Etiquette Hell

General Etiquette => Family and Children => Topic started by: weeblewobble on February 04, 2014, 08:03:42 AM

Title: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: weeblewobble on February 04, 2014, 08:03:42 AM
This is regarding today's first letter:

http://www.uexpress.com/dearabby/?uc_full_date=20140204

Basically, a man has started two clubs within a 55+ retirement community, one that meets regularly for breakfast and one that meets twice monthly in the evenings at the members' homes.  The clubs are "men only" with the organizer declaring "no skirts allowed." Meaning that the lady of the house is expected to prepare snacks and clean the house, then vacate as soon as the meeting starts.

The LW says the organizer has "bamboozled" the members and practices a lot of control over them. ETA: Anything said in the meetings is "confidential," he tells them. When someone suggested meeting in a coffee shop for the evening meetings, to prevent ousting a wife from her home in the evenings, the organizer objected that meeting at home provided a more "intimate" setting.  The LW's husband enjoys the group, but feels bad for the way the wives are treated.

Abby suggested that the wives stop preparing food/cleaning for meetings where they are not welcome, which I DEFINITELY agree with.  If these guys are adult enough to host in their homes, they're adult enough to prepare for it.  The other suggestion was that the LW's husband just join the group breakfasts, since that made him less uncomfortable.

I thought this made an interesting counterpoint to the ladies Bunco discussion the other night, in that the organizer of the club is demanding that the wives leave the house, rather than just avoid interaction with the club while home. 

Also, I would wonder what sort of club activities require my husband to be alone in a house with a bunch of other men that requires an "intimate setting" and "confidentiality" warnings.  (Frankly I would be more worried about this self-styled Sven Gali trying to set vulnerable seniors up for bad investments than anything Scrabble-related.  But that would be on my list, too.)
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: Hmmmmm on February 04, 2014, 08:13:08 AM
This is a relationship decision amongst each couple. These are adults. The organizer can't bamboozle the men if they aren't wanting to participate. The organizer can't insist the wives prepare for the event. If the men are uncomfortable with asking their wives to leave the home for a couple if evenings a month or the wife doesn't want to, they shouldn't have joined the group. I personally think the husband in this story is blaming the organizer.

It wouldn't occur to me the guy is trying to swindle or encourage bad behavior.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: lowspark on February 04, 2014, 08:14:43 AM
Since I was the one who started the Bunco thread I feel compelled to voice my opinion. I think the difference here is that the husbands are making two demands, neither of which I find reasonable.
1. Wife has to prepare snacks and clean the house.
2. She has to leave the house as opposed to just going into another room to let them have their privacy.

As far as #1 goes, though, how does the club organizer dictate this? I mean, isn't that just between the husband and wife in each case? If hubby asks wife to prepare snacks, then she can do it or just say no. Surely Mr. Club Organizer isn't coming into each house and holding a gun to these wives' heads while demanding they do his bidding.

Of course, #2 does hit closer to home regarding the issue at Bunco. I don't see anything wrong at all with the husbands saying, we want to have our meeting with no wives around but demanding she leave the house as opposed to just going into another room if that's what she wants to do is where this ventures into the realm of unreasonable.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: meronym on February 04, 2014, 08:35:53 AM
While I would not make snacks and leave, this is a older generation where that might be more common. However, that comes down to each couple's relationship. The wives have a say and apparently they've agreed to this system. So basically, if it works for them, it's no one else's business.

I also don't think there's anything wrong with asking the wife. However I think making her vacate the premises is a bit much. But again, if it works for them, it's no one else's business.

Finally, to me, "bamboozle" means to trick/swindle someone. I can't see how the organizer is tricking anyone. I think he's been refreshingly upfront about his strange demands. If the organizer and others like this system, it's a little rude for the LW's husband to try and change it.  If he doesn't like it, he's free to quit the club and just maintain the friendships on his own. If the LW doesn't like make meals and getting kicked out, she can simply refuse. Problem solved.

All that said, I think this all sounds a little immature. Like a Backyard Clubhouse for Seniors - no girls allowed and everything's super secret.  ::)
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: BatCity on February 04, 2014, 08:52:51 AM
I have to wonder if the LW just doesn't like the organizer, because I just can't see what the problem is with having a men's only club. When my neighborhood started a women's only Bunco group years ago, the men had to take the kids and get out of the house. The men responded by starting a monthly poker night and joined each other for Monday Night Football. This was 15 years ago and we've since moved to another state, and we remain close friends with these people today. *

The fact that the organizer sounds like a jerk is beside the point. Maybe his wife likes to prepare snacks and make sure the house is tidy because it makes her feel useful. Other wives don't. Maybe he is a chauvinist, but that doesn't mean that guys wanting to have some "guy time" are as well.

* on the topic of preparing snacks! I do remember one of the Bunco/Poker wives complaining that she had to clean and cook for her husband's party. We laughed and told her to make him do it himself. I think my husband a a few other guys ended up setting him straight.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: lowspark on February 04, 2014, 09:02:26 AM
While I would not make snacks and leave, this is a older generation where that might be more common. However, that comes down to each couple's relationship. The wives have a say and apparently they've agreed to this system. So basically, if it works for them, it's no one else's business.

I also don't think there's anything wrong with asking the wife. However I think making her vacate the premises is a bit much. But again, if it works for them, it's no one else's business.

Finally, to me, "bamboozle" means to trick/swindle someone. I can't see how the organizer is tricking anyone. I think he's been refreshingly upfront about his strange demands. If the organizer and others like this system, it's a little rude for the LW's husband to try and change it.  If he doesn't like it, he's free to quit the club and just maintain the friendships on his own. If the LW doesn't like make meals and getting kicked out, she can simply refuse. Problem solved.

All that said, I think this all sounds a little immature. Like a Backyard Clubhouse for Seniors - no girls allowed and everything's super secret.  ::)

The two lines I bolded are excellent points. If the couples who are involved in this are ok with it, then there really isn't anything wrong with it. It would bug the heck out of me for my husband to say, "fix us food and leave" but then again, we aren't members of this group.

And yes, the exact point of my original Bunco thread was, "These are the rules. You need to abide by them. If you don't like them or can't follow them, then relinquish your membership."

So if the husband and his wife in the letter don't like how this club is organized, then they need to bow out, not attempt to change the club. If enough of the members quit, there won't be a club anymore. If the husband wants to start his own club with different rules, he certainly can do so.

Of course, if the wives want to take Abby's advice and just go out for their own girls' night out when the guys are meeting that's fine too. But the husband needs to either drop out or abide by the rules.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: lady_disdain on February 04, 2014, 09:08:15 AM
Ok, I disliked the organizer just from the description! Calling women "skirts" (or do I get to stay since I only wear pants?) and his assumption that all households are run 50s style (women do the all the housework) are setting my eyes rolling. He does seem to exert a lot of control over the group but the letter writer seems to be quite biased.

I have no problem at all with men's groups or women's groups with expectations that they can meet comfortably in each other houses and that the partners will not participate (expecting them to leave the house is too much for me but that they will leave the group alone). I would have no problem in preparing food and leaving my fiance and his friends on their own. And, yes, I would fix food because I am a lot better at it than he is. If the situation was reversed, he would have no problem moving the heavy table to the center of the room so my friends and I could play bunco (or whatever), since he is stronger than I am.

Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: siamesecat2965 on February 04, 2014, 09:44:11 AM
Hmmm. Here's my take on it, being unmarried, so not an issue for me. My parents moved from NJ to VA about 8 years ago, and immediately joined a number of social groups. Together, and men's only and ladie's only. Many of the co-ed groups met in people's homes, on a rotating basis, and my parent's split the responsibilty of "prepping" the house, food etc.

As for the single-sex social groups, sometimes they met elsewhere, as in they both belonged to a ladies/men's lunch out group, meeting at a different restaurant each time. But each also belonged to a book group, which met in someone's home. At least with my parents, they'd jointly get the house ready, and the other was welcome to be in the home, partake in snacks, say hello and schmooze a bit, but then would retire elsewhere and let the group do their thing. Having met many of the members of all their groups, I don't think any of them would have done what the LW's group did. Sure, maybe some of the spouses left the house during the group meeting, but on their own, not beacuse they were told to get out.

As far as the LW,  Ithink it depends on how the rest feel; if they don't like the way things are run, they're free to leave, or if he's the only one, then he can leave.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: AmethystAnne on February 04, 2014, 10:32:26 AM
I'd be interested in knowing the age of the organizer of these men-only groups.

My DH is 66, and would never call women 'skirts'.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: shhh its me on February 04, 2014, 10:40:55 AM
  I think Dear Abby's answer was spot on.

I wouldn't be concerned about something nefarious.  He's an elderly man too and investment scams are targeting at both sexes. If there's a group of men going and none are telling their wives of 20 ,30 or 40 years what being said and still going I'd concluded its just private and fun to have a "secret lodge".  Separating men from their wives for a few hours a month doesn't make them extra susceptible to pressure to make investments or  to cheat.   

It's a couples issue. 
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: doodlemor on February 04, 2014, 12:02:07 PM
  I think Dear Abby's answer was spot on.   

Me too. 


.......... I think this all sounds a little immature. Like a Backyard Clubhouse for Seniors - no girls allowed and everything's super secret.  ::)

I think that is an apt observation.  Too bad these guys are no longer agile enough to climb a tree and build a treehouse. 

It bothers me that this man has decreed that the meetings will be in other men's homes, and that the wives must leave after performing their menial duties.  That seems very entitled to me, and the word "bully" keeps coming to my mind, also.  If he wants to have his secret club with stringent rules, perhaps he should be the primary host.

If I were the letter writer I'd be chatting about this with the other wives.  I like the idea of the wives going to clubs while the husbands are having their meetings.  They also should plan some activities that their husbands will be sorry that they have missed.

It may be that if the letter writer's husband stands up to this boor, and only goes to the breakfast club, that some others may stand up to him also.  If the wives find the man very objectionable, I don't think that there is any reason why they have to invite him to parties that they throw in their homes.  That would be logical consequences of the boor's behavior.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: Amanita on February 04, 2014, 02:47:14 PM
Count me in as another who disliked the event organizer from the get-go. None of my elderly grandfathers would have been caught dead referring to women as "Skirts". And insisting that it will be the women who prepare for the event, and then be banished from their own homes? Aww E-Hell no!
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: lollylegs on February 04, 2014, 03:00:03 PM
As a feminist I had a pretty powerful knee jerk reaction. The organiser sounds absolutely awful and I would be furious if my partner told me to clean the house and make snacks for his friends then get out. However, I do agree with everyone else. The husband shouldn't be considering quitting - he should have quit the moment he heard the sexist and unreasonable rules.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: Hmmmmm on February 04, 2014, 03:07:19 PM
Count me in as another who disliked the event organizer from the get-go. None of my elderly grandfathers would have been caught dead referring to women as "Skirts". And insisting that it will be the women who prepare for the event, and then be banished from their own homes? Aww E-Hell no!

The bolded is the reason why I think the letter writer is openly biased about the organizer. The organizer can't insist the wives prepare anything. Their husband's might ask them to or the husband's might be assuming the wives will do it. But the organizer has no standing in the home.

The use of the word skirts I found funny. Sort of like saying "No Chicks Allowed" or for a women's party "No Dude's allowed". I don't find the world anymore chauvinistic than I would hearing someone use an old fashioned term like Dames. Neither are PC in today's world but lot's of humor isn't PC.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: TootsNYC on February 04, 2014, 03:13:38 PM
For all we know, the organizer is not the one who said, "The wives have to clean and cook." I think that's on the letter writer.

I kinda bet that the organizer never said anything about who cleaned--why would it occur to him? I'd think he'd assume that the house would just, oh, be clean. So he wouldn't even address it! And why would he said, "the wives have to make the snacks"?

I think the letter writer is assuming that the prep work is always being done by the women; not thta the orgnaizer explicitly stated that this is a requirement.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: shhh its me on February 04, 2014, 03:39:42 PM
Count me in as another who disliked the event organizer from the get-go. None of my elderly grandfathers would have been caught dead referring to women as "Skirts". And insisting that it will be the women who prepare for the event, and then be banished from their own homes? Aww E-Hell no!

The bolded is the reason why I think the letter writer is openly biased about the organizer. The organizer can't insist the wives prepare anything. Their husband's might ask them to or the husband's might be assuming the wives will do it. But the organizer has no standing in the home.

The use of the word skirts I found funny. Sort of like saying "No Chicks Allowed" or for a women's party "No Dude's allowed". I don't find the world anymore chauvinistic than I would hearing someone use an old fashioned term like Dames. Neither are PC in today's world but lot's of humor isn't PC.

I'd like its unlikely all these husbands and wives meekly complied with an order that "the wives will clean and make us snacks and then get out."

The group organizer has the right to say "men only " , "each person hosts in their homes " ect and the member have the right to say "no way." or to leave the group.

"no skirts" sounds like something a 50s movie character would say , I could be wrong but does anyone know anyone who has said "skirts" referring to woman seriously ?   I've seen people jokily talk like someone out of a 40s detective movie... "See , Dames , Gams " ect.   
 
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: lollylegs on February 04, 2014, 03:53:23 PM
Count me in as another who disliked the event organizer from the get-go. None of my elderly grandfathers would have been caught dead referring to women as "Skirts". And insisting that it will be the women who prepare for the event, and then be banished from their own homes? Aww E-Hell no!

The bolded is the reason why I think the letter writer is openly biased about the organizer. The organizer can't insist the wives prepare anything. Their husband's might ask them to or the husband's might be assuming the wives will do it. But the organizer has no standing in the home.

The use of the word skirts I found funny. Sort of like saying "No Chicks Allowed" or for a women's party "No Dude's allowed". I don't find the world anymore chauvinistic than I would hearing someone use an old fashioned term like Dames. Neither are PC in today's world but lot's of humor isn't PC.

I'd like its unlikely all these husbands and wives meekly complied with an order that "the wives will clean and make us snacks and then get out."

The group organizer has the right to say "men only " , "each person hosts in their homes " ect and the member have the right to say "no way." or to leave the group.

"no skirts" sounds like something a 50s movie character would say , I could be wrong but does anyone know anyone who has said "skirts" referring to woman seriously ?   I've seen people jokily talk like someone out of a 40s detective movie... "See , Dames , Gams " ect.

I don't necessarily think that he said, "Rule One - no skirts! Rule Two - wives must clean before we arrive. There will be a white glove inspection and if we find out that the husband did the cleaning, he's out of the club!" I imagine it's more of a gentleman of a certain age/generation making assumptions about the distribution of labour, e.g. "Now fellas, there's no women allowed, so once they've finished the cleaning they can trot off to their knitting circle or whatever."

In other words, he's decreed that the host must clean and provide snacks, and has assumed that the women will naturally do it.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: TootsNYC on February 04, 2014, 03:59:21 PM
If you look at how the original letter is worded, it's also likely that the *letter writer*, being a "woman of a certain age," is assuming that "therefore" (her very word) the wives are the ones doing the cleaning/cooking.

Quote
He made a rule that women are not allowed in their own homes when their husbands host a meeting -- "no skirts allowed." Therefore, even though the wife prepares everything for her husband's meeting, she's told to slip out of the house before anyone arrives.

"His" rule is only that women are not allowed in their own homes. She is the one who is making the conclusion that the wife has prepared everything.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: Vall on February 04, 2014, 04:12:42 PM
If you look at how the original letter is worded, it's also likely that the *letter writer*, being a "woman of a certain age," is assuming that "therefore" (her very word) the wives are the ones doing the cleaning/cooking.

Quote
He made a rule that women are not allowed in their own homes when their husbands host a meeting -- "no skirts allowed." Therefore, even though the wife prepares everything for her husband's meeting, she's told to slip out of the house before anyone arrives.

"His" rule is only that women are not allowed in their own homes. She is the one who is making the conclusion that the wife has prepared everything.
I'd have to agree with this.  The letter writer seems to be making assumptions.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: shhh its me on February 04, 2014, 04:22:21 PM
Count me in as another who disliked the event organizer from the get-go. None of my elderly grandfathers would have been caught dead referring to women as "Skirts". And insisting that it will be the women who prepare for the event, and then be banished from their own homes? Aww E-Hell no!

The bolded is the reason why I think the letter writer is openly biased about the organizer. The organizer can't insist the wives prepare anything. Their husband's might ask them to or the husband's might be assuming the wives will do it. But the organizer has no standing in the home.

The use of the word skirts I found funny. Sort of like saying "No Chicks Allowed" or for a women's party "No Dude's allowed". I don't find the world anymore chauvinistic than I would hearing someone use an old fashioned term like Dames. Neither are PC in today's world but lot's of humor isn't PC.

I'd like its unlikely all these husbands and wives meekly complied with an order that "the wives will clean and make us snacks and then get out."

The group organizer has the right to say "men only " , "each person hosts in their homes " ect and the member have the right to say "no way." or to leave the group.

"no skirts" sounds like something a 50s movie character would say , I could be wrong but does anyone know anyone who has said "skirts" referring to woman seriously ?   I've seen people jokily talk like someone out of a 40s detective movie... "See , Dames , Gams " ect.

