Etiquette Hell

General Etiquette => Life...in general => Topic started by: Jaelle on April 02, 2013, 08:46:52 AM

Title: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: Jaelle on April 02, 2013, 08:46:52 AM
http://www.buffalonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20130402/CITYANDREGION03/130409892/1057 (http://www.buffalonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20130402/CITYANDREGION03/130409892/1057)

I was a bit stunned by this. I wore a strapless wedding dress at my wedding more than 10 years ago. I could assure Miss Manners that I did, indeed, consider the ceremony the important part of the day, but it doesn't seem she would want to hear that.

Thoughts?

(Plus: There are still debutantes these days?)
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: Spring Water on Sundays on April 02, 2013, 09:23:53 AM
I wore a strapless wedding gown almost 9 years ago. It was lovely, elegant, and flattering to my figure. I felt beautiful in it, my new husband found me beautiful in it - he still occassionally talks about how stunning I looked that day :) - and the church in which I was married had no restrictions on bare shoulders. So, in the opinion of anyone whose opinion mattered, there was nothing improper about my gown, and if anyone else had a problem with it, I'd expect them to keep it to themselves. :)
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: MandiC76 on April 02, 2013, 09:28:04 AM
I wore a strapless gown at my wedding a year and a half ago. It was the dress that flattered my plus-sized body the best. Honestly, though, I wouldn't be surprised if many brides who wear strapless gowns wear them only because there are very few options with straps, and even fewer that actually cover the shoulders. I would've preferred something with straps, myself, but for my budget, I just couldn't find anything with straps/sleeves that actually looked good on me.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: rigs32 on April 02, 2013, 09:32:15 AM
I wonder if she would have the same opinion of women who purchase non-traditional wedding gowns to be worn for their wedding - whether not white or a simpler style.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: TootsNYC on April 02, 2013, 09:33:28 AM
I think strapless dresses are flattering even on heavy women (who probably think they're too fat for them).

Because there isn't any fabric to stretch in awkward ways, etc. As MandiC76's experience demonstrated--finding a dress w/ straps or sleeves that fits well can be really difficult. Especially if you're (like me) a little lumpy--because lumps form in different places on everybody. So when you move your arms, the fabric pulls in different places. And it's hard to alter shoulder seams, armholes, etc.

(actually, strapless dresses will always be in style, but there is actually a move to dresses w/ sleeves)
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: WillyNilly on April 02, 2013, 09:33:38 AM
I wore a red strapless gown. And got married in a totally secular outdoor wedding. And it was by far the most formal, opposite of "easy to party in" dress I ever have, or I imagine ever again, will wear. It absolutely was more about the formality and importance of the occasion then about the party afterwards.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: lady_disdain on April 02, 2013, 09:37:00 AM
That was a very judgmental post. A strapless wedding dress doesn't scream "party" to me nor implies that the bride is thinking of things other than her wedding. Then again, she also recently chided a different bride for noticing that one of her guests wore a baseball cap during her ceremony (http://www.buffalonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20130310/CITYANDREGION03/130319979/1057)
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: rose red on April 02, 2013, 09:38:17 AM
And answers like this is why when people quote Miss Manners as the Final Word!!!, I think about the answer and real life before accepting it blindly.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: 25wishes on April 02, 2013, 09:41:03 AM
I remember a while back she intimated that strapless gowns were for when you were trying to attract a mate, and you should be a bit more modest once you had found one. If you wouldn't wear a tube top in church, aren't you showing as much in a strapless gown?

I tend to agree as I am rather old-fashioned. I don't think strapless gowns look good on all figure types, and they have so much, what, boning? that you get that effect of the dress moving stiffly in one way while your body moves the other.

 I am old enough to remember gowns not only with straps but sleeves, and very pretty sleeves they were too, although  I dislike puffy confections like Diana's.

However, it is all about fashion, and for many years now fashion has dictated strapless, I believe it dates from John Kennedy Jr's wedding, when his bride wore a simple strapless gown and it became popular.

As for me, I got married in a wool skirt and sweater in front of a JP.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: Firecat on April 02, 2013, 09:41:52 AM
I'll admit, I don't like strapless. I would never condemn someone for wearing a strapless gown, it's just not a look I like for myself - strictly a matter of personal taste.

But I do have to wonder what Miss Manners would have thought of my Renaissance costume wedding...I got married in shades of green, for one thing (I don't, in my own opinion, look good in white - as a pale-skinned blonde, I think it makes me look even paler, and not in an elegant way). And Renaissance brides didn't necessarily wear white, they wore whatever their best dress was at the time.

Anyway, I wonder if Miss Manners just isn't making sufficient allowance for the dominance of strapless in wedding fashion over the last decade or so, to the point where for awhile it was hard to find anything that wasn't strapless. Not everyone can afford to customize a dress or to have one made, so if strapless was all that was available, I'm sure a lot of brides who would have preferred otherwise ended up in strapless gowns anyway.

Edited to add that I kind of hope that the wedding of the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge will help to end the overwhelming dominance of strapless gowns. I thought she looked lovely, and very classy. I don't see anything "wrong" with strapless gowns per se, I'm just a fan of there being more choices than just strapless.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: Spring Water on Sundays on April 02, 2013, 09:44:04 AM
That was a very judgmental post. A strapless wedding dress doesn't scream "party" to me nor implies that the bride is thinking of things other than her wedding. Then again, she also recently chided a different bride for noticing that one of her guests wore a baseball cap during her ceremony (http://www.buffalonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20130310/CITYANDREGION03/130319979/1057)

 ::) So basically, any bride who has the super human powers of sight and perception is not taking her wedding ceremony seriously.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: Margo on April 02, 2013, 09:44:55 AM
I think Miss Manners is way off base with this one. Also illogical. By her criteria, anyone who takes any trouble over their appearance for their wedding is failing to take it seriously - if you pick a dress which you look good in you are not taking the ceremony seriously enough? (Also, does that mean that if I wear a dress with straps/sleeves to a party I'm being rude to the host as I'm not seeing the party as the main event?)

I'm aware that there are *some* individual places of worship / specific congregations or ministers who would consider a strapless gown inappropriate, and in those instances I think it is respectful for the bride to stick to the dress-code of that specific place/congregation, but it's very narrow minded to assume that just because you/your church/synagogue/minister does things one way, that that is the only correct way.

(Two of my cousins are very religious - both very involved with their respective churches, both met their husband's through the church, both close friends with their respective minister and priest - both seeing the religious ceremony as by far the most important and significant part of the wedding... both wore strapless gowns. I find it quite offensive to suggest that what you wear affects, or is seen as an indicator of how seriously you take  a ceremony. I wonder whether Miss Manners is equally scathing about Groom who wear Morning Dress rather than a simple suit. After all, that's all about how you look, too)
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: Yvaine on April 02, 2013, 09:49:52 AM
I remember a while back she intimated that strapless gowns were for when you were trying to attract a mate, and you should be a bit more modest once you had found one. If you wouldn't wear a tube top in church, aren't you showing as much in a strapless gown?

I tend to agree as I am rather old-fashioned. I don't think strapless gowns look good on all figure types, and they have so much, what, boning? that you get that effect of the dress moving stiffly in one way while your body moves the other.

 I am old enough to remember gowns not only with straps but sleeves, and very pretty sleeves they were too, although  I dislike puffy confections like Diana's.

However, it is all about fashion, and for many years now fashion has dictated strapless, I believe it dates from John Kennedy Jr's wedding, when his bride wore a simple strapless gown and it became popular.

As for me, I got married in a wool skirt and sweater in front of a JP.

Carolyn Bessette had more of a slip dress, with straps. I remember those dresses being everywhere for a few years, and then the strapless trend came later.

I agree with PPs that it can be difficult to find anything else when a certain thing is in fashion.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: lady_disdain on April 02, 2013, 09:54:01 AM
That was a very judgmental post. A strapless wedding dress doesn't scream "party" to me nor implies that the bride is thinking of things other than her wedding. Then again, she also recently chided a different bride for noticing that one of her guests wore a baseball cap during her ceremony (http://www.buffalonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20130310/CITYANDREGION03/130319979/1057)

 ::) So basically, any bride who has the super human powers of sight and perception is not taking her wedding ceremony seriously.

A modest bride would have walked down the aisle looking at the floor, reciting prayers. :-D Most other brides would be looking around, smiling at friends and family and noticed a baseball cap. Or peeked through the crack of the door or screen while people were being seated.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: WillyNilly on April 02, 2013, 10:03:56 AM
That was a very judgmental post. A strapless wedding dress doesn't scream "party" to me nor implies that the bride is thinking of things other than her wedding. Then again, she also recently chided a different bride for noticing that one of her guests wore a baseball cap during her ceremony (http://www.buffalonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20130310/CITYANDREGION03/130319979/1057)

 ::) So basically, any bride who has the super human powers of sight and perception is not taking her wedding ceremony seriously.

A modest bride would have walked down the aisle looking at the floor, reciting prayers. :-D Most other brides would be looking around, smiling at friends and family and noticed a baseball cap. Or peeked through the crack of the door or screen while people were being seated.

There is no indication that LW was a bride. It very well could have been written by a groom. And grooms tend to start off standing at the front of their ceremony, looking out among their guests until the bride makes her entrance.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: Bashful on April 02, 2013, 10:07:37 AM
I wore a strapless wedding gown too. Given my body shape, straps were simply unflattering and gowns with sleeves made me look like a girl approaching her First Communion.

Are straps the only requirement for being modest? I'm thinking about something like the gorgeus green dress Keira Knightely wore in Atonement: would that be proper? After all it HAS straps!
To me modesty comes from a good match of clothes and body shape.

Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: 25wishes on April 02, 2013, 10:10:07 AM
Just a note, if you are trying to find a NON strapless wedding gown, Google Mormon wedding gowns. They have plenty of coverage.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: Bexx27 on April 02, 2013, 10:19:55 AM
Her reasoning is just bizarre. She seems to be confusing her personal fashion/modesty preferences with actual etiquette. Besides, I know from personal experience how hard it is to find a wedding dress that isn't strapless.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: Yvaine on April 02, 2013, 10:23:49 AM
Her reasoning is just bizarre. She seems to be confusing her personal fashion/modesty preferences with actual etiquette. Besides, I know from personal experience how hard it is to find a wedding dress that isn't strapless.

And in ten years, when the style is poofy sleeves or prairie dresses or white PVC spacesuits or whatever, it'll be hard to find anything besides that.  ;D There are offbeat gown sources that a person can find if they're really into the hunt, but for a lot of people, it's going to be the ease and (relative) affordability of something like David's Bridal, which will mostly have whatever's in style.

And Miss Manners is also ignoring the fact that it's not unusual to have a strapless wedding dress but have an extra piece to put on for the church, like a bolero. I lurk at a wedding forum and there are scads of threads about boleros and shrugs and the like.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: Cami on April 02, 2013, 10:27:43 AM
I think Miss Manners is way off base with this one. Also illogical. By her criteria, anyone who takes any trouble over their appearance for their wedding is failing to take it seriously - if you pick a dress which you look good in you are not taking the ceremony seriously enough? (Also, does that mean that if I wear a dress with straps/sleeves to a party I'm being rude to the host as I'm not seeing the party as the main event?)

It's akin to a comment I saw on another message board recently, started by someone who was bemoaning the sloppy way she believes people dress today, even for formal occasions. Someone countered that when she sees a person who looks good and has taken effort with her appearance, she assumes the person is totally focused on themselves and doesn't care about others because if you are dressed nicely, you can't stop and help someone in need because you  might mess up your clothes!

 :o

Apparently, in her mind we should all always dress as if we might need to run into a burning building to save Mother Teresa and dressing up anything more than that is proof of one's failure to take our responsibilities in life seriously enough.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: Yvaine on April 02, 2013, 10:31:13 AM
I think Miss Manners is way off base with this one. Also illogical. By her criteria, anyone who takes any trouble over their appearance for their wedding is failing to take it seriously - if you pick a dress which you look good in you are not taking the ceremony seriously enough? (Also, does that mean that if I wear a dress with straps/sleeves to a party I'm being rude to the host as I'm not seeing the party as the main event?)

It's akin to a comment I saw on another message board recently, started by someone who was bemoaning the sloppy way she believes people dress today, even for formal occasions. Someone countered that when she sees a person who looks good and has taken effort with her appearance, she assumes the person is totally focused on themselves and doesn't care about others because if you are dressed nicely, you can't stop and help someone in need because you  might mess up your clothes!

 :o

Apparently, in her mind we should all always dress as if we might need to run into a burning building to save Mother Teresa and dressing up anything more than that is proof of one's failure to take our responsibilities in life seriously enough.

 ::)

And all of that generalizing fails to take into account that huge swaths of people manage to dress in varying levels of formality as it suits the situation: professional clothes to work, casual clothes to hang out on the weekend, formalwear for formal events, beat-up old stuff if you're going to get messy (like painting). (I get the idea some people think we should all be in gloves and a pillbox hat to muck out a barn. LOL) I would say the vast majority of people have enough common sense to vary their dress to suit the event.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: White Lotus on April 02, 2013, 10:32:59 AM
It's been really hard for brides -- or anybody else --  to find anything but strapless in the last ten years or so.  This is a real problem because our Buddhist Temple, like many Jewish Temples and Christian churches, does not allow strapless or even sleeveless attire on anybody (men or women) ever. I also do not want to wear strapless or sleeveless anywhere, anyway, as I don't think they flatter older women.  I couldn't find an evening dress that wasn't sleeveless, and almost all were strapless, anywhere but "modest" clothing websites when I looked recently, and they only had day dresses or bridal gowns, in truth.   I found no useful shawls -- which I dislike -- and no suitable jackets, either.  Not a lot of choices out there, IME.  I ended up in a floor length, long-sleeved ao dai, which is lovely and had the benefit of being relatively cheap, though I was trying to avoid "ethnic." The Indian trousers and tunic (forgetting the name) outfits came in second of available and appropriate choices.
The best dress idea I have seen, though I wasn't nuts about the dress itself, was on American Gypsy Weddings.  It started out with a ginormous skirt, huge train, and a modest, church appropriate (Catholic, I think) neckline and long sleeves in lace.  The lace top came off after the ceremony to reveal a strapless ball gown.  And then -- the whole huge skirt and train deal came off, leaving the bride in what seems to be a standard cocktail dress design -- strapless with a mini-skirt.  Brilliant! 
If your ceremony venue allows it and you want to wear strapless, go for it. But I don't think what is really a ball gown is a good choice for a wedding dress, either. I just want more choices available for us all.  And yes, there are still balls, and still debutantes.  A "Quince" is a kind if debutante party, for example, and so is a "sweet 16."  They introduce the girl to adult society at her first "grown up" party, and announce that she is now considered, for social purposes, an adult.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: Sterling on April 02, 2013, 10:35:34 AM
That was a really judgmental post by Miss Manners.  My dress was strapless and held at a hotel not a church.  I don't think I was "waiting" for the party more that being respectful for the wedding.  I also disliked the way she referred to dresses for debutante and wedding events as "costumes" and said women shouldn't expect their parents to purchase both.

These are 2 separate rites of passage that are important not just to the girls but to the parents as well.  In my circle as a teen the debs were mostly pushed by their parents to even participate and many of us got married later and bought our own dresses.  The whole post was snotty.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: artk2002 on April 02, 2013, 10:38:35 AM
That was a very judgmental post. A strapless wedding dress doesn't scream "party" to me nor implies that the bride is thinking of things other than her wedding. Then again, she also recently chided a different bride for noticing that one of her guests wore a baseball cap during her ceremony (http://www.buffalonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20130310/CITYANDREGION03/130319979/1057)

 ::) So basically, any bride who has the super human powers of sight and perception is not taking her wedding ceremony seriously.

I didn't read that particular column, but in etiquette, there's a difference between "seeing" and "noticing." There's also a difference between "smelling" and "noticing." If someone passes gas, in polite company we treat it as if it didn't happen. We may smell it or hear it, but we don't "notice" it. This is referred to as the "polite fiction." Miss Manners is applying the same principal to that bride. Yes, someone did something gauche at the wedding, which everyone "saw." But nobody should have "noticed" it (i.e. commented on it.)

As far as the original post, more and more I think that Miss Manners is substituting her personal taste for etiquette. That's a common failing among experts in any topic. She's attributing something overtly sexual to bare shoulders. A few decades ago, that might have been true, but it's far less true today. What she attributes to bare shoulders, we might attribute to side-slit-to-the-armpit or a micro-mini skirt with lucite platforms. A couple of generations before Miss Manners and we'd be saying the same thing about an exposed ankle.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: Spring Water on Sundays on April 02, 2013, 10:42:02 AM
And answers like this is why when people quote Miss Manners as the Final Word!!!, I think about the answer and real life before accepting it blindly.

Yep. I can also see Miss Manners' rationale against choosing a fashionable style of gown being used to argue against the totally normal traditions of getting your hair and make-up professionally done instead of going natural, or choosing an elaborate bouquet from a florist when you could have just picked wild flowers at the park. What is her point, exactly?
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: violinp on April 02, 2013, 10:47:34 AM
POD to all the posters who said that this is about personal taste, not true etiquette. I would never wear something that didn't have sleeves (or wear a sweater over a sleeveless/strapless dress), because my...ahem...upper undergarments would be so obviously showing that it would be indecent. However, that does not mean that strapless dresses are themselves indecent.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: cattlekid on April 02, 2013, 11:01:43 AM
Our church has very strict requirements on women's dress in church.  All shoulders must be covered (universal requirement) and some churches also require that women have their heads covered (at the discretion of the priest).  Also, our church required that bridesmaids dresses not be black. 

It was a project finding a wedding dress that covered my shoulders but didn't have long sleeves (we got married Labor Day weekend and I didn't want to melt into a lace puddle).  I finally found my dress at a bridal second-hand store.  The bonus was that the price was very reasonable, even accounting for the required alterations.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: Carotte on April 02, 2013, 11:05:02 AM
It's been long gone the day in which showing an ankle was bad taste, and showing your arms as not been banned as far as I know.

