Etiquette Hell

General Etiquette => Family and Children => Topic started by: nayberry on July 20, 2013, 02:22:31 PM

Title: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: nayberry on July 20, 2013, 02:22:31 PM
thank you parents of "girl" for not giving in to her tantrum and for making her behave.

i saw them in a few stores and the mum had a firm grip on the childs hand and i heard her say "if you hadn't misbehaved you wouldn't have to hold my hand, but now you are holding it until we get home!"

girl tried to pull her hand free and whined and wailed but to no avail.

mum say us at one point and said "sorry"  ::) , i replied "don't worry about it".

Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: *inviteseller on July 20, 2013, 02:48:20 PM
I just want to hug those type of parents when I see them out..instead of the lady I saw the other day who told her kid (about 7) no.  Kid started screaming at her and hit her, telling her he hated her, so she grabbed what he wanted and put it in the cart :o :o I just shook my head.
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: snowdragon on July 20, 2013, 02:54:05 PM
I am seeing more of what my sister calls "parenting making a come back" lately. It's wonderful to see.  You know those are the parents that care about the type of adult their kids turn out to be.
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: GSNW on July 20, 2013, 04:22:53 PM
Agreed.  We were in the airport yesterday and there was a family of four - mom, dad, baby I guess to be about six months and girl of about three.  Mom was holding the sleeping baby and dad was trying to entertain the little girl, but she kept trying to run across the concourse to the candy display.  When dad physically stopped her no less than five times, she began shrieking, stamping feet, flailing arms.

Dad picked her up, sat her butt firmly in a chair and said, "It is now time for you to be silent."  She opened her mouth again and he cut her off.  "Nope - silence - NOW."  Little girl obviously knew he meant business because despite sniffling righteously a few times, she was quiet!  I don't need silence to play Candy Crush in the boarding area but it sure is nice to be spared the screaming!
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: Hillia on July 20, 2013, 06:28:45 PM
Saw one at an outdoor music festival we went to last week.  At the end of the day, we were waiting for the shuttle bus to take us  back to the parking lot where our car was.  There was a family with 5 little girls, from about 8 down to an infant.  When the bus arrived, it pulled in a few yards beyond the place where we were all waiting.  The little girls got excited and started running towards the bus, when their mom called them back: 'No!  You are in a line and you will stay in a line.  We will all get a turn to get on the bus'. And they all stopped dead and went back to their parents, to wait in line for the bus.
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: chibichan on July 20, 2013, 07:18:04 PM
Years ago when I was a store worker on a military base , I overheard a Mom in the PX tell her 9 year old daughter " You have not yet earned the privilege of being allowed to walk around in this store unsupervised ."

To which her child replied " Yes Ma'am ."

I wanted to hug her . Heck , I wanted to clone her... ;D
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: *inviteseller on July 21, 2013, 10:37:54 AM
I don't think it is parenting making a comeback, as much as we are starting to notice the good parents who are the quiet ones who don't make scenes in dealing with their kids.  We are used to the screeching non stop the the whole store kids whose parents just ignore it or say 'honey, sweetie, lovey, mummy will do anything you want..what will make little snookie ookums a happy kid?"   
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: Thipu1 on July 21, 2013, 11:58:03 AM
I do believe that good parenting is making a come-back.

30 years ago, when we first moved into the neighborhood, the kids were terrors.  There were restaurants we liked but wouldn't visit because there were always little children playing hide-and-seek around the legs of waitresses carrying trays of hot food. It was too scary to watch.   

A generation or so down the line, things are completely different.  Recently we had lunch at a sushi place.  Seated next to us was a table of six.  There were four young boys fresh from a soccer game in the park.  The boys were accompanied by two adults. 

The boys enthusiastically discussed the match but weren't overly loud. They stayed in their seats and ate their food nicely.  If it wasn't for the childish voices, you'd think you were sitting next to a table of adult sports fans discussing the recent victory of a local sports team.

It's interesting to consider that the four-year-olds who were allowed to create havoc  in 1983 may be the parents of these very well-behaved young men in 2013. 

   
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: Sophia on July 25, 2013, 03:27:26 PM
I think it is making a comeback.  I think it is based on prevalent parenting philosophies.  I was born in 1970.  I remember many friend's parent's seemed to think that "As long as we love them and don't spank them, then all will be fine."  Then there was the permissive "I don't want to squash his/her individuality."  Then there was the "Praise for every little thing and tell him/her 'you are smart' so that it will be true."  Lots of exceptions, of course.  But now the idea seems to be leaning more toward the Love and Logic idea of natural consequences, or the straight old-fashioned parenting ideas. 

I also think that social pressure comes into play.  I think people are more disapproving of a badly behaved kid in public.  There is no "kids will be kids" attitude.  (Not that I disagree)
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: CakeBeret on July 25, 2013, 04:23:02 PM
Nayberry, your story sounds just like what DS and I went through a few weeks ago.

Our rule is that DS can walk by himself if he follows the rules (stay close, no touching, no running). We were in a store and he kept touching things, so after a warning, I decreed that he had to hold my hand. He immediately dissolved into a puddle of wailing torment. The end result is that we marched out of the store, across three parking lots, and back to the car with him screaming the entire time.

I was incredibly embarrassed, but I received *several* kind smiles from my fellow shoppers, and one even saluted me. ;)

Happily, DS has been a model of good shopping behavior ever since.
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: Slartibartfast on July 25, 2013, 04:32:05 PM
I think part of it is that we've got a lot of religious/moral/societal issues which have come under social debate in the last decade or so, with people holding very strong (and opposing) opinions.  The only way to ensure your kids grow up feeling the same way you do about homosexuality/religion/feminism/racial relations/politics is to to parent them in a way which puts *you* as more important than what the rest of the world is saying to them - you never know what kind of messages they're receiving at school or from their friends, but if you make sure you're an authority figure they look up to, you know they'll at least give your own opinions weight.

(I don't think this is necessarily a conscious thing, honestly, but it happens anyway.  I want my daughter growing up thinking that it's okay to like math and engineering, it's good to follow our religious teachings but it doesn't make someone else less of a good person for not following them, and that it's important to be tolerant of people who are different than we are.  She's not going to learn those things on her own!)
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: CharlieBraun on July 25, 2013, 05:43:12 PM
I was in Publix last week, and a mother refused to buy the Trendy Brand of Chips that were being demanded by her nine-year-old-ish daughter, in favor of selecting the exact-same-tasting Less Trendy Chips.  The way her daughter was carrying on, you would have thought her mother was buying Chips that Hate Justin Beiber And Cause Body Odor and Acne Breakouts On Purpose.  Mom looked at her, arched an eyebrow, and stated:  "Less Trendy Chips, or no chips.  Your choice."  When the whining continued, Mom turned her cart around, took her daughter's hand, and started for the checkout.  As they were walking away to the daughter's protest of having her hand held, Mom replied "you seem to be acting like (what I guess was a younger sibling's name), so that's what's happening."

It was wonderful to see.
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: Yentush on July 25, 2013, 11:03:45 PM
I always liked this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6XZ-0ns2yA
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: Eeep! on July 26, 2013, 12:14:07 AM
I always liked this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6XZ-0ns2yA

That's hilarious! Although, what's with leaving the chips on the ground? ;-)
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: Katana_Geldar on July 26, 2013, 01:05:48 AM
I wonder, could it be some parents are insecure about wanti sir kids to like them, so ey give in all the time? I remember when I studied teaching, I could always Stan behind the phrase "I'm not here to be liked" so I cold ignore when I was called mean for saying no to something unreasonable.
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: Carotte on July 26, 2013, 05:30:47 AM
I wonder, could it be some parents are insecure about wanti sir kids to like them, so ey give in all the time? I remember when I studied teaching, I could always Stan behind the phrase "I'm not here to be liked" so I cold ignore when I was called mean for saying no to something unreasonable.

It's such a vast subject that I think there is a multitude of answers.
I think it boils down to it's hard and tyring to always be parenting and that there's bound to be resentment from the kid at the beginning, even more if it was lax before and now (around 5/6 y/old or older) the parents are trying to do something.
So some parents will give up, either because it's too much work, or because they start to feel that little Jimmy hate them for forcing him to not play in the middle of the street.

I know a set of parent to a very bright 6 y/old, she's too smart for her own good, and there's no discipline involved, so she's a real spoiled brat to her parents. But since she's smart, anytime she come across someone who do enforce discipline (like my mom when she babysat her) then she's a nice kid, who give her parents hell because they allow it.
They did her a huge disservice, and a bigger one to them, it's getting a bit late to try and stop it now if they didn't have the gut to do it when she was younger.
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: gingerzing on July 26, 2013, 02:45:57 PM
I always liked this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6XZ-0ns2yA

I have had a couple of friends do that with their kids.  (Though not in a store.)


Saw a mom a while back in the grocery store whose 5-ish boy started asking for something  very early in their shopping trip.  She said "No" the first time, then stared at him and said something about what had she said about being good.  Question was asked again.  "Nope, and you are done."   She turned and walked 2 feet away and said "Let's go"   
"No, mamma.  I will be good.  Momma" 
"No, you disobeyed and not only are we done here but you will not be doing....."
Never heard what he would not be doing since he started to wail and cry "no".
As she walked to him, I caught her eye and mouthed, "Good job, Mom"  and gave her a micro thumbs up with a smile. 



Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: Acadianna on July 26, 2013, 10:34:38 PM
So some parents will give up, either because it's too much work, or because they start to feel that little Jimmy hate them for forcing him to not play in the middle of the street.

I've also seen excellent parents who give up through sheer exhaustion, because of an exceptionally difficult child.  Almost always this is because the problems originate within the child rather than with the parenting.  In such cases, all the "best" strategies simply don't work, and there is little more (if anything) that the parents can do, although they keep trying to the point of exhaustion.  My heart breaks for parents like these.
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: suzieQ on July 26, 2013, 10:43:26 PM
So some parents will give up, either because it's too much work, or because they start to feel that little Jimmy hate them for forcing him to not play in the middle of the street.

I've also seen excellent parents who give up through sheer exhaustion, because of an exceptionally difficult child.  Almost always this is because the problems originate within the child rather than with the parenting.  In such cases, all the "best" strategies simply don't work, and there is little more (if anything) that the parents can do, although they keep trying to the point of exhaustion.  My heart breaks for parents like these.
God bless you. I'm in that category (or was when DS was younger - now that he is a teen, he is remarkably better behaved. I believe he is learning how to cope with his Autistic information overload better than he did as a young child).
It was hard enough dealing with him - absolutely exhausting. It wasn't helped when strangers decided to get judgmental about our parenting techniques. I felt like saying "You want a shot at figuring him out?  Feel free! Take him home and you will be begging me to take him back in 24 hours or less."
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: CakeEater on July 27, 2013, 12:09:59 AM
I don't think good parenting is making any kind of comeback. I think there has always been good parents and parents who have had less idea about what to do, and kids who don't respond easily to techniques that do work easily for other families.

And there are parents who desperately need to get done whatever it is they're doing in public, and really need the kid with them to be quiet on that one day and are giving in where they usually wouldn't, knowling that it will come back to bite them later.

It's great to be complimentary about people's parenting, and we should be careful not to be overly judgemental about people who are doing something we think is 'wrong' in a particular situation.
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: bonyk on July 27, 2013, 08:50:47 AM
I don't think good parenting is making any kind of comeback. I think there has always been good parents and parents who have had less idea about what to do, and kids who don't respond easily to techniques that do work easily for other families.

And there are parents who desperately need to get done whatever it is they're doing in public, and really need the kid with them to be quiet on that one day and are giving in where they usually wouldn't, knowling that it will come back to bite them later.

It's great to be complimentary about people's parenting, and we should be careful not to be overly judgemental about people who are doing something we think is 'wrong' in a particular situation.

I agree with this 100%.  I've been complimented more times than I can count because DD is extremely well behaved.  But, honestly, that's got more to do with who she is than what I've done.  I've always been really aware that if DD had been born with more of a defiant streak, those approving smiles would turn into glares really quickly.
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: Layla Miller on July 27, 2013, 10:20:11 AM
I don't think good parenting is making any kind of comeback. I think there has always been good parents and parents who have had less idea about what to do, and kids who don't respond easily to techniques that do work easily for other families.

