Etiquette Hell

General Etiquette => Family and Children => Topic started by: SPuck on February 21, 2013, 01:20:52 PM

Title: When the camera shy feel left out
Post by: SPuck on February 21, 2013, 01:20:52 PM
http://www.denverpost.com/askamy/ci_22631432/ask-amy-couple-wants-exclude-cousins-from-house-warming-party-2-21-2013 (http://www.denverpost.com/askamy/ci_22631432/ask-amy-couple-wants-exclude-cousins-from-house-warming-party-2-21-2013)

I was reading Ask Amy today, as well as CrochetFanatic's thread, and I feel that the advice was off. If you actively try to delete yourself from family and candid photos, you shouldn't complain when you don't appear in the albums.
Title: Re: When the camera shy feel left out
Post by: LeveeWoman on February 21, 2013, 01:24:10 PM
http://www.denverpost.com/askamy/ci_22631432/ask-amy-couple-wants-exclude-cousins-from-house-warming-party-2-21-2013 (http://www.denverpost.com/askamy/ci_22631432/ask-amy-couple-wants-exclude-cousins-from-house-warming-party-2-21-2013)

I was reading Ask Amy today, as well as CrochetFanatic's thread, and I feel that the advice was off. If you actively try to delete yourself from family and candid photos, you shouldn't complain when you don't appear in the albums.

Unlike our CrochetFanatic, the step-mother sounds as if she's a special snowflake.
Title: Re: When the camera shy feel left out
Post by: Moray on February 21, 2013, 01:26:40 PM
http://www.denverpost.com/askamy/ci_22631432/ask-amy-couple-wants-exclude-cousins-from-house-warming-party-2-21-2013 (http://www.denverpost.com/askamy/ci_22631432/ask-amy-couple-wants-exclude-cousins-from-house-warming-party-2-21-2013)

I was reading Ask Amy today, as well as CrochetFanatic's thread, and I feel that the advice was off. If you actively try to delete yourself from family and candid photos, you shouldn't complain when you don't appear in the albums.

Unlike our CrochetFanatic, the step-mother sounds as if she's a special snowflake.

POD.
Title: Re: When the camera shy feel left out
Post by: Shoo on February 21, 2013, 01:29:46 PM
I actually kind of agree with Amy on this one.  At least, I agree that having some compassion for the stepmother's feelings is warranted.  I don't think she's a special snowflake for feeling like she does.  I think anyone would feel left out, regardless of how or why it happened.  I like Amy's idea of talking about it and promising to make sure to get shots of her and the baby from now on so she can be included in the next photo book.
Title: Re: When the camera shy feel left out
Post by: Judah on February 21, 2013, 01:31:20 PM
I actually kind of agree with Amy on this one.  At least, I agree that having some compassion for the stepmother's feelings is warranted.  I don't think she's a special snowflake for feeling like she does.  I think anyone would feel left out, regardless of how or why it happened.  I like Amy's idea of talking about it and promising to make sure to get shots of her and the baby from now on so she can be included in the next photo book.

But she excluded herself. I can understand her feeling left out, but she did it to herself and doesn't have a leg to stand on.
Title: Re: When the camera shy feel left out
Post by: Shoo on February 21, 2013, 01:34:21 PM
I actually kind of agree with Amy on this one.  At least, I agree that having some compassion for the stepmother's feelings is warranted.  I don't think she's a special snowflake for feeling like she does.  I think anyone would feel left out, regardless of how or why it happened.  I like Amy's idea of talking about it and promising to make sure to get shots of her and the baby from now on so she can be included in the next photo book.

But she excluded herself. I can understand her feeling left out, but she did it to herself and doesn't have a leg to stand on.

Yes, but that doesn't mean she doesn't *feel* the way she feels.  I think being kind and promising to include her more in the future is the way to handle this.  She didn't know a picture book would be made, just like the letter writer didn't know.  Now they all know, and so if it happens again, THEN she won't have a leg to stand on.
Title: Re: When the camera shy feel left out
Post by: rose red on February 21, 2013, 01:34:38 PM
Reminds me of an old Cathy comic strip where Cathy keeps hiding and complaining when her mother tries to take pictures.  In the last panel, the family is looking at photo albums and Cathy cries "why aren't there pictures of me?!"

The couple doesn't owe the stepmother an apology.  They can explain how the books came about, but no apology.

eta:  Even if the photos are not Christmas gifts to be shared with the world, the stepmother didn't even want private pictures of her and the baby for the first nine months?  It sounds like it's only now that the pictures are public that she's crying foul.
Title: Re: When the camera shy feel left out
Post by: TurtleDove on February 21, 2013, 01:36:59 PM
I'm with Judah.  This woman cannot have it both ways.  The letter writer honored her wishes not to be photographed.  Hence, there were no photographs of her.  Bed. Made. Lie.  If the woman wants to be in an upcoming book, she should let people take her photo.  It's really that simple.  I think the woman chose an odd form of vanity over photographic memories of times she shared with her grandchild.
Title: Re: When the camera shy feel left out
Post by: GSNW on February 21, 2013, 01:42:15 PM
The stepmother in the letter needs to get over herself.  The photo album is about baby.  Stepmother is actively adverse to people keeping pictures of her.  Hello?  Is this about her time with baby or her need to feel glamorous in every photo?  Her attitude needs some self-examination.

I love having pics of myself with my nieces.  I say to SIL, "Hey, get one with me and the girls."  I don't pout if she doesn't do it herself and I don't examine images for flaws before I allow them to be kept/printed.  It's not about me!

It's been said plenty of times here but applies in this situation.  Being polite/considerate doesn't mean being a doormat, and Amy's reply is ridiculous.  "Too rushed to be inclusive" ?  Sorry, that's not what actually happened.  Amy expects the parents to justify a "flaw" their generous/fun project that was the direct result of Stepmother's nonsense.  I don't think so!
Title: Re: When the camera shy feel left out
Post by: SPuck on February 21, 2013, 01:48:17 PM
Unlike our CrochetFanatic, the step-mother sounds as if she's a special snowflake.

I was just inspired to post it because of the threat, not about anyone in particular.
Title: Re: When the camera shy feel left out
Post by: bah12 on February 21, 2013, 02:00:00 PM
While I agree with those that say that someone that doesn't want their picture taken shouldn't complain about not being in a photo album, I do think that those that made the album could have at least reached out to her and said "we're making an album about the baby and giving it to the whole family.  Everyone is in it but you.  Do you have a picture of you'd like us to include?"  Granted, that wasn't the plan when they took the pictures, but once they decided to do it, I don't think it would have been so bad to just mention it to her so that she's not left out.

A photo album on your coffee table with pictures from your family vacation that don't include SM, is one thing.  But an album, given as a gift to all grandparents that don't include one of the grandparents receiving the gift, does seem off.  The purpose of the "gift" I think would be for the grandparents to have a momento of their first moments with the baby.  But the SM was given a gift that she can't really use for that purpose. Even if it stemmed from her not wanting her picture taken, I do think that the LW could have asked her for something to include (I would not have made a special trip to take a specific picture after the fact).
Title: Re: When the camera shy feel left out
Post by: Deetee on February 21, 2013, 02:03:08 PM
I think that while the step-mom is a bit silly, the advice is still sound. Apologize and take a few bonus pics.

This also depends on HOW picky the step mom is.

I made a similar album when my kid was one and gave one to each set of grandparents (4 sets, so 8 total). We made 4 versions of the album and each one for the grandparents included at least one shot of each grandparent with the baby. (Most pics were the same and then we included various relatives that got divvied into two sets as being of more interest)

Unless the step-mom was actively snatching the camera from my hand, I would have had a shot of her at some point.

