Etiquette Hell

General Etiquette => Life...in general => Topic started by: Nikko-chan on February 13, 2013, 07:12:17 AM

Title: Bullying in college-- how to handle? TINY Update 49, 62, 71, Final Update 86
Post by: Nikko-chan on February 13, 2013, 07:12:17 AM
I am in a small community college. There is a person here who is, to put it plainly, a bully. He harasses my best guy friend and I, constantly claiming to anyone who will listen that my friend and I are "going together". And of course, everyone believes this guy, so now I have to rush around and do damage control-- "No we are just friends, no we aren't going out." etc., not because I don't like my friend, but because rumors flying around are not good and can get out of control quickly.  He also is very mouthy to our Professor in a class we both have together, and takes the opportunity to bully me there as well. His being mouthy to the professor and being smart mean I can't learn as much as I could because our learning is being punctuated with the professor trying to get him to shut up.
 I can't stop it without being impolite. I admit one day I did go off on him, telling him to "Shut the ehell up." when he was saying something again. Finally Monday I just decided to ignore him. It didn't work. I can't retaliate and well, frankly, we are in college, we have long since left the playground and childish bullying should no longer be happening.

Any way I can handle this situation gracefully?
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle?
Post by: fountainsoflettuce on February 13, 2013, 08:15:06 AM
I don't think this is bullying.  Bullying is now so overused its lost its meaning.  Now, there are bullies but  it really sounds like the guy is just your typical ________ that you run across in the real world.  Talk to the Professor and let him know that the guy is affecting your ability to learn.  Talk to someone in the Dean's office.  At the end of the day, you're going to have to develop some thick skin and ignore him.  Consider this training for the real world.
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle?
Post by: audrey1962 on February 13, 2013, 08:36:57 AM
Ignore him. And don't go running around doing damage control. Your friends will know the truth. For those that don't: is it really that important they know your friend is not your boyfriend? Of course, if someone asks you directly, you should correct the person: "No, we're just friends." Or if you're in a group project you can bring it up casusally. But I wouldn't waste time pro-actively telling people this.
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle?
Post by: cicero on February 13, 2013, 08:48:01 AM
i agree with audrey. stop giving him so much power! what do you care what some jerk says about you? let him say whatever he wants. whether you and your friend are or are not "going together" is really nobody's business and if people want to be involved in petty gossip - well, then, you may need to make new friends.

when you let him "get to you" like this, when you feel that he is not "letting you learn" as much - you are letting him control you. you don't need to do this. concentrate on your studies, and keep a mental picture of yourself sticking your fingers in your ears and going "nyah nyah nyah nyah nyaaaah".
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle?
Post by: suzieQ on February 13, 2013, 09:01:00 AM
Ignore him.
This kind of reminds me of my kindergarten class, when one of the kids comes to me and says "Frank said I'm not going to Disney World next week, but I am!"
So what if Frank says you aren't doing something that you are doing?
I ask them "are you going to Disney World?" They say "yes" and I tell them to ignore Frank. Just because he says something does not make it true.
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle?
Post by: TurtleDove on February 13, 2013, 09:05:58 AM
I don't think this is bullying.  Bullying is now so overused its lost its meaning.  Now, there are bullies but  it really sounds like the guy is just your typical ________ that you run across in the real world.  Talk to the Professor and let him know that the guy is affecting your ability to learn.  Talk to someone in the Dean's office.  At the end of the day, you're going to have to develop some thick skin and ignore him.  Consider this training for the real world.

POD.
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle?
Post by: SeptGurl on February 13, 2013, 09:10:03 AM
POD PPs who say ignore him. Don't give him the power to affect you. Show him that it doesn't.
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle?
Post by: Yvaine on February 13, 2013, 09:13:34 AM
I don't think this is bullying.  Bullying is now so overused its lost its meaning.  Now, there are bullies but  it really sounds like the guy is just your typical ________ that you run across in the real world.  Talk to the Professor and let him know that the guy is affecting your ability to learn.  Talk to someone in the Dean's office.  At the end of the day, you're going to have to develop some thick skin and ignore him.  Consider this training for the real world.

Agreed. I think he's a pain in the (donkey), not a bully. dating rumors don't really require that much damage control at college age--in fact, the more fuss made about them, the more they sound true. If someone asks you about it, roll your eyes and talk about how ridiculous this guy is.

As for him being a pain in class, that's the professor's responsibility to rein him in. Can you approach your professor about the disruptions? It may be that the professor doesn't find the behavior as distracting as you do (some profs LOVE to argue in class) and so he hasn't noticed how it affects his students. Or maybe the prof is completely ineffectual and you could go to his department head.
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle?
Post by: Nikko-chan on February 13, 2013, 09:32:27 AM
I don't think this is bullying.  Bullying is now so overused its lost its meaning.  Now, there are bullies but  it really sounds like the guy is just your typical ________ that you run across in the real world.  Talk to the Professor and let him know that the guy is affecting your ability to learn.  Talk to someone in the Dean's office.  At the end of the day, you're going to have to develop some thick skin and ignore him.  Consider this training for the real world.

Agreed. I think he's a pain in the (donkey), not a bully. dating rumors don't really require that much damage control at college age--in fact, the more fuss made about them, the more they sound true. If someone asks you about it, roll your eyes and talk about how ridiculous this guy is.

As for him being a pain in class, that's the professor's responsibility to rein him in. Can you approach your professor about the disruptions? It may be that the professor doesn't find the behavior as distracting as you do (some profs LOVE to argue in class) and so he hasn't noticed how it affects his students. Or maybe the prof is completely ineffectual and you could go to his department head.

We've (the professor and I) have talked about this multiple times. I tell him I can't learn as well. And it's not really stuff that's up for debate, Yvaine. It's an art class. So the student is making remarks to rile the teacher up, like "so and so artist is stupid" "this art sucks" "who thinks this is art?" And monday he even tried to make a deal with the teacher "If you let us do a group project, I will be quiet (read: not disrupt the class) for the rest of the day." O.o Who does that? Teacher didn't bite and he ended up disrupting the class. There has been at least one student who told him off in class. It's a very small class too, maybe ten of us.

A lot of you said ignore him. That was what I did monday but it felt really rude. He kept asking me "How old are you?" over and over again and I didn't answer him (mind you he had asked me friday and i told him it wasn't his business, though in a slightly politer way). And meanwhile I am left thinking "What business of it is yours how old I am?" So in these situations is it okay to ignore?
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle?
Post by: audrey1962 on February 13, 2013, 09:40:14 AM
We've (the professor and I) have talked about this multiple times. I tell him I can't learn as well. And it's not really stuff that's up for debate, Yvaine. It's an art class. So the student is making remarks to rile the teacher up, like "so and so artist is stupid" "this art sucks" "who thinks this is art?" And monday he even tried to make a deal with the teacher "If you let us do a group project, I will be quiet (read: not disrupt the class) for the rest of the day." O.o Who does that? Teacher didn't bite and he ended up disrupting the class. There has been at least one student who told him off in class. It's a very small class too, maybe ten of us.

Wait and see how the instructor is handling it. It's possible your instructor has already taken steps, but sometimes things must be documented and policies followed before actions are taken.


ETA: After re-reading your post, I'm changing my advice: Go to the Dean. I think you've given the instructor enough time to deal with this.

Quote
A lot of you said ignore him. That was what I did monday but it felt really rude. He kept asking me "How old are you?" over and over again and I didn't answer him (mind you he had asked me friday and i told him it wasn't his business, though in a slightly politer way). And meanwhile I am left thinking "What business of it is yours how old I am?" So in these situations is it okay to ignore?

It's okay to ignore rude people. Just as we are not obligated to give our attention to salespeople hawking their wares in mall kiosks or street corners, or to engage in conversation with telemarketers. A polite, "I can't talk right now" is all you need to say, then ignore.

Is this happening during class time?
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle?
Post by: cicero on February 13, 2013, 09:43:46 AM
I don't think this is bullying.  Bullying is now so overused its lost its meaning.  Now, there are bullies but  it really sounds like the guy is just your typical ________ that you run across in the real world.  Talk to the Professor and let him know that the guy is affecting your ability to learn.  Talk to someone in the Dean's office.  At the end of the day, you're going to have to develop some thick skin and ignore him.  Consider this training for the real world.

Agreed. I think he's a pain in the (donkey), not a bully. dating rumors don't really require that much damage control at college age--in fact, the more fuss made about them, the more they sound true. If someone asks you about it, roll your eyes and talk about how ridiculous this guy is.

As for him being a pain in class, that's the professor's responsibility to rein him in. Can you approach your professor about the disruptions? It may be that the professor doesn't find the behavior as distracting as you do (some profs LOVE to argue in class) and so he hasn't noticed how it affects his students. Or maybe the prof is completely ineffectual and you could go to his department head.

We've (the professor and I) have talked about this multiple times. I tell him I can't learn as well. And it's not really stuff that's up for debate, Yvaine. It's an art class. So the student is making remarks to rile the teacher up, like "so and so artist is stupid" "this art sucks" "who thinks this is art?" And monday he even tried to make a deal with the teacher "If you let us do a group project, I will be quiet (read: not disrupt the class) for the rest of the day." O.o Who does that? Teacher didn't bite and he ended up disrupting the class. There has been at least one student who told him off in class. It's a very small class too, maybe ten of us.

A lot of you said ignore him. That was what I did monday but it felt really rude. He kept asking me "How old are you?" over and over again and I didn't answer him (mind you he had asked me friday and i told him it wasn't his business, though in a slightly politer way). And meanwhile I am left thinking "What business of it is yours how old I am?" So in these situations is it okay to ignore?
first - if the prof can't (or won't) deal with this, and you've spoken to him numerous times about it, then take it up the chain. he should be given *a* warning and then asked to find another school.

second - of course it's not rude to not reply to him! in fact, i would imagine that he is picking on you, "because he can". this is not to say that this is your *fault* (it's not. he's totally being a doofus), but people like him tend to find the "nice" people, and latch on.

Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle?
Post by: WillyNilly on February 13, 2013, 09:51:05 AM
A lot of you said ignore him. That was what I did monday but it felt really rude. He kept asking me "How old are you?" over and over again and I didn't answer him (mind you he had asked me friday and i told him it wasn't his business, though in a slightly politer way). And meanwhile I am left thinking "What business of it is yours how old I am?" So in these situations is it okay to ignore?