I have somewhere a picture of a lovely strapless wedding dress (that I think was posted by someone here), that does not show any cleavage. So the only difference between this one and the same model with straps would be something like one or two inch² of fabric. I fail to see how that would make such a difference.
Not all strapless dresses are revealing, unless you consider shoulders and arms to be vulgar..*

*baring your religion or wedding place if they have restrictions.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: RebeccainGA on April 02, 2013, 11:14:03 AM
I think the point was, in a *religious* wedding ceremony, at a church, in many (I'd venture most) cultures and denominations, showing that much skin isn't appropriate. Now if you're having a wedding elsewhere (outdoors, at home, at a hall or other space) then the issue isn't the point. The issue of strapless is *in church*. I wouldn't wear a strapless dress by choice anywhere, but the absolute last place I'd wear one would be at a house of worship - mine, or someone else's. Just like I wouldn't wear flip flops, or ratty cutoffs, or anything else that would be inappropriate (uncovered hair in some places, pants in others).

I don't think she's looking at fashion. I think she's looking at respect, which is the heart of manners.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: Sophia on April 02, 2013, 11:14:12 AM
I think the real reason for strapless gowns is that they are easier on the manufacturer and have zero to do with what women want or what they look good in.  They require less altering because if you have a strapless gown with corset ties, you just to have to get approximately the right size.

That is why I think I disagree with the column, although I agree with her grumpiness on the topic.  But, if that is all that is available, then no motives can be applied to choosing the one option. 

When i first started the wedding planning I went to the Dallas Bridal show.  They had an area in the middle that was boxed in on three sides with racks of bridal dresses.  Each side was at least 40 feet long.  I asked, "Do you have a dress that isn't strapless or halter?"  Answer, "No". 
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: Spring Water on Sundays on April 02, 2013, 11:20:09 AM
That was a very judgmental post. A strapless wedding dress doesn't scream "party" to me nor implies that the bride is thinking of things other than her wedding. Then again, she also recently chided a different bride for noticing that one of her guests wore a baseball cap during her ceremony (http://www.buffalonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20130310/CITYANDREGION03/130319979/1057)

 ::) So basically, any bride who has the super human powers of sight and perception is not taking her wedding ceremony seriously.

I didn't read that particular column, but in etiquette, there's a difference between "seeing" and "noticing." There's also a difference between "smelling" and "noticing." If someone passes gas, in polite company we treat it as if it didn't happen. We may smell it or hear it, but we don't "notice" it. This is referred to as the "polite fiction." Miss Manners is applying the same principal to that bride. Yes, someone did something gauche at the wedding, which everyone "saw." But nobody should have "noticed" it (i.e. commented on it.)

As far as the original post, more and more I think that Miss Manners is substituting her personal taste for etiquette. That's a common failing among experts in any topic. She's attributing something overtly sexual to bare shoulders. A few decades ago, that might have been true, but it's far less true today. What she attributes to bare shoulders, we might attribute to side-slit-to-the-armpit or a micro-mini skirt with lucite platforms. A couple of generations before Miss Manners and we'd be saying the same thing about an exposed ankle.

Re: your first point. I agree, some things are better left "unnoticed" if we are going to have any semblance of a polite society. The point that nothing *should* be said to the person wearing the inappropriate hat (and in this case, it doesn't sound like anything was said) was overshadowed by Miss Manners' bizarre rebuke that if the bride (or groom, it's not really clear) had been appropriately immersed in the super seriousness of the ceremony, s/he shouldn't have been aware of anything other than the loving gaze of her/his intended and the solemn words of the officiant. To me anyway, Miss Manners' wording sounded like she was scolding the bride/groom for being bothered by the baseball cap in the first place.

My first point ties into your second point - with which I also agree! Miss Manners seems to have some very conservative and traditional ideas about what constitutes proper wedding behavior/attire/solemnity, and straying from those strict ideals makes one vulnerable to being gleefully labeled improper by snarky etiquette "experts".
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: Rohanna on April 02, 2013, 11:25:14 AM
I had a non-religious outdoor ceremony and wore a strapless gown. I have incredibly broad shoulders, and everything made me look like a white linebacker if it had sleeves. Even my 80 year d
conservative grandma preferred no-sleeves.

Quite frankly I don't care if the bride "prefers the party" anyways-
So what if shed rather celebrate with her nearest and dearest than worry about the formalities? That to me is a personal matter not an etiquette one. It is not a matter or etiquette to dictate whether someone is religious or not, or hung up on "signing a dotted line".

For me the most important part WAS the reception- not because of the food (I barely ate) or the dancing (I rarely do) but because I got to gather together many relatives and friends who are scattered far and wide and involve them in my life. Is that really so bad? I have no god to account to, so the ceremony was only the formal government  part of a commitment my new husband and I felt we'd made years ago. The reception was the first "event" we hosted as husband and wife, and meant a lot to us. I fail to see how fabric covering my upper arms would have changed my feelings in that regard.

If miss manners cannot account for the motives of agnostics, atheists or secular humanists like myself, I am afraid I cannot take her advise from now on, as I do not feel
my lack of organized religion affects my manners.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: turnip on April 02, 2013, 11:27:21 AM
I'm small in just about every dimension.  When I looked at myself in every non-strapless dress available 10 years ago, I just looked overwhelmed by white fabric.   A simple strapless gown was the only one that made me feel like I was wearing the dress, instead of the dress wearing me.

If I was to get judgy ( which I don't, usually, but look what board I'm posting on! ) I'd have more to say about dresses that cling lovingly to the brides every curve - straps or sleeves or no.   However every bride wants to look beautiful, and I don't demand that people follow my personal tastes in order to have proper etiquette.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: Poppea on April 02, 2013, 11:28:26 AM
http://www.buffalonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20130402/CITYANDREGION03/130409892/1057 (http://www.buffalonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20130402/CITYANDREGION03/130409892/1057)

I was a bit stunned by this. I wore a strapless wedding dress at my wedding more than 10 years ago. I could assure Miss Manners that I did, indeed, consider the ceremony the important part of the day, but it doesn't seem she would want to hear that.

Thoughts?

(Plus: There are still debutantes these days?)

When I was married I worn a dress that had sleeves (for the church) but the sleeves could come down for the reception.  Some churches did not allow strapless dresses back then.

Yes there are still debutantes.  There are the traditional debutantes (long time charitable organizations, highly selective), ethnic debutantes (where I live there are Jewish, Greek and African American debutante balls) and fake debutante balls (like modeling schools).  I do not live in the south.   
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: turnip on April 02, 2013, 11:33:05 AM
I had a non-religious outdoor ceremony and wore a strapless gown. I have incredibly broad shoulders, and everything made me look like a white linebacker if it had sleeves. Even my 80 year d
conservative grandma preferred no-sleeves.

Quite frankly I don't care if the bride "prefers the party" anyways-
So what if shed rather celebrate with her nearest and dearest than worry about the formalities? That to me is a personal matter not an etiquette one. It is not a matter or etiquette to dictate whether someone is religious or not, or hung up on "signing a dotted line".

For me the most important part WAS the reception- not because of the food (I barely ate) or the dancing (I rarely do) but because I got to gather together many relatives and friends who are scattered far and wide and involve them in my life. Is that really so bad? I have no god to account to, so the ceremony was only the formal government  part of a commitment my new husband and I felt we'd made years ago. The reception was the first "event" we hosted as husband and wife, and meant a lot to us. I fail to see how fabric covering my upper arms would have changed my feelings in that regard.

If miss manners cannot account for the motives of agnostics, atheists or secular humanists like myself, I am afraid I cannot take her advise from now on, as I do not feel
my lack of organized religion affects my manners.

Just as an alternate non-religious opinion, the ceremony was important to me as were the promises I made to my husband.  I don't see Miss Manners as dismissing non-religious ceremonies, just sticking to the more traditional view that the 'event' is the ceremony - the formal vows made by the bride and groom that joins them as a family - and the reception is the celebration of the event.

Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: TylerBelle on April 02, 2013, 11:34:39 AM
I don't care for strapless dresses much myself and if it was the style I was needing to wear, I'd look for a way to put in wide straps or sleeves. But this is simply me. For one thing, strapless looks like a fidgeting nightmare. I can't imagine being at an event, and moving around, dancing, etc., without having to hitch up the bodice or generally move it back in place many times over the course of wearing the garment. Although they can be really pretty, such as the green one Hilary Swank wore to the Oscars when she won her first award remains a fave celeb gown of mine. 

As for the style to scream 'Let's Party!' as Miss Manners alludes to, and to be modest needs to have something on the shoulders, that's not exactly so. Of course strapless styles can show off more, though there are quite a few non-strapless ones that do as well and give off just as much as party vibe.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: CakeBeret on April 02, 2013, 11:35:39 AM
I was married in a conservative church, and dancing was not allowed at the reception. They didn't give a fig that my dress was strapless. I had little to no cleavage on display and the dress was very flattering to my (overweight) body. Gowns with sleeves either (a) were very unflattering on my arms, (b) were too uncomfortable to move in, or (c) showed an obscene amount of skin/cleavage.

I think MM needs to get over herself and realize that her opinion is not gospel. Her hyper-judgmental attitude is a big turnoff.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: mmswm on April 02, 2013, 11:38:59 AM
http://www.buffalonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20130402/CITYANDREGION03/130409892/1057 (http://www.buffalonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20130402/CITYANDREGION03/130409892/1057)

I was a bit stunned by this. I wore a strapless wedding dress at my wedding more than 10 years ago. I could assure Miss Manners that I did, indeed, consider the ceremony the important part of the day, but it doesn't seem she would want to hear that.

Thoughts?

(Plus: There are still debutantes these days?)

When I was married I worn a dress that had sleeves (for the church) but the sleeves could come down for the reception.  Some churches did not allow strapless dresses back then.

Yes there are still debutantes.  There are the traditional debutantes (long time charitable organizations, highly selective), ethnic debutantes (where I live there are Jewish, Greek and African American debutante balls) and fake debutante balls (like modeling schools).  I do not live in the south.

Several different Hispanic cultures celebrate a girl's Quinceañera, which can be every bit as formal as a wedding, though the major difference is that the dress is typically pale pink, not white.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: Hmmmmm on April 02, 2013, 11:40:39 AM
Her reasoning is just bizarre. She seems to be confusing her personal fashion/modesty preferences with actual etiquette. Besides, I know from personal experience how hard it is to find a wedding dress that isn't strapless.

And in ten years, when the style is poofy sleeves or prairie dresses or white PVC spacesuits or whatever, it'll be hard to find anything besides that.  ;D There are offbeat gown sources that a person can find if they're really into the hunt, but for a lot of people, it's going to be the ease and (relative) affordability of something like David's Bridal, which will mostly have whatever's in style.

And Miss Manners is also ignoring the fact that it's not unusual to have a strapless wedding dress but have an extra piece to put on for the church, like a bolero. I lurk at a wedding forum and there are scads of threads about boleros and shrugs and the like.

No, actually she didn't.  She mentions "temporarily covering".

I'm also one of those who don't believe everyone looks good in strapless.

I'm also of the very much minority who would never feel comfortable attending any type of religous ceremony in a strapless dress.

But I think my opinion and Ms Manners is based on outdated ideas of dress. I don't expect young boys to hit a certain age before wearing long pants nor did I ban my teen daugther from wearing a black dress to a dance (when I was a teen, a black party dress was considered to sophisticated or mature for a teen girl). Men no longer wear a jacket to dinner and ladies no longer restrict strapless gowns to specific types of events. 

But I'll honestly say that I have my finger's crossed that when it's time for DD to pick out a wedding dress, I truly hope the styles have changed and she'll have more options for ones with some type of strap or sleeve (but no 1980's mutton sleeves, please).
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: Spring Water on Sundays on April 02, 2013, 11:41:47 AM
I think the point was, in a *religious* wedding ceremony, at a church, in many (I'd venture most) cultures and denominations, showing that much skin isn't appropriate. Now if you're having a wedding elsewhere (outdoors, at home, at a hall or other space) then the issue isn't the point. The issue of strapless is *in church*. I wouldn't wear a strapless dress by choice anywhere, but the absolute last place I'd wear one would be at a house of worship - mine, or someone else's. Just like I wouldn't wear flip flops, or ratty cutoffs, or anything else that would be inappropriate (uncovered hair in some places, pants in others).

I don't think she's looking at fashion. I think she's looking at respect, which is the heart of manners.

The respectfulness of bare shoulders/uncovered hair/slacks v. skirts in a house of worship is dependent on that specific house of worship's conventions and views on such things. I agree it is exceedingly rude and disrespectful to enter any place dressed in a way that goes against the rules. I was not being disrespectful when I wore my strapless wedding gown in a church that has no rules against bare shoulders. I ran it by the pastor, and he said it was fine. If he had told me it wasn't fine, I would have found a way to cover my shoulders for the ceremony. :)
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: audrey1962 on April 02, 2013, 12:09:44 PM
My grandmother's wedding gown was strapless - and she married in 1949, so strapless is certainly nothing new (although she did have a matching jacket she wore for religious ceremony).
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: Rohanna on April 02, 2013, 12:19:15 PM
Turnip - I certainly don't mean it can't be just as important to non religious folk :) I just resent being chided that it should, since for some folk there is no more reason to value the ceremony over the reception or vice versa.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: turnip on April 02, 2013, 12:28:04 PM
Turnip - I certainly don't mean it can't be just as important to non religious folk :) I just resent being chided that it should, since for some folk there is no more reason to value the ceremony over the reception or vice versa.

Oh I understand :-)   I think MM is being old-fashioned, but not necessarily religiously bigoted - if you know what I mean.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: booklover03 on April 02, 2013, 01:17:38 PM
I had a strapless dress for my wedding 10 years ago. We even got married in a church.  I love how it looked on me and how I could move my arms freely. All the dresses with sleeves hindered my ability to hug people comfortably. Also, it was 108 degrees the day I got married. I was hot even in a strapless gown, but with sleeves it would've been unbearable.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: gollymolly2 on April 02, 2013, 01:41:55 PM
I had a non-religious outdoor ceremony and wore a strapless gown. I have incredibly broad shoulders, and everything made me look like a white linebacker if it had sleeves. Even my 80 year d
conservative grandma preferred no-sleeves.

Quite frankly I don't care if the bride "prefers the party" anyways-
So what if shed rather celebrate with her nearest and dearest than worry about the formalities? That to me is a personal matter not an etiquette one. It is not a matter or etiquette to dictate whether someone is religious or not, or hung up on "signing a dotted line".

For me the most important part WAS the reception- not because of the food (I barely ate) or the dancing (I rarely do) but because I got to gather together many relatives and friends who are scattered far and wide and involve them in my life. Is that really so bad? I have no god to account to, so the ceremony was only the formal government  part of a commitment my new husband and I felt we'd made years ago. The reception was the first "event" we hosted as husband and wife, and meant a lot to us. I fail to see how fabric covering my upper arms would have changed my feelings in that regard.

If miss manners cannot account for the motives of agnostics, atheists or secular humanists like myself, I am afraid I cannot take her advise from now on, as I do not feel
my lack of organized religion affects my manners.

Just as an alternate non-religious opinion, the ceremony was important to me as were the promises I made to my husband.  I don't see Miss Manners as dismissing non-religious ceremonies, just sticking to the more traditional view that the 'event' is the ceremony - the formal vows made by the bride and groom that joins them as a family - and the reception is the celebration of the event.

I just don't understand the connection. How is wearing a strapless gown at all related to whether a bride cares more about the ceremony or reception?

I agree with the PP who said that this is a good example of why Miss Manners' opinion shouldn't be treated as gospel. She's good with formal etiquette (e.g. How should I set up the place settings at a formal dinner I'm hosting) but her opinions on etiquette in everyday life seem to be stuck four or five decades ago. Things change.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: Hmmmmm on April 02, 2013, 02:07:00 PM
I had a non-religious outdoor ceremony and wore a strapless gown. I have incredibly broad shoulders, and everything made me look like a white linebacker if it had sleeves. Even my 80 year d
conservative grandma preferred no-sleeves.

Quite frankly I don't care if the bride "prefers the party" anyways-
So what if shed rather celebrate with her nearest and dearest than worry about the formalities? That to me is a personal matter not an etiquette one. It is not a matter or etiquette to dictate whether someone is religious or not, or hung up on "signing a dotted line".

For me the most important part WAS the reception- not because of the food (I barely ate) or the dancing (I rarely do) but because I got to gather together many relatives and friends who are scattered far and wide and involve them in my life. Is that really so bad? I have no god to account to, so the ceremony was only the formal government  part of a commitment my new husband and I felt we'd made years ago. The reception was the first "event" we hosted as husband and wife, and meant a lot to us. I fail to see how fabric covering my upper arms would have changed my feelings in that regard.

If miss manners cannot account for the motives of agnostics, atheists or secular humanists like myself, I am afraid I cannot take her advise from now on, as I do not feel
my lack of organized religion affects my manners.

Just as an alternate non-religious opinion, the ceremony was important to me as were the promises I made to my husband.  I don't see Miss Manners as dismissing non-religious ceremonies, just sticking to the more traditional view that the 'event' is the ceremony - the formal vows made by the bride and groom that joins them as a family - and the reception is the celebration of the event.

I just don't understand the connection. How is wearing a strapless gown at all related to whether a bride cares more about the ceremony or reception?

I agree with the PP who said that this is a good example of why Miss Manners' opinion shouldn't be treated as gospel. She's good with formal etiquette (e.g. How should I set up the place settings at a formal dinner I'm hosting) but her opinions on etiquette in everyday life seem to be stuck four or five decades ago. Things change.

Traditionally, stapless gowns were reserved for balls, gala's, and parties. Not for a more somber religious ceremony. If you perscribe to this stance, dressing in a strapless dress implies you are dressing more for the reception "the party" than you are for the more somber religious ceremony.

and I wanted to mention that Miss Manners would have been very happy with Audrey1962 grandmother. I think she wishes all brides would do the same today. 
Posted by: audrey1962
My grandmother's wedding gown was strapless - and she married in 1949, so strapless is certainly nothing new (although she did have a matching jacket she wore for religious ceremony).
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: jaxsue on April 02, 2013, 02:11:26 PM
Just a note, if you are trying to find a NON strapless wedding gown, Google Mormon wedding gowns. They have plenty of coverage.

