Etiquette Hell

General Etiquette => Family and Children => Topic started by: snappylt on February 27, 2013, 11:29:38 PM

Title: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: snappylt on February 27, 2013, 11:29:38 PM
I was reading elsewhere about young adults sometimes not understanding appropriate clothing for certain occasions and it reminded me of a (true) story I want to share here.  (Question of sorts at the end.)

One of my sons is a young adult who seems to often have to learn things through experience directly, the hard way, as he is very advice-resistant.  I have learned the hard way with this son to be very careful about ever offering advice, as he often interprets advice being offered to mean that I am implying that he is stupid...

Fall semester of this son's senior year of high school he applied for a very well-known, prestigious college scholarship program.  The evening before the in-person interview for the scholarship I took a risk and asked my son if he was considering dressing up for the interviews.  He said that the letter inviting him to the interview mentioned dressing in "Sunday best," so he was going to wear what he himself wears to church on Sundays.

Well, my son had found a different church to attend, a very "laid back and casual" church where the teenagers wear t-shirts and jeans to church, so that is how he planned to dress for his interview.  I decided to risk his anger, and I volunteered that I wondered if the "Sunday best" in the letter might be what an "older person" would think of as "Sunday best".  (Trust me here - I'm being vague to protect privacy - considering the particular scholarship program I'm talking about, I know the writer of the letter meant "Sunday best" in an old fashioned way.)

Well, my son bristled at the unsolicited advice, but he did decide to wear a t-shirt and khaki slacks instead of a t-shirt and blue jeans the next day.

I drove him to his interviews the next morning.  The building where the interviews were held was full of young adults.  All of the boys except for my son and one other were wearing dress shirts and ties (and many wore sport coats, too).  My son and one other boy were the only boys in t-shirts.

I kept my mouth firmly shut (regarding clothing, anyway).

After a few minutes my son leaned over and whispered, "I wish I'd worn a shirt and tie."

I made a non-committal reply and changed the subject.

On the ride home, my son said he thought his interviews went very well, but he volunteered that he'd learned a lesson about dressing better for interviews.  I just agreed with him quietly.


My question is: Do others have similar stories to share about young adults having to learn what to do and how to behave through experience?
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way
Post by: Katana_Geldar on February 28, 2013, 01:13:20 AM
Onya, snappy! He's got to learn the hard way sooner or later.

My one is about my younger sister. She was starting a new job and one of her coworkers was a girl who I had classes with. YS says that she was nice, but I'd known her longer and I said that she's nice to your face and then turns around and is very nasty once she knows you.

YS said that would never happen to her. I said nothing, then a month later YS came back to me and said I was right!

Funny thing about this girl is that her older sister was one of the nicest people I met. Shame her younger sister was two-faced.
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way
Post by: cicero on February 28, 2013, 01:14:32 AM
wait -but did he get the scholarship?
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way
Post by: TootsNYC on February 28, 2013, 08:09:38 AM
I don't remember being "advice averse," but I do remember my mom doing this:

Quote
I kept my mouth firmly shut (regarding clothing, anyway).

After a few minutes my son leaned over and whispered, "I wish I'd worn a shirt and tie."

I made a non-committal reply and changed the subject.

On the ride home, my son said he thought his interviews went very well, but he volunteered that he'd learned a lesson about dressing better for interviews.  I just agreed with him quietly.

So now I wonder--maybe I *was* pricklier than I remember.

Those lessons are the ones that stick, aren't they?

And boy it's hard w/ advice and young adults, right?
There's something in the adolescent mindset/development that says, "all those old fogey rules are stupid."

I think sometimes that our best bet is to just insist from the very beginning so that things like "dressing up for church / interviews / dinner at a friend's house" become something that they do just because--and it "feels wrong" when they don't do it.

Of course, that means *I* have to dress up for dinner at a friend's house.
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way
Post by: bopper on February 28, 2013, 08:22:04 AM
That is probably when I would have said "Throw a dressier outfit in the car just in case".
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way
Post by: Piratelvr1121 on February 28, 2013, 08:31:58 AM
My mother used to get so exasperated when she'd give me advice and then when someone else gave the same advice but worded in a better way (meaning not condescending and from an adult I admittedly had more respect for) I'd listen. 

My father's two sisters were great for talking to their nieces and nephews with respect.  You never felt like they were talking down to you at all, you were never made to feel stupid and actually most of the time they were able to get kids to come to a solution on their own by saying things like "Well what do you think would be the best way to handle that situation?" Or "What might the outcome be if it was done that way?" or "How do you feel that was handled?" And they'd actually listen. 

I do think the lessons I learned the hard way were the ones that stuck.  (I also learned that about 1/2 the time my mother's advice was wrong.)
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way
Post by: Virg on February 28, 2013, 08:38:54 AM
I agree with bopper on this one.  I'd have tossed in a "dress up to dress down" suggestion, saying that if he put on a dress shirt over the t-shirt he could always remove it if he felt overdressed.  I might even have put said shirt and a tie in the car and then offered it if he mentioned it.  In general, though, I've found that there are some people who must learn things for themselves.  It's more common for that to show up during teen years, but I've seen it in all ages, so the only thing you can do is politely suggest and then step back and let them go through it themselves.  In the OP's situation, I'd rather let him go in with street clothes than fight him on it, knowing that the next ten times will be a little easier for not dying on this particular hill.

Virg
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way
Post by: Cami on February 28, 2013, 09:12:04 AM
My (much younger) BIL was like that. Ugh. It was so hard to watch him make wrong choice after wrong choice, solely because he was determined to either make his own decisions and/or do the opposite of what his parents told him to do. He was about 25 when he finally woke up and stopped being so contrary. His life improved greatly once he did so.
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way
Post by: kymom3 on February 28, 2013, 09:18:00 AM
DS3 and his Scout troop are camping this weekend.  A mom of one of the younger boys asked DS3 and one of the other youth leaders to talk to her son about the importance of getting some hiking boots.  Younger boy has been resistant and insisted to his mother that he could wear his tennis shoes or whatever.  They are planning a pretty big hike for Saturday and everyone needs appropriate footwear!  DS3 took younger boy aside and spoke to him and younger boy came to his mom and told her that they needed to go shopping!   Mom said that she knew her son would listen to my son and other older boy even when she had tried to tell him the same thing.   ;)
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way
Post by: bloo on February 28, 2013, 10:02:19 AM
My DD! Went on a hike a couple of years ago and she insisted she'd be fine wearing flip-flops. I told her that a hike really needs better footwear but no, what do I know? I only have 25 years more experience.

On the way home she did admit that sneakers, at least, would've been a better option. Her feet were sore!

I tread lightly around her, like OP. If it even smacks of 'do this, I know better' she will do the opposite. If I make a suggestion and give the reason why, she'll pause and listen and may make provision that my suggestion makes sense.

Treading lightly has helped as she has (gasp) started asking for a little advice here and there!
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way
Post by: NyaChan on February 28, 2013, 10:10:43 AM
DS3 and his Scout troop are camping this weekend.  A mom of one of the younger boys asked DS3 and one of the other youth leaders to talk to her son about the importance of getting some hiking boots.  Younger boy has been resistant and insisted to his mother that he could wear his tennis shoes or whatever.  They are planning a pretty big hike for Saturday and everyone needs appropriate footwear!  DS3 took younger boy aside and spoke to him and younger boy came to his mom and told her that they needed to go shopping!   Mom said that she knew her son would listen to my son and other older boy even when she had tried to tell him the same thing.   ;)

I don't know if 27 counts as young adult...but we are trying this approach with a student I am coaching.  She won't listen to even our practitioner coach, let alone us student coaches as to appropriate courtroom attire.  So we've asked any outside people coming in to help judge or play jury to please address professionalism and courtroom attire as part of their critique.  Sure enough, they all independently pointed out that bright red high heels aren't a good choice for competition.  Hasn't worked yet, but we will keep trying. 
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way
Post by: Promise on February 28, 2013, 10:20:29 AM
At this point, they are about to leave for college. Don't you know yet that they know everything?? (Being sarcastic of course!) You are doing exactly the right thing by allowing the gift of failing. If he doesn't get the scholarship because of how he dressed, it's a huge life lesson that he will learn so much more than by you giving him advice about how to dress. Yes, he'd be wiser to listen to you, but that's not his bent. Kudos to you for allowing him to experience real life!

Now as to the letter, they should have known better in this day how to word their expectations. "Sunday Best" means many different things. My husband is a pastor and asked our laid back congregation to dress up for Christmas Sunday. He asked this in a nice way and put it in a context that made sense for the request. He didn't put any demands on what "best" meant, but the intent was that you come differently than you usually do. Like your son, those who were the shorts and flip flop people came in slacks and polos or nice tees. Those who are the polo/khaki people came in dress shirts. The dress shirt people came in suits. If the intent was to wear a button down shirt/tie or a skirt/dress, they should have said so in the letter.

As a person who hired 45 college students a year for an AmeriCorps program, I took notice as to how students dressed for interviews. I had one man who wore flip flops, shorts and an old tee to an interview. That said a lot to me. He didn't care about getting the job. Maybe he did, but he certainly didn't care about how he looked to me. If he didn't care about the interview what would lead me to think he'd care about doing the job well? I didn't hire him. He contacted me as to why. I was honest and he shot me back an response saying all kinds of nasty things about me judgmental attitude. Look, when I have 150 applicants for 45 slots, I can choose to be picky and I look at the nonverbal as well as the resume.
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way
Post by: Redneck Gravy on February 28, 2013, 10:22:51 AM
I could have my own newspaper column with young adults learning the hard way...Sometimes I think it is just the argument they like. 

I drove my younger daughter and I (in her car) to visit a college.  I drove with the headlights on even during daylight hours.  At one point she said, "turn my lights off, it wastes the battery".  I said, "no it doesn't, where did you hear that?"  She said, "well I think it does"  I said, "well it doesn't and you sound ignorant when you make a comment like that and then try to argue about it when you don't really know"   

I borrowed the space heater out of her bathroom (mine gave up the ghost of working) and when I returned it I plugged it back in.  She said, "don't plug my heater in, it wastes electricity"  I said "how does it waste electricity if it isn't on?  It doesn't have a display or anything?  Where did you hear that?"  She said, "an electrician told me that"   Hmmm, where does she know an electrician?  It can't waste any more electricity than the washer, dryer, blender, can opener, curling iron being plugged in - if they don't have a screen/display or other light when not turned on.  Not worth the argument.   

She brings home her practice jersey for basketball on a Friday afternoon and I said throw it in the laundry room and I will wash it.  She said, "we aren't supposed to wash them"  >:(    "I am certain that NO COACH told you not to wash your basketball jersey.  Just thrown the darn thing in the laundry room and stop arguing with me!"  She still wanted to argue - but about that time the glare from my eyes hit her eyes and she beat a hasty retreat.    Agghh - can you imagine how that was going to smell in a week???   ::)

Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way
Post by: Zilla on February 28, 2013, 10:27:05 AM
My oldest is advice resistant and love to give unsolicited advice, so a double whammy.  I often have to say it in a vague way to dd like you did in the OP.  And many a times she will tell me afterwards but huh maybe I was right after all.  I tell her it isn't a matter of being right, just have been through it and then I change the subject.


Now my youngest dd is the opposite, she listens well and won't speak up unless she knows the answer for sure.  And has pissed off her older sister saying, "Didn't mom tell you..." lol  I have to tell my youngest to please back off her sister even though I know she means well.  And youngest always tells me, "But you are MOM!  You know everything!  Why is she being so stubborn?"  I only hope youngest doesn't outgrow that!
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way
Post by: WillyNilly on February 28, 2013, 10:35:27 AM
I borrowed the space heater out of her bathroom (mine gave up the ghost of working) and when I returned it I plugged it back in.  She said, "don't plug my heater in, it wastes electricity"  I said "how does it waste electricity if it isn't on?  It doesn't have a display or anything?  Where did you hear that?"  She said, "an electrician told me that"   Hmmm, where does she know an electrician?  It can't waste any more electricity than the washer, dryer, blender, can opener, curling iron being plugged in - if they don't have a screen/display or other light when not turned on.  Not worth the argument.   


Actually a lot of appliances do waste electricity simply by being left plugged in, even if they don't have displays. Its usually not significant in an individual household, but its not non-existent.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/11/science/11qna.html?_r=0
http://www.dailyfinance.com/2011/06/20/12-household-appliances-you-should-unplug-to-save-money/
http://peninsulapress.com/2011/03/30/leaving-idle-appliances-plugged-in-drives-up-power-bills-which-devices-are-worst-offenders/
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2851/am-i-really-wasting-money-leaving-appliances-plugged-in
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way
Post by: seriously? on February 28, 2013, 10:51:58 AM
It's REALLY REALLY hard to watch (and let) your child make a mistake. But I agree with the other posters that it is a life lesson that will certainly  make an impact.  My DS is 22, and I struggled with that for a long time... it's part of raising an independent responsible person!
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way
Post by: Virg on February 28, 2013, 11:59:40 AM
WillyNilly wrote:

"Actually a lot of appliances do waste electricity simply by being left plugged in, even if they don't have displays. Its usually not significant in an individual household, but its not non-existent."

This is true, Redneck Gravy, but at the same time your example is also true.  A device doesn't have to have a display or other visible power draw to consume power when it's off (many TVs don't have any indication that they're in standby mode, for example), because most of the devices that draw "vampire power" either use a standby current to maintain a ready state or a transformer of some kind (it's both in the case of a big screen TV).  However, a space heater is unlikely to use either of those things so you're most likely right about that example.  Check out the links that WillyNilly provided, but the two tempering comments I'll make are that the Straight Dope link gives a telling number (which is that the average cost for a given household is around ten dollars a year) and that some of the suggestions don't make a lot of sense.  One article suggests unplugging lamps, and I can't think of any lamp except the old touch-on lamps from the 1980s that draw standby power, so it would serve everyone to read the articles with a critical eye.

As a side note, driving with the headlights on at all times won't waste battery power because the battery doesn't run the car while the engine is running, the alternator does.  But (don't tell her!) it will very slightly reduce your gas mileage.  I do it because the safety factor offsets the energy loss, but it does have an effect.

For the jersey, I'd be tempted to let her win that one.  When her coach or a teammate (or maybe a crush) tells her she stinks, she'll never forget to put it in the wash again.  I think that's just about a perfect example of letting her learn the lesson the hard way.

Virg
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way
Post by: Lynn2000 on February 28, 2013, 01:37:11 PM
Some people just have to learn through trial-and-error, I've found--thinking mostly of college students I work with (who I guess could be considered young adults) but also somewhat older people, 30+. To avoid seeming all "do it because I told you to," and also because I would not claim I am right 100% of the time, I often just mention a doubt and suggest they Google something. For example if one of our interns said "Sunday best" was jeans and a t-shirt, I might say, "Well, I've always thought of it as dressier, like slacks and a button-down shirt, maybe a tie even. Maybe you should Google it and see what people say about dressing for interviews." Of course the risk is that they will see a "wrong" answer right at the beginning and go along with their original idea. At that point if it basically just affects them I tend to let it go. And I can see how, if this is your actual child, you might not want to let Google always do the parenting. ;)

But I think these days it's the equivalent to getting advice from someone other than YOU, which may be more convincing. I had a co-worker that I was assigned to help with a project (as in, shepherd her through it) and she seemed resistant to taking advice from me. Actually her attitude wasn't resistant at all, but whenever I checked her work again she wouldn't have done a lot of the things I suggested, and she wouldn't have a good reason for it. I didn't want to be a dictator about things so instead of saying, "This fact is wrong, fix it," I would be like, "Well, I always thought it was something else, maybe you should look it up." And then if she claimed to find a source that supported her, I could look at it and point out where she'd misread, or something like that. It seemed to be a lot more palatable, or maybe memorable, than me just saying, "You're wrong. Here's the right answer."
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way
Post by: AmethystAnne on February 28, 2013, 02:40:34 PM
<snip>
As a person who hired 45 college students a year for an AmeriCorps program, I took notice as to how students dressed for interviews. I had one man who wore flip flops, shorts and an old tee to an interview. That said a lot to me. He didn't care about getting the job. Maybe he did, but he certainly didn't care about how he looked to me. If he didn't care about the interview what would lead me to think he'd care about doing the job well? I didn't hire him. He contacted me as to why. I was honest and he shot me back an response saying all kinds of nasty things about me judgmental attitude. Look, when I have 150 applicants for 45 slots, I can choose to be picky and I look at the nonverbal as well as the resume.


I think you dodged a bullet by not hiring this guy. Can you imagine the attitude his supervisors would get on a daily basis?
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way
Post by: *inviteseller on February 28, 2013, 02:57:50 PM
Oh, my 17 yr old DD will not listen to a word I say.  So, I have been sitting back and letting her take her lumps, then trying not to dance a little when she asks why I didn't tell her what would happen.   ::)
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way
Post by: Midnight Kitty on February 28, 2013, 03:14:41 PM
She's not a "young" adult, but there is a clerk in my office that is "advice immune."  She will not listen to advice, or directions.  She will challenge anyone who tells her how to do anything.  She will argue, even if she has no experience doing the task, she thinks she knows a better way to do it than anyone else who ever did the task.  She has fouled up mass mailings, then called in sick and 3 of us had to drop our work to fix the problem.  She fouled up the database - completely FUBAR.  Need to start over again.

I think she's trying to commit professional darwinism but her supervisor is too lazy to write her up for misconduct. >:(
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way
Post by: nalapuppy on February 28, 2013, 03:24:59 PM
As a parent of a high school senior, I cannot imagine sitting quietly and letting my son make such a mistake.  This is his future he is trying for.  My son is a typical "know-it-all" teenager too, but part of being a parent is too teach them things, to help avoid big mistakes (if possible).

If my son was planning on wearing inappropriate attire, and arguing over the definition, I would simply say that he needs to look up the meaning.  A scholarship interview is too important to sit back and let him learn from a mistake.  Now if it was something like a dinner, wedding, etc then I would not say anything.  That would just be embarrassing, not possibly impact his future.

I'm not judging the OP, just saying my point of view.  We all parent in different ways. 
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way
Post by: Marguette on February 28, 2013, 03:57:49 PM
As a person who hired 45 college students a year for an AmeriCorps program, I took notice as to how students dressed for interviews. I had one man who wore flip flops, shorts and an old tee to an interview. That said a lot to me. He didn't care about getting the job. Maybe he did, but he certainly didn't care about how he looked to me. If he didn't care about the interview what would lead me to think he'd care about doing the job well? I didn't hire him. He contacted me as to why. I was honest and he shot me back an response saying all kinds of nasty things about me judgmental attitude.

 He said “judgmental attitude” as though it was something bad; ::) that he didn’t realize that making a hiring decision is all about judging.
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way
Post by: TootsNYC on February 28, 2013, 04:40:36 PM
My oldest is advice resistant and love to give unsolicited advice, so a double whammy.  I often have to say it in a vague way to dd like you did in the OP.  And many a times she will tell me afterwards but huh maybe I was right after all.  I tell her it isn't a matter of being right, just have been through it and then I change the subject.


Now my youngest dd is the opposite, she listens well and won't speak up unless she knows the answer for sure.  And has pissed off her older sister saying, "Didn't mom tell you..." lol  I have to tell my youngest to please back off her sister even though I know she means well.  And youngest always tells me, "But you are MOM!  You know everything!  Why is she being so stubborn?"  I only hope youngest doesn't outgrow that!

I too make the point to my kids that I'm telling them stuff because I've simply lived longer and learned more stuff.

Usually I tell them that I've messed it up myself when I was younger and that I hope they'll learn from my screwup--it'll make me feel better about having messed up.

For your youngest, that might be something to explain--that being "right just because you're MOM" is actually sort of insulting to your oldest. And that the reason you're right is NOT because you're mom but because you've simply lived more years and paid attention. And yes, have made a few of those mistakes yourself.
   It would help your youngest to recognize the distinction that you yourself have made.
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way
Post by: Redneck Gravy on February 28, 2013, 05:01:51 PM
My oldest DD just had a fit about Valentine's Day this year.  She has two children 3 & 9 months and could not get a babysitter and wanted me to keep the kids for her.  I had plans I was not willing to change. 

She said something along the lines of still being young and wanting to enjoy V-Day.  And my basic reply was, "I know exactly how hard it is to make V Day plans with two kids at home.  As I told you before you brought these two joys into the world - being a mom is all about sacrifice.  Now I have sacrificed my V-Day for the last 15 years to be around for you and your sister - it's my turn.  Welcome to motherhood."  I didn't mean it to be snarky, it's just the facts.  I gave up my V-Day dates and many others when I couldn't get a sitter and that's just the way that went.  Now she has two kids and that's what happens when you're the mom and can't find a sitter on ANY date, you stay home, make other plans, etc. 

This is another example of warning a child what happens when you make choices (good or bad).  I love my grandbabies but I am not giving up my social life because DD chose to have two children, I told her LIFE CHANGES when you have kids - think before you decide to have them young. 

I know this is more of an extreme example - but sometimes kids just have to learn the hard way.   
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way
Post by: Rusty on February 28, 2013, 05:09:02 PM
My DD's partner is a lovely person but unfortunately thinks he is an expert in most fields.   At the moment he thinks he is a tradesman and can fix all manner of things in the old house they have bought and are planning to renovate.   This entails him borrowing our power tools and so far bringing them back in various states of disrepair or just plain stuffed. Of course it is never his fault, "the thing must be faulty, or "I only used it for a minute and it blew up".

We have offered to buy him a few of his own, but he doesn't seem to think its necessary.

At this point my DH has steam coming out his ears over his precious tools and has issued an edict (to me) "He's not taking any more tools"
 
DH is a softy and expects me to issue the edict.   
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way
Post by: twiggy on February 28, 2013, 05:31:39 PM
 
Quote
When I was a boy of 14, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be 21, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned in seven years. 

