Etiquette Hell

General Etiquette => Life...in general => Topic started by: GrammarNerd on July 16, 2013, 01:34:43 PM

Title: On what planet would this be OK? Minor update p#61
Post by: GrammarNerd on July 16, 2013, 01:34:43 PM
My kids are on a summer swim team at a local pool.  My oldest son (teenager) came out last Friday morning and asked if it was illegal for a woman to go into the boys locker room.  I told him that while I don't know if it's specifically illegal, it's just something that is NOT. DONE.

The situation: the little kid practice had just ended.  His practice had already ended so he just went in to use the restroom.  He was coming out and said that there was a mom who opened the door to the boys locker room and said to a little boy, "Did you find your goggles?"  Then she even took a step INSIDE the boys locker room.  My middle son also saw the woman in there.  Neither child knew who the woman was or who the child was; just the color of his hair.  Oldest said he kind of gave her a look but didn't say anything b/c he didn't know if he "could".

I emailed the club president and the head swim coach Friday morning and never got a response from either. (Not happy about that--not getting even an acknowledgment--but reserving judgment for now.)  Monday morning, I asked the head coach if she'd gotten my message.  She said she hadn't heard from club president, and that no, the woman shouldn't be going in there, but she couldn't really do anything without knowing who it was.  I asked if she could put something in the weekly newsletter, and she said she'd try to think of a tactful way to word it.

Fast forward to today, and something made me watch the entrance to the boys locker room.  Sure enough, I see a woman go over to the entrance (door was already open; don't know why) and she was obviously talking to someone inside.  I heard the child's name that she said.  It was somewhat distinctive, so I found the head coach and told her and pointed out the woman.  Both kids also thought that the woman in question looked like the woman they saw last week.  Told the coach that I had actually witnessed her looking in the boys locker room.  She said thanks and told me that she would have a chat with her.

Hopefully, this is now done.  (Incidentally, I told my oldest that if he ever saw a woman in the boys locker room again, he could yell a loud but polite "Get out! Women can't be in here!" or something like that.)  In the email and when talking to the coach the first time, I said that the reaction would have been a LOT different if the genders had been reversed and a man had opened the door of the girls locker room.  But still, regardless, this should NOT have happened.

There are no family locker rooms at this pool.  But still, it's in the mid-high 80s.  Beautiful weather.  If you can't trust your kid alone in the locker room, you keep him with you; he doesn't NEED to change there, or do anything except go to the bathroom.  If you need help, you get a male employee/coach to help.  You, as a woman, do NOT get to go into an opposite gender locker room.  Right?

But seriously (assuming I'm right), who would think this is OK? 
Title: Re: On what planet would this be OK?
Post by: msulinski on July 16, 2013, 01:40:22 PM
I agree that an adult should never be using the opposite-gender locker room/rest room/etc.. As a father of 2 young girls, I understand the frustration, but I have never entered a women's restroom and don't plan on it. I just take them in the men's room into a stall.

Since the children in question are older than mine (4 and 6), there is really no good reason for the adult to need to be in the locker room. This child should be able to be without parental help in a locker room, except in the case of an emergency.
Title: Re: On what planet would this be OK?
Post by: BeagleMommy on July 16, 2013, 01:42:48 PM
This is not okay by any standard.  If she was simply standing outside the boys' locker room and calling inside to her child; that would be okay.  Once she set foot inside the door it becomes problematic.
Title: Re: On what planet would this be OK?
Post by: cwm on July 16, 2013, 01:45:08 PM
Wow, that is SO not okay. Ever.

When I was a kid and my dad took me and my sister to the pool, he'd stand outside the door facing the other direction and call in to us. But we were old enough to change/go to the bathroom on our own, and he'd be waiting right outside for us when we were done. But he'd never dream of stepping in. Or even looking in. Not cool.
Title: Re: On what planet would this be OK?
Post by: Oh Joy on July 16, 2013, 01:53:56 PM
Gently put, it doesn't sound like you're genuinely asking a question...your position has been stated pretty strongly through emphasis and phrasing.

How can we help?
Title: Re: On what planet would this be OK?
Post by: GrammarNerd on July 16, 2013, 01:57:49 PM
OP here: Further question: if, by some strange chance, I see this woman doing this again, what should I do?  Do I say something to her myself (even if my kids aren't in there at the time)?  Do I go back to the coach?  Do I go back to the president, even though he didn't respond to me in the first place?  (FYI that the swim team rents the pool during this time, so normal pool management wouldn't necessarily be involved.)
Title: Re: On what planet would this be OK?
Post by: JeanFromBNA on July 16, 2013, 02:08:19 PM
Chop, chop, chop, chop (helicopter parent). 

The next time that she does that, I would say, "Please don't do that.  My teenage son is in there changing."  If she says that she needs to ask little Nemo if he found his goggles, then you can tell her to please wait until he comes outside.  Your son could say loudly and firmly, "EXCUSE ME.  I AM CHANGING IN HERE.  Women are not allowed in the changing room."  A little embarrassment might help.
Title: Re: On what planet would this be OK?
Post by: NyaChan on July 16, 2013, 02:15:03 PM
Chop, chop, chop, chop (helicopter parent). 

The next time that she does that, I would say, "Please don't do that.  My teenage son is in there changing."  If she says that she needs to ask little Nemo if he found his goggles, then you can tell her to please wait until he comes outside.  Your son could say loudly and firmly, "EXCUSE ME.  I AM CHANGING IN HERE.  Women are not allowed in the changing room."  A little embarrassment might help.

I agree with this approach.  The woman doesn't seem to realize that just because her son is in there, it doesn't mean that there won't be non-related or even older males in the locker room who require privacy.
Title: Re: On what planet would this be OK?
Post by: *inviteseller on July 16, 2013, 02:21:26 PM
The woman is wrong.  If her son is unable to use a locker room by himself, then she needs to take him home to change.  I would definitely have your sons say something, loudly if she does it again.  It doesn't sound like she is trying to peep, but an adult woman has no business walking into a men's changing room, anymore than a man walking into a ladies room.  The problem is, I bet she will be offended that anyone says anything to her because she is such a helicopter.
Title: Re: On what planet would this be OK?
Post by: Coralreef on July 16, 2013, 02:36:46 PM
Maybe her son is too young to go in by himself, but she's too old to be in the men's locker room.

Your sons are allowed to tell her to get out.  At least, in my book they are.
Title: Re: On what planet would this be OK?
Post by: EllenS on July 16, 2013, 02:49:23 PM
Come on, you know what planet... the Snowflake Planet!

"Obviously the rules of common decency and courtesy - not to mention the rules of the club- don't apply to me because my Widdle Pwecious might have to make 2 trips to get his Widdle Goggles."
Title: Re: On what planet would this be OK?
Post by: kherbert05 on July 16, 2013, 02:58:03 PM
You have given your son some good words. I would add that he should call the coach for help. I would push this with the pool people especially pointing out that if this were a father they would have already draw and quartered him, had him up on charges, and put on the registry. They need to tell her never to do that again or she will be banned from the club.


It also sounds like next remodeling time, they need to add some family bathrooms/change rooms. I just don't trust Brett to go in, shower, and change without goofing around and annoying people. I'm glad the Y has family bathrooms so I can wash his hair. He and Loren both have hair that will turn green from the chlorine.


There have been a couple of times when young male relatives have taken what seemed to be an extra long time in the bathroom. If there was a man around, I asked him to check on the boys. A couple of times there was no one around, so I cracked the door and asked them if they were ok. Usually they were just dawdling a couple of times they were trying to figure out how to reach the sink or they couldn't pull the door open. What is it with bathroom doors being so heavy?
Title: Re: On what planet would this be OK?
Post by: Eeep! on July 16, 2013, 03:07:27 PM
I guess I'm going to go against the grain here and not totally vilify the woman.  Mind you, I am NOT saying what she did is right - of course a woman should not be in the locker room.  But I can totally see how this situation could happen.  Your son says he left his goggles in the locker room. You tell him to go get them.  He goes in and then takes waaay longer than you think you should.  What do you do?  Now, if she had thought a bit better, she could have flagged a male down and asked them to please go into the locker room and find her son.  But  what if there wasn't someone to flag down?  I'm really not trying to be argumentative, but at some point - if my kid isn't coming out of the locker room- I'm going to open the door and yell for him. What other option do I have? Yes, she absolutely shouldn't have stepped in.  But I could see someone doing that out of frustration with their kid. 
Again, I'm not saying that she was right, but maybe people should cut her a little slack.  It gets tough when your son is too old to accompany you to the women's room but still young enough that you worry.
If she repeatedly does this than there is an issue that needs to be addressed, but a one time thing? I personally don't think so.