(FTR, I think the step-mom and dad are petty and ridiculous, but there is nothing to be lost by saying "Yeah, it was tough because step-mom kept asking us delete the pictures that had her in them. I'm sorry about that. This year we can try to get some more photos and, please always remember that if you have any nice ones that you want to send us we can get them in next years.")
Title: Re: When the camera shy feel left out
Post by: TurtleDove on February 21, 2013, 02:11:18 PM
But an album, given as a gift to all grandparents that don't include one of the grandparents receiving the gift, does seem off.  The purpose of the "gift" I think would be for the grandparents to have a momento of their first moments with the baby. 

I agree.  But it is solely the SM's fault that photos of her do not exist.  I don't even see this as the SM being wronged, but rather the baby and family who do not have photos of the baby with his SGM because she placed her own version of vanity over the joy of capturing what she really looks like, right now, when her grandchild is young, playing with him.  It baffles me!
Title: Re: When the camera shy feel left out
Post by: Knitterly on February 21, 2013, 02:18:16 PM
I also feel that the stepmother is being a special snowflake.  Not to mention ridiculous!

Something really similar happened to me at LK's one month celebration (chinese family tradition).  We had a slideshow playing of pictures taken to date.  There were lots of Mr K and I with LK.  Lots of LK on her own.  Lots of LK with Mr K's parents.  None of LK with my parents.

My mother, naturally, was horribly offended and came up to me demanding to know why there were no pictures of her and my father.  I was so utterly stunned, that it was one of the few times I had a solid retort that was neither rude nor apologetic and doormat-ish.
I just looked at her and said "Uhm, because there are no pictures of you and dad."

She visited me once for 10 minutes 2 weeks after LK was born.  That celebration was the first time my dad had seen LK.

I sat her and my dad down and took a picture right then and there.  I included it in all future baby albums that she would be likely to see.  The audacity of that statement still leaves me shaking my head a year and a half later.

Amy's advice was wrong.  You cannot include something that simply doesn't exist.  And if the stepmother is so incredibly self-absorbed to not realize that, it's hardly the letter writer's fault.  If the stepmother doesn't approve pictures of her, there can be no pictures of her to include, regardless of how much effort you make to take them.
Title: Re: When the camera shy feel left out
Post by: bah12 on February 21, 2013, 02:27:25 PM
But an album, given as a gift to all grandparents that don't include one of the grandparents receiving the gift, does seem off.  The purpose of the "gift" I think would be for the grandparents to have a momento of their first moments with the baby. 

I agree.  But it is solely the SM's fault that photos of her do not exist.  I don't even see this as the SM being wronged, but rather the baby and family who do not have photos of the baby with his SGM because she placed her own version of vanity over the joy of capturing what she really looks like, right now, when her grandchild is young, playing with him.  It baffles me!

Yes, it is her fault.  She is being ridiculous and now she sees the consequences of how ridiculous that is. 

But, I still think it's insensitive to give her a "gift" chronicling the baby's first 9 months, include every other grandparent and great grandparent and not include her.  Why give her the gift?  I see this as a sticky issue too with step parents.  She didn't consider the consequences of her vanity and that's on her.  I just think that the LW could have been like "SM, I'm making this album and I noticed you're not in any picture that we have.  If you send me some pictures by X date, I'll include you.  I really wish we had more candid shots of you and baby as we all enjoy looking back on them and remembering that all of us, inlcuding you, were there." 

So, SM is at fault..., but I also think that the LW could have been more sensitive too. 
Title: Re: When the camera shy feel left out
Post by: lady_disdain on February 21, 2013, 02:38:13 PM
Unfortunately, the alternatives would be to give all the other grandparents copies of the album and still excluding her or not giving any albums, which would be unfair to the others.
Title: Re: When the camera shy feel left out
Post by: Giggity on February 21, 2013, 03:02:19 PM
We can do this like you do with kids: Choices and Consequences. Every choice has a consequence. She is an adult. She made the choice to not be in any pictures. She has to live with the consequence, which (not surprisingly) is that there are no pictures of her.
Title: Re: When the camera shy feel left out
Post by: kudeebee on February 21, 2013, 03:03:47 PM
I actually like what knitterly said "because there are no pictures of you and baby" and would use this when talking with the two of them.

If it is brought up again, tell her and fil that you are sorry that this happened but there were not any pictures of sm and baby to include because none exist.  Tell sm that you would like to have some pics with baby that could be included in a future album, but if you keep telling us to delete photos of you, there won't be any.  Ask if she would like you to take a few pics right now that you could perhaps use for another album.  See what she says and go from there.

Title: Re: When the camera shy feel left out
Post by: rose red on February 21, 2013, 03:08:23 PM
A PP said it's vanity and I agree.  It's not a formal portrait in which she was excluded.  It's candid and impromptu shots of the baby's life, and relatives happen to be in some of them.  The SM is the one who deleted herself out of the baby's life (in picture form) for the first 9 months.  Why does she care now when she didn't care there were no pictures before?  It's not because of the baby, but because she feels left out and is now making it all about her.  She can still take new pictures and stick it in her album, but then the other giftees won't have her picture.  ::)

eta:  Ok, perhaps the reason she is upset is because she wouldn't have deleted pictures if she'd known about the book, but even the couple didn't know.  The only person she should be upset with is herself.
Title: Re: When the camera shy feel left out
Post by: TurtleDove on February 21, 2013, 03:14:08 PM
But, I still think it's insensitive to give her a "gift" chronicling the baby's first 9 months, include every other grandparent and great grandparent and not include her.  Why give her the gift?  I see this as a sticky issue too with step parents.  She didn't consider the consequences of her vanity and that's on her.  I just think that the LW could have been like "SM, I'm making this album and I noticed you're not in any picture that we have.  If you send me some pictures by X date, I'll include you.  I really wish we had more candid shots of you and baby as we all enjoy looking back on them and remembering that all of us, inlcuding you, were there." 

So, SM is at fault..., but I also think that the LW could have been more sensitive too.

I though SM was married to the LW's father, who is in the book? That is why I would give it to her/them.  I also think it would be really strange to include a photo of the SM without the baby. This is not about the SM! I guess I see that the LW could have done X, Y or Z, but I don't think she was at all insensitive for not doing so. 
Title: Re: When the camera shy feel left out
Post by: bah12 on February 21, 2013, 03:22:37 PM
No.  If someone came on this board and said "I'm making a photo album about my baby and giving it to all grandparents, but I don't have any pictures of my SM because she doesn't like her picture being taken.  What do I do?"

I would say, "Ask her for some pictures.  Give her a date to get them to you and make your album. If she doesn't get you the pictures or makes it too much of an ordeal go along with your plans without her."  I get that others would go the 'do nothing' route, but that's just not how I'd handle that situation and don't feel even that it's the best way to handle it (not rude, maybe etiquettely correct, but not the best way).

Just because the SM is weird and wrong and a special snowflake, doesn't give anyone else an excuse to be insensitive and shrug it off as "she made her bed and I'm helping her lie in it."

How hard is it to ask for a picture?  Or even do what was suggested to the LW and say "I just didn't have any pictures of you.  I understand how you feel and I wasn't trying to purposely exclude you. If you let me take pictures of you in the future, I'll be sure to include you in future albums."  None of these require much effort on the LW's part and it keeps her in the clear as far as accusations of "not doing enough" to include her SM.
Title: Re: When the camera shy feel left out
Post by: TurtleDove on February 21, 2013, 03:31:21 PM
"I just didn't have any pictures of you.  I understand how you feel and I wasn't trying to purposely exclude you. If you let me take pictures of you in the future, I'll be sure to include you in future albums." 

This I would do.
Title: Re: When the camera shy feel left out
Post by: Judah on February 21, 2013, 03:40:46 PM
"I just didn't have any pictures of you.  I understand how you feel and I wasn't trying to purposely exclude you. If you let me take pictures of you in the future, I'll be sure to include you in future albums." 