I remember Dad casually mentioning this Mark Twain quote when I was 18 or 19. I rolled my eyes at him. 3 or 4 years later, I agreed with the sentiment.  ;) ::)
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way
Post by: bloo on February 28, 2013, 05:38:25 PM
Quote
When I was a boy of 14, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be 21, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned in seven years. 

I remember Dad casually mentioning this Mark Twain quote when I was 18 or 19. I rolled my eyes at him. 3 or 4 years later, I agreed with the sentiment.  ;) ::)

I remember when I was 17 and just-turned-18 I thought my parents were so dumb it was a miracle they were alive. Within two weeks of moving out at 18, my parents looked like a couple of Einsteins.

And I was hungry...
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way
Post by: Sharnita on February 28, 2013, 05:39:49 PM
As a secondary teacher who works with as many as 300 teen kids a year these posts are making me laugh and laugh...
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way
Post by: snappylt on February 28, 2013, 10:13:44 PM
wait -but did he get the scholarship?

OP here again. No, he did not.  I'll share more of the story below.

As a parent of a high school senior, I cannot imagine sitting quietly and letting my son make such a mistake.  This is his future he is trying for.  My son is a typical "know-it-all" teenager too, but part of being a parent is too teach them things, to help avoid big mistakes (if possible).

If my son was planning on wearing inappropriate attire, and arguing over the definition, I would simply say that he needs to look up the meaning.  A scholarship interview is too important to sit back and let him learn from a mistake.  Now if it was something like a dinner, wedding, etc then I would not say anything.  That would just be embarrassing, not possibly impact his future.

I'm not judging the OP, just saying my point of view.  We all parent in different ways.

OP again  here. Nalapuppy, believe me, I think I know where you are coming from.  I was raised in the style I think you are mentioning.  Also, I myself was NOT advice-resistant as a teenager.  FWIW, I was the kind of teenager who worried too much and usually tried to please authority figures.  (I'll bet you'd have liked me if I had been your child!)

My own children are NOT like their father (me).  They are very independent thinkers and doers and don't seem to want approval nearly as much as I did.

The one son I wrote about here, particularly, makes his own decisions and digs his heels in quite thoroughly.  He gets very angry if his mother or I try to guide him differently than he wants to go.

He will, sometimes, listen to other adults who are not his parents, though.  So, a time or two when he seemed to be making some decisions my wife and I were really worried about, we were able to steer him in to visit with another adult whom he likes and respects.  The other adult told him the same things we told him, but he was willing to actually listen to the other adult and agreed to modify his decision.

(Please, I am not intending to get snarky here!) You mentioned that you wouldn't allow your HS senior son to make this mistake.  Let me just ask you, if your 17½ year old son was bigger and stronger than you and he stubbornly dug his heels in and insisted upon dressing his own way, exactly how would you force him to comply with you?  (I hope your son is not like I am describing - I hope he is more willing to accept reasonable guidance from you!)

I'll grant you, I didn't try that hard.  I have learned to pick my battles with this young man because he is very strong-willed.  In this case I gently suggested that he should pick dressier clothes, and when he insisted he was right, I stopped pushing.

In this case I already had some serious doubts that my son was likely to win this scholarship program.  While his test scores were very very high, and he had glowing recommendations from professionals in that field of study, his actual school grade average was maybe a tad below average.  This is a scholarship program that attracts many more applicants than spaces available, so my educated guess was that when they took a look at his actual grades, he would be eliminated because of his grades.

I never mentioned any hint of my doubts to my son, by the way.  I only made positive, encouraging comments (and silently hoped I was wrong about his chances).

Now - if he had had great grades to go along with his test scores and recommendations - if I had thought he had a better chance to be among the very few who actually get into that scholarship program.. I wonder if I'd have risked an explosion from him to try to insist that he wear dressier clothes.  Maybe I'd have pushed a little harder - although with this son, I doubt he'd have listened any better if I had pushed harder.

Did I worry about my decision to not make a big deal about his clothing?  Yes, because of my own personality, my initial tendency is to feel guilty.  So when he rejected my gentle advice the night before, I felt badly for him, because I was 99½% sure that I was right - and I was. 

I'll never know if it was his grades or the way he dressed at the interviews - or a combination of the two that led to him not receiving this scholarship program.  But I do think he himself said he learned a lesson that day, and this particular young man, I've found, seems to need to learn lessons independently like this, because he doesn't want to listen to his mother and me.
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way
Post by: nalapuppy on March 01, 2013, 09:56:49 AM
(Please, I am not intending to get snarky here!) You mentioned that you wouldn't allow your HS senior son to make this mistake.  Let me just ask you, if your 17½ year old son was bigger and stronger than you and he stubbornly dug his heels in and insisted upon dressing his own way, exactly how would you force him to comply with you?  (I hope your son is not like I am describing - I hope he is more willing to accept reasonable guidance from you!)

Thanks for pointing this out.  You're right, there is no way I would be able to force him to dress appropriately.  I definitely used the words "let/allow" out of context. 

What I would do is not to sit quietly and watch as he was not dressed correctly.  If he was digging his heels in, and trying to not take my advice, I would direct him to ask other adults (that would know the parameters he would need to follow), or research it online.  For something this important, I would keep after him until he had a much clearer picture of what was needed.

Now, for something that isn't so important, and he isn't willing to be guided, I would sit back quietly and let him learn by his own mistakes.
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: RebeccainGA on March 01, 2013, 09:57:21 AM
My DD is horrible about this - well, until she moved out. Now she's much better.

Growing up, she hated going to the grocery store. She said when she was older she'd just eat out all the time - after all, she could get hamburgers off the dollar menu and it was cheaper than what she could cook at home. She said she'd never need to learn to cook. Less than a week after moving into her first apartment, she was back to 'borrow' utensils, pans, and such - I had an old set from when I was single I gave her, with some additions from Target's clearance aisle. She told me that if she never ate another cheap hamburger it'd be just fine with her. LOL
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: siamesecat2965 on March 01, 2013, 10:12:32 AM
Reading all these makes me so glad my parents let me learn from my mistakes. Not that I made many; or big ones, but I'm a firm believer in letter your kids do their own thing, and if they mess up, hopefully they won't again. That's how I was raised, but I see and hear so many of my friends and co-workers who arent able to do that, and insist on doing everything for their kids. And its not doing them any favors. They are completely unprepared for real life.

I'm reminded of an episode of the Cosby Show, when Theo is tired of the rules, and talks about how he can't wait to move out, and live on his own, and how wonderful it will be!  So (if I recall) his father gives him fake money and says, this is what you earn. Theo is thrilled!  Then he takes some away for taxes. And some more for rent, and some more for utilities, and so on, until Theo is left with almost nothing. 
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: stargazer on March 01, 2013, 10:21:08 AM
Reading all these makes me so glad my parents let me learn from my mistakes. Not that I made many; or big ones, but I'm a firm believer in letter your kids do their own thing, and if they mess up, hopefully they won't again. That's how I was raised, but I see and hear so many of my friends and co-workers who arent able to do that, and insist on doing everything for their kids. And its not doing them any favors. They are completely unprepared for real life.

I'm reminded of an episode of the Cosby Show, when Theo is tired of the rules, and talks about how he can't wait to move out, and live on his own, and how wonderful it will be!  So (if I recall) his father gives him fake money and says, this is what you earn. Theo is thrilled!  Then he takes some away for taxes. And some more for rent, and some more for utilities, and so on, until Theo is left with almost nothing.

I remember that episode too, and Theo gloating because he was able to survive with what he "earned" although he was down to nothing left in the end.  Until his dad pointed out one problem in Theo's equation.  Theo hadn't "eaten" yet!  Apparently food is magical when you are younger and doesn't cost money.
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: Hillia on March 01, 2013, 10:32:12 AM
My mom did a similar thing for me, only I was much younger, maybe 7 or 8, and nagging about wanting a bigger car, a trip to Disneyland, a pony, all sorts of things.  And my  mother would explain to me that while we had plenty of money for the comfortable house and car that we had, and good food, and warm clothes...she couldn't get it in my head.

So one week she arranged it with the bank, and got my dad's paycheck cashed in $1 bills (this was in the late 60's/early 70's).  She showed me this stack of bills and I was thrilled...look how much we had!  But then she started making piles...here's what we pay for our house, here's what we pay for our groceries, here's what we save for vacation, until there was nothing left.
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: siamesecat2965 on March 01, 2013, 10:37:06 AM
Reading all these makes me so glad my parents let me learn from my mistakes. Not that I made many; or big ones, but I'm a firm believer in letter your kids do their own thing, and if they mess up, hopefully they won't again. That's how I was raised, but I see and hear so many of my friends and co-workers who arent able to do that, and insist on doing everything for their kids. And its not doing them any favors. They are completely unprepared for real life.

I'm reminded of an episode of the Cosby Show, when Theo is tired of the rules, and talks about how he can't wait to move out, and live on his own, and how wonderful it will be!  So (if I recall) his father gives him fake money and says, this is what you earn. Theo is thrilled!  Then he takes some away for taxes. And some more for rent, and some more for utilities, and so on, until Theo is left with almost nothing.

I remember that episode too, and Theo gloating because he was able to survive with what he "earned" although he was down to nothing left in the end.  Until his dad pointed out one problem in Theo's equation.  Theo hadn't "eaten" yet!  Apparently food is magical when you are younger and doesn't cost money.

That's right!  I forgot about that part.  I cannnot wait to see what happens with my CW's daughter next year. She's a freshman and living in the dorms. She has money which she's earned, but spends like crazy and has no concept. I told CW just give it all to her and if she spends it all, let HER figure it out. But CW is such a control freak she won't. She did howver, give her a substantial sum, and tell her I don't want to hear or receive any calls asking for money for the rest of the school year.

Child will be living in an apt next year. Oy vey. Not only is she a slob, but I don't know how she is going to manage having to pay things like utilities etc. She also loses and breaks things. And I'm guessing neither she nor mom will think it necessary to have rental insurance. I'm not even going there.
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: mbbored on March 01, 2013, 10:47:58 AM
It's not just young adults who sometimes fail to meet dress codes. My mother has two uniforms: souvenir t shirt with old jeans and sneakers or sandals, or shapeless ankle length jumper over tee shirt with loafers or sandals. Wine tasting fundraiser, symphony performance, graduations, weddings: she dresses exactly the same. That's it and honestly that's fine by me. She's an adult and can dress herself however she wants. However, I don't know how many times we've gone to something and she has scolded ME for not telling her she was inappropriately dressed.

But, heaven forbid I say before we leave, "Last time you wore that to XYZ event you were uncomfortable about how dressed up you were. Do you want to try on something different?" Because apparently that's judgmental and she's an adult.

The only time my sister and I put our feet down was when our brother got married in an evening ceremony at a fancy restaurant in Manhattan. We said we weren't going to spend the next 30 years listen to her gripe about the fact that she wasn't in any pictures, when the truth was she refused to dress appropriately then said she was too embarrassed to be in the pictures. We found a very attractive (and loose!) ankle length dress with comfortable but cute flats.
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: Yvaine on March 01, 2013, 10:56:12 AM
It's not just young adults who sometimes fail to meet dress codes. My mother has two uniforms: souvenir t shirt with old jeans and sneakers or sandals, or shapeless ankle length jumper over tee shirt with loafers or sandals. Wine tasting fundraiser, symphony performance, graduations, weddings: she dresses exactly the same. That's it and honestly that's fine by me. She's an adult and can dress herself however she wants. However, I don't know how many times we've gone to something and she has scolded ME for not telling her she was inappropriately dressed.

But, heaven forbid I say before we leave, "Last time you wore that to XYZ event you were uncomfortable about how dressed up you were. Do you want to try on something different?" Because apparently that's judgmental and she's an adult.

The only time my sister and I put our feet down was when our brother got married in an evening ceremony at a fancy restaurant in Manhattan. We said we weren't going to spend the next 30 years listen to her gripe about the fact that she wasn't in any pictures, when the truth was she refused to dress appropriately then said she was too embarrassed to be in the pictures. We found a very attractive (and loose!) ankle length dress with comfortable but cute flats.

I have a dear friend (in her forties) who hates to dress up. And it's no-win. If she shows up and is underdressed, she gets upset because she's underdressed. If she does decide to dress up, she gets upset because she thinks she looks silly in her dressy clothes and that everyone else looks better in their dressy clothes. Some days I think she likes to dress down because then she can tell herself that she just "looks worse" because she didn't dress up, while if she does dress up she has to confront all the rest of her insecurities about her appearance.
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way
Post by: bopper on March 01, 2013, 11:02:47 AM
My DD's partner is a lovely person but unfortunately thinks he is an expert in most fields.   At the moment he thinks he is a tradesman and can fix all manner of things in the old house they have bought and are planning to renovate.   This entails him borrowing our power tools and so far bringing them back in various states of disrepair or just plain stuffed. Of course it is never his fault, "the thing must be faulty, or "I only used it for a minute and it blew up".

We have offered to buy him a few of his own, but he doesn't seem to think its necessary.

At this point my DH has steam coming out his ears over his precious tools and has issued an edict (to me) "He's not taking any more tools"
 
DH is a softy and expects me to issue the edict.

I have a rule with my kids that I will loan you (small bits) of money, but if you do not pay me back immediately and make me chase you for money, then I do not lend you money any more.

I have one daughter who still gets lent money and two that don't.

Also our exchange daughter has started going to the gym with anohter family.  The other family is nice enough to come pick her up, but they still have to ring the doorbell and wait for her to gather a few final things. I have told her that if she wants to continue getting rides (I said that I would not commit to taking her to the gym 3 times a week) she should be standing at the door waiting for THEM.  But I am just a mom, what do I know.
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: BeagleMommy on March 01, 2013, 11:10:50 AM
DS isn't like this.  He will usually ask me for advice then make his own decision based on what advice he's been given.

DH on the other hand?  Ugh.  The man has four polo shirts and two pairs of khaki's (olive green or black) that serve as his uniform.  Otherwise it's T-shirts and his one pair of jeans (honestly, how can anyone survive with only one pair of jeans).

The other day I mentioned that the burnt orange polo shirt and green khaki combination really made him look like a pumpkin.  Of course, I can't know what I'm talking about.  He looks fiiiiiiine.

Until he saw the 85-year-old neighbor wearing the identical outfit!   ;D
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: Sophia on March 01, 2013, 11:18:10 AM
I would tell him, "Smart people can learn from OTHER PEOPLE's mistakes"
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: otterwoman on March 01, 2013, 11:24:58 AM
Quote
Child will be living in an apt next year. Oy vey. Not only is she a slob, but I don't know how she is going to manage having to pay things like utilities etc. She also loses and breaks things. And I'm guessing neither she nor mom will think it necessary to have rental insurance. I'm not even going there.

Snipped down a bit

If the daughter is a student, her apartment might be covered under her mother's homeowners insurance. The mom would need to check with her company. But renter's insurance is dirt cheap on it's own, I agree it's worth it.
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: siamesecat2965 on March 01, 2013, 12:27:57 PM
Quote
Child will be living in an apt next year. Oy vey. Not only is she a slob, but I don't know how she is going to manage having to pay things like utilities etc. She also loses and breaks things. And I'm guessing neither she nor mom will think it necessary to have rental insurance. I'm not even going there.

Snipped down a bit

If the daughter is a student, her apartment might be covered under her mother's homeowners insurance. The mom would need to check with her company. But renter's insurance is dirt cheap on it's own, I agree it's worth it.

Oh I know. But both mom and daugher are a bit clueless so I'm guessing the thought won't even cross their mind until something's happened. And they then find out she did need rental, and is not covered under mom's policy. and has to pay for whatever was stolen etc. herself.

and on a side note; Im thankful my complex requires rental insurance. ONe of my CWs and her family, father, fiancee and 4 kids lost everything in a fire this week, and had no insurance. I think I pay slightly less than $200 year and have coverage to replace everything i own (I hope)
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: Mammavan3 on March 01, 2013, 02:05:17 PM
There is hope.

I worked for a large multinational, and our chairman is one you see on the financial shows. If he asked me a question about our company's stock, he would accept my answer as correct. DD, OTOH, would believe any fifteen-year-old she had never seen before rather than believe what I said. Even she told us many times, "You know I have to learn the hard way." 

Now that she's married and has a little one, she calls me at least three times a week to ask my opinion or for advice. I'm so glad she can't see the grin on my face when she does.
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: EveLGenius on March 01, 2013, 05:21:05 PM
Several years ago, when our nieces were in junior high or thereabouts, we met up with them at a park that had a lovely creek going through it.  The creek had an improved wading area (steps leading to it, cobblestone bottom) that was about ankle deep, and where the wading area ended there was a "swimming hole" that was about three feet deep.  I recommended that the nieces stay off of the rocks near the swimming hole, because they were damp and algae-covered, and therefore slippery.  One of them said, "What happens if we go there anyway?"  I shrugged and said, "You don't have swimsuits or changes of clothes with you, so you're the one who has to walk around in wet underwear for the rest of the day."

As I'm sure you can predict, they all went and played on the slippery rocks.  The one who asked the question did in fact fall in, and was breathlessly waiting to be yelled at.  Nobody said a word. 

About two hours later, she quietly said to me, "You're right.  I regret that."
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: TootsNYC on March 01, 2013, 10:59:39 PM
Similar to the last post:

My son carries his sneakers and gym clothes in a separate bag.
Suddenly they disappeared. It's possible for stuff to get lost in our messy home, but we couldn't find them.

So we calmly discussed where they might have been lost (on the bus? he didn't think so; maybe at Dunkin' Donuts).

I expressed chagrin and concern but pointed out: Grownups lose stuff like that too.

Grownups fall in and have to wear damp underwear.

The lessons we teach ourselves can be very powerful. But if you (the parent) pressure or scold, you can really undermine that.

I do like the "smart people learn from OTHERS' mistakes" point. I try very much to make the point, "it's not because I'm your mom; it's because I've lived for several more years than you."
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: CakeEater on March 01, 2013, 11:52:00 PM
Before I wore glasses full time, I lost them (as well as other things) by leaving them behind when I got up to walk away from somehwere I had been sitting, but had always recovered my belongings. After the time I lost them and didn't recover them, I started (at age 19 or so) standing up and looking where I had been sitting instead of just walking away.

Made a world of difference, and I have rarely lost items since. My parents had often nagged me about being careful with my belongings, but until it really hit me that day, I didn't care enough to come up with a system for myself.
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: Ginya on March 03, 2013, 12:08:44 PM
I've always had a mind of my own but I've always weighed my parents advice. In my younger adolescence I was much worse but thankfully by the time I was ready to go to college I had developed a fancy for dress clothes so that was never an issue.

However I do remember one particular disagreement I had with my parents when I was about 12-13 about the appropriateness of flip-flops as dress shoes.  ::) I do believe I eventually changed my shoes for that event, but about ten years later I was shopping with my mother for a dress coat. It was a warm fall day so I was wearing flip-flops, while trying a coat on I told her I couldn't take myself seriously in them and she gloated in her victory. Sometimes time and experience are the only things that will change our perspective.

My mother said of me that she was happy that I questioned everything because it meant she had raised an intelligent and inquisitive mind that wouldn't blindly do as I was told. So I imagine it is frustrating to deal with a rebellious child, there can be an upside to all that stubbornness.
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: Piratelvr1121 on March 03, 2013, 12:34:40 PM
Last June, after having attended church for a few months, I decided it was time for my boys to be getting some spiritual upbringing. I used to take them to church when they were toddlers but because it was so difficult to keep them quiet and still and there was no nursery at the church we used to attend, DH and I just stopped attending. 

Well the boys whined, they complained, they begged, did not want to go to church.  I told them "Tough noogies, you're going."  After the first time, as we were leaving, middle son said "That was an HOUR? It only felt like 20 minutes!"

Then mid summer we switched churches and again I heard "Why do we have to change churches? Why do we even have to go, it's booooooring! I know we're going to hate it, church is so boooooooooring!" (the previous church lost it's shine after a while) Well the church we attend now has a children's chapel where they leave at the beginning of the service and return before communion and other days, like today, they are given a part to play in the service, like being asked to do a reading, carrying the offering trays, etc. 

As we were leaving the church after the first time I hear "Mom, when do we go to church again?"
"Next Sunday."
"We have to wait a whole week???????"  :)
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: Adelaide on March 03, 2013, 01:53:41 PM
My brother learned everything the hard way because he was so resistant to advice. He was one of those kids who thought that advice=judgment. I remember once my parents suggested that he move his truck (with the broken window) in the garage so that it wouldn't get wet. He insisted that it "wasn't going to rain" and the next morning he woke up to a wet passenger seat. :P

On the other hand, my parents were horrible with discipline. From as early as I can remember they expected us to "want" to do things like put our dirty dishes in the dishwasher instead of on the counter. They'd get angry with us once, kick up a huge fuss, and then let weeks go by without comment. If they thought of it again, they'd become indignant about it at some arbitrary point in time, and would then say "There's something wrong with you! Why don't you want to put your dirty dishes up?" If I'd have had a more developed sense of humor I would have just stared at them and said "Because I'm ten."

I think this sort of exchange lends itself to creating stubborn teenagers. (I'm not suggesting that parents are at fault for the angry cocktail of hormones or the stubbornness of teens, but in my case, my parents' half-hearted "parenting" style didn't give them any credibility in the eyes of myself or my brother. He learned early on that he could get away with murder with only the occasional lecture.)
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: Katana_Geldar on March 03, 2013, 04:32:18 PM
Why is it that kids know exactly how to push you? It astounds me sometimes how they know how to play adults against each other. And most of the time it's in a non-malicious way.

They can also have a strong sense of injustice when they see something or someone is being unfairly dealt with by an adult at just refuses to listen.

Sorry, that was a bit off topic. But I guess I kind of learned from my parents the hard way of being even handed.
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: snappylt on March 03, 2013, 05:34:13 PM
Several years ago, when our nieces were in junior high or thereabouts, we met up with them at a park that had a lovely creek going through it.  The creek had an improved wading area (steps leading to it, cobblestone bottom) that was about ankle deep, and where the wading area ended there was a "swimming hole" that was about three feet deep.  I recommended that the nieces stay off of the rocks near the swimming hole, because they were damp and algae-covered, and therefore slippery.  One of them said, "What happens if we go there anyway?"  I shrugged and said, "You don't have swimsuits or changes of clothes with you, so you're the one who has to walk around in wet underwear for the rest of the day."