(Not to say that boys in the locker room shouldn't say something.  They have a total right to do so. If something makes you uncomfortable, you should let the person know for sure.  And a woman doesn't belong in a men's locker room.)
Title: Re: On what planet would this be OK?
Post by: EllenS on July 16, 2013, 03:18:37 PM
Yelling through the crack is one thing.  LOOKING in, much less walking in, is off-limits.  Both the sons saw her face, one was able to make eye contact.  There were at least 2 swim classes full of boys in there.  Serious failure of boundaries.
Title: Re: On what planet would this be OK?
Post by: sparksals on July 16, 2013, 03:20:50 PM
The OP posted it was not a one time thing, that she witnessed the woman stepping in the room the 2nd time.  THAT is a problem.
Title: Re: On what planet would this be OK?
Post by: Hmmmmm on July 16, 2013, 03:34:59 PM
The woman is in the wrong.

I ran our neighborhood swim team for 5 years with over 200 kids and I don't think I ever ran into this problem accept once. When I told the mom that she wasn't allowed to accompany her 5 year old into the boys locker room her response was "They are just little kids, it's no big deal."  I called over one of our fully mature 16 yr old male swimmers (in a speedo) and said "do you really consider him just a little kid? Do you think he wants you walking in on him? Would you want him walking in on you?" She turned red and said she hadn't considered the older boys might be around too. 

This is a "head in the sand" mother who isn't thinking about the impact on others.
Title: Re: On what planet would this be OK?
Post by: Carotte on July 16, 2013, 03:37:44 PM
Do say something if you ever see her doing it again.
But also be prepared for an outraged "but, I'm a mom", as in "I'm not doing this to oogle boys, I'm a mom for deity's sake".

Which is probably true, but she's still in the wrong, so something like "I'm not accusing you of anything, but you still cannot step in the boy locker room, ever".
Title: Re: On what planet would this be OK?
Post by: Virg on July 16, 2013, 03:39:24 PM
EllenS wrote:

"Obviously the rules of common decency and courtesy - not to mention the rules of the club- don't apply to me because my Widdle Pwecious might have to make 2 trips to get his Widdle Goggles."

Hey, if she can afford to give a pair of Widdles to a child young enough to need her help, then she can just send the butler in to check on him.  I see nothing wrong with having your son tell her to leave, GrammarNerd, and it might be more effective if he was the one who complained to management about it.

Virg
Title: Re: On what planet would this be OK?
Post by: Friday on July 16, 2013, 03:47:38 PM
When my kids were little, we had a situation at a local store where a previously convicted sexual predator - a young woman - walked a young boy out of a store and was stopped in the parking lot.

I'm not saying that's what happening here, but I also see an undertone in such situations with a mom/femal and young boys not being addressed on the same level as a dad/male and young girls would be.

Wrong in both cases, words should be said.
Title: Re: On what planet would this be OK?
Post by: Eeep! on July 16, 2013, 05:09:06 PM
Sorry, I missed the fact that it had happened multiple times.
Title: Re: On what planet would this be OK?
Post by: DottyG on July 16, 2013, 05:12:01 PM
her response was "They are just little kids, it's no big deal."

I think that mother was wrong here, too.  Little kids should still have some semblance of privacy from non-related people.  Just because they're X years old doesn't mean it's ok for them to be seen naked by someone that shouldn't be seeing them that way (even just a regular person with no ulterior motives - doesn't even have to be a predator or someone nefarious).
Title: Re: On what planet would this be OK?
Post by: desireesgranny on July 16, 2013, 06:03:14 PM
Once when my son went into the mall lavatory,  I was outside waiting and waiting. I saw many men  go in and come out.

When my son still had not come out, I waited until there was no one in there, pushed open the door and yelled for my son. I had become quite concerned about him. However, I did not step foot into the lavatory.
Title: Re: On what planet would this be OK?
Post by: JenJay on July 16, 2013, 06:56:47 PM
OP here: Further question: if, by some strange chance, I see this woman doing this again, what should I do?  Do I say something to her myself (even if my kids aren't in there at the time)?  Do I go back to the coach?  Do I go back to the president, even though he didn't respond to me in the first place?  (FYI that the swim team rents the pool during this time, so normal pool management wouldn't necessarily be involved.)

I would say "Ma'am, you might want to stay out of there. Some of the boys have been complaining about a woman coming in while they're changing." Let her draw whatever conclusion she will.

Next I would go straight to the manager of the pool itself and let them know that you have now twice complained to the swim team staff about a woman named X entering the men's locker room with her son named Y (is he on the team?) and the issue has not been addressed. I imagine they'll want to get on that asap. They may not run the team but it seems like they'd ultimately be responsible for the goings-on within the facility.


I guess I'm going to go against the grain here and not totally vilify the woman.  Mind you, I am NOT saying what she did is right - of course a woman should not be in the locker room.  But I can totally see how this situation could happen.  Your son says he left his goggles in the locker room. You tell him to go get them.  He goes in and then takes waaay longer than you think you should.  What do you do?  Now, if she had thought a bit better, she could have flagged a male down and asked them to please go into the locker room and find her son.  But  what if there wasn't someone to flag down?  I'm really not trying to be argumentative, but at some point - if my kid isn't coming out of the locker room- I'm going to open the door and yell for him. What other option do I have? Yes, she absolutely shouldn't have stepped in.  But I could see someone doing that out of frustration with their kid. 
Again, I'm not saying that she was right, but maybe people should cut her a little slack.  It gets tough when your son is too old to accompany you to the women's room but still young enough that you worry.
If she repeatedly does this than there is an issue that needs to be addressed, but a one time thing? I personally don't think so.

(Not to say that boys in the locker room shouldn't say something.  They have a total right to do so. If something makes you uncomfortable, you should let the person know for sure.  And a woman doesn't belong in a men's locker room.)

I've been in this position and what you do is approach the door to the changing area, either knock loudly or stand in such a way that you absolutely cannot see inside (if it's an open entry) and yell "Son'sName, did you find your goggles? If they aren't in there we'll need to check at the lost and found desk. Let's go!" If your child doesn't respond you quickly find a male, preferably a staff member, and ask him to check on your kiddo. If I heard my child indicating he was in distress I'd absolutely go in, other than that, no way.
Title: Re: On what planet would this be OK?
Post by: Cami on July 16, 2013, 06:58:34 PM
I would have told her to get out of the male locker room quite loudly -- just as I would have done if a father were going into the girls' locker room.
Title: Re: On what planet would this be OK?
Post by: DavidH on July 16, 2013, 07:09:04 PM
Although one typically thinks of male predators, it can work the other way too.  From another post, let me change the genders and see how it reads: 

I guess I'm going to go against the grain here and not totally vilify the man.  Mind you, I am NOT saying what he did is right - of course a man should not be in the girl's locker room.  But I can totally see how this situation could happen.  Your daughter says she left her goggles in the locker room. You tell her to go get them.  She goes in and then takes waaay longer than you think you should.  What do you do?  Now, if he had thought a bit better, he could have flagged a female down and asked them to please go into the locker room and find his daughter.  But  what if there wasn't someone to flag down?  I'm really not trying to be argumentative, but at some point - if my kid isn't coming out of the locker room- I'm going to open the door and yell for her.  What other option do I have? Yes, he absolutely shouldn't have stepped in.  But I could see someone doing that out of frustration with their kid. 
Again, I'm not saying that he was right, but maybe people should cut him a little slack.  It gets tough when your daughter is too old to accompany you to the men's room but still young enough that you worry.
If he repeatedly does this than there is an issue that needs to be addressed, but a one time thing? I personally don't think so.

