't see elsewhere, but still not always looking straight ahead of them).

It's the same thing when you drive.  You don't constantly look tunnel-visioned straight ahead of you.  You're looking at cross streets and signs and the rear-view mirror, etc.  That's not to say that you barrel into other cars ahead of you - of course you're looking at what's in front of you.  But you're also looking at the street signs to see if this is where you turn right or whatever.

Editing to put the quote in that I was referring to

Oh, I'm agreeing with you as well.
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: Moray on January 31, 2013, 01:35:25 PM
No, Dandy Andy's Daddy's Love. The point is that if the parent were controlling the toddler, there would be nothing to watch out for.

The parent is controlling the toddler.

Not well enough, if the other shoppers are required to do a 360 scan every time they inch forwards because they're no longer allowed to scan the shelves while moving. :)
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: TootsNYC on January 31, 2013, 01:35:53 PM
Shygirl, I think you're fine.  My only recommendation would be to say "Watch out, DS" and then apologize to the person he got in the way of.  You describe him as walking, not running and state he's about 1-2 feet away from you.  He's not running amok.  He doesn't have a vision problem.  He's two and isn't vigilant about watching where he's going.

You're getting criticized for sometimes giving him fries when he's in the shopping cart so he doesn't cry.  But I've seen threads get really heated here when parents are in public with fussing/crying children and many posters feel that's rude.  Some people think you're wrong to have him quiet with fries in a cart, some people will think you're rude to let him fuss it out minus the fries in the cart, and others may think you should stay home and order groceries online.

You can't please everyone and it sounds like you are making the best of a tricky situation.  No actual individuals have been harmed.  All you've had to do is remind your son to watch where he's going when he's walking.  Continue to keep an eye on him and try other methods to keep him engaged in your errands.

Good luck!


Clap, clap, clap!!!!

Thanks!
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: Tabby Uprising on January 31, 2013, 01:37:38 PM
I've never experienced this. If that is the case I will concede that what the OP's son is doing could be irritating. I still am not convinced that a person being short makes them more responsible to watch where they are going than other people. There are always children in the grocery store. It makes no sense to not be just as aware of them as the adults.

A free range toddler does not tend to move in patterns.

A few years ago, I was at an amusement park.  There was a toddler running at me, so I moved right so I'd was out of her path.  The child moved into my path.  So I moved again and again the child moved in the same direction I moved in.  Since I could not predict the child's movements, I just stopped and stepped aside, out of her current path.

Said toddler still ran smack into my legs and wound up on her tush, crying.  She ran into me, I was not moving and did not walk into her.  But *I* was at fault according to the parent and was told to "WATCH OUT".  I WAS watching out, and did what I could to avoid a collision. 

Add a shopping cart and a distracted shopper and the OP's child *could* wind up injured.  Carts (especially full ones) do not stop on a dime.

This situation is completely different. The OP is redirecting her child. Her child won't wind up injured because she is looking out for him.

A shopper could come along in a split second before shygirl calls to her son, and knock him down, or in the case of someone with mobility issues, be knocked down by  him. Redirecting is one thing. Physical control over a toddler is another.

But none of those things have happened with the OP and her son.  They are hypothetical situations.  They certainly could happen, but they could happen with any child and even with adults.  At some point the kids have to come out of the cart and come off the leash.  Everyone just needs to be careful and watch where they are going.  OP is managing this with her DS just fine.  There haven't been any accidents.  When he has the occasional toddler-drift, she gets him back on course.

There is a potential that that could happen, and it is the job of the parent to keep her kid out of the way of others. Just because an accident hasn't happened yet doesn't mean one will not happen.

As for it happening to an adult, that's impossible if the adult is not the size of a typical two-year-old toddler.

A parent, short of having constant physical contact on their child, can never fully guarantee they won't veer/run/get in someone's way.  Not just toddlers, but 4 year olds or 8 year olds can potentially act out and cause calamity.  I don't think that etiquette demands a parent must have physical control over children to ensure potential accidents do not occur.

And plenty of adults have careless moments.  I've seen adults pushing loaded shopping carts out into the main aisles at a brisk pace without checking to see for cross-traffic.  Adults can go too fast and not watch where they are going. It's human!  So accidents can result from these behaviors be they from adults or children.  When everyone is careful, we minimize that risk.  And as I mentioned, in my opinion, that doesn't mean a parent must always exercise constant physical control over their child.
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: rashea on January 31, 2013, 01:38:14 PM
No, Dandy Andy's Daddy's Love. The point is that if the parent were controlling the toddler, there would be nothing to watch out for.

The parent is controlling the toddler.

I think if she's reverting to "yelling" (or even loudly speaking) "watch out" most times (OP, maybe you could clarify, but I got the impression it was pretty regular) they have these short "5 minute" trips into the grocery store then she isn't controlling him. In a 5 minute trip if he can't pay attention enough that she reminds him repeatedly and still has to say "watch out" then he isn't ready to walk independently.
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: LeveeWoman on January 31, 2013, 01:41:52 PM
I've never experienced this. If that is the case I will concede that what the OP's son is doing could be irritating. I still am not convinced that a person being short makes them more responsible to watch where they are going than other people. There are always children in the grocery store. It makes no sense to not be just as aware of them as the adults.

