Etiquette Hell

General Etiquette => Life...in general => Topic started by: Victim Of Fate on October 13, 2013, 03:26:49 PM

Title: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: Victim Of Fate on October 13, 2013, 03:26:49 PM
Okay, so this is something that happened recently on a group holiday, and I was wondering who you think is in the right, because I can see it from both points of view...

Alice, Bob, Charlie and Debra are four friends on a group holiday. They have talked early in the week about going on an excursion on Wednesday, but have made no firm plans.

Alice is the first to get up on Wednesday morning. Because no firm plans have been made, Alice throws on some casual clothes and spends the early morning lazing around. One by one, the other members of the party wake up and come downstairs. Alice asks Bob what the plans are, and he tells her that they will probably head out in a couple of hours.

Alice still needs to get ready - she doesn't tell anybody this, and the other three reasonably assume that she is ready to go, as she is up and dressed. Alice notices the other three get ready (e.g. shower, get changed, etc.).

After an hour and a half, Bob, Charlie and Debra are all dressed and ready to go. Charlie suggests that the group leaves on their excursion. Alice announces that she still needs to get ready, and will need another half hour. Her three friends are annoyed, as they will now be losing a half hour at the place they were planning to visit.

Are the other three right to be annoyed with Alice? Should she have adjusted her pace after seeing that everyone else was going to be ready early, or at the very least mentioned that she needed to get ready? Or should the others have explicitly told her if the plans were changing?
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: newbiePA on October 13, 2013, 03:43:26 PM
Well, first, how did the pans change? She was told the group would probably leave in 2 hours, then, she was given 30 minutes notice for when the group was leaving.  It doesn't really sound like go with the flow to me, it sounds like a pretty firm plan.  Was Alice waiting for an engraved invitation? Could she not ask if the plans were still to leave in 2 hours?  These were friend.  Like so many threads here, the answer is TALK!
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: NyaChan on October 13, 2013, 03:44:52 PM
I think everyone in the group had a bit of responsibility for not communicating better.  If the three people wanted to leave as soon as they were ready rather than in two hours from when they spoke, they should have said so.  Alice also gets docked points because I think when she saw that everyone was getting ready, she probably just should have done it as well or indicated that she was planning on getting ready immediately before leaving at the agreed up on time.  If I were her and just missed all the signals to get ready earlier, I would have skipped the redressing and joined the group as is, as long as it wouldn't cause me great discomfort.
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: LadyL on October 13, 2013, 03:45:57 PM
I think this is mostly a communication failure but I understand the group's frustration with Alice. LordL is the Alice in my life  >:D. We have had many a talk (argument) about why, if he is up at 7, 8 or 9 AM, he has not gotten dressed or showed by 10 or 11 when I wake up. Often he has personal errands he has to run (dry cleaning drop off, etc.) but he waits till I am up to shower and get dressed. It creates an unnecessary delay. Drives me bonkers. But he, like ALice, isn't being rude per se - inconsiderate, a bit dense, sure but the group/I also have an obligation to say "I want to leave the house within an hour of when I wake up."
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: Victim Of Fate on October 13, 2013, 03:50:16 PM
Well, first, how did the pans change? She was told the group would probably leave in 2 hours, then, she was given 30 minutes notice for when the group was leaving.  It doesn't really sound like go with the flow to me, it sounds like a pretty firm plan.  Was Alice waiting for an engraved invitation? Could she not ask if the plans were still to leave in 2 hours?  These were friend.  Like so many threads here, the answer is TALK!

Well, no, she wasn't given 30 minutes notice. When the rest of the group was ready, they - assuming that she was ready - changed their initial plan. And I agree that communication between them would have helped, but were the majority in the right, given that they had already stated a start time, which Alice met.
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: Hmmmmm on October 13, 2013, 04:22:14 PM
I think Alice took the couple of hours literally. If it was 10 when Bob said head out in a couple of hours, Alice thinks she has a good 2 hours and doesn't need to be ready till noon. But when she saw everyone else getting dressed it would have been wise to confirm they were still planning to leave at noon and not earlier.

But Bon should have been clearer with a couple of hours or as soon as everyone gets ready.
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: YummyMummy66 on October 13, 2013, 04:45:23 PM
Why did it take Alice an hour and a half to wait to say she had to get ready to go?  Why wasn't she getting ready in the meantime also?

When Alice asked what the plans were, she was told they would be leaving in a couple of hours. She should have spoken up then and said, "How long so that I have time to get ready?".

Then, when she knew everyone was getting ready, she still sat around and did nothing?  I am assuming Alice was a partner to one of the men.  It does not usually take any man that long to get ready.  Why wasn't she getting ready also?  Even if all four shared a room and bathroom, there would still be time to get ready or say something about getting ready.

I think Alice is at fault because she had ample time to say, "Hey, let's discuss firm plans as to what is going on because I need to get ready and need to know by when?"
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: peaches on October 13, 2013, 04:51:28 PM
It could be that Alice wasn't getting ready during the hour and a half that elapsed because (1) she was told they would leave in about 2 hours, so no hurry or (2) she needed access to a bathroom (to shower or put on makeup) and there wasn't one available.

If being on time was crucial, and the group really needed to leave in an hour and a half (rather than the 2 hours originally suggested)  someone should have said so, and made sure that everyone had access to the facilities they needed to get ready.

In fact, if timeliness was important, a discussion the night before was called for IMO.

Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: newbiePA on October 13, 2013, 04:52:18 PM


Well, no, she wasn't given 30 minutes notice. When the rest of the group was ready, they - assuming that she was ready - changed their initial plan. And I agree that communication between them would have helped, but were the majority in the right, given that they had already stated a start time, which Alice met.

oops, yeah, I saw that after I posted.  Sorry.  But most of my point still stands.  She had 90 minutes to get ready, more if you consider before everyone else got up.  I still think Alice is mostly in the wrong.
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: camlan on October 13, 2013, 04:54:12 PM
I think Alice is a bit at fault here. Although the other share some blame for not communicating better.

But Alice is told the group will leave in a couple of hours. Alice knows she needs 1/2 hour to get ready. The rest of the group takes an hour and a half to get ready. Which means that Alice should have started getting ready without prompting at that point. Because based on the info she has--that the group will leave in two hours from the time she asked--she has just enough time to get ready.

Instead, she waited until someone said, "Let's leave now," to announce that she'd need another 1/2 hour to get ready.
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: AnnaJ on October 13, 2013, 04:54:23 PM
Why did it take Alice an hour and a half to wait to say she had to get ready to go?  Why wasn't she getting ready in the meantime also?

When Alice asked what the plans were, she was told they would be leaving in a couple of hours. She should have spoken up then and said, "How long so that I have time to get ready?".

Then, when she knew everyone was getting ready, she still sat around and did nothing?  I am assuming Alice was a partner to one of the men.  It does not usually take any man that long to get ready.  Why wasn't she getting ready also?  Even if all four shared a room and bathroom, there would still be time to get ready or say something about getting ready.

I think Alice is at fault because she had ample time to say, "Hey, let's discuss firm plans as to what is going on because I need to get ready and need to know by when?"

To me 'a couple of hours' is two hours, so I can see why Alice thought everyone was planning on leaving in two hours, not an hour and a half.  It sounds like she knew it would take her a half and hour to get ready, and just budgeted that half an hour at the end of the two hours.

I agree it was a miscommunication problem, and Alice should probably have taken a cue from her friends.  On the other hand, I've traveled with friends and stayed in places where it's difficult for everyone to get dressed and ready at the same time - not enough bathrooms, etc.; could Alice have thought she was staying out the way, OP?
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: Victim Of Fate on October 13, 2013, 05:05:36 PM
Why did it take Alice an hour and a half to wait to say she had to get ready to go?  Why wasn't she getting ready in the meantime also?

Well, I think in this case Alice knew it would take her half an hour to get ready, so when as Hmmmmm noted, she was told that the group would be leaving two hours from 10am, she assumed that she could get ready for a noon leaving time.

Quote
When Alice asked what the plans were, she was told they would be leaving in a couple of hours. She should have spoken up then and said, "How long so that I have time to get ready?".

But having been told two hours, why would Alice have questioned this at the time?

Quote
Then, when she knew everyone was getting ready, she still sat around and did nothing?  I am assuming Alice was a partner to one of the men.  It does not usually take any man that long to get ready.  Why wasn't she getting ready also?  Even if all four shared a room and bathroom, there would still be time to get ready or say something about getting ready.

I think Alice is at fault because she had ample time to say, "Hey, let's discuss firm plans as to what is going on because I need to get ready and need to know by when?"

There were actually slightly more than four of us, and Alice was not in a couple with any of the other people there (there was only one couple). There was no issue with competition for bathrooms etc. Alice simply thought that the plan must have been to leave at noon (having been told at 10am that the plan was to leave in two hours), whereas for everyone else, the "two hours" meant "as soon as everyone is ready". I must admit, I thought that we were aiming to leave at noon, I just happened to be ready before then because of when my turn to use the bathroom came up.
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: WillyNilly on October 13, 2013, 05:44:40 PM
To me "a couple of hours" in the casual context it was used does not mean a hard and fast "two" it means "two hours give or take" so 90 minutes absolutely fits in with what she was told. If the plan was a hard fixed "noon" that would have been said, the very nature of the vague answer says to me it was a soft definition not a hard fixed number. So I think Alice was inconsiderate and a bit rude to hold her friends up. They clearly communicated via their actions their intent to leave as they all were ready about the same time other then her.
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: Victim Of Fate on October 13, 2013, 05:52:18 PM
To me "a couple of hours" in the casual context it was used does not mean a hard and fast "two" it means "two hours give or take" so 90 minutes absolutely fits in with what she was told. If the plan was a hard fixed "noon" that would have been said, the very nature of the vague answer says to me it was a soft definition not a hard fixed number. So I think Alice was inconsiderate and a bit rude to hold her friends up. They clearly communicated via their actions their intent to leave as they all were ready about the same time other then her.

See, that's the interesting thing about the situation. For me, and for Alice, a "couple of hours" means two hours. But it appears that for a lot of people, it just means an approximate chunk of time. I think some people work more to a schedule than others.
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: Lynn2000 on October 13, 2013, 06:10:54 PM
I agree these situations can be very frustrating, but more direct questions and answers would have solved the whole thing. First, as someone else said, if these plans were firm they should've been discussed the night before--"Let's go to X tomorrow, we'll leave at noon." Then, those plans should have been stuck to--if, by chance, everyone but one person were ready to leave before noon, you could certainly pop in to their room and see if they're ready, too, but if they aren't, no one should be getting upset, because the plan was to leave at noon, not earlier.

So, my first instinct is to defend Alice. I think it's reasonable to assume "a couple of hours" from 10am is noon--maybe not exactly high noon, "a couple of hours" is a smidge vague, but I don't think anyone should call her "late" at 11:30.

There can be a lot of nuances to these things, though. Why didn't Alice ever confirm the plans--"We're still on track to leave at noon, right?" Is she sitting there watching everyone else turn up with their outside clothes, and it never occurred to her that she might want to get a move on herself? If you know you take 30min to get ready, and you're to be ready by noon, it seems a bit risky to not begin until 11:30, if you could have begun earlier--there's no time built in for anything to go wrong or to account for slight differences in clocks. In other words she was already risking being late according to the deadline she herself understood, which I think is a bit rude when you have plans with a group.

And then again, why didn't anyone say to Alice, around 11 maybe, "Oh, Debra and I were talking, and we thought we might leave a bit before noon, if everyone's ready. When do you think you'll be done?" Everyone else seemed to realize the timeline had moved up--either it was discussed but Alice was left out, which isn't fair, or it wasn't discussed but was more coincidental, in which case they have no call to mad at her.

Actually, to me this is one of those unsolvable problems that come up when trying to herd a group of people in the same direction, and why I try to avoid doing things like this with groups at all. The only thing I've found that works is trying to cover my own tail by explicitly asking people when we're leaving, where we're going, etc., even if everyone else thinks it ought to be self-evident. And then whatever I've been told, I try to make sure I'm ready well before then anyway.
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: kherbert05 on October 13, 2013, 06:19:29 PM
There are a couple of things that my family does that would have done that make communication easier.


1. Night before ask who is going and set a window for leaving. (Kids and tweens/teens who have not proven themselves responsible go with parents unless an adult invites them to stay with them. Invite goes to the parent who says no or lets ask kid)


2. Once people are moving and getting ready, someone asks who all needs to get ready to make sure everyone is getting a turn.
 
Had to explain to my cousin's girlfriend why family was insisting I got to shower last. The topical meds for my skin are best if applied to damp skin. If I go last then the anti-itching stuff lasts further into the day. (Her family apparently is like the parents in the Ridiculous things your parents criticize you about)
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: Psychopoesie on October 13, 2013, 06:26:40 PM
I would have taken a couple of hours to mean 2 hours - so leaving at noon.

If the friends meant leave once we're all ready, that's a different thing and they should have said so.

If it was such an approximate thing and there was no real time pressure other than the others all want to go, don't think it would kill the friends to wait half an hour for Alice.

People getting changed isn't a signal that they'll automatically want to leave as soon as they're done. It's a signal that people are getting ready within the set timeframe.

It seems unreasonable to be annoyed with Alice if she was ready by the end of the two hours, as communicated by Bob.

Lesson for the friends is agree an exact leaving time if it's that important and tell everyone in the group. Better still, do it the night before, as other posters have suggested. It would also have the benefit that an early riser like Alice could decide to do something else first - like go for a walk - instead of perhaps being stuck waiting for everyone else to get up.
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: Thipu1 on October 13, 2013, 06:53:26 PM
There are a couple of things that my family does that would have done that make communication easier.


1. Night before ask who is going and set a window for leaving. (Kids and tweens/teens who have not proven themselves responsible go with parents unless an adult invites them to stay with them. Invite goes to the parent who says no or lets ask kid)


2. Once people are moving and getting ready, someone asks who all needs to get ready to make sure everyone is getting a turn.
 
Had to explain to my cousin's girlfriend why family was insisting I got to shower last. The topical meds for my skin are best if applied to damp skin. If I go last then the anti-itching stuff lasts further into the day. (Her family apparently is like the parents in the Ridiculous things your parents criticize you about)

Amen to this. Holidays don't need to be taken in lockstep but  tentative  plans for Wednesday ought to be firmed up on Tuesday afternoon or evening so everybody knows the ideal time for the excursion to begin and alarms should be set to allow time for everyone to get ready. 

Say the projected trip is to the cryptozoology park and the highlight of the visit will be the Yeti feeding at 2 PM.  A set time to leave the house must be established so that this amazing event may be properly observed. Those who wish to attend must be ready by a certain time. 

In the case as originally presented, it seems that Alice didn't get the memo.       
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: misha412 on October 13, 2013, 07:09:03 PM
Okay, so this is something that happened recently on a group holiday, and I was wondering who you think is in the right, because I can see it from both points of view...

Alice, Bob, Charlie and Debra are four friends on a group holiday. They have talked early in the week about going on an excursion on Wednesday, but have made no firm plans.

Alice is the first to get up on Wednesday morning. Because no firm plans have been made, Alice throws on some casual clothes and spends the early morning lazing around. One by one, the other members of the party wake up and come downstairs. Alice asks Bob what the plans are, and he tells her that they will probably head out in a couple of hours.

Alice still needs to get ready - she doesn't tell anybody this, and the other three reasonably assume that she is ready to go, as she is up and dressed. Alice notices the other three get ready (e.g. shower, get changed, etc.).

After an hour and a half, Bob, Charlie and Debra are all dressed and ready to go. Charlie suggests that the group leaves on their excursion. Alice announces that she still needs to get ready, and will need another half hour. Her three friends are annoyed, as they will now be losing a half hour at the place they were planning to visit.

Are the other three right to be annoyed with Alice? Should she have adjusted her pace after seeing that everyone else was going to be ready early, or at the very least mentioned that she needed to get ready? Or should the others have explicitly told her if the plans were changing?

This is actually where I think there is a bit of a disconnect. Alice is dressed to the point the others think she is ready. She is making no other moves to go change clothing, shower, put on makeup, etc. When the other three are ready, assuming she is also ready, one of them says "let's go". Then, Alice speaks up and says "No, i'm not ready."