My circa 1984 wedding gown would've won the approval of the Mormons. Too much skin was forbidden in our conservative Baptist churches.  :-[
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: LadyL on April 02, 2013, 02:14:24 PM
I don't care for strapless dresses much myself and if it was the style I was needing to wear, I'd look for a way to put in wide straps or sleeves. But this is simply me. For one thing, strapless looks like a fidgeting nightmare. I can't imagine being at an event, and moving around, dancing, etc., without having to hitch up the bodice or generally move it back in place many times over the course of wearing the garment. Although they can be really pretty, such as the green one Hilary Swank wore to the Oscars when she won her first award remains a fave celeb gown of mine. 

A well made strapless gown will have enough support that it stays up even if you jump up and down. My wedding dress is being made with a built in bra and boning so the structure is more like a corset than a typical dress.

Also, my "second runner up" dress had fairly thick straps - and also a neckline that showed some cleavage. The strapless gown I chose, however, can be made so that that top covers far beyond the cleavage line. I think it's a bit inane to debate whether mostly covered shoulders + cleavage is better/worse than uncovered shoulders + no cleavage.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: Rohanna on April 02, 2013, 03:11:17 PM
Yep I have "generous assets" and I didn't need to adjust my gown- the boning sat on my waist so t basically couldn't slide past my hips. A properly constructed strapless wedding gown is not at all the same as a regular strapless dress in terms of support and structure.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: BeagleMommy on April 02, 2013, 03:33:31 PM
When I married in 1987 I wore an off-the-shoulder Scarlett O'Hara type wedding gown with a full ballgown skirt.  It was what I wanted and my Catholic church had no problem with it.  My bridesmaids gowns were strapless, but very demure with a wide ruffle that covered any decollette.

When my cousin married in a very conservative Baptist church shoulders had to be covered even if it was with sheer fabric.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: Yvaine on April 02, 2013, 03:57:15 PM
Yep I have "generous assets" and I didn't need to adjust my gown- the boning sat on my waist so t basically couldn't slide past my hips. A properly constructed strapless wedding gown is not at all the same as a regular strapless dress in terms of support and structure.

This is my understanding as well. There's a ton of "infrastructure" and the weight is carried by the waist.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: LadyR on April 02, 2013, 04:11:44 PM
I got married three years ago in a Catholic Cathedral in a strapless gown (my bridesmaids also wore strapless gowns), I just wore a pashmina to cover my shoulders during the ceremony, as did the other women. I took my wedding seriously, but I also wanted a pretty, flattering dress.

When I went looking for a gown, I probably tried on 30-40 and I think there was one gown that wasn't a halter or strapless and it had clear little cap sleeves (and looked terrible on me, as did the halter style) and most of the gowns I saw were also strapless or halter or one strapped (a style that doesn't appeal to me).

We also have 500 photos from our wedding, but no head shots where I looked naked  ;D

ETA-  My dress also had a bulit-in bra and lots of boning and was in no danger of falling down.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: Poppea on April 02, 2013, 04:45:17 PM
http://www.buffalonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20130402/CITYANDREGION03/130409892/1057 (http://www.buffalonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20130402/CITYANDREGION03/130409892/1057)

I was a bit stunned by this. I wore a strapless wedding dress at my wedding more than 10 years ago. I could assure Miss Manners that I did, indeed, consider the ceremony the important part of the day, but it doesn't seem she would want to hear that.

Thoughts?

(Plus: There are still debutantes these days?)

When I was married I worn a dress that had sleeves (for the church) but the sleeves could come down for the reception.  Some churches did not allow strapless dresses back then.

Yes there are still debutantes.  There are the traditional debutantes (long time charitable organizations, highly selective), ethnic debutantes (where I live there are Jewish, Greek and African American debutante balls) and fake debutante balls (like modeling schools).  I do not live in the south.

Several different Hispanic cultures celebrate a girl's Quinceañera, which can be every bit as formal as a wedding, though the major difference is that the dress is typically pale pink, not white.

I had the impression that the poster was trying to purchase a debutante gown (many debs wear a wedding gown and then wear it when they get married) and thought there was a difference in the two dresses.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: daen on April 02, 2013, 04:58:06 PM
When we got married, my husband had one request about the dress - not strapless. His contention is that a very small minority of women look good in a strapless wedding gown. A halter would be fine, just not fully strapless.

I didn't have a problem with that, and I found two gowns fit the requirements that I would have been quite happy with. I ended up getting the one from the bridal consignment store in my sister's neighborhood.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: Katana_Geldar on April 02, 2013, 05:22:27 PM
My dress was backless and ivory satin. White made me look too washed out and I didn't want a strapless.

http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Katana_Geldar/library/Wedding?page=1

Best part? It had been sitting in the shop four four years and was under $500.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: mmswm on April 02, 2013, 05:23:36 PM
I was really hoping that the royal wedding would bring a surge of non-strapless gowns, if only to give women more choice.  Sadly, it was not to be.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: Katana_Geldar on April 02, 2013, 05:28:45 PM
People have imitated Pippa's gown, not Kate's.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: LadyL on April 02, 2013, 05:31:18 PM
I was really hoping that the royal wedding would bring a surge of non-strapless gowns, if only to give women more choice.  Sadly, it was not to be.

Having looked at  100+ dress collections online this year, I can say with certainty that most major designers have some version of the royal wedding gown with a sweetheart neckline and lace sleeves. A cursory search on a large site found me these:

http://www.rkbridal.com/bridal-collections/allure/allure-bridal-2604-best-bridal-prices.html
http://www.rkbridal.com/bridal-collections/enzoani/enzoani-bridal-farrah.html
http://www.rkbridal.com/bridal-collections/maggie-sottero/maggie-sottero-12923-dalton-rk-bridal-for-best-prices.html
http://www.rkbridal.com/bridal-collections/sincerity-bridal/sincerity-bridal-3733-best-bridal-prices.html

Since dresses have to be ordered 4-8 months out, there is a time lag between when designs debut and when it becomes clear if the trend has taken off or not. It's still possible that there will be a lot more brides in sleeved dresses this wedding season.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: WillyNilly on April 02, 2013, 05:33:32 PM
I was really hoping that the royal wedding would bring a surge of non-strapless gowns, if only to give women more choice.  Sadly, it was not to be.

Didn't the Twilight movie popularize gowns with sleeves?
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: katycoo on April 02, 2013, 05:42:15 PM
My wedding dress was strapless, and I'm offended at the notion I didn't take my wedding seriously.

IME though, dresses with straps and cap sleeves are gaining popularity.  Long sleeves are unlikley to ever be big in Australia.  Winter weddings are uncommon (and even then, a cape or bolero is more popular than attached long sleeves), and summer is far, far too hot.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: Hmmmmm on April 02, 2013, 05:45:26 PM
I just took a look at Kleinfield's site.

They have 23 pages of strapless wedding gowns and 23 pages of gowns with some type of sleeve (cap, tank, 3/4, or long) and another 4 pages of gowns with spaghetti straps.

So I think there may be a shift occuring to leveling off on whether you can find gowns that aren't strapless.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: mmswm on April 02, 2013, 06:06:35 PM
Oh!  That is very good news indeed!  I'm not involved in too many weddings, but I do hear younger friends complaining about the lack of non-strapless choices.  I'm glad to know the tide is shifting.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: Jaelle on April 02, 2013, 06:30:42 PM
I think the point was, in a *religious* wedding ceremony, at a church, in many (I'd venture most) cultures and denominations, showing that much skin isn't appropriate. Now if you're having a wedding elsewhere (outdoors, at home, at a hall or other space) then the issue isn't the point. The issue of strapless is *in church*. I wouldn't wear a strapless dress by choice anywhere, but the absolute last place I'd wear one would be at a house of worship - mine, or someone else's. Just like I wouldn't wear flip flops, or ratty cutoffs, or anything else that would be inappropriate (uncovered hair in some places, pants in others).

I don't think she's looking at fashion. I think she's looking at respect, which is the heart of manners.

I was married in a church. Baptist church, Catholic ceremony, with my family's Baptist minister doing a reading at the ceremony. :) No one, not even my husband's elderly uncle, the priest who performed the wedding, batted an eyelash at my strapless dress. Except to compliment me.

I guess that's why I'm so bewildered by this. I consider the church I grew up in (and where I was married) to be conservative, but this was a non-issue.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: Jones on April 02, 2013, 06:47:13 PM
I love, love, loved my wedding dress, which I purchased consignment, and had sleeves. I have always felt that no sleeves, straps, and some cap sleeves make my arms look quite fat--even when I was a size 6. I have no problem with women wearing tasteful sleeveless wedding dresses, it's just not for me; and it's not rude to wear something that I choose to not wear myself.

And now I need to share a picture. The skirt was poofy but otherwise plain; the top was the best part, IMO.

(http://i358.photobucket.com/albums/oo24/chandanista/13sharingcake_zpsbaa7f853.jpg)

PS-I also don't know any debutantes, and never even went to prom. However, I don't see how sleeves vs. no sleeves would affect whether or not my parents paid for my wedding dress? ...they didn't, btw.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: flowersintheattic on April 02, 2013, 06:56:29 PM
I just took a look at Kleinfield's site.

They have 23 pages of strapless wedding gowns and 23 pages of gowns with some type of sleeve (cap, tank, 3/4, or long) and another 4 pages of gowns with spaghetti straps.

So I think there may be a shift occuring to leveling off on whether you can find gowns that aren't strapless.

When I was looking at wedding gowns (about a year and a half, two years ago), there seemed to be quite a few non-strapless dresses around. It doesn't surprise me that the trend's increasing now.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: Erich L-ster on April 02, 2013, 07:11:13 PM
That is some very outdated advice from MM. I always thought that debutantes were from very rich families.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: katycoo on April 02, 2013, 07:16:23 PM
I think the point was, in a *religious* wedding ceremony, at a church, in many (I'd venture most) cultures and denominations, showing that much skin isn't appropriate. Now if you're having a wedding elsewhere (outdoors, at home, at a hall or other space) then the issue isn't the point. The issue of strapless is *in church*. I wouldn't wear a strapless dress by choice anywhere, but the absolute last place I'd wear one would be at a house of worship - mine, or someone else's. Just like I wouldn't wear flip flops, or ratty cutoffs, or anything else that would be inappropriate (uncovered hair in some places, pants in others).

I don't think she's looking at fashion. I think she's looking at respect, which is the heart of manners.

I was married in a church. Baptist church, Catholic ceremony, with my family's Baptist minister doing a reading at the ceremony. :) No one, not even my husband's elderly uncle, the priest who performed the wedding, batted an eyelash at my strapless dress. Except to compliment me.

I guess that's why I'm so bewildered by this. I consider the church I grew up in (and where I was married) to be conservative, but this was a non-issue.

I had a church wedding too. Strapless dresses have never, ever been an issue.  I'm sure that some churches feel that shoulders should be covered, but this is by no means a blanket rule.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: Bluenomi on April 02, 2013, 07:50:13 PM
My wedding dress was strapless, and I'm offended at the notion I didn't take my wedding seriously.

IME though, dresses with straps and cap sleeves are gaining popularity.  Long sleeves are unlikley to ever be big in Australia.  Winter weddings are uncommon (and even then, a cape or bolero is more popular than attached long sleeves), and summer is far, far too hot.

I agree with you there. My wedding was in Canberra in winter and my dress only have little capped shoulders (and could have been strapless since they were detachable) and a full length cape for outside when it got cold. During the day I didn't need anything.

Summer weddings are bad enough in a strapless dress, sleeves would be a nightmare!
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: Poppea on April 02, 2013, 11:22:52 PM
That is some very outdated advice from MM. I always thought that debutantes were from very rich families.

They are not from poor families. 

But if you are wondering why a deb gown would double as a wedding gown its pretty simple - people who have money and want to keep it ususally don't throw it around.  It also makes a nice sentence in the newspapers wedding announcement "Miss Smith wore the same gown when she debuted in the Christmas cotillion in 2008." 
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: furrcats on April 02, 2013, 11:35:51 PM
I love, love, loved my wedding dress, which I purchased consignment, and had sleeves. I have always felt that no sleeves, straps, and some cap sleeves make my arms look quite fat--even when I was a size 6. I have no problem with women wearing tasteful sleeveless wedding dresses, it's just not for me; and it's not rude to wear something that I choose to not wear myself.

And now I need to share a picture. The skirt was poofy but otherwise plain; the top was the best part, IMO.

(http://i358.photobucket.com/albums/oo24/chandanista/13sharingcake_zpsbaa7f853.jpg)

PS-I also don't know any debutantes, and never even went to prom. However, I don't see how sleeves vs. no sleeves would affect whether or not my parents paid for my wedding dress? ...they didn't, btw.

Lovely wedding photo  :)
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: jedikaiti on April 03, 2013, 12:46:45 AM
http://www.buffalonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20130402/CITYANDREGION03/130409892/1057 (http://www.buffalonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20130402/CITYANDREGION03/130409892/1057)

I was a bit stunned by this. I wore a strapless wedding dress at my wedding more than 10 years ago. I could assure Miss Manners that I did, indeed, consider the ceremony the important part of the day, but it doesn't seem she would want to hear that.

Thoughts?

(Plus: There are still debutantes these days?)

Clearly Miss Manners hasn't gone wedding dress shopping in the US anytime recently. I WANTED sleeves. I was lucky to get non-spaghetti straps. If you don't have the skills or the money to get a custom-made wedding gown, you're kinda stuck.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: MrsJWine on April 03, 2013, 01:30:27 AM
I got married ten years ago. I tried on dozens of dresses. Of the ones I looked at that weren't completely hideous or frumpy-looking to me, only a handful were not strapless. I really would have liked a dress with some kind of straps, but I couldn't find one in my price range (which was very low) that was flattering, beautiful, and not strapless. So I guess you could say being a cheapskate was most important to me. :)

ETA: I got married in a pretty conservative church. Also, my dress was, IMO, more modest than some t-shirts I've worn.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: scotcat60 on April 03, 2013, 06:05:09 AM
I was really hoping that the royal wedding would bring a surge of non-strapless gowns, if only to give women more choice.  Sadly, it was not to be.

Yes, it seems that all the gowns I've seen in our local bridal shop are strapless. But as someone else said, it  puffy sleeves were the norm a few years ago. Strapless can look good, although I felt for the Welsh bride who got married recently in such a gown when the country was blanketed in snow up to 15ft foot deep in places.

I do remember a posting some years ago when e-hell dame likened brides in strapless gowns as looking as if they were wearing a bathtowel....

And remember the photo of the bride in a strapless dress whose bosom was practically spilling out of it?
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: Yvaine on April 03, 2013, 06:41:33 AM
I was really hoping that the royal wedding would bring a surge of non-strapless gowns, if only to give women more choice.  Sadly, it was not to be.

Yes, it seems that all the gowns I've seen in our local bridal shop are strapless. But as someone else said, it  puffy sleeves were the norm a few years ago. Strapless can look good, although I felt for the Welsh bride who got married recently in such a gown when the country was blanketed in snow up to 15ft foot deep in places.

I do remember a posting some years ago when e-hell dame likened brides in strapless gowns as looking as if they were wearing a bathtowel....

And remember the photo of the bride in a strapless dress whose bosom was practically spilling out of it?

Well, the dress not fitting is another thing entirely.  ;D All brides, regardless of figure type, will look best in a dress that actually fits them.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: Emmy on April 03, 2013, 06:59:49 AM
Miss Manners makes an interesting assumption.  Some people don't like the look of strapless gowns and they are entitled to that opinion, but it is unfair to say that brides who chose to wore them don't take their wedding ceremony seriously.

Add me as another one who wore a dress with spaghetti straps (which is not much different) to the wedding and tucked in the straps for the reception.  My dress was also a light shade of gold, so I'm sure we would have had to have vapors on hand had Miss Manners have been there.  Many strapless dresses don't show cleavage (mine included) and would find a dress with sleeves that showed a lot of cleavage much less modest than a strapless dress that doesn't.  I got married 7 years ago and the main reason I chose strapless was because DH mentioned he loved strapless dresses and he wanted me to wear one for our wedding.  I chose a light gold color because I have very light skin and pure white isn't flattering on me.

I've been a bridesmaid a few times and all the bridesmaid dresses I've got since 2003 have been strapless.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: Golden Phoenix on April 03, 2013, 07:06:17 AM
She'd hate me.  :-\

When we got married we couldn't afford a dress, or a reception, we barely afforded the flowers and i made all of that myself from a couple of bunches from the local florist.

I wore nice trousers, my best top and my best shoes. I put my hair half up and covered a small clip in roses and foliage and used that to hold my hair back.

Whole wedding cost: Less than £200. Including ceremony and rings.

Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: Hmmmmm on April 03, 2013, 09:42:13 AM
She'd hate me.  :-\

When we got married we couldn't afford a dress, or a reception, we barely afforded the flowers and i made all of that myself from a couple of bunches from the local florist.

I wore nice trousers, my best top and my best shoes. I put my hair half up and covered a small clip in roses and foliage and used that to hold my hair back.

Whole wedding cost: Less than £200. Including ceremony and rings.
Actually, I doubt she would hate it. What you describe is something she would believe was entirely appropriate. She's stated a few times about disliking over the top weddings and people going into debt for a wedding.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: jaxsue on April 03, 2013, 10:03:06 AM
She'd hate me.  :-\

When we got married we couldn't afford a dress, or a reception, we barely afforded the flowers and i made all of that myself from a couple of bunches from the local florist.

I wore nice trousers, my best top and my best shoes. I put my hair half up and covered a small clip in roses and foliage and used that to hold my hair back.

Whole wedding cost: Less than £200. Including ceremony and rings.
Actually, I doubt she would hate it. What you describe is something she would believe was entirely appropriate. She's stated a few times about disliking over the top weddings and people going into debt for a wedding.

Yep. I never understood the going into debt for a wedding. But then I'm a geek that way.  :)
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: Girlie on April 03, 2013, 10:28:26 AM
I have to say that I'm personally a bit miffed at the assumption(s) made by Miss Manners in this article.
I had a lovely church wedding in my rather conservative Baptist church. No one batted an eye or thought it was unusual at all that my gown - and the dresses of two of my bridesmaids - were strapless. They were beautiful dresses, and perfectly formal and tasteful, IMHO.
I took the ceremony VERY seriously, too. The after-party was important, but I did months worth of research on the ceremony alone - traditional vows vs. non-traditional ones, the Biblical and traditional ways of doing things, modern twists that would reflect our personal beliefs and expressions of faith....

