Etiquette Hell

General Etiquette => Life...in general => Holidays => Topic started by: Venus193 on November 21, 2013, 08:40:13 AM

Title: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Venus193 on November 21, 2013, 08:40:13 AM
http://www.ibtimes.com/stores-open-thanksgiving-day-2013-kohls-joins-macys-jc-penney-store-openings-black-friday-update

The above link has an article listing the stores that will be open on Thanksgiving Day.  About five years ago Brunhilde's sister commented "In a few years we'll be finishing our pumpkin pie and heading to the mall."  Which is now happening.

How do you feel about this?
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Firecat on November 21, 2013, 08:45:47 AM
I hate the idea. I have several friends who work retail, and to me it's bad enough that they have to work ridiculous hours on Black Friday. Let them have a holiday to themselves before the craziness really starts!

Of course, I tend not to go out on Black Friday, either, or if I do it's to some of the local shops not in major malls, because I'm just not that big on crowds.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: gingerzing on November 21, 2013, 08:48:28 AM
Having worked retail, I am violently against it.  Retail worker -in the US -tend to only get two days off a year (Thanksgiving and Christmas). It is hard enough to schedule time off. 

Now that said, I marked other since I don't usually (almost never, but DH got me out 2 times in 6 years) shop Black Friday so I am certainly not going to shop on Thanksgiving. 
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: cwm on November 21, 2013, 08:50:39 AM
I hate the idea. I have several friends who work retail, and to me it's bad enough that they have to work ridiculous hours on Black Friday. Let them have a holiday to themselves before the craziness really starts!

Of course, I tend not to go out on Black Friday, either, or if I do it's to some of the local shops not in major malls, because I'm just not that big on crowds.

That is EXACTLY what my response is. I've never had to work Black Friday as a retail worker, but I have had to work in a retail store as a service worker. It's terrible. And if I was told that I had to come in on Thanksgiving itself and miss out on the chance to be with my family, well, that would seriously make me consider finding a job in another industry.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Outdoor Girl on November 21, 2013, 08:53:04 AM
I voted 'Outrageous' - not really because I think all holidays should be sacred but because it forces people who work retail into even more hours where they can't spend time with their own families locally, let alone get a chance to travel to see family.

We are starting to have Black Friday sales up here to compete with the US and keep shoppers at home but our equivalent to Black Friday would be Boxing Day.  I NEVER go shopping on Boxing Day - being mildly crowd phobic makes it so I'd rather go have a root canal than go shopping on Boxing Day.

If I'm together with family over holidays, I have no interest in going shopping.  I'd much rather go skiing or snowshoeing or for a walk or play cards or board games or just about anything other than shopping!
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Virg on November 21, 2013, 08:57:02 AM
My thought is that a lot of people who aren't in retail work on Thanksgiving Day, too.  I'm really of two minds because on one side, any situation like this can get exploitive, but on the other I know a lot of people who would be happy to work on Thanksgiving Day for the extra pay.  So like many things, I don't see it as universally bad just because it's bad for some people.

Virg
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: AnnaJ on November 21, 2013, 08:59:54 AM
I think it's abhorrent.  It would be different if this was a 'normal' shopping day where stores could have a skeleton crew of volunteers - I know there are always a few people with no particular plans or who would like the extra hours - but because of all of the 'big sales' employees don't have a choice, which is wrong.

Sounding older than dirt, I grew up at a time when businesses closed for major holidays...heck, the grocery stores closed early (noonish) for Memorial Day and Labor Day so their employees could join family and friends for picnics. 

A friend who grew up in a truly small town lived next to the town's grocery store; the owner left the store's key with her family on holidays, and everyone in town knew if they had a cooking emergency - drat, ran out of flour! - they could pick up the key, get what they needed, and pay after the holiday.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Bottlecaps on November 21, 2013, 09:01:44 AM
I think it's ridiculous. My uncle works at a grocery store, and he has to work on Thanksgiving Day. The schedule he has for that day means he may miss Thanksgiving dinner at my sister's house. :( And I know there are millions of other retail workers who are going to miss Thanksgiving dinner with their families too, and it makes me sick that so many stores put profits over people like that. :(

(Yes, this is the same uncle I was just complaining about in another thread - Uncle Chatterbox, as sweetonsno dubbed him, LOL. Love the nickname!)
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: daen on November 21, 2013, 09:08:16 AM
My vote is also for ridiculous.
While I'm not from the US, and don't consider Thanksgiving to be as important as some do (which is why I didn't choose the "holidays are sacred" option), there is no reason to keep adding shopping hours. The stores will be open on Black Friday at ungodly hours, and so many are already open 24/7 for so much of the Christmas season - just take a deep breath, realize that the shoppers will be there in the morning, and enjoy the time off.

I see a parallel to Sunday shopping, which was introduced in my area about 15-20 years ago. Most retailers found that, once the dust settled, they were making the same amount in sales that they had before the start of Sunday shopping, but now they had to heat, light, and staff the store for one more day. I really don't see any advantage to beginning Black Friday on Thursday.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Venus193 on November 21, 2013, 09:11:55 AM
The friend I used to talk about (Blanche) was so happy to not be in retail anymore once they started those early openings on Black Friday.  This latest thing would really make her blood boil.

Compounded with seeing Christmas merchandise in stores before Halloween really turns me off.  I have been doing my Christmas shopping all year at a leisurely pace for ages and whatever I don't finish by November 1st gets done online.  I love Amazon wish lists!
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Hillia on November 21, 2013, 09:12:55 AM
I think it's awful.  I can see a few places (like pharmacies) that might need to be open for emergencies, but otherwise?  Your Thanksgiving dinner will be just fine without that extra box of Stove Top, and there's not a doggone junky plastic thing from WalMart that you're going to die without.

My was an RN, and we never, ever celebrated Christmas or Thanksgiving 'normally' because she always volunteered to work those holidays so she had first dibs on vacation days in the summer (also, the holiday pay).  Christmas was always Christmas eve, or 2 am after midnight Mass.  Thanksgiving dinner was late on Thursday afternoon, or else we'd go out.  But at least we understood that our holiday was tweaked a bit because what she did was important: people don't stop being sick and needing care just because there's a holiday.  To ask someone to sacrifice a day with their family for the sake of selling just isn't right, IMO.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Yvaine on November 21, 2013, 09:15:24 AM
If I'm together with family over holidays, I have no interest in going shopping.  I'd much rather go skiing or snowshoeing or for a walk or play cards or board games or just about anything other than shopping!

That's when I take a post-feast nap! :D How do people even have the energy?
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Venus193 on November 21, 2013, 09:22:31 AM

I see a parallel to Sunday shopping, which was introduced in my area about 15-20 years ago. Most retailers found that, once the dust settled, they were making the same amount in sales that they had before the start of Sunday shopping, but now they had to heat, light, and staff the store for one more day. I really don't see any advantage to beginning Black Friday on Thursday.

I also wonder whether it is cost-effective for department stores  to be open on holidays like Thanksgiving.  For any store to be open on normal Sundays is good; many people can't shop M-F because they're working.  When I was a child supermarkets closed at 5 except on Thursdays and Fridays and then they were only open until 7 or 7:30.  Short hours on Saturdays and closed on Sundays.  As for holidays like Thanksgiving, if you didn't have everything in the house by 5pm on the day before, tough noogies.

They also usually opened at 9 rather than 7AM.  That feels like a zillion years ago now.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Lynnv on November 21, 2013, 09:32:17 AM
My thought is that a lot of people who aren't in retail work on Thanksgiving Day, too.  I'm really of two minds because on one side, any situation like this can get exploitive, but on the other I know a lot of people who would be happy to work on Thanksgiving Day for the extra pay.  So like many things, I don't see it as universally bad just because it's bad for some people.

Virg

POD.  I spent 3 years working for a bank that had a truly 24/7 phone line manned by real people.   Each year, I volunteered to work graveyard shifts on the major holidays.  So I got paid my holiday pay.  I got paid double time for working the holiday.  And I got a shift differential.  And they always asked because noone from the 24-hour banking department really wanted to work-so they usually left me (and whooever else volunteered) food and cookies in thanks for making it possible for them to not work.  I loved my paychecks those weeks. 

I would hazard a guess that the people being told (probably not asked) to work are not being well compensated and are not thrilled about it.  On the other hand, there are an awful lot of people who do have to work on the holiday, so I don't see this as the worst thing ever.  I will never patronize a retail establishment on the Feast of St. Turkey, but the only way to make sure that it doesn't happen again is for people to make it a money-losing proposition.  If noone shops, they won't do it again.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Two Ravens on November 21, 2013, 09:34:55 AM
It's funny. I have been seeing a lot of anger on relative's Facebook pages about this, but we have a tradition in our family of going to the movies on T-day and Christmas. There was never any rage about those poor theater employees that have to work. Why are retail workers so different?
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Kaypeep on November 21, 2013, 09:45:31 AM
I'm not crazy about it.  But I spent 8 years working for a convenience store and always worked on the holidays, so as someone else pointed out there are other people who are required to work the holiday, so all the outrage seems a bit OTT. (My brother and I both worked at the same store, so my mom would do Tgiving or xmas dinner early or late, depending on when we worked.  It didn't bother my family, really.)

And the bottom line is, well, the bottom line.  The stores wouldn't do it if they weren't making money.  And based on the traffic I see near every mall and box store, there are definitely people partaking in the frenzy.   So I don't think it's going to change and it's not worth getting too riled up about it. 
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Dr. F. on November 21, 2013, 10:05:17 AM
I'm irritated on behalf of those families whose celebrations will be cut short because someone has to go SHOP! Seriously? You can shop online. You can shop at 3AM the next morning. Hang out with the family for a little bit! (Yes, I have one of those in my family. Can you tell? My aunt/cousins will be straining at the leash to get to the mall from the moment the turkey comes out of the oven.)
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Firecat on November 21, 2013, 10:20:05 AM
Sure, some people will always have to work on holidays: medical personnel, emergency workers, public transportation employees (although at least in my area, that's on a reduced schedule), and given the amount of travel on Thanksgiving in particular, I'm glad that at least some convenience stores are open. The first several of those are truly necessary, and I can see an argument for the convenience stores.

But just for shopping, which is in no way a necessity to anyone? It seems like an exhibition of blatant greed on a day that's supposed to be about being thankful for what we have. I think that's why I find it so upsetting, especially knowing how retail workers are too often treated by both the public and their employers.

Give them a day to rest before they have to deal with the concentrated crazy of the full holiday shopping season. That doesn't seem like so much to ask to me. If it could be, as a couple of previous posters have mentioned, a skeleton crew of volunteers I'd have less of a problem with it.

(For the record, I don't go to restaurants or movies on T-Giving or Christmas, either.)
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: SamiHami on November 21, 2013, 10:23:54 AM
I bypass all of that nonsense and do almost all of my shopping online. I've completed probably 85% of my Christmas shopping already and haven't set one toe in a store. I especially won't shop on Thanksgiving day. Those people should be allowed to enjoy the holiday. It's not going to kill anyone to wait until Friday to buy their stuff.

I know this is all a result of people like me shopping online instead of in brick and mortar stores, but they aren't going to lure me back, ever. Noisy crowded stores, traffic, going out in the cold, squeezing in shopping after work, searching the shelves for things they might not even have...not for me. I'm determined to have a good Christmas without all the stress and nerve-frazzling running around. I love Amazon!
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Jones on November 21, 2013, 10:26:48 AM
Having Kmart open last year on Thanksgiving saved our dinner when the turkey didn't fit in our roaster. The retail workers were smiley and nice. Later I found out they sign up for shifts and got extra pay.

I had an awful, horrible Christmas as a teen that put a damper on the holiday for years to come. I was in an accident on the 23rd, heavily medicated and stitched together, slept through on the 24th but very, very ill (bad reaction to morphine) on the 25th. Thankfully my dad was able to get overpriced OTC meds at a 7-11 convenience store that helped make the day just bearable. The next day the Walmart pharmacy was open and we got something better priced and stronger (still OTC) and life got better for me.

If the employees are compensated their time and willing to sign up to work on a holiday, more power to them. I work in an office and have been called in on Thanksgiving twice. I received holiday pay and didn't feel that I missed out on anything.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: magicdomino on November 21, 2013, 10:33:19 AM
I'm irritated on behalf of those families whose celebrations will be cut short because someone has to go SHOP! Seriously? You can shop online. You can shop at 3AM the next morning. Hang out with the family for a little bit! (Yes, I have one of those in my family. Can you tell? My aunt/cousins will be straining at the leash to get to the mall from the moment the turkey comes out of the oven.)

I think this comes closest to my feelings.  As Virg pointed out, a lot of people already work on Thanksgiving, so it's hard to be outraged unless the retail workers don't get holiday pay, much less night differential.  But it's one thing to run to the grocery store to buy Something! Anything! for dinner because the dog grabbed the turkey.  It's another to run out on Thanksgiving to buy stuff that could easily wait until the next day.  The world will not go into a death spiral if you have to wait a day to buy drastically reduced second-rate electronics.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: SCMagnolia on November 21, 2013, 10:34:05 AM
I spent over a decade working as an on-air personality at a radio station.  I worked EVERY Thanksgiving, EVERY Christmas, and EVERY New Year's day.   I made a deal with the program director that if I had to work every holiday like that, I wanted to request the shift I wanted to work.  I would work the early AM shift (which was my normal non-holiday shift anyhow) so I could still be home in time to finish up dinner and spend the rest of the day with family.   The only day that didn't work so well was New Year's day.  I had to be up no later than 3 AM to go to work, and most of my neighbors had been shooting off weaponry and lighting off an entire arsenal of fireworks until about 2:30 AM. 

Someone had once asked why we didn't just voicetrack (pre-record) our shifts since we did have the capability to do so.  The PD said that oh, no, that would NEVER work.  People wanted to hear a LIVE person on the air while they're stuffing the turkey/opening gifts/nursing a hangover/etc. 

Honestly, most people really didn't give a fat rat's patootie.   And now?  They voicetrack more shifts than they have live shifts.
Go figure.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: GlitterIsMyDrug on November 21, 2013, 10:44:21 AM
I've had several jobs where I've had to work Thanksgiving and Christmas. None of them were retail, they were just businesses that were opened on holidays (most notably a hotel). I never minded. I got time and half (or double time and half in the case of the hotel), and it was my job. I also had to work late nights, or early mornings, and weekends. I had to deal with people screaming at me because I couldn't control the weather (I know, I'm working on it), or because the city had a water main down (clearly my fault). I had to deal with bratty kids (I was apparently a baby sitter), and drunk adults. I did it all while wearing polyester with a big smile on my face. And then I went in the back, cursed them all, and went back out there to do it all again.

The best part about working a holiday though was that I wasn't expected to do any of the cooking/clean up, after all I had been at work all day.

Honestly I most likely won't go out shopping on Thanksgiving. But I'm also not gonna say it's wrong for a business to be open on the holidays either. Some businesses have to be. ER doctors, nurses, police officers, EMTs, I'm glad these people work holidays. Along with gas stations, hotels, and airports/bus/train stations, shutting them down is screw over a lot of holiday travelers.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Two Ravens on November 21, 2013, 10:48:32 AM
Honestly I most likely won't go out shopping on Thanksgiving. But I'm also not gonna say it's wrong for a business to be open on the holidays either. Some businesses have to be. ER doctors, nurses, police officers, EMTs, I'm glad these people work holidays. Along with gas stations, hotels, and airports/bus/train stations, shutting them down is screw over a lot of holiday travelers.

Also, consider that some people don't have families or are far away from them over the holidays. I think it is good that some places are open so they have something to do rather than sit in their homes all day.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Venus193 on November 21, 2013, 10:49:43 AM
Of course it is necessary for medical personnel, police, the fire department, and hospitality employees to work on such holidays.  However, department stores don't need to be open except for corporate and shareholder greed.

I'd love to know if it's really cost-effective for them.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: newbiePA on November 21, 2013, 10:50:18 AM
Meah.   My father is a retired police officer, my brother is a police officer, I am a PA who used to moonlight in an urgent care.  The specific day of a holiday has never ment much to my family.  I hope they get comp time, so they can have Thanksgiving on another day, but esp. as we live more in a get it now world, this was bound to happen.

newbiePA
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: 123sandy on November 21, 2013, 10:51:23 AM
So is it just anti shopping on Thanksgiving? We're okay with hospitals, police officers, firemen, emergency services, taxi drivers, airline workers, the military...etc... A lot more than retail workers will not be spending the day at home with their families and some won't even get paid extra for it.

Seems wrong.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Arila on November 21, 2013, 10:55:12 AM
I wouldn't care, except that some people are basically compelled to work. If all the workers were thrilled to get extra hours that would be one thing, but my understanding is that the deal is "don't show up on the holiday, don't bother showing up for your next shift or any one after that either".

There are very few days that everyone* has off, and getting families together really depends on this.

*except health and safety officers, but I do not consider  the importance/need of retail workers to rise to this "always on" level!
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Firecat on November 21, 2013, 10:58:30 AM
So is it just anti shopping on Thanksgiving? We're okay with hospitals, police officers, firemen, emergency services, taxi drivers, airline workers, the military...etc... A lot more than retail workers will not be spending the day at home with their families and some won't even get paid extra for it.

Seems wrong.

Yes. I see shopping as very different than things like hospitals, firemen, etc. They are necessary. Shopping? Absolutely not a necessity. If it's a holiday, then I think it should be a holiday for as many as possible. And if you are in one of those necessary professions, then I think you should get paid extra for the holiday, at the very least.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Firecat on November 21, 2013, 10:59:28 AM
I wouldn't care, except that some people are basically compelled to work. If all the workers were thrilled to get extra hours that would be one thing, but my understanding is that the deal is "don't show up on the holiday, don't bother showing up for your next shift or any one after that either".

There are very few days that everyone* has off, and getting families together really depends on this.

*except health and safety officers, but I do not consider  the importance/need of retail workers to rise to this "always on" level!

POD
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: #borecore on November 21, 2013, 11:20:43 AM
I worked Thanksgiving, New Year's, and Christmas pretty much every year of the 7 or so I worked at a newspaper. It was no fun, except insofar as my co-workers and I did our best to cheer one another along. I have a LOT of sympathy for everyone who has to work.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Susiqzer on November 21, 2013, 11:24:57 AM
I wouldn't care, except that some people are basically compelled to work. If all the workers were thrilled to get extra hours that would be one thing, but my understanding is that the deal is "don't show up on the holiday, don't bother showing up for your next shift or any one after that either".

There are very few days that everyone* has off, and getting families together really depends on this.

*except health and safety officers, but I do not consider  the importance/need of retail workers to rise to this "always on" level!

POD

Exactly this. My mother was a nurse (now retired), so my family was used to moving holidays around so we could celebrate together. From a young age, I understood that they can't discharge all of the patients and take a day off. She was also well compensated for it. 

But requiring retail workers to give up the holiday with their families for minimum wage? No. Just, no.

I'm very glad that my state still prevents stores from opening on Thanksgiving! It'll be a madhouse at 12:01 on Friday, but people have the holiday off!

(Also, could you imagine preparing a huge Thanksgiving dinner, only to have your guests rush off to shop right after? I'd be devastated!)
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: TootsNYC on November 21, 2013, 12:10:47 PM
  About five years ago Brunhilde's sister commented "In a few years we'll be finishing our pumpkin pie and heading to the mall."  Which is now happening.


But it's only happening because customers are willing to do it.


It strikes me as kinda ridiculous to complain about going to the mall on Thanksgiving, because--hey--you could stay home!

Like Arila, it bothers me because people are compelled to work--and that makes it something that should be eliminated.

In addition to the idea that having a universal holiday makes life easier to families, I also always liked the sense of community, town-wide, that came from us NOT all being out and about. I used to deliver the afternoon paper, so I'd bike all through town dropping it off, and I loved that feelings of "all of us together" that came from the fact that all of us were -at home-. Nothing was open, nothing. (the grocery store manager would go open up for about 2 hours on Thanksgiving morning, and then even that was closed). Once we got a convenience store, the mood was ruined at that end of town.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: shhh its me on November 21, 2013, 12:27:03 PM
I wouldn't care, except that some people are basically compelled to work. If all the workers were thrilled to get extra hours that would be one thing, but my understanding is that the deal is "don't show up on the holiday, don't bother showing up for your next shift or any one after that either".

There are very few days that everyone* has off, and getting families together really depends on this.

*except health and safety officers, but I do not consider  the importance/need of retail workers to rise to this "always on" level!

POD

Exactly this. My mother was a nurse (now retired), so my family was used to moving holidays around so we could celebrate together. From a young age, I understood that they can't discharge all of the patients and take a day off. She was also well compensated for it. 

But requiring retail workers to give up the holiday with their families for minimum wage? No. Just, no.

I'm very glad that my state still prevents stores from opening on Thanksgiving! It'll be a madhouse at 12:01 on Friday, but people have the holiday off!

(Also, could you imagine preparing a huge Thanksgiving dinner, only to have your guests rush off to shop right after? I'd be devastated!)

In my experience they are not compensated for it, also retail workers are the only low paid workers I know of the get extended hours for 6 weeks with little if any overtime pay.  The big stores hire extra part time workers , the small stores do things such as have people work for 8 am to 5 rather then  9 -6  and 2 -11 pm rather then 12 -9, take long unpaid lunches , send people home after working 2 hours , increases salaried people hours by 40 hours a week.  So being open those extra 21-28 hours a week doesn't cost the companies as much as you think it would TBH it doesn't cost them as much as it should. 

IF they had working hours that would be considered fair normally ie premium for staring a shift less then 8 hours after getting off work, no forced non paid lunches of more then a hour, premium for working past 10 pm or before 8 am , full time employees with  no less then 8 hours shifts, part time workers with 4-6 hours shifts , getting  paid time and a half for their 6th day and double time for their 7th day in a week.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Arila on November 21, 2013, 12:32:09 PM
Toots, your description gave me a nice little day dream of the whole world stopped, resting, smelling the roses and enjoying each other and home. Wow I was so relaxed for at least 5 seconds! :)
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Winterlight on November 21, 2013, 12:39:47 PM
My thought is that a lot of people who aren't in retail work on Thanksgiving Day, too.  I'm really of two minds because on one side, any situation like this can get exploitive, but on the other I know a lot of people who would be happy to work on Thanksgiving Day for the extra pay.  So like many things, I don't see it as universally bad just because it's bad for some people.

Virg

POD.  I spent 3 years working for a bank that had a truly 24/7 phone line manned by real people.   Each year, I volunteered to work graveyard shifts on the major holidays.  So I got paid my holiday pay.  I got paid double time for working the holiday.  And I got a shift differential.  And they always asked because noone from the 24-hour banking department really wanted to work-so they usually left me (and whooever else volunteered) food and cookies in thanks for making it possible for them to not work.  I loved my paychecks those weeks. 

I would hazard a guess that the people being told (probably not asked) to work are not being well compensated and are not thrilled about it.  On the other hand, there are an awful lot of people who do have to work on the holiday, so I don't see this as the worst thing ever.  I will never patronize a retail establishment on the Feast of St. Turkey, but the only way to make sure that it doesn't happen again is for people to make it a money-losing proposition.  If noone shops, they won't do it again.