As I'm sure you can predict, they all went and played on the slippery rocks.  The one who asked the question did in fact fall in, and was breathlessly waiting to be yelled at.  Nobody said a word.

About two hours later, she quietly said to me, "You're right.  I regret that."

OP here.  (My own bolding in the quote.)

I learned that strategy from my wife, the strategy of not pointing out the obvious when it is too late to do anything about it.  My own natural tendency, unless I'm thinking carefully, would be to say something like "I told you so."  My wife taught me that if I do that, my kids focus on being annoyed with me.  But if I don't point out the obvious, then they focus more on the problem and what they can learn from it.
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: MaryMy on March 03, 2013, 09:59:20 PM
When my oldest became a teen I set the tone for all future dress issues. They could dress how they wanted for school, following school guidelines. We are a family of jokers and teasers, so I let my sons know if I ever saw their backsides because of saggy jeans I could tease and sing about them having pimples on their backsides. Number one rule in dressing for my kids was they had to have one outfit in their wardrobe they could go out for dinner with me. No saggy pants, no t-shirts, no nasty sneakers. Denim was fine as long as they fit properly. I gladly bought the clothes for family nights out. Clothes I didn't like they had to buy themselves, that meant working a job. I never fought with them about dress, just set the example.

All 3 had the proper clothes to go for dinner with me all through their teen years. All 3 came to me about clothes for job interviews. The boys did have to borrow a few shirts from their dad at times.

The other thing we taught them was the cost of going out and why it's important to dress for that occasion. This lead to dressing for interviews whether for jobs or school. My husband worked to pay the bills, save for the future and vacations. I worked for fun money. I'd tell my kids how many hours I had to work for this night out at dinner. All this translated to job/school interviews. Dress for what you want in the future, the job you want to end up with.

We set the example and set the expectation. Thankfully our kids decided to join us in the fun nights out to eat. So guess  my point is I would have not said a word if my child wanted a 30 inch mohawk, I would have had many fun card nights with them. But, no, I'm not going to take you to a dinner at a restaurant with that wild hair. I worked to many hours for that dinner and you <child you> have to respect that.

My oldest son was working for a fastfood place. He was asked to go for management, if he cut his waist length hair. His hair was clean and held back and he wore a net. But the condition for the job was a buzz cut. He turned down the position and instead went into the army?! yeah confusing.
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: Piratelvr1121 on March 03, 2013, 10:07:35 PM
Why is it that kids know exactly how to push you? It astounds me sometimes how they know how to play adults against each other. And most of the time it's in a non-malicious way.

They can also have a strong sense of injustice when they see something or someone is being unfairly dealt with by an adult at just refuses to listen.

Sorry, that was a bit off topic. But I guess I kind of learned from my parents the hard way of being even handed.

I knew a little girl who was frighteningly good at, as a friend says, playing both ends against the middle.  Her mother and grandmother did not get along and more than once I got drawn into her schemes to make good on the poor communication and relationship issues.

At the time I had two boys in elementary school and she told her grandmother that since her mother wouldn't take her to the back to school/meet the teacher night, I said that I would take the girl.  I didn't know I had said this until the grandmother asked me if I was sure that I didn't mind doing this.

I told the grandmother "I never said I would do that.  I have two boys in two different grades, I have to figure out how to meet two different teachers within a small time frame and get all the info needed." Grandmother agreed with me that it wouldn't work at all for me to add in meeting her granddaughter's teacher and got the girl to admit that her mother had never said anything about not taking her. 

(Course the girl was in the same class as our oldest but still...principle of the thing)
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: Slartibartfast on March 03, 2013, 11:46:09 PM
My oldest son was working for a fastfood place. He was asked to go for management, if he cut his waist length hair. His hair was clean and held back and he wore a net. But the condition for the job was a buzz cut. He turned down the position and instead went into the army?! yeah confusing.

A high school classmate of mine joined the army because he was "sick of people telling him what to do."
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: GSNW on March 03, 2013, 11:56:28 PM
I've gotta say, this is a great thread!

When I was a freshman in college, I got a super-exciting letter from Discover.  They wanted to give me a credit card!  My parents, who are probably the best money managers I know, strongly warned against it. I had a card of theirs for emergencies so my own card was not necessary (plus, they knew I was an avid spender).  But they were obviously too dumb to know what they were talking about, and I took the $1,000 credit card gladly.  I remember thinking at the time that they were trying to prevent me from having the means to go out of town with my then-boyfriend, who they really disliked.  I'd show them!

Yeah, maxed that thing out in no time and had nothing to show for it.  When they started calling my dorm room looking for payment and I realized my job at the student rec wasn't going to make much of a dent, I was pretty freaked out.  My mom was nice enough to help me re-work my budget so I could make a few months of pathetically small payments before strongly suggesting that I work my rear off over the summer and pay it off.  I listened that time around!


A friend of mine from HS inherited $500,000 when his grandmother died (this was my sophomore year of college).  I don't know many 19-year-olds that have any business with $500k, and anyway, he wasn't supposed to get the entire sum right away - but his mom gave it all to him anyway.  He bought a house which he proceeded to trash by renting rooms to his friends for next to nothing and throwing huge parties (admittedly, they were some great parties).  He bought enough clothes for the entire campus.  He bought stacks of CDs.  He bought a car which he also trashed.  By the time he graduated, all he had left was the house, which he sold for substantially less than he paid for it.  Very sad.
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: Katana_Geldar on March 04, 2013, 01:11:39 AM
I guess this why people put the caveat in their will for sums that large to be paid when the receiver is 25.

Pissing away 500,000...
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: Adelaide on March 04, 2013, 06:15:19 AM
I guess this why people put the caveat in their will for sums that large to be paid when the receiver is 25.

Pissing away 500,000...

Definitely true. Two of my cousins blew through an appalling amount each on meth and cars. I'm a fan of making the trustee live off of the interest until a certain age, like 25 or 30, before they get the principle. (If they ever do.)
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: Yvaine on March 04, 2013, 07:26:52 AM
My oldest son was working for a fastfood place. He was asked to go for management, if he cut his waist length hair. His hair was clean and held back and he wore a net. But the condition for the job was a buzz cut. He turned down the position and instead went into the army?! yeah confusing.

It makes a bit of sideways sense to me--as in, if he's going to submit to such a strict hair requirement, it'll at least be for a cause rather than just because of some megalomaniacal fast food manager's whim (because requiring a buzz cut for fast food is not normal--sometimes short hair is required but not specifically that). He probably thought "Wow, they're as strict as the army!" and then realized that the army pays better.
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: siamesecat2965 on March 04, 2013, 07:29:13 AM
I guess this why people put the caveat in their will for sums that large to be paid when the receiver is 25.

Pissing away 500,000...

Definitely true. Two of my cousins blew through an appalling amount each on meth and cars. I'm a fan of making the trustee live off of the interest until a certain age, like 25 or 30, before they get the principle. (If they ever do.)

Oh I agree 100%! I d@ted a guy who had cousins who inherited millions when they turned 18 - their family had a well known regional chain of dept. stores.  At the time we were together, almost 20 years ago, all three cousins were I believe in their 30's, and none had any direction in life. They had just p*ssed away a great deal of their money. If I recall, a relative stepped in and somehow gained control, maybe a parent? and they then were given an allowance to live on, which I think was what they did. But none of them ever really had a job, or went anywhere in life.  It's kind of sad actually.

I know I say if I ever win the lottery, I'd be so much smarter with it now, than I would have at 18. 
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: GSNW on March 04, 2013, 12:56:20 PM
I guess this why people put the caveat in their will for sums that large to be paid when the receiver is 25.

Pissing away 500,000...

Definitely true. Two of my cousins blew through an appalling amount each on meth and cars. I'm a fan of making the trustee live off of the interest until a certain age, like 25 or 30, before they get the principle. (If they ever do.)

Oh I agree 100%! I d@ted a guy who had cousins who inherited millions when they turned 18 - their family had a well known regional chain of dept. stores.  At the time we were together, almost 20 years ago, all three cousins were I believe in their 30's, and none had any direction in life. They had just p*ssed away a great deal of their money. If I recall, a relative stepped in and somehow gained control, maybe a parent? and they then were given an allowance to live on, which I think was what they did. But none of them ever really had a job, or went anywhere in life.  It's kind of sad actually.

I know I say if I ever win the lottery, I'd be so much smarter with it now, than I would have at 18.

I think that's part of the reason it's such a sad story - 500k is a life-changing amount for the majority of people.  I could buy a home I really love outright and never have a mortgage payment again, imagine!  I love my job, so continuing to work would be no problem, but our paychecks would be spent on fab vacations.

The other reason the story is sad is that this is a place where parents had the legal authority to step in.  Grandma said that my friend was supposed to get half right away (still too much IMO) and the other half when he graduated college.  Mom, who was the executor as I understand it, just forked it all over.  I don't know the legalities of that and it doesn't matter at this point, but it doesn't seem like doing your kid a huge favor.  And it wasn't.
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: Cami on March 04, 2013, 01:52:36 PM
I guess this why people put the caveat in their will for sums that large to be paid when the receiver is 25.

Pissing away 500,000...

Definitely true. Two of my cousins blew through an appalling amount each on meth and cars. I'm a fan of making the trustee live off of the interest until a certain age, like 25 or 30, before they get the principle. (If they ever do.)
I had a friend in high school who came into a trust fund at the age of 18 and blew through it all by the age of 21. She spent it on a Trans Am and cocaine.

With that example, when we had our dd and wrote a will, I insisted that upon our death, all of the money would be put into a trust and she would only get the interest off of it until she turned 25. Now that my dd is college-age, she's pretty mature and our lawyer -- who knows her -- suggested we strike that proviso. I refused because she can be a little too generous with people with sad sack stories and I view it as  protecting her against giving away her money to some con artist.   Hopefully she'll be older and wiser by the time she's 25.
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: Piratelvr1121 on March 04, 2013, 02:52:15 PM
My best friend, as godmother to my youngest, has got a savings bond started up for him. I think he'll be able to access it when he turns 18 but there will be discussions as to the smartest ways to manage that money so that it won't be all gone before he can blink. 
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: siamesecat2965 on March 04, 2013, 02:58:18 PM
I know if I had ever been the recipient of a substantial sum of money at a young age, even outright, my parents woudl have done everything they could to help me NOT blow it all. And if I chose to, I can tell you, things would have been quite frosty between us had I chosen to ignore all their advice.  I can also say I woudl have been really tempted to spend it unwisely.

Also, back in HS, i had some AT&T stock I had gotten as a baby, and dividends were reinvested. When AT&T had to divest back in the early 80's i got about $400. Which to me was a HUGE sum of money. My parents, howver, made me put it in th bank, and use it to pay for books in college. I was not happy with them, but I followed their instructions, and was glad once I saw how much books cost!

Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: LadyClaire on March 04, 2013, 03:00:05 PM
Sometimes age doesn't bring wisdom when it comes to money. When my grandmother died, my father inherited close to $300k. He blew through it in a year. He was 52 years old at the time. He didn't use it on anything sensible, either. He didn't pay off the house, or do any of the much needed repairs. He spent it all on clothes, a couple of old Mustangs, car parts, and concert tickets.
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: Lynn2000 on March 04, 2013, 03:16:39 PM
I think the original story is interesting because, if the scholarship had been obtained, it would have impacted not just the teenager but also his parents--I'm assuming it was a decent amount of money which otherwise his parents had to pay. It sounds like the OP was somewhat doubtful he was going to get the scholarship anyway; but I think it's harder to stand back and let someone fail, when their failure is going to impact you--not just being sad to see them sad, but in some tangible way. Maybe that's more selfish? But, it's also selfish of the other person, too, to refuse to do something small (like take clothing advice) when other people are relying on them in some way. I feel like I was really dumb as a teenager, though, and even well into college--22, 23. At least I erred on the side of caution, but it was so hard for me to see the bigger picture and empathize with other people.  :P
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: TootsNYC on March 04, 2013, 03:31:43 PM
yeah--I know what you mean. My kid not doing his homework could impact me, bcs if he blows the chance to get a scholarship, or even to get INTO a particular school, it may impact me quite a bit.

I keep trying to say to myself, "It's his life; it's not your life," and it doesn't *have* to be my college bills, I guess. But it does impact me.
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: Lynn2000 on March 04, 2013, 03:35:07 PM
yeah--I know what you mean. My kid not doing his homework could impact me, bcs if he blows the chance to get a scholarship, or even to get INTO a particular school, it may impact me quite a bit.

I keep trying to say to myself, "It's his life; it's not your life," and it doesn't *have* to be my college bills, I guess. But it does impact me.

And it's a matter of degree, too--like, the kid not doing one assignment in second grade might very well teach him a lesson about being more responsible in the future (when he gets punished at school somehow), and it's not going to affect what college he gets into, you know? But that's very different from a junior in high school who seems to be blowing off all of his classes all semester.
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: magicdomino on March 04, 2013, 04:18:42 PM
Sometimes age doesn't bring wisdom when it comes to money. When my grandmother died, my father inherited close to $300k. He blew through it in a year. He was 52 years old at the time. He didn't use it on anything sensible, either. He didn't pay off the house, or do any of the much needed repairs. He spent it all on clothes, a couple of old Mustangs, car parts, and concert tickets.

No, it doesn't.  I know someone who inherited about $150,000, and blew it within a couple of years.  She did buy a house, a rundown fixer-upper, but didn't budget for repair cost.  She expected her children and husband to provide free labor, supplemented by cheap labor by neighborhood teens.  Well, the children lived pretty far away with their own families and homes. The husband was stationed overseas in the military, and was not happy to spend his leave working on what his wife insisted was her house.  (I think she was the only one surprised when he filed for divorce upon reassignment to the U.S.)  She hired some cheap labor -- although not neighborhood teens -- with unfortunate results.  Meanwhile, any money left over was spent on all sorts of building materials, appliances, bathroom fixtures, every single bit of garden decoration sold by Walmart, and expensive Christmas presents for her grandchildren.
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: Cami on March 05, 2013, 09:32:30 AM
Sometimes age doesn't bring wisdom when it comes to money. When my grandmother died, my father inherited close to $300k. He blew through it in a year. He was 52 years old at the time. He didn't use it on anything sensible, either. He didn't pay off the house, or do any of the much needed repairs. He spent it all on clothes, a couple of old Mustangs, car parts, and concert tickets.
Oh absolutely. I have a relative who has blown through more than 1 MILLION DOLLARS on such worthwhile expenditures as mani-pedis and spa days. Meanwhile, their house is falling apart and they never paid off their mortgage. But they sure do have glowing skin and "wicked awesome" nails.
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: Virg on March 05, 2013, 09:57:34 AM
Lynn2000 wrote:

"I think the original story is interesting because, if the scholarship had been obtained, it would have impacted not just the teenager but also his parents--I'm assuming it was a decent amount of money which otherwise his parents had to pay."

The bolded part jumps out at me.  Maybe it's just me, but I never saw any law passed that required a parent to foot the bill for a child's college education.  Sure, it happens all the time, but if my child blew a college scholarship through his own bad decisions, especially after going against or ignoring my advice, I'd have to think long and hard before ponying up the funds to offset it rather than put it right back in his lap to deal with.  Part of learning one's own lessons is dealing with the consequences of those decisions, and so the obvious consequence is that he has to figure out where to come up with the money that the scholarship would otherwise have provided.  If that means he's got to deal with heavier debt to get through school, then that's a life lesson learned and the next time such an opportunity arises I'd bet he'll put in more effort.

I can understand the idea that getting into a good school is extremely important, but at the same time my take on the whole thing is simple.  If my child doesn't put the effort into getting into Harvard including the understanding that outside advice will help his chances, then he probably doesn't belong at Harvard, and the vast majority of people in the world live a full life without a Harvard degree so it's not a life-or-death decision.

Virg
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: jaxsue on March 05, 2013, 10:10:10 AM
Lynn2000 wrote:

"I think the original story is interesting because, if the scholarship had been obtained, it would have impacted not just the teenager but also his parents--I'm assuming it was a decent amount of money which otherwise his parents had to pay."

The bolded part jumps out at me.  Maybe it's just me, but I never saw any law passed that required a parent to foot the bill for a child's college education.  Sure, it happens all the time, but if my child blew a college scholarship through his own bad decisions, especially after going against or ignoring my advice, I'd have to think long and hard before ponying up the funds to offset it rather than put it right back in his lap to deal with. Part of learning one's own lessons is dealing with the consequences of those decisions, and so the obvious consequence is that he has to figure out where to come up with the money that the scholarship would otherwise have provided.  If that means he's got to deal with heavier debt to get through school, then that's a life lesson learned and the next time such an opportunity arises I'd bet he'll put in more effort.

I can understand the idea that getting into a good school is extremely important, but at the same time my take on the whole thing is simple.  If my child doesn't put the effort into getting into Harvard including the understanding that outside advice will help his chances, then he probably doesn't belong at Harvard, and the vast majority of people in the world live a full life without a Harvard degree so it's not a life-or-death decision.

Virg

Per the bolded: ITA. It's amazing how motivated one is when they are ultimately responsible for the results. I have a friend whose daughter drags her feet about anything scholarship-related (or anything financial, come to think of it). She could actually qualify for quite a few scholarships, but the courts decided (upon her parents' divorce) that the parents pay 100% of her college costs. She knows this, of course, so there is absolutely no motivation for making an effort on her own.

There's nothing wrong with paying for a kid's college education, but there is not a parental failure if kids pay for their own. In my case, I was expected to get at least a BA, and on my own dime.
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: Lynn2000 on March 05, 2013, 10:51:23 AM
Lynn2000 wrote:

"I think the original story is interesting because, if the scholarship had been obtained, it would have impacted not just the teenager but also his parents--I'm assuming it was a decent amount of money which otherwise his parents had to pay."

The bolded part jumps out at me.  Maybe it's just me, but I never saw any law passed that required a parent to foot the bill for a child's college education.  Sure, it happens all the time, but if my child blew a college scholarship through his own bad decisions, especially after going against or ignoring my advice, I'd have to think long and hard before ponying up the funds to offset it rather than put it right back in his lap to deal with.  Part of learning one's own lessons is dealing with the consequences of those decisions, and so the obvious consequence is that he has to figure out where to come up with the money that the scholarship would otherwise have provided.  If that means he's got to deal with heavier debt to get through school, then that's a life lesson learned and the next time such an opportunity arises I'd bet he'll put in more effort.

I can understand the idea that getting into a good school is extremely important, but at the same time my take on the whole thing is simple.  If my child doesn't put the effort into getting into Harvard including the understanding that outside advice will help his chances, then he probably doesn't belong at Harvard, and the vast majority of people in the world live a full life without a Harvard degree so it's not a life-or-death decision.

Virg

Oh, I agree with you. That's why I stated what my assumption was, in case the OP wanted to clarify that it wasn't correct. (Though I understand we aren't exclusively discussing the story in the OP.) For a parent who had decided they would pay for their child's college, but was scrimping and sacrificing to do so, seeing the kid blow his chances at a big scholarship by being resistant to basic advice would be much harder to accept, I think. The temptation to advise and even insist anyway, despite the possibility of a blow-up and knowing how the kid learns best from experience, would be pretty strong, I think.

In a situation where the scholarship was nice but not necessary; or alternatively, where it was made clear that without the scholarship, the kid would not be attending college full-time because there was no way the parents could afford it on their own, I think it would be almost easier to let the kid fail, and learn from the failure. And I would think the same applies to other situations--like if the kid seems likely to blow a job interview, does the failure mean they'll stay in their parents' basement mooching off them, or just that they'll have to keep their current job which is sufficient pay-wise but not enjoyable to them? I would think the temptation to intervene would be stronger in the former situation, where success would have a direct, tangible impact on the parents.

But then again I don't have kids, so take those thoughts for what they're worth. :)
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: Katana_Geldar on March 05, 2013, 03:27:15 PM
There's nothing wrong with paying for a kid's college education, but there is not a parental failure if kids pay for their own. In my case, I was expected to get at least a BA, and on my own dime.

Me too.  I knew at a very young age that college would be totally on my own, but I MUST have it (but that's another whole long story).  I also did not qualify for any grants or scholarships.   It took me 16 years of hard work, 3 jobs at a time, and a breakdown, but I got that blasted Bachelor's degree, and paid for it all.  And it was SO worth it, too.

Along the way I also had to learn everything else about being an independent adult.  We were taught NOTHING at home.  Not how to budget, not how to dress, not how to eat properly, not how to get or maintain a healthy relationship.  We were well-cared-for kids, but taught nothing whatsoever about being independent adults out in the world.  It was a hard struggle, and probably will never be over, but I did it.  Got the degree, got the good stable job.

A lot of parents and students downunder are probably extremely grateful for HECS/HELP where the government pays the uni for you to attend and you pay them back. But there are other expenses like books.
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: nuit93 on March 05, 2013, 04:47:26 PM
Lynn2000 wrote:

"I think the original story is interesting because, if the scholarship had been obtained, it would have impacted not just the teenager but also his parents--I'm assuming it was a decent amount of money which otherwise his parents had to pay."

The bolded part jumps out at me.  Maybe it's just me, but I never saw any law passed that required a parent to foot the bill for a child's college education.  Sure, it happens all the time, but if my child blew a college scholarship through his own bad decisions, especially after going against or ignoring my advice, I'd have to think long and hard before ponying up the funds to offset it rather than put it right back in his lap to deal with.  Part of learning one's own lessons is dealing with the consequences of those decisions, and so the obvious consequence is that he has to figure out where to come up with the money that the scholarship would otherwise have provided.  If that means he's got to deal with heavier debt to get through school, then that's a life lesson learned and the next time such an opportunity arises I'd bet he'll put in more effort.

