Etiquette Hell

General Etiquette => All In A Day's Work => Topic started by: jpcher on October 24, 2013, 05:52:09 PM

Title: Should I respond?
Post by: jpcher on October 24, 2013, 05:52:09 PM
About 6-7 months ago a new system was put in place at work where our voice mail messages automatically goes to our e-mail. I think this is pretty cool.

If a voice mail message is not left, you still get an e-mail notification stating the person's name (intracompany) or phone number for an outside caller.


Two scenarios:

1. There's quite a few times where I'll call somebody or another, get their voice mail, and hang up without leaving a message thinking that I could call somebody else for the answer to my question.

More often then not, it seems, the people I hang up on without leaving a message call me back anyway saying "I see that you called, what's up?"

Me: "Oh, I contacted so-n-so. Question answered, no worries. But thanks for calling back."



2. Today I had a string of meetings so I wasn't at my desk very often in the morning. When I had time to go through my e-mails I saw that there were 2 missed calls from John but no messages were left. A couple of hours later the phone rings, I answer and it's John. We have a good rapport, but this conversation got me to thinking:

John: There you are. I was starting to think that you were ignoring me.

Me (laughing): Yeah, I see that you called a couple of times this morning. What's up?

John: Why didn't you call me back?

Me: You didn't leave a message.

John: But you saw that I called. You should have called me back.

Me: Why should I call you back when you don't leave a message?

John: But I did leave a message. I know how the system works. You got an e-mail . . .



So, with both scenarios above, I'm rather confused. Scenario 1 the person had absolutely no reason to return my non-message call, that's why I hung up without leaving a message. Scenario 2 the person expected that I return his non-message call because, well, the e-mail notification was a message?  ::) ?



Should I respond to non-message voice/e-mails?
Title: Re: Should I respond?
Post by: GlitterIsMyDrug on October 24, 2013, 06:02:50 PM
I'd call back and say "Hi John, I saw you tried to get a hold of me earlier, is there something I can help you with?", like you John might've already gotten the answer, but it's still nice to follow up. Which is what I'd assume people are doing when they call you back, making sure you don't still need help. For all they know you're still going through the "who can help me" list.

If my friend calls my cell phone and hangs up with out leaving a message (as they usually do, we aren't big on messages), I call them back. If it's a number I don't know, I don't bother because I figure, wrong number. But if it's someone I know, I call back. Maybe they didn't need a darn thing, maybe it was a butt dial, but it doesn't put me out to call them back so I do.
Title: Re: Should I respond?
Post by: shhh its me on October 24, 2013, 06:12:52 PM
 Ohhh just like caller ID.   The same thing happens at home with caller ID , people call 1/2 of them expect you to call back at some point because you can see they called 1/2 don't except a call back because they didn't leave a message.   So I have no answer I think peoples opinions will be equally divided except I think you should got with whatevr the majority does in your workplace I don't think either is wrong.
Title: Re: Should I respond?
Post by: LEMon on October 24, 2013, 06:22:49 PM
Is there a way to clarify what you will do in your voicemail?  "Leave a message if you need me to call you back.  No message, no call." (not worded properly but general intent)

If you don't get a lot of calls, I would probably call back those who call.  If you are swamped with work and calls, I would say to John that "being very busy, you are put in the position of not being able to call back all those who call unless a message is left."
Title: Re: Should I respond?
Post by: Hmmmmm on October 24, 2013, 07:41:33 PM
To me integrated messaging that shows who called is no different than reviewing the call log on your phone. If I see someone has tried to call several times but didn't leave a message I'll call them back.  If they only called once and didn't leave a message I won't call them back.

I'd just tell John "Sorry, if you con't leave a message, I'll assume you found your answer elsewhere. If you want a call back, please leave a message."

Title: Re: Should I respond?
Post by: TootsNYC on October 24, 2013, 08:37:54 PM
I just don't get why people who want you to call back won't say, "Call me back." It's not that many seconds!

Title: Re: Should I respond?
Post by: Promise on October 24, 2013, 09:18:32 PM
It would be rude of me,the caller, to assume that even though I don't leave a message, I expect the receiver of my call to call me back if I didn't leave a message. It makes me look like I think I'm too important to leave a message and that you should be able to read my mind.
Title: Re: Should I respond?
Post by: Ceallach on October 24, 2013, 09:32:14 PM
It would be rude of me,the caller, to assume that even though I don't leave a message, I expect the receiver of my call to call me back if I didn't leave a message. It makes me look like I think I'm too important to leave a message and that you should be able to read my mind.

