Etiquette Hell

General Etiquette => Family and Children => Topic started by: Katana_Geldar on December 09, 2013, 11:57:58 PM

Title: Just about had enough... (Long) Updates 53, 62 Final 99
Post by: Katana_Geldar on December 09, 2013, 11:57:58 PM
Well, posted about a year or so ago about the dramas kicked up by my sisters in relation to our wedding. Younger sister was going overseas on our wedding date after we'd booked everything and told us to change it. When that died down I was hoping that there would be no more dramas, but that hasn't happened.

Following that was a drama about where to spend Christmas last year, we wanted to stay home and my sisters thought we should be with family. We had a VERY nice Christmas at home. :)

Then, there was the baby. And that was big. Younger sister is a doctor (not long out of uni) and fervently disagreed with our plans for care and the birth with some very unpleasant text messages that upset me and made DH angry. This was rather recently and there's still a bit of tension around.

Now, my Dad wanted to have a lunch or dinner with all of us before Christmas while my sisters are visiting from interstate. This we have been planning for months, and it wasn't until last month that I did something about it because no one else would. And this is while I was suffering from early pregnancy woes. It is booked on the same day as the annual family Christmas get together, which my Dad, DH and I knew when I booked, but we had decided then that we'd rather have lunch in a nice restaurant anyway. It's much easier for DH and I to get to and we'd avoid the crowds that DH doesn't like. And I thought my sisters knew the date clash too and were ok with it.

Last week, both my sisters realised the family Christmas thing was the same day and suggested (rather patronisingly) that we should go to that instead.  So now it's blown up into this huge thing that is really unnecessary. My Dads dealing with it and I told him I didn't want to be involved any more and he agrees that they're wrong.

But this is just one thing after many, and a rather small thing if you think about it. And DH just can't take it anymore. I get upset, we argue and it's just unpleasant all around.

I'm considering calling the whole thing off as it's just too much. They're probably not going to come, we are seeing my Dad Christmas so it's no big loss on ours or his part. I'm also reconsidering the entire relationship I gave with my sisters. It's seems every so often there's new drama and unpleasantness, and that's not something I want our child to be around.

Any ideas? Suggestions?
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long)
Post by: JoyinVirginia on December 10, 2013, 12:24:47 AM
I remember my mother and her sisters arguing, frequently. Mom would get upset. The aunts and my mom would not be taking to each other. My dad and I thought the silence and calm were heavenly. My mother missed her sisters, they started talking again, cycle began again.
Your dh and your child are your primary family now. Do what is best for the three of you.
PS my mom and her sisters argued all their lives. Mom is 93 now and the only one still alive. I don't miss my aunts one bit.
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long)
Post by: hannahmollysmom on December 10, 2013, 12:59:26 AM
My family always leaves the planning up to me. I now say, this is what we are going to do and when. If you can't make it, sorry, see you next time.

Years ago, I used to do my best to work around everyone, and it never happened that everyone was happy about everything. I no longer worry about it. With age comes spine!
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long)
Post by: aiki on December 10, 2013, 02:40:06 AM
You should probably have made it clear to your sisters that you were planning this for the same day as the family Christmas thing, so there was no mistaking from the start that you intended to do the lunch with Dad instead, but that's in the past now.

What does your Dad want to do? If he still wants to do lunch with you, I'd do that, because since the invitation has already been extended to him it would be rude to cancel. If he wants to go to the family thing, then stay home and eat pizza in your pyjamas with hubby and relax.

They can only patronise you if you let them. You're an adult and you're allowed to tell younger sister when she's overstepped the mark. Try these words on for size: "Sis, you're not my doctor. If you were and you behaved like that, I'd be talking to your practice manager before getting my records transferred to someone who understands boundaries." 
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long)
Post by: MamaMootz on December 10, 2013, 04:56:36 AM
IF it were me, I would go see Dad as planned whether or not the sisters are coming. And I would cut the sisters off.
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long)
Post by: YummyMummy66 on December 10, 2013, 05:23:53 AM
So, you have an annual Christmas family get together, but you and your dh decide to plan the luncheon on the same day?
Because your dh does not like crowds and it is much easier for you and your dh to get to?

Am I missing something?  (Yes, there appears to be more history here), but honestly, I think you and your dh were and are in the wrong here.   

Is this annual Christmas get together something that dad will be going to also?  So, he is to go to a lunch and then another Christmas get together?

Also, you say the planning has been in the stages for months.  With who?  Were the sisters ever involved in the planning or just you, your dh and dad?   

Why would you plan a luncheon on the same day as the annual family Christmas get together?   
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long)
Post by: sammycat on December 10, 2013, 05:35:54 AM
So, you have an annual Christmas family get together, but you and your dh decide to plan the luncheon on the same day?
Because your dh does not like crowds and it is much easier for you and your dh to get to?

Am I missing something?  (Yes, there appears to be more history here), but honestly, I think you and your dh were and are in the wrong here.   

Is this annual Christmas get together something that dad will be going to also?  So, he is to go to a lunch and then another Christmas get together?

Also, you say the planning has been in the stages for months.  With who?  Were the sisters ever involved in the planning or just you, your dh and dad?   

Why would you plan a luncheon on the same day as the annual family Christmas get together?   

I have to say I was wondering the same thing.
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long)
Post by: *inviteseller on December 10, 2013, 06:39:58 AM
Honestly, it sounds like you made the plans for everyone that works best for your Dh and you without any input from your sisters.  I understand you have a tough relationship with them, but when planning a small family get together it is best to take everyone's wishes into consideration.  If I were your sister, I might be put off by having to decide which event to go to and would suggest moving your meal because it was planned after the annual family get together was.  If it is too much for you and your DH to socialize with them due to the stress, then don't do it, that I get, but to expect them to just go along with what you want is a bit rude.
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long)
Post by: Virg on December 10, 2013, 06:48:32 AM
*inviteseller wrote:

"Honestly, it sounds like you made the plans for everyone that works best for your Dh and you without any input from your sisters.  I understand you have a tough relationship with them, but when planning a small family get together it is best to take everyone's wishes into consideration."

In her defense, she said, "This we have been planning for months, and it wasn't until last month that I did something about it because no one else would."  If nobody else would take control of the planning, then they have little room to hold Katana_Geldar to task for doing it in the way that suits her and her DH best.  If the sisters wanted a say, they had months to put their two cents in, and they knew a month before the event when it was going to be.

Virg
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long)
Post by: Katana_Geldar on December 10, 2013, 06:49:15 AM
My dad had already planned to have the lunch on that day a number of weeks befor the family Christmas was announced. In fact, he actually tried to help organise it but found no one interested in planning anything. So, he went with the suggestion that we just went for lunch ourselves.

The date was planned with me, my dad and my sisters, but no one was doing something until a few weeks ago when I knew we had to boo something or we wouldn't get in anywhere. I knew the family Christmas lunch was on, but DH and I were not going, and neither was my dad.

And why would I plan it the same day? Well, we already were going to do something anyway and not go. Neither DH and I were keen on going. DH doesn't like crowds and doesn't really know my family, I wasn't keen on the long distance to get there and back (three hours of travel on public transport on a weekend) and we're not very close to my dads extended family. He has said in the past that he does not expect us to go to the large family gatherings, he doesn't himself and they don't go out of their way to see us so why should we.

And yes, there is history there. My younger sisters are used to getting me to do things they want and had the full sponsorship of my mum and stepfather. It's inly fairly recently I've been standing up to them. And they hate that.

I still don't understand why they'd rather see extended family than their own sister.

And invite seller, no one has suggested on doing it a different day. I would be open to it, but they just want to cancel the whole thing.
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long)
Post by: cheyne on December 10, 2013, 07:31:41 AM
If they want to cancel, then cancel them.  Get together with your Dad for lunch.  You say your Dad doesn't attend the big family "do", so you and your DH take him out to lunch.

It sounds like you want your sisters to want to spend time with you on your terms.  That may not be possible, as they are adults who are allowed to make their own plans and decisions on how to spend their time.  You can only invite them, it's up to them to accept or decline as they see fit.
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long)
Post by: JoyinVirginia on December 10, 2013, 07:44:26 AM
Your dh and baby are your family now. Everyone else is just relatives.
Go have lunch with your dad. Tell your sisters that you will miss them.
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long)
Post by: TootsNYC on December 10, 2013, 07:57:54 AM
Quote
But this is just one thing after many, and a rather small thing if you think about it. And DH just can't take it anymore. I get upset, we argue and it's just unpleasant all around.

Stop arguing about it. Stop getting upset.

I know, it's easier said than done.

But you -are- ready for the next step, which is to stop -caring- what they think or say or do. Just don't care anymore.

It's especially important for you to figure out how to compartmentalize them, because you -must- keep them out of your marriage. And out of your parenting.

Try to find that "amused, superior detachment." (I often mention Ronald Reagan's "there you go again!" to Jimmy Carter during the debates--it was a masterful stroke of belittling, and it is a terrific model to apply, even if only mentally, when people deserve it. And I think these two do.)

Maybe mentally say it out loud--"there they go again!" As if they're an interesting phenomenon.

Because the drama is only real if you let it be. Everybody's mental trick for detaching is different; it's like figuring out how to fall asleep--it's impossible to describe, impossible to teach, and only learned through the trial-and-error of practice.

Maybe you need a catch phrase you can repeat to yourself: "They are not my nuclear family" or "I do not need to make them happy" or "I don't have to care what they think or what they say."

Or JoyinVirginia's: "DH and Baby are my family now. They are just relatives."
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long)
Post by: rigs32 on December 10, 2013, 08:29:26 AM
Clearly there's a history here, but I think the holiday lunch conflict is unfair to your sisters.

You may have been planning that date for months, but if they are visiting from out of town it's a lot easier to change a lunch with a small group rather than asking for the extended family event to be rescheduled.  Even if you don't want to attend, they have a right to want to try and do both.  I don't think it's fair to apply the "you committed to my event first rule" in this situation, but that's because it involves family, holidays, and travel. 