Agreed. My brother worked holidays at a radio station for a decade- he had the 5am to noon shift. He got extra pay and liked the solitude. One of my friends is looking forward to her Tday shift as a barista. I don't think this is a universal complaint by any means.

It's funny. I have been seeing a lot of anger on relative's Facebook pages about this, but we have a tradition in our family of going to the movies on T-day and Christmas. There was never any rage about those poor theater employees that have to work. Why are retail workers so different?

Good point.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Goosey on November 21, 2013, 12:40:51 PM
Lots of people have to work on thanksgiving day and christmas day (not just safety and health care workers), so I really don't understand the outrage.

In addition, there are many, many people who want to work the holidays because of the extra pay involved.

Finally, the "it's a day for FAMILIES thing" <--- this assumes (1) all people working on thanksgiving have families (2) all people working on thanksgiving have families they want to celebrate (3) all people working on thanksgiving celebrate thanksgiving.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: TeamBhakta on November 21, 2013, 01:05:00 PM
Our store will be open on Thanksgiving. And boy has there been some griping about it when the grocery managers aren't nearby. My boss and her bosses wanted us demonstrators to hand out samples on Thanksgiving and Black Friday, but thankfully they've given up on that idea. The extra incentives we were offered for Black Friday + Thanksgiving were puny, an absolute joke :P

I worked Black Friday eve last year. It was horrible. I had to park in another shopping center across a busy road and cross it at night; all the parking spaces at our store were full. I had to use a shopping cart as a shield, because people would not let me pass otherwise. I had a very bad headache for several hours afterwards from too much noise and feeling overstimulated. I actually barricaded myself in a safe spot last year, blocked off with the shopping cart, because someone had the brilliant idea of "You should stroll around handing out coupons to Black Friday shoppers."  ::)

My co-worker's husband told her "I do not want you to go this year unless you take a gun. The crowds get too out of control. TeamBhakta should not go to work that day either unless she takes someone to watch her back." She has enough common sense to not actually carry a gun to work, no worries, (and told her husband that's going too far) but she balked at Thanksgiving / Black Friday work this year, too.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Amara on November 21, 2013, 01:29:54 PM
I voted "outrageous," and the reason why is that opening retail stores on Thanksgiving and Christmas (and even opening in the early morning hours the next day) removes the "special" from those days. It's only two days a year! Can't we respect that? Can't we respect something? Is there nothing at all that retail won't tear down in its desperate grasp for the dollar bill?

I am aware that so many others work those days, some essential personnel, others less so. But many of those are much better paid, especially on holidays, than retail workers who do not, or rarely do, get any additional pay. Even when the stores began opening at 6:00 am the day after the two holidays seemed wrong. (Shows you how long it's been since I was there.) Because while the stores may open at 6:00 or 3:00 am or even midnight the employees usually have to be there one to two hours ahead of time, the managers probably earlier.

Arguments about essential personnel seem to me to be outside the discussion. Retail is so different, and I for one, were I ever put in charge, would deny restaurants, grocery stores, retail, gasoline stations, and more from opening on those two days. Alas, I doubt I ever will be.  ;)
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Outdoor Girl on November 21, 2013, 01:49:17 PM
I have an idea that would work in a small town but wouldn't work in the city:

Let the managers of various retail establishments confer and set up a rotation for who will be open.  If the place that is going to be open doesn't have enough volunteers to work, then volunteers can be drawn from other establishments (I know, payroll for this would be a nightmare).

So Fred's grocery is open for Thanksgiving and Frank's grocery is open for Christmas.  Betty and Veronica's groceries would be open next year.  Same for the gas stations.  Advertise in the local paper which establishments are open and put a sign on the door of each of the closed places with the name and address of the place that would be open.

I do think restaurants are a different category.  While not completely essential, there are people who wouldn't get a meal if they couldn't go to a restaurant.  What about the little family run Vietnamese place on the corner where the owners and most of the staff aren't Christians and don't celebrate Christmas?  Gives a great alternative option for people to get a meal on a day when other establishments aren't open.

I'm in a fairly small city - about 130,000.  We have at least 4 stores of one particular grocery chain.  They could close all but one of them and have volunteers from all 4 stores be the ones to work that day at a particular store, again, well advertised which store will be open.

But straight up consumerism retail where no one's holiday will be ruined if they can't buy that one thing?  Doesn't need to be open, IMO.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: MyFamily on November 21, 2013, 02:04:23 PM
I don't object to stores being open on Thanksgiving - some places need to be staffed (even restaurants or stores).  It is that they are opening to encourage not just more spending, but more frenzied spending.  I think Black Friday has gotten completely and totally out-of-hand and to now extend that to one more day on Thanksgiving?  Insane!!  And for what - a plasma tv?  A new dvd player?  And it is a frenzied experience.

I've been shopping two times on Black Friday.  A few years ago (maybe more than a few at this point), we saw that the perfect gift was on sale at a big box store that we like - so went to buy it and then put it right back when we realized that the lines to check-out literally went from the front to the back of the store.  A week or so later, I went back and bought the perfect gift and it was the same price as the Black Friday price.  Last year, my husband and I were running errands, without kids - we drove by another big box store that had just opened at that location and saw the parking lot was empty.  We needed a few things, so we went in and bought what we needed, plus some gifts for the kids that were a really good price. 

This is the Black Friday secret - with the exception of things like electronics, the other items are going to stay on sale past Black Friday, because the stores want the money of the people who won't go shopping on Black Friday.  So, I don't think they are going to get more shoppers because they are open on Thanksgiving AND Black Friday - I think they'll get the same number of shoppers spread out over two days. And honestly, that just isn't right for the minimum wage workers who want to be home enjoying a Thanksgiving dinner, or a Dr. Who Marathon while eating Chinese food all by themselves...that is why I totally object to this practice.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Venus193 on November 21, 2013, 02:16:25 PM
I have to wonder how many customers really want this vs retailers just looking to have more frenzied shoppers.  Since stores have Christmas merchandise in for almost a month before Black Friday, why not initiate the season earlier?  That sounds like it would be healthier for their bottom line while being less stressful for the customers.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Lynn2000 on November 21, 2013, 02:52:46 PM
It doesn't bother me to have stores etc. open on Thanksgiving and other holidays. I view it as an economic decision, not a moral one. If it turns out to not be cost effective, retailers will stop doing it. But as long as they can make money on it, they will keep offering customers what they clearly want. Of course I'm not okay with retailers treating their workers poorly, but I have no idea of the pay structure of each individual store, and I'm not going to assume they must be horrible people forcing people to work Thanksgiving. If there was an expose of a particular store, okay, I wouldn't patronize them any longer, but that's not something specifically related to holiday work.

Every year my extended family goes to a restaurant to eat. I love it. I am so glad certain restaurants are open and allow us to get the Thanksgiving group meal experience without anyone have to stress over cooking. Plus... yeah, my family just can't cook. :) We are not known for our culinary talents, so I don't miss the "home-cooked" experience. We are certainly always polite and well-behaved to the staff we encounter and leave a large tip.

If people are looking forward to big family gatherings and loving togetherness, I think that is great and they should do whatever works best for them. But not everyone is in that situation. I work at a university campus with a large number of foreign-born students. The vast majority of them do not have family in the area and don't even celebrate Thanksgiving. They're like, "Well, it's Thursday, what should we do today?" I'm sure they're also very glad restaurants, shops, movie theaters, etc. are open. Although as I said, I see it as an economic decision, not something retailers do because they're evil, or conversely, out of the goodness of their hearts for people who have nothing else to do that day.

To those who complain about relatives dashing away early from dinner to go shopping--I think the problem is not that shopping is available, it's that the relatives are rude. I certainly have relatives who manage to ignore everyone else in the house at family holiday gatherings, for example by going into the den or upstairs to watch TV, without having anything to do with going out shopping. Just my thoughts on the matter. :)
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: camlan on November 21, 2013, 02:53:42 PM
I voted Outrageous not because I think Thanksgiving should be sacred, but because I think people deserve the holiday.

But then, I think football players and coaches and support staff and sportscasters should be home on Thanksgiving, as well.

Yes, there are many people who have to work on the holidays--medical personnel, the military, fire and police, hotel employees, for example. But they are usually compensated in some way--extra money, time off at some later date, something.

But part-time retail workers are told to come in Thursday evening or lose their jobs. They work ridiculous hours in the middle of the night. And they get nothing but their regular hourly pay in return. Except, of course, that they get to keep their jobs.

I read one report that last year, when a few stores experimented with opening Thanksgiving afternoon, they actually made less money overall, than when they just opened early on Friday.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Outdoor Girl on November 21, 2013, 03:06:00 PM
But then, I think football players and coaches and support staff and sportscasters should be home on Thanksgiving, as well.

Yes!  Christmas Day NBA kind of baffles me, as well.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: poundcake on November 21, 2013, 03:08:38 PM
Quote
Of course it is necessary for medical personnel, police, the fire department, and hospitality employees to work on such holidays.  However, department stores don't need to be open except for corporate and shareholder greed.

This. I voted "Outrageous" because really, the whole Black Friday insanity is bad enough. I am so incredibly sick of the climate of corporate greed that is just getting worse and worse with each passing year. "Go shopping!" is NOT the cure for all that ails Western Civilization.

I also have problems with people going to the movies on Thanksgiving and Christmas, and people having to work on those days, too. You can't watch TV at home for ONE day, so people who have to work crap jobs can have a day off?

Of course, I worked retail for many years, and few things are more horrible than holiday shoppers, and that December 24th shift. For 7 years, holidays were nothing but a gauntlet of horror, and I'm sure if I were still in retail, I'd be stuck working Thanksgiving as well. And frankly, there is no reason to shop on Thanksgiving Day.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: GlitterIsMyDrug on November 21, 2013, 03:16:50 PM
I also have problems with people going to the movies on Thanksgiving and Christmas, and people having to work on those days, too. You can't watch TV at home for ONE day, so people who have to work crap jobs can have a day off?

I'm one of those people, every Thanksgiving and Christmas we go to the movies. Can I watch TV at home, of course! I often do! When I was a kid it was a way to get me out of the house for a bit. As an adult, it's just a nice tradition. A lot of new movies come out on/around holidays.

Do you think those who work in hotels are making wonderful wages and treated lovely? I sure as heck didn't. Can people really not stay home ONE day so people who work crappy hospitality jobs can have a day off?

Casinos and bars are open too. I'm sure bartenders and card dealers would like this ONE day off. Especially since as we all know EVERYONE celebrates the same holiday and has lots of family they'd like to be with.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Sharnita on November 21, 2013, 03:27:27 PM
If somebody doesn't work at the mall then the only way they would be finishing their pie at the mall would be if they chose to go there.  As far as employees, I have mixed feelings. I know that at our local Gap, they open 8 pm Thursday and stay open until Friday night.  Employees were encouraged to sign up for which "holiday" shifts they'd prefer but they knew they were expected to work sometime during that time frame. They also knew working Thursday meant extra pay.  Thursday evening/night were the first slots to be filled.

Some people are single and don't have family or even close friends living close by.  They might prefer to be at work. Other people get together the day before or the day after. For others it does seem awful that they have to work while somebody, somewhere who is unemployed is thinking they'd work just about any job, any time, any day.

I think it is a fallacy to assume all workers are upset about working or that all workers want to work.  I think it is presumptuous to pronounce what people "should" be doing with all or part of that day and to assume that they all live a life that allows them to do what they "should" on any predetermined day. I also think that it would be nice if we could work on be thankful even if we are at work, with family, alone, etc. but I do realize that can be a major challenge.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: StoutGirl on November 21, 2013, 04:29:20 PM
I am one of the retail workers that has to work at 8pm on Thanksgiving.  Honestly, I am not entirely sure what to think about the whole thing.  I really need the money, but I am really debating about trying to make it to our usual late lunch.  I really appreciate reading through the posts and the support that many are giving for the retail workers.  We are really not sure what to expect when we open the doors.  My manager thinks that it will be really busy right away and will die down by 2am.  We will see.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: camlan on November 21, 2013, 04:38:54 PM
I'm not upset that everyone has to work. If someone *wants* to work, fine.

What I get upset about is that for retail workers especially, there is no holiday at Thanksgiving any more. And I'm wondering when Christmas will become a retail day as well.

I don't understand why most of the rest of the US gets a holiday and retail workers don't. There's no need to shop on Thanksgiving. If someone wants a day off to sleep or go hiking or watch a marathon of old TV shows, that's as valid a reason as getting together with family.

Not trying to dictate what they *should* be doing, just wishing they had the day off, as I will, to do whatever they darn well please.

I like holidays.I like days off.  I just wish everyone could enjoy them.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: katycoo on November 21, 2013, 04:49:25 PM
Do retail workers get paid penalty rates to work the public holiday?
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: #borecore on November 21, 2013, 04:50:47 PM
That's bound to vary.

I got double-time for working at my professional job. Many retail workers don't get anything extra.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Figgie on November 21, 2013, 04:54:26 PM
I started making a list of all the people who work on holidays and it was a pretty large number of people.  All of the bars are open (so bartenders and servers), many restaurants, the movie theaters, the gas station/convenience stores, casinos, police and fire departments, emergency departments, hospitals, nursing homes, assisted living centers, grocery stores (for at least part of the day), call centers for online shopping (I have a friend who works for Amazon and she has worked every Thanksgiving for the past 10 years along with a ton of other people) and I'm sure there are many, many more that I'm not thinking of.  :)

Most of those people don't earn much if any more than the workers in the stores.  Nursing home aides, food service, housekeeping all have to be done and those are pretty low paid, high stress jobs.  Mostly, it is office workers and people who work for the schools, local government workers who get Thanksgiving off. 

Which is to say, that this change just seems to be the way things are going nowadays and that changes almost always cause stress while they are happening.  :)  It used to be pretty much everyone cooked/baked for Thanksgiving.  Now people eat out, even in smaller towns because the restaurants are open. 

I don't go out to shop on Black Friday and I won't be shopping on Thanksgiving, but it is because I am not interested, not because I care one way or the other if the stores are open or not.  I expect my grandchildren (assuming I ever have any)  :)  will grow up thinking it is normal for everything to be open on Thanksgiving.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: lady_disdain on November 21, 2013, 05:16:44 PM
I have to wonder how many customers really want this vs retailers just looking to have more frenzied shoppers.

If shoppers don't want it, then they don't have to go. No one is herding people to stores. If we criticize corporate greed, let's also look at the other side of the equation, at the people who are pushing, pulling and running for that $20 DVD player.

A few years ago, our local malls decided to do a 33hr shopping marathon on Christmas Eve: the malls would open at 9am the day before and remain open until 6pm on Christmas Eve (we traditionally celebrate on Christmas Eve). What happened? Nothing much, few shoppers showed up despite the huge marketing hype and they haven't done it again.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: kherbert05 on November 21, 2013, 07:31:10 PM
My problem with this is simple - People are going to get hurt and possibly die because of this stupidity. It isn't working a holiday I have a problem with. It is stirring up this chaos were people are crushed to death against doors and trampled so someone can get a discounted TV.
 
If you object to this behavior not showing up on Thanksgiving and Black Friday is not enough - boycott them year around and let them know why - until they fix this.

I'll be with family both Thursday and Friday. My gifts will be purchased from small local business, artists if at all possible.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Yvaine on November 21, 2013, 07:46:36 PM
Lots of people have to work on thanksgiving day and christmas day (not just safety and health care workers), so I really don't understand the outrage.

In addition, there are many, many people who want to work the holidays because of the extra pay involved.

Finally, the "it's a day for FAMILIES thing" <--- this assumes (1) all people working on thanksgiving have families (2) all people working on thanksgiving have families they want to celebrate (3) all people working on thanksgiving celebrate thanksgiving.

This. I don't agree with employers who don't give their employees a choice, but there were certainly times in my life when I lived far from home on some holiday, couldn't make it back, and could really use the money. If a shopper doesn't like the practice, they can stay home, and if enough people do, then it won't be profitable anymore for the stores to be open then and they'll stop. But that's the only thing that'll make that happen.

I can enjoy the adrenaline of a good Black Friday crowd, but I'm not up for the Thursday shopping; like I said earlier, that's when I sleep off my turkey and pie.  ;D
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Roe on November 21, 2013, 08:32:00 PM
It's funny. I have been seeing a lot of anger on relative's Facebook pages about this, but we have a tradition in our family of going to the movies on T-day and Christmas. There was never any rage about those poor theater employees that have to work. Why are retail workers so different?

Yep. I guess no one here has ever gone to see a movie during Thanksgiving or Christmas.  lol.  I know I have and I plan to do it again next Thursday!  :D
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: JenJay on November 21, 2013, 08:34:47 PM
I don't mind places being open who have enough employees who want to work. Not everybody celebrates the same holidays, and some do but they want/need the extra pay. It crosses into "Okay, now I think it's wrong." when people are told "You're on the schedule. Be here or turn in your resignation." at an establishment that doesn't need to be open. That's not right.

At the store I worked in they started a new thing a few years before I left. They had one store open all day on Christmas, staffed entirely of volunteers. I thought that was great. They actually had more employees sign up than spots for them, so the 2nd year they opened 3 stores. Cool. The 3rd year they opened every store from something like 8am to 4pm and asked for one volunteer to cover each department (it could be anyone, as long as each area had someone) and three checkers. Hmmm. The 4th year it was decided that every store would be open, every department would have at least one regular employee on staff, and the department managers couldn't volunteer because their salary was too high and corporate didn't want to pay them for holidays. My manager confided in me that the boss told him to "strongly encourage" me to be our volunteer since my husband had to work anyway (and where, exactly would my kids be? Oh not his problem!). Yep, that's where I thought we were headed. That was the last year I worked there so who knows what they do now.

As for the customers who shop, etc. on holidays, hey I don't begrudge them going to a place that's open and staffed by people who want to be there. I did, however, resent having to be in at 5am on Thanksgiving, under threat of being written up if I didn't show, so people could yell at me because we were out of turkeys. And I'm sorry but I wanted to smack all the people who'd say "I feel so sorry for you that you have to work. It isn't right." Hello?! If nobody shopped the stores wouldn't bother opening, right? We have to be here because you choose to be here. If you want to shop, shop, but show some appreciation for the people who are at work so that you can run out for that extra tub of cool whip when the first one didn't quite last through seconds on pumpkin pie, and realize that our dinner was a "this sucks but we'll make the most of it" potluck in the break room.

Finally, take a good look at some of the stores that brag they're closed holidays "so our employees can enjoy the day with their families", but open back up at midnight for the black friday sale. What they don't advertise is that a bunch of employees have been at work since 4pm Thanksgiving day to set up those sales. They may be "closed" but they are not unstaffed!
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: 123sandy on November 22, 2013, 07:55:33 AM
This year my husband has worked on every family occasion, birthdays/anniversaries, Easter, 4th of July, he will work Thanksgiving and we just found out today he will work Christmas Eve, Christmas Day and Boxing Day. Oh! And Hogmanay and New Years Day.. He's salaried so there's no overtime. We just have to suck it up and get on with it, at least he has a job.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: SiotehCat on November 22, 2013, 08:22:57 AM
I would have no problem shopping on Thanksgiving. I don't usually, because I never know what's open. I also go to the movies on Christmas. I didn't even realize the theater was open on Thanksgiving.

I think it's fine for stores to be open and I will probably shop at a few this year. My life doesn't stop just because it's a holiday.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: MindsEye on November 22, 2013, 09:09:51 AM
I have been shopping on Thanksgiving once... because I didn't realize that my turkey didn't fit in the roaster till that morning and had to run out (Target) and get a bigger one. 

I can't even imaging going retail shopping on Thanksgiving.  I am usually way too busy with eating and visiting with family!

As for Black Friday, you couldn't pay me to go to to a shopping mall or big box store then!  And I am still too busy eating (leftovers) and visiting family anyway... 
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Venus193 on November 22, 2013, 10:25:51 AM
Many years ago I made a resolution to finish my Christmas shopping before Thanksgiving.  Black Friday is for writing out the few paper cards I send, wrapping gifts, and watching movies.  I might also work on my overdue opera blog this year.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: kherbert05 on November 22, 2013, 01:05:17 PM
It's funny. I have been seeing a lot of anger on relative's Facebook pages about this, but we have a tradition in our family of going to the movies on T-day and Christmas. There was never any rage about those poor theater employees that have to work. Why are retail workers so different?

Yep. I guess no one here has ever gone to see a movie during Thanksgiving or Christmas.  lol.  I know I have and I plan to do it again next Thursday!  :D
Honestly I can say I've never gone to a retail establishment on
Thanksgiving
Christmas
New Years
Easter
Memorial Day
4th of July - except commercial Fireworks shows


My school is open on Veterans' Day but we spend it honoring veterans.


There used to be a family tradition of sending the teens to a movie on Christmas Day - but theater was owned by some friends who were Jewish and only their family was on duty. When the parents retired and the kids moved on the tradition stopped before I was in 1st grade.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Redneck Gravy on November 22, 2013, 01:09:04 PM
It's funny. I have been seeing a lot of anger on relative's Facebook pages about this, but we have a tradition in our family of going to the movies on T-day and Christmas. There was never any rage about those poor theater employees that have to work. Why are retail workers so different?

I used to work at a movie theater, no one seemed too outraged on my behalf either.

I used to boycott Black Friday, now I have two grandkids and I will be out chasing down good buys for them on Thursday and Friday. 

Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: GlitterIsMyDrug on November 22, 2013, 01:12:41 PM
It's funny. I have been seeing a lot of anger on relative's Facebook pages about this, but we have a tradition in our family of going to the movies on T-day and Christmas. There was never any rage about those poor theater employees that have to work. Why are retail workers so different?

I used to work at a movie theater, no one seemed too outraged on my behalf either.

I used to boycott Black Friday, now I have two grandkids and I will be out chasing down good buys for them on Thursday and Friday.

I worked at a call center for one Christmas. No one was outraged on my behalf...they were outraged at me for calling them but didn't seem to care that I had to work.

I'll be out on Black Friday, but I won't do Thursday. I like it on Friday. Thursday is too intense for me. Plus I don't want electronics or toys, just the cheap DVDs at Target and maybe few other things.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Redneck Gravy on November 22, 2013, 01:37:10 PM
Here's another of my rambling thoughts...

Yes, DD and I would like to eat our dinner and put both grandkids down and get a good nap but because she is a single parent we are inspired to hit a couple of sales.

She set up a spread sheet of where we needed to be at what time for which product and then I had her plug in the price differences to see where we could save the most money in case we missed the sale item or if it was worth NOT waiting in line for and to just go ahead and buy it.

You would be amazed at the savings for the stuff we are looking at, close to $200 we are going to save if we get everything on our list - you know that's a lot of money for a single mom. 

We aren't getting any tv/dvd grown up electronic type stuff - this is just big toys for the kids from each of us and Santa.  And if we don't get them at the ridiculous sale prices we don't know that they will be available later in the season, even for more money.