Unless there is very good reason to believe that the child is in danger, not just taking annoyingly long to find their goggles, there is no reason for an adult to enter a children's locker room and particularly one for children of the opposite gender.
Title: Re: On what planet would this be OK?
Post by: Allyson on July 16, 2013, 08:56:00 PM
It's pretty much irrelevant whether or not the woman/man going in the opposite-sex changing room is a predator or innocent or what have you. It's not about *their* motivations. It's about the discomfort of the people getting changed. So if she does bring up the 'well, I'm not doing it to be a pervert, I'm doing it because of my kid', it really *doesn't matter*. 99.9 chance it was harmless on her end, but at least one boy in there felt uncomfortable, so harm was to some degree, done.
Title: Re: On what planet would this be OK?
Post by: Sharnita on July 16, 2013, 09:04:28 PM
I think that if it is a one time thing you get a nearby male to check for you.  If it becomes a pattern that makes it clear he is dawdling you impose consequences/rewards that motivate him to get out in a timely manner with the appropriate gear.  If that is beyond him you wait until next year before he does this again.
Title: Re: On what planet would this be OK?
Post by: Hmmmmm on July 16, 2013, 09:11:46 PM
It's pretty much irrelevant whether or not the woman/man going in the opposite-sex changing room is a predator or innocent or what have you. It's not about *their* motivations. It's about the discomfort of the people getting changed. So if she does bring up the 'well, I'm not doing it to be a pervert, I'm doing it because of my kid', it really *doesn't matter*. 99.9 chance it was harmless on her end, but at least one boy in there felt uncomfortable, so harm was to some degree, done.

This. To me it has nothing to do with predators. But the comfort of the boys in the dressing room.

In my experience, kids under 4 have no issue stripping naked just a out anywhere. But some where around 5 or 6(at least in the States) we develop a more puritanical idea of modesty that needs to be respected.
Title: Re: On what planet would this be OK?
Post by: snowdragon on July 16, 2013, 09:18:12 PM
It's pretty much irrelevant whether or not the woman/man going in the opposite-sex changing room is a predator or innocent or what have you. It's not about *their* motivations. It's about the discomfort of the people getting changed. So if she does bring up the 'well, I'm not doing it to be a pervert, I'm doing it because of my kid', it really *doesn't matter*. 99.9 chance it was harmless on her end, but at least one boy in there felt uncomfortable, so harm was to some degree, done.

 I think this comes closest to how I feel. I don't care if it were a female in the male room, a male in the female one or a child in the adult only room - if the folks for whom that room is actually for are made uncomfortable - the damage is done.
 It simply should not be tolerated.
Title: Re: On what planet would this be OK?
Post by: GrammarNerd on July 16, 2013, 09:36:17 PM
OP here....the locker room in question has a wall vent with slats.  You can't see in, but you can yell in if you need to tell the kids to hurry up or ask them a question.  I've used it many times for my kids.  I would have never, EVER considered going in after them.  For ANYTHING.

I was just so blown away by first what he told me, and then by witnessing it myself!  I mean....wow.   I just hope I don't see her doing it again, and I truly hope that the head coach has contacted her by now and told her that this is quite inappropriate and should NOT be happening again. 

I coach a sport during the winter season and when I think of the child abuse prevention training that I've been through....man, I would be fired SO quickly for doing something like what she did!  That's probably why I'm still in a state of disbelief that someone would think it's OK to do once, let alone multiple times (she was pretty comfortable walking to the door and peering in when I witnessed her today.)

And FYI....her son is 6.
Title: Re: On what planet would this be OK?
Post by: Outdoor Girl on July 16, 2013, 09:40:21 PM
I think your son speaking up is the best way to get this woman to stop.  Especially if some of the other boys start speaking up, too.  They need to be polite about it but there is nothing wrong with:  'This is the men's change room.  Get out!'
Title: Re: On what planet would this be OK?
Post by: GrammarNerd on July 16, 2013, 10:01:20 PM
I think your son speaking up is the best way to get this woman to stop.  Especially if some of the other boys start speaking up, too.  They need to be polite about it but there is nothing wrong with:  'This is the men's change room.  Get out!'

I agree that having the kids do it could have more weight.  BUT....I have to wonder if any kids that are the ages that we're talking about would feel comfortable or empowered enough to make a loud comment at her to get out.  At the time this happened, most of the really older kids are already gone.  When my sons initially saw her, the oldest had just gone in to wash his face; he isn't normally in there at that time.  And I think that younger kids might be uncomfortable with the woman in there, but they wouldn't necessarily feel they had the right to say anything, which is too bad.  And worse yet, they might not even consider that it's inappropriate, because (in the mind of a child) an adult is doing it, and adults (should) know better, so it must be OK, right?
Title: Re: On what planet would this be OK?
Post by: Surianne on July 16, 2013, 10:13:48 PM
I'm not getting the big deal here, but I don't really understand why the gender divide is so important to begin with, I admit.  If your son is worried about her seeing him changing, maybe the best choice would be to change far away from the entrance?

In the female changeroom at my gym, it's not very well labelled, so men are always walking in there by accident.  If I'm naked I just say "Oh, this is ladies" and they apologize and leave.  Anyone can be a predator; gender doesn't really matter.  So I think this isn't as horrifyingly damaging as you're making it out to be.
Title: Re: On what planet would this be OK?
Post by: GrammarNerd on July 16, 2013, 10:25:37 PM
I'm not getting the big deal here, but I don't really understand why the gender divide is so important to begin with, I admit.  If your son is worried about her seeing him changing, maybe the best choice would be to change far away from the entrance?

In the female changeroom at my gym, it's not very well labelled, so men are always walking in there by accident.  If I'm naked I just say "Oh, this is ladies" and they apologize and leave.  Anyone can be a predator; gender doesn't really matter.  So I think this isn't as horrifyingly damaging as you're making it out to be.

Horrifyingly damaging, no.  Highly inappropriate, yes.  And I want my kids to be able to feel that they can change in peace without someone that they don't know of the opposite gender walking in on them.  And I don't want them to think that they have to put up with a mom who can't understand the very simple and straightforward boundary that a woman simply does NOT go into a male changing room, or even open the door and peer inside. 
Title: Re: On what planet would this be OK?
Post by: Surianne on July 16, 2013, 10:31:42 PM
I'm not getting the big deal here, but I don't really understand why the gender divide is so important to begin with, I admit.  If your son is worried about her seeing him changing, maybe the best choice would be to change far away from the entrance?

In the female changeroom at my gym, it's not very well labelled, so men are always walking in there by accident.  If I'm naked I just say "Oh, this is ladies" and they apologize and leave.  Anyone can be a predator; gender doesn't really matter.  So I think this isn't as horrifyingly damaging as you're making it out to be.

Horrifyingly damaging, no.  Highly inappropriate, yes.  And I want my kids to be able to feel that they can change in peace without someone that they don't know of the opposite gender walking in on them.  And I don't want them to think that they have to put up with a mom who can't understand the very simple and straightforward boundary that a woman simply does NOT go into a male changing room, or even open the door and peer inside.

Yeah, I guess I'm just not getting it.  If your kids are really upset buy the idea of a woman seeing them changing, I'm sure there are spots that are very far from the main door, so they'd never come in contact with her?  Or can she see the entire changeroom if she calls in the main door looking for her kids?
Title: Re: On what planet would this be OK?
Post by: GrammarNerd on July 16, 2013, 10:40:34 PM
Though I've never been in there, from their description, it sounds like the women's locker room, where you walk into the shower area and then the changing area with benches is beyond that.   All open and viewable from the door.

And I don't believe the onus should be on the kids to find somewhere in the male changing room where a female with inappropriate boundaries can't see them.  The onus should be on the ADULT to know the rules and adhere to them.
Title: Re: On what planet would this be OK?
Post by: snowdragon on July 16, 2013, 11:13:07 PM
Though I've never been in there, from their description, it sounds like the women's locker room, where you walk into the shower area and then the changing area with benches is beyond that.   All open and viewable from the door.

And I don't believe the onus should be on the kids to find somewhere in the male changing room where a female with inappropriate boundaries can't see them.  The onus should be on the ADULT to know the rules and adhere to them.

