Etiquette Hell

General Etiquette => Life...in general => Topic started by: joraemi on March 23, 2013, 09:09:45 AM

Title: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE #87,#173**
Post by: joraemi on March 23, 2013, 09:09:45 AM
I am posting this question for DD and her BFF.

  DD/BFF are seniors this year and prom is right around the corner.  The norm for our area is that you have a prom "group" so to speak.  This is the group of kids you are going to have dinner with, share the cost of a limo/partybus, hang out with at after prom, etc.  The girls have had their group well established for several weeks already - not everyone has dates, some are just going with "the group".

Issue:  There is another girl (AG from here on out) at school who does not have a date that is trying to insert herself into their group. This would not seem overly problematic, except that the last time she did this (Homecoming), she CLUNG to DD the entire evening. DD does not particuarly care for this person and it kind of ruined her homecoming experience.  AG literally *chased* DD at the Homecoming dance when DD slipped away for a moment. DD has also had issues this year with AG trying to copy her homework instead of doing it herself, not pulling her weight when assigned together in a group, etc.

DD has tried to subtley let on that this girl is not part of the group and that DD will not be hanging out with her.  She doesn't seem to be getting the message. As a side note, the other members of the group are not friends with AG in any way, shape, or form.

Yesterday's convo:

AG: Do you have a date yet?
DD: No.
AG: Perfect! Neither do I, so it'll just be me, you, AG1, and AG2. (AG1 and AG2 are not part of the group either....)
DD:(managed to not have jaw hit floor....) I suppose their will be other people at the dance that don't have dates.  ***makes escape***

DD knows that little snippet didn't do anything to deter AG, but she just doesn't know what to say and she doesn't want to be mean. However, it's Senior prom and she wants to enjoy it! She doesn't want to have to manage this situation at the dance, you know?

 AG lives just 3 houses away from us, but they *never* hang out outside of school.  DD considers this girl an acquaintance at best, but AG seems to think they are BFFs.

When I had nothing constructive to offer in the way of advice I knew exactly where to come!

So please E-hellions, bestow your wisdom upon us.  How can DD make it perfectly clear to AG that she is not part of their group and they will NOT be spending time together at Prom?

(let me know if you need clarification on anything!)
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on
Post by: LeveeWoman on March 23, 2013, 09:16:55 AM
Is she trying to force herself into the limo?
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on
Post by: AmethystAnne on March 23, 2013, 09:19:39 AM
I would have you and your DD go to her BFF's house to catch the limo.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on
Post by: postalslave on March 23, 2013, 09:26:11 AM
Your daughter has to be honest and tell this girl she is not invited. The easiest way would be to apologize for the confusion and explain she is part of a separate group and try to encourage the other girls to be their own group.

I feel bad for AG. I can only imagine how horrible it would feel to think you're part of a prom group only to find out the group ran away and caught the limo somewhere else.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on
Post by: LeveeWoman on March 23, 2013, 09:35:17 AM
Your daughter has to be honest and tell this girl she is not invited. The easiest way would be to apologize for the confusion and explain she is part of a separate group and try to encourage the other girls to be their own group.

I feel bad for AG. I can only imagine how horrible it would feel to think you're part of a prom group only to find out the group ran away and caught the limo somewhere else.

AG is not part of the group that will be paying for the limo.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on
Post by: *inviteseller on March 23, 2013, 09:37:03 AM
Your daughter has to be honest and tell this girl she is not invited. The easiest way would be to apologize for the confusion and explain she is part of a separate group and try to encourage the other girls to be their own group.

I feel bad for AG. I can only imagine how horrible it would feel to think you're part of a prom group only to find out the group ran away and caught the limo somewhere else.
the girl has deluded herself into thinking she is OP's DD's BFF (that was alot of initials!)  It doesn't sound like anyone has even remotely given this girl the idea she is part of their group. She is just a social leech  and while it is a shame she has these ideas, it is not OP's DD's responsibility to apologize for any confusion that DD did not create, nor be this girls social director.  I know that sounds harsh but any attention DD spends on this girl will only encourage the fantasy that they are besties forever and ever!

The next time AG brings it up to your daughter, your daughter needs to nicely but firmly tell her "no, you are not coming in our limo" .  Hopefully she will not just show up anyways, but if she does, just repeat "you are not coming in our limo". .  Do you know the girls parents to maybe say something to them?  Sometimes, as much as we want to see out kids handle things on their own, we need to step in when it gets to be too much for them.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on
Post by: gramma dishes on March 23, 2013, 09:48:13 AM


Yesterday's convo:

AG: Do you have a date yet?
DD: No.
AG: Perfect! Neither do I, so it'll just be me, you, AG1, and AG2. (AG1 and AG2 are not part of the group either....)
DD:(managed to not have jaw hit floor....) I suppose their will be other people at the dance that don't have dates.  ***makes escape***


There will NOT be room in any limo for that many people anyway.  DD should say "No, actually our arrangements for the limo have already been made and there definitely will not be room for any additional people.  You and AG1 and AG2 and any other AGs who want to be with you need to make your own dinner and other arrangements and rent your own limo."
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on
Post by: Sharnita on March 23, 2013, 09:52:35 AM
So it isn't the limo, it is that DD want's her to stay away once they are at prom?  I don't know that she can do that without being so blunt that it borders on mean. She can ask others in the group to share the load and talk to AG, distract her, take turns asking her to dance, get punch, etc.

If they don't see each other very often this should be about the last eventshe has to worry about this girl so going to the extreme of saying "Stay away from us, we don't actually like you" when she has a natural esacpe in the form of graduation and moving on seems a bit OTT.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on
Post by: *inviteseller on March 23, 2013, 10:03:45 AM
Sharnita...I agree that this will be the last big event as they are graduating and she can get away from this girl, but if the girl almost ruined her homecoming experience by attaching herself to DD, she will do the same thing at the prom, which is a once in a lifetime experience.  I think the girl needs to be told, up front, that she is not part of the group.  It can be done nicely but she has to be told in no uncertain terms that they are not prom dates!!! OP's DD should not have to run and hide, nor should her friends have to run interference because this girl is obsessed with this make believe friendship.  Yelling "Get away from me!!" is not recommended, but if this is all that is going through OP's DD's head the whole prom, she will not have any fun.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on
Post by: Sharnita on March 23, 2013, 10:11:27 AM
Sharnita...I agree that this will be the last big event as they are graduating and she can get away from this girl, but if the girl almost ruined her homecoming experience by attaching herself to DD, she will do the same thing at the prom, which is a once in a lifetime experience.  I think the girl needs to be told, up front, that she is not part of the group.  It can be done nicely but she has to be told in no uncertain terms that they are not prom dates!!! OP's DD should not have to run and hide, nor should her friends have to run interference because this girl is obsessed with this make believe friendship.  Yelling "Get away from me!!" is not recommended, but if this is all that is going through OP's DD's head the whole prom, she will not have any fun.

I'm not sure it can be done nicely (or at least gently) and still have her get the point.  And I think knowing that they hurt her feelings deeply culd also almost ruin the event.  I think it is a crummy situation for DD but sometimes the reality is that either way you have choices you aren't going to like, through no fault of your own. This girl is not taking hints, even broad ones.  They could broadside her with the painful truth but she would be hurt and they would be upset because they hurt her which would just result in a bad night all the same.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on
Post by: gramma dishes on March 23, 2013, 10:13:55 AM
Sharnita...I agree that this will be the last big event as they are graduating and she can get away from this girl, but if the girl almost ruined her homecoming experience by attaching herself to DD, she will do the same thing at the prom, which is a once in a lifetime experience.  I think the girl needs to be told, up front, that she is not part of the group.  It can be done nicely but she has to be told in no uncertain terms that they are not prom dates!!! OP's DD should not have to run and hide, nor should her friends have to run interference because this girl is obsessed with this make believe friendship.  Yelling "Get away from me!!" is not recommended, but if this is all that is going through OP's DD's head the whole prom, she will not have any fun.

I agree.   This really is a once in a lifetime experience and DD should be able to actually, you know, ENJOY it!!  And she isn't going to be able to do so if AG is following her around, clinging to her, inserting herself into a group of girls who do not enjoy or appreciate her company.

I think DD should take the girl aside privately and explain as sweetly as possible that her group has already made their plans concerning dinner, the limo and whatever else plans have been made and just tell her that they aren't including any "new" participants in their plans. 

She should suggest that AG get together with AG1 and AG2 and figure out their own plans for the evening, but she should not allow AG to assume that DD and her friends are going to hang out with AG and AG's other friends that night.  Despite her attempts to horn in on DD's group and plans, she does deserve a head's up that it just isn't going to work out the way AG wants!
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on
Post by: WillyNilly on March 23, 2013, 10:14:29 AM
Your daughter needs to be frank with this girl.  And that starts with her learning what 'not being mean is'. Your DD thinks its mean to tell this girl "I might not have a date but I do have a plan for prom and its not with you, or AG2 or AG3. Its with Mary, Sarah and Laura. I hope you have fun, and of course I'll see you there, but I'll be hanging out with my friends at prom and don't want you chasing me like you did at Homecoming."

And yeah that won't be an overly nice thing to say to AG. But it is the truth, and ultimately the truth is less mean then a lie. Which what your DD is doing (by omission).

In the long run its a lot less mean then leading AG on. Because right now AG thinks they are friends. And that's a lie. They are acquaintances.  And acquaintances that are going to grow even farther apart soon as college or jobs takes each girl in different directions. It is far kinder to break-up sooner then to string someone along with false hope for longer.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on
Post by: *inviteseller on March 23, 2013, 10:24:30 AM
I don't think this girl's feelings are more important than OP's DDs.  They are not friends (only in AG's mind) have never been and her stalkerish ways almost ruined her homecoming experience.  It has to be nipped in the bud, and if it seems mean to to tell this girl, "look, you need to make your own plans for prom.  I have mine already set with my friends, you need to figure something out with your group for transportation, dinner, and DURING the dance."  If we tell the DD to keep worrying about the AG's feelings, we are just telling her that DD's own feelings aren't as important and she needs to keep the peace.  Time to not be a doormat and stand up to this person. 
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on
Post by: gramma dishes on March 23, 2013, 10:28:53 AM
I don't think this girl's feelings are more important than OP's DDs.  They are not friends (only in AG's mind) have never been and her stalkerish ways almost ruined her homecoming experience.  It has to be nipped in the bud, and if it seems mean to to tell this girl, "look, you need to make your own plans for prom.  I have mine already set with my friends, you need to figure something out with your group for transportation, dinner, and DURING the dance."  If we tell the DD to keep worrying about the AG's feelings, we are just telling her that DD's own feelings aren't as important and she needs to keep the peace.  Time to not be a doormat and stand up to this person.

I totally agree.  Being "mean" would be to allow this girl to think she's going to be a part of DD's group and then having them reject her all night long.   AG needs to be told the score, gently yes, but told.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on
Post by: Shoo on March 23, 2013, 10:28:56 AM
Your daughter needs to be frank with this girl.  And that starts with her learning what 'not being mean is'. Your DD thinks its mean to tell this girl "I might not have a date but I do have a plan for prom and its not with you, or AG2 or AG3. Its with Mary, Sarah and Laura. I hope you have fun, and of course I'll see you there, but I'll be hanging out with my friends at prom and don't want you chasing me like you did at Homecoming."


I think this strikes just the right balance of directness and niceness. 

OP, your daughter needs to have this conversation ASAP.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on
Post by: Sharnita on March 23, 2013, 10:31:06 AM
I don't think this girl's feelings are more important than OP's DDs.  They are not friends (only in AG's mind) have never been and her stalkerish ways almost ruined her homecoming experience.  It has to be nipped in the bud, and if it seems mean to to tell this girl, "look, you need to make your own plans for prom.  I have mine already set with my friends, you need to figure something out with your group for transportation, dinner, and DURING the dance."  If we tell the DD to keep worrying about the AG's feelings, we are just telling her that DD's own feelings aren't as important and she needs to keep the peace.  Time to not be a doormat and stand up to this person.

Who said they were?  The problem is that DD is going to feel bad telling this girl not to even come around them during the dance because she isn't a part of the group of friends she thinks she is.  It is all well and good to tell DD not to worry about AG's feelings but I fail to see how she tells somebody something like that without feeling bad herself - which kind of defeats the whole goal of enjoying prom.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on
Post by: TootsNYC on March 23, 2013, 10:39:02 AM
Sharnita...I agree that this will be the last big event as they are graduating and she can get away from this girl, but if the girl almost ruined her homecoming experience by attaching herself to DD, she will do the same thing at the prom, which is a once in a lifetime experience.  I think the girl needs to be told, up front, that she is not part of the group.  It can be done nicely but she has to be told in no uncertain terms that they are not prom dates!!! OP's DD should not have to run and hide, nor should her friends have to run interference because this girl is obsessed with this make believe friendship.  Yelling "Get away from me!!" is not recommended, but if this is all that is going through OP's DD's head the whole prom, she will not have any fun.

I'm not sure it can be done nicely (or at least gently) and still have her get the point.  And I think knowing that they hurt her feelings deeply culd also almost ruin the event.  I think it is a crummy situation for DD but sometimes the reality is that either way you have choices you aren't going to like, through no fault of your own. This girl is not taking hints, even broad ones.  They could broadside her with the painful truth but she would be hurt and they would be upset because they hurt her which would just result in a bad night all the same.

I agree that it can't be done *effectively* without hurting this girl's feelings, but it still can be done nicely.
And the OP's DD and her friends need to realize that they do NOT have to worry about not hurting her feelings at all.

They only need to worry about not GRATUITOUSLY hurting her feelings.

So the DD can say, "I'm sorry--I have plans to spend the night with a group of my friends. I can't include you."

She should say it right away. And pleasantly. Without *too* much regret.

Your DD needs to internalize the idea that she is not being rude--that this girl is in error. Sort of like, her zipper's undone or something. That this girl has wrong information and your DD is actually honor-bound to *correct* it.  And that's what she's doing--correcting her, not rejecting her.

It will help if she also internalized the idea that the "party" is not hers alone, and so she is not authorized to include this girl in the party. (even if she is the one who would most object to her being included)

And your DD may need to gear herself up for saying, "I'm sorry, but I don't want to spend prom with you. I have plans already." (the second time she has to say this, she should add on, "with my friends" (implication being, you're not one of them)

(In fact, your DD *does* have "a date"--all the rest of her friends are "her dates," and so that's what she needs to say. "I have plans.")

Then, to make herself feel stronger (and better about herself), she should remember: Once she does say, "I have plans with my friends, adn I can't include you," this girl should get a clue. If she doesn't, then your DD is now in self-defense mode, and she is entitled to feel a little bit resentful.


(also, the sooner she does it, the better. It's kinder to the girl, for one. And easier on her because she'll have it over with and will have time to fix it so

Meanwhile, you and DD might role play some ways to completely discourage conversations with this girl at all--how to arrange so that your DD's lack of interest in a friendship is clearer.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on
Post by: WillyNilly on March 23, 2013, 10:55:31 AM
Sharnita...I agree that this will be the last big event as they are graduating and she can get away from this girl, but if the girl almost ruined her homecoming experience by attaching herself to DD, she will do the same thing at the prom, which is a once in a lifetime experience.  I think the girl needs to be told, up front, that she is not part of the group.  It can be done nicely but she has to be told in no uncertain terms that they are not prom dates!!! OP's DD should not have to run and hide, nor should her friends have to run interference because this girl is obsessed with this make believe friendship.  Yelling "Get away from me!!" is not recommended, but if this is all that is going through OP's DD's head the whole prom, she will not have any fun.

I'm not sure it can be done nicely (or at least gently) and still have her get the point.  And I think knowing that they hurt her feelings deeply culd also almost ruin the event.  I think it is a crummy situation for DD but sometimes the reality is that either way you have choices you aren't going to like, through no fault of your own. This girl is not taking hints, even broad ones.  They could broadside her with the painful truth but she would be hurt and they would be upset because they hurt her which would just result in a bad night all the same.

Being nice =/= not hurting the girls feelings.

The girl's feelings will be hurt. That's going to happen no matter what. either they will be hurt Monday when OP's DD tells her the real deal, or they will be hurt on prom night when DD and her friends get fed up and yell at her, or they will be hurt by September when DD has gone off to college and forgotten this girl. No matter what, her feelings will be hurt. Its probably best for everyone involved to just accept that.

So once that's accepted one has to go forth with 'what is the least cruel way to hurt her feelings'? Letting someone down softly is a great life skill. And its a kindness, not a mean act. Mean is stringing someone long for a lie.


Years ago I was dating a guy. I loved him. I wanted to marry him and live happily ever after. But he didn't feel the same way. He kindly, and gently broke things off. I was very hurt. But after a bit, I respected and appreciated him for it. We remain casual friends, me happily married to someone else and him happily single, and think very highly of him.
Another past boyfriend... well I was honest from the start that I wasn't looking to casually date, my goal was marriage and kids etc. He agreed and led me to believe that was his goal too. But after 2 years it had come about in several conversations he didn't believe in the institution of marriage and felt living together and having kids was the same thing and he never wanted to get married (as in past or present, he'd never liked the idea). We broke up and to this day I think he is a horrible broken person for it. Not because he didn't want to marry (me), but because he wasn't honest about things and strung me along on a lie for 2 years. Last I heard he's stringing along another woman in a several years long engagement with no actual wedding plans made.

Sometimes the truth hurts, even kind truths. Its always better & kinder to hear the truth earlier and go forth a bit bruised but seeing things for what they are and acting on honest realities then to be led on by lies and basing decisions on falsehoods.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on
Post by: Amara on March 23, 2013, 11:37:30 AM
What a painful situation. I feel for both the girls. And others have given you some good ways in which it could be done. My only suggestion is that it be done as soon as possible. The longer it goes on the worse it will be for everyone.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on
Post by: rain on March 23, 2013, 01:06:11 PM
I like Toot's suggested wording/conversation starter
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on
Post by: JoyinVirginia on March 23, 2013, 01:28:31 PM
DD finished high school last year.  DD had a friend, nice sweet girl but socially clueless and awkward and often came up with these elaborate plans of what they would do, always making assumptions about what dd would enjoy.  The most blatant example is she planned an after-graduation beach trip using OUR house with OUR CAR being transportation.  Her mother called me to discuss the beach trip, and I told the mom it was not happening, and I had no idea how her daughter came up with all these plans!
Your dd, or you, have to be blunt but not unnecessarily cruel but CLEAR AND DIRECT.  AG, I am going to prom with a group and I will be hanging with this group and our plans are already made. You have to make plans with other friends. And by the way, stop trying to copy my papers.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on
Post by: Mannerless on March 23, 2013, 01:30:29 PM
What about others in the established group.  How do they feel about AG?  Is OPs daughter involved in coordinating all the plans?  Should there be a consensus of all in the group?

I do feel bad for the daughter and the AG.  But a limo can only safely seat so many.  I'd say that it is at capacity already.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on
Post by: joraemi on March 23, 2013, 01:49:21 PM
Hi Everyone!

OP here.  Thanks for all the suggestions/wording.

The Limo/partybus isn't the issue, I don't think. At Homecoming AG didn't try to insert herslef there, but was literally sitting at a table by the door watching for my DD to arrive and latched on to her from that very moment on.

I do agree that DD is going to have to learn to let people down without being mean - hurt feelings don't always equal someone being mean.  I suppose now is as good a time as any to start getting that lesson under belt.

Do you all recommend that she not say anything until AG brings it up again (which will most likely be at school since they don't see each other any other place)?  Or should she be proactive and approach AG?  I haven't been able to think of a polite way for her to bring it up - everything I have thought of comes across as snarky when I type it out.  :-\
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on
Post by: Sharnita on March 23, 2013, 01:59:00 PM
It sounds like the issue is actually how to stay aeay/keep her away at prom itself. And  that is trickier necause the nature of prom tends to be that you mix and mingle a bit beyond your group. If people all just kept to "their" group prom would kind of be a dud.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on
Post by: GrammarNerd on March 23, 2013, 02:11:37 PM
I would have your DD approach the girl, and say something like: "AG, you mentioned something last week about prom, like we were going to hang together at prom and do all of the prom stuff together.  But...I won't be doing prom stuff with you.  I have my own plans with my own group, and I'll be hanging out with them during the dance.  I'm sorry I didn't tell you then, but we don't really hang out  or do stuff together anyway, so I was just really shocked that you were assuming that I'd be in on all of your plans.  So you and AG2 and AG3 can feel free to make your own plans and you don't have to worry about me."

Maybe role-play a little with your DD, so she feels she can say everything without clamming up or getting nervous. 
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on
Post by: JeseC on March 23, 2013, 03:02:41 PM
I would have your DD approach the girl, and say something like: "AG, you mentioned something last week about prom, like we were going to hang together at prom and do all of the prom stuff together.  But...I won't be doing prom stuff with you.  I have my own plans with my own group, and I'll be hanging out with them during the dance.  I'm sorry I didn't tell you then, but we don't really hang out  or do stuff together anyway, so I was just really shocked that you were assuming that I'd be in on all of your plans.  So you and AG2 and AG3 can feel free to make your own plans and you don't have to worry about me."

Maybe role-play a little with your DD, so she feels she can say everything without clamming up or getting nervous.

I'd second this.  Maybe have a follow-up of "You know, you really made me uncomfortable at Homecoming.  I don't feel like we're really that close, and I want to spend time with my friends at these events before we all go off to college.  Please don't try to monopolize my time again."

And if it becomes an issue at prom:  "I'm sorry, AG, I want to go talk to other people now.  Please leave me alone."  Then walk away.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on
Post by: gramma dishes on March 23, 2013, 03:11:05 PM


I agree that it can't be done *effectively* without hurting this girl's feelings, but it still can be done nicely.
And the OP's DD and her friends need to realize that they do NOT have to worry about not hurting her feelings at all.

They only need to worry about not GRATUITOUSLY hurting her feelings.

So the DD can say, "I'm sorry--I have plans to spend the night with a group of my friends. I can't include you."

She should say it right away. And pleasantly. Without *too* much regret.

Your DD needs to internalize the idea that she is not being rude--that this girl is in error. Sort of like, her zipper's undone or something. That this girl has wrong information and your DD is actually honor-bound to *correct* it.  And that's what she's doing--correcting her, not rejecting her.

It will help if she also internalized the idea that the "party" is not hers alone, and so she is not authorized to include this girl in the party. (even if she is the one who would most object to her being included)

And your DD may need to gear herself up for saying, "I'm sorry, but I don't want to spend prom with you. I have plans already." (the second time she has to say this, she should add on, "with my friends" (implication being, you're not one of them)

(In fact, your DD *does* have "a date"--all the rest of her friends are "her dates," and so that's what she needs to say. "I have plans.")

Then, to make herself feel stronger (and better about herself), she should remember: Once she does say, "I have plans with my friends, adn I can't include you," this girl should get a clue. If she doesn't, then your DD is now in self-defense mode, and she is entitled to feel a little bit resentful.


(also, the sooner she does it, the better. It's kinder to the girl, for one. And easier on her because she'll have it over with and will have time to fix it so

Meanwhile, you and DD might role play some ways to completely discourage conversations with this girl at all--how to arrange so that your DD's lack of interest in a friendship is clearer.

Toots has given you good starter words. 

I do think it would be better if this were discussed privately before the prom so the girl isn't sitting there all night waiting for your daughter to show up and then glom onto her the second she walks through the door like she did at Homecoming.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on
Post by: MommyPenguin on March 23, 2013, 03:27:16 PM
I think if possible it's best to get this done before prom, so that she isn't expecting to hang out with DD at prom and experiencing more disappointment at the night.  It would be *nice* if AG brought it up ahead of time and DD got the chance to tell her that they won't be hanging out without having to bring it up herself, but it might not happen, and I think it's better for the conversation to be sooner than later.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on
Post by: sweetonsno on March 23, 2013, 03:50:01 PM
Yikes. Poor girl. Poor DD, too!

I agree that she needs to address this with the prombarnacle before the prom and be ready to lather, rinse, repeat at the dance itself.

Toots and WillyNilly both have some good wording. I think your DD should start with something simple and not too heavy-handed. "I just want to make sure that you don't think I'm going to the prom as part of your group w/OtherGirls. I've already got plans with another group of friends. I'm sure I'll see you there, but I intend to spend most of my time with them."

If Prombarnacle tries to combine groups or suggest that DD leave her group (or something equally unacceptable), DD should pull out the "I'm afraid that won't be possible."

At the prom, I think she should say hello to this girl and have a brief chat, then excuse herself.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on
Post by: Alpacas on March 23, 2013, 04:09:37 PM
I think there is also no harm in practicing "Please leave me alone" and "Please stop following me around." with DD should AG ignore all the Clue by fours.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on
Post by: Softly Spoken on March 23, 2013, 05:14:31 PM


I agree that it can't be done *effectively* without hurting this girl's feelings, but it still can be done nicely.
And the OP's DD and her friends need to realize that they do NOT have to worry about not hurting her feelings at all.

They only need to worry about not GRATUITOUSLY hurting her feelings.

So the DD can say, "I'm sorry--I have plans to spend the night with a group of my friends. I can't include you."

She should say it right away. And pleasantly. Without *too* much regret.

Your DD needs to internalize the idea that she is not being rude--that this girl is in error. Sort of like, her zipper's undone or something. That this girl has wrong information and your DD is actually honor-bound to *correct* it.  And that's what she's doing--correcting her, not rejecting her.

It will help if she also internalized the idea that the "party" is not hers alone, and so she is not authorized to include this girl in the party. (even if she is the one who would most object to her being included)

And your DD may need to gear herself up for saying, "I'm sorry, but I don't want to can't spend prom with you. I have plans already." (the second time she has to say this, she should add on, "with my friends" (implication being, you're not one of them)

(In fact, your DD *does* have "a date"--all the rest of her friends are "her dates," and so that's what she needs to say. "I have plans.")

Then, to make herself feel stronger (and better about herself), she should remember: Once she does say, "I have plans with my friends, adn I can't include you," this girl should get a clue. If she doesn't, then your DD is now in self-defense mode, and she is entitled to feel a little bit resentful.


(also, the sooner she does it, the better. It's kinder to the girl, for one. And easier on her because she'll have it over with and will have time to fix it so

Meanwhile, you and DD might role play some ways to completely discourage conversations with this girl at all--how to arrange so that your DD's lack of interest in a friendship is clearer.

Toots has given you good starter words. 

I do think it would be better if this were discussed privately before the prom so the girl isn't sitting there all night waiting for your daughter to show up and then glom onto her the second she walks through the door like she did at Homecoming.

I wanted to add my two cents about this. I think some things need to be said and some don't - this is what will affect how much AG gets hurt. IMHO DD does not need to say anything to suggest that she does not like AG and does not want to hang out with her - that is unnecessarily mean. If you don't want to be with someone, don't say so and make a point of telling them you don't like them! So don't say "I don't want" - say "Sorry, I can't." DD should use her etiquette obligations as a shield - she can't hang with AG because she already promised the night to her other friends.
I would recommend "Sorry with a Smile" - since AG is so oblivious and prone to steamrolling, all responses to her should be bright and informative as if DD is doing her a favor by kindly correcting her assumptions:

AG: Oh you and I are going to have so much fun with *AGs other friends* at Prom!
DD: *big friendly smile* Oh I know we'll all have fun...*serious frown* But sorry AG I can't hang with you, I already made plans to go to Prom with *DDs own group*. I didn't get a chance to tell you before, you should have asked me sooner - oh well! *Brilliant smile again* I'm sure we'll all have a blast right? Woo hoo Prom! Are you *BEAN DIP OUT TO WAZOO!* blah blah prom dress yadda yadda oh look at that I'm late for class bye!

Now, if AG insists that they can ALL hang out on Prom, or moves in to cling when DD gets there, DD can act surprised and amused and put AGs behavior off as silly for both of them. Instead of saying "Get away from me," she should redirect AGs attention to *food/music/hot guy/wow what is she wearing etc.*
AG: I'm going to hang with you!
DD: *lightly* Oh why would you want to hang with me, you have So and So and she's so cool are you guys *bean dip*, well I'm off to *whatever*. I'm sure we'll see each other around,
AG: I'll come with you.
DD: Oh you are so sweet but that would be mean to *AGs posse* you don't want them thinking you ditched them for me.
AG: Then we'll all hang together.
DD: Oh that would be fun but we came to hang as *DD group* and *AG group* we'll just keep it that way.
AG: But we could all-
DD: Yeah I know it would be great but I'm just hanging with *My group* tonight. Have fun with *Your group*!
AG: Oh come on... *makes a move to latch on*
DD: *laughing lightly like AG is joking* Oh AG, why are you following me around? You so kuh-razy! It's not like we can spend every second together.  ::) Ohmuhgaw stop being silly- look HotCuteGuy is checking you out you should go talk to him! *Quick Exit!*

DD doesn't have to convince AG of anything or give her any explanation. Just tell her what the reality is: "I am going to hang out with my group, so I can't hang out with you." Friends are loyal and keep their promises. They don't intrude on each other and they give each other their space. Act like AG understands that, and hopefully she will, or at least just pretend she does!
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on
Post by: Calypso on March 23, 2013, 05:32:04 PM
It's been a long time since I was prom age, and I was too self-conscious to put myself into situations where I didn't know for sure I was welcome, so this suggestion may be way off.