This I would do.

I agree. I wouldn't say, "Too bad, so sad. This is what happens when you don't let us take pictures of you."  I would likely say something like the quote above, but I would make it clear that the reason there aren't any pictures of her in the album is because she wouldn't let us take any and if she'd like to be included in the future, she needs to make herself available for pictures.
Title: Re: When the camera shy feel left out
Post by: NyaChan on February 21, 2013, 03:42:38 PM
No.  If someone came on this board and said "I'm making a photo album about my baby and giving it to all grandparents, but I don't have any pictures of my SM because she doesn't like her picture being taken.  What do I do?"

I would say, "Ask her for some pictures.  Give her a date to get them to you and make your album. If she doesn't get you the pictures or makes it too much of an ordeal go along with your plans without her."  I get that others would go the 'do nothing' route, but that's just not how I'd handle that situation and don't feel even that it's the best way to handle it (not rude, maybe etiquettely correct, but not the best way).

Just because the SM is weird and wrong and a special snowflake, doesn't give anyone else an excuse to be insensitive and shrug it off as "she made her bed and I'm helping her lie in it."

How hard is it to ask for a picture?  Or even do what was suggested to the LW and say "I just didn't have any pictures of you.  I understand how you feel and I wasn't trying to purposely exclude you. If you let me take pictures of you in the future, I'll be sure to include you in future albums."  None of these require much effort on the LW's part and it keeps her in the clear as far as accusations of "not doing enough" to include her SM.

Exactly.  This is what I was thinking.  They may not have known every time they took the pictures originally that they would be used in a book, but once they knew they were making such a book, they should have made an effort to get a picture so that they could include it.
Title: Re: When the camera shy feel left out
Post by: TurtleDove on February 21, 2013, 03:47:03 PM
Exactly.  This is what I was thinking.  They may not have known every time they took the pictures originally that they would be used in a book, but once they knew they were making such a book, they should have made an effort to get a picture so that they could include it.

This makes my brian hurt in conjuction with the thread that suggested such behavior would be bullying!  Either we are to respect someone's wishes who asks not to be photographed or not.
Title: Re: When the camera shy feel left out
Post by: GSNW on February 21, 2013, 03:53:51 PM

This makes my brian hurt in conjuction with the thread that suggested such behavior would be bullying!  Either we are to respect someone's wishes who asks not to be photographed or not.

Agreed!  And Ask Amy did NOT suggest that the LW simply say, "there weren't any pictures of you."  What she said was tell her "You were too rushed to be inclusive."  This is a flat-out lie.  They put together a book with the materials they had, and SM made sure they didn't have any of her.  She might not have foreseen the consequences, but it's not the LW's responsibility to soothe SM's ego based on her OWN choices.
Title: Re: When the camera shy feel left out
Post by: bah12 on February 21, 2013, 03:54:38 PM
Exactly.  This is what I was thinking.  They may not have known every time they took the pictures originally that they would be used in a book, but once they knew they were making such a book, they should have made an effort to get a picture so that they could include it.

This makes my brian hurt in conjuction with the thread that suggested such behavior would be bullying!  Either we are to respect someone's wishes who asks not to be photographed or not.

How is mentioning the album not respecting their wishes? She's still not insisting that the photo be taken.

LW: "I want to take a picture of you and baby."
SM: "No, I prefer you not".
LW: "Ok"  Respecting wishes.
or
LW: 'click' - not respecting wishes

"Hey, I'm making the grandparents a photo album filled with pictures of them and the baby.  Do you want to be included?  I don't have any pictures of you..."

Considerate...not disrespectful.  She can still say no.

Also, I want to add that I think that the SM shouldn't have made a big deal about this.  Yes, I think that the LW should have said something to her before hand, but when she didn't, she should have just realized that this is her fault and let it go.  It just doesn't change my opinion about the LW should have done or what she should do now.
Title: Re: When the camera shy feel left out
Post by: TurtleDove on February 21, 2013, 03:57:38 PM
"Hey, I'm making the grandparents a photo album filled with pictures of them and the baby.  Do you want to be included?  I don't have any pictures of you..."

Even after the SM has asked to not have her photo taken? 
Title: Re: When the camera shy feel left out
Post by: Deetee on February 21, 2013, 04:01:00 PM
Exactly.  This is what I was thinking.  They may not have known every time they took the pictures originally that they would be used in a book, but once they knew they were making such a book, they should have made an effort to get a picture so that they could include it.

This makes my brian hurt in conjuction with the thread that suggested such behavior would be bullying!  Either we are to respect someone's wishes who asks not to be photographed or not.

I think you are searching for false comparisons. No-one thinks that a simple request for a photo is bullying or unreasonable. Also the step-mom is picky, but she still allows her picture to be taken. So the suggestion that the couple contact step mum and say "hey we want a picture or you won't be in the album" is perfect. The step-mum can refuse and then loses the right to complain about not being included. Or she can get some pictures taken. The choice is hers.
Title: Re: When the camera shy feel left out
Post by: Ceallach on February 21, 2013, 04:06:02 PM
Actions have consequences.  If I were the stepmother, I would feel hurt, but i would also recognize that the situation was of my own making.    I don't think the couple were rude assuming they at least attempted to find a photo in their collection.

Personally I have no patience for the camera shy (despite being terribly un photogenic myself!) and frequently find camera shy behavior to actually and ironically be attention seeking.  I will always respect their wishes, but I'm not going to go out of my way to pander to them.
Title: Re: When the camera shy feel left out
Post by: TurtleDove on February 21, 2013, 04:11:46 PM
Personally I have no patience for the camera shy (despite being terribly un photogenic myself!) and frequently find camera shy behavior to actually and ironically be attention seeking.  I will always respect their wishes, but I'm not going to go out of my way to pander to them.

This is the way I feel about it.  In this situation, I don't really understand why the SM both 1) does not want her photo taken but 2) is upset that her photo is not in a book to be shown to others.  I think both are attention seeking behavior. And again, this is a BABY book.  Not a SM book.
Title: Re: When the camera shy feel left out
Post by: bah12 on February 21, 2013, 04:19:53 PM
"Hey, I'm making the grandparents a photo album filled with pictures of them and the baby.  Do you want to be included?  I don't have any pictures of you..."

Even after the SM has asked to not have her photo taken?

she's picky about the photos and asks that they be deleted...not that she never wants her picture taken.
Title: Re: When the camera shy feel left out
Post by: Hawkwatcher on February 21, 2013, 04:24:45 PM
I think the LW was in a lose-lose situation.  If the LW had told the SM that they were making a book, she might have let them keep the pictures.  But once she got the book, she might have still complained if the pictures were less than perfect.
Title: Re: When the camera shy feel left out
Post by: TurtleDove on February 21, 2013, 04:26:30 PM
she's picky about the photos and asks that they be deleted...not that she never wants her picture taken.

I still struggle to see how this would play out.  So now time playing with the baby becomes more about a photo shoot for the SM, with constant breaks for her to make she gets a shot she approves of?  What if the baby doesn't look good in a particular photo?  I am glad I don't have to deal with this.  To me, the SM is 100% SS.
Title: Re: When the camera shy feel left out
Post by: bah12 on February 21, 2013, 04:42:57 PM
she's picky about the photos and asks that they be deleted...not that she never wants her picture taken.

I still struggle to see how this would play out.  So now time playing with the baby becomes more about a photo shoot for the SM, with constant breaks for her to make she gets a shot she approves of?  What if the baby doesn't look good in a particular photo?  I am glad I don't have to deal with this.  To me, the SM is 100% SS.

I really don't think this has to be that complicated.  Yes SM is an SS.  When she asks not to have her picture taken, then don't take her pictures.  When she asks they be deleted, then delete them.  When you (LW) decide that you want to gift all the grandparents, including her, a photo album, then ask her if she wants to provide a picture to be included.  If she doesn't then as least you know that you tried to include her.