  No one of any age should have to find some where in their gender's locker room to change so that they will not be seen by some special snowflake of the opposite gender can have free access. This was not stand at the door and yell - it was walk in and look.  Really, even kindergartners know better at school.
Title: Re: On what planet would this be OK?
Post by: DottyG on July 17, 2013, 12:23:50 AM
Though I've never been in there, from their description, it sounds like the women's locker room, where you walk into the shower area and then the changing area with benches is beyond that.   All open and viewable from the door.

And I don't believe the onus should be on the kids to find somewhere in the male changing room where a female with inappropriate boundaries can't see them.  The onus should be on the ADULT to know the rules and adhere to them.

  No one of any age should have to find some where in their gender's locker room to change so that they will not be seen by some special snowflake of the opposite gender can have free access. This was not stand at the door and yell - it was walk in and look.  Really, even kindergartners know better at school.

This. The boys don't need to find a spot away from the door. They are in their designated room. And that's sufficient.

Surianne, I'd be raising heck in your case. Men just walking into the Ladies dressing area? No. Absolutely not. If it's a matter of not being labeled correctly, I'd be demanding that the place get some adequate signs put up TODAY. How convenient..."oops! Gee ladies, I didn't know this wasn't the men's area! Really! It was just an accident! Nice boobs there, by the way!" (Wink wink) No.
Title: Re: On what planet would this be OK?
Post by: WillyNilly on July 17, 2013, 12:52:40 AM
I'm not getting the big deal here, but I don't really understand why the gender divide is so important to begin with, I admit.  If your son is worried about her seeing him changing, maybe the best choice would be to change far away from the entrance?

In the female changeroom at my gym, it's not very well labelled, so men are always walking in there by accident.  If I'm naked I just say "Oh, this is ladies" and they apologize and leave.  Anyone can be a predator; gender doesn't really matter.  So I think this isn't as horrifyingly damaging as you're making it out to be.

Horrifyingly damaging, no.  Highly inappropriate, yes.  And I want my kids to be able to feel that they can change in peace without someone that they don't know of the opposite gender walking in on them.  And I don't want them to think that they have to put up with a mom who can't understand the very simple and straightforward boundary that a woman simply does NOT go into a male changing room, or even open the door and peer inside.

Yeah, I guess I'm just not getting it.  If your kids are really upset buy the idea of a woman seeing them changing, I'm sure there are spots that are very far from the main door, so they'd never come in contact with her?  Or can she see the entire changeroom if she calls in the main door looking for her kids?

OP's son, and every other boy in the changing room has been led to believe they have found a spot where they won't have women seeing them change the men's locker room. Period. They should not under any reasonable expectations have to do anything more then that to avoid females. By simple virtue of being in a male only space they have already taken active steps towards their goal.
Title: Re: On what planet would this be OK?
Post by: Iris on July 17, 2013, 03:13:49 AM
Though I've never been in there, from their description, it sounds like the women's locker room, where you walk into the shower area and then the changing area with benches is beyond that.   All open and viewable from the door.

And I don't believe the onus should be on the kids to find somewhere in the male changing room where a female with inappropriate boundaries can't see them.  The onus should be on the ADULT to know the rules and adhere to them.

  No one of any age should have to find some where in their gender's locker room to change so that they will not be seen by some special snowflake of the opposite gender can have free access. This was not stand at the door and yell - it was walk in and look.  Really, even kindergartners know better at school.

This. The boys don't need to find a spot away from the door. They are in their designated room. And that's sufficient.

Surianne, I'd be raising heck in your case. Men just walking into the Ladies dressing area? No. Absolutely not. If it's a matter of not being labeled correctly, I'd be demanding that the place get some adequate signs put up TODAY. How convenient..."oops! Gee ladies, I didn't know this wasn't the men's area! Really! It was just an accident! Nice boobs there, by the way!" (Wink wink) No.

I agree. It is nothing to do with their motivations - I guarantee that very few men would sneak in with ulterior motives to look at my overweight, saggy, middle aged body - it's MY comfort. I am not comfortable being naked in front of any random man that wanders past. That is why I am in the FEMALE change room. That (general) you don't mind casual nudity is a personal choice but it's not one that others are entitled to make for you. If a man deliberately walked into the female changing rooms and I was told that *I* should be the one taking action I'd be livid. The woman shouldn't be in the changeroom, end of story.

On the OP if it happens again I'd say to heck with being polite. React exactly as you would if it were a man walking into the girls' changing room. Loudly say "What are you doing? Get out of there!"
Title: Re: On what planet would this be OK?
Post by: Sharnita on July 17, 2013, 06:34:05 AM
I don't bicycle.  Don't see why people love it so much.  That being said, imagine if I looked at the beginning of a bicycle lane and said "Well, I don't get it and it isn't a big deal to me so I will just go ahead and drive in it.  If people really feel the need to bicycle in the bicycle lane they can do it a mile or so up the road."

It really doesn't matter if I get it or if it means much to me.  I need to respect it because it means something to other people.
Title: Re: On what planet would this be OK?
Post by: Piratelvr1121 on July 17, 2013, 07:14:55 AM
Now, I will say there have been times when my older two have been taking forever to come out of the bathroom when all they had to do was #1.  I've gone to the door of the men's bathroom, pushed it open just a bit so they could hear me but I couldn't see anything and told them to hurry up or ask them what was taking so long. 

But I do agree what this woman did was overboard!
Title: Re: On what planet would this be OK?
Post by: LadyL on July 17, 2013, 08:23:07 AM
I'm not getting the big deal here, but I don't really understand why the gender divide is so important to begin with, I admit.  If your son is worried about her seeing him changing, maybe the best choice would be to change far away from the entrance?

In the female changeroom at my gym, it's not very well labelled, so men are always walking in there by accident.  If I'm naked I just say "Oh, this is ladies" and they apologize and leave.  Anyone can be a predator; gender doesn't really matter.  So I think this isn't as horrifyingly damaging as you're making it out to be.

Horrifyingly damaging, no.  Highly inappropriate, yes.  And I want my kids to be able to feel that they can change in peace without someone that they don't know of the opposite gender walking in on them.  And I don't want them to think that they have to put up with a mom who can't understand the very simple and straightforward boundary that a woman simply does NOT go into a male changing room, or even open the door and peer inside.

Yeah, I guess I'm just not getting it.  If your kids are really upset buy the idea of a woman seeing them changing, I'm sure there are spots that are very far from the main door, so they'd never come in contact with her?  Or can she see the entire changeroom if she calls in the main door looking for her kids?

I see it both ways - as an adult I am much less phased by nudity than when I was younger. I'd probably be fine at a nude or topless beach (they don't have many around here). I guess my view of nudity is more "European" as in seeing a nipple won't kill anyone. But when I was younger, ESPECIALLY around puberty, I was super self conscious. I was the kid who changed in a bathroom stall. If I was changing in a locker room it was hard enough being around women - having a man peek his head in would have been panic attack inducing.

The convention in the U.S. is that nudity is segregated by gender and some people feel really strongly about upholding that for moral or safety reasons. It's a pretty big boundary to cross here, whether I personally feel like it's a big deal or not.
Title: Re: On what planet would this be OK?
Post by: Eden on July 17, 2013, 09:04:36 AM
I'm sort of in the middle. I see that it's inappropriate but also don't think it's that big of a deal. I think if the coach doesn't address it with her if it happens again I agree with approaching her telling her that your teenage son is in there changing and along with all of the other kids deserves some privacy. No big fuss. If she protests that her little one needs her, advise her that he should not be using the men's locker in that case.
Title: Re: On what planet would this be OK?
Post by: Cami on July 17, 2013, 09:33:34 AM
I'm not getting the big deal here, but I don't really understand why the gender divide is so important to begin with, I admit.  If your son is worried about her seeing him changing, maybe the best choice would be to change far away from the entrance?

In the female changeroom at my gym, it's not very well labelled, so men are always walking in there by accident.  If I'm naked I just say "Oh, this is ladies" and they apologize and leave.  Anyone can be a predator; gender doesn't really matter.  So I think this isn't as horrifyingly damaging as you're making it out to be.

Horrifyingly damaging, no.  Highly inappropriate, yes.  And I want my kids to be able to feel that they can change in peace without someone that they don't know of the opposite gender walking in on them.  And I don't want them to think that they have to put up with a mom who can't understand the very simple and straightforward boundary that a woman simply does NOT go into a male changing room, or even open the door and peer inside.