I agree!

My mobile phone always shows who has called, but if they want a call back they should leave me a message.  If they don't, I assume it wasn't important and they will try again later.   I often don't leave a message, but if so I don't expect a call back.   
Title: Re: Should I respond?
Post by: camlan on October 25, 2013, 05:22:11 AM
The common factor in both your scenarios is that the other people treated hang-up calls as if a call-back is expected.

If this is your company culture, the best thing to do is roll with it. If you are the one calling, leave a short message: "Oh, you're not in, I'll call Susie instead. No need to call back."

If you are the one receiving the email about the hang-up call, you can either call back, or shoot them a short email, along the lines of "I saw you called. Do we still need to talk?"  I'd go for the call-back if they called more than once. I'd use the email if they called once, hours ago.

Personally, I'm with you, OP. If there's no message, I don't call back every phone number that shows up on my home Caller ID. But if the expectation at work is that an email message with no message is enough to generate a call-back, then you might be fighting a loosing battle to insist that everyone who wants you to call back must leave a message.

Title: Re: Should I respond?
Post by: *inviteseller on October 25, 2013, 08:10:21 AM
It is business so I would call back.  A lot of people nowadays don't leave messages because of caller ID so I always return calls.
Title: Re: Should I respond?
Post by: lowspark on October 25, 2013, 08:18:26 AM
I like the suggestion to change your outgoing message to clarify that if they need a call back, to leave a message.

However, I more strongly agree that since it's business, I'd call back. Or at least send an email saying, I see you called, do you still need to chat with me?

With my kids, if they don't leave a message but I see they've called, I usually text them. If it happens with someone at work, I usually IM them. But I do always give some kind of reply to at least acknowledge that I see they've called.
Title: Re: Should I respond?
Post by: Jones on October 25, 2013, 08:26:22 AM
More than one call is definitely a sign to call back.

However, I am in the camp of calling back anyone whose number I recognize.
Title: Re: Should I respond?
Post by: gollymolly2 on October 25, 2013, 08:32:33 AM
I think this comes down to work culture, and it sounds like your work's culture is to call back if the person doesn't leave a voicemail. You could leave messages saying "don't worry about calling back, I have a question I can ask someone else." or you could just risk them calling back - I'm sure that just takes a few seconds.
Title: Re: Should I respond?
Post by: lowspark on October 25, 2013, 08:34:11 AM
Oh, and regarding the person calling you back when you didn't leave a message... well, then I'd probably start leaving a message. I was calling regarding xyz but since you're not there I will check with Mary instead. Or some such.

But you know, if I received that message, I might (depending on who was calling me and how important xyz was) still go ahead and contact the caller to make sure they got what they needed.
Title: Re: Should I respond?
Post by: Lynnv on October 25, 2013, 09:09:05 AM
I think this comes down to work culture, and it sounds like your work's culture is to call back if the person doesn't leave a voicemail. You could leave messages saying "don't worry about calling back, I have a question I can ask someone else." or you could just risk them calling back - I'm sure that just takes a few seconds.

I agree.

At home, I am in agreement.  If someone wants to talk to me, they can leave a message.  And if I want to talk to someone, I will leave a message.  However, if the work culture has a different expectation (and it sounds like it does), then adhere to that when you are at work. 

Title: Re: Should I respond?
Post by: cwm on October 25, 2013, 09:10:49 AM
In my office, if someone calls and doesn't leave a message, nobody calls back. If you do require a call back, you send an email. No voicemail, no email, no callback.

The exception is if I call my mom or she calls me and we don't leave a message, we'll call each other back, but that's just how we've operated for years. No message means it's not urgent, but a callback is appreciated.
Title: Re: Should I respond?
Post by: whiskeytangofoxtrot on October 25, 2013, 10:23:49 AM
If I called every number that popped up on my phone/computer every day, that's all I'd ever do. My outgoing message states, "please leave a message, or for more immediate assistance, call so-and-so at such-and-such number". No message, no callback.