I realize it is not rude for Alice to wait until the last 1/2 hour to get ready. But, I can understand the other three being annoyed at waiting for someone who made NO moves to get ready until after everyone else was ready, gathered in the common areas, and someone suggests they leave a bit early.

Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: blarg314 on October 13, 2013, 07:23:14 PM

By the sounds of it, Alice waited around a couple of hours while she was awake and the others were still sleeping. Then another hour and a half while they slooowly get ready. In those circumstances, I'd probably would assume that no-one was in a hurry to leave, and an extra half hour wasn't that big a deal, compared to the four or so hours I'd been hanging around waiting for the others.

To be honest, in those circumstances I'd probably have gotten ready, left a note saying what time I'd be back, and headed out on my own for a few hours, rather than spending the morning waiting around.

I think the only problem here is the expectation that people be mind readers. The other three assumed that Alice was ready to leave at a moment's notice, and assumed that she knew that "a couple of hours" meant "the moment the rest of us are ready to go".  It wasn't a specific plans issue, because nobody made specific plans (in a couple of hours is still pretty nebulous).

With a group, I find that you need to make very specific plans, stated out loud, with everyone's agreement.  If everyone had agreed that they'd leave at 10:30, then Alice would have been at fault. Better yet - they could have decided the night before that they'd head out at 10:30, and made sure to set alarms if needed so that everyone would be ready to go at that time. But then the rest of the group would have also been bound to a specific time, rather than when they felt like getting up, and happened to get ready.

Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: CakeEater on October 13, 2013, 11:05:57 PM
I'm surprised that people would take 'a couple of hours' to mean in exactly two hours. I love a schedule, but that kind of wording would mean to me: We won't rush to get ready, but that's the direction that we're all heading, and around the time we're all ready, we'll get going. We expect that to be longer than the half hour it would take us all to get ready individually.

I really think Alice should have started to get ready, when everyone else was obviously preparing to leave.
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: sammycat on October 13, 2013, 11:21:03 PM
I'm surprised that people would take 'a couple of hours' to mean in exactly two hours. I love a schedule, but that kind of wording would mean to me: We won't rush to get ready, but that's the direction that we're all heading, and around the time we're all ready, we'll get going. We expect that to be longer than the half hour it would take us all to get ready individually.

I really think Alice should have started to get ready, when everyone else was obviously preparing to leave.

I agree. I think Alice is totally in the wrong here.
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: Yvaine on October 13, 2013, 11:31:58 PM
I'm surprised that people would take 'a couple of hours' to mean in exactly two hours.

My instinct would be that they meant at least two hours and maybe longer. At the very least it means plural hours, not 1.5, and maybe it's just that I know a lot of lateniks, but "a couple of hours" usually means "eh, maybe 2 hours and maybe three and a half" when it comes from a lot of my acquaintances. The promptness-sticklers tend to be more specific, i.e. "We want to get on the road at 6."
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: Leafy on October 14, 2013, 12:07:16 AM
I'm surprised that people would take 'a couple of hours' to mean in exactly two hours. I love a schedule, but that kind of wording would mean to me: We won't rush to get ready, but that's the direction that we're all heading, and around the time we're all ready, we'll get going. We expect that to be longer than the half hour it would take us all to get ready individually.

I really think Alice should have started to get ready, when everyone else was obviously preparing to leave.

I agree with this. If someone said to me "a couple of hours" I would never take it to mean "exactly two hours". If they meant exactly two, I would expect them to say two. Also, in the context of a holiday where there are a number of people needing to get ready I would take it as "about two hours because that might be how much time is needed for everyone to be ready".

I think it would have been good for Alice to have started to get ready to go earlier - especially considering she has had the time that she was up before everyone, as well as the last 90 minutes that they were getting ready. So presumably she has had about three hours to get ready but is still not ready. Yeah, that would annoy me.
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: Raintree on October 14, 2013, 12:43:15 AM
I'm surprised that people would take 'a couple of hours' to mean in exactly two hours. I love a schedule, but that kind of wording would mean to me: We won't rush to get ready, but that's the direction that we're all heading, and around the time we're all ready, we'll get going. We expect that to be longer than the half hour it would take us all to get ready individually.

I really think Alice should have started to get ready, when everyone else was obviously preparing to leave.

That is what I think too. I'd have interpreted it to mean, "No huge rush, but we'll go when everyone's ready." And seeing everyone else get ready would have been my cue to start getting myself together too.
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: Arila on October 14, 2013, 01:59:02 AM
Ugh, I can't stand  people who want everyone ELSE to be ready and waiting before they will lift a finger to get moving themselves. I mean, does it really hurt you to be sitting in front of the TV dressed to go instead of sitting in front of the TV until I'm ready and THEN getting dressed?  ::)

I vote Alice in the wrong.  If you're going to have "flexible" plans, you need to make sure you're ready to jump when the group jumps, because 4 people not all pulling together makes for a lot of drag and down time in the middle of an active vacation.
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: staceym on October 14, 2013, 05:59:22 AM
I'm surprised that people would take 'a couple of hours' to mean in exactly two hours. I love a schedule, but that kind of wording would mean to me: We won't rush to get ready, but that's the direction that we're all heading, and around the time we're all ready, we'll get going. We expect that to be longer than the half hour it would take us all to get ready individually.

I really think Alice should have started to get ready, when everyone else was obviously preparing to leave.

I'm going to agree with this...Alice might have thought a couple hours is a couple of hours; but once people started getting showered and dressed I (being Alice) would have asked "oh, is everyone getting ready, are going to be going soon"??? and then started to get ready myself
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: Victim Of Fate on October 14, 2013, 06:02:16 AM
A few of points of context to add:

1) Making plans the night before: There had been attempts to do this, and I think Alice had been particularly keen to make firm plans, but everyone else had been quite non-committal. This was probably the same that morning as well:

Alice: What time do we want to head off?
Bob: Eh, maybe in a couple of hours.

2) Alice was just watching TV. In fact, what happened was that she was watching reruns of something, and I think the show in question finished at 11:30am. So everyone else was ready by between 11am and 11:30am, as people finished getting ready they gathered on the sofa and watched with her. We all just assumed that Alice was ready, so when the show finished, we said "shall we head off now then?". That's when Alice said that she needed to get ready.

3) Alice actually only took about 15 minutes to get ready, so she actually only cost us 15 minutes' delay.

What caused a little bit of friction was the reaction to Alice telling us that she needed to get ready. Most people in the group felt that Alice should have been getting ready at the same time as everyone else. That way, everyone would have been ready ahead of schedule and we could have got another half hour at the place we were visiting.

Alice's argument was that she was told a time-frame in which to get ready, and she met that time-frame. I think from her point of view, nobody wanted to commit to a time, and when they did it was long enough that she thought she had time to laze around for a bit (we were on holiday). From her point of view, we were changing plans with no warning.

I think if we'd known Alice was not ready (i.e. if she'd been wearing clothes that were obviously not meant for outside the house), we might have said "aren't you going to get ready?", to which she would have said "I thought we weren't leaving till 12?", and the whole thing would have been sorted.

But was it our responsibility to check whether Alice was ready rather than assuming, or was it her responsibility to tell us that she wasn't, given that it really looked like she was?
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: CakeEater on October 14, 2013, 06:13:41 AM
I don't think you were changing plans with no warning. The 'warning' was the non-verbal cues going on around her: the fact that everyone was getting ready to leave. Showering, dressing, packing snacks and water?

It's risky asking 'are you going to get ready?' because she might then be offended that you didn't think her clothes were good enough. Perhaps, with hindsight, someone could have said 'are you ready to go?' or 'Alice, do you still need the shower?' when the last person was finished, or something which might have given her a more verbal cue.

But honestly, with a vague timeframe, she can't say that she met the time frame, because there really wasn't one. If her host said dinner would be ready at 7, but it was ready early and everyone was sitting around the table, would she stay in the loungeroom until the dot of 7?



Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: Another Sarah on October 14, 2013, 06:36:28 AM
I think both sides are as bad as each other here, actually.

If I meant two hours, I would say two hours. I don't think Alice should have assumed she had exactly 2 hours to get ready, a "couple" of hours implies to me that the timeframe is not firm and it's a "whenever we're ready" type situation.

On the other hand - a "couple" of hours means that there is no rush. Alice acted accordingly by not rushing. The group had no right to be annoyed with her for not being ready at the same time as everyone else because they implied they weren't in a hurry.

I do think it was pretty gormless of her to get up before everyone else and not get ready before sitting down, particularly when everyone else started doing it, but I don't think she can be faulted for relaxing on holiday.
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: secretrebel on October 14, 2013, 06:51:27 AM
Alice clearly thinks she is right according to the letter of the law but she hasn't considered the physical practicalities. Everyone had agreed to leave "in a couple of hours" which could either mean at noon precisely or by noon at the latest.

If Alice had been ready at 11.30 when the rest of the group said "shall we leave then?" there would have been no reason to wait another half hour. Everyone was ready, dressed, showered and ready to go. There would have been no point in waiting around. And from everyone else's point of view that was the situation. Four adults appear to be dressed and ready to go, why wait?

Since Alice was the only one of the four with the extra information that she wanted to be dressed differently and hadn't yet washed then she should have considered how this might appear to everyone else. Instead of watching TV she should have got ready to go and realised that everyone else would think she was ready when in fact she was not.

I don't actually see why she needed to change and wash if in everyone else's opinion she looked suitably dressed and didn't smell.
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: TomatoBunny on October 14, 2013, 06:54:14 AM
Alice, Bob, Charlie and Debra are four friends on a group holiday. They have talked early in the week about going on an excursion on Wednesday, but have made no firm plans.

Alice is the first to get up on Wednesday morning. Because no firm plans have been made, Alice throws on some casual clothes and spends the early morning lazing around. One by one, the other members of the party wake up and come downstairs. Alice asks Bob what the plans are, and he tells her that they will probably head out in a couple of hours.

My question is what happened between "no firm plans" when everyone went to bed Tues night to then having plans on Wed afterall? Since Bob was able to supply an answer for departure to Alice, it even sounds like Bob, Charlie and Debra decided when they were leaving at some point, without Alice around, which left Alice to have to ask them what it was instead of her being told or better yet, part of the decision.

Being noncommittal about setting plans seems needlessly frustrating. If Bob really told Alice; "maybe in a couple hours", then that right there still expresses uncertainty. Like.. maybe we won't go afterall. "Maybe in a couple hours" sounds like at the *earliest*, they would leave in 2hrs, but it would probably be longer than that. 'Maybe' makes it sound like there's no rush and no one cares when they leave.

I don't think Alice should have had to ask again about when everyone was leaving "oh, are we leaving soon? seems everyone is getting ready..." because it sounds nagging for her to keep asking about it. Some people even like to sit around for a bit after a shower instead of immediately leaving/doing something.

All in all, it seems like Bob, Charlie and Debra all knew the plan and how it shifted and no one brought Alice in on the decisions, so she had to ask after them. I don't think it's fair to say that Alice caused a delay in the plans, she can't read minds on what was really meant versus what was said.

I feel Alice got ready in the time frame offered, especially since there was no specific time frame given. Bob should not have left it open to such interpretation if there was really a set time they wanted to leave. Yes, Alice could have gotten ready before the rest of them woke up, but as far as she knew, there weren't set plans for the day. Tentative plans do not always come to fruition and we can't just assume they will happen miraculously on their own. If people are upset that Alice didn't get ready on their schedule, then they should have set plans the night before or given a more definitive time in the morning when asked.
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: Another Sarah on October 14, 2013, 07:02:10 AM
Alice, Bob, Charlie and Debra are four friends on a group holiday. They have talked early in the week about going on an excursion on Wednesday, but have made no firm plans.

Alice is the first to get up on Wednesday morning. Because no firm plans have been made, Alice throws on some casual clothes and spends the early morning lazing around. One by one, the other members of the party wake up and come downstairs. Alice asks Bob what the plans are, and he tells her that they will probably head out in a couple of hours.
All in all, it seems like Bob, Charlie and Debra all knew the plan and how it shifted and no one brought Alice in on the decisions, so she had to ask after them. I don't think it's fair to say that Alice caused a delay in the plans, she can't read minds on what was really meant versus what was said.

I feel Alice got ready in the time frame offered, especially since there was no specific time frame given. Bob should not have left it open to such interpretation if there was really a set time they wanted to leave. Yes, Alice could have gotten ready before the rest of them woke up, but as far as she knew, there weren't set plans for the day. Tentative plans do not always come to fruition and we can't just assume they will happen miraculously on their own. If people are upset that Alice didn't get ready on their schedule, then they should have set plans the night before or given a more definitive time in the morning when asked.

This is where I disagree - there were plans. She knew they were going out, she just didn't know when, and by the sounds of it (everyone being annoyed to lose half an hour at the place) it's the sort of excursion you do all day, like a sightseeing visit or amusement park.
Knowing that they planned to go out, she should have gotten ready to go out.
However, the group didn't agree a time to go out by so they can't call her late, and they obviously weren't in that much of a hurry if they all sat down to watch the end of the TV show.
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: KenveeB on October 14, 2013, 07:31:46 AM
Alice was in the wrong because she wasn't paying attention to the others' non-verbal communication and was sending out the wrong messages of her own. Everyone else sent out the message "let's get ready and go" by getting ready. Alice sent out the message "ready when you are" by being dressed, making no move or comment about needing additional time, and sitting around watching reruns on TV. The only problem was that Alice didn't match her non-verbal cues by actually being ready. I think the others were justifiably annoyed.
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: SeptGurl on October 14, 2013, 07:53:44 AM
I'm surprised that people would take 'a couple of hours' to mean in exactly two hours. I love a schedule, but that kind of wording would mean to me: We won't rush to get ready, but that's the direction that we're all heading, and around the time we're all ready, we'll get going. We expect that to be longer than the half hour it would take us all to get ready individually.

I really think Alice should have started to get ready, when everyone else was obviously preparing to leave.

POD. I would probably ballpark "a couple of hours" to mean somewhere in the vicinity of two hours, but not precisely two hours. If the cues going on around me indicated that everyone else was getting ready to leave, I'd take that cue and get ready myself so I'd be ready when everyone else was ready. My thought would be that I don't want to keep people waiting.

Even if Alice thought she had precisely two hours to get ready, she waited until the last minute to start (because she needed 30 minutes). Watching TV until the last minute (11:30) was a choice on her part. At that point, everyone else was ready, but she wasn't. It sounds like the others spent the previous 90 minutes getting ready to go while she chose to watch TV. Though she was still within the "couple of hours" timeframe, her decision to wait until the last minute had an effect on the others who were ready to go. The fact that she was already dressed added to their confusion. I think the others reasonably believed she was dressed to go. I also think they were reasonably surprised at hearing that she was not ready. It sounds to me like the others did Alice the courtesy of letting her finish the TV show before saying it was time to go.

Although I wouldn't say that Alice was rude, she made some choices during that two-hour period that created some annoyance among her friends, and I think their annoyance is understandable.
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: LeeLieLow on October 14, 2013, 07:59:14 AM
Sometimes you just have to use the bathroom before you can go out for the day and right then is when your body tells you.  I would say that you should cut her some slack.
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: Hmmmmm on October 14, 2013, 08:02:54 AM
A few of points of context to add:

1) Making plans the night before: There had been attempts to do this, and I think Alice had been particularly keen to make firm plans, but everyone else had been quite non-committal. This was probably the same that morning as well:

Alice: What time do we want to head off?
Bob: Eh, maybe in a couple of hours.

2) Alice was just watching TV. In fact, what happened was that she was watching reruns of something, and I think the show in question finished at 11:30am. So everyone else was ready by between 11am and 11:30am, as people finished getting ready they gathered on the sofa and watched with her. We all just assumed that Alice was ready, so when the show finished, we said "shall we head off now then?". That's when Alice said that she needed to get ready.

3) Alice actually only took about 15 minutes to get ready, so she actually only cost us 15 minutes' delay.

What caused a little bit of friction was the reaction to Alice telling us that she needed to get ready. Most people in the group felt that Alice should have been getting ready at the same time as everyone else. That way, everyone would have been ready ahead of schedule and we could have got another half hour at the place we were visiting.

Alice's argument was that she was told a time-frame in which to get ready, and she met that time-frame. I think from her point of view, nobody wanted to commit to a time, and when they did it was long enough that she thought she had time to laze around for a bit (we were on holiday). From her point of view, we were changing plans with no warning.