Yeah, I guess I'm just not getting it.  If your kids are really upset buy the idea of a woman seeing them changing, I'm sure there are spots that are very far from the main door, so they'd never come in contact with her?  Or can she see the entire changeroom if she calls in the main door looking for her kids?
No one should have to hide in a locker room to keep from being viewed by someone who has no business being in there. Period. Non-negotiable. 
Title: Re: On what planet would this be OK?
Post by: Hmmmmm on July 17, 2013, 09:56:21 AM
I'm not getting the big deal here, but I don't really understand why the gender divide is so important to begin with, I admit.  If your son is worried about her seeing him changing, maybe the best choice would be to change far away from the entrance?

In the female changeroom at my gym, it's not very well labelled, so men are always walking in there by accident.  If I'm naked I just say "Oh, this is ladies" and they apologize and leave.  Anyone can be a predator; gender doesn't really matter.  So I think this isn't as horrifyingly damaging as you're making it out to be.

Horrifyingly damaging, no.  Highly inappropriate, yes.  And I want my kids to be able to feel that they can change in peace without someone that they don't know of the opposite gender walking in on them.  And I don't want them to think that they have to put up with a mom who can't understand the very simple and straightforward boundary that a woman simply does NOT go into a male changing room, or even open the door and peer inside.

Yeah, I guess I'm just not getting it.  If your kids are really upset buy the idea of a woman seeing them changing, I'm sure there are spots that are very far from the main door, so they'd never come in contact with her?  Or can she see the entire changeroom if she calls in the main door looking for her kids?

OP's son, and every other boy in the changing room has been led to believe they have found a spot where they won't have women seeing them change the men's locker room. Period. They should not under any reasonable expectations have to do anything more then that to avoid females. By simple virtue of being in a male only space they have already taken active steps towards their goal.

POD... and it has nothing to do with whether you feel comfortable seeing or being seen in an undressed state by members of the opposite sex. The issue is their level of comfort.

And honestly, your comment of about them being "really upset" seems very dismissive of their feelings. My perception of it was "well, if there going to be little prudes about their bare butts being seen by a woman, then they can go hide somewhere."

Title: Re: On what planet would this be OK?
Post by: Surianne on July 17, 2013, 09:59:32 AM
Surianne, I'd be raising heck in your case. Men just walking into the Ladies dressing area? No. Absolutely not. If it's a matter of not being labeled correctly, I'd be demanding that the place get some adequate signs put up TODAY. How convenient..."oops! Gee ladies, I didn't know this wasn't the men's area! Really! It was just an accident! Nice boobs there, by the way!" (Wink wink) No.

Why would I raise heck?  A couple of guys have walked in over the past year, but they were perfectly nice and apologetic (quite embarrassed about it, actually), so it really wasn't a problem at all.  Are you implying that they were doing it on purpose?  I think that's a very strange and mean-spirited assumption. 
Title: Re: On what planet would this be OK?
Post by: NyaChan on July 17, 2013, 10:07:57 AM
Surianne, I'd be raising heck in your case. Men just walking into the Ladies dressing area? No. Absolutely not. If it's a matter of not being labeled correctly, I'd be demanding that the place get some adequate signs put up TODAY. How convenient..."oops! Gee ladies, I didn't know this wasn't the men's area! Really! It was just an accident! Nice boobs there, by the way!" (Wink wink) No.

Why would I raise heck?  A couple of guys have walked in over the past year, but they were perfectly nice and apologetic (quite embarrassed about it, actually), so it really wasn't a problem at all.  Are you implying that they were doing it on purpose?  I think that's a very strange and mean-spirited assumption.

I would raise heck with the management that isn't taking steps to prevent what appears to be a repeated and easy to make mistake.  I'm not going to blame someone who wanders in unexpectedly, and runs out apologizing, but I'd be upset if it happened again or if management was aware it was happening but made no effort to prevent it or warn people inside that their privacy is not protected.
Title: Re: On what planet would this be OK?
Post by: LeveeWoman on July 17, 2013, 10:09:33 AM
This is not about adults walking in on other adults. This is about ad adult walking in on children.
Title: Re: On what planet would this be OK?
Post by: fountainof on July 17, 2013, 10:17:28 AM
I feel that the OP's boys have a right not to be seen by women in a men's change room.  I think indicating that they should be the one to make concessions is unfair and puts it on them to adjust.  If these were teenage girls and it were a man calling in people would probably not suggest the girls try to hide in the corner, etc.

I don't even think it has anything to do with predators it has to do with respect, the door says men only, it is for men, woman, regardless of their parenting methods should respect that.

I think the boys are fine saying "excuse me, this the male change room please leave".  It is hard to say "get out" without raising your voice so "excuse me" comes off better.

I think if someone hears some screaming "help me" then it is okay for a woman to enter the men's locker room but if it ends up being a prank there should be a punishment as that kind of joking is not appropriate.
Title: Re: On what planet would this be OK?
Post by: Carotte on July 17, 2013, 10:24:55 AM
I don't bicycle.  Don't see why people love it so much.  That being said, imagine if I looked at the beginning of a bicycle lane and said "Well, I don't get it and it isn't a big deal to me so I will just go ahead and drive in it.  If people really feel the need to bicycle in the bicycle lane they can do it a mile or so up the road."

It really doesn't matter if I get it or if it means much to me.  I need to respect it because it means something to other people.

Love this explanation!
And I'll add that in this situation "Sharnita" could have no ill intent what-so-ever (to run over the bicyclists), but other drivers have in the past, so drivers in the bicycle lane is prohibited, so even if she doesn't plan on doing it and could coexist without problem, she won't be allowed to go on the lane anyway.
Bicyclists could be injured, or even just scared of seeing the car, and they shouldn't, since they are in their lane, where they were told they would only be amongst bicycles.
Title: Re: On what planet would this be OK?
Post by: Surianne on July 17, 2013, 10:31:19 AM
Surianne, I'd be raising heck in your case. Men just walking into the Ladies dressing area? No. Absolutely not. If it's a matter of not being labeled correctly, I'd be demanding that the place get some adequate signs put up TODAY. How convenient..."oops! Gee ladies, I didn't know this wasn't the men's area! Really! It was just an accident! Nice boobs there, by the way!" (Wink wink) No.

Why would I raise heck?  A couple of guys have walked in over the past year, but they were perfectly nice and apologetic (quite embarrassed about it, actually), so it really wasn't a problem at all.  Are you implying that they were doing it on purpose?  I think that's a very strange and mean-spirited assumption.

I would raise heck with the management that isn't taking steps to prevent what appears to be a repeated and easy to make mistake.  I'm not going to blame someone who wanders in unexpectedly, and runs out apologizing, but I'd be upset if it happened again or if management was aware it was happening but made no effort to prevent it or warn people inside that their privacy is not protected.

Okay, well, it didn't really bother me so I don't personally see any reason to raise heck in my case.  It simply wasn't a big deal to me.  I'm sure if someone else experiences the same issue they can raise all the heck they want.
Title: Re: On what planet would this be OK?
Post by: Secret on July 17, 2013, 10:40:34 AM
If you are going to encourage your sons to say something to the woman, I would also prepare them for the mom to snap back at the sons. Perhaps role playing may help your son with proper wording and phrasing he can use to tell her, himself that this is not okay because he feels uncomfortable and not be dismissed because he's a child.
Title: Re: On what planet would this be OK?
Post by: Eeep! on July 17, 2013, 10:41:57 AM
Although one typically thinks of male predators, it can work the other way too.  From another post, let me change the genders and see how it reads: 

I guess I'm going to go against the grain here and not totally vilify the man.  Mind you, I am NOT saying what he did is right - of course a man should not be in the girl's locker room.  But I can totally see how this situation could happen.  Your daughter says she left her goggles in the locker room. You tell her to go get them.  She goes in and then takes waaay longer than you think you should.  What do you do?  Now, if he had thought a bit better, he could have flagged a female down and asked them to please go into the locker room and find his daughter.  But  what if there wasn't someone to flag down?  I'm really not trying to be argumentative, but at some point - if my kid isn't coming out of the locker room- I'm going to open the door and yell for her.  What other option do I have? Yes, he absolutely shouldn't have stepped in.  But I could see someone doing that out of frustration with their kid. 
Again, I'm not saying that he was right, but maybe people should cut him a little slack.  It gets tough when your daughter is too old to accompany you to the men's room but still young enough that you worry.
If he repeatedly does this than there is an issue that needs to be addressed, but a one time thing? I personally don't think so.