I recognize your screen name so I know you have been on these boards for a while.
Well, you know how pretty regularly someone posts a whole thing about how women are trained to "be nice" and all that?  How we are taught to smile and do and as we are told and be obedient, etc?  You are falling prey to that.  It feels rude to you to ignore his harassment because its "not nice" to ignore him.  But its not rude.  Polite =/= nice and not nice =/= rude.  You can be perfectly polite while still not being nice.
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle?
Post by: Hillia on February 13, 2013, 09:54:49 AM
Seriously?  This guy sounds like he has some developmental issues...hr's behaving like an elementary school age kid.  Why hasn't he been removed from the class?  Go to the dean's office and complain, not about his 3rd grade teasing, but about his deliberate disruption of class and the teacher's refusal to deal with it.  He's obviously not interested in learning anything about art.
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle?
Post by: audrey1962 on February 13, 2013, 10:02:47 AM
Seriously?  This guy sounds like he has some developmental issues...hr's behaving like an elementary school age kid.  Why hasn't he been removed from the class?  Go to the dean's office and complain, not about his 3rd grade teasing, but about his deliberate disruption of class and the teacher's refusal to deal with it.  He's obviously not interested in learning anything about art.

I agree. When I first read your post #8, I had a failure in reading comprehension and didn't realize you had already spoken to the instructor multiple times and specifically said it was effecting your learning. Go to the Dean. If that doesn't work, go to the Provost. If nothing is resolved, seriously consider if you want to be spending your tutition dollars in an environment where you can't learn.
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle?
Post by: fountainsoflettuce on February 13, 2013, 10:10:10 AM
Seriously?  This guy sounds like he has some developmental issues...hr's behaving like an elementary school age kid.  Why hasn't he been removed from the class?  Go to the dean's office and complain, not about his 3rd grade teasing, but about his deliberate disruption of class and the teacher's refusal to deal with it.  He's obviously not interested in learning anything about art.

I agree. When I first read your post #8, I had a failure in reading comprehension and didn't realize you had already spoken to the instructor multiple times and specifically said it was effecting your learning. Go to the Dean. If that doesn't work, go to the Provost. If nothing is resolved, seriously consider if you want to be spending your tutition dollars in an environment where you can't learn.

And if that doesn't work, chalk it up to life experience.   Some times we just get bad students in class and not much can be done.  Same with work. 

The guy is like a shark and he smells blood on you.  He likes to purposely rile you up b/c he likes the attention he gets.  It is ok to ignore him.  He is only causing you to look like a dumb high-schooler doing "damage control."
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle?
Post by: Lynn2000 on February 13, 2013, 10:11:37 AM
This guys sounds really juvenile. Like you said, you're in college, you're all (probably) legal adults now, people should be beyond this ridiculous behavior. One great thing about college, at least IME, is that there's a whole bureaucracy in place that I at least didn't have in my high school--if you've talked to your direct instructor and they won't do anything, talk to the next person in line above them. For example, if this is an art class, there is probably an Art Department which has a Head or Dean. If you have an academic advisor you could also talk to them and ask them what the proper channels are.

I went to a very large university, so this may be a different situation from you, but rumors about who was dating who were of exactly zero interest to anyone. Again, you are adults now, and who you're dating (or not) is no one's business but yours. I would be tempted to laugh in Joe the Jerk's face at his pathetic attempt to stir up drama with this. Don't act like it's a big deal and it will die out.

It is definitely fine to ignore someone who is bothering you. Don't even look over at him or acknowledge him in any way. If possible, sit on the opposite side of the room from him. Tell the teacher that if Joe bothers you in class again you're going to move, so she knows. And then do it, even in the middle of class. I would expect the teacher to then not allow Joe to move to follow you; if she doesn't stop him, that's one more thing you can talk to the Dean about. Frankly I would expect her to have kicked a mouthy brat like Joe out of her class a long time ago--this is not like high school where there's some obligation to somehow teach all the students who show up. The students here in college are paying for their education and Joe is ruining that for at least one of them.
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle?
Post by: JoyinVirginia on February 13, 2013, 10:18:16 AM
This us a disruptive student who needs to have some consequences. Is he doing anything that might be interpreted as sexual harassment? Discussion with the dean or an administrator might be able to clarify that.  you are perfectly fine to refuse to engage or talk to this person at all. This is not a social situation. You are paying for a service -   the class - which is not being provided because of this persons actions. You have every right to complain to the service provider.
If you do not get satisfactory response from administration, I suggest you contact your state legislator. I am assuming the community college gets state funding. This is why legislators have office staff, they do get questions and complaints about all kinds of things all the time.
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle?
Post by: Moray on February 13, 2013, 10:38:05 AM
This situation reads a little bit like the classic "I'm not touching you. I'm not touching you. I'm not touching you!" exchange everyone has had sometime in their early childhood. Unless you stop rising to his bait, it's going to be pretty difficult. He's not bullying you, he's being a jerk, a smart[redacted], and a clown. So treat him like one. Stop giving him the satisfaction of getting you all flustered. You'll probably encounter more of these jokers as you progress through your academic career and then out into the workplace. They don't deserve your time or mental energy.


I do think it's the professor's responsibility to rein him in regarding class disruptions, but I also think that his lack of response could indicate that you find it far more annoying than other students who may just laugh it off. The offering to simmer down in exchange for a group project, for example. That's so ridiculous as to be laughable, worthy of an eyeroll at worst, and it probably was for most of the class.


 
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle?
Post by: onyonryngs on February 13, 2013, 10:44:36 AM
I went to a community college - rumors don't matter in the slightest.  No one cares, trust me.  Just ignore him and maybe speak to the instructor about the classroom disruption.
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle?
Post by: gramma dishes on February 13, 2013, 10:46:48 AM
You have no reason to feel that you need to be "nice" to him.

Don't you think he's coming off looking like a complete and total donkey's behind to EVERYONE?  Certainly the teacher and the other students in the class realize what infantile behavior this is. 

If it seems he picks on you specifically it's probably because you are the only one who seems flustered by it. 

Having said that, I think the professor would be well advised to throw this chump out of class.  There is no reason for him/her to be that tolerant.  I'm surprised it hasn't happened.  Is this guy the son of the college President or Chairman of the Board or something?  ;)
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle?
Post by: Nikko-chan on February 13, 2013, 10:48:36 AM
I will reply to everyone's posts when I have more time (have to get ready to go for round two here in a moment, and the first class up is Art... the one with this fellow in it) but I just wanted to let everyone know that we... don't have a Dean. At least not at my college. Like they have it at Main Campus, because there are tons of students that go there. At LittleCampus we don't have that, because it wouldn't make sense to have two deans, and it's small. I do have an idea of who to go to now that you mentioned that.
Also wanted to add: teacher did yank him out of class one day and gave him what for. We all knew what the teacher was doing when he pulled the kid out of class, considering he had been acting like a jerk for weeks. I'll give the teacher one more chance to get this matter resolved, then I will move up the chain.

As for the rumors when I said damage control I meant "Oh are you going out with so and so?" "No.... what made you think that?" The original mess was caused by friend himself. I resolved that and Joe started in with creating rumors. He did that for about a week (and me repeatedly saying "No we are not an item") before I lost it on him (the "go to ehell" i mentioned in my original post). He left me alone for like 2 days  ::)
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle?
Post by: dawbs on February 13, 2013, 10:52:33 AM
the gossip is gossip, there's diddly and squat you can do to control that and damage control does just escalate it into more visibility--it's like the famous people who sue to keep their house photos gone--it publicizes the address more than doing nothing would have.

If he keeps up unwanted attention, you deal w/ that--because ignoring only goes so far.  Avoid...and then, personally, I would cause a scene.
Tell him once, very clearly, that you do not wish to have further unwanted attentions from him.
If he continues, get up, walk into the hallway and call campus security. 

If this person is disrupting the class without the prof handling it effectively, you escalate to the dean/head of dept/etc.
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle?
Post by: Moray on February 13, 2013, 10:55:19 AM
I guess what I don't get is why you care so much that he's going "Nikko and Friend, sitting in a tree, K-I-S-S-I-N-G!". He's not spreading rumors that you're cheating, or selling dope, or anything that could affect your life in any way.

As onyonrings pointed out, no one is paying any real attention to this but you. If someone asks, correct them, but don't make a big deal out of it, or you'll give credence to what he said.
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle?
Post by: TurtleDove on February 13, 2013, 11:02:10 AM
I guess what I don't get is why you care so much that he's going "Nikko and Friend, sitting in a tree, K-I-S-S-I-N-G!". He's not spreading rumors that you're cheating, or selling dope, or anything that could affect your life in any way.

As onyonrings pointed out, no one is paying any real attention to this but you. If someone asks, correct them, but don't make a big deal out of it, or you'll give credence to what he said.

This.  I don't understand his motivation at all.  I also don't really understand the backstory of your friend (alleged boyfriend) causing this in the first place, but really, who cares?  That is a serious question - who do you think cares about what the "bully" is saying and why do you think they care?  Chances are the answer for most people will be "they don't care" and for those that do, they know you and wouldn't believe the "bully."  I wouldn't give this any space in your head.
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle?
Post by: AnnaJ on February 13, 2013, 11:13:20 AM
As a couple of people have mentioned, the sort of behavior this guy is engaging in sounds like it goes beyond immature and moves into disability territory, which does limit some of what an instructor can do - or not, just a guess.

I'm not entirely sure how this impacts your learning, however; as long as you can ask the instructor questions in class, to clarify any points you think might have been lost when this other student interrupts, I don't see how it impacts your education.
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle?
Post by: onyonryngs on February 13, 2013, 11:36:32 AM
I'm always confused when people jump to the conclusion that a jerk must have some sort of disability.  Sometimes they're not on the spectrum, they're just jerks who think they can get away with being rude.  Period. 
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle?
Post by: Dalek on February 13, 2013, 11:45:39 AM
I've encountered people like this. In 5th grade.

I don't see him as disabled. If being a jerk makes someone disabled, then the majority of drivers during rush hour are disabled.
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle?
Post by: LeveeWoman on February 13, 2013, 11:45:54 AM
When you hear the thud of hooves, they're usually from a horse--not a zebra.
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle?
Post by: AnnaJ on February 13, 2013, 11:51:33 AM
When you hear the thud of hooves, they're usually from a horse--not a zebra.

As a community college instructor, I have to say there are a lot of zebras out there.
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle?
Post by: Moray on February 13, 2013, 11:55:53 AM
When you hear the thud of hooves, they're usually from a horse--not a zebra.

As a community college instructor, I have to say there are a lot of zebras out there.

Ok, so let's say that he's got a disability of some sort, or that he had a bad experience with alien abduction, or whatever. Does it really matter the reason he's being like this? The OP still has to decide to stop reacting to this guy, and his disruptions still have to be dealt with (or not, as is appropriate to the situation :) )
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle?
Post by: HonorH on February 13, 2013, 12:06:47 PM
Yeah, this guy sounds familiar. I've had him in every junior high class I've ever taught. I mean, really? Your instructor should be the one dealing with his interruptions in class. I thought one of the perks of being a college prof is being able to make twits go away.

Your strategy is simple, though: Ignore, ignore, ignore. This guy no longer exists in your world.
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle?
Post by: AnnaJ on February 13, 2013, 12:11:44 PM
When you hear the thud of hooves, they're usually from a horse--not a zebra.

As a community college instructor, I have to say there are a lot of zebras out there.