And there are parents who desperately need to get done whatever it is they're doing in public, and really need the kid with them to be quiet on that one day and are giving in where they usually wouldn't, knowling that it will come back to bite them later.

It's great to be complimentary about people's parenting, and we should be careful not to be overly judgemental about people who are doing something we think is 'wrong' in a particular situation.

I agree with this 100%.  I've been complimented more times than I can count because DD is extremely well behaved.  But, honestly, that's got more to do with who she is than what I've done.  I've always been really aware that if DD had been born with more of a defiant streak, those approving smiles would turn into glares really quickly.

Also agree totally.  I'm doing the best I can with DD, but I have no doubt in my mind that I'm going to make mistakes (including in public where other people can see me and potentially judge me!).  I also know that even if I were to do everything 100% correct--if such a thing really existed, anyway--DD will never be a perfect angel.  This knowledge makes me more forgiving of parents who make mistakes of their own, but also very supportive of parents who are doing their best.  Even if their best falls short for one reason or another.

Sometimes I run across a sort of "Grrr, kids today are just terrible, nothing like when I was that age" attitude and it reminds me of all those quotes from people over the centuries that decry their younger generations, and I just have to laugh.  The more things change....  ;D

(Oh, and I'm going to have "Kids" from Bye Bye Birdie stuck in my head all day.  This may or may not be a good thing!)
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: girlmusic on July 30, 2013, 03:54:27 PM
Earworm Alert! Now I can't get that song out of my head....
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: Twik on July 30, 2013, 04:11:19 PM
There are trends in parenting. At one point, it was a common belief that children should be treated in a manner somewhere between training a military recruit, and breaking a horse. Then, the pendulum swung to the far opposite. I recall in the 1990s a prominent commentator in the national newspaper writing an indignant article because his daughter's dentist had told him to "make" his daughter brush more frequently. How horrible, he proclaimed, to think that a parent had the right to make a 10 year old do anything, even at the expense of serious dental problems down the road.

I hope that, for the time being, we have reached the Golden Mean, where discipline and kindness can both be used, as best fits the situation.
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: Katana_Geldar on July 30, 2013, 05:02:29 PM
Parents are trying to be their kids friends, which is a mistake as a lot of kids think adults are daggy.
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: Thipu1 on August 01, 2013, 04:45:55 PM
There has always been good parenting out there but there have also been fads.

About 15 years ago I remember a Parent who brought her 3 year-old DD in to visit us in the library.  She apologized for the child's rather dirty looking hair.

'I know she needs a shampoo but she doesn't like having her hair washed and I can't force my will upon her'.

DUH?  :(

She's three.  She needs a clean-up.  You're her parent.  You CAN force your will upon her. 

I'm happy to report that the  child has turned out very well. 
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: blue2000 on August 02, 2013, 03:38:06 AM
So some parents will give up, either because it's too much work, or because they start to feel that little Jimmy hate them for forcing him to not play in the middle of the street.

I've also seen excellent parents who give up through sheer exhaustion, because of an exceptionally difficult child.  Almost always this is because the problems originate within the child rather than with the parenting.  In such cases, all the "best" strategies simply don't work, and there is little more (if anything) that the parents can do, although they keep trying to the point of exhaustion.  My heart breaks for parents like these.
God bless you. I'm in that category (or was when DS was younger - now that he is a teen, he is remarkably better behaved. I believe he is learning how to cope with his Autistic information overload better than he did as a young child).
It was hard enough dealing with him - absolutely exhausting. It wasn't helped when strangers decided to get judgmental about our parenting techniques. I felt like saying "You want a shot at figuring him out?  Feel free! Take him home and you will be begging me to take him back in 24 hours or less."

I encountered someone in a similar position at a bus stop once.

This lady and her 7/8 yr old boy were waiting for the bus. The kid was clearly out of control - not doing anything terrible, but not listening to a darn thing his mother said. She was ranting to someone (another mom, maybe? can't recall) about his awful behaviour. It turned out she was his stepmom and she was OK with the rest of the kids but he just wouldn't listen. I kind of went "Whaaa??" at this because she was saying no but then she would just stand there and do nothing when he did it anyway. Not good parenting!

But then the bus came. And he wanted on. So he went, even though she told him no (they were at the back of the line). She grabbed his shirt and held it so he couldn't go. The kid was windmilling his arms and legs like a cartoon, running in place, and not moving because she still had a hold on him. He didn't seem to be actively trying to disobey her. He wasn't struggling to get out of her hold. He wasn't mad at her at all. He was acting like he didn't even know she was there.

I felt so sorry for her at that point. There is a lot you can do for a child who is angry or stubborn. There isn't much you can do for a child who is so wrapped up in his own head that he doesn't even see you.
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: Sophia on August 02, 2013, 07:58:19 AM
...or she was so ineffective she wasn't worth noticing.  I still call that bad parenting. 
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: blue2000 on August 02, 2013, 12:22:25 PM
...or she was so ineffective she wasn't worth noticing.  I still call that bad parenting. 

I wouldn't say she was ineffective in that case. She prevented him from pushing in front of everyone else quite effectively. The problem I saw was that he didn't seem to notice it. Sooner or later he is going to be too big to grab and hold, and then what? She hasn't got many other options.
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: jaxsue on August 02, 2013, 12:46:30 PM
Nayberry, your story sounds just like what DS and I went through a few weeks ago.

Our rule is that DS can walk by himself if he follows the rules (stay close, no touching, no running). We were in a store and he kept touching things, so after a warning, I decreed that he had to hold my hand. He immediately dissolved into a puddle of wailing torment. The end result is that we marched out of the store, across three parking lots, and back to the car with him screaming the entire time.

I was incredibly embarrassed, but I received *several* kind smiles from my fellow shoppers, and one even saluted me. ;)

Happily, DS has been a model of good shopping behavior ever since.

I salute you, too. I've done the same with both my sons. DS #1 has autism, so he was more difficult to handle. However, I was a strict ("mean") mom.  :)
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: Piratelvr1121 on August 02, 2013, 02:02:45 PM
My bff works retail and tells me near the end of the summer the moms are coming in looking exhausted and numb and the kids are more rambunctious. 

And well I've found, with 3 boys that the same methods definitely don't work on all 3.  My oldest is sensitive, hates to disappoint people so often it doesn't take much more than a look of irritation and/or disappointment to get him to fall in line.

My middle son is not quite as sensitive but he's an extrovert so being in his room alone for an extended period of time is often fitting punishment for him.  And he is my limit tester and the one who will argue and argue, or he'll try, so I've had to learn to stand my ground with him even if I'm tired of arguing. 

The littlest one, well he gets the port-a-crib but then his only offenses are giving attitude when he's told "No", but he is plopped in the portajail each time.
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: Slartibartfast on August 02, 2013, 02:57:26 PM
One of my very good friends has a 6-year-old son with severe autism.  He's also HUGE for his age (bigger than most 9-10-year-olds).  She gets so many dirty looks from people who see him and judge him for not acting like the ten-year-old they expect him to be, who don't care that he's minimally verbal, mostly non-communicative, and SIX @#$#@ YEARS OLD.  I dare you to find even a genius-level neurotypical six-year-old who would behave like an ideal ten-year-old all the time!
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: CakeEater on August 02, 2013, 06:53:06 PM
I believe that some people work very hard at their parenting, and are blessed at the same time with kids who respond well to discipline. Some of these parents then feel quite proud of their efforts, believing the whole outcome of a well-behaved child to be through their excellent parenting, and quite happy to judge others. 'I worked hard at getting my kids to behave, and look - they do! If your kids don't behave, you just haven't worked hard enough.'

Others work doubly hard at their parenting and are not blessed with such children, and end up with children who are not as well-behaved. The mother/father who seems to be ineffective may have worked 5 times as hard at disciplining her child as the mother with the little angel sitting quietly beside them.
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: Piratelvr1121 on August 02, 2013, 08:27:32 PM
I think in our case we truly got lucky for the most part.   Yes our kids test our limits but what kids don't?  But we've gotten compliments from strangers on how well our children behave.  Even when the older two were toddlers.  And it's not like we really had to do much to teach them to behave in restaurants.  We'd take them, put them in a highchair/booster and they'd sit there and either talk to the adults at the table or make eyes at the waitresses.

I mean there were a few times we'd have to give guidance on table manners but we really could take them just about anywhere and I do think it's honestly just good luck. 

But then we had friends who had to spend a good part of the time saying "Settle down, sit down, stop pestering the people behind us, stop throwing your silverware, no you cannot climb under the table" and otherwise reminding me of Bill Cosby's "Jeffrey" story.
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: Rohanna on August 02, 2013, 08:34:01 PM
I have one of each- one that has from day one entertained himself largely, sits quietly and eats in the highchair etc.... One that you have to watch and remind to behave *constantly*. I've always said that good parenting can only mold the personality you get, it doesn't let you pick the one you want.
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: Acadianna on August 02, 2013, 11:10:26 PM
I'm in that category (or was when DS was younger - now that he is a teen, he is remarkably better behaved. I believe he is learning how to cope with his Autistic information overload better than he did as a young child).
It was hard enough dealing with him - absolutely exhausting. It wasn't helped when strangers decided to get judgmental about our parenting techniques. I felt like saying "You want a shot at figuring him out?  Feel free! Take him home and you will be begging me to take him back in 24 hours or less."

I hear ya!  I recall one of my students who was pretty darn well behaved, considering the severity of his autism.  Even so, we still had occasional meltdowns.  In the beginning, I'd phone his (awesome, amazing, and wonderful!) parents, who would help me figure out the probable cause.  As I grew more sophisticated and proactive about his needs, we had fewer and fewer problems.  We learned, for example, to escort him out of the room before putting a DVD in the player.  (The static on old pre-cable TVs was unbearable to him.)  Or always allowing him to finish an online reward video before moving to a new activity.  (He was never happy about exiting an unfinished activity.)

In many ways, it's a continuing detective story.  We -- parents and teachers alike -- have to figure out needs and triggers for which we have no personal reference.  The child is usually unable to explain.  Once we do figure them out, then we can accommodate and teach coping strategies.  But it takes a lot of time and a lot of patience, and the good results may not appear until the teenage years, as with your DS.

Your DS is very fortunate to have parents like you.  May the successes keep right on coming.
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: CakeEater on August 02, 2013, 11:35:05 PM
I'm in that category (or was when DS was younger - now that he is a teen, he is remarkably better behaved. I believe he is learning how to cope with his Autistic information overload better than he did as a young child).
It was hard enough dealing with him - absolutely exhausting. It wasn't helped when strangers decided to get judgmental about our parenting techniques. I felt like saying "You want a shot at figuring him out?  Feel free! Take him home and you will be begging me to take him back in 24 hours or less."

I hear ya!  I recall one of my students who was pretty darn well behaved, considering the severity of his autism.  Even so, we still had occasional meltdowns.  In the beginning, I'd phone his (awesome, amazing, and wonderful!) parents, who would help me figure out the probable cause.  As I grew more sophisticated and proactive about his needs, we had fewer and fewer problems.  We learned, for example, to escort him out of the room before putting a DVD in the player.  (The static on old pre-cable TVs was unbearable to him.)  Or always allowing him to finish an online reward video before moving to a new activity.  (He was never happy about exiting an unfinished activity.)

In many ways, it's a continuing detective story.  We -- parents and teachers alike -- have to figure out needs and triggers for which we have no personal reference.  The child is usually unable to explain.  Once we do figure them out, then we can accommodate and teach coping strategies.  But it takes a lot of time and a lot of patience, and the good results may not appear until the teenage years, as with your DS.

Your DS is very fortunate to have parents like you.  May the successes keep right on coming.

And with something like 1 in 88 kids now affected with some degree of autism, it's a fair bet that at least a few of the kids we pass by each day have it.
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: Emmy on August 03, 2013, 07:08:06 AM
I believe that some people work very hard at their parenting, and are blessed at the same time with kids who respond well to discipline. Some of these parents then feel quite proud of their efforts, believing the whole outcome of a well-behaved child to be through their excellent parenting, and quite happy to judge others. 'I worked hard at getting my kids to behave, and look - they do! If your kids don't behave, you just haven't worked hard enough.'

Others work doubly hard at their parenting and are not blessed with such children, and end up with children who are not as well-behaved. The mother/father who seems to be ineffective may have worked 5 times as hard at disciplining her child as the mother with the little angel sitting quietly beside them.