I used to work at a newspaper, a radio station and I have worked at a movie theater - I have worked every holiday there is.  Yes, I hated it sometimes but I chose those jobs knowing this would be an issue.  Retail employees are NOT all paid minimum wage either - in our booming town they start at double the minimum wage right now (of course rents are out of sight ridiculous too).  So while I am sympathetic with those that do not want to work those days, they chose their job and they can certainly change fields in our area right now and do something different.





Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Lady Snowdon on November 22, 2013, 01:50:30 PM
I've worked holidays before, and the worst part of it for me was the people who wanted to talk about how awful it was that I was working on a holiday.  Wasn't that just terrible?  I must just hate it!  It's so awful that XYZ is open on holidays.  When I worked at the airport for one holiday season (ended up working Thanksgiving and Christmas that year), I told one gentleman who just wouldn't stop talking about disgusting it was that I was there, "Well, I'm here because people like you are interested in flying on the holidays and so people need to work in order for there to be flights.  How many bags did you need to check again?".  I got called very rude but at least he stopped trying to sympathize with me. 

I would be okay with retailers being open on Thanksgiving if I knew that employees could have the day off.  I haven't heard of people having the choice of taking it off, and that makes me mad.  If an employee values a day off versus possible additional money (at one job I got paid extra for working on a holiday, at another I didn't), then I think that person should be able to request the days off. 
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: padua on November 22, 2013, 01:58:30 PM
What I get upset about is that for retail workers especially, there is no holiday at Thanksgiving any more. And I'm wondering when Christmas will become a retail day as well.

I don't understand why most of the rest of the US gets a holiday and retail workers don't. There's no need to shop on Thanksgiving. If someone wants a day off to sleep or go hiking or watch a marathon of old TV shows, that's as valid a reason as getting together with family.

Not trying to dictate what they *should* be doing, just wishing they had the day off, as I will, to do whatever they darn well please.

I like holidays.I like days off.  I just wish everyone could enjoy them.

i agree with this as well. holidays were created to give time off to be with families. if people no longer need time off with their families, it just becomes a day of extra pay. and what employer wants to do that? my husband's boss doesn't provide holiday pay for that reason. people wanted to stay open for the holidays for extra pay. now he doesn't offer the extra pay- he just expects people to work the holidays. i'm not a fan of losing the time off i have just to become a 24/7 shopping/entertainment accessible society.

i'm also not a fan of people expecting access and convenience constantly. i totally get what one poster said when she wrote about going to the hospital and needing med's. but if you forgot the mashed potatoes or left the turkey buying until the last minute, don't demand you get it. learn to be more planful next time or get creative. sometimes the 'not always right' webpage makes me cringe because so often it's a case of 'my crisis needs to become your emergency' or however the saying goes.'
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Goosey on November 22, 2013, 01:59:24 PM
Do hourly retail people get paid for holidays now?
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: GlitterIsMyDrug on November 22, 2013, 02:09:46 PM
I would be okay with retailers being open on Thanksgiving if I knew that employees could have the day off.  I haven't heard of people having the choice of taking it off, and that makes me mad.  If an employee values a day off versus possible additional money (at one job I got paid extra for working on a holiday, at another I didn't), then I think that person should be able to request the days off.

I think a request is fine. But your employer doesn't have to honor that request. Now maybe if they give up one of their regular days off in exchange for the holiday.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Yvaine on November 22, 2013, 02:11:12 PM
I've worked holidays before, and the worst part of it for me was the people who wanted to talk about how awful it was that I was working on a holiday.  Wasn't that just terrible?  I must just hate it!  It's so awful that XYZ is open on holidays.  When I worked at the airport for one holiday season (ended up working Thanksgiving and Christmas that year), I told one gentleman who just wouldn't stop talking about disgusting it was that I was there, "Well, I'm here because people like you are interested in flying on the holidays and so people need to work in order for there to be flights.  How many bags did you need to check again?".  I got called very rude but at least he stopped trying to sympathize with me. 

Yeah, it's kind of like when people go out to lunch on Sunday and rant about how waitstaff shouldn't have to work on Sunday. Well...the customers are providing the demand...

(ETA: And I'm talking about myself too! I'm really glad someone was working at Megabus last Thanksgiving, because I ended up needing it that day and couldn't travel on any other day!)
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: squeakers on November 22, 2013, 02:24:22 PM
I don't get the hype over a "holiday" that celebrates the beginning of genocide. 

Someone else who will still be working on all holidays: farmers.  Animals still need to be fed and cleaned up after.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: BigBadBetty on November 22, 2013, 02:24:37 PM
In college, I worked at a video store that was open every day of the year. We got time and half plus a bonus for working holidays (double-time for Christmas). There weren't any problems finding people to work holidays because of the extra pay. However, I understand that many of the retail workers now are not getting anything extra and face firing if they don't work.  That's where I have the problem.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Venus193 on November 22, 2013, 02:25:28 PM
Brunhilde's husband will be working on Thanksgiving, but he will get triple time and they need the money.  He is a security guard, so his turn would come up sooner or later.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: wolfie on November 22, 2013, 02:43:51 PM
I don't get the hype over a "holiday" that celebrates the beginning of genocide. 

Someone else who will still be working on all holidays: farmers.  Animals still need to be fed and cleaned up after.

And animal shelter workers for the same reason.

The shelter I volunteer for will be open for adoptions that day too. I am friends with the cat manager and she doesn't mind being there over the holidays.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: cwm on November 22, 2013, 03:17:10 PM
I don't get the hype over a "holiday" that celebrates the beginning of genocide. 

Someone else who will still be working on all holidays: farmers.  Animals still need to be fed and cleaned up after.

And animal shelter workers for the same reason.

The shelter I volunteer for will be open for adoptions that day too. I am friends with the cat manager and she doesn't mind being there over the holidays.

The boarding area and petcare areas of the store I used to work at was like this. They'd have 4 hour shifts instead of 8 hours, and everyone was required to take a shift. Usually they didn't mind, because they could all work their schedules to work best for everyone and there were no phones to answer, no customers to deal with, all they had to do was take care of the animals. And usually the company would pay for food to be there all day as well, so they'd get free meals out of it too.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: cass2591 on November 22, 2013, 03:20:53 PM
I don't get the hype over a "holiday" that celebrates the beginning of genocide. 

Someone else who will still be working on all holidays: farmers.  Animals still need to be fed and cleaned up after.

You don't get it? Okay, don't participate. I certainly hope you don't spread your holiday "cheer" to everyone like you did here.

Locked.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Ehelldame on November 23, 2013, 05:13:00 PM
Unlocked but Squeakers has been gagged for a week or so for attempting to hijack the thread.

On the blog for the past few years I have campaigned strenuously against the opening of retail businesses on Thanksgiving after one of my daughters (and all her co-workers) were compelled under threat of firing to work Thanksgiving Day.   Old Navy corporate offices decided fairly late to open stores on Thanksgiving Day.   Most of the employees were women, some of them single mothers, and this late notice forced a number of them to cancel trips home and scramble desperately for someone to babysit their children since nearly all daycare facilities were closed and they were planning on being with family that day.   

 My daughter called the corporate offices of Old Navy, even spoke with someone in the office of the Vice President of Human Relations to lodge a complaint.   Googled HR VP's name and found out she had a million dollar salary per year.   Daughter discovered that the corporate offices were going to be closed Thanksgiving Day.  While the highly paid executives of Old Navy were enjoying Thanksgiving with their families, they were able to do this on the backs of thousands of minimum wage employees who had no choice but to work.   

People who patronize retail stores on Thanksgiving have no idea what the back story is with the employees and don't seem to care.   If you absolutely must go shopping on Thanksgiving Day, you should only go to stores which are staffed by volunteer employees and frankly, if working is good for the minimum wage workers, it's good for the corporate offices, too, so you should check to see if they are open for business as well. 

As for medical/service industry workers, there are two of them in my family.   The way their schedules rotate, there are some years they work those holidays and some they don't.   But they also make triple pay, and supervisors are right there working too. 
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Amara on November 23, 2013, 05:22:09 PM
Thank you for re-opening this thread. I was quite disappointed to see it locked, though I understood why. The discussion about people's different feelings on it is quite interesting and informative. Even when I disagree with some of the posts, I learn.

I've already noted above that I hate the opening of retail stores. Like EHellDame's daugther's experience, I suspect many of those who are "forced" to work have been forced by policies handed down by those who don't work the holidays. Holidays don't have to be considered sacred (in the religious sense of the word or not) for them to be respected. To me, that's what this discussion is about. Forced employment of those in retail whose only bonus to working is their regular pay. And the opportunity to keep working afterwards.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: *inviteseller on November 23, 2013, 05:36:08 PM
As someone who had worked retail from the time I was 16 until 2012, I hate the holidays and what it brings out in people.  The major retailers who are opening early and making workers come in (most have no time off policies between November 1- January 1) are just feeding into the frenzy over the holidays.  When I was married, we lived out of state and I was retail management at a large well known, but now defunct department store.  There was no time off for me to go home for the holidays and my family understood that we would celebrate after the new year but my MIL?  She just about had a stroke when her baby boy wasn't coming home for Thanksgiving and Christmas because I had to work the day before and day after each holiday (we didn't open on Thanksgiving but we did open at 5 am the next day).  I finally made him go home for Thanksgiving the next 2 years.  During the holday times, it was nothing to put in 50-60 hour work weeks.   Corporate VIPs will celebrate the holidays with their families while many people will be working to get them their bonuses.  I refuse to shop any time the weekend after Thanksgiving.  I also just found out the dollar store..yes, the Dollar store will be open from 9-4.  These women in the one I go to are all middle age women with families !  I think the world will not collapse if the Dollar Tree closes for Thanksgiving.  I now work at an assisted living facility which has to have staff 24/7, but they tend to ask for people to volunteer to work shifts and there is usually enough people that want that double time and a half, but no one blinked an eye that I, a single mom with no real family near us anymore except my sister and step mom, would want to be home with my kids (and I am working the weekend that I normally don't so if anyone in my department wants it off can).  It is a nice change..plus they provide a full meal at 2 pm not just for the residents and their families but employees also.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Sharnita on November 23, 2013, 05:51:31 PM
FWIW, Old Navy is owned by the same parent coporation as Gap and Banana Republic.  Employees working holidays get a pay differential.

I know that around here one of the first things they ask you about when you are interviewed for retail jobs is working holidays.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Joeschmo on November 23, 2013, 07:48:59 PM
Unlocked but Squeakers has been gagged for a week or so for attempting to hijack the thread.

On the blog for the past few years I have campaigned strenuously against the opening of retail businesses on Thanksgiving after one of my daughters (and all her co-workers) were compelled under threat of firing to work Thanksgiving Day.   Old Navy corporate offices decided fairly late to open stores on Thanksgiving Day.   Most of the employees were women, some of them single mothers, and this late notice forced a number of them to cancel trips home and scramble desperately for someone to babysit their children since nearly all daycare facilities were closed and they were planning on being with family that day.   

 My daughter called the corporate offices of Old Navy, even spoke with someone in the office of the Vice President of Human Relations to lodge a complaint.   Googled HR VP's name and found out she had a million dollar salary per year.   Daughter discovered that the corporate offices were going to be closed Thanksgiving Day.  While the highly paid executives of Old Navy were enjoying Thanksgiving with their families, they were able to do this on the backs of thousands of minimum wage employees who had no choice but to work.   

People who patronize retail stores on Thanksgiving have no idea what the back story is with the employees and don't seem to care.   If you absolutely must go shopping on Thanksgiving Day, you should only go to stores which are staffed by volunteer employees and frankly, if working is good for the minimum wage workers, it's good for the corporate offices, too, so you should check to see if they are open for business as well. 

As for medical/service industry workers, there are two of them in my family.   The way their schedules rotate, there are some years they work those holidays and some they don't.   But they also make triple pay, and supervisors are right there working too.

I've always had holiday pay, although never triple, when working on holidays.  In retail there were always supervisors working right along side us but never the executives or people who made the big bucks.  Hospital supervisors may be on the job but not the CEO's or other people who make the big money from medical care.

Edited to add: Many years I could afford travel home and/or gifts for family due to working these holidays.  One bad year it provided the extra money to raise my home thermostat over 55 degrees.  My back story was I needed the money and was glad that we were open.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Sharnita on November 23, 2013, 08:17:53 PM
As far as CEOs or other big executives working Thanksgiving, other holidays,  weekends - that is hard to define. Certainly they are unlikely to be in a store but that would be the case any day. They aren't in "the office" but does that mean they aren't working?  At that level there is a permanent "on call" expectation, the idea being that they could and should work anywhere/anytime.  So the CEO is probably home for the holidays but he or she is likely answering emails, phone calls, etc.They are not in a position of working/not working as clearly as a sales associate or stock person.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: LeveeWoman on November 23, 2013, 09:02:27 PM
Unlocked but Squeakers has been gagged for a week or so for attempting to hijack the thread.

On the blog for the past few years I have campaigned strenuously against the opening of retail businesses on Thanksgiving after one of my daughters (and all her co-workers) were compelled under threat of firing to work Thanksgiving Day.   Old Navy corporate offices decided fairly late to open stores on Thanksgiving Day.   Most of the employees were women, some of them single mothers, and this late notice forced a number of them to cancel trips home and scramble desperately for someone to babysit their children since nearly all daycare facilities were closed and they were planning on being with family that day.   

 My daughter called the corporate offices of Old Navy, even spoke with someone in the office of the Vice President of Human Relations to lodge a complaint.   Googled HR VP's name and found out she had a million dollar salary per year.   Daughter discovered that the corporate offices were going to be closed Thanksgiving Day.  While the highly paid executives of Old Navy were enjoying Thanksgiving with their families, they were able to do this on the backs of thousands of minimum wage employees who had no choice but to work.   

People who patronize retail stores on Thanksgiving have no idea what the back story is with the employees and don't seem to care.   If you absolutely must go shopping on Thanksgiving Day, you should only go to stores which are staffed by volunteer employees and frankly, if working is good for the minimum wage workers, it's good for the corporate offices, too, so you should check to see if they are open for business as well. 

As for medical/service industry workers, there are two of them in my family.   The way their schedules rotate, there are some years they work those holidays and some they don't.   But they also make triple pay, and supervisors are right there working too.

I think that the mentality behind this kind of corporate policy is that it's just a part of doing business; that workers do all kinds of things that executives don't have to do because the latter have higher educational levels, and have put their time in their level's trenches; that it's "just the way it is"; that life isn't fair, and that if the workers don't like it, they can get another job.

Golly-gee-whillickers! This seems to be the same mentality that underpinned the feudal system. Have we not evolved beyond treating lesser-paid people as beasts of burden?

What's next? BEING OPEN ON CHRISTMAS DAY?!

Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Ehelldame on November 23, 2013, 09:18:18 PM
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/matt-walsh/shopping-on-thanksgiving_b_4310109.html 
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Joeschmo on November 23, 2013, 09:25:36 PM
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ann-brenoff/stores-open-on-thanksgiving_b_4149893.html
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: kareng57 on November 23, 2013, 10:22:26 PM
Unlocked but Squeakers has been gagged for a week or so for attempting to hijack the thread.

On the blog for the past few years I have campaigned strenuously against the opening of retail businesses on Thanksgiving after one of my daughters (and all her co-workers) were compelled under threat of firing to work Thanksgiving Day.   Old Navy corporate offices decided fairly late to open stores on Thanksgiving Day.   Most of the employees were women, some of them single mothers, and this late notice forced a number of them to cancel trips home and scramble desperately for someone to babysit their children since nearly all daycare facilities were closed and they were planning on being with family that day.   

 My daughter called the corporate offices of Old Navy, even spoke with someone in the office of the Vice President of Human Relations to lodge a complaint.   Googled HR VP's name and found out she had a million dollar salary per year.   Daughter discovered that the corporate offices were going to be closed Thanksgiving Day.  While the highly paid executives of Old Navy were enjoying Thanksgiving with their families, they were able to do this on the backs of thousands of minimum wage employees who had no choice but to work.   

People who patronize retail stores on Thanksgiving have no idea what the back story is with the employees and don't seem to care.   If you absolutely must go shopping on Thanksgiving Day, you should only go to stores which are staffed by volunteer employees and frankly, if working is good for the minimum wage workers, it's good for the corporate offices, too, so you should check to see if they are open for business as well. 

As for medical/service industry workers, there are two of them in my family.   The way their schedules rotate, there are some years they work those holidays and some they don't.   But they also make triple pay, and supervisors are right there working too.


Re your second-to-last paragraph - I'm not sure what you are referring to, regarding stores where the staff are volunteers.  Is it therefore okay to require unpaid volunteers to work on holidays?  Of course I understand that if they refuse to work, there won't be much in the way of consequences, but still...

I truly understand that it's not proper for employers to suddenly inform employees that they'll have to work on a holiday when they had the impression that the store would be closed.  The plan should have been put in place several weeks ago.  But, if the store had decided some time ago that it would be advantageous for them to open, that's their prerogative.  In my area, about 20 years ago, many people were against Sunday shopping (and lots were owners of stores in malls where they had no choice - if the "anchor" stores chose to open, they had to, as well).  Now, it seems to be pretty mainstream to open on all holidays except Christmas, as well as on Sundays.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Amara on November 23, 2013, 10:24:28 PM
Quote
Re your second-to-last paragraph - I'm not sure what you are referring to, regarding stores where the staff are volunteers.  Is it therefore okay to require unpaid volunteers to work on holidays?

I believe she means people volunteering to work the holiday as opposed to being required to. Nothing to do with pay.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: kareng57 on November 23, 2013, 10:28:14 PM
Quote
Re your second-to-last paragraph - I'm not sure what you are referring to, regarding stores where the staff are volunteers.  Is it therefore okay to require unpaid volunteers to work on holidays?

I believe she means people volunteering to work the holiday as opposed to being required to. Nothing to do with pay.


Perhaps - but there are also cases where retail employees would welcome the chance at any extra hours, especially with a chance to earn overtime pay.  Overall, I see both sides of the situation.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: LeveeWoman on November 23, 2013, 10:37:18 PM
Whatever you think of Thanksgiving, DON'T LITTER.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjKF7aQthcQ&feature=related

Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Altarrose on November 23, 2013, 11:16:30 PM
Personally I am looking at things from a different angle. I work at a small office and have Thanksgiving Day off. This is not a choice. I am just off, receive no holiday pay and have to adjust my budget due to a holiday that really isn't that important to me. My husband and I live far from any family, are vegetarian and strive to spend every day possible together embracing gratitude for what we have. I can very much see where people might rather work Thanksgiving and earn wages. I don't think anyone should ever be forced to work during a holiday that is important to them but I do wish I had that choice through my employer.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: violinp on November 23, 2013, 11:31:54 PM
I don't have to work at my theater on Thanksgiving, but it will be open. My co - workers will have a Thanksgiving feast that people can have when they're on break, which is nice, but Black Friday madness at the mall where the theater is starts at 8 o'clock Thanksgiving. I have no words which are polite for how I feel about that.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: sweetonsno on November 24, 2013, 12:31:08 AM
I'm one of the indifferent folks.

Yes, I fall firmly in camp "threatening to fire people for not working on a holiday is wrong." However, I'm also firmly in camp "implying that people cannot or should not work on Thanksgiving is wrong."

I'm surprised at how few previous posters have pointed out that not everyone is going to be celebrating Thanksgiving. I will be, but I made plans less than a week ago. I usually spend Thanksgiving with family. The only two times that I haven't before are when I was working abroad and when I decided to stay in my college town instead of dealing with a daylong commute.

While I do understand the "outrageous" sentiments, I think they are kind of misguided. I think it's idealistic to assume that all retail employees have somewhere else that they want to be, or that they don't want or need the money.

Basically, I think taking the stance that nobody should work on Thanksgiving is sort of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Raintree on November 24, 2013, 02:18:13 AM
Is this a new thing? I'm Canadian and stores have been open on Thanksgiving for years.

I voted "outrageous" not because I think it's outrageous, but because I agree that stores should be closed some days. When I was in retail, Christmas and New Year's Day were always closed. Now, just about everything is open New Year's Day. I hate that, because it used to be such a pleasant, quiet day, with only a few things open, but mostly just people out for walks doing whatever, and as a retail employee, it was one day I could count on during the holidays to not be scheduled to work and I could do what I wanted (because Christmas had family obligations and was rather frantic). I wouldn't be surprised if Christmas is next.

I do remember when the store I worked at decided that instead of closing at 6 PM on Thanksgiving, it would close at 8. (Normal days it was open to 10). I thought that was a pretty rude thing for them to do to us. So many of us had to race home to get the lukewarm scraps of our dinners just as everyone else was finishing, or families at home very hungry and waiting for us. I'll never forget one customer, right at 8 PM:

Coworker: "Excuse me ma'am, we're closing."
Customer: "You're closing? Already?"
Coworkers: ""Yes, I'm afraid so. Gotta get home to our turkey dinners!"
Customer: "Oh no, it's OK, we've already had it."
Coworker (to me, after): "No, I meant OURS!!"
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: perpetua on November 24, 2013, 04:56:39 AM
I have mixed feelings on this, and we don't do Thanksgiving here so I'm basing my opinion on Christmas day.

On the one hand, nobody *needs* to be shopping for the latest must have gadget or whatever on a big holiday. It won't kill people not to feed corporate machines for one day out of a year.

On the other, I am grateful that some shops that sell essentials are open.

On the subject of working: Retail workers generally know when they sign up for it that they're going to have to work weekends, holidays, etc. It goes with the territory. So to complain about it at a later stage seems a bit much, although having it sprung on you at the last minute when you didn't think you were going to have to, as per Ehelldame's example, is really unfair.

Not everyone celebrates Christmas/Thanksgiving, and to tell the people that don't that they *can't* work and earn extra to pay for essentials, just because your family might have beliefs that they shouldn't, is wrong. That for me falls under 'imposing your values on someone else' and - no.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Sharnita on November 24, 2013, 06:51:46 AM
Another point that just occurred to me - around here a significant percent of shoppers are Canadian.  I don't know that they would venture out to Wal-Mart or Best Buy but even on a regular weekend you can expect that a significant portion of sales involve Canadians. When there are big sales by several stores,  even more people make the trip. Since Thursday is not the Canadian Thankgiving. I wouldn't wonder why they aren't with their families or observing the holiday.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Green Bean on November 24, 2013, 07:15:17 AM
I have mixed feelings on this, and we don't do Thanksgiving here so I'm basing my opinion on Christmas day.

On the one hand, nobody *needs* to be shopping for the latest must have gadget or whatever on a big holiday. It won't kill people not to feed corporate machines for one day out of a year.

On the other, I am grateful that some shops that sell essentials are open.


Perpetua, would you think differently if, instead of some shops open to sell essentials, stores started opening on Christmas with their Boxing Day sales? From what I understand of Boxing Day, I think that may be a better comparison.