I can understand the idea that getting into a good school is extremely important, but at the same time my take on the whole thing is simple.  If my child doesn't put the effort into getting into Harvard including the understanding that outside advice will help his chances, then he probably doesn't belong at Harvard, and the vast majority of people in the world live a full life without a Harvard degree so it's not a life-or-death decision.

Virg

They aren't required to, but if they make a good deal of money and refuse to help their kid out with college in any way it can drastically affect their ability to get financial aid.
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: nuit93 on March 05, 2013, 04:49:53 PM
Maybe it's a byproduct of a more or less dysfunctional upbringing, but did anyone else have the opposite realization when they became adults (i.e. that their parents were WRONG about an awful lot of things)?
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: afbluebelle on March 05, 2013, 10:19:18 PM
Maybe it's a byproduct of a more or less dysfunctional upbringing, but did anyone else have the opposite realization when they became adults (i.e. that their parents were WRONG about an awful lot of things)?

I don't know if it is a byproduct of dysfunction, but it is pretty darn satisfying knowing that your were right! ;D
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: violinp on March 05, 2013, 10:31:38 PM
Maybe it's a byproduct of a more or less dysfunctional upbringing, but did anyone else have the opposite realization when they became adults (i.e. that their parents were WRONG about an awful lot of things)?

I don't necessarily have that reaction, but I do have a better understanding of my parents and their parents, now that I'm an adult and have finally been told about most everything that's happened in my parents' lives. I see how their thinking patterns have shaped mine, and why I have such a guilt complex, especially where family is concerned. My parents had childhoods that make mine look like Norman Rockwell illustrated it, and I've had to go to counseling for depression stemming from more than a decade of bullying.

Mostly, I just feel grateful that my parents were able to get past their incredibly abusive childhoods to raise Cabbage and me in such a way that we look to their marriage and their parenting as admirable goals. I try to let them know as often as possible how much I appreciate and love them, because I know they won't be around forever.  :'(
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: Yvaine on March 05, 2013, 10:46:03 PM
Maybe it's a byproduct of a more or less dysfunctional upbringing, but did anyone else have the opposite realization when they became adults (i.e. that their parents were WRONG about an awful lot of things)?

Yup. There's been a lot of unlearning of messed-up beliefs about life, not to mention all the little random factoids that (it turns out) my dad just made up and taught us in total seriousness. Seems like every few months I find out something he said was utter tosh.
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: GSNW on March 05, 2013, 11:35:11 PM
Regarding paying for a college education, it's certainly not an obligation but it is a wonderful gift for parents to give their children if they are able. 

My parents paid for my BA, my books, and my health/vehicle insurance throughout college, and my dorm room while I wanted to live on campus.  I had to maintain acceptable grades to keep this arrangement up, and when I moved into an apartment, that was on my own dime.  I want to say I appreciated it at the time, but I REALLY appreciate it now, while I am in the final months of my master's degree -- which DH and I are paying for ourselves, while still paying off the loan from HIS graduate degree.  It makes me that much more thankful to my parents for what they were able to do for me!
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: blarg314 on March 06, 2013, 01:31:58 AM

The bed-made-lie concept works best when the consequences match the behaviour. The problem with the university issue is that the consequences can vastly outweigh the behavior.

Blowing a scholarship interview can lead to less money for university. The parents then saying "Sorry, if you don't care enough to try, we're not chipping in the extra" does sound like a logical consequence.  But the ability to get student loans is generally linked to parental income. So if the parents make a good income, but aren't paying for university, it can push the teen from being able to attend university, to not being able to, and that has long term repercussions for career and financial security.

For a kid who wasn't mature enough to make good decisions, and too pig-headed to listen to reasonable advice, I'd be tempted to hold off on the financial support for education until they were mature or experienced enough not to waste it. Let them learn through hard experience on their own income and labour, which can make the lesson stick a lot faster than if they're doing it on the parental tab.
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: Piratelvr1121 on March 06, 2013, 08:04:53 AM
Maybe it's a byproduct of a more or less dysfunctional upbringing, but did anyone else have the opposite realization when they became adults (i.e. that their parents were WRONG about an awful lot of things)?

Yup.  While on one hand there are some things that do make sense, and I can understand some of the frustration they had with me in school, I find I learn from them how not to handle it. 

My father was of the opinion that you are not financially dependent until you owe money to NO ONE.  Have a mortgage? Paying off a loan? You're not financially independent.  ::)  I have never met anyone else who was of that opinion as most people mean it as managing your finances independently.

And my mother was convinced there was something psychologically wrong with me and would armchair diagnose me with things that just made me laugh.  "You have OCD! Aspergers! Bipolar! ADHD!"  ::) Anytime I did something she thought was "odd" she'd say "See? See? That behavior proves it!"  ::)  I did get diagnosed as ADD but a psychiatrist told me it was such a minor case that I didn't really need meds. 

Okay I love Pirates of the Caribbean and think nothing of wearing mismatched socks, and forget what I went upstairs for, but I can think of a lot worse things. ;)
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: bopper on March 06, 2013, 08:09:45 AM
Maybe it's a byproduct of a more or less dysfunctional upbringing, but did anyone else have the opposite realization when they became adults (i.e. that their parents were WRONG about an awful lot of things)?

I don't necessarily have that reaction, but I do have a better understanding of my parents and their parents, now that I'm an adult and have finally been told about most everything that's happened in my parents' lives. I see how their thinking patterns have shaped mine, and why I have such a guilt complex, especially where family is concerned. My parents had childhoods that make mine look like Norman Rockwell illustrated it, and I've had to go to counseling for depression stemming from more than a decade of bullying.

Mostly, I just feel grateful that my parents were able to get past their incredibly abusive childhoods to raise Cabbage and me in such a way that we look to their marriage and their parenting as admirable goals. I try to let them know as often as possible how much I appreciate and love them, because I know they won't be around forever.  :'(

I feel like that about my Mom too...she wasn't perfect, but she did not let the dysfunction of her family be handed down to the next generation.
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: GratefulMaria on March 06, 2013, 08:19:19 AM
Maybe it's a byproduct of a more or less dysfunctional upbringing, but did anyone else have the opposite realization when they became adults (i.e. that their parents were WRONG about an awful lot of things)?

I don't necessarily have that reaction, but I do have a better understanding of my parents and their parents, now that I'm an adult and have finally been told about most everything that's happened in my parents' lives. I see how their thinking patterns have shaped mine, and why I have such a guilt complex, especially where family is concerned. My parents had childhoods that make mine look like Norman Rockwell illustrated it, and I've had to go to counseling for depression stemming from more than a decade of bullying.

Mostly, I just feel grateful that my parents were able to get past their incredibly abusive childhoods to raise Cabbage and me in such a way that we look to their marriage and their parenting as admirable goals. I try to let them know as often as possible how much I appreciate and love them, because I know they won't be around forever.  :'(

I feel like that about my Mom too...she wasn't perfect, but she did not let the dysfunction of her family be handed down to the next generation.

This is both my family and DH's.  Both sets of parents were emotionally and (in my case) physically abusive, but what they tried to give us compared to where they came from is downright heroic.  We keep telling our sons that our family has established a consistent pattern of improving upon what we've been given.  It acknowledges the screw-ups but puts them, we hope, in perspective and with a sense of promise for their own future.

(Regarding the first quote, the main thing we've realized about both my parents and the ILs isn't that they were wrong, but that they were wrong in how they handled it when WE were.)
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: Quiltin Nana on March 06, 2013, 10:06:36 AM


The only time my sister and I put our feet down was when our brother got married in an evening ceremony at a fancy restaurant in Manhattan. We said we weren't going to spend the next 30 years listen to her gripe about the fact that she wasn't in any pictures, when the truth was she refused to dress appropriately then said she was too embarrassed to be in the pictures. We found a very attractive (and loose!) ankle length dress with comfortable but cute flats.

I just had to comment on this.  I used to be on a bowling league about 15 years ago.  One of the bowlers in the league B, had a daughter get married.  Now this daughter was about mid-30's and B had thought she never would get married.  When B showed us the wedding pictures, my mouth dropped, and I floundered for a second.  Along with the beautiful bride in a white wedding gown and the groom and FOB in suits, there was B wearing the same dark blue smock shirt and dark blue pants that she wore to bowling every single week.  Actually since I never saw her outside of bowling, I'm not sure that she ever wore anything different. 
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: Kate on March 06, 2013, 01:12:45 PM
I am still waiting for someone other than myself to advise my 22 yr old daughter, that  clothes one would wear to a night club are not appropriate for the workplace, especially where one is serving the public.. She must be a good employee, they overlook her choices in clothing, or else its just expected these days ..makes me cringe.
 I picked her up at her workplace yesterday...she was wearing high above the knee leather boots, lace stockings and black hot pants (short shorts). I barely restrained myself from asking if she had a new "night job" on the street.
So glad she no longer lives at home and I can be blissfully ignorant most of the time.
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: Yvaine on March 06, 2013, 01:17:30 PM
I am still waiting for someone other than myself to advise my 22 yr old daughter, that  clothes one would wear to a night club are not appropriate for the workplace, especially where one is serving the public.. She must be a good employee, they overlook her choices in clothing, or else its just expected these days ..makes me cringe.
 I picked her up at her workplace yesterday...she was wearing high above the knee leather boots, lace stockings and black hot pants (short shorts). I barely restrained myself from asking if she had a new "night job" on the street.
So glad she no longer lives at home and I can be blissfully ignorant most of the time.

I really think fashion magazines are a big cause of this. If they really reported on "regular" professional clothing, there would be little to write about on an ongoing basis, so they hype up things that sell magazines but don't work in the real workplace unless you're a character on TV. I've read a million "The new sexy in the workplace!" type articles that make it sound like various lingerie-related looks are accepted in workplaces and are what everyone is wearing in the world's fashion centers.
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: Virg on March 06, 2013, 01:37:04 PM
nuit93 wrote:

"They aren't required to, but if they make a good deal of money and refuse to help their kid out with college in any way it can drastically affect their ability to get financial aid."

This issue works in both directions, though.  In the OP's situation, his son was hurting his chances in the interview by refusing to take clothing advice.  If that refusal resulted in a situation where the kid needed to borrow more and had a hard time because mom and dad have a lot of money, then frankly that's his fault and I see it as a good lesson to learn.

blarg314 wrote:

"The problem with the university issue is that the consequences can vastly outweigh the behavior.   Blowing a scholarship interview can lead to less money for university. The parents then saying "Sorry, if you don't care enough to try, we're not chipping in the extra" does sound like a logical consequence.  But the ability to get student loans is generally linked to parental income. So if the parents make a good income, but aren't paying for university, it can push the teen from being able to attend university, to not being able to, and that has long term repercussions for career and financial security."

See above.  There are a number of mistakes that one can make that have long consequences, and on the scale of such things having to skip going to college for a year or two or five still falls pretty far down the list.  Sure, it'll have a significant impact on the teen, but finding out that s/he's not going to be able to afford college in the fall is a lesson that won't be forgotten the next time the interviews come around.  I just don't see having to work for a year before college as such a horrifying consequence that it's to be avoided even at the expense of not letting a nascent adult learn to deal with real life.

Virg
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: Midnight Kitty on March 06, 2013, 01:41:59 PM
I did not go to college right after high school.  There is an almost 7 year gap in my educational history.  During that time I attended the School of Hard Knocks, got hired and fired, married and divorced, and changed my direction at least annually.  By the time I settled down to attend college full time, I was one motivated student.
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: Jones on March 06, 2013, 01:45:44 PM
My parents weren't exactly dysfunctional, but I had the "you were wrong" realization very quickly once I hit 17, and still today I keep learning things that I learned incorrectly the first time. I was kept very naive, and they made a lot of religious-based decisions that I wholeheartedly disagree with now.
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: Redneck Gravy on March 06, 2013, 02:35:45 PM
My parents weren't exactly dysfunctional, but I had the "you were wrong" realization very quickly once I hit 17, and still today I keep learning things that I learned incorrectly the first time. I was kept very naive, and they made a lot of religious-based decisions that I wholeheartedly disagree with now.

I was raised by my grandparents and they were plenty dysfunctional.  My parents were so beyond dysfunctional that I was taken away from them and my grandparents were awarded custody...scary isn't it?

I am stunned that my brothers and I turned out this close to normal - and quite frankly we aren't!  Years of therapy have made me the nut I am today...and believe me when I tell you that I am the most normal of the bunch.  I have a sister that is in a mental institution because she suffers from paranoid schizophrenia and it is so severe that after the last episode the judge committed her with no chance of re-release.   

There is not enough room in eHell to share with you the mental issues our family has had (and some I just don't want others to know).  My biodad was murdered and my biomom was killed in an auto accident when I was a young adult.  90% of my good friends don't even know that, they just "don't" know whatever became of my parents they only know I was raised by my grandparents.  My own children don't know what happened in my childhood - just bits and pieces. 

 
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: LadyDyani on March 06, 2013, 03:29:23 PM
Maybe it's a byproduct of a more or less dysfunctional upbringing, but did anyone else have the opposite realization when they became adults (i.e. that their parents were WRONG about an awful lot of things)?

This.  Of course, I also realized that my 22 year old step mother may have been a little bit stressed when marrying a 33 year old man who already had three kids under five living with him, and moving in with her infant daughter wasn't going to make her life easier. Doesn't make it excusable, but maybe a bit more understandable.
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: Mammavan3 on March 06, 2013, 03:39:21 PM
nuit93 wrote:

"They aren't required to, but if they make a good deal of money and refuse to help their kid out with college in any way it can drastically affect their ability to get financial aid."

This issue works in both directions, though.  In the OP's situation, his son was hurting his chances in the interview by refusing to take clothing advice.  If that refusal resulted in a situation where the kid needed to borrow more and had a hard time because mom and dad have a lot of money, then frankly that's his fault and I see it as a good lesson to learn.

blarg314 wrote:

"The problem with the university issue is that the consequences can vastly outweigh the behavior.   Blowing a scholarship interview can lead to less money for university. The parents then saying "Sorry, if you don't care enough to try, we're not chipping in the extra" does sound like a logical consequence.  But the ability to get student loans is generally linked to parental income. So if the parents make a good income, but aren't paying for university, it can push the teen from being able to attend university, to not being able to, and that has long term repercussions for career and financial security."

See above.  There are a number of mistakes that one can make that have long consequences, and on the scale of such things having to skip going to college for a year or two or five still falls pretty far down the list.  Sure, it'll have a significant impact on the teen, but finding out that s/he's not going to be able to afford college in the fall is a lesson that won't be forgotten the next time the interviews come around.  I just don't see having to work for a year before college as such a horrifying consequence that it's to be avoided even at the expense of not letting a nascent adult learn to deal with real life.

Virg

The employment situation in the U.S. is still quite bleak. I don't know of too many HS graduates who can land a job that would pay enough to save the minimum of $60-80,000 it costs to attend college in the U.S. today, let alone working for a year and being able to do so.

Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: jaxsue on March 06, 2013, 04:34:02 PM
There's nothing wrong with paying for a kid's college education, but there is not a parental failure if kids pay for their own. In my case, I was expected to get at least a BA, and on my own dime.

Me too.  I knew at a very young age that college would be totally on my own, but I MUST have it (but that's another whole long story).  I also did not qualify for any grants or scholarships.   It took me 16 years of hard work, 3 jobs at a time, and a breakdown, but I got that blasted Bachelor's degree, and paid for it all.  And it was SO worth it, too.

Along the way I also had to learn everything else about being an independent adult.  We were taught NOTHING at home.  Not how to budget, not how to dress, not how to eat properly, not how to get or maintain a healthy relationship.  We were well-cared-for kids, but taught nothing whatsoever about being independent adults out in the world.  It was a hard struggle, and probably will never be over, but I did it.  Got the degree, got the good stable job.

The people I respect most are people like yourself. You were not given much to work with, and you've succeeded anyway.
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: PastryGoddess on March 06, 2013, 04:34:50 PM

The employment situation in the U.S. is still quite bleak. I don't know of too many HS graduates who can land a job that would pay enough to save the minimum of $60-80,000 it costs to attend college in the U.S. today, let alone working for a year and being able to do so.

People do go to college while earning minimum wage.  It's not easy, but doable.  It means you may not be able to take a full load of classes, but you can do part time to save money

Loans, grants, and scholarships are available to people who need them and are willing to do the work to get them.  My parents were not able to afford to pay to send me to college and they made that clear to me when I started high school. I knew that I would have to keep my grade up and get as many scholarships as possible to cut down on the cost of school.  I certainly didn't save up $40,000 before I went off to culinary school, but I did work throughout college years and got several scholarships as well. 
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: Lynn2000 on March 06, 2013, 04:43:14 PM
On the subject of paying for your own schooling, my friend Adam had to do that--he learned a lot of things the hard way, not because he was resistant to advice, but because his parents were not very considerate. He was basically chucked out of the house after high school graduation, with little warning, and told he had to pay for college on his own. He got a full-time job at a package delivery place and went to the community college part-time for years--always taking one or two classes every semester. It probably took him ten years to get his BS but he did it. And he always held down a full-time job, got promotions at work because he was so responsible, etc..

Of course if he had gone to college full-time for four years, gotten a BS, then started at work, he would've started at a higher salary and not hit a salary cap due to lacking a degree--one of those things where people who had been working at the company less time were making more money just because they came in with a degree. But that depends on each company's policy.

Although quirky on the surface, he's always been very responsible compared to other people I knew at that age. I think it must have just been inside him somewhere, because it doesn't seem like he was taught much by his parents.
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: Midnight Kitty on March 06, 2013, 04:43:26 PM
The employment situation in the U.S. is still quite bleak. I don't know of too many HS graduates who can land a job that would pay enough to save the minimum of $60-80,000 it costs to attend college in the U.S. today, let alone working for a year and being able to do so.
Does a college degree buy one a much higher starting salary than HS?  I don't have children, so I don't need to worry about putting anyone else through college ... but I have many friends who are parents of HS/college age children.  We have discussed whether buying their child a house would be a better investment.  Then they could afford to live on a "service industry" salary since they wouldn't have a mortgage or rent payment.

IMHO - colleges are pricing themselves out of the market.  People are starting to question whether it is worth nearly $100,000 to get a better starting position.

My degree is a BS in engineering.  The "tech" degrees tend to have a better return on investment since all of my positions required that degree and, 28 years later, the salary starts getting good.  My parents divorced after I graduated from HS and before I started college.  *My* college fund disappeared in the divorce settlement.  I went to community college during the day while working swing shift, then went to community college evenings while I worked day shift, and still had to work part time while attending university full time.  At that, I had student loans that took me 10 years to pay off.  I don't think I would have done it for a degree in the humanities.
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: PastryGoddess on March 06, 2013, 04:49:35 PM
The employment situation in the U.S. is still quite bleak. I don't know of too many HS graduates who can land a job that would pay enough to save the minimum of $60-80,000 it costs to attend college in the U.S. today, let alone working for a year and being able to do so.
Does a college degree buy one a much higher starting salary than HS?  I don't have children, so I don't need to worry about putting anyone else through college ... but I have many friends who are parents of HS/college age children.  We have discussed whether buying their child a house would be a better investment.  Then they could afford to live on a "service industry" salary since they wouldn't have a mortgage or rent payment.

IMHO - colleges are pricing themselves out of the market.  People are starting to question whether it is worth nearly $100,000 to get a better starting position.

My degree is a BS in engineering.  The "tech" degrees tend to have a better return on investment since all of my positions required that degree and, 28 years later, the salary starts getting good.  My parents divorced after I graduated from HS and before I started college.  *My* college fund disappeared in the divorce settlement.  I went to community college during the day while working swing shift, then went to community college evenings while I worked day shift, and still had to work part time while attending university full time.  At that, I had student loans that took me 10 years to pay off.  I don't think I would have done it for a degree in the humanities.

At this point, the degree gets your resume a look.  I've seen so many postings that say you must have a college degree and won't consider anyone without one.  I got an A.A. in Hospitality Mgmt first and then a B.S. in Business Administration.  That degree has been super helpful as people seem to take it more seriously than a B.A. in Business.  I have no idea why though *shrug*
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: Lynn2000 on March 06, 2013, 05:10:29 PM
It really varies so much by field, how much the degree matters. And within that, even the company. But, IME, having a degree gets you above the first "line" or "hurdle," like PastryGoddess mentioned. Also, as I mentioned with my friend Adam, his company policy said that people with a degree start at higher pay, and can max out at higher pay, than someone without a degree, even if that someone has been working there longer. I don't think this is an unusual policy.

A lot depends on the individual still, though. I mean, you can have a four-year degree and be a total jerk with no work ethic who can't hold down a job for more than a month, you know? And I also know several people, especially in computer programming, who never got a college degree but hold down great jobs, because their field/company values skill and experience over schooling, and they are responsible, hard-working employees.

Personally, I value full-time college starting right after high school, and that would be my default. But, if it was looking like I really couldn't afford that (for myself or my child), I would look deeper into my (their) career interests, and see what that specific field was like--if it was a good return on the investment to take out loans, go part-time, etc.. I'm in the sciences and a lot of college kids get summer internships that connect them to companies, who then snap them up as soon as they graduate and will even pay for further schooling. The internships often only take kids who are currently enrolled in college and then hire them only when they have the degree, so if you aren't in school (usually full-time) you miss out on that. I think you just have to do some serious research first about which strategy would be best for you/your kid.
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: TootsNYC on March 06, 2013, 05:13:01 PM
Can we skip the college discussion (both the value of the degree, and the concept of whether parents pay for it), and focus on other sorts of lessons--etiquette ones, especially, since this is an etiquette site--that we've seen young adults learn the hard way?
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: Midnight Kitty on March 06, 2013, 05:46:36 PM
Can we skip the college discussion (both the value of the degree, and the concept of whether parents pay for it), and focus on other sorts of lessons--etiquette ones, especially, since this is an etiquette site--that we've seen young adults learn the hard way?
Oops! Sorry.  I didn't mean to derail the thread.
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: PastryGoddess on March 06, 2013, 07:44:44 PM
Can we skip the college discussion (both the value of the degree, and the concept of whether parents pay for it), and focus on other sorts of lessons--etiquette ones, especially, since this is an etiquette site--that we've seen young adults learn the hard way?

