Etiquette Hell

General Etiquette => Family and Children => Topic started by: Zilla on October 01, 2013, 11:03:48 AM

Title: It's not that we don't like kids...it was your kids specifically.
Post by: Zilla on October 01, 2013, 11:03:48 AM
I take dd to a weekly class.  There is a small waiting room (10 x 10ish)  that is all tiled and 3 out of 4 walls floor to ceiling glass windows, in other words, an echoing nightmare. Most parents come and drop their kids off and quietly sit reading or on their phones.  Last week two new moms came and dropped off their oldest and stayed with their youngest. (3 kids between 4 and 6ish) and they were LOUD.  Running, giggling, happy shrieks etc.  I was about to leave and wait in my car when a mom next to me quietly ask them if they could please take their kids outside as it was a bit noisy.  About 5 other moms nodded their heads with a sympathetic look on their face.  The two new moms looked really angry and said to their kids, "Let's go outside.  These ladies think you are too loud.  Come on, let's go."  One new mom said loudly while glaring at us through the glass door as it closed shut, "People that hates kids shouldn't go to kid places!"


 ???


My oldest (tween) looked at me and giggled.  Which made all the other moms there chuckle/smile at the absurdity of her statement.  The moms outside could see us (remember those lovely ceiling to floor windows). 


I also saw them angrily talking to the instructor after class pointing at all of us.  The instructor called me today and left a message for me to call back so he could get "my" side of the story.


I will tell him exactly what happened but now I am thinking about it.  Were we rude?


ETA  There are no employees at this place other than the single instructor.  The waiting room is just us people waiting.
Title: Re: It's not that we don't like kids...it was your kids specifically.
Post by: mbbored on October 01, 2013, 11:09:14 AM
Not rude at all. Haven't these women ever heard of inside vs outside voices and inside vs outside playing?
Title: Re: It's not that we don't like kids...it was your kids specifically.
Post by: lowspark on October 01, 2013, 11:10:18 AM
No you weren't rude. I'll bring up the term "inside voices". I always used to tell my kids "this is not a playground" when we were indoors in this kind of situation.

In point of fact, that is exactly what playgrounds are for: "Running, giggling, happy shrieks etc." When kids are in an enclosed space, I don't think there's anything rude about asking them to sit quietly, or at least to use their "indoor voices".
Title: Re: It's not that we don't like kids...it was your kids specifically.
Post by: Judah on October 01, 2013, 11:10:25 AM
I see no rudeness by you, but the giggling/smiling after the moms walked outside might have *looked* bad from their perspective. I'm not saying it was, just how it probably looked to them. 

I think you were fine. Next time, though, it might be better to approach an employee to ask the moms to quiet the little kids down instead of asking them directly.
Title: Re: It's not that we don't like kids...it was your kids specifically.
Post by: siamesecat2965 on October 01, 2013, 11:13:35 AM
No, you were not wrong. Not in the least. And if they thought you were all laughing at them, well, so be it. It's not like any of you were rude, nasty, or insulting. Someone politely asked them to go outside as they were making too much noise. it's their problem if they got insulted.

When you call back, I'd keep it short and sweet, no JADEing, and just state the facts.
Title: Re: It's not that we don't like kids...it was your kids specifically.
Post by: Zilla on October 01, 2013, 11:14:12 AM
I see no rudeness by you, but the giggling/smiling after the moms walked outside might have *looked* bad from their perspective. I'm not saying it was, just how it probably looked to them. 

I think you were fine. Next time, though, it might be better to approach an employee to ask the moms to quiet the little kids down instead of asking them directly.


While I normally hate to add details afterwards, there are no other employees other than the instructor.  It's literally a two room establishment.  The waiting room and the "class" room which the instructor is in.  (we can see through the glass wall to the room but they can't hear us or us them)
Title: Re: It's not that we don't like kids...it was your kids specifically.
Post by: Judah on October 01, 2013, 11:18:02 AM
I see no rudeness by you, but the giggling/smiling after the moms walked outside might have *looked* bad from their perspective. I'm not saying it was, just how it probably looked to them. 