I don't necessarily think that he said, "Rule One - no skirts! Rule Two - wives must clean before we arrive. There will be a white glove inspection and if we find out that the husband did the cleaning, he's out of the club!" I imagine it's more of a gentleman of a certain age/generation making assumptions about the distribution of labour, e.g. "Now fellas, there's no women allowed, so once they've finished the cleaning they can trot off to their knitting circle or whatever."

In other words, he's decreed that the host must clean and provide snacks, and has assumed that the women will naturally do it.

It may not be an incorrect assumption but let's remember  this is a 55+ community not a nursing home or even assisted living ...55 =20 in 1980 , 65 =20 in 1970 ie the kids in "that 70s show" not the parents.

I brought up the use of the words skirts because the LW used it as a quote.  In all honest if someone seriously refereed to me as a skirt and my husband wanted to go to their meeting I'd be furious. I would take it like "he mans woman haters club" or "ball and chain"

I'm honestly asking if "Skirts" was ever used seriously  I've hear people say "broads" seriously.  IF skirts was ever used seriously I would expect the user to be about 120+.   The word choice effects how I feel about the LW...did she misquote to make it sound more chauvinistic or did she become offended over an obviously tough in cheek term.

As a side it sounds like she and her spouse are disagreeing about the group a bit....he WANTS to quit but hasn't
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: fountainof on February 04, 2014, 04:43:42 PM
I don't have a problem with a men only club just like I don't have a problem with a women only club.  I think the secret stuff depends on what it is.  If a friend tells me something private and ask me not to tell DH I either have to agree or tell her I cannot agree and in the future she won't tell me anything anymore.  It is possible the "secrets" are boring things that are just made to sound exciting by saying they are secrets.  I think sharing ever secret with your spouse could cross over to gossip.

I think demanding anyone not involved in the group to do anything is rude, regardless of gender.  I think asking a spouse to leave his/her own home is rude regardless of gender.  I think if the spouse wants to leave as he/she is not interested in being home when the group is there fine, I think the spouse being asked to leave the group to itself is fine as well as long as it works for the couple.  For example, if I hosted a baby shower my DH would so not want to be in the living room.  However, if he was the type of guy who would join in I would ask him not too as if it were all women, one husband changes the dynamics.  However, I wouldn't expect him to leave the house, he could just hand out in a different area and I wouldn't expect him to never cross paths with the group rather just try to not interrupt the group.

So like most others, I think it is a relationship issue not a group issue as unless this older man is the other's employer he really cannot force them to do anything.

ETA: I didn't really think of the ages but you are right.  My Mom is 65 and if my Dad had ever assumed she would clean, make snacks and leave her home she would just have laughed and told him to order pizza she'll be in the other room.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: DavidH on February 04, 2014, 04:54:04 PM
While I'm convinced that the letter writer doesn't like the organizer, I'm not convinced she's an unbiased source.  If she or any other wife for that matter doesn't want to prepare for the evening, then she shouldn't.  How exactly would the club founder dictate who prepares for the evening?  "Skirts", does anyone really say that? 

I can completely see why meeting at a coffee shop and meeting at someone's home wouldn't be the same thing.  My first thoughts were more time to talk, not have to sit at a table, no pressure to order something.  Shady investments and scrabble weren't top of my list. 

It seems like the choices are either he leave the group or he doesn't.  If he stays, he can suggest changing the rules, but others may not agree.  He could also start another group.

If he stays, they can decide not to host at their house or play by the rules. 

The best option would be for her to talk to her husband about his level of involvement and what her role is. 
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: jaxsue on February 04, 2014, 06:02:46 PM
I'd be interested in knowing the age of the organizer of these men-only groups.

My DH is 66, and would never call women 'skirts'.

Yeah, I haven't heard women called that for a long, long time. It reminds me of a 1940s movie.  :)
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: lollylegs on February 04, 2014, 06:35:59 PM
If you look at how the original letter is worded, it's also likely that the *letter writer*, being a "woman of a certain age," is assuming that "therefore" (her very word) the wives are the ones doing the cleaning/cooking.

Quote
He made a rule that women are not allowed in their own homes when their husbands host a meeting -- "no skirts allowed." Therefore, even though the wife prepares everything for her husband's meeting, she's told to slip out of the house before anyone arrives.

"His" rule is only that women are not allowed in their own homes. She is the one who is making the conclusion that the wife has prepared everything.

Count me in as another who disliked the event organizer from the get-go. None of my elderly grandfathers would have been caught dead referring to women as "Skirts". And insisting that it will be the women who prepare for the event, and then be banished from their own homes? Aww E-Hell no!

The bolded is the reason why I think the letter writer is openly biased about the organizer. The organizer can't insist the wives prepare anything. Their husband's might ask them to or the husband's might be assuming the wives will do it. But the organizer has no standing in the home.

The use of the word skirts I found funny. Sort of like saying "No Chicks Allowed" or for a women's party "No Dude's allowed". I don't find the world anymore chauvinistic than I would hearing someone use an old fashioned term like Dames. Neither are PC in today's world but lot's of humor isn't PC.

I'd like its unlikely all these husbands and wives meekly complied with an order that "the wives will clean and make us snacks and then get out."

The group organizer has the right to say "men only " , "each person hosts in their homes " ect and the member have the right to say "no way." or to leave the group.

"no skirts" sounds like something a 50s movie character would say , I could be wrong but does anyone know anyone who has said "skirts" referring to woman seriously ?   I've seen people jokily talk like someone out of a 40s detective movie... "See , Dames , Gams " ect.

I don't necessarily think that he said, "Rule One - no skirts! Rule Two - wives must clean before we arrive. There will be a white glove inspection and if we find out that the husband did the cleaning, he's out of the club!" I imagine it's more of a gentleman of a certain age/generation making assumptions about the distribution of labour, e.g. "Now fellas, there's no women allowed, so once they've finished the cleaning they can trot off to their knitting circle or whatever."

In other words, he's decreed that the host must clean and provide snacks, and has assumed that the women will naturally do it.

It may not be an incorrect assumption but let's remember  this is a 55+ community not a nursing home or even assisted living ...55 =20 in 1980 , 65 =20 in 1970 ie the kids in "that 70s show" not the parents.

I brought up the use of the words skirts because the LW used it as a quote.  In all honest if someone seriously refereed to me as a skirt and my husband wanted to go to their meeting I'd be furious. I would take it like "he mans woman haters club" or "ball and chain"

I'm honestly asking if "Skirts" was ever used seriously  I've hear people say "broads" seriously.  IF skirts was ever used seriously I would expect the user to be about 120+.   The word choice effects how I feel about the LW...did she misquote to make it sound more chauvinistic or did she become offended over an obviously tough in cheek term.

As a side it sounds like she and her spouse are disagreeing about the group a bit....he WANTS to quit but hasn't

Both very good points. Still, it's unreasonable for the organiser to tell the wives to leave the house.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: purple on February 04, 2014, 07:33:23 PM
I don't have any problems with him wanting to have a men's only get together and if it were my husband and his friends, I just would clean the house and make sure there were snacks for them.  That's just what I'd do because I would want to - I like my husband and his friends  :)

I'd not like to be told to leave my house, although I possibly would anyway, depending on the timing of their get togethers.  Like, if the shopping centres were open, I'd likely take the opportunity to go and wander around, do a bit of shopping - which is something that my husband doesn't normally accompany me to anyway because he doesn't enjoy just 'wandering around' type shopping.  If I didn't feel like going out or the timing wasn't suitable or something though, I'd probably just hang around in a different part of the house, watch a movie in the bedroom with the door closed or something and I'd expect that would be acceptable!

Having said all that, is it just me or is 'regular breakfasts' AND ' twice a month evening get togethers' excessive?  I mean, how many people are in this group? How many times would these twice monthly evenings be in my home?  Don't get me wrong, I don't begrudge my husband spending however much time with his friends that he wants to, so I don't have a problem that way, but twice a month (essentially every second week) PLUS regular breakfasts seems a bit OTT.

And the whole 'secret secrets' stuff wouldn't worry me either.  They can talk about whatever they want and I feel that my husband is entitled to his privacy and entitled to not tell me every single detail of his life and his conversations if he so desires.  The only time it would become a problem for me is if there was something that he kept from me which was directly related to me or something that would affect me, us or our relationship in some way.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: shhh its me on February 04, 2014, 08:04:55 PM


Both very good points. Still, it's unreasonable for the organiser to tell the wives to leave the house.
[/quote]

I trimmed the quotes a bit so I could just respond to this. 

The organizer isn't telling wifes they need to leave their homes , their husbands are. IT may seem like I'm splitting hairs but thats really what it is......  there is a "club rule" the husbands are choosing to join a club that requires they host with their wives not at home when its their turn to host.  The person who made the rule isn't rude the people choosing to enforce it may be.

I don't actually agree that its universally rude to host an event in your home that requires your spouse not to be present but even if I did I would say it's the husbands being rude not the rule-maker.

ITs a voluntary club , they are choosing to be members they are free to chose not to.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: lollylegs on February 04, 2014, 08:21:32 PM
Both very good points. Still, it's unreasonable for the organiser to tell the wives to leave the house.

I trimmed the quotes a bit so I could just respond to this. 

The organizer isn't telling wifes they need to leave their homes , their husbands are. IT may seem like I'm splitting hairs but thats really what it is......  there is a "club rule" the husbands are choosing to join a club that requires they host with their wives not at home when its their turn to host.  The person who made the rule isn't rude the people choosing to enforce it may be.

I don't actually agree that its universally rude to host an event in your home that requires your spouse not to be present but even if I did I would say it's the husbands being rude not the rule-maker.

ITs a voluntary club , they are choosing to be members they are free to chose not to.

Okay then, it's unreasonable to make a club rule regarding what other members of the household can do (or not do) in their own homes. That's not something that an outsider gets to decide. Yes the men joined up knowing that, but I think it's a rude rule to make in the first place.

I do agree with the bolded.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: LifeOnPluto on February 04, 2014, 08:22:56 PM
If you look at how the original letter is worded, it's also likely that the *letter writer*, being a "woman of a certain age," is assuming that "therefore" (her very word) the wives are the ones doing the cleaning/cooking.

Quote
He made a rule that women are not allowed in their own homes when their husbands host a meeting -- "no skirts allowed." Therefore, even though the wife prepares everything for her husband's meeting, she's told to slip out of the house before anyone arrives.

"His" rule is only that women are not allowed in their own homes. She is the one who is making the conclusion that the wife has prepared everything.

If that's the organiser's rule. I'd say he's definitely rude. He cannot presume to tell a non-member of his "club" what she can and can't do. The wives would be perfectly fine in ignoring it.

If it's the husbands' rule (or if they are attempting to enforce the organiser's rule) that's a relationship issue for each couple to sort out between themselves. And I actually think the husbands here would be somewhat rude, in signing up to a club with such a rule, without clearing it with their wives first.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: gellchom on February 04, 2014, 08:34:58 PM
Picturing the 55+ (but in reality much older on the average, as I'm guessing this gang is) condo Florida community where my mother-in-law lives, I can see how getting out of the house entirely would be the way to go.  The floor plans are so open, the only thing she could do would be to go in the bedroom, and she wouldn't be able to get to the kitchen or garage without walking right through the card game or whatever.  Plus if the guys like to be loud and swear or have bull session conversations, they would feel inhibited by a lady on the other side of the thin wall.  If I lived in her condo, I'd WANT to leave in this situation instead of staying in the bedroom all night.  So depending on the "geography" issues in the units in this community, and especially if there are enough members that they only infrequently meet at each person's house, I can see "empty house" being a reasonable rule, albeit one that might make some people decline to join, and I do agree that the spouse should agree before joining.

Even if it isn't just the LW, which I think it well may be, maybe some of these wives choose to clean up because they don't trust their husbands to do a good job and don't want the guys to see a dirty or messy house.  And as for cooking, maybe they think it's easier to fix snacks than to have an inexperienced husband make a mess, or maybe they hate to give up control of their kitchens.  I wouldn't clean up (actually my husband has done that for me), but I might fix snacks if I like the people or have something I'm trying to clear out of the house.

All in all, I agree that she is trying to blame the organizer when what it sounds like is really bothering her is that her husband spends so much time with this club at all.  She's not unreasonable not to like that, but she should, in my opinion, just be honest about what is really bothering her instead of trying to make it seem like a sexist issue. 

I mean, would she be happier if this exclusive club included women?
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: floridamom on February 04, 2014, 10:59:52 PM
Two words come to my mind!  "Stepford Wives"... the original 1975 version  >:D

Sorry  >:D
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: lowspark on February 05, 2014, 08:07:11 AM

Both very good points. Still, it's unreasonable for the organiser to tell the wives to leave the house.

I agree that it is unreasonable but I'm not sure it's rude. When someone starts a club they can make all the rules they want, reasonable or not. When people join the club they agree to the rules. If they find they don't like the rules, they can quit.

What is rude is to join the club and deliberately do things that are against the rules.

If the LW & her husband don't like the rules, they need to quit. Hubby can get together with his buddies in some other context.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: lowspark on February 05, 2014, 08:13:53 AM
Picturing the 55+ (but in reality much older on the average, as I'm guessing this gang is) condo Florida community where my mother-in-law lives, I can see how getting out of the house entirely would be the way to go.  The floor plans are so open, the only thing she could do would be to go in the bedroom, and she wouldn't be able to get to the kitchen or garage without walking right through the card game or whatever.  Plus if the guys like to be loud and swear or have bull session conversations, they would feel inhibited by a lady on the other side of the thin wall.  If I lived in her condo, I'd WANT to leave in this situation instead of staying in the bedroom all night.  So depending on the "geography" issues in the units in this community, and especially if there are enough members that they only infrequently meet at each person's house, I can see "empty house" being a reasonable rule, albeit one that might make some people decline to join, and I do agree that the spouse should agree before joining.

Even if it isn't just the LW, which I think it well may be, maybe some of these wives choose to clean up because they don't trust their husbands to do a good job and don't want the guys to see a dirty or messy house.  And as for cooking, maybe they think it's easier to fix snacks than to have an inexperienced husband make a mess, or maybe they hate to give up control of their kitchens.  I wouldn't clean up (actually my husband has done that for me), but I might fix snacks if I like the people or have something I'm trying to clear out of the house.

All in all, I agree that she is trying to blame the organizer when what it sounds like is really bothering her is that her husband spends so much time with this club at all.  She's not unreasonable not to like that, but she should, in my opinion, just be honest about what is really bothering her instead of trying to make it seem like a sexist issue. 

I mean, would she be happier if this exclusive club included women?

I think if the layout of the house is such that privacy cannot be provided and the wife chooses to leave rather than hole up in the bedroom, that's fine because it's her choice.

In my house, the master bedroom is in the far back of the house so if one of us has guests and the other one stays in the back bedroom, no one in the public areas of the house even need know there's anyone else in the house.

But I'd venture to say that a layout where one can get from the bedroom to the kitchen or garage without going through the family room or at least passing it in some way is the exception rather than the rule. So like in the bunco thread, I think it's reasonable to say that the spouse isn't welcome to hang out with the "club" but not reasonable to say the spouse has to completely disappear to the point of not being allowed to be in the home at all.

But again, is unreasonable equal to rude? In this case, I'm not sure it is.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: SamiHami on February 05, 2014, 09:53:41 AM
No one gets to tell me that I have to leave my own home. Period. If they are that worried about preserving their secrets then they should find a venue that does not displace nonmembers from their own homes.

This sounds to me like the Little Rascals all grown up...the adult version of the "He Man Woman Haters Club."
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: TurtleDove on February 05, 2014, 10:13:40 AM
I didn't assume the use of the word "skirts" was derogatory.  I have only ever heard it used in a tongue in cheek joking manner.  I think you can dislike its use, but to say that anyone who uses the term is a woman hater seems extreme. 

I think the writer is very biased so who knows where the truth lies.  But if the letter writer doesn't like the club, this sounds like a relationship issue with her husband, not the organizer of the club.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: KenveeB on February 05, 2014, 10:56:38 AM
No one gets to tell me that I have to leave my own home. Period. If they are that worried about preserving their secrets then they should find a venue that does not displace nonmembers from their own homes.

This sounds to me like the Little Rascals all grown up...the adult version of the "He Man Woman Haters Club."

They do have a venue that works -- members' homes who've agreed to it. If you don't like it, then you don't join. It's pretty simple.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: BabyMama on February 05, 2014, 11:18:42 AM
While I would not make snacks and leave, this is a older generation where that might be more common.

I just read an article the other day (ok, skimmed it) that pointed out that today's older people are different from the older people we all grew up with. No longer are grandparents turn of the century, children of immigrants, WWI and WWII veterans, or Depression babies. We're coming up on grandparents who grew up in the '60s and '70s and may have a very different outlook than the generation we've come to think of as "old folks."

Kind of like that meme that says, "I still think of 10 years ago as the 1990s."

ETA: Ahh, I see shhh got there before me.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: doodlemor on February 05, 2014, 11:23:22 AM
The club organizer has every right to set his own rules.  The members have the right to join or not, depending on whether they care for the rules. It does sound like the letter writer's husband is uncomfortable with the club, and is planning to drop out. 

If the wives feel unhappy with leaving their homes and the husbands don't support them, then those would be couples' issues.