You don't have to do what they want, but they don't have to do what you want. 
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long)
Post by: HenrysMom on December 10, 2013, 09:48:25 AM
Personally, I don't know if you're still pregnant or if the baby has arrived, but either way, you don't need this kind of stress.  Have lunch with DH and your father on that day, if you three still want, and let your sisters make the arrangements to see you at another time.  If they won't, it's on them, no matter how much they caterwaul.
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long)
Post by: #borecore on December 10, 2013, 10:25:38 AM
I'm with the sisters on this one. You don't plan a get-together during another when people are visiting from out of town, have a limited time to visit with each person, and are relying on you, as the locals, to plan their gatherings.

It's just not nice, sorry.

My background is that my paternal and maternal families were of different faiths, and the one side didn't respect or care about the other's traditions. So every other year or so, they'd plan a Hanukkah party ... on Christmas day. When it's an eight-day holiday, and sometimes they'd even do it if Hanukkah had been over for a couple of days, or even if Hanukkah spanned a couple of more convenient weekend days. They know what Christmas is, they know my family celebrates it, they just thought it was funny. We went the first year they did it, thinking, "We can't miss the annual Hanukkah party!" and ... never again. Christmas wasn't "more important" than Hanukkah, but it was only one day, and it was disrespectful of them to be inflexible and unaccommodating of our side of the family.

I understand that your husband doesn't like their parties, or something. And I understand that they're not willing to bend over backward (or even do anything) to accommodate you, but expecting them to do what you want just because you planned it isn't fair to them.
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long)
Post by: nayberry on December 10, 2013, 10:31:55 AM
as you planned and booked the lunch before the get together was organised, then you, dh & your dad have lunch and if your sisters want to be woe is me about missing either lunch or the party, let them.  you booked first. you have the prior engagement
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long)
Post by: m2kbug on December 10, 2013, 11:19:33 AM
I think because your sisters are coming in from out of town, it would be nice to arrange a time that didn't interfere with the big family Christmas shin-dig.  If your sisters want to cancel or cannot/will not find a time that works better, then you, DH, and your dad should continue with your lunch plans as scheduled.  Neither of you plan to go to the Christmas party anyway. 

I think it's fine that you took the reigns and picked a date/time.  Somebody had to do it and it's a place to start.  When the gala popped up or some other conflict arises, I think it's reasonable to work out another time/date within reason.  Sometimes it's impossible to please everyone, which ultimately leaves someone out, and such is life. 
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long)
Post by: padua on December 10, 2013, 11:31:30 AM
as you planned and booked the lunch before the get together was organised, then you, dh & your dad have lunch and if your sisters want to be woe is me about missing either lunch or the party, let them.  you booked first. you have the prior engagement

but she booked after the date was set for the party:

"It is booked on the same day as the annual family Christmas get together, which my Dad, DH and I knew when I booked, but we had decided then that we'd rather have lunch in a nice restaurant anyway. It's much easier for DH and I to get to and we'd avoid the crowds that DH doesn't like. And I thought my sisters knew the date clash too and were ok with it."

she doesn't have the prior engagement. because of this (and because your sisters may not have realized the lunch clashed with the party unless you specifically said to them- "i just wanted you to know the lunch reservation is set on the same day as the party"), i think the OP should reschedule, especially if she already knew the sisters were interested in attending.
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long)
Post by: Hmmmmm on December 10, 2013, 11:36:03 AM
Do I have this right?

Dad said "Let's have lunch on the 21st when your sister's are in town."
Everyone agreed
No one made plans for where or when.
Annual family get together is planned for the 21st.
You, your DH, and your Dad to not plan to attend the family event.
You decide to make reservations for the lunch.
You send out the details to everyone.
Your sister's realize it's the same date as the annual event which they had planned to attend while visiting from out of town.
They asked you change the date.
You, your DH, and your Dad are refusing to change the date.

Now your mad they asked and they are mad you won't.

Honestly, I can understand not wanting to always acquiesce to others demands. But is it really that difficult to switch to a different date? If your schedule is booked with activities or work, then that's just how it is and they can choose to not attend your Dad's lunch. But I would try to come up with some type of compromise or have a discussion other than "you knew that was the date and we ain't changing".
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long)
Post by: Roe on December 10, 2013, 11:37:48 AM
Sorry, I'm with your sisters on this one for reasons other PP's have mentioned. 
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long)
Post by: nayberry on December 10, 2013, 11:43:04 AM
as you planned and booked the lunch before the get together was organised, then you, dh & your dad have lunch and if your sisters want to be woe is me about missing either lunch or the party, let them.  you booked first. you have the prior engagement

but she booked after the date was set for the party:

"It is booked on the same day as the annual family Christmas get together, which my Dad, DH and I knew when I booked, but we had decided then that we'd rather have lunch in a nice restaurant anyway. It's much easier for DH and I to get to and we'd avoid the crowds that DH doesn't like. And I thought my sisters knew the date clash too and were ok with it."

she doesn't have the prior engagement. because of this (and because your sisters may not have realized the lunch clashed with the party unless you specifically said to them- "i just wanted you to know the lunch reservation is set on the same day as the party"), i think the OP should reschedule, especially if she already knew the sisters were interested in attending.


and yet they had agreed to have a smaller get together before the big bash was planned.
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long)
Post by: lmyrs on December 10, 2013, 11:58:57 AM
I get that the date of the big family event was set after the date for the small lunch was set. But, the big family event takes into consideration many, many people while the small lunch takes in 5. If I have plans with my dad and two sisters for lunch on December 28 and then my aunt contacts everyone and says, "December 28 is the extended family Xmas time because it works for the majority", then I'd move lunch if at all possible. Because even if I or my dad didn't want to go to aunt's house, my sisters do and why would I make them choose unless they absolutely have to?

The other thing about saying, "well we booked the 28th first so you can come anyway or go to the family thing but it's not my problem", is that while the OP doesn't care whether or not she sees her sisters, it seems her dad does care. And, it's her dad who will be hurt if no one is willing to compromise on this. So, if he wants to see 2 of his daughters, he had to go to the big family event and then he won't see OP. Or he can dig his heels in with OP and then not see the other 2.

I can understand not wanting to bend over backwards to accommodate the sisters, but I don't know why you can't compromise in order to make your dad's life a bit easier.
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long)
Post by: SamiHami on December 10, 2013, 01:43:56 PM
Is there a reason why the lunch can't be moved to a different day? Is your dad insisting that it must be on that specific date?
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long)
Post by: TootsNYC on December 10, 2013, 01:48:27 PM
Is there a reason why the lunch can't be moved to a different day? Is your dad insisting that it must be on that specific date?


Or a different time of day? Get together for breakfast, or for a light/late supper?
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long)
Post by: mime on December 10, 2013, 01:58:57 PM
Here's my take on the situation--

I imagined several emails passing back and forth following a progression like

"We should get together for lunch somewhere", followed by general agreement, but no action.

Then the big gathering was announced.

Then emails continued with "how about the 21st for lunch?", followed by agreement from Dad and no response from sisters. There may have been an aside conversation with Dad about the date conflict, but OP and Dad were OK with it.

Next emails: "I made reservations at NiceRestaraunt on the 21st at 1:00", followed by no response from sisters.

Later: sisters finally decide to say something.

This is how it played out in my imagination because DH and I are horrible at responding to emails where things are being planned. We fully accept that conflicts that arise because we didn't check our calendar or didn't speak up are entirely our problem to deal with.

I also get the impression that the sisters have a habit of being bossy, so when the conflict is finally realized weeks after the plans are made, they expect everyone to change everything for their sake.

In my mind (framed in my own interpretation of the story), I don't think things need to change for the sisters. It would be nice to do so, but not rude to stick with the original plan. I'd probably do what you (OP) suggest at the end of your post: just cancel the lunch. You and Dad will still see each other on Christmas which is not far away, you don't really care to see the extended family, and you don't have to engage with your stressors... uh, I mean, sisters.

I think your sisters have been in the wrong in the past. This situation appears to be a little less unanimous given the postings so far. I think you're ready to get upset by your sisters for everything right now-- like you're reaching your breaking point. I think you and DH and baby should enjoy your time alone together, enjoy Christmas with Dad, and deal with your sisters when after you've had a bit more time apart from them.

Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long)
Post by: Deetee on December 10, 2013, 02:21:50 PM
You specifically picked a date that excluded your sisters or forced them to pick between two events, when you knew they would likely want to attend both.

You stated very clearly that your preferences for this (as far as you have posted) fairly arbitrary date overtook any consideration to let them attend both event. Now that is not a bad thing. But you need to own it and not do any waffling about how "no-one was organizing" or "husband doesn't like crowds". You picked a date that you knew would not work for them because you are tired of them interfering in your life.

So stop arguing with them or trying to pretend you didn't do that. Shrug your shoulders and tell them they are free to orgainise whatever they want.
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long)
Post by: Katana_Geldar on December 10, 2013, 02:33:45 PM
Just a note on the date, this was all agreed on before the family event was scheduled. And the way it appears, it doesn't look like we can reschedule. DH and I have theatre tickets the night before, this has been known for months and that date was out. My dad suggested that we all go to lunch and that he would take them to the family thing after, but it looks as if they're travelling that night up to my mums.

Postponement was never suggested, or even another date when I could see them. They just want to cancel the whole thing. I've thought about trying to see them at another date, perhaps after Christmas, but the whole thing has left a bad taste in my mouth and they haven't suggested anything either.
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long)
Post by: Lauds on December 10, 2013, 02:36:11 PM
See, my take on what happened, from the various OP posts is:

Dad: let's all have lunch on the 21st
All sisters (including OP): okay
No one books anything, but everyone agrees that the lunch is on the 21st and talk continues for months

Big family event date is announced

OP decides that someone needs to book the original lunch and does it on the already agreed date, not bothered about the clash
OP let's dad and sisters know about booking
No one says anything about clash so OP assumes they don't mind

Sisters finally realise clash and demand lunch be cancelled
From here I'm not sure if the OP suggested different dates which were rejected by sisters or not, but it doesn't sound like the sisters suggested doing anything other than cancelling the long planned but recently finalised lunch.