Unless there is very good reason to believe that the child is in danger, not just taking annoyingly long to find their goggles, there is no reason for an adult to enter a children's locker room and particularly one for children of the opposite gender.

As that was my quote that you decided to use - I actually feel the same way.  Now, I hadn't realized it was a pattern, which changes for me. And I said that I didn't think that she (now he) should have stepped in.  So I still stand by my initial thought.
Title: Re: On what planet would this be OK?
Post by: sparksals on July 17, 2013, 10:46:10 AM
I'm not getting the big deal here, but I don't really understand why the gender divide is so important to begin with, I admit.  If your son is worried about her seeing him changing, maybe the best choice would be to change far away from the entrance?

In the female changeroom at my gym, it's not very well labelled, so men are always walking in there by accident.  If I'm naked I just say "Oh, this is ladies" and they apologize and leave.  Anyone can be a predator; gender doesn't really matter.  So I think this isn't as horrifyingly damaging as you're making it out to be.

Horrifyingly damaging, no.  Highly inappropriate, yes.  And I want my kids to be able to feel that they can change in peace without someone that they don't know of the opposite gender walking in on them.  And I don't want them to think that they have to put up with a mom who can't understand the very simple and straightforward boundary that a woman simply does NOT go into a male changing room, or even open the door and peer inside.

Yeah, I guess I'm just not getting it.  If your kids are really upset buy the idea of a woman seeing them changing, I'm sure there are spots that are very far from the main door, so they'd never come in contact with her?  Or can she see the entire changeroom if she calls in the main door looking for her kids?


They should not have to do that in a change room on the chance one woman will walk in.  There are reasons for male and female change rooms being separated.  The point is, the woman should not be going in there.  Period.  It is highly inappropriate. 
Title: Re: On what planet would this be OK?
Post by: snowdragon on July 17, 2013, 11:35:44 AM
This is not about adults walking in on other adults. This is about ad adult walking in on children.


Doesn't matter = the issue is the same. If one age group is to be respected in this manner the other should be too. Kids should not get less ( or more) respect on this issue than adults. and vice versa. And there are adults who think that because the kids are "just kids" they deserve less privacy and that others needs less privacy from their eyes. Neither is acceptable.
 
Title: Re: On what planet would this be OK?
Post by: DottyG on July 17, 2013, 11:55:05 AM
This is not about adults walking in on other adults. This is about ad adult walking in on children.


Doesn't matter = the issue is the same. If one age group is to be respected in this manner the other should be too. Kids should not get less ( or more) respect on this issue than adults. and vice versa. And there are adults who think that because the kids are "just kids" they deserve less privacy and that others needs less privacy from their eyes. Neither is acceptable.
 

I agree completely.

Title: Re: On what planet would this be OK?
Post by: DavidH on July 17, 2013, 11:56:10 AM
I think there's a huge difference between an honest mistake and deliberately walking into the changing room for the other gender.

For an honest mistake, the right thing to do is apologize and leave as quickly as possible with a minimum of looking around.  For the person who is walked in on, it is unfortunate, but there's not much you can do.  If many people make the same mistake, then it makes sense to let the building management know so that they can improve signage or take other steps.

Deliberately walking into the other changing room or peering in is just wrong.  It's designated that way for a reason.  If the room is unisex, then anyone can be in there and there's no problem.  In a changing room designated men or women, the person changing should not have to modify their behavior to ensure a person of the opposite gender doesn't see them.  Just because one or a group doesn't mind if people of the other gender walk in doesn't make it remotely appropriate.  The inappropriateness is magnified when the changing room is for children of a specific gender and an adult of the other gender walks or peers in. 
Title: Re: On what planet would this be OK?
Post by: Twik on July 17, 2013, 12:29:53 PM
Surianne, I'd be raising heck in your case. Men just walking into the Ladies dressing area? No. Absolutely not. If it's a matter of not being labeled correctly, I'd be demanding that the place get some adequate signs put up TODAY. How convenient..."oops! Gee ladies, I didn't know this wasn't the men's area! Really! It was just an accident! Nice boobs there, by the way!" (Wink wink) No.

Why would I raise heck?  A couple of guys have walked in over the past year, but they were perfectly nice and apologetic (quite embarrassed about it, actually), so it really wasn't a problem at all.  Are you implying that they were doing it on purpose?  I think that's a very strange and mean-spirited assumption.

Exactly how poorly marked are your changing rooms that men are randomly wandering into the women's changing rooms? This is normally not a particularly easy mistake to make. If they're doing it innocently, and being embarrassed, something should be done for their sakes.
Title: Re: On what planet would this be OK?
Post by: LeveeWoman on July 17, 2013, 12:35:51 PM
This is not about adults walking in on other adults. This is about ad adult walking in on children.


Doesn't matter = the issue is the same. If one age group is to be respected in this manner the other should be too. Kids should not get less ( or more) respect on this issue than adults. and vice versa. And there are adults who think that because the kids are "just kids" they deserve less privacy and that others needs less privacy from their eyes. Neither is acceptable.

My point, which I obviously did not make clear, was that just because an adult doesn't get upset at being walked in on while naked does not mean that a kid should not get upset.
Title: Re: On what planet would this be OK?
Post by: Surianne on July 17, 2013, 02:20:37 PM
Surianne, I'd be raising heck in your case. Men just walking into the Ladies dressing area? No. Absolutely not. If it's a matter of not being labeled correctly, I'd be demanding that the place get some adequate signs put up TODAY. How convenient..."oops! Gee ladies, I didn't know this wasn't the men's area! Really! It was just an accident! Nice boobs there, by the way!" (Wink wink) No.

Why would I raise heck?  A couple of guys have walked in over the past year, but they were perfectly nice and apologetic (quite embarrassed about it, actually), so it really wasn't a problem at all.  Are you implying that they were doing it on purpose?  I think that's a very strange and mean-spirited assumption.

Exactly how poorly marked are your changing rooms that men are randomly wandering into the women's changing rooms? This is normally not a particularly easy mistake to make. If they're doing it innocently, and being embarrassed, something should be done for their sakes.

Look, I'm really not interested in getting into this further.  I've said the problem didn't bother me at all.  I'm really not planning to raising heck at my gym, no matter how many posters here want me to. 

There's no reason my posts need to be continually picked apart when it was originally a simple digression.  This isn't helpful to the OP's question at all.
Title: Re: On what planet would this be OK?
Post by: GrammarNerd on July 17, 2013, 02:59:28 PM
Minor update: At the end of the little kids' practice today, I noticed the mom (from across the pool deck) and wanted to see what she did.  I watched and she went over to wait for her son to get done, and then I noticed that she was talking with the head coach for a while.  After that, she wandered over by the locker rooms and (yeah!) was yelling into the locker room through the vents/slats instead of going to the door.  (This is what I've been doing for years.)

So it looks like things are good for now.  I, of course, will still keep an eye on it.  I also learned that our president, who I contacted originally with the coach, doesn't really do anything.  There is someone else, who I've known for years, and she's in the process of assuming the role.  I told her about the whole situation (this was right before I saw the coach talking to the mom) and being the mother of a 16 year old boy, she was appropriately horrified when she thought of the woman walking in on her son.  She turned right around and was going to ask the pool staff to put up some signs.  I told her that the coach said she would talk to the mom, and she said she'd check with her first before she pursued the signs. 

Thanks for all of the good discussion and back up.
Title: Re: On what planet would this be OK?
Post by: ettiquit on July 17, 2013, 03:53:02 PM
Surianne, I'd be raising heck in your case. Men just walking into the Ladies dressing area? No. Absolutely not. If it's a matter of not being labeled correctly, I'd be demanding that the place get some adequate signs put up TODAY. How convenient..."oops! Gee ladies, I didn't know this wasn't the men's area! Really! It was just an accident! Nice boobs there, by the way!" (Wink wink) No.