I find her entire article to be judgmental. I agree with those above who have said that she is confusing personal preference with etiquette. 
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: #borecore on April 03, 2013, 10:31:24 AM
I wonder what those more etiquettely advanced than me would have to say about the dress I will wear to my religious ceremony next month? It's not a tube top, but I am not certain you'd call the neckline conservative. FWIW, it was sold (for a very reasonable 60% off, $78) as a halter:

(http://l3.zassets.com/images/z/2/1/9/2/2/8/2192286-p-MULTIVIEW.jpg)
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: MandiC76 on April 03, 2013, 11:49:15 AM
Yep I have "generous assets" and I didn't need to adjust my gown- the boning sat on my waist so t basically couldn't slide past my hips. A properly constructed strapless wedding gown is not at all the same as a regular strapless dress in terms of support and structure.

My situation was the same - between the construction of the undergarments, the construction of the dress, and the bonus of a tied corset waist, that dress did not move! :)
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: Katana_Geldar on April 03, 2013, 03:13:48 PM
And I saw a bride who was pulling up her dress before she even got in the car to go to the ceremony. She was going to be doing that all day.

Why didn't she try it in properly? Jumping around, pretending up dance, bending over, sitting... You look like a loon in the bridal shop but you need to know that dress will stay on.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: CharlieBraun on April 03, 2013, 03:27:30 PM
I think that the wedding industry has dictated strapless so long that it's become the norm.  And it wasn't done for any other reason than money; strapless gowns have requires less material, and results in fewer available variations to the gown's upper portion.  Fewer available variations translates into fewer samples required, and so on.

When I married eight years ago, I opted to have my gown made, to a large extent to have total control over my choices including the upper portion; strapless was not for me.  But that was my choice, and everyone's choice is just that - their choice.

IMO, Miss Manners misstepped here.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: gellchom on April 03, 2013, 04:54:32 PM
It really is hard to find non-strapless dresses lately.  And that is a problem when the wedding is to be held at a house of worship or other venue where strapless clothes are inappropriate any time.  My daughter-in-law chose a strapless wedding gown and spaghetti-strap-optional bridesmaid dresses.  The attendants all had to wear some kind of little lacy shawl, and the bride wore a tiny bolero, for the ceremony at the synagogue.  It looked okay, but I was sorry they had to spend the extra.

The synagogue doesn't have a RULE about this, but it's not considered in good taste for women to attend services or ceremonies like weddings with bare shoulders, any time.  Guests bring a wrap of some kind.  And I have to admit that when brides wear strapless gowns with no covering for the ceremony there, it just looks a little wrong.  Like if a man weren't wearing a head covering in the synagogue.  No one says anything, but it seems like she just was ignorant of what is considered appropriate for the venue.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: Penguin_ar on April 04, 2013, 05:42:23 AM
I wonder what those more etiquettely advanced than me would have to say about the dress I will wear to my religious ceremony next month? It's not a tube top, but I am not certain you'd call the neckline conservative. FWIW, it was sold (for a very reasonable 60% off, $78) as a halter:

(http://l3.zassets.com/images/z/2/1/9/2/2/8/2192286-p-MULTIVIEW.jpg)

It has straps  :P
I do think a wedding dress should not be "oh lala sexy", but, while my own had full sleeves and covered everything for religious reasons, I don't think just the attribute of a wedding dress being strapless makes it inappropriate.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: SamiHami on April 04, 2013, 06:59:45 AM
Overall, I think strapless gowns in churches are tacky. For an outdoor wedding or another venue, sure if that's what the bride wants. I agree with the idea that if you wouldn't wear a tube top to church, why would you wear something that amounts to the same (lack of) coverage to what is arguably the most important religious ceremony of your life? It seems direspectful to me.

I also find strapless dresses completely boring anymore. It seems like everyone wears the same fit & flair/mermaid strapless dresses anymore, the only differences being details like lace or beading. Brides have become very cookie cutter in the last few years. I'd rather see a bride dressed like Duchess Catherine; at least she looked appropriate, pretty and respectful (regardless of whether you like her personally or not). Or a different color; wedding gowns do not have to be white...that's simply a fashion trend that no one is required to stick to. But these dull, white strapless gowns are just overdone.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: Tabby Uprising on April 04, 2013, 07:40:39 AM
Overall, I think strapless gowns in churches are tacky. For an outdoor wedding or another venue, sure if that's what the bride wants. I agree with the idea that if you wouldn't wear a tube top to church, why would you wear something that amounts to the same (lack of) coverage to what is arguably the most important religious ceremony of your life? It seems direspectful to me.

I also find strapless dresses completely boring anymore. It seems like everyone wears the same fit & flair/mermaid strapless dresses anymore, the only differences being details like lace or beading. Brides have become very cookie cutter in the last few years. I'd rather see a bride dressed like Duchess Catherine; at least she looked appropriate, pretty and respectful (regardless of whether you like her personally or not). Or a different color; wedding gowns do not have to be white...that's simply a fashion trend that no one is required to stick to. But these dull, white strapless gowns are just overdone.

This entire thread is full of posters recounting how difficult it was to find wedding dresses that aren't strapless.  That mirrors my experience.  I went to two large stores and not a single option had sleeves.  I doubt many of us had famous designers throwing themselves at us like Kate Middleton did and I doubt many of us have her financial means (or entourage dedicated to assisting with all aspects of the wedding) to craft us the perfect "appropriate" wedding dress.

I simply could not afford getting something from a specialized boutique and I certainly couldn't afford to have something custom made.  If my only options are strapless, what am I supposed to do?  I didn't want to put that much time and money and energy into a dress because I didn't think it was that important in the grand scheme of things.  I asked the priest if my dress was okay and he said it was fine.  He seemed puzzled that I would ask!  How is that disrespectful to my church? 

And as I've said before, I love going to weddings. I can't think of a wedding I've gone to where I thought the bride looked anything but beautiful and radiant.  I can't imagine picking a bride apart while I'm a guest at her wedding sneering that her dress is a tacky, inappropriate, boring tube top.  I just don't like thinking that way about other women.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: Sharnita on April 04, 2013, 07:50:22 AM
I can't say that I seem much in common with a tube top and stapless dress, either.  Tube tops are not usually altered and do not have the stucture.  And I have to say that a lot of straps are so unsubstantial that they seem like they don't cover anything and they don't hold anything up any more than a strapless.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: SiotehCat on April 04, 2013, 07:54:31 AM
I can't say that I seem much in common with a tube top and stapless dress, either.  Tube tops are not usually altered and do not have the stucture.  And I have to say that a lot of straps are so unsubstantial that they seem like they don't cover anything and they don't hold anything up any more than a strapless.

SamiHami equated it to a tube top in terms of coverage.

I agree with her entire post.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: Sharnita on April 04, 2013, 07:55:45 AM
I can't say that I seem much in common with a tube top and stapless dress, either.  Tube tops are not usually altered and do not have the stucture.  And I have to say that a lot of straps are so unsubstantial that they seem like they don't cover anything and they don't hold anything up any more than a strapless.

SamiHami equated it to a tube top in terms of coverage.

I agree with her entire post.

I realize she did and what I am saying is that is a vast oversimplification of the two clothing items.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: Thipu1 on April 04, 2013, 08:01:54 AM
I have no objection to strapless Wedding dresses but, to me, they don't look comfortable.  However, they seem to be the norm these days.  Woe to the bride who wants straps or (gasp) sleeves.

When I was married in 1983, my dress was a lined, knee-length sheath of cotton lace with long, unlined lace sleeves.  It was comfortable, modest and cost 40 USD. 

We also had a modest reception but everybody had a good time and a good meal.  We were buying our co-op and figured that money was better spent on Mr. Mortgage. Our guests agreed.  One of the nicest compliments I've ever received was when niece told me she  modeled her Wedding after ours. 

I agree that the fashion for strapless Wedding dresses is market-driven.  These dresses usually require special foundation garments that add to the cost of an already expensive dress.  On 'Say Yes to the Dress', I've seen brides whose gowns cost more than the down-payment on our apartment. 

Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: LadyL on April 04, 2013, 08:05:57 AM
I agree with the idea that if you wouldn't wear a tube top to church, why would you wear something that amounts to the same (lack of) coverage to what is arguably the most important religious ceremony of your life? It seems direspectful to me.


A tube top is much more informal than a structured, formal, strapless wedding gown. The convention of strapless gowns only being for parties faded out, to my knowledge, around the 60s or 70s. The idea of one's shoulders and arms being immodest is a matter of religious doctrine, and to a lesser extent taste, but I was always confused why arms and shoulders were considered sexual. Cleavage, sure, short skirt, sure, even bare midriff I get -  but I have never been titillated by someone's upper arms or collarbone  :P.

I will add that I also thought wedding dresses were boring and cookie cutter these days. However, I realized after dress shopping that most photos do not pick up the fine details of a dress (including the designer's own photos, which is why I completely overlooked my dress when I first saw a picture of it online but was stunned by it in person). My second runner up dress had an entire under layer of beautiful lace under a layer of sheerer material - the under layer is not visible in the online pictures but creates a very nice effect in person. Details like pleating, beading, ruching, etc. often don't show up in flash photos but in person distinguish the gowns from all the others.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: Thipu1 on April 04, 2013, 08:23:48 AM
There is no comparison between a tube top and the dress pictured. 

Yes, the dress has a plunging neckline but the V is very narrow.  It looks comfortable, elegant and perfectly suitable for a church Wedding in most major denominations. 
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: Poppea on April 04, 2013, 08:25:37 AM
I have no objection to strapless Wedding dresses but, to me, they don't look comfortable.  However, they seem to be the norm these days.  Woe to the bride who wants straps or (gasp) sleeves.

When I was married in 1983, my dress was a lined, knee-length sheath of cotton lace with long, unlined lace sleeves.  It was comfortable, modest and cost 40 USD. 

We also had a modest reception but everybody had a good time and a good meal.  We were buying our co-op and figured that money was better spent on Mr. Mortgage. Our guests agreed.  One of the nicest compliments I've ever received was when niece told me she  modeled her Wedding after ours. 

I agree that the fashion for strapless Wedding dresses is market-driven.  These dresses usually require special foundation garments that add to the cost of an already expensive dress.  On 'Say Yes to the Dress', I've seen brides whose gowns cost more than the down-payment on our apartment.

Your dress sounds very chic.  Simple yet elegant.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: Spring Water on Sundays on April 04, 2013, 08:57:54 AM
Overall, I think strapless gowns in churches are tacky. For an outdoor wedding or another venue, sure if that's what the bride wants. I agree with the idea that if you wouldn't wear a tube top to church, why would you wear something that amounts to the same (lack of) coverage to what is arguably the most important religious ceremony of your life? It seems direspectful to me.

I also find strapless dresses completely boring anymore. It seems like everyone wears the same fit & flair/mermaid strapless dresses anymore, the only differences being details like lace or beading. Brides have become very cookie cutter in the last few years. I'd rather see a bride dressed like Duchess Catherine; at least she looked appropriate, pretty and respectful (regardless of whether you like her personally or not). Or a different color; wedding gowns do not have to be white...that's simply a fashion trend that no one is required to stick to. But these dull, white strapless gowns are just overdone.

I felt pretty in my flattering and simple strapless gown, my new husband found me beautiful in it, my parents (who paid for my gown) were beaming over their lovely daughter, and my pastor assured me, when I asked him, that the church had no rules, guidelines, or restrictions on bare shoulders. To whom was I being disrespectful?
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: Yvaine on April 04, 2013, 09:15:50 AM
There is no comparison between a tube top and the dress pictured. 

Yes, the dress has a plunging neckline but the V is very narrow.  It looks comfortable, elegant and perfectly suitable for a church Wedding in most major denominations.

Yeah, a tube top is revealing not just because of the cut but because they're usually (a) really unstructured and (b) made of really thin material.

And some of the "more covered up" dresses of the last few decades were actually pretty revealing too. I remember a lot of those puffed sleeve 80s gowns showed substantial cleavage. The Carolyn Bessette Kennedy dress mentioned above--my google-fu is failing me, but I think it was backless. Just like in regular clothes, styles come and go in terms of what is hidden and what is revealed. Next it might be cap sleeves but a short skirt, who knows.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: SiotehCat on April 04, 2013, 09:21:18 AM
Would a well fitting tube top made of thicker material with a corset on top be acceptable then? I don't think it would.

I think that if one choose to wear a strapless dress, they should wear some kind of cover while in church.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: Sharnita on April 04, 2013, 09:23:26 AM
A dress that has sleeves on top might "cover" as much as a child's sleeper on top but comparing the two strikes me as a bit absurd.  Comparing a strapless bridal gown to a tube top seems almost as pointless.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: Tabby Uprising on April 04, 2013, 09:26:25 AM
Would a well fitting tube top made of thicker material with a corset on top be acceptable then? I don't think it would.

I think that if one choose to wear a strapless dress, they should wear some kind of cover while in church.


That should be left up to the church.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: Golden Phoenix on April 04, 2013, 09:35:45 AM
She'd hate me.  :-\

When we got married we couldn't afford a dress, or a reception, we barely afforded the flowers and i made all of that myself from a couple of bunches from the local florist.

I wore nice trousers, my best top and my best shoes. I put my hair half up and covered a small clip in roses and foliage and used that to hold my hair back.

Whole wedding cost: Less than £200. Including ceremony and rings.
Actually, I doubt she would hate it. What you describe is something she would believe was entirely appropriate. She's stated a few times about disliking over the top weddings and people going into debt for a wedding.

Yep. I never understood the going into debt for a wedding. But then I'm a geek that way.  :)

Me either. We stuck with what we could afford and the day meant just as much to us as if we had a big ceremony.

Though i must admit we're saving hard for a "Big White Vow Renewal" on our anniversary next year. We're booking a hall, having a buffet and disco and i'll wear a wedding dress. It's basically an anniversary party with extras since we didn't get to do the big fancy do the first time round. Should still cost us less than £600 which isn't bad at all.

FTR this is the dress i'll be wearing:
(http://www.weddingdressmall.co.uk/3561-large/dreamful-v-neck-embroidery-princess-skirt-satin-plus-size-wedding-dress-wp0019.jpg)(http://www.weddingdressmall.co.uk/3562-large/dreamful-v-neck-embroidery-princess-skirt-satin-plus-size-wedding-dress-wp0019.jpg)
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: LadyL on April 04, 2013, 09:43:30 AM
Would a well fitting tube top made of thicker material with a corset on top be acceptable then? I don't think it would.

I think that if one choose to wear a strapless dress, they should wear some kind of cover while in church.


That should be left up to the church.

POD. Some religions require even more coverage than just shoulders and upper arms - some require sleeves covering the entire elbow, for example. There is no one rule about modesty that applies to all churches/houses of worship.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: Spring Water on Sundays on April 04, 2013, 09:48:25 AM
Would a well fitting tube top made of thicker material with a corset on top be acceptable then? I don't think it would.

I think that if one choose to wear a strapless dress, they should wear some kind of cover while in church.

Even if the bride checks with the pastor/officiant beforehand and is assured there are no rules or guidelines regarding strapless gowns or bare shoulders?
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: booklover03 on April 04, 2013, 10:15:40 AM
My wedding dress was strapless. I loved it.  My sister did not want strapless. She was uncomfortable with the idea and got a dress with capped sleeves. She looked beautiful. I tried on a lot of wedding gown and disliked the ones with sleeves. I couldn't move my arms very well and I felt very confined. Strapless worked well for me and my dh loved my gown. I even brought a picture to the minister doing our wedding and he said it was fine and we got married in a pretty conservative church. Different strokes for different folks.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: rose red on April 04, 2013, 10:29:28 AM
A strapless dress can look modest, and a sleeved dress can look obscene.  It all depends on the cut, the shape of the woman, and what look the woman is really going for.  I never found shoulders and arms sexy or suggestive anyway.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: Yvaine on April 04, 2013, 10:30:30 AM
Would a well fitting tube top made of thicker material with a corset on top be acceptable then? I don't think it would.

I think that if one choose to wear a strapless dress, they should wear some kind of cover while in church.

Even if the bride checks with the pastor/officiant beforehand and is assured there are no rules or guidelines regarding strapless gowns or bare shoulders?

This. I really think each church's modesty standards should be left up to that church--there's no universal rule that applies to all congregations, all denominations, all faiths.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: TurtleDove on April 04, 2013, 10:42:57 AM
A strapless dress can look modest, and a sleeved dress can look obscene.  It all depends on the cut, the shape of the woman, and what look the woman is really going for.  I never found shoulders and arms sexy or suggestive anyway.

Agreed.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: violinp on April 04, 2013, 10:45:19 AM
A strapless dress can look modest, and a sleeved dress can look obscene.  It all depends on the cut, the shape of the woman, and what look the woman is really going for.  I never found shoulders and arms sexy or suggestive anyway.

Agreed.

POD. I've seen wedding dresses, both strapless and sleeved, that I wouldn't wear except in the bedroom.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: MerryCat on April 04, 2013, 10:53:50 AM
Would a well fitting tube top made of thicker material with a corset on top be acceptable then? I don't think it would.

I think that if one choose to wear a strapless dress, they should wear some kind of cover while in church.


That should be left up to the church.

I'm going to park my POD here. Every place of worship has its own standards for modesty and, as long as the HC check and and gets approval from the PTB first, I'm not sure it is anyone else's business what the bride wears. It's not disrespectful to wear something that is explicitly permited by your place of worship to your wedding.

Okay, maybe if you show up to church dressed like a Vegas showgirl, complete with feathers, sequis and tassels on your wossnames people get to judge a little. But then again, there are probably 24 hour wedding chapels in Vegas where this would be perfectly appropriate.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: Sharnita on April 04, 2013, 11:01:49 AM
For that matter, there are some relious sects that believe wearing a garment that has a zipper is inappropriate. 
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: Poppea on April 04, 2013, 11:06:06 AM
There is no comparison between a tube top and the dress pictured. 

Yes, the dress has a plunging neckline but the V is very narrow.  It looks comfortable, elegant and perfectly suitable for a church Wedding in most major denominations.