Me either...sorry all   :-[
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: ladyknight1 on March 06, 2013, 08:37:34 PM
Quote
Child will be living in an apt next year. Oy vey. Not only is she a slob, but I don't know how she is going to manage having to pay things like utilities etc. She also loses and breaks things. And I'm guessing neither she nor mom will think it necessary to have rental insurance. I'm not even going there.

Snipped down a bit

If the daughter is a student, her apartment might be covered under her mother's homeowners insurance. The mom would need to check with her company. But renter's insurance is dirt cheap on it's own, I agree it's worth it.

Many apartment complexes require proof of renter's insurance before the lease is finalized.
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: andi on March 06, 2013, 08:56:59 PM
It's funny this thread came up just after we had our 2nd conference with Boo's teacher. He's 8, but having some issues with "listening and obeying" so we wanted to let his teacher know we were aware, working at home and open to suggestions.   During our conversation we talked about how some kids just seemed to be hardwired to learning things the hard way - but once they did the lessons usually stuck. It's hard to watch though.
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: Softly Spoken on March 06, 2013, 09:34:55 PM
Someone asked upthread about whether we have experienced the opposite - where we realize that our parents don't know everything. Sadly, I realized that my parents were horribly out of touch with my reality when I was still in grade school. Things had changed so much from when they were kids that much of their knowledge was outdated, sometimes literally: my dad couldn't help me with my homework. I think both he and I thank deity that I was a naturally bright student. ::)

The hardest lesson I had to learn I am still learning: how to live as an independent adult. My father spoiled and sheltered me, to my detriment. He did not let me stumble, struggle or fail. He did not let me try things on my own. Convrsly, he also was under the mistaken assumption that I would magically know what I needed to know to make it in the world...perhaps through osmosis? ??? ::) He claims now that I "wasn't interested in learning." My retort to that is a) why would I have any interest in learning to do something after he had made it clear he would do it for me anyway (an awesome combo of both enabling and showing lack of faith in my abilities) and b) he wasn't a good teacher.

I have three brothers. Out of the four of us, I think I am in the best place emotionally (the one place I learned my hard lessons was in a counselors office :P). My middle older brother is the most self-sufficient. My mom kicked all three out of the house as they turned 18 - she took a page from the fairy tales and gave them each a certain amount of $$ and let them "seek their fortune." The eldest can't take care of himself because of health issues. The youngest was bailed out by mom every time he needed it, and by grandma when mom wouldn't do it. He will never learn a lesson. Ever. Learning life lessons requires a level of self awareness and humility that he isn't capable of - all he can do is blame everyone around him when things don't go the way he wants.

One of the most painful things about my mother's death is that she is not here to see what I have learned since - I think she would be proud. I think she would even be happy to learn some new things from me. I have to wonder if I could have learned what I have if she hadn't left - I like to think so, but if not it is officially the hardest, cruelest, most painful lesson of all that we all must eventually learn: that we can survive after we lose the ones we love. :(
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: Calistoga on March 07, 2013, 09:26:56 AM
Quote
My question is: Do others have similar stories to share about young adults having to learn what to do and how to behave through experience?

Many!

My DH and I got married when I was 19, and both of us were on our own for the first time...so...yeah, our entire first year of marriage was spent figuring things out on our own.

But in direct relation to the first post, I saw about the same thing happen first hand in a court room.

DH and I had a no-insurance ticket we had to argue (We were driving a fleet car that was covered with fleet insurance so long as our personal car was insured, but the officer didn't believe us, so we had to go tell a judge the same story). Anyone who hasn't been to traffic court may not understand that it's usually a group thing. There were 20 other people who had to have their minor cases judged. One of them was a 17-18 year old boy. Most of the people in the court room had made an effort to dress nicely, and so had this kid- he put a tie on over his non-collared tee shirt. When he went up to see the judge, the judge told him in no uncertain terms that he looked foolish like that. He wasn't any harsher on his sentence, but the kid was embarrassed.
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: dawnfire on March 10, 2013, 09:14:27 PM
Quote
My question is: Do others have similar stories to share about young adults having to learn what to do and how to behave through experience?

Many!

My DH and I got married when I was 19, and both of us were on our own for the first time...so...yeah, our entire first year of marriage was spent figuring things out on our own.

But in direct relation to the first post, I saw about the same thing happen first hand in a court room.

DH and I had a no-insurance ticket we had to argue (We were driving a fleet car that was covered with fleet insurance so long as our personal car was insured, but the officer didn't believe us, so we had to go tell a judge the same story). Anyone who hasn't been to traffic court may not understand that it's usually a group thing. There were 20 other people who had to have their minor cases judged. One of them was a 17-18 year old boy. Most of the people in the court room had made an effort to dress nicely, and so had this kid- he put a tie on over his non-collared tee shirt. When he went up to see the judge, the judge told him in no uncertain terms that he looked foolish like that. He wasn't any harsher on his sentence, but the kid was embarrassed.

he was probably given the advice to wear a tie to court (the advice giver assuming he's wearing a collared shirt)
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: Cami on March 11, 2013, 10:35:45 AM
Someone asked upthread about whether we have experienced the opposite - where we realize that our parents don't know everything. Sadly, I realized that my parents were horribly out of touch with my reality when I was still in grade school. Things had changed so much from when they were kids that much of their knowledge was outdated, sometimes literally: my dad couldn't help me with my homework. I think both he and I thank deity that I was a naturally bright student. ::)


I learned the lesson that my parents were out of touch with reality and didnn't know everything at the age of 5. In my father's case it was because he was terminally self-absorbed and assumed his reality and experiences were universal and current. Any attempt to convince him that anything had changed or people had different experiences was met with stonewalling and denial. That became clear to me in kindergarten when I had an absolutely heinous teacher and my parents refused to believe me when I told them of her behavior. They'd both had wonderful teachers their entire way through school so, ipso facto, ALL teachers are wonderful and I must be lying. My mother finally believed me when the principal called her after an incident in which the teacher's behavior caused me a great deal of physical pain and I started screaming for help and ended up in her office for disrupting the class.  My father still denied the reality of the incident and as a result, I was still kept in that class when I should have been removed ASAP.

When I was about 10 or so, I realized my parents were idiots about money. Unfortunately for them, they never DID learn the hard way and if they  had not died young, I honestly do not know what would have become of them when they were too old to work.  (I currently have another family member who has spent the entirety of her adult life being stupid about money and she's now older than my parents and I am watching curiously from afar to see what's going to happen.)
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: Piratelvr1121 on March 11, 2013, 11:30:19 AM
That's awful!   My parents were both popular or at least well liked to avoid bullying in their respective schools, and it didn't hurt that my dad supposedly reached his adult height of 5'11 by 8th grade.  So when I was bullied and picked on in elementary and middle school, their advice was absolutely worthless.  "Ignore them, they'll leave you alone!" or "If you'd stop being you they wouldn't bully you!" Okay they didn't say that but the message was the same.  Change who you are as a person (bookworm, shy, dreamer, pathetic at contact sports) and they'll like you!!  ::)

In contrast I keep telling my kids to not change who they are cause anyone who doesn't like you for who you are just isn't worth trying to impress.
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: siamesecat2965 on March 12, 2013, 11:20:39 AM
That's awful!   My parents were both popular or at least well liked to avoid bullying in their respective schools, and it didn't hurt that my dad supposedly reached his adult height of 5'11 by 8th grade.  So when I was bullied and picked on in elementary and middle school, their advice was absolutely worthless.  "Ignore them, they'll leave you alone!" or "If you'd stop being you they wouldn't bully you!" Okay they didn't say that but the message was the same.  Change who you are as a person (bookworm, shy, dreamer, pathetic at contact sports) and they'll like you!!  ::)

In contrast I keep telling my kids to not change who they are cause anyone who doesn't like you for who you are just isn't worth trying to impress.

I had some of the same issues. Although my parents, really just my mom, I don't think quite got how bad things were or how miserable I was. I was the same as you, although add to that big, giant coke bottle BIFOCALS from age 5 on, and moving the summer before 4th grade. My mom felt badly for me, and I don't think she quite knew how to deal with it. She'd tell me to try and be "nicer" and so on. I think she really meant well, but now as adults I think she finally gets that kids that age are just mean sometimes, and will find something about someone that's different, and run with it.  And that nothing I could have done would have changed thigns.

Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: ladyknight1 on March 12, 2013, 01:29:17 PM
I was colorblind (as far as race goes) as a child in the 70's and that was unheard of! When I would play with children of another ethnicity during recess, I was scolded and notes were sent home to my family. I didn't understand why playing with everyone was a bad thing, and I refused to stop.

When I couldn't read the board at school, and my parents were finally convinced by the school nurse that I needed glasses, at age 12, I was taken to the mall and bought whichever discount frames and the cheapest lenses. I didn't care, because I could finally see!

When my parents signed me up for college, drove me out of state, and left me without a job or funds to support myself, I learned the hard way that I needed to look out for myself, that my parents weren't there for me anymore.

All of those lessons helped me be who I am today.
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: Softly Spoken on March 12, 2013, 01:55:01 PM
That's awful!   My parents were both popular or at least well liked to avoid bullying in their respective schools, and it didn't hurt that my dad supposedly reached his adult height of 5'11 by 8th grade.  So when I was bullied and picked on in elementary and middle school, their advice was absolutely worthless.  "Ignore them, they'll leave you alone!" or "If you'd stop being you they wouldn't bully you!" Okay they didn't say that but the message was the same.  Change who you are as a person (bookworm, shy, dreamer, pathetic at contact sports) and they'll like you!!  ::)

In contrast I keep telling my kids to not change who they are cause anyone who doesn't like you for who you are just isn't worth trying to impress.

I had some of the same issues. Although my parents, really just my mom, I don't think quite got how bad things were or how miserable I was. I was the same as you, although add to that big, giant coke bottle BIFOCALS from age 5 on, and moving the summer before 4th grade. My mom felt badly for me, and I don't think she quite knew how to deal with it. She'd tell me to try and be "nicer" and so on. I think she really meant well, but now as adults I think she finally gets that kids that age are just mean sometimes, and will find something about someone that's different, and run with it.  And that nothing I could have done would have changed thigns.
My parents were similarly clueless and helpless when it came to my being bullied and ostracized in school. The worst part was no one, including the teachers said what I needed to hear: Its. NOT. okay. They are not just "being kids." I deserved a safe place. I deserved to be respected, and I should have been protected.
I once complained to my dad when he picked me up that a boy had been teasing me. His response? "Oh, that just means he likes you." I didn't respond at the time but deep in my brain my logic centers were screaming "steer pucky!" >:( If I had taken that advice to heart I probably would have ended up in an abusive relationship, because I would have learned that people only mistreat us in a misguided attempt to show how much they care. ::) >:(

Bullying, rudeness, snowflakiness...the biggest life lesson I've learned it that people will do whatever we let them get away with.
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: siamesecat2965 on March 12, 2013, 02:02:09 PM
That's awful!   My parents were both popular or at least well liked to avoid bullying in their respective schools, and it didn't hurt that my dad supposedly reached his adult height of 5'11 by 8th grade.  So when I was bullied and picked on in elementary and middle school, their advice was absolutely worthless.  "Ignore them, they'll leave you alone!" or "If you'd stop being you they wouldn't bully you!" Okay they didn't say that but the message was the same.  Change who you are as a person (bookworm, shy, dreamer, pathetic at contact sports) and they'll like you!!  ::)

In contrast I keep telling my kids to not change who they are cause anyone who doesn't like you for who you are just isn't worth trying to impress.

I had some of the same issues. Although my parents, really just my mom, I don't think quite got how bad things were or how miserable I was. I was the same as you, although add to that big, giant coke bottle BIFOCALS from age 5 on, and moving the summer before 4th grade. My mom felt badly for me, and I don't think she quite knew how to deal with it. She'd tell me to try and be "nicer" and so on. I think she really meant well, but now as adults I think she finally gets that kids that age are just mean sometimes, and will find something about someone that's different, and run with it.  And that nothing I could have done would have changed thigns.
My parents were similarly clueless and helpless when it came to my being bullied and ostracized in school. The worst part was no one, including the teachers said what I needed to hear: Its. NOT. okay. They are not just "being kids." I deserved a safe place. I deserved to be respected, and I should have been protected.
I once complained to my dad when he picked me up that a boy had been teasing me. His response? "Oh, that just means he likes you." I didn't respond at the time but deep in my brain my logic centers were screaming "steer pucky!" >:( If I had taken that advice to heart I probably would have ended up in an abusive relationship, because I would have learned that people only mistreat us in a misguided attempt to show how much they care. ::) >:(

Bullying, rudeness, snowflakiness...the biggest life lesson I've learned it that people will do whatever we let them get away with.

I will say this, and not that I condone it, but back when I was in school, teasing and picking on kids wasn't really considered bullying, like it is now. At least not in my school. I think the mentality WAS its just kids being kids, and as a result, there weren't really consequences. Back then, bullying was actual physical contact, beating up smaller kids etc.  But verbal "bullying" I don't think was really on the radar.

I think today, with everything we see in the media, and what happens to kids are bully and are bullied, there's a lot more awareness, and a lot less tolerance of it.
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: CakeBeret on March 12, 2013, 02:38:17 PM
My parents were similarly clueless and helpless when it came to my being bullied and ostracized in school. The worst part was no one, including the teachers said what I needed to hear: Its. NOT. okay. They are not just "being kids." I deserved a safe place. I deserved to be respected, and I should have been protected.
I once complained to my dad when he picked me up that a boy had been teasing me. His response? "Oh, that just means he likes you." I didn't respond at the time but deep in my brain my logic centers were screaming "steer pucky!" >:( If I had taken that advice to heart I probably would have ended up in an abusive relationship, because I would have learned that people only mistreat us in a misguided attempt to show how much they care. ::) >:(

Bullying, rudeness, snowflakiness...the biggest life lesson I've learned it that people will do whatever we let them get away with.

Yes, I went through the same. If a boy was teasing me, "he must like you". If a girl was teasing me, "she's just jealous". Or perhaps I "misunderstood". Unfortunately my parent figures (mom and older sister) NEVER gave me the support I needed, and as a child I was never able to learn or grow from the experiences. As an adult I've come to realize that by sweeping my concerns under the rug, my parents' lack of caring did as much harm as the bullies.

It's interesting, as I learn more about myself and my feelings, I keep uncovering these little nuggets of "well THAT experience did more harm than good!"
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: Piratelvr1121 on March 12, 2013, 02:57:44 PM
I remember hearing that "That's just teasing to get your attention. They probably like you and don't know any better way to show it without risking rejection!"  And I always thought "No thanks, if that's the only way they know how to show attraction, by hurting someone's feelings, I'm not interested."

I was rather picky through adolescence and that's probably why I didn't have a boyfriend till I was 19. 
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: violinp on March 12, 2013, 03:16:51 PM
I remember hearing that "That's just teasing to get your attention. They probably like you and don't know any better way to show it without risking rejection!"  And I always thought "No thanks, if that's the only way they know how to show attraction, by hurting someone's feelings, I'm not interested."

I was rather picky through adolescence and that's probably why I didn't have a boyfriend till I was 19.

Yeah, boys would ask me out as a joke (trust me, when you and all your friends are laughing, I know it's a joke), and I would turn them down. The boy's friends would always say, "Ohhh! You got turned down by violinp!" because clearly, I'm such a horrible, desperate loser that my standards should be "is showing signs of life." Um, no thanks; I'd rather date a guy who wants to be with me and doesn't treat me like a punchline.
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: Softly Spoken on March 12, 2013, 03:26:45 PM
I remember hearing that "That's just teasing to get your attention. They probably like you and don't know any better way to show it without risking rejection!"  And I always thought "No thanks, if that's the only way they know how to show attraction, by hurting someone's feelings, I'm not interested."

I was rather picky through adolescence and that's probably why I didn't have a boyfriend till I was 19.

Yeah, boys would ask me out as a joke (trust me, when you and all your friends are laughing, I know it's a joke), and I would turn them down. The boy's friends would always say, "Ohhh! You got turned down by violinp!" because clearly, I'm such a horrible, desperate loser that my standards should be "is showing signs of life." Um, no thanks; I'd rather date a guy who wants to be with me and doesn't treat me like a punchline.

Ah yes, the good old "let's be nice to the outcast as a joke" technique. All too familiar with being on the receiving end of that one. That is how you learn the hard way not to take anything anyone says at face value. :-\ ...some things really suck to learn the hard way. :(
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: GreenEyedHawk on March 12, 2013, 03:32:26 PM
I cannot and will not discuss job-hunting difficulties of any kind with my father.  He LOVES to repeat the story of how, when he got his first job, he applied at a shop that told him they weren't hiring.  So he went back and asked again the next day, and the next day, and the next, ad nauseum.  Then one day it snowed, so he showed up and instead of asking "Are you hiring now?" he asked, "Where's your snow shovel?"  And what do you know, they hired him on the spot because he was showing his determination and willingness to work.

I tell him that these days, pulling a stunt like that is likely to do nothing but get you firmly escorted from the property, if not cited for harassment, but he thinks this is a perfectly legit way to go about getting hired.
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: ladyknight1 on March 12, 2013, 03:46:15 PM
Carrie of Mythbusters got her job much the same way. She showed up all the time, and they hired her.
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: Lynn2000 on March 12, 2013, 04:07:34 PM
I cannot and will not discuss job-hunting difficulties of any kind with my father.  He LOVES to repeat the story of how, when he got his first job, he applied at a shop that told him they weren't hiring.  So he went back and asked again the next day, and the next day, and the next, ad nauseum.  Then one day it snowed, so he showed up and instead of asking "Are you hiring now?" he asked, "Where's your snow shovel?"  And what do you know, they hired him on the spot because he was showing his determination and willingness to work.

I tell him that these days, pulling a stunt like that is likely to do nothing but get you firmly escorted from the property, if not cited for harassment, but he thinks this is a perfectly legit way to go about getting hired.

Yeah, that could be my dad.  ::) I mean, if it works, it works, and it makes a good story. But it's far from universally applicable.

I recently went through interviewing and helping to hire a couple of new college-student interns for our university office. One young woman, instead of filling out the application (a Word document) and sending it back to me as an email--as every other person had done, and as the instructions stated--printed it out and walked it into our office by hand. I happened to not be there and the people who met her said it seemed like she really did it hoping to meet me (as opposed to having some bizarre technical reason why she couldn't just email it back).

I was not impressed by this. Not only did she not follow the instructions--kind of vital to show you can do that for this job--she knocked herself out of my "pipeline," which is all electronic. I would've had to do extra work to incorporate her paper into the system, and I just wasn't willing to do that, not when I had over 80 applicants for two positions. (She also never followed up with an email at any point.)

I'm sure she thought she was going to make a good impression by doing something different, but in fact she just got herself knocked out of the running entirely.
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: Piratelvr1121 on March 12, 2013, 07:34:40 PM
I remember hearing that "That's just teasing to get your attention. They probably like you and don't know any better way to show it without risking rejection!"  And I always thought "No thanks, if that's the only way they know how to show attraction, by hurting someone's feelings, I'm not interested."

I was rather picky through adolescence and that's probably why I didn't have a boyfriend till I was 19.

Yeah, boys would ask me out as a joke (trust me, when you and all your friends are laughing, I know it's a joke), and I would turn them down. The boy's friends would always say, "Ohhh! You got turned down by violinp!" because clearly, I'm such a horrible, desperate loser that my standards should be "is showing signs of life." Um, no thanks; I'd rather date a guy who wants to be with me and doesn't treat me like a punchline.

That sounds all too familiar...:P
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: ladyknight1 on March 13, 2013, 08:22:10 AM
I cannot and will not discuss job-hunting difficulties of any kind with my father.  He LOVES to repeat the story of how, when he got his first job, he applied at a shop that told him they weren't hiring.  So he went back and asked again the next day, and the next day, and the next, ad nauseum.  Then one day it snowed, so he showed up and instead of asking "Are you hiring now?" he asked, "Where's your snow shovel?"  And what do you know, they hired him on the spot because he was showing his determination and willingness to work.

I tell him that these days, pulling a stunt like that is likely to do nothing but get you firmly escorted from the property, if not cited for harassment, but he thinks this is a perfectly legit way to go about getting hired.

Yeah, that could be my dad.  ::) I mean, if it works, it works, and it makes a good story. But it's far from universally applicable.

I recently went through interviewing and helping to hire a couple of new college-student interns for our university office. One young woman, instead of filling out the application (a Word document) and sending it back to me as an email--as every other person had done, and as the instructions stated--printed it out and walked it into our office by hand. I happened to not be there and the people who met her said it seemed like she really did it hoping to meet me (as opposed to having some bizarre technical reason why she couldn't just email it back).

I was not impressed by this. Not only did she not follow the instructions--kind of vital to show you can do that for this job--she knocked herself out of my "pipeline," which is all electronic. I would've had to do extra work to incorporate her paper into the system, and I just wasn't willing to do that, not when I had over 80 applicants for two positions. (She also never followed up with an email at any point.)

I'm sure she thought she was going to make a good impression by doing something different, but in fact she just got herself knocked out of the running entirely.

The same goes for not so young adults. My FIL was laid off February 1st. He is a computer simulation technician. You would think that applying for jobs and completing necessary documents would be easier for him, but no. He is constantly complaining that different firms refuse to accept walk-ins and they don't have paper applications to complete! I tried to help, but he was resistant to every idea, so  :-X.
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: Virg on March 13, 2013, 09:58:27 AM
ladyknight1 wrote:

"Carrie of Mythbusters got her job much the same way. She showed up all the time, and they hired her."

She had a job at M5 working with Jamie before the show, so I figured she vectored in that way.  I've never heard about this story.