For me, I understand both sides. My family slways ate early in the day. i recall many evenings where, by 4-5 pm, the food was put away, the dishes were clean, and family was gone, and i was just bired looking for something to do. I have never awaken to go shopping at midnight, but 8pm the evening before could work.
While I've never worked retail, I have worked on the home office side for a major retailer. I understand the pressure they are under to deliver sales this time of year, because for many of them, as much as half their annual sales will take place in the next several weeks. I'm also happy that mine chose not to open on Thanksgiving, and currently has no plans to do so until they "have to".
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: perpetua on November 24, 2013, 08:02:29 AM
I have mixed feelings on this, and we don't do Thanksgiving here so I'm basing my opinion on Christmas day.

On the one hand, nobody *needs* to be shopping for the latest must have gadget or whatever on a big holiday. It won't kill people not to feed corporate machines for one day out of a year.

On the other, I am grateful that some shops that sell essentials are open.


Perpetua, would you think differently if, instead of some shops open to sell essentials, stores started opening on Christmas with their Boxing Day sales? From what I understand of Boxing Day, I think that may be a better comparison.

I'm not sure what your point is there, Green Bean. I'm agreeing with you. I *don't* see the point of the big stores being open on a holiday. People don't need to go out and buy an Xbox or whatever on Xmas day/Thanksgiving day

But on the other hand, I don't think people who *do* want to work should be prevented from doing so just because some people think those days should be sacred.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: HGolightly on November 24, 2013, 09:41:41 AM
I can see that if the staff working on a holiday were,being compensated with a higher wage that day but that is not the case.  The decision makers will be enjoying a lovely meal with their family without a second thought other than wondering how much money their company is making that day. Unless your state has fair wage laws, the staff will not be compensated with anything other than their usual wage and a long, exhausting day of unreasonable demanding customers.  To compare those that sell electronics, clothes etc to those who also work on the holidays to provide essential services is ludicrous.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: camlan on November 24, 2013, 10:49:19 AM
This thread has made me stop and think about why I feel so strongly that retail workers, because it is mostly retail workers that we are discussing here, should get Thanksgiving off. All of it, which means they shouldn't have to come in at 8 pm or 10 pm to get the store ready for a midnight opening or whatever.

Back in the 1960s, when I was a small child, most stores were closed on Sundays. Not supermarkets and drug stores necessarily, but most retail stores. Malls were completely closed. (In fact, mall parking lots were where parents took teenagers learning to drive to practice, because they were large and empty on Sundays, but had lanes and parking spaces to practice driving skills with.) Most retail stores were also closed on holidays, such as Veterans' Day and Memorial Day and 4th of July, in addition to New Year's, Thanksgiving and Christmas. In Massachusetts, the "blue laws" that kept many stores closed on Sundays lasted until some time in the 1990s.

So, first stores were opened on Sundays. Then they were open on the "minor" holidays like Presidents' Day and Columbus Day. Then on more major days like New Years and 4th of July.

The result is that I've been seeing a decreasing amount of time off on weekends and holidays for retail workers. When you add in their ever-changing shifts, having to badger customers for store loyalty or credit cards, being forced into saying stupid things to their customers (a drug store in my area is now forcing employees to say "Be well!" to everyone instead any sort of normal greeting and I'll bet no one at the corporate offices is running around Be Well-ing the rest of the staff), never knowing when the store is being secret-shopped, putting up with rude customers, and all the other indignities that retail staff puts up with, I just feel that the least they deserve is a day off. Preferably with pay.

What it boils down to, basically, is that I don't think retail jobs need to be the way they are. They could be much better, but people need those jobs and so they put up with poor treatment.

So on Thanksgiving and Black Friday, I will be grateful that they have jobs. And I will stay home, in silent protest that they don't get holidays.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: betty on November 24, 2013, 12:48:47 PM
I voted OTHER but I meant "I don't think stores that sell non-essential items should be open on Thanksgiving." It's one day a year. It's the only major non-religious holiday for which many people have family traditions. Let those who must work, work. Give everyone else one day off.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Hmmmmm on November 24, 2013, 01:43:40 PM
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ann-brenoff/stores-open-on-thanksgiving_b_4149893.html

While agree that many people do not mind working holidays, the author does not address retailers who make working the holiday a term of their employment which is the case for most retail employees. The author even ends by saying that once she became a mother she quit volunteering for the holiday shift. She's obviously not had family members who've missed a holiday been forced to leave the Thanksgiving table early because they had to get to work.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: perpetua on November 24, 2013, 01:52:22 PM
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ann-brenoff/stores-open-on-thanksgiving_b_4149893.html

While agree that many people do not mind working holidays, the author does not address retailers who make working the holiday a term of their employment which is the case for most retail employees. The author even ends by saying that once she became a mother she quit volunteering for the holiday shift. She's obviously not had family members who've missed a holiday been forced to leave the Thanksgiving table early because they had to get to work.

I think this is a grey area, though. If you take a job knowing that part of the terms of your employment is you have to work holidays, then you don't get to complain about it later when you decide you'd rather have the day off.

If, on the other hand, it's sprung on you as a change in the terms, like what happened to Ehelldame's daughter, I agree that that's unfair.  Especially at such late notice when travel plans had already been made.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: *inviteseller on November 24, 2013, 02:28:25 PM
Yes, there are people who might want to work on holidays...people who are desperate for some extra cash, people with no families close by, but for each of them are 10 more who would love to spend time with their families on Thanksgiving.  There is absolutely no reason for the stores to be open on Thanksgiving..none, nada, zip, zilch zero.  There is all the shoppers who will be out Black Friday so close down for one stinking day..the world will not end and your bottom line will not suffer if you can't open until 5 am on Friday instead.  And while hospitals and other care type places that are 24/7 do pay extra for holidays (like my job), they also ask for people to volunteer for the shifts so the people who really do want to work, work and the people who don't, don't.  Retail, in my years of experience, do not get paid anything more than their regular hourly rate and have the threat of being fired if they don't come in on Thanksgiving..sorry little kids, you sit here alone and eat a turkey sandwich while mommy works minimum wage at Kmart because they couldn't wait 24 hours to offer that big screen tv (that they really don't have a lot of stock on) for a $50 savings .
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: baglady on November 24, 2013, 02:35:28 PM
When people take jobs in emergency services, health care, etc., there is the expectation that there will be weekends and yes, holidays that they will have to work. In retail, there has been the expectation that unless it's a convenience store, it will be closed on Thanksgiving and Christmas, even if they're open Memorial Day, Fourth of July, Easter, etc.

The outrage over Thanksgiving openings is coming from the "rules change" -- retail workers used to be able to count on having those days off, and now, not only can they not count on it, many will face the loss of their jobs if they refuse to work. So I can understand the reaction of "What's the big deal -- lots of people have to work holidays, like cops and nurses," but it feels like apples and oranges to me, especially for retail workers who have been at it since before the Thanksgiving opening trend started.

When I worked in a nursing home as a teenager, I actually enjoyed working Thanksgiving and Christmas, because I got to help brighten the day for the residents. I worked early shift, so there was still time to celebrate with my family. And because I was living at home, there was no traveling involved to be with family.

A lot of workplaces that are open on holidays bend over backward to give as many people the day off as possible who want it. They have a skeleton staff, they ask for volunteers (in the sense of willing, not unpaid), they schedule everyone for short shifts, they require only those with the least seniority to work (with the understanding that this is a pay-your-dues thing, and next year you may have sufficient seniority to be off), they allow people to request the shifts they want or switch with one another.

I used to work in a convenience store where everyone was required to work a two-hour shift on major holidays. For Christmas I used to ask for morning hours, so those with families could do the Christmas morning ritual, then I could go celebrate with my friends in the afternoon. I didn't always get it, but I worked around it.

I've never heard of going to the movies on Thanksgiving, but that's just me. Going on Christmas Day is huge, though, and I think that's because by the end of the day on the 25th, many people in the U.S. are Christmased out. There's this huge buildup to the 25th that starts before Thanksgiving, and once the presents are opened and dinner consumed, it's "over," and people are desperate to do something that doesn't scream "Christmas!" -- like going to a movie. It may be a Christmas Day tradition, but it's not a "Christmas" tradition, if you get my drift.

But a movie theater is one of those workplaces that could get by with a skeleton staff/willing "volunteers" and not require everyone to work.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Crochet Addict on November 24, 2013, 06:24:37 PM
Personally, my husband and I both work on Thanksgiving. I work from home and had the option of taking the day off, but as I'm not cooking and other coworkers are, I opted to work. My husband works in a restaurant (apparently, a lot of people like to go out for breakfast Thanksgiving morning, according to him :o). I don't feel one way or another personally about working, but we get to go to his family's for dinner after our shifts. I feel so bad for retail workers who are missing a day with their families. We're trying in general to live a greener/thriftier lifestyle, so this year, we're focusing a lot on making gifts and giving practical things- in other words, items that I don't need to be in any hurry to shop for.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Hmmmmm on November 24, 2013, 08:08:13 PM
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ann-brenoff/stores-open-on-thanksgiving_b_4149893.html

While agree that many people do not mind working holidays, the author does not address retailers who make working the holiday a term of their employment which is the case for most retail employees. The author even ends by saying that once she became a mother she quit volunteering for the holiday shift. She's obviously not had family members who've missed a holiday been forced to leave the Thanksgiving table early because they had to get to work.

I think this is a grey area, though. If you take a job knowing that part of the terms of your employment is you have to work holidays, then you don't get to complain about it later when you decide you'd rather have the day off.

If, on the other hand, it's sprung on you as a change in the terms, like what happened to Ehelldame's daughter, I agree that that's unfair.  Especially at such late notice when travel plans had already been made.

Many companies are modifying the holiday open schedule every year. So 6 years ago you might have started working at a store believing you'd have Thanksgiving off. Three years ago, they decide to start opening at midnight. This year it's at 6pm. But now your fully vested in your 401k and getting 3 weeks vacation and a pretty decent hourly wage. Deciding to leave because of this one change could be a very difficult choice for many.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Asharah on November 24, 2013, 08:27:00 PM
I guess I should be grateful the bank I work in will be closed.

Regarding movie theaters being open. I remember a mini-story in Reader's Digest where the letter-writer had no place to go on Thanksgiving and decided to hit the multiplex at the mall. After two movies, letter-writer noticed the same small group of people who had also sat through the same two movies were now waiting to buy tickets again. Obviously they all also had no place to go. Letter-writer suggested they go to one of the mall restaurants and share Thanksgiving dinner. Everyone enjoyed themselves and the waitress told them how nice it was to see such a happy family on the holidays. ;D
Luckily my sister the Black Friday fiend will not be dashing out to shop at 8pm Thursday night. She'll be watching the Raven's game.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Peppergirl on November 24, 2013, 08:35:39 PM
^ well, I'm no fan of the ravens, but I'd much rather see someone watch them (if they must) than shop on Thanksgiving. Lol.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: zyrs on November 24, 2013, 09:27:52 PM
I have never worked in retail, but I used to work Thanksgiving and Christmas.

The main difference is, where I used to work needed to be staffed because it was a service you didn't want the area to be without (think electricity, water, sewer, hospital - that sort of thing) not retail.

The other difference?  People's schedules were paid attention to and we tried to make sure people got to spend some time with their families.

Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: JoW on November 24, 2013, 09:39:13 PM
I like my holidays in order.  Halloween, then Thanksgiving, then Christmas.  No Christmas before Black Friday.

Some people do have to work - hospitals, police, fire department, snow removal, utilities.  Some retail has to be open - pharmacies and gas stations.  Also hotels and restaurants.    Those people should work and they should be paid well. 

But having WalMart open on Thanksgiving is outrageous.  There's nothing in WalMart that you can't do without for 24 hours.  Its my understanding that those employees are not getting a significant amount of extra money for working those hours.

I didn't know that movie theaters were open on Thanksgiving and Christmas until I read it here.  I don't think they should be.

I probably won't leave my property on Thanksgiving.  I'll be out on Black Friday, but not shopping.  My health club has a full class schedule which they are presenting as "burn the turkey".  I plan to take a class.  And I'm ringing for the Salvation Army that afternoon. 
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Katana_Geldar on November 24, 2013, 10:33:19 PM
What sometimes happens with higher wages on holidays in a small business is that the owners end up doing it all themselves rather than pay staff penalty rates.

DH is going to be working through the mandatory shutdown period at his work through Christmas, so he's working from home. It does mean we get money.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: violinp on November 24, 2013, 11:11:49 PM
I like my holidays in order.  Halloween, then Thanksgiving, then Christmas.  No Christmas before Black Friday.

Some people do have to work - hospitals, police, fire department, snow removal, utilities.  Some retail has to be open - pharmacies and gas stations.  Also hotels and restaurants.    Those people should work and they should be paid well. 

But having WalMart open on Thanksgiving is outrageous.  There's nothing in WalMart that you can't do without for 24 hours.  Its my understanding that those employees are not getting a significant amount of extra money for working those hours.

I didn't know that movie theaters were open on Thanksgiving and Christmas until I read it here.  I don't think they should be.

I probably won't leave my property on Thanksgiving.  I'll be out on Black Friday, but not shopping.  My health club has a full class schedule which they are presenting as "burn the turkey".  I plan to take a class.  And I'm ringing for the Salvation Army that afternoon.

Well, then, what about Easter? Or Hannukah? Or Presidents' Day? Or any other holiday that's used as a gimmick to get people to come to the business? It's not as if every holiday is celebrated by each and every person in the country, and maybe people who don't do Christmas want to see a new movie on Christmas Day. We can't keep people from working on any holiday, or even just the big ones, just because they might want to spend that whole holiday with family.

I work in a theater, so I know how frustrating it is to work on holidays when you'd much rather be with family. That said, we can't enshrine every holiday, else we'd never get anything done. A business is there to make money, not to be inherently charitable to its workers. We do our jobs, and try to make sure that everyone gets at least some time with family that day. That's just how it works.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: hannahmollysmom on November 24, 2013, 11:53:43 PM
I work at a job at the airport that is 24/7. I am working Thanksgiving and Christmas. I've been there 14 years so I'm used to it by now.  My adult children have places to go Thanksgiving, so I am not hurting them by working. I'll have Christmas here on Christmas Eve. My schedule is Sun - Thurs, but I get New Years Day off, so I'm taking a vacation day on the 2nd, which gives me a 4 day vacation.

I actually work for the airport authority, which means all of my bosses and office administration are off that day. I do get compensated, so I really don't mind most of the time. Next year I will have Christmas off as it rotates. Because my job is municipal, I don't get fed, but many of the airlines do have big buffets, and I have many friends there, so someone always brings me a plate.

I voted indifferent, although I do feel those working that day should be compensated. Unfortunately, if you are considered a part time worker, you don't get paid overtime until after 40 hours. And, it seems these days, most retailers hire under part time conditions so they don't have to pay benefits, whether it is a holiday or not.

I can see many a teenage retail worker happy to work though. I mean, when I was in my teens, I found after eating a great dinner, the last thing I wanted to do was hang out with the "old" relatives.

I do feel that retailers should put it out as a volunteer basis, and then fill their holes after.

As far as Black Friday goes, I stay as far away as possible. People are crazy to save a couple of dollars, and I can't handle the crowds, nor do I patience to stand in mile long lines. I much prefer cyber Monday!
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Teacup on November 25, 2013, 12:22:39 AM
I work in retail and fully expected to work some crazy hours on Black Friday.  It comes with the territory.

Maybe I wouldn't have been too upset about working on Thursday if it hadn't been sprung on us two and a half weeks ago.  Oh and by the way, it will still be your usual pay.  And don't forget, we need the store fully staffed because we will be so busy.  And someone needs to go in early to make sure the sale is completely set before opening.

Normally I enjoy working where I do and I guess I should be thankful we aren't open until the early evening, but its really hard not to be upset.  Maybe next year it will be old news and I'll be over it.  We are trying to see if everyone wants to bring some leftovers in with them so we can have some wonderful munchies in the breakroom  :)
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: FauxFoodist on November 25, 2013, 12:51:46 AM
When I lived in LA (actually had moved back to LA after living in SD for three years), I was really surprised to find a few places open on Christmas (like the record store where my friend worked and the movie theater and deli that were close by).  He pointed out to me that not everyone celebrates Christmas, especially in the area where we worked (I worked in the drug store across the parking lot from him, but my store was closed on Christmas).  After he pointed that out to me, I then came to understand why these places were open on Christmas.

So, no, there are no howls of protest from me for retailers and entertainment establishments being open on Christmas.  As others have pointed out, not everyone celebrates Christmas.  Thanksgiving in the US is another story and, I agree, it sucks for those in retail who don't have a choice (an employee told me her friend works in the outlet mall and was mandated to be at work at 4pm on Thanksgiving).

Will I be in the stores Thanksgiving or Black Friday to take advantage of the sales?  No.  I haven't done that in years (actually, not at all that I can remember).  I'm tempted to go to Yankee Candle Company, though, but I won't (they're selling their pillar candles for $5 during the first four hours they are open so the employee told me).  As tempting as that is, I'm not willing to endure craziness for that.  Besides, most of my shopping was done by two weeks before Halloween.  We have three things we still have to pick up (three different places) for his family that we can't purchase online (I bought everything else online).  I have zero interest in going anywhere near the non-grocery stores between now and after Christmas.  I'll admit, though, I *do* plan on us shopping on Black Friday but only because we will be in LA at that time so I want to take advantage of us being down there to get some runners for our house from the garment district (we can get them really inexpensively from there).  I regret that it'll be on Black Friday (which is not at all why I want to go shopping), but I don't know when we'll be in LA again and want to get rugs to cover the freaking cold tile floors in our house.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: perpetua on November 25, 2013, 01:02:39 AM
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ann-brenoff/stores-open-on-thanksgiving_b_4149893.html

While agree that many people do not mind working holidays, the author does not address retailers who make working the holiday a term of their employment which is the case for most retail employees. The author even ends by saying that once she became a mother she quit volunteering for the holiday shift. She's obviously not had family members who've missed a holiday been forced to leave the Thanksgiving table early because they had to get to work.

I think this is a grey area, though. If you take a job knowing that part of the terms of your employment is you have to work holidays, then you don't get to complain about it later when you decide you'd rather have the day off.

If, on the other hand, it's sprung on you as a change in the terms, like what happened to Ehelldame's daughter, I agree that that's unfair.  Especially at such late notice when travel plans had already been made.

Many companies are modifying the holiday open schedule every year. So 6 years ago you might have started working at a store believing you'd have Thanksgiving off. Three years ago, they decide to start opening at midnight. This year it's at 6pm. But now your fully vested in your 401k and getting 3 weeks vacation and a pretty decent hourly wage. Deciding to leave because of this one change could be a very difficult choice for many.

That's true, but many companies modify their operating practice on all sorts of things over the course of a year, not just holidays. If that happens to you (you general) in your job I think it's case of weighing up the options. I don't know what a 401k is (like a pension, perhaps?) but to some it'll be important enough to put up with the terms change, to others it won't be. Jobs change all the time. You get a new boss you don't like, your hours are changed, you don't get a pay rise one year because the company isn't doing so well... lots of people grin and bear changes like that because the bigger picture is more important and the rest of the terms overall are good, so this really shouldn't be any different.

I don't know, I really am conflicted. Like someone says, nobody *needs* junk from Walmart or wherever 365 days a year and it's a bit of a sad indictment on society that we think it's necessary to shop shop shop at all times and don't even get me started on the concept of shopping as a leisure activity (*g*), but on the other hand there are people who a) don't celebrate the holidays and being told what they should or shouldn't do on a holiday they don't celebrate isn't really on or b) would be grateful for those extra hours.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Cricket on November 25, 2013, 03:08:40 AM
I guess I see retail as a bit different to other services that operate on major holidays. Most other professions would not expect a significant upsurge in clients. If other industries experienced a similar increase in clients, many of whom are rude, obnoxious and entitled, I bet there would be a bigger hue and cry about extending holiday trading.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: TinyVulgarUnicorn on November 25, 2013, 04:44:40 AM
I guess I see retail as a bit different to other services that operate on major holidays. Most other professions would not expect a significant upsurge in clients. If other industries experienced a similar increase in clients, many of whom are rude, obnoxious and entitled, I bet there would be a bigger hue and cry about extending holiday trading.

Not sure about other industries, but the medical industry definitely gets a pretty big bump in patients around the holidays.  Holiday stress, alcohol, and traveling really do a number on people.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Waltzing Matilda on November 25, 2013, 05:39:12 AM
We have some of the same issues here in Australia on Anzac Day (April 25). Once upon a time, nothing was open on Anzac day. Lots of people went to their local march in the morning and the purpose of the day was to commemorate the battle and pay tribute / respect to the fallen. Increasingly, retailers are pushing to open from 1pm. I know retail is struggling, but this constant erosion of special days makes them less, well, special. Even if you don't subscribe to the ethos of Thanksgiving, Anzac Day, Canada Day etc etc etc, it's important to spend time with family and friends. I would absolutely hate to work in retail these days. We don't exist (and shouldn't) to ensure retailers a good income.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: camlan on November 25, 2013, 06:11:02 AM
Because of this thread, I've been poking around on the internet looking for info on Thanksgiving openings.

Turns out that Massachusetts, Maine and Rhode Island all prohibit stores from opening on Thanksgiving. Convenience stores, pharmacies, gas stations, restaurants and movie theaters are allowed to open in Massachusetts. No alcohol sales.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: iridaceae on November 25, 2013, 06:20:42 AM
We don't exist (and shouldn't) to ensure retailers a good income.

Um I kind of think humans do. Who else do retailers have to sell to?
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Goosey on November 25, 2013, 07:27:07 AM
Regarding the outrage that the administration (executives, etc) get the holidays off when their hourly employees do not - I would not in a million years begrudge them this. Many executives work 60+ hour work weeks. And when they have "days off", they are often still taking phone calls, etc because they're the decision makers and need to be in contact.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: msulinski on November 25, 2013, 07:31:27 AM
Because of this thread, I've been poking around on the internet looking for info on Thanksgiving openings.

Turns out that Massachusetts, Maine and Rhode Island all prohibit stores from opening on Thanksgiving. Convenience stores, pharmacies, gas stations, restaurants and movie theaters are allowed to open in Massachusetts. No alcohol sales.

This is ridiculous - movie theaters can be open but retail stores cannot?
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Goosey on November 25, 2013, 07:35:36 AM
No alcohol sales???  :o  :P

Seriously though, those restrictions do seem like moral policing to me. It's a free market. There shouldn't be a law prohibiting opening on a holiday. If it's not profitable, it wouldn't be open.

And for goodness sake, let people get their alcohol. Sometimes it's the only way to get through a family meal!
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: *inviteseller on November 25, 2013, 07:51:17 AM
I guess I should be grateful the bank I work in will be closed.

Regarding movie theaters being open. I remember a mini-story in Reader's Digest where the letter-writer had no place to go on Thanksgiving and decided to hit the multiplex at the mall. After two movies, letter-writer noticed the same small group of people who had also sat through the same two movies were now waiting to buy tickets again. Obviously they all also had no place to go. Letter-writer suggested they go to one of the mall restaurants and share Thanksgiving dinner. Everyone enjoyed themselves and the waitress told them how nice it was to see such a happy family on the holidays. ;D
Luckily my sister the Black Friday fiend will not be dashing out to shop at 8pm Thursday night. She'll be watching the Raven's game.