What if DD to AG aside and said, "AG, I want to talk to you about Homecoming. What's your memory of that night?"
AG: (DD listens respectfully) "Oh, we did this and that and etc and it was really fun."
DD: "OK, I need to be upfront with you about something. That isn't how I experienced it. To me, it felt like you were waiting at the door for me, and then stayed with me all night, even when I tried to step away for a couple of minutes to talk to someone else. It wasn't how I'd pictured the night going."
AG: (is embarrassed) "Oh I didn't mean to, etc etc etc"
DD: "It's ok. What happened happened, it's just that it's not how I want to spend Prom. And you're a terrific person (or whatever is natural for DD to say) and I think you should have more respect for yourself. You don't need to latch on to me to have a good time. Just chill out, enjoy being with A and B and C, get your dance on. Ok?"

Title: Re: Prom Cling-on
Post by: JeseC on March 23, 2013, 05:40:51 PM
I wanted to add my two cents about this. I think some things need to be said and some don't - this is what will affect how much AG gets hurt. IMHO DD does not need to say anything to suggest that she does not like AG and does not want to hang out with her - that is unnecessarily mean. If you don't want to be with someone, don't say so and make a point of telling them you don't like them! So don't say "I don't want" - say "Sorry, I can't." DD should use her etiquette obligations as a shield - she can't hang with AG because she already promised the night to her other friends.
I would recommend "Sorry with a Smile" - since AG is so oblivious and prone to steamrolling, all responses to her should be bright and informative as if DD is doing her a favor by kindly correcting her assumptions:

AG: Oh you and I are going to have so much fun with *AGs other friends* at Prom!
DD: *big friendly smile* Oh I know we'll all have fun...*serious frown* But sorry AG I can't hang with you, I already made plans to go to Prom with *DDs own group*. I didn't get a chance to tell you before, you should have asked me sooner - oh well! *Brilliant smile again* I'm sure we'll all have a blast right? Woo hoo Prom! Are you *BEAN DIP OUT TO WAZOO!* blah blah prom dress yadda yadda oh look at that I'm late for class bye!

Now, if AG insists that they can ALL hang out on Prom, or moves in to cling when DD gets there, DD can act surprised and amused and put AGs behavior off as silly for both of them. Instead of saying "Get away from me," she should redirect AGs attention to *food/music/hot guy/wow what is she wearing etc.*
AG: I'm going to hang with you!
DD: *lightly* Oh why would you want to hang with me, you have So and So and she's so cool are you guys *bean dip*, well I'm off to *whatever*. I'm sure we'll see each other around,
AG: I'll come with you.
DD: Oh you are so sweet but that would be mean to *AGs posse* you don't want them thinking you ditched them for me.
AG: Then we'll all hang together.
DD: Oh that would be fun but we came to hang as *DD group* and *AG group* we'll just keep it that way.
AG: But we could all-
DD: Yeah I know it would be great but I'm just hanging with *My group* tonight. Have fun with *Your group*!
AG: Oh come on... *makes a move to latch on*
DD: *laughing lightly like AG is joking* Oh AG, why are you following me around? You so kuh-razy! It's not like we can spend every second together.  ::) Ohmuhgaw stop being silly- look HotCuteGuy is checking you out you should go talk to him! *Quick Exit!*

DD doesn't have to convince AG of anything or give her any explanation. Just tell her what the reality is: "I am going to hang out with my group, so I can't hang out with you." Friends are loyal and keep their promises. They don't intrude on each other and they give each other their space. Act like AG understands that, and hopefully she will, or at least just pretend she does!

I have to say, I worry that this is a case where "can't" isn't going to work.  It sounds like if DD says "can't", that's going to be a signal to AG to try to solve whatever problems there are.  And I don't want DD to have to spend an entire night coming up with redirections.  I would put it in terms of "don't know you that well" instead of "don't like you", though - "I'm sorry, AG, but I just don't feel like I know you that well, and with college coming up soon I really want to spend time with my friends.  Why don't you go hang with A and B?"
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on
Post by: joraemi on March 23, 2013, 06:26:56 PM
Op Here -

This is quite the situation isn't it?  Ugh. 

Anyway - I got some additional info from DD today that is NOT going to make it any easier.  When I was sharing your advice with her and I asked again who AG's other friends were that she planned to hang out with and DD said, "MOM - this is exactly the problem I've been trying to explain to you.  They aren't her friends.  They're part of our group! She's just sticking herself in with us and assuming she can hang out with us.  No one wants to do this!". Ultimately though, DD is the one that AG clings to.  :-\

I think in DD's mind part of the problem is that if AG doesn't hang out with them, DD doesn't know who (if anyone) AG will have to hang out with, and as a nice girl/people pleaser, DD is having a hard time with this. She really does not enjoy this girl's company, but feels sorry for her all at the same time.

I had to laugh - when I gave her some of the suggested wording for telling AG it just wasn't going to happen she went, "WOW." and closed her eyes and took a deep breath like she was having to summon up courage just to think about it.  LOL
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on
Post by: something.new.every.day on March 23, 2013, 06:46:16 PM
Op Here -

This is quite the situation isn't it?  Ugh. 

Anyway - I got some additional info from DD today that is NOT going to make it any easier.  When I was sharing your advice with her and I asked again who AG's other friends were that she planned to hang out with and DD said, "MOM - this is exactly the problem I've been trying to explain to you.  They aren't her friends.  They're part of our group! She's just sticking herself in with us and assuming she can hang out with us.  No one wants to do this!". Ultimately though, DD is the one that AG clings to.  :-\

I think in DD's mind part of the problem is that if AG doesn't hang out with them, DD doesn't know who (if anyone) AG will have to hang out with, and as a nice girl/people pleaser, DD is having a hard time with this. She really does not enjoy this girl's company, but feels sorry for her all at the same time.

I had to laugh - when I gave her some of the suggested wording for telling AG it just wasn't going to happen she went, "WOW." and closed her eyes and took a deep breath like she was having to summon up courage just to think about it.  LOL

Given the update (so sad), it does not sound like this poor girl has any friends.  Is she in any activities?  Maybe your DD could re-direct her by saying, "I already have plans with a group, but you should go with your friends from soccer/band/whatever."

And I don't have kids and am several years out from high school, so take this with a grain of salt, but can anyone alert a school guidance counselor or someone that this girl does not seem to have any friends?  Perhaps she needs some help with life skills, getting put into an activity--something! 
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on
Post by: WillyNilly on March 23, 2013, 07:04:39 PM
With all due respect Softly Spoken, I completely disagree with your idea OP's DD shouldn't say "don't want to" (post #30).  This is not a situation of "can't"; she absolutely can hang out with AG, the truth is she doesn't want to. Let's imagine this was a guy asking her out on a date persistently. She could say "oh sorry I can't, I'm washing my hair that night" or "I can't, I'm dating Bill" but that leaves the situation open for the guy to offer another night, or watch her closely until she breaks up with Bill.  The better answer is "thank you for the offer, but I don't feel that way about you" (aka "I don't want to date you.") This girl is doing the same thing. Heck she might even have a crush on OP's DD!

Essentially you are suggesting OP's DD do what we always say don't do: JADE. DD does not have to have a justification. She does not need to argue her point or defend her current plans. She does not need an excuse to not hang out with this girl beyond "I don't want to."

Yes its hurtful for the girl to hear the people she likes don't want to hang out with her. But that's DD's fault or responsibility. DD's responsibility is to be honest and true to herself. She can be gentle, but she absolutely should be truthful - she doesn't want to hang with AG. And to her knowledge the greater group does not want AG around either.

And OP, when talking DD through this think about her age - she is going to have to learn to say "don't want to" in a strong way at college (to boys, to peer pressure, etc), or in the work world very very soon. This is an excellent opportunity for her to learn that skill.  Its a skill that will save her years of heartache and misery.

I think to a certain extent it would be ok for DD to get some help from her friends. I definitely think the first 'hey this isn't going to happen' conversation should be gently but firmly delivered by your DD. But after that, especially if it comes down to it at prom, her friends can chime in "sorry AG but didn't DD tell you she couldn't hang with you all night? Why don't you find some other friends for a while? We're having a private conversation here" or "sorry AG but we were invited to Sam's after-party personally, its not our place to just bring you."
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on
Post by: Minmom3 on March 23, 2013, 07:52:52 PM
I think it highly important to remind OP's DD that SOMEBODY is going to be unhappy, no matter how this resolves itself.  It isn't DD's duty to be the Unhappy Person.  AG is going to be unhappy unless she's allowed to glom onto DD, which DD is anticipating unhappily.  DD does need to figure out HOW to break it to AG that her plans aren't DDs plans, and DD has other plans.  AG is going to be unhappy if she doesn't get what she wants, but it isn't DDs job to make AG happy, which means she's going to have to figure out HOW the heck to say what needs saying.  I'd think role playing might be a huge help to DD in deciding how to say what needs saying, and resigning herself that she's going to make AG unhappy, because the alternative is that DD is unhappy.  Manners do not require us to be a doormat when someone else has unreasonable expectations...  It's just awkward as hell to DO something about it!   :-\  I predict that DD is going to need to be both blunt and repetitive to get through AG's preconceptions of Prom.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on
Post by: YummyMummy66 on March 23, 2013, 07:53:33 PM
Next time Ag approachers your dd about the  prom, your dd needs to state firmly, "AG, I am sorry, but I already have previous plans with some other friends as far as dinner and getting to the prom, but I am sure I will see you there".   If AG persists and asks to be included, "I'm sorry AG.  Everything has already been paid for and decided.  Again, I am sure I will see you at the prom sometime during the evening". 
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on
Post by: loopyluna on March 23, 2013, 08:25:30 PM
I can't think of any useful answers, because this one just keeps running in circles in my head. Your daughter doesn't have to do something she doesn't want to do, but without careful tact and compassion she will sound unnecessarily catty/cliquish. The ideal time to gently let this girl know she isn't part of this social circle has long since past, and no matter how your daughter approaches it this will not be an easy conversation.

This entire thread just makes me so sad for this girl. Once upon a time I was a socially awkward high school student, though I was fortunate enough to find my own band of misfits. It sounds like this girl doesn't even have that much. Were I in AG's position, I honestly don't know what wording would make me feel least awful about this, only that I would wish someone had said something sooner. I can only hope AG understands that, for people like her and me, life gets so much better after high school.

However this works out, I hope both girls understand that while things like homecoming and prom seem like Really Big Deals when you're a high school senior, in the grand scheme of things they really aren't.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on
Post by: Sharnita on March 23, 2013, 09:30:53 PM
I think the thing that I am getting stuck on is that at prom itself "groups" intermingle.  Random Ralph who wasn't in your limo or at dinner and who doesn't normally hang with you might exchange a few words or even dance with your group - or in their general area, and then be on his way.  SOmetimes Sue might do the same thing.  They certainly don't attach themselves for the whole night or monopolize all of one person's attention but their is more mixing than the various groups ususually do.  This was my experience when I attended prom and has been the case at the many proms I've chaperoned.  I guess there are other schools where that might not be the case but it seems to be kind of the point of prom.  If OP and her group are obviously willing to intercat with people beyond their group it is going to become obvious that AG is the one person they are completely excluding.  And unlike the others, it doesn't sound like she would understand casual/limited interaction. 
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on
Post by: Softly Spoken on March 23, 2013, 10:14:20 PM
With all due respect Softly Spoken, I completely disagree with your idea OP's DD shouldn't say "don't want to" (post #30).  This is not a situation of "can't"; she absolutely can hang out with AG, the truth is she doesn't want to. Let's imagine this was a guy asking her out on a date persistently. She could say "oh sorry I can't, I'm washing my hair that night" or "I can't, I'm dating Bill" but that leaves the situation open for the guy to offer another night, or watch her closely until she breaks up with Bill.  The better answer is "thank you for the offer, but I don't feel that way about you" (aka "I don't want to date you.") Actually, "I don't feel that way" is an explanation of why she doesn't want to date him, and that wouldn't necessarily stop him either. This girl is doing the same thing. Heck she might even have a crush on OP's DD!

Essentially you are suggesting OP's DD do what we always say don't do: JADE. DD does not have to have a justification. She does not need to argue her point or defend her current plans. She does not need an excuse to not hang out with this girl beyond "I don't want to."

Yes its hurtful for the girl to hear the people she likes don't want to hang out with her. But that's DD's fault or responsibility. DD's responsibility is to be honest and true to herself. She can be gentle, but she absolutely should be truthful - she doesn't want to hang with AG. And to her knowledge the greater group does not want AG around either.

And OP, when talking DD through this think about her age - she is going to have to learn to say "don't want to" in a strong way at college (to boys, to peer pressure, etc), or in the work world very very soon. This is an excellent opportunity for her to learn that skill.  Its a skill that will save her years of heartache and misery.

I think to a certain extent it would be ok for DD to get some help from her friends. I definitely think the first 'hey this isn't going to happen' conversation should be gently but firmly delivered by your DD. But after that, especially if it comes down to it at prom, her friends can chime in "sorry AG but didn't DD tell you she couldn't hang with you all night? Why don't you find some other friends for a while? We're having a private conversation here" or "sorry AG but we were invited to Sam's after-party personally, its not our place to just bring you."
I understand what you are saying to a point. It seems like there is a clash between taking care of ones own needs and being as polite as possible to others (without sacrificing boundaries). I have to say I am having trouble understanding how "don't want to" is better or more appropriate in the bolded life situations you described. If people are pushy they are pushy. Also, part of being a grown-up often means doing things even though we don't want to because life is tough. Say your boss asks you to work late - which would you tell them: "Oh sorry I can't" or "I don't want to"? I'm pretty sure that in that situation "I don't want to" would not fly! IMHO, "can't" is useful because it suggests forces outside of our control - "Oh I can't work late I have a prior commitment/have to pick up kid from *sport practice* etc.". You think "I don't want to" is a good thing to say in response to peer pressure? By definition, peer pressure does not respect the wants of an individual. Why not instead say "Oh I can't my Mom would kill me!" You are suggesting that stating your wants/not-wants is a way to show your strength - standing up for what you want is great and expressing your wants is great...but people are rarely impressed when we say what we don't want. If a five year old said "I don't want to clean my room," do you think his parent would reply with "Well, I respect your wants so you don't have to"? We can't always get what we want, sometimes it doesn't matter what we want, and rude people rarely care about our wants. How many "I don't want to"s have been answered with "Tough beans"?

If I recall correctly, many many people have been cast to fiery eHell as Special Snowflakes because the only reason they gave for not doing something was "But I don't want to!"

When it comes to the pushy and the clueless, both "can't" and "don't want" will probably be met with a whiny or belligerent "Why not?" People who aren't getting what they want always try and force a JADE.

I was under the impression that most etiquette rules operate on the assumption that bluntness is called for only if diplomacy fails. I have seen mostly bluntness being encouraged under the assumption that AG is social clueless and must be dealt with more harshly or it won't sink in. True to my handle, I chose to suggest the diplomatic route first. I feel that the suggested wording above that I underlined went beyond blunt and into harsh and catty territory. Everyone here, whether they have kids or not, can most likely say from personal experience that adolescent self-esteem is a fragile thing. There is a world of difference between AG being hurt because DD didn't want to hang with her on Prom, and AG being hurt because she was told that she was a total loser who no one wants to hang out with. :( I don't think DD and her friends should (or want to) be personally responsible for telling AG the reality of her place in the social hierarchy.

*deep cleansing breath*

The emotional charge that seems to flow behind every event in a teen's life also seems to be muddying the etiquette waters. This is not about AGs likability, her place among the girls, or even her relationship with DD - any and all of which may change at any time. This is about ONE NIGHT, and how DD is going to get through it and enjoy herself. I POD Minmom3. DD doesn't have to turn this into a *thing.* She has plans that do not include AG. Period. She should try and say so as politely as possible, and be prepared to practice her evasion tactics on Prom Night. Incidentally, since the Prom is a gathering of all the school kids, DD is not actually entitled to an AG-free night no matter how she may wish for it or try and ask for it. If she were at her own home she could refuse to answer the door if AG came by, but she can't resent AG occupying the same gymnasium (or whatever public space it's being held in) or even the space next to her for that matter! AG has the right to be there and to talk to (or try to talk to) anyone she wants. DD has the right to be there and to talk to (or not talk to) anyone she wants. The only thing she has control over is how politely she makes her socialization choices.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on
Post by: Sharnita on March 23, 2013, 10:23:10 PM
Softly Spoken, I think you articulated what I have been thinking.  This is not DD's group outing, not exactly.  It is the school's prom.  When you decide to go to prom it is with the understanding that it is open to all qualifying students who will be sharing your social event.  You decide to go with the knowledge you will be having a celebration with people beyond your tightest group.  There becomes a balancing act between enjoying yourself and being polite to the other attendees who aren't your bestees.  So I don't know that you could reasonably tell somebody not to sit at your table if there were extra seats available.  It is their prom too.  It might be better to invite others to fill those seats.  I am not saying DD's wish for peace is wrong, just that the etiquette of ding this is a bit trickier than if she tried to include herself in a trip to the movies.  At a certain point trying to get the message across without stepping over the line could be more stressful than just trying to evade her.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on
Post by: SPuck on March 23, 2013, 10:30:53 PM
As someone who was socially awkward in high school (Aspergers) has been that clingy person and dealt with other people who are socially awkward, at this point diplomacy doesn't sound like it will work and DD has to be blunt with AG. You can only take being nice so far where to the point a person is being coddled and not learning how to act in public. Even though the poster's DD is in a public place she has a right to an AG free night. No one person has the right to monopolize one person's attention. If subtle hints don't work the direct path has to be taken. I can sympathize with AG, but as someone who has had these social problems no one person deserves to be her crutch.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on
Post by: WillyNilly on March 23, 2013, 10:32:06 PM
With all due respect Softly Spoken, I completely disagree with your idea OP's DD shouldn't say "don't want to" (post #30).  This is not a situation of "can't"; she absolutely can hang out with AG, the truth is she doesn't want to. Let's imagine this was a guy asking her out on a date persistently. She could say "oh sorry I can't, I'm washing my hair that night" or "I can't, I'm dating Bill" but that leaves the situation open for the guy to offer another night, or watch her closely until she breaks up with Bill.  The better answer is "thank you for the offer, but I don't feel that way about you" (aka "I don't want to date you.") Actually, "I don't feel that way" is an explanation of why she doesn't want to date him, and that wouldn't necessarily stop him either. This girl is doing the same thing. Heck she might even have a crush on OP's DD!

Essentially you are suggesting OP's DD do what we always say don't do: JADE. DD does not have to have a justification. She does not need to argue her point or defend her current plans. She does not need an excuse to not hang out with this girl beyond "I don't want to."

Yes its hurtful for the girl to hear the people she likes don't want to hang out with her. But that's DD's fault or responsibility. DD's responsibility is to be honest and true to herself. She can be gentle, but she absolutely should be truthful - she doesn't want to hang with AG. And to her knowledge the greater group does not want AG around either.

And OP, when talking DD through this think about her age - she is going to have to learn to say "don't want to" in a strong way at college (to boys, to peer pressure, etc), or in the work world very very soon. This is an excellent opportunity for her to learn that skill.  Its a skill that will save her years of heartache and misery.

I think to a certain extent it would be ok for DD to get some help from her friends. I definitely think the first 'hey this isn't going to happen' conversation should be gently but firmly delivered by your DD. But after that, especially if it comes down to it at prom, her friends can chime in "sorry AG but didn't DD tell you she couldn't hang with you all night? Why don't you find some other friends for a while? We're having a private conversation here" or "sorry AG but we were invited to Sam's after-party personally, its not our place to just bring you."
I understand what you are saying to a point. It seems like there is a clash between taking care of ones own needs and being as polite as possible to others (without sacrificing boundaries). I have to say I am having trouble understanding how "don't want to" is better or more appropriate in the bolded life situations you described. If people are pushy they are pushy. Also, part of being a grown-up often means doing things even though we don't want to because life is tough. Say your boss asks you to work late - which would you tell them: "Oh sorry I can't" or "I don't want to"? I'm pretty sure that in that situation "I don't want to" would not fly! IMHO, "can't" is useful because it suggests forces outside of our control - "Oh I can't work late I have a prior commitment/have to pick up kid from *sport practice* etc.". You think "I don't want to" is a good thing to say in response to peer pressure? By definition, peer pressure does not respect the wants of an individual. Why not instead say "Oh I can't my Mom would kill me!" You are suggesting that stating your wants/not-wants is a way to show your strength - standing up for what you want is great and expressing your wants is great...but people are rarely impressed when we say what we don't want. If a five year old said "I don't want to clean my room," do you think his parent would reply with "Well, I respect your wants so you don't have to"? We can't always get what we want, sometimes it doesn't matter what we want, and rude people rarely care about our wants. How many "I don't want to"s have been answered with "Tough beans"?

If I recall correctly, many many people have been cast to fiery eHell as Special Snowflakes because the only reason they gave for not doing something was "But I don't want to!"

When it comes to the pushy and the clueless, both "can't" and "don't want" will probably be met with a whiny or belligerent "Why not?" People who aren't getting what they want always try and force a JADE.

I was under the impression that most etiquette rules operate on the assumption that bluntness is called for only if diplomacy fails. I have seen mostly bluntness being encouraged under the assumption that AG is social clueless and must be dealt with more harshly or it won't sink in. True to my handle, I chose to suggest the diplomatic route first. I feel that the suggested wording above that I underlined went beyond blunt and into harsh and catty territory. Everyone here, whether they have kids or not, can most likely say from personal experience that adolescent self-esteem is a fragile thing. There is a world of difference between AG being hurt because DD didn't want to hang with her on Prom, and AG being hurt because she was told that she was a total loser who no one wants to hang out with. :( I don't think DD and her friends should (or want to) be personally responsible for telling AG the reality of her place in the social hierarchy.

*deep cleansing breath*

The emotional charge that seems to flow behind every event in a teen's life also seems to be muddying the etiquette waters. This is not about AGs likability, her place among the girls, or even her relationship with DD - any and all of which may change at any time. This is about ONE NIGHT, and how DD is going to get through it and enjoy herself. I POD Minmom3. DD doesn't have to turn this into a *thing.* She has plans that do not include AG. Period. She should try and say so as politely as possible, and be prepared to practice her evasion tactics on Prom Night. Incidentally, since the Prom is a gathering of all the school kids, DD is not actually entitled to an AG-free night no matter how she may wish for it or try and ask for it. If she were at her own home she could refuse to answer the door if AG came by, but she can't resent AG occupying the same gymnasium (or whatever public space it's being held in) or even the space next to her for that matter! AG has the right to be there and to talk to (or try to talk to) anyone she wants. DD has the right to be there and to talk to (or not talk to) anyone she wants. The only thing she has control over is how politely she makes her socialization choices.

Whoa, in no way did I suggest OP's DD tell AG " that she was a total loser who no one wants to hang out with." In fact in the statement you underlined I suggested verbiage that tells AG she has other friends at the prom available to choose from.

I also think your examples of "I don't want to" scenarios are non applicable. This is not a situation of responsibility like a child being told to clean their room or an employer assigning work. This is a voluntary social situation. I remember adolescence peer pressure and in my experience saying "I don't want to smoke pot/have sex/get drunk" was a significantly stronger statement then "my mom would kill me..." Blaming ones parents for the reason for declining opens a person up to ridicule for being immature, and lots of suggestions of how to hide the action from TPTB. A confident "no that's not my thing" got way more respect.

I also disagree "[t]his is about ONE NIGHT, and how DD is going to get through it and enjoy herself." This is an on-going issue. This was already an issue at a previous night (Homecoming), and there is the repeated issue of AG bringing up the topic of prom as well as AG repeatedly trying to copy OP's DD's homework. No DD can't be assured of an "AG-free night" but she should be free to attend school and prom without worrying about being stalked and followed. A few moments of interaction?  Sure. Several hours of a human shadow?  Not ok.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on
Post by: *inviteseller on March 23, 2013, 10:54:18 PM
It is a 'don't want to' situation, and there is nothing wrong with op's dd wanting to spend her prom night with her friends.  Yes, you do intermingle, but, altho it seems ages ago, I do remember all my different formals through school, and you primarily hung out with your main group of friends.  This girl is a classmate of the DD's, not a friend.  The DD is NOT responsible for being this girls social director...for finding her friends or making sure that she is happy and comfortable at the prom.  The DD is not being cruel to the girl, she just does not want to be her 'date' at her prom.  Hints are not working, and your DD is a very sweet girl for not being cruel or nasty as some high school girls can be (I have a high schooler and some of the stuff is just brutal), but she needs to nip this in the bud now before her anger and frustration over this girls attachment does boil over and she says something she may regret.  It is unfortunate that this girl is going to be hurt, but that is not the DD's problem.  If this was a guy exhibiting the same behavior, we would be saying he is a stalker.  Just because it is another girl, doesn't make it any less creepy when she has a friendship built up in her head, when none exists.  The sooner she learns that her dream night with the DD is not going to happen, the better because if it comes to a head the night of the prom, everyone is going to be miserable.  OP, you said she is a neighbor.  Do you know the parents?  Is there a way you could casually talk to them?
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on
Post by: Rusty on March 23, 2013, 11:05:12 PM
I agree your DD is in quite an awkward and somewhat sad situation, sad for the girl concerned, and very awkward for your DD.  My own DD had a somewhat similar situation herself, a girl who was not a friend trying to insert herself into DD's group and limo for her final year formal (prom).   As the limo was leaving from our house I rang the girl concerned's mother and explained that there would not be room for her and the mother got the message that her daughter was trying to join a group she was not normally associated with.  I felt sad for her but what is the point of pretending.

In this case if your DD cannot bring herself to speak to the girl in person, how about sending her a carefully worded email (not text), explaining that your DD's group had made plans for the evening and that as she is not normally a part of their group, she was not to be included and that although DD wished her the best she does not want to be responsible for her for the evening. 

Whatever way it is done it will be harsh, but they will all be moving on and there is no point in spoiling the night for DD and her friends.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on
Post by: LifeOnPluto on March 23, 2013, 11:24:28 PM
Wow, I feel very sad for this girl. But I also completely understand how annoying her behavour must be for your DD and her friends.

I think there's two issues here:

1) AG trying to insert herself into the pre-prom and post-prom plans; and

2) The possibility of AG clinging to your DD at the prom all night long.

Issue 1 is easier to resolve. As others have said, your DD needs to let her know BEFORE prom-day that she isn't part of that group's plans.  I believe it is possible to do this kindly but firmly. Eg "Hey AG, the other day you mentioned something about us going to the prom together. I should have told you at the time, but I've already made arrangements. I'm going with my group of friends. But I'm sure we'll see each other at the actual prom."

If she says "Can I be part of your group? I'm just one more person, etc", your DD should reply with "Plans have already been settled. It's not going to be possible to change them."

(It will also help if the pre-prom celebrations aren't taking place at your house. If another girl is hosting, that lets your DD off the hook somewhat.)

Issue 2 is tougher, since - as PPs have stated - people are expected to mingle somewhat at the prom. As such, I don't think your DD (and her group) can really demand that AG keep her distance all night. I remember at my school ball, most of our time was spent in a loose circle on the dance floor, bopping to the music. There actually wasn't "that" much conversation happening. If your DD's dance is the same, I think it would be a kindness to let AG join their "dance circle".

That said, if AG latches onto your DD and follows her around all night, that's a different story. Your DD shouldn't have to put up with that. I've found that a good approach is to say "Hey, why don't we go and talk to Ted and Alice?" Then after a few moments conversation, DD can move onto a different group, leaving AG to chat with Ted and Alice.

Of course, there's the chance that AG will leave Ted and Alice, and run after DD. In which case, I think DD can be more blunt, and say "Hey AG, you don't have to follow me around all night."
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on
Post by: doodlemor on March 23, 2013, 11:36:39 PM
I think that all of the PP have offered some very good suggestions for OP's daughter to deal with AG in this sad situation.  It sounds like AG is rather socially immature for her age, but that is not unusual.

I agree with the PP who stated that AG may have a crush on OP's daughter.  If so, that makes the situation a little more complicated.