Ok, so let's say that he's got a disability of some sort, or that he had a bad experience with alien abduction, or whatever. Does it really matter the reason he's being like this? The OP still has to decide to stop reacting to this guy, and his disruptions still have to be dealt with (or not, as is appropriate to the situation :) )

It depends, at my college, whether or not the student is registered with our Disability Resource Center (in the U.S.).  If so, then I can contact the DRC for help with managing the student's behavior. 

If he/she is not registered, I have two choices per my dean - I can either kick them out as a disruptive student or allow them to remain in class.  Many instructors are reluctant to kick out a student for behavior that is not dangerous or threatening.  Since the instructor has already talked to the student to no avail, odds are the behavior won't be modified if the student stays in class.

The issue of behavior modification is why a disability or no disability matters - there many ways I can deal with student issues in a classroom, but honestly most are not effective on students with certain disabilities. 

To HonorH, yes that's definitely one of the perks, but most professors use it sparingly...and  I second the ignore advice.
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle?
Post by: onyonryngs on February 13, 2013, 12:12:24 PM
When you hear the thud of hooves, they're usually from a horse--not a zebra.

As a community college instructor, I have to say there are a lot of zebras out there.

If that's part of the community college experience then the instructor should be well versed on how to deal with it and quiet down the disruptive elements.
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle?
Post by: Moray on February 13, 2013, 12:14:14 PM
When you hear the thud of hooves, they're usually from a horse--not a zebra.

As a community college instructor, I have to say there are a lot of zebras out there.

Ok, so let's say that he's got a disability of some sort, or that he had a bad experience with alien abduction, or whatever. Does it really matter the reason he's being like this? The OP still has to decide to stop reacting to this guy, and his disruptions still have to be dealt with (or not, as is appropriate to the situation :) )

It depends, at my college, whether or not the student is registered with our Disability Resource Center (in the U.S.).  If so, then I can contact the DRC for help with managing the student's behavior. 

If he/she is not registered, I have two choices per my dean - I can either kick them out as a disruptive student or allow them to remain in class.  Many instructors are reluctant to kick out a student for behavior that is not dangerous or threatening.  Since the instructor has already talked to the student to no avail, odds are the behavior won't be modified if the student stays in class.

The issue of behavior modification is why a disability or no disability matters - there many ways I can deal with student issues in a classroom, but honestly most are not effective on students with certain disabilities. 

To HonorH, yes that's definitely one of the perks, but most professors use it sparingly...and  I second the ignore advice.

But that's not something that the OP will, or should be, privy to. All she can do is modify her own behavior. Speculation on whether or not this guy has some sort of disability is completely non-productive because it doesn't change what, if anything the OP does.
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle?
Post by: LeveeWoman on February 13, 2013, 12:19:24 PM
When you hear the thud of hooves, they're usually from a horse--not a zebra.

As a community college instructor, I have to say there are a lot of zebras out there.

Ok, so let's say that he's got a disability of some sort, or that he had a bad experience with alien abduction, or whatever. Does it really matter the reason he's being like this? The OP still has to decide to stop reacting to this guy, and his disruptions still have to be dealt with (or not, as is appropriate to the situation :) )

It depends, at my college, whether or not the student is registered with our Disability Resource Center (in the U.S.).  If so, then I can contact the DRC for help with managing the student's behavior. 

If he/she is not registered, I have two choices per my dean - I can either kick them out as a disruptive student or allow them to remain in class.  Many instructors are reluctant to kick out a student for behavior that is not dangerous or threatening.  Since the instructor has already talked to the student to no avail, odds are the behavior won't be modified if the student stays in class.

The issue of behavior modification is why a disability or no disability matters - there many ways I can deal with student issues in a classroom, but honestly most are not effective on students with certain disabilities. 

To HonorH, yes that's definitely one of the perks, but most professors use it sparingly...and  I second the ignore advice.

But that's not something that the OP will, or should be, privy to. All she can do is modify her own behavior. Speculation on whether or not this guy has some sort of disability is completely non-productive because it doesn't change what, if anything the OP does.

Agreed! Further speculation on this angle is not related to etiquette and could get the thread locked.
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle?
Post by: AnnaJ on February 13, 2013, 12:24:56 PM
When you hear the thud of hooves, they're usually from a horse--not a zebra.

As a community college instructor, I have to say there are a lot of zebras out there.

Ok, so let's say that he's got a disability of some sort, or that he had a bad experience with alien abduction, or whatever. Does it really matter the reason he's being like this? The OP still has to decide to stop reacting to this guy, and his disruptions still have to be dealt with (or not, as is appropriate to the situation :) )

It depends, at my college, whether or not the student is registered with our Disability Resource Center (in the U.S.).  If so, then I can contact the DRC for help with managing the student's behavior. 

If he/she is not registered, I have two choices per my dean - I can either kick them out as a disruptive student or allow them to remain in class.  Many instructors are reluctant to kick out a student for behavior that is not dangerous or threatening.  Since the instructor has already talked to the student to no avail, odds are the behavior won't be modified if the student stays in class.

The issue of behavior modification is why a disability or no disability matters - there many ways I can deal with student issues in a classroom, but honestly most are not effective on students with certain disabilities. 

To HonorH, yes that's definitely one of the perks, but most professors use it sparingly...and  I second the ignore advice.

But that's not something that the OP will, or should be, privy to. All she can do is modify her own behavior. Speculation on whether or not this guy has some sort of disability is completely non-productive because it doesn't change what, if anything the OP does.

Sorry, slow this morning, I though you were asking about whether or not his behavior mattered regarding the existence of a disability.

I absolutely agree with you - as I said above, I'm not sure the other student's behavior impacts the OP's ability to get an education.  If the instructor doesn't dis-enroll the other student, the OP can only control her own classroom experience.
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle?
Post by: MrTango on February 13, 2013, 01:10:27 PM
I'm always confused when people jump to the conclusion that a jerk must have some sort of disability.  Sometimes they're not on the spectrum, they're just jerks who think they can get away with being rude.  Period.

At the risk of sounding like a jerk, I wouldn't care if the person was disabled.  Bullying/harassment is not acceptable behavior.  Period.

If he has a disability that prevents him from being able to control his behavior in public, he should not be allowed in public without adequate supervision.
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle?
Post by: Slartibartfast on February 13, 2013, 01:19:08 PM
I'm always confused when people jump to the conclusion that a jerk must have some sort of disability.  Sometimes they're not on the spectrum, they're just jerks who think they can get away with being rude.  Period.

The thing is, though, that he IS getting away with it.  And since he hasn't been stopped before now, that ups the chances that he really does have a reason the powers that be are just going along with it.  Him having a disability may be one such reason - not that people with disabilities necessarily are disruptive (or should be), but that administration sometimes hesitates to discipline someone in a protected class because they fear repercussions and accusations of prejudice.

I don't think we can draw the conclusion that he *does* have a disability, just that he might.  And the longer he gets away with this kind of thing and the administration turns a blind eye, the more likely it is that the administration isn't the answer to how to get this guy to stop.
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle?
Post by: Yvaine on February 13, 2013, 01:26:55 PM
I'm always confused when people jump to the conclusion that a jerk must have some sort of disability.  Sometimes they're not on the spectrum, they're just jerks who think they can get away with being rude.  Period.

The thing is, though, that he IS getting away with it.  And since he hasn't been stopped before now, that ups the chances that he really does have a reason the powers that be are just going along with it.  Him having a disability may be one such reason - not that people with disabilities necessarily are disruptive (or should be), but that administration sometimes hesitates to discipline someone in a protected class because they fear repercussions and accusations of prejudice.

I don't think we can draw the conclusion that he *does* have a disability, just that he might.  And the longer he gets away with this kind of thing and the administration turns a blind eye, the more likely it is that the administration isn't the answer to how to get this guy to stop.

This is getting medical and legal and maybe political. I think maybe we should stick to what the OP can do to cope with this guy being obnoxious.
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle?
Post by: citadelle on February 13, 2013, 01:36:53 PM
At the risk of sounding like a jerk, I wouldn't care if the person was disabled.  Bullying/harassment is not acceptable behavior.  Period.

If he has a disability that prevents him from being able to control his behavior in public, he should not be allowed in public without adequate supervision.

You might be very surprised what a BIP (behavior intervention plan) will allow a student to do.
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle?
Post by: bopper on February 13, 2013, 01:38:06 PM
I would go to campus security or the counseling center and ask how to handle this.

There is somebody on your campus that can help out, and if not, call the main campus security office and ask them what to do.
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle?
Post by: Twik on February 13, 2013, 01:46:43 PM
So what if Frank says you aren't doing something that you are doing?

Well, she is probably a single young woman who is open occasionally to being asked out by young gentlemen. In which case, having it spread around that she and Otto (as an example) are an item means (1) that young men who find her attractive will not ask her out, because they think she is "taken", and (2) if she is seen out with another young man, the word will go around that she is cheating on Otto, and is not a nice person. Confusion ensues.
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle?
Post by: Roe on February 13, 2013, 01:53:57 PM
He's bothering because you care too much.  Yep, you care about what he's saying a bit too much and he likes to have that control.  Just ignore him.  It doesn't matter what he says.  Even if it's the most outlandish thing.  To respond is to give him the control he seeks.  I'd give him the cut direct.  Just pretend he doesn't exist and hopefully pretty soon, for you, he won't. 
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle?
Post by: ------ on February 13, 2013, 02:04:36 PM
I would go to campus security or the counseling center and ask how to handle this.

There is somebody on your campus that can help out, and if not, call the main campus security office and ask them what to do.


I second this.

I would also like to add that if he insists upon acting like a junior high schooler, he should be treated like one. Frankly, it's nobodies business whether the kid has a disability or not. I think it is irrelevant. I think everyone in a college class has a responsibility to behave respectfully and to create an atmosphere conducive to learning. If he's being disruptive and the instructor lets this continue, it needs to be reported up the chain until something is done about it. And if it turns out that he does have some kind of disability, then the school needs to take steps to deal with his situation and make arrangements to supply him an education without disrupting the other students. But, Nikko-Chan, that's not something you have to/should worry about. Just feel free to ignore him, and if it is impossible to do so, I urge you to escalate reporting his behavior to the proper officials. You don't have to question whether he's got a disability - it's not yours or anyone else's business - but you CAN report his behavior. And you should, if it is disruptive, harassing or dangerous to you.

If he's just being annoying and you can ignore him, then you should. Eventually, he'll get tired and leave you alone if you don't provide him the entertainment value he's looking for by seeking a rise out of you. But if he doesn't, and there's more to this (on his end), then you should report. I hope it gets better for you. You deserve a quality education.

Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle?
Post by: zoidberg on February 13, 2013, 02:55:00 PM
There are a lot of unpleasant people out there who neither have a disability, nor are they predators. They are annoying and a pain to deal with, though.
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle?
Post by: Moray on February 13, 2013, 03:03:43 PM
There are a lot of unpleasant people out there who neither have a disability, nor are they predators. They are annoying and a pain to deal with, though.