Virg
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: ladyknight1 on March 13, 2013, 11:47:36 AM
Kari: "She became involved in the show after persistently showing up at Hyneman's M5 Industries workshop in a desire to get hired by his company."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kari_Byron (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kari_Byron)
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: Lynn2000 on March 13, 2013, 02:35:05 PM
I was thinking about this thread today talking with a friend about her husband. He often has to learn things by experience, rather than being told. For example, they went out to a "fancy" restaurant she really likes, and he was determined to order something she didn't think he would like. Normally I'm not much for regulating other adults' food; but it was something like "mashed potatoes" and even though he loves regular, plain, bland mashed potatoes, she was sure this fancy place would prepare them in a fancy way, which he wouldn't be expecting and wouldn't like. She tried to explain this to him, but he insisted on getting the mashed potatoes. And didn't like them. And it was actually his entree, which was somewhat expensive, and now he doesn't like the whole restaurant and doesn't want to go there for a special occasion.

Okay, not the worst scenario in the world, but I just thought it was interesting how some people don't like to take advice even as they get older. And note that his lesson was not, "Maybe I should listen when my wife makes a suggestion," it was, "This restaurant makes food I don't like."
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: PeterM on March 14, 2013, 12:12:31 AM
Kari: "She became involved in the show after persistently showing up at Hyneman's M5 Industries workshop in a desire to get hired by his company."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kari_Byron (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kari_Byron)

I can't help but think that this strategy won't work as well if you don't look like Kari Byron and/or aren't trying to get an on-camera gig on a show aimed largely at male geeks.
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: jaxsue on March 14, 2013, 07:50:04 AM
I was thinking about this thread today talking with a friend about her husband. He often has to learn things by experience, rather than being told. For example, they went out to a "fancy" restaurant she really likes, and he was determined to order something she didn't think he would like. Normally I'm not much for regulating other adults' food; but it was something like "mashed potatoes" and even though he loves regular, plain, bland mashed potatoes, she was sure this fancy place would prepare them in a fancy way, which he wouldn't be expecting and wouldn't like. She tried to explain this to him, but he insisted on getting the mashed potatoes. And didn't like them. And it was actually his entree, which was somewhat expensive, and now he doesn't like the whole restaurant and doesn't want to go there for a special occasion.

Okay, not the worst scenario in the world, but I just thought it was interesting how some people don't like to take advice even as they get older. And note that his lesson was not, "Maybe I should listen when my wife makes a suggestion," it was, "This restaurant makes food I don't like."

This reminds me of my X-DH. He always expected food to be like what he was used to (southern style). I would tell him that we were in a place that didn't serve food that way (say, a french restaurant), but he often didn't get it. One time we were in Williamsburg, VA, and were eating in one of the old taverns. It featured food that the colonists would have eaten. I ordered game pie, which I loved. He ordered oysters, and I told him that they wouldn't be typical southern fried oysters - the description was on the menu. He ordered them anyway and was unhappy that they weren't what he expected.  ???
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: Piratelvr1121 on March 14, 2013, 08:26:03 AM
I know someone who's probably going to have to learn something the hard way.  The guy was a friend of mine and DH's until recently.  He was always a bit irritating but we stayed friends because he could be fun and back in the day he did have times when he could be a good friend.  But as he's gotten older those moments became fewer and further between and he just really started showing his a** more and more. 

This guy's the youngest of 3, the only boy and was diagnosed with diabetes when he was 9 and I get the impression from his behavior that he was always babied because of it.   He's never been expected to take care of himself and I guess I'm biased because my brother is also a type 1 diabetic and while he was moderately babied, he has come to learn to take care of himself and watch what he eats without being told when to check his blood sugar and how to set his pump to manage the blood sugar properly.   When we've eaten with him he's always watchful of what he eats and rarely eats dessert.

His wife has, for the last 14 years they've been together, kept after him and cooked for him and told him when to check his blood sugar and give himself insulin.  And she admits she's enabled him in his refusal to take care of himself and has recently put her foot down and basically told him he's on his own and he acted like she just sentenced him to the electric chair.  ::)  So when he moves out (they're getting a divorce) maybe he'll finally learn.  Even though I don't care for the guy I hope he won't let himself get into a diabetic coma and will actually wake up.
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: Virg on March 14, 2013, 10:02:31 AM
PeterM wrote:

"I can't help but think that this strategy won't work as well if you don't look like Kari Byron and/or aren't trying to get an on-camera gig on a show aimed largely at male geeks."

She's also really good at what she does, which is something that the average "show up and do the job you want" people might not necessarily have.

Virg
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: BabyMama on March 14, 2013, 11:39:46 AM
His wife has, for the last 14 years they've been together, kept after him and cooked for him and told him when to check his blood sugar and give himself insulin.  And she admits she's enabled him in his refusal to take care of himself and has recently put her foot down and basically told him he's on his own and he acted like she just sentenced him to the electric chair.  ::)  So when he moves out (they're getting a divorce) maybe he'll finally learn.  Even though I don't care for the guy I hope he won't let himself get into a diabetic coma and will actually wake up.

My sister was dating a guy with hemophilia. He was a lovely guy and I would have loved for him to be my BIL, but she broke up with him because he refused to take care of himself and she didn't want to be his mom. He'd not take his blood clotting meds because he hated it, and then go out and do something like play touch football or ride a 4-wheeler. She said she didn't want to be there when he had a major accident made worse by his condition that he could have easily avoided.
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: Piratelvr1121 on March 14, 2013, 12:05:06 PM
I have to admit, I would break up with someone who refused to take care of themselves.   I don't have the patience to deal with an adult that refuses to take care of themselves.
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: Lynn2000 on March 14, 2013, 12:33:54 PM
I have to admit, I would break up with someone who refused to take care of themselves.   I don't have the patience to deal with an adult that refuses to take care of themselves.

I think I would, too. I have enough trouble being sensible about myself, I don't want to fall into the position of having to remind someone to eat properly, take their medicine, dress warmly, etc. on a daily basis when they're perfectly competent to do it themselves. If the alternative to me doing this seems to be serious injury or worse, I think I'd rather break it off before I got too attached, sorry to say. If explained, that would be a hard lesson for someone to learn, indeed; but hopefully it would stick.
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: Library Dragon on March 14, 2013, 01:05:56 PM
I cannot and will not discuss job-hunting difficulties of any kind with my father.  He LOVES to repeat the story of how, when he got his first job, he applied at a shop that told him they weren't hiring.  So he went back and asked again the next day, and the next day, and the next, ad nauseum.  Then one day it snowed, so he showed up and instead of asking "Are you hiring now?" he asked, "Where's your snow shovel?"  And what do you know, they hired him on the spot because he was showing his determination and willingness to work.

I tell him that these days, pulling a stunt like that is likely to do nothing but get you firmly escorted from the property, if not cited for harassment, but he thinks this is a perfectly legit way to go about getting hired.

Yeah, that could be my dad.  ::) I mean, if it works, it works, and it makes a good story. But it's far from universally applicable.

I recently went through interviewing and helping to hire a couple of new college-student interns for our university office. One young woman, instead of filling out the application (a Word document) and sending it back to me as an email--as every other person had done, and as the instructions stated--printed it out and walked it into our office by hand. I happened to not be there and the people who met her said it seemed like she really did it hoping to meet me (as opposed to having some bizarre technical reason why she couldn't just email it back).

I was not impressed by this. Not only did she not follow the instructions--kind of vital to show you can do that for this job--she knocked herself out of my "pipeline," which is all electronic. I would've had to do extra work to incorporate her paper into the system, and I just wasn't willing to do that, not when I had over 80 applicants for two positions. (She also never followed up with an email at any point.)

I'm sure she thought she was going to make a good impression by doing something different, but in fact she just got herself knocked out of the running entirely.

POD

I was hiring someone for a position that required them to work 30 hr week flexible schedule--with health benefits and vacation, so it was a desirable position.  The instructions for the application stated that applicants would be notified by email when that we received the application, outlined the timeline, and to address any questions about the position via email. 

There were two main reasons: 
1.  I hate talking on the phone and didn't want to take multiple calls.
2.  I was going on vacation and could still answer questions from applicants. 

There was a woman who came in every day and wanted to talk to me about why she should get the job.  She refused to turn in an application until she talked to me.  The staff explained multiple times that she could email me, but she refused.  When I returned from my trip I had 15 calls on my VM.  She never did turn in an application.  The only real information she gave the staff that she was excited about working a job where she could name her own hours. 

When DH gives our DSs the call them everyday advice I gently remind him that in many cases they are taking themselves out of the running for a job.  Don't irritate the boss before you've even had a chance to be hired! 
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: StuffedGrapeLeaves on March 14, 2013, 01:26:55 PM
I blame all these job applicants disregarding instructions on those magazine articles or career counselors that tell people to be "proactive" and to "think outside the box." 

This happens on the job, too.  I've had staff members, usually younger ones, screwing things up because they're trying to be "proactive" and to "think outside the box."  When you are asked to make a photocopy, just scanning it and then telling me I can just print it out is not being proactive, but being a nuisance.  I wasn't impressed.
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: LadyDyani on March 14, 2013, 01:48:44 PM
I blame all these job applicants disregarding instructions on those magazine articles or career counselors that tell people to be "proactive" and to "think outside the box." 

This happens on the job, too.  I've had staff members, usually younger ones, screwing things up because they're trying to be "proactive" and to "think outside the box."  When you are asked to make a photocopy, just scanning it and then telling me I can just print it out is not being proactive, but being a nuisance.  I wasn't impressed.

How was scanning the document, checking to see if it was scanned correctly, then printing it faster than putting facedown and pressing a button?
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: Redneck Gravy on March 14, 2013, 02:05:42 PM
If I ask you to make a copy - make it darn it!

Don't come back and tell me you have scanned it and I can now print it out myself.  If I had wanted to print it out I would have copied the darn thing to begin with. 

This is one of those things I HATE about working with some people - I asked you to do it, don't half-way do it and then tell me how much easier it is for ME to now do it. 
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: KarenK on March 14, 2013, 02:08:14 PM
I blame all these job applicants disregarding instructions on those magazine articles or career counselors that tell people to be "proactive" and to "think outside the box." 

This happens on the job, too.  I've had staff members, usually younger ones, screwing things up because they're trying to be "proactive" and to "think outside the box."  When you are asked to make a photocopy, just scanning it and then telling me I can just print it out is not being proactive, but being a nuisance.  I wasn't impressed.

How was scanning the document, checking to see if it was scanned correctly, then printing it faster than putting facedown and pressing a button?

That's just the point. The "Go-Getter" was expecting StuffedGrapeLeaves to print it out. I assume from an e-mail attachment. So "Go-Getter" was actually just adding a step, but for SGL, not him or herself.
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: StuffedGrapeLeaves on March 14, 2013, 02:17:19 PM
I blame all these job applicants disregarding instructions on those magazine articles or career counselors that tell people to be "proactive" and to "think outside the box." 

This happens on the job, too.  I've had staff members, usually younger ones, screwing things up because they're trying to be "proactive" and to "think outside the box."  When you are asked to make a photocopy, just scanning it and then telling me I can just print it out is not being proactive, but being a nuisance.  I wasn't impressed.

How was scanning the document, checking to see if it was scanned correctly, then printing it faster than putting facedown and pressing a button?

That's just the point. The "Go-Getter" was expecting StuffedGrapeLeaves to print it out. I assume from an e-mail attachment. So "Go-Getter" was actually just adding a step, but for SGL, not him or herself.

Yes, exactly.  I told the Go-Getter (I like the name!) to photocopy the document.  She came back with the original document and triumphantly said that she scanned it, so now we have an electronic copy.  OK, but where's my physical copy?  Then she said, "Oh, I sent it to you over e-mail, so you can print it out!"  I told her to go back and make the copy, and next time to please follow instructions.  Her response was that she was just being proactive, and she was not happy that I did not appreciate it.  She didn't last long on the job. 
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: MrTango on March 14, 2013, 02:28:13 PM
I blame all these job applicants disregarding instructions on those magazine articles or career counselors that tell people to be "proactive" and to "think outside the box." 

This happens on the job, too.  I've had staff members, usually younger ones, screwing things up because they're trying to be "proactive" and to "think outside the box."  When you are asked to make a photocopy, just scanning it and then telling me I can just print it out is not being proactive, but being a nuisance.  I wasn't impressed.

How was scanning the document, checking to see if it was scanned correctly, then printing it faster than putting facedown and pressing a button?

That's just the point. The "Go-Getter" was expecting StuffedGrapeLeaves to print it out. I assume from an e-mail attachment. So "Go-Getter" was actually just adding a step, but for SGL, not him or herself.

Yes, exactly.  I told the Go-Getter (I like the name!) to photocopy the document.  She came back with the original document and triumphantly said that she scanned it, so now we have an electronic copy.  OK, but where's my physical copy?  Then she said, "Oh, I sent it to you over e-mail, so you can print it out!"  I told her to go back and make the copy, and next time to please follow instructions.  Her response was that she was just being proactive, and she was not happy that I did not appreciate it.  She didn't last long on the job.

No surprise there.

If she was really a Go-Getter, she'd have asked "While I'm at the copy machine, would you like me to scan it also?"
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: LadyDyani on March 14, 2013, 02:35:49 PM
If she was really a Go-Getter, she'd have asked "While I'm at the copy machine, would you like me to scan it also?"

Agreed.  If it had been me, I would have made the copy, scanned it as well, and when asked to make a copy in the future, printed it off.
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: Winterlight on March 15, 2013, 10:39:09 AM
I have to admit, I would break up with someone who refused to take care of themselves.   I don't have the patience to deal with an adult that refuses to take care of themselves.

Agreed. I have medical issues myself, but I manage them. And if I choose to do something like eat a potential migraine trigger, then I deal with it and don't make it someone else's problem.
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way
Post by: Lynda_34 on March 15, 2013, 11:48:58 AM
That is probably when I would have said "Throw a dressier outfit in the car just in case".

I'd have just put one in the car and had it available.
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: Lynda_34 on March 15, 2013, 12:13:25 PM
DS isn't like this.  He will usually ask me for advice then make his own decision based on what advice he's been given.

DH on the other hand?  Ugh.  The man has four polo shirts and two pairs of khaki's (olive green or black) that serve as his uniform.  Otherwise it's T-shirts and his one pair of jeans (honestly, how can anyone survive with only one pair of jeans).

The other day I mentioned that the burnt orange polo shirt and green khaki combination really made him look like a pumpkin.  Of course, I can't know what I'm talking about.  He looks fiiiiiiine.

Until he saw the 85-year-old neighbor wearing the identical outfit!   ;D

Just one question.  Did you loan the 85 yo the clothes? ;)
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: Lynda_34 on March 17, 2013, 12:16:52 PM

[/quote]At this point, the degree gets your resume a look.  I've seen so many postings that say you must have a college degree and won't consider anyone without one.  I got an A.A. in Hospitality Mgmt first and then a B.S. in Business Administration.  That degree has been super helpful as people seem to take it more seriously than a B.A. in Business.  I have no idea why though *shrug*
[/quote]

You just gave me heart failure.  My daughter did exactly the same track you did.  I do mention her occasionally in this forum.
The Hospitality degree gives you focus and a skill. The BA is more vague.

I was a single mother of two climbing out of debt due to a divorce and told her if she wanted college it would have to be the community college and live at home she finished that in two and a half years. Yes her degree is in hospitality.  Her final pastry project was a wedding cake which held reign on the top of the entertainment center for an entire summer. (It was frosted cake forms) Then in the humidity of August it melted.  She told me I could throw it out. 

She then decided to go away and live in an apartment with her cousin and get her business degree. She has worked since she was 16 and has an excellent job on the east coast in food management.

She also has a small student loan.  I paid her tuition every semester and told her if she dropped a course she would have to reimburse me for it.  She did get a D in something and in hindsight I wish she'd dropped it but she didn't discuss it with me at the time.

It is so hard to stand by and help your child make decisions or make them for them when you know so much can hang in the balance.

My son on the other hand, although intelligent didn't always have the best judgement.  He was caught drinking in middle school at lunch and I held him back a year so he could get into a good technical high school.  After graduation he diddly bopped around for a while and is finally settling down and been offered an apprenticeship as a machinist.
 
The scariest thing is when you're making decisions that will totally affect someone else's life.
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: PastryGoddess on March 17, 2013, 04:49:33 PM


At this point, the degree gets your resume a look.  I've seen so many postings that say you must have a college degree and won't consider anyone without one.  I got an A.A. in Hospitality Mgmt first and then a B.S. in Business Administration.  That degree has been super helpful as people seem to take it more seriously than a B.A. in Business.  I have no idea why though *shrug*


You just gave me heart failure.  My daughter did exactly the same track you did.  I do mention her occasionally in this forum.
The Hospitality degree gives you focus and a skill. The BA is more vague.

I was a single mother of two climbing out of debt due to a divorce and told her if she wanted college it would have to be the community college and live at home she finished that in two and a half years. Yes her degree is in hospitality.  Her final pastry project was a wedding cake which held reign on the top of the entertainment center for an entire summer. (It was frosted cake forms) Then in the humidity of August it melted.  She told me I could throw it out. 

She then decided to go away and live in an apartment with her cousin and get her business degree. She has worked since she was 16 and has an excellent job on the east coast in food management.

She also has a small student loan.  I paid her tuition every semester and told her if she dropped a course she would have to reimburse me for it.  She did get a D in something and in hindsight I wish she'd dropped it but she didn't discuss it with me at the time.

It is so hard to stand by and help your child make decisions or make them for them when you know so much can hang in the balance.

My son on the other hand, although intelligent didn't always have the best judgement.  He was caught drinking in middle school at lunch and I held him back a year so he could get into a good technical high school.  After graduation he diddly bopped around for a while and is finally settling down and been offered an apprenticeship as a machinist.
 
The scariest thing is when you're making decisions that will totally affect someone else's life.


It helped that I moved 700 miles away from family and was forced to rely on myself for everything.  That helped me grow up really fast :)  I still work in the event/travel industry but not in the kitchen.  One of the things that having that hospitality degree has helped with is to keep me from panicking when things go wrong.  I have learned to have Options A-F available and I don't let anyone see me sweat. Working for psychotic chefs will do that to ya :)
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: Piratelvr1121 on March 17, 2013, 08:12:52 PM
My DH didn't finish college so he doesn't have a degree but he was an active duty Marine for 5 years in a technical field and that experience has helped him get his last job (which hired him less than a month after he got out of the service) and his current one.  So there are some jobs that will consider military training, especially as they get experience in addition to training.
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: ladyknight1 on March 18, 2013, 09:49:46 AM
One of the women I work with considers herself the Queen Bee of our office and her family.

She has two children in college, and rides them constantly. Both of them work, one is about to graduate and already has a job. The younger one just started college in the past fall semester, and has done ok, but nothing to proclaim about. QB wants the younger one to take two summer A classes, to get the summer classes out of the way. Since she has mentioned this to me (we are co-workers, not friends) and every other person who works in the office, I suggested she take one summer A and one summer B, because summer classes are very intense. You can't miss a day of school work and keep grades up. QB didn't like that suggestion, but it is not her that will be suffering through a very heavy course load and working!

I feel so sorry for both of QB's kids!
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: MrTango on March 18, 2013, 10:13:24 AM
One of the women I work with considers herself the Queen Bee of our office and her family.

She has two children in college, and rides them constantly. Both of them work, one is about to graduate and already has a job. The younger one just started college in the past fall semester, and has done ok, but nothing to proclaim about. QB wants the younger one to take two summer A classes, to get the summer classes out of the way. Since she has mentioned this to me (we are co-workers, not friends) and every other person who works in the office, I suggested she take one summer A and one summer B, because summer classes are very intense. You can't miss a day of school work and keep grades up. QB didn't like that suggestion, but it is not her that will be suffering through a very heavy course load and working!

I feel so sorry for both of QB's kids!

And once Queen Bee's kids finish college and are no longer financially dependent on her, she's probably going to whine about why they won't talk to her anymore.
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: ladyknight1 on March 18, 2013, 12:46:08 PM
She constantly complains that the kids don't contribute enough to her budget, since they live with her, but then wants them to take more classes.
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: siamesecat2965 on March 18, 2013, 01:26:03 PM
One of the women I work with considers herself the Queen Bee of our office and her family.

She has two children in college, and rides them constantly. Both of them work, one is about to graduate and already has a job. The younger one just started college in the past fall semester, and has done ok, but nothing to proclaim about. QB wants the younger one to take two summer A classes, to get the summer classes out of the way. Since she has mentioned this to me (we are co-workers, not friends) and every other person who works in the office, I suggested she take one summer A and one summer B, because summer classes are very intense. You can't miss a day of school work and keep grades up. QB didn't like that suggestion, but it is not her that will be suffering through a very heavy course load and working!

I feel so sorry for both of QB's kids!

And once Queen Bee's kids finish college and are no longer financially dependent on her, she's probably going to whine about why they won't talk to her anymore.

She sounds like my one boss. her child is a freshman in college, and each step of the way in HS, college app process etc. she has been on her to get going, and do whatever needed to be done WELL in advance of when they were actually due. the poor kid doesn't get a second to breathe
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: Cutenoob on March 18, 2013, 04:59:22 PM
If she was really a Go-Getter, she'd have asked "While I'm at the copy machine, would you like me to scan it also?"

Agreed.  If it had been me, I would have made the copy, scanned it as well, and when asked to make a copy in the future, printed it off.
upthread from here..