I also think that the club organizer sounds like a total boor, and that there should be logical consequences for his actions.  Since he doesn't want to socialize with the wives, I think that there is no reason that the wives are obligated to invite him to any of the parties/events that they organize.  Why would they want to socialize with someone who seems very disrespectful of women?

If I were one of the wives, I'd make sure to

Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: Hmmmmm on February 05, 2014, 11:29:30 AM
No one gets to tell me that I have to leave my own home. Period. If they are that worried about preserving their secrets then they should find a venue that does not displace nonmembers from their own homes.

This sounds to me like the Little Rascals all grown up...the adult version of the "He Man Woman Haters Club."

They do have a venue that works -- members' homes who've agreed to it. If you don't like it, then you don't join. It's pretty simple.

I agree with this. While my DH can't banish me from my home I am willing to accommodate a request.

-My sister belonged to an early menopause support group that met monthly in group member's home. Rule was that only group members should be in the home during the meeting.
-A good friend belongs to a women's bible study group. Rule is that no kids or non-group members are in the home during the meetings as they discuss very personal issues that they want to remain within the group.
-I used to belong to a neighborhood/PTA women's informal social group. We had get togethers about 6 to 8 times a year. Whoever was hosting knew that it was best to have all kids and spouses out of the house during these events. I'm not sure if the rule was ever spoken, but in more than 20 events I attended, no child or spouse was seen unless you arrived early as they were leaving were still there when they returned home.
-My dad belonged to a hunting lodge that was "no kids/no wives" for more than 20 years. Twice a year, the families were invited to come out for a big bbq or fish fry. It never seemed odd to me. My mom belonged to a garden club and we all vacated the house when she was hosting.

To me the only rude person is the wife who, as a non-member, is trying to change the rules agreed to by the members. Her only skin in the game is whether she is willing to support her DH in being a member. If she doesn't then she needs to address it with him. Not try to force her views on others.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: gellchom on February 05, 2014, 01:27:17 PM
No one gets to tell me that I have to leave my own home. Period. If they are that worried about preserving their secrets then they should find a venue that does not displace nonmembers from their own homes.

This sounds to me like the Little Rascals all grown up...the adult version of the "He Man Woman Haters Club."

They do have a venue that works -- members' homes who've agreed to it. If you don't like it, then you don't join. It's pretty simple.

I agree with this. While my DH can't banish me from my home I am willing to accommodate a request.

-My sister belonged to an early menopause support group that met monthly in group member's home. Rule was that only group members should be in the home during the meeting.
-A good friend belongs to a women's bible study group. Rule is that no kids or non-group members are in the home during the meetings as they discuss very personal issues that they want to remain within the group.
-I used to belong to a neighborhood/PTA women's informal social group. We had get togethers about 6 to 8 times a year. Whoever was hosting knew that it was best to have all kids and spouses out of the house during these events. I'm not sure if the rule was ever spoken, but in more than 20 events I attended, no child or spouse was seen unless you arrived early as they were leaving were still there when they returned home.
-My dad belonged to a hunting lodge that was "no kids/no wives" for more than 20 years. Twice a year, the families were invited to come out for a big bbq or fish fry. It never seemed odd to me. My mom belonged to a garden club and we all vacated the house when she was hosting.

To me the only rude person is the wife who, as a non-member, is trying to change the rules agreed to by the members. Her only skin in the game is whether she is willing to support her DH in being a member. If she doesn't then she needs to address it with him. Not try to force her views on others.

Very well put.  I can certainly understand couples who don't ever want to be in a position to ask each other to leave the house for any reason.  There's nothing wrong with that.  This club is not for them, and it is perfectly fine to decline to participate because you and your spouse are uncomfortable asking each other to leave.  But as in the examples given by Hmmmmm, I think it's also perfectly legitimate to require that the house be empty when it's your turn to host.  Even someone being in another room is inhibiting when people are discussing personal matters or even just letting their hair down and acting loud and goofy or something.

Although I certainly understand someone not liking the rule and declining to join over it, the rule itself is neither unreasonable nor rude -- just as although it is unreasonable and rude to go to someone's house and demand a sandwich and a drink, it's not rude for a club that rotates homes to have a rule that the host must provide sandwiches and drinks.

So Hmmmmm puts her finger right on it: it's one thing for the LW to ask her husband not to participate, quite another for her to condemn the whole club's existence as rude for having that rule.  And perhaps the real issue here is that her husband wants to participate even if it means asking her to leave -- i.e., they disagree on their own policy about that, which (understandably) hurts her feelings.  It sounds to me like maybe she is trying to reach for a global condemnation of the whole thing on etiquette grounds so that she doesn't have to focus on the personal issue, something we often see here.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: baglady on February 06, 2014, 08:08:59 AM
Quote
"No skirts allowed."

I wonder what he'd do if one of the guys showed up in a kilt.  >:D

Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: pierrotlunaire0 on February 07, 2014, 07:39:32 AM
So Hmmmmm puts her finger right on it: it's one thing for the LW to ask her husband not to participate, quite another for her to condemn the whole club's existence as rude for having that rule.  And perhaps the real issue here is that her husband wants to participate even if it means asking her to leave -- i.e., they disagree on their own policy about that, which (understandably) hurts her feelings.  It sounds to me like maybe she is trying to reach for a global condemnation of the whole thing on etiquette grounds so that she doesn't have to focus on the personal issue, something we often see here.

That is an excellent point.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: Winterlight on February 07, 2014, 08:01:23 AM
I think that the LW can tell her husband that she's not willing to do the cooking and cleaning for this event, so it's on him. But nobody is making her husband join this group, so it sounds more like a relationship issue between the two of them.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: TurtleDove on February 07, 2014, 08:41:02 AM
So Hmmmmm puts her finger right on it: it's one thing for the LW to ask her husband not to participate, quite another for her to condemn the whole club's existence as rude for having that rule.  And perhaps the real issue here is that her husband wants to participate even if it means asking her to leave -- i.e., they disagree on their own policy about that, which (understandably) hurts her feelings.  It sounds to me like maybe she is trying to reach for a global condemnation of the whole thing on etiquette grounds so that she doesn't have to focus on the personal issue, something we often see here.

That is an excellent point.

POD.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: mime on February 07, 2014, 10:58:53 AM
So Hmmmmm puts her finger right on it: it's one thing for the LW to ask her husband not to participate, quite another for her to condemn the whole club's existence as rude for having that rule.  And perhaps the real issue here is that her husband wants to participate even if it means asking her to leave -- i.e., they disagree on their own policy about that, which (understandably) hurts her feelings.  It sounds to me like maybe she is trying to reach for a global condemnation of the whole thing on etiquette grounds so that she doesn't have to focus on the personal issue, something we often see here.

That is an excellent point.

POD.

Ditto.

It looks like most of us are coming to the same conclusions:

1- A group can organize under whatever rules they like without being rude.

2- Participants can either join under those rules or decline without being rude.

3- The rudeness here was when a member (or in the case of the LW, an involved non-member) wants to impose new rules on the group to suit their own tastes.

4- The group leader could just want old-fashioned 'guy bonding time' or he could be a total pig. Hard to tell. He still has every right to start whatever kind of group he wants. How he treats the individuals involved will determine his rudeness level and should affect his acceptance into others' homes and lives.

I agree that the LW wants the group setup to be deemed rude because her husband may be OK with it and she doesn't like it.

It's very human. I'd prefer to believe my husband is rude when he disagrees with me rather than believe I could be wrong.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: Twik on February 07, 2014, 11:50:00 AM
It is rude for someone to expect their hostess to leave the house. If he's that concerned about not having women around, he could hold it in his own home on a regular basis.

However, the LW is not in a position to change him. She is, however, in a position to refuse to cooperate, and let her husband deal with the fallout.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: TootsNYC on February 07, 2014, 11:52:04 AM
But I think people here are saying (and the club is saying) that she's not the hostess--the club doesn't have a hostess. The club has hosts.

It may be her home, but she's not hosting the club; her husband is.

When my kid has friends over, I'm not hosting them; he is.
I will say, though, that I would refuse to leave the house in most instances.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: Twik on February 07, 2014, 12:03:49 PM
If you are expected to clean and provide food, you are hosting.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: TootsNYC on February 07, 2014, 12:13:41 PM
And that's our point--her husband is expected to clean and provide food; If he wants to tap into the skills and efforts of his housemate, that's between the two fo them.

(Also, do most people actually have to clean before people come over? When I didn't have a cleaning lady, that was me, but now that my place is cleaned regularly, it's not like I have to do anything extra.)
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: shhh its me on February 07, 2014, 12:20:47 PM
If you are expected to clean and provide food, you are hosting.

Thats exactly the point , if the organizer actually said "SO your wife needs to cook and clean and if I find out you did the cooking you're out of the club." that would be crazy. If the husbands ask their wife's to cook and clean , heck even if they demand it it doesn't make the organizer rude. It's also possible the the wife's  don't take issue with it.

There is also the assumption the wives are being asked to leave. I know plenty of people in their 50-70s who are not home or with their spouses at least 6 evening a month.  They have hobbies , other interests , friends and family they like to visit solo. There is no reason to 100% conclude that most of these meeting aren't on the night the wives are  already planning to be out playing bunco ;p
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: DavidH on February 07, 2014, 12:47:13 PM
I agree, this would be bizarre, "if the organizer actually said 'SO your wife needs to cook and clean and if I find out you did the cooking you're out of the club.' that would be crazy."  I, and I think most of us envision, the expectation is some sort of snacks and a reasonably clean house with the provider of that left unspecified. In this case, only the men are expected to host, it couldn't be more explicit, since the women can't even be in the house.

If the husband has an arrangement where he says to his wife, my friends are coming over, you need to cook and clean, then that's a relationship choice.  Most of the people I know would find a foot united with their nether regions if they said any variation of, my friends are coming over, you need to cook and clean for them and not be present while they are here. 
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: meronym on February 07, 2014, 12:47:57 PM
If you are expected to clean and provide food, you are hosting.

Thats exactly the point , if the organizer actually said "SO your wife needs to cook and clean and if I find out you did the cooking you're out of the club." that would be crazy. If the husbands ask their wife's to cook and clean , heck even if they demand it it doesn't make the organizer rude. It's also possible the the wife's  don't take issue with it.

There is also the assumption the wives are being asked to leave. I know plenty of people in their 50-70s who are not home or with their spouses at least 6 evening a month.  They have hobbies , other interests , friends and family they like to visit solo. There is no reason to 100% conclude that most of these meeting aren't on the night the wives are  already planning to be out playing bunco ;p

We can only go by the letter, which says "He made a rule that women are not allowed in their own homes when their husbands host a meeting -- "no skirts allowed." Therefore, even though the wife prepares everything for her husband's meeting, she's told to slip out of the house before anyone arrives."

Therefore, from this line, it sounds like the organizer himself came up with and is insisting on this rule. It's an obnoxious rule but, since he can't actually enforce it, I wouldn't call it rude. If the LW doesn't agree with the "rule" she doesn't have to follow it. If her husband tries to enforce it, well that's a relationship issue which doesn't follow normal etiquette.

ETA: Some people in this thread have indicated that they think the Lw is biased and be making the organizer sound worse than he is. So maybe he's not making a rule about who preps but that's how the LW has chosen to spin the situation. However, we kind of have to assume that she's being honest.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: meronym on February 07, 2014, 12:48:17 PM
(Also, do most people actually have to clean before people come over? When I didn't have a cleaning lady, that was me, but now that my place is cleaned regularly, it's not like I have to do anything extra.)

Yes, most people have to clean their own homes. I don't think the majority of people have a cleaner.

But nice little brag there.  ;)  :)
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: lowspark on February 07, 2014, 12:58:26 PM
I went back and reread the letter. LW says,
Quote
even though the wife prepares everything for her husband's meeting, she's told to slip out of the house before anyone arrives

To me that sounds like that's the arrangement the LW and her husband have not something the club founder has said. It sounds like in their house the wife is the one who does the preparing when guests are coming and now she's incensed that she is doing all this and not getting to stay while the meeting is going on.

Then she says,
Quote
My husband agrees that this is ridiculous and is considering quitting the club

Here's the conversation I imagine:
Husband: The men's club is coming over tonight. You'll need to prepare for them.
LW: But I don't want to leave the house. Organizer is a chauvinist.
Husband:  ::) Oh yeah, I agree, I could quit the club but I've made friends with these guys. I feel bad about it but it's all the organizer's fault! He's got us bamboozled.
LW: Grumble grumble
Husband: Heh heh heh (evil laugh)

So yeah, I see this as a matter between husband and wife. She doesn't want to leave the house and he doesn't want to quit. In her place I'd probably just tell him to do his own "preparing", whatever that entails, and I'd go out and _______. (Fill in the blank with whatever you like to do. Shop, go to the movies, etc.)

ETA: Even though I alluded to this, I meant to say that "preparing" is what she says in the letter without expanding on what that actually entails. Could be a clean up from top to bottom and gourmet snacks or it could just mean making sure there are clean towels in the bathroom or whatever. So we don't actually know how much work is involved in "preparing".
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: TootsNYC on February 07, 2014, 01:04:09 PM
(Also, do most people actually have to clean before people come over? When I didn't have a cleaning lady, that was me, but now that my place is cleaned regularly, it's not like I have to do anything extra.)

Yes, most people have to clean their own homes. I don't think the majority of people have a cleaner.

But nice little brag there.  ;)  :)

That wasn't my point at all. That's kind of insulting, winkie aside.

My point is, don't most people have to clean their homes "just because"?

Do they really have to do some sort of special cleaning just become a few people are coming over?

If you keep your home reasonably clean at all times, you shouldn't have to.

And if, like me, you're a slob, it's not really fair to complain that "suddenly you have to clean your house." You have to clean your home sometime.

The cleaning lady was mentioned to say that I have been both a slob and a person whose home is cleaned regularly. Now that it's cleaned regularly, my DH and I wouldn't have to do anything particularly difficult if his friends came over.
    In the old days, I would have--but that would be because I didn't do it earlier, not because of the gathering.

I don't think it's fair to complain that you have to clean your home.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: TootsNYC on February 07, 2014, 01:06:11 PM
If you are expected to clean and provide food, you are hosting.

Thats exactly the point , if the organizer actually said "SO your wife needs to cook and clean and if I find out you did the cooking you're out of the club." that would be crazy. If the husbands ask their wife's to cook and clean , heck even if they demand it it doesn't make the organizer rude. It's also possible the the wife's  don't take issue with it.

There is also the assumption the wives are being asked to leave. I know plenty of people in their 50-70s who are not home or with their spouses at least 6 evening a month.  They have hobbies , other interests , friends and family they like to visit solo. There is no reason to 100% conclude that most of these meeting aren't on the night the wives are  already planning to be out playing bunco ;p

We can only go by the letter, which says "He made a rule that women are not allowed in their own homes when their husbands host a meeting -- "no skirts allowed." Therefore, even though the wife prepares everything for her husband's meeting, she's told to slip out of the house before anyone arrives."

Therefore, from this line, it sounds like the organizer himself came up with and is insisting on this rule. It's an obnoxious rule but, since he can't actually enforce it, I wouldn't call it rude. If the LW doesn't agree with the "rule" she doesn't have to follow it. If her husband tries to enforce it, well that's a relationship issue which doesn't follow normal etiquette.

ETA: Some people in this thread have indicated that they think the Lw is biased and be making the organizer sound worse than he is. So maybe he's not making a rule about who preps but that's how the LW has chosen to spin the situation. However, we kind of have to assume that she's being honest.


The "therefore" is the letter writer's, not the organizer's. I read that very line as *her* conclusion. (Just as your own sentence that begins with "Therefore" reflects your own logic and deductions.) His rule is, "no skirts allowed during the meeting."

The letter writer is the one who is drawing conclusions.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: DavidH on February 07, 2014, 01:18:40 PM
Completely agree Toots, if we go only by the letter writer:

She states, "He made a rule that women are not allowed in their own homes when their husbands host a meeting -- 'no skirts allowed'."   

Her next sentence is, "Therefore, even though the wife prepares everything for her husband's meeting, she's told to slip out of the house before anyone arrives." She says nothing about whether or not there is a rule requiring preparation or who is required to do it. 

Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: TurtleDove on February 07, 2014, 01:20:30 PM
(Also, do most people actually have to clean before people come over? When I didn't have a cleaning lady, that was me, but now that my place is cleaned regularly, it's not like I have to do anything extra.)

Yes, most people have to clean their own homes. I don't think the majority of people have a cleaner.

But nice little brag there.  ;)  :)

I don't have a cleaner and I don't have to clean my house before people come over. "Clean" is a mostly perpetual state in my house.

Yep.  I didn't see TootsNYC's post as a brag but as a question. I keep my house clean for myself and for my family because, well, we deserve to live in a nice clean house.  Guests also enjoy my clean house, but it's not like I live in filth unless and until guests come over. 
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: shhh its me on February 07, 2014, 01:24:49 PM
If you are expected to clean and provide food, you are hosting.

Thats exactly the point , if the organizer actually said "SO your wife needs to cook and clean and if I find out you did the cooking you're out of the club." that would be crazy. If the husbands ask their wife's to cook and clean , heck even if they demand it it doesn't make the organizer rude. It's also possible the the wife's  don't take issue with it.