The only thing I have to add concerns the issue of the homework copying and the lazy group effort by AG.  Perhaps if DD gets firm to the point of crankiness about that, maybe AG will get offended and not care so much for DD and not want to hang with her any more. 

Maybe DD can think of some polite but firm ways to make herself unlikable to this person.

Title: Re: Prom Cling-on
Post by: kudeebee on March 23, 2013, 11:40:28 PM
Weighing in here as a high school teacher more than a mom.  Some kids just do not get it, do not take or understand subtle hints or actions from others, or just don't care and want what they want.  With this type of kid, you have got to be blunt.

DD is going to have to be blunt with AG if she wants to get her point across.  AG has shown in the past in many ways that she doesn't get subtle hints for whatever reason--she doesn't understand them or she chooses not to.

Your DD missed her chance in the first conversation OP posted about.  DD should have answered "AG, I will not be hanging around with you at prom.  I have made plans with a group already.  You will need to make your own plans."

I would suggest saying the above or something similar when AG mentions it again, because she will.  This reply is not rude, but to the point.  DD needs to keep repeating it over and over.  If AG says "well, I will just meet you at the prom.", DD again needs to be blunt--"AG, I am sure I will see you there, but I will be busy with my group.  You need to make plans with others."

I would also suggest that if she has problems with AG at prom, she may have to be even more blunt "AG, leave me alone.  Don't follow me around anymore."

She should not worry about hurting AG's feelings if she says the above (or similar phrases).  She has done everything she can and then it is AG who is intruding on her and her friends and affecting DD's enjoyment of the event.  DD should not have to be looking over her shoulder all the time wondering when/where AG will show up.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on
Post by: snowdragon on March 23, 2013, 11:51:29 PM
At this point, I think DD needs to stop worrying about AG's feelings and tell her "AG you and I are not friends. Please leave me alone, do not try and insinuate yourself into my plans and group again." and then give her the cut direct. Just because you live near someone that gives you no license to interfere with their enjoyment of social events. 
  AG needs guidance; perhaps it's time for the adults to get involved.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on
Post by: TootsNYC on March 24, 2013, 12:50:14 AM
Next time Ag approachers your dd about the  prom, your dd needs to state firmly, "AG, I am sorry, but I already have previous plans with some other friends as far as dinner and getting to the prom, but I am sure I will see you there".   If AG persists and asks to be included, "I'm sorry AG.  Everything has already been paid for and decided.  Again, I am sure I will see you at the prom sometime during the evening".

Agh, no! That's exactly what happened at Homecoming, and DD was very unhappy!

I vote for "I won't have much time to spend with you" or something.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on
Post by: peaches on March 24, 2013, 02:10:24 AM
Next time Ag approachers your dd about the  prom, your dd needs to state firmly, "AG, I am sorry, but I already have previous plans with some other friends as far as dinner and getting to the prom, but I am sure I will see you there".   If AG persists and asks to be included, "I'm sorry AG.  Everything has already been paid for and decided.  Again, I am sure I will see you at the prom sometime during the evening".

Agh, no! That's exactly what happened at Homecoming, and DD was very unhappy!

I vote for "I won't have much time to spend with you" or something.

I like this, although I'd leave out the word "much".

I also agree with Kudabee's approach, because it puts the emphasis on OP's daughter having plans already, and being with a group, while AG will be with her own group. Using the word "group" is better than "friends"; you don't want to imply that AG is unworthy of friendship.They just will be in different groups that night.

I do hope a conversation can take place soon, so that any hurt feelings have some time to heal before the big event, AG can put together Plan B, and hopefully, everyone will have a great time.

A difficult situation for both girls. I'm so glad I'm not in high school anymore.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on
Post by: GSNW on March 24, 2013, 04:46:40 AM
I agree 100% with Kudabee's advice.  I do feel for AG, as it seems everyone does, bu it IS ride for AG to intrude and it's not rude for DD and her friends to resent the issue it has caused.  AG will have to learn at some point that she cannot force her company on others. 

If AG is a clingster at prom, DD can also bean dip in a way that makes it clear sh does not wish to socialize.  "Wow AG, those shoes are to die for.  I'm going to talk to Mary now.  See you in social studies, goodbye." 

My roommate my freshman year of college was freaky clingy.  Making clear I didn't want her to join me on my way out the door was the only way to stop her from following me everywhere.  Even to the showers.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on
Post by: Steve on March 24, 2013, 06:27:05 AM
This is a difficult issue for teenagers to deal with. Isn't it possible to discuss it with AG's mother beforehand? I agree that kids should handle their own issues as much as possible, but the possiblities for AG's feelings to be hurt are abundant. It might help if her mother was aware so that AG can also salvage as much of her prom experience as possible.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on
Post by: TootsNYC on March 24, 2013, 08:31:42 AM
I just want to re-emphasize that the OP's DD should start creating distance between them now, start sending the message "you aren't really my friend" at school, in the cafeteria, by objecting strongly to the copying of schoolwork, etc.

Title: Re: Prom Cling-on
Post by: SPuck on March 24, 2013, 08:56:28 AM
Isn't it possible to discuss it with AG's mother beforehand?

I think the OP should only consider doing that after DD gives AG a solid "leave me alone" and see what happens. At this point it is still just between the two of them, and only annoying at the moment.

I'm curious about the homework copying aspect though. Was it just AG sitting near DD and trying to copy or her actively asking?
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on
Post by: wonderfullyanonymous on March 24, 2013, 09:11:03 AM
As an outsider kid, with not many friends, while I would never have been bold enough to do what AG is doing, I think the best thing for DD to say would be this...

"I'm really sorry AG, but I won't be available to be with you at the prom. I've already made plans with my friends. You will have to spend time with your friends on that night."

Will it hurt her feelings? Probably, but that will have to be a consequence of AG's own actions. Also, make sure your daughter knows that she should let a chaperone know if AG is still being stalkerish towards her at the prom.

If said chaperone says something along the lines of "it won't hurt you to let her hang on you for the night" have her have some responses ready to make chaperone know she's serious about being relieved of AG's presence.  Something along the lines of "If I said "that boy" was giving me the creeps, would your reply be the same? I need you to talk to AG and direct her to leave me alone."
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on
Post by: doodlemor on March 24, 2013, 07:38:45 PM
...... Also, make sure your daughter knows that she should let a chaperone know if AG is still being stalkerish towards her at the prom.

If said chaperone says something along the lines of "it won't hurt you to let her hang on you for the night" have her have some responses ready to make chaperone know she's serious about being relieved of AG's presence.  Something along the lines of "If I said "that boy" was giving me the creeps, would your reply be the same? I need you to talk to AG and direct her to leave me alone."

The more I think about this, the more it seems to me that AG may have a crush on DD.  Her behavior at the homecoming dance certainly sounds like a "teenager in love."   [Now that old song is going through my head.]......  Would you be comfortable contacting the chaperons surreptitiously yourself, OP,  if the situation before the prom doesn't change?

I also thoroughly agree with Toots.

I just want to re-emphasize that the OP's DD should start creating distance between them now, start sending the message "you aren't really my friend" at school, in the cafeteria, by objecting strongly to the copying of schoolwork, etc.



I think that DD should do everything she can to be stand offish and make herself unappealing to this girl.  Maybe AG will turn her attentions to someone who appreciates her.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on
Post by: gramma dishes on March 24, 2013, 07:57:53 PM
I think we need to be careful not to jump to unwarranted conclusions here.  Yes, it is certainly possible that AG does have a crush on the OP's daughter, but there are other more likely (I think) explanations.

AG clearly has trouble making friends.  DD has continuously been "nice" to AG, not because she necessarily really LIKES AG, but because DD is just simply a nice, sweet girl who doesn't want to hurt anyone's feelings.  AG may believe that because DD is nice to her that means she likes and accepts her and she sees DD as the only person she feels 'safe' around -- who won't just outright and openly reject her. 

I think we can all see why AG likes DD so much and so desperately wants to be her friend, but that doesn't mean AG sees DD romantically.

Of course I may be misinterpreting what everyone else means by the word "crush" too.   :-\
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on
Post by: peaches on March 24, 2013, 08:50:50 PM
I agree, gramma dishes.

To me, AG is a young person who hasn't learned appropriate boundaries. It would be good if someone (school counselor, for example) could explain to her that by rushing over boundaries, she is pushing people away, rather than drawing people to her. She'll have better success in making friends if she gives people appropriate space, and doesn't jump to conclusions about whether they want to be close to her.

Slow and steady is a better way to become friends. Make an approach (or invitation or conversation) and after that, wait for the other person to make the next move, if they want to. If they don't, then move on. There are plenty of fish in the ocean.

The OP's daughter has every right to defend her boundaries. It's awkward that this is coming to a head during prom season. But DD hopefully can politely deflect the unwanted attention.


 
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on
Post by: LifeOnPluto on March 24, 2013, 09:20:24 PM
I agree with gramma dishes and peaches. I don't get any "crush" vibes from this situation. Instead, it sounds like AG is socially inept, and can't (or won't) pick up on social cues.

I do feel for this girl. Often, social ineptness is a vicious cycle. A great way to learn social skills is to have a group of friends who you can interact with. But because the Socially Awkward Person is, well... socially awkward, no one wants to be their friend. So the social ineptness gets perpetuated and the person never learns.

Telling AG to "hang out with her own group" at the prom isn't really the answer (IMO) because it seems AG doesn't have a group of her own. Which is why I stand by my point that - although the OP's DD is by no means obliged to put up with AG clinging to her all night - her group would be doing a kindness by letting AG dance with them, maybe even making small talk with her, etc.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on
Post by: Possum on March 24, 2013, 11:32:03 PM
"I'm so sorry, AG, but we've already got our prom group established, and our plans are set.  But it sounds like you and AG1 and AG2 have a great start on a group, you guys should start making plans--you can do prom your own way that way!"

It's hard to be in either position.  There's kindness and cuts no matter what they do, but DD's feelings and experience are important, too.  It'll be a good experience in politely and subtly--but firmly--standing her ground, and for AG, it'll be an experience in making her own way, socially.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on
Post by: Nikko-chan on March 24, 2013, 11:42:41 PM
"I'm so sorry, AG, but we've already got our prom group established, and our plans are set.  But it sounds like you and AG1 and AG2 have a great start on a group, you guys should start making plans--you can do prom your own way that way!"

It's hard to be in either position.  There's kindness and cuts no matter what they do, but DD's feelings and experience are important, too.  It'll be a good experience in politely and subtly--but firmly--standing her ground, and for AG, it'll be an experience in making her own way, socially.

I believe AG1 and AG2 are actually part of Joraemi's DD's group, and AG actually has no one to go with.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on
Post by: Possum on March 24, 2013, 11:56:01 PM
"I'm so sorry, AG, but we've already got our prom group established, and our plans are set.  But it sounds like you and AG1 and AG2 have a great start on a group, you guys should start making plans--you can do prom your own way that way!"

It's hard to be in either position.  There's kindness and cuts no matter what they do, but DD's feelings and experience are important, too.  It'll be a good experience in politely and subtly--but firmly--standing her ground, and for AG, it'll be an experience in making her own way, socially.

I believe AG1 and AG2 are actually part of Joraemi's DD's group, and AG actually has no one to go with.
Oops, I missed that.

If AG1 and AG2 *want* this girl to come, DD may not have much say.  If not, then the comment about "already established, plans are set" could still be useful.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on
Post by: SingActDance on March 25, 2013, 12:22:58 AM
I think your DD and her friends need to be prepared to run a little interference at the prom. If AG tries to monopolize her time or follow her around, have a friend ready to swoop in and steal her away for a dance/food/super-important private conversation. The whole group should be aware that post-prom plans should not be discussed in front of AG. And if she tries to leave with them, someone should politely say, "Sorry, we've got something set up and there's no room in the limo. See you at school Monday!"

If your DD feels the need to clarify things before the prom, she should feel free, but know that there is almost no way to say "I don't want to hang out with you" that will not hurt this girl's feelings. Most of us have had to endure a party with someone we found tedious or annoying. (I have a few acquaintances in my social circle that I can only take in very small doses.) We skirt around them, beandip, deal with them for a few minutes, and find a reason to excuse ourselves. I guess I don't see this as much different.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on
Post by: SPuck on March 25, 2013, 07:09:33 AM
If your DD feels the need to clarify things before the prom, she should feel free, but know that there is almost no way to say "I don't want to hang out with you" that will not hurt this girl's feelings. Most of us have had to endure a party with someone we found tedious or annoying. (I have a few acquaintances in my social circle that I can only take in very small doses.) We skirt around them, beandip, deal with them for a few minutes, and find a reason to excuse ourselves. I guess I don't see this as much different.

That only works with people who aren't obsessive or monopolize another individuals time. We have a family friend who is a loud mouth who can't shut up about his religion and politics. I wouldn't think of asking my own family to stop inviting him because he never corners anyone. That would change if he did.

If AG were a guy posters would most likely be telling the OP to go to the school administration. I think, depending on how the home work copying situation worked, she should have.

Still there is a little room left just to keep this situation between AG and DD. That means no playing games (asking DD's friends to reeks of that) and no weasel words. DD needs to be blunt with AG. Ag she might be hurt, but that is because of her own actions and lack of social graces.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on
Post by: MrsVandy on March 25, 2013, 10:13:25 AM
I think in this situation your DD may need to be the bad guy.

 I had a similar situation in school where one girl clinged to me and tried to force herself in to my friend group. My firends didn't really didn't like her and while I had started out liking her, I eventually got annoyed.

 I finally got blunt and I told her "Clingy, I'm not sure if your aware of how much you monopolize my time. Every time were at a dance or event I feel like you expect me to entertain you. I really need some space right now I want to do my own thing."  Yes Clingy was sad, but I wasn't rude and I wasn't mean. I stuck to the facts. My friends just told her when asked that they had already made plans with me, and sorry they couldn't accommodate her. She eventually found her own friends. I wish I had of said something much sooner then I did, because in the end everyone was much happier for it.

I honestly think this girl doesn't realize that your DD isn't having fun. Your DD needs to tell AG next time prom comes up something how she doesn't want this to be like homecoming. Yes AG's feeling will be hurt, but sometimes boundary tramplers feelings will get hurt when they are called on it.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on
Post by: Firecat on March 25, 2013, 12:51:01 PM
"I'm so sorry, AG, but we've already got our prom group established, and our plans are set.  But it sounds like you and AG1 and AG2 have a great start on a group, you guys should start making plans--you can do prom your own way that way!"

It's hard to be in either position.  There's kindness and cuts no matter what they do, but DD's feelings and experience are important, too.  It'll be a good experience in politely and subtly--but firmly--standing her ground, and for AG, it'll be an experience in making her own way, socially.

I believe AG1 and AG2 are actually part of Joraemi's DD's group, and AG actually has no one to go with.

Actually, I just rechecked the OP, and it says that AG1 and AG2 aren't part of the DD's prom plans group, either. So it seems reasonable for the DD to suggest that AG form her own group with the other two.

I really feel for the OP's DD...actually, I feel for both DD and AG. Having been one of the "rejects" in high school (although I was, fortunately for me, one of those kids who functioned pretty well on my own), I know it hurts to be told that someone you consider a friend doesn't want to be friends with you, or at least not close friends.

And yet, on the other hand, I've been on the DD's side of this situation a few times as an adult. And it's not easy to tell someone to back off a bit, either, when there's nothing really "wrong" with them as a person except that they're bit clingier than I'm comfortable with, or even just someone I don't like as much as they seem to like me. I know there's nothing wrong with enforcing my boundaries and making decisions about who is my friend and who is an acquaintance, but it still feels a bit mean to have to tell someone that I really don't want to pursue a friendship further.

So I think this is an excellent time for the DD to learn that it's ok to have boundaries and to make those decisions, and how to do so politely, effectively, and as kindly as possible. And in this case, it may not be as possible to be as kind as the DD would like to be, because I don't think AG is going to "get it" unless DD is quite blunt and firm. In the end, I don't know if it matters whether AG has a crush on DD, or whether she is just socially clueless and trying, ineffectively, to be friends, because I think the DD's actions need to be essentially the same, regardless of what is "driving" AG's behavior.

OP, I think your DD needs to tell this girl (preferably privately, and very soon), "AG, you seem to have gotten the impression that you'll be going to prom with the group I've decided to join. I need to tell you that it won't be possible. We've already made plans, and it's not possible to include anyone else. Why don't you see if AG1 and AG2 have plans yet?" And then if AG tries to cling to DD at the prom, DD should take her aside and tell her, "AG, I am spending time with X, Y, and Z tonight. You need to go spend time with other people now." Or something similar.

DD should be prepared that she may need to get more blunt than that, possibly escalating on up to "AG, I do not want to spend time with you. Leave me alone." Hopefully it won't have to go that far.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on
Post by: WillyNilly on March 25, 2013, 12:54:47 PM
"I'm so sorry, AG, but we've already got our prom group established, and our plans are set.  But it sounds like you and AG1 and AG2 have a great start on a group, you guys should start making plans--you can do prom your own way that way!"

It's hard to be in either position.  There's kindness and cuts no matter what they do, but DD's feelings and experience are important, too.  It'll be a good experience in politely and subtly--but firmly--standing her ground, and for AG, it'll be an experience in making her own way, socially.

I believe AG1 and AG2 are actually part of Joraemi's DD's group, and AG actually has no one to go with.

Actually, I just rechecked the OP, and it says that AG1 and AG2 aren't part of the DD's prom plans group, either. So it seems reasonable for the DD to suggest that AG form her own group with the other two...

Post #33, from the OP:
...Anyway - I got some additional info from DD today that is NOT going to make it any easier.  When I was sharing your advice with her and I asked again who AG's other friends were that she planned to hang out with and DD said, "MOM - this is exactly the problem I've been trying to explain to you.  They aren't her friends.  They're part of our group! She's just sticking herself in with us and assuming she can hang out with us.  No one wants to do this!". Ultimately though, DD is the one that AG clings to.  :-\

I think in DD's mind part of the problem is that if AG doesn't hang out with them, DD doesn't know who (if anyone) AG will have to hang out with, and as a nice girl/people pleaser, DD is having a hard time with this. She really does not enjoy this girl's company, but feels sorry for her all at the same time...
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on
Post by: Firecat on March 25, 2013, 01:03:45 PM
"I'm so sorry, AG, but we've already got our prom group established, and our plans are set.  But it sounds like you and AG1 and AG2 have a great start on a group, you guys should start making plans--you can do prom your own way that way!"

It's hard to be in either position.  There's kindness and cuts no matter what they do, but DD's feelings and experience are important, too.  It'll be a good experience in politely and subtly--but firmly--standing her ground, and for AG, it'll be an experience in making her own way, socially.

I believe AG1 and AG2 are actually part of Joraemi's DD's group, and AG actually has no one to go with.

Actually, I just rechecked the OP, and it says that AG1 and AG2 aren't part of the DD's prom plans group, either. So it seems reasonable for the DD to suggest that AG form her own group with the other two...

Post #33, from the OP:
...Anyway - I got some additional info from DD today that is NOT going to make it any easier.  When I was sharing your advice with her and I asked again who AG's other friends were that she planned to hang out with and DD said, "MOM - this is exactly the problem I've been trying to explain to you.  They aren't her friends.  They're part of our group! She's just sticking herself in with us and assuming she can hang out with us.  No one wants to do this!". Ultimately though, DD is the one that AG clings to.  :-\

I think in DD's mind part of the problem is that if AG doesn't hang out with them, DD doesn't know who (if anyone) AG will have to hang out with, and as a nice girl/people pleaser, DD is having a hard time with this. She really does not enjoy this girl's company, but feels sorry for her all at the same time...

Ah, missed that update, thank you!

That does make it more difficult...it would feel a bit like "taking" AG's only "friends" away and telling AG she's not welcome. Even if that's not really the case (I assume that AG1 and AG2 are capable of making their own decisions on who's a friend and who is not), it would still feel like that.

I think it would be a kindness for AG1 and AG2 to maybe spend some time with AG at the prom - but only if they're willing to do so. But I still think DD needs to explain to AG that she is not invited to share the group's plans, and be prepared to tell AG to back off (pretty much in so many words) if AG gets clingy.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on
Post by: Gail on March 25, 2013, 01:24:48 PM
I'm sorry to say this, but be prepared for AG's mom to enter the scene. I'm talking about my own experience, of course, and probably AG case is not that bad. You know best if AG's mom would be able to help with the problem or not.

In my case, Clingy's parents were planning to visit my parents to ask them "why I didn't want to be her friend". It took a screaming argument in public for her to tell her parents not to bother. We were 24 years old.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on
Post by: RebeccainGA on March 25, 2013, 01:49:10 PM
I agree that this is a tough situation - I was also very socially awkward in school, and was lucky to have a crowd of other 'misfits' that got along well with me. We did have an AG, though - she decided she was the date of the one otherwise unaccompanied male in the group (there were three unaccompanied girls in the group too, but she insisted she was his date, despite having barely spoken to him all year, and he was just enough of a pushover to allow it). She made things very awkward the entire time - our prom was more of a team sport than some of the ones people are describing, and we spent the whole night together, just incidentally being in the same room as the rest of our class.

I am parking my POD on the idea that your DD may need to go to administration, or at least feel comfortable telling the chaperones at the event that they need to handle the situation. No one has the right to make your child feel that uncomfortable - it's stalking, even if there's no romantic portion to it. Seen Single White Female??? Same idea, if not as extreme. Talk to AG's parents if you can, but tell DD that it's OK to tell the chaperones she is feeling like she's being stalked.

Good luck to you all - these things get so fraught with emotion when you're in your teens - and the stakes always seem higher when it's the "once in a lifetime" event on top of that.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on
Post by: MrTango on March 25, 2013, 01:57:08 PM
I'm sorry to say this, but be prepared for AG's mom to enter the scene. I'm talking about my own experience, of course, and probably AG case is not that bad. You know best if AG's mom would be able to help with the problem or not.

In my case, Clingy's parents were planning to visit my parents to ask them "why I didn't want to be her friend". It took a screaming argument in public for her to tell her parents not to bother. We were 24 years old.

Did Clingy's parents actually think that they could get your parents to force you to be their child's friend?  If they feel that parents should be exercising that sort of control over their children's social life, then it's little wonder the child is socially awkward.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on
Post by: Kari on March 25, 2013, 02:09:14 PM
I don't think that the school administration needs to get involved, unless the clingy girl gets all "Single White Female" on the OP's daughter.  It's an unpleasant task, but the daughter needs to break it to the clingy girl firmly but gently that she's not part of the group. I don't think Clingy is a bad person, based on what's happened so far; just socially clueless.

I saw a similar situation in college: One girl decided she was BFFs with another girl, who was not of the same opinion. It wasn't until the clingy one showed her "bestie" a collage dedicated to their friendship in her locker that the "BFF" completely shut her out of her life. The clingy girl was devastated, but eventually learned to make new friends and read signals better. She was homeschooled all her life prior to college, and had a very clingy mother, so perhaps she wasn't properly socialized with others.

Whatever the case of the OP's Clingy, that girl's feelings are undoubtedly going to get hurt unless the DD goes along with the "best friends for life" fantasy she created. So, while there's no way to avoid bad feelings, the daughter can let Clingy know that she's not included in the group with grace and tact. The OP's DD sounds like a good character, so unfortunately guilty feelings are most likely inevitable. It's going to be unpleasant, but it really needs to be done, and eventually everyone will move on.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on
Post by: TootsNYC on March 25, 2013, 02:29:19 PM
I just wanted to say, "having a crush on someone" isn't necessarily sexual or even romantic. There is such a thing as a "friends crush," in my opinion.

So AG could have a crush on the OP's daughter and still be quite heterosexual.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on
Post by: Eden on March 25, 2013, 02:39:44 PM
I think going to the administration is over the top and misses a chance for the OP's daughter to learn how to handle a tough situation herself. My advice is the same as it would be if this were a group of adults and an acquaintance was trying to insert herself into a group event to which she was not invited. "AG, I think maybe there was a misunderstanding. We have a group that already made plans and we won't be adding anymore to the headcount." And then at the dance if AG won't leave her alone. "AG, I'm going to excuse myself. " (walk away without waiting for a response) And if she STILL won't leave her along. "Hey there AG, I know you don't mean to, but you're monopolizing all of my time. I'm going to excuse myself to go chat with some friends. Can you please give me a little space for awhile?" It's unpleasant but it's the only way. That and asking her friends to rescue her, "Oh, hey, AG. Sorry for the interruption. I need to grab OP's Daughter. Please excuse us."
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on
Post by: CreteGirl on March 25, 2013, 02:48:35 PM
I just wanted to say, "having a crush on someone" isn't necessarily sexual or even romantic. There is such a thing as a "friends crush," in my opinion.

So AG could have a crush on the OP's daughter and still be quite heterosexual.

I agree.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on
Post by: BeagleMommy on March 25, 2013, 03:29:09 PM
AG's feelings are going to get hurt no matter how gently she is told.  Unfortunately, that happens sometimes.  OP, I think your DD should employ the "lather, rinse, repeat" tactic.  When she sees AG say "I'm sorry, but I've made plans with another group for prom and we can't accommodate another person".  If your DD sees AG at the prom she can be polite, but stand offish.  If AG tries to cling and follow DD around, alert one of the chaperones.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on
Post by: Jaelle on March 25, 2013, 05:08:07 PM
I just finished reading the thread and had to sit and think for a while. It brings back a lot of memories that really are not good.

I was very shy in high school. I got better in college, but not a lot. I've done things somewhat like AG seems to have in mind.  :-[  I'm embarrassed about it now, but at the time, I was thinking I was doing what all the adults described when they told me to "Talk to people! Show an interest! They just think you like to be alone!"

So I tagged along with groups that probably didn't really want me, showed up at parties I hadn't been explicitly invited to and probably made a right nuisance of myself. And I was so proud that I was being brave!

OP, I think your DD needs to be blunt, but gentle. AG might be thinking the same thing I was all those years ago. And personally, I wouldn't want to go to a prom where the group I'd planned to hang with really didn't want me to do so (and I didn't have another group that would want me, either). I'd much rather stay home with a good book.

Understand that I'm not blaming your DD. (I'm a much different person now. Somewhere along the line, I even became downright outgoing! :D)  She should be able to enjoy herself. But AG just isn't getting it and it would, in a way, be a kindness for DD to be explicit.

(Now I'm wondering what advice I'd give others in my high school shoes. Obviously, the advice I was given was badly misinterpreted or just plain wrong. I might have to start a thread about this ...)
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on
Post by: rain on March 25, 2013, 07:48:12 PM
OP - any updates?
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on
Post by: Dr. F. on March 25, 2013, 07:54:31 PM
I just finished reading the thread and had to sit and think for a while. It brings back a lot of memories that really are not good.

I was very shy in high school. I got better in college, but not a lot. I've done things somewhat like AG seems to have in mind.  :-[  I'm embarrassed about it now, but at the time, I was thinking I was doing what all the adults described when they told me to "Talk to people! Show an interest! They just think you like to be alone!"

So I tagged along with groups that probably didn't really want me, showed up at parties I hadn't been explicitly invited to and probably made a right nuisance of myself. And I was so proud that I was being brave!

OP, I think your DD needs to be blunt, but gentle. AG might be thinking the same thing I was all those years ago. And personally, I wouldn't want to go to a prom where the group I'd planned to hang with really didn't want me to do so (and I didn't have another group that would want me, either). I'd much rather stay home with a good book.

Understand that I'm not blaming your DD. (I'm a much different person now. Somewhere along the line, I even became downright outgoing! :D)  She should be able to enjoy herself. But AG just isn't getting it and it would, in a way, be a kindness for DD to be explicit.

(Now I'm wondering what advice I'd give others in my high school shoes. Obviously, the advice I was given was badly misinterpreted or just plain wrong. I might have to start a thread about this ...)

Please do start said thread. I haven't commented, because of my discomfort of thinking about the times I may have been AG-ish. I don't think I was ever quite that bad, and I'm *certainly* not that person now, but....

I feel for the OP's dd and for AG, and I'm ending up conflicted, probably because of my past. I don't know how we can avoid such situations.

ETA: I've been on the dd's side of the situation since high school, so I have an interest on both sides of the equation, so to speak.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on
Post by: nuit93 on March 25, 2013, 07:59:49 PM
I just finished reading the thread and had to sit and think for a while. It brings back a lot of memories that really are not good.

I was very shy in high school. I got better in college, but not a lot. I've done things somewhat like AG seems to have in mind.  :-[  I'm embarrassed about it now, but at the time, I was thinking I was doing what all the adults described when they told me to "Talk to people! Show an interest! They just think you like to be alone!"

So I tagged along with groups that probably didn't really want me, showed up at parties I hadn't been explicitly invited to and probably made a right nuisance of myself. And I was so proud that I was being brave!