Since I'm kind of naive, I would have scanned it for elec copy (assuming there's a folder to go send it to) and done a copy for her. But would also have mentioned there's an electronic copy. And might have emailed it, thinking, ok, that copy? That one I'd learn from :)
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: Cutenoob on March 18, 2013, 05:10:07 PM
Another story:
I was at a laundromat doing my clothes doot de doot, and ran into a kid who was about 20+. He was on the phone with a buddy, looking at his detergent like it was alien, and just not seeing the connection. I asked if he needed help, he said yes. Told him to get off the phone so he could listen, and he did. Then I turned the bottle around and said these instructions are what you need, but put clothes in. Measure detergent by size of pile in the machine. Put soap in this slot here. Wash. Dry in dryers over there. Then I asked him don't you know how to do this? He said no, when I go home my mom always does my clothes. *facepalm*

My parents were emotionally/verbally abusive yutzes. But I learned a lot of life skills, washing clothes. Ironing. The great concept of buying clothes you didn't iron :). Cooking. Dishes (dishwasher, hand wash). Vacuum, dusting, the room DOES look cleaner if there's no food/crud bits on the floor. How to bargain and be thrifty/cheap (recycle aluminum, trade skills [I make fudge, you fix thingy]) These come in handy; but I wish I'd had more money management training.
But I never did learn how to cook BROWN rice. (I cannot get it to work worth a phooey.)
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: LadyDyani on March 18, 2013, 05:33:15 PM

But I never did learn how to cook BROWN rice. (I cannot get it to work worth a phooey.)

Good recipe:  http://www.onegoodthingbyjillee.com/2013/02/foolproof-oven-baked-brown-rice.html

The brown rice turns out well.
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: bloo on March 18, 2013, 05:37:52 PM
...trade skills [I make fudge, you fix thingy])

That is soooooo cute and funny, Cutenoob! ;D
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: Katana_Geldar on March 18, 2013, 06:19:44 PM
It might be easier to do everything for kids, but it's not better for them in the long run. I was washing my own clothes since I was in 5th grade.
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: MommyPenguin on March 18, 2013, 06:52:30 PM
I tried to teach my oldest (6) to do the laundry, including things like putting it in and switching it to the dryer.  Unfortunately, the washer is just too deep for her to effectively reach the clothes.  I *could* have her put stuff in the washer and get stuff out of the dryer.  But it's also hard for her to carry a full load up the basement stairs.  So right now I just have her fold loads of kid stuff and carry it in a small, kid-sized laundry basket, up the stairs by person.  She still puts stuff in the wrong people's drawers *all* the time, though, drives me crazy.  But yeah, she's 6.  By the time she's 18, I would *hope* we'd have all these things ironed out.

It does seem like people want children to be less independent nowadays, though.  Our local children's agency recommends that children not be out of line of sight, including in their own backyard, until they're 8 years old.
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: MrTango on March 18, 2013, 06:56:12 PM
I tried to teach my oldest (6) to do the laundry, including things like putting it in and switching it to the dryer.  Unfortunately, the washer is just too deep for her to effectively reach the clothes.  I *could* have her put stuff in the washer and get stuff out of the dryer.  But it's also hard for her to carry a full load up the basement stairs.  So right now I just have her fold loads of kid stuff and carry it in a small, kid-sized laundry basket, up the stairs by person.  She still puts stuff in the wrong people's drawers *all* the time, though, drives me crazy.  But yeah, she's 6.  By the time she's 18, I would *hope* we'd have all these things ironed out.

It does seem like people want children to be less independent nowadays, though.  Our local children's agency recommends that children not be out of line of sight, including in their own backyard, until they're 8 years old.

Pun intended?  :P

When I was 6 or so, my mom taught me how to sort and fold socks.
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: Katana_Geldar on March 18, 2013, 07:00:17 PM
8 years old? That's when my Dad would catch up on sleep in the car while we ran around the park on weekends.
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: PastryGoddess on March 18, 2013, 07:06:21 PM
8 years old.  I was allowed to walk around the corner to the store at 8 years old. 
If I remember correctly, the rules were
Go Outside
Come in at lunch
Go outside
When the street lignts came on, you need to come home

Backyard rules:
Quiet=Trouble
Screaming= Everything is fine
Crying=You better be bleeding
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: Katana_Geldar on March 18, 2013, 07:16:53 PM
Backyard rules:
Quiet=Trouble
Screaming= Everything is fine
Crying=You better be bleeding

My granddad's wide could ever get this. Se was forever telling us to be quiet while in the living room. For kids, quiet = something is going on.
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: Piratelvr1121 on March 18, 2013, 07:37:50 PM
At 8 my boys were allowed out alone to visit their friend's houses but had to stay on our block.  When I was 8 I had boundaries but was allowed to go outside by myself and some of my friends lived right across the street.
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: KarenK on March 18, 2013, 08:57:11 PM

But I never did learn how to cook BROWN rice. (I cannot get it to work worth a phooey.)

Good recipe:  http://www.onegoodthingbyjillee.com/2013/02/foolproof-oven-baked-brown-rice.html

The brown rice turns out well.

Two words - rice steamer. Perfect every time.
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: Cutenoob on March 18, 2013, 11:47:40 PM

But I never did learn how to cook BROWN rice. (I cannot get it to work worth a phooey.)

Good recipe:  http://www.onegoodthingbyjillee.com/2013/02/foolproof-oven-baked-brown-rice.html

The brown rice turns out well.

Two words - rice steamer. Perfect every time.
I grew up with a rice cooker, but only did white rice. I moved out and stopped eating rice for 20 years. Not kidding. Eating it more often, but not worth the $ for rice cooker. grr
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: amandaelizabeth on March 19, 2013, 02:22:03 AM
When our daughter was about 14 she went through a period of moaning about the groceries I bought, the shampoo etc that I choose.  Why didn't I buy the heavily advertised brand etc.  We tried to explain how much we had in our budget for things and that we bought what we could afford but she just didn't seem to get it.  So over the long holidays, about 7 weeks here, I gave her the money I would have spent on these things, and said that she could take over the house and that any money she did not spend she could keep.  There were a few rules such as we had to have enough food, no alcohol was to be bought and that the only food the cat would eat could not be changed.
You should have seen the difference.  Supermarket own brands, generic toiletries, and my husband swears that she stood outside the loo counting how many square of loo paper were being used. Some of the early meals were rather rough but they got better, and we did run out of a few things and she learnt that popping down to the dairy was quick but expensive. We got nagged narrow about our wastage and 'do you know how much that cost?' seemed to be heard all time.  But and it was a big but she saved us a lot of money, and taught me a few tricks on buying better.  Now at 35 she makes every penny squeak.  So it is worth setting up experiences for your teenagers to teach them life lessons.
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: DynoMite on March 19, 2013, 07:25:09 AM
When our daughter was about 14 she went through a period of moaning about the groceries I bought, the shampoo etc that I choose.  Why didn't I buy the heavily advertised brand etc.  We tried to explain how much we had in our budget for things and that we bought what we could afford but she just didn't seem to get it.  So over the long holidays, about 7 weeks here, I gave her the money I would have spent on these things, and said that she could take over the house and that any money she did not spend she could keep.  There were a few rules such as we had to have enough food, no alcohol was to be bought and that the only food the cat would eat could not be changed.
You should have seen the difference.  Supermarket own brands, generic toiletries, and my husband swears that she stood outside the loo counting how many square of loo paper were being used. Some of the early meals were rather rough but they got better, and we did run out of a few things and she learnt that popping down to the dairy was quick but expensive. We got nagged narrow about our wastage and 'do you know how much that cost?' seemed to be heard all time.  But and it was a big but she saved us a lot of money, and taught me a few tricks on buying better.  Now at 35 she makes every penny squeak.  So it is worth setting up experiences for your teenagers to teach them life lessons.

Awesome!!
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: Slartibartfast on March 19, 2013, 08:26:35 AM

But I never did learn how to cook BROWN rice. (I cannot get it to work worth a phooey.)

Good recipe:  http://www.onegoodthingbyjillee.com/2013/02/foolproof-oven-baked-brown-rice.html

The brown rice turns out well.

Two words - rice steamer. Perfect every time.
I grew up with a rice cooker, but only did white rice. I moved out and stopped eating rice for 20 years. Not kidding. Eating it more often, but not worth the $ for rice cooker. grr

My rice cooker is a white plastic thing that goes in the microwave and cost less than ten bucks.  It's worth looking into, if you want to give it a shot - it does beautiful rice!
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: ladyknight1 on March 19, 2013, 08:47:26 AM
We see great examples of this twice a year, when Cub Scouts advance to Boy Scouts. Mom may have packed her son's bags for Cub Scouts, but for Boy Scouts, they are supposed to pack their own bags and take responsibility. At least twice a year, we will hear a new Scout complain that his mom/dad didn't pack whatever item.

We are trying to teach self-sufficiency!
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: magicdomino on March 19, 2013, 09:43:28 AM

But I never did learn how to cook BROWN rice. (I cannot get it to work worth a phooey.)

I grew up with a rice cooker, but only did white rice. I moved out and stopped eating rice for 20 years. Not kidding. Eating it more often, but not worth the $ for rice cooker. grr

What I love about my rice cooker is that it is programable.  I put the brown (or white, or wild, or steel-cut oatmeal) rice and water in when I think of it, set the timer for up to 12 hours ahead, and leave it.  No more forgetting the rice until dinner is almost done.
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: Lynn2000 on March 19, 2013, 10:42:48 AM
My friend is teaching her 18-month-old to help around the house, even with the laundry. Like he sits on the counter and drops things into the washer as she hands them to him, or walks five feet to put his shoes away. He is definitely more of a hindrance than a help with chores at the moment, but she thinks it's important for him to get used to the feeling of doing things around the house--that stuff doesn't just magically get done by the elves while he plays. Of course it will take a while before we see whether this has paid off...
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: jaxsue on March 19, 2013, 11:04:39 AM
My friend is teaching her 18-month-old to help around the house, even with the laundry. Like he sits on the counter and drops things into the washer as she hands them to him, or walks five feet to put his shoes away. He is definitely more of a hindrance than a help with chores at the moment, but she thinks it's important for him to get used to the feeling of doing things around the house--that stuff doesn't just magically get done by the elves while he plays. Of course it will take a while before we see whether this has paid off...

I made my DS's help with housework as soon as they could walk. Of course, it was age appropriate, such as putting a few items in the toy basket. When they got older it wasn't difficult to get them to clean up, at least in the common areas. I had friends with kids the same age. They believed that there was a "magic age" at which they could train their kids to help with housework/yard work. Problem is, the kids were 8+ years old and had not grown up with the concept of helping. Cue threats, fights, and eventually the parent is worn down and does the work themselves.  ::)
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: Midnight Kitty on March 19, 2013, 11:36:31 AM
I was "mommy's little helper" and learned all about laundry, cooking, shopping, etc. from such an early age I don't remember not doing it.  I'm old enough to remember turning the crank on the wringer.

My poor older brother wasn't taught the life skills necessary to live independently.  Apparently it was assumed his wife would take care of all that.  We lived together when he got out of the military and I took care of him.  When I moved out to get married (& take care of my husband), he lived on peanut butter and frozen orange juice.  He only needed one spoon and one glass. >:D

You might think he would learn to do his own laundry, cooking, shopping, etc. but he found a wife to take care of all those necessities. ::)
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: Piratelvr1121 on March 19, 2013, 11:42:41 AM
My friend is teaching her 18-month-old to help around the house, even with the laundry. Like he sits on the counter and drops things into the washer as she hands them to him, or walks five feet to put his shoes away. He is definitely more of a hindrance than a help with chores at the moment, but she thinks it's important for him to get used to the feeling of doing things around the house--that stuff doesn't just magically get done by the elves while he plays. Of course it will take a while before we see whether this has paid off...

I made my DS's help with housework as soon as they could walk. Of course, it was age appropriate, such as putting a few items in the toy basket. When they got older it wasn't difficult to get them to clean up, at least in the common areas. I had friends with kids the same age. They believed that there was a "magic age" at which they could train their kids to help with housework/yard work. Problem is, the kids were 8+ years old and had not grown up with the concept of helping. Cue threats, fights, and eventually the parent is worn down and does the work themselves.  ::)

I've been working with my 16 month old to learn to pick things up.  At the moment, since we don't have a toybox for him, we store his toys in the port-a-crib, and he's good at carrying them over and dropping them into the port-a-crib as I hand them to him.  We did that today before we went for a walk, as I'm trying to lay the groundwork for "We pick up our things before we move on to something else."

Now, that said, when I had him put his sorting shapes into the bucket he did great...then started to take them back out.  He also likes to pick up the broom, which is about twice as tall as he is, and "sweep" and likes to "vacuum" with the corn popper toy. http://us.ebid.net/for-sale/075380020115-corn-popper-push-toys-for-toddlers-97426186.htm?from=googleshop_us&gclid=CJf37cucibYCFYbc4AodCBYAQA
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: TootsNYC on March 19, 2013, 12:11:24 PM
When our daughter was about 14 she went through a period of moaning about the groceries I bought, the shampoo etc that I choose.  Why didn't I buy the heavily advertised brand etc.  We tried to explain how much we had in our budget for things and that we bought what we could afford but she just didn't seem to get it.  So over the long holidays, about 7 weeks here, I gave her the money I would have spent on these things, and said that she could take over the house and that any money she did not spend she could keep.  There were a few rules such as we had to have enough food, no alcohol was to be bought and that the only food the cat would eat could not be changed.
You should have seen the difference.  Supermarket own brands, generic toiletries, and my husband swears that she stood outside the loo counting how many square of loo paper were being used. Some of the early meals were rather rough but they got better, and we did run out of a few things and she learnt that popping down to the dairy was quick but expensive. We got nagged narrow about our wastage and 'do you know how much that cost?' seemed to be heard all time.  But and it was a big but she saved us a lot of money, and taught me a few tricks on buying better.  Now at 35 she makes every penny squeak.  So it is worth setting up experiences for your teenagers to teach them life lessons.

Awesome!!
[/quote

I am going to steal this idea!

I didn't so something this "obvious" with my DD, but I've found that she really doesn't like to spend money unless she perceives that she will get value from it.
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: TootsNYC on March 19, 2013, 12:14:18 PM
My friend is teaching her 18-month-old to help around the house, even with the laundry. Like he sits on the counter and drops things into the washer as she hands them to him, or walks five feet to put his shoes away. He is definitely more of a hindrance than a help with chores at the moment, but she thinks it's important for him to get used to the feeling of doing things around the house--that stuff doesn't just magically get done by the elves while he plays. Of course it will take a while before we see whether this has paid off...

I read a survey that showed that the kids of at-home moms did the MOST chores.

The kids of single moms did the 2nd most.

and the kids of 2 working parents did the least. I think a big part of it is that it takes a lot of TIME to teach kids *how* to do chores, and it takes a lot of time and energy to *enforce* that they do chores. And at-home moms have more time and energy for that; they simply have more time and energy to spend in their homes.

Also, I think at-home moms see "teaching my kids" as a MAJOR reason they even *are* at home, and so they do this; it's their mission.

Parents who both work see their major role as "providing for" their children.
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: Piratelvr1121 on March 19, 2013, 12:27:50 PM
Before I had any kids, MIL told me that her approach to child rearing is you're raising a future adult to be independent when they reach 18.   Someone else said when you have a son, it's best to keep in mind that you're raising him to be a future husband. 

So with both of those in mind I'm striving to raise my sons to be good men, respectful of women, and not overly dependent on others.
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: magicdomino on March 19, 2013, 01:42:53 PM
My mother used to refer to men who can't or won't do household chores as "chickens who'd starve beside a pile of corn."  This was not a complement.  All of us, boys and girls, learned some basic cooking, and we learned how to do laundry when we started dropping clothes on the floor instead of putting them away properly.   :)
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: TootsNYC on March 19, 2013, 01:47:47 PM
Another story:
I was at a laundromat doing my clothes doot de doot, and ran into a kid who was about 20+. He was on the phone with a buddy, looking at his detergent like it was alien, and just not seeing the connection. I asked if he needed help,

yay for you!
Quote
he said yes.


yay for him! (and yay for you, because you must have asked it in a way that made him feel safe saying yes

Quote
Told him to get off the phone so he could listen, and he did.

yay for him

Quote
Then I turned the bottle around and said these instructions are what you need,

Quadruple yay for you! So many people don't realize that there ARE instructions written down; they're surrounded by people who already know how to do stuff, and they feel really stupid because they don't. But there are instructions on the detergent bottle.

My DD needs to get all her banking stuff under her own control, and she gets crabby not knowing already how to do that. I pointed out to her, there are really nice people at banks who will explain anything she needs. They are right there hoping to be asked.

Quote
but put clothes in. Measure detergent by size of pile in the machine. Put soap in this slot here. Wash. Dry in dryers over there. Then I asked him don't you know how to do this? He said no, when I go home my mom always does my clothes.

I can't say I blame him horribly--even if he were mildly inclined to learn, it's quite possible his mom wants to deal with it all herself because it's easier for her.
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: Softly Spoken on March 19, 2013, 01:49:07 PM
*snip*

Now, that said, when I had him put his sorting shapes into the bucket he did great...then started to take them back out.  He also likes to pick up the broom, which is about twice as tall as he is, and "sweep" and likes to "vacuum" with the corn popper toy. http://us.ebid.net/for-sale/075380020115-corn-popper-push-toys-for-toddlers-97426186.htm?from=googleshop_us&gclid=CJf37cucibYCFYbc4AodCBYAQA
I had that ball popper "vacuum simulator" toy and loved it...and I hate vacuuming. I had a cute little broom that was just my size when I was little - now the real one is too big and hurts my hands.  :( Why can't adult stuff be more fun? I want my hoover to be colorful and play music while I use it! And while I'm ranting, I had a kid I babysat tell me he got chocolate chip cookie dough flavored tooth cleaner at the dentist  :o buh-but why do the grown-ups have to just have mint? :'( Where's my banana flavor tooth polish?  >:( *grumble grumble darn lucky kids*
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: Piratelvr1121 on March 19, 2013, 02:00:40 PM
*snip*

Now, that said, when I had him put his sorting shapes into the bucket he did great...then started to take them back out.  He also likes to pick up the broom, which is about twice as tall as he is, and "sweep" and likes to "vacuum" with the corn popper toy. http://us.ebid.net/for-sale/075380020115-corn-popper-push-toys-for-toddlers-97426186.htm?from=googleshop_us&gclid=CJf37cucibYCFYbc4AodCBYAQA
I had that ball popper "vacuum simulator" toy and loved it...and I hate vacuuming. I had a cute little broom that was just my size when I was little - now the real one is too big and hurts my hands.  :( Why can't adult stuff be more fun? I want my hoover to be colorful and play music while I use it! And while I'm ranting, I had a kid I babysat tell me he got chocolate chip cookie dough flavored tooth cleaner at the dentist  :o buh-but why do the grown-ups have to just have mint? :'( Where's my banana flavor tooth polish?  >:( *grumble grumble darn lucky kids*

LOL! I know!  I don't mind vacuuming, prefer it to sweeping, even. 

My oldest, at that age, loved to sweep too, and I bought him a play cleaning set with a toy broom and mop.  My father once came by and saw Pirateboy1 playing with the broom and then gave me a look.  Mind you the toys were green. Not pink, not purple or some other "girl" color, but he says "Isn't that kind of girly?"  I rolled my eyes. 

That's another thing I'm trying to instill in my sons, that cleaning and cooking is not "women's work."

The other day my middle child came to me and said "Ya know how some people say men are stronger and braver than women? I think that's wrong.  Women are a lot braver than men." Atta boy! :D
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: magicdomino on March 19, 2013, 02:04:15 PM
A corn popper vacuum?  I want one!  Man, I loved my corn popper, although I'm not sure how my mother felt about it.   
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: Piratelvr1121 on March 19, 2013, 02:16:52 PM
Noisy toys don't bother me. I was telling someone about how someone gave my middle son a drum set for Christmas and they said "Oh I bet you loved that!" sarcastically and I'm not sure they believed me when I said "Oh I don't mind, I like drums!"
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: LadyClaire on March 19, 2013, 02:25:17 PM
My oldest, at that age, loved to sweep too, and I bought him a play cleaning set with a toy broom and mop. 

My sister, when she was a baby, apparently loved to sweep. There are pictures of her in her little walker with the broom.

She just discovered that her 9 month old son loves to chase the swiffer when she runs it across the floor. He'll go crawling after it as fast as he can as she cleans, trying his best to grab it. I told her he's obviously taking after her..he has an obsession with floor cleaning devices.

Being a mean aunt, I took the swiffer and pushed it around him in circles and then laughed hysterically as he crawled around and around and around trying to catch it.
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: TootsNYC on March 19, 2013, 02:33:02 PM
I tried to teach my oldest (6) to do the laundry, including things like putting it in and switching it to the dryer.  Unfortunately, the washer is just too deep for her to effectively reach the clothes.  I *could* have her put stuff in the washer and get stuff out of the dryer.  But it's also hard for her to carry a full load up the basement stairs.  So right now I just have her fold loads of kid stuff and carry it in a small, kid-sized laundry basket, up the stairs by person.  She still puts stuff in the wrong people's drawers *all* the time, though, drives me crazy.  But yeah, she's 6.  By the time she's 18, I would *hope* we'd have all these things ironed out.


She needs a long-hangled tongs!
And at 6, she really can be better at categorizing. Maybe some more coaching and a reward/penalty if she gets it right?

Maybe she can invent some system for helping her remember? (like, one stripe on the white socks for the oldest male; add a stripe for each person down the age spectrum; a white circle or dot for the oldest female?)

And maybe she doesn't put it in the drawer but on the bed?

Quote
It does seem like people want children to be less independent nowadays, though.  Our local children's agency recommends that children not be out of line of sight, including in their own backyard, until they're 8 years old.


Yeah, really! I once wrote a little blurb for a Q&A/parenting column about whether a 7yo can use a toaster. The agency we contacted said no. I'm thinking, "ye gods, it's not that difficult." I argued that if she said "no, not at all," we'd lose credibility and some parents would completely toss out the entire answer, and that we'd more like to influence them if we said, "Yes, with some surprisingly serious reservations" and coach parents through how to coach their KIDS (like, yes, but not if Mom isn't home; yes, if you use the bamboo tongs and not a fork; yes, if Mom is in the same room; yes, if you have the toaster plugged in somewhere easy to UNplug; yes, if you walk them through all the things that could go wrong and what their response should be--fires, sparks, stuck toast, too-dark toast smoking but not burning, etc.)
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: Piratelvr1121 on March 19, 2013, 02:38:56 PM
LOL!! Like a cat with a laser pointer!!! 

