Etiquette Hell

A Civil World. Off-topic discussions on a variety of topics. Guests, register for forum membership to see all the boards. => Time For a Coffee Break! => Topic started by: MommyPenguin on March 03, 2013, 09:39:02 PM

Title: Can you please explain to clueless me how a single sink works?
Post by: MommyPenguin on March 03, 2013, 09:39:02 PM
We've been looking at houses as we're moving soon, and a lot of the houses have a single sink.  Having grown up with a double sink, I just do not understand how it works to wash dishes in a single sink.  Can somebody explain the technique to me?

With a double sink, we fill one sink with hot water and soap and dishes, wash the dishes, put them in the other sink to rinse, and then move them to the drying rack.

When I've tried to use a double sink before, I've tried putting in less hot water and then just rinsing each dish as I wash it by holding it above the water... but then the rinsewater keeps making the water level rise and rise unless I drain some out frequently.  Or I've tried washing each dish by just rinsing it a bit, getting soap on the sponge, wiping down the dish, and then rinsing it.  Which works okay, but is annoying when you have a dish that would be so much easier to clean if it could soak a little.

Is one of these techniques what most people do, or is there another trick?  Assume that the sink is too small to put a separate tub within it, which I noticed my in-laws doing at one point.
Title: Re: Can you please explain to clueless me how a single sink works?
Post by: WillyNilly on March 03, 2013, 09:44:38 PM
I have never had a double sink or known anyone in real life with one. Nor have I ever known a non-professional sink to be filled with water to wash dishes.

To use a single sink, you just neatly stack the dishes in the sink, soap up sponge and run the water. You rinse, wipe/scrub the dish with the sponge, then rinse under running water, and put in dish rack, then move to the next dish and repeat.

ETA: for dishes that need soaking - you just leave those lined up under the running water and wash last.
Title: Re: Can you please explain to clueless me how a single sink works?
Post by: delabela on March 03, 2013, 09:48:09 PM
I've always just started with about an inch of soapy water started washing, letting the rinsing water run into the sink as I go, and turning the water off when I'm not actively rinsing something.
Title: Re: Can you please explain to clueless me how a single sink works?
Post by: Dazi on March 03, 2013, 09:49:05 PM
If you've never had a single basin sink, then it's not at all a stupid question.

You can either follow willynilly's suggestion or you can purchase a plastic sink tub to use as a portable basin. 
Title: Re: Can you please explain to clueless me how a single sink works?
Post by: WillyNilly on March 03, 2013, 09:53:32 PM
Of course the main thing is, get a dishwasher for the bulk of the dishes. Counter top versions are less the $200 including delivery and have no installation beyand plugging it in and attaching to the sink.
Title: Re: Can you please explain to clueless me how a single sink works?
Post by: Yvaine on March 03, 2013, 09:54:48 PM
I've always just started with about an inch of soapy water started washing, letting the rinsing water run into the sink as I go, and turning the water off when I'm not actively rinsing something.

This is what I did too when I had that type of sink.

ETA: Oh, and yes, it was not uncommon to have to drain water out in the middle of the process sometimes.
Title: Re: Can you please explain to clueless me how a single sink works?
Post by: Bijou on March 03, 2013, 10:00:26 PM
I love single sinks.  I have a square plastic dishpan that I put on one side filled with soapy water for washing and put the dishes in the other side and rinse them in running water.  I do them a few at a time, then rinse them in running water.  You don't have to run it hard, just enough to rinse them.  and turn off in between to not waste water.  You don't have to run it full, just enough to rinse them.  I would never rinse dishes in standing water.  It gets soap in it and, just seems kind of gross, to me. 
Title: Re: Can you please explain to clueless me how a single sink works?
Post by: MommyPenguin on March 03, 2013, 10:06:53 PM
Most of the houses do have a dishwasher, and we would get one of the house didn't have one, there are just a number of dishes that we can't put in the dishwasher.  Thanks for the ideas, they sound reasonable.  I hate washing dishes.  :)  A couple of houses that look really interesting have single sinks and couldn't be changed to doubles, so I may have to get used to the idea.
Title: Re: Can you please explain to clueless me how a single sink works?
Post by: Bluenomi on March 03, 2013, 10:24:22 PM
Don't rinse! I never bother (expect with wine glasses) and used my second sink for dishes that won't fit in the drainer.
Title: Re: Can you please explain to clueless me how a single sink works?
Post by: Delia DeLyons on March 03, 2013, 10:25:56 PM
I have a single sink and it is more frustrating than double in my experience.  However, I also have extremely limited (could even say non-exsistent) counter-space, so it's especially a pain for me.

Even with the extra deep, extra wide basin and sprayer (which is a big help for sure) it's still such  a pain in the rear for me, particularly if I've done a lot of cooking.  And I live on my own.

What I typically do to make it easiest on myself is make sure I've scraped the dishes very well into the trash/tupper ware for leftovers, whatever.  Then I rinse them with the sprayer to 'visibly clean'.

THEN I stop the drain and fill with enough hot soapy water to cover the dishes (or if cleaning a pot or large pan as well, I fill THAT with hot soapy water) and put all the dishes in.

At this point, I'll often leave them until I get home from work the next day, then I drain/dump the water, scrub em all down with a  sponge and use the sprayer to rinse them.

Hate doing dishes, so that colors my opinion and steers my method.

^^^ reading all that back, it doesn't sound nearly at all like the pain I've convinced myself it is, but then I have hated washing dishes since I was a kid (27 now).  Okaythankyou
Title: Re: Can you please explain to clueless me how a single sink works?
Post by: WillyNilly on March 03, 2013, 10:28:37 PM
Don't rinse! I never bother (expect with wine glasses) and used my second sink for dishes that won't fit in the drainer.

Wait what?  Please explain because as written that disgusting and unsanitary sounding!  How do you not rinse the soap and food particles off the dishes and consider them clean?
Title: Re: Can you please explain to clueless me how a single sink works?
Post by: hyzenthlay on March 03, 2013, 10:41:04 PM
I have a double sink, but I only ever use one to wash.  I usually scrub 5 or 6 dishes, then turn the water on to rinse them, wash another set, rinse etc.

I do have a dishwasher though, and I usually only hand wash pots and pans and the good knives.
Title: Re: Can you please explain to clueless me how a single sink works?
Post by: kareng57 on March 03, 2013, 10:42:18 PM
I've generally put the drying-rack into the second sink, and either spray-rinse everything in it, or briefly rinse stuff under the tap before putting it into the rack.  Of course, drying-racks used to always come with mats that would have a "lip" - meaning that you could put all the dishes onto the rack (on the counter) and use a spray to rinse them, and the rinse-water would drip back into the single sink.

However - my baby bathtub (25+ years ago) was a design that would fit over a double sink, and I found it to be very user-friendly.  Just a few days ago, I was watching an old TV show from the 1960s that had one of those "bathinettes" that had to be assembled, filled up and drained in a separate room (I vaguely remember my mother using one of these for my baby sister) and thought - what?  Much easier to let the baby remain dirty for a few more days.....
Title: Re: Can you please explain to clueless me how a single sink works?
Post by: Luci on March 03, 2013, 10:51:28 PM
Don't rinse! I never bother (expect with wine glasses) and used my second sink for dishes that won't fit in the drainer.

Wait what?  Please explain because as written that disgusting and unsanitary sounding!  How do you not rinse the soap and food particles off the dishes and consider them clean?

Agreed. I do know someone who was visiting a home where the dishes weren't rinsed and the kids had upset tummies the entire time, but were fine when they visited a different household in the same town. If the dishes are air dried, you end up with soap residue on them.
Title: Re: Can you please explain to clueless me how a single sink works?
Post by: mbbored on March 03, 2013, 11:01:12 PM
I usually fill my largest dirty pot with soapy water and set it to the side of the sink. Dirty dishes get stacked inside the sink and I wash them one by one with a rag dipped in the soapy water, then immediately rinse and put in a drying rack.
Title: Re: Can you please explain to clueless me how a single sink works?
Post by: katycoo on March 03, 2013, 11:02:01 PM
Don't rinse! I never bother (expect with wine glasses) and used my second sink for dishes that won't fit in the drainer.

Wait what?  Please explain because as written that disgusting and unsanitary sounding!  How do you not rinse the soap and food particles off the dishes and consider them clean?

You wash them, so the food particles are cleaned off, then you dry them.  If you don't overload with unnecessary amounts of liquid, there's not much in the way of suds to dry off.
Title: Re: Can you please explain to clueless me how a single sink works?
Post by: Ereine on March 03, 2013, 11:09:14 PM
Don't rinse! I never bother (expect with wine glasses) and used my second sink for dishes that won't fit in the drainer.

Wait what?  Please explain because as written that disgusting and unsanitary sounding!  How do you not rinse the soap and food particles off the dishes and consider them clean?

I was once on a discussion board where there was a huge war/debate about rinsing dishes and the conclusion was that in some countries it's customary not to rinse dishes but that they also have different dish soap and so it shouldn't be done elsewhere, or so they claimed.

I have a double sink but I haven't been able to find a plug that fits the other one so I only use one. I usually use a plastic tub for rinsing (I bought it when I had a single sink and no counter space, I put it on top of my stove when I was washing dishes) and sometimes when there's only a few dishes I'll do it the way delabela does it. I don't think that I could bring myself to rinse under running water, it seems so wasteful.
Title: Re: Can you please explain to clueless me how a single sink works?
Post by: Yvaine on March 03, 2013, 11:12:02 PM
I don't think that I could bring myself to rinse under running water, it seems so wasteful.