A free range toddler does not tend to move in patterns.

A few years ago, I was at an amusement park.  There was a toddler running at me, so I moved right so I'd was out of her path.  The child moved into my path.  So I moved again and again the child moved in the same direction I moved in.  Since I could not predict the child's movements, I just stopped and stepped aside, out of her current path.

Said toddler still ran smack into my legs and wound up on her tush, crying.  She ran into me, I was not moving and did not walk into her.  But *I* was at fault according to the parent and was told to "WATCH OUT".  I WAS watching out, and did what I could to avoid a collision. 

Add a shopping cart and a distracted shopper and the OP's child *could* wind up injured.  Carts (especially full ones) do not stop on a dime.

This situation is completely different. The OP is redirecting her child. Her child won't wind up injured because she is looking out for him.

A shopper could come along in a split second before shygirl calls to her son, and knock him down, or in the case of someone with mobility issues, be knocked down by  him. Redirecting is one thing. Physical control over a toddler is another.

But none of those things have happened with the OP and her son.  They are hypothetical situations.  They certainly could happen, but they could happen with any child and even with adults.  At some point the kids have to come out of the cart and come off the leash.  Everyone just needs to be careful and watch where they are going.  OP is managing this with her DS just fine.  There haven't been any accidents.  When he has the occasional toddler-drift, she gets him back on course.

There is a potential that that could happen, and it is the job of the parent to keep her kid out of the way of others. Just because an accident hasn't happened yet doesn't mean one will not happen.

As for it happening to an adult, that's impossible if the adult is not the size of a typical two-year-old toddler.

A parent, short of having constant physical contact on their child, can never fully guarantee they won't veer/run/get in someone's way.  Not just toddlers, but 4 year olds or 8 year olds can potentially act out and cause calamity.  I don't think that etiquette demands a parent must have physical control over children to ensure potential accidents do not occur.

And plenty of adults have careless moments.  I've seen adults pushing loaded shopping carts out into the main aisles at a brisk pace without checking to see for cross-traffic.  Adults can go too fast and not watch where they are going. It's human!  So accidents can result from these behaviors be they from adults or children.  When everyone is careful, we minimize that risk.  And as I mentioned, in my opinion, that doesn't mean a parent must always exercise constant physical control over their child.

We are not talking about four-year-old or eight-year-old children, or about adults. We are talking about a two-year-old child. I believe that etiquette demands that we keep kids of that age from being a danger to themselves and to others in such places as a grocery store.
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: Moray on January 31, 2013, 01:42:06 PM
I've never experienced this. If that is the case I will concede that what the OP's son is doing could be irritating. I still am not convinced that a person being short makes them more responsible to watch where they are going than other people. There are always children in the grocery store. It makes no sense to not be just as aware of them as the adults.

A free range toddler does not tend to move in patterns.

A few years ago, I was at an amusement park.  There was a toddler running at me, so I moved right so I'd was out of her path.  The child moved into my path.  So I moved again and again the child moved in the same direction I moved in.  Since I could not predict the child's movements, I just stopped and stepped aside, out of her current path.

Said toddler still ran smack into my legs and wound up on her tush, crying.  She ran into me, I was not moving and did not walk into her.  But *I* was at fault according to the parent and was told to "WATCH OUT".  I WAS watching out, and did what I could to avoid a collision. 

Add a shopping cart and a distracted shopper and the OP's child *could* wind up injured.  Carts (especially full ones) do not stop on a dime.

This situation is completely different. The OP is redirecting her child. Her child won't wind up injured because she is looking out for him.

A shopper could come along in a split second before shygirl calls to her son, and knock him down, or in the case of someone with mobility issues, be knocked down by  him. Redirecting is one thing. Physical control over a toddler is another.

But none of those things have happened with the OP and her son.  They are hypothetical situations.  They certainly could happen, but they could happen with any child and even with adults.  At some point the kids have to come out of the cart and come off the leash.  Everyone just needs to be careful and watch where they are going.  OP is managing this with her DS just fine.  There haven't been any accidents.  When he has the occasional toddler-drift, she gets him back on course.

There is a potential that that could happen, and it is the job of the parent to keep her kid out of the way of others. Just because an accident hasn't happened yet doesn't mean one will not happen.

As for it happening to an adult, that's impossible if the adult is not the size of a typical two-year-old toddler.

A parent, short of having constant physical contact on their child, can never fully guarantee they won't veer/run/get in someone's way.  Not just toddlers, but 4 year olds or 8 year olds can potentially act out and cause calamity.  I don't think that etiquette demands a parent must have physical control over children to ensure potential accidents do not occur.

And plenty of adults have careless moments.  I've seen adults pushing loaded shopping carts out into the main aisles at a brisk pace without checking to see for cross-traffic.  Adults can go too fast and not watch where they are going. It's human!  So accidents can result from these behaviors be they from adults or children.  When everyone is careful, we minimize that risk.  And as I mentioned, in my opinion, that doesn't mean a parent must always exercise constant physical control over their child.