I think you were fine. Next time, though, it might be better to approach an employee to ask the moms to quiet the little kids down instead of asking them directly.


While I normally hate to add details afterwards, there are no other employees other than the instructor.  It's literally a two room establishment.  The waiting room and the "class" room which the instructor is in.  (we can see through the glass wall to the room but they can't hear us or us them)

In that case, strike my suggestion. You were fine. The person who asked them to go outside was fine.
Title: Re: It's not that we don't like kids...it was your kids specifically.
Post by: Luci on October 01, 2013, 11:26:30 AM
Our kids were 2 1/2 years apart, so often I had to keep the younger in the mom's area while the older took her lesson. I always had coloring for him, or books to read quietly. Sometimes I even would get a couple of other kids sitting on the floor listening politely to me read. Too bad those rude ladies weren't prepared! Their poor little ones must have been bored to tears and had no other way to release the pent up energy and emotions!

You all quiet ones did nothing wrong, as validated by the other ladies and the 'tween. It's kind of rude to laugh behind people's backs, but it was somewhat unavoidable, and I think kind of cool in this case.

(Once I had the whole waiting room enthralled - including senior citizens - while I read "Stand Back," Said the Elephant, "I'm Going to Sneeze!" One of my favorite memories!)
Title: Re: It's not that we don't like kids...it was your kids specifically.
Post by: NyaChan on October 01, 2013, 11:31:26 AM
Did anyone ask them to please keep the noise levels down before asking them to leave?  That's the only thing I can think of that would be a bit off in the situation.  That said - you - didn't do anything at all, so I wouldn't worry.
Title: Re: It's not that we don't like kids...it was your kids specifically.
Post by: mime on October 01, 2013, 11:35:20 AM
I see no rudeness by you, but the giggling/smiling after the moms walked outside might have *looked* bad from their perspective. I'm not saying it was, just how it probably looked to them. 

I'm not disagreeing with this statement, but I think it was good for the disgruntled moms to see a happy waiting room after they left. They should find it hard to hold the belief that they are 'normal' and one mean mom made them go away. They should have to see that they were in the minority and that the waiting room was full of people who were happier without their chaos.

Title: Re: It's not that we don't like kids...it was your kids specifically.
Post by: NyaChan on October 01, 2013, 11:37:04 AM
I see no rudeness by you, but the giggling/smiling after the moms walked outside might have *looked* bad from their perspective. I'm not saying it was, just how it probably looked to them. 

I'm not disagreeing with this statement, but I think it was good for the disgruntled moms to see a happy waiting room after they left. They should find it hard to hold the belief that they are 'normal' and one mean mom made them go away. They should have to see that they were in the minority and that the waiting room was full of people who were happier without their chaos.

Except the impression they likely got was more of a room full of a clique/mean girls group than, a realization that: oh all those people are grateful for the quiet.
Title: Re: It's not that we don't like kids...it was your kids specifically.
Post by: fountainof on October 01, 2013, 11:45:31 AM
I think asking the women and children to go outside rather than asking for no shrieking/loud play was a bit rude.  I think it would have been politer to allow them the chance to modify their behaviour first.  I also am not a fan of happy shrieking or yelling in in play areas but other people I know, like a close friend, think that if it is happy behaviour it is fine.  My friend got dirty looks at an ice cream shop when her daughter was excitedly shrieking about the ice cream and couldn't figure out why, she said "what did they expect me to do"?  I said "leave" and then I got "but she was just happy and not crying" so I dropped it.
Title: Re: It's not that we don't like kids...it was your kids specifically.
Post by: BeagleMommy on October 01, 2013, 11:47:23 AM
Zilla, I see nothing wrong in asking someone to keep their voices low while in a confined space.  The woman who asked wasn't yelling or telling them their kids were little monsters.  It's simple manners, if you can't keep small children quiet while inside you take them outside.