Yup. In dealing with others, it's usually best to take things at face value and focus on the things we can influence; like how we react to annoying people. Psyching yourself out or convincing yourself he's totally a predator or some sort of dangerous fiend is of negligible value. (OP, I know you're not the one who brought this up).

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, and sometimes (almost always, in fact) an annoying jerk is just an annoying jerk.
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle?
Post by: BeagleMommy on February 13, 2013, 03:23:20 PM
Nikko-chan, you are not being rude by ignoring this buffoon.  The rumors will not make a difference to anyone that matters.

As long as you ignore him you are not giving him what he wants.  That being a reaction to what he is doing.  It is, more than likely, driving him crazy.  Eventually, he'll get bored and will move on to another "nice" person.
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle?
Post by: bonyk on February 13, 2013, 04:26:40 PM
I would stand up to him directly about his in class behavior.  Once you confront him on that, I bet others in your class back you up.  After that, he'll avoid you.

Try the 'When you. . . I feel . . .  I want' approach.  Next time he yells out a ridiculous comment, just calmly look at him and say, "When you interrupt Professor, I feel upset that my learning has been disturbed.  I want you to stop."
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle?
Post by: JoyinVirginia on February 13, 2013, 11:22:18 PM
One other suggestion, not ehell approved, but effective.  If you cannot ignore obnoxious guys antics, say you are a real donkey (except use other term). Don't talk to me ever again. 
Then don't acknowledge him ever.
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle?
Post by: Nikko-chan on February 14, 2013, 03:42:10 AM
I have decided not to give the teacher another chance to get this issue resolved, after what Joe pulled in class today. Or rather, yesterday. Teacher pulled up an image from an artist, and told us to copy it, to get used to drawing. It was actually reverse drawing... shade in the paper lightly and erase what was white on the drawing, shade in the rest. Well the drawing had crosshatching. I raised my hand and asked the Professor "Do we need to do crosshatching as well?"

Joe butted it with his own question, got it answered, I tried to ask my question again, Joe butted in again, and then the professor yelled at him. Joe got all butthurt and sulked for awhile. For about ten minutes folks, we had peace and quiet.

 But after I got done with my classes I went to the office of... well he's not our Dean but he's the guy you go to with this sort of stuff, and I told him everything. We have school off Monday, and he's not going to be in Wed. so he told me to remind him the Wed. after next and he would get it resolved. I am so happy right now!
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle? TINY Update 49
Post by: chibichan on February 14, 2013, 04:16:14 AM
Bravo Nikko-chan !

You do.not. have to put up with this . The teacher is failing you and the rest of the class by not stopping this jerk dead in his tracks after the first incident .

Jerk obviously feels no fear about getting kicked out of class for good . Do not hesitate to go to anyone and everyone if he escalates ...and it sounds like he probably will .

It is not rude to ignore him , nor is it rude to tell him in no uncertain terms to go away and leave you alone .
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle? TINY Update 49
Post by: AnnaJ on February 14, 2013, 09:56:18 AM
Bravo Nikko-chan !

You do.not. have to put up with this . The teacher is failing you and the rest of the class by not stopping this jerk dead in his tracks after the first incident .

Jerk obviously feels no fear about getting kicked out of class for good . Do not hesitate to go to anyone and everyone if he escalates ...and it sounds like he probably will .

It is not rude to ignore him , nor is it rude to tell him in no uncertain terms to go away and leave you alone .

I'm wondering what you think the instructor should be doing.  According to the original post the instructor didn't give in when the other student tried to negotiate a group project, and the OP said in the update that the instructor chastised the other student when he interrupted the OP's questions. 

From what the OP has posted it sounds as though the instructor is responding but the student is still creating problems - and really, there is a limit to what the instructor can do.  Unlike a public school the presumption is that students are adults and there isn't a discipline structure in place - college attendance isn't required, in the U.S. there are laws in place that forbid the school from contacting parents (as there should be) - because the presumption is that students are capable of behaving correctly.

So it comes down to kicking the student out of class, which is not always that simple.
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle? TINY Update 49
Post by: Nikko-chan on February 14, 2013, 10:04:54 AM
Bravo Nikko-chan !

You do.not. have to put up with this . The teacher is failing you and the rest of the class by not stopping this jerk dead in his tracks after the first incident .

Jerk obviously feels no fear about getting kicked out of class for good . Do not hesitate to go to anyone and everyone if he escalates ...and it sounds like he probably will .

It is not rude to ignore him , nor is it rude to tell him in no uncertain terms to go away and leave you alone .

I'm wondering what you think the instructor should be doing.  According to the original post the instructor didn't give in when the other student tried to negotiate a group project, and the OP said in the update that the instructor chastised the other student when he interrupted the OP's questions. 

From what the OP has posted it sounds as though the instructor is responding but the student is still creating problems - and really, there is a limit to what the instructor can do.  Unlike a public school the presumption is that students are adults and there isn't a discipline structure in place - college attendance isn't required, in the U.S. there are laws in place that forbid the school from contacting parents (as there should be) - because the presumption is that students are capable of behaving correctly.

So it comes down to kicking the student out of class, which is not always that simple.

Actually, most colleges have a system in place for disruptive students. Ours is the following:

1. Student will be taken aside and warned that their behavior is disruptive.

2. Repeated infractions will be brought to the attention of the dean (this is from before they branched out and they left it in there i guess, considering our little offshoot of maincampus doesn't have a dean) and it will be investigated. Refusal to cooperate and or confrontational behavior may result in security being called who will then remove student from class.

3. Once dean is notified or a student is removed, a student will be advised of his or her due process rights. The dean and other personnell will decide further procedures.

Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle? TINY Update 49
Post by: Hillia on February 14, 2013, 10:39:13 AM
Here's what I would expect:  after Joe threatened to disrupt the class if hd didn't get his way, I would expect the teacher to take him aside and say, "here are the rules for my class.  You do not interrupt me.  You do not interrupt other students.  You do not disrupt my class time.  If you do, I will ask you to leave the room.  You may return when you can behave in an appropriate manner".  Yelling at Joe after the fact, but continuing to respond when he interrupts, is not helping the situation.  Nine students are being deprived of a class that they paid for because of one jerk.  He is essentially stealing at least a part of their tuition.o
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle? TINY Update 49
Post by: Sharnita on February 14, 2013, 11:04:22 AM
Iwould expect that if the student will not let the prof conduct the class then security would be called to remove the student. 
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle? TINY Update 49
Post by: camlan on February 14, 2013, 11:11:02 AM
It seems that the professor tried, over a period of days, to control the "bully" student.

But not all students will listen. As a teaching assistant, I had to deal with a few of these. Sometimes, the more you try to get them to shut up, the more they disrupt the class.

When the professor's usual tactics didn't work, he should have sough assistance--from his department head, or the Dean, or whatever office on campus would deal with this type of thing.
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle? TINY Update 49
Post by: MrTango on February 14, 2013, 11:18:53 AM
Iwould expect that if the student will not let the prof conduct the class then security would be called to remove the student.

Yes, that's how my college would have handled it.  Also, if a student had to be removed from class by the campus police, it nearly always ended up with the student being booked in the county jail for disorderly conduct.
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle? TINY Update 49
Post by: Sharnita on February 14, 2013, 11:27:10 AM
Iwould expect that if the student will not let the prof conduct the class then security would be called to remove the student.

Yes, that's how my college would have handled it.  Also, if a student had to be removed from class by the campus police, it nearly always ended up with the student being booked in the county jail for disorderly conduct.

Not to mention losing the tuition for that class.
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle? TINY Update 49
Post by: onyonryngs on February 14, 2013, 12:13:23 PM
If there was a system in place, why was etiquette advice needed?  Why not just follow through with the documented procedure?
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle? TINY Update 49
Post by: Sharnita on February 14, 2013, 12:16:28 PM
If there was a system in place, why was etiquette advice needed?  Why not just follow through with the documented procedure?

The OP isn't the prof.
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle? TINY Update 49
Post by: LeveeWoman on February 14, 2013, 12:18:27 PM
If there was a system in place, why was etiquette advice needed?  Why not just follow through with the documented procedure?

The OP isn't the prof.

Right. And, not everything in the original post can be taken care of by official action.
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle? TINY Update 49
Post by: Softly Spoken on February 15, 2013, 02:03:08 AM
Given the OPs update, I will cop to just wanting to know that this is resolved now.

However, before reading post #49, I was not agreeing with the suggestions to "just ignore." I really have a pet peeve when it comes to this advice. The issue I have is mainly that it puts all the onus on the person being bothered. It is also quite often taken by the obnoxious person as "challenge accepted": they want a response, you don't give them what they want, they escalate, you seethe and grow an ulcer, they continue on their merry destructive way. It would be one thing if you were ignoring because you truly were not bothered and could brush them off...but if they bother you and you suffer in silence, you are also adopting a "grade school" attitude - that of putting your fingers in your ears and saying "lalalalala I can't hear you!" Of course you hear them, of course it bothers you, and they can see it bothers you - they can see the vein throbbing in your head and they can't wait to push your final button and make you explode. >:(

Sorry, rant over.  ::) Now on to some more practical advice:

Whether it's grade school, high school or college you should not have to tolerate obnoxious behavior. That's what rules are for. That's why policies are written. That's why every institution has a code of conduct. Don't waste time wandering in the gray area of social etiquette - go look up the rules and see if the behavior is technically allowed! If it isn't allowed, there are consequences for the behavior that it is the school's responsibility to enforce.

Sometimes when we ask ourselves "how do I deal with this?", the best answer is "let someone else deal with it."

Then you don't have to worry about being "rude."
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle? TINY Update 49
Post by: Nikko-chan on February 27, 2013, 07:48:55 PM
Okay so apparently Professor put his foot down? I got a call earlier today from a friend of mine who was in that class (i wasn't there for the past few days), and he says that Joe picked up a friend of ours, Jamie, and when she yelled "HEY PUT ME DOWN!" The professor let him have it. So... it took having Joe giving a person unwanted physical contact in order for Professor to get angry enough to make him stop? That's... that's a bit scary for me.
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle? TINY Update 49, 62
Post by: PastryGoddess on February 27, 2013, 08:02:57 PM
ummmm yay...go professor...woo ::)
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle? TINY Update 49, 62
Post by: Nikko-chan on February 27, 2013, 08:11:32 PM
ummmm yay...go professor...woo ::)

That was my exact reaction.
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle? TINY Update 49
Post by: artk2002 on February 27, 2013, 08:12:36 PM
Okay so apparently Professor put his foot down? I got a call earlier today from a friend of mine who was in that class (i wasn't there for the past few days), and he says that Joe picked up a friend of ours, Jamie, and when she yelled "HEY PUT ME DOWN!" The professor let him have it. So... it took having Joe giving a person unwanted physical contact in order for Professor to get angry enough to make him stop? That's... that's a bit scary for me.