If the LW was just making a photo album of the baby for her coffee table, then whatever.  But, I do think that she should put a little more effort into it when she's gifting it out...SS or not.  The LW doesn't have to put any more effort into it after asking for a picture.  She doesn't have to take the picture herself, set it up, make sure everyone looks just right. She should just ask for one...if one doesn't exist, then it doesn't exist. 
Title: Re: When the camera shy feel left out
Post by: EllenS on February 21, 2013, 05:02:49 PM
I suddenly had a mental image of next year's photo book...candid shots of everyone with the baby, and then one retouched, 15-year old "glamorshot" photo of SM all by herself.

Title: Re: When the camera shy feel left out
Post by: LeveeWoman on February 21, 2013, 05:06:05 PM
I suddenly had a mental image of next year's photo book...candid shots of everyone with the baby, and then one retouched, 15-year old "glamorshot" photo of SM all by herself.

With the baby photo-shopped into it.
Title: Re: When the camera shy feel left out
Post by: GSNW on February 21, 2013, 05:08:20 PM
I decided that SM's motives are questionable at best.  So when photos are being taken, she makes a point of asking people to delete them because she's "picky."  This would indicate that it doesn't bother her that pictures of herself with baby are very rare to nonexistent.

Of course, when the pictures get published in a public (within the family) album, suddenly her inclusion is important? 

If this were about making sure she has memories with baby, she would not have been so SS about photos in the first place.  It seems to me that it's more about realizing that she hasn't been documented in her "rightful" place.  Again, who is this about?  SM sure seems to think it's about her!
Title: Re: When the camera shy feel left out
Post by: NyaChan on February 21, 2013, 05:08:47 PM
Exactly.  This is what I was thinking.  They may not have known every time they took the pictures originally that they would be used in a book, but once they knew they were making such a book, they should have made an effort to get a picture so that they could include it.

This makes my brian hurt in conjuction with the thread that suggested such behavior would be bullying!  Either we are to respect someone's wishes who asks not to be photographed or not.

I think you are searching for false comparisons. No-one thinks that a simple request for a photo is bullying or unreasonable. Also the step-mom is picky, but she still allows her picture to be taken. So the suggestion that the couple contact step mum and say "hey we want a picture or you won't be in the album" is perfect. The step-mum can refuse and then loses the right to complain about not being included. Or she can get some pictures taken. The choice is hers.

Exactly - I'm not saying they should force her to take a picture.  I am saying that they could have asked her, "Stepmom, I realized that we don't have even 1 picture of you with the baby.  Can we please take one so the baby will have one of the two of you?"  How is that bullying?  If she says no, back off and remind her of it if she still complains upon finding that she's been left out of the book.
Title: Re: When the camera shy feel left out
Post by: StuffedGrapeLeaves on February 21, 2013, 05:09:20 PM
I wonder if the LW and his wife thought they were honoring SM's wishes by not having any pictures of her in the book, since she hates being in pictures so much. 

I can see them thinking that if they include any picture, then SM will complain about them.  If they ask SM for acceptable pictures, then that might make it a bigger deal than needed or she might get upset that they are not honoring her wishes about no pictures.

I feel that LW still should have asked, but at the same time, SM is a SS for complaining about it. 
Title: Re: When the camera shy feel left out
Post by: StuffedGrapeLeaves on February 21, 2013, 05:11:22 PM
Again, who is this about?  SM sure seems to think it's about her!

I agree with this, especially since the father and SM were complaining that they should have done a special photo shoot with just SM in order to include her in the photobook. 

Title: Re: When the camera shy feel left out
Post by: GSNW on February 21, 2013, 05:12:03 PM
I feel that LW still should have asked, but at the same time, SM is a SS for complaining about it.

And this is the heart of the matter.  SM was rude in having a little fit over this whole thing.  Now if LW and her husband apologize and make nonsense excuses, all this tells SM is that she can continue her SS behavior in the future, take exception to the outcome, and be catered to.  Doormat, meet stomping boots.
Title: Re: When the camera shy feel left out
Post by: rose red on February 21, 2013, 05:17:27 PM
I suddenly had a mental image of next year's photo book...candid shots of everyone with the baby, and then one retouched, 15-year old "glamorshot" photo of SM all by herself.

I was thinking the same thing.  Not a "glamorshot" but a perfectly posed picture of gussied up SM and the baby in an album full of candids.  I'm sorry, but if it were me, I want those looking at the album focus on the baby and the naturalness of the other subjects.  A shot like that will jump out and focus on SM.
Title: Re: When the camera shy feel left out
Post by: Sheila Take a Bow on February 21, 2013, 05:21:12 PM
she's picky about the photos and asks that they be deleted...not that she never wants her picture taken.

I still struggle to see how this would play out.  So now time playing with the baby becomes more about a photo shoot for the SM, with constant breaks for her to make she gets a shot she approves of?  What if the baby doesn't look good in a particular photo?  I am glad I don't have to deal with this.  To me, the SM is 100% SS.

I'm with you, TurtleDove.  When I try to get pictures of my kid, I'm looking for candids, not photo sessions.  The letter writer's baby is a person, not a prop for Stepmother's photo shoot.  If she shies away from photos or demands that they're deleted, she has to face the consequences.

My sister hates having her picture taken.  For years I couldn't get a picture of her.  But when my daughter was born, my sister realized that if she wanted my daughter to look back and remember hanging out with her favorite auntie, she was going to have to let her picture be taken a few times.

Now I have tons of pictures of my sister.  It wasn't hard for her to figure out that if she wants to be part of the photographic memories, she's going to have to be in some photos.
Title: Re: When the camera shy feel left out
Post by: bah12 on February 21, 2013, 05:25:35 PM
I suddenly had a mental image of next year's photo book...candid shots of everyone with the baby, and then one retouched, 15-year old "glamorshot" photo of SM all by herself.

I was thinking the same thing.  Not a "glamorshot" but a perfectly posed picture of gussied up SM and the baby in an album full of candids.  I'm sorry, but if it were me, I want those looking at the album focus on the baby and the naturalness of the other subjects.  A shot like that will jump out and focus on SM.

Yes.  Except that this album isn't for you...it's for the grandparents (even if it's about the baby).  Including SM.  If she wants to stick out like a sore thumb, what's it to you?  It's not positive attention.

Personally, I think photo albums as gifts are thoughtful in concept, but too much trouble in execution (when you're giving the same gift to many people).  If it's your photo album, made for you, then I'm with all those that say that no effort to tell SM it exists (or will in the future) need be made, nor any apologies for her omission.  It just all changes for me when the album becomes a gift for her. 
Title: Re: When the camera shy feel left out
Post by: Twik on February 21, 2013, 05:40:08 PM
I suddenly had a mental image of next year's photo book...candid shots of everyone with the baby, and then one retouched, 15-year old "glamorshot" photo of SM all by herself.

With the baby photo-shopped into it.

Pure brilliance.
Title: Re: When the camera shy feel left out
Post by: JeanFromBNA on February 21, 2013, 06:16:35 PM
Personally I have no patience for the camera shy (despite being terribly un photogenic myself!) and frequently find camera shy behavior to actually and ironically be attention seeking.  I will always respect their wishes, but I'm not going to go out of my way to pander to them.

This is the way I feel about it.  In this situation, I don't really understand why the SM both 1) does not want her photo taken but 2) is upset that her photo is not in a book to be shown to others.  I think both are attention seeking behavior. And again, this is a BABY book.  Not a SM book.

Me three. 