I agree with this.  In church, I was in a Sunday school class on parenting.  One mother confessed to being judgmental of parents who had children who misbehaved at the store.  This mother was humbled when her second child came along and was more stubborn than her first and now she was one of those parents with the child causing a scene in the store despite trying to train her child.  How children behave is part parenting and part the child's temperament which the parents do not have control over.  It is not a simple case of 'you get out of it what you put into it'.  Most people know families with more than one child who are very different despite having the same parents.

DD1 is well behaved in public.  I do train her, but I can't take credit for her temperament.  My heart goes out to parents who put in as much or more time and effort and don't have the same results.  It can be exhausting to simply get through the day if everything is a battle.
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: suzieQ on August 03, 2013, 08:25:56 AM
I believe that some people work very hard at their parenting, and are blessed at the same time with kids who respond well to discipline. Some of these parents then feel quite proud of their efforts, believing the whole outcome of a well-behaved child to be through their excellent parenting, and quite happy to judge others. 'I worked hard at getting my kids to behave, and look - they do! If your kids don't behave, you just haven't worked hard enough.'

Others work doubly hard at their parenting and are not blessed with such children, and end up with children who are not as well-behaved. The mother/father who seems to be ineffective may have worked 5 times as hard at disciplining her child as the mother with the little angel sitting quietly beside them.

I agree with this.  In church, I was in a Sunday school class on parenting.  One mother confessed to being judgmental of parents who had children who misbehaved at the store.  This mother was humbled when her second child came along and was more stubborn than her first and now she was one of those parents with the child causing a scene in the store despite trying to train her child.  How children behave is part parenting and part the child's temperament which the parents do not have control over.  It is not a simple case of 'you get out of it what you put into it'.  Most people know families with more than one child who are very different despite having the same parents.

DD1 is well behaved in public.  I do train her, but I can't take credit for her temperament.  My heart goes out to parents who put in as much or more time and effort and don't have the same results.  It can be exhausting to simply get through the day if everything is a battle.
The story of my life with DS. Good thing he was the second child. If he had been born first, I would have missed out on my wonderful DD because I wouldn't have had another child!
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: wonderfullyanonymous on August 03, 2013, 09:57:26 AM
My kids were al relatively well behaved. They were taught from a young age what was and was not acceptable behavior in a public place, and if they did misbehave, they would not like the consequences.

One day, I took my oldest 8ish and youngest 4ish to the store with me. After we were done shopping, my daughter asked if they could havea candy bar. I said yes, which I didn't do all the time, because they were good. I told them they could have them when we got home. The very second the candy bar hit the bag, my youngest turned into a butt head. I told him if he didn't stop being naughty he wouldn't get his candy bar when we got home. He did not stop.

We get home, I get the groceries put away, and my daughter asks if they can have their candy. I tell her she may have her, but your brother is not getting his for his naughty behavior in the store. I opened hers and gave it to her, and opened his and took a bite out of it. I told him he would not get his, and he stood there waiting.

My daughters chin hit the floor, and she asked if she could give him some of hers, and I told her no, he was naughty ion the store, he would not get it. He dropped onto the floor, and threw a tantrum. I told him he was not going to get his candy bar for how he behaved.

He never acted up again, like he did.
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: Minmom3 on August 03, 2013, 10:36:51 AM
I have 3 girls, all in their 20's now.  #1 was an easy baby and easy kid, up until she hit puberty.  Things changed big time with that, and she's been quite the pill since then.  She was frequently nasty to her sisters from then on, and a rude pain in the patoot to us. She's successful in her work world, has nice friends who think the world of her.  We hardly ever see her, by her choice.

#2 was quite different from #1 from the moment she was born.  Not a difficult baby, but a big change, so I had to catch up and learn how she was different.  Sneaky and devious from day one, in that she never regarded a 'no' has a reason to not do something, or that it would be unwise or dangerous, just that she should keep soldiering on with her goal and NOT LET ME KNOW about it...  Puberty wasn't the ugly thing with her it had been with #1.  We were talking one time when she was in high school (so 16 -18 years old) and she quite calmly told me that she KNEW how to behave, she KNEW what would make us happy and keep her out of trouble, and sometimes, she was just too angry to care, and would do what she pleased, knowing full well she'd eat dirt because of it.  She ran away the week after high school was over, came back 18 months later (older, sadder and wiser).  She's floundering a little at the moment, and I suspect depression may be a factor.  We talk occasionally, and I'd like to see more of her, but there are no hard feelings keeping her away, just lack of gas money.

#3 was yet again entirely different from her sisters.  EAsy baby.  Easy kid.  EAsy young lady now.  No big challenges at puberty.  Has her life on track right now, and is progressing up the work train to be self supporting in a field that interests her.  She claims she avoided a lot of the troubles her sisters had because 'she's not stupid; she SAW what they did and how much trouble they got in, and didn't want that to happen to her'.  Not sneaky and devious like #2.  Not the Golden Child either, she flubbed plenty, but she did manage to avoid making the same mistakes that got her sisters in trouble.  Our relat!onship with her is easier than it is with the other 2.  Mostly, it's because she's an easier going person than the other 2.

I say all this to help illustrate how different my children are, how hard it was for me to learn how different they all were and how differently I had to respond to them to get the results I wanted.  I don't think I was any better a parent for #3 than I was for #1, truth be told.  I have a world of sympathy and empathy for parents dealing with autistic kids - I know the hard times I had with MY kids, and they're neurotypical.  The challenges parents of autistic kids (or any other non neurotypical kid) face are in an entirely different league.  I think some of the issues we see of parenting out and about are due to poor planning and scheduling from the parent - i.e. if you take your kid shopping at nap time, it's going to get ugly!  Plan better next time!  A lot of older people were raised, or did their own raising, during more authoritarian times - and while public manners may have been better much of the time, not everybody raised that way came out well or whole.  Public manners, while important and helpful, are not all there is to life.
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: Jones on August 03, 2013, 11:14:29 AM
We get home, I get the groceries put away, and my daughter asks if they can have their candy. I tell her she may have her, but your brother is not getting his for his naughty behavior in the store. I opened hers and gave it to her, and opened his and took a bite out of it. I told him he would not get his, and he stood there waiting.

My daughters chin hit the floor, and she asked if she could give him some of hers, and I told her no, he was naughty ion the store, he would not get it. He dropped onto the floor, and threw a tantrum. I told him he was not going to get his candy bar for how he behaved.

He never acted up again, like he did.
My DD was a very good girl until about a year ago; every day has become a battle. I've tried this withholding treats thing several times this summer and it will.not.sink.in. All she gets from it is "I earned it, Mom said yes, Mom took it away when I was done earning it, why should I try earning something again?" Argh.
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: Free Range Hippy Chick on August 03, 2013, 11:30:24 AM

My DD was a very good girl until about a year ago; every day has become a battle. I've tried this withholding treats thing several times this summer and it will.not.sink.in. All she gets from it is "I earned it, Mom said yes, Mom took it away when I was done earning it, why should I try earning something again?" Argh.

Yup, I remember this one. There cannot, at that stage, be ANY delay on the reward. So chocolate when we get home in exchange for good behaviour in the supermarket won't work. It's either chocolate as soon as we clear the till, or the deal covers no tantrum in the car and carrying the bags into the house. Delayed gratification doesn't work with children. It does, fortunately, connect later.

It's more important for the parents - the countdown when the children are being horrible. Two more hours until bedtime, three more hours until the glass of  wine.
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: kherbert05 on August 03, 2013, 11:49:17 AM
I'm sure there were times people saw my family and thought my parents were being indulgent to me. There were times we were having to deal with the fact I was in massive pain. My expression then tends to be angry/defiant, when I'm dealing with that, because I grit my teeth. 
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: RegionMom on August 03, 2013, 12:08:44 PM
Not sure if I posted this here already?

Grocery stores here have a sample cookie or muffin, and most parents hand them to the child upon the start of the shopping trip. 

I would hold off until the end, reminding my two that if they behaved, a treat from the bakery was awaiting them.

A couple of times, one child would get said treat, and not the other, whether it was food or a free balloon.

That worked well for me.

As for size, my kids are small (DD will not be over 5'2'', 17 yr old son is 5'5") so I had the opposite- child would be 5 thought to be 3, or in HS, thought to be jr high, and thus amazed others with knowledge and maturity.

Yes, I know I had the good end of it.  And I shared that with my kids, so they did not let it get to their heads!  lol

At my baby shower, the best advice I was given was,

"The moment before you react is the most important moment."


(Choose your words, can you live with your decision, follow through, etc..)

And, we all have bad days.  a knowing smile from a stranger in a store is much better than a shrewd disapproving look. 

hugs to all the parents!

Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: wonderfullyanonymous on August 03, 2013, 12:28:30 PM
We get home, I get the groceries put away, and my daughter asks if they can have their candy. I tell her she may have her, but your brother is not getting his for his naughty behavior in the store. I opened hers and gave it to her, and opened his and took a bite out of it. I told him he would not get his, and he stood there waiting.

My daughters chin hit the floor, and she asked if she could give him some of hers, and I told her no, he was naughty ion the store, he would not get it. He dropped onto the floor, and threw a tantrum. I told him he was not going to get his candy bar for how he behaved.

He never acted up again, like he did.
My DD was a very good girl until about a year ago; every day has become a battle. I've tried this withholding treats thing several times this summer and it will.not.sink.in. All she gets from it is "I earned it, Mom said yes, Mom took it away when I was done earning it, why should I try earning something again?" Argh.

I honestly don't know if this would have worked had their only been one child, but when DS saw DD get her treat, and I reiterated to him that his behavior after buying said treat was the reason he lost it, sunk in.

My youngest DS, that kid tested me every step of the way. He was spanked 2 times when he was little. The first time did not stop his bad behavior, and we started a new form of discipline with him, the second one, he ran out into the road, I think I scared him more than anything, and he never went near the road again.

YDS's behavior modification came in the form of time-outs, I wouldn't let him watch his TV shows, I'd put on something I wanted to watch instead. I took away toys and books. He was a challenge when he was little.  We would walk into a store, he would ask if he could walk. I would say, okay, but you have to stay right by me, if you take off, you will be put in the cart. He would last less than 5 minutes before he was sitting in the seat of the cart.

I had people tell me he was like that because I was easier on him than I was on the other 2, but I had to be strickter with him.
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: CakeEater on August 03, 2013, 04:08:09 PM

I had people tell me he was like that because I was easier on him than I was on the other 2, but I had to be strickter with him.

Oh gosh, I hated people saying that DS was an easier baby because he was my second and I was obviously just more relaxed with him, as if a baby's whole personality is in response to their mother's state of mind. No. From the moment of birth, he was a different baby, and I did absolutely nothing different. I was, in fact, probably more stressed, because DD had been so difficult that I was all tense in anticipation of him ariving.

The doctor told me when I was 10 days overdue CRIVINS! him that I was the first pregnant woman he'd seen who was happy about being 10 days overdue. Hey, he was quiet in there, and easy to feed, and I could sleep, even if he was awake.
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: GSNW on August 03, 2013, 05:28:06 PM
Good one from today!  DH and I flew this morning on a 90-minute flight to visit FIL.  When we got to our seats, there were two kids under six in the row in front of us and one in the row behind.  I'll admit I did an inward sigh. 

However, the woman in front of us kept her kids engaged in conversation and they were quiet and perfectly pleasant.  The younger boy in the row behind us got very excited and started kind of shrieking in joy at take-off, and dad gently reminded him that he was too loud.

When we landed and there was the push to get off the plane, mom in front told her kids, "You will NOT push, you will NOT hurry, you WILL sit until I tell you to get up, and be patient."  She said this very nicely, but I appreciated that she was taking time to remind them of how to act in the smoosh of people.  Hooray!
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: turnip on August 03, 2013, 06:49:32 PM
We were on the plain with DD (2) not long ago.  On the way out a co-passenger complimented us on her behavior.  I smiled, but smirked inwardly - she had slept the whole flight!   Strangers are so bad at judging parenting that their opinion holds no value in my eyes.