OP, I think your DD needs to be blunt, but gentle. AG might be thinking the same thing I was all those years ago. And personally, I wouldn't want to go to a prom where the group I'd planned to hang with really didn't want me to do so (and I didn't have another group that would want me, either). I'd much rather stay home with a good book.

Understand that I'm not blaming your DD. (I'm a much different person now. Somewhere along the line, I even became downright outgoing! :D)  She should be able to enjoy herself. But AG just isn't getting it and it would, in a way, be a kindness for DD to be explicit.

(Now I'm wondering what advice I'd give others in my high school shoes. Obviously, the advice I was given was badly misinterpreted or just plain wrong. I might have to start a thread about this ...)

I was that person in high school too, embarrassed to say.  Will be watching for that thread.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on
Post by: LifeOnPluto on March 25, 2013, 08:46:57 PM
"I'm so sorry, AG, but we've already got our prom group established, and our plans are set.  But it sounds like you and AG1 and AG2 have a great start on a group, you guys should start making plans--you can do prom your own way that way!"

It's hard to be in either position.  There's kindness and cuts no matter what they do, but DD's feelings and experience are important, too.  It'll be a good experience in politely and subtly--but firmly--standing her ground, and for AG, it'll be an experience in making her own way, socially.

I believe AG1 and AG2 are actually part of Joraemi's DD's group, and AG actually has no one to go with.
Oops, I missed that.

If AG1 and AG2 *want* this girl to come, DD may not have much say.  If not, then the comment about "already established, plans are set" could still be useful.

I recall from the OP's update that the other members of the group don't really want AG joining them either.

I just finished reading the thread and had to sit and think for a while. It brings back a lot of memories that really are not good.

I was very shy in high school. I got better in college, but not a lot. I've done things somewhat like AG seems to have in mind.  :-[  I'm embarrassed about it now, but at the time, I was thinking I was doing what all the adults described when they told me to "Talk to people! Show an interest! They just think you like to be alone!"

So I tagged along with groups that probably didn't really want me, showed up at parties I hadn't been explicitly invited to and probably made a right nuisance of myself. And I was so proud that I was being brave!

OP, I think your DD needs to be blunt, but gentle. AG might be thinking the same thing I was all those years ago. And personally, I wouldn't want to go to a prom where the group I'd planned to hang with really didn't want me to do so (and I didn't have another group that would want me, either). I'd much rather stay home with a good book.

Understand that I'm not blaming your DD. (I'm a much different person now. Somewhere along the line, I even became downright outgoing! :D)  She should be able to enjoy herself. But AG just isn't getting it and it would, in a way, be a kindness for DD to be explicit.

(Now I'm wondering what advice I'd give others in my high school shoes. Obviously, the advice I was given was badly misinterpreted or just plain wrong. I might have to start a thread about this ...)

Great post! And yes, please start that thread. I can see how people who are shy / socially awkward might get confused. Often, when a person asks "How can I make friends?" the advice given is along the lines of "Be sociable and out-going. Join in. If you hear a nice group of people talking about going to see a movie, you should invite yourself along too!"

I also bolded what I think is an important sentence. It's horrible attending an event where no one wants to interact with you. If AG truly has no friends - or at least no one whose willing to talk with her at the prom - I honestly think she'd have a better time staying home.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on
Post by: CreteGirl on March 26, 2013, 01:19:28 PM
Yep, I've done some AG things too.  And as an adult!  This thread has made me do some thinking about times I may not have gotten the hint. 
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on
Post by: Lynn2000 on March 26, 2013, 04:08:14 PM
I think going to the administration is over the top and misses a chance for the OP's daughter to learn how to handle a tough situation herself. My advice is the same as it would be if this were a group of adults and an acquaintance was trying to insert herself into a group event to which she was not invited. "AG, I think maybe there was a misunderstanding. We have a group that already made plans and we won't be adding anymore to the headcount." And then at the dance if AG won't leave her alone. "AG, I'm going to excuse myself. " (walk away without waiting for a response) And if she STILL won't leave her along. "Hey there AG, I know you don't mean to, but you're monopolizing all of my time. I'm going to excuse myself to go chat with some friends. Can you please give me a little space for awhile?" It's unpleasant but it's the only way. That and asking her friends to rescue her, "Oh, hey, AG. Sorry for the interruption. I need to grab OP's Daughter. Please excuse us."

I think this summarizes my thoughts best. If AG seems to think she's included in official pre/post-prom plans, that needs to be corrected right away, before she tries to tag along to a private event. While at the actual prom, I don't think DD can expect to never interact with AG, as it's a "public" venue, but she can say things like, "Well, it was nice talking to you. I'm going over here now. Hope you have fun," followed by, "Actually I wanted to talk to Mary and Bob by myself. I'll see you around," followed by, "AG, I feel like you've been following me around a lot tonight. Could you please leave me alone for a while?"

And I think she should talk to the friends in her group about this, and make sure they're aware that they shouldn't invite AG to any of the festivities on their own. I mean, if they truly want to, that's a different issue; but assuming they don't, they should strategize about how not to get guilted or otherwise manipulated into inviting her. Like, everyone in the group knows that AG isn't invited, so if AG claims one of the others said it was okay, they will all know she's wrong. Probably more than one of the girls in DD's group feels sorry for AG; but if any of them cave, all of them, especially DD, will suffer for it. And maybe they would all find it both educational and somewhat entertaining to roleplay amongst themselves about politely deflecting people.

I was in sort of the "middle tier" in high school--not popular, but not a misfit either. Sometimes people hung around me and my friends, and seemed to feel like we were better friends than we actually were, simply because we weren't mean to them. Mostly it was okay with me because I personally didn't do much social stuff, so they didn't have an opportunity to cling to me. But I would always see them hanging around the edge of our group, or sitting at the end of the lunch table awkwardly. I don't recall people actually ignoring them if they spoke, but people definitely didn't try to draw them into the conversation, either; and often this made the point that they weren't actually friends with us. It would have been really uncomfortable if they had been more "outgoing" like AG is, and actively tried to insert themselves into things.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on
Post by: Jaelle on March 26, 2013, 07:30:59 PM
For those who asked: http://www.etiquettehell.com/smf/index.php?board=11.0 (http://www.etiquettehell.com/smf/index.php?board=11.0)

OP, did your DD come to a decision?
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on
Post by: Bijou on March 26, 2013, 09:38:52 PM
My heart is breaking for both of the girls. 
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on
Post by: joraemi on March 27, 2013, 07:56:53 AM
***UPDATE***

Op here.

I've been sharing your feedback and comments with DD.  Just saying the words to AG seems to make DD sweat - she really doesn't want to hurt this girl's feelings. Last night we were discussing it again and I verified that as a unit, her group does not want AG to come with them.  I asked why then, is it falling to DD to be the one to tell her?  I pointed out that we are neighbors with AG, and that we need to keep neighborly relationships in mind.

SO - for the moment, she has decided that when the opportuniy arises (as it should because everyone is talking about prom now), she is going to feign ignorance:


AG: I'm getting so excited about prom!

DD: Me too!  What group are you going with?

AG:....I thought I was going with you?

DD: Oh my gosh, AG. I'm so sorry. We've had our group set for quite awhile and have planned activities with our number in mind, we can't really change that now. When you said the other day that you were haning out with me and AG1 and AG2 I thought you were joking! I'm so sorry or I would have said something right then.

If the opportunity doesn't present itself soon, DD is just going to strike up a convo beginning with the "So... what group are you going to prom with?" line.

What do you guys think?


*side note* I asked who AG spends her time with, surely she can't be completely devoid of friends - DD said that AG's normal group that she associates with are her (AG's) younger sister's friends. 
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE**
Post by: joraemi on March 27, 2013, 08:08:50 AM
Someone upthread asked about the homework situation...

What was happening was AG woudl text DD and say - I don't understand how to do #9 in math - can you send me a pic of your worksheet?  So DD would snap a pic of her worksheet and send it - because it would never occur to DD to cheat!  After about 3-4 times of this DD came to me and said, "Mom - I think I have an issue."  She explained to me what was going on and I said the next time she asks, just ask her what number she is having trouble with and you will explain it to her.  SO she did and AG's response was, "1, 4, 13, 16, 22, etc, etc".  You get the picture.  So DD actually spent the time explaining them all to her (knowing that AG really just wanted to copy them).  The requests started coming less and less frequently and I think she stopped altogether.

Then a couple of weeks ago they were sitting next to each other in the computer lab for Spanish class.  Ag kept saying, "What did you get for #3? How about #8?" etc.  Finally after about 3 of those DD looked her dead in the eye and said, "I don't remember. *I* had to  look it up in my notes.".  I think AG got the clue at that point as DD had most likely just done the answer in question, kwim?

DD was unfortunately paired with this girl for the entire first semester in Spanish for group work.  Ag did next to nothing and usually it was DD who took up the slack so their grades wouldn't suffer. Not entirely a big deal as DD is really good in that class.  It's the point.

I cna't remember if I answered the question about th elite - they aren't concerned about her horning in on the limo - they just aren't going to tell her where they are getting picked up, etc.  BUT - at Homecoming she didn't travel to the dance with them either but was waiting at the doors for DD to arrive so that she could accompany them in to the dance.

Afterprom is a HUGE event organized and managed by the school - so AG will most likely be there and DD will have to figure out how she is going to manage that.  I did remind DD about your suggestions to go to the chaperones at the dance if AG needs some redirection to find someone else to spend time with.  Fortunately, my DH is going to be one of the chaperones at afterprom (He is on the entertainment committee - he is so excited he almost can't stand it!), so she will have her dad there for back up if necessary.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on
Post by: gen xer on March 27, 2013, 08:17:43 AM
I've been reading this and wavering back and forth with all these conflicting opinions crashing around in my mind....

OP's DD shouldn't have to put up with having a burr up her backside all evening trailing her around....although I am having trouble getting on board with the histrionic "stalker" and "girl crush" ideas.  Not every person who can't take a hint deserves to be labelled a stalker - annoying and clueless maybe....but it minimizes it when any and all instances of overbearing social ineptness gets lumped in with dangerous and criminal behaviour.

Back on track now....if the limo / dinner isn't an issue then why can't these girls show a little grace and kindness to AG and not completely snub her at the prom?  If she becomes a nuisance glomming on the whole evening then the DD has every right to politely yet firmly tell her to back off.  No argument here and I agree that it is a good idea for all involved to start learning these lessons in polite spines, tact and social maturity now.  That means AG is likely to get a hard lesson in social skills....but it is a lesson that she needs to learn - how to read social cues, to not insert oneself where one is not wanted etc.

And yet...as other posters have pointed out the prom is not the exclusive domain of DD and her group and there is the expectation there that even the outsiders are to be treated with respect and kindness.  I don't think it would kill anyone to be friendly and maybe spend a little time with someone while maintaining a healthy boundary.

It seems like they are going into this prom in "circle the wagons" mode and I get that it stems from a bad experience at the Homecoming....but anticipating the same behaviour - while a good reason to start practising the polite spine doesn't really warrant a pre-emptive - "she is NOT going to sit with us, speak to us, spoil our prom" strike.  Be nice to her at the prom - talk to her, hang out for a few minutes here and there....and be prepared to tell her to back off if it gets too much.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE**
Post by: Sharnita on March 27, 2013, 08:31:33 AM
I agree that she doesn't sound stalker-ish. In fact, it kind of sounds oppotunistic. She call for answers to homework or she hangs around at school dances, possibly the ones her normal social group don't/can't attend. However, even though she lives close by she apparently isn't making a big push to become close friends at other times. It sounds more like she mostly thinks of DD as reliably kind in school social events and us.eful academically. And no, if a guy was acting that way I would not see cause for alarm. Annoyance maybe but not alarm.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE**
Post by: *inviteseller on March 27, 2013, 08:45:13 AM
The AG is a sad case, but again, why should it be DD's and her friends problem to include her in their night, other than to say hi and maybe chat?  It is their night at the prom, they are, I'm sure, paying a lot of money to have the night they want and they should not have to play nice and include into their plans the AG if they are not friends with her.  The only person responsible for AG's fun at the prom is AG...she needs to make her own plans and find her own group to be with instead of insinuating herself where she is obviously not welcome.  To me, it is rude for the DD to ask her own group of friends to make room for someone they don't hang around with, not want to just because the AG has decided her and DD are besties, and it does a great disservice to AG to have DD to give up what she wants to make sure AG is included, thus giving AG the false sense that there is a friendship.  You can be nice to all your classmates, you can say hi and chat a minute, but you do not have to be friends with them and make sure that everyone is having fun at the expense of your own fun.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE**
Post by: Sharnita on March 27, 2013, 08:52:49 AM
Saying "hi" and chatting is the most anybody has suggested they do. OP has indicated there is not much concern about her trying to join pre-prom/limo festivities so that is a non issue. The after dance event is sponsored by the school and is for all attendees apparently so AG can't ask what their plans are - apparently everyone's plans are the same, including hers.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE**
Post by: joraemi on March 27, 2013, 09:02:33 AM
Dinner is *at* prom.  The limo ride is just to get there.

DD would not have issue with visiting with AG for a bit here and there.  However, AG completely monopolized DD at Homecoming.  Even when DD tried to slip away to spend time with someone else, AG literally *chased* her (as in - running!).

DD wants it to be clear that this girl is not part of their group - they won't tell her where/when they are getting the limo - but if she thinks she is part of the group, she won't make other arrangements, kwim? They absolutely do not want to continue to let her assume that she will be included in their plans/seating arrangements at dinner/group at afterprom, etc.

DD is hoping that the convo I mentioned above will be enough to get AG thinking that DD might actually be serious about not letting her tag along everywhere she goes at prom.  The group is by no means "circling the wagons" - for the members that have dates this is merely a blip on the radar - "Oh - no - AG isn't in our group" - it's the girls that are going without dates (AG1, AG2, DD, BFF) that are trying to prevent a rerun of Homecoming for my DD and themselves since they have been named by AG as the people she is spending time with.

It's kind of sad - last night DD said, "I wish I wasn't so nice.  Then these things wouldn't happen to me." (she IS that typical nice girl - nice to everyone, smart, pretty, etc, etc).  I, of course, said she should absolutely be nice!  But that nice doesn't equal doormat or being taken advantage of.  I told her you can be nice and still be firm with people.

In regards to the stalker/crush thing - I don't think it's an issue - I think AG is just completely socially clueless and a bit odd. Unfortunately, DD has already had issues with another student with stalker-ish behaviors, the police have been involved, etc, so we are pretty aware of stuff like that.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE**
Post by: GrammarNerd on March 27, 2013, 09:06:12 AM
This has been floating around in my mind, and I just wanted to throw this out there:

OP, could your DD write AG some sort of a note about this, since she feels so uncomfortable about bringing it up directly?

"AG, last week you mentioned something about Prom and how you were going to hang out with me. I didn't know how to respond at the time, but I feel I have to let you know:  I hope you have a great time at prom, but I will not be hanging out with you there.  I already have my own plans with my group of friends, and those plans are set and nobody else can be added.  I know at Homecoming, you met me at the door and sort of assumed that you were 'with' me, and you kind of stuck to my side all night and wouldn't let me out of your sight.  It got kind of uncomfortable for me (and it took some of the fun out of the evening).  I hope you find an awesome dress and have a good time with whoever you go with, but I just wanted to let you know that you shouldn't expect to hang around with me all night at Prom."

Yes, I realize the potential perils of writing this down.  But if done correctly (mailed to her house so she doesn't have to process it at school?), I think this might be a good way for your DD to get the point across but avoid a face to face confrontation. 
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE**
Post by: gen xer on March 27, 2013, 09:08:58 AM
They don't have to let AG steamroll their entire night - that would be allowing AG's rude and annoying behaviour to prevail at their expense.  They do, however, need to be nice.....and part of being nice is not treating AG as though they are seeing a cockroach approaching and they need to stomp on it quick before it crawls over someone's foot.  In other words....treat her as you would treat anyone else at the prom ( everyone is there to mingle aren't they? ) and deal with the problem if it arises - not going into defensive mode the instant she comes over.

OP's DD seems like although she does not particularly care for this girl she is at least concerned about being polite since she is asking for help dealing with this beforehand.  That is a smart thing to do.  It doesn't sound as though anyone wants to be deliberately cruel.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE**
Post by: Sharnita on March 27, 2013, 09:11:27 AM
On the flip side, if most kids were as nice as DD maybe AG would have a variety of people she felt comfortable with and she wouldn't need to attach herself to just a few.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on
Post by: gramma dishes on March 27, 2013, 09:11:36 AM
***UPDATE***

...    Last night we were discussing it again and I verified that as a unit, her group does not want AG to come with them.  I asked why then, is it falling to DD to be the one to tell her?  I pointed out that we are neighbors with AG, and that we need to keep neighborly relationships in mind.  ...


I was wondering this too.  Since none of the girls in DD's group want to spend time with this girl, why is DD the one being left to handle it all by herself?  She is, as you point out, the one who has the most to lose (because AG is a neighbor and wants/needs to stay on generally good terms with the family) and she has no more to gain than the rest of the girls in her group.  It's time for some of the other girls to step up to the plate and help handle this.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE**
Post by: joraemi on March 27, 2013, 09:13:13 AM
They don't have to let AG steamroll their entire night - that would be allowing AG's rude and annoying behaviour to prevail at their expense.  They do, however, need to be nice.....and part of being nice is not treating AG as though they are seeing a cockroach approaching and they need to stomp on it quick before it crawls over someone's foot.  In other words....treat her as you would treat anyone else at the prom ( everyone is there to mingle aren't they? ) and deal with the problem if it arises - not going into defensive mode the instant she comes over.

OP's DD seems like although she does not particularly care for this girl she is at least concerned about being polite since she is asking for help dealing with this beforehand.  That is a smart thing to do.  It doesn't sound as though anyone wants to be deliberately cruel.

Oh absolutely not!!  On the whole, they feel sorry for AG, but at least understand that she isn't "theirs" to fix or manage, you know? They are just having a hard time communicating this to AG - they are a really nice bunch of girls and if she hadn't been so OTT with DD at Homecoming would probably just kind of take turns with her on Prom night so to speak - not the ideal solution, but then they wouldn't have to hurt her feelings, you know? Homecoming was just....bad. :(
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE**
Post by: gen xer on March 27, 2013, 09:23:32 AM
Dinner is *at* prom.  The limo ride is just to get there.

DD would not have issue with visiting with AG for a bit here and there.  However, AG completely monopolized DD at Homecoming.  Even when DD tried to slip away to spend time with someone else, AG literally *chased* her (as in - running!).

DD wants it to be clear that this girl is not part of their group - they won't tell her where/when they are getting the limo - but if she thinks she is part of the group, she won't make other arrangements, kwim? They absolutely do not want to continue to let her assume that she will be included in their plans/seating arrangements at dinner/group at afterprom, etc.

DD is hoping that the convo I mentioned above will be enough to get AG thinking that DD might actually be serious about not letting her tag along everywhere she goes at prom.  The group is by no means "circling the wagons" - for the members that have dates this is merely a blip on the radar - "Oh - no - AG isn't in our group" - it's the girls that are going without dates (AG1, AG2, DD, BFF) that are trying to prevent a rerun of Homecoming for my DD and themselves since they have been named by AG as the people she is spending time with.

It's kind of sad - last night DD said, "I wish I wasn't so nice.  Then these things wouldn't happen to me." (she IS that typical nice girl - nice to everyone, smart, pretty, etc, etc).  I, of course, said she should absolutely be nice!  But that nice doesn't equal doormat or being taken advantage of.  I told her you can be nice and still be firm with people.

In regards to the stalker/crush thing - I don't think it's an issue - I think AG is just completely socially clueless and a bit odd. Unfortunately, DD has already had issues with another student with stalker-ish behaviors, the police have been involved, etc, so we are pretty aware of stuff like that.

DD has absolutely no obligation to AG if AG is misguided enough to not make her own arrangements - if DD did not lead her on in any way ( and it doesn't sound as though she has ). Obviously I feel kind of sorry for AG but sometimes that cold dash of water in the face is what people need for assuming other people are going to alter all their arrangements for them. 

I was thinking - if the seating arrangements for dinner are all set then wouldn't AG look a little foolish hanging around the table?  If she tried to worm her way in then DD and her friends ( and I agree with you that it should not fall on DD to be the one who has to do all the dirty work ) are well within their rights to tell her to find her own seat.  It would be awkard and uncomfortable if it comes to that....but that is AG's own fault - social ineptitude comes with a price. 

Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE**
Post by: GrammarNerd on March 27, 2013, 09:43:07 AM
OP, I have to ask....what is your impression of AG's parents?  Do they seem clueless?  Do they realize that she doesn't have friends in her own grade that she hangs out with?  Do you think that they could be encouraging her to behave like she does, or perhaps has she just fed them the stories that she's assuming to be true (that she's BFFs with your DD) and they have no reason to doubt her? 

I have a kid who doesn't do a lot with kids outside of school, but I try to keep my eye on the situation.  I would be mortified if I found out that he'd been behaving like AG, and I'd try to find him a way to behave/make friends that doesn't involve foisting himself on unsuspecting people and clinging to them all evening.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE**
Post by: rashea on March 27, 2013, 09:46:02 AM
Is there someone at school who could counsel AG to help her handle situations well? If the Homecoming Dance hadn't been such and issue I would advise being prepared and dealing with it at Prom. But it's pretty likely to be a problem. And if there is going to be hurt feelings, I'd rather they happen before Prom so that everyone can enjoy Prom as much as possible. I wonder if there is someone at school that could talk to her. Maybe a teacher or counselor who could talk to her about her plans for prom and get some ideas what she's planning to do and then guide her.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE**
Post by: redboothe on March 27, 2013, 10:33:15 AM
I've been following this thread and to be honest I'm having a bit of a hard time with it - while I agree that people have the right to politely tell people when they are feeling suffocated a part of me also wants to say "Welcome to real life and being a grown up"

In essence, prom is a party hosted by a third party. You don't control the invitees and to create an exclusive grouping at the party (not the limo or the pre dinner or anything else which is self organized) seems a little off. I tried to imagine other situations, say a close friends wedding (once in a lifetime hopefully!) that I really want to enjoy however there is another guest there who I don't get along with who attaches themselves to me. In my mind the polite thing to do would be to spend some time with them and then to say "I'm sorry I'm going to catch-up with x now/I want to make sure I spend some time with y..." If they followed me into these conversations I would likely just say to myself "That's life" - it's not exactly what I want but life rarely is and since I can't control other people's behavior nor the invitees to a party hosted by a third party I might have to accept that the night might not go *exactly* as I wanted.

While I understand your DD wants to enjoy the night with her friends and I support her in using polite phrases to try and separate herself from AG at the dance I would probably not encourage her to confront this girl prior to the event - this would mean that she and her friends were making assumptions about what AG's behavior will be (even if they are backed with experience!) and might come off as being cliquey. Also I might remind her, lest she start think being nice is a bad quality, that this situation is less about "being too nice"  and more about "being mature" and acting with class and kindness.

I hope the night turns out as she hopes and that she ends up having a great time!
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE**
Post by: joraemi on March 27, 2013, 10:44:49 AM
Thank you for all the feedback. It's hard to respond to everyone since there are so many replies.

I will say though, that while I was sitting here reading through some of the responses I suddenly wished DD had been armed with, "What an interesting assumption." when AG said that AG, AG1, AG2, and DD would be spending the evening together!

Dang! ;)
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on
Post by: Mrs. Tilney on March 27, 2013, 11:34:15 AM
SO - for the moment, she has decided that when the opportuniy arises (as it should because everyone is talking about prom now), she is going to feign ignorance:

AG: I'm getting so excited about prom!

DD: Me too!  What group are you going with?

AG:....I thought I was going with you?

DD: Oh my gosh, AG. I'm so sorry. We've had our group set for quite awhile and have planned activities with our number in mind, we can't really change that now. When you said the other day that you were hanging out with me and AG1 and AG2 I thought you were joking! I'm so sorry or I would have said something right then.

Please, please tell DD not to say that. I would be crushed if someone with whom I was friendly told me that the possibility of me hanging out with them was surely a joke. DD has to walk a fine line, and that comment falls on the "cruel" side.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE**
Post by: Lynn2000 on March 27, 2013, 11:41:37 AM
Thinking back on my own school days, I'm honestly getting confused about DD's social obligations to AG. I'm picturing that when AG strolls up to DD and her friends, DD feels obligated to include AG in the conversation, to make extensive replies to her comments, etc.. And I'm wondering if this gives the impression of friendliness and inclusion to AG, when that's not really what DD wants to convey.

Would it be rude if DD and her friends did not make an effort to include AG in the conversation, even if she was standing right there? (having joined them of her own accord) If AG said something, would it be rude for the others to be like, "Oh. Hmm," then go back to their own conversation?

I ask because I feel like this was considered the "nice" way of rejecting someone when I was in school, and it seemed to be fairly effective. But, I'm having trouble figuring out if it's actually rude, or not.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE**
Post by: TheaterDiva1 on March 27, 2013, 11:47:48 AM
DD was unfortunately paired with this girl for the entire first semester in Spanish for group work.  Ag did next to nothing and usually it was DD who took up the slack so their grades wouldn't suffer. Not entirely a big deal as DD is really good in that class.  It's the point.

How did they get paired off anyway?  Did the teacher assign them or did AG "claim" DD as her partner? (I doubt this was DD's idea).  DD might want to bring this situation to the teacher's attention.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE**
Post by: joraemi on March 27, 2013, 11:59:53 AM
DD was unfortunately paired with this girl for the entire first semester in Spanish for group work.  Ag did next to nothing and usually it was DD who took up the slack so their grades wouldn't suffer. Not entirely a big deal as DD is really good in that class.  It's the point.

How did they get paired off anyway?  Did the teacher assign them or did AG "claim" DD as her partner? (I doubt this was DD's idea).  DD might want to bring this situation to the teacher's attention.

You know - I don't know if it was a coincidental pairing by the teacher or if AG initiated it.

SO - for the moment, she has decided that when the opportuniy arises (as it should because everyone is talking about prom now), she is going to feign ignorance:

AG: I'm getting so excited about prom!

DD: Me too!  What group are you going with?

AG:....I thought I was going with you?

DD: Oh my gosh, AG. I'm so sorry. We've had our group set for quite awhile and have planned activities with our number in mind, we can't really change that now. When you said the other day that you were hanging out with me and AG1 and AG2 I thought you were joking! I'm so sorry or I would have said something right then.

Please, please tell DD not to say that. I would be crushed if someone with whom I was friendly told me that the possibility of me hanging out with them was surely a joke. DD has to walk a fine line, and that comment falls on the "cruel" side.

Really?  Haven't you ever had that happen with someone and it resulted in a misunderstanding? (Someone says something that you assume is in jest when in reality they were serious)

I agree that the line here is thin - which is why DD is having such a difficult time with it. She wants to set a boundary and not hurt AG's feelings all at the same time.  She is learning that boundary setting can sometimes be a little painful for both parties, but it's a necessary skill to learn.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on
Post by: gramma dishes on March 27, 2013, 12:06:17 PM

Please, please tell DD not to say that. I would be crushed if someone with whom I was friendly told me that even  the possibility of me hanging out with them was surely a joke. DD has to walk a fine line, and that comment falls on the "cruel" side.

Wow!  I do agree with Mrs. Tilney here.  I can't imagine anything a whole lot more painfully hurtful as a teen than having someone I really liked tell me that the idea of my hanging around with her and her friends would be so totally implausible as to be funny!  Ouch!   :(
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE**
Post by: rashea on March 27, 2013, 12:11:22 PM
What if she tried calling her at home? Then it reduces some of the pressure of a face to face meeting.

She could say, "AG, I realized that the other day you were indicating that you wanted to hang out with us at prom. We're fine with hanging for a while, but we had planned this as a special night for just the group of us. I hope you understand, and I wanted to clear this up before it became a problem."

Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE**
Post by: julianna on March 27, 2013, 12:15:32 PM
DD was unfortunately paired with this girl for the entire first semester in Spanish for group work.  Ag did next to nothing and usually it was DD who took up the slack so their grades wouldn't suffer. Not entirely a big deal as DD is really good in that class.  It's the point.

How did they get paired off anyway?  Did the teacher assign them or did AG "claim" DD as her partner? (I doubt this was DD's idea).  DD might want to bring this situation to the teacher's attention.

You know - I don't know if it was a coincidental pairing by the teacher or if AG initiated it.

SO - for the moment, she has decided that when the opportuniy arises (as it should because everyone is talking about prom now), she is going to feign ignorance:

AG: I'm getting so excited about prom!

DD: Me too!  What group are you going with?

AG:....I thought I was going with you?