There is also the assumption the wives are being asked to leave. I know plenty of people in their 50-70s who are not home or with their spouses at least 6 evening a month.  They have hobbies , other interests , friends and family they like to visit solo. There is no reason to 100% conclude that most of these meeting aren't on the night the wives are  already planning to be out playing bunco ;p

We can only go by the letter, which says "He made a rule that women are not allowed in their own homes when their husbands host a meeting -- "no skirts allowed." Therefore, even though the wife prepares everything for her husband's meeting, she's told to slip out of the house before anyone arrives."

Therefore, from this line, it sounds like the organizer himself came up with and is insisting on this rule. It's an obnoxious rule but, since he can't actually enforce it, I wouldn't call it rude. If the LW doesn't agree with the "rule" she doesn't have to follow it. If her husband tries to enforce it, well that's a relationship issue which doesn't follow normal etiquette.

ETA: Some people in this thread have indicated that they think the Lw is biased and be making the organizer sound worse than he is. So maybe he's not making a rule about who preps but that's how the LW has chosen to spin the situation. However, we kind of have to assume that she's being honest.

The bolded "therefore" is the LW opinion/conclusion.  It's a totally different sentence "the organizer insist that the wifes do all the cooking and cleaning and then leave the home.".

Rule = no wife's in home during meeting  does not equal (how do I do the = with the / through it?) wives cook for meeting and then must leave.

There are probable 100s of reasons a spouse may want to host alone (what 2- 4 times a year. I'm going to guess the club has at least 6-12 members so each hosts once every 6-3 months) abuse support groups , veterans groups , AA type groups , menopause  groups, prostrate cancer survivors ,  lingerie parties , make-up parties , botox parties , poker nights , any lecture for a private group , discussing a legal or financial plan for the ski club ,  romance novel book club , discussing an invention idea , foodies , football fanatics ,  WOW nights , political activism , the Justin Beiber fan club any of these things might make a group say no non-members and some are men's only some woman's some mixed gender.   IF you don't like the club rules don't join the club or change the rules.   
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: lowspark on February 07, 2014, 01:32:15 PM
Again, we have no idea what "prepare" entails. I kinda doubt the members of the club, even the organizer, are giving the house the white glove test.

I mean, it's a group of guys. Most likely they'd be happy with some store-bought chips, dips & beer or similar.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: TootsNYC on February 07, 2014, 01:40:41 PM
Well, that's a little stereotyping as well.

But true--we have no idea what "prepare" entails, and I would bet each member is entitled to define it as they would like. Especially the "clean for a certain value of 'clean' " idea.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: lowspark on February 07, 2014, 01:59:47 PM
Well, that's a little stereotyping as well.

But true--we have no idea what "prepare" entails, and I would bet each member is entitled to define it as they would like. Especially the "clean for a certain value of 'clean' " idea.

Yeah, it was meant tongue-in-cheek. I shoulda put in a smiley face.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: meronym on February 07, 2014, 02:05:42 PM
(Also, do most people actually have to clean before people come over? When I didn't have a cleaning lady, that was me, but now that my place is cleaned regularly, it's not like I have to do anything extra.)

Yes, most people have to clean their own homes. I don't think the majority of people have a cleaner.

But nice little brag there.  ;)  :)

I don't have a cleaner and I don't have to clean my house before people come over. "Clean" is a mostly perpetual state in my house.

I have clean and then I have "company clean". :)

I could (almost) always have someone in my house, assuming I haven't been working every day & night. It's clean but the floor won't have been freshly vacuumed, there will be mail or other daily clutter lying around, and I'm sure cat will left some fur somewhere. Nothing major but just general signs of habitation.

But before hosting there are lines in the carpet, the kitchen is mopped, all clutter is hidden away, and the cats are forbidden from shedding. ;)
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: TurtleDove on February 07, 2014, 02:08:15 PM
...and the cats are forbidden from shedding. ;)

I am not a pet owner, but there is that phrase about buttering the cat and I always think this would help reduce shedding.  :)
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: lady_disdain on February 07, 2014, 02:44:04 PM
But the wife, in this case, isn't a hostess. She lives in the house, sure, but she is not expected to do anything required of a hostess. Her husband, the club member, is the host.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: TurtleDove on February 07, 2014, 02:48:30 PM
Granted, DH and I are not in our 60s, but general housework and cooking is split among those in our household.  That's the way it was in my family growing up as well.  If the wives have been doing all of the cooking and cleaning over the years, that is their prerogative.  But if they haven't, I highly doubt their husbands are suddenly going to force the wives to do all the cooking and cleanng for this particular event simply because the organizer says so.  This really is a relationship issue, as I see it.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: Delete My Account on February 07, 2014, 02:56:00 PM
This really is a relationship issue, as I see it.

I agree.

That's why I think the whether or not the wife stays in the home or prepares snacks for the group should be between the wife and the member of the group instead of according to the group's rules. Maybe some the member's wives are okay with it, but what if other wives are not? I wouldn't want other members dictating whether or not I get to stay in my own home (or make snacks for them and vamoose) while they're over, just because their wives are okay with it.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: TootsNYC on February 07, 2014, 03:01:01 PM
I don't think the group *does* dictate it. I think that assuming this is the case is assuming something that's not visible in the evidence.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: Delete My Account on February 07, 2014, 03:10:02 PM
I don't think the group *does* dictate it. I think that assuming this is the case is assuming something that's not visible in the evidence.

I re-read the letter, and it looks to me that the group leader definitely makes it a rule and the rest of the group consents to it.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: TootsNYC on February 07, 2014, 03:20:37 PM
I don't think the group *does* dictate it. I think that assuming this is the case is assuming something that's not visible in the evidence.

I re-read the letter, and it looks to me that the group leader definitely makes it a rule and the rest of the group consents to it.

I too re-read the letter, and it looks to me as if the letter writer is the one drawing the conclusion with "Therefore" (much the way -you- did in one of your posts).


Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: lowspark on February 07, 2014, 03:22:14 PM
It's up to the group, as a group, to set the rules. If all the other members are letting one guy decide the rules and going along with them, then they are still, in effect, setting the rules as a group. If a member of the group has an objection to one of the rules, he can speak up and try to sway the rest of the group to his side. 

But this change, if it indeed does get accepted by the group, has to be agreed to before it goes into effect. So this one couple can't just break the rule because they've decided they don't like it. The husband either has to convince the rest of the group to change the rule (at which time, the wife can then choose to stay at home during the meetings) or he can drop out or he can stay in and abide by the rule (and the wife has to vacate).
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: Olympia on February 07, 2014, 03:25:51 PM
(Also, do most people actually have to clean before people come over? When I didn't have a cleaning lady, that was me, but now that my place is cleaned regularly, it's not like I have to do anything extra.)

Yes, most people have to clean their own homes. I don't think the majority of people have a cleaner.

But nice little brag there.  ;)  :)

Isn't it, though. Kind of a variation on "excuse the mess, the cleaning lady comes tomorrow." Why mention it at all, let alone twice, if it's not to highlight that you have a cleaner?
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: TurtleDove on February 07, 2014, 03:29:54 PM
Isn't it, though. Kind of a variation on "excuse the mess, the cleaning lady comes tomorrow." Why mention it at all, let alone twice, if it's not to highlight that you have a cleaner?

It seems this has hit a nerve with some people.  The way I see it, it is simply part of the context.  When I mention that I drove my car somewhere, I am not bragging about owning a car, even though I know not everyone has a car.  If I am upset because I lost a diamond earring, I am not bragging that I own diamond earrings, I am providing context for why I would be more upset than if I had lost an earring that cost $3.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: Delete My Account on February 07, 2014, 03:31:53 PM
I don't think the group *does* dictate it. I think that assuming this is the case is assuming something that's not visible in the evidence.

I re-read the letter, and it looks to me that the group leader definitely makes it a rule and the rest of the group consents to it.

I too re-read the letter, and it looks to me as if the letter writer is the one drawing the conclusion with "Therefore" (much the way -you- did in one of your posts).

I am just going by the information with which the letter writer presented. I can only go by her side of the story. This is just the way I interpreted the situation, so I guess I just read it differently than you did.  I'm not trying to necessarily to "draw conclusions", just engage conversation.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: TootsNYC on February 07, 2014, 03:34:15 PM
(Also, do most people actually have to clean before people come over? When I didn't have a cleaning lady, that was me, but now that my place is cleaned regularly, it's not like I have to do anything extra.)

Yes, most people have to clean their own homes. I don't think the majority of people have a cleaner.

But nice little brag there.  ;)  :)

Isn't it, though. Kind of a variation on "excuse the mess, the cleaning lady comes tomorrow." Why mention it at all, let alone twice, if it's not to highlight that you have a cleaner?

Well, the 2nd mention was simply to explain why I'd mentioned it in the first place.

And for the record, I don't consider having a cleaning lady to be particularly unusual, or brag-worthy. Cleaning ladies are sort of basic in my community. If anything, it's proof that I'm such a crappy housecleaner that I have to hire someone else to do it.

Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: wolfie on February 07, 2014, 03:35:26 PM
Isn't it, though. Kind of a variation on "excuse the mess, the cleaning lady comes tomorrow." Why mention it at all, let alone twice, if it's not to highlight that you have a cleaner?

It seems this has hit a nerve with some people.  The way I see it, it is simply part of the context.  When I mention that I drove my car somewhere, I am not bragging about owning a car, even though I know not everyone has a car.  If I am upset because I lost a diamond earring, I am not bragging that I own diamond earrings, I am providing context for why I would be more upset than if I had lost an earring that cost $3.

For me it was kinda a disconnect that what is true for poster A doesn't mean it is true for every other poster.  Her confusion about why others need to clean when she has a cleaning lady and doesn't  need to seem sweird.

I do try to keep the house clean but I have pets so I always make it a point to vacuum before guests come over - especially the couch and chairs. And I also like to make sure the dishwasher is empty so I can just fill it when people leave. I consider that "cleaning before guests come".
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: TurtleDove on February 07, 2014, 03:37:44 PM
And for the record, I don't consider having a cleaning lady to be particularly unusual, or brag-worthy. Cleaning ladies are sort of basic in my community. If anything, it's proof that I'm such a crappy housecleaner that I have to hire someone else to do it.

Exactly.  This reminds me of the "hot lunch" situation when I was in elementary school.  I always wanted to have hot lunch because I thought it was what the rich kids did.  Meanwhile, my friends eating hot lunch were envious that first my mom, and later I, packed my own lunch from home - their parents didn't cook and didn't stock the pantry so they didn't have that option.  Different perspectives on the same facts.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: TootsNYC on February 07, 2014, 03:43:32 PM
It's just funny to be accused of bragging about it, bcs I *am* ashamed of the fact that I have one.

To me, "cleaning lady" simply means "house gets cleaned more often than once every three months" (and I mean that literally).
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: TootsNYC on February 07, 2014, 03:53:42 PM
Isn't it, though. Kind of a variation on "excuse the mess, the cleaning lady comes tomorrow." Why mention it at all, let alone twice, if it's not to highlight that you have a cleaner?

It seems this has hit a nerve with some people.  The way I see it, it is simply part of the context.  When I mention that I drove my car somewhere, I am not bragging about owning a car, even though I know not everyone has a car.  If I am upset because I lost a diamond earring, I am not bragging that I own diamond earrings, I am providing context for why I would be more upset than if I had lost an earring that cost $3.

For me it was kinda a disconnect that what is true for poster A doesn't mean it is true for every other poster. Her confusion about why others need to clean when she has a cleaning lady and doesn't  need to seems weird.

I do try to keep the house clean but I have pets so I always make it a point to vacuum before guests come over - especially the couch and chairs. And I also like to make sure the dishwasher is empty so I can just fill it when people leave. I consider that "cleaning before guests come".

And here I am assuming that non-deficient people keep their houses somewhat clean all the time. That they clean their houses somewhat regularly.


However, even when I didn't, I didn't consider "having the house clean" to be some *extra* thing imposed upon me by the gathering. If my house had been reasonably clean, I wouldn't need to do so horrible much extra. (I don't consider picking up the mail and emptying the dishwasher to be much in the way of "cleaning." If you get out the vacuum cleaner, yeah, but I either had to to *everything* or "just some picking up.")
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: wolfie on February 07, 2014, 03:59:52 PM
Isn't it, though. Kind of a variation on "excuse the mess, the cleaning lady comes tomorrow." Why mention it at all, let alone twice, if it's not to highlight that you have a cleaner?

It seems this has hit a nerve with some people.  The way I see it, it is simply part of the context.  When I mention that I drove my car somewhere, I am not bragging about owning a car, even though I know not everyone has a car.  If I am upset because I lost a diamond earring, I am not bragging that I own diamond earrings, I am providing context for why I would be more upset than if I had lost an earring that cost $3.

For me it was kinda a disconnect that what is true for poster A doesn't mean it is true for every other poster. Her confusion about why others need to clean when she has a cleaning lady and doesn't  need to seems weird.

I do try to keep the house clean but I have pets so I always make it a point to vacuum before guests come over - especially the couch and chairs. And I also like to make sure the dishwasher is empty so I can just fill it when people leave. I consider that "cleaning before guests come".

And here I am assuming that non-deficient people keep their houses somewhat clean all the time. That they clean their houses somewhat regularly.


However, even when I didn't, I didn't consider "having the house clean" to be some *extra* thing imposed upon me by the gathering. If my house had been reasonably clean, I wouldn't need to do so horrible much extra. (I don't consider picking up the mail and emptying the dishwasher to be much in the way of "cleaning." If you get out the vacuum cleaner, yeah, but I either had to to *everything* or "just some picking up.")

And not everyone is you. I have cardboard scratchers for the cats. Within hours I have little pieces of cardboard on the carpet. I don't mind it myself - keeps them happy and I can happily ignore it. But I am not going to allow others into my house without dragging out the vaccuum and getting rid of them for a few hours. I don't consider it an imposition - I do it because I want my friends to come over and I want a reasonably presentable house. But i wouldn't be doing it at that time if I didn't have people coming over so it is an extra thing I have to do if I have a gathering.

Not everyone who needs to clean is a slob. Not everyone who is a slob has a housekeeper. Not everyone who has a housekeeper is a slob.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: White Lotus on February 07, 2014, 04:06:09 PM
If the Prof tried to pull this one on me, he'd get "You know where the vacuum and duster are, and if you don't want to cook, you know where the delivery menus are.  I will be in my studio.  I expect the house clean when I emerge, because I am not cleaning up after your friends."  This group and its leader have no power over ME.
Yes, we have a housekeeper; yes, we are reasonably clean people who pick up after ourselves; and yes, we fluff before company comes.  I wouldn't expect him to clean, cook, leave and return to clean up after my friends.  Sauce for the goose definitely suits the gander.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: TootsNYC on February 07, 2014, 04:08:10 PM

And not everyone is you. I have cardboard scratchers for the cats. Within hours I have little pieces of cardboard on the carpet. I don't mind it myself - keeps them happy and I can happily ignore it. But I am not going to allow others into my house without dragging out the vaccuum and getting rid of them for a few hours. I don't consider it an imposition - I do it because I want my friends to come over and I want a reasonably presentable house. But i wouldn't be doing it at that time if I didn't have people coming over so it is an extra thing I have to do if I have a gathering.


And that is what my question was: how much extra housecleaning do people have to do? And do they consider it an imposition, or just "normal household maintenance"?
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: gellchom on February 07, 2014, 04:27:45 PM
Our house is kept reasonably clean, and like Toots, I have to admit that that is in large part thanks to the cleaning lady! 

Whether or not I clean more or even "fluff" (I like that, White Lotus -- reminds me of the Fab Five's "zhuzh") as in, pick up papers lying around, vacuum up pet hair, etc., before company comes depends.  A party?  Sure.  Almost as much for a meeting.  But just my pal coming over for a coffee?  Nah.

But I know people who would feel embarrassed if the dishwasher repairman came in and the rugs weren't freshly vacuumed.  I have a friend who was putting up a teenager for a night and felt she had to wash and iron the curtains.  Everyone has different feelings about how much we care about how others see our homes.  Toots, that's my answer to your question: someone who feels that everything has to be shipshape before any guests come might well see it as an imposition. 

My feeling about this LW was -- well, actually, it was that probably this had nothing to do with this, just that she didn't want her husband in this club, period, and all these other issues are red herrings.  But assuming it wasn't, and she really was reacting to how unfair it feels that she "has to" fix snacks and maybe clean before a meeting she isn't invited to, my guess is that she is (a) a person who always wants her house to look its best and have nice refreshments when guests of any kind are there and (b) married to a guy who either won't bother to clean or fix food or won't do it up to her standards.  He may well have told her, "Don't bother -- these guys won't care or even notice."  And she might have responded, or thought, "Maybe not, but I'm not having them go home and tell their wives there were newspapers all over the place."

I mean, if I were in her place, I might help my husband if he needed me to and asked me, but basically I'd feel "Your party, your preparation."

But then, I don't really care if his friends see my house looking less than optimal and I don't care if he gives them cheap packaged cookies or something.

And more to the point: I wouldn't care if he were in an all-men club, even if it meant I clear out once in a while when it's his turn to host.  I can certainly see how other spouses might not feel the same way, and that's fine -- but all this stuff about a "hostess" being "banished from her own home" just doesn't fit the facts.