And it really irks me if someone says "call me back" without mentioning what their concern is; they get answers much more quickly if they state what they want so I can call them back with specific information.
Title: Re: Should I respond?
Post by: Hmmmmm on October 25, 2013, 10:24:20 AM
The common factor in both your scenarios is that the other people treated hang-up calls as if a call-back is expected.

If this is your company culture, the best thing to do is roll with it. If you are the one calling, leave a short message: "Oh, you're not in, I'll call Susie instead. No need to call back."

snip

I took the first scenario to indicate the person who originated the call didn't expect a call back. Sure they said thanks for calling, but I think that was just being polite.

So I'm not sure her company has a definitive culture yet based on their knew unified messaging system. Only that the one guy has this odd expectation.
Title: Re: Should I respond?
Post by: veronaz on October 25, 2013, 11:17:34 AM
I realize office phone systems are set up differently than a person’s home phone (land line), but I wanted to mention something.

Back in the late 1980s – mid 1990s I had an answering machine at home.  I did not have caller ID.  Most of the calls I got were hang-ups.  I never ‘screened’ my calls and I didn’t hide/avoid talking to anyone.  If I was home and able to answer the phone I did.  But the hang-ups were because 1) people didn’t want to leave a message……most hated talking to an answering machine and/or 2) they assumed I wasn’t home (I could have been in the bathroom or taking out the trash).  This was really annoying because it takes a few seconds to say “It’s xxxx, call me when you have a chance” or “I’ll pick you up at 4:00” or whatever.  One set of relatives told me they hated answering machines, so they just repeatedly called and hung up.  RUDE.

My point is that when people call and get voicemail then hang up, it can cause problems and waste time (the call recipient wonders why they called, calls back, telephone tag, etc.)  There is no reason why a caller can’t just say “It’s xxxx. Guess you’re busy, I’ll try someone else, no need to call, talk to you later” or something along those lines.

Even when I call someone from my cell and reach a vm for a wrong number, I say “Wrong number….sorry” because chances are I’ll get a call later if I don't say something
Title: Re: Should I respond?
Post by: Kgirl on October 25, 2013, 05:45:05 PM
I have the same system at work.  I NEVER return missed calls only if a voicemail is left. Not everybody knows that you can see missed calls and often times call back and talk to someone else.
Title: Re: Should I respond?
Post by: lorelai on October 25, 2013, 07:37:42 PM
In my personal life I do not answer missed calls if they do not leave a message, not even from my DH. If it was important, a message would be left!

I do the same thing in a professional setting. I think it's a reasonable standard, however I think you should also get a read on the standard in your workplace.
Title: Re: Should I respond?
Post by: sweetonsno on October 26, 2013, 12:37:40 AM
Many moons ago, before smart phones, I remember that if I reached someone's voice mail, I had the option to "page" them. That would essentially leave them a message saying that I had called without me needing to leave a voice message. It sounds like some people are treating the program this way (or like a traditional pager).

It's interesting to me that so many people don't call back unless someone specifically asks them to. My MO is the opposite. If I miss a call from a friend or family member, I return it. I assume that they called because they want to talk to me.  :)

I suggest erring on the side of safety on this one. If a coworker calls you, especially multiple times, it's wise to either call back or shoot them an email to check in. It seems unlikely that they just want to chat. It does sound like your company/team's culture may be that a missed call means "please return my call," so I'd probably just start doing that with work calls, even if it seems strange.

If the volume of calls is high enough that returning them all isn't practical, then I like the suggestion of changing your message to a.) tell people to leave a message if they need a call back and b.) offering an alternate contact if they need immediate assistance.
Title: Re: Should I respond?
Post by: veronaz on October 26, 2013, 09:43:26 AM
Quote
then I like the suggestion of changing your message to a.) tell people to leave a message if they need a call back and b.) offering an alternate contact if they need immediate assistance.

The problem with this is that many people don't bother to listen to the announcement message.  As soon as they realize they've reached vm they hang up.
Title: Re: Should I respond?
Post by: jpcher on October 26, 2013, 04:11:03 PM
If this is your company culture, the best thing to do is roll with it. If you are the one calling, leave a short message: "Oh, you're not in, I'll call Susie instead. No need to call back."

This is a great thought and quite obvious now that I think about it! Instead of hanging up as soon as I hear that the call went to voice message I will do this in the future in order to avoid call back confusion. Thanks!