To be fair, the dress pictured is NOT strapless.  It is sleeveless.  You are comparing apples and oranges.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: Sharnita on April 04, 2013, 11:16:59 AM
As far as coverage, some people might find this more modest:


http://shop.nordstrom.com/s/adrianna-papell-pleat-bodice-rosette-ballgown/3136583?origin=category&contextualcategoryid=0&fashionColor=Ivory&resultback=2436




than this:


http://shop.nordstrom.com/s/bcbgmaxazria-lace-inset-knot-front-silk-chiffon-gown/3375265?origin=category&contextualcategoryid=0&fashionColor=&resultback=2549

Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: Rohanna on April 04, 2013, 11:24:41 AM
I just don't see why it's okay to be rude and judgemental about a common dress style - it really smacks of something ... almost a shaming of sorts. I don't like sleeves on most dresses (I think they add bulk and look dated) but outside of using it as an example in this thread, I don't go around saying that everyone who wears one must belong to a repressive society or feel body-shame. I don't go on about how difficult they must find it to move and how silly they look. I dont compare sleeved gowns to a parka anymore than a formal strapless gown should be compared to a Spandex tube top- thats almost inflammatory. Yet, in spite of many brides such as myself saying we were comfortable, felt dressed appropriately for our venue, and liked our dresses there are posters who seem incapable of stepping outside their own church or personal comfort level to see that. I don't care for short wedding dresses either - but again, I do not make
Judgemental comments about people who buy them.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: Hmmmmm on April 04, 2013, 11:48:09 AM
I just don't see why it's okay to be rude and judgemental about a common dress style - it really smacks of something ... almost a shaming of sorts. I don't like sleeves on most dresses (I think they add bulk and look dated) but outside of using it as an example in this thread, I don't go around saying that everyone who wears one must belong to a repressive society or feel body-shame. I don't go on about how difficult they must find it to move and how silly they look. I dont compare sleeved gowns to a parka anymore than a formal strapless gown should be compared to a Spandex tube top- thats almost inflammatory. Yet, in spite of many brides such as myself saying we were comfortable, felt dressed appropriately for our venue, and liked our dresses there are posters who seem incapable of stepping outside their own church or personal comfort level to see that. I don't care for short wedding dresses either - but again, I do not make
Judgemental comments about people who buy them.

Rohanna, I'm hope the comments I made didn't appear to be judgemental about about the people who buy them. I think the majority of acknowledge it is the current fashion and considered completely accpetable by the majority of the Western population.

The thread was asking for opinions about a Miss Manner's column. The vast majority of posters believe her statements are outdated, old fashioned, and mean spirited.

A very tiny minority of us have said, either we understand why she has said what she said based on the historical role of a strapless dress and/or that they share a similar opinion.

It sort of like discussing wearing white after labor day. Some people were raised where it wasn't done and they will never personally be able to do it and always find it odd when others do. If the thread had been on that topic instead and a large number said "I where white during the Fall", should the non-white wearers not be allowed to share their opinions that tradition in the US South religates white to the summer months only?

Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: Yvaine on April 04, 2013, 11:54:40 AM
I just don't see why it's okay to be rude and judgemental about a common dress style - it really smacks of something ... almost a shaming of sorts. I don't like sleeves on most dresses (I think they add bulk and look dated) but outside of using it as an example in this thread, I don't go around saying that everyone who wears one must belong to a repressive society or feel body-shame. I don't go on about how difficult they must find it to move and how silly they look. I dont compare sleeved gowns to a parka anymore than a formal strapless gown should be compared to a Spandex tube top- thats almost inflammatory. Yet, in spite of many brides such as myself saying we were comfortable, felt dressed appropriately for our venue, and liked our dresses there are posters who seem incapable of stepping outside their own church or personal comfort level to see that. I don't care for short wedding dresses either - but again, I do not make
Judgemental comments about people who buy them.

Rohanna, I'm hope the comments I made didn't appear to be judgemental about about the people who buy them. I think the majority of acknowledge it is the current fashion and considered completely accpetable by the majority of the Western population.

The thread was asking for opinions about a Miss Manner's column. The vast majority of posters believe her statements are outdated, old fashioned, and mean spirited.

A very tiny minority of us have said, either we understand why she has said what she said based on the historical role of a strapless dress and/or that they share a similar opinion.

It sort of like discussing wearing white after labor day. Some people were raised where it wasn't done and they will never personally be able to do it and always find it odd when others do. If the thread had been on that topic instead and a large number said "I where white during the Fall", should the non-white wearers not be allowed to share their opinions that tradition in the US South religates white to the summer months only?

There have been blanket statements about such a dress being "disrespectful," even in the face of posters discussing how these dresses were approved by the clergyperson at the church they were married in. Comments about how you, personally, couldn't wear one because you were raised that way are not really the problem, IMO.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: Judah on April 04, 2013, 12:02:23 PM
There have been blanket statements about such a dress being "disrespectful," even in the face of posters discussing how these dresses were approved by the clergyperson at the church they were married in. Comments about how you, personally, couldn't wear one because you were raised that way are not really the problem, IMO.

It's not rude to have an opinion as long as you express it politely. Saying, "I find wearing strapless dresses in a house of worship disrespectful" is not rude. We are allowed to have opinions and express them even when those opinions aren't popular.  I haven't seen a post where someone said anything like, "anyone who wears a strapless gown might as well sew a scarlet letter onto it." That would be rude.

Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: Hmmmmm on April 04, 2013, 12:07:31 PM
There have been blanket statements about such a dress being "disrespectful," even in the face of posters discussing how these dresses were approved by the clergyperson at the church they were married in. Comments about how you, personally, couldn't wear one because you were raised that way are not really the problem, IMO.

It's not rude to have an opinion as long as you express it politely. Saying, "I find wearing strapless dresses in a house of worship disrespectful" is not rude. We are allowed to have opinions and express them even when those opinions aren't popular.  I haven't seen a post where someone said anything like, "anyone who wears a strapless gown might as well sew a scarlet letter onto it." That would be rude.

I went back and read the posts of the minority.

One said they found strapless in a church tacky and another said they agreed with that person and believe a covering should be worn with the dress during the church ceremony.

I don't find either of those statements to be judgemental of the individuals but of a style.

Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: lady_disdain on April 04, 2013, 12:13:24 PM
There have been blanket statements about such a dress being "disrespectful," even in the face of posters discussing how these dresses were approved by the clergyperson at the church they were married in. Comments about how you, personally, couldn't wear one because you were raised that way are not really the problem, IMO.

It's not rude to have an opinion as long as you express it politely. Saying, "I find wearing strapless dresses in a house of worship disrespectful" is not rude. We are allowed to have opinions and express them even when those opinions aren't popular.  I haven't seen a post where someone said anything like, "anyone who wears a strapless gown might as well sew a scarlet letter onto it." That would be rude.

I went back and read the posts of the minority.

One said they found strapless in a church tacky and another said they agreed with that person and believe a covering should be worn with the dress during the church ceremony.

I don't find either of those statements to be judgemental of the individuals but of a style.



It is rather naive to believe that criticizing a style says nothing of the person who chooses that style.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: Yvaine on April 04, 2013, 12:21:13 PM
There have been blanket statements about such a dress being "disrespectful," even in the face of posters discussing how these dresses were approved by the clergyperson at the church they were married in. Comments about how you, personally, couldn't wear one because you were raised that way are not really the problem, IMO.

It's not rude to have an opinion as long as you express it politely. Saying, "I find wearing strapless dresses in a house of worship disrespectful" is not rude. We are allowed to have opinions and express them even when those opinions aren't popular.  I haven't seen a post where someone said anything like, "anyone who wears a strapless gown might as well sew a scarlet letter onto it." That would be rude.

I went back and read the posts of the minority.

One said they found strapless in a church tacky and another said they agreed with that person and believe a covering should be worn with the dress during the church ceremony.

I don't find either of those statements to be judgemental of the individuals but of a style.



It is rather naive to believe that criticizing a style says nothing of the person who chooses that style.

This. Especially with a word like disrespectful. If you say it's ugly, well, that's just your aesthetics. But "disrespectful" is an attempt to analyze the motives and feelings of the person wearing the style.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: Spring Water on Sundays on April 04, 2013, 12:30:08 PM
There have been blanket statements about such a dress being "disrespectful," even in the face of posters discussing how these dresses were approved by the clergyperson at the church they were married in. Comments about how you, personally, couldn't wear one because you were raised that way are not really the problem, IMO.

It's not rude to have an opinion as long as you express it politely. Saying, "I find wearing strapless dresses in a house of worship disrespectful" is not rude. We are allowed to have opinions and express them even when those opinions aren't popular.  I haven't seen a post where someone said anything like, "anyone who wears a strapless gown might as well sew a scarlet letter onto it." That would be rude.

I agree that it's not rude to hold or express an unpopular opinion in a polite manner. I also agree that most comments in this thread have been very polite (the tone of some has been terse on both sides). However, when an opinion is unpopular or puzzling to others, you are probably going to be asked to clarify. A couple of posters stated that they think brides in strapless gowns are being disrespectful if the ceremony is of a religious nature. They have been asked to clarify if they meant that as a rule across the board, no exceptions, or if they thought bare shoulders would be still be disrespectful (and to whom) if the bride inquires beforehand and is assured that the church has no such restriction or guideline. The "and to whom" part is most important to me in my understanding of this belief because I do not believe that disrespect can exist in a vacuum - there has to be a disrespected party.

I really am puzzled by this belief and I want to understand it, especially because I have been characterized as disrespectful and I don't know why. That's an ugly thing to be accused of.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: Firecat on April 04, 2013, 12:43:05 PM
I'd also like to point out that not every religion has even similar beliefs about what's respectful. For example, I'm Wiccan. Technically, if I'd wanted to, I could have gotten married wearing nothing but a smile and my new wedding ring (aka "skyclad"), and been perfectly respectful in terms of my religion. I didn't do that for many reasons...but it would have been a valid choice. So I think it's important to consider the couple's religious traditions/beliefs, among other things.

Every bride should abide by what's considered appropriate for the venue and her personal/family beliefs around such issues. So long as she does so, I don't think it's fair or correct to consider her "disrespectful". It's fine to say "I personally wouldn't be comfortable doing that," but making a blanket statement that it's disrespectful does come across as judgemental.

For the record, my actual wedding dress was a Renaissance-style dress; it showed a bit of cleavage, but nothing extreme, and had full sleeves. But it wasn't a traditional wedding dress in the modern sense - it was in shades of green with gold-colored trim. So was I disrespectful for choosing a "nontraditional" style and color? Even though green is associated with fertility, the Earth, and lots of other positive things by many Wiccans and other pagans?
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: Hmmmmm on April 04, 2013, 12:46:45 PM
There have been blanket statements about such a dress being "disrespectful," even in the face of posters discussing how these dresses were approved by the clergyperson at the church they were married in. Comments about how you, personally, couldn't wear one because you were raised that way are not really the problem, IMO.

It's not rude to have an opinion as long as you express it politely. Saying, "I find wearing strapless dresses in a house of worship disrespectful" is not rude. We are allowed to have opinions and express them even when those opinions aren't popular.  I haven't seen a post where someone said anything like, "anyone who wears a strapless gown might as well sew a scarlet letter onto it." That would be rude.

I went back and read the posts of the minority.

One said they found strapless in a church tacky and another said they agreed with that person and believe a covering should be worn with the dress during the church ceremony.

I don't find either of those statements to be judgemental of the individuals but of a style.



It is rather naive to believe that criticizing a style says nothing of the person who chooses that style.

This. Especially with a word like disrespectful. If you say it's ugly, well, that's just your aesthetics. But "disrespectful" is an attempt to analyze the motives and feelings of the person wearing the style.
The only use of "disrespectful" (other than people saying people said it was disrespectful) was one poster who said "it seems disrespectful to me."

We had a thread recently about asking "What?" when you didn't hear someone clearly and some had the opinion that it seemed disrespectful to use What.  I didn't hear anyone claim that they felt they were being called out as being disprectful if they said they used the word.

Is this some how different?  I'm not being contrary, I'm really curious. We have lots of threads where people have vastly different opinions. Is this one different because it someone felt the poster was implying the dress wearer was disrespectful to their church? Or is it an emtional tie to your wedding?
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: Judah on April 04, 2013, 12:50:21 PM
There have been blanket statements about such a dress being "disrespectful," even in the face of posters discussing how these dresses were approved by the clergyperson at the church they were married in. Comments about how you, personally, couldn't wear one because you were raised that way are not really the problem, IMO.

It's not rude to have an opinion as long as you express it politely. Saying, "I find wearing strapless dresses in a house of worship disrespectful" is not rude. We are allowed to have opinions and express them even when those opinions aren't popular.  I haven't seen a post where someone said anything like, "anyone who wears a strapless gown might as well sew a scarlet letter onto it." That would be rude.

I agree that it's not rude to hold or express an unpopular opinion in a polite manner. I also agree that most comments in this thread have been very polite (some have been borderline on both sides). However, when an opinion is unpopular or puzzling to others, you are probably going to be asked to clarify. A couple of posters stated that they think brides in strapless gowns are being disrespectful if the ceremony is of a religious nature. They have been asked to clarify if they meant that as a rule across the board, no exceptions, or if they thought bare shoulders would be still be disrespectful (and to whom) if the bride inquires beforehand and is assured that the church has no such restriction or guideline. The "and to whom" part is most important to me in my understanding of this belief because I do not believe that disrespect can exist in a vacuum - there has to be a disrespected party.

I really am puzzled by this belief and I want to understand it, especially because I have been characterized as disrespectful and I don't know why. That's an ugly thing to be accused of.

I would be happy to clarify for you, but I don't happen to agree with that particular opinion. And I'd be pretty hypocritical if I did. Though my dress had a high Victorian collar and sleeves, it was pretty risque in other ways.  I was really only responding to the idea that expressing an opinion that others don't like is rude.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: Spring Water on Sundays on April 04, 2013, 12:59:11 PM
There have been blanket statements about such a dress being "disrespectful," even in the face of posters discussing how these dresses were approved by the clergyperson at the church they were married in. Comments about how you, personally, couldn't wear one because you were raised that way are not really the problem, IMO.

It's not rude to have an opinion as long as you express it politely. Saying, "I find wearing strapless dresses in a house of worship disrespectful" is not rude. We are allowed to have opinions and express them even when those opinions aren't popular.  I haven't seen a post where someone said anything like, "anyone who wears a strapless gown might as well sew a scarlet letter onto it." That would be rude.

I agree that it's not rude to hold or express an unpopular opinion in a polite manner. I also agree that most comments in this thread have been very polite (some have been borderline on both sides). However, when an opinion is unpopular or puzzling to others, you are probably going to be asked to clarify. A couple of posters stated that they think brides in strapless gowns are being disrespectful if the ceremony is of a religious nature. They have been asked to clarify if they meant that as a rule across the board, no exceptions, or if they thought bare shoulders would be still be disrespectful (and to whom) if the bride inquires beforehand and is assured that the church has no such restriction or guideline. The "and to whom" part is most important to me in my understanding of this belief because I do not believe that disrespect can exist in a vacuum - there has to be a disrespected party.

I really am puzzled by this belief and I want to understand it, especially because I have been characterized as disrespectful and I don't know why. That's an ugly thing to be accused of.

I would be happy to clarify for you, but I don't happen to agree with that particular opinion. And I'd be pretty hypocritical if I did. Though my dress had a high Victorian collar and sleeves, it was pretty risque in other ways.  I was really only responding to the idea that expressing an opinion that others don't like is rude.

Well, in that case we are in agreement, depending, of course, on how the dissenting opinion is expressed :)
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: Yvaine on April 04, 2013, 01:06:33 PM
For the record, my actual wedding dress was a Renaissance-style dress; it showed a bit of cleavage, but nothing extreme, and had full sleeves. But it wasn't a traditional wedding dress in the modern sense - it was in shades of green with gold-colored trim. So was I disrespectful for choosing a "nontraditional" style and color? Even though green is associated with fertility, the Earth, and lots of other positive things by many Wiccans and other pagans?

 ;D If my current plans hold, I'll be getting married in a dress that has full sleeves...and is dark purple!

There have been blanket statements about such a dress being "disrespectful," even in the face of posters discussing how these dresses were approved by the clergyperson at the church they were married in. Comments about how you, personally, couldn't wear one because you were raised that way are not really the problem, IMO.

It's not rude to have an opinion as long as you express it politely. Saying, "I find wearing strapless dresses in a house of worship disrespectful" is not rude. We are allowed to have opinions and express them even when those opinions aren't popular.  I haven't seen a post where someone said anything like, "anyone who wears a strapless gown might as well sew a scarlet letter onto it." That would be rude.

I went back and read the posts of the minority.

One said they found strapless in a church tacky and another said they agreed with that person and believe a covering should be worn with the dress during the church ceremony.

I don't find either of those statements to be judgemental of the individuals but of a style.



It is rather naive to believe that criticizing a style says nothing of the person who chooses that style.

This. Especially with a word like disrespectful. If you say it's ugly, well, that's just your aesthetics. But "disrespectful" is an attempt to analyze the motives and feelings of the person wearing the style.
The only use of "disrespectful" (other than people saying people said it was disrespectful) was one poster who said "it seems disrespectful to me."

We had a thread recently about asking "What?" when you didn't hear someone clearly and some had the opinion that it seemed disrespectful to use What.  I didn't hear anyone claim that they felt they were being called out as being disprectful if they said they used the word.

Is this some how different?  I'm not being contrary, I'm really curious. We have lots of threads where people have vastly different opinions. Is this one different because it someone felt the poster was implying the dress wearer was disrespectful to their church? Or is it an emtional tie to your wedding?

It's not always the same posters in every thread.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: Erich L-ster on April 04, 2013, 03:00:25 PM
I think these are the posts that are causing the most offense. I really just can't comprehend the tube top comparison.

Overall, I think strapless gowns in churches are tacky. For an outdoor wedding or another venue, sure if that's what the bride wants. I agree with the idea that if you wouldn't wear a tube top to church, why would you wear something that amounts to the same (lack of) coverage to what is arguably the most important religious ceremony of your life? It seems direspectful to me.