Why would I raise heck?  A couple of guys have walked in over the past year, but they were perfectly nice and apologetic (quite embarrassed about it, actually), so it really wasn't a problem at all.  Are you implying that they were doing it on purpose?  I think that's a very strange and mean-spirited assumption.

Exactly how poorly marked are your changing rooms that men are randomly wandering into the women's changing rooms? This is normally not a particularly easy mistake to make. If they're doing it innocently, and being embarrassed, something should be done for their sakes.

Look, I'm really not interested in getting into this further.  I've said the problem didn't bother me at all.  I'm really not planning to raising heck at my gym, no matter how many posters here want me to. 

There's no reason my posts need to be continually picked apart when it was originally a simple digression.  This isn't helpful to the OP's question at all.

The problem is that because you didn't think it was a big deal for men to see you naked, that no one should raise a fuss over that sort of thing.  There's a bit of victim-blaming in your posts too, since you think the boys should just go hide to avoid being seen by someone who doesn't belong in the dressing room.

We can't decide for other people what they should and shouldn't be upset about.  I was made fun a lot by a few people when the TSA body scanner machines were introduced, because I thought the idea of them was despicable and they thought it was no big deal. Why would their opinion carry any weight over the validity of my feelings?  I didn't tell them that they were wrong for being ok with this.  I didn't care.  Personal comfort is well, very personal.  No one should presume to decide that someone is wrong because they feel personally violated, even if you think they're being ridiculous.
Title: Re: On what planet would this be OK?
Post by: Twik on July 17, 2013, 04:18:31 PM
Surianne, I'd be raising heck in your case. Men just walking into the Ladies dressing area? No. Absolutely not. If it's a matter of not being labeled correctly, I'd be demanding that the place get some adequate signs put up TODAY. How convenient..."oops! Gee ladies, I didn't know this wasn't the men's area! Really! It was just an accident! Nice boobs there, by the way!" (Wink wink) No.

Why would I raise heck?  A couple of guys have walked in over the past year, but they were perfectly nice and apologetic (quite embarrassed about it, actually), so it really wasn't a problem at all.  Are you implying that they were doing it on purpose?  I think that's a very strange and mean-spirited assumption.

Exactly how poorly marked are your changing rooms that men are randomly wandering into the women's changing rooms? This is normally not a particularly easy mistake to make. If they're doing it innocently, and being embarrassed, something should be done for their sakes.

Look, I'm really not interested in getting into this further.  I've said the problem didn't bother me at all.  I'm really not planning to raising heck at my gym, no matter how many posters here want me to. 

There's no reason my posts need to be continually picked apart when it was originally a simple digression.  This isn't helpful to the OP's question at all.

No, but I don't think going, "Oh, why should he care if a whole parade of women walk through the dressing room when he's naked? It's not big deal," is helpful, either.

You may be comfortable about such things, but many people are not. The question here is how to keep the woman from making the boys uncomfortable.
Title: Re: On what planet would this be OK? Minor update p#61
Post by: DottyG on July 17, 2013, 04:27:26 PM
Quote
She turned right around and was going to ask the pool staff to put up some signs.  I told her that the coach said she would talk to the mom, and she said she'd check with her first before she pursued the signs.

I think some signs might be a good idea anyway.  Maybe not for this situation (hopefully it's now resolved), but just kind of as a preemptory thing for the future.  Yeah, there shouldn't have to be a need for a sign to tell people not to go into the wrong room, but apparently it is necessary!

I'm glad someone was taking it seriously when you told them.

Title: Re: On what planet would this be OK? Minor update p#61
Post by: Surianne on July 17, 2013, 05:06:08 PM
"Victim-blaming"???  Seriously?

Look, I've conceded the point that my story wasn't a useful parallel in the way I originally intended.  I've asked to change the subject to something more useful for the OP. 

But this is flat-out ridiculous and to accuse me of "victim-blaming" is simply offensive. 
Title: Re: On what planet would this be OK? Minor update p#61
Post by: Sharnita on July 17, 2013, 05:20:34 PM
Surianne, when the suggestion is made that if the kids really don't want to be seen naked by a strange woman they should find a certain part of the locker room to change in the subtext seems to be that it was their fault they were seen naked because they were not cautious enough about were they were naked in their own locker room.  That probably was not your intent at all but I think it probably did come across that way to some people. 
Title: Re: On what planet would this be OK? Minor update p#61
Post by: DottyG on July 17, 2013, 05:24:57 PM
So your friend is taking over the president's role?  It sounds like she'll be a good fit and has some interest in getting things done, if it's necessary.  The current one doesn't strike me as such.  I'm surprised he/she didn't do anything (same with the coach).  You'd think they would have done something.

Title: Re: On what planet would this be OK? Minor update p#61
Post by: NyaChan on July 17, 2013, 05:27:00 PM
Surianne, when the suggestion is made that if the kids really don't want to be seen naked by a strange woman they should find a certain part of the locker room to change in the subtext seems to be that it was their fault they were seen naked because they were not cautious enough about were they were naked in their own locker room.  That probably was not your intent at all but I think it probably did come across that way to some people.

I don't think the subtext is that it is their fault, I think the subtext was that they could change their own behavior to prevent the negative result rather than trusting others to change theirs.  It is a valid point, but personally I agree with others that a men's locker room is for men and they should not have to go change in a stall or hide around a corner as their expectation that women will not enter is a reasonable one. 
Title: Re: On what planet would this be OK? Minor update p#61
Post by: Surianne on July 17, 2013, 05:28:51 PM
Surianne, when the suggestion is made that if the kids really don't want to be seen naked by a strange woman they should find a certain part of the locker room to change in the subtext seems to be that it was their fault they were seen naked because they were not cautious enough about were they were naked in their own locker room.  That probably was not your intent at all but I think it probably did come across that way to some people. 

My advice wasn't helpful in the way I'd intended.  I completely understand that.  I feel the polite solution would have been to accept my multiple requests to move past it, rather than for posters to take turns attacking me personally. 
Title: Re: On what planet would this be OK? Minor update p#61
Post by: ettiquit on July 17, 2013, 05:50:14 PM
Surianne, when the suggestion is made that if the kids really don't want to be seen naked by a strange woman they should find a certain part of the locker room to change in the subtext seems to be that it was their fault they were seen naked because they were not cautious enough about were they were naked in their own locker room.  That probably was not your intent at all but I think it probably did come across that way to some people.

I don't think the subtext is that it is their fault, I think the subtext was that they could change their own behavior to prevent the negative result rather than trusting others to change theirs.  It is a valid point, but personally I agree with others that a men's locker room is for men and they should not have to go change in a stall or hide around a corner as their expectation that women will not enter is a reasonable one.

I really don't mean to offend, but this IS the definition of victim-blaming.

But probably we should move on from this before the thread gets locked.
Title: Re: On what planet would this be OK? Minor update p#61
Post by: violetminnow on July 17, 2013, 08:54:26 PM
Good to hear that the woman changed her behavior after she was warned. That's a good sign that she's reasonable and not going to keep going in the locker to prove a point.
Title: Re: On what planet would this be OK? Minor update p#61
Post by: GrammarNerd on July 17, 2013, 09:16:24 PM
OP here.....I got an email from the coach that everything was resolved.  I then talked to her at practice and she said it was a very good discussion with the other mom; no problem at all.  I asked if it was just something that didn't really occur to her (having younger kids, she maybe didn't think about how older or other kids would feel) and she didn't really confirm that viewpoint, but reiterated that it was a good discussion and that there were no hard feelings and the woman wasn't upset or anything like that. 

I'm inferring that maybe this was just a case where the mom just did NOT. THINK.  She didn't consider the older kids, and she was just maybe in the frame of mind of dealing with a 6 year old.  Once it was pointed out to her that this is something that is NOT done and the potential ramifications or affect on other boys (of any age), she was "enlightened" and understood the need for her to back off.

I'm sure that human nature will always make me remember her for this, but I won't hold it against her.  It was strange, sure, but I'm happy that it appears to have been resolved peacefully and respectfully.  Sometimes people just need an 'a ha....duh' moment.
Title: Re: On what planet would this be OK?
Post by: HoneyBee42 on July 17, 2013, 09:42:53 PM
This is not about adults walking in on other adults. This is about ad adult walking in on children.