Well, since they are going to lose to my Steelers, maybe she should go shopping!   ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: camlan on November 25, 2013, 07:56:47 AM
No alcohol sales???  :o  :P

Seriously though, those restrictions do seem like moral policing to me. It's a free market. There shouldn't be a law prohibiting opening on a holiday. If it's not profitable, it wouldn't be open.

And for goodness sake, let people get their alcohol. Sometimes it's the only way to get through a family meal!

Ya gotta remember who founded Massachusetts and many of the other New England states. The Puritan influence hasn't quite disappeared yet.

Massachusetts didn't allow stores to open on Sunday until 1994. Alcohol sales on Sunday didn't happen until 2004 (except for stores near the New Hampshire border, which were allowed Sunday sales early in the 1990s).

When stores are always closed on Sunday, you either get good at planning ahead, or you go without. Used to be this way all across the country at one time. And there are still counties in many states that are "dry" with no alcohol stores whatsoever.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Goosey on November 25, 2013, 07:57:26 AM
Oh I know. I live in the bible belt. Doesn't change my feelings on the matter
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: knitwicca on November 25, 2013, 08:25:59 AM
I worked for Wal-Mart when I was in my 20s.  At that time, most employees were hired as full-time with benefits.
That changed with the death of Mr. Sam (Walton).  Today most employees are part-time so they receive no benefits, no over-time pay nor holiday bonus pay. 

I refuse to go to any store of any sort on Black Friday. There is nothing I need desperately enough to stand in line for hours, fight through the crowd to exit a store nor run the risk of assault (inadvertently or not). 

To those who work in professions which are necessary, medical professionals and medical support, law enforcement, fire fighters, military, I offer my heart-felt gratitude.

Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Niamh84 on November 25, 2013, 08:29:56 AM
We don't have Thanksgiving in Ireland but retailers are under increasing pressure to open throughout Christmas time and I don't agree with it but that's because my dad works in retail and it's hard watching him work himself ragged every day for two months.  It used to be that shops weren't open on a Sunday but they all are now.  They would also be closed on Christmas day and St. Stephen's day but they all open on St. Stephen's Day now so my dad works every single day from 25 November to 24 December inclusive and then 26 December to around late January without a single day off.  I just feel really sorry for him and dread the day that shops start to open on Christmas Day as I have no doubt it'll happen at some stage, here's hoping he's retired by then.

No alcohol sales???  :o  :P

Seriously though, those restrictions do seem like moral policing to me. It's a free market. There shouldn't be a law prohibiting opening on a holiday. If it's not profitable, it wouldn't be open.

And for goodness sake, let people get their alcohol. Sometimes it's the only way to get through a family meal!

In Ireland we have one day a year that alcohol sales are prohibited. It's Good Friday (the Friday of Easter Weekend) and it backfires ridiculously.  Most of us have the Friday and Monday off work so everybody stockpiles drink on Thursday night.  You always buy more than you need "just in case, since you won't be able to buy any tomorrow" and pubs can't open so everyone has parties at home.  It is literally one of the biggest drinking days of the year. 
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: lkb on November 25, 2013, 08:38:30 AM
Iíve never, ever done Black Friday and I donít intend to. Nor do I ever intend to shop on Thanksgiving Day (unless itís to pick up a prescription for a seriously ill family member). My sister, on the other hand, who is a widow and a mom of a teen daughter and doesnít really have anything to do on Thanksgiving or the day after, go all out: planning the route etc.
At first I was outraged by Black Friday creeping into the holiday, but Iím understanding more about people who do it: Thanksgiving or Christmas are not their holidays. Sad, imho, but there it is.
I was highly amused by an article I read recently (sorry, donít remember where), that noted that Black Friday sales were actually starting November 1 in many places. The prediction was that pretty soon Black Friday wonít matter because the shopping season will start three weeks earlier than it does now and weíll get our Thanksgiving back. ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Venus193 on November 25, 2013, 08:39:57 AM
Wow.

I remember the days when nothing was open on Sundays and if you ran out of milk to make pancakes with, too bad unless you were willing to go to a deli and pay twice as much.

Liquor stores in NYC are open on Sundays now but that's fairly new and happened more or less unannounced.  The ones in my area are open the same hours on Sunday as other days of the week.  A friend on the Upper West Side says the ones by her are closed; I suspect they didn't do much business on Sundays.

I realize that some people want to work on Thanksgiving if there is extra pay involved or if they are miles away from family.  However, I agree with Ehelldame and others who protest that working on that day (or Christmas Day) should not be a condition of continued employment.  It is insanely unfair to force employees to cancel travel plans or absent themselves from a gathering of family or friends.

And nobody needs more frenzy than we already have.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Lorie_P on November 25, 2013, 08:58:52 AM
It is just so sad that retailers are more interested in sales than their employees. I found a list of stores who won't open on Thanksgiving and will spend my money there. If everyone did that, the retailers will notice.

If you notice most of the stores who are open on Thanksgiving are hurting sales wise for the year. It reminds me of a last ditch effort of a dying man. I have a feeling that they will realise that the cost of doing business on Thanksgiving won't be worth the tiny profits they earn. Most of the stuff sold will be low profit to negative profit margin items during the "sales."
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: GlitterIsMyDrug on November 25, 2013, 09:05:40 AM
Most of the employees were women

I don't understand why it matters they were mostly women. Is it less important for men to be with their families? Are no men cooking, caring for children, wanting to be with family? If a mostly male dominated work place is open on Thanksgiving, does it all of a sudden become ok?
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Venus193 on November 25, 2013, 09:21:08 AM
I suspect that many of these women are heads of households and the main breadwinners for their children.  Losing the job if they refuse to work that day rather than make a turkey dinner for the children is an ugly threat.

As has been pointed out, big discounts lead to smaller and smaller profits and may make it cost-inefficient to have department stores open on Thanksgiving Day.   As it is department store employees endure irregular weeks and hours and mandatory overtime this time of year, which means less time for family, friends, or even themselves.  My friend Blanche would get sick at least once and get so stressed out from working at this time of year and making Thanksgiving Day mandatory certainly wouldn't make this any better.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: GlitterIsMyDrug on November 25, 2013, 09:33:53 AM
Turns out that Massachusetts, Maine and Rhode Island all prohibit stores from opening on Thanksgiving. Convenience stores, pharmacies, gas stations, restaurants and movie theaters are allowed to open in Massachusetts. No alcohol sales.

Well that just seems mean. I don't care about not going to Target, but no booze? Come on! I've gotta deal with family!!  ;)

I did just find out that Big Lots will be open form 7am-11pm on Thanksgiving day. That just made me go  :o they aren't opened like that on regular days. And they aren't doing that good of sales. And they're already a discount store.

I know the dollar store near me will be opened but just in the morning (they close at noon or 1...I think). I asked one of the employees about she told me it was because every year they get a decent number of people who need some last minute item or other. She also told me they have a very nice manager who gets them breakfast for having to work the holiday and gets them out of there right on time, so she doesn't mind. Apparently they also get Black Friday of if they work Thanksgiving. You ask the right employee the right question and they'll give you all kinds of info.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: GlitterIsMyDrug on November 25, 2013, 09:36:16 AM
I suspect that many of these women are heads of households and the main breadwinners for their children.  Losing the job if they refuse to work that day rather than make a turkey dinner for the children is an ugly threat.

But it'd be less ugly for men?

I guess I just don't get why it matters if the employees are men, women, or space aliens. If you're against stores being open on thanksgiving, you're against stores being open on thanksgiving. If you're against women not being at home with their children on holidays, that's a whole other bird (pun totally intended).
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: GlitterIsMyDrug on November 25, 2013, 09:45:21 AM
Iíve never, ever done Black Friday and I donít intend to. Nor do I ever intend to shop on Thanksgiving Day (unless itís to pick up a prescription for a seriously ill family member). My sister, on the other hand, who is a widow and a mom of a teen daughter and doesnít really have anything to do on Thanksgiving or the day after, go all out: planning the route etc.
At first I was outraged by Black Friday creeping into the holiday, but Iím understanding more about people who do it: Thanksgiving or Christmas are not their holidays. Sad, imho, but there it is.

Why is it sad? Because they don't celebrate their holidays the way you celebrate yours? I'm looking forward to my black friday shopping (I barley want to put on pants on Thanksgiving day, so I'll pretty much hit up a movie and be done), and I don't even want electronics or big stuff. I just like going out.

I have friends who in live in the states but are originally from somewhere else, so they couldn't care less about Thanksgiving. It's not sad, it's just not their culture. And plenty of non-christian people don't do Christmas. I fail to see what's sad about that.

Everyone's family make-up and traditions are different. Doesn't make it sad, just different.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Yvaine on November 25, 2013, 09:54:49 AM
Iíve never, ever done Black Friday and I donít intend to. Nor do I ever intend to shop on Thanksgiving Day (unless itís to pick up a prescription for a seriously ill family member). My sister, on the other hand, who is a widow and a mom of a teen daughter and doesnít really have anything to do on Thanksgiving or the day after, go all out: planning the route etc.
At first I was outraged by Black Friday creeping into the holiday, but Iím understanding more about people who do it: Thanksgiving or Christmas are not their holidays. Sad, imho, but there it is.

Why is it sad? Because they don't celebrate their holidays the way you celebrate yours? I'm looking forward to my black friday shopping (I barley want to put on pants on Thanksgiving day, so I'll pretty much hit up a movie and be done), and I don't even want electronics or big stuff. I just like going out.

I have friends who in live in the states but are originally from somewhere else, so they couldn't care less about Thanksgiving. It's not sad, it's just not their culture. And plenty of non-christian people don't do Christmas. I fail to see what's sad about that.

Everyone's family make-up and traditions are different. Doesn't make it sad, just different.

This.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Venus193 on November 25, 2013, 09:58:40 AM
Glitter, I fail to see how anyone whose work is not emergency, safety, or infrastructure-related should be required to work on Thanksgiving Day or face termination.  This is just plain wrong.

As to my comment about women, it relates to how many of these women could be divorced or single mothers whose income makes or breaks their finances.  I do not see that this requires further explanation.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Syfygeek on November 25, 2013, 10:46:25 AM
I worked in retail, both as an hourly person and as management, and when I left retail, I promised myself I would never ever shop Black Friday.

One thing retailers need to realize is that day cares aren't open on holidays, and private babysitters might not want to keep your child on Thanksgiving & Christmas. If there's no family around, you're stuck paying someone big bucks, if you can even find anyone.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: padua on November 25, 2013, 11:33:29 AM
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ann-brenoff/stores-open-on-thanksgiving_b_4149893.html

While agree that many people do not mind working holidays, the author does not address retailers who make working the holiday a term of their employment which is the case for most retail employees. The author even ends by saying that once she became a mother she quit volunteering for the holiday shift. She's obviously not had family members who've missed a holiday been forced to leave the Thanksgiving table early because they had to get to work.

I think this is a grey area, though. If you take a job knowing that part of the terms of your employment is you have to work holidays, then you don't get to complain about it later when you decide you'd rather have the day off.

If, on the other hand, it's sprung on you as a change in the terms, like what happened to Ehelldame's daughter, I agree that that's unfair.  Especially at such late notice when travel plans had already been made.

Many companies are modifying the holiday open schedule every year. So 6 years ago you might have started working at a store believing you'd have Thanksgiving off. Three years ago, they decide to start opening at midnight. This year it's at 6pm. But now your fully vested in your 401k and getting 3 weeks vacation and a pretty decent hourly wage. Deciding to leave because of this one change could be a very difficult choice for many.

i also feel that's somewhat difficult in today's economy. My husband is looking for work now and would be happy to just get a job. doesn't mean he shouldn't be upset or disappointed he doesn't get to spend time with us on the holidays just because his works demands him to be working that day.

and as someone else mentioned, i think it is an extra hardship for single parent households or even for duel parent households where both partners are working- childcares aren't open or charge excessive fees for services on holidays. for most of us, that would make working on those days a bit... useless, as it would cost as much for someone to watch our children (if not more) as we would be earning.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Biker Granny on November 25, 2013, 11:34:02 AM
I usually do shop on Black Friday...not this year mainly because I just don't see anything out there that interests me.

I do not and will not shop on Thanksgiving Day.
I feel that every non essential place of business should be closed.
I know of a store call B&H photo that will be open Thanksgiving Day.  Really?  You need that framed or processed THAT day?
Anyone entering into a career that involves 24/7 hours knows going in that working the holidays is part of the deal.  Been there done that...didn't complain because it was part of the territory.

I've had a year to plan my Holiday.  If I forget one thing it's my bad.

Why should others have to work? (And I will also include the players and support staff in the non-essential personel. While I do enjoy watching the games, I won't go crazy if they aren't on TV.)

If I can't entertain myself for one single day (or two if you include Christmas)...then there is something seriously wrong with me.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: padua on November 25, 2013, 11:40:49 AM
Well, then, what about Easter? Or Hannukah? Or Presidents' Day? Or any other holiday that's used as a gimmick to get people to come to the business? It's not as if every holiday is celebrated by each and every person in the country, and maybe people who don't do Christmas want to see a new movie on Christmas Day. We can't keep people from working on any holiday, or even just the big ones, just because they might want to spend that whole holiday with family.

I work in a theater, so I know how frustrating it is to work on holidays when you'd much rather be with family. That said, we can't enshrine every holiday, else we'd never get anything done. A business is there to make money, not to be inherently charitable to its workers. We do our jobs, and try to make sure that everyone gets at least some time with family that day. That's just how it works.

i don't think anyone feels it imperative that every holiday have its due. i've never seen any protests for stores and theatres to be closed on valentines' day. and that's probably the most gimicky holiday out there. it would be nice, however, to have a couple holidays a year enshrined to ensure people get to spend time with their families (while getting holiday pay). or at the least, get paid extra to work that day without feeling forced into doing so.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Delete My Account on November 25, 2013, 12:02:07 PM
Well if the argument for retailers staying open on Thanksgiving is that not everyone celebrates it, then why doesn't that apply to all industries , i.e. office workers? I'm sure not everyone in every industry celebrates either, so why should retail workers - the lowest paid industry - be singled out?

(I say this as a non-retail worker - though I was in that industry for 10 years - and a non-American)
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Amara on November 25, 2013, 12:13:25 PM
It doesn't matter what anyone chooses to do or not do on Thanksgiving/Christmas. It matters not if they want to be with family or spend the day by themselves watching television and eating bonbons. What does matter is that these two days have traditionally been time off ones for the retail industry. What also matters is that people, excluding those in essential services, have a choice, especially low-paid retail workers who really work almost the entire year.

I am in higher education and we got fifteen holidays a year as well as sick time and vacation time. This year we added one more paid holiday and two provisional ones (for which we can choose to go unpaid, use comp time or vacation days). Delivery services like UPS and FedEx get only six per year. But, again leaving aside essential services, retail workers only got two--and now they are not even getting that.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Susiqzer on November 25, 2013, 02:08:06 PM
No alcohol sales???  :o  :P

Seriously though, those restrictions do seem like moral policing to me. It's a free market. There shouldn't be a law prohibiting opening on a holiday. If it's not profitable, it wouldn't be open.

And for goodness sake, let people get their alcohol. Sometimes it's the only way to get through a family meal!

Baby steps. We've only been allowed to buy alcohol on Sundays for a couple of years around here!

Massachusetts is one giant ball of contradiction, and we love it that way.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: TinyVulgarUnicorn on November 25, 2013, 03:12:04 PM
I completely agree with eHell Dame.  My mom used to work in retail and it used to be that she would have Thanksgiving weekend off.  Then it turned into working the weekend, but having Thursday and Friday off.  Then it turned into having thanksgiving off, but working Wednesday and Friday.  Then one year she was told she was working Thanksgiving...with no extra pay...and if you didn't show up for your shift you would be written up and most likely terminated.  She did that for two years before the store closed. 

I think it's fine that some people don't celebrate Thanksgiving, but I don't think it's okay to force people who do celebrate this holiday to work if they don't want to.  I get that some people don't want to celebrate Thanksgiving, but that shouldn't be the deciding force for the vast majority of retail workers in the United States who I'm willing to bet would probably prefer to have Thanksgiving off.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Venus193 on November 25, 2013, 04:09:20 PM
Another consideration:

When I was a child department stores weren't even open on Sundays.  They also closed earlier than they do now and Christmas merchandise didn't appear until November.  This is no longer the case.

Now most stores are displaying Christmas merchandise even before Halloween.  They're open full days on Saturdays and Sundays.  There is no good reason for them to be open on Thanksgiving Day.

Also, is anyone else old enough to remember Christmas Club bank accounts?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_club

http://www.bankrate.com/finance/personal-finance/christmas-club-accounts-1.aspx

If most of the checks were issued on or near December 1st, the shopping season could be said to begin there.  However, most people today are using credit or ATM cards for such shopping.

The economy isn't going to be turned around by adding yet one more shopping day to the calendar.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Hmmmmm on November 25, 2013, 04:18:16 PM
Another consideration:

When I was a child department stores weren't even open on Sundays.  They also closed earlier than they do now and Christmas merchandise didn't appear until November.  This is no longer the case.

Now most stores are displaying Christmas merchandise even before Halloween.  They're open full days on Saturdays and Sundays.  There is no good reason for them to be open on Thanksgiving Day.

Also, is anyone else old enough to remember Christmas Club bank accounts?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_club

http://www.bankrate.com/finance/personal-finance/christmas-club-accounts-1.aspx

If most of the checks were issued on or near December 1st, the shopping season could be said to begin there.  However, most people today are using credit or ATM cards for such shopping.

The economy isn't going to be turned around by adding yet one more shopping day to the calendar.

My savings and loan still has Christmas bank accounts. A co-worker who was a single mom always set one up every January because she knew it was how she'd keep herself out of trouble come December.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Venus193 on November 25, 2013, 04:54:23 PM
I haven't seen ads for them in so long that I thought they no longer existed.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: katycoo on November 25, 2013, 05:59:45 PM
No alcohol sales???  :o  :P

Seriously though, those restrictions do seem like moral policing to me. It's a free market. There shouldn't be a law prohibiting opening on a holiday. If it's not profitable, it wouldn't be open.

And for goodness sake, let people get their alcohol. Sometimes it's the only way to get through a family meal!

Buy it the day before in preparation.  And honestly - its not about restricting the retailer.  Its about protecting the employee.

We don't have Thanksgiving in Ireland but retailers are under increasing pressure to open throughout Christmas time and I don't agree with it but that's because my dad works in retail and it's hard watching him work himself ragged every day for two months.  It used to be that shops weren't open on a Sunday but they all are now.  They would also be closed on Christmas day and St. Stephen's day but they all open on St. Stephen's Day now so my dad works every single day from 25 November to 24 December inclusive and then 26 December to around late January without a single day off.  I just feel really sorry for him and dread the day that shops start to open on Christmas Day as I have no doubt it'll happen at some stage, here's hoping he's retired by then.

Here our labor laws would prevent you from being rostered that many days in a row without a break.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: immadz on November 25, 2013, 06:31:35 PM
I voted that I didn't care one way or another. However, after reading the thread, I feel the reasoning needs to be clarified a little. Are those opposed to thanksgiving shopping opposed to it

1. because of the general corporate greed it represents.
2. because the workers who are running these stores are being treated poorly.
or
3. because it is a day to be with family

If it is (3) I have to wonder why all private sector service industries are not held to the same standard. Restaurants, hotels, movies, drive through coffee places all of them are not "essential" but lots of them are open through the holiday and have a staff.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Delete My Account on November 25, 2013, 06:32:57 PM
No alcohol sales???  :o  :P

Seriously though, those restrictions do seem like moral policing to me. It's a free market. There shouldn't be a law prohibiting opening on a holiday. If it's not profitable, it wouldn't be open.

And for goodness sake, let people get their alcohol. Sometimes it's the only way to get through a family meal!

Buy it the day before in preparation.  And honestly - its not about restricting the retailer.  Its about protecting the employee.

Exactly. Plus your need for alcohol - a non-essential item - should hardly trump someone's right to a day off. And this is coming from someone who is MARRIED to wine.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: CocoCamm on November 25, 2013, 06:44:54 PM
I love Black Friday shopping. For my mom and I it's almost as big a deal as thanksgiving!

I do not feel bad for anyone who has to work regardless of what position they hold. Thems the breaks sometimes. I say this as someone who has worked on holidays. I didn't like it but I paid my dues and advanced to positions in companies that didn't require me to work holidays.

Oh and the notion that an average retail worker should be treated like a CEO when it comes to working holidays is laughable. Should they also get the same pay? Same benefits and vacation time? I don't think so. Being on the bottom of the ladder stinks but I just used it as incentive to get out of those positions.





Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Goosey on November 25, 2013, 07:06:00 PM
No alcohol sales???  :o  :P

Seriously though, those restrictions do seem like moral policing to me. It's a free market. There shouldn't be a law prohibiting opening on a holiday. If it's not profitable, it wouldn't be open.

And for goodness sake, let people get their alcohol. Sometimes it's the only way to get through a family meal!

Buy it the day before in preparation.  And honestly - its not about restricting the retailer.  Its about protecting the employee.

Exactly. Plus your need for alcohol - a non-essential item - should hardly trump someone's right to a day off. And this is coming from someone who is MARRIED to wine.

That's hardly what I said. And since gas stations, etc are "allowed" to be open, there's really no employee-protecting reason to not sell alcohol.

And it is moral policing. If you happen to agree with their moral stance, it's easier to swallow.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Delete My Account on November 25, 2013, 07:07:11 PM
I love Black Friday shopping. For my mom and I it's almost as big a deal as thanksgiving!

I do not feel bad for anyone who has to work regardless of what position they hold. Thems the breaks sometimes. I say this as someone who has worked on holidays. I didn't like it but I paid my dues and advanced to positions in companies that didn't require me to work holidays.

Oh and the notion that an average retail worker should be treated like a CEO when it comes to working holidays is laughable. Should they also get the same pay? Same benefits and vacation time? I don't think so. Being on the bottom of the ladder stinks but I just used it as incentive to get out of those positions.

This is exactly why retail workers are treated so poorly: because of their low pay and position on the totem pole, so they're seen as "lees than" and not worthy of respect. Of course they're not asking for the same pay and benefits as a CEO. It's a matter of not having to work a holiday they're used to having off. And "if you don't like it, find a better job" isn't so easy for everyone. People have different circumstances and they don't always have the opportunities or resources to do so.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Delete My Account on November 25, 2013, 07:11:29 PM
No alcohol sales???  :o  :P

Seriously though, those restrictions do seem like moral policing to me. It's a free market. There shouldn't be a law prohibiting opening on a holiday. If it's not profitable, it wouldn't be open.

And for goodness sake, let people get their alcohol. Sometimes it's the only way to get through a family meal!

Buy it the day before in preparation.  And honestly - its not about restricting the retailer.  Its about protecting the employee.