DD: Oh my gosh, AG. I'm so sorry. We've had our group set for quite awhile and have planned activities with our number in mind, we can't really change that now. When you said the other day that you were hanging out with me and AG1 and AG2 I thought you were joking! I'm so sorry or I would have said something right then.

Please, please tell DD not to say that. I would be crushed if someone with whom I was friendly told me that the possibility of me hanging out with them was surely a joke. DD has to walk a fine line, and that comment falls on the "cruel" side.

Really?  Haven't you ever had that happen with someone and it resulted in a misunderstanding? (Someone says something that you assume is in jest when in reality they were serious)

I agree that the line here is thin - which is why DD is having such a difficult time with it. She wants to set a boundary and not hurt AG's feelings all at the same time.  She is learning that boundary setting can sometimes be a little painful for both parties, but it's a necessary skill to learn.

I agree that saying she thought it was a joke would be hurtful.  She could pretend it was a misunderstanding -- "I'm sorry -- I know you mentioned hanging out at the prom, but I assumed you meant we'd bump into each other there.  I've actually had plans with [list of people] for a long time now -- sorry for the misunderstanding."  Okay, I'm sure someone else can come up with better wording, but the point is that assuming she must be joking about hanging out seems really mean.

I know your DD wasn't enthusiastic about telling AG she already has plans with her friends (and therefore implying "and you're not one of them"), but what about telling her she already has plans with "my close friends" (maybe something about how she's excited to spend time with her close friends before they all graduate)?  That lets AG save face by pretending she's just not as close, plus if AG protests that she's DD's friend, DD can point out that they're not close friends and don't socialize outside of school.

Is dinner assigned seating?  Is AG going to show up at prom and suddenly have nowhere to sit because DD's table is full?

Please keep encouraging DD to say something to AG as soon as possible.  I'm sure AG would rather have an accurate view of the situation beforehand instead of having a miserable time at the prom.

[/list]
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE**
Post by: SleepyKitty on March 27, 2013, 12:16:26 PM
Even when DD tried to slip away to spend time with someone else, AG literally *chased* her (as in - running!).

I've been following the thread, but I just wanted to really emphasize this bit of your post. While I agree with others that a prom is a social event, and you can't entirely control who you interact with, the above is what says to me that DD needs to speak to this girl and she needs to do it before prom. Ideally, you'd address the behaviour when it happens, not just assume it's going to happen. But literally chasing someone is completely inappropriate - that goes beyond awkward and clueless. I don't think it's malicious at all, I just think it signals that AG's behaviour is extreme enough that it ought to be per-emptively dealt with, and additionally that *in this situation* DD has the right to refuse to include her, even at a social event like prom which is hosted by a third party.

Alternatively, if DD does want to socialize with AG at the prom, but only for a little bit, I don't suggest using vague terms. It sounds like there is no way that AG is going to take a hint like, "Well, I'm heading back to my group now!" without following, so being specific might be useful. Could she make sub-plans with AG? Something like, "I'm going to be really busy with my friends, but why don't I find you after we all eat dinner for ten minutes? I have to go back to my group after that, but I'd like to say hi."
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE**
Post by: guihong on March 27, 2013, 12:20:24 PM
I've been AG :(.  Perhaps even moreso, because I never went to prom (although our prom was much more of a date thing than going in groups).

If this is getting difficult for your DD to handle (and it's taken 8+ pages for US to discuss it, and we have many more years experience than your DD), is it possible for you and DD to go talk with AG's parents?  Not in a "make AG go away" way, but perhaps there's a story behind the story that you don't know?  There's just such a fine line between firm and hurtful here.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE**
Post by: EMuir on March 27, 2013, 12:24:38 PM
AG wouldn't be seen as "chasing" if she really was part of the clique.  All the clique members are arranging to spend the whole night together, after all, and they don't find each other annoying.  I would ask why this girl is being excluded.  If she has annoying behaviors, use etiquette during conversation to counter them and either she'll stop or leave. 

It's really easy to be on the inside of the group.  I think it would be far better to relax the clique and allow this girl to just be part of the group.  They don't have to make special efforts to include her, but excluding her on purpose would be mean.  If they want to exclude her then they have to admit they are a clique and to enforce that boundary means you are mean to people who don't meet your criteria, and own that.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE**
Post by: SPuck on March 27, 2013, 12:29:43 PM
I think your daughter is going to have to decide if she wants to be miserable or hurt AG's feelings. It doesn't sound like there is going to be any middle ground with this girl. From your explanation of the previous dance it sounds like AG will spend the night latched onto your DD if given the chance, so either your DD has to handle it now or then.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE**
Post by: SleepyKitty on March 27, 2013, 12:43:09 PM
If they want to exclude her then they have to admit they are a clique and to enforce that boundary means you are mean to people who don't meet your criteria, and own that.

Some people will be friends, and some won't, and it doesn't make this group of friends a clique just because AG doesn't fit with them. It's not their job to make AG into someone they want to hang out with.

Enforcing boundaries does not make DD mean. AG was not perceived as chasing she was literally, physically chasing - running down - DD. It is completely normal to be made uncomfortable by behaviour like that, and I applaud the OP for *not* teaching her daughter that she needs to put up with it to be a "nice" girl.

As an adult, my reaction would be closer to yours - to counter the things that are annoying or uncomfortable directly in a conversation and let AG decide if she wants to change them or to no longer socialize. But DD is a teenager, in high school, and I sympathize that she doesn't feel like she can handle things that way. DD is being very careful not to be mean.

(Edited to add punctuation)
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE**
Post by: *inviteseller on March 27, 2013, 12:45:08 PM
EMuir, i have to respectfully disagree that they are acting cliquey.  I knew every person in my graduating class (small school, 135 in my class) and I would say hi when we were at lockers, or chat in a class, but everyone had their own groups of friends based on interests and personalities.  I would have been out of place trying to be part of the cheerleader group as I had nothing in common with them as much as they would have been a fish out of water with my nerd group.   I think it is wrong to actually do any more than say 'hi' to this girl or just generally chat if they run into each other in the bathroom or in a line to get a drink because by allowing AG to join them is saying she is part of a group of friends that she isn't.  It isn't a true friendship if they are only pity friends.  She obviously does not 'fit' in this group...and that is ok because not everyone fits into every group of people.  They are not rude to her, they just don't care to share her company.  On this board there are stories about having to go to events knowing someone you don't want to be around is there, and the advise is to be minimally polite by saying hello, but then moving on.  Why should the OP's DD not be allowed to do this instead of giving up her and her best friends prom experience for the sake of one girl?  It is not mean to not want to be friends with someone.  To me, the rude one in this whole story is AG for insinuating herself into a group where she has not been invited. 
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE**
Post by: Eeep! on March 27, 2013, 01:17:10 PM
AG wouldn't be seen as "chasing" if she really was part of the clique.  All the clique members are arranging to spend the whole night together, after all, and they don't find each other annoying.  I would ask why this girl is being excluded.  If she has annoying behaviors, use etiquette during conversation to counter them and either she'll stop or leave. 

It's really easy to be on the inside of the group.  I think it would be far better to relax the clique and allow this girl to just be part of the group.  They don't have to make special efforts to include her, but excluding her on purpose would be mean.  If they want to exclude her then they have to admit they are a clique and to enforce that boundary means you are mean to people who don't meet your criteria, and own that.

I really don't understand this mindset.  People are allowed to have friends. Just because you have a group of friends that you hang out with doesn't automatically make you a clique. There are just some people that you don't mesh with. They are acquaintances.  Yes, it might be nice to try to address someone's annoying behaviors but that could get quite arduous, depending upon how annoying someone really is.  This is a person who would literally -not figuratively, literally - run after someone. It seems to me that addressing her "annoying behaviors" could easily become the focus of ever single interaction. I think that is too much to ask of a group of friends.  I think all etiquette asks is that we be civil to each other. It doesn't require us to hang out with any person who thinks they want to hang out with us.

Most people recognize when they are in the acquaintance - or even friendly acquaintance - category and act accordingly.  AG has not had this realization.

(And I have to say, that the bit about copying from the OP, etc.  actually does make me think that AG isn't just socially awkward but is a bit of a moocher.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE**
Post by: CrazyDaffodilLady on March 27, 2013, 02:18:24 PM
I suggest that your daughter do everything possible to shut down AG’s expectations before the prom.  If DD has to ask (however nicely) AG to back off at the prom, AG could burst into tears and make a scene.  Unless DD has the spine to walk away, AG has taken control for the rest of the evening.  DD may wind up looking like the villain.  Tears are a good strategy for getting public attention from people who wouldn’t normally pay attention to you. Crying can elicit the sympathy, concern, and “friendship” that AG is desperate for.

I have sympathy for AG, but I’ve also been on the side where an occasion is ruined by an unwelcome participant who disrupts the group dynamics and makes herself the center of attention, whether it’s by being loud and obnoxious or by being sad and whiny.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE**
Post by: Sharnita on March 27, 2013, 02:32:31 PM
Isn't "the group" for this event the entire class?  I mean, what if the coolest of the cool decide FD and her friends are unwelcome participamts and that they msy not dine at certain tables or talk to others? Doesn't attending prom indicate thst you have agreed to a social contract that involves being cordial to people you don't otherwise hang out eith? If you wanted to restrict it to just your group then wouldn't it be best for the group yo go somrwhere alone?

Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE**
Post by: Eden on March 27, 2013, 02:49:21 PM
Isn't "the group" for this event the entire class?  I mean, what if the coolest of the cool decide FD and her friends are unwelcome participamts and that they msy not dine at certain tables or talk to others? Doesn't attending prom indicate thst you have agreed to a social contract that involves being cordial to people you don't otherwise hang out eith? If you wanted to restrict it to just your group then wouldn't it be best for the group yo go somrwhere alone?

That's not really what's happening here. First, the group are going OUT to dinner, not saying, "You can't sit at our table at this event where we all are." Second, nobody's saying they can't talk to each other or be cordial. They're saying it's okay for the OP's daughter to ask AG to give her some space. I would think the same thing appropriate if I were at a party as an adult. If one person clung to me such that I could not speak to others without him/her being there, I'd ask for some space.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE**
Post by: Eden on March 27, 2013, 02:52:42 PM
AG wouldn't be seen as "chasing" if she really was part of the clique.  All the clique members are arranging to spend the whole night together, after all, and they don't find each other annoying.  I would ask why this girl is being excluded.  If she has annoying behaviors, use etiquette during conversation to counter them and either she'll stop or leave. 

It's really easy to be on the inside of the group.  I think it would be far better to relax the clique and allow this girl to just be part of the group.  They don't have to make special efforts to include her, but excluding her on purpose would be mean.  If they want to exclude her then they have to admit they are a clique and to enforce that boundary means you are mean to people who don't meet your criteria, and own that.

I think it's important to note that this group did not set out to specifically exclude AG. They made plans without AG and she is trying to insinuate herself into them. AG is putting them and herself in this difficult position.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE**
Post by: WillyNilly on March 27, 2013, 02:53:56 PM
Isn't "the group" for this event the entire class?  I mean, what if the coolest of the cool decide FD and her friends are unwelcome participamts and that they msy not dine at certain tables or talk to others? Doesn't attending prom indicate thst you have agreed to a social contract that involves being cordial to people you don't otherwise hang out eith? If you wanted to restrict it to just your group then wouldn't it be best for the group yo go somrwhere alone?

No the population is the entire class. Human nature and basic logistics require the population be broken down into separate groups: separate groupings for dinner tables because 1 table big enough for every attendee would be unwieldy, separate groupings arriving/leaving together because the logistics of vehicle large enough for the entire class is impractical, separate groups for restrooms (girls/boys) due to modesty, separate groups (sides of the room) for dancers vs people sitting and talking at tables, and yes separate groups of friends clustered together.

That's not really what's happening here. First, the group are going OUT to dinner, not saying, "You can't sit at our table at this event where we all are."...

Actually, our OP let us know:
Dinner is *at* prom.  The limo ride is just to get there.

That's how it was at my prom too. And they were finite sized tables - they only accommodated 8-10 people (I can't remember).

And I think its fine for DD and her friends to say "our table is full." Dinner is a large portion of the prom, way more then just a few minutes of socializing. And its the more intimate part, the part where its this whole big room around you but you are there with just your friends at a private table. The dance floor is where everyone melded and groups dissipated, dinner is where people clustered with their friends. having an 'outsider' at the table could very possibly ruin the whole the night for them. That's where they have their more private conversations, and later that's their group's 'home base' versus the 'public' dance floor part.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE**
Post by: Sharnita on March 27, 2013, 02:54:41 PM
Eden, dinner is at prom.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE**
Post by: LadyL on March 27, 2013, 03:07:11 PM
Isn't "the group" for this event the entire class?  I mean, what if the coolest of the cool decide FD and her friends are unwelcome participamts and that they msy not dine at certain tables or talk to others? Doesn't attending prom indicate thst you have agreed to a social contract that involves being cordial to people you don't otherwise hang out eith? If you wanted to restrict it to just your group then wouldn't it be best for the group yo go somrwhere alone?

Yes, but this contract extends to AG too, and she has already broken it once. "Fool me once, shame on you" and all that. I agree with others that letting her down as kindly as possible before prom is better than risking a scene at prom.

Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE**
Post by: GrammarNerd on March 27, 2013, 03:07:32 PM
Isn't "the group" for this event the entire class?  I mean, what if the coolest of the cool decide FD and her friends are unwelcome participamts and that they msy not dine at certain tables or talk to others? Doesn't attending prom indicate thst you have agreed to a social contract that involves being cordial to people you don't otherwise hang out eith? If you wanted to restrict it to just your group then wouldn't it be best for the group yo go somrwhere alone?

I don't think that anyone is advocating that OP's DD not be cordial.  But there's a difference between being cordial and letting someone that you are not otherwise close with glue themselves to your side for several hours at a once-in-a-lifetime event and prevent you from enjoying said event. 

AG has already proven that she will try to monopolize OP's DD, to the point of literally running after her if OP's DD tries to walk away.  That's not normal.  And how does the saying go?  'The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior.'  AG has already said, point blank, that she intends to hang out with OP's DD and her friends.  Based on AG's own past behavior, the other girls can guess what that will entail, and they want to head that off.

OP, could you clandestinely go to the school guidance counselor and ask him/her for advice?  Tell the GC that your DD is torn, but this is a memorable night for your DD, and she's dreading it b/c of AG at the same time as she's anticipating it.  You don't even have to tell the GC who AG is, but just ask for advice on how your DD should handle it.  Be sure to mention the Homecoming incidents, and say that you're looking for how it can proactively be handled best so that the Homecoming chase doesn't repeat itself.  I mean, you/she obviously need guidance, and this person deals with the high school mentality, so he/she might have some useful advice.  And you wouldn't necessarily have to involve your DD; you could relay the info back to her.

I was friends with a couple of other girls my freshman year in college.  There was a socially awkward girl who kind of latched onto us.  I'd forgotten about her until I read this thread.  We didn't want her to be with us, but we, like OP's DD, didn't want to hurt her either.  We just ended up ditching her sometimes and making secretive plans, and tolerating her when we couldn't.  Not the best option, but it was easier b/c it was a big campus and there was nothing as formal as a Prom to worry about.  And it didn't last long b/c it was toward the end of the year.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE**
Post by: LazyDaisy on March 27, 2013, 03:21:06 PM
It sounds like OP's DD and her group want to have a larger, fluid, more shallow (not in a bad way) social arrangement so they can all mingle and dance without being tied to one another all the time. AG sounds like the kind of person who prefers to have an intimate friendship bond with only 1 or 2 people, that is exclusive -- a BFF. This really isn't about right and wrong ways of being friends with people -- both are equally valid. But one person's preference doesn't override another's. If AG had started out more willing to "move around" and have shallower bonds with others, the other girls wouldn't be so put off by her. However, even then there wouldn't be a guarantee that she would eventually find that deep friendship bond she's hoping for.

I wonder if DD could try to approach that's similar to "it's not you, it's me" kind of break up in order to soften the blow and provide constructive feedback to AG.

"AG, I like to socialize with a lot of different people and be more outgoing, and I get the impression that you like to have a small really close group -- that's OK but it's just not my thing. I'm sure there are lots of other people who might want that kind of friendship, but I don't feel as close to you as you seem to feel toward me. I hope you understand, and find someone who shares your desire for a deeper friendship. I just want to let you know that for Prom, I'll see you there, but I'm not going to hang out with you exclusively."
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE**
Post by: julianna on March 27, 2013, 03:27:16 PM
Let's say you're deciding whether to attend a social event.  You're socially awkward, so you know you won't have fun unless you're with some of your friends.  Fortunately, you find out that a group of your good friends is also planning to attend, and you look forward to spending the evening with them.  But the night of the event arrives, and you discover that none of your friends is there.

That's sort of what will happen to AG if she attends thinking that she will be an integral part of DD's group, only to have the group treat her like a casual acquaintance and avoiding spending more than a few minutes with her.  Now, I am absolutely not saying that DD and her friends are obligated to spend the entire evening with AG.  I think that as long as they are polite with her, and spend a couple of minutes socializing before excusing themselves, that is all that politeness requires.  What I am saying is that AG deserves to have ample warning before prom that the group of close friends she thinks she will spend the evening with does not exist (because they consider her just an acquaintance).  She may decide to attend anyway, or she may not.  But she should have that information in advance, which means that DD will have to spell it out for her in advance.  And, yes, DD should also ask some of DD's friends to make it clear to AG as well.  Not through any mean girl tactics, but I'm sure people here could offer suggestions.

It's not a choice between "DD spends every single minute of prom with AG" and "DD and her friends totally shun AG."  There is definitely a middle ground where DD can be nice without being stuck with AG as her shadow.  I just think it would be so much kinder to let AG know as soon as possible that the "spending the night clinging to DD" plan is not going to happen.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE**
Post by: Eden on March 27, 2013, 04:08:35 PM
It sounds like OP's DD and her group want to have a larger, fluid, more shallow (not in a bad way) social arrangement so they can all mingle and dance without being tied to one another all the time. AG sounds like the kind of person who prefers to have an intimate friendship bond with only 1 or 2 people, that is exclusive -- a BFF. This really isn't about right and wrong ways of being friends with people -- both are equally valid. But one person's preference doesn't override another's. If AG had started out more willing to "move around" and have shallower bonds with others, the other girls wouldn't be so put off by her. However, even then there wouldn't be a guarantee that she would eventually find that deep friendship bond she's hoping for.

I wonder if DD could try to approach that's similar to "it's not you, it's me" kind of break up in order to soften the blow and provide constructive feedback to AG.

"AG, I like to socialize with a lot of different people and be more outgoing, and I get the impression that you like to have a small really close group -- that's OK but it's just not my thing. I'm sure there are lots of other people who might want that kind of friendship, but I don't feel as close to you as you seem to feel toward me. I hope you understand, and find someone who shares your desire for a deeper friendship. I just want to let you know that for Prom, I'll see you there, but I'm not going to hang out with you exclusively."

I really like this post. All of it.

Also, sorry for missing the part about dinner at the prom.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE**
Post by: gen xer on March 27, 2013, 04:18:49 PM

While I understand your DD wants to enjoy the night with her friends and I support her in using polite phrases to try and separate herself from AG at the dance I would probably not encourage her to confront this girl prior to the event - this would mean that she and her friends were making assumptions about what AG's behavior will be (even if they are backed with experience!) and might come off as being cliquey.

I agree with this - I think I said earlier that preparing privately for having to deal with AG is one thing but confronting her beforehand is a bit of overkill.  I realize AG may not be the most perceptive of people but think how hurtful it could be to AG if it dawns on her that everyone has been stewing over how best to make sure she doesn't ruin their evening with her presence.

If it were me I would be mortified and offended beyond belief if I was essentially told before an event that others were already planning how best to avoid me.  This isn't to say she should endure intrusive behaviour - she should not.....but this "be cruel to be kind" advice is presumptive and kind of patronizing.  No gentle tone would ever make me feel better about someone telling me in advance "Just so you know I have no intention of associating with you at this event - I thought you should know so you don't get any ideas"  I know that is not how she would say it....but that is how it would come off.

OP I do not mean to imply that your DD and her friends are cruel - I know that if she is agonizing over this she is just the opposite - kind and sensitive. IMHO I just think it is one of those potential ( OK probable )situations that would be more gracefully handled if and when it arises.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE**
Post by: Bijou on March 27, 2013, 04:24:19 PM
I think your daughter is going to have to decide if she wants to be miserable or hurt AG's feelings. It doesn't sound like there is going to be any middle ground with this girl. From your explanation of the previous dance it sounds like AG will spend the night latched onto your DD if given the chance, so either your DD has to handle it now or then.
This situation really does call on a deeper self.  It's not like someone copying your dress style or something like that.  This is The prom.  The big deal.  Not only is it the main subject of conversation around school before it happens but also after it happens, probably for weeks.  I would invite the girl along, have fun anyway and feel better for it now and later.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE**
Post by: kansha on March 27, 2013, 04:27:06 PM
I think your daughter is going to have to decide if she wants to be miserable or hurt AG's feelings. It doesn't sound like there is going to be any middle ground with this girl. From your explanation of the previous dance it sounds like AG will spend the night latched onto your DD if given the chance, so either your DD has to handle it now or then.
This situation really does call on a deeper self.  It's not like someone copying your dress style or something like that.  This is The prom.  The big deal.  Not only is it the main subject of conversation around school before it happens but also after it happens, probably for weeks.  I would invite the girl along, have fun anyway and feel better for it.
would your answer be the same if instead of 'AG' it was a guy trying to monopolize the OP's DD at prom? 

why is it the OP's DD's 'job' to make sure another student has a good time at their once-in-a-lifetime event, at the cost of her own enjoyment?
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE**
Post by: Sophia on March 27, 2013, 04:29:53 PM
I don't think the wedding or party analogy works for this situation.  I think an Event where you pay money to attend would be a better analogy.  For example, Shakespeare in the Park.  People often go in groups.  Share a blanket and refreshments.  Talk mostly with each other.  But, sometimes with people nearby and wander off to talk to other people.  AG is someone that just invites herself to your blanket and plops down. 
Then you add in that Prom is an Expensive Event.  As a teenager, Prom was as big of a deal as a week's vacation is today.  Maybe more so.  There is NO way I'd let AG cling to me. 
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE**
Post by: Shoo on March 27, 2013, 04:30:54 PM
I think your daughter is going to have to decide if she wants to be miserable or hurt AG's feelings. It doesn't sound like there is going to be any middle ground with this girl. From your explanation of the previous dance it sounds like AG will spend the night latched onto your DD if given the chance, so either your DD has to handle it now or then.
This situation really does call on a deeper self.  It's not like someone copying your dress style or something like that.  This is The prom.  The big deal.  Not only is it the main subject of conversation around school before it happens but also after it happens, probably for weeks.  I would invite the girl along, have fun anyway and feel better for it. 

I have to agree.  It's not just your daughter's prom, OP.  It's AG's too.  It's not a private event, it's for everyone.  If your daughter and her friends don't want to include her in the build-up to the prom, that's fine.  That's the easy part.  The hard part is AT the prom, where AG has the right to enjoy herself, too.  She doesn't get to bother other people, like she did at Homecoming, so if she starts to do that, your daughter needs to speak up THEN.  Not before.  That's presumptuous and not very charitable.  But to pre-emptively ruin the prom for AG when your daughter doesn't even know for sure there is going to be an issue would be kind of cruel, IMO.

If there's a problem, your daughter should deal with it when it happens.  And please remind her that a little kindness goes a long way.  Your daughter is very lucky to have a group of friends she can count on to hang with at momentous events like prom.  Apparently, AG is not so lucky. 
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE**
Post by: Bijou on March 27, 2013, 04:36:05 PM
I think your daughter is going to have to decide if she wants to be miserable or hurt AG's feelings. It doesn't sound like there is going to be any middle ground with this girl. From your explanation of the previous dance it sounds like AG will spend the night latched onto your DD if given the chance, so either your DD has to handle it now or then.
This situation really does call on a deeper self.  It's not like someone copying your dress style or something like that.  This is The prom.  The big deal.  Not only is it the main subject of conversation around school before it happens but also after it happens, probably for weeks.  I would invite the girl along, have fun anyway and feel better for it.
would your answer be the same if instead of 'AG' it was a guy trying to monopolize the OP's DD at prom? 

why is it the OP's DD's 'job' to make sure another student has a good time at their once-in-a-lifetime event, at the cost of her own enjoyment?
Regarding if the AG were a guy, no, my answer would not be the same because that situation is not the same.

I didn't say it was her job to make AG have a good time.  I said, "I would invite the girl along..."  I am speaking for myself,  putting in the perspective of how I would handle the situation. 
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE**
Post by: PrettySticks on March 27, 2013, 05:03:04 PM
I guess my issue lies with the thinking that DD needs to be straightforward, because people like AG don't take hints.  Except... I'm not sure I see where AG was given any hints.  If DD didn't say anything to her at Homecoming when this happened (which I certainly don't blame her for, because that's not exactly easy), then AG probably just thinks they hung out together at Homecoming.  (I wouldn't necessarily call the "running away" a hint, because as I recall we were all always sprinting off on one direction or another at dances - when they played a song I liked and I had to dance rightthen, or my best friend saw that boy she liked was finally standing alone, etc.)

I would also bet that AG is following someone's advice.  OP says that the two girls never see each other outside of school, but what if AG is saying to someone (mother, therapist, guidance counselor) "DD is so nice in class. I wish we hung out more outside of school."  That adult is going to give her advice to get to know DD like: "If you share a class, try to partner up with her"(Spanish) or "If you know you'll both be at an event, hang out with her there" (Homecoming).  And if DD is being nice, as it would seem she is, then AG probably thinks she's making progress. 

Count me amongst those that feel for both girls, because neither side is fun.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE**
Post by: EMuir on March 27, 2013, 05:11:55 PM
If AG was a guy my response would be the same, just deal with any annoying behaviors at the time.  If AG clings, DD needs to point out that she wants to mingle and talk to different people.    If DD has to get to the point where she has to tell AG she wants to spend some time without her at the prom, then that will happen and AG will deal. 

Your DD shouldn't think of talking to AG as "ruining" anything.  It's unwise to think of any event as one that can be ruined by one small thing or you'll just go through life with every event "ruined" and not enjoying yourself.  Tell your DD to look at how the others are treating AG with subtle body language and mirror that. 

For some reason I'm reminded of kittens.  If one kitten plays too rough the other kittens refuse to play with that one until s/he learns manners.  That feedback is important.  If the other kittens don't teach the rough kitten, that kitten can grow up not knowing rough play is bad, and someday run into a bigger cat that might really hurt it.   

And there's nothing wrong with having a clique! This reminds me of the geek social fallacies (one version at http://www.plausiblydeniable.com/opinion/gsf.html). 

Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE**
Post by: LazyDaisy on March 27, 2013, 05:18:27 PM
I think your daughter is going to have to decide if she wants to be miserable or hurt AG's feelings. It doesn't sound like there is going to be any middle ground with this girl. From your explanation of the previous dance it sounds like AG will spend the night latched onto your DD if given the chance, so either your DD has to handle it now or then.
This situation really does call on a deeper self.  It's not like someone copying your dress style or something like that.  This is The prom.  The big deal.  Not only is it the main subject of conversation around school before it happens but also after it happens, probably for weeks.  I would invite the girl along, have fun anyway and feel better for it. 

I have to agree.  It's not just your daughter's prom, OP.  It's AG's too.  It's not a private event, it's for everyone.  If your daughter and her friends don't want to include her in the build-up to the prom, that's fine.  That's the easy part.  The hard part is AT the prom, where AG has the right to enjoy herself, too.  She doesn't get to bother other people, like she did at Homecoming, so if she starts to do that, your daughter needs to speak up THEN.  Not before.  That's presumptuous and not very charitable. But to pre-emptively ruin the prom for AG when your daughter doesn't even know for sure there is going to be an issue would be kind of cruel, IMO.

If there's a problem, your daughter should deal with it when it happens.  And please remind her that a little kindness goes a long way.  Your daughter is very lucky to have a group of friends she can count on to hang with at momentous events like prom.  Apparently, AG is not so lucky.
I don't think it's presumptive or pre-emptive to let AG know, since she is trying to plan a group with DD, that the group AG has theoretically put together isn't going to happen. DD needs to let AG know in advance that she won't be joining her so that AG can make other arrangements. Think of it like an RSVP to the "invitation" to form a group. I don't think DD can speak for the other two girls that AG has included though, just herself.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE**
Post by: Judah on March 27, 2013, 05:19:30 PM
I think your daughter is going to have to decide if she wants to be miserable or hurt AG's feelings. It doesn't sound like there is going to be any middle ground with this girl. From your explanation of the previous dance it sounds like AG will spend the night latched onto your DD if given the chance, so either your DD has to handle it now or then.
This situation really does call on a deeper self.  It's not like someone copying your dress style or something like that.  This is The prom.  The big deal.  Not only is it the main subject of conversation around school before it happens but also after it happens, probably for weeks.  I would invite the girl along, have fun anyway and feel better for it. 