You only turn on the faucet in really short bursts--i.e. only when you have a dish to rinse--and I bet the amount of water used is lower than if you filled a sink of standing water. It doesn't just run the whole time.
Title: Re: Can you please explain to clueless me how a single sink works?
Post by: Bluenomi on March 03, 2013, 11:16:47 PM
Don't rinse! I never bother (expect with wine glasses) and used my second sink for dishes that won't fit in the drainer.

Wait what?  Please explain because as written that disgusting and unsanitary sounding!  How do you not rinse the soap and food particles off the dishes and consider them clean?

You wash them, so the food particles are cleaned off, then you dry them.  If you don't overload with unnecessary amounts of liquid, there's not much in the way of suds to dry off.

Exactly this. Plus I suspect our (as in Australian) washing liquid is different since you don't need to rinse bubbles off, they don't really stick. Plus rinsing wastes water which is a crime over here! The only people I know who rinse are British ex pats. My MIL rinses but doesn't bother filling her sink with water, just wipes things over with a skanky dishcloth and rinses. That seems so much worse than not rinsing!

Most stuff goes in the dishwasher, not many things get washed by hand.
Title: Re: Can you please explain to clueless me how a single sink works?
Post by: Ereine on March 03, 2013, 11:21:08 PM
I don't think that I could bring myself to rinse under running water, it seems so wasteful.

You only turn on the faucet in really short bursts--i.e. only when you have a dish to rinse--and I bet the amount of water used is lower than if you filled a sink of standing water. It doesn't just run the whole time.

That's why I said it seems wasteful, not that it necessarily is :) I think that we were taught at school that leaving water running is evil and obviously it applies to everything. I usually wash quite a lot of dishes at a time (because I hate doing them and am lazy) and I think that rinsing them would probably take as much water as my plastic tub and it seems easier to me.
Title: Re: Can you please explain to clueless me how a single sink works?
Post by: WillyNilly on March 03, 2013, 11:30:39 PM
I don't think that I could bring myself to rinse under running water, it seems so wasteful.

You only turn on the faucet in really short bursts--i.e. only when you have a dish to rinse--and I bet the amount of water used is lower than if you filled a sink of standing water. It doesn't just run the whole time.

That's why I said it seems wasteful, not that it necessarily is :) I think that we were taught at school that leaving water running is evil and obviously it applies to everything. I usually wash quite a lot of dishes at a time (because I hate doing them and am lazy) and I think that rinsing them would probably take as much water as my plastic tub and it seems easier to me.

How do you shower?  or flush a toilet?
I don't think anyone is advocating just leaving the water running randomly, but rather during active washing/rinsing time, no different then rinsing your hands, or your toothbrush or your hair.
Title: Re: Can you please explain to clueless me how a single sink works?
Post by: Yvaine on March 03, 2013, 11:31:52 PM
I don't think that I could bring myself to rinse under running water, it seems so wasteful.

You only turn on the faucet in really short bursts--i.e. only when you have a dish to rinse--and I bet the amount of water used is lower than if you filled a sink of standing water. It doesn't just run the whole time.

That's why I said it seems wasteful, not that it necessarily is :) I think that we were taught at school that leaving water running is evil and obviously it applies to everything. I usually wash quite a lot of dishes at a time (because I hate doing them and am lazy) and I think that rinsing them would probably take as much water as my plastic tub and it seems easier to me.

I don't think of it as "leaving" water running--I figure water needs to run for some things, and it's OK as long as it's not running while you're not using it. Like brushing your teeth--it's "leaving" the water running if it's just merrily running while you stand there and brush, but you genuinely need to run it at the very beginning and end of the process.
Title: Re: Can you please explain to clueless me how a single sink works?
Post by: bloo on March 03, 2013, 11:44:53 PM
I don't think that I could bring myself to rinse under running water, it seems so wasteful.

You only turn on the faucet in really short bursts--i.e. only when you have a dish to rinse--and I bet the amount of water used is lower than if you filled a sink of standing water. It doesn't just run the whole time.

That's why I said it seems wasteful, not that it necessarily is :) I think that we were taught at school that leaving water running is evil and obviously it applies to everything. I usually wash quite a lot of dishes at a time (because I hate doing them and am lazy) and I think that rinsing them would probably take as much water as my plastic tub and it seems easier to me.

How do you shower?  or flush a toilet?
I don't think anyone is advocating just leaving the water running randomly, but rather during active washing/rinsing time, no different then rinsing your hands, or your toothbrush or your hair.

I'm with you WillyNilly. When I was growing up in South Florida, we had water restrictions so my dad sat us down and explained that we could only let the shower run to get wet and to rinse off. And he started giving us time limits on showers. It's a habit I've continued but my kids and I do it out of necessity because the house we live in now has enough hot water for maybe a 10 minute shower if you were to run the water continuously. Consequently I don't run out of hot water but my DH is, IMO, pretty wasteful because he enjoys hot water blasting him the entire time. All part of the 'experience' for him I guess.

I really prefer a double basin sink. The house I'm living in has a single and while I do appreciate it when I'm washing my roasting pan or as today when I had to soak and wash six 11" x "18" jelly roll pans, I like a double basin for the day-to-day stuff. I run my dishwasher everyday, but I can't put my pots-n-pans, knives, coffeemaker, stickblender, extra large mixing bowls, wooden cooking utensils into it. I do a lot of cooking everyday.
Title: Re: Can you please explain to clueless me how a single sink works?
Post by: Slartibartfast on March 03, 2013, 11:54:52 PM
I never understood the whole "conserve water" effort because I grew up five minutes from Lake Michigan and the water was plentiful and cheap there.  It also ran less than a mile from the lake to our house, so tap water there tastes awesome!  Then I lived/visited other places and was astounded at how nasty (and how variable) the taste from local water sources can be.  Where I live now, we have very hard water - it tastes odd, makes cleaning the shower a pain, and it makes toothpaste and dish soap foam differently.  It's still cheap here, though - conserving water might save us a nickel a month.

I think I would have a very hard time getting used to living somewhere where it truly was necessary to conserve water as a normal day-to-day thing (not just during a drought).  And I've never lived somewhere without a double sink  :P
Title: Re: Can you please explain to clueless me how a single sink works?
Post by: pharmagal on March 04, 2013, 12:00:12 AM
Don't rinse! I never bother (expect with wine glasses) and used my second sink for dishes that won't fit in the drainer.

Wait what?  Please explain because as written that disgusting and unsanitary sounding!  How do you not rinse the soap and food particles off the dishes and consider them clean?

You wash them, so the food particles are cleaned off, then you dry them.  If you don't overload with unnecessary amounts of liquid, there's not much in the way of suds to dry off.

Exactly this. Plus I suspect our (as in Australian) washing liquid is different since you don't need to rinse bubbles off, they don't really stick. Plus rinsing wastes water which is a crime over here! The only people I know who rinse are British ex pats. My MIL rinses but doesn't bother filling her sink with water, just wipes things over with a skanky dishcloth and rinses. That seems so much worse than not rinsing!

Most stuff goes in the dishwasher, not many things get washed by hand.

I grew up in NZ - I don't know if it's regional or not, but most homes when I grew up had a single sink.  And you washed the dishes by washing the crockery and cutlery first, then the glasses (which my mum always filled with hot water before we dried them so they wouldn't streak).  then you washed the more heavily dirty items.  If you needed to, you refilled the sink, but we never rinsed the dishes at all. 

And none of us got sick from it. 

Willy Nilly, I found your post quite offensive.  Just because it's not something you do or don't do, doesn't mean it's disgusting or unsanitary.  Rinsing off shower gel or soap is what you do since you're standing under running water.  I know a lot of people who simply have sponge baths because they barely have any water left and it costs $$$ to get more.
Title: Re: Can you please explain to clueless me how a single sink works?
Post by: MariaE on March 04, 2013, 12:02:56 AM
I don't think that I could bring myself to rinse under running water, it seems so wasteful.

You only turn on the faucet in really short bursts--i.e. only when you have a dish to rinse--and I bet the amount of water used is lower than if you filled a sink of standing water. It doesn't just run the whole time.

That's why I said it seems wasteful, not that it necessarily is :) I think that we were taught at school that leaving water running is evil and obviously it applies to everything. I usually wash quite a lot of dishes at a time (because I hate doing them and am lazy) and I think that rinsing them would probably take as much water as my plastic tub and it seems easier to me.

How do you shower?  or flush a toilet?
I don't think anyone is advocating just leaving the water running randomly, but rather during active washing/rinsing time, no different then rinsing your hands, or your toothbrush or your hair.

I read your reply#1 as washing under running water as well, and thought it really wasteful. Knowing that you only turn it on when needed makes more sense :)

To answer your questions - I shower rather than run a bath, to preserve water. I flush the toilet using the small flush rather than the big flush whenever I can, in order to preserve water. In Denmark the same water is used for everything, which means we pretty much flush our loos using drinking water which just seems ridiculously wasteful to me  :-[  :-\ I wish I lived somewhere that used rain water for non-tap water.

OP, I very, very, very seldom rinse off the dishes afterwards. Danish dish soap is apparently very much like the Australian one :) On the rare occasions that I do, I put everything on the drying rack, boil a kettle of water and pour it over. Rinsed dishes that dry even faster :D
Title: Re: Can you please explain to clueless me how a single sink works?
Post by: Yvaine on March 04, 2013, 12:06:51 AM
Ah, I see. The post I initially agreed with talked about "turning the water off when you're not actively rinsing something," so I thought it was implied.
Title: Re: Can you please explain to clueless me how a single sink works?
Post by: Dindrane on March 04, 2013, 12:41:44 AM
I personally cannot stand the thought of filling up half of a double sink with soapy water to wash dishes. I never washed dishes that way growing up, and something about it just totally skeeves me out.