Exactly. Plus your need for alcohol - a non-essential item - should hardly trump someone's right to a day off. And this is coming from someone who is MARRIED to wine.

That's hardly what I said. And since gas stations, etc are "allowed" to be open, there's really no employee-protecting reason to not sell alcohol.

And it is moral policing. If you happen to agree with their moral stance, it's easier to swallow.

That's hardly what *I* said. I don't see anywhere in my posts where I made it a moral issue, nor is my stance coloured by that.

I also don't agree that it's moral policing. It may be your opinion, but it certainly isn't mine.

I am so glad I no longer work retail.


Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Goosey on November 25, 2013, 07:17:37 PM
How is it not moral policing if it's clearly not to protect the employee since he/she is still working?
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Delete My Account on November 25, 2013, 07:21:23 PM
How is it not moral policing if it's clearly not to protect the employee since he/she is still working?

I don't know. i used to be a retail worker so this is a sensitive issue for me. If I continue to respond this might get heated and I don't want the thread to get locked again.

Besides, I thought this was an etiquette site, not about morals.

Bowing out.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: katycoo on November 25, 2013, 07:32:36 PM
How is it not moral policing if it's clearly not to protect the employee since he/she is still working?

The orginal ban was to protect the workers.  Clearly that is eroding with time.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Amara on November 25, 2013, 07:59:57 PM
Please, please, please, I beg of you: no arguing over moral vs. whatever. This thread was locked once, and I for one am very happy it was re-opened. The discussion is fascinating. Please do not escalate a disagreement into an argument. It's unpleasant and it's likely to lose us this ongoing thread.


Quote
I voted that I didn't care one way or another. However, after reading the thread, I feel the reasoning needs to be clarified a little. Are those opposed to thanksgiving shopping opposed to it

1. because of the general corporate greed it represents.
2. because the workers who are running these stores are being treated poorly.
or
3. because it is a day to be with family

If it is (3) I have to wonder why all private sector service industries are not held to the same standard. Restaurants, hotels, movies, drive through coffee places all of them are not "essential" but lots of them are open through the holiday and have a staff.
I am opposed to it for #1 and #2 in addition to my strong feeling about corporate America pushing shopping into and onto everything as the ultimate cure-all: holidays, sorrow, happiness, satisfaction, citizenship, etc. And I don't like it.


Hey, you kids, get off my lawn!
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Sharnita on November 25, 2013, 08:09:31 PM
I kind of get that but I think the reality is that businesses exist to make money and retail businesses exist to make money by getting people to buy more stuff. And when they make more money they can increase hours, hire more staff,  etc.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Amara on November 25, 2013, 08:30:52 PM
But we are talking about two days of the year, Sharnita. That leaves 363 days for people to "shop till they drop."
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Sharnita on November 25, 2013, 08:41:09 PM
And if it were two days that came six months prior to the gift giving season then retailers wouldn't be seeing the profits they do. It might be "just" two days but the timing is pretty crucial.

It would be nice if life guards working the beach on Independence Day got the day off to observe the patriotic holiday.  Unfortunately,  timing places it on the 4th of July. If it came on January 4th a lot more lifeguards would get the holiday off. If Thanksgiving was several months away from Christmas retail probably wouldn't open.  It isn't the number of days,  it is their proximity to the biggest gift giving holiday.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Katana_Geldar on November 25, 2013, 09:38:34 PM
On that note, try having time off during tax time if you work in an accounting office.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Jelaza on November 25, 2013, 09:45:33 PM
It is just so sad that retailers are more interested in sales than their employees. I found a list of stores who won't open on Thanksgiving and will spend my money there. If everyone did that, the retailers will notice.

Any chance of getting a copy of that list?  Is it online somewhere?

I voted "Outrageous" but my thought is more that the holidays should be "respected" as opposed to "sacred".  The elimination of one of the very few guaranteed days off that retail workers had shows just how little respect they get from their employers these days.  Even for those who don't celebrate Thanksgiving, the chance to get a day of R&R before being subjected to the extremely stressful and busy Black Friday is a lifesaver (yes, I used to work retail, back when we got Thanksgiving off, and opened on time or only a couple of hours early on Black Friday).

This year, my sister's SO works from Thursday evening opening (I think it's 8 PM) til 5 AM Friday, then again at 5 PM Friday.  And they expect him to be able to perform well?  It's ridiculous.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: TinyVulgarUnicorn on November 25, 2013, 10:08:45 PM
And if it were two days that came six months prior to the gift giving season then retailers wouldn't be seeing the profits they do. It might be "just" two days but the timing is pretty crucial.

It would be nice if life guards working the beach on Independence Day got the day off to observe the patriotic holiday.  Unfortunately,  timing places it on the 4th of July. If it came on January 4th a lot more lifeguards would get the holiday off. If Thanksgiving was several months away from Christmas retail probably wouldn't open.  It isn't the number of days,  it is their proximity to the biggest gift giving holiday.

From what I found on Google most lifeguards are seasonal so chances are most lifeguards get Christmas and Thanksgiving off so they get a few holidays off at least.  Even if they don't I would think that lifeguard jobs tend to fall within essential jobs like hospital workers and paramedics to name a few. 
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: kareng57 on November 25, 2013, 10:22:13 PM
Another consideration:

When I was a child department stores weren't even open on Sundays.  They also closed earlier than they do now and Christmas merchandise didn't appear until November.  This is no longer the case.

Now most stores are displaying Christmas merchandise even before Halloween.  They're open full days on Saturdays and Sundays.  There is no good reason for them to be open on Thanksgiving Day.

Also, is anyone else old enough to remember Christmas Club bank accounts?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_club

http://www.bankrate.com/finance/personal-finance/christmas-club-accounts-1.aspx

If most of the checks were issued on or near December 1st, the shopping season could be said to begin there.  However, most people today are using credit or ATM cards for such shopping.

The economy isn't going to be turned around by adding yet one more shopping day to the calendar.

With your last sentence - if the stores serve mainly the local crowd - I agree, revenues will not likely be increased.  As a matter of fact, when Sunday shopping was first proposed in my neck-of-the-woods, even the major department stores were against it.  "Local" people would not likely purchase more simply because the store was open on one more day, and the store would of course have increased overhead.  But, the barn-door was opened when regulations were relaxed in established tourist-areas, allowing them to open on Sundays - and, when suburbanites had become accustomed to going to Downtown to shop on Sundays - the barn-door had to stay open, and the suburban malls followed suit.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: LeveeWoman on November 25, 2013, 10:23:59 PM
A few years ago, I lived in a large, metro area in which pharmacies and grocery stores took turns. They did it themselves, coming together to make sure that they took care of their customers and employees.

Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Joeschmo on November 25, 2013, 10:41:34 PM
I worked for Wal-Mart when I was in my 20s.  At that time, most employees were hired as full-time with benefits.
That changed with the death of Mr. Sam (Walton).  Today most employees are part-time so they receive no benefits, no over-time pay nor holiday bonus pay. 

I refuse to go to any store of any sort on Black Friday. There is nothing I need desperately enough to stand in line for hours, fight through the crowd to exit a store nor run the risk of assault (inadvertently or not). 

To those who work in professions which are necessary, medical professionals and medical support, law enforcement, fire fighters, military, I offer my heart-felt gratitude.

I have been thinking about Walmart's evolving treatment of employees and how other retail has followed throughout this thread.  I remember when I worked there some of the loooong time employees were never scheduled on weekends because after 12pm Saturday and anytime on Sunday they were paid time and a half.  At my location new employees got a $1/hr shift differential at these times plus after 5pm during the week.  I think the trend has gone too far but if you haven't put your foot down on patronizing extended hours/open on Sundays/24hr stores you have had a hand in the decline to open on Thanksgiving.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: lkb on November 26, 2013, 02:09:53 AM
I apologize for my previously clumsily worded post upthread. I did not mean to sound culturally/religiously superior but I can see where it sounded that way.
What I intended was quite the opposite: I actually meant I felt sad that society pretty much shuts down by the dominant culture, leaving those who don't celebrate those holidays with not a whole lot to do.  Also, the image conveyed by the dominant culture with Black Friday madness does not exactly make that culture look good.

Again I apologize, I did not mean to offend.

On another note, one thing I hate about all the Black Friday hoo-ha is the greed. I think that the whole idea of Black Friday and the holiday shopping season was to buy gifts for other people. With all the madness that goes on, I somehow cannot believe that all those people are out there to buy the plasma flat-screen as a gift for someone else.

Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Hmmmmm on November 26, 2013, 02:34:09 AM
I apologize for my previously clumsily worded post upthread. I did not mean to sound culturally/religiously superior but I can see where it sounded that way.
What I intended was quite the opposite: I actually meant I felt sad that society pretty much shuts down by the dominant culture, leaving those who don't celebrate those holidays with not a whole lot to do.  Also, the image conveyed by the dominant culture with Black Friday madness does not exactly make that culture look good.

Again I apologize, I did not mean to offend.

On another note, one thing I hate about all the Black Friday hoo-ha is the greed. I think that the whole idea of Black Friday and the holiday shopping season was to buy gifts for other people. With all the madness that goes on, I somehow cannot believe that all those people are out there to buy the plasma flat-screen as a gift for someone else.
My mom owned a womens clothing store, I worked retail in HS and college, and my sister had a career in retail for 20 years ending it as a store manager for a large department store. I don't dislike the retail industry. I actually enjoyed working retail during the holidays for the most part.

I have no issue with stores being open on the Friday after Thanksgiving. It's been a traditional shopping day for decades. I also have no issue with people taking advantage of the flat screen tv sales as their family Christmas present. I don't see it as greedy on the part of retailers or materialistic for consumers. It was just a good day that a vast majority had off work and no school so a food time to shop.

I think retail employees know their Black Friday work day is going to be long and tiring. But they also know they'll have a day off during the week to do their own shopping during less hectic times.

But I just don't think it's necessary to have retail stores open on Thanksgiving Day. It used to be the one National Holiday that most people in non-critical or hospitality industry had off. A good time for family and friends to plan to get together. Expanding to having more businesses open on this one holiday in my opinion doesn't improve overall quality of life. I'm sorry of you are someone who doesn't have the desire or the ability to celebrate Thanksgiving. But there are other things that can be done that day that doesn't involve shopping.

Btw... We were discussing this at dinner tonight . DS informed me there is actually a Black Friday death count website. We looked and one tragically seems to be directly connected to crazy shoppers and a handful of injuries nationwide. We all expected these numbers to be higher because of all the media hype.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Sharnita on November 26, 2013, 04:28:31 AM
dirtyweasel, a lot of retail places have hired seasonal employees as well.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Ehelldame on November 26, 2013, 08:22:51 AM


But I just don't think it's necessary to have retail stores open on Thanksgiving Day. It used to be the one National Holiday that most people in non-critical or hospitality industry had off. A good time for family and friends to plan to get together. Expanding to having more businesses open on this one holiday in my opinion doesn't improve overall quality of life. I'm sorry of you are someone who doesn't have the desire or the ability to celebrate Thanksgiving. But there are other things that can be done that day that doesn't involve shopping.



I view Thanksgiving as nationally and culturally equivalent to Chinese New Year.   Everyone travels home to be with family and eat holiday specific foods.   Thanksgiving is not racially, ethnically, religiously exclusive.   All people can gather and thank the deity of their choice for the blessings of life.   And even atheists benefit by expressing thankfulness to others.   Having a day, nationally, where we all choose to gather with family or friends, to share in a common meal, to reflect on the past year, and to express gratitude I see as a positive thing for the soul of the country.   
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: camlan on November 26, 2013, 09:29:19 AM


But I just don't think it's necessary to have retail stores open on Thanksgiving Day. It used to be the one National Holiday that most people in non-critical or hospitality industry had off. A good time for family and friends to plan to get together. Expanding to having more businesses open on this one holiday in my opinion doesn't improve overall quality of life. I'm sorry of you are someone who doesn't have the desire or the ability to celebrate Thanksgiving. But there are other things that can be done that day that doesn't involve shopping.



I view Thanksgiving as nationally and culturally equivalent to Chinese New Year.   Everyone travels home to be with family and eat holiday specific foods.   Thanksgiving is not racially, ethnically, religiously exclusive.   All people can gather and thank the deity of their choice for the blessings of life.   And even atheists benefit by expressing thankfulness to others.   Having a day, nationally, where we all choose to gather with family or friends, to share in a common meal, to reflect on the past year, and to express gratitude I see as a positive thing for the soul of the country.

I agree with this. Thanksgiving is a national holiday. Granted, there are some religions that don't celebrate holidays. And individuals may choose not to celebrate Thanksgiving. But that doesn't make the day not-a-holiday for the majority of US citizens.

Celebrate it however you wish--joining up with family, avoiding toxic family, cocooning in bed for the day with a book, hiking, biking, binging on ice cream.

It's a holiday. It's a day off. Enough people *have * to work that day. Why make so many more work, and in the process, disrupt the celebration for their families?
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Lady Snowdon on November 26, 2013, 10:21:36 AM
I find it interesting that I'm seeing articles that list Sam's Club as being closed on Thanksgiving Day, while Wal-Mart, its parent company, will be open.  I wonder if it's a demographics thing that's causing Sam's Club to remain closed?
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: MrTango on November 26, 2013, 10:35:40 AM
I refuse to shop on Thanksgiving (and this year, since everyone's coming to our house, there's no reason for me to even go outside).

I figure that people who actually go shopping on Thanksgiving are an even bigger part of the problem than the store-owners who decide to force their employees to work.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: lmyrs on November 26, 2013, 05:15:33 PM
I honestly cannot make the distinction in my head as to why it's so horrendous for WalMart or Target or Macys to be open but the Applebees and the Olive Garden and Cineplex Theatre are good to go. It does not make sense to me why someone who would be outraged on behalf of the poor Target cashier isn't giving a second thought to the theatre usher and waiter.

I worked retail in the 90s. We were closed Xmas Day. That was it. (Though we did close at 4pm on Xmas Eve.) You HAD to work either Dec 24 or Dec 26. You couldn't have both off. Other holidays were paid holiday pay when you worked.

And as for the corporate management not working on holidays? Well, I don't work in retail. I do work in the head office for a company that has a 24 hour support line, a sales call centre and retail outlets. There are many employees that are either working or on call for every major holiday. I am not one of them. But, when Operator Sally goes home at the end of her shift on Easter Sunday, she is off the clock. I can leave the country on vacation and I still have to answer calls and emails. And if I get a call or email on Xmas Day or Thanksgiving, I have to answer that too.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: magicdomino on November 26, 2013, 05:27:48 PM
I started to reply that Applebees and Olive Garden aren't open, at least in the evening, then remembered that it was back in 1995 that I spent Thanksgiving evening looking for an open fast food place.  My mother and I were going to go out for dinner, but she wasn't feeling well.  By the time she decided that she didn't want to go out at all and I went out to pick something up, it was after 6:00 pm.  I didn't check Chinese or pizza places because Mother didn't want those, but every other place was closed.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Joeschmo on November 26, 2013, 05:34:48 PM


But I just don't think it's necessary to have retail stores open on Thanksgiving Day. It used to be the one National Holiday that most people in non-critical or hospitality industry had off. A good time for family and friends to plan to get together. Expanding to having more businesses open on this one holiday in my opinion doesn't improve overall quality of life. I'm sorry of you are someone who doesn't have the desire or the ability to celebrate Thanksgiving. But there are other things that can be done that day that doesn't involve shopping.



I view Thanksgiving as nationally and culturally equivalent to Chinese New Year.   Everyone travels home to be with family and eat holiday specific foods.   Thanksgiving is not racially, ethnically, religiously exclusive.   All people can gather and thank the deity of their choice for the blessings of life.   And even atheists benefit by expressing thankfulness to others.   Having a day, nationally, where we all choose to gather with family or friends, to share in a common meal, to reflect on the past year, and to express gratitude I see as a positive thing for the soul of the country.

It would be awesome if your view was the experience for all.  I know you've said you don't post often here because the effect it has on the thread but if you read many of them this time of year you'll see we don't all get to experience of your view.  Working these holidays was sometimes the best part for me.  I do agree shops should be staffed with volunteers and flexibility allowed on shifts if others are needed but a negative for some is not a negative for all.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: perpetua on November 26, 2013, 05:46:32 PM


But I just don't think it's necessary to have retail stores open on Thanksgiving Day. It used to be the one National Holiday that most people in non-critical or hospitality industry had off. A good time for family and friends to plan to get together. Expanding to having more businesses open on this one holiday in my opinion doesn't improve overall quality of life. I'm sorry of you are someone who doesn't have the desire or the ability to celebrate Thanksgiving. But there are other things that can be done that day that doesn't involve shopping.



I view Thanksgiving as nationally and culturally equivalent to Chinese New Year.   Everyone travels home to be with family and eat holiday specific foods.   Thanksgiving is not racially, ethnically, religiously exclusive.   All people can gather and thank the deity of their choice for the blessings of life.   And even atheists benefit by expressing thankfulness to others.   Having a day, nationally, where we all choose to gather with family or friends, to share in a common meal, to reflect on the past year, and to express gratitude I see as a positive thing for the soul of the country.

It would be awesome if your view was the experience for all.  I know you've said you don't post often here because the effect it has on the thread but if you read many of them this time of year you'll see we don't all get to experience of your view.  Working these holidays was sometimes the best part for me.  I do agree shops should be staffed with volunteers and flexibility allowed on shifts if others are needed but a negative for some is not a negative for all.

I tend to agree with you. That sounds like a lovely picture postcard and it would be very nice if everyone had that experience, but it's a very romanticised and rather narrow view of how other people may be spending the holiday. There must be literally millions of people in a country the size of the US who don't *have* family or friends to travel back home to see or enough money to share that meal - probably those who need the extra shifts just to keep their head above water.

That of course doesn't mean that those who do should be deprived of a day off under threat of being fired just to give other people something to do, but thinking that everyone spends - or *should* spend - the holidays the way you do is naive. Life is different for everyone.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: GlitterIsMyDrug on November 26, 2013, 05:55:09 PM
So here's my thought about the "work or get fired" threat. In general, if you are scheduled for a shift and refuse to show up (and you aren't sick, there are no emergencies, you simply want that day off) well, then you risk being fired. You supposed to show up to work when you are scheduled to work. That's part of work. If we all just came in when we wanted to a lot of stuff would never get done.

However, if you request a day off, your employer should give it to you so long as you give advanced notice and there is adequate coverage on that day. I can't imagine they need every person on staff working on one day. No matter the day. In fact in recent years when I've gone to Target on Black Friday, there have been way too many staff workers for the amount of people. We got "late" as in at 3 or 4 because we don't care about electronics or toys.

On the other hand, my friend who works in retail has worked places open on Thanksgiving (he isn't this year) and says that it's much nicer to have people who volunteer to work over people forced to work. As they tend to work harder and be in better spirits. Which makes sense to me.

So yes, ideally, they'll take volunteers first for the holiday. But if they can't get enough people to volunteer, and you don't request the day off, well you might have to work on a day you don't want to work. That's part of working.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Piratelvr1121 on November 26, 2013, 06:14:32 PM
Well in all honesty, I could see  the point of restaurants being open because there may be some families out there that either don't like to/can't cook or simply don't have the means to cook a full holiday meal.  And then there's always the chance the turkey would turn out Griswold style. :P  Some don't have families to be with and again, can't cook or don't have the means or desire to cook a huge meal for just themselves.

But theaters? Not really necessary.  I've never been to a movie on either Thanksgiving or Christmas.  The day after, sure, but never the day of.

I think the main reason behind the objection to stores opening is that it's fairly well known that retail workers already have to deal with a lot on Black Friday in addition to the rest of the year.  My bff who works in retail posted on fbook the other day saying something to the effect of "If you are going to shop on Thanksgiving and Black Friday, please at least be courteous to the employees in the stores and remember there's not much they can do if they're out of something you wanted."
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Jelaza on November 26, 2013, 06:30:31 PM
I honestly cannot make the distinction in my head as to why it's so horrendous for WalMart or Target or Macys to be open but the Applebees and the Olive Garden and Cineplex Theatre are good to go. It does not make sense to me why someone who would be outraged on behalf of the poor Target cashier isn't giving a second thought to the theatre usher and waiter.

I'm not really thrilled with that either.

Convenience stores are fine to be open, that's really what they were intended for, to be open when other stores aren't (hence "convenience").  If you need emergency eggs or bread or cinnamon, you can get it there.  If you need lunch or dinner because you can't cook or dropped the turkey on the floor, lots of them carry premade sandwiches and salads which are fairly tasty, and some even have premade hot entrees.  Yes, you have to pay more than at a normal retailer, but you are paying for the "convenience" part of it.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: MissRose on November 26, 2013, 08:43:50 PM
I work for an internet provider on a help line.  We do have reduced staff for customer calls but most of the time its pretty quiet on holidays.  We get paid extra, and people can volunteer for a certain shift.  I work some holidays, others I take off.

I refuse to go shopping from the day before Thanksgiving until the weekend of Black Friday is completed.  The traffic is too bad, parking is bad, lines are line, many people in the stores can be rude to the staff and/or fellow shoppers to name a few things.  Good thing for online shopping done in the comfort of home wearing my pajamas and my hair tied back in a pony tail!
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: perpetua on November 27, 2013, 01:25:36 AM
Are places open for Thanksgiving Dinner? Has anyone ever thought 'Let's book at (wherever) for dinner this year instead of cooking' ?

In the UK we have lots of carvery type places and many of those are open for Christmas day (you have to book in advance and it's a great deal more expensive than usual). The marketing schtick is 'have your family's big Xmas dinner without the stress of all the cooking and washing up'. Meanwhile, waiters/waitresses/kitchen staff/bar staff are slaving away on the one big holiday of the year so that people who don't want the stress of making Xmas dinner can have a nice day.

I'm not sure I'm seeing the difference between something like that and the shops being open so if you'd do one and not the other, I'd be interested to know why.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Piratelvr1121 on November 27, 2013, 06:54:18 AM
Are places open for Thanksgiving Dinner? Has anyone ever thought 'Let's book at (wherever) for dinner this year instead of cooking' ?

In the UK we have lots of carvery type places and many of those are open for Christmas day (you have to book in advance and it's a great deal more expensive than usual). The marketing schtick is 'have your family's big Xmas dinner without the stress of all the cooking and washing up'. Meanwhile, waiters/waitresses/kitchen staff/bar staff are slaving away on the one big holiday of the year so that people who don't want the stress of making Xmas dinner can have a nice day.

I'm not sure I'm seeing the difference between something like that and the shops being open so if you'd do one and not the other, I'd be interested to know why.

I remember, as a kid, my mom would visit a place called "Heavenly Ham" to order ham for Christmas dinner, but she'd always have it ordered and would pick it up a day in advance so the people weren't cooking on Christmas. In fact I think the place was closed on Christmas so if you didn't pick up your order before close of business Christmas Eve, you were SOL.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Ehelldame on November 27, 2013, 12:08:15 PM


But I just don't think it's necessary to have retail stores open on Thanksgiving Day. It used to be the one National Holiday that most people in non-critical or hospitality industry had off. A good time for family and friends to plan to get together. Expanding to having more businesses open on this one holiday in my opinion doesn't improve overall quality of life. I'm sorry of you are someone who doesn't have the desire or the ability to celebrate Thanksgiving. But there are other things that can be done that day that doesn't involve shopping.