From one of your earlier posts, the professor already told him to knock it off. Why do you think this will do any good? Joe needs to be out of that class and out of school. Please take this to your site dean, the dean at the man campus and/or any student ombudsman or other support. This is not good.

BTW, this is for Joe's protection as well. Had I been Jamie, Joe might be on his way to the hospital. I don't take kindly to being grabbed and can have an immediate physical reaction.
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle? TINY Update 49
Post by: camlan on February 27, 2013, 08:26:09 PM
Okay so apparently Professor put his foot down? I got a call earlier today from a friend of mine who was in that class (i wasn't there for the past few days), and he says that Joe picked up a friend of ours, Jamie, and when she yelled "HEY PUT ME DOWN!" The professor let him have it. So... it took having Joe giving a person unwanted physical contact in order for Professor to get angry enough to make him stop? That's... that's a bit scary for me.

The flip side of this is that once Joe stopped just being an annoyance in class and grabbed a girl, the professor stepped up and made him stop. The professor could have just figured it was two kids fooling around and done nothing. It can be difficult to tell what's teasing and what's not when you are the instructor and only seeing part of what's going on. And yes, I have seen young men pick up young women in a friendly or flirty way, so just the physical contact in a classroom or hallway would not be an immediate signal to me that there was something wrong. The woman's command of "Put me down!" would be the signal for me.

Don't forget, the professor is not seeing/hearing all the exchanges between Joe and you and other students outside of class. You have some reasons for disliking Joe that the professor doesn't know about. All the professor knows is that Joe is a nuisance in class and won't shut up.

I am not excusing Joe's behavior at all. And I do think the professor needs to take Joe's behavior further up the chain of command and get something done about him. But there are limits as to what instructors in college can do. The students are adults and while you can ask someone to behave or tell them to behave, there aren't a lot of options if the student choose not to behave. And if the administration of the institution is more focused on getting bodies in the seats and won't back the instructors up, well, there's not much the instructors can do.

At one university I attended, the library had some small, private "group study" rooms. The security guards at the library made regular rounds of the entire building and had to open all the group study room doors and look inside the rooms several times a day. The rooms were apparently popular places for students to, ahem, play "scrabble." The guards were not allowed to tell the couples to stop playing and take it elsewhere. They were required to ask any women involved if they were okay, and that was all they could do. The university administration had decided that the students were consenting adults and could not be made to stop legal behavior anywhere on university grounds, even after other students complained about this. Just an example of how there might be rules that the professor has to follow in dealing with Joe.
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle? TINY Update 49
Post by: cicero on February 28, 2013, 01:12:58 AM
Okay so apparently Professor put his foot down? I got a call earlier today from a friend of mine who was in that class (i wasn't there for the past few days), and he says that Joe picked up a friend of ours, Jamie, and when she yelled "HEY PUT ME DOWN!" The professor let him have it. So... it took having Joe giving a person unwanted physical contact in order for Professor to get angry enough to make him stop? That's... that's a bit scary for me.
maybe the prof didn't know how to deal with the annoying behavior, but could deal with what appeared to be a physical attack. annoying behavior doesnt' always have clear boundary lines (is it just annoying? is he just being a baby? is that bullying?) but the physical does. or usually does. certainly in the case of a student picking up another student.

I remember in college we had 2 annoying guys in our year (we had many but not all of the same classes). annoying to the point where nobody was willing to work with them but not "kick out of class" worthy...

Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle? TINY Update 49
Post by: Katana_Geldar on February 28, 2013, 01:18:09 AM
Okay so apparently Professor put his foot down? I got a call earlier today from a friend of mine who was in that class (i wasn't there for the past few days), and he says that Joe picked up a friend of ours, Jamie, and when she yelled "HEY PUT ME DOWN!" The professor let him have it. So... it took having Joe giving a person unwanted physical contact in order for Professor to get angry enough to make him stop? That's... that's a bit scary for me.
maybe the prof didn't know how to deal with the annoying behavior, but could deal with what appeared to be a physical attack. annoying behavior doesnt' always have clear boundary lines (is it just annoying? is he just being a baby? is that bullying?) but the physical does. or usually does. certainly in the case of a student picking up another student.

I remember in college we had 2 annoying guys in our year (we had many but not all of the same classes). annoying to the point where nobody was willing to work with them but not "kick out of class" worthy...

That's sort of expected. Academics don't get a lot of teacher training compared to professional teachers. Best lecturer I had was a former high school teacher.
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle? TINY Update 49
Post by: figee on February 28, 2013, 02:37:22 AM
Okay so apparently Professor put his foot down? I got a call earlier today from a friend of mine who was in that class (i wasn't there for the past few days), and he says that Joe picked up a friend of ours, Jamie, and when she yelled "HEY PUT ME DOWN!" The professor let him have it. So... it took having Joe giving a person unwanted physical contact in order for Professor to get angry enough to make him stop? That's... that's a bit scary for me.
maybe the prof didn't know how to deal with the annoying behavior, but could deal with what appeared to be a physical attack. annoying behavior doesnt' always have clear boundary lines (is it just annoying? is he just being a baby? is that bullying?) but the physical does. or usually does. certainly in the case of a student picking up another student.

I remember in college we had 2 annoying guys in our year (we had many but not all of the same classes). annoying to the point where nobody was willing to work with them but not "kick out of class" worthy...

That's sort of expected. Academics don't get a lot of teacher training compared to professional teachers. Best lecturer I had was a former high school teacher.

I'm a lecturer. Power is limited. I can try to work with obnoxious students, I can call them out, I can cut them off, I can ask them to leave or I can leave myself. Unless they are clearly a threat to other students or myself, I can't report them to security and I can't report them to anyone. I have very few issues in my classes because I am a strict, confident female dog in front of them. But obnoxious students are not easy to manage and I'm not sure what else I would have done in the professors place.
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle? TINY Update 49, 62
Post by: oogyda on February 28, 2013, 07:55:23 AM
The professor may be limited in what he can do.  However, I think Jamie could lodge a formal complaint about the assault.
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle? TINY Update 49, 62
Post by: Nikko-chan on March 09, 2013, 07:20:44 PM
Well, I guess a little clarification is needed. The friend who called me, Thomas, didn't know the words to describe what happened (English isn't his first language). When he said picking up, he meant "flirting with" so basically Joe tried to ask Jamie out.  ::) Yeah, that went over real well. Jamie pretty much told him she wasn't interested.

When I returned to school on monday, it was to find we were working with ink. Yikes! (art intimidation factor: level ten) It wasn't so bad, and we merely had to copy an ink painting. All fine and dandy... til the professor said these words "Oh, and we will be doing an Art Critique on Wednesday, so please pick five art pieces to use in the critique."

I thought, alright, I am totally going to use this piece. It actually looks like the original in work from the artist... mostly! Then Joe (who had been faking that he was getting ink on people the whole entire class period.. he did it to Jamie, "oops i got ink on your jacket!" her response was that he was buying her a new one if that was the case.)

He walked past me with brush in hand, and ran it across my painting! I was standing in front of my desk (I had dropped my art pencils and had just finished gathering them up. Ehellions, I am afraid I did a bad thing in that moment. I shoved him away from my painting, fearing he had grey water on his brush. Lucky me the brush was dry.

Short of pushing him away from my artwork I didn't know what else to do.  :-[

And another fun little fact: I was the only person who he ran his brush across their painting. Everyone else it was clothing. The ink is water soluble so I am pretty sure if he had placed the brush on my clothes I wouldn't have shoved him away. It would have been 'Meh water soluble ink. Whatever.' The fact it was my painting made my 'oh crap no!' instinct kick in.

If you've read through this you get a cookie... and a bottle of your favorite wine.
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle? TINY Update 49
Post by: Calypso on March 09, 2013, 08:42:29 PM
[
At one university I attended, the library had some small, private "group study" rooms. The security guards at the library made regular rounds of the entire building and had to open all the group study room doors and look inside the rooms several times a day. The rooms were apparently popular places for students to, ahem, play "scrabble." The guards were not allowed to tell the couples to stop playing and take it elsewhere. They were required to ask any women involved if they were okay, and that was all they could do. The university administration had decided that the students were consenting adults and could not be made to stop legal behavior anywhere on university grounds, even after other students complained about this. Just an example of how there might be rules that the professor has to follow in dealing with Joe.

What. The. Hades.

Since when is it legal to engage in scrabble in a public place? I'm not saying it's the end of the world and admit to, at that age, engaging in activities once or twice in improper places....at night. When no one was around (and forget that these days, with the proliferation of security cameras). And I would've been appalled to be caught, not defensive about my rights! What on earth is the administration thinking-----can consenting adults copulate with impunity on the quad? In the bookstore? In the dining hall? By the logic that was being used, why not?

As for Joe....Nikko, forgive me that I can't remember, but are you not in the U.S.? 'Coz with liability laws being what they are (and I don't want to get into threadlock territory, so sorry for mentioning the legal system) I can't fathom that a public institution in the US would permit Joe to create the student equivalent of a "hostile work environment."  In another culture, I could maybe see it.
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle? TINY Update 49, 62, 71
Post by: Nikko-chan on March 09, 2013, 08:45:31 PM
CRUD MONKEYS! i forgot about that post Calypso. Yeah, it actually made me glad we don't have a library at our school. And yes, I am in the U.S. A friend of mine did make a good point, and I am going to start documenting everything...
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle? TINY Update 49, 62, 71
Post by: Calypso on March 09, 2013, 08:56:28 PM
Well, I'm absolutely furious that you're paying for an education and this useless git is allowed to disrupt your classroom experience.

Also, I'm in awe that you're learning how to create art. How wonderful!
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle? TINY Update 49, 62, 71
Post by: johelenc1 on March 09, 2013, 08:58:28 PM
I'm really confused.  Did Joe get thrown out of class or not?  What happened to the dean-person you talked to who said he would look into it?  I'm lost.

On the other side of the coin...honestly, I simply wouldn't tolerate this any more.  You can't control Joe, but you can control what you do with your time and education. 

I was once in a recitation class (small group class with TA attached to a very large lecture type class).  Within one class period I figured out two things.  One: the TA (graduate teaching assistant) had no idea what was going on (I think it just wasn't her area of expertise and also perhaps she was assigned the class at the last minute) and two: there were some VERY annoying other students in the class who were constantly whispering and chatting and being generally disrespectful.  I have pretty much zero tolerance for that kind of behavior.  This was also a class in my major (Religious Studies) and I wanted to learn a lot.  I also knew my own personality and tolerance for obnoxious people and knew being in that class would raise my stress levels to unhealthy levels.

I went to the TA immediately after class and basically told her that the students talking in class was going to drive me nuts and I was serious about learning, and I was going to try to switch to a different class.  (I decided it was unnecessary to tell her I was pretty sure she didn't have a clue about the subject matter).  She understood completely and said it was fine.  I got out of there and into a different group with an absolutely fantastic TA.  And, I learned so much.