Given that the lunch was agreed to months before the family event was announced, that was the prior engagement even though the final details were arranged afterwards. Sure, the OP could have checked with everyone if they still wanted to do lunch that day before booking a restaurant but the sisters could have suggested changing the date of the lunch when the family event was announced or have spoken up when advised of the booking. I can't really blame the OP for assuming the lunch was still happening and just needed a venue when no one else said anything about changing it.

My suggestion would be the OP, her DH, and her father go have lunch as planned and let the sisters go to the family event. I think they'll find it much more pleasant than the original plan given the background!
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long)
Post by: EllenS on December 10, 2013, 03:38:13 PM
As a mom of 2, I have no specific insight on this scenario, but general principles:

1) A pregnant woman/new mom needs to reduce her stress. This is a big priority for your health, the baby's health, and the relationship with your DH.  If that means distance from people who create stress and drama, so be it, at least temporarily.

2) A pregnant woman/new mom is hopped up on umpty-seven different mind-altering hormones, which drive her to protect her baby from sabre-toothed tigers.  As a result, she tends to see every situation as being up a tree, surrounded by sabre-toothed tigers.  This may or may not be an accurate reflection of reality.

Major life decisions and dramatic gestures that can permanently affect important relationships, should be avoided as much as possible during pregnancy and the first several months of baby's life. This has the added benefit of helping with point no.1 (reducing your stress).

Hugs and wishing the best for your family.
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long)
Post by: Queen of Clubs on December 10, 2013, 03:47:25 PM
Just a note on the date, this was all agreed on before the family event was scheduled. And the way it appears, it doesn't look like we can reschedule. DH and I have theatre tickets the night before, this has been known for months and that date was out. My dad suggested that we all go to lunch and that he would take them to the family thing after, but it looks as if they're travelling that night up to my mums.

Postponement was never suggested, or even another date when I could see them. They just want to cancel the whole thing. I've thought about trying to see them at another date, perhaps after Christmas, but the whole thing has left a bad taste in my mouth and they haven't suggested anything either.

I'd go ahead with the lunch with your dad and husband and let your sisters do whatever they want.  They can't insist that you three not meet for lunch.  If they'd rather attend the big family get together, that's their choice.

If they want to meet up with you at some point, leave it to them to suggest a date to meet.  If you're not interested in meeting with them, decline whatever dates they suggest.

Maybe you'll feel better about your relationship with your sisters if you step back for a while and take a break from them.  Maybe you won't feel better (especially if they keep annoying you), but it sounds like taking a break from them is what you need.
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long)
Post by: Mergatroyd on December 10, 2013, 04:12:26 PM
If my understanding is correct (and i did read the whole thread) then this is what went down:

Summer/ early fall:
Dad says "let's do lunch at christmas!"
Everyone else, "Sure!"
Conversation ensues, the date is specified, but reservations are not made.

Another month or two goes by:
OP:" Are we still doing lunch on set date?"
Everyone else: "Yes!"
OP: "Has anyone made a reservation, or have a restaurant in mind?"
Everyone else: *silence*


Recently:
Op looks at the calendar, realises set date is approaching, confirms date is still ok (affirmative from dad, silence from sisters), and knowing that reservations are booking up fast, calls and arranges a table for 5 at X restaurant on set day for lunch.
Op sends out notice that lunch is at X restaurant, reservation at Y time (probably 12:30 or 1?)
Dad replies "Great!"
Sisters say, "Oh, we just found out big family that dad doesn't associate with is on the same day. Let's cancel lunch and all go to that instead!"
OP says "We weren't planning on attending that."
Dad says "me either. But I will go with sisters after lunch if they need a ride."
Sisters say "No, no lunch, just big family do."

Now: to cancel or not to cancel. OP, I would ask your Dad.
"Dad, we aren't going to make it to big family do. We'd love to still have lunch on set day, but as we'll see you on christmas day, we'll understand if you want to cancel the lunch and just attend the big family do with sisters because of their schedule."

In my mind, he is the one that matters here. You don't really seem to care if you see the sisters or not (for which I don't blame you given the backstory) but given they ate going from big family do straight to Ma and stepdad's that may be the only time your Dad gets to see them during the holidays. He probably well knows that he won't get to visit them much at big family do, but it is what it is, and it should be his choice.
You and your DH have already decided not to attend big family do, I don't see why you would be expected to change that. In my mind, the only thing you have to decide is if you and DH are going to go for lunch by yourselves or stay home if your dad wants to cancel.


 
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long)
Post by: Katana_Geldar on December 10, 2013, 04:27:30 PM
My Dad doesn't want to cancel, he's still trying to get them to come to the lunch but I don't think he'll succeed.
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long)
Post by: TootsNYC on December 10, 2013, 04:33:07 PM
You know, some of this (them being upset; him being bummed that they won't come) is on your dad. Leave it with him. Put it down, walk away.  ;) Let him handle it all.
   "I love you, Dad, here's when I'm available. I'll come if I can. Let me know."
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long)
Post by: Mergatroyd on December 10, 2013, 04:38:08 PM
My Dad doesn't want to cancel, he's still trying to get them to come to the lunch but I don't think he'll succeed.
Don't worry about it then. Tell him you'll be at the restaurant. He can have lunch with you. If they don't show up, that's on them. He has chosen lunch, and so have you. Have fun.:)
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long)
Post by: Oh Joy on December 10, 2013, 04:38:52 PM
My Dad doesn't want to cancel, he's still trying to get them to come to the lunch but I don't think he'll succeed.

That's the part I don't quite understand.

The smaller family event was scheduled, then the larger event - to which everyone in the smaller group is invited - for the same time.  In my perfect world, the folks in the smaller group would ask each other if there were preferences for attending one or the other, and rescheduling the smaller event if families were leaning in different directions. 

I think the misstep is in any family member attempting to force their own personal choice on the others.  Why the push/pull/conflict?
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long)
Post by: LifeOnPluto on December 10, 2013, 08:43:21 PM
Just a note on the date, this was all agreed on before the family event was scheduled. And the way it appears, it doesn't look like we can reschedule. DH and I have theatre tickets the night before, this has been known for months and that date was out. My dad suggested that we all go to lunch and that he would take them to the family thing after, but it looks as if they're travelling that night up to my mums.

Postponement was never suggested, or even another date when I could see them. They just want to cancel the whole thing. I've thought about trying to see them at another date, perhaps after Christmas, but the whole thing has left a bad taste in my mouth and they haven't suggested anything either.

OP, would your dad be willing to meet for breakfast or brunch instead? That might give your sisters enough time to see your dad, travel to the family event, then travel to your mum's place.
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long)
Post by: Aluminum on December 10, 2013, 10:27:13 PM
Quote
DH and Baby are my family now. They are just relatives.


I have to say that to hear my sister refer to me as "not family, just a relative"? Would be absolutely gutting. GUTTING.  I think I get the gist, but wow--this phrasing would honestly break my heart. 


(edited due to quote-borking, then managed to double-post, then deleted the wrong one.  It was a mess of poor posting!)
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long)
Post by: PastryGoddess on December 10, 2013, 10:36:15 PM
I posted this on another thread, but my family has started a new tradition.  2 of my male cousins who just brought a house host a Christmas breakfast/brunch/lunch/supper.  It starts early around 7am to accomodate the family members who go to church.  We make enough food for them to eat before heading out.  Those of us who don't go to church begin to pour wine/champagne/mimosas/etc and eat a leisurely breakfast.  Some folks head to the basement, others watch a bit of TV, the radio comes on, card games come out and we veg. Right around lunchtime, the church folks come back.  More people show up, this time with lunchy stuff.  More eating, more drinking, more vegging around with family.  Around mid afternoon folks start heading home to eat xmas dinner with their families.  Everyone is gone by about 7pm or so.

No more rushing around on Xmas to get here and there to visit and cook and eat.  People do their thing on xmas and then come and join us when they are ready. 

I'm not saying the above is what you have to do, but maybe take away the formality of having "lunch" and just invite dad and sisters over to hang out until it's time for them to leave.  Tell them to stop by at a time that works best for you and doesn't have them there for too long getting on your nerves.  This may not work if you are working on a Doctorate in Professional Holiday Vegging, and they are working on a Master's in !!eleventyIcan'tSitStill :)
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long)
Post by: Jones on December 11, 2013, 07:16:51 AM
Quote
DH and Baby are my family now. They are just relatives.


I have to say that to hear my sister refer to me as "not family, just a relative"? Would be absolutely gutting. GUTTING.  I think I get the gist, but wow--this phrasing would honestly break my heart. 


(edited due to quote-borking, then managed to double-post, then deleted the wrong one.  It was a mess of poor posting!)

See, I was thinking it was perfect phrasing for the phenomenon that has occurred in my family. I have two brothers and one sister with whom we stay in touch and see regularly; the others are great FB friends and it's nice to see them at baptisms, Easter, Independence Day, Thanksgiving and Christmas; I could say the same about my cousins.
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long)
Post by: Magnet on December 11, 2013, 07:37:01 AM
Quote
DH and Baby are my family now. They are just relatives.


I have to say that to hear my sister refer to me as "not family, just a relative"? Would be absolutely gutting. GUTTING.  I think I get the gist, but wow--this phrasing would honestly break my heart. 


(edited due to quote-borking, then managed to double-post, then deleted the wrong one.  It was a mess of poor posting!)

Thank you for saying that.  I too find the "just a relative" statement demeaning.
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long)
Post by: esposita on December 11, 2013, 07:48:48 AM
Quote
DH and Baby are my family now. They are just relatives.


I have to say that to hear my sister refer to me as "not family, just a relative"? Would be absolutely gutting. GUTTING.  I think I get the gist, but wow--this phrasing would honestly break my heart. 


(edited due to quote-borking, then managed to double-post, then deleted the wrong one.  It was a mess of poor posting!)

Thank you for saying that.  I too find the "just a relative" statement demeaning.