I view Thanksgiving as nationally and culturally equivalent to Chinese New Year.   Everyone travels home to be with family and eat holiday specific foods.   Thanksgiving is not racially, ethnically, religiously exclusive.   All people can gather and thank the deity of their choice for the blessings of life.   And even atheists benefit by expressing thankfulness to others.   Having a day, nationally, where we all choose to gather with family or friends, to share in a common meal, to reflect on the past year, and to express gratitude I see as a positive thing for the soul of the country.

It would be awesome if your view was the experience for all.  I know you've said you don't post often here because the effect it has on the thread but if you read many of them this time of year you'll see we don't all get to experience of your view.  Working these holidays was sometimes the best part for me.  I do agree shops should be staffed with volunteers and flexibility allowed on shifts if others are needed but a negative for some is not a negative for all.

I tend to agree with you. That sounds like a lovely picture postcard and it would be very nice if everyone had that experience, but it's a very romanticised and rather narrow view of how other people may be spending the holiday. There must be literally millions of people in a country the size of the US who don't *have* family or friends to travel back home to see or enough money to share that meal - probably those who need the extra shifts just to keep their head above water.

That of course doesn't mean that those who do should be deprived of a day off under threat of being fired just to give other people something to do, but thinking that everyone spends - or *should* spend - the holidays the way you do is naive. Life is different for everyone.

To quote Puddleglum....

ďOne word, Ma'am," he said, coming back from the fire; limping, because of the pain. "One word. All you've been saying is quite right, I shouldn't wonder. I'm a chap who always liked to know the worst and then put the best face I can on it. So I won't deny any of what you said. But there's one more thing to be said, even so. Suppose we have only dreamed, or made up, all those things-trees and grass and sun and moon and stars and Aslan himself. Suppose we have. Then all I can say is that, in that case, the made-up things seem a good deal more important than the real ones. Suppose this black pit of a kingdom of yours is the only world. Well, it strikes me as a pretty poor one. And that's a funny thing, when you come to think of it. We're just babies making up a game, if you're right. But four babies playing a game can make a play-world which licks your real world hollow. That's why I'm going to stand by the play world. I'm on Aslan's side even if there isn't any Aslan to lead it. I'm going to live as like a Narnian as I can even if there isn't any Narnia. So, thanking you kindly for our supper, if these two gentlemen and the young lady are ready, we're leaving your court at once and setting out in the dark to spend our lives looking for Overland. Not that our lives will be very long, I should think; but that's a small loss if the world's as dull a place as you say.Ē
― C.S. Lewis, The Silver Chair

My parents spent many years prepping and serving Thanksgiving dinner to the homeless in the Seattle area.   As for us, I have lost count of the many Thanksgivings spent with lonely college students, single adults and other families with no family nearby.   One year the DH even brought home a total stranger from the airport who had missed his flight and was stuck in the terminal for hours.   So, I will continue to live like a Narnian even if there is no Narnia.  And I'll do it regardless of how "naive" and "narrow" you believe me to be.   
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: TheaterDiva1 on November 27, 2013, 12:30:09 PM
I saw this article and thought of this thread:

http://www.allproudamericans.com/I-Was-Fired-For-Defending-Thanksgiving.html

Basically, a Pizza Hut manager was fired because he refused to open his store on Thanksgiving day.

Thoughts/comments???
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: siamesecat2965 on November 27, 2013, 12:34:43 PM
Are places open for Thanksgiving Dinner? Has anyone ever thought 'Let's book at (wherever) for dinner this year instead of cooking' ?

In the UK we have lots of carvery type places and many of those are open for Christmas day (you have to book in advance and it's a great deal more expensive than usual). 
I'm not sure I'm seeing the difference between something like that and the shops being open so if you'd do one and not the other, I'd be interested to know why.

Yes, and my mom and I have gone out on Thanksgiving. When it was just going to be the two of us, and neither one a. is really into the whole traditional turkey day dinner, and b. wasn't in the mood to cook, clean up etc. for just us two.

I think for me, the difference is restuarnts have always been open on Thanksgiving, not all, but many, and as they are in the "service" industry, its kind of expected that many are, and many folks go out rather than cooking. You could even say its tradition to go out for certain holidays; Thanksgiving, Easter etc.

As far as retail stores being open, that's only been in the last 5-10(?) or however many years, as retailers realize they can capitalize on people who want to come and shop ON Thanksgiving, rather than waiting until the "traditional" black friday shopping day. I know growing up, stores were never ever open on holidays, maybe the grocery store, but only for a few hours, and then that was it. You never had them open on Thanksgiving, Easter etc.  Those were times to be spent with family....but now they aren't, for many who have to work on these days.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: perpetua on November 27, 2013, 12:43:30 PM


But I just don't think it's necessary to have retail stores open on Thanksgiving Day. It used to be the one National Holiday that most people in non-critical or hospitality industry had off. A good time for family and friends to plan to get together. Expanding to having more businesses open on this one holiday in my opinion doesn't improve overall quality of life. I'm sorry of you are someone who doesn't have the desire or the ability to celebrate Thanksgiving. But there are other things that can be done that day that doesn't involve shopping.



I view Thanksgiving as nationally and culturally equivalent to Chinese New Year.   Everyone travels home to be with family and eat holiday specific foods.   Thanksgiving is not racially, ethnically, religiously exclusive.   All people can gather and thank the deity of their choice for the blessings of life.   And even atheists benefit by expressing thankfulness to others.   Having a day, nationally, where we all choose to gather with family or friends, to share in a common meal, to reflect on the past year, and to express gratitude I see as a positive thing for the soul of the country.

It would be awesome if your view was the experience for all.  I know you've said you don't post often here because the effect it has on the thread but if you read many of them this time of year you'll see we don't all get to experience of your view.  Working these holidays was sometimes the best part for me.  I do agree shops should be staffed with volunteers and flexibility allowed on shifts if others are needed but a negative for some is not a negative for all.

I tend to agree with you. That sounds like a lovely picture postcard and it would be very nice if everyone had that experience, but it's a very romanticised and rather narrow view of how other people may be spending the holiday. There must be literally millions of people in a country the size of the US who don't *have* family or friends to travel back home to see or enough money to share that meal - probably those who need the extra shifts just to keep their head above water.

That of course doesn't mean that those who do should be deprived of a day off under threat of being fired just to give other people something to do, but thinking that everyone spends - or *should* spend - the holidays the way you do is naive. Life is different for everyone.

To quote Puddleglum....

ďOne word, Ma'am," he said, coming back from the fire; limping, because of the pain. "One word. All you've been saying is quite right, I shouldn't wonder. I'm a chap who always liked to know the worst and then put the best face I can on it. So I won't deny any of what you said. But there's one more thing to be said, even so. Suppose we have only dreamed, or made up, all those things-trees and grass and sun and moon and stars and Aslan himself. Suppose we have. Then all I can say is that, in that case, the made-up things seem a good deal more important than the real ones. Suppose this black pit of a kingdom of yours is the only world. Well, it strikes me as a pretty poor one. And that's a funny thing, when you come to think of it. We're just babies making up a game, if you're right. But four babies playing a game can make a play-world which licks your real world hollow. That's why I'm going to stand by the play world. I'm on Aslan's side even if there isn't any Aslan to lead it. I'm going to live as like a Narnian as I can even if there isn't any Narnia. So, thanking you kindly for our supper, if these two gentlemen and the young lady are ready, we're leaving your court at once and setting out in the dark to spend our lives looking for Overland. Not that our lives will be very long, I should think; but that's a small loss if the world's as dull a place as you say.Ē
― C.S. Lewis, The Silver Chair

My parents spent many years prepping and serving Thanksgiving dinner to the homeless in the Seattle area.   As for us, I have lost count of the many Thanksgivings spent with lonely college students, single adults and other families with no family nearby.   One year the DH even brought home a total stranger from the airport who had missed his flight and was stuck in the terminal for hours.   So, I will continue to live like a Narnian even if there is no Narnia.  And I'll do it regardless of how "naive" and "narrow" you believe me to be.

I think we're misunderstanding each other, because that isn't what I said at all and I certainly didn't say or think that you personally were narrow or naive. What I actually said was that expecting that everyone should celebrate the holiday as you do (you general, not you specifically), in specific reference the previous statement that stores etc *shouldn't* be open, etc,  is a somewhat narrow viewpoint of how others may be spending (or may wish to spend) that particular day.

FWIW, I think the kind of Thanksgiving that you describe, with everyone choosing to come together with friends and family, sounds great, and I wish we had something like that here - I've always thought that it sounds like a rather lovely holiday. We have an American gent in our circle of friends who's been quite ill recently and is unable to travel home to the States for Thanksgiving this year as a result, so we're having a Thanksgiving celebration here for him instead. Although I have no idea what it entails, he's guiding us all and I'm really looking forward to it.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: GlitterIsMyDrug on November 27, 2013, 12:51:32 PM
FWIW, I think the kind of Thanksgiving that you describe, with everyone choosing to come together with friends and family, sounds great, and I wish we had something like that here - I've always thought that it sounds like a rather lovely holiday. We have an American gent in our circle of friends who's been quite ill recently and is unable to travel home to the States for Thanksgiving this year as a result, so we're having a Thanksgiving celebration here for him instead. Although I have no idea what it entails, he's guiding us all and I'm really looking forward to it.

It entails food. So very much food. And for some reason we eat dinner at 3pm on Thanksgiving. No one seems to know why (I say this knowing someone here knows why and will tell us) but we do.

One of my English friends often partakes in Thanksgiving with us, she's lived in the states for four years, has had 3 Thanksgivings and still every year is amazed at how much food there always is. She loves it, but this year will be working (at an art gallery, she volunteered and is excited), so might pop over later for some dessert but won't be here for the actual meal. Though in general she's always amazed at the sheer amount of food my family always seems to have. We're pretty sure everyone around us is starving to death. And we will eradicate it ourselves come hell or high water.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: perpetua on November 27, 2013, 12:55:49 PM
FWIW, I think the kind of Thanksgiving that you describe, with everyone choosing to come together with friends and family, sounds great, and I wish we had something like that here - I've always thought that it sounds like a rather lovely holiday. We have an American gent in our circle of friends who's been quite ill recently and is unable to travel home to the States for Thanksgiving this year as a result, so we're having a Thanksgiving celebration here for him instead. Although I have no idea what it entails, he's guiding us all and I'm really looking forward to it.

It entails food. So very much food. And for some reason we eat dinner at 3pm on Thanksgiving. No one seems to know why (I say this knowing someone here knows why and will tell us) but we do.

Oh yes, this much I've figured out. The organiser has a spreadsheet of who's bringing what. It's being run like a military operation. And there are 23 of us. It'll be enough food to feed a small town, I think.

For some reason 3pm seems to be the standard time for Xmas dinner here, too. I always figured it was so people could listen to Her Maj while tucking in - she's on at 3 every year, gawd bless 'er.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: kherbert05 on November 27, 2013, 01:11:51 PM
I saw this article and thought of this thread:

http://www.allproudamericans.com/I-Was-Fired-For-Defending-Thanksgiving.html (http://www.allproudamericans.com/I-Was-Fired-For-Defending-Thanksgiving.html)

Basically, a Pizza Hut manager was fired because he refused to open his store on Thanksgiving day.

Thoughts/comments???
Another good reason to boycott Pizza Hut. Not that I needed one more I have plenty. I go to local place -  Fuzzy's (I know bad name for a restaurant but great food) if I want pizza.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Betelnut on November 27, 2013, 01:13:44 PM
Let's not get Thanksgiving openings confused with Black Friday.  Black Friday is a "normal" business day--lots, if not all, businesses are open regular hours.  (I realize that Black Friday hours can be outrageously lengthened but some people are expressing outrage at the notion of Black Friday itself.)

As for myself, I can understand why restaurants/gas stations/hotels are open--Thanksgiving is a huge travel holiday. 

That said, I agree--there is no reason Target, Walmart, etc. "need" to be open on Thanksgiving Day.  Is it possible that Walmart is the only grocery store in the area for some places?

Oh!  EHelldame--your posts are the reason we need karma on this site!  +1
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Possum on November 27, 2013, 04:40:38 PM
I can't say I'm outraged, nor am I sure which meaning of "sacred" is being used, but I do think it's silly to open stores on Thanksgiving.  I know how incredibly important this sales burst is to retailers, and how competitive it is, but we need to draw some lines.  Employees deserve to be with their families if they wish on their most important holidays.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Betelnut on November 27, 2013, 06:02:04 PM
Just got back from eating at Taco Bell.  The sign on the door said they would be closed on Thanksgiving and Christmas Day!  I told the manager that I appreciated them closing on those days for their employees.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: kherbert05 on November 27, 2013, 07:06:00 PM
Just got back from eating at Taco Bell.  The sign on the door said they would be closed on Thanksgiving and Christmas Day!  I told the manager that I appreciated them closing on those days for their employees.
I did that a couple of places today. I will be writing their corporate an e-mail saying one reason they have my business is that they allow their employees to have time with their families. 
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Outdoor Girl on November 27, 2013, 08:30:43 PM
My nephews work at MacDonald's.  The only day of the year they are closed is Christmas Day.  They close a little early on Christmas Eve - 8:00 pm, I think.  And they still have people coming through the drive thru, trying to order food.  They are amazed at how addicted some people are to MacDonald's.

(We're in Canada so Thanksgiving is a little different.  They don't close for Thanksgiving Day, here.)
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: katycoo on November 27, 2013, 08:47:24 PM
My nephews work at MacDonald's.  The only day of the year they are closed is Christmas Day.  They close a little early on Christmas Eve - 8:00 pm, I think.  And they still have people coming through the drive thru, trying to order food.  They are amazed at how addicted some people are to MacDonald's.

(We're in Canada so Thanksgiving is a little different.  They don't close for Thanksgiving Day, here.)

Not having other plans for a meal on Christmas doesn't make people addicted to McDonalds.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Yvaine on November 27, 2013, 09:05:51 PM
My nephews work at MacDonald's.  The only day of the year they are closed is Christmas Day.  They close a little early on Christmas Eve - 8:00 pm, I think.  And they still have people coming through the drive thru, trying to order food.  They are amazed at how addicted some people are to MacDonald's.

(We're in Canada so Thanksgiving is a little different.  They don't close for Thanksgiving Day, here.)

Not having other plans for a meal on Christmas doesn't make people addicted to McDonalds.

This. I remember once going to a Jack in the Box on Christmas because something had gone wrong with the family meal (can't remember what). It wasn't a craving for JitB in particular, just they were the only place in town that was open.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Outdoor Girl on November 27, 2013, 09:08:32 PM
My nephews work at MacDonald's.  The only day of the year they are closed is Christmas Day.  They close a little early on Christmas Eve - 8:00 pm, I think.  And they still have people coming through the drive thru, trying to order food.  They are amazed at how addicted some people are to MacDonald's.

(We're in Canada so Thanksgiving is a little different.  They don't close for Thanksgiving Day, here.)

Not having other plans for a meal on Christmas doesn't make people addicted to McDonalds.

These were regular customers that they see at least weekly, if not daily, who were getting irate that they had the nerve to close for one day.  It wasn't a case of not having a Christmas meal.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: katycoo on November 27, 2013, 09:49:58 PM
My nephews work at MacDonald's.  The only day of the year they are closed is Christmas Day.  They close a little early on Christmas Eve - 8:00 pm, I think.  And they still have people coming through the drive thru, trying to order food.  They are amazed at how addicted some people are to MacDonald's.

(We're in Canada so Thanksgiving is a little different.  They don't close for Thanksgiving Day, here.)

Not having other plans for a meal on Christmas doesn't make people addicted to McDonalds.

These were regular customers that they see at least weekly, if not daily, who were getting irate that they had the nerve to close for one day.  It wasn't a case of not having a Christmas meal.

Nevertheless, it remains an assumption.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Sharnita on November 27, 2013, 11:04:03 PM
The pizza thing strikes home. When I was a teen  an elderly relative who lived about 5 hours away died. Because of the timing her family decided to have the funeral on Thanksgiving. Her immediate family had already arranged to travel home for the holiday,  they already had the time off...

My parents decided to go but thought the trip there, funeral and trip home would be too much for us - especially the younger siblings.  They had us stay home, the older kids babysitting the younger two. We watched movies on the vcr and got a pizza. Considering the fact that it involved a death and not being all together it was probably one of the bestThanksgivings you could expect.

People might be away from home and in need of some sort of purchased meal because of illness or death.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Sneezy on November 27, 2013, 11:07:34 PM
When I worked in the service industry, retail service workers sort of had a choice when it came to working those days. If you worked at Denny's, the movie theater, the truck stop, or the gas station, you worked Thanksgiving and Christmas. If you applied to work anywhere else in town,  like the mall or the local pasta restaurant, you didn't work those days. Even, you chose to apply at a place that was open those days, they usually would take volunteers to work the holiday first. Now, any job that involves the general public comes with a near certainty that you'll work on those days and no additional compensation so you can't really choose to take a job where you don't work those days if you work in those industries. Even with the limitations before, there was at least one place open where one could do most of what someone would need, just on a far more limited basis.  Now, it's expected to be business as usual everywhere. I don't know how necessary that really is.

The times I had to work on those days, the vast majority of customers were very nice and happy that someone was working there. Now, it's an expectation and the workers are seen as entitled to want that time off. There was the occasional person who had the attitude of "Well, I always worked these days so I don't see what the big deal is working today" but it wasn't as common. I remember on customer who would preemptively say that when seated when I was a waitress every single holiday in response to "Welcome to ____, what can I get you to drink?" It puzzled me, since it's not like I said, "Welcome to ____, where I have to work the holiday!" Just because I had to work the holiday didn't mean I wanted everyone else doing so.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: zyrs on November 28, 2013, 01:15:57 AM

2. because the workers who are running these stores are being treated poorly.


I don't shop Thanksgiving evening or on Black Friday because of this.

I do, however frequent a local grocery that is open Thanksgiving and Christmas mornings as a service to the neighborhood.  The owner and his family open the store in the morning - all employees are given those days off with pay.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: shhh its me on November 28, 2013, 07:41:32 AM
Are places open for Thanksgiving Dinner? Has anyone ever thought 'Let's book at (wherever) for dinner this year instead of cooking' ?

In the UK we have lots of carvery type places and many of those are open for Christmas day (you have to book in advance and it's a great deal more expensive than usual). 
I'm not sure I'm seeing the difference between something like that and the shops being open so if you'd do one and not the other, I'd be interested to know why.

Yes, and my mom and I have gone out on Thanksgiving. When it was just going to be the two of us, and neither one a. is really into the whole traditional turkey day dinner, and b. wasn't in the mood to cook, clean up etc. for just us two.

I think for me, the difference is restuarnts have always been open on Thanksgiving, not all, but many, and as they are in the "service" industry, its kind of expected that many are, and many folks go out rather than cooking. You could even say its tradition to go out for certain holidays; Thanksgiving, Easter etc.

As far as retail stores being open, that's only been in the last 5-10(?) or however many years, as retailers realize they can capitalize on people who want to come and shop ON Thanksgiving, rather than waiting until the "traditional" black Friday shopping day. I know growing up, stores were never ever open on holidays, maybe the grocery store, but only for a few hours, and then that was it. You never had them open on Thanksgiving, Easter etc.  Those were times to be spent with family....but now they aren't, for many who have to work on these days.

Also for restaurant workers I presume they make considerable more money on Thanksgiving. I've been out to eat on Thanksgiving the restaurants close early and there is a 18% automatic tip (at least at the places I've been)since it was a holiday I always tipped  another $20 on top of that I can't believe I was the only one.  It's also mostly the  middle high -higher end restaurants that are open , So they are staffed more by true  career restaurant workers.

 To my knowledge .... restaurant workers wont be asked to be there at 4 am Friday or to work the next 30 days without a day off or be sent home without pay(the full 8 hours pay) after working 2-4 hours of a 8 hour shift. They'll (sent home worker) probable still have to pay their babysitter if they have one and its too late then to invite people over maybe someone will let them come last minute. Speaking of last minute 1-3 weeks notice isn't really sufficient that a Holiday is a mandatory work day.  So while Friday is a  normal businesses days the extreme extend hours that retail is subjected to does effect my opinion.

Without getting into the politics of minimum wage I think we can all agree no one can live independently on minimum wage ,most of the calculation I've seen put the minimum to live on wage at a little more then double or 86 hours a week. The average wage for retail sales people is $10.50 (not including car sales people, insurance and a few other classes that make considerably more) cashiers is $9.75 ish that's includes the high end stores like Cartier and grocery cashiers who've been there for 30 years. 

Doctors , police , tax accounts even high end retail workers are choosing their careers with the knowledge they will work either many holidays or many consecutive days with long hours or both. To my knowledge none of those careers must work 5 of the 6 major US holidays and none do it for$7.65 -$10 a hour. 

For me it comes down to........"How we treat the least of us." 

I don't have enough knowledge of movie workers to have an opinion about them.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Outdoor Girl on November 28, 2013, 07:51:28 AM
To my knowledge .... restaurant workers wont be asked to be there at 4 am Friday or to work the next 30 days without a day off or be sent home without pay(the full 8 hours pay) after working 2-4 hours of a 8 hour shift. They'll probable still have to pay their babysitter if they have one and its too late then to invite people over maybe someone will let them come last minute. Speaking of last minute 1-3 weeks notice int really sufficient that a Holiday is a mandatory work day.  So while Friday is a  normal businesses days the extreme extend hours that retail is subjected to does effect my opinion.

This is a good point.  I think I would be less bothered by a retail store that was open its regular hours on a holiday than ones that have these crazy extended hours that result in the crazy line-ups and in some cases, even crazier customers.  Restaurants and movie theatres would be open more like their regular hours, unless there was also a midnight premiere on at a movie theatre.  So while those employees are expected to work, they aren't having to work above and beyond their normal hours.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: shhh its me on November 28, 2013, 08:16:09 AM
One of the things about the crazy hours - many of these indoor and outlet stores have leases that stipulate a store must open during mall hours or pay a fine. So if the mall opens at 10pm and stays open all night,   Carter's can either open too, and make money or they can stay closed and in many cases pay a hefty fine.

That wouldn't be a factor in the decision making for Wal-Mart but for a lot of clothing stores and the like it probably plays a role.