I agree that this an important event in a teen's life. It is The prom.  The big deal. It's also very expensive.  I think prom tickets last year were $120 per person last year and that didn't include dinner.  Which is why OP's DD should get to have a good time and not have to worry about AG trying to monopolize her time and then feeling guilty because she doesn't want to hurt AG. 
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE**
Post by: WillyNilly on March 27, 2013, 05:22:55 PM
^ my prom was 19 years ago and it cost $110 per person.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE**
Post by: Shoo on March 27, 2013, 05:25:10 PM
Personally, I think the OP's daughter would have fonder memories of The Prom if she didn't carry with her the memory of how she and her friends actively worked to exclude one poor girl who was desperate to find a group to hang with.  That's just kind of how I feel about it.  The years go by and I know that I, personally, have regrets about how I treated some people when I was that age.  I wish I didn't have to live with that.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE**
Post by: redboothe on March 27, 2013, 06:02:36 PM
I want to second Shoo's comment - I know Prom feels like a huge deal when you are in high school but when you are older and have some more perspective on these situations I think your memories of the kind of person you were will mean more than the event its self.

I was something of an awkward teenager and I remember feeling like I was an outsider, or an unwanted interloper - even as I grew into a successful, confident adult this feeling remained with me and I look back on my university years and can see a lot of experiences and opportunities I missed out on because I was afraid I would be made to feel like that again (I quit a varsity rowing program because I was the new girl and I was afraid the vets didn't like me!) I also grew up with a brother who was the epitome of cool - captain of all the sports team, an international model, the smartest kid around - and even though he was two years older than me I remember him making a point to include me in things, to watch out for me at parties and bring me into conversation if I looked lost, to make me feel welcome and accepted. When I gave a speech at his wedding I thanked him for making me feel cool - as a 16 year old it meant the world to me.

Those stories don't have a lot to do with etiquette, I realize that, and I do think it is both polite and reasonable for your DD to prepare herself with some polite phrases she can use during the night to help make some space should AG be clinging too tightly but I really do want to caution against telling this girl outright that she is not wanted around at all or making her feel unwelcome or avoided. I think erring on the side of inclusivity and kindness is always best and that in the long run it will likely yield the most positive outcome, both for AG and for your daughter.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE**
Post by: wolfie on March 27, 2013, 06:11:00 PM
Personally, I think the OP's daughter would have fonder memories of The Prom if she didn't carry with her the memory of how she and her friends actively worked to exclude one poor girl who was desperate to find a group to hang with.  That's just kind of how I feel about it.  The years go by and I know that I, personally, have regrets about how I treated some people when I was that age.  I wish I didn't have to live with that.

I think she would have fonder memories of the prom if she didn't have memories of one girl who couldn't be bothered with her any other day of the week and only used OP's daughter when it was convenient for her turning the entire event to be about her.

It really goes both ways and I don't like the insinuation that if the OP's daughter doesn't roll over and turn into a doormat she is not a good or nice person.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE**
Post by: Sharnita on March 27, 2013, 06:15:07 PM
I think there is probably a pretty different view on what one has to do to avoid being a doormat. I think that DD could avoid it without saying anything overt (or asking adults to do so).
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE**
Post by: Eeep! on March 27, 2013, 06:22:31 PM
Personally, I think the OP's daughter would have fonder memories of The Prom if she didn't carry with her the memory of how she and her friends actively worked to exclude one poor girl who was desperate to find a group to hang with.  That's just kind of how I feel about it.  The years go by and I know that I, personally, have regrets about how I treated some people when I was that age.  I wish I didn't have to live with that.

I think she would have fonder memories of the prom if she didn't have memories of one girl who couldn't be bothered with her any other day of the week and only used OP's daughter when it was convenient for her turning the entire event to be about her.

It really goes both ways and I don't like the insinuation that if the OP's daughter doesn't roll over and turn into a doormat she is not a good or nice person.

I agree with this. The fact is that groups of friends develop a sort of short hand/way of speaking that people that don't regularly hang out with them aren't a part of.  Adding someone new to the mix can change the whole feeling of the evening. You have to explain things, you avoid certain inside jokes so you aren't rude, you try not to talk about things the other person knows nothing about. All of that makes for a different type of evening. It just does. On top of that, it sounds like AG isn't the type to just sit there quietly.  It really sounds like an evening with her there would be very different than an evening without her there. (And by "without" her I don't mean that they are to act like she doesn't exist at all or shun her at the event or similar rude behavior, just that she isn't included in the core plans.)

And I think it is worth reminding people that AG started this whole thing by essentially inviting herself into OP's daughters plans.  This isn't a group of people who sat around and decided that they didn't like someone and are plotting a way to exclude her.  So when people are suggesting that she talk to AG prior to the event, it is essentially as a delayed response/clarification to that original conversation.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE**
Post by: rose red on March 27, 2013, 06:23:39 PM
What bothers me is that AG is not just some socially awkward girl.  She cheated off the OP's DD.  She clings and chases DD and I suspect it's because she knows DD doesn't like to hurt people.  Past actions matter.  She sounds like a user.  Maybe due to desperation of wanting a friend, but still a user.

The OP said her DD and her group have no problem with mingling, that the problem is the clinging and chasing.  I actually think it's a kindness to let AG know ahead of time that she plans on spending this last dance with her friends and AG should plan to mingle with different groups in addition to theirs.

This is coming from someone who was friendless and socially awkward in school.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE**
Post by: Sharnita on March 27, 2013, 06:33:09 PM
Actually, I think DD'd response to the cheating shows that she can make her boundaries evident without being rude or even too blunt.  AG did get the point and yet they did not have a "scene".
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE**
Post by: LazyDaisy on March 27, 2013, 06:33:52 PM
Building resentment will not leave OP's DD or the other girls with pleasant memories of Prom or this girl. It doesn't do anyone any favors to create a lasting impression that DD's feelings are inconsequential, and that AG's feelings are more important. And on the opposite side, AG deserves a friend who truly appreciates that kind of closeness, but she'll never find it if she continues to believe she already has it with DD.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE**
Post by: *inviteseller on March 27, 2013, 06:37:23 PM
But why should the DD and her close group of friends have to share their prom, the last big event for them all to share before they graduate and go off to their separate colleges and lives just because this girl is socially awkward?  The AG has not shown herself to be a friend to the DD by trying to cheat off of her on numerous occasions and dropping the ball on group projects, and the homecoming behavior was just so out there.  Again, it is NOT the DD's or her friends problem that this girl has no friends and wants to be theirs.  She is not, and again, it does this girl absolutely no favors to treat her as such out of pity.  No one should be required to suck it up and be with someone they don't want to be with just for the fact that this girl has dreams of grandeur about their supposed friendship.  That is not being nice, that is being a doormat.  The sooner AG knows she has to make other plans, the better it will be, and yes, no matter how DD says it, it will cause hurt feelings, but it is better to be let down before the prom so she can find other plans that at the prom when every ones prom gets ruined.  If I was told to just be friends and play nice for the sake of another ones feelings at the detriment of my own, I would only feel resentment.  DD and her friends should not feel guilty because this girl is not their friend, it is not their fault she has no other plans.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE**
Post by: Sharnita on March 27, 2013, 06:39:13 PM
But why should the DD and her close group of friends have to share their prom, the last big event for them all to share before they graduate and go off to their separate colleges and lives just because this girl is socially awkward?  The AG has not shown herself to be a friend to the DD by trying to cheat off of her on numerous occasions and dropping the ball on group projects, and the homecoming behavior was just so out there.  Again, it is NOT the DD's or her friends problem that this girl has no friends and wants to be theirs.  She is not, and again, it does this girl absolutely no favors to treat her as such out of pity.  No one should be required to suck it up and be with someone they don't want to be with just for the fact that this girl has dreams of grandeur about their supposed friendship.  That is not being nice, that is being a doormat.  The sooner AG knows she has to make other plans, the better it will be, and yes, no matter how DD says it, it will cause hurt feelings, but it is better to be let down before the prom so she can find other plans that at the prom when every ones prom gets ruined.  If I was told to just be friends and play nice for the sake of another ones feelings at the detriment of my own, I would only feel resentment.  DD and her friends should not feel guilty because this girl is not their friend, it is not their fault she has no other plans.

That isn't why they have to share "their" prom.  They have to share it because it is also "her" prom. And one of the precepts is that you do some socializing with various guests, not just your closest friends.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE**
Post by: Rusty on March 27, 2013, 06:44:30 PM
If nothing is said to this girl before the Prom, you can take it as a guarantee that her behaviour will be the same as at the Homecoming.   Your DD has set a precedent for this girl, she knows your DD "will look after her".   She is probably terrified of attending the event friendless and your DD is her backstop.

If your DD does not want a repeat of the Homecoming she will have to deal with it now.   

Whether or not is is kind or decent is not the issue.  Your DD does not want a repeat of Homecoming so she will have to say something and the sooner the better as at least then the girl may be able to come up with an alternative plan than "chasing DD all over".   

We have all seen or had experiences of socially awkward people in our lives, sometimes you can just grin and bear it, but for a special event like this I think it would be better to act now rather than risk DD's special night being ruined and you hearing about it for years to come.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE**
Post by: Firecat on March 27, 2013, 06:53:58 PM
But why should the DD and her close group of friends have to share their prom, the last big event for them all to share before they graduate and go off to their separate colleges and lives just because this girl is socially awkward?  The AG has not shown herself to be a friend to the DD by trying to cheat off of her on numerous occasions and dropping the ball on group projects, and the homecoming behavior was just so out there.  Again, it is NOT the DD's or her friends problem that this girl has no friends and wants to be theirs.  She is not, and again, it does this girl absolutely no favors to treat her as such out of pity.  No one should be required to suck it up and be with someone they don't want to be with just for the fact that this girl has dreams of grandeur about their supposed friendship.  That is not being nice, that is being a doormat.  The sooner AG knows she has to make other plans, the better it will be, and yes, no matter how DD says it, it will cause hurt feelings, but it is better to be let down before the prom so she can find other plans that at the prom when every ones prom gets ruined.  If I was told to just be friends and play nice for the sake of another ones feelings at the detriment of my own, I would only feel resentment.  DD and her friends should not feel guilty because this girl is not their friend, it is not their fault she has no other plans.

That isn't why they have to share "their" prom.  They have to share it because it is also "her" prom. And one of the precepts is that you do some socializing with various guests, not just your closest friends.

Some socializing is one thing. But based on the experience at Homecoming, that's not what AG is going to be expecting.

And I don't think it's rude or presumptuous to draw the conclusion that someone's behavior is going to be similar at similar events (or why are so many posters in the blog post about the tea party guest being supportive of the OP not inviting H to this year's party)? To me, AG's clinging to DD at Homecoming is every bit as predictive as the rude guest's behavior at the tea party, if not as extreme.

I kind of think that you teach people how to treat you, and you teach people how you're likely to behave. And AG has been, in my opinion, pretty loud and clear on this topic. So I think DD has a reasonable basis to be apprehensive. And I also think that DD is exceptionally kind and sweet to be worried about AG's feelings at all.

That doesn't mean I don't feel for AG. It feels awful to be socially awkward and on the outside, and it's very hurtful to find that someone you consider a friend just doesn't share the feeling. No matter how nice they are about it.

So no, I don't think that DD needs to include AG in her group...and I think that she should tell AG in advance that AG isn't going to be included in the limo or with DD's group at the dinner.

Kindness is a wonderful thing, but I don't think it needs to extend to DD gritting her teeth at not being able to pry AG off of her with a crowbar...again. Granted, I am not a person who handles "clingy" well. Any clear indication of someone exhibiting "clingy" behavior with me is going to have me running the opposite direction, because I just can't handle it. I try to just be very "busy" in general, and elusive at larger events when dealing with someone like that...but there have been times when I've really wished that someone had told them earlier in life to just back off a little bit, already.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE**
Post by: Sharnita on March 27, 2013, 07:08:12 PM
I don't  think that the limo is an issue period. OP has said pretty much from the beginning that wasn't the problem so I don't think we need to worry about it at this point.  As far as dinner - if there is a table and once the group is seated there are one, two, three seats left I don't think OP (or anyone) is entitled to tell people they can't sit in those seats if they choose.  They only paid for one prom ticket, that only gives them control over the seats they are filling, not any empty seats at their table.  If they are telling some people they are welcome and some they are not then they do come off as setting themselves above other attendees.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE**
Post by: Slartibartfast on March 27, 2013, 07:14:35 PM
Why does she have to do anything pre-emptively?  If AG doesn't say anything ahead of time and isn't trying to hone on on the limo, your daughter and her friends can just deal with issues as they arise:

- if AG tries to sit right next to DD and monopolize her during the dinner, have DD and a friend be prepared to switch places as soon as AG sits down (or better yet, arrange for DD and the other dateless (date-free?) girls to sit in the middle of their group so there aren't any empty chairs next to them).

- if AG tries to chase after your DD again, your DD can be more blunt while it's happening: "AG, I'm headed over to talk with someone else.  I'll see you later!"

- if AG does make some comment wanting your DD to commit to spending the dance with her, your DD can politely pass the buck "Gosh, AG, I've already got a group and I'm not the one making the arrangements.  I'm sure I'll see you there, but I'm making plans with this group.  I hope you enjoy the dance, though!"

It doesn't take any more confrontation to address it during the dance than it would take to do it beforehand, and it has the benefit of not requiring your DD to plan out all the worst-case scenarios and prepare battle plans for them.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE**
Post by: LeveeWoman on March 27, 2013, 07:25:15 PM
This is not  a hosted event during which people must socialize with others as they would if someone else were paying for their dinners.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE**
Post by: Mammavan3 on March 27, 2013, 07:45:40 PM
I know this is a stressful situation for your DD and you, but I just wanted to point out that, were your DD a different kind of person, she would just tell AG to bug off and be done with it. It is her kind heart that makes this difficult. However, she's a bright girl and will in time learn how to extract herself gracefully without hurting the other person. OTOH, it is much harder for uncaring people to learn empathy and caring.

The thought and worry that you're putting into her response speaks well for both of you.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE**
Post by: Bijou on March 27, 2013, 08:11:31 PM
Personally, I think the OP's daughter would have fonder memories of The Prom if she didn't carry with her the memory of how she and her friends actively worked to exclude one poor girl who was desperate to find a group to hang with.  That's just kind of how I feel about it.  The years go by and I know that I, personally, have regrets about how I treated some people when I was that age.  I wish I didn't have to live with that.
Exactly, exactly how I feel about it.  I, too, have regrets about how I treated some people at that age and I wish I could do it over. 
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE**
Post by: LeveeWoman on March 27, 2013, 08:16:53 PM
Joraemi's daughter has not done anything to AG. To the contrary, AG has intruded on her time and space, has trod upon several boundaries. By giving in and allowing AG to, once again, behave inappropriately, Joraemi's daughter will be sanctioning that behavior, and she will allow her prom to be about AG instead of about her own enjoyment.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE**
Post by: Shoo on March 27, 2013, 08:19:32 PM
Joraemi's daughter has not done anything to AG. To the contrary, AG has intruded on her time and space, has trod upon several boundaries. By giving in and allowing AG to, once again, behave inappropriately, Joraemi's daughter will be sanctioning that behavior, and she will allow her prom to be about AG instead of about her own enjoyment.

But AG hasn't DONE anything yet.  Several of us have said that if and when she does -- at the prom -- that is the time for the OP's daughter to do something about it.  Not pre-emptively, because that would be presumptuous.  The OP has said the pre-prom activities are not going to be a problem.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE**
Post by: gramma dishes on March 27, 2013, 08:24:50 PM
Joraemi's daughter has not done anything to AG. To the contrary, AG has intruded on her time and space, has trod upon several boundaries. By giving in and allowing AG to, once again, behave inappropriately, Joraemi's daughter will be sanctioning that behavior, and she will allow her prom to be about AG instead of about her own enjoyment.

This. 

I think DD should be highly commended for being so thoughtful about how to handle this and not wishing to hurt AG's feelings.  But LeveeWoman is absolutely right.  AG has NOT concerned herself with DD's feelings at all.  Quite the contrary.  She's quite willing to make this event all about her and what she wants and how she would like it to proceed.


Certainly I'm not advocating rudeness or gross insensitivity, but I think DD should absolutely have the right to experience her prom with her friends as planned without feeling she has to put AG's feelings above her own.  AG is NOT the more important girl here.  Neither is more or less important than the other, but one should not have to sacrifice her own good time at a once in a lifetime important event just to coddle the other one.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE**
Post by: snowdragon on March 27, 2013, 08:32:04 PM
Joraemi's daughter has not done anything to AG. To the contrary, AG has intruded on her time and space, has trod upon several boundaries. By giving in and allowing AG to, once again, behave inappropriately, Joraemi's daughter will be sanctioning that behavior, and she will allow her prom to be about AG instead of about her own enjoyment.

But AG hasn't DONE anything yet.  Several of us have said that if and when she does -- at the prom -- that is the time for the OP's daughter to do something about it.  Not pre-emptively, because that would be presumptuous.  The OP has said the pre-prom activities are not going to be a problem.

But sparing her the public humiliation of being told AT the prom that the person she most wants to spend it with - does not want her around, would be a great kindness to AG, IMHO.
 
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE**
Post by: rose red on March 27, 2013, 08:38:36 PM
I don't see it as doing something pre-emptively.  She's has already done something.  She invited herself, and not by asking but stating as fact. 

AG: Do you have a date yet?
DD: No.
AG: Perfect! Neither do I, so it'll just be me, you, AG1, and AG2. (AG1 and AG2 are not part of the group either....)
DD:(managed to not have jaw hit floor....) I suppose their will be other people at the dance that don't have dates.  ***makes escape***
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE**
Post by: citadelle on March 27, 2013, 08:42:28 PM
Thinking back on my own school days, I'm honestly getting confused about DD's social obligations to AG. I'm picturing that when AG strolls up to DD and her friends, DD feels obligated to include AG in the conversation, to make extensive replies to her comments, etc.. And I'm wondering if this gives the impression of friendliness and inclusion to AG, when that's not really what DD wants to convey.

Would it be rude if DD and her friends did not make an effort to include AG in the conversation, even if she was standing right there? (having joined them of her own accord) If AG said something, would it be rude for the others to be like, "Oh. Hmm," then go back to their own conversation?

I ask because I feel like this was considered the "nice" way of rejecting someone when I was in school, and it seemed to be fairly effective. But, I'm having trouble figuring out if it's actually rude, or not.

Isn't ignoring someone like that a classic variation of "girl bullying"? I imagine that is how it would feel to the one being ignored.

As a teacher of middle school, I hear and see a lot. We are expected to address bullying seriously. Many times, what a "victim"perceives as bullying, a "perpetrator" perceives as drawing boundaries.

I have read many sad tales on this site about experiences of being bullied. There are always two sides to a story (and I am obviously not referring to any physical bullying).

As a teacher, if OP's daughter came to me asking for help keeping AG away from her at prom, I would probably refer her to the guidance counselor. I would  probably also feel really badly for AG.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE**
Post by: jedikaiti on March 27, 2013, 08:49:46 PM
I don't  think that the limo is an issue period. OP has said pretty much from the beginning that wasn't the problem so I don't think we need to worry about it at this point.  As far as dinner - if there is a table and once the group is seated there are one, two, three seats left I don't think OP (or anyone) is entitled to tell people they can't sit in those seats if they choose.  They only paid for one prom ticket, that only gives them control over the seats they are filling, not any empty seats at their table.  If they are telling some people they are welcome and some they are not then they do come off as setting themselves above other attendees.

That's not the problem at all. It's that, based on past experience, AG seems very very likely to try to super-glue herself to DD. Not socializing, monopolizing. As in must be there, holding or trying to get DD's attention the entire time, and preventing her from socializing with anyone else.

AG is welcome to dine and sit wherever she chooses, within the guidelines and rules of the establishment and event (in this case, Prom). What she is NOT welcome to do is glom on to someone else and dominate their entire evening. Since past history and recent conversation indicates that is very likely, that makes pre-emptive action not a bad idea. Because DD wants to be able to socialize with more than just AG.

Joraemi's daughter has not done anything to AG. To the contrary, AG has intruded on her time and space, has trod upon several boundaries. By giving in and allowing AG to, once again, behave inappropriately, Joraemi's daughter will be sanctioning that behavior, and she will allow her prom to be about AG instead of about her own enjoyment.

But AG hasn't DONE anything yet.  Several of us have said that if and when she does -- at the prom -- that is the time for the OP's daughter to do something about it.  Not pre-emptively, because that would be presumptuous.  The OP has said the pre-prom activities are not going to be a problem.

I disagree. One, it seems VERY likely that there will be a problem, and the heat of the moment is usually not the best time to handle things in a calm, polite manner. Two, AG seems to be under the impression that she will get to spend much or all of Prom with DD & Co, and would you rather find out that your plans aren't going to work in advance, or after they're already underway? I see great potential for a huge crying scene at Prom if something isn't said in advance.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE**
Post by: johelenc1 on March 27, 2013, 08:54:44 PM
I don't know any teenager - then or now - that would invite someone who wasn't their friend to be apart of their group at prom just to be nice.   Ok, I'm sure that somewhere, some selfless teen as done so, but really, it's not something that happens.  Nor, frankly, should it.

Prom is certainly a rite of passage of high school.  BUT, it is not a RIGHT.  One does not have to go to prom.  Most kids want to, but that doesn't mean they get to.  The cost may be too much, one may not have a date, one may not have any friends, and/or one may not want to go completely alone.  All that is sad, but, honestly, just too bad.

Where I grew up, the prom was for juniors and seniors.  So, potentially, you could go both years.  And, actually, since a junior or senior could take anyone, you could potentially go 4 or 5 years to the prom.   I, oddly enough since I was generally a bit of a misfit, went to several proms.  I went to another school's prom as a date when I was a freshman.  I went to my junior prom with a long-time family friend.  I went to a another school's prom with a good friend our senior year and to my own senior prom alone.  I did go to another senior prom with a guy who liked me.  That was my "good deed".  I went with him so he could go to his prom.  However, nice as I was, I would have never taken someone I didn't like to my own prom just to be nice to them.  I don't know anyone who would have.

Also observed at these 5 proms I attended, it was nothing like the group love mixer some posters are described.   There was generally fairly little mixing between groups.  You hung out with the group you came with or your closest friends that you met up with after dinner.  (Dinner was separate and generally done as a pair or as a double date).  You may say hello to others or chat briefly but in general everyone was enjoying being with their own crowd.  Frankly, there really wasn't any room for a lone prom goer to insert herself into any given group.  (When I went by myself, I didn't even try.  I respected my friends with their dates too much.  I just wanted to go for a short time.)

I don't see any reason why the OP's DD needs to invite AG to crash her party, either directly or indirectly. Sure, it's sad AG may not go to prom, but that is very much not the OP's DD's problem. 
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE**
Post by: LeveeWoman on March 27, 2013, 09:17:15 PM
Joraemi's daughter has not done anything to AG. To the contrary, AG has intruded on her time and space, has trod upon several boundaries. By giving in and allowing AG to, once again, behave inappropriately, Joraemi's daughter will be sanctioning that behavior, and she will allow her prom to be about AG instead of about her own enjoyment.

But AG hasn't DONE anything yet.  Several of us have said that if and when she does -- at the prom -- that is the time for the OP's daughter to do something about it.  Not pre-emptively, because that would be presumptuous.  The OP has said the pre-prom activities are not going to be a problem.

Yes, she has done something. AG tried to glue herself to Joraemi's daughter at the homecoming dance and chased after her when she tried to get away, she's tried to get her to let her cheat off of her, and she already has tried to horn in on her experience for the prom.

History is a good indicator of future behavior.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE**
Post by: LifeOnPluto on March 27, 2013, 09:35:31 PM
Personally, I think the OP's daughter would have fonder memories of The Prom if she didn't carry with her the memory of how she and her friends actively worked to exclude one poor girl who was desperate to find a group to hang with.  That's just kind of how I feel about it.  The years go by and I know that I, personally, have regrets about how I treated some people when I was that age.  I wish I didn't have to live with that.

I agree - to a point. Which is why I stated in my previous post that it would be a kindness for DD's group to allow this girl to dance with them, make small talk with her, etc.

BUT - and this is an important but - a key factor is how willing DD's friends are, to "step up to the plate" and interact with AG. Because it sounds like at Homecoming, the other girls didn't run any interference. They were more than happy for the OP's DD to shoulder the entire burden of "babysitting" AG.

If DD's friends don't want anything to do with AG at the Prom, I can see a repeat of Homecoming occurring, where AG latches onto DD, because DD is the only one kind enough to talk with her. Conversely, if the rest of the group takes a turn at interacting with AG, it reduces the chances of AG latching onto one single person, and enhances the chances of everybody having a great time.

If the rest of the group are not remotely interested in hanging out with AG on the night, I do think AG needs to be gently told, beforehand. This isn't about delivering a "pre-emptive strike". It's about giving AG the information she needs, so she can decide whether or not she wants to attend the Prom.

Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE**
Post by: WillyNilly on March 27, 2013, 09:44:30 PM
I don't know any teenager - then or now - that would invite someone who wasn't their friend to be apart of their group at prom just to be nice.   Ok, I'm sure that somewhere, some selfless teen as done so, but really, it's not something that happens.  Nor, frankly, should it.

Prom is certainly a rite of passage of high school.  BUT, it is not a RIGHT.  One does not have to go to prom.  Most kids want to, but that doesn't mean they get to.  The cost may be too much, one may not have a date, one may not have any friends, and/or one may not want to go completely alone.  All that is sad, but, honestly, just too bad.

Where I grew up, the prom was for juniors and seniors.  So, potentially, you could go both years.  And, actually, since a junior or senior could take anyone, you could potentially go 4 or 5 years to the prom.   I, oddly enough since I was generally a bit of a misfit, went to several proms.  I went to another school's prom as a date when I was a freshman.  I went to my junior prom with a long-time family friend.  I went to a another school's prom with a good friend our senior year and to my own senior prom alone.  I did go to another senior prom with a guy who liked me.  That was my "good deed".  I went with him so he could go to his prom.  However, nice as I was, I would have never taken someone I didn't like to my own prom just to be nice to them.  I don't know anyone who would have.

Also observed at these 5 proms I attended, it was nothing like the group love mixer some posters are described.   There was generally fairly little mixing between groups.  You hung out with the group you came with or your closest friends that you met up with after dinner.  (Dinner was separate and generally done as a pair or as a double date).  You may say hello to others or chat briefly but in general everyone was enjoying being with their own crowd.  Frankly, there really wasn't any room for a lone prom goer to insert herself into any given group.  (When I went by myself, I didn't even try.  I respected my friends with their dates too much.  I just wanted to go for a short time.)

I don't see any reason why the OP's DD needs to invite AG to crash her party, either directly or indirectly. Sure, it's sad AG may not go to prom, but that is very much not the OP's DD's problem.

^ Seriously, this. Just because everyone is at prom, doesn't mean there all together with one another. Prom is like a high school micro-organism night club. Sure hundreds of people are there, dressed up, out for a nice night, ready to dance, but they aren't necessarily interested in, nor should they be expected to, socialize with everyone there. Some people like to flutter around from group to group and sometimes its works, others like to stick together in their own little pack, and that works too.


But AG hasn't DONE anything yet...

I honestly don't know where you are getting this from. Seriously.  How can you say AG hasn't done anything yet when AG in no uncertain terms told DD that she (AG) would be attending prom with DD, AG1 and AG2?  Does that not count as something?  To me clearly stated intent, built upon concrete past history absolutely is something: its clearly stated intent.  And that's what this thread is about: how does DD counter AG's intent with DD's own intent.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE**
Post by: kareng57 on March 27, 2013, 09:50:05 PM
Thinking back on my own school days, I'm honestly getting confused about DD's social obligations to AG. I'm picturing that when AG strolls up to DD and her friends, DD feels obligated to include AG in the conversation, to make extensive replies to her comments, etc.. And I'm wondering if this gives the impression of friendliness and inclusion to AG, when that's not really what DD wants to convey.

Would it be rude if DD and her friends did not make an effort to include AG in the conversation, even if she was standing right there? (having joined them of her own accord) If AG said something, would it be rude for the others to be like, "Oh. Hmm," then go back to their own conversation?

I ask because I feel like this was considered the "nice" way of rejecting someone when I was in school, and it seemed to be fairly effective. But, I'm having trouble figuring out if it's actually rude, or not.

Isn't ignoring someone like that a classic variation of "girl bullying"? I imagine that is how it would feel to the one being ignored.