Anybody else getting an ad for a photo-retouching service?
Title: Re: When the camera shy feel left out
Post by: Yvaine on February 21, 2013, 06:23:52 PM
I suddenly had a mental image of next year's photo book...candid shots of everyone with the baby, and then one retouched, 15-year old "glamorshot" photo of SM all by herself.

With the baby photo-shopped into it.

Riding a T-Rex.
Title: Re: When the camera shy feel left out
Post by: flowersintheattic on February 21, 2013, 06:30:37 PM
The actions of everyone in the letter make me wonder how forceful and demanding SM is about deleting the photos. I'm picturing a situation where a flash goes off and she's immediately asking to review, then spends a minute looking at it and demands that it be deleted without any regard to anyone else. I have a friend like that, and it gets exhausting.

If that's the case, I don't blame the LW and her husband for not wanting to ask for a picture or give the SM the opportunity to take photos. It's their child - if they don't have any pictures of SM with the baby, it's entirely possible there actually aren't any. And allowing her to take one to submit would likely turn into a hours-long process with her reviewing every. Single. Shot. Taken.

I agree that it probably would have been nicer for the LW to inform SM that they didn't have any pics of her for the book, and find out if she wanted to give them one, but I understand why they didn't.
Title: Re: When the camera shy feel left out
Post by: Thipu1 on February 21, 2013, 06:36:12 PM
I actually kind of agree with Amy on this one.  At least, I agree that having some compassion for the stepmother's feelings is warranted.  I don't think she's a special snowflake for feeling like she does.  I think anyone would feel left out, regardless of how or why it happened.  I like Amy's idea of talking about it and promising to make sure to get shots of her and the baby from now on so she can be included in the next photo book.

But she excluded herself. I can understand her feeling left out, but she did it to herself and doesn't have a leg to stand on.

I agree with this.  If the Stepmother didn't want to be photographed, she didn't want to be photographed.  It was her decision.

Feeling left out when you opted out of the opportunity doesn't quite work for me. 

If the LW had told SM that the photos were going into an album to be distributed to the family, she might have taken a different view. 
Title: Re: When the camera shy feel left out
Post by: Bluenomi on February 21, 2013, 06:40:01 PM
If there aren't any photos of SM to put in the album, she doesn't have any right to get offended. Especially if she made the parents delete any they had. I also get the impression if they did put any photos of her in, they'd be in trouble for picking 'embarassing' ones.

I had to make a photo album for DD's daycare recently. When looking for photos I realised I don't have any of DD with FIL. He doesn't like being in photos, he always takes them so I've got the rest of the family in the album but none of him with DD. He's never going to know but if he found out and was offended I'd point out it's hard to put a photo in when it doesn't exsist. He lives interstate so I can't just duck over and get one either
Title: Re: When the camera shy feel left out
Post by: Deetee on February 21, 2013, 06:47:21 PM
As various people have said, it is important that this was gift given to people, as opposed to a photo album for the parents. I already mentioned how I did the same thing and, even though I do not consider myself a pandery person at all, I made utterly sure that there was pictures of the recipients in each seperate album.

There were two important reasons
1) This was a gift for them, so I tried to include people they cared about in the album as well as themselves.
2) It is important to me that each of my daughter's grandparents feels included in her life. She cannot have too many people love her. (She has eight grandparents)

One more story, I find my dad's wife a bit difficult for several reasons. We are not close. But she loves our daughter and has a very nice relationship with her (independent of me or my dad). It has been nice to watch that relationship grow and I am very happy with my intitial decision to welcome all grandparents (step or blood) and treat them as equally as possible.
Title: Re: When the camera shy feel left out
Post by: blarg314 on February 21, 2013, 07:08:35 PM
The family wasn't taking the photos with the idea of doing an album.  They took tons of photos, and then decided to make an album, and there weren't any photos of SM to put in it. They could have called her up and scheduled a professional photo shoot when they were doing the album, but that would still be one posed photo taken after all the other photos in the album. They still wouldn't be able to include her a chronicle of the baby's first nine months because those photos didn't exist.

If you don't like having your picture taken, and insist on having photos deleted, then a logical consequence of this will be a lack of photos including you.

In the future, I'd send photo albums to the other grandparents and great grandparents only.

My experience is that grandparents can absolutely love albums like this, and that they make great gifts. If grandparent1 lives nearby and grandparent2 doesn't, it would be insensitive to give them an album full of photos of baby with grandparent1 only, because that rubs in the fact that one set of grandparents gets a lot more time with the baby than the others. But if someone insists on photos of them being deleted, there's not much you can do.
Title: Re: When the camera shy feel left out
Post by: LeveeWoman on February 21, 2013, 07:32:33 PM
The family wasn't taking the photos with the idea of doing an album.  They took tons of photos, and then decided to make an album, and there weren't any photos of SM to put in it. They could have called her up and scheduled a professional photo shoot when they were doing the album, but that would still be one posed photo taken after all the other photos in the album. They still wouldn't be able to include her a chronicle of the baby's first nine months because those photos didn't exist.

If you don't like having your picture taken, and insist on having photos deleted, then a logical consequence of this will be a lack of photos including you.

In the future, I'd send photo albums to the other grandparents and great grandparents only.

My experience is that grandparents can absolutely love albums like this, and that they make great gifts. If grandparent1 lives nearby and grandparent2 doesn't, it would be insensitive to give them an album full of photos of baby with grandparent1 only, because that rubs in the fact that one set of grandparents gets a lot more time with the baby than the others. But if someone insists on photos of them being deleted, there's not much you can do.

What about the grandfather who's married to the step-mother? If there are photographs of him and the baby, shouldn't he get an album? From the letter, I assume there are photographs of him or the letter writer probably would've mentioned it.
Title: Re: When the camera shy feel left out
Post by: TylerBelle on February 21, 2013, 08:13:44 PM
In attending gatherings with school activities, I've taken my camera to get some shots to remember the occasion. There would be someone there who'd avoid the camera with, "Oh no! There she is with a camera again, don't take my picture!" Then when I'd bring the developed pictures around, they'd be all, "Why aren't there very many of me?"

While that attitude can be frustrating, as with the story, though here I'd think it would have been best while getting the pictures together for the album and plan on giving/showing it around and there was a chance the stepmother was to see the album, to have taken the high road and stop and ask her to let's get a picture. If she refused, then it'd been on her.
Title: Re: When the camera shy feel left out
Post by: Ceallach on February 21, 2013, 08:50:33 PM
I think the key point here is that the SM is essentially asking for special treatment.    The couple are in no way required to oblige her snowflakiness.

Why should the couple have to go to the effort of consulting her to arrange a special photo shoot to go into the album?   If I were a relative, would I prefer to have a special photo taken and to approve it as a good shot of me to be used in the fancy album?  Yes, I would.  I'm not camera shy (I looove photos) but I do like to have good photos if possible.  I'd love it if the one in the book was a good shot.  So I'd probably be a little irritated if the person who makes a fuss gets to arrange a photo specially, while the rest of us just have any old photo selected.  I'd still be happy to be included, but it would seem they were being rewarded for their fussiness.    And of course it's unreasonable to expect the couple to go out of their way to get "special" approved photos of everybody to use.  That would turn a lovely, heartwarming idea into a massive undertaking.   It's a shame that SM's fussy camera shy behaviour has resulted in her exclusion, but as it clearly wasn't intentional on the part of the couple I don't think she has any right to complain.  Feel hurt, yes, but complain no.
Title: Re: When the camera shy feel left out
Post by: blarg314 on February 21, 2013, 09:36:51 PM

What about the grandfather who's married to the step-mother? If there are photographs of him and the baby, shouldn't he get an album? From the letter, I assume there are photographs of him or the letter writer probably would've mentioned it.

The letter says that the grandfather was also angry about the photo album, on his wife's behalf.  If the photo album upsets him that much, he doesn't need to get one. They could send copies of individual photos to them, but not the formatted album.