On the other hand, I do intellectually know the benefits of that particular method, so DH and I acquired a $5 plastic dish tub that fits in one half of our sink. I fill it with hot soapy water and toss dishes in as I'm cooking so that nothing gets all caked on before I get around to washing.

We did have to have a bit of a come-to-deity discussion recently about rinsing things off before putting them in the tub, and not leaving things in there for upwards of 24 hours. There is nothing that grosses me out more than tepid water filled with soap scum and food particles that I have to stick my hands into because there are utensils at the bottom.

I ultimately much prefer a single basin sink, because I mostly find that the divider in a double basin gets in my way and makes pots harder to wash. But I do like using the plastic tub to soak dishes. It does make them easier to wash, and keeps them all contained and out of the way. It's also nice that it's separate from the sink, because I can carefully tip water out to avoid sticking my hands in more icky food-laden water than I have to to get those last few forks. :)
Title: Re: Can you please explain to clueless me how a single sink works?
Post by: MariaE on March 04, 2013, 12:54:32 AM
Ah, I see. The post I initially agreed with talked about "turning the water off when you're not actively rinsing something," so I thought it was implied.

It was in yours, but not in WillyNilly's:

Quote
I have never had a double sink or known anyone in real life with one. Nor have I ever known a non-professional sink to be filled with water to wash dishes.

To use a single sink, you just neatly stack the dishes in the sink, soap up sponge and run the water. You rinse, wipe/scrub the dish with the sponge, then rinse under running water, and put in dish rack, then move to the next dish and repeat.

ETA: for dishes that need soaking - you just leave those lined up under the running water and wash last.

The bolded especially made me think she washed the dishes under running water rather than turning the water on and off, so I appreciated her explanation that that wasn't the case.
Title: Re: Can you please explain to clueless me how a single sink works?
Post by: StarFaerie on March 04, 2013, 01:02:42 AM
Don't rinse! I never bother (expect with wine glasses) and used my second sink for dishes that won't fit in the drainer.

Wait what?  Please explain because as written that disgusting and unsanitary sounding!  How do you not rinse the soap and food particles off the dishes and consider them clean?

You wash them, so the food particles are cleaned off, then you dry them.  If you don't overload with unnecessary amounts of liquid, there's not much in the way of suds to dry off.

Exactly this. Plus I suspect our (as in Australian) washing liquid is different since you don't need to rinse bubbles off, they don't really stick. Plus rinsing wastes water which is a crime over here! The only people I know who rinse are British ex pats. My MIL rinses but doesn't bother filling her sink with water, just wipes things over with a skanky dishcloth and rinses. That seems so much worse than not rinsing!

Most stuff goes in the dishwasher, not many things get washed by hand.

I think you're in my town Bluenomi, so we also have very soft water. You don't need much detergent at all and certainly there is no need to rinse unless you have gone overboard with the detergent accidentally. I don't think I know anyone who rinses, except my stepmother who just pours boiling water over the dishes in the drainer so that they air dry quickly.
Title: Re: Can you please explain to clueless me how a single sink works?
Post by: jedikaiti on March 04, 2013, 01:07:36 AM
I don't think that I could bring myself to rinse under running water, it seems so wasteful.

You only turn on the faucet in really short bursts--i.e. only when you have a dish to rinse--and I bet the amount of water used is lower than if you filled a sink of standing water. It doesn't just run the whole time.

I don't remember ever washing dishes in a single sink, and that was how I always rinsed - sometimes I'd stack a bunch of dishes in the 2nd sink and rinse them all at once, but I never EVER used a sink of standing water to rinse. It just seemed counterproductive to me.

Of course I rarely have that many dishes to wash - unless it's a major holiday dinner at my parent's house, all the dishes can usually go in the dishwasher. :-)
Title: Re: Can you please explain to clueless me how a single sink works?
Post by: Ereine on March 04, 2013, 02:19:17 AM
I don't think that I could bring myself to rinse under running water, it seems so wasteful.

You only turn on the faucet in really short bursts--i.e. only when you have a dish to rinse--and I bet the amount of water used is lower than if you filled a sink of standing water. It doesn't just run the whole time.

That's why I said it seems wasteful, not that it necessarily is :) I think that we were taught at school that leaving water running is evil and obviously it applies to everything. I usually wash quite a lot of dishes at a time (because I hate doing them and am lazy) and I think that rinsing them would probably take as much water as my plastic tub and it seems easier to me.

How do you shower?  or flush a toilet?
I don't think anyone is advocating just leaving the water running randomly, but rather during active washing/rinsing time, no different then rinsing your hands, or your toothbrush or your hair.

I guess I wasn't clear enough that it's just the perception of it, kind of like to some people not rinsing dishes seems really odd (it seems to me too, all our general dish washing soaps have warning labels and though it probably applies more to it undiluted, I still don't want digest it).
Title: Re: Can you please explain to clueless me how a single sink works?
Post by: StarFaerie on March 04, 2013, 02:47:40 AM
I don't think that I could bring myself to rinse under running water, it seems so wasteful.

You only turn on the faucet in really short bursts--i.e. only when you have a dish to rinse--and I bet the amount of water used is lower than if you filled a sink of standing water. It doesn't just run the whole time.

That's why I said it seems wasteful, not that it necessarily is :) I think that we were taught at school that leaving water running is evil and obviously it applies to everything. I usually wash quite a lot of dishes at a time (because I hate doing them and am lazy) and I think that rinsing them would probably take as much water as my plastic tub and it seems easier to me.

How do you shower?  or flush a toilet?
I don't think anyone is advocating just leaving the water running randomly, but rather during active washing/rinsing time, no different then rinsing your hands, or your toothbrush or your hair.

I guess I wasn't clear enough that it's just the perception of it, kind of like to some people not rinsing dishes seems really odd (it seems to me too, all our general dish washing soaps have warning labels and though it probably applies more to it undiluted, I still don't want digest it).

Interesting. I just checked my dishwashing liquid (Australian) and there is no warning on it about rinsing, just an instruction that a small squirt is enough.
Title: Re: Can you please explain to clueless me how a single sink works?
Post by: MariaE on March 04, 2013, 03:57:11 AM
I don't think that I could bring myself to rinse under running water, it seems so wasteful.

You only turn on the faucet in really short bursts--i.e. only when you have a dish to rinse--and I bet the amount of water used is lower than if you filled a sink of standing water. It doesn't just run the whole time.

That's why I said it seems wasteful, not that it necessarily is :) I think that we were taught at school that leaving water running is evil and obviously it applies to everything. I usually wash quite a lot of dishes at a time (because I hate doing them and am lazy) and I think that rinsing them would probably take as much water as my plastic tub and it seems easier to me.

How do you shower?  or flush a toilet?
I don't think anyone is advocating just leaving the water running randomly, but rather during active washing/rinsing time, no different then rinsing your hands, or your toothbrush or your hair.

I guess I wasn't clear enough that it's just the perception of it, kind of like to some people not rinsing dishes seems really odd (it seems to me too, all our general dish washing soaps have warning labels and though it probably applies more to it undiluted, I still don't want digest it).

Interesting. I just checked my dishwashing liquid (Australian) and there is no warning on it about rinsing, just an instruction that a small squirt is enough.

Same with the one I'm using (Denmark). In fact, it is advertised as being gentle enough to use for washing hands as well.
Title: Re: Can you please explain to clueless me how a single sink works?
Post by: Redsoil on March 04, 2013, 05:37:34 AM
It's quite interesting to me that so many people think  that washing dishes in a single sink and not rinsing is unusual!  (And to be honest, the "disgusting" comment got to me too.) 

Single sink here (not one house I've lived in had a double).  Fill with about three inches of hot water only (after scraping the dishes and rinsing a bit in hot water firstto get the worst stuff off - either running or from the kettle).  Small squirt of soap, then start with the lightly soiled items first and work up to the heavier/dirtier items.  If the water starts to get a bit mucky, drain it out and re-fill, add soap and go again.Wipe with a cotton tea-towel and put away. 

I found it interesting that people wash dishes quite differently to this in other parts of the world.
Title: Re: Can you please explain to clueless me how a single sink works?
Post by: MariaE on March 04, 2013, 06:16:06 AM
It's quite interesting to me that so many people think  that washing dishes in a single sink and not rinsing is unusual!  (And to be honest, the "disgusting" comment got to me too.) 

Single sink here (not one house I've lived in had a double).  Fill with about three inches of hot water only (after scraping the dishes and rinsing a bit in hot water firstto get the worst stuff off - either running or from the kettle).  Small squirt of soap, then start with the lightly soiled items first and work up to the heavier/dirtier items.  If the water starts to get a bit mucky, drain it out and re-fill, add soap and go again.Wipe with a cotton tea-towel and put away. 

I found it interesting that people wash dishes quite differently to this in other parts of the world.

This is actually how we were taught to wash dishes in home ec back in the early 90s :)
Title: Re: Can you please explain to clueless me how a single sink works?
Post by: camlan on March 04, 2013, 06:32:38 AM
I'm the exactly opposite of the OP. Currently, I'm dealing with the first double sink I've ever had, and I don't like it. Difficult to wash cookie sheets and the big Dutch oven. And two drains to have to keep clear, instead of one.