Mostly, IHMO, when you judge other parents you are judging struggling people in the middle of a bad situation.  I occasionally get whiffs of judgment with DS, who is non-obviously but severely disabled. 
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: Micah on August 04, 2013, 05:19:05 PM
We were on the plain with DD (2) not long ago.  On the way out a co-passenger complimented us on her behavior.  I smiled, but smirked inwardly - she had slept the whole flight!   Strangers are so bad at judging parenting that their opinion holds no value in my eyes.

Mostly, IHMO, when you judge other parents you are judging struggling people in the middle of a bad situation.  I occasionally get whiffs of judgment with DS, who is non-obviously but severely disabled.

This! The random judgement of people who are seeing a snapshot in time means nothing to me. If I see a parent struggling with a tantruming child I never thing, "What a bad parent! She obviously does this, this and this....how dare she inflict her poor parenting on me!" I walk away feeling sympathetic, because I've been there. I've been there soooo many times. My son is six now and mostly well behaved, but it has taken YEARS to get there. I've done five different parenting courses, I've tried every discipline technique under the sun. Spanking has NEVER worked, time outs work sometimes. Removal of privileges works, sometimes. Reasoning with him works, sometimes. As other posters have said, children and not carbon copies. Every child is different, some are easier than others and some are oh, sooooo much harder.

My mother is the most patient person I know. She has raised four, respectful, successful children. She once told me, after I'd rung her in tears, completely at my wits end and feeling like the worst parent in the world, "Love, while I adore my grandchild completely, looking after him on his own is more difficult than taking care of three toddlers at once. You are doing the best you can with an incredibly opinionated, intelligent and stubborn child. Breathe, you'll get through this."

So, when I see a mother standing red faced at the check out, while her toddler writhes on the floor and screams, I think, "I wonder how many times she was woken last night because he/she just wouldn't STAY in bed? I wonder if that child's father ever takes the child and says, "Have a sleep, read a book, visit a friend, I can see you're not coping." And most of all, I know that feeling of red hot, burning embarrassment. The feeling of complete and utter failure and the desire to just sink into the floor, or burst into tears. But you don't, because you have to pay, scoop your child off the floor, wrestle him into the car seat and load the groceries, while people stare, glare and mutter because you MUST be doing something terribly wrong for your child to behave like that. Only children who aren't disciplined throw tantrums, and we should go back to the day when you just got out the wooden spoon when you got home.
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: AnnaJ on August 04, 2013, 05:42:37 PM
A huge part of our perception about parents and children comes from the fact that kids are in the public far more than they were a few decades ago.  As a mid-baby boomer, I and my friends spent a lot more time at home (well, playing in the neighborhood) - restaurants meals were very infrequent, maybe three or four times a year; we didn't always go to the store with mom and shopping trips were also infrequent.

I'm not saying this in a 'things were better then' tone, but pointing out that we had a lot more down time to be kids, outside of the public eye, and adults were less exposed to poor behavior in restaurants, stores, airplanes, and other places.
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: wonderfullyanonymous on August 04, 2013, 09:36:09 PM
IMHO, I feel that it's how a parent approaches a punishment. If you tell a child that they are going to have X happen if Y continues happening, then you do it. No reasoning, no need to keep explaining, no second chances.

"Child, I told you to stop doing X, we are now doing Y." No need to keep talking to child at that point, except maybe to say, I will be back when you are done with Y.

Kids learn that if you are not serious about the punishment, they can walk all over you. You, being the parent, must instill discipline. It's not always easy, but it's a necessary evil.

As a cashier, I can tell what parents are consistant, and what parents aren't. When a look stops a kid dead in his/her tracks, I know that parent does not mess around.

The kid who stands there and says please 1000 times, until his/her mom finally says yes, has beat the system. My "favorites" are the ones who throw a tantrum until their mother says, "Fine, get it, now shut the "F" up."
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: CakeEater on August 04, 2013, 09:50:09 PM
We were on the plain with DD (2) not long ago.  On the way out a co-passenger complimented us on her behavior.  I smiled, but smirked inwardly - she had slept the whole flight!   Strangers are so bad at judging parenting that their opinion holds no value in my eyes.

Mostly, IHMO, when you judge other parents you are judging struggling people in the middle of a bad situation.  I occasionally get whiffs of judgment with DS, who is non-obviously but severely disabled.

This! The random judgement of people who are seeing a snapshot in time means nothing to me. If I see a parent struggling with a tantruming child I never thing, "What a bad parent! She obviously does this, this and this....how dare she inflict her poor parenting on me!" I walk away feeling sympathetic, because I've been there. I've been there soooo many times. My son is six now and mostly well behaved, but it has taken YEARS to get there. I've done five different parenting courses, I've tried every discipline technique under the sun. Spanking has NEVER worked, time outs work sometimes. Removal of privileges works, sometimes. Reasoning with him works, sometimes. As other posters have said, children and not carbon copies. Every child is different, some are easier than others and some are oh, sooooo much harder.

My mother is the most patient person I know. She has raised four, respectful, successful children. She once told me, after I'd rung her in tears, completely at my wits end and feeling like the worst parent in the world, "Love, while I adore my grandchild completely, looking after him on his own is more difficult than taking care of three toddlers at once. You are doing the best you can with an incredibly opinionated, intelligent and stubborn child. Breathe, you'll get through this."

So, when I see a mother standing red faced at the check out, while her toddler writhes on the floor and screams, I think, "I wonder how many times she was woken last night because he/she just wouldn't STAY in bed? I wonder if that child's father ever takes the child and says, "Have a sleep, read a book, visit a friend, I can see you're not coping." And most of all, I know that feeling of red hot, burning embarrassment. The feeling of complete and utter failure and the desire to just sink into the floor, or burst into tears. But you don't, because you have to pay, scoop your child off the floor, wrestle him into the car seat and load the groceries, while people stare, glare and mutter because you MUST be doing something terribly wrong for your child to behave like that. Only children who aren't disciplined throw tantrums, and we should go back to the day when you just got out the wooden spoon when you got home.

I think I love you.
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: Piratelvr1121 on August 04, 2013, 10:05:05 PM
I love a phrase my friend told me about once, that her mother used to use.  "No one performs without an audience".  It was mentioned when my oldest son would burst into tears and cry that I was being sooooooooooooo unfair" then stomp to his room and make a big production of crying so that we would be sure to know just how miserable he was.

Now for the most part he's grown out of it, partly due to age, and partly because I did follow friend's advice and when he'd start in on one of his arias, as friend called them, I'd just pretend I couldn't hear it even though I really wanted to scream at him to knock it off.   Though that's a lot easier to stick to at home than it is in public, but then he really only did that sort of thing at home.
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: nayberry on August 05, 2013, 02:32:23 AM
loving the variety of responses,  just for the record, as i don't have children i go by my babysitting experience (yes i know its very different).

my friends child pushes the limits with her parents but she knows i won't stand for pouting and crying when she gets told no.


i suppose my main viewpoint is from growing up knowing what was and wasn't accepted by my parents.  we were all very well behaved when out (if i do say so myself) as if we'd misbehaved that was it home and no treats.  i never even had a teenage rebellion as i'm the very sensible one, although my younger sib's, oyyy!!!!
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: medowynd on August 05, 2013, 10:41:31 AM
I know children can be difficult and throw tantrums at the most awkward moments.  The one instance that irks me is when the child is having a fit and the parent, usually the mother, stands there, covering her face with embarrassment and not addressing the child.  I know a tantruming child is embarrassing, but covering your face is not going to make it stop.  On one occasion, the head clerk walked over to the child and said that they do not allow screaming in the store.  The child stopped, rather in shock, and the mother continued to try to hide her face.  The oblivious father continued to unload the cart and completely ignored what was going on.
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: asb8 on August 05, 2013, 11:44:07 AM
The one instance that irks me is when the child is having a fit and the parent, usually the mother, stands there, covering her face with embarrassment and not addressing the child. 

I don't have kids but I frequently babysit my godson and I must say, he tantrums when he wants attention (stop looking at the apples and sing LOUDLY to meeeeee"!) or when he wants to leave wherever we are (this kid is a homebody and will make it clear when he done with whatever errand we are running).  If I speak to him, even to tell him to stop, its rewarding what he wants.  Not acknowledging the fit is the only way his parents are breaking him of this habit. 

The "I want to leave" tantrums are sooo hard to deal with, because I don't want to subject the public to it but if I take him out then I'm rewarding the behavior.
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: AnnaJ on August 05, 2013, 12:08:47 PM
Quote
The "I want to leave" tantrums are sooo hard to deal with, because I don't want to subject the public to it but if I take him out then I'm rewarding the behavior.

Is there an immediate followup punishment that you find effective?  Something that makes it clear that you may have left but it's not a win for him because 'X' will happen?  To be clear, I'm not advocating anything that goes against your personal parenting ethics, but something that you already do in other circumstances.

I say this because I understand what you're trying to accomplish, but I've been in stores where multiple children have been tantruming and I've simply walked out with a headache - and restaurants?  I'm out of there, having told the manager exactly why.  When people see parents not removing screaming children from stores it does look as though they (parents) are ignoring the situation, which doesn't create a lot of good feelings.
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: turnip on August 05, 2013, 12:45:56 PM
I love a phrase my friend told me about once, that her mother used to use.  "No one performs without an audience". 

I'd be a much happier person if I didn't know how very wrong your friend and her mom were.  A better saying - "No one knows what other people are struggling with". 
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: asb8 on August 05, 2013, 01:08:38 PM
Quote
The "I want to leave" tantrums are sooo hard to deal with, because I don't want to subject the public to it but if I take him out then I'm rewarding the behavior.

Is there an immediate followup punishment that you find effective?  Something that makes it clear that you may have left but it's not a win for him because 'X' will happen?  To be clear, I'm not advocating anything that goes against your personal parenting ethics, but something that you already do in other circumstances.

I say this because I understand what you're trying to accomplish, but I've been in stores where multiple children have been tantruming and I've simply walked out with a headache - and restaurants?  I'm out of there, having told the manager exactly why.  When people see parents not removing screaming children from stores it does look as though they (parents) are ignoring the situation, which doesn't create a lot of good feelings.

Unfortunately, he's barely 2 and he's not good at making the 'I did this wrong thing, so this unpleasant thing happened' connection yet. When he's in that mood, the unpleasant consequence is staying in the store.  Right now, his parents (and by extension me when I have him) will leave and come back later if they are not within 5-10 minutes of being able to check out and go.  If they are very close to the end, they'll hustle and finish.

This really is making his mother crazy. She tries small trips, long trips, toys to distract him, let him ride, let him walk, go right after the nap, go in the sweet spot between naps, different stores, different times of day. He does this with me, with Mommy, with Daddy.  There is no predictable pattern or variable to eliminate.  Makes errand running soooo much fun!
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: AnnaJ on August 05, 2013, 01:29:08 PM
Quote
The "I want to leave" tantrums are sooo hard to deal with, because I don't want to subject the public to it but if I take him out then I'm rewarding the behavior.

Is there an immediate followup punishment that you find effective?  Something that makes it clear that you may have left but it's not a win for him because 'X' will happen?  To be clear, I'm not advocating anything that goes against your personal parenting ethics, but something that you already do in other circumstances.

I say this because I understand what you're trying to accomplish, but I've been in stores where multiple children have been tantruming and I've simply walked out with a headache - and restaurants?  I'm out of there, having told the manager exactly why.  When people see parents not removing screaming children from stores it does look as though they (parents) are ignoring the situation, which doesn't create a lot of good feelings.

Unfortunately, he's barely 2 and he's not good at making the 'I did this wrong thing, so this unpleasant thing happened' connection yet. When he's in that mood, the unpleasant consequence is staying in the store.  Right now, his parents (and by extension me when I have him) will leave and come back later if they are not within 5-10 minutes of being able to check out and go.  If they are very close to the end, they'll hustle and finish.

This really is making his mother crazy. She tries small trips, long trips, toys to distract him, let him ride, let him walk, go right after the nap, go in the sweet spot between naps, different stores, different times of day. He does this with me, with Mommy, with Daddy.  There is no predictable pattern or variable to eliminate.  Makes errand running soooo much fun!

But he's already making the connection between "I have screaming tantrum" and "We leave the store"...I suspect he's pretty capable of making the connection the other way as long as the consequences are immediate.  The other choice is to cobble together a system that allows the adults involved to run errands with little one for awhile and let him grow out of this stage.  Either way, good luck to all.
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: asb8 on August 05, 2013, 01:32:28 PM
Quote
The "I want to leave" tantrums are sooo hard to deal with, because I don't want to subject the public to it but if I take him out then I'm rewarding the behavior.