I don't think the giggling was planned.  It seemed like the teenager in the room probably got tickled by the absolutely elementary school response by the other moms.  Then once the giggling started, it infected everyone.  Probably not polite, but not done maliciously.
Title: Re: It's not that we don't like kids...it was your kids specifically.
Post by: WillyNilly on October 01, 2013, 11:52:44 AM
Like others, I think you were all fine. I'm glad the instructor is following up (I presume with everyone who was waiting) to get the complete story... and maybe to also get the hint how echo-y the waiting area is. An area rug and some drapes (even light colored ones left pulled open/pulled to the corners) would help damped the sound in a small tile and glass room.
Title: Re: It's not that we don't like kids...it was your kids specifically.
Post by: MyFamily on October 01, 2013, 12:11:15 PM
I just went through something similar last year - only there was no where else to go with the other kids while our kids who were there for a class were in the class.  Even going to a store down the street wasn't an option because there were none that were kid-friendly that we could get to, in and out of and back to the class in time.

We bought a ton of those Crayola coloring sets where the marker only works on their paper - I don't really like them but they were perfect for this situation; another mom bribed her kid with letting them play games on her i-pad (with the volume turned off) (part of the reason we ended up buying smart phones was in case we are ever in that situation again).  As a group, all of us parents realized we had to keep our kids quiet and worked at it to make it happen.  I didn't realize how grateful I should be that we were all naturally polite until this post.
Title: Re: It's not that we don't like kids...it was your kids specifically.
Post by: CocoCamm on October 01, 2013, 12:21:46 PM
I see no rudeness by you, but the giggling/smiling after the moms walked outside might have *looked* bad from their perspective. I'm not saying it was, just how it probably looked to them. 

I'm not disagreeing with this statement, but I think it was good for the disgruntled moms to see a happy waiting room after they left. They should find it hard to hold the belief that they are 'normal' and one mean mom made them go away. They should have to see that they were in the minority and that the waiting room was full of people who were happier without their chaos.

Except the impression they likely got was more of a room full of a clique/mean girls group than, a realization that: oh all those people are grateful for the quiet.

If Noisy Mom immediately jumps to the conclusion that the other moms are mean that says a lot more about her then anyone else.
Title: Re: It's not that we don't like kids...it was your kids specifically.
Post by: Zizi-K on October 01, 2013, 12:56:10 PM
I'm surprised the instructor agreed to get involved. What does he plan to do once he has "your side of the story"? A better response from him to the angry moms would have been, "The waiting room is for everyone, and I hope that you call can work things out and get along." It sounds like the acoustics in that room are a bit of a nightmare, so perhaps a carpet or wall-hanging would also help.
Title: Re: It's not that we don't like kids...it was your kids specifically.
Post by: sevenday on October 01, 2013, 01:03:14 PM
My guess is the instructor needs to find out what exactly happened.  If he can't hear what was going on and the angry mother said "my children were behaving fine and THOSE PEOPLE told us to leave!" - yeah, I'd find out.  When he calls, simply tell the truth about what happened, and let the chips fall where they may.  I agree with other posters that Angry Mom was looking for an insult anywhere she could find it, and isn't conscious enough about others to care about things like social boundaries - i.e. keeping your children quiet and occupied in a communal space.   

There should not NEED to be signs telling people to keep quiet and to themselves - honestly!  I do get that kids can get out of control and not think about how loud they're being when left to their own devices - but that's why they should be supervised, to ensure that they DON'T get out of control.
Title: Re: It's not that we don't like kids...it was your kids specifically.
Post by: Zilla on October 01, 2013, 01:19:48 PM
I spoke to him just now and just pretty much read my OP to him.  He said he had a feeling it was like that but wanted to confirm.  He thanked me and that was that.  I was tempted to ask what did the other parents said but I didn't want to be any further in the drama. 