As a teacher of middle school, I hear and see a lot. We are expected to address bullying seriously. Many times, what a "victim"perceives as bullying, a "perpetrator" perceives as drawing boundaries.

I have read many sad tales on this site about experiences of being bullied. There are always two sides to a story (and I am obviously not referring to any physical bullying).

As a teacher, if OP's daughter came to me asking for help keeping AG away from her at prom, I would probably refer her to the guidance counselor. I would  probably also feel really badly for AG.


I very much agree, perhaps this is when the school guidance-counsellor should be stepping in.  This is beyond the expertise of the girl's acquaintances, as well as their parents.

AG has been doing her best to try to fit in, but it's not working.  But, the reaction of her acquaintances could be seen as exclusion/bullying.  Of course I'm not saying that it's right - but the advice of a professional could be paramount, here.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE**
Post by: snowdragon on March 27, 2013, 10:09:45 PM
Joraemi's daughter has not done anything to AG. To the contrary, AG has intruded on her time and space, has trod upon several boundaries. By giving in and allowing AG to, once again, behave inappropriately, Joraemi's daughter will be sanctioning that behavior, and she will allow her prom to be about AG instead of about her own enjoyment.

But AG hasn't DONE anything yet.  Several of us have said that if and when she does -- at the prom -- that is the time for the OP's daughter to do something about it.  Not pre-emptively, because that would be presumptuous.  The OP has said the pre-prom activities are not going to be a problem.

 You know, I've been thinking about this.  AG HAS done something to the OP's daughter. AG ruined homecoming for her. Does the OP's daughter now have to wait for AG to ruin the prom for her, too? 
   I can understand the sympathy for the awkward outsider, but seriously - a prom is a once in a lifetime event and the OP's child should not have to sacrifice that for this girl who has already proven to be willing to chase her down, monopolize her and generally not care how the AG's actions affect the OP's daughter.
 The OP's daughter owes it not only to the girls in her group, but to herself to prevent a repeat of homecoming. 
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE**
Post by: *inviteseller on March 27, 2013, 10:14:35 PM
It is not bullying to rebuff unwanted advances, which is what DD is doing.  These girls aren't plotting some Carrie scheme, they just do not want someone they don't consider a friend butting in on the plans they have set up.  If AG had come to the group and said "hey guys, I'm going stag to the prom, do you have room at your table for one more?" then maybe they would consider it, but she announced to the DD that since she didn't have a date either she would be joining in.  She tries to cheat, she literally chases down the DD at homecoming and now she is deciding she is part of a group because she can't make friends on her own.  She seems a bit bullyish herself.  I asked my own 17 yr old DD what she thought about this and she said " it would be mean if they were being cruel to her, making comments about her, laughing at her but they aren't.  They just don't want to have someone they do NOT consider a friend just deciding her prom fun was going to their responsibility to provide." 
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE**
Post by: Sharnita on March 27, 2013, 10:22:34 PM
It is not bullying to rebuff unwanted advances, which is what DD is doing.  These girls aren't plotting some Carrie scheme, they just do not want someone they don't consider a friend butting in on the plans they have set up.  If AG had come to the group and said "hey guys, I'm going stag to the prom, do you have room at your table for one more?" then maybe they would consider it, but she announced to the DD that since she didn't have a date either she would be joining in.  She tries to cheat, she literally chases down the DD at homecoming and now she is deciding she is part of a group because she can't make friends on her own.  She seems a bit bullyish herself.  I asked my own 17 yr old DD what she thought about this and she said " it would be mean if they were being cruel to her, making comments about her, laughing at her but they aren't.  They just don't want to have someone they do NOT consider a friend just deciding her prom fun was going to their responsibility to provide."

She paid for an available seat.  If they paid for an additional seat it isn't available, if they didn't pay for another seat and it is unoccupied she can indeed announce she will be joining them.  Any other attendee might do the same.  Imagine if every group had the right to tell her she couldn't sit at the extra seats at their tables, where exactly does she go fi they all decline her company?  Or is it only DD and her crew who should be given that right? 
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE**
Post by: FauxFoodist on March 27, 2013, 10:23:09 PM
Joraemi's daughter has not done anything to AG. To the contrary, AG has intruded on her time and space, has trod upon several boundaries. By giving in and allowing AG to, once again, behave inappropriately, Joraemi's daughter will be sanctioning that behavior, and she will allow her prom to be about AG instead of about her own enjoyment.

But AG hasn't DONE anything yet.  Several of us have said that if and when she does -- at the prom -- that is the time for the OP's daughter to do something about it.  Not pre-emptively, because that would be presumptuous.  The OP has said the pre-prom activities are not going to be a problem.

But sparing her the public humiliation of being told AT the prom that the person she most wants to spend it with - does not want her around, would be a great kindness to AG, IMHO.

Pod.  In high school, DH had an interest in a fellow senior who was nice to him and considered her his friend.  Their senior class went to Disneyland for Senior Night as did many high school senior classes.  I know DH headed to Senior Night on the school bus with the understanding that he was going to hang out with Friend that night.  They get all the way to Disneyland and, prior to getting off the bus, she tells him that she wants to hang out with her friends, not him.  DH spends the evening by himself and has a horrible night.  Now, DH can be a bit much at time, not picking up social cues, but he's also a sweet guy so I could see the girl not knowing how to break the news to him but really not wanting to spend the evening hanging out with him.  I could see myself being that girl from his high school as I, too, had some "cling-ons" in high school (including one definite stalker who, out of frustration trying to get him to stop bothering me but still be nice and not having it work, I finally screamed at in front of a bunch of students, "Leave me the **** alone!!!").  I could understand why this girl did what she did to DH, but it would've been far kinder to let him know in advance that she didn't want to hang out with him.

I don't think it would be doing AG a kindness to wait until prom to let her know that DD and friends do not want to hang out with her.  I don't know of a good way to let AG know gently (go to AG's house and tell her?).  It'll suck for sure, but it'll suck more to find out at prom.  I know I don't think kindly of the girl waiting until they were at Disneyland to let DH know she didn't want to hang out with him.

As far as looking back and wishing I were nicer to people in high school?  I'm pleased to say I was as nice as I wanted to be in high school.  I was nice to people as a rule.  However, nice didn't mean I had to socialize with everyone.  In fact, now that I think about it, when I was a junior and then-BFF was a senior, we and some of our friends ended up with a cling-on the first few days of school.  A freshman decided to be "bold" and attach himself to this group and that group at school.  It was very weird for the bunch of us to find this little kid all of a sudden hanging on the periphery of our circle.  We were a bunch of goth kids so I guess he thought he'd try Goth Kid Group #1 first.  We didn't tell him to leave, but we didn't encourage him because he really didn't fit in.  After a few days, we saw him attempt to infiltrate Goth Kid Group #2 (much to our relief).  They must not have taken to him either because a few weeks later, we finally saw him with a group that did seem to accept him.  While none of us really were mean kids, we didn't want this kid hanging out with us but didn't know how to get rid of him, short of being mean (fortunately, he made the choice for us).

Another time, on Senior Ditch Day (again, I was a junior and my friend a senior -- different friend), the plan was that the senior class was meeting up at a park then going to Disneyland.  There was a girl many of us really didn't like (she was super-obnoxious) and when everyone started grouping up at the park, she was one of the last individuals left without a ride when Friend and I were getting ready to leave.  Friend offered to give Girl a ride to Disneyland then we must've had a mind meld (we both thought, "Oh, no, if he does that, we'll probably get stuck hanging out with her") because he then said, "Oh, I'm sorry, but I'm not going to have room in my car" so we left without her.  Turns out Girl and another girl (Girl 2) got left behind (I was surprised about Girl 2 since I always thought she was well-liked -- not by her class apparently).  Anyway, found out later from Girl 2 (who thought it was humiliating but laughed it off), Girl 2 decided to just go home.  Girl 1, though, was peeved, went back to school and told all the teachers where everyone went (I don't think the teachers cared).  Am I sorry we didn't take Girl 1 with us?  Not on your life.  I remember spending a fun day at Disneyland with Friend (who was one of my few friends who was able to attend my wedding a couple of months ago).  I think if Girl 1, like AG, had spent more time in high school not alienating fellow students, then, perhaps, she'd have friends to hang with at the prom (how can you not know that cheating off someone's homework is totally not cool???).  I'm not saying I don't have regrets regarding high school (would've spent much more time focused on my education, for one), but I definitely don't regret my level of niceness/friendliness.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE**
Post by: joraemi on March 27, 2013, 10:28:52 PM
**update**

OP here.  Y'all have been busy here! Whew! Took me a bit to get caught up with the thread. I had one bit of info that I wanted to share with you guys, but needed to verify with DD first, and it's relevant to the update.

Additional info:AG sits at DD's lunch table. There are members of DD's prom group at the lunch table as well as other girls besides AG that aren't in DD's prom group.

So - here is what happened today as the AG/DD were walking down the hall....

AG: do you have your dress?
DD: Yes. I got it at Store X.
AG: we have a lunch table prom group, right?
DD: well, not really. Patty isn't part of the group, Jane isn't...I've had my group set for quite awhile now.
AG: but you and me and AG1 and AG2 don't have dates.
DD: I think there will be lots of groups there of girls that don't have dates

:::they go to class:::

When DD got home she told me about all of this and said that another member of the group mentioned to DD that she had almost the exact same conversation with AG today. She said, "mom- I need to tell her today- I can't let her continue to think this is going to happen."

She sent AG a text message to this effect:

"Hey! I'm sorry if I gave you the impression our lunch table has a prom group. We don't have a group with our our lunch table. My group has been planned for awhile and our plans are pretty well set. I'm sorry if there was a misunderstanding. See you at school!"

AG responded immediately with "that's ok". DD said, "I hope she isn't crying or anything."

I hope so too. I was a bit encouraged by the fact the AG brought it up- she was clearly picking up on some clues somewhere, so that was a good thing.

 I gave DD some of the phrases that you all recommended if she needs to excuse herself from AG at the prom/after prom, just in case it's an issue. If for some reason AG is really clinging to her and monopolizing her, she will speak to a chaperone.

I also just want to clarify that shunning AG at the prom is not the intention of DD or anyone else in the group. DD does not enjoy this persons company. But she will be polite and friendly if AG floats into the group for awhile at prom(like she is every day at school), but will also set limits and disengage if AG is clinging.

I can surely see everyone has a lot of strong feelings about the situation- we do too! Thank you for all the different points of view. I'll keep you posted for sure!
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE #87,#173**
Post by: citadelle on March 27, 2013, 10:38:16 PM
Sounds like good progress, OP.

As for the senior ditch day story, I think that being left behind bc no one likes you is the kind of thing that really scars a person. I know it wasn't necessarily anyone's responsibility, but it doesn't seem like appropriate karma for being annoying. It is the kind of thing  someone might post here as an example of how insensitively they were treated in school.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE**
Post by: buvezdevin on March 27, 2013, 10:41:27 PM
I have been following this thread with interest and share many of the views previously expressed.

My thought is that, were I OP's DD, I would address this with AG before prom, to alleviate my concern and hopefully avoid a poor experience for either person (AG or DD) at prom.

I would not make it about the group.  I would speak with AG and explain I was a bit surprised and taken aback when AG had been so intent on being with me for all of the homecoming event.  I'd add that while i thought many would be happy to see AG at prom, as would I, I would not want AG counting on me to be her companion for the evening.

Trying to address the matter as what a group does or doesn't want is problematic for many reasons.

OP's DD explaining, gently but directly, that she will not be AG's companion for an event seems better done before the event, given the previous homecoming experience - and because AG has stated her view that DD (and others) will hang out/be her companions for the evening.  I would consider it managing expectations more than setting boundaries. 

If, at the prom, AG tries to attach herself to the group - that would be a matter to handle in the moment, but AG's strong inclination to attach to OP's DD has been demonstrated, and the prior occassion can be used to explain in advance that DD would prefer not to repeat that herself.

Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE #87,#173**
Post by: FauxFoodist on March 27, 2013, 10:49:50 PM
As for the senior ditch day story, I think that being left behind bc no one likes you is the kind of thing that really scars a person. I know it wasn't necessarily anyone's responsibility, but it doesn't seem like appropriate karma for being annoying. It is the kind of thing  someone might post here as an example of how insensitively they were treated in school.

Would it help to mention that Friend's first inclination was to be nice to Girl despite the fact that when, a year earlier, Girl heard Friend's father had died, she said "I wish my father were dead; I pray for that every night" (say this to a guy whose beloved father had just died unexpectedly?).  I didn't mention it because I didn't think it germane to the story, but Girl wasn't just annoying -- she was really obnoxious.  I was friends with a lot of people who weren't great (Friend, himself, could be pretty over-the-top), but Girl went far beyond that.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE**
Post by: GrammarNerd on March 27, 2013, 11:08:15 PM
I get a chuckle from it....I went to prom in a warmup suit. 

Well, no, I didn't really go TO Prom, but rather I walked through it and said hi to a few people.  See, we didn't really go in groups, and I (of course) didn't have a date.  I didn't really care at the time either.  (Socially, I just wasn't at that point yet; late bloomer.) But I would never have crashed another group, or assumed that I was going with someone without having had detailed conversations about it first.  And that's what AG has done.

I think the main point to remember is that AG has crashed the DD's plans before, and has a history of clinging to her at an important dance.  This cannot be dismissed even with the intention of being 'nice'.  And it gives the DD cause to make sure that it won't happen again, through whatever means are comfortable to her (without her being mean, which doesn't sound like it will be a problem anyway.)  The DD has every right to protect her prom experience.

If you have a reasonable expectation that something will happen, and you don't want that thing to happen, there's nothing rude about being preemptive in ensuring that it won't happen (as long as you do it politely).

OP, I saw your update, and I'm glad that your DD sent her the text.  But I would caution her to be on the lookout for clues that AG is willfully avoiding getting the point.  She may have been blindsided by the text, but then she'll try to bring it up more and hope that your DD won't go any further with 'denying' her.  So it may turn out OK, and that's great if it does, but just keep your guard up, IYKWIM.

(If anyone is wondering, I was one of the photographers for the yearbook, and I knew the school would be open b/c of Prom, so I used the opportunity to go to the darkroom to develop some film and make some prints.  This was back before digital photography was even a dream.  I walked through Prom on the way out, and though I didn't say much more than 'hi' to some people I knew, I felt like a bit of a rebel, which was kind of cool at the time.)  :)

Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE #87,#173**
Post by: Eden on March 28, 2013, 08:50:06 AM
I think it's hard to give really specific advice of what to do AT the dance because it will depend on how AG approaches the group. I do agree that saying any open seats at their table are off limits (unless  they already planned for someone in particular to occupy them) would be rude. But if during the dance OP's daughter asked AG for some space, I see no issue with that. Again, I am of the opinion that OP's daughter should handle this herself and not involve chaperones. There's probably no way to avoid the issue altogether, but I think OP's daughter has shown enough grace AND backbone to get some space between her and AG without making a scene. Sounds to me like she just needs a little reassurance that she's not a big old meanie if she does it.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE**
Post by: rose red on March 28, 2013, 09:11:29 AM
*snip*

Also observed at these 5 proms I attended, it was nothing like the group love mixer some posters are described.   There was generally fairly little mixing between groups.  You hung out with the group you came with or your closest friends that you met up with after dinner.  (Dinner was separate and generally done as a pair or as a double date).  You may say hello to others or chat briefly but in general everyone was enjoying being with their own crowd.  Frankly, there really wasn't any room for a lone prom goer to insert herself into any given group.  (When I went by myself, I didn't even try.  I respected my friends with their dates too much.  I just wanted to go for a short time.)

Thank you for writing that.  I never went to prom so felt I had no right to say so, but that's how I imagine it.  I did not understand all those posts about how prom is "one school. one group."  Sure there would be talking with friends, but after all, won't boyfriends/girlfriends spend most of their time alone together in the crowd?

Yes, AG has the right to buy a ticket and sit at her assigned table.  What she doesn't have the right to do is stalk someone and that's what the OP's daughter is trying to avoid.  She's not trying to prevent AG from going to prom or even socializing with her in a nice normal fashion.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE**
Post by: Yvaine on March 28, 2013, 09:18:13 AM
*snip*

Also observed at these 5 proms I attended, it was nothing like the group love mixer some posters are described.   There was generally fairly little mixing between groups.  You hung out with the group you came with or your closest friends that you met up with after dinner.  (Dinner was separate and generally done as a pair or as a double date).  You may say hello to others or chat briefly but in general everyone was enjoying being with their own crowd.  Frankly, there really wasn't any room for a lone prom goer to insert herself into any given group.  (When I went by myself, I didn't even try.  I respected my friends with their dates too much.  I just wanted to go for a short time.)

Thank you for writing that.  I never went to prom so felt I had no right to say so, but that's how I imagine it.  I did not understand all those posts about how prom is "one school. one group."  Sure there would be talking with friends, but after all, won't boyfriends/girlfriends spend most of their time alone together in the crowd?

Yeah, I don't remember that either. I remember that we had a table with, I think, either six or eight seats so we could have 3 or 4 couples at it and IIRC we had to decide these table arrangements ahead of time. (And yes, they sold the tickets in pairs. You had to buy them with a "date" and it had to be an opposite-sex date. In 1995, even.) Our friend group was a little bigger than our dinner table, so there was a somewhat larger circle that we bopped around the dance floor with. But you couldn't go sit at other people's tables. And people mostly talked to people they usually talked to anyway--though I do have fond memories of a few people who were stuck-up to me most of the time making surprised remarks that I looked nice that night. ;)
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE**
Post by: wolfie on March 28, 2013, 09:23:23 AM
*snip*

Also observed at these 5 proms I attended, it was nothing like the group love mixer some posters are described.   There was generally fairly little mixing between groups.  You hung out with the group you came with or your closest friends that you met up with after dinner.  (Dinner was separate and generally done as a pair or as a double date).  You may say hello to others or chat briefly but in general everyone was enjoying being with their own crowd.  Frankly, there really wasn't any room for a lone prom goer to insert herself into any given group.  (When I went by myself, I didn't even try.  I respected my friends with their dates too much.  I just wanted to go for a short time.)

Thank you for writing that.  I never went to prom so felt I had no right to say so, but that's how I imagine it.  I did not understand all those posts about how prom is "one school. one group."  Sure there would be talking with friends, but after all, won't boyfriends/girlfriends spend most of their time alone together in the crowd?

Yeah, I don't remember that either. I remember that we had a table with, I think, either six or eight seats so we could have 3 or 4 couples at it and IIRC we had to decide these table arrangements ahead of time. (And yes, they sold the tickets in pairs. You had to buy them with a "date" and it had to be an opposite-sex date. In 1995, even.) Our friend group was a little bigger than our dinner table, so there was a somewhat larger circle that we bopped around the dance floor with. But you couldn't go sit at other people's tables. And people mostly talked to people they usually talked to anyway--though I do have fond memories of a few people who were stuck-up to me most of the time making surprised remarks that I looked nice that night. ;)

That is exactly how my prom was too! I actually don't remember most of it - wasn't all that really. But I really don't remember mixing with other people all that much. It was pretty much like a regular school day - just we were dressed much fancier and ate dinner and danced instead of being in the school cafeteria.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE #87,#173**
Post by: Sharnita on March 28, 2013, 09:42:49 AM
We had longer, banquet type tables so maybe 14 or so people. Of course some were further down the table and there was also conversation with the tables on either side. Then on the dance floor you just found yourself out there kind of surrounded by everyone. Conersation was not all that deep even with people in your group because the music and movement did not really contribute for that kind of evening.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE #87,#173**
Post by: Yvaine on March 28, 2013, 10:32:46 AM
We could hear each other talk at dinner but not once the dancing started. Dinner had quiet, soothing music (and as I said above, it was a small group and you made arrangements ahead of time for who was at your table) and then the dancing portion had music that was louder and, well, more danceable. Just as in a nightclub, no one was going to have a deep conversation on the dance floor, but people kind of danced in their friend groups anyway. And dinner and dancing were completely separate parts of the evening (though in the same room). The tables were still there during dancing in case you needed to set something there or sit down and rest, but there was no longer any food. It was something like dinner from 8-9 and dancing from 9-12.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE**
Post by: siamesecat2965 on March 28, 2013, 10:59:00 AM

 Yeah, I don't remember that either. I remember that we had a table with, I think, either six or eight seats so we could have 3 or 4 couples at it and IIRC we had to decide these table arrangements ahead of time. (And yes, they sold the tickets in pairs. You had to buy them with a "date" and it had to be an opposite-sex date. In 1995, even.) Our friend group was a little bigger than our dinner table, so there was a somewhat larger circle that we bopped around the dance floor with. But you couldn't go sit at other people's tables. And people mostly talked to people they usually talked to anyway--though I do have fond memories of a few people who were stuck-up to me most of the time making surprised remarks that I looked nice that night. ;)

Mine was in 1984, and included dinner. You bought your tickets in pairs, no singles, and you made arrangements to sit at specific tables with people ahead of time. While I do recall socializing with others, I pretty much stuck to my group of friends I sat with, except on the dance floor when everyone was out there in a big group. I also recall several people who wouldn't have given me the time of day, complimenting me on my dress etc. 
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE**
Post by: nuit93 on March 28, 2013, 11:02:16 AM
*snip*

Also observed at these 5 proms I attended, it was nothing like the group love mixer some posters are described.   There was generally fairly little mixing between groups.  You hung out with the group you came with or your closest friends that you met up with after dinner.  (Dinner was separate and generally done as a pair or as a double date).  You may say hello to others or chat briefly but in general everyone was enjoying being with their own crowd.  Frankly, there really wasn't any room for a lone prom goer to insert herself into any given group.  (When I went by myself, I didn't even try.  I respected my friends with their dates too much.  I just wanted to go for a short time.)

Thank you for writing that.  I never went to prom so felt I had no right to say so, but that's how I imagine it.  I did not understand all those posts about how prom is "one school. one group."  Sure there would be talking with friends, but after all, won't boyfriends/girlfriends spend most of their time alone together in the crowd?

Yeah, I don't remember that either. I remember that we had a table with, I think, either six or eight seats so we could have 3 or 4 couples at it and IIRC we had to decide these table arrangements ahead of time. (And yes, they sold the tickets in pairs. You had to buy them with a "date" and it had to be an opposite-sex date. In 1995, even.) Our friend group was a little bigger than our dinner table, so there was a somewhat larger circle that we bopped around the dance floor with. But you couldn't go sit at other people's tables. And people mostly talked to people they usually talked to anyway--though I do have fond memories of a few people who were stuck-up to me most of the time making surprised remarks that I looked nice that night. ;)

Mine was in 1999, the school allowed same-sex pairings but wouldn't sell single tickets.  We didn't get served dinner, but it was held at a ballroom in the city instead of our school in the suburbs.

Which was fine by me, I had no intention of spending $75 to dance in the cafeteria.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE #87,#173**
Post by: Sharnita on March 28, 2013, 11:36:38 AM
As a side note I find it interesting how many schools didn't/won't sell single tickets for prom.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE #87,#173**
Post by: Lorelei_Evil on March 28, 2013, 11:46:51 AM
Add mine to that list.  No date, no ticket, no prom.  Very conservative town.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE #87,#173**
Post by: Yvaine on March 28, 2013, 11:50:11 AM
As a side note I find it interesting how many schools didn't/won't sell single tickets for prom.

I can only imagine how someone in a same-sex couple might have felt when faced with the rule.  :'( For me, unattached to anyone of any gender at the time, it was a lesser issue but still annoying because I couldn't go stag or just declare a same-sex platonic friend my date and be done with it. I had to make arrangements with a guy, and it turned out we were attaching different levels of importance to the "date" which led to some angst and drama.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE #87,#173**
Post by: whatsanenigma on March 28, 2013, 11:52:35 AM
Add mine to that list.  No date, no ticket, no prom.  Very conservative town.

At my school (this was back in 1994) the only thing that was advertised on posters, etc, was the double ticket.  So it would have been easy to assume that singles weren't welcome.  But I just asked the sellers if I could buy a single ticket.  They blinked and froze for a second and then said, "Well, I guess so," and sold me the ticket.  I was allowed to do it but I had to ask first, is the point.  And the way they stared at me, it seemed as if the idea really had never occured to them that someone might want to go without a date, but once this radical new idea was introduced, they had no problem with it.

I got the last laugh, though.  I was the only person to buy a single ticket.  But I wasn't the only one to go to prom without a date.  Several girls had bought double tickets assuming they could get dates later-and it didn't happen.  So they paid double for nothing.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE #87,#173**
Post by: jaxsue on March 28, 2013, 11:54:10 AM
Add mine to that list.  No date, no ticket, no prom.  Very conservative town.

I was forbidden to attend any school dance. It was considered "worldly" and sinful. Very, very conservative parents.  :P
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE #87,#173**
Post by: Yvaine on March 28, 2013, 11:56:51 AM
Add mine to that list.  No date, no ticket, no prom.  Very conservative town.

At my school (this was back in 1994) the only thing that was advertised on posters, etc, was the double ticket.  So it would have been easy to assume that singles weren't welcome.  But I just asked the sellers if I could buy a single ticket.  They blinked and froze for a second and then said, "Well, I guess so," and sold me the ticket.  I was allowed to do it but I had to ask first, is the point.  And the way they stared at me, it seemed as if the idea really had never occured to them that someone might want to go without a date, but once this radical new idea was introduced, they had no problem with it.

Believe me, asking didn't help at ours. People asked every year I was at that school, to no avail (no idea if they've changed it in more recent years). They also said very explicitly over the PA, when announcing ticket sales, that you could not buy a single ticket. You didn't have to actually be dating your date, but you did have to rustle up an opposite-sex person to go with. The other rule was that one member of the couple had to be a senior, and neither could be a freshman.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE #87,#173**
Post by: Lorelei_Evil on March 28, 2013, 11:58:42 AM
Add mine to that list.  No date, no ticket, no prom.  Very conservative town.

At my school (this was back in 1994) the only thing that was advertised on posters, etc, was the double ticket.  So it would have been easy to assume that singles weren't welcome.  But I just asked the sellers if I could buy a single ticket.  They blinked and froze for a second and then said, "Well, I guess so," and sold me the ticket.  I was allowed to do it but I had to ask first, is the point.  And the way they stared at me, it seemed as if the idea really had never occured to them that someone might want to go without a date, but once this radical new idea was introduced, they had no problem with it.

I got the last laugh, though.  I was the only person to buy a single ticket.  But I wasn't the only one to go to prom without a date.  Several girls had bought double tickets assuming they could get dates later-and it didn't happen.  So they paid double for nothing.

I heard there were a few from my class that had purchased doubles and tried to go with same gender friends as a friend group, but they were denied entry.  It was almost 25 years ago and I try never to set foot in the place, so it's very likely policy has changed. 

Several people I graduated with got married in the week after graduation.  People pair off young in this state. 
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE #87,#173**
Post by: Moray on March 28, 2013, 11:59:32 AM
Add mine to that list.  No date, no ticket, no prom.  Very conservative town.

At my school (this was back in 1994) the only thing that was advertised on posters, etc, was the double ticket.  So it would have been easy to assume that singles weren't welcome.  But I just asked the sellers if I could buy a single ticket.  They blinked and froze for a second and then said, "Well, I guess so," and sold me the ticket.  I was allowed to do it but I had to ask first, is the point.  And the way they stared at me, it seemed as if the idea really had never occured to them that someone might want to go without a date, but once this radical new idea was introduced, they had no problem with it.

Believe me, asking didn't help at ours. People asked every year I was at that school, to no avail (no idea if they've changed it in more recent years). They also said very explicitly over the PA, when announcing ticket sales, that you could not buy a single ticket. You didn't have to actually be dating your date, but you did have to rustle up an opposite-sex person to go with. The other rule was that one member of the couple had to be a senior, and neither could be a freshman.

That's what I encountered, too.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE #87,#173**
Post by: Sharnita on March 28, 2013, 12:05:37 PM
As a teacher, i would getupset to hear ticket for dances advertised where the couple price was less per person than the single - $20 per couple or $15 for a single.  That used to tick me off but Iwas never in the position to do anything.  I haven't heard that in the past few years so I don't know if things have changed, if they stopped making it so obvious or if I stopped noticing as a means or preserving my sanity.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE #87,#173**
Post by: Yvaine on March 28, 2013, 12:10:15 PM
And then for homecoming (less formal--dress code was called semi-formal, and it was cheaper and held in the gym rather than an offsite hall), all tickets were single and everybody paid the same price. It was only prom that had the special rules. There was also a ballroom dance class we all had to take in PE during the semester leading up to prom. I think the school administration had a vision of picturesque couples waltzing elegantly like in the movies. ;) But that didn't really happen and they didn't play the right music for that anyway.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE #87,#173**
Post by: Lorelei_Evil on March 28, 2013, 12:22:15 PM
Let me put it this way: Napoleon Dynamite was filmed just up the highway a few miles.  ;)

*I hate that song.*
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE #87,#173**
Post by: nuit93 on March 28, 2013, 12:26:02 PM
Add mine to that list.  No date, no ticket, no prom.  Very conservative town.