I think if we'd known Alice was not ready (i.e. if she'd been wearing clothes that were obviously not meant for outside the house), we might have said "aren't you going to get ready?", to which she would have said "I thought we weren't leaving till 12?", and the whole thing would have been sorted.

But was it our responsibility to check whether Alice was ready rather than assuming, or was it her responsibility to tell us that she wasn't, given that it really looked like she was?

I think Alice is more literal than the rest of you and likes to have a schedule. You guys now know this and this was just a case of poor communication on all sides.

If having more time at the location you were going to was really important to the rest of the group, it would seem like making plans the night before would have been easily done. A "Let's try to get out of her by 11:30" would seem fexible enough for the "go with the flow" people but specific enough for Alice who likes a schedule. And it also provides a guideline for dealing with the sleepy head that is still in bed at 11:00. You can then go say "hey were planning to leave in half an hour".

I honestly do not like a go with the flow approach when traveling with a group. I think some type of timeline prevents arguments.
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: wolfie on October 14, 2013, 09:22:52 AM
Alice, Bob, Charlie and Debra are four friends on a group holiday. They have talked early in the week about going on an excursion on Wednesday, but have made no firm plans.

Alice is the first to get up on Wednesday morning. Because no firm plans have been made, Alice throws on some casual clothes and spends the early morning lazing around. One by one, the other members of the party wake up and come downstairs. Alice asks Bob what the plans are, and he tells her that they will probably head out in a couple of hours.

My question is what happened between "no firm plans" when everyone went to bed Tues night to then having plans on Wed afterall? Since Bob was able to supply an answer for departure to Alice, it even sounds like Bob, Charlie and Debra decided when they were leaving at some point, without Alice around, which left Alice to have to ask them what it was instead of her being told or better yet, part of the decision.

Being noncommittal about setting plans seems needlessly frustrating. If Bob really told Alice; "maybe in a couple hours", then that right there still expresses uncertainty. Like.. maybe we won't go afterall. "Maybe in a couple hours" sounds like at the *earliest*, they would leave in 2hrs, but it would probably be longer than that. 'Maybe' makes it sound like there's no rush and no one cares when they leave.

I don't think Alice should have had to ask again about when everyone was leaving "oh, are we leaving soon? seems everyone is getting ready..." because it sounds nagging for her to keep asking about it. Some people even like to sit around for a bit after a shower instead of immediately leaving/doing something.

All in all, it seems like Bob, Charlie and Debra all knew the plan and how it shifted and no one brought Alice in on the decisions, so she had to ask after them. I don't think it's fair to say that Alice caused a delay in the plans, she can't read minds on what was really meant versus what was said.

I feel Alice got ready in the time frame offered, especially since there was no specific time frame given. Bob should not have left it open to such interpretation if there was really a set time they wanted to leave. Yes, Alice could have gotten ready before the rest of them woke up, but as far as she knew, there weren't set plans for the day. Tentative plans do not always come to fruition and we can't just assume they will happen miraculously on their own. If people are upset that Alice didn't get ready on their schedule, then they should have set plans the night before or given a more definitive time in the morning when asked.

I don't think that anyone actually discussed the plans and left Alice out of it. I think what happened is that the other folks read the body language of everyone else and saw that the plan was "let's get ready and then leave" where Alice expected that to be formally communicated and when it wasn't was surprised that she didn't have more time to get ready.
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: mspallaton on October 14, 2013, 09:39:37 AM
To be honest - I'm surprised Alice didn't start getting ready before anyone else was awake.  I understand lounging, but why bother getting dressed to the point of looking ready to walk out the door and not just finishing getting ready? 

I get being on vacation - but staying in PJs is one thing - it is obvious to everyone that you're not ready and they take your get ready time into account (meaning even if she didn't move soon enough, it wouldn't have surprised anyone that she still needed to get ready).

I think Alice was mostly in the wrong here.

- If she really felt she needed firm plans, she should have said that in a crystal clear way.  I get uptight about plans myself, but when someone says "in a couple hours", my response is generally the polite version of "no, really, please tell me a time so I can plan".
- She gets dressed, but not ready to go?  That is massively confusing to the people around her.
- She sits and watches TV, disregarding the obvious 'get ready' activity around her until everyone joins her on the couch and then goes to get ready after they are all clearly done.
- She is awake for quite some time before the next person, but doesn't take the opportunity to get herself ready to leave.

It's not that she should have to get ready so early, but that there is just no reason for the half-ready-half-not state that she put herself in, followed by the lack of communication.
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: TurtleDove on October 14, 2013, 09:44:36 AM
I am not going to pontificate on who was more wrong, but this is exactly why I always insist on a specific timeline when dealing with groups.  I am a morning exerciser, even on vacation.  If I know the group I am with wants to be out the door by 9:00 am, I will get up at 6:30 am and get my run in, be back in time to shower, and be ready by 9 am.  If I am told, "Oh, no plans, just when we are all up and ready" I have learned to get an actual time line.  I have taken people at their word, slept in until I woke up at 8:00 and then gone for my run and returned to find that other people also woke up early and wanted to get on the road and are upset that my "getting ready" includes 1.5 hours of exercise.  Sorry, but if the plan was "when we are all ready" I am not yet ready.  If the plan was, "let's leave by 9" I would have made it a point to *be* ready, even if that meant setting an alarm on vacation. 

As other posters pointed out, communication is key.  Everyone who failed to communicate is at fault in the OP.
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: Judah on October 14, 2013, 09:52:06 AM
Vague timelines, implications, and body language don't mean much in my world. If you want to tell me something use words. Alice was given a vague timeline of "about 2 hours" and she met the timeline. If the group wanted her do do differently, they should have said so.

Quote
Alice's argument was that she was told a time-frame in which to get ready, and she met that time-frame. I think from her point of view, nobody wanted to commit to a time, and when they did it was long enough that she thought she had time to laze around for a bit (we were on holiday). From her point of view, we were changing plans with no warning.

I agree with Alice.
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: KenveeB on October 14, 2013, 10:23:53 AM
Sometimes you just have to use the bathroom before you can go out for the day and right then is when your body tells you.  I would say that you should cut her some slack.

If she'd just had to use the bathroom, that would be a different story. She said she needed half an hour "to get ready."
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: Goosey on October 14, 2013, 10:33:42 AM
I don't think anyone was really rude. I just think this is a "lesson learned" that you all have different ways of thinking.

Alice sounds like she needs a firm deadline (many people don't pick up on "everyone is getting ready = everyone wants to leave when they are ready").

The rest thinks "go with the flow" needs no definition.

In the future, once everyone is up, I'd start a count down or set a time when you want everyone ready.

Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: menley on October 14, 2013, 10:40:29 AM
Vague timelines, implications, and body language don't mean much in my world. If you want to tell me something use words. Alice was given a vague timeline of "about 2 hours" and she met the timeline. If the group wanted her do do differently, they should have said so.

Quote
Alice's argument was that she was told a time-frame in which to get ready, and she met that time-frame. I think from her point of view, nobody wanted to commit to a time, and when they did it was long enough that she thought she had time to laze around for a bit (we were on holiday). From her point of view, we were changing plans with no warning.

I agree with Alice.

I agree with this as well.
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: lowspark on October 14, 2013, 11:15:17 AM
Based on the OP, I was going to chalk this up to differing vacation philosophies. Some people like to lounge around after getting up, some people want to get ready and go as soon as they awaken.

But after reading the update in post #27, it sounds to me like Alice was being PA. She wanted to firm up the plans the day before (I agree with that!) but no one wanted to. She asked what the plans were that morning and was told "a couple of hours". So she decided to take that literally instead of reading the obvious cues.

And this brings me right back to my original read on this: differing styles. Most of the group is ok with playing it by ear and sort of going with the group. Alice wants a firm plan and will stick to it, by gum, regardless of changes which might occur on the fly.

The answer to all of this is, as PPs have noted, communication and planning. I've been on vacations with people who just want to lounge around and sleep in and who have a "whatever is fine" attitude. I'm totally a go-go-go, plan ahead, have back up ideas in case things don't pan out, kind of vacationer. The two don't mesh well, but no matter what, when vacationing with a group, it's always best to have things laid out in advance. It doesn't have to be a rigid plan, but it should be clear to everyone what the plan is (even if it's sleep in and lounge around).

And if there's any ambiguity, it should be cleared up as far in advance as possible. I don't think it was unreasonable for Alice to try to get firm plans agreed to the night before. And when she was told a couple of hours, well then, she figured a couple of hours. Like I said, I think she was being PA not to pick up on the signals, but I can see her making a statement in this case of, I asked for a definite plans to be made and I'd like that to happen.
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: Victim Of Fate on October 14, 2013, 11:45:14 AM
To be honest - I'm surprised Alice didn't start getting ready before anyone else was awake.  I understand lounging, but why bother getting dressed to the point of looking ready to walk out the door and not just finishing getting ready? 

I get being on vacation - but staying in PJs is one thing - it is obvious to everyone that you're not ready and they take your get ready time into account (meaning even if she didn't move soon enough, it wouldn't have surprised anyone that she still needed to get ready).

In fairness, I think that the reason she was up is because she went to her car to get something. Then she didn't bother getting ready because she thought that we weren't leaving till 12.

Quote
I think Alice was mostly in the wrong here.

- If she really felt she needed firm plans, she should have said that in a crystal clear way.  I get uptight about plans myself, but when someone says "in a couple hours", my response is generally the polite version of "no, really, please tell me a time so I can plan".
- She gets dressed, but not ready to go?  That is massively confusing to the people around her.
- She sits and watches TV, disregarding the obvious 'get ready' activity around her until everyone joins her on the couch and then goes to get ready after they are all clearly done.
- She is awake for quite some time before the next person, but doesn't take the opportunity to get herself ready to leave.

It's not that she should have to get ready so early, but that there is just no reason for the half-ready-half-not state that she put herself in, followed by the lack of communication.

The thing is, I think if I was her (and I have been in the same situation), I would probably say that it was up to me what I chose to wear while lounging around. We all made the assumption that she was ready, but what I thought was slightly unfair was that everyone else (there were actually seven of us - I just couldn't be bothered to think up three more names!) seemed to think that she had been inconsiderate, whereas I didn't really think she had.

I mean, like her, I thought that we were planning on leaving at midday, so I can entirely see why she thought that she still had half an hour at 11:30. It does seem that most of you think the same as the majority of that group - that she should have taken note of the fact that everyone else was getting ready. I think from her point of view, she didn't know that people were getting ready specifically with a view to leaving, but rather that they were just getting ready - since she had 12pm as the start time in her mind, I think she was probably assuming that people were just getting ready for the day, rather than getting ready to leave ASAP.

That's why I thought it was a little unfair, especially as everyone had been a little non-committal about when they wanted to leave in the first place.
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: TurtleDove on October 14, 2013, 11:49:45 AM
I can see her making a statement in this case of, I asked for a definite plans to be made and I'd like that to happen.
I agree with this, and would just emphasize that definite plans *were* made ... to leave at noon.  Alice stuck to the plans and it was the rest of the group that wanted to change them.
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: lowspark on October 14, 2013, 11:59:01 AM
I can see her making a statement in this case of, I asked for a definite plans to be made and I'd like that to happen.
I agree with this, and would just emphasize that definite plans *were* made ... to leave at noon.  Alice stuck to the plans and it was the rest of the group that wanted to change them.

Yup, and this is exactly where the communication broke down:
Quote
Alice asks Bob what the plans are, and he tells her that they will probably head out in a couple of hours.


Alice asked Bob. Bob gave her e sort of vague answer: "probably" and "in a couple of hours", and none of that was communicated to the rest of the group.

So, Alice took Bob at his word, firmed up the "probably" in her own mind, and stuck with that. I can see the frustration on her part, but I can also see the frustration of the rest of the group as they feel that it should be clear to Alice that they are getting ready to head out and they feel she should have been ready when they were.
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: wolfie on October 14, 2013, 12:05:45 PM
I can see her making a statement in this case of, I asked for a definite plans to be made and I'd like that to happen.
I agree with this, and would just emphasize that definite plans *were* made ... to leave at noon.  Alice stuck to the plans and it was the rest of the group that wanted to change them.

I don't think you can say that. To me a couple of hours doesn't equal 2 hours specifically. To me that phrasing would indicate that we should start getting ready now and we will probably head out as soon as we are all ready. 7 people getting ready should take a couple of hours, give or take.
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: Arila on October 14, 2013, 12:19:58 PM
When there were 4 people, I said it was rude to do anything to drag down the pace of going and doing. Now that there are actually 7 people on this trip, I think it was even more rude of her to be a drag on the plans for the day. It just takes 1 person not being ready to slow everything down, so the larger the group, the more important it is to reduce your contribution to the drag.

She knew the plans were, in general, to go out, and she should have gotten ready before she lounged around.

I think she was being very PA about the whole thing. She wanted specific plans, the group declined, so she made sure to make them feel it the next day.
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: Judah on October 14, 2013, 12:20:07 PM
I can see her making a statement in this case of, I asked for a definite plans to be made and I'd like that to happen.
I agree with this, and would just emphasize that definite plans *were* made ... to leave at noon.  Alice stuck to the plans and it was the rest of the group that wanted to change them.

I don't think you can say that. To me a couple of hours doesn't equal 2 hours specifically. To me that phrasing would indicate that we should start getting ready now and we will probably head out as soon as we are all ready. 7 people getting ready should take a couple of hours, give or take.

But as you've read in this thread, to many of us it does mean 2 hours specifically. It certainly would to me. If you mean something other than two hours, say what you mean.

Alice asked Bob. Bob gave her e sort of vague answer: "probably" and "in a couple of hours", and none of that was communicated to the rest of the group.

So, Alice took Bob at his word, firmed up the "probably" in her own mind, and stuck with that. I can see the frustration on her part, but I can also see the frustration of the rest of the group as they feel that it should be clear to Alice that they are getting ready to head out and they feel she should have been ready when they were.

I don't see why it *should* be clear that their getting ready meant the group would leave when they were ready.  If I'm told I have a couple of hours to do something, I expect to have a couple of hours.  I don't see how this can be Alice's fault at all when she was going with the information she had been given. 


Edited because wood and would are two totally different things.
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: Lynn2000 on October 14, 2013, 12:21:56 PM
I think when Bob said, "We'll maybe leave in a couple of hours," that was the perfect opportunity for Alice to say, "Oh, so noon, then?" And then Bob could say either "yes" or "Well, maybe earlier if everyone is ready." But I don't think it's solely the fault of one side or the other, I think they both made a lot of assumptions about what other people were doing. I would've interpreted a "couple of hours" from 10am to be noon-ish, vaguely 11:45 to 12:15, but nothing strict. I don't think I would've made the leap to, "Whenever everyone's ready," unless these words were actually said.

But, on the other hand, as I mentioned before I would've been ready to go earlier anyway, because my experience with group outings is that miscommunications are common and I wouldn't want to be the one holding everyone up. I do think that if Alice could've gotten ready more in advance of the deadline, she should have done so, even if she was completely certain of the deadline in her own mind--she left her "getting ready" until the last time slot when she didn't have to, and that might have inadvertently held people up if she couldn't find a shoe, her hair dryer tripped a circuit, the hotel conditioner left her hair tangled, etc..

To me it seems like one of those situations where I wouldn't be able to control what anyone else was doing, but I could definitely make sure that I was ready to walk out the door whenever, so if we were ever late it wouldn't be my fault.
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: lowspark on October 14, 2013, 12:27:55 PM

Alice asked Bob. Bob gave her e sort of vague answer: "probably" and "in a couple of hours", and none of that was communicated to the rest of the group.

So, Alice took Bob at his word, firmed up the "probably" in her own mind, and stuck with that. I can see the frustration on her part, but I can also see the frustration of the rest of the group as they feel that it should be clear to Alice that they are getting ready to head out and they feel she should have been ready when they were.

I don't see why it *should* be clear that their getting ready meant the group would leave when they were ready.  If I'm told I have a couple of hours to do something, I expect to have a couple of hours.  I don't see how this can be Alice's fault at all when she was going with the information she had been given.

What I was saying was not that "it should be clear" but that I could see the point of view of the rest of the group, of them thinking that "it should be clear".