I also find strapless dresses completely boring anymore. It seems like everyone wears the same fit & flair/mermaid strapless dresses anymore, the only differences being details like lace or beading. Brides have become very cookie cutter in the last few years. I'd rather see a bride dressed like Duchess Catherine; at least she looked appropriate, pretty and respectful (regardless of whether you like her personally or not). Or a different color; wedding gowns do not have to be white...that's simply a fashion trend that no one is required to stick to. But these dull, white strapless gowns are just overdone.


SamiHami equated it to a tube top in terms of coverage.

I agree with her entire post.
Would a well fitting tube top made of thicker material with a corset on top be acceptable then? I don't think it would.

I think that if one choose to wear a strapless dress, they should wear some kind of cover while in church.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: SiotehCat on April 04, 2013, 03:21:57 PM
I think these are the posts that are causing the most offense. I really just can't comprehend the tube top comparison.

Overall, I think strapless gowns in churches are tacky. For an outdoor wedding or another venue, sure if that's what the bride wants. I agree with the idea that if you wouldn't wear a tube top to church, why would you wear something that amounts to the same (lack of) coverage to what is arguably the most important religious ceremony of your life? It seems direspectful to me.

I also find strapless dresses completely boring anymore. It seems like everyone wears the same fit & flair/mermaid strapless dresses anymore, the only differences being details like lace or beading. Brides have become very cookie cutter in the last few years. I'd rather see a bride dressed like Duchess Catherine; at least she looked appropriate, pretty and respectful (regardless of whether you like her personally or not). Or a different color; wedding gowns do not have to be white...that's simply a fashion trend that no one is required to stick to. But these dull, white strapless gowns are just overdone.


SamiHami equated it to a tube top in terms of coverage.

I agree with her entire post.
Would a well fitting tube top made of thicker material with a corset on top be acceptable then? I don't think it would.

I think that if one choose to wear a strapless dress, they should wear some kind of cover while in church.

I don't see how any of those statements are offensive.

It really feel like any kind of disagreement with the majority in this thread is not going to be received well.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: MrsJWine on April 04, 2013, 03:28:40 PM
It's very... odd to me to claim that a tube top is the same as a strapless gown. It's like comparing a maxi dress beach coverup to a long evening gown. Each are appropriate in their own intended contexts, but they're not at all comparable in any way other than the amount of skin they cover.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: Eeep! on April 04, 2013, 03:31:23 PM
Regarding the "disrespectful" discussion, I believe that another poster said that she thought that in order for there to be disrespect, there must be someone to be disrespected. I agree with this completely.

What if someone's religion expressly believed that the MOST respectful attire was to be "skyclad".
Would someone of that belief who participated in their wedding ceremony skyclad be disrespectful just because the prevailing majority opinion is that it is disrespectful to get married in the buff? I would say absolutely not.
While that is an extreme example, I think that it can be scaled down to the discussion at hand.  Brides on this thread have stated that they asked their clergy if strapless dresses were appropriate and they were told they were.  So who is being disrespected?

 (I love the term "skyclad", by the way.  Is it specific to ceremonial situations or am I allowed to refer to my preschooler - whose favorite state is nude - as skyclad?)
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: Eeep! on April 04, 2013, 03:32:54 PM
It's very... odd to me to claim that a tube top is the same as a strapless gown. It's like comparing a maxi dress beach coverup to a long evening gown. Each are appropriate in their own intended contexts, but they're not at all comparable in any way other than the amount of skin they cover.

Totally agree with this.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: WillyNilly on April 04, 2013, 03:33:35 PM
I have to agree there is some palpable hate for strapless dresses going on in some posts. And a lot of assumptions - it really does come across in this thread as though getting married in a church is the way people get married and not merely a way. I have been to more ceremonies not in churches then in churches, so to me the assumption of church alone is a pretty big leap. My ceremony was under the open sky, as was my BBF's and my brother's, and a few other friend's. Several weddings I've been to have been in catering halls, one was in a family home, another in a restaurant. And certainly countless people get married at City or Town Hall (and not just standing before a clerk, in a nice private room, with dozens of guests and flowers and dressed up). One of my friend's was married in a casino in Vegas and the ceremony live streamed over the internet.

All of these weddings were taken seriously. And in fact of all the people I know who have divorced (my generation or prior generations) they have only been people who had church weddings. All the secular weddings (and true enough plenty of church weddings) have resulted in lasting unions. So really tying the idea of taking the importance of the occasion and tying it to churches and the dress code for some churches is in of itself disrespectful. Attending and getting married in a church doesn't mean someone is any more serious then someone who does not, nor does the shape or color of a dress bespeak to the solemness of the occasion. I got married in full on red. Because it was beautiful and to me, wearing a color I felt beautiful in wasn't about vanity but about honoring the occasion and my husband. And thats also why I wore strapless. I had my dress custom made - I could have had any style. But to me, and on me, strapless is elegant, and timeless and flattering.

Many strapless dresses are much more covered up then plenty of sleeved or strap dresses:

More Revealing:
http://m-lifeweddingdress.en.alibaba.com/product/585349969-213390509/WW7760_boutique_low_cut_short_sleeves_wedding_dress.html
http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/690266047/WA0392_Sexy_v_neckline_cap_sleeve/showimage.html
http://blog.theknot.com/2012/10/12/bridal-fashion-week-trends-lace-sleeves-ruffles-and-low-backs/

To me these figure revealing dresses with cleavage and nearly-butt-crack-cleavage are a lot more risque then the modest full coverage poofy concoctions most strapless dresses are!

Less revealing:
http://www.yesmybride.com/strapless-full-a-line-gown-with-two-tiered-pick-up-skirt-403.html
http://www.noviamor.com/ball-gown-strapless-pickup-skirt-beach-wedding-dress-with-blue-sash-nw1069-p-1069.html
http://www.myspiritandsoul.com/online-gorgeous-ball-gown-strapless-cathedral-train-organza-wedding-dress-5245.html

Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: MizA on April 04, 2013, 03:41:52 PM
I have to agree there is some palpable hate for strapless dresses going on in some posts. And a lot of assumptions - it really does come across in this thread as though getting married in a church is the way people get married and not merely a way.

POD.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: Sharnita on April 04, 2013, 03:44:45 PM
I think experience could really skew those assumptions, too.  For some a clean shaven man is a disgrace.  I certainly wouldn't apply that standard to everyone or expect them to accpet it as a universal truth. 
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: Moray on April 04, 2013, 03:46:13 PM
I have to agree there is some palpable hate for strapless dresses going on in some posts. And a lot of assumptions - it really does come across in this thread as though getting married in a church is the way people get married and not merely a way.

POD.

I got the same impression.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: Margo on April 04, 2013, 03:50:53 PM
I think these are the posts that are causing the most offense. I really just can't comprehend the tube top comparison.

Overall, I think strapless gowns in churches are tacky. For an outdoor wedding or another venue, sure if that's what the bride wants. I agree with the idea that if you wouldn't wear a tube top to church, why would you wear something that amounts to the same (lack of) coverage to what is arguably the most important religious ceremony of your life? It seems direspectful to me.

I also find strapless dresses completely boring anymore. It seems like everyone wears the same fit & flair/mermaid strapless dresses anymore, the only differences being details like lace or beading. Brides have become very cookie cutter in the last few years. I'd rather see a bride dressed like Duchess Catherine; at least she looked appropriate, pretty and respectful (regardless of whether you like her personally or not). Or a different color; wedding gowns do not have to be white...that's simply a fashion trend that no one is required to stick to. But these dull, white strapless gowns are just overdone.


SamiHami equated it to a tube top in terms of coverage.

I agree with her entire post.
Would a well fitting tube top made of thicker material with a corset on top be acceptable then? I don't think it would.

I think that if one choose to wear a strapless dress, they should wear some kind of cover while in church.

I don't see how any of those statements are offensive.

It really feel like any kind of disagreement with the majority in this thread is not going to be received well.

I think where it causes offence is calling what numerous people in the thread have described as their own experience as being"tacky" and "disrespectful". Particularly when no rationale is given. It's possible to express disagreement without insulting the people you disagree with.

(My own personal view is that there is nothing inherently wrong with wearing a strapless gown. I also believe that there are situations where it *would * be inappropriate, but I think they are situational - if you're marrying in a church / synagogue / denomination where the norm is for more "modest" clothing, for instance.

I would be very interested in hearing (from those who feel strapless gowns are not appropriate) as to why they feel this way? SitohCat  said that brides "should" cover up in church, and SamiHami I think said something similar - why, specifically? I'm genuinely curious as to why you  feel that way. (I understand SamiHami's view that strapless dresses are 'same-y' and overdone - I don't entirely agree, but I understand! - to me, that might be a reason to chose something different, if you want a dress which is more distinctive, but I don't see having a generic dress as being tacky or disrespectful or inappropriate.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: whiterose on April 04, 2013, 04:05:45 PM
Strapless dresses and tube tops are not for me. They look ridiculous on me, given the way I am built. And they are not comfortable either- again, given my body type.

But I am not going to flame somebody for wearing one. It is not my body, my wedding, or my business.

On the other hand, I do wish bridal companies would make more styles with sleeves. I am a modest person who does not feel comfortable showing that much skin- especially on my wedding day, when all eyes will be on me. If I were just another guest at a banquet or ball, I may wear something with thick straps or sleeveless- although I would still bring a shawl. But to MY own wedding, I will need at least cap sleeves, back coverage (I need support given the way I am cut), AND a shawl. On such an important day, I need to look good and be comfortable- all other factors will be making me nervous enough.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: Firecat on April 04, 2013, 04:09:27 PM
Regarding the "disrespectful" discussion, I believe that another poster said that she thought that in order for there to be disrespect, there must be someone to be disrespected. I agree with this completely.

What if someone's religion expressly believed that the MOST respectful attire was to be "skyclad".
Would someone of that belief who participated in their wedding ceremony skyclad be disrespectful just because the prevailing majority opinion is that it is disrespectful to get married in the buff? I would say absolutely not.
While that is an extreme example, I think that it can be scaled down to the discussion at hand.  Brides on this thread have stated that they asked their clergy if strapless dresses were appropriate and they were told they were.  So who is being disrespected?

 (I love the term "skyclad", by the way.  Is it specific to ceremonial situations or am I allowed to refer to my preschooler - whose favorite state is nude - as skyclad?)

Re: the bolded, go for it  ;D. Just be aware that some other folks who hear it and are familiar with the term may assume that you're some variety of pagan. It's not specifically a ceremonial or religious term, just one that has associations with the pagan community.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: Tabby Uprising on April 04, 2013, 04:13:29 PM
While I certainly don't believe that strapless = "tacky" (I despise that word) or "disrespectful", I do think the posters who feel that way have emphasized that if you get married in the church they consider it disrespectful.  I don't see them inferring that church weddings are the only way to go and I know some have even specified that strapless doesn't bother them in a non-church ceremony.  I think if church weddings are being emphasized it's because that's where they feel it becomes disrespectful. 

The idea that they are boring would apply to all ceremonies.  Yay?  But hey, why are brides getting all the scrutiny here?  If we're talking boring, I haven't seen much in cutting edge wedding attire couture for the grooms. 
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: mmswm on April 04, 2013, 04:36:27 PM
I personally don't like strapless dresses.  On me. My own dress was an off the shoulder type ball gown. Sort of like this, but with a wider strap that covered more of the shoulder.  I know I don't have any digital pictures of my own gown, so this was the best I could find.

http://www.davidsbridal.com/Product_Ball-Gown-with-Illusion-Straps-and-Button-Back-PWG3442_Bridal-Gowns-Shop-By-Silhouette-Ball-Gown

That said, while I personally don't like the look of strapless, there are many women who look lovely in them, and as long as the church/temple/synagogue doesn't object, then I don't  see the problem. 
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: DottyG on April 04, 2013, 04:40:34 PM
Quote
(Plus: There are still debutantes these days?)

Haven't read the thread, yet, but I can respond to the above.

Yes.  I was one.  White dress and all.

Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: LadyL on April 04, 2013, 04:43:24 PM
While I certainly don't believe that strapless = "tacky" (I despise that word) or "disrespectful"

I don't like tacky either, because tacky is a matter of taste, not etiquette. Disrespectful in the context of etiquette suggests to me something like "ignoring a stated dress code" (i.e. wearing sweat pants to a black tie affair). If the stated dress code of a house of worship does not prohibit strapless it is not disrespectful.

It also makes me think about the outdated argument that a woman who dresses "provocatively" doesn't respect herself.

More on tacky here: http://offbeatbride.com/2008/07/tacky
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: whiterose on April 04, 2013, 06:09:46 PM
Of the 5 couples I know that have gotten married this year:

Three of the brides wore strapless dresses. One of them got married in a church (albeit a laid-back, progressive one). The other two got married outdoors.

The other 2 brides wore dresses with cap sleeves. One got married in a Greek Orthodox church. The other one got married in a restaurant.

Will update more after Saturday, since two other couples I know will be getting married that day.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: Piratelvr1121 on April 04, 2013, 06:41:53 PM
Mine wasn't what most would consider a wedding gown, I'm sure, as it was silver/gray with shamrocks embroidered in it with silver thread and had straps but no sleeves.  But then I got married in a courthouse.

I wouldn't be comfortable wearing a sleeveless dress in a church, though, as I just can't shake the old notion of not showing one's shoulders or knees. 
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: Aeris on April 04, 2013, 08:07:57 PM
While I certainly don't believe that strapless = "tacky" (I despise that word) or "disrespectful", I do think the posters who feel that way have emphasized that if you get married in the church they consider it disrespectful.  I don't see them inferring that church weddings are the only way to go and I know some have even specified that strapless doesn't bother them in a non-church ceremony. I think if church weddings are being emphasized it's because that's where they feel it becomes disrespectful. 

The idea that they are boring would apply to all ceremonies.  Yay?  But hey, why are brides getting all the scrutiny here?  If we're talking boring, I haven't seen much in cutting edge wedding attire couture for the grooms.

Okay, so these posters aren't making weird blanket rules for all weddings ever, they are just making weird blanket rules for all religious weddings. Still not cool.

This attitude treats 'getting married in a church' as if 'church' only means one thing - as if religion itself is a monolithic entity where the rules, standards, and expectations are always the same. This is obviously patently false. There are not only many different religions, but within each religion many different denominations or sects, and then within those different individual church communities all with potentially *wildly divergent* standards of what decorum is expected.

It's not appropriate or polite to make a blanket statement that strapless gowns, or jeans, or coffee, or ipads, or uncovered hair, or pants on women, or men's shaved faces, or tattoos, or makeup, or anything else is "disrespectful in church" because (general) you don't get to tell me, or anyone else, how our churches-that-you-do-not-attend are supposed to function. You can say "this would be considered disrespectful in MY church". You can say "I would not be comfortable in a church where this was accepted". But you don't get to say "this thing is disrespectful in church" as if you are speaking for the monolithic entity that is 'all church'.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: Jaelle on April 04, 2013, 08:48:16 PM
It's not appropriate or polite to make a blanket statement that strapless gowns, or jeans, or coffee, or ipads, or uncovered hair, or pants on women, or men's shaved faces, or tattoos, or makeup, or anything else is "disrespectful in church" because (general) you don't get to tell me, or anyone else, how our churches-that-you-do-not-attend are supposed to function. You can say "this would be considered disrespectful in MY church". You can say "I would not be comfortable in a church where this was accepted". But you don't get to say "this thing is disrespectful in church" as if you are speaking for the monolithic entity that is 'all church'.

I agree. The pastor of the church where I was married had no problem with my (strapless) dress. The priest who married us had no problem with my (strapless) dress. The members of the church who were invited to the wedding (including my elderly aunt, a staunch member who would have taken me loudly to task had she perceived any disrespect) told me numerous times how lovely my dress was.

Who, then, was I disrespecting?  ???
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: Firecat on April 04, 2013, 09:06:00 PM
While I certainly don't believe that strapless = "tacky" (I despise that word) or "disrespectful", I do think the posters who feel that way have emphasized that if you get married in the church they consider it disrespectful.  I don't see them inferring that church weddings are the only way to go and I know some have even specified that strapless doesn't bother them in a non-church ceremony. I think if church weddings are being emphasized it's because that's where they feel it becomes disrespectful. 

The idea that they are boring would apply to all ceremonies.  Yay?  But hey, why are brides getting all the scrutiny here?  If we're talking boring, I haven't seen much in cutting edge wedding attire couture for the grooms.

Okay, so these posters aren't making weird blanket rules for all weddings ever, they are just making weird blanket rules for all religious weddings. Still not cool.

This attitude treats 'getting married in a church' as if 'church' only means one thing - as if religion itself is a monolithic entity where the rules, standards, and expectations are always the same. This is obviously patently false. There are not only many different religions, but within each religion many different denominations or sects, and then within those different individual church communities all with potentially *wildly divergent* standards of what decorum is expected.

It's not appropriate or polite to make a blanket statement that strapless gowns, or jeans, or coffee, or ipads, or uncovered hair, or pants on women, or men's shaved faces, or tattoos, or makeup, or anything else is "disrespectful in church" because (general) you don't get to tell me, or anyone else, how our churches-that-you-do-not-attend are supposed to function. You can say "this would be considered disrespectful in MY church". You can say "I would not be comfortable in a church where this was accepted". But you don't get to say "this thing is disrespectful in church" as if you are speaking for the monolithic entity that is 'all church'.

POD.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: Miss Tickle on April 04, 2013, 09:23:38 PM
Miss Manners should try shopping for a wedding dress. I was recently a bridesmaid (ahem) in a wedding and we spent months trying to find a great dress that wasn't strapless. The bride eventually had a cover custom made.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: Oh Joy on April 04, 2013, 10:01:06 PM
...
It's not appropriate or polite to make a blanket statement that strapless gowns, or jeans, or coffee, or ipads, or uncovered hair, or pants on women, or men's shaved faces, or tattoos, or makeup, or anything else is "disrespectful in church" because (general) you don't get to tell me, or anyone else, how our churches-that-you-do-not-attend are supposed to function. You can say "this would be considered disrespectful in MY church". You can say "I would not be comfortable in a church where this was accepted". But you don't get to say "this thing is disrespectful in church" as if you are speaking for the monolithic entity that is 'all church'.

Quoting you only for example, not to pick directly to you, Aeris...