I myself was going to just go wait in the car or the benches outside in the courtyard and wouldn't have asked them to be quiet or leave.  But I am not confrontational.  So when I heard the message this morning, it got me thinking once again if it was a rude encounter or what because I did feel it was slightly off to ask them to leave albeit nicely or not.  But in hindsight, I could see it was more of a suggestion/request.
Title: Re: It's not that we don't like kids...it was your kids specifically.
Post by: CocoCamm on October 01, 2013, 03:01:37 PM
I spoke to him just now and just pretty much read my OP to him.  He said he had a feeling it was like that but wanted to confirm.  He thanked me and that was that.  I was tempted to ask what did the other parents said but I didn't want to be any further in the drama. 


I myself was going to just go wait in the car or the benches outside in the courtyard and wouldn't have asked them to be quiet or leave.  But I am not confrontational.  So when I heard the message this morning, it got me thinking once again if it was a rude encounter or what because I did feel it was slightly off to ask them to leave albeit nicely or not.  But in hindsight, I could see it was more of a suggestion/request.

I've been tossing this situation around in my head and after consideration I'm of the mindset that I think perhaps it was more polite to ask Noisy Mom to take the noise outside rather then asking her to keep her kids quiet. The reason being that asking her to quiet the kids means asking her to change her parenting style (allowing kids to be noisy in a public place) by asking her to remove the kids she isn't being asked to change her parenting style just to do it in a different environment. Not to mention that the noise isn't really the problem it's where the noise is taking place. Plenty of places are just fine for kids to be noisy and rambunctious and outside is one of them.

I think by asking Noisy Mom to take the kids outside Quiet Mom was acknowledging that the kids had the right to be rambunctious somewhere and at the same time wasn't bossy by telling Noisy Mom how she should parent.
Title: Re: It's not that we don't like kids...it was your kids specifically.
Post by: *inviteseller on October 01, 2013, 04:59:08 PM
Just because this place was an office where kids go for lessons doesn't make it ok for kids to act like screaming maniacs.  My pediatricians office had to put up signs asking parents to keep their children from running and climbing.  At the  Children's hospital my DD's specialists are at, there is a floor of just all the specialists offices.  It is a great welcoming place with many different hands on activities, cool fish tanks, ect, but it is still a dr's office and I have, more than once, seen an employee ask parents to please stop their child from running, screaming, climbing.  I also saw a parent take offense to this and SHOUT "This is a Children's place and they should be allowed to act like chiiiiiiiildreeeeeeeeennnnnnnn!!"  The nurse said it is a hospital and walked away.  I bet those mom's in the OP's story think everyone, just everyone is a child hater because they just don't understand how special their children are and how they neeeed to express themselves !
Title: Re: It's not that we don't like kids...it was your kids specifically.
Post by: Mikayla on October 05, 2013, 12:50:34 PM


I've been tossing this situation around in my head and after consideration I'm of the mindset that I think perhaps it was more polite to ask Noisy Mom to take the noise outside rather then asking her to keep her kids quiet. The reason being that asking her to quiet the kids means asking her to change her parenting style (allowing kids to be noisy in a public place) by asking her to remove the kids she isn't being asked to change her parenting style just to do it in a different environment. Not to mention that the noise isn't really the problem it's where the noise is taking place. Plenty of places are just fine for kids to be noisy and rambunctious and outside is one of them.

I think by asking Noisy Mom to take the kids outside Quiet Mom was acknowledging that the kids had the right to be rambunctious somewhere and at the same time wasn't bossy by telling Noisy Mom how she should parent.

This is really well said and I agree.  I also think Zilla is not responsible for the thought process of parents when they see the reaction in the waiting room.  People either react to social cues or they don't, and when they don't, it's always best to gently ask the parents to change, not the kids.
Title: Re: It's not that we don't like kids...it was your kids specifically.
Post by: EllenS on October 05, 2013, 05:03:17 PM
I would guess the instructor got involved because the Noisy People pulled - or threatened to pull - their child out of the class.  If he is losing income because new families don't feel welcome, he is naturally going to be concerned.