So far I think there is only one mall open on Thanksgiving in my area.  It's true that all the stores must be open the hours the malls dictate or pay a fine.  The malls often release those hours with a month or less notice and generally it seems to match when a set % of the malls anchor stores are open.  The anchor stores are the large department stores in many malls so the JC Penny's, Sears , Macy's,  Nordstroms.  Walmart's , Khol's and Best buy don't seem to effect the hours of the other stores in their shared plazas , that I can tell. 
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Sharnita on November 28, 2013, 08:20:19 AM
Somehow removed my own comment. Many of the stores in malls have leases stipulating they must pay a fine if they choose to stay closed during mall hours.  So if the mall opens at midnight and stays open,  a store might be given the choice of opening too  (and making money) or staying closed and paying a significant fine.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: LeveeWoman on November 28, 2013, 01:47:57 PM
I saw this article and thought of this thread:

http://www.allproudamericans.com/I-Was-Fired-For-Defending-Thanksgiving.html

Basically, a Pizza Hut manager was fired because he refused to open his store on Thanksgiving day.

Thoughts/comments???

The owner got his butt kicked by the public, and has rehired the manager.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Piratelvr1121 on November 28, 2013, 07:50:54 PM
Saw one person on fbook who works at Target and she's actually excited about working tonight and says she's really never experienced any unpleasantness at her store at least for Black Friday and didn't mind coming in tonight at 8.

My main reason for not wanting to shop today though is I just wouldn't want to get out of my pj's and get dressed after eating like I do on Tgiving, but to each their own!
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: MissRose on November 29, 2013, 10:03:05 AM
I have worked in technical support in some way for 10 years+ for an internet provider.  Even on holidays, we have some staff on each shift even if there are not as many people there compared to a normal work day.   Most holiday days are decently quiet, we get paid extra, and certain holidays we may even have potlucks or someone may barbecue meat etc.

For a while, my mother pushed me to work EVERY holiday so that those with kids could have the day off.  I grew a spine, and do not work EVERY holiday but work some, and she does not need to know.  I  do have a family even if I do not have a spouse and/or kids!
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: White Lotus on November 29, 2013, 12:53:25 PM
I don't like the Commercial Christmas Greed-fest that retailers are trying to extend to Hanukkah, and will probably eventually try to extend to our holiday, New Year's.  We do not participate because, as Buddhists, we think it disrespectful to celebrate some watered-down secular version of someone else's religious holiday.  We love our holidays, and particularly like TG because of the fun four day weekend.  For us, that does not and never would include shopping.  I am very opposed to making people who do not have to work do so.  We have relatives in truly essential jobs who volunteer (as do many Jews) to work Christmas Eve and Day so those who celebrate those holidays can do so.  If they work TG, we work around their schedules.  But, please, no more greed, and no more shopping.  If we forget something in the culinary line, we figure it out. But we don't shop.  Let my people go....HOME!
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Venus193 on November 29, 2013, 05:24:30 PM
Sadly, according to some news reports I heard this morning sales revenues for Thanksgiving Day are up 40% over last year, so this is not likely to go away.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Amara on November 29, 2013, 06:04:47 PM
I was out by and so stopped in Bed, Bath & Beyond. Until noon they were handing out their 20 percent off coupon for your entire order. I didn't really want anything but casually looked around (and did end up with a much-need bath rug for the guest bathroom). But I had an opportunity to chat for about five minutes with a manager who told me they had worked until 1:00 am Thursday getting ready for Friday, then had to open at 6:00 am today. I asked him if they were crowded at 6:00. Nope, in fact it was quite dead though by the time I got there, around 11:45, it was lively though the lines at the register were quite short. Michael's on the other hand made me turn and walk out.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: TeamBhakta on November 29, 2013, 09:46:39 PM
After leaving Thanksgiving dinner around 3 PM, I had seen a huge line in the Best Buy parking lot. No thank you. 
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Clockwork Banana on November 29, 2013, 10:58:29 PM
Another Canadian perspective here.

My preference would be for retail outlets not to be open on statutory holidays such as Thanksgiving.  Mainly because it seems to add to the 'specialness' of the day when the immediate world shuts down and one has the opportunity to close in upon oneself and re-group, either with or without family.

However, what came first?  The chicken or the egg?  Are the stores opening to create consumer demand, or did consumer demand cause the stores to open?

I remember when Sunday shopping was becoming an issue.  Limited opening was starting to be permitted, but only in designated tourist areas.  But even before that, retailers. both large and small, were beginning to flout the law and open their doors.  They would then be fined sometimes thousands of dollars, which they would pay and then open right up the following Sunday.  The profits they were making well exceeded the fines, and it almost became just another cost of doing business.  This still happens on stat holidays, where if you are not in a designated area, you cannot legally open.  Some retailers still do, and still incur the fines.

If I remember correctly, somebody upthread put forth the thought that if July 4th (your Independence Day) was in a different season, then lifeguards would not be considered essential workers and could have the day off.  But if July 4th was actually February 4th, then would that not make ski-lift operators, or more accurately rescue teams, become the essential staff?

I do agree completely that the exploitation of part-time workers forced to work without additional compensation is morally and should be legally unsupportable.  Here, the laws vary province to province, but on the whole they are pretty stringent on making sure that workers get premium pay or time in lieu for working on a Stat. 
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Betelnut on November 30, 2013, 11:41:45 AM
After leaving Thanksgiving dinner around 3 PM, I had seen a huge line in the Best Buy parking lot. No thank you.

Me too.  But I did see a lot of empty parking lots too so that's good.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Venus193 on November 30, 2013, 02:02:27 PM
I saw very few people with shopping bags on the street or in the subway.  A few people with groceries, but that was it.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Sharnita on November 30, 2013, 02:51:19 PM
The local outlet mall was bust from Thursday night until they closed Friday night.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Maxiestar on November 30, 2013, 07:40:26 PM
I went to a popular shopping mall at the north part of town yesterday. It was quite busy, but crowds varied from store to store. At Michael's, it was packed, and the line was long, but it looked like they kept it moving fast. At Old Navy, there was a small line of people outside waiting to get in. Target was crazy packed in the electronics department.

I went to another mall today, crowds weren't too bad. Black Friday was much quieter here compared to others I heard on the news. I am curious as to how this shopping strategy goes. Especially in years when the gap between the holidays is longer.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Amara on November 30, 2013, 08:36:54 PM
I am currently over at the CustomersSuck forum reading a couple of threads about Thanksgiving and Black Friday sales. There is, not surprisingly, a fair amount of *language*. But my jaw dropped open at this post, which except for one word I changed is as written:

Quote
I really hate my job at the Mart of Wal at the best of times....last night wasn't the best of times. Our Brown Thursday sales started with a bang. HUGE crowds, items running out of stock long before the one hour guarantee was anywhere close to over. We had a man pull a gun on an associate for an IPAD, two women were buying the lovely cheap a** towels and there was one set left that they both wanted, the one lady threw bleach in the others face for it! We had a small fire and a fight broke out over a guys dollar bill that fell to the floor, was picked up and pocketed by another guy and when the first man wanted it back a fist fight broke out over it!

And, that, fellow eHellions, is what all the hype can produce. Sickening.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Sharnita on November 30, 2013, 08:49:51 PM
I would guess that has a lot to do with where the Wal-Mart is located.  Quite frankly,  there are some communities where that kind of activity is more common even on a normal day. The two Chuck E. Cheese locations nearest me have a reputation for violence - people getting injured and arrested pretty regularly.  If that is how people behave at a kid-centric pizza place,  you can just imagine what happens at Wal-Mart. Of course, any time you have increased number of people there is also increased potential for strife but that would happen no matter what day you had a big sale.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: FauxFoodist on November 30, 2013, 09:20:07 PM
I would guess that has a lot to do with where the Wal-Mart is located.

Not necessarily.  I came to that conclusion last year when I heard about the Wal-Mart pepper spray incident last year that was in the area where I grew up.  I thought it was the one in the really bad neighborhood then learned it was actually the one in the land of those with a bit of money (Porter Ranch, the nicest neighborhood in which I've ever lived).  I was really surprised.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: kareng57 on November 30, 2013, 10:37:57 PM
Another Canadian perspective here.

My preference would be for retail outlets not to be open on statutory holidays such as Thanksgiving.  Mainly because it seems to add to the 'specialness' of the day when the immediate world shuts down and one has the opportunity to close in upon oneself and re-group, either with or without family.

However, what came first?  The chicken or the egg?  Are the stores opening to create consumer demand, or did consumer demand cause the stores to open?

I remember when Sunday shopping was becoming an issue.  Limited opening was starting to be permitted, but only in designated tourist areas.  But even before that, retailers. both large and small, were beginning to flout the law and open their doors.  They would then be fined sometimes thousands of dollars, which they would pay and then open right up the following Sunday.  The profits they were making well exceeded the fines, and it almost became just another cost of doing business.  This still happens on stat holidays, where if you are not in a designated area, you cannot legally open.  Some retailers still do, and still incur the fines.

If I remember correctly, somebody upthread put forth the thought that if July 4th (your Independence Day) was in a different season, then lifeguards would not be considered essential workers and could have the day off.  But if July 4th was actually February 4th, then would that not make ski-lift operators, or more accurately rescue teams, become the essential staff?

I do agree completely that the exploitation of part-time workers forced to work without additional compensation is morally and should be legally unsupportable.  Here, the laws vary province to province, but on the whole they are pretty stringent on making sure that workers get premium pay or time in lieu for working on a Stat.


I too am Canadian.  And it's hard to compare Canada with the US Thanksgiving.  Even though our "official" Thanksgiving is on the second Monday in October - IME the majority of families have their dinner on the Sunday.  It's often more convenient, and if most of the celebrants have the Monday off, it makes cleanup a bit easier.  But overall - it just isn't as big a celebration as it is in the US.  For example, you don't generally have people flying in from several hours away to spend Thanksgiving with relatives.  I'm not saying that it never happens, just that it's not routine.

And ever since Sunday shopping became fairly routine in many areas, shopping on statutory holidays has also become routine - Thanksgiving Sunday/Monday are included.  Ironically, Sunday shopping was lawful in the US state closest to me,  many years before it became allowed in my area.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: mmswm on December 01, 2013, 01:03:59 AM
I am currently over at the CustomersSuck forum reading a couple of threads about Thanksgiving and Black Friday sales. There is, not surprisingly, a fair amount of *language*. But my jaw dropped open at this post, which except for one word I changed is as written:

Quote
I really hate my job at the Mart of Wal at the best of times....last night wasn't the best of times. Our Brown Thursday sales started with a bang. HUGE crowds, items running out of stock long before the one hour guarantee was anywhere close to over. We had a man pull a gun on an associate for an IPAD, two women were buying the lovely cheap a** towels and there was one set left that they both wanted, the one lady threw bleach in the others face for it! We had a small fire and a fight broke out over a guys dollar bill that fell to the floor, was picked up and pocketed by another guy and when the first man wanted it back a fist fight broke out over it!

And, that, fellow eHellions, is what all the hype can produce. Sickening.

On the other hand, and from the same thread as the one quoted, there's this:

Quote
I could not have asked for better Thanksgiving and Black Friday shifts!

Thursday started out slow but started to crank big time after a couple hours, and I made stupid money. It died down right about when the second bartender came in. Bonus for me was that, due to weather, they closed the roof deck, and the bartender that was scheduled to work up there was put on the main bar, enabling me to be done by 5:30, several hours earlie than I expected to be done. Which enabled me to watch most of the Raiders-Cowboys game, which was cool. Well, until the Raiders decided once again to not show up for the second half. But at least I got to watch them melt down with a beer in hand, rather than serving it!

Also, the kitchen put out a holiday buffet just for the staff (it was upstairs, which was closed to the public, so no cheapa** poachers!), and it was delicious. I brought in my homemade tropical cranberry sauce, which everyone agreed was better than the stuff the kitchen out out. Not all that tough, since it was canned. 

Also, lots of cool customers who tipped well, unlike Tuesday, so I made good money. Total win.

Friday was much of the same, just cranking it all day, finally finishing up when the third bartender came in at 7. High sales, good tips, great customers, good money. Yay me.

This particular person is somebody I know personally, and he's not blowing smoke.  He really doesn't mind working holidays.  I went searching for something else this same person said on his personal Facebook page, but he posts a LOT and I couldn't find it. The general gist is what others have said about many, many other people working on holidays, and not just the "essential" people one might expect.  One example that comes to mind is truck drivers.  I spent TG evening hanging out on a discussion forum for drivers, raising cain with a bunch of drivers stopped overnight at various truck stops across the country. Some people honestly don't mind, or even enjoy working these shifts and others are upset by it. Given the diversity of this country, I don't think we're ever going to come to a consensus. 




Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: bonyk on December 01, 2013, 06:39:21 AM
I am currently over at the CustomersSuck forum reading a couple of threads about Thanksgiving and Black Friday sales. There is, not surprisingly, a fair amount of *language*. But my jaw dropped open at this post, which except for one word I changed is as written:

Quote
I really hate my job at the Mart of Wal at the best of times....last night wasn't the best of times. Our Brown Thursday sales started with a bang. HUGE crowds, items running out of stock long before the one hour guarantee was anywhere close to over. We had a man pull a gun on an associate for an IPAD, two women were buying the lovely cheap a** towels and there was one set left that they both wanted, the one lady threw bleach in the others face for it! We had a small fire and a fight broke out over a guys dollar bill that fell to the floor, was picked up and pocketed by another guy and when the first man wanted it back a fist fight broke out over it!

And, that, fellow eHellions, is what all the hype can produce. Sickening.

I don't think you can blame their behavior on the hype.  Millions of people were exposed to the same hype and did not draw firearms or splash bleach on anyone.  IMO, people like that are looking for an excuse to exercise their aggression.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Venus193 on December 01, 2013, 07:00:04 AM
True, but I don't recall stuff like this happening ten years ago before these crazy hours and one-hour sales.  Although the Cabbage Patch doll thing from the late 80s with people willing to pay $1500 for the last one available was just as insane.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: MissRose on December 02, 2013, 07:42:30 AM
After leaving Thanksgiving dinner around 3 PM, I had seen a huge line in the Best Buy parking lot. No thank you.

Me too.  But I did see a lot of empty parking lots too so that's good.

I saw a lot of cars in the various stores and mall parking lots on the way to work Friday morning.  At least I do not work retail as I would not be able to handle it this time of year.  I commend those who do and do not lose their cool regarding Snowflake customers.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Niamh84 on December 02, 2013, 07:54:20 AM




We don't have Thanksgiving in Ireland but retailers are under increasing pressure to open throughout Christmas time and I don't agree with it but that's because my dad works in retail and it's hard watching him work himself ragged every day for two months.  It used to be that shops weren't open on a Sunday but they all are now.  They would also be closed on Christmas day and St. Stephen's day but they all open on St. Stephen's Day now so my dad works every single day from 25 November to 24 December inclusive and then 26 December to around late January without a single day off.  I just feel really sorry for him and dread the day that shops start to open on Christmas Day as I have no doubt it'll happen at some stage, here's hoping he's retired by then.

Here our labor laws would prevent you from being rostered that many days in a row without a break.

Sorry I should have been clearer.  My dad is self employed.  His shop's staff would, of course, have their usual days off every week.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Yvaine on December 02, 2013, 09:27:56 AM
I am currently over at the CustomersSuck forum reading a couple of threads about Thanksgiving and Black Friday sales. There is, not surprisingly, a fair amount of *language*. But my jaw dropped open at this post, which except for one word I changed is as written:

Quote
I really hate my job at the Mart of Wal at the best of times....last night wasn't the best of times. Our Brown Thursday sales started with a bang. HUGE crowds, items running out of stock long before the one hour guarantee was anywhere close to over. We had a man pull a gun on an associate for an IPAD, two women were buying the lovely cheap a** towels and there was one set left that they both wanted, the one lady threw bleach in the others face for it! We had a small fire and a fight broke out over a guys dollar bill that fell to the floor, was picked up and pocketed by another guy and when the first man wanted it back a fist fight broke out over it!

And, that, fellow eHellions, is what all the hype can produce. Sickening.

I'm actually surprised, with that much drama, that the incident didn't make any news that I saw. It's possible that it did happen, and I did hear of some different dramatic incidents at various stores, but it's also important to keep in mind that CS, like any forum, does sometimes contain fiction.  ;)
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Betelnut on December 02, 2013, 09:31:44 AM
I think the bleach story would be in the news but it isn't.  It might be fake. 
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Yvaine on December 02, 2013, 09:35:43 AM
I think the bleach story would be in the news but it isn't.  It might be fake.

If the bleach attack and the associate at gunpoint were at the same store, I'd be shocked if it didn't make national news. The Kohl's parking lot altercation (which was a shoplifting incident, not regular shopping) was all over the media.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: GlitterIsMyDrug on December 02, 2013, 10:00:02 AM
I managed to not shop on Thursday, didn't even need to resist temptation. Though I almost sent Partner out because we ran out of coffee creamer, but then BFF had some he was willing to share, so crisis averted (in this house it is a crisis). We watched the parade, ate food, and then went and saw Thor. Which, 1) awesome, and 2) the theater was dead. I figured between Catching Fire and that animated movie...Frost(?), there'd be some crowds with families with little ones at least. But nope, whole place was dead. There were four groups of people in the theater (counting our group), I was really surprised. In the past theaters have been packed on holidays.

Day after I got up at 3:15am, got ready and went out to shop! And it was dead! I mean, dead dead. There were a few things I wanted to get that weren't in stock anymore. Do you know what I did? I said "Oh well, thanks for your help" and moved on with my life. Which is how people should react. It's just stuff. It's not that important. If I really wanted it, I'd drive to one of the other stores and see if they had it.

I will say all the employees were super friendly and helpful. And I was home by noon (would've been sooner but we needed food).
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Peppergirl on December 02, 2013, 05:33:14 PM
I am currently over at the CustomersSuck forum reading a couple of threads about Thanksgiving and Black Friday sales. There is, not surprisingly, a fair amount of *language*. But my jaw dropped open at this post, which except for one word I changed is as written:

Quote
I really hate my job at the Mart of Wal at the best of times....last night wasn't the best of times. Our Brown Thursday sales started with a bang. HUGE crowds, items running out of stock long before the one hour guarantee was anywhere close to over. We had a man pull a gun on an associate for an IPAD, two women were buying the lovely cheap a** towels and there was one set left that they both wanted, the one lady threw bleach in the others face for it! We had a small fire and a fight broke out over a guys dollar bill that fell to the floor, was picked up and pocketed by another guy and when the first man wanted it back a fist fight broke out over it!

And, that, fellow eHellions, is what all the hype can produce. Sickening.

I'm actually surprised, with that much drama, that the incident didn't make any news that I saw. It's possible that it did happen, and I did hear of some different dramatic incidents at various stores, but it's also important to keep in mind that CS, like any forum, does sometimes contain fiction.  ;)
.

As a mod there, I'm sorry to report we do have quite a few tale tale tellers. :(

Vast majority of community is wonderful, but we do have a few members whose stories always  induce much eye rolling.
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Amara on December 02, 2013, 06:03:45 PM
Quote
As a mod there, I'm sorry to report we do have quite a few tale tale tellers. :(

Vast majority of community is wonderful, but we do have a few members whose stories always  induce much eye rolling.


Color me embarrassed then. :-[ I should have wondered about that, but I didn't because I don't follow any news. I just thought I missed it.

Peppergirl, my favorite poster there is Argabarga. He tells wonderful stories. I hope they are all true. And I hope that some day he takes his writing skills and writes a book about those stories. I'd buy it!

Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Peppergirl on December 02, 2013, 06:12:21 PM
^ Oh, don't be. I wasn't referring to this story...just in general.

Arga is awesome. Very low key and definitely genuine. :)
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Redneck Gravy on December 03, 2013, 09:02:50 AM
The local news and Facebook had videos of shoppers being pepper sprayed at one of our Walmarts.

This may be the last year I deal with WM and their inconsistent Black Thursday/Friday deals but that is for another thread. 

I got the one most important thing on my list and it was for my grand kids (and I got it online).  Then I did the Saturday Local Vendors shopping.



Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Another Sarah on December 03, 2013, 09:16:42 AM
I was horrified this year to see Asda (UK Supermarket which used to be ASsociated DAiries but was taken over by Wal-Mart a few years ago) advertising Black Friday deals. We have the January sales for people to get murdered over a three-armed jumper in, we don't need another day. :'(
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: perpetua on December 03, 2013, 09:33:28 AM
I was horrified this year to see Asda (UK Supermarket which used to be ASsociated DAiries but was taken over by Wal-Mart a few years ago) advertising Black Friday deals. We have the January sales for people to get murdered over a three-armed jumper in, we don't need another day. :'(

Me too. People were injured and arrested in Bristol over cheap TVs, for goodness' sake. I actually can't believe that it's found its way over here and I'm hoping to goodness it's only because Asda is owned by Walmart, and that other retailers don't follow suit, and that Asda quickly realise what a dreadful concept it is and drop it pronto.

I love many things about our American friends. Black Friday is not one of them. The whole concept is something I find absolutely hideous - at least the idea of the doorbuster deals. It's just a hideous display of awful grabbing materialism. If it takes off here, I may consider emigrating to a small(er) island somewhere :)
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: Hmmmmm on December 03, 2013, 11:16:28 AM
I was horrified this year to see Asda (UK Supermarket which used to be ASsociated DAiries but was taken over by Wal-Mart a few years ago) advertising Black Friday deals. We have the January sales for people to get murdered over a three-armed jumper in, we don't need another day. :'(

Me too. People were injured and arrested in Bristol over cheap TVs, for goodness' sake. I actually can't believe that it's found its way over here and I'm hoping to goodness it's only because Asda is owned by Walmart, and that other retailers don't follow suit, and that Asda quickly realise what a dreadful concept it is and drop it pronto.

I love many things about our American friends. Black Friday is not one of them. The whole concept is something I find absolutely hideous - at least the idea of the doorbuster deals. It's just a hideous display of awful grabbing materialism. If it takes off here, I may consider emigrating to a small(er) island somewhere :)

To put the door buster deals into perspective, many retailers used them to entice customers into their stores earlier in the day instead of waiting until prime shopping hours.

For example, Macy's Department store will have "door buster" deals throughout the year when they have major sales. So if you come into the store say before 11am, you might get an additional 20% off a set of cookware. Or they might have specific sweaters on sale for 60% off the retail price.  Even with Black Friday shopping, major toy stores might have sales for the early bird shopper. It was an effort to increase crowds from 8am store opening to mid day which was when most shoppers headed out to the stores and malls. It was no different from theaters offering "matinee" pricing for shows. Offer a discount for when less people would normally attend a movie to maybe entice them to go to a show at 4pm versus the more popular 8pm showing.

So having items marked down for a specific time period isn't a "hideous display of awful grabbing materialism" in my opinion. The people who resort to violence to be able to score one of these heavily advertised deals that Walmart promotes for Black Friday are the ones guilty of "hideous display of awful grabbing materialism".
Title: Re: Retailers Opening on Thanksgiving Day
Post by: perpetua on December 03, 2013, 12:03:19 PM
So having items marked down for a specific time period isn't a "hideous display of awful grabbing materialism" in my opinion. The people who resort to violence to be able to score one of these heavily advertised deals that Walmart promotes for Black Friday are the ones guilty of "hideous display of awful grabbing materialism".

Yes, quite. That's exactly what I was referring to.

From what I read, Asda did the same thing here. They huge deals on TVs, but only had 25 or thereabouts in stock. It was total carnage.