Is there an immediate followup punishment that you find effective?  Something that makes it clear that you may have left but it's not a win for him because 'X' will happen?  To be clear, I'm not advocating anything that goes against your personal parenting ethics, but something that you already do in other circumstances.

I say this because I understand what you're trying to accomplish, but I've been in stores where multiple children have been tantruming and I've simply walked out with a headache - and restaurants?  I'm out of there, having told the manager exactly why.  When people see parents not removing screaming children from stores it does look as though they (parents) are ignoring the situation, which doesn't create a lot of good feelings.

Unfortunately, he's barely 2 and he's not good at making the 'I did this wrong thing, so this unpleasant thing happened' connection yet. When he's in that mood, the unpleasant consequence is staying in the store.  Right now, his parents (and by extension me when I have him) will leave and come back later if they are not within 5-10 minutes of being able to check out and go.  If they are very close to the end, they'll hustle and finish.

This really is making his mother crazy. She tries small trips, long trips, toys to distract him, let him ride, let him walk, go right after the nap, go in the sweet spot between naps, different stores, different times of day. He does this with me, with Mommy, with Daddy.  There is no predictable pattern or variable to eliminate.  Makes errand running soooo much fun!

But he's already making the connection between "I have screaming tantrum" and "We leave the store"...I suspect he's pretty capable of making the connection the other way as long as the consequences are immediate.  The other choice is to cobble together a system that allows the adults involved to run errands with little one for awhile and let him grow out of this stage.  Either way, good luck to all.

That's pretty much the conclusion his parents have come to.  Like I said, all involved parties recognize that the No One wants to deal with a  tantrum. Even those (parents, doting godmother) who are obligated too.  ;D
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: wonderfullyanonymous on August 05, 2013, 03:05:05 PM
I think too, the way a parent approaches a tantrum has a lot to do with the outcome as well.

A firmly said, "You will stop that right now, a tantrum is NOT acceptable!" Said, with a firm voice and while making eye contact, and the pointer finger placed near child face, has a lot more meaning than,

"Now child, you need to stop doing that, it's not very nice." said in a sing song voice.

A 10-11 month old baby and older knows parent is not kidding when something is said firmly.  My kids knew, that if I broke out "that" voice, all bad behaviors better stop, or ugliness will ensue.

While they did act up, they knew how to behave in the stores, sit down restaurants, and other places of business. When you have kids that strangers will go out of their way to compliment, or your kids are questioning the behavior of other peoples children, somewhere along the lines you know you've done something right.

Some people say that kids shouldn't be allowed to go into nice restaurants. I have been going to high end sit down restaurants since I was little. Those were the only type of restaurants we went to as little ones. My parents raised us to know how to behave in them, and my kids were raised the same way.
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: Piratelvr1121 on August 05, 2013, 03:44:36 PM
I love a phrase my friend told me about once, that her mother used to use.  "No one performs without an audience". 

I'd be a much happier person if I didn't know how very wrong your friend and her mom were.  A better saying - "No one knows what other people are struggling with".

Well, while I never knew friend's mom, I'm sure she meant it to refer to people (such as neurotypical children or special snowflakes) who are definitely throwing a tantrum to get what they want or to have someone feel sorry for being so mean to them. 
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: CakeEater on August 05, 2013, 04:04:48 PM
I think too, the way a parent approaches a tantrum has a lot to do with the outcome as well.

A firmly said, "You will stop that right now, a tantrum is NOT acceptable!" Said, with a firm voice and while making eye contact, and the pointer finger placed near child face, has a lot more meaning than,

"Now child, you need to stop doing that, it's not very nice." said in a sing song voice.

A 10-11 month old baby and older knows parent is not kidding when something is said firmly.  My kids knew, that if I broke out "that" voice, all bad behaviors better stop, or ugliness will ensue.

While they did act up, they knew how to behave in the stores, sit down restaurants, and other places of business. When you have kids that strangers will go out of their way to compliment, or your kids are questioning the behavior of other peoples children, somewhere along the lines you know you've done something right.

Some people say that kids shouldn't be allowed to go into nice restaurants. I have been going to high end sit down restaurants since I was little. Those were the only type of restaurants we went to as little ones. My parents raised us to know how to behave in them, and my kids were raised the same way.

When you say, 'ugliness will ensue', what, specifically do you mean? I see a lot of advice to just not put up with tantrums. In what way do you not put up with them?

This is the kind of judgement I was referring to earlier. 'My child stopped screaming when I told them firmly to stop. My child stops when I give them a look.' Well, that's great that your child responds like that. I invite anyone to come spend a week (month, year?) at my house and firmly tell my two-year-old to stop one of his tantrums. Tell him that every day for that month and see if it's easier or harder by the last day of the month. Break out whatever ugliness you like. Leave the room, take away he audience. Watch as he spends the next 90 minutes (without exaggeration) following you around screaming.

I would genuinely like someone to come and do that and really find out if it's me who's doing it wrong. Because I don't think it is. Becasue I've done all that. I've done it consistently. I've left shops when the screaming has started. I've not put up wih tantrums. I've not given in to screaming for items.

Please don't assume that what works for one child would just work for every child if only their parents would do it better.
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: asb8 on August 05, 2013, 04:29:14 PM
That's where I'm coming from CakeEater.  My godson starts up for one of two reasons: he feels he isn't getting enough attention or he wants to go home.  Turning our attention to him, even negatively (firm voice, the Look) is actually giving him what he wants.  Removing him from the store is giving him what he wants. In both scenarios, he then stops the fit.  But now the cycle is being reinforced.  My friend is incredibly frustrated. She knows that letting her 2-year-old tantrum in public isn't right and for her, that now means being housebound until he grows out of this stage.

For this kid, not tolerating would mean continuing to shop/bank/run errands while he screams.  And she's not about to subject the world at large to this.
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: turnip on August 05, 2013, 04:30:35 PM
I think too, the way a parent approaches a tantrum has a lot to do with the outcome as well.

A firmly said, "You will stop that right now, a tantrum is NOT acceptable!" Said, with a firm voice and while making eye contact, and the pointer finger placed near child face, has a lot more meaning than,

"Now child, you need to stop doing that, it's not very nice." said in a sing song voice.

A 10-11 month old baby and older knows parent is not kidding when something is said firmly.  My kids knew, that if I broke out "that" voice, all bad behaviors better stop, or ugliness will ensue.

While they did act up, they knew how to behave in the stores, sit down restaurants, and other places of business. When you have kids that strangers will go out of their way to compliment, or your kids are questioning the behavior of other peoples children, somewhere along the lines you know you've done something right.

Some people say that kids shouldn't be allowed to go into nice restaurants. I have been going to high end sit down restaurants since I was little. Those were the only type of restaurants we went to as little ones. My parents raised us to know how to behave in them, and my kids were raised the same way.

When you say, 'ugliness will ensue', what, specifically do you mean? I see a lot of advice to just not put up with tantrums. In what way do you not put up with them?

This is the kind of judgement I was referring to earlier. 'My child stopped screaming when I told them firmly to stop. My child stops when I give them a look.' Well, that's great that your child responds like that. I invite anyone to come spend a week (month, year?) at my house and firmly tell my two-year-old to stop one of his tantrums. Tell him that every day for that month and see if it's easier or harder by the last day of the month. Break out whatever ugliness you like. Leave the room, take away he audience. Watch as he spends the next 90 minutes (without exaggeration) following you around screaming.

I would genuinely like someone to come and do that and really find out if it's me who's doing it wrong. Because I don't think it is. Becasue I've done all that. I've done it consistently. I've left shops when the screaming has started. I've not put up wih tantrums. I've not given in to screaming for items.

Please don't assume that what works for one child would just work for every child if only their parents would do it better.


<hugs>

We've been working with DS for 3 years with a score of behavioral therapists.  But I'm sure the person in the grocery store knows more than any of us. 

I once got pretty sarcastic with someone who said we 'just' need to 'nip < negative behaviors > in the bud!' .    Geez, my son's case manager has 20 years of working with autistic kids, a degree in child psych, and spends weeks every year attending behavior conferences - but I bet it never occurred to her to 'just nip it in the bud!'.  We ought to write a book and watch the money pour in from grateful parents who've eliminated all their children's behavior problems!
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: Rohanna on August 05, 2013, 04:34:25 PM
Not everyone *can* be "housebound" for years though. I have a good friend who is a widow with a 2 year old- she cannot afford childcare every time she needs to go get milk or renew a licence. There is no grocery delivery in my town, even if she could afford it- and the only family she has is very elderly. It's a very sheltered and frankly ignorant attitude to think that every parent has the family and resources to pick up the errands of daily life for them. It would be rude to annoy diners at a nice restaurant, or a movie theatre- things that are luxuries- but groceries, bill paying and transit are generally necessities- and sometimes the public has to deal with other members of the public when they aren't at their best.
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: LeveeWoman on August 05, 2013, 04:36:04 PM
Not everyone *can* be "housebound" for years though. I have a good friend who is a widow with a 2 year old- she cannot afford childcare every time she needs to go get milk or renew a licence. There is no grocery delivery in my town, even if she could afford it- and the only family she has is very elderly. It's a very sheltered and frankly ignorant attitude to think that every parent has the family and resources to pick up the errands of daily life for them. It would be rude to annoy diners at a nice restaurant, or a movie theatre- things that are luxuries- but groceries, bill paying and transit are generally necessities- and sometimes the public has to deal with other members of the public when they aren't at their best.

Word!
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: Jones on August 05, 2013, 04:43:54 PM
I wish my DS would stop a behavior when given a voice and a finger! He's broken out laughing at that before. Fortunately the only tantrums from him are bedtime, and those are far between. Generally his misbehaviors are attempting to run ahead of us at the grocery store instead of sticking to the cart, and related behaviors (kid likes to explore). He will cry briefly when strapped into a cart but it's not a tantrum. Firm words do nothing though...he accepts action consequences but not words.
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: StuffedGrapeLeaves on August 05, 2013, 04:51:23 PM

Please don't assume that what works for one child would just work for every child if only their parents would do it better.

Thank you for saying this, CakeEater.  My DS is the same as yours.  Nothing worked, even when we did it consistently.

Fortunately now that he's four, he has outgrown a lot of the frustrating behaviors.  Hang in there, it will get better. 
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: CakeEater on August 05, 2013, 06:09:48 PM

Please don't assume that what works for one child would just work for every child if only their parents would do it better.

Thank you for saying this, CakeEater.  My DS is the same as yours.  Nothing worked, even when we did it consistently.

Fortunately now that he's four, he has outgrown a lot of the frustrating behaviors.  Hang in there, it will get better.

Yes, I'm hanging out for him to grow out of this horrible toddler thing. And I struggle to keep a smile on my face when the 15th person tells me to 'enjoy them when they're little, they grow up too fast!' The faster, the better at this point! I've given DH permission to slap me over the head if I say that to anyone when my kids are older.  ;)

Don't get me wrong, I'm certainly not advocating that people do nothing when their kids throw tantrums, or that consistency isn't important. I think, as a general principal, that consistency is a great idea, and that people should work towards helping their kids learn that tantrums aren't a good way to behave.

I'm just very cautious about judging a particular parent's whole parenting ability from the one or two, or even five instances you see them doing what you think is the wrong thing in that situation.

My 4-year-old DD has autism, and while we're very lucky that she has very few of the sensory issues that affect many kids with that condition, one she does have problems with is wet clothes. If her clothes get wet, it's a sensation she finds absolutely intorerable. She had very little language to communicate this up until quite recently, so would let loose with a lot of screaming and struggling to get the offending piece of clothing off.

The goal, worked out with our therapists, was to extend the time she could put up with wet clothes, but to get them off pretty quickly.  So if we are out, and a splash of a drink gets on her T-shirt, things get pretty loud. I'm sure it looks, to casual passersby, as though I'm giving in to a tantrum when I'm doing exactly what she wants while she's screaming. But that's not what I'm doing at all. I'm removing the source of the tantrum, which will not stop until the sensation is removed. She is getting a lot better about being able to tolerate this sensation, and now she has more language, she's much more able to ask for a dry shirt than scream.