I still think this all boils down to her trying to win a dispute with her husband about his being in this club at all by reframing it as an etiquette and misogyny issue about the club-members-only-in-the-house rule.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: Amanita on February 07, 2014, 04:56:12 PM


-A good friend belongs to a women's bible study group. Rule is that no kids or non-group members are in the home during the meetings as they discuss very personal issues that they want to remain within the group.



If somebody in the home I'm living in now joined a group with those rules, that would be a real burden to me- I am a non driver and live in an area very poorly served by public transit. (It only serves office workers and others who work 9-5 hours, no evening or night service) And my neighborhood has nowhere to walk to, nothing to do. None of my friends live nearby either. So if I found myself ordered out of the house, I'd be in a real bind. There's nowhere around here for me to go to, and for a good chunk of the year it's too cold to just "go for a long walk". So unless somebody was willing to drive me somewhere, there would be a real problem. (We live too far outside of town for a taxi- the fare would be easily $50 or 60.)
Now, if the group members understood my situation and were cool with me staying in my room with the headphones on and playing World of Warcraft, good luck hearing "personal stuff" over the clamor of a 25 person raid!), that would be cool. If not, me being ordered out of my own home would be a real imposition- I would need to find transportation, and would probably end up having to spend money- here in my town, there's not a lot to do downtown during the evenings unless you're spending money, and I can't always just go to a friend's house, as some of them work hours as odd as mine.

I wonder if any of the wives in this group are in a similar situation? Depending on their community, there may not be a lot of options for "just slipping out and going somewhere", that going double for non drivers. And there may not be a lot of things to "slip out" and go do, some places close down pretty early or just don't have a lot going on to begin with.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: LifeOnPluto on February 07, 2014, 10:35:55 PM
Honestly, I don't see the LW's trying to change the rule as being rude.

This is a rule that she didn't have a say in, yet affects her very much (having to vacate her own home whenever the Men's Club is over). I see this as one of the situations where it's ok to ask, provided you accept "no" for an answer.

In fact, perhaps by asking that the rule be adapted (eg the women can stay in the house, just not in the room, etc) is simply the LW's attempt to be a peace keeper, and find a solution that makes everyone happy?
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: MariaE on February 08, 2014, 02:05:57 AM
If you are expected to clean and provide food, you are hosting.

Thats exactly the point , if the organizer actually said "SO your wife needs to cook and clean and if I find out you did the cooking you're out of the club." that would be crazy. If the husbands ask their wife's to cook and clean , heck even if they demand it it doesn't make the organizer rude. It's also possible the the wife's  don't take issue with it.

There is also the assumption the wives are being asked to leave. I know plenty of people in their 50-70s who are not home or with their spouses at least 6 evening a month.  They have hobbies , other interests , friends and family they like to visit solo. There is no reason to 100% conclude that most of these meeting aren't on the night the wives are  already planning to be out playing bunco ;p

We can only go by the letter, which says "He made a rule that women are not allowed in their own homes when their husbands host a meeting -- "no skirts allowed." Therefore, even though the wife prepares everything for her husband's meeting, she's told to slip out of the house before anyone arrives."

Interesting, I read this line as "Therefore even if the wife..." or "Therefore even in households where the wife..." So cause and effect rather than an actual extension of the rule.

Amanita, you'd be fine if a housemate of yours joined our bible study group, because that's exactly how we work  :)  Spouses in no way need to leave the house, they just need to not be in the same room where we are.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: zyrs on February 08, 2014, 03:28:50 AM
If I joined a club like this, I'd have a hard time asking my wife to vacate the house for the club meetings just because it would be imposing on her.  But, I'd clean the house and prepare the snacks because expecting non-members to do that would just be silly.

Of course, I'd react to a "no skirts" rule by wearing a kilt. 
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: Ehelldame on February 08, 2014, 05:06:58 AM
(Also, do most people actually have to clean before people come over? When I didn't have a cleaning lady, that was me, but now that my place is cleaned regularly, it's not like I have to do anything extra.)

Yes, most people have to clean their own homes. I don't think the majority of people have a cleaner.

But nice little brag there.  ;)  :)

Isn't it, though. Kind of a variation on "excuse the mess, the cleaning lady comes tomorrow." Why mention it at all, let alone twice, if it's not to highlight that you have a cleaner?

Why are you making it an issue that someone hires a cleaning lady?   
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: floridamom on February 08, 2014, 10:47:12 AM
And for the record, I don't consider having a cleaning lady to be particularly unusual, or brag-worthy. Cleaning ladies are sort of basic in my community. If anything, it's proof that I'm such a crappy housecleaner that I have to hire someone else to do it.

Exactly.  This reminds me of the "hot lunch" situation when I was in elementary school.  I always wanted to have hot lunch because I thought it was what the rich kids did.  Meanwhile, my friends eating hot lunch were envious that first my mom, and later I, packed my own lunch from home - their parents didn't cook and didn't stock the pantry so they didn't have that option.  Different perspectives on the same facts.

Turtledove, you reminded me of a story my mom used to tell me about Oreo cookies and how much she loves them.  Mom grew up during the Depression and WWII, my grandmother would often pack homemade cookies in her lunch.  Mom had a classmate who's mom either worked at the local store or owned it (can't remember;) and would at times have Oreo cookies packed in his lunch. Mom was envious that he had store bought cookies and her classmate was envious that she had homemade cookies.  He loved the idea that my grandmother would make or take time to make cookies.  Mom and her classmate would often trade their snacks  ;D  To this day, mom still savors her Oreo cookies  ;D
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: Hmmmmm on February 08, 2014, 11:08:32 AM


-A good friend belongs to a women's bible study group. Rule is that no kids or non-group members are in the home during the meetings as they discuss very personal issues that they want to remain within the group.



If somebody in the home I'm living in now joined a group with those rules, that would be a real burden to me- I am a non driver and live in an area very poorly served by public transit. (It only serves office workers and others who work 9-5 hours, no evening or night service) And my neighborhood has nowhere to walk to, nothing to do. None of my friends live nearby either. So if I found myself ordered out of the house, I'd be in a real bind. There's nowhere around here for me to go to, and for a good chunk of the year it's too cold to just "go for a long walk". So unless somebody was willing to drive me somewhere, there would be a real problem. (We live too far outside of town for a taxi- the fare would be easily $50 or 60.)
Now, if the group members understood my situation and were cool with me staying in my room with the headphones on and playing World of Warcraft, good luck hearing "personal stuff" over the clamor of a 25 person raid!), that would be cool. If not, me being ordered out of my own home would be a real imposition- I would need to find transportation, and would probably end up having to spend money- here in my town, there's not a lot to do downtown during the evenings unless you're spending money, and I can't always just go to a friend's house, as some of them work hours as odd as mine.

I wonder if any of the wives in this group are in a similar situation? Depending on their community, there may not be a lot of options for "just slipping out and going somewhere", that going double for non drivers. And there may not be a lot of things to "slip out" and go do, some places close down pretty early or just don't have a lot going on to begin with.

But if your house companions knew of this limitation about your leaving the home I assume they wouldn't choose to join this particular bible study. So if you had a roommate who knew the rules of this group, joined and then said "but can you make an exception for my housemate, I promise she'll always have headphones on and won't listen", I'd be pretty annoyed and suggest they find a different group.

Honestly, I don't see the LW's trying to change the rule as being rude.

This is a rule that she didn't have a say in, yet affects her very much (having to vacate her own home whenever the Men's Club is over). I see this as one of the situations where it's ok to ask, provided you accept "no" for an answer.

In fact, perhaps by asking that the rule be adapted (eg the women can stay in the house, just not in the room, etc) is simply the LW's attempt to be a peace keeper, and find a solution that makes everyone happy?
This to me is a false statement. The "rule" doesn't effect her. The rule could exist without ever effecting her. Her husband's decision to join a group with the rule is what is impacting her life.

It's the same with Aminita's scenario. The bible study group could exist for years and never effect Aminita. it would be her housemates decision to join the group that would impact the Aminita.
Amanita's housemate shouldn't say "I want to join this particular group, but I don't want to agree to the rules that all the other group members seem perfectly fine to abide by and accept".

I also find the LW's statement that "Therefore, the wives must clean and prepare" very old fashioned. To me she is assuming that the other other couple's households are managed just like her's is... wives cook and clean and husband's do "?"  I honestly don't know of very many households run this way anymore, no matter the age group. Even in my parent's generation (they'd be in their 80's) the men were more than capable to put a tray of cheese, cracker, and meet together and run a broom across the kitchen floor.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: gollymolly2 on February 08, 2014, 03:40:09 PM
(Also, do most people actually have to clean before people come over? When I didn't have a cleaning lady, that was me, but now that my place is cleaned regularly, it's not like I have to do anything extra.)

Yes, most people have to clean their own homes. I don't think the majority of people have a cleaner.

But nice little brag there.  ;)  :)

Isn't it, though. Kind of a variation on "excuse the mess, the cleaning lady comes tomorrow." Why mention it at all, let alone twice, if it's not to highlight that you have a cleaner?

Why are you making it an issue that someone hires a cleaning lady?

To be fair, while I don't think Toots intended it to come off badly, the way she worded her question was pretty bad.

"Do most people have to do X? I used to have to do X, but then I got someone to do X for me."

To me, the only way to interpret that as written is "don't most people have someone to do X for them?"

I too have a housecleaner, so I don't personally care that someone else does. But I too found her statement as written to be either a weird brag that she had a cleaning lady or a really tone deaf statement about whether others do.



To the original story - I agree with those who've said it's a relationship issue. If it would help my husband maintain friendships, and he didn't normally take advantage of me, I would be happy to do this. If my husband had a habit of demanding that I cater to him and then make myself scarce, we'd have more serious problems than his Heman Woman Haters Club.

Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: LifeOnPluto on February 09, 2014, 12:54:56 AM


-A good friend belongs to a women's bible study group. Rule is that no kids or non-group members are in the home during the meetings as they discuss very personal issues that they want to remain within the group.



If somebody in the home I'm living in now joined a group with those rules, that would be a real burden to me- I am a non driver and live in an area very poorly served by public transit. (It only serves office workers and others who work 9-5 hours, no evening or night service) And my neighborhood has nowhere to walk to, nothing to do. None of my friends live nearby either. So if I found myself ordered out of the house, I'd be in a real bind. There's nowhere around here for me to go to, and for a good chunk of the year it's too cold to just "go for a long walk". So unless somebody was willing to drive me somewhere, there would be a real problem. (We live too far outside of town for a taxi- the fare would be easily $50 or 60.)
Now, if the group members understood my situation and were cool with me staying in my room with the headphones on and playing World of Warcraft, good luck hearing "personal stuff" over the clamor of a 25 person raid!), that would be cool. If not, me being ordered out of my own home would be a real imposition- I would need to find transportation, and would probably end up having to spend money- here in my town, there's not a lot to do downtown during the evenings unless you're spending money, and I can't always just go to a friend's house, as some of them work hours as odd as mine.

I wonder if any of the wives in this group are in a similar situation? Depending on their community, there may not be a lot of options for "just slipping out and going somewhere", that going double for non drivers. And there may not be a lot of things to "slip out" and go do, some places close down pretty early or just don't have a lot going on to begin with.

But if your house companions knew of this limitation about your leaving the home I assume they wouldn't choose to join this particular bible study. So if you had a roommate who knew the rules of this group, joined and then said "but can you make an exception for my housemate, I promise she'll always have headphones on and won't listen", I'd be pretty annoyed and suggest they find a different group.

Honestly, I don't see the LW's trying to change the rule as being rude.

This is a rule that she didn't have a say in, yet affects her very much (having to vacate her own home whenever the Men's Club is over). I see this as one of the situations where it's ok to ask, provided you accept "no" for an answer.

In fact, perhaps by asking that the rule be adapted (eg the women can stay in the house, just not in the room, etc) is simply the LW's attempt to be a peace keeper, and find a solution that makes everyone happy?
This to me is a false statement. The "rule" doesn't effect her. The rule could exist without ever effecting her. Her husband's decision to join a group with the rule is what is impacting her life.

It's the same with Aminita's scenario. The bible study group could exist for years and never effect Aminita. it would be her housemates decision to join the group that would impact the Aminita.
Amanita's housemate shouldn't say "I want to join this particular group, but I don't want to agree to the rules that all the other group members seem perfectly fine to abide by and accept".

I also find the LW's statement that "Therefore, the wives must clean and prepare" very old fashioned. To me she is assuming that the other other couple's households are managed just like her's is... wives cook and clean and husband's do "?"  I honestly don't know of very many households run this way anymore, no matter the age group. Even in my parent's generation (they'd be in their 80's) the men were more than capable to put a tray of cheese, cracker, and meet together and run a broom across the kitchen floor.

I disagree. The rule IS affecting her, regardless of whether it's the club organiser, or her husband, who is attempting to impose it on her.

And yes, it's arguable she could simply ignore the rule and stay in her house while the Men's Club meets. But that could result in ramifications for her husband (he could get chucked out of the club). The LW also mentioned that the club organiser has a lot of social clout in the retirement village. So ignoring the rule might also see the LW shunned socially.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: Iris on February 09, 2014, 02:26:41 AM

And not everyone is you. I have cardboard scratchers for the cats. Within hours I have little pieces of cardboard on the carpet. I don't mind it myself - keeps them happy and I can happily ignore it. But I am not going to allow others into my house without dragging out the vaccuum and getting rid of them for a few hours. I don't consider it an imposition - I do it because I want my friends to come over and I want a reasonably presentable house. But i wouldn't be doing it at that time if I didn't have people coming over so it is an extra thing I have to do if I have a gathering.


And that is what my question was: how much extra housecleaning do people have to do? And do they consider it an imposition, or just "normal household maintenance"?

I clean a fair bit when guests are coming. Although we regularly clean there are two factors.

1. Since we both work full time and have a busy out of work schedule with the kids, DH and I do bits each day e.g. sorting dvds the kids have left out one day, folding laundry another (obviously kitchens etc are cleaned every day). So the house is always 'mostly' tidy it's never all tidy at once so when people are coming we do a big 'all at once' clean. Also all the jobs that we can leave for a couple of weeks or so usually get done at the same time so it takes probably from 1 - 2 hours.

2. Since the house is small we lack storage space so there are things that are usually 'out' that we put away when guests are coming.

It's not a massively huge thing but I do consider a good clean as part of preparing for guests, separate from the household maintenance. I don't consider it an imposition though, it's just a part of hosting - if I didn't want to do it I wouldn't host.

Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: Hmmmmm on February 09, 2014, 10:29:12 AM


-A good friend belongs to a women's bible study group. Rule is that no kids or non-group members are in the home during the meetings as they discuss very personal issues that they want to remain within the group.



If somebody in the home I'm living in now joined a group with those rules, that would be a real burden to me- I am a non driver and live in an area very poorly served by public transit. (It only serves office workers and others who work 9-5 hours, no evening or night service) And my neighborhood has nowhere to walk to, nothing to do. None of my friends live nearby either. So if I found myself ordered out of the house, I'd be in a real bind. There's nowhere around here for me to go to, and for a good chunk of the year it's too cold to just "go for a long walk". So unless somebody was willing to drive me somewhere, there would be a real problem. (We live too far outside of town for a taxi- the fare would be easily $50 or 60.)
Now, if the group members understood my situation and were cool with me staying in my room with the headphones on and playing World of Warcraft, good luck hearing "personal stuff" over the clamor of a 25 person raid!), that would be cool. If not, me being ordered out of my own home would be a real imposition- I would need to find transportation, and would probably end up having to spend money- here in my town, there's not a lot to do downtown during the evenings unless you're spending money, and I can't always just go to a friend's house, as some of them work hours as odd as mine.

I wonder if any of the wives in this group are in a similar situation? Depending on their community, there may not be a lot of options for "just slipping out and going somewhere", that going double for non drivers. And there may not be a lot of things to "slip out" and go do, some places close down pretty early or just don't have a lot going on to begin with.

But if your house companions knew of this limitation about your leaving the home I assume they wouldn't choose to join this particular bible study. So if you had a roommate who knew the rules of this group, joined and then said "but can you make an exception for my housemate, I promise she'll always have headphones on and won't listen", I'd be pretty annoyed and suggest they find a different group.

Honestly, I don't see the LW's trying to change the rule as being rude.

This is a rule that she didn't have a say in, yet affects her very much (having to vacate her own home whenever the Men's Club is over). I see this as one of the situations where it's ok to ask, provided you accept "no" for an answer.

In fact, perhaps by asking that the rule be adapted (eg the women can stay in the house, just not in the room, etc) is simply the LW's attempt to be a peace keeper, and find a solution that makes everyone happy?
This to me is a false statement. The "rule" doesn't effect her. The rule could exist without ever effecting her. Her husband's decision to join a group with the rule is what is impacting her life.

It's the same with Aminita's scenario. The bible study group could exist for years and never effect Aminita. it would be her housemates decision to join the group that would impact the Aminita.
Amanita's housemate shouldn't say "I want to join this particular group, but I don't want to agree to the rules that all the other group members seem perfectly fine to abide by and accept".