Perhaps it is demeaning when applied to families in general. But when an individual has a FOO with a different set of values, or constantly stirs up drama; when there are differences that will not reconcile, you have to take a step back for the sake your spouse and children - your family. And this means that others become "relatives." It can be a very appropriate and healthy transition, though I think we could all agree that its sad when things go that way.

edited because i said "husband" instead of kids... :P
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long)
Post by: ladyknight1 on December 11, 2013, 09:00:06 AM
OP, I think you should continue with the plans to have lunch with your dad.

I completely understand the relative, not family relationship. I have one sister and two cousins that are family to me. I have people on DH's side that are family to me. I have a sister and extended family that are just relatives. It has to go both ways, and when one person is trying to maintain the relationship but the other side is not? That is what happens.
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long)
Post by: Roe on December 11, 2013, 10:44:12 AM
I still don't understand why the OP, her sisters and her dad can't meet for breakfast.  Did I miss something?  That way, the sisters can go to the family event as well.  OP and her dad can stay home if they prefer but at least that way everyone wins. 
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long)
Post by: Mergatroyd on December 11, 2013, 12:04:03 PM
It sounds like the sisters don't want to meet at all. OP has said that they want to cancel the entire thing.  I would take that to mean that they have no intention of seeing OP or Dad at all, since they know they won't be at the big do. Sure, breakfast would be easy enough, but if they don't wanna, they don't wanna.
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long)
Post by: Eeep! on December 11, 2013, 12:13:31 PM
It sounds like the sisters don't want to meet at all. OP has said that they want to cancel the entire thing.  I would take that to mean that they have no intention of seeing OP or Dad at all, since they know they won't be at the big do. Sure, breakfast would be easy enough, but if they don't wanna, they don't wanna.

This was my impression too. The sisters have made no indication that they want to try to work anything out. They just jumped right to cancel.  If I was the OP that would clearly show me where I stood with them and I would make my decisions accordingly.
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long)
Post by: PastryGoddess on December 11, 2013, 12:56:05 PM
And maybe that's why they are "relatives" and not "family" to the OP any longer
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long)
Post by: Katana_Geldar on December 11, 2013, 02:35:54 PM
And breakfast or brunch wouldn't work either. DH and I have theatre tickets the night before, we don't want an early morning. The family thing starts at 11 and there's travel time, so they'd have to leave early.

And yes, there's the fact that they haven't suggested anything else.
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long)
Post by: Roe on December 11, 2013, 03:36:15 PM
And breakfast or brunch wouldn't work either. DH and I have theatre tickets the night before, we don't want an early morning. The family thing starts at 11 and there's travel time, so they'd have to leave early.

So no breakfast meeting because it doesn't work for you and your DH.  Okay, I get it.  I think they got the message too.
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long)
Post by: Katana_Geldar on December 11, 2013, 04:41:13 PM
The idea of a breakfast has never even come up. I think they want to go out the night before too.
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long)
Post by: PastryGoddess on December 11, 2013, 04:46:03 PM
So now I'm wondering why are you having this get together if  you're going to see dad on Christmas anyway?  I think there is middle ground between having two family events at the same time and not having an event at all. 

If the goal is to get together and spend time together as a family, why not take the stress of the holidays out of the equation and plan something for after the new year, but before you get too caught up in getting ready for baby
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long)
Post by: Katana_Geldar on December 11, 2013, 04:53:40 PM
Because they're coming from interstate, and heading back soon after Christmas. You do have a point about the event and I am considering telling my Dad we call the whole thing off and we'll see him at Christmas.
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long)
Post by: Piratelvr1121 on December 11, 2013, 05:10:07 PM
Quote
DH and Baby are my family now. They are just relatives.


I have to say that to hear my sister refer to me as "not family, just a relative"? Would be absolutely gutting. GUTTING.  I think I get the gist, but wow--this phrasing would honestly break my heart. 


(edited due to quote-borking, then managed to double-post, then deleted the wrong one.  It was a mess of poor posting!)

Thank you for saying that.  I too find the "just a relative" statement demeaning.

Perhaps it is demeaning when applied to families in general. But when an individual has a FOO with a different set of values, or constantly stirs up drama; when there are differences that will not reconcile, you have to take a step back for the sake your spouse and children - your family. And this means that others become "relatives." It can be a very appropriate and healthy transition, though I think we could all agree that its sad when things go that way.

edited because i said "husband" instead of kids... :P

I can absolutely understand the "Not family, just relatives" sentiment as I have a few of those. People I will acknowledge as being part of my FOO but I don't have a good relationship with them, or no relationship, so they are relatives but as far as family goes, in my heart, that includes DH, my 3 boys, my in-laws, and extremely close friends.
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long)
Post by: Katana_Geldar on December 13, 2013, 12:45:03 AM
Update: received a text message from younger sister asking if I was going to the family Christmas lunch.

Not really sure how to respond or even if I should, as it might start the whole thing again.
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long) mini update 53
Post by: PastryGoddess on December 13, 2013, 06:34:49 AM
Just respond no.  You don't owe her an explanation about why you won't be there. 

Remember, you just need to live your boundaries.  No need to state them out loud, it just makes people think they can start a conversation with you about them.
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long)
Post by: Oh Joy on December 13, 2013, 06:43:00 AM
Update: received a text message from younger sister asking if I was going to the family Christmas lunch.

Not really sure how to respond or even if I should, as it might start the whole thing again.

Can you just say, 'We'll be at Restaurant that afternoon...BigEvent isn't really our thing.  Hope to see you, but I understand if you choose BigEvent.  Safe travels either way!'
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long)
Post by: TootsNYC on December 13, 2013, 06:58:03 AM
Update: received a text message from younger sister asking if I was going to the family Christmas lunch.

Not really sure how to respond or even if I should, as it might start the whole thing again.

Can you just say, 'We'll be at Restaurant that afternoon...BigEvent isn't really our thing.  Hope to see you, but I understand if you choose BigEvent.  Safe travels either way!'


Eh, just say, "No." That's simple, right? She asked a specific question. Just answer -that- question.

Drama and miscommunication come when you try to answer some other question that hasn't actually been asked. In Oh Joy's case (just bcs that's the easiest example to borrow), that wording is answering the question, "will you mind if we skip the lunch?"

Maybe she doesn't ever intend to ask that other question (whichever "other" question).

Just say, "No."   Or to soften it (bcs all by itself that seems abrupt, which seems harsh), "No, not this year."  or "No, not this year, unfortunately."

If you were at all willing to reconsider, say, "No, hadn't planned on it."
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long)
Post by: Oh Joy on December 13, 2013, 07:07:30 AM
Update: received a text message from younger sister asking if I was going to the family Christmas lunch.

Not really sure how to respond or even if I should, as it might start the whole thing again.

Can you just say, 'We'll be at Restaurant that afternoon...BigEvent isn't really our thing.  Hope to see you, but I understand if you choose BigEvent.  Safe travels either way!'


Eh, just say, "No." That's simple, right? She asked a specific question. Just answer -that- question.

Drama and miscommunication come when you try to answer some other question that hasn't actually been asked. In Oh Joy's case (just bcs that's the easiest example to borrow), that wording is answering the question, "will you mind if we skip the lunch?"

Maybe she doesn't ever intend to ask that other question (whichever "other" question).

Just say, "No."   Or to soften it (bcs all by itself that seems abrupt, which seems harsh), "No, not this year."  or "No, not this year, unfortunately."

If you were at all willing to reconsider, say, "No, hadn't planned on it."

I completely hear what you're saying, and agree that just saying 'No' is abrupt.  I'd just personally approach it with a tone of 'We're going to do what we want.  You're going to do what you want.  But I'm not going to play any drama games.'
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long) mini update 53
Post by: TootsNYC on December 13, 2013, 07:25:55 AM
I so agree with you on the idea that Katana_Gelder should just do what she wants.

But I think that expanding into other topics ("do you mind if I don't come?") that haven't actually formally been raised is a form of anticipating other people's conversation, and I don't think it's a smart tactic in a situation like this.

And in fact, in -this- conversation, there hasn't been any drama, so anticipating it and trying to send a message that you're not going to participate in it, is borderline rude--don't assume drama or rudeness on [my] part until [ I ]'ve actually done it, thank you [brackets to indicate, I mean a generic person]. I personally, as me, have had that done to me, and it takes me from non-drama to the edge of drama--instead of focusing on the pure facts ("are you going to the family lunch?") suddenly we're talking about whether I'm going to be upset--and I wasn't even upset in the first place. So, well, I'll -become- upset if you want me to!

The OP doesn't know why her sister is asking. Maybe once she hears "no, unfort." she'll think, 'Hmm, well, I guess I'd better go to Dad's lunch after all.' Why derail that? Sure, it might not happen, but give her the room to either be rude or not be rude.

So if a person wants to soften, which you and I both think is more comfortable, I think it's best to soften with blather ("unfortunately") instead of by bringing in some other actual issue ("do you mind" or something else).
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long) mini update 53
Post by: ladyknight1 on December 13, 2013, 07:33:06 AM
I POD Toots, as usual.

A simple answer to the question asked is best. You don't want to open up any more misunderstanding than has already occurred.

I hope things work out for all of you. Happy Holidays.
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long) mini update 53
Post by: Mergatroyd on December 13, 2013, 09:51:34 AM
 >:D "That won't be possible"
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long) mini update 53
Post by: esposita on December 13, 2013, 01:29:59 PM
I so agree with you on the idea that Katana_Gelder should just do what she wants.

But I think that expanding into other topics ("do you mind if I don't come?") that haven't actually formally been raised is a form of anticipating other people's conversation, and I don't think it's a smart tactic in a situation like this.

And in fact, in -this- conversation, there hasn't been any drama, so anticipating it and trying to send a message that you're not going to participate in it, is borderline rude--don't assume drama or rudeness on [my] part until [ I ]'ve actually done it, thank you [brackets to indicate, I mean a generic person]. I personally, as me, have had that done to me, and it takes me from non-drama to the edge of drama--instead of focusing on the pure facts ("are you going to the family lunch?") suddenly we're talking about whether I'm going to be upset--and I wasn't even upset in the first place. So, well, I'll -become- upset if you want me to!