Instead of communicating and sticking with a firm plan, everyone just sort of figured it out on their own. So no surprise that everyone wasn't on the same page.

Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: Judah on October 14, 2013, 12:29:02 PM

Alice asked Bob. Bob gave her e sort of vague answer: "probably" and "in a couple of hours", and none of that was communicated to the rest of the group.

So, Alice took Bob at his word, firmed up the "probably" in her own mind, and stuck with that. I can see the frustration on her part, but I can also see the frustration of the rest of the group as they feel that it should be clear to Alice that they are getting ready to head out and they feel she should have been ready when they were.

I don't see why it *should* be clear that their getting ready meant the group would leave when they were ready.  If I'm told I have a couple of hours to do something, I expect to have a couple of hours.  I don't see how this can be Alice's fault at all when she was going with the information she had been given.

What I was saying was not that "it should be clear" but that I could see the point of view of the rest of the group, of them thinking that "it should be clear".

Instead of communicating and sticking with a firm plan, everyone just sort of figured it out on their own. So no surprise that everyone wasn't on the same page.

I do agree with you there.
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: TurtleDove on October 14, 2013, 12:29:41 PM
so if we were ever late it wouldn't be my fault.

I think this is where the difference of perspective lies.  To me, Alice was not late.  She was asked/expected to be ready a half hour early.
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: MindsEye on October 14, 2013, 12:30:22 PM
I think she was being very PA about the whole thing. She wanted specific plans, the group declined, so she made sure to make them feel it the next day.

This is where I am falling. 

So Alice wanted to finish watching her show before doing anything.  Well, that's fine.  BUT.  She couldn't say something like "Her guys, as soon as my show is over I will get ready to take off, I will only need a couple of minutes"?  She didn't give you any kind of update or indication of her status?  Instead she just sat there? 

That sounds... pretty PA. 

OP, I actually think that you are the rest of the group are to be commended for your patience with Alice.  I could easily see another group simply leaving without her at that point. 
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: Victim Of Fate on October 14, 2013, 12:37:51 PM
I think she was being very PA about the whole thing. She wanted specific plans, the group declined, so she made sure to make them feel it the next day.

This is where I am falling. 

So Alice wanted to finish watching her show before doing anything.  Well, that's fine.  BUT.  She couldn't say something like "Her guys, as soon as my show is over I will get ready to take off, I will only need a couple of minutes"?  She didn't give you any kind of update or indication of her status?  Instead she just sat there? 

That sounds... pretty PA. 

OP, I actually think that you are the rest of the group are to be commended for your patience with Alice.  I could easily see another group simply leaving without her at that point.

I think she may have been a bit PA, but at the same time, I think she genuinely did think that everyone was on the same page and that we'd be leaving at 12.

I'm not sure that everyone else getting ready necessarily implied that we were all planning on leaving as soon as we were ready. When I say we were getting ready, I don't mean that we were putting on our coats and packing bags, more that we were getting showered and changed.
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: wolfie on October 14, 2013, 12:40:12 PM
I don't think you can say that. To me a couple of hours doesn't equal 2 hours specifically. To me that phrasing would indicate that we should start getting ready now and we will probably head out as soon as we are all ready. 7 people getting ready should take a couple of hours, give or take.

But as you've read in this thread, to many of us it does mean 2 hours specifically. It certainly wood to me. If you mean something other than two hours, say what you mean.


I was more replying to turtledove's assertion that definite plans had been made. I don't think that Bob and the rest actually thought that definite plans were made. To them things were still fluid - they would leave in a couple of hours. Not exactly two - but around there. If everyone got ready early then great, if something happened and it took longer then bummer but still okay. But I doubt Bob was actually thinking "we will leave at exactly noon". Sounds like that is what Alice heard though.
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: Winterlight on October 14, 2013, 12:47:40 PM
There were actually slightly more than four of us, and Alice was not in a couple with any of the other people there (there was only one couple). There was no issue with competition for bathrooms etc. Alice simply thought that the plan must have been to leave at noon (having been told at 10am that the plan was to leave in two hours), whereas for everyone else, the "two hours" meant "as soon as everyone is ready". I must admit, I thought that we were aiming to leave at noon, I just happened to be ready before then because of when my turn to use the bathroom came up.

Given this, I don't think either side was wrong, necessarily, just unclear. Alice needs a firm timeline and it was kind of wibbly, so she went with the two hours given.

And to me, a couple of hours would mean two hours.
 
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: Rohanna on October 14, 2013, 01:05:10 PM
I personally tend to prefer to be "ready" before I sit down if I am going off to do anything with people- what if I go to get ready and something happens to delay me- I'd rather that happened with spare time. I'm a touch obsessive like that though.
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: TurtleDove on October 14, 2013, 01:35:08 PM
I was more replying to turtledove's assertion that definite plans had been made. I don't think that Bob and the rest actually thought that definite plans were made. To them things were still fluid - they would leave in a couple of hours. Not exactly two - but around there. If everyone got ready early then great, if something happened and it took longer then bummer but still okay. But I doubt Bob was actually thinking "we will leave at exactly noon". Sounds like that is what Alice heard though.

I guess here is where I don't follow why the fluid group was upset.  Not everyone got ready early.  Alice didn't.  So fluidly, the group should have been fine with that.
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: pierrotlunaire0 on October 14, 2013, 02:14:50 PM
I think that there was a massive breakdown in communication, and I don't hold anyone at fault.

Now, if my father were to say, "Oh, probably in a couple of hours," one of us would be nudging you and saying, "What he really means is that he would like to leave in the next 5 minutes."  Except we would have been telling you that all along.

Now Bob knows that Alice likes a firm time and will take it exactly, he should phrase his communications accordingly.  And Alice should ask, "Now does that mean I have until noon then?"
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: VorFemme on October 14, 2013, 02:58:17 PM
Great, the age old debate (at least since we learned to "tell time" by the position of the sun or a sundial (water clock, banded candle, whatever).

There have been the "be ready by X" (if they say "we're leaving at dawn", by gum, you'd better be up before dawn and ready to leave as the sun's first rays come over the horizon) people.  If they meant three heartbeats after dawn, they would have said so.

Then there are those who hear the "be ready by X" and think that sounds like when they need to roll out of their sleeping place (sleeping bag, pile of furs, hammock, etc.) and start getting ready.  If you are lucky - they put their gear together the day before - if not lucky, they still have to find everything and throw it in a carry bag (whether modern luggage or a back pack made out of hide on a wooden frame).

There are smaller groups who fall in the middle - they are UP at dawn but still looking for one or two things...and they will be ready "shortly" - but not until after they've delayed things just long enough that the sun is over the horizon instead of only halfway...

Bob and the group were in the smaller group - they were ready very quickly once they were up compared to when the vague plans to leave had specified - Alice, on the other hand, wanted to know the day before EXACTLY when to leave and delayed her preparations just enough to go very close to then.  She may have LOOKED ready to go, but she wasn't - which confused the rest of the group and left her "in charge" of exactly when the group left.

Bob & the rest of the group now know that Alice wants to know exactly when the group is leaving and will not be ready early unless there has been communication about "the yeti feeding is at two so we have to leave by noon, but if we CAN get out early, there is baby yeti viewing at one, if anyone wants to see that, we'll have to leave at least thirty minutes earlier". 

Or even, "traffic can be bad around here and parking takes time to find any time there is a yeti on display - so we might want to leave any time we're all ready after 11 am".
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: KenveeB on October 14, 2013, 03:36:19 PM
Or next time Alice needs to pay attention to the way the rest of the group is planning instead of insisting on her way being the only way. Why should she get to dictate the plans of six other people because she read something none of the other six did into their plans? I say this as someone who's much more like Alice in terms of wanting actual schedules instead of loose plans. But that's my quirk. If I'm traveling with other people who like it the same way, great. But if I'm with a group where the majority is loosey-goosey, then it's up to me to nail down specific plans or be prepared to follow with a more last-minute plan. Alice isn't right just because she wants a schedule. In a group like that, majority rules and she needs to go with it. Just get dressed before sitting down to watch tv and you're ready whether the group wants to leave in five minutes or an hour.
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: Girly on October 14, 2013, 03:44:36 PM
I'm sorry, but to me, probably leave in a couple of hours does not mean 'we will leave at noon'.

If I'm sitting around, and three other people are all getting ready, one by one coming and sitting with me, why in the world would I wait until everyone else is finished getting ready before even starting to get ready myself?

She was up and dressed, I could totally see where the other three people thought she was ready to go. The onus is on her to say (to herself or out loud) 'oh! everyone is almost ready, let me get ready too!' I think she was incredibly rude to wait around (tv program or not) until everyone was finished to even start getting ready - no matter how much time it takes her.
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: Victim Of Fate on October 14, 2013, 03:49:20 PM
I'm sorry, but to me, probably leave in a couple of hours does not mean 'we will leave at noon'.

If I'm sitting around, and three other people are all getting ready, one by one coming and sitting with me, why in the world would I wait until everyone else is finished getting ready before even starting to get ready myself?

She was up and dressed, I could totally see where the other three people thought she was ready to go. The onus is on her to say (to herself or out loud) 'oh! everyone is almost ready, let me get ready too!' I think she was incredibly rude to wait around (tv program or not) until everyone was finished to even start getting ready - no matter how much time it takes her.

Why doesn't it? Isn't that literally what it means?
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: WillyNilly on October 14, 2013, 03:54:39 PM
I'm sorry, but to me, probably leave in a couple of hours does not mean 'we will leave at noon'.

If I'm sitting around, and three other people are all getting ready, one by one coming and sitting with me, why in the world would I wait until everyone else is finished getting ready before even starting to get ready myself?

She was up and dressed, I could totally see where the other three people thought she was ready to go. The onus is on her to say (to herself or out loud) 'oh! everyone is almost ready, let me get ready too!' I think she was incredibly rude to wait around (tv program or not) until everyone was finished to even start getting ready - no matter how much time it takes her.

Why doesn't it? Isn't that literally what it means?

Well for me, once you add in the word "probably" (or "about" or "around") you are saying in no way shape or form should the next few words be taken as absolute literal. Plus the very nature of the wording "a couple of hours" is casual and vague, whereas "noon" is specific, so answering a question is a casual way indicates its a loose time frame not a specific time frame.


All you statements are general you.
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: sweetonsno on October 14, 2013, 06:18:44 PM
This is an interesting discussion.

I've always been a stickler for punctuality, so I aim to be early whenever possible. When I was in middle school, one of our teachers told us "Early is on time, on time is late, late is unacceptable." What she meant, essentially, was that being "on time" for class meant being ready to begin working when class began. Students who were entering the room when the bell rang were late if they still had to take their seats and get themselves organized after class start time. It was obviously not okay to walk in after the bell rang, barring any emergency.

It sounds like Alice was aiming to be "on time" late. That is, she was aiming to be "let's start leaving" at the "leaving" time. I think that when other people are involved, it is a safe rule of thumb to try and be a bit ahead of schedule in the event of unforeseen circumstances.

I tend to see deadlines as meaning "this time at the latest" rather than "this time exactly." Take airplane departures as an example. The doors usually close about five minutes before departure, but if everyone is on board, then they will sometimes leave early. Obviously, sometimes circumstances (connections, bad traffic into the airport, getting stuck behind a pack of twenty first-time flyers who have knee-high lace-up boots in the security line, etc.) prevent people from getting on the plane ahead of time. I was once the woman sprinting breathlessly up to the gate as they paged me (twenty minutes before departure time). However, what Alice was doing was like sitting in the lounge sipping a martini for as long as possible while everyone else boarded and took their seats.

I think the bottom line is that when multiple people are involved in an excursion, it's rude to act as though you're making a solo excursion. You should pay attention to others and try to follow suit as much as possible. Even though Alice had heard "we're leaving at noon," she failed to notice that others seemed to be getting ready a bit faster than expected.

I think a lot of people would assume that a person who was fully clothed and watching TV was trying to stay out of the way and occupy time until everyone else was ready to go. In fact, the other people may have been hustling because they assumed she was waiting on them.

I guess the lesson learned from this is that Alice and the rest of the group operate under a different set of assumptions and understand nonverbal cues very differently.

(Sorry if this winds up being a duplicate; my session timed out.)
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: Victim Of Fate on October 14, 2013, 06:22:47 PM
I'm sorry, but to me, probably leave in a couple of hours does not mean 'we will leave at noon'.

If I'm sitting around, and three other people are all getting ready, one by one coming and sitting with me, why in the world would I wait until everyone else is finished getting ready before even starting to get ready myself?

She was up and dressed, I could totally see where the other three people thought she was ready to go. The onus is on her to say (to herself or out loud) 'oh! everyone is almost ready, let me get ready too!' I think she was incredibly rude to wait around (tv program or not) until everyone was finished to even start getting ready - no matter how much time it takes her.

Why doesn't it? Isn't that literally what it means?

Well for me, once you add in the word "probably" (or "about" or "around") you are saying in no way shape or form should the next few words be taken as absolute literal. Plus the very nature of the wording "a couple of hours" is casual and vague, whereas "noon" is specific, so answering a question is a casual way indicates its a loose time frame not a specific time frame.


All you statements are general you.

But the point that I was making is that "a couple of hours" literally means "two hours". I mean, "a couple" isn't the same as "a few" or "several", which don't have specific values. A couple is two.

If Bob had said "around two hours" it would mean the same thing, so I don't think it was fair for us to assume that Alice would realise that he didn't mean some time close to two hours from when he said it. On the other hand, it was really frustrating that she wasn't ready, because we could have left right there and then.
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: sweetonsno on October 14, 2013, 06:34:35 PM

But the point that I was making is that "a couple of hours" literally means "two hours". I mean, "a couple" isn't the same as "a few" or "several", which don't have specific values. A couple is two.

If Bob had said "around two hours" it would mean the same thing, so I don't think it was fair for us to assume that Alice would realise that he didn't mean some time close to two hours from when he said it. On the other hand, it was really frustrating that she wasn't ready, because we could have left right there and then.

I'd disagree on this one. "A couple," when referring to a quantity, is not definite, at least not when used colloquially. If someone says "I'll be done in a couple of minutes," I don't think most people would be surprised if it took three or four minutes to complete the task. If someone asked to borrow a couple of bucks, I doubt that most people would be surprised if they returned 75 cents in change.

In many dictionaries, the idiomatic meaning is usually listed as something along the lines of "a few" or "a small number of." According to the Random House, the phrase has been used as an indefinite number for a few centuries.
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: WillyNilly on October 14, 2013, 06:35:18 PM
I'm sorry, but to me, probably leave in a couple of hours does not mean 'we will leave at noon'.

If I'm sitting around, and three other people are all getting ready, one by one coming and sitting with me, why in the world would I wait until everyone else is finished getting ready before even starting to get ready myself?

She was up and dressed, I could totally see where the other three people thought she was ready to go. The onus is on her to say (to herself or out loud) 'oh! everyone is almost ready, let me get ready too!' I think she was incredibly rude to wait around (tv program or not) until everyone was finished to even start getting ready - no matter how much time it takes her.

Why doesn't it? Isn't that literally what it means?

Well for me, once you add in the word "probably" (or "about" or "around") you are saying in no way shape or form should the next few words be taken as absolute literal. Plus the very nature of the wording "a couple of hours" is casual and vague, whereas "noon" is specific, so answering a question is a casual way indicates its a loose time frame not a specific time frame.


All you statements are general you.

But the point that I was making is that "a couple of hours" literally means "two hours". I mean, "a couple" isn't the same as "a few" or "several", which don't have specific values. A couple is two.

If Bob had said "around two hours" it would mean the same thing, so I don't think it was fair for us to assume that Alice would realise that he didn't mean some time close to two hours from when he said it. On the other hand, it was really frustrating that she wasn't ready, because we could have left right there and then.

"A couple" might literally mean "two" but once the qualifier "probably" is put in the sentence it can no longer mean "exactly two". The usage of "probably a couple" means "its likely to be two hours but it might not be, it might more or it might be less 'a couple' is a mid-range guesstimate".

Not to mention Bob was simply guessing on behalf of 6 other people, he wasn't actually an authority or in charge, right? And Alice knew that, that he was simply assuming a probable but not exact time frame, right? So for her to take his word, and his word alone, as the absolute exact departure time was not very logical or fair.
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: Girly on October 14, 2013, 06:36:09 PM
I'm sorry, but to me, probably leave in a couple of hours does not mean 'we will leave at noon'.