Title: Re: When the camera shy feel left out
Post by: TurtleDove on February 21, 2013, 10:30:22 PM
Not to veer too far off topic, but in my experience, normal people grasp that some photos don't show them in their best light.  Anyone who is facebook friends with me can verify this! The thing that is so odd to me is that some people both only want fabulous shots of themselves and also don't allow very many shots of themselves. If you want to look good in photos, take more of them. And if the issue is that you don't like how you look...that isn't about the photo.
Title: Re: When the camera shy feel left out
Post by: Alias on February 22, 2013, 08:33:50 AM
My mother tried this one recently.  We have a bunch of photos up in our kitchen of kids with family.  My mother stood in front of them, pointed out my father, my brother, my aunt etc in the photos and asked 'where am I? Why isn't there one of me?'  I bluntly told her she doesn't like having her photo taken, and complains when we do, so where was I going to get a photo?  The next time I took out my camera for some photos, she didn't complain!
Title: Re: When the camera shy feel left out
Post by: Winterlight on February 22, 2013, 09:36:28 AM
The actions of everyone in the letter make me wonder how forceful and demanding SM is about deleting the photos. I'm picturing a situation where a flash goes off and she's immediately asking to review, then spends a minute looking at it and demands that it be deleted without any regard to anyone else. I have a friend like that, and it gets exhausting.

If that's the case, I don't blame the LW and her husband for not wanting to ask for a picture or give the SM the opportunity to take photos. It's their child - if they don't have any pictures of SM with the baby, it's entirely possible there actually aren't any. And allowing her to take one to submit would likely turn into a hours-long process with her reviewing every. Single. Shot. Taken.

I agree that it probably would have been nicer for the LW to inform SM that they didn't have any pics of her for the book, and find out if she wanted to give them one, but I understand why they didn't.

That's how I was reading it too- that she insists on looking and reviewing each and every photo and rejecting them based on flaws only she sees.
Title: Re: When the camera shy feel left out
Post by: bah12 on February 22, 2013, 09:40:41 AM
I think the key point here is that the SM is essentially asking for special treatment.    The couple are in no way required to oblige her snowflakiness.

Why should the couple have to go to the effort of consulting her to arrange a special photo shoot to go into the album?   If I were a relative, would I prefer to have a special photo taken and to approve it as a good shot of me to be used in the fancy album?  Yes, I would.  I'm not camera shy (I looove photos) but I do like to have good photos if possible.  I'd love it if the one in the book was a good shot.  So I'd probably be a little irritated if the person who makes a fuss gets to arrange a photo specially, while the rest of us just have any old photo selected.  I'd still be happy to be included, but it would seem they were being rewarded for their fussiness.    And of course it's unreasonable to expect the couple to go out of their way to get "special" approved photos of everybody to use.  That would turn a lovely, heartwarming idea into a massive undertaking.   It's a shame that SM's fussy camera shy behaviour has resulted in her exclusion, but as it clearly wasn't intentional on the part of the couple I don't think she has any right to complain.  Feel hurt, yes, but complain no.

I don't really think they need to go as far as arranging a special photo shoot, but I do think it would be considerate to at least ask her if she has any pictures, or if they could take some (assuming that it takes a while to put these albums together and that the parents will see SM between deciding to do it and giving it to her) so that they could include her.

For me, the key in this whole thing is that this album was a gift...for the SM.  She might be an SS about random candid pictures and she might have been out of line to complain about a gift, but it was still a gift for her.  She didn't intentionally leave herself out of anything.  The album was not a consideration at the time.  Had the parents stated they were taking pictures for an album and she refused to be in any of them, it would be different.  Had the parents created the album for themselves, it would also be different.  But, to decide that they were going to create an album and give it to SM as a gift, then not even consider that she might want to be included in it, is insensitive.  At the least, they should consider what enjoyment she would get out of the gift before deciding to give it.  It seems more that they just didn't care, and whether that's because she's a generally difficult person to begin with or they didn't want to go through the effort, is immaterial. 
Title: Re: When the camera shy feel left out
Post by: TurtleDove on February 22, 2013, 09:48:51 AM
I don't really think they need to go as far as arranging a special photo shoot, but I do think it would be considerate to at least ask her if she has any pictures, or if they could take some (assuming that it takes a while to put these albums together and that the parents will see SM between deciding to do it and giving it to her) so that they could include her.

For me, the key in this whole thing is that this album was a gift...for the SM.  She might be an SS about random candid pictures and she might have been out of line to complain about a gift, but it was still a gift for her.  She didn't intentionally leave herself out of anything.  The album was not a consideration at the time.  Had the parents stated they were taking pictures for an album and she refused to be in any of them, it would be different.  Had the parents created the album for themselves, it would also be different.  But, to decide that they were going to create an album and give it to SM as a gift, then not even consider that she might want to be included in it, is insensitive.  At the least, they should consider what enjoyment she would get out of the gift before deciding to give it.  It seems more that they just didn't care, and whether that's because she's a generally difficult person to begin with or they didn't want to go through the effort, is immaterial.

The bolded is what I think we are never going to agree on. The LW already did ask the SM to be in photos and the SM declined.  That is why there are no photos.  The SM actively asked not to have her photos either taken or saved.  And the gift was for the childs grandfather who is married to the SM.  Yes, the SM is one of the recipients, but it wasn't a gift created specifically and uniquely for her.
Title: Re: When the camera shy feel left out
Post by: bah12 on February 22, 2013, 10:21:03 AM
I don't really think they need to go as far as arranging a special photo shoot, but I do think it would be considerate to at least ask her if she has any pictures, or if they could take some (assuming that it takes a while to put these albums together and that the parents will see SM between deciding to do it and giving it to her) so that they could include her.

For me, the key in this whole thing is that this album was a gift...for the SM.  She might be an SS about random candid pictures and she might have been out of line to complain about a gift, but it was still a gift for her.  She didn't intentionally leave herself out of anything.  The album was not a consideration at the time.  Had the parents stated they were taking pictures for an album and she refused to be in any of them, it would be different.  Had the parents created the album for themselves, it would also be different.  But, to decide that they were going to create an album and give it to SM as a gift, then not even consider that she might want to be included in it, is insensitive.  At the least, they should consider what enjoyment she would get out of the gift before deciding to give it.  It seems more that they just didn't care, and whether that's because she's a generally difficult person to begin with or they didn't want to go through the effort, is immaterial.

The bolded is what I think we are never going to agree on. The LW already did ask the SM to be in photos and the SM declined.  That is why there are no photos.  The SM actively asked not to have her photos either taken or saved.  And the gift was for the childs grandfather who is married to the SM.  Yes, the SM is one of the recipients, but it wasn't a gift created specifically and uniquely for her.

Yes it was...maybe not uniquely for her but specifically for all the grandparents...which includes her.  And the Grandfather was also upset that his wife wasn't included.  So, he didn't really get a whole lot of enjoyment out of the gift either.  SS or not, when you (general) give gifts, you should consider how those gifts will make the recipients feel.  And the parents didn't consider that.  It may not have been a purposeful slight, but when it came to giving this gift, they failed.   Yes, the SM is at fault that there weren't already pictures for them to choose from, but I think that the parents then needed to either ask for some so they could include her or consider a different gift all together...like maybe a simple framed photograph of the baby alone.
Title: Re: When the camera shy feel left out
Post by: camlan on February 22, 2013, 10:23:08 AM
I could make an album of pictures of my nieces and nephews right now. It would take less than 15 minutes--deciding which pictures to include would take the majority of that time.

So I can see this couple deciding to make the album, choosing the pictures and realizing that there are no pictures of SGM with the baby. They think about it, and decide that since SGM has chosen to delete all the pictures they have ever taken of her with the baby, that she probably won't care if there are no pictures of her with the baby in the album, and just moving on to finish the project. No time, really, for contacting the SGM and asking for special pictures to be taken. The whole thing, from idea to execution, could have taken less than an hour.