The OP doesn't know why her sister is asking. Maybe once she hears "no, unfort." she'll think, 'Hmm, well, I guess I'd better go to Dad's lunch after all.' Why derail that? Sure, it might not happen, but give her the room to either be rude or not be rude.

So if a person wants to soften, which you and I both think is more comfortable, I think it's best to soften with blather ("unfortunately") instead of by bringing in some other actual issue ("do you mind" or something else).

Pod! I've had this done to me too, and either I'm clueless and don't take the bait which makes the other person even more mad or I get very quiet... as I try to figure out what the heck is going on... which just makes the other person think they've "won" and its a whole big mess. . . lol, sorry for the tangent!
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long) mini update 53
Post by: Katana_Geldar on December 13, 2013, 02:42:01 PM
Well, I have gotten back to them saying we were going to the lunch, and they've responded with trying to meet up either that night or the day before.

I'd like to, but from the nature of their messages it looks as if they've "moved on" from what happened and expect me to do so as well. And that's what's happened before, until the next drama. I don't want to get drawn back in to the same pattern of behaviour, which is what I'm afraid will happen if I do see them. I have left it open, saying that I do get tired easily from the pregnancy (very true) and we are going out that night, but a part of me wants to see them too.

However, it has taken all this time to realise this is the same pattern of behaviour I experienced with my mum and stepdad that I refused to have anything to do with two years ago, and I'm a much happier person for refusing to participate.
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long) Updates 53, 62
Post by: JoyinVirginia on December 13, 2013, 02:48:07 PM
You have perfect response! You are very tired, and so you don't wasn't to plan too many things because you may not have energy. So just respond that you can't commit to anything else at this point. When it gets closer, you can see how you feel then and take on another activity if you want.
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long) Updates 53, 62
Post by: TootsNYC on December 13, 2013, 02:56:20 PM
Quote
they've "moved on" from what happened and expect me to do so as well.

So, do so then. It will be healthiest for you:

Quote
I'm a much happier person for refusing to participate.


The hardest trick, I think, is to un-invest. I finally managed to do it w/ my brother. Oh, I'd still enjoy his compay when he was around; I'd juggle my schedule to see him when we are all at my parents', but I don't -care- so much anymore.

I wish you luck w/ your sisters.
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long) Updates 53, 62
Post by: Katana_Geldar on December 13, 2013, 03:00:11 PM
I don't mind moving on, what I do mind is being told to move on and forgive and forget about past hurts there haven't been, nor will their be, apologies for. That's what they mean by"moving on".
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long) Updates 53, 62
Post by: ladyknight1 on December 13, 2013, 03:07:45 PM
That is tough, and I completely understand. I hope you have a wonderful holiday no matter what.
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long) Updates 53, 62
Post by: Lynn2000 on December 13, 2013, 03:22:33 PM
It is really hard--yet also really important--to recognize patterns of behavior in our lives. I think that's a really big step. The next step is figuring out how to change that pattern, which is also sometimes difficult because all you know is you shouldn't do X, but you aren't sure what other options there are.

Re: apologies--that's frustrating and hurtful, yes. But I think if one sits around hoping others will realize they ought to apologize, while allowing them to experience no negative consequences for their behavior, that's a fruitless endeavor. I would suggest, instead, reducing their opportunities to do things to you that you think they should apologize for. Whether that's reducing contact with them, or reducing the amount of head space you give their comments. Sometimes I think we just have to lower our expectations of people, to avoid being continually hurt by them.
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long) Updates 53, 62
Post by: TinyVulgarUnicorn on December 13, 2013, 04:34:00 PM
Maybe I missed it somewhere in this thread, but how come your sisters can't meet up with your dad on one of the days that your sisters mentioned?  I know that you have plans, but maybe suggest to them that they should meet up with him sans you.
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long) Updates 53, 62
Post by: Katana_Geldar on December 13, 2013, 04:46:57 PM
They're staying with him. Presumably, they'll be seeing him.
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long) Updates 53, 62
Post by: DavidH on December 13, 2013, 05:50:43 PM
"Now, my Dad wanted to have a lunch or dinner with all of us before Christmas while my sisters are visiting from interstate. This we have been planning for months, and it wasn't until last month that I did something about it ... It is booked on the same day as the annual family Christmas get together, which my Dad, DH and I knew when I booked, ... I thought my sisters knew the date clash too and were ok with it.

Last week, both my sisters realised the family Christmas thing was the same day and suggested ... that we should go to that instead."

So you booked the lunch on the same day as the annual Christmas get together, fully knowing what you were doing and are then surprised it caused a conflict?  Of course it caused one.  The best way to avoid the drama would have been to have booked on a different day, or failing that to be flexible and suggest solutions.  Some solutions would be, more to a breakfast, move to lunch the day before, move to breakfast the day before, or cancel lunch and go to the big Christmas family event.

It is the height of disingenuous to play victim of the drama that you caused. You can try to justify, we had discussed a date before and all that, but if you didn't want to force the issue, you would have told them that the dates conflicted and were you still on for that since you were going to book the reservation.
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long) Updates 53, 62
Post by: ladyknight1 on December 13, 2013, 05:52:41 PM
The plans with their family pre-existed the large gathering.

I think you were harsh to the OP.
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long) Updates 53, 62
Post by: Deetee on December 13, 2013, 08:28:53 PM
The plans with their family pre-existed the large gathering.

I think you were harsh to the OP.

Nope, the date of the lunch was set knowing that it conflicted with the large gathering. (The idea for a lunch posted the large gathering)
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long) Updates 53, 62
Post by: Katana_Geldar on December 14, 2013, 04:31:51 AM
No, it did not. The date for the lunch was decided before the family gathering even came up. When it did we just decided to go ahead with our original plan.
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long) Updates 53, 62
Post by: Oh Joy on December 14, 2013, 08:32:23 AM
No, it did not. The date for the lunch was decided before the family gathering even came up. When it did we just decided to go ahead with our original plan.

I ask this in the most open way: who was the 'we' who decided, and what was the expectation for anyone not involved in the decision who felt otherwise?
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long) Updates 53, 62
Post by: JoyinVirginia on December 14, 2013, 09:58:47 AM
There is another part of this, if I an reading correctly. Op and her dh want small gathering with op father and her sisters. Small gathering planned. Then larger gathering with extended family planned. Sisters say they will go to large gathering and expect to see op and her dh there. Sisters are not interested in rescheduling small gathering.
So only time op sisters are interested in seeing her is at large gathering with lots of family. So that is what is hurtful. Sisters are not interested in spending any time just with op and her dh.
It's like sisters saying, we have list of people to see, that includes op, if we go to one big gathering we can check off entire list and not make effort to see op individually.
I can understand why that would hurt feelings. Esp based on history that op alludes to.
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long) Updates 53, 62
Post by: Deetee on December 14, 2013, 10:25:30 AM
No, it did not. The date for the lunch was decided before the family gathering even came up. When it did we just decided to go ahead with our original plan.

This is the part from the original post that led to me to believe that that the the date of the lunch was set knowing that it conflicted with the large gathering. (The idea for a lunch predated the large gathering)

Quote
It is booked on the same day as the annual family Christmas get together, which my Dad, DH and I knew when I booked, but we had decided then that we'd rather have lunch in a nice restaurant anyway.
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long) Updates 53, 62
Post by: citadelle on December 14, 2013, 01:24:29 PM
There is another part of this, if I an reading correctly. Op and her dh want small gathering with op father and her sisters. Small gathering planned. Then larger gathering with extended family planned. Sisters say they will go to large gathering and expect to see op and her dh there. Sisters are not interested in rescheduling small gathering.
So only time op sisters are interested in seeing her is at large gathering with lots of family. So that is what is hurtful. Sisters are not interested in spending any time just with op and her dh.
It's like sisters saying, we have list of people to see, that includes op, if we go to one big gathering we can check off entire list and not make effort to see op individually.
I can understand why that would hurt feelings. Esp based on history that op alludes to.

The way I read the update is that sisters are trying to reschedule the smaller gathering. So, it seems that they do want to see OP individually. Unless I am confused! It happens!  ;D
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long) Updates 53, 62
Post by: Tea Drinker on December 14, 2013, 01:34:33 PM
No, it did not. The date for the lunch was decided before the family gathering even came up. When it did we just decided to go ahead with our original plan.

This is the part from the original post that led to me to believe that that the the date of the lunch was set knowing that it conflicted with the large gathering. (The idea for a lunch predated the large gathering)

Quote
It is booked on the same day as the annual family Christmas get together, which my Dad, DH and I knew when I booked, but we had decided then that we'd rather have lunch in a nice restaurant anyway.

I read that sequence as:

First, Katana_Geldar and her husband and father set a date for a cozy lunch together.

Second, someone else (not consulting her) decided to hold the family gathering on the same date.

Third, Katana_Geldar et al. made reservations at a specific restaurant for lunch that day, keeping it on the same date they had already chosen, rather than rescheduling.

If I read this right, I think it falls under not being expected to reschedule an existing plan. "Let's have lunch together on the 22nd" is a plan even if it doesn't specify "we will meet at 12:15 at House of Wonderful Food" rather than at noon or 1 at Best Chinese or Famous Italian.
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long) Updates 53, 62
Post by: gramma dishes on December 14, 2013, 01:35:52 PM
It sounded to me like Dad wasn't particularly interested in attending the huge family gathering himself, much preferring the smaller lunch with his daughters.

If I didn't read or understand that incorrectly, I'd just go ahead with our lunch plans and let the sisters decide which they'd rather participate in, or maybe they could figure out a way to do both.  But I'd say "This is what we're going to do" and then let them decide for themselves what they're going to do.
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long) Updates 53, 62
Post by: Katana_Geldar on December 14, 2013, 01:56:31 PM
This was the entire group, myself, DH, my dad and my sisters. We decided to go to lunch on that day. Then my Dad told me (I thought all of us) about the family event, me, DH and my Dad had already decided we weren't going. Then I booked, as no one else had, then my sisters wanted to cancel the whole thing.