Mostly, in a single sink, I've used a dish pan to hold the hot, soapy water. I wash a few dishes and put them in the empty part of the sink, and rinse them when there's a small stack. Then repeat until they are all done.

Some people leave the water running and rinse each dish/cup/fork as it is washed. Some people put everything in the drying rack and pour or spray water over them when everything is washed.

Some people just plop the dirty dishes in the sink, put the soap on the dish cloth, run the water and wash and rinse each piece.

I've only once seen a single sink that couldn't hold a dish pan. That's in my brother's house, which has a very badly remodeled kitchen. He has a small, but very deep single sink--it's about the size of one side of a double sink. He puts everything possible into the dishwasher, and washes everything else by running hot water and washing and rinsing each item in a single step.
Title: Re: Can you please explain to clueless me how a single sink works?
Post by: Curly Wurly Doggie Breath on March 04, 2013, 06:45:56 AM
Don't rinse! I never bother (expect with wine glasses) and used my second sink for dishes that won't fit in the drainer.

This, Single sink, No dishwasher (bar me ). I use really stinking hot water( my hands are used to it) and only a little detergent. I dont rinse.
Title: Re: Can you please explain to clueless me how a single sink works?
Post by: Curly Wurly Doggie Breath on March 04, 2013, 06:47:20 AM
It's quite interesting to me that so many people think  that washing dishes in a single sink and not rinsing is unusual!  (And to be honest, the "disgusting" comment got to me too.) 

Single sink here (not one house I've lived in had a double).  Fill with about three inches of hot water only (after scraping the dishes and rinsing a bit in hot water firstto get the worst stuff off - either running or from the kettle).  Small squirt of soap, then start with the lightly soiled items first and work up to the heavier/dirtier items.  If the water starts to get a bit mucky, drain it out and re-fill, add soap and go again.Wipe with a cotton tea-towel and put away. 

I found it interesting that people wash dishes quite differently to this in other parts of the world.

I guess I should read the whole thread huh
Title: Re: Can you please explain to clueless me how a single sink works?
Post by: Curly Wurly Doggie Breath on March 04, 2013, 06:52:18 AM
I don't think that I could bring myself to rinse under running water, it seems so wasteful.

You only turn on the faucet in really short bursts--i.e. only when you have a dish to rinse--and I bet the amount of water used is lower than if you filled a sink of standing water. It doesn't just run the whole time.

That's why I said it seems wasteful, not that it necessarily is :) I think that we were taught at school that leaving water running is evil and obviously it applies to everything. I usually wash quite a lot of dishes at a time (because I hate doing them and am lazy) and I think that rinsing them would probably take as much water as my plastic tub and it seems easier to me.

How do you shower?  or flush a toilet?
I don't think anyone is advocating just leaving the water running randomly, but rather during active washing/rinsing time, no different then rinsing your hands, or your toothbrush or your hair.

Really sweetheart, They do clean just fine. CSIRO do germ tests. Hand washing this way is just as clean as a dishwasher.
 Our washing up standards work.
Title: Re: Can you please explain to clueless me how a single sink works?
Post by: Curly Wurly Doggie Breath on March 04, 2013, 06:54:40 AM
Don't rinse! I never bother (expect with wine glasses) and used my second sink for dishes that won't fit in the drainer.

Wait what?  Please explain because as written that disgusting and unsanitary sounding!  How do you not rinse the soap and food particles off the dishes and consider them clean?

You wash them, so the food particles are cleaned off, then you dry them.  If you don't overload with unnecessary amounts of liquid, there's not much in the way of suds to dry off.

Exactly this. Plus I suspect our (as in Australian) washing liquid is different since you don't need to rinse bubbles off, they don't really stick. Plus rinsing wastes water which is a crime over here! The only people I know who rinse are British ex pats. My MIL rinses but doesn't bother filling her sink with water, just wipes things over with a skanky dishcloth and rinses. That seems so much worse than not rinsing!

Most stuff goes in the dishwasher, not many things get washed by hand.

I grew up in NZ - I don't know if it's regional or not, but most homes when I grew up had a single sink.  And you washed the dishes by washing the crockery and cutlery first, then the glasses (which my mum always filled with hot water before we dried them so they wouldn't streak).  then you washed the more heavily dirty items.  If you needed to, you refilled the sink, but we never rinsed the dishes at all. 

And none of us got sick from it. 

Willy Nilly, I found your post quite offensive.  Just because it's not something you do or don't do, doesn't mean it's disgusting or unsanitary.  Rinsing off shower gel or soap is what you do since you're standing under running water.  I know a lot of people who simply have sponge baths because they barely have any water left and it costs $$$ to get more.

I feel the same way
Title: Re: Can you please explain to clueless me how a single sink works?
Post by: Curly Wurly Doggie Breath on March 04, 2013, 06:57:05 AM
Don't rinse! I never bother (expect with wine glasses) and used my second sink for dishes that won't fit in the drainer.

Wait what?  Please explain because as written that disgusting and unsanitary sounding!  How do you not rinse the soap and food particles off the dishes and consider them clean?

You wash them, so the food particles are cleaned off, then you dry them.  If you don't overload with unnecessary amounts of liquid, there's not much in the way of suds to dry off.

Exactly this. Plus I suspect our (as in Australian) washing liquid is different since you don't need to rinse bubbles off, they don't really stick. Plus rinsing wastes water which is a crime over here! The only people I know who rinse are British ex pats. My MIL rinses but doesn't bother filling her sink with water, just wipes things over with a skanky dishcloth and rinses. That seems so much worse than not rinsing!

Most stuff goes in the dishwasher, not many things get washed by hand.

I think you're in my town Bluenomi, so we also have very soft water. You don't need much detergent at all and certainly there is no need to rinse unless you have gone overboard with the detergent accidentally. I don't think I know anyone who rinses, except my stepmother who just pours boiling water over the dishes in the drainer so that they air dry quickly.

Using rainwater here. Water restrictions are hell.
Title: Re: Can you please explain to clueless me how a single sink works?
Post by: Margo on March 04, 2013, 07:04:11 AM
for me, it depends how much washing up there is. For smaller quantities, I will wash, put the dishes in the dish drainer (which sits on the draining board) and then use a mug or glass to pour water over them to rinse, as this uses less water than simply running a tap.  I do this as I go along so that everything gets rinsed.

For things such as glasses where this isn't practical (because you can only rinse the outside using this method)  I would usually rinse the glass under the tap, and then use that water to pour over the outside of the next glass, and so on.

If I have someone who is doing the drying up for me as I go along then I will either fill a large basin with clean, hot water and use that to rinse before putting things onto the drainer (and when it starts to get soapy, pour away the washing water, use the rinsing water to wash the next tranche of stuff, and re-fill the rinsing bowl.

Title: Re: Can you please explain to clueless me how a single sink works?
Post by: MommyPenguin on March 04, 2013, 07:14:21 AM
I thought that the way soap works was that it tends to cling to the particles of food and stuff, so you need the rinsing away action in order to actually get the item clean.  Or does towel-drying complete that part of the process?  Personally, I am *not* a person who dries dishes... I don't see the point, since they'll dry on the drying rack, and I read recently somewhere that they tend to be cleaner if air-dried, anyway.  But if you did need to towel-dry them because of space, then maybe that's how it works to not rinse them?  Or does the soap just work that very differently?

If we get a house that needs the countertop replaced anyway (some of them have laminate, and my husband can pour a replacement concrete countertop, which would also look nicer when we go to resell/rent the place out), it might be possible to change out the sink.  *If* there's room for a double sink.  But if the countertops are already granite/concrete/something good, or if there isn't space, I'll be stuck!  I guess I don't feel so bad about the idea, though, now that I have an idea of how it all works.  I would like lots of countertop and cabinet space, so maybe I could put up with the single sink that I'm not used to, if the kitchen is good in other ways.  :)
Title: Re: Can you please explain to clueless me how a single sink works?
Post by: Curly Wurly Doggie Breath on March 04, 2013, 07:24:30 AM
The detergent here is quite mild. It lifts the grot and food and suspends it in the water.

If wanted, one Can rinse. I do so for the glasses.

But in incredibly hot water, it doesn't seem needed.

We also towel dry, but, In hot enough water, the dishes practically dry themselves.
Title: Re: Can you please explain to clueless me how a single sink works?
Post by: Curly Wurly Doggie Breath on March 04, 2013, 07:25:46 AM
I'm starting to think we actually have *very* different dish detergents here
Title: Re: Can you please explain to clueless me how a single sink works?
Post by: lady_disdain on March 04, 2013, 07:53:35 AM
Interesting discussion! I had no idea washing up methods varied so much.

Here, single sinks are the norm and having a hot water tap in the kitchen is a big luxury, as few houses have a water heater (electric showers in the bathroom are the norm). Dishes are carefully scraped first, to remove all the bits of food. Dishes are stacked in the sink and a glass with soapy water is used for particularly dirty cutlery. The glasses are placed on the small ledge behind the sink. Run a little water after the dishes are placed, so they aren't dry. Moisten the sponge, add detergent and start: pick up a dish, angle it so excess water runs out (and onto the next dish), scrub, place on counter besides the sink. Repeat ad nausea. Once all the dishes have been scrubbed, open the tap (not a lot, so it won't slash) and rinse the dishes, placing them on the drainer on the other side of the sink. Repeat for cutlery and glasses.
Title: Re: Can you please explain to clueless me how a single sink works?
Post by: dietcokeofevil on March 04, 2013, 07:57:38 AM
I would have trouble with the single sink, because of the garbage disposal.  Even if I scrape all my dishes beforehand and run the disposal, I always seem to find something that I missed and need to clean out before I can wash it.
Title: Re: Can you please explain to clueless me how a single sink works?
Post by: Curly Wurly Doggie Breath on March 04, 2013, 07:59:04 AM
Ohh, Our garbage disposal is the Chicken yard.  8)
Title: Re: Can you please explain to clueless me how a single sink works?
Post by: MariaE on March 04, 2013, 08:11:30 AM
I'd never even heard of garbage disposals until I lived in New Zealand. They definitely aren't the norm in Denmark :) I don't think I've seen a single kitchen that had one here.