If I'm sitting around, and three other people are all getting ready, one by one coming and sitting with me, why in the world would I wait until everyone else is finished getting ready before even starting to get ready myself?

She was up and dressed, I could totally see where the other three people thought she was ready to go. The onus is on her to say (to herself or out loud) 'oh! everyone is almost ready, let me get ready too!' I think she was incredibly rude to wait around (tv program or not) until everyone was finished to even start getting ready - no matter how much time it takes her.

Why doesn't it? Isn't that literally what it means?

Well for me, once you add in the word "probably" (or "about" or "around") you are saying in no way shape or form should the next few words be taken as absolute literal. Plus the very nature of the wording "a couple of hours" is casual and vague, whereas "noon" is specific, so answering a question is a casual way indicates its a loose time frame not a specific time frame.


All you statements are general you.

But the point that I was making is that "a couple of hours" literally means "two hours". I mean, "a couple" isn't the same as "a few" or "several", which don't have specific values. A couple is two.

If Bob had said "around two hours" it would mean the same thing, so I don't think it was fair for us to assume that Alice would realise that he didn't mean some time close to two hours from when he said it. On the other hand, it was really frustrating that she wasn't ready, because we could have left right there and then.

It's not like you all were meeting up somewhere. I think that's where my distinction lies.

Where the other three people were *right there in front of her* showing up ready to go.... I feel that she should have taken the initiative to get herself ready as to not 'hold up' the rest of the group. For everyone to be sitting there, ready, and her just to get up and say 'oh, I guess I'll get ready now' is totally inconsiderate.
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: Victim Of Fate on October 14, 2013, 06:37:59 PM

But the point that I was making is that "a couple of hours" literally means "two hours". I mean, "a couple" isn't the same as "a few" or "several", which don't have specific values. A couple is two.

If Bob had said "around two hours" it would mean the same thing, so I don't think it was fair for us to assume that Alice would realise that he didn't mean some time close to two hours from when he said it. On the other hand, it was really frustrating that she wasn't ready, because we could have left right there and then.

I'd disagree on this one. "A couple," when referring to a quantity, is not definite, at least not when used colloquially. If someone says "I'll be done in a couple of minutes," I don't think most people would be surprised if it took three or four minutes to complete the task. If someone asked to borrow a couple of bucks, I doubt that most people would be surprised if they returned 75 cents in change.

In many dictionaries, the idiomatic meaning is usually listed as something along the lines of "a few" or "a small number of." According to the Random House, the phrase has been used as an indefinite number for a few centuries.

That's interesting, and I guess gets right to the crux of the issue. I've never, ever heard the word used like that. Or at least I didn't think I had. I've always assumed that a couple means two, and that if someone says "a couple of minutes" and takes three minutes, they were simply underestimating.
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: Victim Of Fate on October 14, 2013, 06:48:32 PM
Just an additional point of clarification. The way I wrote it may have made it sound like everyone was standing there waiting with coats and shoes on, but that wasn't really the case. When we were ready, for the most part we just hung out in the lounge. So while we assumed that Alice was ready, she may have assumed that we were just getting showered and changed, rather than that we were expecting to leave imminently. To be honest, I wasn't expecting that either.

I think it really was down to a failure to communicate. But everyone else in the group seemed fairly adamant that Alice had been, well, at worst rude, and at best clueless. Alice, for her part, seemed quite annoyed that having been very woolly about when we wanted to leave, we were all of a sudden in a hurry now that we were ready.
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: CakeEater on October 14, 2013, 06:50:26 PM
I'm sorry, but to me, probably leave in a couple of hours does not mean 'we will leave at noon'.

If I'm sitting around, and three other people are all getting ready, one by one coming and sitting with me, why in the world would I wait until everyone else is finished getting ready before even starting to get ready myself?

She was up and dressed, I could totally see where the other three people thought she was ready to go. The onus is on her to say (to herself or out loud) 'oh! everyone is almost ready, let me get ready too!' I think she was incredibly rude to wait around (tv program or not) until everyone was finished to even start getting ready - no matter how much time it takes her.

Why doesn't it? Isn't that literally what it means?

Well for me, once you add in the word "probably" (or "about" or "around") you are saying in no way shape or form should the next few words be taken as absolute literal. Plus the very nature of the wording "a couple of hours" is casual and vague, whereas "noon" is specific, so answering a question is a casual way indicates its a loose time frame not a specific time frame.


All you statements are general you.

But the point that I was making is that "a couple of hours" literally means "two hours". I mean, "a couple" isn't the same as "a few" or "several", which don't have specific values. A couple is two.
If Bob had said "around two hours" it would mean the same thing, so I don't think it was fair for us to assume that Alice would realise that he didn't mean some time close to two hours from when he said it. On the other hand, it was really frustrating that she wasn't ready, because we could have left right there and then.

The word 'couple' just isn't used that specifically all the time.

My Dad will often ask if my mother has a couple of dollars when they leave the house. He means, does my mother have enough cash to pay for whatever they're planning to do.

'I'm having a couple of friends around' doesn't literally mean 2 people are coming over.

If someone asked me for 'a couple of fries', I wouldn't get annoyed if they took 3.

'Probably in a couple of hours' doesn't mean at exactly 12 o'clock, otherwise surely Bob would have said, 'We're leaving at 12.'

Although I agree with posters who have said that Alice didn't ask the whole group, only one person, so she couldn't really take that answer as gospel, anyway.

I was more replying to turtledove's assertion that definite plans had been made. I don't think that Bob and the rest actually thought that definite plans were made. To them things were still fluid - they would leave in a couple of hours. Not exactly two - but around there. If everyone got ready early then great, if something happened and it took longer then bummer but still okay. But I doubt Bob was actually thinking "we will leave at exactly noon". Sounds like that is what Alice heard though.

I guess here is where I don't follow why the fluid group was upset.  Not everyone got ready early.  Alice didn't.  So fluidly, the group should have been fine with that.

To my way of thinking, Wolfie is saying that if it took *everyone* longer to get ready, rather than just one person. As in, it just took longer to get everyone through the shower, eaten breakfast, cleaned up etc. Not that they should all wait as long as it took for one person to finish watching whatever they wanted on TV. If Alice had wanted to watch TV for another two hours, I doubt anyone would think that 'having fluid plans' meant that they should all stay in until Alice's reruns were finished.
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: Owly on October 14, 2013, 07:04:54 PM
I dont think anyone was particularly wrong, it was just a miscommunication. It sounds like the group thought they were going to get to leave early, were annoyed to find out they were wrong, and are looking for somewhere to direct their annoyance. And I do understand their annoyance, but that doesn't mean it's any one person's fault.

Though considering that we're talking about all of 15 minutes, and that the group still left within the stated time frame, I think any level of annoyance beyond "oh, darn" is excessive.
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: sammycat on October 14, 2013, 07:22:50 PM
I'm sorry, but to me, probably leave in a couple of hours does not mean 'we will leave at noon'.

If I'm sitting around, and three other people are all getting ready, one by one coming and sitting with me, why in the world would I wait until everyone else is finished getting ready before even starting to get ready myself?

She was up and dressed, I could totally see where the other three people thought she was ready to go. The onus is on her to say (to herself or out loud) 'oh! everyone is almost ready, let me get ready too!' I think she was incredibly rude to wait around (tv program or not) until everyone was finished to even start getting ready - no matter how much time it takes her.

Where the other three people were *right there in front of her* showing up ready to go.... I feel that she should have taken the initiative to get herself ready as to not 'hold up' the rest of the group. For everyone to be sitting there, ready, and her just to get up and say 'oh, I guess I'll get ready now' is totally inconsiderate.

I agree totally.

It's actually made even worse by the fact that it wasn't just three people waiting on one person, but was in fact, six.  If (general) you can see that many people around you getting ready, then it should be some sort of clue that (general) you should be too.
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: blarg314 on October 14, 2013, 07:43:54 PM

I do wonder if it was Alice was being passive aggressive, but I don't particularly blame her if she was.

According to the OP's update, Alice has actually tried to make concrete plans in advance - in which case she would know exactly when they planned to leave. Instead, she had to wait around for hours while her friends slooowly woke up, then said that they planned to leave in a couple of hours, then slooowly spent a couple of hours lounging around and gradually getting ready - followed by getting pissy when Alice wasn't ready to leap out the door the moment the group mind has decided it's finally ready to get going and the relaxed morning of lounging around suddenly turns into "Go, go go!  We must get out and not waste any time. Come on!"

If a group's getting ready routine takes an hour and a half after a relaxed morning of sleeping in, then they don't really have grounds to complain about being held up for a whole fifteen minutes when they haven't actually used their words to indicate that they're getting close to being ready to actually leave, but rather expect that the early riser who is waiting for them will be attentively watching their routine and subtle body language clues to figure out exactly when they want to leave.

My advice to Alice would be to try to make concrete plans, and if they refuse and she wakes up early, then get ready, leave a note saying when she'll be back, and head out for a nice breakfast and a walk.


Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: KenveeB on October 14, 2013, 08:47:52 PM
If a group's getting ready routine takes an hour and a half after a relaxed morning of sleeping in, then they don't really have grounds to complain about being held up for a whole fifteen minutes when they haven't actually used their words to indicate that they're getting close to being ready to actually leave, but rather expect that the early riser who is waiting for them will be attentively watching their routine and subtle body language clues to figure out exactly when they want to leave.

I do wonder if the group's reaction would've been the same if Alice had been getting ready when everyone else was and just happened to take 15 minutes longer than the others. I read the annoyance being less at the "you held us up for 15 minutes" and more at "you sat around watching tv while we got ready and then want to say you need more time?" It showed a lack of respect for everyone else, and I think that's what the rest of the group was reacting to.
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: that_one_girl on October 14, 2013, 09:41:57 PM
 It makes sense that Alice might throw on a random t-shirt and yoga pants to have coffee/read a book/watch TV around the vacation house where only her friends can see her but not want to go out in that outfit. Alice might feel fine without makeup in the confines of the vacation house, but want to look a little more put-together in public.  I think that if it is going to take any longer than 5 minutes to be ready to walk out the door, or if you have more to do than put on your shoes/use the bathroom/grab your purse, you should let someone know. 
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: miranova on October 14, 2013, 10:09:33 PM
If a group's getting ready routine takes an hour and a half after a relaxed morning of sleeping in, then they don't really have grounds to complain about being held up for a whole fifteen minutes when they haven't actually used their words to indicate that they're getting close to being ready to actually leave, but rather expect that the early riser who is waiting for them will be attentively watching their routine and subtle body language clues to figure out exactly when they want to leave.

I do wonder if the group's reaction would've been the same if Alice had been getting ready when everyone else was and just happened to take 15 minutes longer than the others. I read the annoyance being less at the "you held us up for 15 minutes" and more at "you sat around watching tv while we got ready and then want to say you need more time?" It showed a lack of respect for everyone else, and I think that's what the rest of the group was reacting to.

Exactly.  You nailed it.  I can "go with the flow" if someone just happens to take a bit longer to get ready.  But sitting around watching TV until everyone else is 100% ready to go before you even get up to start getting ready?  I'd be very annoyed.  I don't buy that she needs to be a mind reader.  When 6 other people are up and actively getting ready, Alice doesn't need explicit instructions to understand that she should probably get up and get ready too.  I also agree that Bob was not giving Alice an exact time, he was giving an estimate of how long he thought it might take for people to get ready.  That wasn't a directive for Alice to wait until 11:30 to start getting ready.  If anything when traveling with a group you should try to be ready earlier rather than later.  It's just inconsiderate to wait until the last possible moment, even when all signs point to people getting ready earlier.
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: cabbageweevil on October 15, 2013, 04:49:51 AM
I've always been a stickler for punctuality, so I aim to be early whenever possible. When I was in middle school, one of our teachers told us "Early is on time, on time is late, late is unacceptable."

A bit O/T; but though I, also, am fairly obsessive about punctuality, and thus tend to be early for things -- I've always found that expression intensely annoying.  I gather that it originated with the military -- who have their idiosyncratic ways of doing things, which are suitable for their particular situation.  In most other departments of life, though, the expression has to me connotations of aggressive, bullying super-authoritarianism, which automatically put my back up.  I feel that civilian life can usually -- pretty much by definition -- be a bit more relaxed.

Re the thread in general: I fall in with what seem to be very broadly the majority views -- that communication could have been managed better than it was; and that it was a bit oblivious on Alice's part, to fail to notice the actions of the others, and to adjust or enquire accordingly. I'd reckon that she was being oblivious there, rather than deliberately PA; on the basis of "never ascribe to malice, what can be more easily explained by people 'just not getting it' ".
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: lowspark on October 15, 2013, 07:49:48 AM
I think the #1 issue here is that you have a large group vacationing together with no definite plan in place. So everyone just thinks that things will work out. If everyone sort of thinks the same way, that might work. If Alice had not been on the trip, it might have been fine.

But there was at least one person who needed to have a program by which to plan her day: Alice. And because of this the "play it by ear" type of process won't work for this group.

What Bob should have said when Alice asked about leaving time was "when everyone is ready to go, probably in a couple of hours." He may have been implying the "when everyone is ready to go" part but Alice either didn't infer that or she chose to ignore that implied part of the message.

I've been on vacation with people whose style differs from mine. It can be uncomfortable at best, and really miserable at worst. I learned my lesson from this. I won't go on vacation with people I don't know well enough to know if it will work. I also won't go unless someone is in charge. It might be me or it might be someone else. But an itinerary needs to be in place before the trip happens. It doesn't have to be to the minute, and it should be flexible.

But one thing is for sure, the plan for the next day should be communicated to everyone before bedtime each night.
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: Hmmmmm on October 15, 2013, 08:06:39 AM
If a group's getting ready routine takes an hour and a half after a relaxed morning of sleeping in, then they don't really have grounds to complain about being held up for a whole fifteen minutes when they haven't actually used their words to indicate that they're getting close to being ready to actually leave, but rather expect that the early riser who is waiting for them will be attentively watching their routine and subtle body language clues to figure out exactly when they want to leave.

I do wonder if the group's reaction would've been the same if Alice had been getting ready when everyone else was and just happened to take 15 minutes longer than the others. I read the annoyance being less at the "you held us up for 15 minutes" and more at "you sat around watching tv while we got ready and then want to say you need more time?" It showed a lack of respect for everyone else, and I think that's what the rest of the group was reacting to.

Exactly.  You nailed it.  I can "go with the flow" if someone just happens to take a bit longer to get ready.  But sitting around watching TV until everyone else is 100% ready to go before you even get up to start getting ready?  I'd be very annoyed.  I don't buy that she needs to be a mind reader.  When 6 other people are up and actively getting ready, Alice doesn't need explicit instructions to understand that she should probably get up and get ready too.  I also agree that Bob was not giving Alice an exact time, he was giving an estimate of how long he thought it might take for people to get ready.  That wasn't a directive for Alice to wait until 11:30 to start getting ready.  If anything when traveling with a group you should try to be ready earlier rather than later.  It's just inconsiderate to wait until the last possible moment, even when all signs point to people getting ready earlier.

If Alice KNEW that the group would leave as soon as everyone was ready. But we don't know that Alice understood that. She might have been a little clueless not picking up on ques from others that they were waiting around for her to finish her show so they could leave. But I don't see her actions as PA. Nor were the others clear that they'd leave earlier than the couple of hours stated. It was also a bad assumption on their part that Alice understood the unspoken plan.

If I tell my DH we'll leave in a couple of hours, he will wait till 1 hour and 55 mins to change shirts and put on shoes. So instead I say "We're leaving as soon as I'm dressed." Then he knows he has to be ready when I am.

Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: TootsNYC on October 15, 2013, 08:13:42 AM
I sort of don't care what words came out of Bob's mouth.
This is where I'm looking at it.

Quote
If I'm sitting around, and three other people are all getting ready, one by one coming and sitting with me, why in the world would I wait until everyone else is finished getting ready before even starting to get ready myself?

She was up and dressed, I could totally see where the other three people thought she was ready to go. The onus is on her to say (to herself or out loud) 'oh! everyone is almost ready, let me get ready too!' I think she was incredibly rude to wait around (tv program or not) until everyone was finished to even start getting ready - no matter how much time it takes her.