People are acting as if the family thing is mandatory to go to: it's not. My Dad doesn't expect us to go to these things all the time, particularly when in the past most of his family didn't make any effort to see us. My sisters know this. And what no one realises, except my Dad, how terribly inconvenient it is for DH and myself to get over there. It's a three hour journey by public transport each way as we don't have a car. We have made that journey twice together, once for family Christmas two years ago and once for my cousins 21st, but it really is a drag to get there if we wanted to go.

And they weren't interested in trying to reschedule, at least not at first, they just wanted us to go to the family event instead which the rest of us had decided we weren't going to.
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long) Updates 53, 62
Post by: citadelle on December 14, 2013, 02:10:35 PM
This was the entire group, myself, DH, my dad and my sisters. We decided to go to lunch on that day. Then my Dad told me (I thought all of us) about the family event, me, DH and my Dad had already decided we weren't going. Then I booked, as no one else had, then my sisters wanted to cancel the whole thing.

People are acting as if the family thing is mandatory to go to: it's not. My Dad doesn't expect us to go to these things all the time, particularly when in the past most of his family didn't make any effort to see us. My sisters know this. And what no one realises, except my Dad, how terribly inconvenient it is for DH and myself to get over there. It's a three hour journey by public transport each way as we don't have a car. We have made that journey twice together, once for family Christmas two years ago and once for my cousins 21st, but it really is a drag to get there if we wanted to go.

And they weren't interested in trying to reschedule, at least not at first, they just wanted us to go to the family event instead which the rest of us had decided we weren't going to.

Just to be clear, though: they do want to reschedule now, according to your previous update?
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long) Updates 53, 62
Post by: Katana_Geldar on December 14, 2013, 02:13:33 PM
No, they don't. They want to see me while they are in town. It's slightly different.

I'm still not sure if I want to see them or even if I can make it work if I do.
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long) Updates 53, 62
Post by: JoyinVirginia on December 14, 2013, 03:19:10 PM
A three hour trip each way during the holidays, while you are pregnant and easily tired, to see extended family, that has never gone out of their way to see you? 
it seems obvious that you would not be interested in traveling.
Perhaps your father can point out the difficulty of getting to larger gathering to your sisters.
Just relax and do something you enjoy, and send your sisters a card.
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long) Updates 53, 62
Post by: LifeOnPluto on December 15, 2013, 08:31:57 PM
No, they don't. They want to see me while they are in town. It's slightly different.

I'm still not sure if I want to see them or even if I can make it work if I do.

It sounds like your sisters do want to see you, but they expect you to make all the effort. Is that right?

If so, I'd be annoyed at such a one-sided arrangement. Given your current condition, I think you're fine in not attending the big family party (or making any other extra-special effort).

I guess you could try putting the ball in their court. Tell them "I'll be at home all day on
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long) Updates 53, 62
Post by: TootsNYC on December 15, 2013, 09:31:34 PM
Then again, if my siblings are in town and I'm local, I would expect to be the one who bent a little bit to make it happen. Within reason, of course. But I figure, my siblings have to travel a long way to get to the area, which takes a lot of time and money; I can inconvenience myself a little bit, give up something I kinda wanted to do, in order to see them.

And to me it doesn't matter in the least who moved away. It matters who traveled this weekend.
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long) Updates 53, 62
Post by: *inviteseller on December 15, 2013, 11:22:46 PM
TBH..it doesn't sound like OP wants to see her sisters anyways as she doesn't have a good relationship with them, but I would not have scheduled the planned family lunch on that date once I found out it conflicted with the big family gathering unless I knew everyone for the lunch was uninterested in the big family thing.  It is completely understandable why OP doesn't want to go due to the travel and she is also not close with these people, but some consideration should have been taken for the sisters as they are only in for a small time and want to see everyone.  I personally think everyone is making this harder than it has to be and I am not sensing there has been open communication between OP and her sisters,  All this drama could have been avoided if OP (or her dad) had asked the sisters ahead of time if they minded that they wanted to schedule their event the same day so sisters could say "well, we understand that the traveling is difficult for you but we do want to go, can we try x date at this time for our gathering?" but due to dysfunction it is now a big drama fest with poor dad caught in the middle.  Someone here needs to step up and be the cooler head and make this work, or just give it up and seethe because sisters want to do the family thing.  Yes, OP, your DH is your family now, but your dad and sisters are more than just relatives and a possible olive branch being extended may make everyones life easier, and if they refuse it, at least you know you tried.
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long) Updates 53, 62
Post by: Roe on December 16, 2013, 07:35:53 AM
TBH..it doesn't sound like OP wants to see her sisters anyways as she doesn't have a good relationship with them, but I would not have scheduled the planned family lunch on that date once I found out it conflicted with the big family gathering unless I knew everyone for the lunch was uninterested in the big family thing.  It is completely understandable why OP doesn't want to go due to the travel and she is also not close with these people, but some consideration should have been taken for the sisters as they are only in for a small time and want to see everyone.  I personally think everyone is making this harder than it has to be and I am not sensing there has been open communication between OP and her sisters,  All this drama could have been avoided if OP (or her dad) had asked the sisters ahead of time if they minded that they wanted to schedule their event the same day so sisters could say "well, we understand that the traveling is difficult for you but we do want to go, can we try x date at this time for our gathering?" but due to dysfunction it is now a big drama fest with poor dad caught in the middle.  Someone here needs to step up and be the cooler head and make this work, or just give it up and seethe because sisters want to do the family thing.  Yes, OP, your DH is your family now, but your dad and sisters are more than just relatives and a possible olive branch being extended may make everyones life easier, and if they refuse it, at least you know you tried.

Yep.  It also sounds as if OP and her sisters are digging in their heels and not wanting to compromise.
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long) Updates 53, 62
Post by: Minmom3 on December 16, 2013, 09:49:46 AM
There were family repercussions for a few years when I missed a wedding because I was 8 months along, and the Dr had said to not travel more than an hour from home, and the wedding was a full day's drive away.  I was 8 months along, I was feeling huge and ungainly (although not sick) and I didn't WANT to travel hours and hours.  I think I called the bride and told her I was really sorry, but I can't make your wedding, and told her why.  Her sister was offended, but the bride was not, because she understood.

All family drama aside, it's not fun to travel when you're 8 months along.  It's hard to get IN a car, it's ungainly to walk, the body is not very comfortable, (I never had to navigate a bus while pregnant, and doubt I would have loved the experience) and you can't do much for very long.  I think the OP deserves the benefit of the doubt here in not being willing to do all the travel to see her sisters.  I think if I were in her shoes, I'd do much the same - I'd hunker down and not move.  I'd say sorry, but I'm not doing that, and I'd mean it very sincerely.  The list of things I was willing and able to do when near the end of a pregnancy wasn't super long, and travel was not on it, nor was going out of my way to accommodate non-pregnant people who didn't go out of their way for me at other times...
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long) Updates 53, 62
Post by: TootsNYC on December 16, 2013, 10:11:24 AM
I don't think anyone has said she should travel.

I think I'm starting to feel that the biggest problem is not the logistics, but the resentment. Oh, well, it may not work out this year. Don't make it into something bigger.
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long) Updates 53, 62
Post by: Katana_Geldar on December 16, 2013, 02:11:55 PM
Roe, the difference is in previous years I've been the one "compromising" with everything. As in I've been giving in to them. This is something they're used to, when I spoke to youngest sister she said "Surely we'd be better to go to family gathering instead." as if she was assuming I was going to fold.

There's also the fact they don't quite get where we live, and how tricky it is to get to via public transport. Particularly from my Dads place where they are staying. Have I mentioned that my uncles place, where the family gathering is, is a walkable distance from my Dads?

They suggested visiting that night, but my Dad and I know this is just not going to happen. After the family gathering, taking a 2-3 hour journey via public transport (in the evening on a weekend nonetheless when options are limited) is just not going to happen. I know after a big family event, the last thing I'd want to do would be to make a long journey to and from somewhere, even if I wasn't pregnant. Putting aside the fact that DH would have a few choice words to say to my sisters if he saw either one in person.

So, the lunch is going to be on with just myself, DH and my Dad this Sunday. We're going, like we originally planned but I don't think DH is going to be amenable to any future gatherings with them and I can't say I blame him.
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long) Updates 53, 62
Post by: JoyinVirginia on December 16, 2013, 03:05:06 PM
Op, traveling when you are well along in pregnancy is not fun. Traveling with an infant can be challenging as well. So might as well get your sisters used to the fact that you will not be traveling long distances by public transportation for some time to come.

Personal disclosure that may be TMI:  when I wad pregnant, both times, I had morning noon and night nausea and occasionally vomiting. From early on until delivery. My doctor said it meant my hormone levels were really high and that was a good thing. Yea. No, I did not go anywhere that was too far away. Luckily I worked in an office that was very very close to the bathroom.
Sometimes when someone says they can't travel, there are really good reasons not to travel, that have nothing to do with the other people involved.
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long) Updates 53, 62
Post by: Lynn2000 on December 16, 2013, 03:43:05 PM
I think you've made a good decision, OP. Sometimes, you do have to do what works best for you, even if other people don't find it as convenient. I think the thing is to really own that decision and be comfortable with it. Your sisters aren't going to magically change their point of view, especially with the history of you doing whatever they want. Of course they would prefer that continue, it's all to their advantage.

So I think you just have to get used to saying, "This is what we're doing, you are free to join us if you want," and then drop the rope--if you can't compromise or the compromises they suggest don't work for you, "that won't be possible" and you just go on with your life. Not all sisters really have anything in common or are friends once they grow up, and wishing they were different sorts of people is just an exercise in futility.