After the first few classes of Joe disrupting it and the professor doing nothing, I would have been out of there.  I would have switched classes or just dropped it altogether.  But, I would have made sure the professor, the dean, the guidance counselor, the president of the college, and whoever else knew exactly why.  I strongly worded letter that I felt forced out of a much wanted class because the professor refused to handle the situation.

I'm pretty perplexed that the professor allows this.  Any one acting like that in any college class I have ever taken would have absolutely been thrown out of class.
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle? TINY Update 49, 62, 71
Post by: CharlieBraun on March 09, 2013, 09:00:16 PM
Niko, at this point, you need to take it up with campus police.  What you have described is assault.
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle? TINY Update 49, 62, 71
Post by: Nikko-chan on March 09, 2013, 09:32:56 PM
No, Joe is still in class and being annoying. Unfortunately I can't switch to another class because this is a really small school. I mean like, super small. I have talked to the teacher about this many many times before, but either a) his hands are tied, and b) he can't really control Joe. I mean he wanders around the classroom and what not so yeah >.< It's like I am back in daycare or something. I am at the point where I am ready to use my "teacher in training" voice on him.

CharlieBraun, he didn't even touch me. If the other student want to do something about what they did to them, they can. Plus, we don't have police. We have "security" which... really they don't do much.
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle? TINY Update 49, 62, 71
Post by: CluelessBride on March 09, 2013, 09:43:08 PM
Honestly? You are paying for an education (I assume, or someone else is paying for you). You are therefore entitled to receive that education. Oftentimes university administrations just don't want to deal with things that are a pain to deal with. Unfortunately that means sometimes to get what you are entitled to, you have to be the squeaky wheel. Start asking for a refund of the fees you paid for the class. Explain how you complained. Explain how Joe is unfairly disrupting your learning. Threaten to go to the press and/or college review sites and/or social media about how the school allows disruptive and border line abusive behavior in class and that the instructors appear to be unable to do anything about it.

Then follow through if they still refuse to deal with the situation. Don't lie. Don't embellish. But be honest about your experience (documentation obviously helps). I know that I would want to know if the administration condoned disruptive students, and it would definitely negatively affect my desire to attend that college/university. And I feel like people looking to study at a particular institution have a right to know what kind of class room environment to expect.
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle? TINY Update 49, 62, 71
Post by: TomatoBunny on March 09, 2013, 10:44:43 PM
I know very little about art and nothing about inking specifically, but really, running a brush over a painting sounds like it could have the potential to smear/effect the work in many mediums. Even if the brush was dry, if your painting was not, couldn't it still smear a streak of your colors across the work? It seems like he could have potentially ruined your work, because unless ink is insta-dry, how did he know his brush swipe would be a joke and not malicious ruining?

I would think trying(?) to ruin your artwork would be a step up from the verbal 'annoyances' he's done so far.
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle? TINY Update 49, 62, 71
Post by: Nikko-chan on March 09, 2013, 10:52:10 PM
I know very little about art and nothing about inking specifically, but really, running a brush over a painting sounds like it could have the potential to smear/effect the work in many mediums. Even if the brush was dry, if your painting was not, couldn't it still smear a streak of your colors across the work? It seems like he could have potentially ruined your work, because unless ink is insta-dry, how did he know his brush swipe would be a joke and not malicious ruining?

I would think trying(?) to ruin your artwork would be a step up from the verbal 'annoyances' he's done so far.

He actually ran his brush along the part where no ink was, thank heavens. I shoved him away because I thought his brush was wet, and so would have that grey water that happens when black paint or ink is still in the brush.
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle? TINY Update 49, 62
Post by: Nebraska Jones on March 09, 2013, 11:59:18 PM
I'm confused.  This was said earlier:
"Okay so apparently Professor put his foot down? I got a call earlier today from a friend of mine who was in that class (i wasn't there for the past few days), and he says that Joe picked up a friend of ours, Jamie, and when she yelled "HEY PUT ME DOWN!" The professor let him have it. So... it took having Joe giving a person unwanted physical contact in order for Professor to get angry enough to make him stop? That's... that's a bit scary for me."

and then the following:

Well, I guess a little clarification is needed. The friend who called me, Thomas, didn't know the words to describe what happened (English isn't his first language). When he said picking up, he meant "flirting with" so basically Joe tried to ask Jamie out.  ::) Yeah, that went over real well. Jamie pretty much told him she wasn't interested.

So did the professor yell at him for trying to ask her out?  Surely Jamie didn't yell, correct?  So the professor was never angry with him even though that's what was relayed to you?
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle? TINY Update 49, 62, 71
Post by: guihong on March 10, 2013, 02:12:19 PM
My thought is to quietly and discreetly film Joe in action with your phone.  That's documentation. 
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle? TINY Update 49, 62, 71
Post by: CharlieBraun on March 10, 2013, 02:54:48 PM
CharlieBraun, he didn't even touch me. If the other student want to do something about what they did to them, they can. Plus, we don't have police. We have "security" which... really they don't do much.

Assault does not always require physical contact.

Nikko, you started this thread nearly a month ago.  A month worth of wasted class time and fractured education.  At the very least, what Joe is doing is stealing from you - stealing your time and education.

Whether or not you believe security can "do" something or not, please don't throw up your hands and not contact them simply because you are assuming that they can do nothing.  They might be able to do something that you are not even aware of.

It is imperative that you raise your voice and report this to every possible venue - dean of department, dean of student affairs, security, your professor's boss, campus ombudsman, president of the college, any member of the board of governors.  Include in that list the financial or bursar's office.  Go to them and ask what financial reimbursement or tuition relief you can expect for having your classroom time stolen.

He's a bully and a thief, and even if you don't believe it, I do: he has committed a form of assault.
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle? TINY Update 49, 62
Post by: Nikko-chan on March 10, 2013, 04:03:37 PM
I'm confused.  This was said earlier:
"Okay so apparently Professor put his foot down? I got a call earlier today from a friend of mine who was in that class (i wasn't there for the past few days), and he says that Joe picked up a friend of ours, Jamie, and when she yelled "HEY PUT ME DOWN!" The professor let him have it. So... it took having Joe giving a person unwanted physical contact in order for Professor to get angry enough to make him stop? That's... that's a bit scary for me."

and then the following:

Well, I guess a little clarification is needed. The friend who called me, Thomas, didn't know the words to describe what happened (English isn't his first language). When he said picking up, he meant "flirting with" so basically Joe tried to ask Jamie out.  ::) Yeah, that went over real well. Jamie pretty much told him she wasn't interested.

So did the professor yell at him for trying to ask her out?  Surely Jamie didn't yell, correct?  So the professor was never angry with him even though that's what was relayed to you?

I actually don't know. All I know from Jamie is that he tried to ask her out. What I got from Thomas was somewhat fractured information, as, like I said English isn't his first language. Plus he has an accent that makes him really hard to understand over the phone, so the misinformation was partially my fault, because I couldn't understand some of what he was saying over the phone.


Guihong if I could film him with my phone I would, but alas, no camera on it.

CharlieBraun you have a great idea with contacting financial aid and all of that... I'll look into that when I go back next week (on spring break).
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle? TINY Update 49, 62, 71
Post by: oogyda on March 11, 2013, 01:44:42 PM
Honestly, I feel your frustration.  I'm amazed that the instructor has let this go on so long.  However, I caution the OP to tread very lightly now as she is the one who has physically assaulted someone.  Even if running a dry brush over a person's clothing qualifies as assault, physically shoving someone is far worse.  I know it was knee-jerk reaction, but it was inapprpriate.
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle? TINY Update 49, 62, 71
Post by: Nikko-chan on April 09, 2013, 10:46:54 PM
It's been awhile since I updated this thread and I thought everyone would like to know what happened.

One week I went to school, and talked to the guy who is like, the dean of our tiny campus, or rather the leader. And I told him about Joe. Again. He said to talk to my teacher about it. I went O.O. "Oh-kay."

And after that day, I did not go back to school in any capacity. I have had it. Four years I have been in that school. For an associates. Four years of screw ups and fights in the hallway (that happened like twice) and this thing with Joe is the straw that broke the camel's back.

It is seriously better for my mental and emotional health if at this point in time I do not go to school. At least not that school. Seriously, even thinking about going to school makes me want to cry. I literally get tears in my eyes.

Thank you everyone for your advice on how to handle the situation. It was helpful.
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle? TINY Update 49, 62, 71, Final Update 86
Post by: Katana_Geldar on April 09, 2013, 11:03:07 PM
Have you written them a letter explaining your reason for withdrawing? If you were at my uni while I was a student rep, your letter would have been tables at the next board meeting.

You should not have had to put up with that.
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle? TINY Update 49, 62, 71, Final Update 86
Post by: *inviteseller on April 09, 2013, 11:06:03 PM
You let Joe win.  I would talk to someone in their student affairs department...I know you have said it is a small school (is this type of a corporate run school?) but to just walk away seems to be a strange statement.  I realize your stressed, but to throw away your education and to say there is no one seems so extreme.  Please re think just stopping your education over 1 person!
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle? TINY Update 49, 62, 71, Final Update 86
Post by: Nikko-chan on April 09, 2013, 11:07:47 PM
Have you written them a letter explaining your reason for withdrawing? If you were at my uni while I was a student rep, your letter would have been tables at the next board meeting.

You should not have had to put up with that.

I didn't formally withdraw.... I've just stopped going. It was more like "This is getting to be too much, I have to stop going now" and I just stopped going to school. They are actually so disorganized they probably wouldn't have gotten the letter anyway.
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle? TINY Update 49, 62, 71, Final Update 86
Post by: WillyNilly on April 09, 2013, 11:09:40 PM
I'm sorry it came to that. But you know what? You need to look out for you right now. Clearly school wasn't a path that was working for you, now. You can always go back - it will always be there. But for now, take care of your health, your confidence and your happiness. Its harder to make it without a formal education, but by no means is it impossible.
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle? TINY Update 49, 62, 71, Final Update 86
Post by: PastryGoddess on April 10, 2013, 12:07:59 AM
You said this school was a small satellite of a larger school.  The campus you are attending may not want to do anything, but I'm sure the main campus would like to know what's going on.
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle? TINY Update 49, 62, 71, Final Update 86
Post by: artk2002 on April 10, 2013, 12:23:35 AM
I'm sorry that it came to this. Please, though, do a formal withdrawal and tell them why.
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle? TINY Update 49, 62, 71, Final Update 86
Post by: guihong on April 10, 2013, 06:37:16 AM
You said this school was a small satellite of a larger school.  The campus you are attending may not want to do anything, but I'm sure the main campus would like to know what's going on.

And so would the press in your city.
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle? TINY Update 49, 62, 71, Final Update 86
Post by: Knitterly on April 10, 2013, 08:00:39 AM
You said this school was a small satellite of a larger school.  The campus you are attending may not want to do anything, but I'm sure the main campus would like to know what's going on.