Which is a shame - I'd like one :)
Title: Re: Can you please explain to clueless me how a single sink works?
Post by: Zilla on March 04, 2013, 08:18:09 AM
I have had both double and single sinks.  I prefer a large wide single sink as it's so much easier to wash pans in without hitting the double sink wall.  As for no rinsing, I want that soap!  We don't have a dishwasher now and it's a pain to soap up and rinse every single dish. 
Title: Re: Can you please explain to clueless me how a single sink works?
Post by: bloo on March 04, 2013, 08:22:08 AM
I would have trouble with the single sink, because of the garbage disposal.  Even if I scrape all my dishes beforehand and run the disposal, I always seem to find something that I missed and need to clean out before I can wash it.

This is one of the banes of my single basin! I find myself emptying something outside or in the bathroom sink if I missed a glass or bowl with food or liquid.

I thought that the way soap works was that it tends to cling to the particles of food and stuff, so you need the rinsing away action in order to actually get the item clean.  Or does towel-drying complete that part of the process?  Personally, I am *not* a person who dries dishes... I don't see the point, since they'll dry on the drying rack, and I read recently somewhere that they tend to be cleaner if air-dried, anyway.  But if you did need to towel-dry them because of space, then maybe that's how it works to not rinse them?  Or does the soap just work that very differently?


This is my understanding of how soap works. I never filled my second basin with rinse water. I just would wash the dishes in soapy water, place them in the second basin and when that got kind of full would then start rinsing and stacking in a drain rack.

When I worked at Domino's Pizza 25+ years ago, they had a 3-sink system. Three very large, stainless-steel basins. One was for hot soapy water, the second for filling with rinse water and the third was sanitizer (hot water with a capful of bleach).

Now I volunteer with construction projects having to do with my religion and I work specifically in food service and everything has to be done just like in a commercial kitchen. Three deep sinks, wash - rinse - sanitize. Oh my aching back...they are deep sinks!

I'd never even heard of garbage disposals until I lived in New Zealand. They definitely aren't the norm in Denmark :) I don't think I've seen a single kitchen that had one here.

Which is a shame - I'd like one :)

I really like having one for certain kitchen jobs like when I'm peeling carrots, potatoes or hard-boiled eggs. I always scrape the bulk of stuff into the garbage, but it's nice be able to rinse away and dispose the little bit of peelings and shells that I missed.
Title: Re: Can you please explain to clueless me how a single sink works?
Post by: Ereine on March 04, 2013, 08:42:04 AM
I don't think that I could bring myself to rinse under running water, it seems so wasteful.

You only turn on the faucet in really short bursts--i.e. only when you have a dish to rinse--and I bet the amount of water used is lower than if you filled a sink of standing water. It doesn't just run the whole time.

That's why I said it seems wasteful, not that it necessarily is :) I think that we were taught at school that leaving water running is evil and obviously it applies to everything. I usually wash quite a lot of dishes at a time (because I hate doing them and am lazy) and I think that rinsing them would probably take as much water as my plastic tub and it seems easier to me.

How do you shower?  or flush a toilet?
I don't think anyone is advocating just leaving the water running randomly, but rather during active washing/rinsing time, no different then rinsing your hands, or your toothbrush or your hair.

I guess I wasn't clear enough that it's just the perception of it, kind of like to some people not rinsing dishes seems really odd (it seems to me too, all our general dish washing soaps have warning labels and though it probably applies more to it undiluted, I still don't want digest it).

Interesting. I just checked my dishwashing liquid (Australian) and there is no warning on it about rinsing, just an instruction that a small squirt is enough.

Well the warning is for severe eye damage, so it doesn't mention rinsing but I'm paranoid :) That is dish soap marketed as gentle and approved by an allergy organization.
Title: Re: Can you please explain to clueless me how a single sink works?
Post by: Tilt Fairy on March 04, 2013, 08:51:40 AM
This was an interesting read. From reading all the above, seems to me that there appear to be three common ways to wash dishes (or a variation of):

1) Filling up the sink or a bowl with soapy water and washing them all in the standing pool of water and then putting them straight onto the drying rack. Sort of like when you have a bath!
2) Doing the same as no. 1 but then putting them all into the second sink to submerge in another pool of water to rinse them and then put them on the drying rack (what OP does) Like having a bath but then getting into a new bath of clean water to rinse off! (or maybe some even rinse each item individually under the tap in the second sink instead of submerge).
3) Washing and rinsing each item individually under hot running water under it's own individual stream from the tap. Nothing is submerged in standing water and the sink does not need to be filled for this method. Just a tap with running water is used. Some people leave the tap running and have it continuously under the stream whilst others may turn it off between scrubs or rinses. Like having a shower.

I've seen people use all of the above methods. I always do no.3 and that's what my parents always did so that's how I learned to do it. I always towel dry everything afterwards as well but that's more because we don't have much space to let things dry naturally.
Title: Re: Can you please explain to clueless me how a single sink works?
Post by: Curly Wurly Doggie Breath on March 04, 2013, 09:02:20 AM
Tilt Fairy. option 4. get some other blighter to wash up lol ;)
Title: Re: Can you please explain to clueless me how a single sink works?
Post by: Tilt Fairy on March 04, 2013, 09:03:55 AM
Tilt Fairy. option 4. get some other blighter to wash up lol ;)

Yep. I actually prefer this option! Mine comes in the form of my reluctant boyfriend.
Title: Re: Can you please explain to clueless me how a single sink works?
Post by: WillyNilly on March 04, 2013, 09:48:08 AM
Ah, I see. The post I initially agreed with talked about "turning the water off when you're not actively rinsing something," so I thought it was implied.

It was in yours, but not in WillyNilly's:

Quote
I have never had a double sink or known anyone in real life with one. Nor have I ever known a non-professional sink to be filled with water to wash dishes.

To use a single sink, you just neatly stack the dishes in the sink, soap up sponge and run the water. You rinse, wipe/scrub the dish with the sponge, then rinse under running water, and put in dish rack, then move to the next dish and repeat.

ETA: for dishes that need soaking - you just leave those lined up under the running water and wash last.

The bolded especially made me think she washed the dishes under running water rather than turning the water on and off, so I appreciated her explanation that that wasn't the case.

No that is the case, the water is running while I wash dishes, unless i'm scrubbing something.  But dishes take a few mere seconds to wash each.  So its:
Pile dishes up in a logical order
* Turn on water - not full blast, just a reasonable trickle
* Wet sponge & soap it
* Pick up dish and under water wipe with soapy sponge under running water (1-4 seconds), allowing the run-off (which is soapy water) to run onto dishes in the sink
* 1-2 seconds of clear water to rinse
* Put that dish to dry and move onto the next dish.

The whole sink worth is cleaned in less then 10 minutes, usually less then 5, and while yes the water was running, it was always being used. Its not just running randomly down the drain at any point without any purpose.  The amount of water used total would not fill my sink even halfway full if it was stopped up so its certainly significantly less water then the method of filling two sinks with several inches of water. The water is running but its being used every moment. Much like how a shower uses significantly less water then a bath.

If I have to scrub something I would turn off the running water, but that's a rare occurrence.  Usually I'd just let it soak (in the soapy run-off water because I would have put it in the sink prior to doing dishes so it caught the water) and then after an hour (or longer if necessary) it washes quickly using the water that already in it, and then just get's rinsed.
Title: Re: Can you please explain to clueless me how a single sink works?
Post by: TootsNYC on March 04, 2013, 10:21:16 AM
I've generally put the drying-rack into the second sink, and either spray-rinse everything in it, or briefly rinse stuff under the tap before putting it into the rack.  Of course, drying-racks used to always come with mats that would have a "lip" - meaning that you could put all the dishes onto the rack (on the counter) and use a spray to rinse them, and the rinse-water would drip back into the single sink.


I've never seen anybody spray dishes while they were on the counter!

The mat was to direct water that dripped off, yes, but I've never known anyone to spray something that was not in the sink.
Title: Re: Can you please explain to clueless me how a single sink works?
Post by: Luci on March 04, 2013, 10:27:02 AM
I would have trouble with the single sink, because of the garbage disposal.  Even if I scrape all my dishes beforehand and run the disposal, I always seem to find something that I missed and need to clean out before I can wash it.

http://www.build.com/elkay-lmr3322-gourmet-lustertone-stainless-steel-33-x-22-double-basin-top-mount-kitchen-sink/p442171   Except the smaller sink is as deep as the larger sink - and it didn't cost that much.

We put in a sink unit that has a large sink and then a smaller one with the garbage disposal in it when we designed our kitchen. I wanted the larger sink for the canner, roaster, smoker pan, and cookie sheets. I love it!