There are many ways to see this discussion, but I think it's ending up as a bit of a sensitive topic because we're combining a very emotional event (a wedding) with a very personal venue (the physical home of our faith).

When I read comments about what one or another poster feels is appropriate to wear to church, I don't see it any deeper than 'I don't think open toed shoes are appropriate for the office,' or 'I don't think sunglasses should be worn indoors.'  They're opinions about appropriate attire, and that's the kind of thing we're on this forum to discuss.  I'm not going to split hairs about phrasing, either.

Just my two cents.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: ladyknight1 on April 04, 2013, 10:06:16 PM
I was married in 1997, and I had no problem finding my scooped neck, short sleeved dress. Of course, that is the way it was then, and now I see more "cookie cutter" dresses than unique. I love to see a happy couple make their wedding their style. I believe it is the right for everyone to choose what they want. However, I do not care for strapless gowns, and I will leave it at that.

I am baffled by the defensive responses to people's personal opinions.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: DottyG on April 04, 2013, 11:00:10 PM
Ok, I can stop all this "strapless" vs "not strapless" in a church conflict. Neither one is inappropriate attire ONCE YOU'VE WORN A SHOWER CURTAIN IN A CHURCH WEDDING!

http://www.etiquettehell.com/smf/index.php?topic=42997.msg1009198#msg1009198

See Reply #6

'Nuf said! :D

Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: Piratelvr1121 on April 05, 2013, 05:48:42 AM
Ok, I can stop all this "strapless" vs "not strapless" in a church conflict. Neither one is inappropriate attire ONCE YOU'VE WORN A SHOWER CURTAIN IN A CHURCH WEDDING!

http://www.etiquettehell.com/smf/index.php?topic=42997.msg1009198#msg1009198

See Reply #6

'Nuf said! :D

Wow. 
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: ladyknight1 on April 05, 2013, 07:12:50 AM
DottyG, you win!
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: Spring Water on Sundays on April 05, 2013, 08:10:07 AM
I was married in 1997, and I had no problem finding my scooped neck, short sleeved dress. Of course, that is the way it was then, and now I see more "cookie cutter" dresses than unique. I love to see a happy couple make their wedding their style. I believe it is the right for everyone to choose what they want. However, I do not care for strapless gowns, and I will leave it at that.

I am baffled by the defensive responses to people's personal opinions.

Personal opinion would be "Strapless gowns aren't to my taste," "I would be uncomfortable in a strapless gown in church," or "Most strapless gowns I've seen are too boring for me."

That's perfectly polite and fine. We can't all like the same things!

"Strapless gowns are not appropriate in my church," is a statement of fact. Again, fine.

When people start using words like "disrespectful" and making unkind generalizations about brides who choose such a gown in any type of religious setting, it becomes a value judgment and it doesn't feel good.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: Sharnita on April 05, 2013, 08:22:26 AM
I was married in 1997, and I had no problem finding my scooped neck, short sleeved dress. Of course, that is the way it was then, and now I see more "cookie cutter" dresses than unique. I love to see a happy couple make their wedding their style. I believe it is the right for everyone to choose what they want. However, I do not care for strapless gowns, and I will leave it at that.

I am baffled by the defensive responses to people's personal opinions.

Personal opinion would be "Strapless gowns aren't to my taste," "I would be uncomfortable in a strapless gown in church," or "Most strapless gowns I've seen are too boring for me."

That's perfectly polite and fine. We can't all like the same things!

"Strapless gowns are not appropriate in my church," is a statement of fact. Again, fine.

When people start using words like "disrespectful" and making unkind generalizations about brides who choose such a gown in any type of religious setting, it becomes a value judgment and it doesn't feel good.

Agreed.  It would be like the difference between saying "I prefer that my children _____________" and saying "Parents who let their kids ____________ don't care about their children".  While it might be a personal opinion it tends to be overstepping and vastly insulting.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: Calistoga on April 05, 2013, 08:34:04 AM
I didn't wear a strapless gown. Mine was a halter top.

(https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/5195414784/hFE7FF81C/)
(https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/291738_10150231948079649_1759455957_n.jpg)

But I think these pictures sums up how "serious" we felt the occasion was. My husband and I aren't serious people...we didn't want our wedding to be somber. For our unity ceremony, we made a lava lamp. Instead of a first dance, we got on stage and played You Give Love a Bad Name by Bon Jovi on rock band. Our ceremony ended with a Captain Planet reference and when we were pronounced husband and wife, the victory theme from Final Fantasy played and our entire wedding party struck end-of-battle poses. Our wedding was FUN! I picked the dress I picked because I liked it. It was fairly traditional, but it was pretty. Later this year we're going to a wedding where the BaG have asked everyone to wear costumes. Weddings are highly personal events that can be as serious as you make them.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: ladyknight1 on April 05, 2013, 08:39:09 AM
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-0lvQAwb1hJM/ToMrTvnMdmI/AAAAAAAAKQE/4eYjrsUDblo/s738/Wedding_13.jpg)

I walked down the aisle to the theme from "The Inner Light", which is a Star Trek: The Next Generation episode. We didn't go into debt for our wedding, and I bought my dress for $100 at the JC Penney outlet in Atlanta.

A wedding is what you make it, regardless of straps and sleeves, or type of ceremony.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: TurtleDove on April 05, 2013, 10:36:43 AM
Just adding to the "disrespectful in a church" discussion. My dad is a Missouri Synod pastor and he married both my sister me. We both wore strapless gowns. I assure you that if our attire was considered disrespectful we would have worn something else.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: whiterose on April 05, 2013, 10:38:27 AM
I didn't wear a strapless gown. Mine was a halter top.

(https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/5195414784/hFE7FF81C/)
(https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/291738_10150231948079649_1759455957_n.jpg)

But I think these pictures sums up how "serious" we felt the occasion was. My husband and I aren't serious people...we didn't want our wedding to be somber. For our unity ceremony, we made a lava lamp. Instead of a first dance, we got on stage and played You Give Love a Bad Name by Bon Jovi on rock band. Our ceremony ended with a Captain Planet reference and when we were pronounced husband and wife, the victory theme from Final Fantasy played and our entire wedding party struck end-of-battle poses. Our wedding was FUN! I picked the dress I picked because I liked it. It was fairly traditional, but it was pretty. Later this year we're going to a wedding where the BaG have asked everyone to wear costumes. Weddings are highly personal events that can be as serious as you make them.

Between the Captain Planet reference and the Final Fantasy fanfare, you have made my day!

I would have had such a blast at your wedding! And your dress is lovely. I read on a wedding dress personality quiz that wearing a halter dress meant that you were a practical person. Mine will need quite a bit more coverage than that, though.

But then, I am the kind of person who feel uncomfortable wearing a strapless top or dress at a picnic! Both physically (given my body type) and psychologically (given other factors).

Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: Elisabunny on April 05, 2013, 12:43:52 PM
Incidentally, for those who are not comfortable in strapless and can't find anything else, find a nearby faith community that emphasizes modesty.  They can almost certainly steer you toward either a supplier, or someone who alters "inappropriate" (for their rites) dresses.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: jedikaiti on April 05, 2013, 01:30:39 PM
Calistoga, that actually looks a lot like the gown I nearly bought, but I couldn't get it with the blue sash.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: Thipu1 on April 05, 2013, 02:02:08 PM
Let's be frank.  How many Wedding dresses have we seen that we thought did not address the importance of a marriage? I think we can say that we've seen pretty dang few. 

People getting married in houses of worship will abide by any rules that group thinks proper.  People getting married at City Hall or on Uncle Buford's ranch can choose any sort of dress that seems right.  THe dress just shouldn't scare the horses on the ranch.  ;) 

When I was a child,Wedding gowns were to be absolute, pristine white and arms had to be covered from the shoulders to the wrists.  In our little town, There was a flap over a woman who was married in the  Catholic church. She decided that pure white didn't suit her and had her dress made in a slightly warmer tone. The 'Egg-Shell Bride' was the subject of speculation about her morals for weeks after the Wedding. 

Finally, the Pastor of our church decided that a sermon was in order.  His theme was that the color of a woman's dress has nothing to do with her character.  If a woman chose to be married in red (gasp) she would be welcomed to have her Wedding in his church.

That started the buddies cackling again but the Pastor was right. Unless you know for a fact that a
certain color or style was chosen as an act of defiance instead of a personal choice, you have no right to say anything against it.

The Pastor of our Roman Catholic parish even brought up the old Jewish saying that all babies and all Brides are beautiful in the sight of God.   
 
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: ladyknight1 on April 05, 2013, 02:16:46 PM
I like your pastor!

I have been happily planning all the different vow renewal ceremonies/anniversary parties I would like to have starting next year. A different theme every year, and who doesn't love a party?
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: Calistoga on April 05, 2013, 03:48:09 PM
Quote
I would have had such a blast at your wedding! And your dress is lovely. I read on a wedding dress personality quiz that wearing a halter dress meant that you were a practical person. Mine will need quite a bit more coverage than that, though.

Heh. Well, I am practical. I think. And I had a blast, I know a lot of our guests had a blast, but of course we had a few older people who thought the wedding was just all wrong. My MIL was insistent that I had to have pearls, because... I don't know, tradition. I said heck no, pearls are oyster loogies. Some people thought it was not OK that my dress had color, because I was a first time bride. An older woman thought it was just scandalous that I didn't have a veil. I think older people will always be like that though...I'm sure in 30 years when my kids are getting married I'll be all annoyed because they're wearing animal skins and riding segways.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: LadyL on April 05, 2013, 03:57:47 PM
I think older people will always be like that though...I'm sure in 30 years when my kids are getting married I'll be all annoyed because they're wearing animal skins and riding segways.

Segways are disrespectful to those of us who can't afford them and have to walk like mortals. I mean, way to rub it in, hyper-mobile segwayers.

(puts EvilLadyL back in her cage)
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: Piratelvr1121 on April 05, 2013, 05:20:36 PM
I just remembered that the bridesmaids in my parent's wedding in 76 wore halter dresses, held in a Catholic church. My bf was a bridesmaid in her sister's wedding, also in a halter top and that was in a Greek Orthodox church.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: nuit93 on April 05, 2013, 06:14:55 PM
Quote
I would have had such a blast at your wedding! And your dress is lovely. I read on a wedding dress personality quiz that wearing a halter dress meant that you were a practical person. Mine will need quite a bit more coverage than that, though.

I said heck no, pearls are oyster loogies.

I will never look at my pearls without imagining oyster sound effects now :)
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: JeanFromBNA on April 05, 2013, 06:41:04 PM
Ok, I can stop all this "strapless" vs "not strapless" in a church conflict. Neither one is inappropriate attire ONCE YOU'VE WORN A SHOWER CURTAIN IN A CHURCH WEDDING!

http://www.etiquettehell.com/smf/index.php?topic=42997.msg1009198#msg1009198

See Reply #6

'Nuf said! :D

Pictures or it didn't happen!
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: Emmy on April 05, 2013, 07:44:11 PM
Quote
I would have had such a blast at your wedding! And your dress is lovely. I read on a wedding dress personality quiz that wearing a halter dress meant that you were a practical person. Mine will need quite a bit more coverage than that, though.

Heh. Well, I am practical. I think. And I had a blast, I know a lot of our guests had a blast, but of course we had a few older people who thought the wedding was just all wrong. My MIL was insistent that I had to have pearls, because... I don't know, tradition. I said heck no, pearls are oyster loogies. Some people thought it was not OK that my dress had color, because I was a first time bride. An older woman thought it was just scandalous that I didn't have a veil. I think older people will always be like that though...I'm sure in 30 years when my kids are getting married I'll be all annoyed because they're wearing animal skins and riding segways.

Your wedding looked fun.  It just goes to show you can't please everybody and shouldn't try.  If a bride has a traditional wedding, there will be naysayers who roll their eyes and call it 'boring' and 'cookie-cutter'.   If a couple does something unique, there are sure to be some comments on how it is all wrong. 

I went to a wedding a few years ago and the bride wore a strapless dress and looked lovely in it.  There was an older woman at my table who would not stop talking about the strapless dress and how inappropriate she thought it was.  She mentioned when her DD got married in 83, the dress had sleeves and why couldn't the bride wear a dress like that.  I guess she hadn't been to a wedding in a while and didn't keep up with current wedding styles. 
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: rose red on April 05, 2013, 08:20:19 PM
Speaking of pearls.  There's a superstition that it's bad luck to wear pearls on your wedding day because pearls represent tears.  Yet pearls seem to be the wedding jewelry for how many years now?  Things and fashion change.  Doesn't mean it's disrespectful or inappropriate.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: ladyknight1 on April 05, 2013, 08:24:43 PM
I was blessed to be given a strand of pearls that my late grandfather had given my mother on her wedding day. I wore them on my wedding day (in the picture up thread) and still do. We will celebrate 19 years together in July and our 16th wedding anniversary in October.

I am not at all superstitious.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: Katana_Geldar on April 05, 2013, 11:36:33 PM
Speaking of pearls.  There's a superstition that it's bad luck to wear pearls on your wedding day because pearls represent tears.  Yet pearls seem to be the wedding jewelry for how many years now?  Things and fashion change.  Doesn't mean it's disrespectful or inappropriate.

Tears can be for joy as well as sadness.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: booklover03 on April 06, 2013, 02:10:49 AM
Speaking of pearls.  There's a superstition that it's bad luck to wear pearls on your wedding day because pearls represent tears.  Yet pearls seem to be the wedding jewelry for how many years now?  Things and fashion change.  Doesn't mean it's disrespectful or inappropriate.

Well, dang, I broke all the rules apparently, lol. I had a strapless wedding dress and my mom bought me a pearl drop necklace to wear on my wedding day and dh bought the matching ear rings  :P.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: cattlekid on April 06, 2013, 07:59:30 AM
That is surprising to me because if we are ever caught without sleeves (wedding or no wedding!) in our Serbian Orthodox church, we are lectured on how we are going to hell and taking anyone who sees us with us.  And this is all Serbian Orthodox churches in our area, not just one or two. 

Goes to show that even within the same religion, there can be differences!

I just remembered that the bridesmaids in my parent's wedding in 76 wore halter dresses, held in a Catholic church. My bf was a bridesmaid in her sister's wedding, also in a halter top and that was in a Greek Orthodox church.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: LilacRosey on April 06, 2013, 08:53:51 PM
I think my soon to be sister in law is looking at a strapless dress but my other sister in law wore one with spagetti straps., LilacRosey
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: whiterose on April 07, 2013, 06:53:54 AM
I am ordering my wedding dress online because I do not want interference from anyone! I already know which one I want. It is very very reasonably priced. I would rather spend the money on a honeymoon.

Anyhow, regarding yesterday's two weddings:

- first bride wore a dress that may have technically been strapless or had spaghetti straps, BUT she wore a short-sleeved bolero jacket on top of it the entire time. She looked marvelous. The cake topper featured Spock and Uhura (in their Star Trek uniforms). The groom wore a suit with a blue striped tie. Not sure yet what the wedding party wore.

- second bride seems to have worn a strapless dress. She can pull one off.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: Thipu1 on April 07, 2013, 08:38:40 AM
Speaking of pearls.  There's a superstition that it's bad luck to wear pearls on your wedding day because pearls represent tears.  Yet pearls seem to be the wedding jewelry for how many years now?  Things and fashion change.  Doesn't mean it's disrespectful or inappropriate.

At our Wedding I wore a string of pearls given to me by my ILs.  They had been in her family for several generations.  We've had a few tears over the years but nothing that was devastating so I don't believe that superstition.

I still wear them for formal occasions. 
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: lady_disdain on April 07, 2013, 09:21:13 AM
Pearls are also a symbol of purity, which makes them "appropriate" for brides.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: #borecore on April 07, 2013, 09:46:01 AM
I will be wearing pearl drop earrings and a pearl bracelet to my wedding with a dress with a faux pearl and crystal neckline.

I heard that thing about pearls symbolizing tears and decided (a) I don't care, (b) if I cry it'll be happy tears, and (c) how convenient! I bought embroidered monogram handkerchiefs for me, my fiance, and our parents for the wedding, which I plan to give out the night before. If there are tears, they'll be dabbed at in style!
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: ClaireC79 on April 07, 2013, 02:03:33 PM
I thought it was opals that were meant to be unlucky as wedding jewellery
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: Cami on April 07, 2013, 05:33:05 PM
Eh, there's always someone with a negative opinion.

On my wedding day, as I came in the church, my MIL informed me that my wedding gown was "not really a wedding gown."

I just rolled my eyes at her and said, "Really. It's white, and long, and has a train. I"m certainly not going to wear it anywhere BUT my own wedding. So do tell. What's not wedding about it?"

"It doesn't have any pearls or sequins or lace! ALL wedding gowns have pearls or sequins or lace!"

"Really. My mother's wedding gown had none. And as I recall having seen YOUR mother's wedding gown, it had no pearls or sequins or lace."

Cue my FIL snickering and then (for once) coming to my defense and saying, "Dear, she's right. It's white and long and has a train. It's a wedding gown. It might not be your idea of the perfect gown but you're not wearing it or paying for it. So keep your opinions to yourself."

I think that's advice Miss Manners should take.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: ladyknight1 on April 07, 2013, 05:38:49 PM
Wow, my dress wasn't a wedding dress either, if you use those standards.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: MerryCat on April 07, 2013, 10:05:15 PM
I do wonder what she would have thought of my wedding dress. It had sleeves but the midriff was bare. It did have beading and embroidery though.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: kareng57 on April 07, 2013, 10:54:07 PM
Eh, there's always someone with a negative opinion.

On my wedding day, as I came in the church, my MIL informed me that my wedding gown was "not really a wedding gown."

I just rolled my eyes at her and said, "Really. It's white, and long, and has a train. I"m certainly not going to wear it anywhere BUT my own wedding. So do tell. What's not wedding about it?"

"It doesn't have any pearls or sequins or lace! ALL wedding gowns have pearls or sequins or lace!"

"Really. My mother's wedding gown had none. And as I recall having seen YOUR mother's wedding gown, it had no pearls or sequins or lace."

Cue my FIL snickering and then (for once) coming to my defense and saying, "Dear, she's right. It's white and long and has a train. It's a wedding gown. It might not be your idea of the perfect gown but you're not wearing it or paying for it. So keep your opinions to yourself."