And she has stopped the screaming, even while I 'gave in' to it every single time, because the cause wasn't bad behaviour. She's also quite tall for her age, so I'm sure it looked like she was too old to be crying like that, and that I was a terrible parent for doing what she wanted. The proof that I was, in fact, doing exactly the right thing is that she has worked out how to deal with this issue, and it's no longer an issue, usually.
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: wonderfullyanonymous on August 05, 2013, 08:33:22 PM
The "ugliness" I was referring to, would have been time-outs, or taking things away. While you as parents may be consistant, all it would take is one other person to give in 1 time. Thankfully, their father and I, plus all the grandparents treated everything the same.

My DD, is having a problem because one grandparent gves in to her daughter, DGD. It does affect things on my end of things too. If DGD, wants something, she has been taught by other grandmother that fussing, and tantrumming will get her what she wants.

I would never walk up to a parent and tell them they were parenting wrong, ever. I do feel that not acknowledging a tantrum in a public place runs on the edge of rude. One day at work, we had so many screamers all the cashiers were snapping at everyone. You, as a parent, deal with one child, we have to deal with all of them.

When my youngest was little, people would come up to me and say "Oh, he's so cute!!" I would reply, "It's the only thing that keeps him alive."
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: Piratelvr1121 on August 05, 2013, 09:26:51 PM
I've been known say something like that, myself.  :)  Even in a loving teasing way to the boys. "It's a good thing you're so cute, it keeps you alive..."
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: Minmom3 on August 06, 2013, 12:09:21 AM
There were times in my life when the girls were little and sometimes horribly behaved.  Mine are all neurotypical. But still, they were -  Pigheaded.  Devious.  Smart.  Really Loud.  Zip impulse control.  It made going out and about really difficult at times, and I have felt HUGE sympathy for single parents dealing with the same stuff.  There were days on end when I spent the entire day angry at one or more of them the ENTIRE DAY.  I'd finish up the day feeling like the lowliest worm, a despicable and incapable mother.  I started going in and looking at them sleeping just before I went to bed.  They were beautiful, quiet, well behaved, and out cold.  I could look at them and NOT be angry, NOT be harried, and I COULD feel loving towards them.  Sometimes, that little bit of sweetness was nearly the only easy and peaceful part of the day. 

Heh - a harried mom funny for you all:  #3 was and is the easiest going child of all of them.  She DID however, like to run away, and would do so with gusto.  She also liked to stand up in the grocery cart, and at 3 years old, she stood up and tipped over a half loaded cart.  By some miracle, she didn't get hurt, but she scared me a LOT.  So, to foil the running away and the grocery antics, I bought a harness with a long lead on it.  The lead needed to be longer, so I bought and clipped a leash to it.  When shopping, the lead from the harness was threaded down through the child seat to the bottom of the grocery cart, and then wrapped around her and the cart until all the extra was used up, and she looked a bit like a rainbow mummy, as the lead from the harness and the leash were both rainbow striped.  It was nuts...  It took me a good 3 minutes to get her in and fastened, and another 3 to get her out again back at the car.  The groceries had to sit in the rain while I got the kid out of the grocery cart and buckled into her car seat. 

I got plenty of stink eye from old ladies at the harness and the grocery cart tie downs, but you know what?  When I used them, I didn't HAVE to call security in a panic because I couldn't find my child.  I didn't have to hunt her down inside the door, and wonder if she'd made it out the door to the street yet.  I also didn't have to worry about her safety at the grocery store, and she also couldn't reach over and pluck things from the shelves and toss them into the cart.  It looked a little silly to have her so strapped down, but it kept her safe.  I got a LOT of practice at telling people to mind their own business, but I ALSO got a lot of praise from store personnel for keeping my child with me and safe.
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: Piratelvr1121 on August 06, 2013, 07:04:37 AM
I had to get a leash for my oldest child.  It wasn't so much that he liked to run off as it was he'd see something and just take off.  And when it was just him, I could keep tabs on him easily, though by the time he started walking I was already about 4 months pregnant with my second, and  once my second child was born, it got a lot harder.  I'd be bending over to check on the baby, look up and poof, oldest pirate had disappeared.  Not that he'd gone far, but it was out of sight enough to scare the bejaysus out of me half the time. 

I had always hated those leash things but I broke down when I found out how useful they can be.  Even at home, I had one of those doorknob covers that's supposed to keep kids from opening the door, and I had it on the front door since he'd been trying to get out.  I had a hard time opening the door with this thing on so I was sure he couldn't do it.  So satisfied, I went to the bathroom. 

Came out and there was the door opened and the little cover in two pieces on the floor.  Thankfully he was just in the front yard but man, that kid was good at escaping.
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: wonderfullyanonymous on August 06, 2013, 09:04:24 AM
DYS, could open any child safe cabinet, or door protector. We installed, at the top of the door, a slide lock, to keep him inside. I once found him, standing on a kitchen chair trying to reach said lock.

The carseat we had him in had split arms on it, and they locked him into the carseat. I used a clipping chest attatchment, backwards so he couldn't get out of it. I had to make sure all belts and harnesses were on tight, or he could manipulate his little spider fingers around things to unlock them. The grocery cart belts he could open and close at 9 months.

We lived on the second floor of a 2 family house, and in the summer, I would leave the door open for air flow. I gated the stairs. He climbed over the gate, and fell down the stairs. I raised the gate up a few inches off the floor, he pushed the gate out from the bottom and fell down the stairs again. Finally, I put a rubbermaid tote under the gate, pushed down on the gate to make it tight on the tote and locked it in place. He was too short to climb on top of the tote.

He did all that before he could walk. He was also on a crib mattress on the floor, because he kept climbing out of his crib, before he could walk. I think if I would have had him first, there would not have been any more. He was my third, and some days made me seriously wonder why I wanted kids.
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: Eden on August 06, 2013, 09:12:13 AM
I generally do not judge when a child is throwing a tantrum because I recognize even the best kid has a bad day. And I don't really think much if a child does something naughty. What kid doesn't. It's only when I see a parent ignoring the bad behavior (like the lady the other day who let her little ones run into people and block the entire grocery aisle with their mini carts) or giving obviously empty threats that I get a little judgey.
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: Piratelvr1121 on August 06, 2013, 09:17:28 AM
Funny thing is my youngest will buckle himself into things.   I think it's partly because he just likes fastening the buckle. Put him in a grocery cart, he looks for the seatbelt.  In the car seat, he tries to buckle himself in.  He'll do the high chair buckles even when he's not sitting in it. 

At his age (21 months) his brothers were bucking and doing all they could to avoid getting buckled into things.  Actually he's been a really easy and pleasant little baby.  Sure he's getting a bit of an attitude as 2 creeps in on us, and has some tantrums, but they're not that bad and he rarely if ever tantrums in public as long as he's well rested. 

And often when I hear a kid tantruming in public, I do tend to feel sympathetic towards the parent more than judging them. I don't always succeed at the no judging part, but I do try not to. 
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: Outdoor Girl on August 06, 2013, 09:24:02 AM
When I see kids with those leashes attached to a backpack or body harness, my first thought is that the kid is a runner and Mom/Dad is doing her/his best to keep him/her safe and uninjured.  So much better for the kid's arm joints to have the leash than to be holding on to his/her arm and tugging on it when s/he tries to make a break for it.  And if the kid really does make a break for it, tugging on the harness tugs their whole body and if you really need to pull, if they are heading into traffic, for example, they land on their butt if they fall.  Good padding there, since most kids that age are still in diapers, too.

I'm not, nor will I ever be, a parent.  But I remember my youngest nephew.  We were camping.  He started making a break for it towards the lake.  So I started after him.  The little so-and-so kept looking back at me to make sure I was following him and then he'd just go faster.  I always wondered what would have happened if I'd stopped chasing him.  But I wasn't willing to risk it with the lake relatively nearby.  Fortunately, he's grown up into a fine young man and he's off to University this September.  His older brother is a good 'kid' too.
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: wonderfullyanonymous on August 06, 2013, 01:40:46 PM
I should add, that while a child tantrumming just destroys every nerve in my body, I would much rather a parent let them tantrum that give in to their demands.

"CRUD MONKEYS!, FINE, get what you want, and shut the "F" up" never taught a kid anything.
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: shygirl on August 06, 2013, 01:57:59 PM
I don't think good parenting is making any kind of comeback. I think there has always been good parents and parents who have had less idea about what to do, and kids who don't respond easily to techniques that do work easily for other families.

And there are parents who desperately need to get done whatever it is they're doing in public, and really need the kid with them to be quiet on that one day and are giving in where they usually wouldn't, knowling that it will come back to bite them later.

It's great to be complimentary about people's parenting, and we should be careful not to be overly judgemental about people who are doing something we think is 'wrong' in a particular situation.

This is so true.  About a year ago, I posted about some troubles I was having while grocery shopping with my 2yo son.  When I wrote that one way I got him to behave so I could buy some food was to feed him french fries while we were shopping, a lot of people wrote back to say things like my son was training me to give into his demands, or that I was spoiling him, etc.  I was pretty insulted by that. 

I'm happy to say now that my son, who just turned 3, is very well behaved while shopping.  I don't need to bribe him with anything to behave well, and he either sits in the cart or walks along next to the cart while holding the cart.  He does whine a bit for M&Ms in the checkout line, but after I say once or twice, he keeps quiet.
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: Piratelvr1121 on August 06, 2013, 02:13:55 PM
And oh, as for kids figuring out child safety measures, my youngest has now figured out how to open up the baby gate that leads from the living room to the kitchen.  I was in the living room with him last night while my older two were watching Ben 10 on my phone in the kitchen.  Piratebabe wanted to go see his brothers and he managed to open the gate 3 times. 

Each time he was brought back and Pirateboy2 refused to believe Piratebabe had figured out the gate.  He was sure I'd let him though even though I swore I hadn't.
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: Sophia on August 06, 2013, 04:37:43 PM
...That's pretty much the conclusion his parents have come to.  Like I said, all involved parties recognize that the No One wants to deal with a  tantrum. Even those (parents, doting godmother) who are obligated too.  ;D

Have you tried carrying him in an uncomfortable manner?

When walk-away isn't an option, I have picked up DD by the waist and let her feet and head dangle.  She gets so indignant at the position she is in, that she changes gears and wants down or to be held differently.  And, she is willing to promise good behavior. 
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: Piratelvr1121 on August 06, 2013, 04:52:30 PM
Or going out to sit in the car until the tantrum is over, for the child who wants to go home? That way he's not really getting what he wants, and will have to go back into the store once he's calmed down.

I know, it means you still have to hear it and interrupt your own shopping, so definitely not an ideal option but a possibility, perhaps?

The few times my youngest has gotten fussy during a trip, I just hurried to finish it up so I could get him home and put him down since at his age, the fussiness is usually due to tiredness.  When we went to the National Aquarium, we'd wanted to see the Australia exhibit but he still hadn't had his nap since he either didn't like the wrap or it was just too much going on for him to sleep (or both).  It was just as well since DH was about done with Bronycon and we had to get the stroller from the car and were going to meet him at the convention center. 

Boy wasn't in the stroller but two minutes and he fell asleep.
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: CakeEater on August 06, 2013, 05:33:41 PM
Two great ideas above, and great if they work.

I cart DS (2 1/2) out of shops, church, freinds' houses etc with my 'sack of potatoes' hold ie under one arm, because he weighs about 22kg now (tall, big built) and I can't carry him any other way while he's thrashing around and screaming. Makes no difference. He has no concept of undignified.

Screaming in the car sounds fine, but I often have DD with autism with me, and the option of sitting in the car with the screaming for upwards of an hour (which is how long the tantrums can take to abate) is just not an option. She wouldn't cope - I'd just have two kids in there screaming egging each other on. And I actually think listening to the screaming at close quarters, like in the car is causing me some hearing damage. My giant boy has an awesome set of lungs on him.

If we're close to home, we head home and cope with the noise for a few minutes. If we're not close to home, I have to do something to stop the noise. I can just imagine how long it would take for the police to show up if I stood outside the car in a car park and let him scream inside it for an hour.  Not to mention that the weather doesn't really allow that option at various times throughout the year.
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: Rohanna on August 06, 2013, 05:35:26 PM
The other problem with "just leaving" is that depending on what you have in your cart, you could be wasting food. I can't put back $30 of deli meat or a fresh chicken I picked up- and probably no one is going to want the fruit I've picked over either. I'd feel pretty wasteful leaving all that behind, and depending on what it was (like ice cream) it wouldn't last very well sitting in a cart while I went to deal with a tantrum. Sometimes with young kids the fussiness *isn't* going to end just by taking them outside- maybe they just want to be out and running around, or stretched out in their crib for a nap, or just simply away from noise lights and people.