I wash and rinse our dishes under slowly running water, put some in the smaller sink to drain and some on a towel on the counter. I dry immediately. If we have more dishes, as when we have guests, I use the dishwasher and just lightly rinse the dishes into the smaller sink.
Title: Re: Can you please explain to clueless me how a single sink works?
Post by: Tilt Fairy on March 04, 2013, 10:29:39 AM
I do exactly what you do Willy Nilly. I have the item I am washing under a continuous stream of water from the tap. I take each item one at a time and wash and scrub it with a sponge and rinse it, keeping it under the tap stream the whole time. I don't ever fill up my sink and submerge my item into a sink pool at any point- either to wash or rinse. I would also guess that I use less or at least the same amount of water as if I did fill the sink. But, even if it did work out slightly more anyway, I'd still carry on doing it how I do because it's a personal preference and is just how I've always learnt to wash dishes.

Anyone could use the 'waste less water' argument for any activity that differs in frequency between people e.g. how to do laundry, how to wash the car, water the garden, when to flush etc.. etc..  but people have individual preferences and in the grand scheme of things, it's difficult to measure and people pay their bills and can choose how to use the water they pay for. I'm sure everyone uses a utility or resource in a way that others would think may at times be wasteful and vice versa but we're not talking about vastly excessive water wastage here (even if it can even be proved it uses more in the long run). I'm sure it may add up to a lot for some who pay on a meter or have high tariffs, but for others, it might only be a few more pence.

I sort of see the opposing points in this thread as similar to the bath vs shower argument. It's still unsure which one uses less water but even if there was conclusive evidence, I doubt people would change their lifestyle with regards to how they bathe - not just because the excess is likely to be minimal anyway, but mainly because some people just prefer baths over showers and some people just prefer showers over baths - for any number of reasons. Some people love baths whilst others don't like the thought of sitting in their bath water and having soapy suds on them when they come out so prefer showers. Each to their own!
Title: Re: Can you please explain to clueless me how a single sink works?
Post by: Thipu1 on March 04, 2013, 10:33:04 AM
WillyNilly's version is much like what we do with small variations. You also have to know that, in NYC, in-sink garbage disposals are not legal.  You  scoop the junk out of the strainer
  in the sink and put it into a trash bag. 

1) Soap up a sponge and start the hot water at a bit more than a trickle.

2) Wash and rinse the glasses.  Place on the drainer.

3) Wash and rinse the knives, forks and spoons.  Place in the drainer.  Once the little things are out of the way, the rest of the washing-up looks much less daunting. 

4) Pile the bowls for the side dishes in the sink. If necessary, put more soap on the sponge and go
 to work. Rinse under running water and place on the drainer. If the drainer's getting full, dry the glasses  and put them away.   

5) Do the plates in the way described above.

6) If you have something ugly to clean,  such as a fondue pot or  a lasagna pan,  squirt in more soap
 and hot water. Let the vessel sit for an hour or two.  Pour  yourself a glass of wine, turn on some nice music and relax.


Of course, if you have to pay a water bill your perception may be very different.     
   
         
Title: Re: Can you please explain to clueless me how a single sink works?
Post by: WillyNilly on March 04, 2013, 10:46:20 AM
You also have to know that, in NYC, in-sinkf garbage disposals are not legal. 

Actually they were legalized in 1997.  But some buildings still ban them, and many people still don't know they are legal.  And since so many NYers have lived without them and are totally unfamiliar with them, they aren't really thought about as something to install.  :D
Title: Re: Can you please explain to clueless me how a single sink works?
Post by: Yvaine on March 04, 2013, 10:51:31 AM

6) If you have something ugly to clean,  such as a fondue pot or  a lasagna pan,  squirt in more soap
 and hot water. Let the vessel sit for an hour or two.  Pour  yourself a glass of wine, turn on some nice music and relax.


I'm a big fan of this step.  ;D
Title: Re: Can you please explain to clueless me how a single sink works?
Post by: siamesecat2965 on March 04, 2013, 11:01:39 AM
I do exactly what you do Willy Nilly. I have the item I am washing under a continuous stream of water from the tap. I take each item one at a time and wash and scrub it with a sponge and rinse it, keeping it under the tap stream the whole time. I don't ever fill up my sink and submerge my item into a sink pool at any point- either to wash or rinse. I would also guess that I use less or at least the same amount of water as if I did fill the sink. But, even if it did work out slightly more anyway, I'd still carry on doing it how I do because it's a personal preference and is just how I've always learnt to wash dishes.

Anyone could use the 'waste less water' argument for any activity that differs in frequency between people e.g. how to do laundry, how to wash the car, water the garden, when to flush etc.. etc..  but people have individual preferences and in the grand scheme of things, it's difficult to measure and people pay their bills and can choose how to use the water they pay for. I'm sure everyone uses a utility or resource in a way that others would think may at times be wasteful and vice versa but we're not talking about vastly excessive water wastage here (even if it can even be proved it uses more in the long run). I'm sure it may add up to a lot for some who pay on a meter or have high tariffs, but for others, it might only be a few more pence.

I sort of see the opposing points in this thread as similar to the bath vs shower argument. It's still unsure which one uses less water but even if there was conclusive evidence, I doubt people would change their lifestyle with regards to how they bathe - not just because the excess is likely to be minimal anyway, but mainly because some people just prefer baths over showers and some people just prefer showers over baths - for any number of reasons. Some people love baths whilst others don't like the thought of sitting in their bath water and having soapy suds on them when they come out so prefer showers. Each to their own!

Yes, yes, and yes. While I have a dishwasher, sometimes its full and I have some leftover dishes, or things that don't go in such as my wine glasses, pots and pans, and good knives.  I wash mine under continusouly running water as that's how i was taught to do them. But I never have so many the water is running for half an hour or more. I usually turn on the water, use my brush which has a sponge head and soap resivoir, and wash, then put them aside to be dried.

If something needs soaking, I will fill it with hot water and some soap, let it soak, and go back and wash later on.  I will say my water is included in my rent, so while I am not wasteful, at least not in my mind, I don't go nuts since I'm not paying for it.

I also take baths and showers :)
Title: Re: Can you please explain to clueless me how a single sink works?
Post by: Ereine on March 04, 2013, 11:25:55 AM
The whole sink worth is cleaned in less then 10 minutes, usually less then 5, and while yes the water was running, it was always being used. Its not just running randomly down the drain at any point without any purpose.  The amount of water used total would not fill my sink even halfway full if it was stopped up so its certainly significantly less water then the method of filling two sinks with several inches of water. The water is running but its being used every moment. Much like how a shower uses significantly less water then a bath.

Here the average water speed (if you can call it that) is 10 liters per minute, so if the water is running at half the possible strength then for ten minutes that would be 50 liters which is about twice as what I use for my one sink and one tub (as for showers and baths, apparently a 5 minute shower with the water running the whole time is 75 liters, while a bath is from 150 to 200 liters, more if you shower afterwards). I pay a low fixed rate for water so it doesn't cost me anything, I just think that learning to conserve water is a good idea. Not that I'm blameless myself, I sometimes take baths and getting cold water from my taps can take some time and I wear cotton and rayon which take a lot of water to produce and have a flushing toilet and so on, I'm just pretty pessimistic about the future of the planet. 
Title: Re: Can you please explain to clueless me how a single sink works?
Post by: Arrynne on March 04, 2013, 11:56:34 AM
I grew up with a single sink.  We always had two dish pans that fit in the sink. We filled one with soapy water and one with clear for rinsing. 

If it was only one or two items, I would moisten the sponge and put some soap on it. Then scrub the dishes and then rinse them quickly under a running stream of water.
Title: Re: Can you please explain to clueless me how a single sink works?
Post by: TootsNYC on March 04, 2013, 12:08:50 PM
Here's how I do it. Stack the dishes in the sink. (put the pots and pans to the side w/ water standing in them)

Splash and spray them all with water, and let them sit a little bit.

Then squirt soap on the wet sponge and start washing them and setting the clean stuff off to the side of the stack in whatever open space (often on top of the cutlery). (Usually glasses first, bcs plates are stable ont he bottom.)

When I don't  have room to stack any more (3 or 4 glasses, sometimes; occasionally more, whatever), then I put the sponge down and rinse the clean, soapy dishes and put the in the rack. Turn off the water, and repeat (wash a few more items, again until I run out of elbow room; then rinse).

Sometimes I put the plug in the sink, and sometimes I don't. I usually do have to empty the water at least once, if I do this.
Title: Re: Can you please explain to clueless me how a single sink works?
Post by: RebeccainGA on March 04, 2013, 12:50:00 PM
I grew up only washing dishes occasionally - it was a gross job, as they were often pretty stale and unpleasant (mom and dad weren't best at hygiene). I taught myself how to do dishes consistently when I moved out:
- Start water running (hot only) and put most-gross thing under the stream (pans, casserole dishes, etc). Fill it with the silver (no knives).
- once water has come to temperature, add cold - as little as possible to avoid burns only - and wet down dish wand (sponge replacement heads on a reservoir of soap). Start washing delicate things (glasses) and work up to the stuff that's really tricky (like that pan that's been under the water this whole time, letting the silver get washed off most of the way. Silver next to last, scrubbed individually but rinsed as a handful, and then that last really gross pan, using the water in it to rinse down everything that's stuck to the outside of the sink's bowl as you've been washing. Air dry.