And so would the press in your city.

I agree with this.

I think you should formally withdraw.  A letter may get lost by the small campus, but not likely by the big campus.  And definitely write to your local press about it.  I'm sure they'd love to get their hands on this story.
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle? TINY Update 49, 62, 71, Final Update 86
Post by: dawbs on April 10, 2013, 08:21:30 AM
I am going to echo others in saying that you should find another way to address this.

First and foremost, formally dropping/withdrawing is th best way of making sure that you have the option of returning in the future (and it helps financial aid and all that jazz).
It's also the best way of making it clear that your complaint not being heard is a cause/effect.

This is where, at my employer, academic appeals (for refunds, etc) start. 

You spoke to the dean of the tiny campus...he was dismissive.
Time to speak to the dean of students or someone else w/ authority.
(and, regardless, use this thread, create a document that lists dates and times of incidents and details the incidents in a detached fashion--you may need it in the future))
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle? TINY Update 49, 62, 71, Final Update 86
Post by: fountainsoflettuce on April 10, 2013, 08:29:14 AM
You need to put on big girl underware and speak to the Dean of Students at the main campus (and follow up with a written letter of complaint) and take the necessary steps to formally withdraw.  Otherwise, on your academic record, you'll flunk.  If you've been in school for 4 years and  don't have an associates degree, plus the F's you'll receive this semester, you will have a very hard time enrolling in a different school.  Not to mention, whether you withdraw or flunk, you will still be required to pay your student loans (assuming you have them).  Don't make the situation worse by your own voluntary inaction.
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle? TINY Update 49, 62, 71, Final Update 86
Post by: CharlieBraun on April 10, 2013, 10:18:02 AM
You need to put on big girl underware and speak to the Dean of Students at the main campus (and follow up with a written letter of complaint) and take the necessary steps to formally withdraw.  Otherwise, on your academic record, you'll flunk.  If you've been in school for 4 years and  don't have an associates degree, plus the F's you'll receive this semester, you will have a very hard time enrolling in a different school.  Not to mention, whether you withdraw or flunk, you will still be required to pay your student loans (assuming you have them).  Don't make the situation worse by your own voluntary inaction.

ITA.  This is outstanding advice, and I sincerely hope that you take it.  This is your future that has been put at stake, by bullies.  I put the flaccid dean of students right in there as well.
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle? TINY Update 49, 62, 71, Final Update 86
Post by: TurtleDove on April 10, 2013, 10:27:24 AM
It's been a while since I read this thread but my recollection is that I didn't see bullying.  I saw a guy being somewhat of a jerk, but people do that.  OP, I think you have gotten some good advice - you need to actually withdraw from classes or you could really be digging yourself a hole. 
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle? TINY Update 49, 62, 71, Final Update 86
Post by: BarensMom on April 10, 2013, 10:32:57 AM
Turtledove, he lifted a female student against her will in front of other students.  He also ran a brush over the OP's project, which could have caused damage and affected her grade.
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle? TINY Update 49, 62, 71, Final Update 86
Post by: WillyNilly on April 10, 2013, 10:37:04 AM
OP you don't "need to" formally withdraw. Do not let anyone here push you around if its upsetting to you. You should withdraw formally, but you don't "need to" - no one is going to fine you or hunt you down or anything if you just drop out. Hundreds of millions of people drop out of college all the time and life goes on.

When you are ready to go back, which might be next year, 10 years from now, or maybe never, may I suggest online classes (at an accredited college). They are more work, but your interactions with other students is moderated and most of your interactions are between you and your instructor directly. They are also IME more affordable.
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle? TINY Update 49, 62, 71, Final Update 86
Post by: Judah on April 10, 2013, 10:56:27 AM
Turtledove, he lifted a female student against her will in front of other students.  He also ran a brush over the OP's project, which could have caused damage and affected her grade.

He didn't lift the student up bodily, he tried to "pick her up". In other words, he flirted with her. 

Well, I guess a little clarification is needed. The friend who called me, Thomas, didn't know the words to describe what happened (English isn't his first language). When he said picking up, he meant "flirting with" so basically Joe tried to ask Jamie out. ::) Yeah, that went over real well. Jamie pretty much told him she wasn't interested.

I haven't seen any bullying described, only, as Turtledove said, a guy acting like a jerk.
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle? TINY Update 49, 62, 71, Final Update 86
Post by: jellyjar on April 10, 2013, 11:24:29 AM
My dh made the mistake of just dropping out of community college without formally withdrawing.  He didn't realize that not doing the paperwork would mean automatic failure in his courses.  Not only did it really hurt his GPA when he went back years later, but he was asked about it on an interview.  He was a straight A student when he returned and still his grades took a hit from those F's.  You don't have to fight the battle if you don't want to, but it will have future consequences is you ever need to use your credits or plan to take other courses in your lifetime. It is not hard to withdraw so I wouldn't let your emotions now ruin your education later.
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle? TINY Update 49, 62, 71, Final Update 86
Post by: oogyda on April 10, 2013, 02:31:05 PM
I'm afraid I don't understand why you are dropping out instead of dropping only this class.  It seems that you should be close to finishing your degree and it seems extremely self-defeating to just stop going. 

I, along with everyone else, do offer you sympathy and a certain amount of understanding, but that seems like an extreme reaction to one boy in one class. 

Remember, people who succeed *in spite of* adverse situations are often highly respected. 
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle? TINY Update 49, 62, 71, Final Update 86
Post by: Moray on April 10, 2013, 02:33:13 PM
I'm afraid I don't understand why you are dropping out instead of dropping only this class.  It seems that you should be close to finishing your degree and it seems extremely self-defeating to just stop going. 

I, along with everyone else, do offer you sympathy and a certain amount of understanding, but that seems like an extreme reaction to one boy in one class. 

Remember, people who succeed *in spite of* adverse situations are often highly respected.

That's a good point. Leaving school entirely instead of withdrawing from one class seems a little like cutting off one's nose to spite one's face.
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle? TINY Update 49, 62, 71, Final Update 86
Post by: BeagleMommy on April 10, 2013, 02:47:57 PM
Nikko:

I think you should do whatever feels like the right decision for you.  I'd like to recommend to you what we recommend at my university.

Formally withdrawing from the class is a good idea because it won't affect your grades.  If you are comfortable, write (or email) the dean of students at the main campus of the university.  Explain why you find it necessary to withdraw using clear, concise language.  Leave emotion out of it.

Good luck.
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle? TINY Update 49, 62, 71, Final Update 86
Post by: TootsNYC on April 10, 2013, 04:02:03 PM
I'm afraid I don't understand why you are dropping out instead of dropping only this class.  It seems that you should be close to finishing your degree and it seems extremely self-defeating to just stop going. 

I, along with everyone else, do offer you sympathy and a certain amount of understanding, but that seems like an extreme reaction to one boy in one class. 

Remember, people who succeed *in spite of* adverse situations are often highly respected.

This is my reaction.
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle? TINY Update 49, 62, 71, Final Update 86
Post by: Shoo on April 10, 2013, 04:03:39 PM
I'm afraid I don't understand why you are dropping out instead of dropping only this class.  It seems that you should be close to finishing your degree and it seems extremely self-defeating to just stop going. 

I, along with everyone else, do offer you sympathy and a certain amount of understanding, but that seems like an extreme reaction to one boy in one class. 

Remember, people who succeed *in spite of* adverse situations are often highly respected.

This is my reaction.

Mine too.  I find this whole situation baffling.  You'd really derail your entire life because of the actions of ONE person in ONE class?

There's got to be more going on here.  What you are doing doesn't make any sense.
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle? TINY Update 49, 62, 71, Final Update 86
Post by: TurtleDove on April 10, 2013, 04:10:25 PM
  What you are doing doesn't make any sense.

POD to oogyda, TootsNYC and Shoo. And thank you to Judah for clarifying what this guy did (and did not do).  I really don't understand why this whole thing is so upsetting to the OP, and I am sorry that it is, but to drop out of school over it really seems to be an extreme overreaction.
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle? TINY Update 49, 62, 71, Final Update 86
Post by: WillyNilly on April 10, 2013, 04:18:08 PM
I'm not the OP, but I can give a general answer.

The reality of this day & age is everyone is pretty much expected to go to college. Its talked about from when kids are a wee age, like back in first grade "someday when you go to college..." Its this huge cultural expectation. Its touted as the only way to be successful. Its the benchmark for many people to consider someone else smart, or datable, or worthy of being hired for even the most mindless of jobs. I mean look at this very thread "derail your entire life"? She's not derailing her entire life, shes dropping out of college. Trust me, her life won't fall of the skids and render her dead because of this one action! Calling her action, an action done to protect her emotional well being from daily crying jags as "extremely self-defeating"?

Another reality is - formal eduction and/or classroom learning are not for everyone. So a lot of people end up trying to squish their round brains into square classrooms. And they become miserable. And despite being bright, and insightful, and hardworking, they end up feeling stupid and useless and unworthy. Not because they are those things, but because they are following a path that might work for most people, but that doesn't work for them.

And when you are in that position. And paying for it - paying money, paying time, paying with your very soul as its sucked dry and bludgeoned to death - then something as inconsequential to others as annoying classmate, can become an intolerable hurdle.
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle? TINY Update 49, 62, 71, Final Update 86
Post by: *inviteseller on April 10, 2013, 04:36:25 PM
WilyNily..I totally understand what you are saying...my own DD is not a classroom type.  But she has almost finished, and as stressful as it is, it is one guy in one class.  Drop the class.  Yes, kids get it drilled into them about college these days because life experience no longer cuts it for a good job.  If this was her first year, I'd say withdraw and take a break..but 4 years??  I hate to see anyone throw away all their hard work for one bump in the road (an annoying bump, but not insurmountable).  We run into a lot of Joe's in our work experience.  You either have to learn to deal with them or you will always be hiding under a rock.  OP, I know you are burnt out (been there, as we all have) but one person in one class should not cause you to walk away from it all.
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle? TINY Update 49, 62, 71, Final Update 86
Post by: WillyNilly on April 10, 2013, 04:58:42 PM
WilyNily..I totally understand what you are saying...my own DD is not a classroom type.  But she has almost finished, and as stressful as it is, it is one guy in one class.  Drop the class.  Yes, kids get it drilled into them about college these days because life experience no longer cuts it for a good job.  If this was her first year, I'd say withdraw and take a break..but 4 years??  I hate to see anyone throw away all their hard work for one bump in the road (an annoying bump, but not insurmountable).  We run into a lot of Joe's in our work experience.  You either have to learn to deal with them or you will always be hiding under a rock.  OP, I know you are burnt out (been there, as we all have) but one person in one class should not cause you to walk away from it all.

Again I can't speak for the OP, but if she's been in school for 4 years for a 2 year degree, the problem is not as simple as "one guy in one class". The one guy was the final straw.