The recorded message that I have on my voice mail is "You have reached jpcher. I am currently away from my desk. Please leave a detailed message and I will get back to you as soon as possible. If this is something that needs immediate attention, please contact Boss at extension XXXX . . . I have pretty much the same message as an "out of office" response from my e-mail for whenever I'm away at meetings and such.


Quote
then I like the suggestion of changing your message to a.) tell people to leave a message if they need a call back and b.) offering an alternate contact if they need immediate assistance.

The problem with this is that many people don't bother to listen to the announcement message.  As soon as they realize they've reached vm they hang up.

Yes. And I am (used to be ;)) one of those. As soon as I hear the call went to VM, I hang up and call elsewhere. I'm learnin' ;D . . . Leave a message, right?




As far as company culture :o. Oh. Well. Maybe I should ask my CWs what they do with the non-message emails. You know, just to find out what everybody else does? Sometimes I'm so dense that I can't see the trees in the forest.  ::)


Thanks, all! ;D
Title: Re: Should I respond?
Post by: Please pass the Calgon on October 26, 2013, 04:30:03 PM
"You have reached jpcher. I am currently away from my desk. Please leave a detailed message and I will get back to you as soon as possible. If this is something that needs immediate attention, please contact Boss at extension XXXX

Maybe it could be changed to ""You have reached jpcher. I am currently away from my desk. If you would like me to return your call, please leave a detailed message. If this is something that needs immediate attention, please contact Boss at extension XXXX "?
Title: Re: Should I respond?
Post by: Peppergirl on October 27, 2013, 01:11:39 AM
I feel that it's unprofessional and somewhat entitled to expect someone to know to return your call without the courtesy of leaving a voice mail.  At least if they've left a voicemail, it removes the guessing-game of the situation. 

Even if you don't want to get into detail, how hard is it to say 'Hello, its _____, please call me back at your convenience'?
Title: Re: Should I respond?
Post by: SamiHami on October 27, 2013, 05:53:06 PM
Actually, something I hate is that two people in my office will see that I rang their phone some time before and they are now calling back to see what I needed. I left no message. I didn't email or IM them. I work a busy desk and usually by the time they call me I don't even remember what I called about to begin with. If I can't get one of them, I immediately move on to someone else to find an answer and once that's done I don't dwell on it. So when I get a "Hey, you called? What do you need?" an hour after the fact it's wasting my time and theirs. It's very annoying and takes my attention away from the task at hand.
Title: Re: Should I respond?
Post by: TootsNYC on October 27, 2013, 06:17:13 PM
Actually, something I hate is that two people in my office will see that I rang their phone some time before and they are now calling back to see what I needed. I left no message. I didn't email or IM them. I work a busy desk and usually by the time they call me I don't even remember what I called about to begin with. If I can't get one of them, I immediately move on to someone else to find an answer and once that's done I don't dwell on it. So when I get a "Hey, you called? What do you need?" an hour after the fact it's wasting my time and theirs. It's very annoying and takes my attention away from the task at hand.

I think you could end up with a learning curve--hopefully people will eventually figure out that if you didn't leave a specific message, you don't need a callback.

But you could speed that up by telling them, when they do call you back, "Oh, if I don't leave a specific message, you don't need to call me back--I move fast enough that I'll get what I need from someone else. If I don't get it, I'll call again and leave a message."

I worked at a place once that had a sort-of-unspoken culture of *leaving* a detailed message. You *never* said, "call me back"--you always said, "call me back about XYZ, and whether I can get a copy of it."

And there was once a news story about Microsoft, and the "I can't be bothered to listen to voice mail messages" culture--people would hope to save time by leaving info on the voicemail, and the Microsoft people would just delete it and call back, saying, "What did you want?" As I recall, the tone of the story was "exasperated." They Microsoft people were sort of depicted as Special Snowflakes.

I think the default business standard ought to be, "leave a message with some detail, please--enough so that I know what you want from me and can be prepared before I call you back."

Some stuff, if it's simple enough, they might not even need to call you back, but can instead set in motion whatever it was you asked for.
Title: Re: Should I respond?
Post by: jpcher on October 28, 2013, 06:04:33 PM
Today I asked the rest of the group in my immediate department (10 people, including Boss and BigBoss) what they do with non-message VMs in their e-mail.

Every one of them said that they ignore.