However, no businessperson wants to deal with SS clients. I think he did the right thing by checking with his known clients to see if the complainer was being reasonable or not.
Title: Re: It's not that we don't like kids...it was your kids specifically.
Post by: delabela on October 05, 2013, 06:06:53 PM
I have a younger child who, shall we say, approaches life with a certain exuberance.  I would be mortified if I were the parents asked to take my children outside, but on the other hand, we work really hard on where it is and is not appropriate to be loud.  So I have a hard time with this.  I don't think you're necessarily entitled to quiet time in a public place where children are, but also screaming and craziness is not ok.  I guess I feel kind of bad for the new parents, as I can see where it probably felt like being ganged up on, but I also thing their reaction of accusing the room of being child-haters was not cool.  So maybe everyone could have done a little better? 

Man, I'm sounding super wishy-washy on this one! 
Title: Re: It's not that we don't like kids...it was your kids specifically.
Post by: bopper on October 07, 2013, 08:01:43 AM
I might have said to the kids "Hey guys, when you yell in here it really hurts my ears.  Can you be quieter? Thanks, buds!"
Title: Re: It's not that we don't like kids...it was your kids specifically.
Post by: Hmmmmm on October 07, 2013, 09:12:19 AM
If I'm counting this up correctly, there were 8 moms, a tween, and 3 little kids in a 10x10 space. That's a lot of people for a such small space.

I don't think anyone did anything wrong accept the moms complaining. I guess the person who raised the issue could have asked they request the kids be quieter instead of taking them outside.
Title: Re: It's not that we don't like kids...it was your kids specifically.
Post by: oogyda on October 07, 2013, 12:41:48 PM
I have a younger child who, shall we say, approaches life with a certain exuberance.  I would be mortified if I were the parents asked to take my children outside, but on the other hand, we work really hard on where it is and is not appropriate to be loud.  So I have a hard time with this.  I don't think you're necessarily entitled to quiet time in a public place where children are, but also screaming and craziness is not ok.  I guess I feel kind of bad for the new parents, as I can see where it probably felt like being ganged up on, but I also thing their reaction of accusing the room of being child-haters was not cool.  So maybe everyone could have done a little better? 

Man, I'm sounding super wishy-washy on this one!

I think the difference would be that others could see that you were working "really hard on where it is and is not appropriate to be loud".  Personally, I give a little more leeway to someone who is trying to quiet unruly or loud children appropriately than to those who allow it without correction or direction.
Title: Re: It's not that we don't like kids...it was your kids specifically.
Post by: Zilla on October 07, 2013, 02:29:50 PM



As for a somewhat of an update, the other two moms just drops off their kids that go to the class and leaves.  The instructor never said another word about it and neither will I.

Title: Re: It's not that we don't like kids...it was your kids specifically.
Post by: delabela on October 07, 2013, 09:56:47 PM
I have a younger child who, shall we say, approaches life with a certain exuberance.  I would be mortified if I were the parents asked to take my children outside, but on the other hand, we work really hard on where it is and is not appropriate to be loud.  So I have a hard time with this.  I don't think you're necessarily entitled to quiet time in a public place where children are, but also screaming and craziness is not ok.  I guess I feel kind of bad for the new parents, as I can see where it probably felt like being ganged up on, but I also thing their reaction of accusing the room of being child-haters was not cool.  So maybe everyone could have done a little better? 

Man, I'm sounding super wishy-washy on this one!

I think the difference would be that others could see that you were working "really hard on where it is and is not appropriate to be loud".  Personally, I give a little more leeway to someone who is trying to quiet unruly or loud children appropriately than to those who allow it without correction or direction.

Fair point.
Title: Re: It's not that we don't like kids...it was your kids specifically.
Post by: Pigeon on October 08, 2013, 07:32:00 AM
I see no rudeness by you, but the giggling/smiling after the moms walked outside might have *looked* bad from their perspective. I'm not saying it was, just how it probably looked to them. 