And leaving now is not "throwing away" anything - her credits won't dissolve or disappear. They will just sit there waiting for her if she ever wants to pick it back up.

And the reality is the college requirement is a LIE. Yes its required for many jobs but no its not the only thing that cuts it for a good job these days. Heck these days many people are dropping their higher degrees off their resumes because having a masters and especially a doctorate hold people back from getting jobs. I have no degree. My income is well above the national average for a person with a 4 year degree. I have friends without degrees, they too make way closer to 100k then 50k a year. And I know plenty of people with degrees making less then 50k and paying off student loans into their 40's. Not having a degree takes hard work to make it, but its absolutely possible.

College is a path. And a very good path. But it is not the only path. Not getting a degree doesn't automatically equal throwing anything out, or derailing one's life, or extremely self-defeating.  it can be those things, for some people. But for others getting off the college track can be very empowering, enlightening, it can open doors, it can bring joy back into life, it can be the best choice out there.

And the reality is, even if it is the wrong choice - its always there to go back to. There is no age limit on going to college. You can be 18, 28 or 88 and they will still take you. So if its miserable and taking too long and making the OP cry at the mere thought of it, yes she should take a break from school and go out and live life. She can pick up her already established credits at any point down the line and just add to them.
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle? TINY Update 49, 62, 71, Final Update 86
Post by: Shoo on April 10, 2013, 05:08:45 PM
Credits can and do expire.  If the OP quits now, she doesn't have an indefinite amount of time to return.  If she waits too long, she may have to start all over again.
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle? TINY Update 49, 62, 71, Final Update 86
Post by: Moray on April 10, 2013, 05:14:05 PM
WillyNilly, you seem to be projecting an awful lot and getting quite defensive about the idea that dropping out of college might not be the best thing.

No one has said "No, you may not do this!!!!". Several people have said that the OP should carefully consider whether dropping out entirely is the right choice for her, or whether it's an overreaction. It might be a good choice, it might be a bad choice, but in any case, it's a choice that has consequences, and those consequences should be weighed.

FWIW, I dropped out of college and have a very stable and well-paying career, but that was the right choice for me. It might not be the right choice for the OP.
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle? TINY Update 49, 62, 71, Final Update 86
Post by: Dr. F. on April 10, 2013, 05:18:32 PM
WilyNily..I totally understand what you are saying...my own DD is not a classroom type.  But she has almost finished, and as stressful as it is, it is one guy in one class.  Drop the class.  Yes, kids get it drilled into them about college these days because life experience no longer cuts it for a good job.  If this was her first year, I'd say withdraw and take a break..but 4 years??  I hate to see anyone throw away all their hard work for one bump in the road (an annoying bump, but not insurmountable).  We run into a lot of Joe's in our work experience.  You either have to learn to deal with them or you will always be hiding under a rock.  OP, I know you are burnt out (been there, as we all have) but one person in one class should not cause you to walk away from it all.

There is also the fact that it's very difficult to convey the impact of bullying/hostility in work or school in text form. I was undoubtedly bullied by my Former Horrible Boss, but any attempt to explain it to someone who wasn't there makes it sound like I was flipping out over small incidents and being "too sensitive." I wasn't, but even some people who know me well and were even there for some of the incidents thought I was overreacting because they hadn't experienced the overall pattern of behavior, which was, frankly, vicious. Those kinds of reactions just feed into the gaslighting  - "See, everyone else thinks you're too sensitive, too! I'm trying to HELP you by insulting you and nitpicking constantly! You need this kind of micromanagement because you're too incompetent to do it on your own." Only, not in those words, as that would be too obvious.

The OP tried to get her problem resolved, and was blown off. She escalated, and was blown off. I wouldn't want to have anything more to do with that institution, either, if they're not willing to take concerns about a hostile environment seriously.

All that being said, OP, I think it would be good for you to formally withdraw, for the reasons mentioned above, as well as being able to officially, in your own mind, say, "Yes, I'm DONE with them." It could be a form of closure. You should be able to do it online or via email, so you shouldn't need to talk to them at all.

P.S. Bullying/hostile work and learning environments in academia has become something of a pet cause for me, given some of my experiences. There are a few resources out there, though not as many as there should be.
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle? TINY Update 49, 62, 71, Final Update 86
Post by: TurtleDove on April 10, 2013, 05:45:48 PM
I am pretty sure having "fails" on one's academic record can have a very negative affect on whether that person is able to get into a different school. That is why so many of us are cautioning the OP to actually withdraw instead of just quitting.  Because if she wants to quit, then she should quit, but it is not true that she will always have the option of picking up where she left off.  With x number of "fails" on her record, she may not have the GPA required to get into a school.
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle? TINY Update 49, 62, 71, Final Update 86
Post by: ilrag on April 10, 2013, 06:42:30 PM
I'm not the OP, but I can give a general answer.

The reality of this day & age is everyone is pretty much expected to go to college. Its talked about from when kids are a wee age, like back in first grade "someday when you go to college..." Its this huge cultural expectation. Its touted as the only way to be successful. Its the benchmark for many people to consider someone else smart, or datable, or worthy of being hired for even the most mindless of jobs. I mean look at this very thread "derail your entire life"? She's not derailing her entire life, shes dropping out of college. Trust me, her life won't fall of the skids and render her dead because of this one action! Calling her action, an action done to protect her emotional well being from daily crying jags as "extremely self-defeating"?

Another reality is - formal eduction and/or classroom learning are not for everyone. So a lot of people end up trying to squish their round brains into square classrooms. And they become miserable. And despite being bright, and insightful, and hardworking, they end up feeling stupid and useless and unworthy. Not because they are those things, but because they are following a path that might work for most people, but that doesn't work for them.

And when you are in that position. And paying for it - paying money, paying time, paying with your very soul as its sucked dry and bludgeoned to death - then something as inconsequential to others as annoying classmate, can become an intolerable hurdle.

I don't think that's the case at all.  30% of adults in America have a bachelor's degree - hardly everyone.  I know plenty of people with our degrees that are never made to feel stupid or useless or unworthy.

(Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/24/education/census-finds-bachelors-degrees-at-record-level.html?_r=0)
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle? TINY Update 49, 62, 71, Final Update 86
Post by: WillyNilly on April 10, 2013, 06:45:10 PM
WillyNilly, you seem to be projecting an awful lot and getting quite defensive about the idea that dropping out of college might not be the best thing.

No one has said "No, you may not do this!!!!". Several people have said that the OP should carefully consider whether dropping out entirely is the right choice for her, or whether it's an overreaction. It might be a good choice, it might be a bad choice, but in any case, it's a choice that has consequences, and those consequences should be weighed.

FWIW, I dropped out of college and have a very stable and well-paying career, but that was the right choice for me. It might not be the right choice for the OP.

I'm getting defensive because people are throwing offensive words and phrases to the OP like "extreme overreaction", "derail your entire life", "throw away all [your] hard work", and "extremely self-defeating" along with telling her she "must" formally withdraw. That's some pretty harsh dog-piling for someone who came here already feeling pushed around and not listened to, and who admits the situation has her at tears just thinking about it. If I were the OP I'd be hoping someone would come to my defense!

The reality is while dropping out is probably not ideal, for now it might be the best realistic solution. Should she formally withdraw? Probably, yes. Must she?  No, she doesn't have to. And which ever she does, neither will have such devastating results on her life that the above quoted phrases are necessary.

Some credits might expire, but certainly all don't. And dropping out is not necessarily horrible on a record. I actually have returned to school - online, to a SUNY (State University of New York), a perfectly respectable fully accredited college. My having dropped out - not withdrawn, dropped out - in the past did not bar me entrance. And all of my credits (over 80) accumulated over the course of 18 years transferred with me, none had expired. Is mine a universal experience?  I'm sure its not. But it is my reality so its someone's else's possibility.

As I mentioned earlier, our culture drums the "you must go to college" mantra so deep into people's heads, I think its very important to counter that claim with the reality that success is possible without a degree. College is the best choice for many people, but not for all people; for some people, or at certain points in life, college is the worst choice.
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle? TINY Update 49, 62, 71, Final Update 86
Post by: Winterlight on April 10, 2013, 07:04:51 PM
I am pretty sure having "fails" on one's academic record can have a very negative affect on whether that person is able to get into a different school. That is why so many of us are cautioning the OP to actually withdraw instead of just quitting.  Because if she wants to quit, then she should quit, but it is not true that she will always have the option of picking up where she left off.  With x number of "fails" on her record, she may not have the GPA required to get into a school.

Exactly. If you withdraw, you don't have that big blemish on your record. If you just walk away, that's not going to look so good.
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle? TINY Update 49, 62, 71, Final Update 86
Post by: Nikko-chan on April 10, 2013, 07:31:18 PM
To answer all of your questions, yes I am going to formally withdraw and explain the many reasons why. And it's not just Joe that's making me drop out. It's everything. It's the fact that instead of going to school and working on math... everything is online, but I still must show up to class (basically doing an online class in class, which makes me go O.o) and I can't for the life of me figure it out (I haven't been tested but I suspect I might have a LD regarding math, and I want to get tested first before I even TRY to go back to a math class) it's also the fact that another one of my teachers is actually a Doctor. And speaks like one. So its like Intro to whatever and he's telling us things like he would speak to medical students, when in fact... none of us are in medical school.

 Plus the online class. Mine wasn't really easy because the online teacher thought that his class was the only one I was taking. So it was like "Oh! Watch this two hour video, do these eight questions! Respond to at least eight people per week with well thought out answers! Nevermind that said students when they typed typed in broken English and I couldn't tell what they were saying and so, I couldn't respond. I'd sit there going... "Uh.... what do they mean?" Or then you'd get weeks where I was ready to respond but no one had answered yet. So it was all in all a really bad system for that class. Joe just threw it over the edge.

And there are other reasons I am dropping out. There was about two weeks there, where I was too depressed to even get out of bed, I spent most of that time sleeping. So I really need to get myself together before I even go to another school. I am just too mentally and emotionally drained to deal with people right now.
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle? TINY Update 49, 62, 71, Final Update 86
Post by: AuntieA on April 10, 2013, 10:53:39 PM
Nikko, I know exactly what you're talking about. I'm sending you hugs and my hope that you are able to get yourself together. Your reasoning is right, one cannot present oneself in a good light if one is dealing with depression/anxiety.
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle? TINY Update 49, 62, 71, Final Update 86
Post by: Katana_Geldar on April 10, 2013, 11:24:29 PM
Nikko, you take the time you need and do what you need to do. I've been there myself, where you are and know a bit f what it's like.

Lots of hugs coming your way!
Title: Re: Bullying in college-- how to handle? TINY Update 49, 62, 71, Final Update 86
Post by: Winterlight on April 11, 2013, 09:08:05 AM
It sounds like you've thought it through, so I'll wish you good luck and a speedy recovery from the stress.