Doesn't matter = the issue is the same. If one age group is to be respected in this manner the other should be too. Kids should not get less ( or more) respect on this issue than adults. and vice versa. And there are adults who think that because the kids are "just kids" they deserve less privacy and that others needs less privacy from their eyes. Neither is acceptable.

Although it seems the original situation has been resolved--just wanted to add that the one difference to me is that a lot of times, kids don't necessarily have the "tools in the box" to deal with a situation like a wrong-gender adult coming into the change room.  Adults, for the most part, have figured out how to either address the issue at the time or know who to contact (or how to find out who to contact) to complain up the 'food chain'.  Kids need help with that part (and some kids might be too embarrassed to tell their parent{s} and just try to quit doing the activity as their "solution").

I'm glad that the OP's situation worked out as well as it did.

(edited because I had a weird formatting issue)
Title: Re: On what planet would this be OK?
Post by: snowdragon on July 18, 2013, 04:24:09 PM
This is not about adults walking in on other adults. This is about ad adult walking in on children.


Doesn't matter = the issue is the same. If one age group is to be respected in this manner the other should be too. Kids should not get less ( or more) respect on this issue than adults. and vice versa. And there are adults who think that because the kids are "just kids" they deserve less privacy and that others needs less privacy from their eyes. Neither is acceptable.

Although it seems the original situation has been resolved--just wanted to add that the one difference to me is that a lot of times, kids don't necessarily have the "tools in the box" to deal with a situation like a wrong-gender adult coming into the change room.  Adults, for the most part, have figured out how to either address the issue at the time or know who to contact (or how to find out who to contact) to complain up the 'food chain'.  Kids need help with that part (and some kids might be too embarrassed to tell their parent{s} and just try to quit doing the activity as their "solution").

I'm glad that the OP's situation worked out as well as it did.

(edited because I had a weird formatting issue)

The reason why it's an issue for an adult is that if the parent who is bringing a child into the adult locker room gets upset at something the kid sees, they can make a WHOLE mess of trouble for the adult. And it won't matter if the adult was in their designated area, or what not. If they get reported for being improper in front of a kid - their life can be ruined.
   And before anyone says that's an over reaction, consider this:  My 5th grade teacher had his life ruined for just such circumstances. He was in the locker room at his gym, came out of the shower to get dressed and while doing so a parent brought their child ( a boy) in to the adult locker room.  The parent got upset at the kid seeing a nude adult in the adult locker room, reported the teacher and the teacher was arrested on indecent exposure to a minor charges. Lost his good name, and his career ( you can't be a teacher here if you have been arrested on child related charges) because  some parent took a kid into an area that they had no business being in.

The potential for damage to the adult is much greater than just a bit of embarrassment. 
Title: Re: On what planet would this be OK?
Post by: snappylt on July 18, 2013, 10:22:30 PM
Minor update: At the end of the little kids' practice today, I noticed the mom (from across the pool deck) and wanted to see what she did.  I watched and she went over to wait for her son to get done, and then I noticed that she was talking with the head coach for a while.  After that, she wandered over by the locker rooms and (yeah!) was yelling into the locker room through the vents/slats instead of going to the door.  (This is what I've been doing for years.)

So it looks like things are good for now.  I, of course, will still keep an eye on it.  I also learned that our president, who I contacted originally with the coach, doesn't really do anything.  There is someone else, who I've known for years, and she's in the process of assuming the role.  I told her about the whole situation (this was right before I saw the coach talking to the mom) and being the mother of a 16 year old boy, she was appropriately horrified when she thought of the woman walking in on her son.  She turned right around and was going to ask the pool staff to put up some signs.  I told her that the coach said she would talk to the mom, and she said she'd check with her first before she pursued the signs. 

Thanks for all of the good discussion and back up.

May I offer a general "thank you" to you on behalf of grown men who don't want a woman walking into the men's changing room?

Years ago, when my sons were much younger, we had a YMCA membership so we could go swimming there and so the boys could take swimming lessons there.

We usually scheduled our sons' lessons for the last lesson period right before the family swimming time.  A few minutes before the end ofthe lessons I would go to the men's changing room to change into my swimsuit so I could hop in the pool for family swim time.

One day, maybe fifteen or twenty seconds after I had pulled up my swimsuit, a 30 or 35 year old woman marched into the men's changing room with her 5 or 6 year old son and proceeded to help him change into his clothes.

I was upset.  I tried telling her to leave, but she replied to me in a foreign language (and would not leave).  I gathered up my clothing and went to complain to the manager.  The woman and son had left by the time I found the manager, and I never noticed them there again.

In your case, I'm glad you helped the woman who behaved inappropriately learn to change her behavior.  Your sons deserve to be able to change without a woman observing them.
Title: Re: On what planet would this be OK?
Post by: Aeris on July 19, 2013, 03:53:40 PM
This is not about adults walking in on other adults. This is about ad adult walking in on children.


Doesn't matter = the issue is the same. If one age group is to be respected in this manner the other should be too. Kids should not get less ( or more) respect on this issue than adults. and vice versa. And there are adults who think that because the kids are "just kids" they deserve less privacy and that others needs less privacy from their eyes. Neither is acceptable.

Although it seems the original situation has been resolved--just wanted to add that the one difference to me is that a lot of times, kids don't necessarily have the "tools in the box" to deal with a situation like a wrong-gender adult coming into the change room.  Adults, for the most part, have figured out how to either address the issue at the time or know who to contact (or how to find out who to contact) to complain up the 'food chain'.  Kids need help with that part (and some kids might be too embarrassed to tell their parent{s} and just try to quit doing the activity as their "solution").

I'm glad that the OP's situation worked out as well as it did.

(edited because I had a weird formatting issue)

The reason why it's an issue for an adult is that if the parent who is bringing a child into the adult locker room gets upset at something the kid sees, they can make a WHOLE mess of trouble for the adult. And it won't matter if the adult was in their designated area, or what not. If they get reported for being improper in front of a kid - their life can be ruined.
   And before anyone says that's an over reaction, consider this:  My 5th grade teacher had his life ruined for just such circumstances. He was in the locker room at his gym, came out of the shower to get dressed and while doing so a parent brought their child ( a boy) in to the adult locker room.  The parent got upset at the kid seeing a nude adult in the adult locker room, reported the teacher and the teacher was arrested on indecent exposure to a minor charges. Lost his good name, and his career ( you can't be a teacher here if you have been arrested on child related charges) because  some parent took a kid into an area that they had no business being in.

The potential for damage to the adult is much greater than just a bit of embarrassment.

Couldn't that just as easily have happened if it was the boy's *father* accompanying him into the men's locker room? What you describe sounds like an issue that would plague locker rooms all over the country that allowed children, having nothing at all to do with a wrong-gender-adult entering.

It almost sounds like you're trying to make this into a 'adults vs children' issue, when the issue in this thread is really about 'wrong gender in the locker room'.
Title: Re: On what planet would this be OK? Minor update p#61
Post by: Twik on July 19, 2013, 04:26:39 PM
Must have been a strange jurisdiction that would arrest someone for being naked in a changing room.  ???
Title: Re: On what planet would this be OK? Minor update p#61
Post by: Cherry91 on July 22, 2013, 08:37:13 AM
Let's put it this way, if the genders were flipped on this situation, parents and children alike would be screaming for security or even the police.

If you see her step into the changing room again, perhaps say loudly "Excuse me, that is the BOYS changing room!". She might take the hint.
Title: Re: On what planet would this be OK? Minor update p#61
Post by: TootsNYC on July 22, 2013, 08:51:56 AM
OP here.....I got an email from the coach that everything was resolved.  I then talked to her at practice and she said it was a very good discussion with the other mom; no problem at all. I asked if it was just something that didn't really occur to her (having younger kids, she maybe didn't think about how older or other kids would feel) and she didn't really confirm that viewpoint, but reiterated that it was a good discussion and that there were no hard feelings and the woman wasn't upset or anything like that. 


I think that question really wan't appropriate for you to ask. I know that we'e been discussing it with you, but in real life, the details of that sort of conversation are not for sharing. And to ask about them is a misstep.

The coach did great, talking to her and then letting you know that things were resolved and telling you *only* the things that might affect you in the future (no animosity or hard feelings surrounding the team; very low chance of it reoccurring).