And this:
Quote
I do wonder if the group's reaction would've been the same if Alice had been getting ready when everyone else was and just happened to take 15 minutes longer than the others. I read the annoyance being less at the "you held us up for 15 minutes" and more at "you sat around watching tv while we got ready and then want to say you need more time?" It showed a lack of respect for everyone else, and I think that's what the rest of the group was reacting to.

Also, Alice is *not* the "more structured, less fluid" person in this scenario. A more structured person would have said, "No, WHEN are we leaving?" I don't know what she is--except perhaps truly passive aggressive (in the scientific sense of the word).
   
She used her passivity (lack of action) to control or strike back at the group (how much of that was intentional, I don't know, but that's what she did). Was she annoyed because she was up and they weren't, so she made sure they all waited on her later? Was she annoyed that she was being *told* the plans instead of being asked about her opinions or preferences?

Quote
I've been on vacation with people whose style differs from mine. It can be uncomfortable at best, and really miserable at worst. I learned my lesson from this. I won't go on vacation with people I don't know well enough to know if it will work. I also won't go unless someone is in charge. It might be me or it might be someone else. But an itinerary needs to be in place before the trip happens. It doesn't have to be to the minute, and it should be flexible.

I have as well--in a situation very like this in some ways. I was up, dressed, wanted to go to a late breakfast (i.e., 9pm); my travelmate intended to sleep until 11am.

it truly did stem from the fact that we vacation differently and did not discuss this.

The way it was different is that our "Alice" didn't send false signals or wait around until everyone else was ready to say, "I don't want to move that fast, I want to take me own sweet time, because I'm on vacation."
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: lowspark on October 15, 2013, 08:30:11 AM
Oh I agree that she was PA. I said that way back in my first post to this thread. But I still see her as the more structured one since she did try to pin down a schedule the night before.

In fact, reading through your post, Toots, it strikes me that she's not only PA, but she's cutting off her nose to spite her face. She's wasting her vacation time watching reruns on TV simply to exert control over the situation. In her place, I'd have gotten ready way in advance so that when everyone was finally ready, we could get going. Seems to me like noon is already a pretty late start time.

Based on some of the more recent posts, I'm wondering if I missed something. Once everyone (except Alice) was ready, did they then say, "OK let's go" or did they wait till she finished watching her TV show to speak up?

And another question, was she actually ready at or before noon?
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: Goosey on October 15, 2013, 08:31:15 AM
Whoa, it never would have occured to me that she was being PA. After all, the OP herself said she was surprised that they were leaving at that time. Why would it be any different for Alice?
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: Leafy on October 15, 2013, 08:35:58 AM
I'm sorry, but to me, probably leave in a couple of hours does not mean 'we will leave at noon'.

If I'm sitting around, and three other people are all getting ready, one by one coming and sitting with me, why in the world would I wait until everyone else is finished getting ready before even starting to get ready myself?

She was up and dressed, I could totally see where the other three people thought she was ready to go. The onus is on her to say (to herself or out loud) 'oh! everyone is almost ready, let me get ready too!' I think she was incredibly rude to wait around (tv program or not) until everyone was finished to even start getting ready - no matter how much time it takes her.

Why doesn't it? Isn't that literally what it means?

Well for me, once you add in the word "probably" (or "about" or "around") you are saying in no way shape or form should the next few words be taken as absolute literal. Plus the very nature of the wording "a couple of hours" is casual and vague, whereas "noon" is specific, so answering a question is a casual way indicates its a loose time frame not a specific time frame.


All you statements are general you.

But the point that I was making is that "a couple of hours" literally means "two hours". I mean, "a couple" isn't the same as "a few" or "several", which don't have specific values. A couple is two.

If Bob had said "around two hours" it would mean the same thing, so I don't think it was fair for us to assume that Alice would realise that he didn't mean some time close to two hours from when he said it. On the other hand, it was really frustrating that she wasn't ready, because we could have left right there and then.

"A couple" might literally mean "two" but once the qualifier "probably" is put in the sentence it can no longer mean "exactly two". The usage of "probably a couple" means "its likely to be two hours but it might not be, it might more or it might be less 'a couple' is a mid-range guesstimate".

Not to mention Bob was simply guessing on behalf of 6 other people, he wasn't actually an authority or in charge, right? And Alice knew that, that he was simply assuming a probable but not exact time frame, right? So for her to take his word, and his word alone, as the absolute exact departure time was not very logical or fair.

The bolded above is what has been bothering me. Alice asked Bob and he made a guess (based on the info given, it doesn't sound like he discussed it with everyone else) about when everyone might be ready to go. I don't see why Bob should have been responsible for giving Alice a specific time.

Group vacations that I have been on, we have always left earlier than planned if everyone is ready earlier. If I was in a group and 6 out of 7 people were ready to go and only one person (who had over 90 minutes to get ready) had not gotten ready, I would be annoyed with that person.
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: Another Sarah on October 15, 2013, 08:45:02 AM
I agree with Goosey, nothing about this strikes me as PA and I think Alice is starting to take an unnecessary bashing.

I still think that a group that did not specify a leaving time cannot be annoyed that someone isn't ready to leave when they are - however I also stand by my point that it would've been sensible, if not good manners, to be ready to leave early rather than later.
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: wolfie on October 15, 2013, 09:02:18 AM
To my way of thinking, Wolfie is saying that if it took *everyone* longer to get ready, rather than just one person. As in, it just took longer to get everyone through the shower, eaten breakfast, cleaned up etc. Not that they should all wait as long as it took for one person to finish watching whatever they wanted on TV. If Alice had wanted to watch TV for another two hours, I doubt anyone would think that 'having fluid plans' meant that they should all stay in until Alice's reruns were finished.

yes! that is it! I just couldn't think of a way to word this! If Alice took 30 minutes longer to get ready it wouldn't have bothered me cause we didn't have a set time to leave anyway. But the fact that she waited until everyone else is ready before even beginning to get ready that would have bothered me. In case A she just takes longer so no big deal, in case B we could have been on the road but Alice decided to hold everyone else up by not bothering to get ready until the very last minute.
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: lowspark on October 15, 2013, 09:03:17 AM
What makes me think "PA" is the following:

1, Alice tried to get a set time the night before. From OP: "Alice had been particularly keen to make firm plans, but everyone else had been quite non-committal"
2. She had all morning to get ready and decided to wait till the very last minute to do so.
3. When she asked Bob when they were leaving, she took his answer of "probably" and "a couple of hours" as literally to the minute.
4. She's on vacation with a group. Everyone in that group is dressed and ready to leave except for her. And yet, she sits there and watches reruns on TV instead of getting going.

What could possibly be her motivation for doing so except to inplicitly insist that they stick to the Noon departure time which clearly was soft ("probably") and was not communicated to everyone there?

And to be honest, even if the departure time was a pre-set time of noon, it's still rude to wait till the last minute to get ready. This is a group of several people, not just two or three. It's hard to predict how long everyone will take to get ready. It's best to get yourself ready as soon as the opportunity arises. If the bathroom is free when you get up, that's the time to take your shower, not 15 minutes before leaving time, unless that is actually the first time the bathroom is free.
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: VorFemme on October 15, 2013, 09:21:32 AM
I think the #1 issue here is that you have a large group vacationing together with no definite plan in place. So everyone just thinks that things will work out. If everyone sort of thinks the same way, that might work. If Alice had not been on the trip, it might have been fine.

***edited for length***

But one thing is for sure, the plan for the next day should be communicated to everyone before bedtime each night.

I love my husband.  But we have two different "styles".  Once I figured this out, it still has taken a while to learn how to phrase it so that he understands what I mean instead of thinking that I am giving general guidelines.

For example, he drives (in Houston traffic) for his commute - for less than ten minutes to go about three miles.  He bought our house near where he was going to be working to make sure that he had a short commute - average in the area is supposed to be closer to 45 minutes. So if he is getting ready to go anywhere, he plans to leave minimal time for the drive.  If it is "twenty minutes or so away" - he wants to leave just barely in time to get there, twenty minutes with maybe a minute or two of "cushion".

I don't work outside the home, but I'm the one who has gotten stuck in traffic due to an overturned semi (18 wheeler with a trailer making a long haul of goods from one location to another) for an hour or more.  I want to leave with at least five minutes "cushion" for a twenty minute drive and MORE for longer drives (maybe not the same 25% cushion - but more than two minutes early!).  But when I mention that we need to leave early - I get told that things won't go that bad this time....

When we meet people on vacation - I tend to over plan and possibly over communicate - but at least no one has been able to complain about "why didn't you TELL me that"? 

And the ILs canceled plans to go on vacation a while back because they couldn't bring their dog when VorGuy was insisting that no one would THINK of bringing their dog on a two or three day drive.   After the first trip where the dog got sick on my carpet and they still brought the dog on a second trip to our HOUSE (six or so hour drive) - I made sure to check on pet policies at our destination & told them what they were & the local kennel locations & prices months ahead of time. 
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: TurtleDove on October 15, 2013, 09:22:20 AM
1, Alice tried to get a set time the night before. From OP: "Alice had been particularly keen to make firm plans, but everyone else had been quite non-committal"

This is why I just can't understand why the group was upset it had to "wait" for Alice.  The group didn't care when they left.  The group was non-committal.
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: wolfie on October 15, 2013, 09:31:08 AM
1, Alice tried to get a set time the night before. From OP: "Alice had been particularly keen to make firm plans, but everyone else had been quite non-committal"

This is why I just can't understand why the group was upset it had to "wait" for Alice.  The group didn't care when they left.  The group was non-committal.

There is a big difference between "it takes Alive 20 minutes longer to get ready then anyone else" and "Alice doesn't bother starting to get ready until everyone else is ready". The first is fluid planning and the way it goes. The second makes it seem like Alice is thumbing her nose at the group.
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: Goosey on October 15, 2013, 09:32:24 AM
What makes me think "PA" is the following:

1, Alice tried to get a set time the night before. From OP: "Alice had been particularly keen to make firm plans, but everyone else had been quite non-committal"  So, the others didn't care until they wanted to go and then they had to go RIGHT THEN? I don't understand how her asking for a schedule is an indicator that she would be manipulative and PA.
2. She had all morning to get ready and decided to wait till the very last minute to do so. She wasn't aware it was last minute. As far as the OP and Alice were concerned, she still had time
3. When she asked Bob when they were leaving, she took his answer of "probably" and "a couple of hours" as literally to the minute. I think people are going with the "I would have understood exactly what he meant, so she should have, too!" arguement. Alice didn't know they were going when everyone was ready - neither did the OP. She thought she had a couple hours to relax.
4. She's on vacation with a group. Everyone in that group is dressed and ready to leave except for her. And yet, she sits there and watches reruns on TV instead of getting going. People were on the couch with her. She was relaxing and hanging out, thinking she had time.

What could possibly be her motivation for doing so except to inplicitly insist that they stick to the Noon departure time which clearly was soft ("probably") and was not communicated to everyone there? Because that's what she understood the plan to be. She was relaxing, hanging out. It's not like she was told "we're going to leave now!" and she said "one more episode!" As soon as she understood what was going on, she rushed to get ready.

And to be honest, even if the departure time was a pre-set time of noon, it's still rude to wait till the last minute to get ready. This is a group of several people, not just two or three. It's hard to predict how long everyone will take to get ready. It's best to get yourself ready as soon as the opportunity arises. If the bathroom is free when you get up, that's the time to take your shower, not 15 minutes before leaving time, unless that is actually the first time the bathroom is free.

I do agree it's best, logistically, to get ready as soon as you can. But, I don't think she was being manipulative or PA - I think she just didn't understand what was going on (the OP didn't either) and wasn't thinking too well. I also don't think that 15 minutes-half an hour is anything to get worried about and griping at Alice for it was rude too. They could have just said, "Hey, just for future reference, we should all get ready as early as possible."
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: lowspark on October 15, 2013, 09:42:09 AM
To reply to Goosey, my list was to be taken as a whole. In other words, it wasn't just each of those things that points to PA for me, it was the combination of all of them together. Based on my life experience, the combination of everyone's actions, individally (including Alice) and as a collective group, points to Alice being PA. And that is not to say that the rest of the group is blameless.

I can understand the other point of view, I just don't agree with it. And I understand not everyone agrees with my take on it either. That's ok.

Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: Winterlight on October 15, 2013, 09:51:55 AM
I agree with Goosey, nothing about this strikes me as PA and I think Alice is starting to take an unnecessary bashing.

I still think that a group that did not specify a leaving time cannot be annoyed that someone isn't ready to leave when they are - however I also stand by my point that it would've been sensible, if not good manners, to be ready to leave early rather than later.

Agreed. I'd have gotten ready early, but that's me. A group that wants to be loosey-goosey about when they leave isn't really in a position to complain when the person who tried to set a time sticks to what they were given.
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: Victim Of Fate on October 15, 2013, 12:52:17 PM
Wow, lots more responses!

I feel I should make a few extra points of clarification, particularly in defence of Alice, who is - you know - one of my best friends!

1) I don't think Alice was being genuinely PA, which is to say I don't think she was trying to "punish" the rest of the group or set her own agenda. However, I do think that she was probably a little annoyed that nobody else seemed to be bothered about making a plan, and even when she noticed people were getting ready, she might have decided that she wasn't going to change her plans unless we told her that we had a start time in mind. However, it's equally possible that she thought that we were just getting ready for the day. As I said, we weren't standing there with coats and boots, we were for the most part lounging around on the sofa too.

2) Bob would definitely not have used "probably a couple of hours" to mean anything other than "probably two hours", but I think he probably meant to imply "because that's my guess for how long it will take us all to get ready".

3) Bob and Alice were the drivers, if that makes a difference. And Bob tends to be the de facto organiser on trips like this, which is why his voice would carry a little authority.

What I was interested in is whether or not Alice should have got up and ready when she noticed that other people were likely to be ready early, and it seems that most people do think that. However, should we have explained to Alice that we were planning on leaving as soon as everyone was ready, or do you think we were justified in letting our actions do the talking, so to speak?
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: Dorrie78 on October 15, 2013, 01:08:02 PM
Wow, lots more responses!

I feel I should make a few extra points of clarification, particularly in defence of Alice, who is - you know - one of my best friends!

1) I don't think Alice was being genuinely PA, which is to say I don't think she was trying to "punish" the rest of the group or set her own agenda. However, I do think that she was probably a little annoyed that nobody else seemed to be bothered about making a plan, and even when she noticed people were getting ready, she might have decided that she wasn't going to change her plans unless we told her that we had a start time in mind. However, it's equally possible that she thought that we were just getting ready for the day. As I said, we weren't standing there with coats and boots, we were for the most part lounging around on the sofa too.

2) Bob would definitely not have used "probably a couple of hours" to mean anything other than "probably two hours", but I think he probably meant to imply "because that's my guess for how long it will take us all to get ready".

3) Bob and Alice were the drivers, if that makes a difference. And Bob tends to be the de facto organiser on trips like this, which is why his voice would carry a little authority.

What I was interested in is whether or not Alice should have got up and ready when she noticed that other people were likely to be ready early, and it seems that most people do think that. However, should we have explained to Alice that we were planning on leaving as soon as everyone was ready, or do you think we were justified in letting our actions do the talking, so to speak?
In response to your first point, I think that the first possibility you list for why Alice did what she did is the very definition of passive aggressive. I'm with the others on this thread who are saying that once she saw people getting ready for the day, she should have started doing it herself. So yes, I do think she should have done that, but since she didn't I think that that answers your final question - you should have told her that you were leaving as soon as everyone is ready, because clearly she isn't paying attention to your actions - or at least she isn't reacting to your actions in a rational, non-PA way.

This whole situation would annoy me tremendously - all parts of it. That no one will make a definitive plan AND that the one person who wants a definitive plan waits until everyone is ready to go to start getting ready.
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: Hmmmmm on October 15, 2013, 01:10:01 PM
Wow, lots more responses!

I feel I should make a few extra points of clarification, particularly in defence of Alice, who is - you know - one of my best friends!