BigBoss laughed! She said "I am not going to chase down extra work. If the question/problem is not important enough for them to leave a message then it certainly is not important enough for me to respond." ;D


I will start leaving messages such as "no need to call me back" instead of hang-ups once VM kicks in.


I'll change my incoming message to:

Maybe it could be changed to ""You have reached jpcher. I am currently away from my desk. If you would like me to return your call, please leave a detailed message. If this is something that needs immediate attention, please contact Boss at extension XXXX "?

Does that work?
Title: Re: Should I respond?
Post by: Ceallach on October 28, 2013, 06:25:09 PM
I had the opposite problem today!   One of my newer staff called my phone and didn't leave a message.   I wasn't sure if it was her as her number is blocked (necessary due to some of the clients she calls from that phone, and fairly common at my company), but knew if it was her that it would probably be important.   I sent her a message saying "Hi I just had a missed call from a blocked number, was that you?  I am free now if you need to talk".   Sure enough, she replies that it was her and with what she needs from me.   ::)    I'm not sure what she hoped to achieve, perhaps she is one of those people who will just keep calling without leaving messages and then complain that they couldn't reach me?   I will definitely need to give her some retraining so expectations are clear.   (Although given I just demonstrated my psychic powers to her she may not see why it's necessary...)

I get that people have different understanding of the purpose of voicemail, but sometimes they are a little illogical.  In this case there was nobody else who could help her, and it was a fairly immediate need.   So she's lucky I broke my usual rule about not responding if there's no message left, and also that I guessed correctly that it was her!
Title: Re: Should I respond?
Post by: TootsNYC on October 28, 2013, 07:59:08 PM
Ceallach, you're her boss--I would think that you can say, "next time, leave a message--I don't want to have to do detective work, and neither does anybody else. That's not a good use of people's time."
Title: Re: Should I respond?
Post by: Ceallach on October 29, 2013, 03:12:35 AM
Ceallach, you're her boss--I would think that you can say, "next time, leave a message--I don't want to have to do detective work, and neither does anybody else. That's not a good use of people's time."

Oh of course!  As I said in my post, some retraining to ensure expectations are clear.   Nothing formal, just pointing out what would work better.

I didn't say so to her at the time as we had bigger issues to sort out with the reason she actually needed to call, but when I see her in person tomorrow I plan to raise it.
Title: Re: Should I respond?
Post by: Sweettooth on October 29, 2013, 05:21:58 PM
Actually, something I hate is that two people in my office will see that I rang their phone some time before and they are now calling back to see what I needed. I left no message. I didn't email or IM them. I work a busy desk and usually by the time they call me I don't even remember what I called about to begin with. If I can't get one of them, I immediately move on to someone else to find an answer and once that's done I don't dwell on it. So when I get a "Hey, you called? What do you need?" an hour after the fact it's wasting my time and theirs. It's very annoying and takes my attention away from the task at hand.

This is how I operate as well: if I need you to call back or if I need something from you, I'll leave a message. But some of my coworkers operate the opposite way: they don't listen to my voice mails which might sometimes save them a phone call, and they call back if I *don't* leave a message. Maybe eventually we'll work out a social standard--my way, of course, should be the standard.  :P
Title: Re: Should I respond?
Post by: veronaz on October 29, 2013, 05:31:45 PM
Yeah, it's irritating to get a call like this:

"I see you called."
Me:  "Yeah."
(silence)
"What can I do for you?"
Me:  "Did you listen to my vm message?"
"No."
(So I have to repeat everything I said in the vm they didn't want to bother listening to.) ::)  What a waste of time - for both of us.

Title: Re: Should I respond?
Post by: Hmmmmm on October 30, 2013, 07:45:15 PM
I had the opposite problem today!   One of my newer staff called my phone and didn't leave a message.   I wasn't sure if it was her as her number is blocked (necessary due to some of the clients she calls from that phone, and fairly common at my company), but knew if it was her that it would probably be important.   I sent her a message saying "Hi I just had a missed call from a blocked number, was that you?  I am free now if you need to talk".   Sure enough, she replies that it was her and with what she needs from me.   ::)    I'm not sure what she hoped to achieve, perhaps she is one of those people who will just keep calling without leaving messages and then complain that they couldn't reach me?   I will definitely need to give her some retraining so expectations are clear.   (Although given I just demonstrated my psychic powers to her she may not see why it's necessary...)