Piratebabe is hilarious with the real vacuum. He used to be terrified of it and would scream anytime it turned on. Now he's still unsure about it but will approach it when it's turned off like a knight in shining armor approaching a sleeping dragon.  When it turns on, he runs away but will sneak up behind it while I'm vacuuming but if it is turned towards him he turns tails and runs, but doesn't cry, just looks like he's plotting his next attack.   

He'll go up to it when it's turned off and unplugged and pull out the retractable cord and grin. Like "Ha! Got your tail, you vile beast!"
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: TootsNYC on March 19, 2013, 02:46:46 PM
Did you know? the personwho organized the most famous (and most successful) of the newsboys' strike in NYC was under 15? (If I remember right, they sometimes called him "the old man")

And his "union members" were 6 to 11, and they ran their own businesses, essentially.

http://ows.edb.utexas.edu/site/newsboys-strike-1899

Kids can do WAY more than we give them credit for nowadays.
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: siamesecat2965 on March 19, 2013, 02:47:55 PM
My mother used to refer to men who can't or won't do household chores as "chickens who'd starve beside a pile of corn."  This was not a complement.  All of us, boys and girls, learned some basic cooking, and we learned how to do laundry when we started dropping clothes on the floor instead of putting them away properly.   :)

Your mom was one smart lady!  I love this. My mom taught me from an early age how to do basic chores, although she was afraid i would "break" her washer so until I was in college, I wasn't allowed to do my own laundry. But I was expected to bring it down to the basement, bring it back up to my room, AND put it away.

I knew a girl in college who's mother sent their HOUSEKEEPER up to her room to clean it, and do her laundry for her. Amazing. she was doing her NO favors at all.
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: Virg on March 19, 2013, 03:45:29 PM
Softly Spoken wrote:

"And while I'm ranting, I had a kid I babysat tell me he got chocolate chip cookie dough flavored tooth cleaner at the dentist  :o buh-but why do the grown-ups have to just have mint? :'( Where's my banana flavor tooth polish?"

You know, if you ask the dentist he'll give you the kid stuff.  Most adults just prefer mint, but there's no law about it.

Virg
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: CakeBeret on March 19, 2013, 04:19:36 PM
My 3yo likes to "help" me cook. As PPs said it's far more hindrance than help ;) but he has fun and I'm sure he'll learn with time. I narrate what I do and why, and give him safe tasks that he can do himself.

I also have him help me with household chores, and he loves putting laundry into the dryer. I don't do it as much as I should, because I'm impatient and letting him do it takes about 5 times longer. But I do it as much as I can handle, lol.
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: Minmom3 on March 19, 2013, 08:27:37 PM
I tried to teach my oldest (6) to do the laundry, including things like putting it in and switching it to the dryer.  Unfortunately, the washer is just too deep for her to effectively reach the clothes.  I *could* have her put stuff in the washer and get stuff out of the dryer.  But it's also hard for her to carry a full load up the basement stairs.  So right now I just have her fold loads of kid stuff and carry it in a small, kid-sized laundry basket, up the stairs by person.  She still puts stuff in the wrong people's drawers *all* the time, though, drives me crazy.  But yeah, she's 6.  By the time she's 18, I would *hope* we'd have all these things ironed out.


She needs a long-hangled tongs!
And at 6, she really can be better at categorizing. Maybe some more coaching and a reward/penalty if she gets it right?

Maybe she can invent some system for helping her remember? (like, one stripe on the white socks for the oldest male; add a stripe for each person down the age spectrum; a white circle or dot for the oldest female?)

And maybe she doesn't put it in the drawer but on the bed?

Quote
It does seem like people want children to be less independent nowadays, though.  Our local children's agency recommends that children not be out of line of sight, including in their own backyard, until they're 8 years old.


Yeah, really! I once wrote a little blurb for a Q&A/parenting column about whether a 7yo can use a toaster. The agency we contacted said no. I'm thinking, "ye gods, it's not that difficult." I argued that if she said "no, not at all," we'd lose credibility and some parents would completely toss out the entire answer, and that we'd more like to influence them if we said, "Yes, with some surprisingly serious reservations" and coach parents through how to coach their KIDS (like, yes, but not if Mom isn't home; yes, if you use the bamboo tongs and not a fork; yes, if Mom is in the same room; yes, if you have the toaster plugged in somewhere easy to UNplug; yes, if you walk them through all the things that could go wrong and what their response should be--fires, sparks, stuck toast, too-dark toast smoking but not burning, etc.)

I have 3 daughters.  For a while, it was REALLY hard to tell who the white sport socks in the wash belonged to.  I got fabric paint and left mine blank, DD#1 got 1 dot under the toes, #2 got 2 dots, and #3 got 3 dots.  It worked well.  It DID cause a laugh one time when my nephew asked why our socks all had eyes on the bottoms!   ;D
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: Library Dragon on March 19, 2013, 09:53:59 PM
When DS1 was 8 we had back to school night.  In the hall were the essays about the students' families.  His said, "I don't like it when my parents slave me."  :o :-[

When we returned home I calmly asked what DS1 meant.  "You know, when you make me clean the dishes off the dinner table and make my bed." Amazingly he lived.  Fast forward to a few years ago when a roommate was "evicted" for not doing his (roommates) share of the chores.

When each DS hit teen years their laundry was their responsibility.  If something was in the laundry room and I needed to fill a load I would add it.  When DS1 was in an all male military college he spent a lot of time teaching friends how to do laundry.  His roommate was a prince from a small African nation.  He was used to having "people" do it for him.  DS1 explained he would teach him, but he was NOT going to do it for him. 
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: Winterlight on March 20, 2013, 08:01:46 AM
4-H was great for me and my brother- it's how he learned to cook.

I also started housesitting as an older teen- a couple days of independent living with my mom nearby was very useful.
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: Piratelvr1121 on March 20, 2013, 08:30:13 AM
My oldest, after being invited to a boy scout meeting by a friend at church, wants to join.  It's a commitment, but I'm thinking it might be good for him, as he said that the boy scouts, unlike the younger levels, are expected to do more things for themselves.

I didn't know 4-H taught cooking.  MIL has told us about a camp that DH went to as a boy, she said that while it wasn't easy sending him off for a week, it did him a lot of good.
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: kymom3 on March 20, 2013, 09:26:59 AM
Scouts are great for teaching independence.  Our boys do a little demonstration for new Scouts before their first campout--this is how to pack a backpack, what to take, etc.  They usually throw in some funny things-don't pack the huge iron skillet or the 5000 piece jigsaw puzzle.   ;D

Not sure if our 4-H office still does it, but they did a "Cooking Boot Camp for Boys" week long class a few years ago that DS3 took.  It was during spring break and the boys went every day.  They ended up with some nice kitchen utensils and each boy got a funny trophy at the end.  DS3's was written on a wooden spoon, he was the "best carrot peeler"  The last day they cooked a big dinner for their families.
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: Piratelvr1121 on March 20, 2013, 09:58:13 AM
How about teaching how to ask for help when needed? My oldest is a bright kid but does have some subjects he struggles with but will NOT ask the teacher or us for help. 

(Unfortunately in this he's a chip off the old block-I was like that too, in my case it was because I'd get distracted, miss things and then felt stupid for asking what the teacher probably covered when I saw something shiny.)
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: shadowfox79 on March 20, 2013, 10:20:53 AM
Scouts are great for teaching independence.  Our boys do a little demonstration for new Scouts before their first campout--this is how to pack a backpack, what to take, etc.  They usually throw in some funny things-don't pack the huge iron skillet or the 5000 piece jigsaw puzzle.   ;D

I wish I could have been a Scout. Sounds like it would have been much more fun than Brownies, at least in the camping aspect.

As a Brownie, every Pack Holiday was spent at the same old building in Yorkshire, and five hours of every day was spent cleaning it. In theory this was supposed to be a good thing, but in practice it was an excuse for the Owls to do their own thing while we scoured the floors and dusted under the beds. It was a great way to really put you off housekeeping.
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: ladyknight1 on March 20, 2013, 10:40:08 AM
Now the Boy Scouts are required to earn the cooking merit badge as part of the Eagle badge requirements.

Venturing Scouts is for both boys and girls of age 13 and having finished 8th grade. It is all high adventure activities, and the youth run their crew themselves with a little adult guidance.

Piratelvr1121, yes. My son is a Troop Guide, which means he works with the patrols (groups of boys) and makes sure they ask for help when needed.
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: Virg on March 20, 2013, 11:05:38 AM
kymom3 wrote:

"Scouts are great for teaching independence.  Our boys do a little demonstration for new Scouts before their first campout--this is how to pack a backpack, what to take, etc.  They usually throw in some funny things-don't pack the huge iron skillet or the 5000 piece jigsaw puzzle."

Yeah, they'll all laugh until they're stuck in the woods, lost and cold, and then they find out how easy it is to start a good fire with jigsaw puzzle pieces.  Then won't they be sorry?

Virg
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: jaxsue on March 20, 2013, 11:14:45 AM

But I never did learn how to cook BROWN rice. (I cannot get it to work worth a phooey.)

I grew up with a rice cooker, but only did white rice. I moved out and stopped eating rice for 20 years. Not kidding. Eating it more often, but not worth the $ for rice cooker. grr

What I love about my rice cooker is that it is programable.  I put the brown (or white, or wild, or steel-cut oatmeal) rice and water in when I think of it, set the timer for up to 12 hours ahead, and leave it.  No more forgetting the rice until dinner is almost done.

I love my rice cooker. It makes perfect brown rice, especially.
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: jaxsue on March 20, 2013, 11:18:02 AM
My 3yo likes to "help" me cook. As PPs said it's far more hindrance than help ;) but he has fun and I'm sure he'll learn with time. I narrate what I do and why, and give him safe tasks that he can do himself.


I know it can be a hassle at times, but what he's learning is very valuable. My younger DS, who's 22 now, "helped" me cook when he was as young as 2 y/o. In fact, he invented new food items. I, being a good mom, ate them and thanked him profusely.

Fast forward to now; he's a sous chef and an amazing cook!  :)
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: Piratelvr1121 on March 20, 2013, 11:21:05 AM
Wish I remembered how to build a fire.  I did girl scouts up to Juniors..maybe early seniors.  Our troop disbanded in early hs and I wanted to continue but was too shy to start over with a new troop.  DH is great with building fires but won't be going on our camping trip because he doesn't have vacation time.  So bff, who was also a GS, and I are going to have to remind ourselves of how to build a fire.   

This could be interesting.

My older 2 boys like to cook.  They don't make a whole lot at the moment but they can cook pasta, mac & cheese, scrambled eggs and omelettes.  My middle son especially will look over my shoulder and likes to help me plan meals. :)
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: jaxsue on March 20, 2013, 11:21:56 AM
Did you know? the personwho organized the most famous (and most successful) of the newsboys' strike in NYC was under 15? (If I remember right, they sometimes called him "the old man")

And his "union members" were 6 to 11, and they ran their own businesses, essentially.

http://ows.edb.utexas.edu/site/newsboys-strike-1899

Kids can do WAY more than we give them credit for nowadays.

ITA.

We bubble wrap kids nowadays, doing them no favors.

My dad was a newsboy in the late 20s. He remembers selling papers on busy city street corners "Black Tuesday" in 1929. When he was as young as 6 y/o, he took street cars to local grocers to buy a soup bone for a nickel (that's all they could afford).
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: TootsNYC on March 20, 2013, 11:25:56 AM
I have 3 daughters.  For a while, it was REALLY hard to tell who the white sport socks in the wash belonged to.  I got fabric paint and left mine blank, DD#1 got 1 dot under the toes, #2 got 2 dots, and #3 got 3 dots.  It worked well.  It DID cause a laugh one time when my nephew asked why our socks all had eyes on the bottoms!   ;D

The thing about the "add a stripe/dot as you go down in age" was that it was easy to simply add a stripe when the 14yo outgrew the underwear/socks and Mom wanted to have the younger one use them."


How about teaching how to ask for help when needed? My oldest is a bright kid but does have some subjects he struggles with but will NOT ask the teacher or us for help. 


This is why the poster upstream who pointed out the direction on the back of the bottle did that kid such a favor.

I think it's easy for people, kids especially, to forget that EVERYONE had to *learn* the stuff they know.
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: Piratelvr1121 on March 20, 2013, 11:28:32 AM
Very true.
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: LadyDyani on March 20, 2013, 11:50:26 AM
Wish I remembered how to build a fire. 

Smear vaseline on a couple paper towels, twist them into ropes, and put them in a baggie to take along.  Vaseline burns long and works great for starting a fire.  Make a kindling tent over the paper towel rope, and light the rope.  Once the kindling catches, you can add larger pieces of wood.

I always had one or two kids sitting on the kitchen counter when I cooked.  Yesterday my 12 year old son baked a loaf of bread and some breadsticks. He's invented a new chicken recipe using orange harvest tomato soup, and he's always asking if he can pick the herbs to be used when I'm cooking.  Sometimes it doesn't turn out very well, but he was spot on with the garlic, pepper and brown sugar broiled pork chops.  Those were delicious, and now it's one of my go-to recipes when I need to cook a meal in less than 20 minutes.

My daughter, on the other hand, doesn't even want to enter the kitchen while I'm cooking for fear that I may ask her if she wants to help.  She'd live on ramen if I let her.  Of course, loving ramen may come in useful when she's on her own in a few years.
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: MommyPenguin on March 20, 2013, 01:10:09 PM
I tried to teach my oldest (6) to do the laundry, including things like putting it in and switching it to the dryer.  Unfortunately, the washer is just too deep for her to effectively reach the clothes.  I *could* have her put stuff in the washer and get stuff out of the dryer.  But it's also hard for her to carry a full load up the basement stairs.  So right now I just have her fold loads of kid stuff and carry it in a small, kid-sized laundry basket, up the stairs by person.  She still puts stuff in the wrong people's drawers *all* the time, though, drives me crazy.  But yeah, she's 6.  By the time she's 18, I would *hope* we'd have all these things ironed out.


She needs a long-hangled tongs!
And at 6, she really can be better at categorizing. Maybe some more coaching and a reward/penalty if she gets it right?

Maybe she can invent some system for helping her remember? (like, one stripe on the white socks for the oldest male; add a stripe for each person down the age spectrum; a white circle or dot for the oldest female?)

And maybe she doesn't put it in the drawer but on the bed?

The clothes all have little label tags with their sizes.  Her 2-year-old sister wears 2T, her 4-year-old sister wears 4T, and she is 6 and wears size 6.  The problem is mostly that she's daydreaming while she does it, so she'll mix up which pile is which, or she'll put the piles too close to each other and the clothes will topple into each other.  I'd also rather not have her put the clothes on the beds, because then there's an extra step to put them away.  Plus, her clothes would then have to go on a top bunk and the 2-year-old's in a crib, which would be hard to do.  I don't really mean that all of clothes are wrong, just that almost every time she puts them away, she manages to put at least one wrong outfit in each person's drawers.  She also takes forever doing it, and you can't chat with her or keep her company or she'll get so distracted it'll take her an hour.  What I really need is, as you've mentioned, some sort of inducement for getting them all right (or penalty for getting them wrong).  But that would require me going through everything and checking it all, which cuts down on the benefit of having somebody else fold the clothes to begin with.  I'll have to see what I can come up with.

Speaking of vacuums that are fun, I have this Dyson vacuum that the base is sort of like a ball shape.  Instead of just going back and forth in a straight line, it can roll on the ball so that you can basically push it any which way easily.  I *love* this vacuum.  It's like a grown-up vacuum toy!  :)  Plus, it's a canister vacuum.  I've never had one before, but I love that I can just dump the canister and don't have to worry about emptying a bag and keeping new bags on hand.  It's also much easier to glance through the stuff in the canister before dumping it to make sure no LEGOs have been sucked up.
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: Virg on March 20, 2013, 03:43:47 PM
LadyDyani wrote:

"Smear vaseline on a couple paper towels, twist them into ropes, and put them in a baggie to take along.  Vaseline burns long and works great for starting a fire.  Make a kindling tent over the paper towel rope, and light the rope.  Once the kindling catches, you can add larger pieces of wood."

Tealight candles will do the same thing.  You just build your fire, pack it with kindling and put the candle at the bottom.  Once the fire gets going big it'll melt the candle pretty fast, but if it has trouble catching the candle will keep burning for a long time to help it start.  The advantage there is that you don't risk accidentally getting Vaseline on your hands and end up lighting your fingers on fire.

Virg
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: LadyDyani on March 20, 2013, 05:16:25 PM
The advantage there is that you don't risk accidentally getting Vaseline on your hands and end up lighting your fingers on fire.

Virg

I should have said to smear the vaseline in the middle, and then twist in to a rope, which is what I do.  The vaseline doesn't usually get on anything, and even a strong wind won't stop it from burning. 
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: afbluebelle on March 20, 2013, 07:22:16 PM
My childhood was not safe... we all learned the "gas, match, run" method of fire starting after mastering the much more mundane "kindling lean-to" method. I highly prefer the GMR >:D
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: LadyDyani on March 20, 2013, 07:24:49 PM
My childhood was not safe... we all learned the "gas, match, run" method of fire starting after mastering the much more mundane "kindling lean-to" method. I highly prefer the GMR >:D

That one is the more enjoyable method.  At least it's not boring.  :-)
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: Jules1980 on March 21, 2013, 02:05:38 AM
LOL!! Like a cat with a laser pointer!!! 

Piratebabe is hilarious with the real vacuum. He used to be terrified of it and would scream anytime it turned on. Now he's still unsure about it but will approach it when it's turned off like a knight in shining armor approaching a sleeping dragon.  When it turns on, he runs away but will sneak up behind it while I'm vacuuming but if it is turned towards him he turns tails and runs, but doesn't cry, just looks like he's plotting his next attack.   

He'll go up to it when it's turned off and unplugged and pull out the retractable cord and grin. Like "Ha! Got your tail, you vile beast!"

I love this story.
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: RebeccainGA on March 21, 2013, 08:21:07 AM
My childhood was not safe... we all learned the "gas, match, run" method of fire starting after mastering the much more mundane "kindling lean-to" method. I highly prefer the GMR >:D
I prefer the big bag of dryer lint method - although that's not nearly as fun as the dryer lint wrapped around Doritos method (which is scarily fast) or the steel wool and dryer lint combo, which has been known to light wet wood in a drizzle (when we went to camp, every single time, it rained. I think they timed it that way deliberately!).

I miss Girl Scouts!
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: Hillia on March 22, 2013, 10:50:37 AM
Not so much learning the hard way, but 'hey, my mom isn't a total moron'.

Last night DS (age 19) called to tell me that he had had the chance to have dinner with the CEO of an international corporation - this company makes a product used widely in his industry, and the company DS works for is the largest local customer of the product, so when he was in town for a conference he took the owners and managers out to dinner and DS was invited.  They went to a very fancy restaurant, and DS wanted to thank me for teaching him decent table manners and how to handle a formal dinner setting.
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: siamesecat2965 on March 22, 2013, 11:03:46 AM
Not so much learning the hard way, but 'hey, my mom isn't a total moron'.

Last night DS (age 19) called to tell me that he had had the chance to have dinner with the CEO of an international corporation - this company makes a product used widely in his industry, and the company DS works for is the largest local customer of the product, so when he was in town for a conference he took the owners and managers out to dinner and DS was invited.  They went to a very fancy restaurant, and DS wanted to thank me for teaching him decent table manners and how to handle a formal dinner setting.

Oh very nice! and kudos to your son for acknowledging that you taught him this!
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: jaxsue on March 22, 2013, 02:06:30 PM
Not so much learning the hard way, but 'hey, my mom isn't a total moron'.

Last night DS (age 19) called to tell me that he had had the chance to have dinner with the CEO of an international corporation - this company makes a product used widely in his industry, and the company DS works for is the largest local customer of the product, so when he was in town for a conference he took the owners and managers out to dinner and DS was invited.  They went to a very fancy restaurant, and DS wanted to thank me for teaching him decent table manners and how to handle a formal dinner setting.

Awesome!  :)
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: Katana_Geldar on March 25, 2013, 04:55:27 PM
Not so much learning the hard way, but 'hey, my mom isn't a total moron'.

Last night DS (age 19) called to tell me that he had had the chance to have dinner with the CEO of an international corporation - this company makes a product used widely in his industry, and the company DS works for is the largest local customer of the product, so when he was in town for a conference he took the owners and managers out to dinner and DS was invited.  They went to a very fancy restaurant, and DS wanted to thank me for teaching him decent table manners and how to handle a formal dinner setting.

That sort of thing even happens in fiction. The main character in The Name of the Wind is very grateful for his mother teaching him how to behave in polite company when he meets a pretty girl, despite being annoyed by it at the time. He realised that it gave you a script when you didn't know what to say.
Title: Re: young adults learning the hard way - update post #29
Post by: MrTango on March 26, 2013, 12:58:15 PM
kymom3 wrote:

"Scouts are great for teaching independence.  Our boys do a little demonstration for new Scouts before their first campout--this is how to pack a backpack, what to take, etc.  They usually throw in some funny things-don't pack the huge iron skillet or the 5000 piece jigsaw puzzle."

Yeah, they'll all laugh until they're stuck in the woods, lost and cold, and then they find out how easy it is to start a good fire with jigsaw puzzle pieces.  Then won't they be sorry?

Virg

When I was a boy scout, I saved up all the dryer lint from my house for about a month before our annual week-long trip.  I stuffed zip-lock sandwich bags with it and then compressed it under a stack of encyclopedias for a few hours before actually sealing the bags.

Eventually, I started buying cheap wax from a craft store and dipping the compressed bundles of lint in melted wax.  Not only did it make them waterproof, but they burned much longer.