Uses a minimal amount of water (I leave it all of about halfway on - even with the low-flow aerator, stream the size of a jumbo pencil at most).
Title: Re: Can you please explain to clueless me how a single sink works?
Post by: sevenday on March 04, 2013, 04:34:21 PM
Not sure if it was mentioned before, but what I did when I moved into this place (single sink) was I went to Walmart and bought a dish drainer with one of those pads that directs the water back into the sink. Right next to them were these plastic tubs about the same size.  I would just run some cool water into the tub, put it on one side of the sink, dish drainer on the other - soapy water in the sink, swing left to dip into the water to rinse off, then cross over to the drainer to sit and wait until I was done.  Then I'd dry the dishes and use the rinse water to wash down any suds or whatever left when the sink drained.
Title: Re: Can you please explain to clueless me how a single sink works?
Post by: katycoo on March 04, 2013, 04:45:50 PM
I guess I wasn't clear enough that it's just the perception of it, kind of like to some people not rinsing dishes seems really odd (it seems to me too, all our general dish washing soaps have warning labels and though it probably applies more to it undiluted, I still don't want digest it).

If you towel dry your dishes you don't nigest it anyway - you're wiping any residue off.
Title: Re: Can you please explain to clueless me how a single sink works?
Post by: Judah on March 04, 2013, 04:53:56 PM
I have one of these (http://www.plumbingsupply.com/images/elkay-cmr3322-double-bowl-drop-in-kitchen-sink-5-hole-stainless-steel.jpg), so I have the best of both worlds. 

I wash by stacking the dishes on the counter to the left of the sink.  Squirt a little soap on the sponge, scrub the dish, pass it under the running water, then leave it on the drying mat to dry. Since most things go in the dishwasher, I doubt I use enough water to even fill the sink.
Title: Re: Can you please explain to clueless me how a single sink works?
Post by: Thipu1 on March 04, 2013, 05:28:49 PM
You also have to know that, in NYC, in-sinkf garbage disposals are not legal. 

Actually they were legalized in 1997.  But some buildings still ban them, and many people still don't know they are legal.  And since so many NYers have lived without them and are totally unfamiliar with them, they aren't really thought about as something to install.  :D

Thanks, WillyNilly.  That's good to know although we won't be installing one.  After all, the gunk in the strainer is probably the cleanest thing in the house. 
Title: Re: Can you please explain to clueless me how a single sink works?
Post by: TootsNYC on March 04, 2013, 05:31:27 PM
I guess I wasn't clear enough that it's just the perception of it, kind of like to some people not rinsing dishes seems really odd (it seems to me too, all our general dish washing soaps have warning labels and though it probably applies more to it undiluted, I still don't want digest it).

If you towel dry your dishes you don't nigest it anyway - you're wiping any residue off.

Or smearing it around? From dish to dish?
Title: Re: Can you please explain to clueless me how a single sink works?
Post by: Tilt Fairy on March 04, 2013, 05:38:08 PM
What about food particles in addition to soap suds? If you don't rinse a plate and just put it on the drying rack after pulling it out of the pool of standing water it's been washed in, don't you sometimes miss the odd bit of tiny watery wet carrot or string of tomato or coriander leaf that gets loosely stuck to a plate as you pull it out the sink?
Title: Re: Can you please explain to clueless me how a single sink works?
Post by: Luci on March 04, 2013, 05:45:32 PM
I have one of these (http://www.plumbingsupply.com/images/elkay-cmr3322-double-bowl-drop-in-kitchen-sink-5-hole-stainless-steel.jpg), so I have the best of both worlds. 

I wash by stacking the dishes on the counter to the left of the sink.  Squirt a little soap on the sponge, scrub the dish, pass it under the running water, then leave it on the drying mat to dry. Since most things go in the dishwasher, I doubt I use enough water to even fill the sink.

That is exactly what I do. I have put the plug in to see what would happen and it only filled the large sink about 3 or 4 ", so a lot less  water is used than the dishwasher would. I can't stand washing in wather that has even minute debris floating in it, so will continue washing under lightly running water when possible.
Title: Re: Can you please explain to clueless me how a single sink works?
Post by: Julian on March 04, 2013, 05:57:26 PM
For anyone who has never experienced water restrictions, it can be hard to imagine what it's like.

I lived in a mainland Australian state during a period of severe water restrictions - we were up to Level 6.  It was due to a combination of infrastructure not keeping up with population growth and non-existant rainfall in our catchment areas, even though we got the odd rainstorm in the city.  Mains pressure had been reduced, washing cars and any sort of external water use was banned except bucket watering.  4 minute showers.  We'd put buckets in the shower to collect water for the garden, no flushing except for #2's, wash up in bowls to save the water for the garden.  It was tough.  Even now the sight of a tap running for no purpose* gives me the horrors.

My house at the time had a double sink - we used smaller bowls to save water, and rinsed quickly in the second bowl.

During this time my ex and I built an investment property - by law we were required to plumb for town water, water tanks and recycled water, and install tanks on the property.  The tank and recyc (when it came on line, very controversial at the time) were to be used for laundry, toilets etc.

At the time I also installed a water tank at home.  It made a difference - even drought-tolerant plants need a drink occasionally.

*During this time, I watched a US produced 'true life' haunting show - where they dramatise events of a documented haunting, usually they're pretty chilling.  In this one show, a woman went into the bathroom to brush her teeth, turned the tap on full blast before she'd even loaded her toothbrush, and wandered around the bathroom aimlessly while the water ran.  I was screaming at the TV - 'Turn off the darned water!'  It scared me more than the ghostly activity did... :-[
 
Title: Re: Can you please explain to clueless me how a single sink works?
Post by: squeakers on March 04, 2013, 06:57:58 PM
Looking around it seems that it gets contentious all over the 'net and from way back as far as 2004 people have argued which method is better and more hygienic.  I'll skip chiming in on either and just share this

http://forums.egullet.org/topic/41408-dishes-no-rinsing-in-water-after-washing/page-3 specifically this posted by Vinter "The important fact that mixer taps are very recent in the UK seems to have been overlooked, but it explains much of the non-rinsing. Most of the installed plumbing in the UK has a hot tap and a cold tap, and the only way to mix an intermediate temperature is in a closed sink or basin. The hot water is these days kept very hot to avoid Legionnaires Disease, and in winter the cold is very cold; neither is tolerable for running-water rinsing."
Title: Re: Can you please explain to clueless me how a single sink works?
Post by: Curly Wurly Doggie Breath on March 04, 2013, 07:22:38 PM
:( I dont have a mixer tap. But i do want one. sighh
Title: Re: Can you please explain to clueless me how a single sink works?
Post by: katycoo on March 04, 2013, 07:27:28 PM
I guess I wasn't clear enough that it's just the perception of it, kind of like to some people not rinsing dishes seems really odd (it seems to me too, all our general dish washing soaps have warning labels and though it probably applies more to it undiluted, I still don't want digest it).

If you towel dry your dishes you don't nigest it anyway - you're wiping any residue off.

Or smearing it around? From dish to dish?

Nope.  There's not enough to smear it around.  The suds mostly drain off with the excess water.  You can see there's no residue left on the dish.  Its clean and dry.

I have never even in my life seen or taste from a 'cleaned' plate with any soap or liquid reside.

So I conclude that it is either a difference in the dishsoaps between countries, or skill at washing up.
Title: Re: Can you please explain to clueless me how a single sink works?
Post by: Bijou on March 04, 2013, 07:45:16 PM
I don't think that I could bring myself to rinse under running water, it seems so wasteful.

You only turn on the faucet in really short bursts--i.e. only when you have a dish to rinse--and I bet the amount of water used is lower than if you filled a sink of standing water. It doesn't just run the whole time.

That's why I said it seems wasteful, not that it necessarily is :) I think that we were taught at school that leaving water running is evil and obviously it applies to everything. I usually wash quite a lot of dishes at a time (because I hate doing them and am lazy) and I think that rinsing them would probably take as much water as my plastic tub and it seems easier to me.

How do you shower?  or flush a toilet?
I don't think anyone is advocating just leaving the water running randomly, but rather during active washing/rinsing time, no different then rinsing your hands, or your toothbrush or your hair.
Right. 
Title: Re: Can you please explain to clueless me how a single sink works?
Post by: Ereine on March 04, 2013, 11:55:20 PM
I don't think that I could bring myself to rinse under running water, it seems so wasteful.

You only turn on the faucet in really short bursts--i.e. only when you have a dish to rinse--and I bet the amount of water used is lower than if you filled a sink of standing water. It doesn't just run the whole time.

That's why I said it seems wasteful, not that it necessarily is :) I think that we were taught at school that leaving water running is evil and obviously it applies to everything. I usually wash quite a lot of dishes at a time (because I hate doing them and am lazy) and I think that rinsing them would probably take as much water as my plastic tub and it seems easier to me.

How do you shower?  or flush a toilet?
I don't think anyone is advocating just leaving the water running randomly, but rather during active washing/rinsing time, no different then rinsing your hands, or your toothbrush or your hair.
Right.

I don't leave the shower running for the whole time so it's more like the method where you only turn on the water for a few seconds to rinse. And frankly flushing toilets are really wasteful.
Title: Re: Can you please explain to clueless me how a single sink works?
Post by: StarFaerie on March 05, 2013, 01:08:32 AM
What about food particles in addition to soap suds? If you don't rinse a plate and just put it on the drying rack after pulling it out of the pool of standing water it's been washed in, don't you sometimes miss the odd bit of tiny watery wet carrot or string of tomato or coriander leaf that gets loosely stuck to a plate as you pull it out the sink?