I was forbidden to attend any school dance. It was considered "worldly" and sinful. Very, very conservative parents.  :P

"Footloose" just got stuck in my head :)
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE #87,#173**
Post by: Elisabunny on March 28, 2013, 01:44:51 PM
Let me put it this way: Napoleon Dynamite was filmed just up the highway a few miles.  ;)

*I hate that song.*

Howdy, Neighbor!

I grew up in a different state, where non-dating groups were also unheard of.  So another friend and I spent the evening watching Red Dawn and High Road to China.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE #87,#173**
Post by: BeagleMommy on March 28, 2013, 02:00:16 PM
Mine was 1983, but you were allowed to buy single tickets.  The only restriction was you had to either be a senior or dating a senior to go.  That and the band was not allowed to play anything by Ozzy Ozbourne.  The school district considered him vulgar.  ::)
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE #87,#173**
Post by: TootsNYC on March 28, 2013, 02:09:33 PM
The prom at our school was hosted by the juniors for the seniors.
Each member of the junior and senior classes was invited and allowed to bring another perso; you could invite anyone you wanted. Or not invite.


And from the time you were freshmen, your class was raising money to host the party. So you hosted the party your class could afford, which often included recruiting mom-type volunteers to make and serve the food in the gym, which you had all decorated. MY class paid to host everyone at a country club not terribly far away--we were fund-raising whizzes, apparently.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE #87,#173**
Post by: Minmom3 on March 28, 2013, 02:35:44 PM
As for the senior ditch day story, I think that being left behind bc no one likes you is the kind of thing that really scars a person. I know it wasn't necessarily anyone's responsibility, but it doesn't seem like appropriate karma for being annoying. It is the kind of thing  someone might post here as an example of how insensitively they were treated in school.

Would it help to mention that Friend's first inclination was to be nice to Girl despite the fact that when, a year earlier, Girl heard Friend's father had died, she said "I wish my father were dead; I pray for that every night" (say this to a guy whose beloved father had just died unexpectedly?).  I didn't mention it because I didn't think it germane to the story, but Girl wasn't just annoying -- she was really obnoxious.  I was friends with a lot of people who weren't great (Friend, himself, could be pretty over-the-top), but Girl went far beyond that.

I don't think I agree - I think there should be a penalty for being an annoying person, much less for being a obnoxious person.  Behavior has consequences.    Not being friends with someone has consequences.  We all learn to moderate our behavior because of the results prior behavior brings us.  Just because somebody doesn't pick up on the annoyed looks coming their way doesn't mean being firmer in expressing annoyance with them is a wrong thing to do.  Being a teen in high school means learning how behavior affects one's life, and it isn't the schoolmates responsibility to make sure that all feedback is warm and fuzzy.  It's not pre-K, and not everybody loves you, and that's just life.  People need to be socialized just like pets do, and it's an ongoing learning experience for everybody involved.  Not everybody is friends with everybody else, and of those that they ARE friends with, there are different levels of friendship and closeness.  High school is THE time when that plays out.  The days of "Mommy, she's mean to me" are long gone by high school, or they should be.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE #87,#173**
Post by: Lynn2000 on March 28, 2013, 03:29:34 PM
As for the senior ditch day story, I think that being left behind bc no one likes you is the kind of thing that really scars a person. I know it wasn't necessarily anyone's responsibility, but it doesn't seem like appropriate karma for being annoying. It is the kind of thing  someone might post here as an example of how insensitively they were treated in school.

Would it help to mention that Friend's first inclination was to be nice to Girl despite the fact that when, a year earlier, Girl heard Friend's father had died, she said "I wish my father were dead; I pray for that every night" (say this to a guy whose beloved father had just died unexpectedly?).  I didn't mention it because I didn't think it germane to the story, but Girl wasn't just annoying -- she was really obnoxious.  I was friends with a lot of people who weren't great (Friend, himself, could be pretty over-the-top), but Girl went far beyond that.

I don't think I agree - I think there should be a penalty for being an annoying person, much less for being a obnoxious person.  Behavior has consequences.    Not being friends with someone has consequences.  We all learn to moderate our behavior because of the results prior behavior brings us.  Just because somebody doesn't pick up on the annoyed looks coming their way doesn't mean being firmer in expressing annoyance with them is a wrong thing to do.  Being a teen in high school means learning how behavior affects one's life, and it isn't the schoolmates responsibility to make sure that all feedback is warm and fuzzy.  It's not pre-K, and not everybody loves you, and that's just life.  People need to be socialized just like pets do, and it's an ongoing learning experience for everybody involved.  Not everybody is friends with everybody else, and of those that they ARE friends with, there are different levels of friendship and closeness.  High school is THE time when that plays out.  The days of "Mommy, she's mean to me" are long gone by high school, or they should be.

I have to agree. To me, there is a big difference between 1) actively seeking out Susie, who's minding her own business, and calling her names or getting her attention only to dramatically shun her; and 2) drawing a boundary when Susie tries to intrude upon a group's conversation/space/activity, perhaps by ignoring her or refusing to do the favor she wants. I think the former is rude; and the latter is fundamentally not, though of course people can go about it in a rude way.

I feel like the OP's daughter is struggling to do 2) in a polite way, and good for her; I think the update about the text message is heartening. It may still be a painful, embarrassing lesson for AG to learn, but that doesn't mean DD and her friends are being rude. If they want to be nice, that is a different story, and beyond polite.

I think if the girl in the senior ditch day story had wanted a ride, she should have arranged one in advance; in the story it sounds like she just stood around and hoped/assumed someone else would offer her a ride. The risk you take with that is that no one else is willing/able to give you a ride, and you can't go where everyone else is going. Now if someone had promised her a ride, and then they went back on that and left without her--THAT would be rude and cruel, and could leave scars. Being left behind because you failed to make plans in advance is a natural consequence.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE #87,#173**
Post by: LifeOnPluto on March 29, 2013, 12:05:11 AM
Good update. I hope that AG is able to attend the prom and have a good time (perhaps she should try to go with the other girls at the lunch table who aren't in the OP's DD's group?). I'd love to hear an update, after the prom, as to how it all went.

My high school had Balls in Year 11 and Year 12. Rules were fairly flexible. You could buy single tickets (thank goodness! If my school had had the "you can only buy tickets as a pair" rule, I'd have never been able to attend, as I was hopeless when it came to getting a date in high school). You were also allowed to invite people from other years, and from outside the school. The only rule was that you couldn't take a date of the same gender (my school was a private, religious one).

I've also heard weird stories from friends who attended other private high schools in my Home City. If their date went to another private school, they were allowed to attend, no questions asked. However, if their date attended a state high school, they (the date) had to pass an interview with the school principal, to see if they were worthy enough to attend!
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE #87,#173**
Post by: LazyDaisy on March 29, 2013, 10:28:20 AM
The only restriction I remember from HS dances in general is that any potential attendees from another school had to have special permission -- my school wanted to check to make sure that a) they were in fact a high school student and not older than 19 or younger than 14 and b) they didn't have a disciplinary action at their school -- no suspensions or expulsions. For instance if they had been banned from attending their own school's dance, they couldn't come to ours either.

It sounds like letting AG know DD already had a group went well.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE #87,#173**
Post by: CreteGirl on March 29, 2013, 02:26:47 PM
I was proud of the way my son handled his senior prom.  Although he and his buddy would have liked to taken dates to the prom, neither of them had a girlfriend at the time.  So they went as each other's date, and did not worry what anyone thought. They had a blast.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE #87,#173**
Post by: TheaterDiva1 on April 08, 2013, 06:15:41 PM
Is there an update OP?
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE #87,#173**
Post by: Raintree on April 09, 2013, 12:25:59 AM
I had to google "homecoming" and "prom" as, while I have seen such events in Amercian movies, all we ever had was "dances" and "grad." (Grad being a bunch of parties and dances to celebrate graduation." So I guess a prom is a dance, for seniors? I'm Canadian and graduated 30 years ago, so forgive my ignorance.

What I find very interesting in this thread is the notion of going to the prom in groups, and not mixing with other groups. I guess it's the norm in some regions, but it just strikes me as odd. Our whole class of 150 mixed and mingled together at the grad celebrations. Of course, you had your circles of friends, but the idea of being in set groupings that don't mix with other groups, by design, seems pretty antisocial to me. Once you're out in the real world, it's kind of frowned upon to never step outside of your own narrow little circle, so I am not sure why it would be encouraged in high school.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not really criticizing, but I just find it interesting that it would be the norm somewhere else. I would definitely encourage the OP's daughter to find a way not to be stalked and pestered by someone she doesn't like, on her special day. It's very difficult to get away from such people without feeling like a big meanie.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE #87,#173**
Post by: kareng57 on April 09, 2013, 12:39:33 AM
I had to google "homecoming" and "prom" as, while I have seen such events in Amercian movies, all we ever had was "dances" and "grad." (Grad being a bunch of parties and dances to celebrate graduation." So I guess a prom is a dance, for seniors? I'm Canadian and graduated 30 years ago, so forgive my ignorance.

What I find very interesting in this thread is the notion of going to the prom in groups, and not mixing with other groups. I guess it's the norm in some regions, but it just strikes me as odd. Our whole class of 150 mixed and mingled together at the grad celebrations. Of course, you had your circles of friends, but the idea of being in set groupings that don't mix with other groups, by design, seems pretty antisocial to me. Once you're out in the real world, it's kind of frowned upon to never step outside of your own narrow little circle, so I am not sure why it would be encouraged in high school.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not really criticizing, but I just find it interesting that it would be the norm somewhere else. I would definitely encourage the OP's daughter to find a way not to be stalked and pestered by someone she doesn't like, on her special day. It's very difficult to get away from such people without feeling like a big meanie.


I'm also Canadian, but I've observed that many parents of girls (I had boys) refer to the graduation dinner/dance as "prom".  This seems to be fairly recent.  However for Grade 10 and 11 students - there's really no such thing as "junior prom".
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE #87,#173**
Post by: jedikaiti on April 09, 2013, 01:36:37 AM
Proms come in a few varieties... my school had 2, one in spring (for sophomores, juniors & seniors) and one in the winter, for juniors and seniors only. Homecoming I know squat about, as my school didn't really have one (I think it has something to do with football, and I went to a girls' school) and I wasn't asked to homecoming at any other school.

For my school, it was a little different, as it was a small school (my graduating class was 40 girls), so yea, you'd go in a group with your friends and their dates, but you might mingle a little more with everyone else.

I spent a semester at a much larger public school. I skipped prom, but that was a school where each graduating class was 150+ students. It was hard to KNOW everyone by more than a passing glance. (I'm trying to find out how that compares to the national average, but everything I am finding is giving class sizes as X students per 1 teacher (or how many per meeting, rather than the whole graduating class).) At any rate, if they have a prom for just juniors and seniors, figure about 300 people attending - a good chunk with dates from the same school, some skip entirely, some without dates, and some with dates from other schools. Or, way too many to spend any meaningful time with everybody, and a lot of them you don't know in the first place. So it's really not that people are being deliberately exclusive most of the time, it's just a HUGE number of people, and generally considered a night to remember with your friends.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE #87,#173**
Post by: Danika on April 09, 2013, 01:44:42 AM
So I guess a prom is a dance, for seniors?

Different high schools have different traditions but this is how it worked in my high school. I went to a very large public school and there were 2000 students and 4 grades (9, 10, 11, 12). There was a homecoming dance every fall, usually in October, that took place on the Saturday night of homecoming weekend. That was the weekend that most graduates were supposed to come back and cheer their football team and other sports, but very few did. This dance took place in the school cafeteria. You wore cocktail attire and dates usually went out to dinner tete-a-tete (in couples, not groups) before the dance. Students from all grades were allowed to attend. They could also bring a date from another school if they didn't want to go with someone from our school.

Prom was also a dance, generally in mid-May. But it was fancier. The attire was formal and it did not take place on the school grounds. A ballroom, event center, museum or country club was rented and decorated. I have heard that other schools have a separate Junior prom and Senior prom. At our school, it was one prom. You could be a Junior (grade 11) or Senior (grade 12). Juniors purchased tickets and Seniors got in free. In this way, it was said that the Juniors were hosting. If you invited someone, they could be just about any age and attend any school. At my school, it was still mostly couples. I didn't know people who went in groups, although, you didn't have to go with someone you were romantically involved with. I went with a different male friend each of my two prom years.

It was somewhat of a tradition to lose your virginity to your prom date and so some parents would organize something called "After Prom" which was a lot of fun and very informal. This took place after the prom dance. This was to encourage couples to go have fun at After Prom and not play scrabble at a motel, friend's house with parents who weren't around, or most often a large Cadillac. After Prom had bounce houses, fake casino games, decorations, music, etc.

For some students the night went like: 1) go to fancy restaurant with your date and maybe another couple or two, 2) drive a parent's car to Prom and dance 3) change out of your ball gown or tux into blue jeans and go to after prom 4) by then the sun was coming up and go have breakfast and then 5) head to your own homes.

For other students, the night went like: 1) go to fancy restaurant with your date, 2) drive in a rented limousine to prom and dance 3) leave early and find someplace to play scrabble 4) head to your own home and tell your parents that you went to after prom and had breakfast.

Our high school was very cliquish. The social groups didn't tend to mingle. People from various groups tended to completely ignore people from other social groups. I don't even think they said "excuse me" if they needed to pass each other in the hallway or bathroom.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE #87,#173**
Post by: Sophia on April 09, 2013, 08:13:35 AM
At my school, prom was for couples.  There wasn't any rules about the tickets, and I seem to remember some people going in groups.  It was a large school and just shy of 1000 kids that graduated in my class.  If you are trying to wrap your mind around the not-socializing thing, think of prom as Big_Fancy_Expensive_Date.  Cling-On inserting herself at the prom, is like someone setting themselves down at your table in a restaurant, and in this case, the restaurant is Chez Expensive. 
Even the few people that went in a group, it was a group date like a bunch of friends going to a movie together.  You might say Hi to people you recognize, but otherwise you talk to the people on your 'date'. 

I don't know if they still do this, but back in my day you registered your dress.  As you walked into the store they asked which prom.  They kept records of which dresses would be worn at which proms.  They would not sell two identical dresses to the same prom.  I mention this as another explanation that prom isn't just a dance or party.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE #87,#173**
Post by: #borecore on April 09, 2013, 08:55:10 AM
Our prom was a stupidly huge deal. We had a fundraiser where your class had its turn to sell candy -- at the end of 3 weeks, you had to turn in the money whether it sold or not. Your profit went toward defraying the cost of your future prom ticket. Each grade had a different sales period so there was no overlap (and a constant candy supply!). I only sold one year before I decided that I was a terrible salesperson and probably wouldn't have a prom date anyway ("Oh, woe is me!" says pubescent Jmarvellous.) There were also weekly pizza fundraisers for that year's seniors.

Tickets were, as can be surmised, pretty expensive. My boyfriend did not want to go, but another boy asked me. I think, with our combined paltry fundraising, he still paid over $150 for two tickets. He also got us linked to a "group" and a limo -- six other couples, mostly in relationships. We went to a fancy dinner in our gowns and tuxes and had a very tame coed slumber party and breakfast at friends' homes. Many of my girlfriends went in groups of all or mostly women; almost all of the 600+ attendees (class of 600) went in a group of some sort. It was in a hotel ballroom with fancy ice sculptures and finger food, but it was really just a bunch of goofy kids goofing off in their fanciest.

The other big school events were homecoming (all ages, semiformal), Sadie Hawkins (all ages, girls ask guys and couples dress the same), and Project Graduation (seniors and some dates, the night of graduation, all attendees wear identical T-shirts, lots of door prizes, held at a games place overnight).
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE #87,#173**
Post by: ettiquit on April 09, 2013, 09:09:20 AM
Add mine to that list.  No date, no ticket, no prom.  Very conservative town.

I was forbidden to attend any school dance. It was considered "worldly" and sinful. Very, very conservative parents.  :P

But then a new kid showed up and got the whole town dancing?   ;D
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE #87,#173**
Post by: Calistoga on April 09, 2013, 09:23:47 AM
My senior class had 23 students in it...if we'd had a prom JUST for seniors, tickets would have been like 300 dollars a piece.

Ours was a high school prom. All ages bought tickets- seniors got to buy them first, then they went on sale to everyone else. Different local every year.

Our only other dances were homecoming and some kind of winter semi-formal.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE #87,#173**
Post by: Lorelei_Evil on April 09, 2013, 09:30:12 AM
Add mine to that list.  No date, no ticket, no prom.  Very conservative town.

I was forbidden to attend any school dance. It was considered "worldly" and sinful. Very, very conservative parents.  :P

But then a new kid showed up and got the whole town dancing?   ;D

Close!  Horribly stupid movie, but close!   :D
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE #87,#173**
Post by: rose red on April 09, 2013, 09:42:49 AM
I don't know if they still do this, but back in my day you registered your dress.  As you walked into the store they asked which prom.  They kept records of which dresses would be worn at which proms.  They would not sell two identical dresses to the same prom.  I mention this as another explanation that prom isn't just a dance or party.

When I went to school, the girls who took sewing classes made their own unique prom dresses.  By the time they took the senior year advance class, they were able to make such gorgeous dresses.  As it got closer to prom, there were so many dressmaker dummies around the Home Ec room and the rest of us were able to see the progression of the dresses.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE #87,#173**
Post by: jaxsue on April 09, 2013, 09:52:33 AM
Add mine to that list.  No date, no ticket, no prom.  Very conservative town.

I was forbidden to attend any school dance. It was considered "worldly" and sinful. Very, very conservative parents.  :P

But then a new kid showed up and got the whole town dancing?   ;D

How'd you know?  :)
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE #87,#173**
Post by: KarenK on April 09, 2013, 11:45:51 AM
Add mine to that list.  No date, no ticket, no prom.  Very conservative town.

I was forbidden to attend any school dance. It was considered "worldly" and sinful. Very, very conservative parents.  :P

But then a new kid showed up and got the whole town dancing?   ;D

Close!  Horribly stupid movie, but close!   :D

I hope you're talking about the recent terrible remake and not the original!
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE #87,#173**
Post by: Betelnut on April 09, 2013, 11:46:53 AM
Definitions as I know them:

Prom is the end-of-the year dance, usually for seniors and juniors.  For seniors, it is one of the "last hurrahs" before graduation so it is a big deal.  Prom is usually very expensive to go to as it is usually held off campus.


Homecoming is associated with a homecoming football game.  People who graduated from the school "come home" to see the game, etc.  There is usually a dance but all grade levels go and it is much less formal than the prom.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE #87,#173**
Post by: Lorelei_Evil on April 09, 2013, 12:02:20 PM
Add mine to that list.  No date, no ticket, no prom.  Very conservative town.

I was forbidden to attend any school dance. It was considered "worldly" and sinful. Very, very conservative parents.  :P

But then a new kid showed up and got the whole town dancing?   ;D


Close!  Horribly stupid movie, but close!   :D

I hope you're talking about the recent terrible remake and not the original!


Didn't like the original either, haven't seen the remake.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE #87,#173**
Post by: WillyNilly on April 09, 2013, 01:48:08 PM
My senior class was 998 students. Our prom was the only dance the school offered, ever, and only seniors could buy tickets (but each senior could buy 1 or 2, and they could bring anyone they wanted). It probably ended up being about 1,000-1,200 people at the prom. Of course people sectioned off into their friend groups - there is no way to socialize with 1,000 people.

Really it wasn't so different then the lunch room or the front of the school before and after school - everyone was there, sure people bounced from group to group a bit, but for the most part people hung out with their friends, whether their 'group' was 3 close friends or two dozen loose friends.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE #87,#173**
Post by: StuffedGrapeLeaves on April 09, 2013, 02:07:59 PM
My senior class was around 500 people, and the prom was the big dance for seniors.  Only seniors can buy tickets, but they can bring guests who are not seniors.  The prom itself ended up being about 700-800 people.  For the most part people stick to loose groups - the ones they normally socialize it.  The prom is normally a fancier dance at a hotel.

We also had a homecoming dance and a winter formal that are both open to all grades.  The homecoming dance was held at the school gym and people don't really get dressed up other than nicer casual clothes.  The winter formal was more dressed up, but it was also just at the school gym. 
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE #87,#173**
Post by: Mannerless on April 09, 2013, 03:09:41 PM
My high school had separate Junior and Senior Proms with the Junior Prom being a dinner dance and the Senior Prom being more of a dance at a swanky hotel ballroom.

For reasons I never questions, the tickets were called "bids."  We did not have Google in the mid 80s.  And even now, I can't tell why?

Also why do people talk about going to "prom" as opposed to "the prom?"  I think in my neck of the woods we said "the prom."
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE #87,#173**
Post by: rain on April 09, 2013, 07:30:35 PM
OP - updates?




Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE #87,#173**
Post by: Yvaine on April 09, 2013, 07:47:19 PM
Also why do people talk about going to "prom" as opposed to "the prom?"  I think in my neck of the woods we said "the prom."

I heard both. No idea why.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE #87,#173**
Post by: Black Delphinium on April 09, 2013, 09:02:15 PM
Also why do people talk about going to "prom" as opposed to "the prom?"  I think in my neck of the woods we said "the prom."

I heard both. No idea why.
I'd imagine its regional, like "I had to go to hospital" as opposed to "I had to go to the hospital".
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE #87,#173**
Post by: TootsNYC on April 09, 2013, 09:06:04 PM
Also why do people talk about going to "prom" as opposed to "the prom?"  I think in my neck of the woods we said "the prom."

I heard both. No idea why.
I'd imagine its regional, like "I had to go to hospital" as opposed to "I had to go to the hospital".

I heard both in the same region. I don't think there's any kind of rule--just sometimes people don't want to bother w the extra syllable of "the."

Or perhaps they think of it as nearly a proper noun (which wouldn't get an article in front of it).
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE #87,#173**
Post by: Lady Snowdon on April 09, 2013, 09:20:23 PM
All through this thread, I've been thinking that, to me, it would be worse to find out after the fact that people didn't want to hang out with me but were too "nice" to say so.  If you know a particular group of people doesn't want to include you (and there are so many reasons why they wouldn't), then you can go look for another group to attach to.  If you don't know that people don't want you around, and you start to build up the idea that you belong in this group, that these are good friends of yours, etc, and then you find out later that nobody was really comfortable with you being around, and no one said anything, that's just devastating. 

When it happened to me, it really made me question whether I was "worthy" of being anyone's friend at all.  I still have problems with this tendency, and it's been a good 12-15 years since the incident that caused me to doubt myself initially. 

I think the OP's DD did a good thing in letting AG know before prom that she wasn't part of the group, and it was done in a very nice way - just a statement of facts, with no judgement implied. 
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE #87,#173**
Post by: kherbert05 on April 09, 2013, 09:59:31 PM
I think there is a big difference between a Dance with 150 people and a dance with 500 + people. The 500+ people dance is going to have smaller groups with in the group because of the size. There are people I graduated with (550 - 600 people in my class), who I did not know. My school was a 5A school, so we had more than 2100 people in our school.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE #87,#173**
Post by: baglady on April 09, 2013, 10:34:30 PM
I had to google "homecoming" and "prom" as, while I have seen such events in Amercian movies, all we ever had was "dances" and "grad." (Grad being a bunch of parties and dances to celebrate graduation." So I guess a prom is a dance, for seniors? I'm Canadian and graduated 30 years ago, so forgive my ignorance.

What I find very interesting in this thread is the notion of going to the prom in groups, and not mixing with other groups. I guess it's the norm in some regions, but it just strikes me as odd. Our whole class of 150 mixed and mingled together at the grad celebrations. Of course, you had your circles of friends, but the idea of being in set groupings that don't mix with other groups, by design, seems pretty antisocial to me. Once you're out in the real world, it's kind of frowned upon to never step outside of your own narrow little circle, so I am not sure why it would be encouraged in high school.

Traditionally the prom is a couples event, and while a couple will certainly socialize with other people at the prom, they are expected to mainly focus on each other. I can see the same thing happening when it's a group instead of a couple -- they will socialize outside the group but the bulk of their socializing will be within it. It isn't "by design" or encouraged; it just happens.

I'm class of 1976 and the idea of going to the prom stag or in a group was unheard of in my day. You went with a date or you didn't go at all. I envy the youngsters who have these other options.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE #87,#173**
Post by: joraemi on April 10, 2013, 08:02:48 AM
Op here.   :)

To clarify on the "group" thing.  The group is sort of your "home base" so to speak.  They are the kids you are going to organize transportation with, sit with at dinner, and most likely spend the majority of your time with over the course of the evening.  However, everyone in the group still mingles and spends time with everyone else (and all the other groups!) at the dance/afterprom. Almost like a secondary "date" for those going with a date, and the group functions as the "date" for those kids techinically going "alone".

Did that make sense *at all*?  LOL

Anyway - as to the original situation - Prom isn't until the end of May, so I don't have anything to report in terms of AG's behavior at the dance.  I do know that a couple of days after the "clarifying text" was sent I checked in with DD and she said AG was acting perfectly normal at school, at the lunch table, etc. and there didn't seem to be a problem with hurt feelings or anything.  I haven't heard any rumblings about it since then, but I'll check in with DD so we can have accurate info!

Side note - we are going for a final fitting of DD's dress today. :)
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE**
Post by: workingmum on April 16, 2013, 07:10:48 AM
Personally, I think the OP's daughter would have fonder memories of The Prom if she didn't carry with her the memory of how she and her friends actively worked to exclude one poor girl who was desperate to find a group to hang with.  That's just kind of how I feel about it.  The years go by and I know that I, personally, have regrets about how I treated some people when I was that age.  I wish I didn't have to live with that.

I think she would have fonder memories of the prom if she didn't have memories of one girl who couldn't be bothered with her any other day of the week and only used OP's daughter when it was convenient for her turning the entire event to be about her.

It really goes both ways and I don't like the insinuation that if the OP's daughter doesn't roll over and turn into a doormat she is not a good or nice person.

I agree with this! I get that it's the "Nice" thing to do to include AG, but why should OP's DD have to sacrifice her enjoyment of her big night? AG has already proved herself to be be not such a nice person by trying to copy off DD and by ignoring what DD wanted to do at Homecoming. It's as much DD's prom as AG's. Why should AG's happiness be prioritised over DD'S?
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE #87,#173**
Post by: workingmum on April 16, 2013, 08:19:17 AM
Add mine to that list.  No date, no ticket, no prom.  Very conservative town.

I was forbidden to attend any school dance. It was considered "worldly" and sinful. Very, very conservative parents.  :P

But then a new kid showed up and got the whole town dancing?   ;D

Close!  Horribly stupid movie, but close!   :D

Nooooooo!!!!!! Say it isn't so!

Ok - so it wasn't the most logical movie ever.. but dingdangity! It's a classic!
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE #87,#173**
Post by: Piratelvr1121 on April 16, 2013, 09:46:00 AM
I cringe to remember how I was when prom was approaching.  I wasn't allowed to go alone, though honestly I had no problems at all doing so.  I had to have a date. Not just a group, but a date.  By the way, this was '97, but these were my mother's rules, not told to me until about 2 weeks prior to the dance when I said "Well I don't have a date, but I don't care, I'll go by myself." thinking  "Guys get to go stag and no one cares, so I'll go stag!"

Now as a mother I can understand not wanting one's daughter to go alone to the prom for safety reasons, but I would say "Oh get some friends together to go with you!" But no, I had to have a date, and I got embarrassingly desperate, only to not end up going at all.  :-[
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE #87,#173**
Post by: Lorelei_Evil on April 16, 2013, 09:53:46 AM
I never even bothered to tell my mother when it was, because I knew she'd throw a FIT that I didn't have a boyfriend.
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE #87,#173**
Post by: Yvaine on April 16, 2013, 10:13:05 AM
Also why do people talk about going to "prom" as opposed to "the prom?"  I think in my neck of the woods we said "the prom."

I heard both. No idea why.
I'd imagine its regional, like "I had to go to hospital" as opposed to "I had to go to the hospital".

I heard both in the same region. I don't think there's any kind of rule--just sometimes people don't want to bother w the extra syllable of "the."

Or perhaps they think of it as nearly a proper noun (which wouldn't get an article in front of it).

Proper noun is probably hitting the nail on the head. That and parallelism with Homecoming, which no one calls "the Homecoming."
Title: Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE #87,#173**
Post by: rain on June 09, 2013, 06:26:25 PM
final update?


(hope all went well)