I get that people have different understanding of the purpose of voicemail, but sometimes they are a little illogical.  In this case there was nobody else who could help her, and it was a fairly immediate need.   So she's lucky I broke my usual rule about not responding if there's no message left, and also that I guessed correctly that it was her!

In some corporate cultures, you don't normally ask a higher up to call you back. You might say "Hi, Boss. I tried calling you about such and such. I'll try you again later." And then the boss can call back if they want. But asking for a call back is considered bad form.
Title: Re: Should I respond?
Post by: Ceallach on November 01, 2013, 12:11:58 AM
I had the opposite problem today!   One of my newer staff called my phone and didn't leave a message.   I wasn't sure if it was her as her number is blocked (necessary due to some of the clients she calls from that phone, and fairly common at my company), but knew if it was her that it would probably be important.   I sent her a message saying "Hi I just had a missed call from a blocked number, was that you?  I am free now if you need to talk".   Sure enough, she replies that it was her and with what she needs from me.   ::)    I'm not sure what she hoped to achieve, perhaps she is one of those people who will just keep calling without leaving messages and then complain that they couldn't reach me?   I will definitely need to give her some retraining so expectations are clear.   (Although given I just demonstrated my psychic powers to her she may not see why it's necessary...)

I get that people have different understanding of the purpose of voicemail, but sometimes they are a little illogical.  In this case there was nobody else who could help her, and it was a fairly immediate need.   So she's lucky I broke my usual rule about not responding if there's no message left, and also that I guessed correctly that it was her!

In some corporate cultures, you don't normally ask a higher up to call you back. You might say "Hi, Boss. I tried calling you about such and such. I'll try you again later." And then the boss can call back if they want. But asking for a call back is considered bad form.

Right, but she knew her number was blocked, so how would I know she'd called at all!  I don't expect anybody to demand a call back, but telling me what she needed is necessary in order for me to be aware of the need and assist her.
Title: Re: Should I respond?
Post by: DragonKitty on November 01, 2013, 12:50:19 PM
At work, I try to be very specific in my voicemails.  "I'm calling about "specific problem", please call me back at ....".  I also am careful about the speed at which I leave my phone number, because I hate people who rattle off their number so fast, I have to rewind the voicemail 4 or 5 times to be able to get the number.

Also, if I return a call and get person's voicemail, then I do suggest that "If we are going to play phone-tag, please tell me what you need to know so that I can leave you a message about your concern".  And sometimes we never connect over the phone, but their question gets answered.
Title: Re: Should I respond?
Post by: SamiHami on November 01, 2013, 06:24:14 PM
Oh! I have another one! The people in my office make a lot of outgoing calls. Students will see that a call came from the school and will call and the conversation usually goes something like this:

student: I got a call from this number.
me: Okay, who do you want to talk to?
student: I don't know; someone called me.
me: (ask a couple of questions to try to suss out who they might need)
me: Sorry, I don't know who called you; if it's important I'm sure they will call you back.
student: oh, well I guess I'll listen to the message and see who it was.
me: *headesk*
Title: Re: Should I respond?
Post by: Peppergirl on November 02, 2013, 05:35:17 AM
^ Boy, do I HATE this too!

Worse, I work in an after hours call center.  We get people calling and without so much as a hello, "Someone just called my number". 

When I explain that it's a multi-line call center and that there's no way to figure it out, I often get cursed at.
Title: Re: Should I respond?
Post by: PastryGoddess on November 02, 2013, 10:39:26 AM
Oh! I have another one! The people in my office make a lot of outgoing calls. Students will see that a call came from the school and will call and the conversation usually goes something like this:

student: I got a call from this number.
me: Okay, who do you want to talk to?
student: I don't know; someone called me.
me: (ask a couple of questions to try to suss out who they might need)
me: Sorry, I don't know who called you; if it's important I'm sure they will call you back.
student: oh, well I guess I'll listen to the message and see who it was.
me: *headesk*

I'm guilty of doing this a lot.  However, I realize pretty quickly when I've reached a call center or a front desk person and try to remove myself from the call ASAP. I usually say something like "I'm sorry, I thought they were calling from their personal extension.  I'll see if they left a message and call back"  Then I go and check my messages and call back with the right name or extension