Never had a problem with it. There's quite a bit of water in the sink, you scrape off the worst of any solid stuff, you wash the really dirty stuff last and replace the water if it gets too dirty.
Title: Re: Can you please explain to clueless me how a single sink works?
Post by: MariaE on March 05, 2013, 01:49:16 AM
What about food particles in addition to soap suds? If you don't rinse a plate and just put it on the drying rack after pulling it out of the pool of standing water it's been washed in, don't you sometimes miss the odd bit of tiny watery wet carrot or string of tomato or coriander leaf that gets loosely stuck to a plate as you pull it out the sink?

Never had a problem with it. There's quite a bit of water in the sink, you scrape off the worst of any solid stuff, you wash the really dirty stuff last and replace the water if it gets too dirty.

Exactly. Besides, I always rinse the dishes immediately after use to get the worst stuff off before it dried and got all crusty, so the water didn't actually have all that much food residue in it.
Title: Re: Can you please explain to clueless me how a single sink works?
Post by: CakeEater on March 05, 2013, 06:07:40 AM
I've never rinsed while washing up and never had a problem with soap or bits of food left on plates. They all come out of the water pretty clean.
Title: Re: Can you please explain to clueless me how a single sink works?
Post by: bloo on March 05, 2013, 08:52:43 AM
"Posted 05 May 2004 - 11:26 AM

 washing and rinsing dishes? making sure the uneaten food-bits get cleared away? loooxooory! when we were young we didn't have plates--father passed around a piece of bone and we took turns licking it. later when we had money we had a sink and hot water. the neighbours would bring all their dirty dishes to soak in it--we called it soup, i can still taste it."


http://forums.egullet.org/topic/41408-dishes-no-rinsing-in-water-after-washing/?p=594703

Squeakers, thanks for posting the link to the discussion. The above link is to the comment I've copied-n-pasted above in italics.

I laughed til I cried... ;D
Title: Re: Can you please explain to clueless me how a single sink works?
Post by: Redsoil on March 06, 2013, 05:24:41 AM
I do like that one, Bloo!
Title: Re: Can you please explain to clueless me how a single sink works?
Post by: sammycat on March 06, 2013, 09:52:56 PM
For anyone who has never experienced water restrictions, it can be hard to imagine what it's like.

I lived in a mainland Australian state during a period of severe water restrictions - we were up to Level 6.  It was due to a combination of infrastructure not keeping up with population growth and non-existant rainfall in our catchment areas, even though we got the odd rainstorm in the city.  Mains pressure had been reduced, washing cars and any sort of external water use was banned except bucket watering.  4 minute showers.  We'd put buckets in the shower to collect water for the garden, no flushing except for #2's, wash up in bowls to save the water for the garden.  It was tough.  Even now the sight of a tap running for no purpose* gives me the horrors.

In this one show, a woman went into the bathroom to brush her teeth, turned the tap on full blast before she'd even loaded her toothbrush, and wandered around the bathroom aimlessly while the water ran.  I was screaming at the TV - 'Turn off the darned water!'  It scared me more than the ghostly activity did... :-[
 

We must live in the same city. Most of those things are now ingrained into me even though (some) restrictions have been lifted, with the exception of the showers. 4 minutes just ain't gonna cut it!

And yes, seeing people running water in the manner of that TV show gives me the willies now! I don't even turn the water on to brush my teeth until the toothpaste is on the brush, and it gets turned off again as soon as the brush is wet, and in between needing to be rinsed.
Title: Re: Can you please explain to clueless me how a single sink works?
Post by: sammycat on March 06, 2013, 10:26:24 PM
What about food particles in addition to soap suds? If you don't rinse a plate and just put it on the drying rack after pulling it out of the pool of standing water it's been washed in, don't you sometimes miss the odd bit of tiny watery wet carrot or string of tomato or coriander leaf that gets loosely stuck to a plate as you pull it out the sink?

Not if the dishes are washed properly. If (general) you does notice something still stuck it's as simple as putting it back into the sink of water and washing it off.

For smaller quantities, I will wash, put the dishes in the dish drainer (which sits on the draining board) and then use a mug or glass to pour water over them to rinse, as this uses less water than simply running a tap.

This is how I do I do too, although most people I know just leave them to air dry (or dry as they go) without pouring any water over them.

As for actually washing the dishes that don't get put in the dishwasher - they are rinsed or scrapped if required, then all sit on the side of the bench, and are placed one at a time into the sink full of hot soapy water. They are washed with the cloth and then placed in the drying rack.

Please explain because as written that disgusting and unsanitary sounding! 

Add me to the growing list who found that comment very offensive.

I grew up in NZ - I don't know if it's regional or not, but most homes when I grew up had a single sink.  And you washed the dishes by washing the crockery and cutlery first, then the glasses (which my mum always filled with hot water before we dried them so they wouldn't streak).  then you washed the more heavily dirty items.  If you needed to, you refilled the sink, but we never rinsed the dishes at all. 

And none of us got sick from it. 

I grew up in NZ too, with a single sink, washing cups/glasses, then crockery and then more heavily diritied items.  No rinsing.

I live in Australia now, and we have 2 sinks, but I've never used the second for rinsing. The few times I've tried it elsewhere, (A) it seemed like a waste of water, and (B) after the first few dishes, the second sink was full of suds, which rather negated the rinsing anyway.

Title: Re: Can you please explain to clueless me how a single sink works?
Post by: bloo on March 07, 2013, 07:16:40 AM
I'm just curious. Some New Zealanders and Europeans have commented about that they don't rinse. This surprised me and having worked in different commercial kitchens over the last 25+ years, I've always seen the 3-sink system (wash, rinse, sanitize) as I mentioned in an earlier post.

Is the 'no rinse' method also the way it's done in non-US commercial kitchens? Apparently many of us Americans have a love affair with rinsing :).

I've never been a fan of a sink full of stopped-up rinse water as I disliked how soapy it gets but I really can't imagine not rinsing my dishes. I've always done it in running water so I'm fascinated by the different ways people do it.
Title: Re: Can you please explain to clueless me how a single sink works?
Post by: MariaE on March 07, 2013, 08:24:45 AM
Is the 'no rinse' method also the way it's done in non-US commercial kitchens? Apparently many of us Americans have a love affair with rinsing :).

That's been my experience with the few commercial kitchens I've worked in in Denmark and New Zealand. But granted, my experience is very limited in both countries. I've only worked in 2 in Denmark and 1 in NZ.
Title: Re: Can you please explain to clueless me how a single sink works?
Post by: Luci on March 07, 2013, 09:19:27 AM

I live in Australia now, and we have 2 sinks, but I've never used the second for rinsing. The few times I've tried it elsewhere, (A) it seemed like a waste of water, and (B) after the first few dishes, the second sink was full of suds, which rather negated the rinsing anyway.

That would to me be an indication that they do need rinsing.

I rinse under running water, but when we are camping, I can rinse the dishes for a dinner for four in less than a quart of hot water. (We have to carry the water in and boil it ourselves - believer me, we don't waste it!)

There is also a difference between dish soap and dish detergent. In the US, most of us use detergent, which can be toxic if not rinsed off. I think too much soap simply causes a little gastric distress, but if you guys use soap and are used to it, I guess not.

I am not trying to be critical, just explain how we think.
Title: Re: Can you please explain to clueless me how a single sink works?
Post by: CakeEater on March 07, 2013, 07:33:56 PM
We use detergent as well. There's just not enough on any individual plate to cause stomach issues. You can't taste it.
Title: Re: Can you please explain to clueless me how a single sink works?
Post by: katycoo on March 07, 2013, 08:04:40 PM
Re the poster who asked about stray bits of food clinging to the plate - I would scrape all bits of carrot etc into the bin before washing, possibly rinse before washing to remove excess sauce etc.

Is the 'no rinse' method also the way it's done in non-US commercial kitchens? Apparently many of us Americans have a love affair with rinsing :).

No idea, sorry.
Title: Re: Can you please explain to clueless me how a single sink works?
Post by: amandaelizabeth on March 07, 2013, 08:17:03 PM
Posting from New Zealand.  I went and looked in my kitchen cupboard.  I had both kiwi dishwashing liquid and a parallel imported brand.  Both as it happens is made by the same multinational.  As above the kiwi one, just said one small drop is enough and the other one - from the philipines mentioned rinsing well.

I know that in commercial kitchens - for those catering for more than 4 people you are required to use a commercial dishwasher.

Hope that helps
Title: Re: Can you please explain to clueless me how a single sink works?
Post by: Thipu1 on March 08, 2013, 10:30:49 AM
:( I dont have a mixer tap. But i do want one. sighh

I'd never heard the term 'mixer tap' but our kitchen has one.  The faucet has a lever.  Extreme right produces very cold water.  Extreme left produces steaming hot water.  You just push the lever to get the temperature you want.  Our bathroom sinks have hot and cold knobs but the bathtubs have a similar sliding mechanism.
Title: Re: Can you please explain to clueless me how a single sink works?
Post by: Julian on March 08, 2013, 10:38:22 PM

We must live in the same city. Most of those things are now ingrained into me even though (some) restrictions have been lifted, with the exception of the showers. 4 minutes just ain't gonna cut it!

And yes, seeing people running water in the manner of that TV show gives me the willies now! I don't even turn the water on to brush my teeth until the toothpaste is on the brush, and it gets turned off again as soon as the brush is wet, and in between needing to be rinsed.

Brisbane?   ;)

I'm down in the deep, deep south now (Tasmania) and as dry as the weather is, no water restrictions now.  We are occasionally limited to 'no sprinklers on fire ban days' because it reduces available water pressure to the fire fighters.  Mind boggling...  meanwhile the grass (what grass???) has dried brown, nothing green shows itself, and the occasional spit of rain is just a tease.

Sorry for the threadjack!   ;D