1) I don't think Alice was being genuinely PA, which is to say I don't think she was trying to "punish" the rest of the group or set her own agenda. However, I do think that she was probably a little annoyed that nobody else seemed to be bothered about making a plan, and even when she noticed people were getting ready, she might have decided that she wasn't going to change her plans unless we told her that we had a start time in mind. However, it's equally possible that she thought that we were just getting ready for the day. As I said, we weren't standing there with coats and boots, we were for the most part lounging around on the sofa too.

2) Bob would definitely not have used "probably a couple of hours" to mean anything other than "probably two hours", but I think he probably meant to imply "because that's my guess for how long it will take us all to get ready".

3) Bob and Alice were the drivers, if that makes a difference. And Bob tends to be the de facto organiser on trips like this, which is why his voice would carry a little authority.

What I was interested in is whether or not Alice should have got up and ready when she noticed that other people were likely to be ready early, and it seems that most people do think that. However, should we have explained to Alice that we were planning on leaving as soon as everyone was ready, or do you think we were justified in letting our actions do the talking, so to speak?

With a group that size, I don't believe in letting your actions to the talking. Everyone inteprets actions differently. You guys all misinterpreted Alice's actions... up, dressed, watching TV, must be ready to go...so why should we assume Alice is any better in figuring out what other's actions mean when she was told 2 hours. If she hadn't been told a couple of hours but everyone else was getting up and dressed, then I think she should have clarified the plans.
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: blarg314 on October 15, 2013, 01:16:31 PM
However, should we have explained to Alice that we were planning on leaving as soon as everyone was ready, or do you think we were justified in letting our actions do the talking, so to speak?

I think that's the key. If you wanted the definite plans to be "as soon as the rest of us are ready to leave - probably in a couple of hours but less if we get ready sooner" then you should have said that directly, rather than expecting Alice to pick up on the transition between lounging around the hotel room while slowly getting ready and let's leave right now - 15 minute from now is not acceptable. Alternatively, the rest of you  could have picked up on the fact that Alice was almost, but not quite, ready, and given her a 15 minute warning that the rest of you were finally ready to go.

15 minutes for the final stage of getting ready (going to the washroom, putting on makeup, getting your purse) is really not that long compared to the couple of hours it took for everyone else to get ready to go. I would assume that if the mode were relaxed, lounging around the hotel room while slowly getting organized for the day (rather than getting ready quickly so you can get going), than an extra 15 minutes to finish watching a TV show would not be a problem.
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: MariaE on October 15, 2013, 01:27:00 PM
I definitely don't think Alice was PA. Speaking from my own experience she might not have realized that people were getting ready to go, rather than just getting dressed. My thought process in her shoes would be "Excellent, people are coming to watch TV with me, how cozy :) *Looks at watch* Cool, I still have time, I can finish this episode and still be ready in plenty of time."

So clueless at worst. Definitely neither rude nor PA. Don't think the others were rude either though, depending on how they expressed their frustration.
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: Winterlight on October 15, 2013, 01:36:33 PM
I definitely don't think Alice was PA. Speaking from my own experience she might not have realized that people were getting ready to go, rather than just getting dressed. My thought process in her shoes would be "Excellent, people are coming to watch TV with me, how cozy :) *Looks at watch* Cool, I still have time, I can finish this episode and still be ready in plenty of time."

So clueless at worst. Definitely neither rude nor PA. Don't think the others were rude either though, depending on how they expressed their frustration.

Agreed.
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: Judah on October 15, 2013, 01:56:08 PM
... should we have explained to Alice that we were planning on leaving as soon as everyone was ready, or do you think we were justified in letting our actions do the talking, so to speak?

I don't think it's ever okay to expect someone to read your mind. If you want something understood, use words. Clear, non-ambiguous words.
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: TurtleDove on October 15, 2013, 02:04:48 PM
... should we have explained to Alice that we were planning on leaving as soon as everyone was ready, or do you think we were justified in letting our actions do the talking, so to speak?

I don't think it's ever okay to expect someone to read your mind. If you want something understood, use words. Clear, non-ambiguous words.

This.  Also, if the plan truly was to leave when "everyone" was ready, the group should have happily waitied until everyone - including Alice - was ready.  We don't know why everyone else needed several hours to get ready, so I don't see why people are questioning why Alice wanted to finish watching her show, especially when it seemed others in the group were watching it with her.  If there was a set time prior to noon that people wanted Alice ready, I get the sense she absolutely would have been.  But there wasn't.  Just whenever. 
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: Lynn2000 on October 15, 2013, 03:22:35 PM
With a group that size, I don't believe in letting your actions to the talking. Everyone inteprets actions differently. You guys all misinterpreted Alice's actions... up, dressed, watching TV, must be ready to go...so why should we assume Alice is any better in figuring out what other's actions mean when she was told 2 hours. If she hadn't been told a couple of hours but everyone else was getting up and dressed, then I think she should have clarified the plans.

IMO, this sums up the entire situation. :)
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: CakeEater on October 15, 2013, 03:54:54 PM
... should we have explained to Alice that we were planning on leaving as soon as everyone was ready, or do you think we were justified in letting our actions do the talking, so to speak?

I don't think it's ever okay to expect someone to read your mind. If you want something understood, use words. Clear, non-ambiguous words.

This.  Also, if the plan truly was to leave when "everyone" was ready, the group should have happily waitied until everyone - including Alice - was ready.  We don't know why everyone else needed several hours to get ready, so I don't see why people are questioning why Alice wanted to finish watching her show, especially when it seemed others in the group were watching it with her.  If there was a set time prior to noon that people wanted Alice ready, I get the sense she absolutely would have been.  But there wasn't.  Just whenever.

But how far does this go? Should 6 people have waited until Alice had painted her toenails, finished reading her book, prepared and eaten a 4 course lunch and not left the house until 3 o'clock? Clearly that's ridiculous. The idea that there's no rush but we'll go when everyone's ready implies that everyone should *get* ready, just not at breakneck speed, like they might have to if they needed to leave the house at 7.30am.

And as others have said, it's polite to make sure, when you're travelling with a large group, to get yourself ready sooner rather than later, just so you don't hold everyone up waiting for you.

I think there was a mis-communication here, but I don't think that it's necessary to use clear, unambiguous words to tell 7 adults that they should get ready to leave the house as soon as they can when the plan is to leave the house. That's just common sense.
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: TurtleDove on October 15, 2013, 04:26:53 PM
I think there was a mis-communication here, but I don't think that it's necessary to use clear, unambiguous words to tell 7 adults that they should get ready to leave the house as soon as they can when the plan is to leave the house. That's just common sense.

I think this is why it is best to have a set time for when you expect people to be ready.  "As soon as they can" is so vague as to be without real meaning.  If the house is on fire, I can be ready to leave in less than a second.  If it's a gala event, I might give myself an hour to play around with my hair and makeup (for what it's worth, that time is generally wasted :) ).  With people waking up at different times with different agendas and no real push to get out the door, "as soon as you can" would be meaningless to me.  Well, that, and I would have pushed for a set time becuase otherwise I would have slept in and gotten a good workout in because "as soon as you can be ready" for me includes 1.5 hours of working out.  I guess my overall point is that we are not all going to agree on what is common sense. To me, common sense would have been to say, "we want to leave by 11:30 a.m." if that is what people wanted to do.
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: TootsNYC on October 15, 2013, 04:52:00 PM
Wow, lots more responses!


1) I don't think Alice was being genuinely PA, which is to say I don't think she was trying to "punish" the rest of the group or set her own agenda. However, I do think that she was probably a little annoyed that nobody else seemed to be bothered about making a plan, and even when she noticed people were getting ready, she might have decided that she wasn't going to change her plans unless we told her that we had a start time in mind. However, it's equally possible that she thought that we were just getting ready for the day. As I said, we weren't standing there with coats and boots, we were for the most part lounging around on the sofa too.


She may not have been being *intentionally* PA, but the bolded *is* the classic, textbook definition of passive aggressive.

Passive aggression is not always conscious, as well.
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: CakeEater on October 15, 2013, 09:43:15 PM
I think there was a mis-communication here, but I don't think that it's necessary to use clear, unambiguous words to tell 7 adults that they should get ready to leave the house as soon as they can when the plan is to leave the house. That's just common sense.

I think this is why it is best to have a set time for when you expect people to be ready.  "As soon as they can" is so vague as to be without real meaning.  If the house is on fire, I can be ready to leave in less than a second.  If it's a gala event, I might give myself an hour to play around with my hair and makeup (for what it's worth, that time is generally wasted :) ).  With people waking up at different times with different agendas and no real push to get out the door, "as soon as you can" would be meaningless to me.  Well, that, and I would have pushed for a set time becuase otherwise I would have slept in and gotten a good workout in because "as soon as you can be ready" for me includes 1.5 hours of working out.  I guess my overall point is that we are not all going to agree on what is common sense. To me, common sense would have been to say, "we want to leave by 11:30 a.m." if that is what people wanted to do.

Well yes, I would prefer that as well, being a scheduler myself.

Assuming there's no extra hour and a half required in my getting ready schedule, though, I would think most people could wake, eat breakfast, shower, dress, pack a day pack for sightseeing etc in about an hour. Seven people would take 'a couple of hours' as Bob suggested.

But if getting ready to you implies an extra 1 1/2 hours to do anything that you know the others won't be doing, then I might push for a more exact time. I'd ask the others what time they were planning to be awake, and I'd get up and hour and a half before them. A ballpark figure would be enough, I'd have thought. It would be my responsibility to make sure I was ready at about the same time as everyone else.

In any case, that wasn't the case here. Alice wasn't doing any 'getting ready' - she didn't have anything that required extra time than the others.

Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: Hmmmmm on October 16, 2013, 08:37:20 AM
... should we have explained to Alice that we were planning on leaving as soon as everyone was ready, or do you think we were justified in letting our actions do the talking, so to speak?

I don't think it's ever okay to expect someone to read your mind. If you want something understood, use words. Clear, non-ambiguous words.

This.  Also, if the plan truly was to leave when "everyone" was ready, the group should have happily waitied until everyone - including Alice - was ready.  We don't know why everyone else needed several hours to get ready, so I don't see why people are questioning why Alice wanted to finish watching her show, especially when it seemed others in the group were watching it with her.  If there was a set time prior to noon that people wanted Alice ready, I get the sense she absolutely would have been.  But there wasn't.  Just whenever.

But how far does this go? Should 6 people have waited until Alice had painted her toenails, finished reading her book, prepared and eaten a 4 course lunch and not left the house until 3 o'clock? Clearly that's ridiculous. The idea that there's no rush but we'll go when everyone's ready implies that everyone should *get* ready, just not at breakneck speed, like they might have to if they needed to leave the house at 7.30am.

And as others have said, it's polite to make sure, when you're travelling with a large group, to get yourself ready sooner rather than later, just so you don't hold everyone up waiting for you.

I think there was a mis-communication here, but I don't think that it's necessary to use clear, unambiguous words to tell 7 adults that they should get ready to leave the house as soon as they can when the plan is to leave the house. That's just common sense.

But it was never said that "we will go when everyone is ready."  It was said in a couple of hours.
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: AnnaJ on October 16, 2013, 11:13:21 AM
Probably because I've done this myself (not the people waiting part), I was thinking that maybe Alice got mostly ready - shower, hair dried/styled, sorted out her clothes - before everyone else got up, then decided to have some down time.  When everyone else was getting ready she didn't worry about it since a) Bob had indicated it would be a couple of hours before they left, and b) she know it would only take her 15 minute to finish up (make-up, outside clothes, whatever) so she waited while everyone else showered, etc. 

The fact that, by Bob's original statement, there were 30 minutes left and she was ready in 15 minutes - from the OP's update - I go with poor communication.  OP, was it even possible for that many people to get ready at the same time, given bathroom/dressing space?
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: wolfie on October 16, 2013, 11:14:59 AM
I am wondering what happened the next day? Did you have more clear cut communications? Set an actual leave time? Basically - did you guys work this out?
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: CakeEater on October 17, 2013, 04:25:33 AM
... should we have explained to Alice that we were planning on leaving as soon as everyone was ready, or do you think we were justified in letting our actions do the talking, so to speak?

I don't think it's ever okay to expect someone to read your mind. If you want something understood, use words. Clear, non-ambiguous words.

This.  Also, if the plan truly was to leave when "everyone" was ready, the group should have happily waitied until everyone - including Alice - was ready.  We don't know why everyone else needed several hours to get ready, so I don't see why people are questioning why Alice wanted to finish watching her show, especially when it seemed others in the group were watching it with her.  If there was a set time prior to noon that people wanted Alice ready, I get the sense she absolutely would have been.  But there wasn't.  Just whenever.

But how far does this go? Should 6 people have waited until Alice had painted her toenails, finished reading her book, prepared and eaten a 4 course lunch and not left the house until 3 o'clock? Clearly that's ridiculous. The idea that there's no rush but we'll go when everyone's ready implies that everyone should *get* ready, just not at breakneck speed, like they might have to if they needed to leave the house at 7.30am.

And as others have said, it's polite to make sure, when you're travelling with a large group, to get yourself ready sooner rather than later, just so you don't hold everyone up waiting for you.

I think there was a mis-communication here, but I don't think that it's necessary to use clear, unambiguous words to tell 7 adults that they should get ready to leave the house as soon as they can when the plan is to leave the house. That's just common sense.

But it was never said that "we will go when everyone is ready."  It was said in a couple of hours.

I think the 'because that's how long I anticipate it will take everyone to get ready' part at the end of Bob's sentence was implied.
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: Hmmmmm on October 17, 2013, 08:37:00 AM
... should we have explained to Alice that we were planning on leaving as soon as everyone was ready, or do you think we were justified in letting our actions do the talking, so to speak?

I don't think it's ever okay to expect someone to read your mind. If you want something understood, use words. Clear, non-ambiguous words.

This.  Also, if the plan truly was to leave when "everyone" was ready, the group should have happily waitied until everyone - including Alice - was ready.  We don't know why everyone else needed several hours to get ready, so I don't see why people are questioning why Alice wanted to finish watching her show, especially when it seemed others in the group were watching it with her.  If there was a set time prior to noon that people wanted Alice ready, I get the sense she absolutely would have been.  But there wasn't.  Just whenever.

But how far does this go? Should 6 people have waited until Alice had painted her toenails, finished reading her book, prepared and eaten a 4 course lunch and not left the house until 3 o'clock? Clearly that's ridiculous. The idea that there's no rush but we'll go when everyone's ready implies that everyone should *get* ready, just not at breakneck speed, like they might have to if they needed to leave the house at 7.30am.

And as others have said, it's polite to make sure, when you're travelling with a large group, to get yourself ready sooner rather than later, just so you don't hold everyone up waiting for you.

I think there was a mis-communication here, but I don't think that it's necessary to use clear, unambiguous words to tell 7 adults that they should get ready to leave the house as soon as they can when the plan is to leave the house. That's just common sense.

But it was never said that "we will go when everyone is ready."  It was said in a couple of hours.

I think the 'because that's how long I anticipate it will take everyone to get ready' part at the end of Bob's sentence was implied.

I don't think it was implied at all. His reason for saying a couple of hours could be based on timing of getting to the place.
Such as.... if we leave in a couple of hours, we'll get there around 1 when the morning crowd is leaving for lunch, spend a few hours, then stop at that cool beach bar for an afternoon drink.
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: Victim Of Fate on October 17, 2013, 09:25:33 AM
I am wondering what happened the next day? Did you have more clear cut communications? Set an actual leave time? Basically - did you guys work this out?

That was really the only day that we had an issue like this, and I think both sides were probably a bit more flexible after that. But what is interesting is that a few weeks later this got brought up, which is really what compelled me to see what people here thought.

Basically, at a party, a few of the people from the holiday made a joke about Alice needing to get ready first before we did something at the party (I would not call this rude in and of itself, as we are all very close friends). Alice, who sensed that we might have made this joke before (which we had a couple of times), then responded that she had been "100% in the right".

She basically said that she had been told a time to get ready by, met that time, but was accused of being late because we all just decided to leave once we were ready. When someone asked her if she had noticed other people getting ready, she said "yes, but presumably you would have had a shower and got dressed even if we weren't going anywhere. I thought that's what you were doing." She also said that if we'd told her that we were going ASAP, she wouldn't have made the decision to watch TV, but that we didn't say that.