I think you have to apply some sort of "reasonable person test" to this. So, is it reasonable to expect most adults, or most 4 or 8 year olds not to go wandering off to the extent that they have to be reminded several times in the span of a few minutes? The answer is clearly yes. Is it reasonable to expect that level of control from a 2-3 year old who has consistently demonstrated he isn't capable? No, it really isn't. Other measures, like maintaining physical contact or putting him in the cart are needed.
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: snowdragon on January 31, 2013, 01:44:43 PM
No, Dandy Andy's Daddy's Love. The point is that if the parent were controlling the toddler, there would be nothing to watch out for.

The parent is controlling the toddler.

I think if she's reverting to "yelling" (or even loudly speaking) "watch out" most times (OP, maybe you could clarify, but I got the impression it was pretty regular) they have these short "5 minute" trips into the grocery store then she isn't controlling him. In a 5 minute trip if he can't pay attention enough that she reminds him repeatedly and still has to say "watch out" then he isn't ready to walk independently.

I am all for toddlers being under physical control of their guardians - but actually what  you describe is a pretty typical toddler
. That's why I think they need to be under physical control in public, it's not that the toddler is bad or the parent is negligent , but that they are like living Tiggers "(bounce,bounce, bounce and oh yeah, BOUNCE) and can cause issues for them selves or others. 4 year olds, 8 years or even 30 years old just don't have that  energy or daredevilness that makes two year olds so fun - and dangerous.
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: Tabby Uprising on January 31, 2013, 01:49:19 PM
I've never experienced this. If that is the case I will concede that what the OP's son is doing could be irritating. I still am not convinced that a person being short makes them more responsible to watch where they are going than other people. There are always children in the grocery store. It makes no sense to not be just as aware of them as the adults.

A free range toddler does not tend to move in patterns.

A few years ago, I was at an amusement park.  There was a toddler running at me, so I moved right so I'd was out of her path.  The child moved into my path.  So I moved again and again the child moved in the same direction I moved in.  Since I could not predict the child's movements, I just stopped and stepped aside, out of her current path.

Said toddler still ran smack into my legs and wound up on her tush, crying.  She ran into me, I was not moving and did not walk into her.  But *I* was at fault according to the parent and was told to "WATCH OUT".  I WAS watching out, and did what I could to avoid a collision. 

Add a shopping cart and a distracted shopper and the OP's child *could* wind up injured.  Carts (especially full ones) do not stop on a dime.

This situation is completely different. The OP is redirecting her child. Her child won't wind up injured because she is looking out for him.

A shopper could come along in a split second before shygirl calls to her son, and knock him down, or in the case of someone with mobility issues, be knocked down by  him. Redirecting is one thing. Physical control over a toddler is another.

But none of those things have happened with the OP and her son.  They are hypothetical situations.  They certainly could happen, but they could happen with any child and even with adults.  At some point the kids have to come out of the cart and come off the leash.  Everyone just needs to be careful and watch where they are going.  OP is managing this with her DS just fine.  There haven't been any accidents.  When he has the occasional toddler-drift, she gets him back on course.

There is a potential that that could happen, and it is the job of the parent to keep her kid out of the way of others. Just because an accident hasn't happened yet doesn't mean one will not happen.

As for it happening to an adult, that's impossible if the adult is not the size of a typical two-year-old toddler.

A parent, short of having constant physical contact on their child, can never fully guarantee they won't veer/run/get in someone's way.  Not just toddlers, but 4 year olds or 8 year olds can potentially act out and cause calamity.  I don't think that etiquette demands a parent must have physical control over children to ensure potential accidents do not occur.

And plenty of adults have careless moments.  I've seen adults pushing loaded shopping carts out into the main aisles at a brisk pace without checking to see for cross-traffic.  Adults can go too fast and not watch where they are going. It's human!  So accidents can result from these behaviors be they from adults or children.  When everyone is careful, we minimize that risk.  And as I mentioned, in my opinion, that doesn't mean a parent must always exercise constant physical control over their child.

We are not talking about four-year-old or eight-year-old children, or about adults. We are talking about a two-year-old child. I believe that etiquette demands that we keep kids of that age from being a danger to themselves and to others in such places as a grocery store.

Okay, specifically to the OP we are talking about a 2 year old.  A 2 year old who is walking and only 1-2 feet away from his mother.  He has not run amok. He has not caused an accident.  He has not bumped into a person or a cart. 

He has drifted, yes, but his mother has told him to "watch out" and thus remedied the situation. 

4 year olds, 8 year olds, accidents, and running amok are all outside of the OP.  I do agree with that!
Title: Re: At the grocery with my 2-year old
Post by: LeveeWoman on January 31, 2013, 01:59:14 PM
Okay, specifically to the OP we are talking about a 2 year old.  A 2 year old who is walking and only 1-2 feet away from his mother.  He has not run amok. He has not caused an accident.  He has not bumped into a person or a cart. 

He has drifted, yes, but his mother has told him to "watch out" and thus remedied the situation. 

CUT

To me, the key is the unspoken word "yet". Just because he has not done so as of now does not mean that he will not do so in the future. Calling out to the toddler is not nearly as safe as having physical control over him.