At least, that would be my thought process. That SGM was so picky about her pictures, and since the album was going to several people, not just SGM and GF, that she probably wouldn't want her picture in the album anyway, because so many people could potentially see her pictures, and since there were some pictures of the baby with his/her grandfather, that should be enough to keep that set of grandparents happy.

When the step-grandmother complained, I'd explain my thinking, express my sorrow that her feelings were hurt, tell her it was not intentional, and promise to take more pictures of her with the baby in the future, in case I made another album.

And then I'd expect the issue to die out. If either SGM or GF continued to bring the subject up, I'd get annoyed. SGM made her bed, by deleting all her pictures. She doesn't get to guilt trip me for the consequences of her own actions. I'd defend my actions once, "Since SGM deletes every picture I've taken of her with the baby, it is a logical conclusion that she does not want anyone to have or see such a picture," and then I'd drop the subject. And refuse to engage any further discussion about it.

I really don't think the parents of the baby did anything wrong. All the SGM's actions would have led them to think that the SGM didn't want any pictures of her with the baby, and certainly, if she was that camera shy, would not want her picture in an album that was given to a number of other people. I think the SGM and GF are more in the wrong by pursuing the issue and not letting it drop, once they heard the couple's explanation.
Title: Re: When the camera shy feel left out
Post by: TurtleDove on February 22, 2013, 10:25:04 AM
Yes it was...maybe not uniquely for her but specifically for all the grandparents...which includes her.  And the Grandfather was also upset that his wife wasn't included.  So, he didn't really get a whole lot of enjoyment out of the gift either.  SS or not, when you (general) give gifts, you should consider how those gifts will make the recipients feel.  And the parents didn't consider that.  It may not have been a purposeful slight, but when it came to giving this gift, they failed.   Yes, the SM is at fault that there weren't already pictures for them to choose from, but I think that the parents then needed to either ask for some so they could include her or consider a different gift all together...like maybe a simple framed photograph of the baby alone.

This is where we disagree.  The way I see it, the parents DID consider what the SM wanted.  She said she didn't want her photo taken/saved.  She apparently later changed her mind, but I think the parents respected her stated wishes and had no reason to question whether those wishes changed. 

Title: Re: When the camera shy feel left out
Post by: johelenc1 on February 22, 2013, 10:36:09 AM
I think step-mother needs to realize she can't have it both ways.  However, I would have found "some" picture of step-mother, however awful - even if it wasn't with the granddaughter - to include in the book.  I would have done this more for the child's sake than the SM.  The child will probably enjoy the book in the future and should have a picture of all her grandparents.

I do strongly believe however that if they had put a picture of the SM in the book, she would have whined and complained about how awful it was.

Title: Re: When the camera shy feel left out
Post by: TurtleDove on February 22, 2013, 10:47:04 AM
I make a book for my daughter's grandparents and cousins every year.  None of the grandparents or cousins are in the book.  It is a book about my daughter.  It is very much enjoyed by the recipients even though there are no photos of them in it.  I enjoy photos of people I love also, even though I am not in the photos. 
Title: Re: When the camera shy feel left out
Post by: bah12 on February 22, 2013, 12:38:07 PM
I make a book for my daughter's grandparents and cousins every year.  None of the grandparents or cousins are in the book.  It is a book about my daughter.  It is very much enjoyed by the recipients even though there are no photos of them in it.  I enjoy photos of people I love also, even though I am not in the photos.

I think it's fine if none of them are in...or even if some of them are in it randomly.  But, if you left out one cousin and one cousin only and then gave that book as a gift, I wouldn't blame the cousin at all for feeling left out.

Title: Re: When the camera shy feel left out
Post by: Knitterly on February 22, 2013, 12:49:04 PM
I make a book for my daughter's grandparents and cousins every year.  None of the grandparents or cousins are in the book.  It is a book about my daughter.  It is very much enjoyed by the recipients even though there are no photos of them in it.  I enjoy photos of people I love also, even though I am not in the photos.

I think it's fine if none of them are in...or even if some of them are in it randomly.  But, if you left out one cousin and one cousin only and then gave that book as a gift, I wouldn't blame the cousin at all for feeling left out.

Perhaps not, but if the cousin is overly camera shy and deletes all the pictures you take of them because they dislike them, they hardly have a foot to stand on in feeling left out.

Feelings are feelings and often do not respond to logic.  But the fact remains that if you have no pictures, you have no pictures.

If the pictures are from birth to 1 year and you start putting the book together at 1 year and a month, then the cousin is simply out of luck.  Perhaps they did not make time to visit.  Perhaps they refused to have their picture taken when they did.  You cannot turn back time and to take pictures of a moment that is gone.

We all have rights to our feelings.  Those feelings, though, are not always reasonable.

Does the stepmother feel left out?  Absolutely!  Is it reasonable given the circumstances of her difficulty in the pictures?  Not at all.
Title: Re: When the camera shy feel left out
Post by: bah12 on February 22, 2013, 01:34:25 PM
I make a book for my daughter's grandparents and cousins every year.  None of the grandparents or cousins are in the book.  It is a book about my daughter.  It is very much enjoyed by the recipients even though there are no photos of them in it.  I enjoy photos of people I love also, even though I am not in the photos.

I think it's fine if none of them are in...or even if some of them are in it randomly.  But, if you left out one cousin and one cousin only and then gave that book as a gift, I wouldn't blame the cousin at all for feeling left out.

Perhaps not, but if the cousin is overly camera shy and deletes all the pictures you take of them because they dislike them, they hardly have a foot to stand on in feeling left out.

Feelings are feelings and often do not respond to logic.  But the fact remains that if you have no pictures, you have no pictures.

If the pictures are from birth to 1 year and you start putting the book together at 1 year and a month, then the cousin is simply out of luck.  Perhaps they did not make time to visit.  Perhaps they refused to have their picture taken when they did.  You cannot turn back time and to take pictures of a moment that is gone.

We all have rights to our feelings.  Those feelings, though, are not always reasonable.

Does the stepmother feel left out?  Absolutely!  Is it reasonable given the circumstances of her difficulty in the pictures?  Not at all.

Ok...then perhaps a photo album full of family photos that include everyone but the "camera shy" one is not the best idea. 

If you (general) want a photo album about your baby, then make one.  But when you decide to make a photo album about anyone and give it as a gift, it is only thoughtful (IMO) if the photo album is also about the person it is actually for.  Not that they have to be in pictures to enjoy them, but those memories should connect somehow.  Love of a baby or the reminder of moments with the baby.  This particular photo albom included the baby with grandparents and great-grandparents.  It's an awesome idea on the surface.  But, if it's about the baby and grandparent relationship, then leaving out one grandparent isn't cool (even if that grandparent is really difficult about candid pictures that were taken without an album in mind).

Not only do I think she has the right to feel left out, I think it's justified.  To make it worse, the parents don't even want to say "Hey, I'm sorry.  I didn't do it on purpose, I just thought that you didn't like being in pictures and didn't have one of you.  I'll let you know next time." 

In other words, I can forgive the exclusion given the circumstances, but not when they continue to feel justified to 'teach SM a lesson' about pictures (my words, not theirs).  If they didn't want to take the trouble to ask for a picture befor hand (which I think is the best thing to do), the least they can do validate her feelings, give an explanation, and try to make it good on the next album.
Title: Re: When the camera shy feel left out
Post by: TurtleDove on February 22, 2013, 01:39:37 PM
Ok...then perhaps a photo album full of family photos that include everyone but the "camera shy" one is not the best idea. 