It also presumes that people can come back later- you might work, or have to pick another child up, or be at an appointment, or feed a child/take meds at specific times, or have to do 100 other errands that day. Again, there is an assumption that every family has a parent that can devote a whole day to tasks no matter how long they take, with no accounting for schedule or responsibilities. It assumes you have a car to sit in, and don't have a bus schedule to worry about, or a walk home to make before dark while it's still safe.

Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: jedikaiti on August 06, 2013, 06:01:32 PM
Two great ideas above, and great if they work.

I cart DS (2 1/2) out of shops, church, freinds' houses etc with my 'sack of potatoes' hold ie under one arm, because he weighs about 22kg now (tall, big built) and I can't carry him any other way while he's thrashing around and screaming. Makes no difference. He has no concept of undignified.

Screaming in the car sounds fine, but I often have DD with autism with me, and the option of sitting in the car with the screaming for upwards of an hour (which is how long the tantrums can take to abate) is just not an option. She wouldn't cope - I'd just have two kids in there screaming egging each other on. And I actually think listening to the screaming at close quarters, like in the car is causing me some hearing damage. My giant boy has an awesome set of lungs on him.

If we're close to home, we head home and cope with the noise for a few minutes. If we're not close to home, I have to do something to stop the noise. I can just imagine how long it would take for the police to show up if I stood outside the car in a car park and let him scream inside it for an hour.  Not to mention that the weather doesn't really allow that option at various times throughout the year.

I just had an idea for a business... padded, soundproofed tantrum rooms. Available for kids or adults who just need a little scream therapy.

 ;)
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: CakeEater on August 06, 2013, 06:04:13 PM
The other problem with "just leaving" is that depending on what you have in your cart, you could be wasting food. I can't put back $30 of deli meat or a fresh chicken I picked up- and probably no one is going to want the fruit I've picked over either. I'd feel pretty wasteful leaving all that behind, and depending on what it was (like ice cream) it wouldn't last very well sitting in a cart while I went to deal with a tantrum. Sometimes with young kids the fussiness *isn't* going to end just by taking them outside- maybe they just want to be out and running around, or stretched out in their crib for a nap, or just simply away from noise lights and people.

It also presumes that people can come back later- you might work, or have to pick another child up, or be at an appointment, or feed a child/take meds at specific times, or have to do 100 other errands that day. Again, there is an assumption that every family has a parent that can devote a whole day to tasks no matter how long they take, with no accounting for schedule or responsibilities. It assumes you have a car to sit in, and don't have a bus schedule to worry about, or a walk home to make before dark while it's still safe.


^All of this as well.

Honestly, I'm not trying to sound argumentative, or shoot own every suggestion.

My point is that it's not that parents of difficult kids don't have any ideas about how to deal with their kids. It's that their kids don't respond as easily to the same sorts of techniques.





I just had an idea for a business... padded, soundproofed tantrum rooms. Available for kids or adults who just need a little scream therapy.

 ;)

Ha! Sign me up to buy the first one off your production line!
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: Piratelvr1121 on August 06, 2013, 06:06:39 PM
It would be nice if the same methods worked for all kids, would take so much of the guesswork out of parenting, wouldn't it?

I'll admit, I hate when people tell me "you can't be your kid's best friend!" Well no carp, I know that! I'm not trying to be their best friend!  Yes, I will admit in the past I was probably too easy on them but my hesitation to deliver tough love in the past was not out of fear of losing some mythical "Nicest mom ever" award, or worrying they wouldn't like me.  It was more due to the fact that, with the way I was raised I honestly didn't know where the line was between tough love and abusive, and I was terrified of crossing it and hurting my boys either physically or emotionally.

Now I've gotten better in recent years, but I still hear that from some folks and I would love to say "I'm not trying to be their friend, I'm working on breaking a cycle here, do you mind?"
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: CakeEater on August 06, 2013, 06:47:05 PM
Yes, and when the people who tell you you're being too easy on your kids leave, the ones who tell you you're being too hard on them arrive.

Everyone thinks they've arrived at the magical sweet spot between too tough and too soft, I think. And anyone who's easier on their kids than you are is some kind of hippy and anyone who's harder is a tyrant.

It's great to salute good parenting, I think. But unless you have really intimate knowledge of someone's parenting philosophy and actions, the issues their kids have, and other pressures in their family, no-one's in a position to judge whether someone else is a good parent. And especially if the judgement is based solely on the evidence of their kids' behaviour, and their action, or lack thereof, in a single situation.
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: Slartibartfast on August 06, 2013, 08:15:54 PM
Once when Babybartfast was around three and had a full-on meltdown at Target, I dragged her into the bathroom and turned on the hand dryers.  This particular Target has dryers which sound like repurposed F16 engines and Babybartfast still won't voluntarily use the bathroom there because they scare her.  They did, however, cover over the sounds of a tantrum very nicely, and as a bonus she behaves very well at that particular store now because she's scared I'll do it again.
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: esposita on August 07, 2013, 09:43:29 AM
Yes, and when the people who tell you you're being too easy on your kids leave, the ones who tell you you're being too hard on them arrive.

Everyone thinks they've arrived at the magical sweet spot between too tough and too soft, I think. And anyone who's easier on their kids than you are is some kind of hippy and anyone who's harder is a tyrant.

It's great to salute good parenting, I think. But unless you have really intimate knowledge of someone's parenting philosophy and actions, the issues their kids have, and other pressures in their family, no-one's in a position to judge whether someone else is a good parent. And especially if the judgement is based solely on the evidence of their kids' behaviour, and their action, or lack thereof, in a single situation.

Exactly. You said this so nicely!
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: CakeBeret on August 07, 2013, 10:30:40 AM
Once when Babybartfast was around three and had a full-on meltdown at Target, I dragged her into the bathroom and turned on the hand dryers.  This particular Target has dryers which sound like repurposed F16 engines and Babybartfast still won't voluntarily use the bathroom there because they scare her.  They did, however, cover over the sounds of a tantrum very nicely, and as a bonus she behaves very well at that particular store now because she's scared I'll do it again.

Creative parenting salute to you ;)
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: LadyL on August 07, 2013, 10:40:41 AM
Once when Babybartfast was around three and had a full-on meltdown at Target, I dragged her into the bathroom and turned on the hand dryers.  This particular Target has dryers which sound like repurposed F16 engines and Babybartfast still won't voluntarily use the bathroom there because they scare her.  They did, however, cover over the sounds of a tantrum very nicely, and as a bonus she behaves very well at that particular store now because she's scared I'll do it again.

This is brilliant! Instrumental conditioning at its finest.

I know that some people really hate comparisons of pets to children, but I will say that having a highly intelligent and stubborn cat has shown me that even if you do everything "right" they can still be a brat. Our cat went through a biting phase where he would go from sitting in your lap purring, to trying to playfully nip me. He wouldn't stop sometimes unless I kicked him out of the room completely. I tried scruffing him, saying "no!" firmly, blowing air in his face, anticipating the bites and kicking him off my lap beforehand, tossing him out of the room, and none of it worked. He hated me blowing in his face but one time I did it literally 8 times in a row (I was counting to see if it would work after a certain number of times), and all 8 times as soon as I stopped blowing he lunged back at me to bite. Finally I had to just keep water bottles all around the house to spray him as soon as he got started biting. Even still, he kept trying to do it, and only VERY recently has stopped. I think he grew out of it more than anything.
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: lowspark on August 07, 2013, 11:09:28 AM
Just now reading through this thread and I wanted to comment on the under-two year old who just wants to go home. Sometimes you just have to look at it from the kid's point of view. A two year old has so little control over anything in his life and when he's forced into a situation that he just doesn't want to be in, grocery shopping for example, there's little else for him to do but pitch a fit.

And I do understand that not everyone can be housebound. I was a single mom for a while so I really know that you just have to drag the kid(s) along on errands sometimes or they just won't get done.

So I used the preemptive method (along the lines of what shygirl mentioned). You give them the reward before the event and explain that this is payment in advance for behaving well. Yeah, it's a bribe. But I don't see it quite like that because in a case like this, you are asking the child to go above and beyond. You're asking him to put up with being tired/hungry/uncomfortable/whatever while you get your errand (which holds no meaning for the child) done.

As the child ages, s/he becomes better able to handle these situations and also becomes better able to communicate needs and annoyances without crying or screaming. Then the bribes can diminish and fall by the wayside.

But I see nothing wrong with a negotiation and peace offering in advance of putting your child in an uncomfortable situation over which s/he has no control. We do that sort of thing with adults all the time, right? I'll do this for you if you will do that for me in return.
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: mbbored on August 08, 2013, 08:27:37 PM
Just now reading through this thread and I wanted to comment on the under-two year old who just wants to go home. Sometimes you just have to look at it from the kid's point of view. A two year old has so little control over anything in his life and when he's forced into a situation that he just doesn't want to be in, grocery shopping for example, there's little else for him to do but pitch a fit.

And I do understand that not everyone can be housebound. I was a single mom for a while so I really know that you just have to drag the kid(s) along on errands sometimes or they just won't get done.

So I used the preemptive method (along the lines of what shygirl mentioned). You give them the reward before the event and explain that this is payment in advance for behaving well. Yeah, it's a bribe. But I don't see it quite like that because in a case like this, you are asking the child to go above and beyond. You're asking him to put up with being tired/hungry/uncomfortable/whatever while you get your errand (which holds no meaning for the child) done.

As the child ages, s/he becomes better able to handle these situations and also becomes better able to communicate needs and annoyances without crying or screaming. Then the bribes can diminish and fall by the wayside.

But I see nothing wrong with a negotiation and peace offering in advance of putting your child in an uncomfortable situation over which s/he has no control. We do that sort of thing with adults all the time, right? I'll do this for you if you will do that for me in return.

For the record, obviously I know that children are NOT pets. However when I had issues with my dog, this is what my behaviorist had me do. Reward him for good behavior when we're not in a stressful situation, right before we do something he doesn't like. That way he goes in in a good mood and with a positive association with an otherwise negative trigger.
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: Piratelvr1121 on August 08, 2013, 09:21:27 PM
Hm.  Maybe I'll start giving my littlest one a treat before bath time, maybe that would cut down on the caterwaulin' he does. 
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: Slartibartfast on August 09, 2013, 01:46:36 AM
Hm.  Maybe I'll start giving my littlest one a treat before bath time, maybe that would cut down on the caterwaulin' he does.

Is he old enough for multivitamins yet?  We keep ours in the basket under the showerhead (to prevent Babybartfast from helping herself at other times) and I think getting her vitamins - which, I'll admit, are basically gummy bears with a weird aftertaste - really does help her quit procrastinating and get upstairs to start her bedtime routine!
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: kherbert05 on August 09, 2013, 05:36:58 AM
I had one of those backpack for Loren one summer - after I had nasty allergic reaction. I couldn't hold her hand in a crowd, because my hands were raw. I most people who said anything wanted to know where to get one. One guy gave me the kids shouldn't be leashes thing. I held up my hands and said I can't hold her hand. She was good about staying with me.


The stories about runaways reminded me of this -
Last year we had an interesting trip to the zoo. Brett had this shirt on that was a weird shade of green. It was the exact same shade as the Zoo Day camp used for his age group. The staff kept trying to catch him thinking he was lost/a runaway from his group.
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: Piratelvr1121 on August 09, 2013, 06:31:24 AM
Hm.  Maybe I'll start giving my littlest one a treat before bath time, maybe that would cut down on the caterwaulin' he does.

Is he old enough for multivitamins yet?  We keep ours in the basket under the showerhead (to prevent Babybartfast from helping herself at other times) and I think getting her vitamins - which, I'll admit, are basically gummy bears with a weird aftertaste - really does help her quit procrastinating and get upstairs to start her bedtime routine!