I hate to seem harsh, though. Probably in your shoes I would make them other offers for later, like hosting them at my house in early spring or buying them a meal at a restaurant which is partway between our locations. Depends on the situation, of course. Or go out of my way to set up appointments to Skype with them, especially after the baby is born. Basically I would try to show that I want to keep up with them, but no, I'm not just going to do it in whatever way they want, I will give a little but they have to give a little, too. And if they don't care to continue the relationship if they don't get their own way completely, well, then you know where you stand.  :-\
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long) Updates 53, 62
Post by: LifeOnPluto on December 16, 2013, 08:25:52 PM
Roe, the difference is in previous years I've been the one "compromising" with everything. As in I've been giving in to them. This is something they're used to, when I spoke to youngest sister she said "Surely we'd be better to go to family gathering instead." as if she was assuming I was going to fold.

There's also the fact they don't quite get where we live, and how tricky it is to get to via public transport. Particularly from my Dads place where they are staying. Have I mentioned that my uncles place, where the family gathering is, is a walkable distance from my Dads?

They suggested visiting that night, but my Dad and I know this is just not going to happen. After the family gathering, taking a 2-3 hour journey via public transport (in the evening on a weekend nonetheless when options are limited) is just not going to happen. I know after a big family event, the last thing I'd want to do would be to make a long journey to and from somewhere, even if I wasn't pregnant. Putting aside the fact that DH would have a few choice words to say to my sisters if he saw either one in person.

So, the lunch is going to be on with just myself, DH and my Dad this Sunday. We're going, like we originally planned but I don't think DH is going to be amenable to any future gatherings with them and I can't say I blame him.

If the family gathering is so close to your dad's house, why don't you just swing by for a while after your lunch?

Or is your dad travelling out your way for the lunch?
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long) Updates 53, 62
Post by: Katana_Geldar on December 16, 2013, 09:29:20 PM
Because we're having lunch in the city, which is convenient for everyone.
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long) Updates 53, 62
Post by: DavidH on December 17, 2013, 11:13:46 AM
I suppose I don't understand the issue.  There are only a couple of options and all most have been ruled out for one reason or another.

It seems the solution is for you, DH and your father to  have lunch, and then you go home and you father does whatever he wants to do.  Don't see your sisters, since both you and DH don't want to and that's that. I don't see any dilemma here.
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long) Updates 53, 62
Post by: Aluminum on December 18, 2013, 02:48:29 AM
Because we're having lunch in the city, which is convenient for everyone.


Except for your sisters, who would like to go to the family get-together while they're in town.  So it's convenient for you.


You're fine, with regards to etiquette; you don't really want to see your sisters, you're irritated by their habits--that honestly is a completely valid response and reason to decide not to see them. My recommendation is to simply own it. Stop trying to cast your sisters as the Villains Who Won't Bend; IMO it doesn't play well.  Just decide that this year, you shan't see them, and go have a cup of tea to celebrate your decision.
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long) Updates 53, 62
Post by: LifeOnPluto on December 18, 2013, 04:21:21 AM
Because we're having lunch in the city, which is convenient for everyone.


Except for your sisters, who would like to go to the family get-together while they're in town.  So it's convenient for you.


You're fine, with regards to etiquette; you don't really want to see your sisters, you're irritated by their habits--that honestly is a completely valid response and reason to decide not to see them. My recommendation is to simply own it. Stop trying to cast your sisters as the Villains Who Won't Bend; IMO it doesn't play well.  Just decide that this year, you shan't see them, and go have a cup of tea to celebrate your decision.

I agree. Yes, it would be nice to see your sisters (and better still if they made a special effort to work around your schedule, rather than convince you to work around their own). But it's not the end of the world if you don't see them for this Christmas period. There's always next year.
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long) Updates 53, 62
Post by: Deetee on December 18, 2013, 10:11:35 PM
Because we're having lunch in the city, which is convenient for everyone.


Except for your sisters, who would like to go to the family get-together while they're in town.  So it's convenient for you.


You're fine, with regards to etiquette; you don't really want to see your sisters, you're irritated by their habits--that honestly is a completely valid response and reason to decide not to see them. My recommendation is to simply own it. Stop trying to cast your sisters as the Villains Who Won't Bend; IMO it doesn't play well.  Just decide that this year, you shan't see them, and go have a cup of tea to celebrate your decision.

I completely agree with this. Both that the OP made a decision that was convenient for her and her DH without regards to her sisters. And, second,  that there is nothing wrong with living the way you prefer. You don't need to pretend that you want to see people who make your life difficult and are unpleasant. But just own that that decision and avoid all the weird passive-aggressive "I just booked this meal directly on top of the only other big event and no-one should be upset about it"
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long) Updates 53, 62
Post by: Katana_Geldar on January 03, 2014, 04:22:56 PM
So, now Christmas is over I'll give the final update...

Lunch was good, was a very hot day and restaurant was so cool and breezy that we stayed there about four hours. We did talk about what had happened, and my Dad did try and defend some of what they did and make excuses...which wasn't great but he does respect my and DH's right not to listen to them.

I also got a few texts from younger sister that I thought was best not to respond to. She still thinks that by apologising things can go back to what they were. I had accepted her apologies previously, but I'm not getting pulled into her dramas again. I spoke to her at Christmas, something I was a bit hesitant about but it went well, we were both polite and cordial but not close. It was awkward, but could have been worse. I talked a bit more to youngest sister, bust she was more interested in talking to me.

And yesterday we met youngest sister and my Dad for lunch near our place and that went rather well. Youngest sister and I talked about the whole thing but she says she doesn't want to get involved or take sides, which I really appreciated and told her so. I did mention how I felt about them going to see extended family rather than me, but she said she had always intended to see me anyway while she was there.

I do have a few regrets with younger sister, but it's not something I can do anything about. I can't change her behaviour, but I do wish things were different. I've also found out a few things from my dad why my mum always saw treated me and my sisters differently that I don't want to go into.
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long) Updates 53, 62 Final 99
Post by: LifeOnPluto on January 03, 2014, 08:48:27 PM
Sounds like things went okay, all things considered. I'm glad your youngest sister was willing to make an effort to see you one-on-one (well, with your dad, anyway).
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long) Updates 53, 62
Post by: Aluminum on January 04, 2014, 03:01:15 AM
We did talk about what had happened, and my Dad did try and defend some of what they did and make excuses...which wasn't great but he does respect my and DH's right not to listen to them.
[snip]
I talked a bit more to youngest sister, bust she was more interested in talking to me.
[snip]
And yesterday we met youngest sister and my Dad for lunch near our place and that went rather well. Youngest sister and I talked about the whole thing but she says she doesn't want to get involved or take sides, which I really appreciated and told her so. I did mention how I felt about them going to see extended family rather than me...

OK, this update tells me that we simply were not given the full story upon initial telling.  Or at least I hope so.  Because based on your response here, I'd reckon you were the one who caused the drama, frankly.

You refused to see your sisters' point of view when your father felt strongly enough to try to enunciate it; you ignored texts that apparently were apologetic from another sister (which, IMO, considering you pulled a strop due to others not changing their schedules for you regardless of what their desires were, was actually quite generous on her part), and you seem to be disgruntled that yet another sister was more interested in actually talking to you than in rehashing some sort of odd sibling standoff. And even though your youngest sibling made it clear she didn't want to be dragged into your drama, you still managed to "mention" said drama and evoke a reaction from her, which rather ignores her earlier request. And I find it hypocritical, since you expect your father to "respect [you and your DH's] right not to listen to them [meaning, I assume, the sisters]".

I'm really, really hoping there was a LOT left out of this story.  Because (and if I am alone, please, folks, pile on to tell me so--I may have missed something huge here which would change my opinion!) otherwise, I would personally assume the one who is causing all of the tension and drama is the OP.
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long) Updates 53, 62 Final 99
Post by: Steve on January 04, 2014, 03:31:46 AM
Aluminum raises some interesting points, but I feel we are veering off etiquette and towards relational advice.
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long) Updates 53, 62 Final 99
Post by: aussie_chick on January 04, 2014, 04:27:28 AM
Agree it sounds like there is more to this story and also agree Aluminium raises some interesting points.
Glad it went reasonably well.
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long) Updates 53, 62
Post by: TinyVulgarUnicorn on January 04, 2014, 07:22:55 AM
So, now Christmas is over I'll give the final update...

I did mention how I felt about them going to see extended family rather than me

I really don't get this part right here.  From your posts you make it sound like you don't really like your sisters and that the main reason they were in town was to go to a family reunion.  They expressed to you that they would like to have lunch with you and told you that the one day wasn't going to be possible because of the reunion and when they tried to reschedule you refused due to a busy schedule...yet...you tell your sister that you're disappointed in her for going to see extended family rather than you?
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long) Updates 53, 62 Final 99
Post by: Katana_Geldar on January 04, 2014, 02:08:43 PM
Ok, some clarification points that I thought were settled up thread.

1) The lunch was always going to be on that day, this had been decided months before the family gathering had been scheduled. It couldn't be another day not due to my schedule, but theirs. They only arrived the day before and were leaving town that night.

2) I thought my Dad had informed my sisters about the family gathering and as I hadn't been informed otherwise, assumed it was still on and booked as no one seemed to be doing anything about it.

3) Then, when they were informed of the family gathering my sisters changed their minds and decided to go there instead, younger sister assuming that I'd just go along with these changes plans. That was what she ACTUALLY SAID "surely it's better if we just see each other at the family gathering anyway".

About my conversation with younger sister about this: it lasted about five minutes and it only came up because my Dad and DH were having a private chat on the way home from lunch the other day. Youngest sister asked what it was about and I said it was probably about younger sister. That conversation wasn't very long, and we then talked about other things. My guess did turn out to be wrong, but I only found out about this later. Youngest sister did agree that stirring up unnecessary drama was a waste of time and we had a good laugh.