I'm not disagreeing with this statement, but I think it was good for the disgruntled moms to see a happy waiting room after they left. They should find it hard to hold the belief that they are 'normal' and one mean mom made them go away. They should have to see that they were in the minority and that the waiting room was full of people who were happier without their chaos.

Except the impression they likely got was more of a room full of a clique/mean girls group than, a realization that: oh all those people are grateful for the quiet.

If Noisy Mom immediately jumps to the conclusion that the other moms are mean that says a lot more about her then anyone else.

I agree.  I also think that had Noisy Mom not subjected everyone to a flounce, it's likely there would have been no laughter/smiles.  Had she just acknowledged that the noise level was inappropriate and left, I'm betting everyone would have just gone on with their business.  Her choice to make a mini-scene led to the incredulous laughter.
Title: Re: It's not that we don't like kids...it was your kids specifically.
Post by: Zilla on October 08, 2013, 08:04:32 AM
I see no rudeness by you, but the giggling/smiling after the moms walked outside might have *looked* bad from their perspective. I'm not saying it was, just how it probably looked to them. 

I'm not disagreeing with this statement, but I think it was good for the disgruntled moms to see a happy waiting room after they left. They should find it hard to hold the belief that they are 'normal' and one mean mom made them go away. They should have to see that they were in the minority and that the waiting room was full of people who were happier without their chaos.

Except the impression they likely got was more of a room full of a clique/mean girls group than, a realization that: oh all those people are grateful for the quiet.

If Noisy Mom immediately jumps to the conclusion that the other moms are mean that says a lot more about her then anyone else.

I agree.  I also think that had Noisy Mom not subjected everyone to a flounce, it's likely there would have been no laughter/smiles.  Had she just acknowledged that the noise level was inappropriate and left, I'm betting everyone would have just gone on with their business.  Her choice to make a mini-scene led to the incredulous laughter.


It was the comment she made about us hating kids when we are clearly mothers waiting for their "hated" kids.  ::)   Plus dd hadn't intended to make the room laugh, she was just looking at me and giggling like, was that for real, seriously?
Title: Re: It's not that we don't like kids...it was your kids specifically.
Post by: EllenS on October 08, 2013, 01:49:24 PM
I see no rudeness by you, but the giggling/smiling after the moms walked outside might have *looked* bad from their perspective. I'm not saying it was, just how it probably looked to them. 

I'm not disagreeing with this statement, but I think it was good for the disgruntled moms to see a happy waiting room after they left. They should find it hard to hold the belief that they are 'normal' and one mean mom made them go away. They should have to see that they were in the minority and that the waiting room was full of people who were happier without their chaos.

Except the impression they likely got was more of a room full of a clique/mean girls group than, a realization that: oh all those people are grateful for the quiet.

If Noisy Mom immediately jumps to the conclusion that the other moms are mean that says a lot more about her then anyone else.

I agree.  I also think that had Noisy Mom not subjected everyone to a flounce, it's likely there would have been no laughter/smiles.  Had she just acknowledged that the noise level was inappropriate and left, I'm betting everyone would have just gone on with their business.  Her choice to make a mini-scene led to the incredulous laughter.

Exactly.  Children acquire situational awareness at different rates.  Just as there is a big difference between someone who is obviously teaching their child manners, vs. one who lets them run all over; there is a big difference between an attitude of "oops, sorry I misread the situation, didn't mean to disturb others" vs. "you people are just being mean".
Title: Re: It's not that we don't like kids...it was your kids specifically.
Post by: Sophia on October 08, 2013, 02:02:54 PM
I bet that mother meets lots of child-haters. 

I remember that the first clue we had that maybe Grandpa shouldn't drive anymore was when he started to complain about how rude the drivers in our area were because "They were always honking".  I remember my dad and I looked at each other because no one ever honked at us.