Hmm, not a bad idea.  He's 21 months and he could handle a gummy vitamin. 
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: HoneyBee42 on August 13, 2013, 10:46:51 PM
One of my very good friends has a 6-year-old son with severe autism.  He's also HUGE for his age (bigger than most 9-10-year-olds).  She gets so many dirty looks from people who see him and judge him for not acting like the ten-year-old they expect him to be, who don't care that he's minimally verbal, mostly non-communicative, and SIX @#$#@ YEARS OLD.  I dare you to find even a genius-level neurotypical six-year-old who would behave like an ideal ten-year-old all the time!

Yes, that "big for age" can be a major trial, even with a neurotypical child--that would be my youngest son, who is currently 12 years old, stands in at 5'9", which would still put him at the top of the chart for boys a year older than he is.  He started out as my smallest child (5lbs, 17.5 inches at birth), but overtook his sister who was a half pound heavier and a half inch longer at birth by the time they were 4 months, and by the time that they were 2, his size was such that they looked like they were a year apart, and I've spent the better part of the last decade fending off people who want to be critical of him because they thought he was older than he actually is (or was at the time). 

Being a "top of the chart" child (or even off the chart on the high side) doesn't cause a child to develop faster in terms of maturity/speech development/coordination etc.  And it really gets old in a *hurry* when people think your child is 1-2 years older and expecting the behavior appropriate to a child who is 1-2 years older, and you're setting them straight with a "well, actually, he's only x-2" (where x = the age they think he is).  It also didn't help things that middle son was, until rather recently (he's been shooting up and is now a solid 50th percentile for height but is 1.5 inches shorter than his younger brother), a complete "bottom of the chart" child, such that his 34 month age advantage had him looking more like youngest son's twin, so people would get down on youngest son for not acting as mature as middle son ("well, actually, middle son is almost three years older than youngest son").  It has gotten a bit easier now that they're older, except for things like finding sneakers that a 12 year old likes in the size 12 men's shoe section.
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: TootsNYC on August 13, 2013, 11:08:10 PM
...That's pretty much the conclusion his parents have come to.  Like I said, all involved parties recognize that the No One wants to deal with a  tantrum. Even those (parents, doting godmother) who are obligated too.  ;D

Have you tried carrying him in an uncomfortable manner?

When walk-away isn't an option, I have picked up DD by the waist and let her feet and head dangle.  She gets so indignant at the position she is in, that she changes gears and wants down or to be held differently.  And, she is willing to promise good behavior.

When my youngest misbehaved, I make him walk with me while I held his *arm*. Not his hand--his arm, as if it was a handle, and he was a package.

He hated it. It is a little bit demeaning, to be honest. Not so bad that I really felt awful, but bad enough that I knew it was unusual and negative for him. So whatever it was he did, he didn't do it again!


Re: leashes. When I was in junior high or high school, they weren't being sold as a product. But we went to the Iowa State Fair, and there was a woman who had a genuine dog leash clipped to her son in some way.

My mom saw it, and said, "look at that!" and made a beeline for her. I was SO embarrassed, and the woman looked really defensive. Until my mother said, "you are SO smart! What a genius you are! I bet people have been saying stuff to you about that leash, right? Well, you just ignore them, because you are a good mother, to give you child the freedom to walk around on his own, and to keep him from being scared if he gets lost. I probably shouldn't have interrupted you, but I just wanted you to know that I admire you."

The woman looked SO relieved and said, "thank you! that's exactly how I feel about it, but you're right, I've gotten a lot of negative comments."
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: asb8 on August 14, 2013, 12:18:07 AM
...That's pretty much the conclusion his parents have come to.  Like I said, all involved parties recognize that the No One wants to deal with a  tantrum. Even those (parents, doting godmother) who are obligated too.  ;D

Have you tried carrying him in an uncomfortable manner?

When walk-away isn't an option, I have picked up DD by the waist and let her feet and head dangle.  She gets so indignant at the position she is in, that she changes gears and wants down or to be held differently.  And, she is willing to promise good behavior.

I call that maneuver the 'potato sack.'  His mom uses it but I've always been a little reluctant because he isn't *my* child and it feels all sorts of oversteppy.  Even thought she's told me its fine.  I also have time out privileges that feel a little funky but that might because he thrashes when put in time out and gave me a black eye once!  Let's say he's a um...spirited child.  ::)

I'll try the potato sack next time, simply because I can't stand being trapped in the house for hours on end.
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: Dream on August 14, 2013, 05:41:10 AM
One of my very good friends has a 6-year-old son with severe autism.  He's also HUGE for his age (bigger than most 9-10-year-olds).  She gets so many dirty looks from people who see him and judge him for not acting like the ten-year-old they expect him to be, who don't care that he's minimally verbal, mostly non-communicative, and SIX @#$#@ YEARS OLD.  I dare you to find even a genius-level neurotypical six-year-old who would behave like an ideal ten-year-old all the time!

Yes, that "big for age" can be a major trial, even with a neurotypical child--that would be my youngest son, who is currently 12 years old, stands in at 5'9", which would still put him at the top of the chart for boys a year older than he is.  He started out as my smallest child (5lbs, 17.5 inches at birth), but overtook his sister who was a half pound heavier and a half inch longer at birth by the time they were 4 months, and by the time that they were 2, his size was such that they looked like they were a year apart, and I've spent the better part of the last decade fending off people who want to be critical of him because they thought he was older than he actually is (or was at the time). 

Being a "top of the chart" child (or even off the chart on the high side) doesn't cause a child to develop faster in terms of maturity/speech development/coordination etc.  And it really gets old in a *hurry* when people think your child is 1-2 years older and expecting the behavior appropriate to a child who is 1-2 years older, and you're setting them straight with a "well, actually, he's only x-2" (where x = the age they think he is).  It also didn't help things that middle son was, until rather recently (he's been shooting up and is now a solid 50th percentile for height but is 1.5 inches shorter than his younger brother), a complete "bottom of the chart" child, such that his 34 month age advantage had him looking more like youngest son's twin, so people would get down on youngest son for not acting as mature as middle son ("well, actually, middle son is almost three years older than youngest son").  It has gotten a bit easier now that they're older, except for things like finding sneakers that a 12 year old likes in the size 12 men's shoe section.

I know this tale all too well. Likewise my 12 year old is 5 foot 9 but she is only in a size 10 feet so far *facepalm*. She has ASD and, although very high functioning, her behaviour sometimes causes consternation. Especially when you don't know that this beautiful, long limbed girl, who looks about 18 and is doing a commando roll under a gate, is actually an immature 12 year old with impulse issues.

Never a dull moment. Or indeed a shoe shop scoured!
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: Sophia on August 14, 2013, 10:24:10 AM
...That's pretty much the conclusion his parents have come to.  Like I said, all involved parties recognize that the No One wants to deal with a  tantrum. Even those (parents, doting godmother) who are obligated too.  ;D

Have you tried carrying him in an uncomfortable manner?

When walk-away isn't an option, I have picked up DD by the waist and let her feet and head dangle.  She gets so indignant at the position she is in, that she changes gears and wants down or to be held differently.  And, she is willing to promise good behavior.

I call that maneuver the 'potato sack.'  His mom uses it but I've always been a little reluctant because he isn't *my* child and it feels all sorts of oversteppy.  Even thought she's told me its fine.  I also have time out privileges that feel a little funky but that might because he thrashes when put in time out and gave me a black eye once!  Let's say he's a um...spirited child.  ::)

I'll try the potato sack next time, simply because I can't stand being trapped in the house for hours on end.

Also, maybe a non-food reward for good behavior?  Something that can be taken away immediately.  DD loves to push the cart.  All I do is steer and call "Whoa!" when we have to stop.  It also burns energy. 
If he runs off, he can't push the cart anymore. 
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: dawbs on August 15, 2013, 04:03:37 PM
Hm.  Maybe I'll start giving my littlest one a treat before bath time, maybe that would cut down on the caterwaulin' he does.

Bath and food are 2 of our "challenges".
Do you know that 'baby otters love pancakes'?  And Diego rescues baby otters.  And the proper way to feed a baby otter a pancake is to plop the baby otter into the bath-tub and feed it bites as it does otter tricks?

^This is not one of my parenting 'victories' as much as it was a "your clothes are walking by themselves and the doctor is going to be serious about the arguments about  things like tubes if you don't put on some ding-dangity weight" on a day when I didn't want to have to do the "hold screaming child in a tub as I dump water over her" trick (again)
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: Piratelvr1121 on August 15, 2013, 04:15:49 PM
Ahh, you've had to do that too, hmm?  I have to hold him away from the side of the tub to pour water over his head since he really does not like having water poured over his head, it seems, and I think he just doesn't like getting water in his eyes.  And that I can understand, I never did like having water running into my eyes (and my shampoo is not tear free like his is) and hated it at his age too.  Least I'm sure I did. 

Heehee...last time I rinsed out his hair I popped an M&M into his mouth right before I did it and he didn't scream cause he wanted to keep that M&M in his mouth.  >:D
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: aiki on August 15, 2013, 08:11:02 PM

Bath and food are 2 of our "challenges".
Do you know that 'baby otters love pancakes'?  And Diego rescues baby otters.  And the proper way to feed a baby otter a pancake is to plop the baby otter into the bath-tub and feed it bites as it does otter tricks?

^This is not one of my parenting 'victories' as much as it was a "your clothes are walking by themselves and the doctor is going to be serious about the arguments about  things like tubes if you don't put on some ding-dangity weight" on a day when I didn't want to have to do the "hold screaming child in a tub as I dump water over her" trick (again)

I dunno. Sounds pretty victorious to me.
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: JeanFromBNA on August 16, 2013, 05:54:40 PM
Ahh, you've had to do that too, hmm?  I have to hold him away from the side of the tub to pour water over his head since he really does not like having water poured over his head, it seems, and I think he just doesn't like getting water in his eyes.  And that I can understand, I never did like having water running into my eyes (and my shampoo is not tear free like his is) and hated it at his age too.  Least I'm sure I did. 

Heehee...last time I rinsed out his hair I popped an M&M into his mouth right before I did it and he didn't scream cause he wanted to keep that M&M in his mouth.  >:D

That is devilishly clever!
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: Piratelvr1121 on August 17, 2013, 06:11:07 AM
Ahh, you've had to do that too, hmm?  I have to hold him away from the side of the tub to pour water over his head since he really does not like having water poured over his head, it seems, and I think he just doesn't like getting water in his eyes.  And that I can understand, I never did like having water running into my eyes (and my shampoo is not tear free like his is) and hated it at his age too.  Least I'm sure I did. 

Heehee...last time I rinsed out his hair I popped an M&M into his mouth right before I did it and he didn't scream cause he wanted to keep that M&M in his mouth.  >:D

That is devilishly clever!

Heehee...what can I say? The child really loves chocolate in all forms.  :)
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: andi on August 19, 2013, 09:23:50 PM
 Just wanted to add my 2 cents as both a mom and a retail employee.  For me, it's more the way a parent is handling a tantrum situation than the actual tantrum (or other negative behavior). You can usually tell the difference between a parent doing the "not care" ignore and the "lord let the earth open and swallow me /trying everyting I can" type of ignore. My heart goes out to those parents

Most of the time my child saves his worst behavior for me at home - but occasionally I've had those "crawl under a rock" moments in public.  It happens, and for me I say "ppppbbbblllltttt" to anyone that judges me and my parenting skills on those days
Title: Re: parenting backbone sighted!
Post by: Thipu1 on August 25, 2013, 09:31:25 AM
Not quite sure where to put this but my flabber was gasted. 

Yesterday, we went out to Governor's Island to see Fete Paradiso.  This is a show of 19th and early 20th century French carnival attractions.  Naturally, there were tons of children. 

The island also has great bike paths, a miniature golf course, several small museums and picnic areas.  It's very popular, especially so since it's only open on weekends and the ferry is free.

Picture it.  A long line in the sun for a free ferry, enthusiastic kids, lots of bikes, lots of big strollers and plenty of folks with multiple picnic hampers.  One group even had a huge bag of Mylar balloons for a Birthday party.

Does it sound like a recipe for disaster?  It was exactly the opposite.  Everybody followed the instructions of the ferry crew...bikes to the left, strollers to the right and move back, please.     

Of course, there was a lot of excited chatter among the children but there were no meltdowns and no ear-piercing shrieks.  The ferry was full but the ride was actually pleasant. 

Even at the fete, the kids were surprisingly well-behaved. 

A lot of parents seem to be doing things right.