I think that's advice Miss Manners should take.


Then Princess Margaret's wedding dress (from 1960 I believe) would not have qualified either.

I think it was absolutely stunning.  It was very simple - mainly tulle without ruffles, lace or a lot of other embellishments.  Likely, a lot of the design was due to her very short stature - only about 5 feet I think, even shorter than her mother.  Lots of below-waist embellishments can make a petite bride appear shorter than she actually is.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: Spring Water on Sundays on April 08, 2013, 08:18:39 AM
Eh, there's always someone with a negative opinion.

On my wedding day, as I came in the church, my MIL informed me that my wedding gown was "not really a wedding gown."

I just rolled my eyes at her and said, "Really. It's white, and long, and has a train. I"m certainly not going to wear it anywhere BUT my own wedding. So do tell. What's not wedding about it?"

"It doesn't have any pearls or sequins or lace! ALL wedding gowns have pearls or sequins or lace!"

"Really. My mother's wedding gown had none. And as I recall having seen YOUR mother's wedding gown, it had no pearls or sequins or lace."

Cue my FIL snickering and then (for once) coming to my defense and saying, "Dear, she's right. It's white and long and has a train. It's a wedding gown. It might not be your idea of the perfect gown but you're not wearing it or paying for it. So keep your opinions to yourself."

I think that's advice Miss Manners should take.

Um....even if MIL was right (she wasn't, that's completely ridiculous!) what benefit did she think telling you this at the church immediately before your wedding would have? What in the world did she expect you to do at that point??
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: Calistoga on April 08, 2013, 01:21:41 PM
What about feathers? I do declare, a wedding dress isn't a wedding dress without feathers!
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: ettiquit on April 08, 2013, 02:26:14 PM
I wonder what those more etiquettely advanced than me would have to say about the dress I will wear to my religious ceremony next month? It's not a tube top, but I am not certain you'd call the neckline conservative. FWIW, it was sold (for a very reasonable 60% off, $78) as a halter:

(http://l3.zassets.com/images/z/2/1/9/2/2/8/2192286-p-MULTIVIEW.jpg)

I know this was posted several pages ago, but wanted to tell you that I think this is absolutely gorgeous.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: #borecore on April 08, 2013, 03:07:15 PM
Thanks! I am sooo excited to wear it (wedding is in a little over a month!) -- the chiffon overlay fabric is super breezy and light.

(In another tearing-down of traditions we don't particularly care about, incidentally, my fiance actually picked it out from a pool of my top 4 after my first online dress order didn't work out -- sleeveless is cool, but I draw the line at completely translucent!)
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: Henry M on July 02, 2013, 03:42:21 AM
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-0lvQAwb1hJM/ToMrTvnMdmI/AAAAAAAAKQE/4eYjrsUDblo/s738/Wedding_13.jpg)

I walked down the aisle to the theme from "The Inner Light", which is a Star Trek: The Next Generation episode. We didn't go into debt for our wedding, and I bought my dress for $100 at the JC Penney outlet in Atlanta.

A wedding is what you make it, regardless of straps and sleeves, or type of ceremony.

I am a huge fan of Star Trek.. I loved every episode of it. the dress of yours if very beautiful.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: Pen^2 on July 02, 2013, 05:41:27 AM
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-0lvQAwb1hJM/ToMrTvnMdmI/AAAAAAAAKQE/4eYjrsUDblo/s738/Wedding_13.jpg)

I walked down the aisle to the theme from "The Inner Light", which is a Star Trek: The Next Generation episode. We didn't go into debt for our wedding, and I bought my dress for $100 at the JC Penney outlet in Atlanta.

A wedding is what you make it, regardless of straps and sleeves, or type of ceremony.

I am a huge fan of Star Trek.. I loved every episode of it. the dress of yours if very beautiful.

I love that episode also. It's the only Star Trek one to make me cry. Absolutely beautiful, and very appropriate to a celebration of choosing to spend your life with someone. I bought a DVD of the entire TNG fifth season just to be able to watch that one episode. If the music and that photo are any clue, your wedding must have been really lovely.

And yes, a wedding really is what you make it. If you want to wear a bikini and get married on the beach while doing the chicken dance, go for it. Obviously, wear clothes that are appropriate to the venue, so maybe not a bikini in a church (unless it's a very singular church), but if it's at the same standard as your Sunday best, then you're fine. You don't have to wear white, or have a diamond, or have a priest, or spend twenty thousand dollars. It's a celebration, so do it in a way that is celebratory to you.

The most expensive part of DH and my wedding was the booking fee for the registry office. DH wore his suit and I wore a white sun dress (I think it was about $30). We had two close friends as our witnesses, and that was it. We just wanted to be married, we didn't really want to spend money on a big embarrassing event. We both felt it was a rather intimate occasion and didn't feel comfortable with dozens of people watching. So there were only 5 people (minimum to make it legal) in the room. The lady who married us was really nice throughout the whole thing, which really added to the pleasant mood. Then we went out to our favourite place to eat afterwards--cheap and with hilariously bad service, but the food is fantastic. We looked quite odd, sitting in the middle of a dingy eatery wearing our suits and everything. All the other patrons had flip-flops and jeans. It was lots of fun.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: Cami on July 02, 2013, 06:51:45 AM
Eh, there's always someone with a negative opinion.

On my wedding day, as I came in the church, my MIL informed me that my wedding gown was "not really a wedding gown."

I just rolled my eyes at her and said, "Really. It's white, and long, and has a train. I"m certainly not going to wear it anywhere BUT my own wedding. So do tell. What's not wedding about it?"

"It doesn't have any pearls or sequins or lace! ALL wedding gowns have pearls or sequins or lace!"

"Really. My mother's wedding gown had none. And as I recall having seen YOUR mother's wedding gown, it had no pearls or sequins or lace."

Cue my FIL snickering and then (for once) coming to my defense and saying, "Dear, she's right. It's white and long and has a train. It's a wedding gown. It might not be your idea of the perfect gown but you're not wearing it or paying for it. So keep your opinions to yourself."

I think that's advice Miss Manners should take.

Um....even if MIL was right (she wasn't, that's completely ridiculous!) what benefit did she think telling you this at the church immediately before your wedding would have? What in the world did she expect you to do at that point??
It took me a while to understand what sort of person my MIL was and what she wanted. I didn't get it then, but I eventually realized: She didn't expect me to do anything to change. She just wanted to make me feel bad and hopefully ruin my day. That's the lovely sort of sociopath she was. She actively sought out ways to ruin people's important life moments and enjoyed seeing other people's pain. (As another example, on the day of my daughter's christening shortly after the birth, she told me I was now fat and would always be fat and my husband -- her son -- would now leave me.)
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: ladyknight1 on July 02, 2013, 07:28:23 AM
Thank you all! At the time, there was a JC Penney outlet in Atlanta. I bought the dress and crinoline there for $100 and then made my veil. It is a special day forever for us and we are celebrating year 16 in October!
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: K_Bear on July 02, 2013, 10:55:57 AM
My gown was strapless, but actually fairly modest. OK, my shoulders were not covered, but my chest was due to the cut of the dress. Straight across, covering my chest.

I WANTED a dress with with straps and sleeves. Most with sleeves/straps that I tried on were actually lower cut and exposed more than the strapless ones I tried on. Now I don't really have a problem showing a little skin, I wanted straps because I thought I wouldn't be comfortable in a strapless. But the straps and sleeves made me look shorter than I already am. Was surprised how flattering the strapless dresses were to my figure. And I had no veil, kinda silly at my age when my teenage daughters were some of my bridesmaids. :P My dress was also not white-I had the ivory over gold version of this dress:

http://www.maggiesottero.com/dress.aspx?style=S5229 (http://www.maggiesottero.com/dress.aspx?style=S5229) (Obviously not me.)

I understand in some certain religions strapless is not appropriate. Not everyone HAS a religious ceremony in a place of worship. Or in a place of worship that has such restrictions. We got married on a boat, by the captain of the boat. With the shortest ceremony ever-5 minutes long for the vows and talky talky part. And was a low-key party and hopefully fun for our guests, just what we wanted, and suits our personalities.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: SamiHami on July 02, 2013, 12:12:03 PM
My goodness, a lot of people are assigning a lot of ugly assumptions to me for simply having a different opinion than them! Yikes! Yes, I dislike strapless gowns. Yes, I think that they are disrespectful in church, as I stated in my post previously. I'm also pretty darn sure I never said anything evil or hateful about brides who disagree with me. It's just my opinion, which I am pretty sure I'm allowed to express. I also don't recall stating that everyone must agree with me. However, it sure does seem like I'm being villianized for not sharing the same opinion as some of the posters here.

Well, all I can say to that is that we are all different people and we all have different opinions and tastes about things. That doesn't make one person right and another person wrong necessarily. What is wrong is putting words in my mouth or assuming some sort of evil, hate-filled intent on my part (didn't someone say my hatred was "palpable?" What absolute and utter nonsense). No one should be so insecure in their own opinions that they can't bear the idea that someone might think differently.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: Yvaine on July 02, 2013, 12:20:34 PM
My goodness, a lot of people are assigning a lot of ugly assumptions to me for simply having a different opinion than them! Yikes! Yes, I dislike strapless gowns. Yes, I think that they are disrespectful in church, as I stated in my post previously. I'm also pretty darn sure I never said anything evil or hateful about brides who disagree with me. It's just my opinion, which I am pretty sure I'm allowed to express. I also don't recall stating that everyone must agree with me. However, it sure does seem like I'm being villianized for not sharing the same opinion as some of the posters here.

Well, all I can say to that is that we are all different people and we all have different opinions and tastes about things. That doesn't make one person right and another person wrong necessarily. What is wrong is putting words in my mouth or assuming some sort of evil, hate-filled intent on my part (didn't someone say my hatred was "palpable?" What absolute and utter nonsense). No one should be so insecure in their own opinions that they can't bear the idea that someone might think differently.

 ??? ??? ??? This post is from months ago, and I don't think anyone has brought up any of your arguments since the resurrection of it.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: lurkerwisp on July 02, 2013, 01:30:51 PM
Thank you all! At the time, there was a JC Penney outlet in Atlanta. I bought the dress and crinoline there for $100 and then made my veil. It is a special day forever for us and we are celebrating year 16 in October!

Congratulations! :D
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: emwithme on July 02, 2013, 04:03:45 PM
Miss Manners would be apoplectic about my dress then  >:D

Not only was it strapless but it was *gasp* red!!!  (I have since realised that my Grandma had 17 grandchildren; 4 of us have had "red brides" at our weddings)

I felt totally gorgeous and beautiful and wonderful.  I looked washed out in all the white/ivory/cream dresses I tried on.  It was also a bargain - £80 from eBay for the dress and the same for alterations (due to weight loss).

However, DH and I didn't have the most traditional of weddings - we were married here (http://www.ssgreatbritain.org/), I was "given away" by my best friend (who took the title "Chief Best Becka"), we had foam swords and pirate theming for the children, and a wedding cake made of six different cheeses, as well as a groom's cake - Yoda, bride's cake - Hello Kitty and a Chief Best Becka's Cake - Colin the Caterpillar (because she can't say caterpillar). 

This is a link to our wedding album on photobucket (http://s1289.photobucket.com/user/emwithme/library/)


(I would add a photo but I can't work out how to embed it!)
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: White Lotus on July 02, 2013, 04:19:31 PM
After reading the entire thread again, I think one point MM meant to make, but missed, is that a ball gown is not appropriate in the day time, and a full-length strapless dress in silk or satin is a ball gown.  In a light unconstructed cotton print, it might be a beachy sun dress, but in candlelight satin with beads and lace and boning -- it is a ball gown.  And what ball happens at eleven in the morning or four in the afternoon?    Unless it is a formal evening wedding, I think a ball gown looks like a costume, not a dress, and that is what she disapproves of.  I think it is the appropriateness of the style for the time of day and the nature of the event -- not "wedding" so much as "church/temple", "registry/JP's office", "grandmother's garden" followed by "brunch," "tea", "BBQ",  "cocktail" or "ball" -- that she is reacting, not very eloquently, to.
Wear whatever turns you on and doesn't offend the rules of your venue as far as I am concerned, and maybe a full-on strapless, boned, beaded, crinolined, spangled and laced "bride costume" is exactly what you want to wear at brunch.  Enjoy!  I think MM would prefer you wore something more brunch-like and that is what she is trying to get across.
I wore an old-fashioned style of dress native to my ethnicity at my temple wedding in the Old Country and both the US receptions.  It was definitely a "bride costume," and I couldn't have got out of doing it no matter how I tried.  At the "make it legal" stop off (long story) I wore a casual dress I had with me that was appropriate for a JP's office and, later, dinner at a nice place.  The Prof wore slacks and a sportcoat, ditto.  To haul out and put on the Native Bridal Costume and his dinner jacket (there is a Native Groom Costume, but he wouldn't do it, and I agreed) would have felt silly to us, especially in the early afternoon in a JP's office, and I think it is that to which MM really speaks. FWIW
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: Yvaine on July 02, 2013, 04:25:29 PM
After reading the entire thread again, I think one point MM meant to make, but missed, is that a ball gown is not appropriate in the day time, and a full-length strapless dress in silk or satin is a ball gown.  In a light unconstructed cotton print, it might be a beachy sun dress, but in candlelight satin with beads and lace and boning -- it is a ball gown.  And what ball happens at eleven in the morning or four in the afternoon?    Unless it is a formal evening wedding, I think a ball gown looks like a costume, not a dress, and that is what she disapproves of.  I think it is the appropriateness of the style for the time of day and the nature of the event -- not "wedding" so much as "church/temple", "registry/JP's office", "grandmother's garden" followed by "brunch," "tea", "BBQ",  "cocktail" or "ball" -- that she is reacting, not very eloquently, to.
Wear whatever turns you on and doesn't offend the rules of your venue as far as I am concerned, and maybe a full-on strapless, boned, beaded, crinolined, spangled and laced "bride costume" is exactly what you want to wear at brunch.  Enjoy!  I think MM would prefer you wore something more brunch-like and that is what she is trying to get across.

Well maybe, but she doesn't address time of day at all in the column--there's no mention of brunch or anything of the sort.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: lady_disdain on July 02, 2013, 05:12:31 PM
After reading the entire thread again, I think one point MM meant to make, but missed, is that a ball gown is not appropriate in the day time, and a full-length strapless dress in silk or satin is a ball gown.  In a light unconstructed cotton print, it might be a beachy sun dress, but in candlelight satin with beads and lace and boning -- it is a ball gown.  And what ball happens at eleven in the morning or four in the afternoon?    Unless it is a formal evening wedding, I think a ball gown looks like a costume, not a dress, and that is what she disapproves of.  I think it is the appropriateness of the style for the time of day and the nature of the event -- not "wedding" so much as "church/temple", "registry/JP's office", "grandmother's garden" followed by "brunch," "tea", "BBQ",  "cocktail" or "ball" -- that she is reacting, not very eloquently, to.
Wear whatever turns you on and doesn't offend the rules of your venue as far as I am concerned, and maybe a full-on strapless, boned, beaded, crinolined, spangled and laced "bride costume" is exactly what you want to wear at brunch.  Enjoy!  I think MM would prefer you wore something more brunch-like and that is what she is trying to get across.

True but the problem is the full length, satin, etc, not the straplessness ;) itself.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: KenveeB on July 02, 2013, 08:08:06 PM
After reading the entire thread again, I think one point MM meant to make, but missed, is that a ball gown is not appropriate in the day time, and a full-length strapless dress in silk or satin is a ball gown.  In a light unconstructed cotton print, it might be a beachy sun dress, but in candlelight satin with beads and lace and boning -- it is a ball gown.  And what ball happens at eleven in the morning or four in the afternoon?    Unless it is a formal evening wedding, I think a ball gown looks like a costume, not a dress, and that is what she disapproves of.  I think it is the appropriateness of the style for the time of day and the nature of the event -- not "wedding" so much as "church/temple", "registry/JP's office", "grandmother's garden" followed by "brunch," "tea", "BBQ",  "cocktail" or "ball" -- that she is reacting, not very eloquently, to.
Wear whatever turns you on and doesn't offend the rules of your venue as far as I am concerned, and maybe a full-on strapless, boned, beaded, crinolined, spangled and laced "bride costume" is exactly what you want to wear at brunch.  Enjoy!  I think MM would prefer you wore something more brunch-like and that is what she is trying to get across.

True but the problem is the full length, satin, etc, not the straplessness ;) itself.

Not to mention she's specifically asked if it's the shape of the sleeves or the fluffiness of the skirt that distinguishes the dress. If her problem was with dresses that look overly formal for the occasion, she had the perfect set-up for it. She chose to attack strapless gowns above everything -- even the big poufy ballgown skirt that makes a dress look much more formal than merely being strapless. So her problem is absolutely with strapless, not with too formal dresses or dresses that look like a costume.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: Katana_Geldar on July 02, 2013, 08:26:44 PM
And if she has not seen that 90% of the wedding dresses these days are strapless, then I seriously have to wonder how in touch with reality she is.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: jedikaiti on July 02, 2013, 10:17:10 PM
And if she has not seen that 90% of the wedding dresses these days are strapless, then I seriously have to wonder how in touch with reality she is.

Clearly she has not had to go dress shopping on a budget anytime in recent memory. I really wanted sleeves for my wedding, but that would have required a very expensive custom dress.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: Garden Goblin on July 02, 2013, 10:27:49 PM
I think this is a case where it is ruder to care than it is to take the not- totally- etiquette- approved action.
Title: Re: Miss Manners on strapless wedding dresses
Post by: lurkerwisp on August 06, 2013, 10:38:36 AM
And if she has not seen that 90% of the wedding dresses these days are strapless, then I seriously have to wonder how in touch with reality she is.

Clearly she has not had to go dress shopping on a budget anytime in recent memory. I really wanted sleeves for my wedding, but that would have required a very expensive custom dress.

I had the same problem.  I had really wanted to wear my grandmother's dress, which had sleeves, but it was fragile and needed repairs that cost more than a new dress.  When I tried to find something that looked even a little like it with pretty long sleeves for my January wedding my only options were beyond anything resembling my budget.  Instead I found something that I really liked, was flattering on me, and yes, also was strapless.  Something with sleeves just didn't exist in my price range.