About youngest sisters apology: she had apologised about what she had said about the baby, but completely refused to see where she had been wrong or any alternatives she could have taken other than what she did. The drama about the lunch (which she did start being unpleasant again) was the last straw for me as it was a stupid little thing that need not have gone that far.
She also expected me to "forgive and forget" what she had said about our baby which is something I've been unable to do (DH doesn't think he ever will and doesn't want to be in the same room with her), move on and have things back to normal. Any attempts to explain to her how she had hurt me (something she has not nor ever has apologised for) were immediately fobbed off with telling me not to bring up the past, something she had always a said when I had brought up past wrongs but she conveniently forgot about when she did the exact same thing.
It was then I took a serious look at the entire thing. My sister had caused unnecessary dramas about the two big events in my life so far, my wedding and the birth of my child and expected for me just to get over it. She also stirred up unnecessary drama about a little thing that could have easily been resolved. This was not a relationship I wanted my child exposed to, particularly with how she continually upset me. Telling her anything about it other than what I already have (directly and indirectly) would just draw me back in to the conflict.
So I decided to step back and not talk to her about it, it was all I could do since I knew there was no way I could talk to her sensibly. If she asked me what actually was wrong (which she hasn't, she just assumes I'm mad with her over the lunch) then I'd tell her that I'd had enough of how she treats me and stirs up conflict. But that probably won't happen as she thinks she is right.
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long) Updates 53, 62 Final 99
Post by: Katana_Geldar on January 06, 2014, 04:39:43 PM
Another update,when I didn't think there would be one. She called me last night, I didn't get there in time but after several messages she sent where she wanted to talk and was asking if I was still mad (which I'm not) I sent her a message back telling her the truth: that I wasn't mad at her and I didn't like how there was a drama between us every few months and wanted to avoid this with the baby coming.
I was very careful not to assign blame, she can decide for herself how much culpability is on each side. But the lines of communication have opened. I just have to keep reminding myself that things won't be the same between us ever again and can't be.

Update: we're talking again, I'm just being careful. She realised that we both want the same things and that I wasn't bearing a grudge.

So, this has been resolved in a way, but it has been a learning experience.
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long) Updates 53, 62 Final 99
Post by: TurtleDove on January 06, 2014, 05:57:40 PM
I read the entire thread and am exhausted and confused! OP, I hope your last post is accurate that you don't hold a grudge. Move on and forgive! Or don't. But don't expect your sisters to cater to you while you hold grudges!
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long) Updates 53, 62 Final 99
Post by: Katana_Geldar on January 06, 2014, 06:01:22 PM
I don't hold grudges, life is too short to hold them and I will (within reasonable grounds) give people the opportunity to redeem themselves. But I can't forget, I have a long memory of how people treat me.
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long) Updates 53, 62 Final 99
Post by: TurtleDove on January 06, 2014, 06:28:10 PM
I don't hold grudges, life is too short to hold them and I will (within reasonable grounds) give people the opportunity to redeem themselves. But I can't forget, I have a long memory of how people treat me.

Hmmmm. That, to me, is a grudge.
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long) Updates 53, 62 Final 99
Post by: VorFemme on January 06, 2014, 06:32:36 PM
I've been accused of holding grudges (actually, I think it was feeding them, caging them, training them, as well as a few other things) - but since the person making the accusation was a pot stirring Drama Chef (they'd cook something up if there wasn't enough drama in the situation) - I took it with a lot of salt.

I haven't heard from the Drama Chef in a long time, for some reason....

I'd ended up on bed rest while pregnant and decided to cut some stress out of my life....I went back to a different job after the baby was born...she's about to turn thirty in March.  It's been a while since I even thought about Drama Chef.
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long) Updates 53, 62 Final 99
Post by: Jones on January 06, 2014, 06:37:21 PM
I don't hold grudges, life is too short to hold them and I will (within reasonable grounds) give people the opportunity to redeem themselves. But I can't forget, I have a long memory of how people treat me.

Hmmmm. That, to me, is a grudge.

After reading recent posts in the "Why did you give someone the cut direct" thread, I must disagree. One can forgive, and move on, without forgetting or putting themselves back into a position to be hurt.
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long) Updates 53, 62 Final 99
Post by: Piratelvr1121 on January 06, 2014, 06:50:15 PM
I don't hold grudges, life is too short to hold them and I will (within reasonable grounds) give people the opportunity to redeem themselves. But I can't forget, I have a long memory of how people treat me.

Hmmmm. That, to me, is a grudge.

After reading recent posts in the "Why did you give someone the cut direct" thread, I must disagree. One can forgive, and move on, without forgetting or putting themselves back into a position to be hurt.

I was thinking of that too and must say I think I'd say a grudge is when you are holding on to the grievance along with the hurt and anger over it.  I wouldn't call it a grudge if one has forgiven the offense but not forgotten it.

As the saying goes "Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me." If you don't remember you're going to constantly be the fool, and how many of us have stated that we get tired of being an agony aunt to someone who refuses to take charge of their situation?
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long) Updates 53, 62 Final 99
Post by: bloo on January 06, 2014, 07:24:15 PM
I don't hold grudges, life is too short to hold them and I will (within reasonable grounds) give people the opportunity to redeem themselves. But I can't forget, I have a long memory of how people treat me.

Hmmmm. That, to me, is a grudge.

After reading recent posts in the "Why did you give someone the cut direct" thread, I must disagree. One can forgive, and move on, without forgetting or putting themselves back into a position to be hurt.

I was thinking of that too and must say I think I'd say a grudge is when you are holding on to the grievance along with the hurt and anger over it.  I wouldn't call it a grudge if one has forgiven the offense but not forgotten it.

As the saying goes "Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me." If you don't remember you're going to constantly be the fool, and how many of us have stated that we get tired of being an agony aunt to someone who refuses to take charge of their situation?

Exactly. If you're not nursing and tending the grievance and the feelings that go with it then it is not a grudge. Remembering that there were problems or issues may keep one from falling back into a negative pattern or not making the same mistakes with the same person.
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long) Updates 53, 62 Final 99
Post by: TurtleDove on January 06, 2014, 07:38:38 PM
For me, I either forgive and move forward, or I don't. If the OP is going to be continuously upset with her sisters, that's fine. But she can't expect them to not have a reaction to that. I absolutely believe in learning from what people show you of themselves. For me, I wouldn't pretend to someone that I forgave them if I wanted them in life. It sounds like the OP isn't past the situation and apparently never will be. Which, fine, but why would she expect her sisters to continue to try if she is making it clear there is no point?
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long) Updates 53, 62 Final 99
Post by: VorFemme on January 06, 2014, 08:06:07 PM
I've been known to say that I'd rather have a rabid skunk in the house than the person who claims that I have a grudge against them.

That would be because the rabid skunk would probably have better manners, everyone would understand if I insisted that it did leave, and if I had to shoot it - everyone would understand.  Although I do admit that it might take a while to clean up after shooting a rabid skunk in the house.

But the misbehaving person?  Would behave badly, refuse to leave, raise a big SOCIAL stink (no musk glands), and insist that I was the one in the wrong for asking them to leave (no matter the reason).  And shooting them would have caused all kinds of problems because only people who KNEW them knew that they only LOOKED like a reasonable human being...
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long) Updates 53, 62 Final 99
Post by: bloo on January 06, 2014, 08:51:41 PM
For me, I either forgive and move forward, or I don't. If the OP is going to be continuously upset with her sisters, that's fine. But she can't expect them to not have a reaction to that. I absolutely believe in learning from what people show you of themselves. For me, I wouldn't pretend to someone that I forgave them if I wanted them in life. It sounds like the OP isn't past the situation and apparently never will be. Which, fine, but why would she expect her sisters to continue to try if she is making it clear there is no point?

In a separate example (from the OP's situation), there are times where I wouldn't cut a person from my life or even reduce contact but the relationship would change. Off the top of my head, if a friend revealed something deeply personal, they may be sorry, I may be forgiving, but I might hold back temporarily or permanently from confiding in that friend. And if it was permanent it wouldn't be because I was punishing them, it would be acknowledging they aren't capable of keeping confidences so I wouldn't lead them in to temptation, so to speak.

In a situation with ongoing personality differences between family members that don't feel the need to cut each other from their lives, the relationships can evolve to more 'surface' or superficial types to keep peace. Or at least a cessation of hostilities.
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long) Updates 53, 62 Final 99
Post by: AmethystAnne on January 07, 2014, 09:47:20 PM
I don't hold grudges, life is too short to hold them and I will (within reasonable grounds) give people the opportunity to redeem themselves. But I can't forget, I have a long memory of how people treat me.

Hmmmm. That, to me, is a grudge.

I disagree with you TurtleDove. I would call it being cautious.
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long) Updates 53, 62 Final 99
Post by: JeanFromBNA on January 07, 2014, 10:05:47 PM
I don't hold grudges, life is too short to hold them and I will (within reasonable grounds) give people the opportunity to redeem themselves. But I can't forget, I have a long memory of how people treat me.

Hmmmm. That, to me, is a grudge.

I disagree with you TurtleDove. I would call it being cautious.
I agree with Anne.  It helps to remember which dogs may bite.
Title: Re: Just about had enough... (Long) Updates 53, 62 Final 99
Post by: buvezdevin on January 07, 2014, 11:57:36 PM
For me, I either forgive and move forward, or I don't. If the OP is going to be continuously upset with her sisters, that's fine. But she can't expect them to not have a reaction to that. I absolutely believe in learning from what people show you of themselves. For me, I wouldn't pretend to someone that I forgave them if I wanted them in life. It sounds like the OP isn't past the situation and apparently never will be. Which, fine, but why would she expect her sisters to continue to try if she is making it clear there is no point?

It would seem you missed the OP's statement that she is not mad, and assured her sister - who was asking - of the same.  I understood OP's further statements as lucid, considered recognition that now that communication with her sister(s) has been resumed, OP will be careful with such communications with the aim of avoiding or not engaging in further cycles of drama.  That may entail avoiding certain topics, or "dropping the rope" in some areas, or something else - but seems to reflects OP's desire to avoid further upset, not a determination to nurse a grievance.

After a heated discussion with a family member some years back regarding politics, in which I was upset by personal comments directed at me - I forgave, and also apologized for walking away abruptly mid-conversation - and I have studiously avoided political discussion with that family member since.  That does not mean I haven't moved on, or remain upset - I love her dearly and she is a wonderful woman who has some strongly held political views which I do not share, which she feels as a personal rejection of her values, most of which I do share.  I very much want her in my life, though I do not want to discuss politics in her presence.