That's why I do have a lot of sympathy for her in this situation. Like I said, I thought the plan was to leave at 12. I think that Bob meant "when everyone's ready" in hindsight, but I didn't infer that at the time. I thought Alice was a bit off for just sitting there watching TV while everyone else was getting ready, but from her claimed point of view, she was enjoying a TV show, safe in the knowledge that she had plenty of time at the end, and all of a sudden people were suggesting we leave right away.

There may have been some passive aggressiveness on her part, as I suspect that she may have suspected that we might want to leave when the show was over and she didn't tell us that she wouldn't be able to meet that timetable. Once other people had started watching as well, I can see why she wouldn't really want to get up halfway through. My guess is that she didn't want to ask outright and risk missing the end of the show if we said that we wanted to leave ASAP. But, that's only a suspicion on my part, and it may well be that she thought she had time - and this is certainly what her defence was.

To answer an earlier question, there were three bathrooms and five bedrooms, so while we couldn't all get ready simultaneously, there was more than enough time and space for us to get ready in an hour and a half.
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: KenveeB on October 17, 2013, 09:49:34 AM
She took a "probably" as gospel and intentionally ignored all evidence to the contrary. I don't think her mistake deserved more than mild annoyance, but it was definitely HER mistake. She only makes herself look worse by insisting now she was "100% right."
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: Victim Of Fate on October 17, 2013, 11:27:54 AM
She took a "probably" as gospel and intentionally ignored all evidence to the contrary. I don't think her mistake deserved more than mild annoyance, but it was definitely HER mistake. She only makes herself look worse by insisting now she was "100% right."

Right, first of all, I should point out that her claim of being "100% in the right" was said with a smile, and that is how we talk to one another. I say this because it probably sounds ruder than it was in plain text.

But in what sense was it "her" mistake? I mean, Bob did say it would be a couple of hours, and then it wasn't a couple of hours.

My reason for posting this was more to see if people thought that she should have changed her behaviour to account for everyone else or if we should have been more explicit about the fact that we were planning on leaving as soon as possible (and I know that answer to that is "both", but who was the onus on?). But is was certainly the case that the expectation was that we'd leave at 12, and nobody outright said it could be earlier depending on when people were ready - we all just assumed that and she didn't.
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: wolfie on October 17, 2013, 11:33:10 AM
I guess for me I always assume we would leave earlier if everyone is ready because what's the point of just sitting around for 30 min just to meet an arbitrary time when everyone is good to go now. Unless it is an appointment where you have to be there at say 3:00 so it's either sit here or sit there - in which case sit here is preferable. But it doesn't sound like that was the case.
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: Victim Of Fate on October 17, 2013, 11:54:22 AM
I guess for me I always assume we would leave earlier if everyone is ready because what's the point of just sitting around for 30 min just to meet an arbitrary time when everyone is good to go now. Unless it is an appointment where you have to be there at say 3:00 so it's either sit here or sit there - in which case sit here is preferable. But it doesn't sound like that was the case.

Well, in fairness, we were on vacation. Alice's point was that she wanted to relax, so upon being told a time (and I think it's fair to say that a time was pretty much stated, even if Bob only meant it as a guideline), she wanted to spend the next two hours in a way that was enjoyable for her and met the timings which she understood to have been set.
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: ladyknight1 on October 17, 2013, 12:03:17 PM
I think that the flexible group's dependence on non-verbal communication to signal Alice that the time they would leave was approaching was ambiguous at best. Communication is clearly flawed in this situation. Alice attempted to get clarity, and was dismissed.

I don't think Alice was PA in any way.
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: VorFemme on October 17, 2013, 12:19:48 PM
There are people who take the attitude that *they* only need a few minutes to get ready, so they wait until the last possible minute to get ready.  If it takes them five extra minutes loner to get ready than they plan, it may be that they leave a minute or two late *or* only a minute early.

There are people who want to be ready early so they can relax a little while before leaving - or wait on those who take a little longer.  They may be married to someone in the first group, in my experience.

Then there are those who don't seem to grasp that there is a schedule, whether written, spoken, or implied unless there is someone screaming at them to hurry up, we should have either left already or we should already be there.  At least Alice wasn't in that group...

When we go with a group, it is nice to know which types are in the group...but it isn't always possible to tell if someone who is punctual in work situations takes a more relaxed attitude in social ones...or the other way round, if they want to cram as much fun into their day as possible!
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: citadelle on October 17, 2013, 12:52:22 PM
It seems clear from the clarifications provided that Alice knew that folks were getting ready to go, but decided that she was going to continue watching television until she was specifically told otherwise, or until the "couple hours" had passed. It seems like a deliberate misreading on her part in order to make a point, and that *is* passive aggressive. That is where she's at fault in my opinion, in sticking obtusely to the "letter of the law" rather than acting on what was obvious.
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: KenveeB on October 17, 2013, 01:12:40 PM
She took a "probably" as gospel and intentionally ignored all evidence to the contrary. I don't think her mistake deserved more than mild annoyance, but it was definitely HER mistake. She only makes herself look worse by insisting now she was "100% right."

Right, first of all, I should point out that her claim of being "100% in the right" was said with a smile, and that is how we talk to one another. I say this because it probably sounds ruder than it was in plain text.

But in what sense was it "her" mistake? I mean, Bob did say it would be a couple of hours, and then it wasn't a couple of hours.

My reason for posting this was more to see if people thought that she should have changed her behaviour to account for everyone else or if we should have been more explicit about the fact that we were planning on leaving as soon as possible (and I know that answer to that is "both", but who was the onus on?). But is was certainly the case that the expectation was that we'd leave at 12, and nobody outright said it could be earlier depending on when people were ready - we all just assumed that and she didn't.

As I said, her mistake was taking a "probably" as the gospel truth and ignoring what was actually happening. Leaving aside the question of whether she should've taken Bob's word alone as the group decision, Bob didn't give a definite time. If he'd said "we're leaving at noon," then you could take that as "we're leaving as noon." But "probably a couple of hours" is vague on both the actual amount of time and whether it's even a definite decision. Then she decided to stick firm to that indefinite decision even when everyone else was obviously getting ready around her and not saying a word about not actually being ready. That was a mistake, and it was 100% hers. The rest of the group was also mistaken about her actually being ready, but I don't think that was 100% the group's because it was based off her own communication that she was ready by looking ready and sitting around watching reruns while everyone else was getting ready. So mistakes on both parts, but only one that I think was entirely the one person's fault.
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: wyliefool on October 23, 2013, 11:58:15 AM
I'M on team Alice, mainly because ppl who can't be bothered making plans, and dilly dally around, then suddenly are all 'OK it's time to leave nownownowchopchop !! get on my Very Last Nerve.
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: blarg314 on October 23, 2013, 08:16:58 PM
I'M on team Alice, mainly because ppl who can't be bothered making plans, and dilly dally around, then suddenly are all 'OK it's time to leave nownownowchopchop !! get on my Very Last Nerve.

That's how I feel. I get the impression that the rest of the group had no problem taking ages to get ready in a relaxed fashion while Alice was waiting, but as soon as they were ready they got snotty about an extra fifteen minutes.

If I were Alice, I'd seriously consider travelling with other people.
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: secretrebel on October 24, 2013, 02:13:24 AM
She basically said that she had been told a time to get ready by, met that time, but was accused of being late because we all just decided to leave once we were ready. When someone asked her if she had noticed other people getting ready, she said "yes, but presumably you would have had a shower and got dressed even if we weren't going anywhere. I thought that's what you were doing." She also said that if we'd told her that we were going ASAP, she wouldn't have made the decision to watch TV, but that we didn't say that


Interesting that Alice would assume that everyone else showering was just a normal part of getting up rather than specifically getting ready to go when that's not what she did herself.
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: AnnaJ on October 24, 2013, 09:56:42 AM
She basically said that she had been told a time to get ready by, met that time, but was accused of being late because we all just decided to leave once we were ready. When someone asked her if she had noticed other people getting ready, she said "yes, but presumably you would have had a shower and got dressed even if we weren't going anywhere. I thought that's what you were doing." She also said that if we'd told her that we were going ASAP, she wouldn't have made the decision to watch TV, but that we didn't say that


Interesting that Alice would assume that everyone else showering was just a normal part of getting up rather than specifically getting ready to go when that's not what she did herself.

I'm confused by the comment in bold - my impression is that Alice did shower as part of her 'getting up' ritual so I don't understand.  I'm basing this on the fact that the OP said she took less than a half hour (maybe 15 minutes?) to get ready to go out, and I'm assuming she was doing last minute things like changing, or makeup, or just gathering things together, so I could be wrong about it.
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: DragonKitty on October 24, 2013, 03:38:49 PM
It does make me wonder, how many people here put on different clothes than what they are figuring to wear the rest of the day?

Well, except for gardening, when I get home from work, and plan to work in the garden and do messy things, then I will change out of my work clothes, and in to clothes that I don't care if i get dirty/messy.

But other than that, once I put on my clothes in the morning, I'm planning on wearing them the rest of the day.  That includes weekends.  So why did she have to change clothes?
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: Kiwichick on October 24, 2013, 06:44:37 PM
I dress like a crazy bag lady when I'm at home, if I have to leave the house I have to change.
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: squeakers on October 24, 2013, 06:45:21 PM
It does make me wonder, how many people here put on different clothes than what they are figuring to wear the rest of the day?

Well, except for gardening, when I get home from work, and plan to work in the garden and do messy things, then I will change out of my work clothes, and in to clothes that I don't care if i get dirty/messy.

But other than that, once I put on my clothes in the morning, I'm planning on wearing them the rest of the day.  That includes weekends.  So why did she have to change clothes?

Maybe she was wearing a lounge set? Clothes specifically for sitting around the house and not really meant for going out in public.  I do that but my clothes are called "pajamas"  :D
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: Victim Of Fate on October 24, 2013, 07:17:01 PM
So, I think Alice needed to get something from her car quite early in the morning. As a result, she threw on an old t-shirt and some jeans, and once she had collected what she needed, she remained in her t-shirt and jeans without having showered. Her intention was to have a shower and get changed into fresh clothes before leaving. We all assumed that she had done this already.
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: secretrebel on October 25, 2013, 07:10:02 AM
She basically said that she had been told a time to get ready by, met that time, but was accused of being late because we all just decided to leave once we were ready. When someone asked her if she had noticed other people getting ready, she said "yes, but presumably you would have had a shower and got dressed even if we weren't going anywhere. I thought that's what you were doing." She also said that if we'd told her that we were going ASAP, she wouldn't have made the decision to watch TV, but that we didn't say that


Interesting that Alice would assume that everyone else showering was just a normal part of getting up rather than specifically getting ready to go when that's not what she did herself.

I'm confused by the comment in bold - my impression is that Alice did shower as part of her 'getting up' ritual so I don't understand.  I'm basing this on the fact that the OP said she took less than a half hour (maybe 15 minutes?) to get ready to go out, and I'm assuming she was doing last minute things like changing, or makeup, or just gathering things together, so I could be wrong about it.

In the OP it was explained that Alice got up and threw on some casual clothes and (I think it was later stated) hadn't showered or put on the clothes she intended to wear to go out.

Later, after the holiday, Alice told the OP that she hadn't realised everyone else getting showered and dressed meant they were getting ready to go out. Alice said "presumably you would have had a shower and got dressed even if we weren't going anywhere. I thought that's what you were doing."

But Alice herself didn't shower and get dressed when first getting up. So she assumed that everyone else's ablutions and dressing were part of normal behaviour when this was not her own behaviour. This makes me side eye what Alice actually was thinking about everyone else getting ready.
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: MariaE on October 25, 2013, 07:46:04 AM
She basically said that she had been told a time to get ready by, met that time, but was accused of being late because we all just decided to leave once we were ready. When someone asked her if she had noticed other people getting ready, she said "yes, but presumably you would have had a shower and got dressed even if we weren't going anywhere. I thought that's what you were doing." She also said that if we'd told her that we were going ASAP, she wouldn't have made the decision to watch TV, but that we didn't say that


Interesting that Alice would assume that everyone else showering was just a normal part of getting up rather than specifically getting ready to go when that's not what she did herself.

I'm confused by the comment in bold - my impression is that Alice did shower as part of her 'getting up' ritual so I don't understand.  I'm basing this on the fact that the OP said she took less than a half hour (maybe 15 minutes?) to get ready to go out, and I'm assuming she was doing last minute things like changing, or makeup, or just gathering things together, so I could be wrong about it.

In the OP it was explained that Alice got up and threw on some casual clothes and (I think it was later stated) hadn't showered or put on the clothes she intended to wear to go out.

Later, after the holiday, Alice told the OP that she hadn't realised everyone else getting showered and dressed meant they were getting ready to go out. Alice said "presumably you would have had a shower and got dressed even if we weren't going anywhere. I thought that's what you were doing."

But Alice herself didn't shower and get dressed when first getting up. So she assumed that everyone else's ablutions and dressing were part of normal behaviour when this was not her own behaviour. This makes me side eye what Alice actually was thinking about everyone else getting ready.

I understand what you're saying, but I can also understand Alice's actions from a completely non-PA point of view, as I could see myself doing something similar. Let me try to explain my theoretical thought-process if I were in Alice's shoes.

- I wake up early and realize I have to get something in the car. I'm not really mentally ready to get ready for the day so I just throw on some random clothes - possibly even yesterday's clothes - intending to get washed and changed later.
- People start getting showered and getting ready for the day - same as I would have done if I hadn't had to get up early and thus got dressed before I felt like taking a shower.
- Bob tells me that we'll leave at noon - at least, that's how I understand it - meaning I have plenty of time to get ready.
- People get impatient because I'm not ready, whereas I didn't know they were getting ready-ready instead of just ready-for-the-day ready.

If you've never had to get up and do something that required clothes before you felt ready to take a shower, then this thought-process might not make any sense to you at all.  But I could so easily see myself in Alice's shoes, and see nothing PA or suspect about it.
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: Victim Of Fate on October 25, 2013, 09:44:28 AM
In the OP it was explained that Alice got up and threw on some casual clothes and (I think it was later stated) hadn't showered or put on the clothes she intended to wear to go out.

Later, after the holiday, Alice told the OP that she hadn't realised everyone else getting showered and dressed meant they were getting ready to go out. Alice said "presumably you would have had a shower and got dressed even if we weren't going anywhere. I thought that's what you were doing."

But Alice herself didn't shower and get dressed when first getting up. So she assumed that everyone else's ablutions and dressing were part of normal behaviour when this was not her own behaviour. This makes me side eye what Alice actually was thinking about everyone else getting ready.

I think Alice's point was that if we were all just hanging around the house that day, we would still all have gotten showered and dressed, as would she. The fact that she hadn't yet doesn't mean that she wouldn't have done.
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: wolfie on October 25, 2013, 09:49:25 AM
In the OP it was explained that Alice got up and threw on some casual clothes and (I think it was later stated) hadn't showered or put on the clothes she intended to wear to go out.

Later, after the holiday, Alice told the OP that she hadn't realised everyone else getting showered and dressed meant they were getting ready to go out. Alice said "presumably you would have had a shower and got dressed even if we weren't going anywhere. I thought that's what you were doing."

But Alice herself didn't shower and get dressed when first getting up. So she assumed that everyone else's ablutions and dressing were part of normal behaviour when this was not her own behaviour. This makes me side eye what Alice actually was thinking about everyone else getting ready.

I think Alice's point was that if we were all just hanging around the house that day, we would still all have gotten showered and dressed, as would she. The fact that she hadn't yet doesn't mean that she wouldn't have done.

But she did know that the plan wasn't to hang around the house all day... there was a plan to go someplace. Just that the time hadn't been set yet.
Title: Re: Specific plans vs going with the flow - who's in the right?
Post by: Victim Of Fate on October 25, 2013, 04:22:21 PM

I think Alice's point was that if we were all just hanging around the house that day, we would still all have gotten showered and dressed, as would she. The fact that she hadn't yet doesn't mean that she wouldn't have done.

But she did know that the plan wasn't to hang around the house all day... there was a plan to go someplace. Just that the time hadn't been set yet.

Of course she knew that the plan wasn't to hang around the house all day, but I think she was saying that the fact that everyone was having a shower and getting dressed wasn't necessarily indicative of the fact that people would want to leave as soon as possible, because people would have done that anyway.