I also find the LW's statement that "Therefore, the wives must clean and prepare" very old fashioned. To me she is assuming that the other other couple's households are managed just like her's is... wives cook and clean and husband's do "?"  I honestly don't know of very many households run this way anymore, no matter the age group. Even in my parent's generation (they'd be in their 80's) the men were more than capable to put a tray of cheese, cracker, and meet together and run a broom across the kitchen floor.

I disagree. The rule IS affecting her, regardless of whether it's the club organiser, or her husband, who is attempting to impose it on her.

And yes, it's arguable she could simply ignore the rule and stay in her house while the Men's Club meets. But that could result in ramifications for her husband (he could get chucked out of the club). The LW also mentioned that the club organiser has a lot of social clout in the retirement village. So ignoring the rule might also see the LW shunned socially.
No I'm not saying she should ignore the rule. That would be very rude in my opinion to the members of the group. I'm saying she can't request the rule be changed. And the rule only effects her because her husband joined the club. This is between her and her husband. Not her and the club organizer.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: gellchom on February 09, 2014, 05:29:14 PM
8i7
[snip]
Honestly, I don't see the LW's trying to change the rule as being rude.

This is a rule that she didn't have a say in, yet affects her very much (having to vacate her own home whenever the Men's Club is over). I see this as one of the situations where it's ok to ask, provided you accept "no" for an answer.

In fact, perhaps by asking that the rule be adapted (eg the women can stay in the house, just not in the room, etc) is simply the LW's attempt to be a peace keeper, and find a solution that makes everyone happy?
This to me is a false statement. The "rule" doesn't effect her. The rule could exist without ever effecting her. Her husband's decision to join a group with the rule is what is impacting her life.

It's the same with Aminita's scenario. The bible study group could exist for years and never effect Aminita. it would be her housemates decision to join the group that would impact the Aminita.
Amanita's housemate shouldn't say "I want to join this particular group, but I don't want to agree to the rules that all the other group members seem perfectly fine to abide by and accept".
[snip]
Hmmmmm puts her finger on it again.

Think about dues.  If a spouse joins a club that requires dues, I suppose you could say that that affects the other spouse, who didn't have a say in it.  But that doesn't make the dues requirement rude or make it an unreasonable imposition by the club on the nonmember spouse. 

Whether it is an unreasonable imposition by the member spouse is a different question, and one that simply has a different answer for different couples.  And that's the question I think that the LW was trying to avoid by diverting focus onto the club and the organizer instead of her husband.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: LifeOnPluto on February 09, 2014, 08:27:41 PM


-A good friend belongs to a women's bible study group. Rule is that no kids or non-group members are in the home during the meetings as they discuss very personal issues that they want to remain within the group.



If somebody in the home I'm living in now joined a group with those rules, that would be a real burden to me- I am a non driver and live in an area very poorly served by public transit. (It only serves office workers and others who work 9-5 hours, no evening or night service) And my neighborhood has nowhere to walk to, nothing to do. None of my friends live nearby either. So if I found myself ordered out of the house, I'd be in a real bind. There's nowhere around here for me to go to, and for a good chunk of the year it's too cold to just "go for a long walk". So unless somebody was willing to drive me somewhere, there would be a real problem. (We live too far outside of town for a taxi- the fare would be easily $50 or 60.)
Now, if the group members understood my situation and were cool with me staying in my room with the headphones on and playing World of Warcraft, good luck hearing "personal stuff" over the clamor of a 25 person raid!), that would be cool. If not, me being ordered out of my own home would be a real imposition- I would need to find transportation, and would probably end up having to spend money- here in my town, there's not a lot to do downtown during the evenings unless you're spending money, and I can't always just go to a friend's house, as some of them work hours as odd as mine.

I wonder if any of the wives in this group are in a similar situation? Depending on their community, there may not be a lot of options for "just slipping out and going somewhere", that going double for non drivers. And there may not be a lot of things to "slip out" and go do, some places close down pretty early or just don't have a lot going on to begin with.

But if your house companions knew of this limitation about your leaving the home I assume they wouldn't choose to join this particular bible study. So if you had a roommate who knew the rules of this group, joined and then said "but can you make an exception for my housemate, I promise she'll always have headphones on and won't listen", I'd be pretty annoyed and suggest they find a different group.

Honestly, I don't see the LW's trying to change the rule as being rude.

This is a rule that she didn't have a say in, yet affects her very much (having to vacate her own home whenever the Men's Club is over). I see this as one of the situations where it's ok to ask, provided you accept "no" for an answer.

In fact, perhaps by asking that the rule be adapted (eg the women can stay in the house, just not in the room, etc) is simply the LW's attempt to be a peace keeper, and find a solution that makes everyone happy?
This to me is a false statement. The "rule" doesn't effect her. The rule could exist without ever effecting her. Her husband's decision to join a group with the rule is what is impacting her life.

It's the same with Aminita's scenario. The bible study group could exist for years and never effect Aminita. it would be her housemates decision to join the group that would impact the Aminita.
Amanita's housemate shouldn't say "I want to join this particular group, but I don't want to agree to the rules that all the other group members seem perfectly fine to abide by and accept".

I also find the LW's statement that "Therefore, the wives must clean and prepare" very old fashioned. To me she is assuming that the other other couple's households are managed just like her's is... wives cook and clean and husband's do "?"  I honestly don't know of very many households run this way anymore, no matter the age group. Even in my parent's generation (they'd be in their 80's) the men were more than capable to put a tray of cheese, cracker, and meet together and run a broom across the kitchen floor.

I disagree. The rule IS affecting her, regardless of whether it's the club organiser, or her husband, who is attempting to impose it on her.

And yes, it's arguable she could simply ignore the rule and stay in her house while the Men's Club meets. But that could result in ramifications for her husband (he could get chucked out of the club). The LW also mentioned that the club organiser has a lot of social clout in the retirement village. So ignoring the rule might also see the LW shunned socially.
No I'm not saying she should ignore the rule. That would be very rude in my opinion to the members of the group. I'm saying she can't request the rule be changed. And the rule only effects her because her husband joined the club. This is between her and her husband. Not her and the club organizer.

So it's rude for her to ignore the rule, but also rude for her to ask that the rule be changed? So what exactly is the LW supposed to do? Suck it up and comply, even though she had no say in making it?
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: shhh its me on February 09, 2014, 08:56:14 PM


-A good friend belongs to a women's bible study group. Rule is that no kids or non-group members are in the home during the meetings as they discuss very personal issues that they want to remain within the group.



If somebody in the home I'm living in now joined a group with those rules, that would be a real burden to me- I am a non driver and live in an area very poorly served by public transit. (It only serves office workers and others who work 9-5 hours, no evening or night service) And my neighborhood has nowhere to walk to, nothing to do. None of my friends live nearby either. So if I found myself ordered out of the house, I'd be in a real bind. There's nowhere around here for me to go to, and for a good chunk of the year it's too cold to just "go for a long walk". So unless somebody was willing to drive me somewhere, there would be a real problem. (We live too far outside of town for a taxi- the fare would be easily $50 or 60.)
Now, if the group members understood my situation and were cool with me staying in my room with the headphones on and playing World of Warcraft, good luck hearing "personal stuff" over the clamor of a 25 person raid!), that would be cool. If not, me being ordered out of my own home would be a real imposition- I would need to find transportation, and would probably end up having to spend money- here in my town, there's not a lot to do downtown during the evenings unless you're spending money, and I can't always just go to a friend's house, as some of them work hours as odd as mine.

I wonder if any of the wives in this group are in a similar situation? Depending on their community, there may not be a lot of options for "just slipping out and going somewhere", that going double for non drivers. And there may not be a lot of things to "slip out" and go do, some places close down pretty early or just don't have a lot going on to begin with.

But if your house companions knew of this limitation about your leaving the home I assume they wouldn't choose to join this particular bible study. So if you had a roommate who knew the rules of this group, joined and then said "but can you make an exception for my housemate, I promise she'll always have headphones on and won't listen", I'd be pretty annoyed and suggest they find a different group.

Honestly, I don't see the LW's trying to change the rule as being rude.

This is a rule that she didn't have a say in, yet affects her very much (having to vacate her own home whenever the Men's Club is over). I see this as one of the situations where it's ok to ask, provided you accept "no" for an answer.

In fact, perhaps by asking that the rule be adapted (eg the women can stay in the house, just not in the room, etc) is simply the LW's attempt to be a peace keeper, and find a solution that makes everyone happy?
This to me is a false statement. The "rule" doesn't effect her. The rule could exist without ever effecting her. Her husband's decision to join a group with the rule is what is impacting her life.

It's the same with Aminita's scenario. The bible study group could exist for years and never effect Aminita. it would be her housemates decision to join the group that would impact the Aminita.
Amanita's housemate shouldn't say "I want to join this particular group, but I don't want to agree to the rules that all the other group members seem perfectly fine to abide by and accept".

I also find the LW's statement that "Therefore, the wives must clean and prepare" very old fashioned. To me she is assuming that the other other couple's households are managed just like her's is... wives cook and clean and husband's do "?"  I honestly don't know of very many households run this way anymore, no matter the age group. Even in my parent's generation (they'd be in their 80's) the men were more than capable to put a tray of cheese, cracker, and meet together and run a broom across the kitchen floor.

I disagree. The rule IS affecting her, regardless of whether it's the club organiser, or her husband, who is attempting to impose it on her.

And yes, it's arguable she could simply ignore the rule and stay in her house while the Men's Club meets. But that could result in ramifications for her husband (he could get chucked out of the club). The LW also mentioned that the club organiser has a lot of social clout in the retirement village. So ignoring the rule might also see the LW shunned socially.
No I'm not saying she should ignore the rule. That would be very rude in my opinion to the members of the group. I'm saying she can't request the rule be changed. And the rule only effects her because her husband joined the club. This is between her and her husband. Not her and the club organizer.

So it's rude for her to ignore the rule, but also rude for her to ask that the rule be changed? So what exactly is the LW supposed to do? Suck it up and comply, even though she had no say in making it?
Tell her spouse who chose to join the club "this is unacceptable"   and/or as a member he has standing to say "I don't like this rule."

Blaming the organizer is blaming the wrong person.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: Tabby Uprising on February 09, 2014, 08:56:46 PM


I disagree. The rule IS affecting her, regardless of whether it's the club organiser, or her husband, who is attempting to impose it on her.

And yes, it's arguable she could simply ignore the rule and stay in her house while the Men's Club meets. But that could result in ramifications for her husband (he could get chucked out of the club). The LW also mentioned that the club organiser has a lot of social clout in the retirement village. So ignoring the rule might also see the LW shunned socially.
No I'm not saying she should ignore the rule. That would be very rude in my opinion to the members of the group. I'm saying she can't request the rule be changed. And the rule only effects her because her husband joined the club. This is between her and her husband. Not her and the club organizer.

So it's rude for her to ignore the rule, but also rude for her to ask that the rule be changed? So what exactly is the LW supposed to do? Suck it up and comply, even though she had no say in making it?

Trimmed things a bit.

What the LW is supposed to do is tell her husband she won't leave her home for these meetings.  She'll give her reasons why.  He'll give the reasons why he wants to be in the club and between the two of them they'll have to hash out a solution.  There's no need for them to address the club organizer about this. 

That's why I think it's a relationship issue.  No one is forcing the LW's husband to join the club.  It's a choice and if aspects of the club upset the wife then they must discuss that as a couple.  The LW needs to decide if this is a hill to die on for her.  The husband needs to decide if it's a hill for him.  There are certainly choices that include the LW sucking it up because it's important to her husband, her husband declining to join the club, or even the husband starting an alternative club without those rules. 
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: gellchom on February 09, 2014, 10:38:52 PM
Quote
So it's rude for her to ignore the rule, but also rude for her to ask that the rule be changed? So what exactly is the LW supposed to do? Suck it up and comply, even though she had no say in making it?

As others have said, what she is supposed to do is to discuss with her husband her discomfort -- and I'm not saying it's unreasonable, even though I wouldn't find it more than a minor inconvenience -- that his membership in this club requires her to leave the house on the evenings he hosts.  Then they can decide whether (1) he will quit (2) she will accommodate or (3) he will ask if the rule can be changed.

But the problem is that her husband is doing something that bothers her, not that the club rules are rude or unfair to her.

Otherwise, it's like saying that no clubs may ever exist that have any rules or requirements that affect any non-members.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: lowspark on February 10, 2014, 08:19:25 AM
I agree that this really is between the husband and wife. I get the feeling that the husband doesn't want to quit but the wife is pressuring him to and is looking for support from Dear Abby.

What the rule is (as has been pointed out by PPs) is not so much the issue. The issue is that it's a rule the wife doesn't like.

The rule happens to be that she has to leave the house. But it could be dues. Or that the men are going to meet at the bar and she doesn't want her husband drinking. Or that they're going to meet at XYZ restaurant and her husband won't go there when she wants to but here he is going for the club meeting. Etc.

The club has a rule. The husband is a member of the club.
He has three choices:
1. Get everyone in the club to agree to change the rule (if he either agrees that the rule is bad or just is trying to appease the wife)2. Abide by the rule (meaning he has to work this out with his wife)
3. Quit the club (which I think is exactly what the wife wants him to do)

Even if he attempts #1, if he's unsuccessful, he'll still be stuck with either #2 or #3.

What he (and the wife) cannot do (or should not do) is go against the rules by having her in the house during the meeting without #1 happening first.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: DavidH on February 10, 2014, 06:57:43 PM
This whole issue is a variant on the Bunco thread.  In that case, the rule was that husbands couldn't be in the same room as the club.  Here the wives have to leave the house.  If the person in the club doesn't like the rule, for any reason including their wife doesn't like it, then they can suggest it be changed or leave the club. 

The club's rules aren't an etiquette issue in and of them-self.  I get that there are people for whom having to leave their house would be a major issue.  In that case their housemates shouldn't join a club with rules to that effect.  It doesn't make a club having that rule a bad thing or mean that no club should exist with those rules. 
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: LifeOnPluto on February 10, 2014, 08:20:45 PM
Quote
So it's rude for her to ignore the rule, but also rude for her to ask that the rule be changed? So what exactly is the LW supposed to do? Suck it up and comply, even though she had no say in making it?

As others have said, what she is supposed to do is to discuss with her husband her discomfort -- and I'm not saying it's unreasonable, even though I wouldn't find it more than a minor inconvenience -- that his membership in this club requires her to leave the house on the evenings he hosts.  Then they can decide whether (1) he will quit (2) she will accommodate or (3) he will ask if the rule can be changed.

But the problem is that her husband is doing something that bothers her, not that the club rules are rude or unfair to her.

Otherwise, it's like saying that no clubs may ever exist that have any rules or requirements that affect any non-members.

I agree she should absolutely do this. But what the husband refuses? What if he tells her "Too bad, I like this club. The guys are coming over at 6pm. Make yourself scarce."

Is it still rude if she ignores the rule in this instance?
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: KenveeB on February 10, 2014, 08:25:28 PM
Quote
So it's rude for her to ignore the rule, but also rude for her to ask that the rule be changed? So what exactly is the LW supposed to do? Suck it up and comply, even though she had no say in making it?

As others have said, what she is supposed to do is to discuss with her husband her discomfort -- and I'm not saying it's unreasonable, even though I wouldn't find it more than a minor inconvenience -- that his membership in this club requires her to leave the house on the evenings he hosts.  Then they can decide whether (1) he will quit (2) she will accommodate or (3) he will ask if the rule can be changed.

But the problem is that her husband is doing something that bothers her, not that the club rules are rude or unfair to her.

Otherwise, it's like saying that no clubs may ever exist that have any rules or requirements that affect any non-members.

I agree she should absolutely do this. But what the husband refuses? What if he tells her "Too bad, I like this club. The guys are coming over at 6pm. Make yourself scarce."

Is it still rude if she ignores the rule in this instance?

Yes. Her problem there is with her husband, and she needs to work it out with him. Turning the innocent club members into victims of their marital power struggle is rude.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: Tabby Uprising on February 10, 2014, 09:42:17 PM
Quote
So it's rude for her to ignore the rule, but also rude for her to ask that the rule be changed? So what exactly is the LW supposed to do? Suck it up and comply, even though she had no say in making it?

As others have said, what she is supposed to do is to discuss with her husband her discomfort -- and I'm not saying it's unreasonable, even though I wouldn't find it more than a minor inconvenience -- that his membership in this club requires her to leave the house on the evenings he hosts.  Then they can decide whether (1) he will quit (2) she will accommodate or (3) he will ask if the rule can be changed.

But the problem is that her husband is doing something that bothers her, not that the club rules are rude or unfair to her.

Otherwise, it's like saying that no clubs may ever exist that have any rules or requirements that affect any non-members.

I agree she should absolutely do this. But what the husband refuses? What if he tells her "Too bad, I like this club. The guys are coming over at 6pm. Make yourself scarce."

Is it still rude if she ignores the rule in this instance?

You know, I don't think she is.  I think her husband would be rude for knowingly hosting the group when he couldn't abide by the rules.  If he knows his wife doesn't want to leave the house, knows she won't leave the house, but hosts anyway then I think he is the one being rude to the group.

Now, if the wife is openly hostile while the group is there, she would be rude.  If she pushed into their conversation, yelled at her husband, stomped around, made passive aggressive remarks, etc. she'd be rude. 


Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: lowspark on February 11, 2014, 07:55:21 AM
This whole issue is a variant on the Bunco thread.  In that case, the rule was that husbands couldn't be in the same room as the club.  Here the wives have to leave the house.  If the person in the club doesn't like the rule, for any reason including their wife doesn't like it, then they can suggest it be changed or leave the club. 

The club's rules aren't an etiquette issue in and of them-self.  I get that there are people for whom having to leave their house would be a major issue.  In that case their housemates shouldn't join a club with rules to that effect.  It doesn't make a club having that rule a bad thing or mean that no club should exist with those rules.

Exactly.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: lowspark on February 11, 2014, 08:04:19 AM
Quote
So it's rude for her to ignore the rule, but also rude for her to ask that the rule be changed? So what exactly is the LW supposed to do? Suck it up and comply, even though she had no say in making it?

As others have said, what she is supposed to do is to discuss with her husband her discomfort -- and I'm not saying it's unreasonable, even though I wouldn't find it more than a minor inconvenience -- that his membership in this club requires her to leave the house on the evenings he hosts.  Then they can decide whether (1) he will quit (2) she will accommodate or (3) he will ask if the rule can be changed.

But the problem is that her husband is doing something that bothers her, not that the club rules are rude or unfair to her.

Otherwise, it's like saying that no clubs may ever exist that have any rules or requirements that affect any non-members.

I agree she should absolutely do this. But what the husband refuses? What if he tells her "Too bad, I like this club. The guys are coming over at 6pm. Make yourself scarce."

Is it still rude if she ignores the rule in this instance?

I think both of them are rude. In the case of the bunco situation, Amy (the member of the bunco club) was rude for having her husband there when she knew he wasn't supposed to be there. The husband was rude for hanging around when he also clearly knew he didn't belong.

Now, in the case of Amy, I kinda wondered if hubby had just decided that day to not clear out, or if she'd just told him that day and he'd said no. In other words, if it all sort of played out at the last minute and there she was with 11 women coming over and a husband who wouldn't budge.

But if she'd come home from her first bunco meeting, six months earlier, and said to hubby, when it's my turn to host you'll have to clear out and he'd said, "uh-uh, not gonna happen" then both of them were rude for going against the club's established norms.

And by the same token, in the case of the Dear Abby letter, both the husband and wife know the rules. It's up to them to work out if they can or cannot abide by them. If they cannot, then husband needs to let the club know. They can agree he doesn't have to host. Or they can agree that they'll make an exception when he does host. Or they can not agree to any of that and he'll need to drop out. But deliberately flouting the club's rules is rude, regardless of the reason.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: Hmmmmm on February 11, 2014, 11:10:30 AM
Quote
So it's rude for her to ignore the rule, but also rude for her to ask that the rule be changed? So what exactly is the LW supposed to do? Suck it up and comply, even though she had no say in making it?

As others have said, what she is supposed to do is to discuss with her husband her discomfort -- and I'm not saying it's unreasonable, even though I wouldn't find it more than a minor inconvenience -- that his membership in this club requires her to leave the house on the evenings he hosts.  Then they can decide whether (1) he will quit (2) she will accommodate or (3) he will ask if the rule can be changed.

But the problem is that her husband is doing something that bothers her, not that the club rules are rude or unfair to her.

Otherwise, it's like saying that no clubs may ever exist that have any rules or requirements that affect any non-members.

I agree she should absolutely do this. But what the husband refuses? What if he tells her "Too bad, I like this club. The guys are coming over at 6pm. Make yourself scarce."

Is it still rude if she ignores the rule in this instance?

If the husband knows he can not follow the rules of the club for what ever reason he should resign. Having the members attend at his home and not following the rules is rude on his part. And if the reason he can't follow the rules is because his wife won't leave then that is a relationship issue amongst them.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: gellchom on February 11, 2014, 01:32:28 PM
To answer you, LifeOnPluto, I agree with the majority: if her husband does not quit the club, then when it is his turn to host, yes, she would be rude not to leave. 

And her husband would be rude to the club if he agreed to let her stay.

Lowspark's post analogizing to the Bunco string is perfect.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: turnip on February 11, 2014, 01:43:59 PM
To answer you, LifeOnPluto, I agree with the majority: if her husband does not quit the club, then when it is his turn to host, yes, she would be rude not to leave. 

And her husband would be rude to the club if he agreed to let her stay.

Lowspark's post analogizing to the Bunco string is perfect.

I simply don't think she can be rude for not doing something she never agreed to do.  If my husband signs me up for things without my approval or consent, then I'm not going to do them.   Let him refuse to host or find a clubhouse or something - it is just not on her.

 There may be marital repercussions, of course, but we're just discussing rudeness.  It is not rude to be in your home, and it is not rude to be in your home even if someone else has guaranteed that you will not be there.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: TurtleDove on February 11, 2014, 01:51:06 PM
To answer you, LifeOnPluto, I agree with the majority: if her husband does not quit the club, then when it is his turn to host, yes, she would be rude not to leave. 

And her husband would be rude to the club if he agreed to let her stay.

Lowspark's post analogizing to the Bunco string is perfect.

I simply don't think she can be rude for not doing something she never agreed to do.  If my husband signs me up for things without my approval or consent, then I'm not going to do them.   Let him refuse to host or find a clubhouse or something - it is just not on her.

 There may be marital repercussions, of course, but we're just discussing rudeness.  It is not rude to be in your home, and it is not rude to be in your home even if someone else has guaranteed that you will not be there.

This is why this is a marital issue and not an etiquette issue.  Because it does not reflect well on the DH to defy the rules he agree do in joining the club, and that is what the wife is insisting he do by refusing to vacate the house during the club meeting.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: Vall on February 11, 2014, 01:53:01 PM
To answer you, LifeOnPluto, I agree with the majority: if her husband does not quit the club, then when it is his turn to host, yes, she would be rude not to leave. 

And her husband would be rude to the club if he agreed to let her stay.

Lowspark's post analogizing to the Bunco string is perfect.

I simply don't think she can be rude for not doing something she never agreed to do.  If my husband signs me up for things without my approval or consent, then I'm not going to do them.   Let him refuse to host or find a clubhouse or something - it is just not on her.

 There may be marital repercussions, of course, but we're just discussing rudeness.  It is not rude to be in your home, and it is not rude to be in your home even if someone else has guaranteed that you will not be there.
I don't think it would be rude of the wife if she were to let the club know with plenty of notice that it wasn't going to be possible for her to leave their home when her husband hosts.  That way, the club can make an informed decision about whether to let her husband host or whether they even want to keep him as a member.  After informing the club first, I don't think she would be rude to stay.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: TurtleDove on February 11, 2014, 01:55:57 PM
I don't think it would be rude of the wife if she were to let the club know with plenty of notice that it wasn't going to be possible for her to leave their home when her husband hosts.  That way, the club can make an informed decision about whether to let her husband host or whether they even want to keep him as a member.  After informing the club first, I don't think she would be rude to stay.

I think it would be rude to involve the club in a marital issue.  This should be handled by the husband - either he works it out with his wife, or he works it out with the club, but the wife should not be going to the club on behalf of her husband. 
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: eee on February 11, 2014, 01:57:58 PM
To answer you, LifeOnPluto, I agree with the majority: if her husband does not quit the club, then when it is his turn to host, yes, she would be rude not to leave. 

And her husband would be rude to the club if he agreed to let her stay.

Lowspark's post analogizing to the Bunco string is perfect.

I simply don't think she can be rude for not doing something she never agreed to do.  If my husband signs me up for things without my approval or consent, then I'm not going to do them.   Let him refuse to host or find a clubhouse or something - it is just not on her.

 There may be marital repercussions, of course, but we're just discussing rudeness.  It is not rude to be in your home, and it is not rude to be in your home even if someone else has guaranteed that you will not be there.

I agree with you. It's the husband's problem if he's promised the club his wife will do something she has not agreed to do. If someone suggested I was rude for being in my own house I'd laugh in their face.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: Delete My Account on February 11, 2014, 02:00:36 PM
To answer you, LifeOnPluto, I agree with the majority: if her husband does not quit the club, then when it is his turn to host, yes, she would be rude not to leave. 

And her husband would be rude to the club if he agreed to let her stay.

Lowspark's post analogizing to the Bunco string is perfect.

I simply don't think she can be rude for not doing something she never agreed to do.  If my husband signs me up for things without my approval or consent, then I'm not going to do them.   Let him refuse to host or find a clubhouse or something - it is just not on her.

 There may be marital repercussions, of course, but we're just discussing rudeness.  It is not rude to be in your home, and it is not rude to be in your home even if someone else has guaranteed that you will not be there.

Exactly. Why does the club rules trump the wife's right to be in her own home? They're not paying the mortgage, so IMO they have no say. If it's that important to them to have "no skirts", as they so charmingly put it, then I agree - it's on them to find another location. I'm baffled as to why the wife should comply to being kicked out of her own home because it's the club rules.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: Vall on February 11, 2014, 02:06:36 PM
I don't think it would be rude of the wife if she were to let the club know with plenty of notice that it wasn't going to be possible for her to leave their home when her husband hosts.  That way, the club can make an informed decision about whether to let her husband host or whether they even want to keep him as a member.  After informing the club first, I don't think she would be rude to stay.

I think it would be rude to involve the club in a marital issue.  This should be handled by the husband - either he works it out with his wife, or he works it out with the club, but the wife should not be going to the club on behalf of her husband.
I absolutely agree that it should be handled by the husband.  But if he chooses not to inform the club prior to his hosting that his wife will be there, I think it would be polite for her to give them a heads up.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: Tabby Uprising on February 11, 2014, 02:22:57 PM
I thought an important distinction between the bunco situation and this one was that the husbands and children of the bunco members were only to make themselves scarce and not actually vacate the house.  It was reiterated throughout that thread that the husband was perceived to be rude because he inserted himself into the group, not because he didn't vacate the house entirely.

That's a big distinction to me, "giving space" vs. "being gone". 

So yes, if you want to be in the club you must accept (or vote to change) the group rules.  If the wife does not want to literally vacate her house, tells her husband and is ignored then certainly that's a relationship issue.  At the same time though, if the husband ignores her and hosts the group anyway, he's knowingly breaking their rules. 

It's messy for the group if it comes to that sure, but I can't call someone rude for not wanting to leave their own home when they made that desire known to their spouse. It's a huge overreach of etiquette (in my opinion) to say this wife would be rude for not leaving her home when she made her needs clear.  Her needs, even if ignored by her husband, trump guest comfort in this situation.

If my husband joined a group that mandated wives babysit children of the other members on their host night, I'd say "no way".  I wouldn't do it.  Full stop.  If he goes ahead and joins the group, hosts an evening at our house, I am not rude for not babysitting the other member children. 
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: pierrotlunaire0 on February 11, 2014, 02:25:14 PM
To answer you, LifeOnPluto, I agree with the majority: if her husband does not quit the club, then when it is his turn to host, yes, she would be rude not to leave. 

And her husband would be rude to the club if he agreed to let her stay.

Lowspark's post analogizing to the Bunco string is perfect.

I simply don't think she can be rude for not doing something she never agreed to do.  If my husband signs me up for things without my approval or consent, then I'm not going to do them.   Let him refuse to host or find a clubhouse or something - it is just not on her.

 There may be marital repercussions, of course, but we're just discussing rudeness.  It is not rude to be in your home, and it is not rude to be in your home even if someone else has guaranteed that you will not be there.

Exactly. Why does the club rules trump the wife's right to be in her own home? They're not paying the mortgage, so IMO they have no say. If it's that important to them to have "no skirts", as they so charmingly put it, then I agree - it's on them to find another location. I'm baffled as to why the wife should comply to being kicked out of her own home because it's the club rules.

I think it keeps coming back to the spouse (here husband) that belongs to the club.  If the husband wants to belong to the club, and if he agrees to abide by club rules, then that is why the club's rules trump the wife's.  Does he have the right as co-owner to strip her of her rights?  No, but that is why this really is no longer an etiquette issue, but a relationship one.  Now maybe the husband is waffling, and pretending that this has absolutely nothing to do with him, when it has everything to do with him.  The club is a decoy, and the husband needs to decide: which is more important -- kicking my wife out of her home, or hanging with my friends?
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: Delete My Account on February 11, 2014, 02:29:51 PM
To answer you, LifeOnPluto, I agree with the majority: if her husband does not quit the club, then when it is his turn to host, yes, she would be rude not to leave. 

And her husband would be rude to the club if he agreed to let her stay.

Lowspark's post analogizing to the Bunco string is perfect.

I simply don't think she can be rude for not doing something she never agreed to do.  If my husband signs me up for things without my approval or consent, then I'm not going to do them.   Let him refuse to host or find a clubhouse or something - it is just not on her.

 There may be marital repercussions, of course, but we're just discussing rudeness.  It is not rude to be in your home, and it is not rude to be in your home even if someone else has guaranteed that you will not be there.

Exactly. Why does the club rules trump the wife's right to be in her own home? They're not paying the mortgage, so IMO they have no say. If it's that important to them to have "no skirts", as they so charmingly put it, then I agree - it's on them to find another location. I'm baffled as to why the wife should comply to being kicked out of her own home because it's the club rules.

I think it keeps coming back to the spouse (here husband) that belongs to the club.  If the husband wants to belong to the club, and if he agrees to abide by club rules, then that is why the club's rules trump the wife's.

Except the club's rules interfere with her right to be on her own property. And that's where the etiquette breach lies. The club, IMO, does not have the right to tell the wife to leave her own home because of their rules. They don't own the house.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: TurtleDove on February 11, 2014, 02:40:15 PM
Except the club's rules interfere with her right to be on her own property. And that's where the etiquette breach lies. The club, IMO, does not have the right to tell the wife to leave her own home because of their rules. They don't own the house.

What you are missing is that the husband *does* own the house and he has invited the club into his house. THe club is not doing anything wrong.  If anyone is, it is the husband.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: pierrotlunaire0 on February 11, 2014, 02:41:53 PM
Except the club's rules interfere with her right to be on her own property. And that's where the etiquette breach lies. The club, IMO, does not have the right to tell the wife to leave her own home because of their rules. They don't own the house.

What you are missing is that the husband *does* own the house and he has invited the club into his house. THe club is not doing anything wrong.  If anyone is, it is the husband.

I totally agree with Turtledove. 
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: Tabby Uprising on February 11, 2014, 02:44:02 PM
To answer you, LifeOnPluto, I agree with the majority: if her husband does not quit the club, then when it is his turn to host, yes, she would be rude not to leave. 

And her husband would be rude to the club if he agreed to let her stay.

Lowspark's post analogizing to the Bunco string is perfect.

I simply don't think she can be rude for not doing something she never agreed to do.  If my husband signs me up for things without my approval or consent, then I'm not going to do them.   Let him refuse to host or find a clubhouse or something - it is just not on her.

 There may be marital repercussions, of course, but we're just discussing rudeness.  It is not rude to be in your home, and it is not rude to be in your home even if someone else has guaranteed that you will not be there.

Exactly. Why does the club rules trump the wife's right to be in her own home? They're not paying the mortgage, so IMO they have no say. If it's that important to them to have "no skirts", as they so charmingly put it, then I agree - it's on them to find another location. I'm baffled as to why the wife should comply to being kicked out of her own home because it's the club rules.

I think it keeps coming back to the spouse (here husband) that belongs to the club.  If the husband wants to belong to the club, and if he agrees to abide by club rules, then that is why the club's rules trump the wife's.  Does he have the right as co-owner to strip her of her rights?  No, but that is why this really is no longer an etiquette issue, but a relationship one.  Now maybe the husband is waffling, and pretending that this has absolutely nothing to do with him, when it has everything to do with him.  The club is a decoy, and the husband needs to decide: which is more important -- kicking my wife out of her home, or hanging with my friends?

I disagree with that.  Both member and non-member are impacted by this rule and both need to consent.  If one spouse doesn't consent her needs aren't automatically usurped by the club.  Why would they?  She didn't agree to it. Her husband ignored her needs and flaunted club rules.  If the members are annoyed by this, it's on him not her. 

Having to leave one's own home is a big request.  Whether it's reasonable or not comes down to an individual basis, but it's a big request. It really needs consent of both partners and I can't agree that one partner is rude to stay in their own home when they made it known from the start they would do so.  Being in one's own home is such a fundamental thing. If you want to be in your home, how can that be usurped by anyone else who doesn't live there?

The club isn't doing anything wrong by having the rule or by coming to the house.  But she is not doing anything wrong by being in her own home when that's the stance she had from the start.  It doesn't make her rude. 

Blah, I can't get my thoughts around expressing it properly! 
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: TurtleDove on February 11, 2014, 02:48:00 PM
I think the disconnect is that some people are making this a situation of either the wife or the club is rude.  The club absolutely is not rude for expecting the rules to be followed.  If the wife goes to the club to complain, she is rude because this is something she needs to work out with her husband, not with the club.  This is a relationship issue, not an etiquette issue or "are the club's rules fair" issue.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: Delete My Account on February 11, 2014, 02:49:28 PM
If you want to be in your home, how can that be usurped by anyone else who doesn't live there?

This is my exact problem with this situation.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: TurtleDove on February 11, 2014, 02:53:27 PM
If you want to be in your home, how can that be usurped by anyone else who doesn't live there?