I think it's a great idea!  Photo albums and framed photos are among my favorite gifts to give and receive, and their value to me increases as time goes on.  I think it would be sad if the LW stopped doing the photo books becasue the SM complained.
Title: Re: When the camera shy feel left out
Post by: Venus193 on February 22, 2013, 02:16:30 PM
I could make an album of pictures of my nieces and nephews right now. It would take less than 15 minutes--deciding which pictures to include would take the majority of that time.

So I can see this couple deciding to make the album, choosing the pictures and realizing that there are no pictures of SGM with the baby. They think about it, and decide that since SGM has chosen to delete all the pictures they have ever taken of her with the baby, that she probably won't care if there are no pictures of her with the baby in the album, and just moving on to finish the project. No time, really, for contacting the SGM and asking for special pictures to be taken. The whole thing, from idea to execution, could have taken less than an hour.

At least, that would be my thought process. That SGM was so picky about her pictures, and since the album was going to several people, not just SGM and GF, that she probably wouldn't want her picture in the album anyway, because so many people could potentially see her pictures, and since there were some pictures of the baby with his/her grandfather, that should be enough to keep that set of grandparents happy.

When the step-grandmother complained, I'd explain my thinking, express my sorrow that her feelings were hurt, tell her it was not intentional, and promise to take more pictures of her with the baby in the future, in case I made another album.

And then I'd expect the issue to die out. If either SGM or GF continued to bring the subject up, I'd get annoyed. SGM made her bed, by deleting all her pictures. She doesn't get to guilt trip me for the consequences of her own actions. I'd defend my actions once, "Since SGM deletes every picture I've taken of her with the baby, it is a logical conclusion that she does not want anyone to have or see such a picture," and then I'd drop the subject. And refuse to engage any further discussion about it.

I really don't think the parents of the baby did anything wrong. All the SGM's actions would have led them to think that the SGM didn't want any pictures of her with the baby, and certainly, if she was that camera shy, would not want her picture in an album that was given to a number of other people. I think the SGM and GF are more in the wrong by pursuing the issue and not letting it drop, once they heard the couple's explanation.

Your assumption is completely reasonable; I totally agree.  Also with jolenc's comment that she can't have it both ways.
Title: Re: When the camera shy feel left out
Post by: Miss Unleaded on February 22, 2013, 02:41:21 PM
Actions have consequences.  If I were the stepmother, I would feel hurt, but i would also recognize that the situation was of my own making.    I don't think the couple were rude assuming they at least attempted to find a photo in their collection.

Personally I have no patience for the camera shy (despite being terribly un photogenic myself!) and frequently find camera shy behavior to actually and ironically be attention seeking.  I will always respect their wishes, but I'm not going to go out of my way to pander to them.

If only more camera wielding people were like this, I would be happy.  Honestly, I dislike having my photo taken when I am trying to relax and have fun, and I hate even more the scene that often accompanies when the person with the camera won't respect 'no'.  I would not at all be unhappy if there was nary a single family album with my picture in it.

The step mother in this letter was completely unreasonable.  She can't have it both ways.  The advice was way off, in my opinion.
Title: Re: When the camera shy feel left out
Post by: mmswm on February 22, 2013, 03:00:11 PM
I hate having my picture taken, and might even be a bit SS about avoiding the camera.

Occasionally, when I look through photo albums I get a bit sad that there are no pictures of me.

Then I put on my big girl panties and remind myself that the reason there are no pictures of me is because I actively avoided having my picture taken.  Too bad for me.  I made a choice, I have to live with the consequences.

I have no sympathy for the SM. 
Title: Re: When the camera shy feel left out
Post by: EllenS on February 22, 2013, 04:09:13 PM
This topic reminded me of a lovely article by Allison Tate that went viral last year - "The Mom Stays in the Picture".

"When I look at pictures of my own mother, I don't look at cellulite or hair debacles. I just see her -- her kind eyes, her open-mouthed, joyful smile, her familiar clothes. That's the mother I remember. My mother's body is the vessel that carries all the memories of my childhood. I always loved that her stomach was soft, her skin freckled, her fingers long. I didn't care that she didn't look like a model. She was my mama.

So when all is said and done, if I can't do it for myself, I want to do it for my kids. I want to be in the picture, to give them that visual memory of me. I want them to see how much I am here, how my body looks wrapped around them in a hug, how loved they are."

This article made me cry and I now have all kinds of pictures of me looking disheveled but happy.  My mom died 3 years ago and she was always miserable having her picture taken.  I do have 2 or 3 photos of her genuinely smiling.  She did not smile much the last 10 years of her life, and she wasted away so much the last month she was nearly unrecognizable.  Those 2 or 3 photos are unbelievably precious, because it is hard for me to remember her being happy.

The article is here: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/allison-tate/mom-pictures-with-kids_b_1926073.html
Title: Re: When the camera shy feel left out
Post by: MariaE on February 23, 2013, 01:43:03 AM
I hate having my picture taken, and might even be a bit SS about avoiding the camera.

Occasionally, when I look through photo albums I get a bit sad that there are no pictures of me.

Then I put on my big girl panties and remind myself that the reason there are no pictures of me is because I actively avoided having my picture taken.  Too bad for me.  I made a choice, I have to live with the consequences.

I have no sympathy for the SM.

This was me when I was younger. I'm the unphotogenic one in a family of beauties... My three sisters especially. I never wanted my photo taken, because I hated the way I looked.

I still don't like having my photo taken, but I've made a conscious decision to "grin and bear it" because I know that years down the line no photos will bug me more than bad photos.
Title: Re: When the camera shy feel left out
Post by: sammycat on February 24, 2013, 09:12:27 PM
Personally I have no patience for the camera shy (despite being terribly un photogenic myself!) and frequently find camera shy behavior to actually and ironically be attention seeking.  I will always respect their wishes, but I'm not going to go out of my way to pander to them.

This is the way I feel about it.  In this situation, I don't really understand why the SM both 1) does not want her photo taken but 2) is upset that her photo is not in a book to be shown to others.  I think both are attention seeking behavior. And again, this is a BABY book.  Not a SM book.

I agree with both these posts.
Title: Re: When the camera shy feel left out
Post by: Bookgirl on February 25, 2013, 11:21:27 AM
This topic reminded me of a lovely article by Allison Tate that went viral last year - "The Mom Stays in the Picture".

"When I look at pictures of my own mother, I don't look at cellulite or hair debacles. I just see her -- her kind eyes, her open-mouthed, joyful smile, her familiar clothes. That's the mother I remember. My mother's body is the vessel that carries all the memories of my childhood. I always loved that her stomach was soft, her skin freckled, her fingers long. I didn't care that she didn't look like a model. She was my mama.

So when all is said and done, if I can't do it for myself, I want to do it for my kids. I want to be in the picture, to give them that visual memory of me. I want them to see how much I am here, how my body looks wrapped around them in a hug, how loved they are."

This article made me cry and I now have all kinds of pictures of me looking disheveled but happy.  My mom died 3 years ago and she was always miserable having her picture taken.  I do have 2 or 3 photos of her genuinely smiling.  She did not smile much the last 10 years of her life, and she wasted away so much the last month she was nearly unrecognizable.  Those 2 or 3 photos are unbelievably precious, because it is hard for me to remember her being happy.

The article is here: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/allison-tate/mom-pictures-with-kids_b_1926073.html

Thanks!  I wanted to post about this but couldn't remember where I had read it.  I read this a few months ago and it really stuck with me.  I've never been one to not be in pictures with my kids but I did judge myself harshly in the resulting photos.  This article really made me rethink that because it made me realize how I view photos of my own mom from when I was growing up.  I don't see her weight or her funny hair style.  I see *my* mom.  The woman who loves me and taught me how to be the kind of mom I want to be.  I want that feeling for my kids as well.  I want them to look at pictures from their childhood and think "that's *my* mom".