This is my exact problem with this situation.

Because the DH has told the club it is okay.  The DH lives in the house and has invited a club to that house knowing that the club rules are that his wife is not to be present.  That is why.  That is why some/most of us are saying this is a relationship issue between the husband and wife and has little or nothing to do with the club.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: Delete My Account on February 11, 2014, 02:57:46 PM
If you want to be in your home, how can that be usurped by anyone else who doesn't live there?

This is my exact problem with this situation.

Because the DH has told the club it is okay.  The DH lives in the house and has invited a club to that house knowing that the club rules are that his wife is not to be present.  That is why.  That is why some/most of us are saying this is a relationship issue between the husband and wife and has little or nothing to do with the club.

I understand that. I just disagree that it's purely a relationship issue, and that's why most of my posts on this issue have included the disclaimer "IMO".
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: gellchom on February 11, 2014, 03:04:16 PM
You could make exactly the same argument that she wouldn't be rude to come along uninvited if the group met at a restaurant -- on the ground that someone not part of the marriage "has no right to usurp" her sacred marital right to be at her husband's side.

The club isn't telling her to leave the house.  Her husband is.  The club hasn't told her anything. If anyone is "usurping her rights," he is.  (As to the club's rules "interfering with her right to be on her own property" -- well, how is that different from the Bunco situation?  Isn't the kitchen or the living room "her own property" too?)

He's telling her that because he belongs to a club that requires him to provide an empty house when it's his turn to host.  But he is the one telling her, not them.  Maybe he is rude to do that; it just depends on their feelings about it.

She is rude to both her husband and the club if she insists on staying.  She may be completely justified in being angry at being placed in a situation where she either has to clear out or be rude.  Suppose instead he had invited dinner guests without asking her first; she'd certainly be justified in being annoyed at that, but she'd still be rude if she refused to speak to them during dinner or flip on loud music or start doing yoga in the middle of the living room while they are conversing there on the grounds that she has the right to do what she likes in her own home.  Justifiable annoyance at your spouse isn't a license to be rude to others. 

What this comes down to is whether it is okay for a spouse to ask the other spouse to clear out of all or part of the house during a members-only meeting of a private group that requires it of its members when it's their turn to host.  For some families, it is okay; for others, it's not.  For the latter, if their family will not cooperate, then that's not the club for them.

But that doesn't make it wrong for such groups or such rules to exist.  The LW is trying to win her disagreement with her husband by turning it into an objective, one-size-fits-all etiquette matter, and it just isn't.

Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: Tabby Uprising on February 11, 2014, 03:20:48 PM
If you (general) are saying she's rude to be at the house when the club is visiting then you are saying in order to be polite she must leave her own home against her will.  I think that's an unreasonable request of etiquette.

It doesn't matter if it's a club issue or a relationship issue or a husband issue.  I'm not rude for not leaving my home against my own will. 
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: Tabby Uprising on February 11, 2014, 03:25:51 PM
You could make exactly the same argument that she wouldn't be rude to come along uninvited if the group met at a restaurant -- on the ground that someone not part of the marriage "has no right to usurp" her sacred marital right to be at her husband's side.

The club isn't telling her to leave the house.  Her husband is.  The club hasn't told her anything. If anyone is "usurping her rights," he is.  (As to the club's rules "interfering with her right to be on her own property" -- well, how is that different from the Bunco situation?  Isn't the kitchen or the living room "her own property" too?)

He's telling her that because he belongs to a club that requires him to provide an empty house when it's his turn to host.  But he is the one telling her, not them.  Maybe he is rude to do that; it just depends on their feelings about it.

She is rude to both her husband and the club if she insists on staying. She may be completely justified in being angry at being placed in a situation where she either has to clear out or be rude.  Suppose instead he had invited dinner guests without asking her first; she'd certainly be justified in being annoyed at that, but she'd still be rude if she refused to speak to them during dinner or flip on loud music or start doing yoga in the middle of the living room while they are conversing there on the grounds that she has the right to do what she likes in her own home.  Justifiable annoyance at your spouse isn't a license to be rude to others. 

What this comes down to is whether it is okay for a spouse to ask the other spouse to clear out of all or part of the house during a members-only meeting of a private group that requires it of its members when it's their turn to host.  For some families, it is okay; for others, it's not.  For the latter, if their family will not cooperate, then that's not the club for them.

But that doesn't make it wrong for such groups or such rules to exist.  The LW is trying to win her disagreement with her husband by turning it into an objective, one-size-fits-all etiquette matter, and it just isn't.

Regarding the bolded:  I think there's a huge difference between talking to dinner guests, tidying your home, flipping on loud music and being told to completely vacate your house.  Those other items kind of fall under standard etiquette in most areas.  It's a reasonable accommodation.  But leaving my home against my will in order to meet the needs of etiquette?  I don't see it.  It asks too much.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: TootsNYC on February 11, 2014, 03:27:33 PM
Then you tell your husband he has to quit the club.
Or you stay, and tell your husband he has to quit the club.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: TurtleDove on February 11, 2014, 03:30:18 PM
Regarding the bolded:  I think there's a huge difference between talking to dinner guests, tidying your home, flipping on loud music and being told to completely vacate your house.  Those other items kind of fall under standard etiquette in most areas.  It's a reasonable accommodation.  But leaving my home against my will in order to meet the needs of etiquette?  I don't see it.  It asks too much.

No.  The wife would be vacating the house at her husband's request.  If she does not want to do that, she needs to take that up with the husband.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: Tabby Uprising on February 11, 2014, 03:33:11 PM
Then you tell your husband he has to quit the club.
Or you stay, and tell your husband he has to quit the club.

Oh, I don't disagree with that at all. But staying doesn't  make me rude.  That's my point of contention.  As stated in my previous posts, I don't think the club or the rule itself is rude.  I'm explicitly addressing the idea that if the wife stays (after expressing her wishes to her husband) in her own home she's rude.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: TootsNYC on February 11, 2014, 03:43:37 PM
Then you tell your husband he has to quit the club.
Or you stay, and tell your husband he has to quit the club.

Oh, I don't disagree with that at all. But staying doesn't  make me rude.  That's my point of contention.  As stated in my previous posts, I don't think the club or the rule itself is rude.  I'm explicitly addressing the idea that if the wife stays (after expressing her wishes to her husband) in her own home she's rude.

I agree, I don't think she's rude. But her husband is.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: lollylegs on February 11, 2014, 03:44:50 PM
I think there were two instances of rudeness: the husband, by asking his wife to leave when it obviously upsets her, and the organiser for making the rule in the first place. I don't think 'well the husbands knew and they joined anyway' cancels it out because it was a rude rule to make in the first place. Suppose the rule was, we go out to a non-smoking restaurant and smoke cigars. Yes, the people who willingly participate are rude, but so is the person who set the rule.

Unless you're helping me pay my mortgage, you do not get to ask tell me to leave my house.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: gellchom on February 11, 2014, 03:46:47 PM
If she stays, is the club rude for excluding her from the conversation in her own home?

I think language like "banishment" and "forced to leave her own home against her will" is a little overwrought for this situation.  Her husband wants to have the house for a couple of hours.  I agree that she doesn't have to agree to that if she doesn't want to, but it really isn't asking very much. 

(Personally, I'd be a lot less put off by a request to go out and do whatever I want for two or three hours once every few months than by something like having to feed and socialize with unexpected guests I'm not interested in with no notice.)

Maybe he could request to host on a night she's busy or out of town anyway.  I have a feeling that wouldn't satisfy her, though. 

Let me ask you: suppose there wasn't any "empty house" rule, just a rule that each member must take a turn hosting, and she just doesn't want any club meetings in the house -- maybe she fears mess or she's just very anxious or whatever.  Is this rule unfair to her?  It encroaches upon her right to enjoy her own home, and she didn't have any say in it, and they aren't helping pay the mortgage.  My answer is the same: there is nothing wrong with the rule.  The issue is between the spouses: they have conflicting desires, and they need to work it out.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: TurtleDove on February 11, 2014, 03:47:19 PM
I think there were two instances of rudeness: the husband, by asking his wife to leave when it obviously upsets her, and the organiser for making the rule in the first place. I don't think 'well the husbands knew and they joined anyway' cancels it out because it was a rude rule to make in the first place. Suppose the rule was, we go out to a non-smoking restaurant and smoke cigars. Yes, the people who willingly participate are rude, but so is the person who set the rule.

Unless you're helping me pay my mortgage, you do not get to ask tell me to leave my house.

I disagree with your reasoning and conclusions, mostly because the person asking the wife to leave the house *does* help her pay the mortgage.   I don't think the cigar smoking in a restaurant is at all similar either, FWIW.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: Delete My Account on February 11, 2014, 03:51:07 PM
I think there were two instances of rudeness: the husband, by asking his wife to leave when it obviously upsets her, and the organiser for making the rule in the first place. I don't think 'well the husbands knew and they joined anyway' cancels it out because it was a rude rule to make in the first place. Suppose the rule was, we go out to a non-smoking restaurant and smoke cigars. Yes, the people who willingly participate are rude, but so is the person who set the rule.

Unless you're helping me pay my mortgage, you do not get to ask tell me to leave my house.

I disagree with your reasoning and conclusions, mostly because the person asking the wife to leave the house *does* help her pay the mortgage.

Yes, but the rest of the club does not. And the club is the one who made the rule - not the husband. And therein lies the problem, and why I believe in my opinion, that it is not solely a relationship issue, but poor etiquette on the part of the club.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: TurtleDove on February 11, 2014, 03:55:28 PM
I think there were two instances of rudeness: the husband, by asking his wife to leave when it obviously upsets her, and the organiser for making the rule in the first place. I don't think 'well the husbands knew and they joined anyway' cancels it out because it was a rude rule to make in the first place. Suppose the rule was, we go out to a non-smoking restaurant and smoke cigars. Yes, the people who willingly participate are rude, but so is the person who set the rule.

Unless you're helping me pay my mortgage, you do not get to ask tell me to leave my house.

I disagree with your reasoning and conclusions, mostly because the person asking the wife to leave the house *does* help her pay the mortgage.

Yes, but the rest of the club does not. And the club is the one who made the rule - not the husband. And therein lies the problem, and why I believe in my opinion, that it is not solely a relationship issue, but poor etiquette on the part of the club.

Ah.  Then we will never agree.  I see absolutely nothing wrong with the club's rule and would gladly vacate my home to allow my spouse some man time.  I would expect my DH to do the same for me if I asked him to (and he would). I don't see the rule as an etiquette issue at all. It is a rule you do not approve of, but I don't think it is at all a breach of etiquette to have the rule. 
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: lollylegs on February 11, 2014, 03:59:22 PM
I think there were two instances of rudeness: the husband, by asking his wife to leave when it obviously upsets her, and the organiser for making the rule in the first place. I don't think 'well the husbands knew and they joined anyway' cancels it out because it was a rude rule to make in the first place. Suppose the rule was, we go out to a non-smoking restaurant and smoke cigars. Yes, the people who willingly participate are rude, but so is the person who set the rule.

Unless you're helping me pay my mortgage, you do not get to ask tell me to leave my house.

I disagree with your reasoning and conclusions, mostly because the person asking the wife to leave the house *does* help her pay the mortgage.   I don't think the cigar smoking in a restaurant is at all similar either, FWIW.

The person helping her to pay the mortgage is asking because someone who isn't said that's what he had to do to join the club. That's why I think that two people are being rude.

The cigar smoking isn't a perfect comparison but my point is that the person giving the order is as rude as the people complying with it.

I think there were two instances of rudeness: the husband, by asking his wife to leave when it obviously upsets her, and the organiser for making the rule in the first place. I don't think 'well the husbands knew and they joined anyway' cancels it out because it was a rude rule to make in the first place. Suppose the rule was, we go out to a non-smoking restaurant and smoke cigars. Yes, the people who willingly participate are rude, but so is the person who set the rule.

Unless you're helping me pay my mortgage, you do not get to ask tell me to leave my house.

I disagree with your reasoning and conclusions, mostly because the person asking the wife to leave the house *does* help her pay the mortgage.

Yes, but the rest of the club does not. And the club is the one who made the rule - not the husband. And therein lies the problem, and why I believe in my opinion, that it is not solely a relationship issue, but poor etiquette on the part of the club.

Ah.  Then we will never agree.  I see absolutely nothing wrong with the club's rule and would gladly vacate my home to allow my spouse some man time.  I would expect my DH to do the same for me if I asked him to (and he would). I don't see the rule as an etiquette issue at all.

I don't think you can say that it's universally not rude because you personally wouldn't mind. I actually like it when people include their registry information in their wedding invitation but I'm not going to argue that it's not an etiquette blunder.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: Mikayla on February 11, 2014, 03:59:49 PM
I have a question for people saying that the club was rude to have this rule and the husband is rude for making the request to his wife.  What if the rule was the opposite?  IOW, instead of leaving the home, the wives were expected to cook and serve a 5 course formal dinner? 

This isn't a trap question.  I'm trying to figure out why a subjective term like "unreasonable" is being equated to an etiquette term like "rude". 

Obviously, I'm one who thinks this is 100 percent a relationship issue.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: Delete My Account on February 11, 2014, 04:01:05 PM
I think there were two instances of rudeness: the husband, by asking his wife to leave when it obviously upsets her, and the organiser for making the rule in the first place. I don't think 'well the husbands knew and they joined anyway' cancels it out because it was a rude rule to make in the first place. Suppose the rule was, we go out to a non-smoking restaurant and smoke cigars. Yes, the people who willingly participate are rude, but so is the person who set the rule.

Unless you're helping me pay my mortgage, you do not get to ask tell me to leave my house.

I disagree with your reasoning and conclusions, mostly because the person asking the wife to leave the house *does* help her pay the mortgage.

Yes, but the rest of the club does not. And the club is the one who made the rule - not the husband. And therein lies the problem, and why I believe in my opinion, that it is not solely a relationship issue, but poor etiquette on the part of the club.

Ah.  Then we will never agree.  I see absolutely nothing wrong with the club's rule and would gladly vacate my home to allow my spouse some man time.  I would expect my DH to do the same for me if I asked him to (and he would). I don't see the rule as an etiquette issue at all. It is a rule you do not approve of, but I don't think it is at all a breach of etiquette to have the rule.

Indeed, I think it just boils down to a difference of opinion, because I totally think it's an etiquette breach. I wouldn't have a problem allowing my hypothetical spouse their "man time", I just would have a problem with a rule that has me leaving my own property whether I like it or not.

But you're right: we'll have to agree to disagree.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: lowspark on February 11, 2014, 04:02:04 PM
I think this is one of those cases where we're not going to agree. I can see the point of those who say the wife isn't rude to stay in her own house. I disagree but I understand where you're coming from.

I think the main points (for me) here are:
- club is not rude to require this
- husband needs to work it out with wife
- husband is rude to have the club meeting at his house knowing the wife will be there
- wife may or may not be rude for not vacating, but it's clear that there is an underlying relationship issue that the two of them need to work out.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: shhh its me on February 11, 2014, 04:02:40 PM
  I don't think its black and white. 

IF a spouse used their house for their interests and clubs that required their spouse to be gone 15 hours a week and the spouse asked for the same for 3 hours every 3 months.   I would think the spouse would be rude to both the club and spouse to refuse.

I think the disagreeing spouse has to say "no, I will not be leaving" very clearly they can't say " hmmm  I think this is wrong and I don't like it." thinks to herself " I just wont leave ." and that it must be said in a reasonable time frame or staying would be rude to the club too.

In the what I think would be rare situation* disagreeing spouse says " I will under no circumstances leave. nope no way not going to happen."  and its a consistence and timely  response I think then and only then is only the hosting spouse rude to the club.  That is the same as a host saying " I booked the restaurant for the 100 of us."  and it being a lie the restaurant told host "We are booked solid for that night." 

I don't think disagreeing would be rare but not resolving it for months even if someone is really unhappy with the solution would be rare.

Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: TurtleDove on February 11, 2014, 04:05:04 PM

The person helping her to pay the mortgage is asking because someone who isn't said that's what he had to do to join the club. That's why I think that two people are being rude.


The appropriate thing to do then would be for the husband to not join the club if he does not like the rules.  The fact any random person does not like a rule does not make that rule rude.  No one is forcing the husband to be part of the club. 
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: lollylegs on February 11, 2014, 04:21:08 PM

The person helping her to pay the mortgage is asking because someone who isn't said that's what he had to do to join the club. That's why I think that two people are being rude.


The appropriate thing to do then would be for the husband to not join the club if he does not like the rules.  The fact any random person does not like a rule does not make that rule rude.  No one is forcing the husband to be part of the club. 

Absolutely the husband shouldn't have joined, but the wife isn't some random person. She's someone who is affected by the rule. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree as well cause I don't want to keep repeating that I think the organiser is rude for making a rule about a homeowners presence in their own home and the husband is rude for following it.

And for the record, if my partner came to me and said, "Bob's started a club, the rule is that you can't be here when I host," I'd go along with it. It has nothing to do with not wanting to give my partner 'man time' and everything to do with being annoyed that someone else is making a rule about when I can and can't be in my house (which, yes, my partner would be agreeing to by voluntarily joining the club).

I have a question for people saying that the club was rude to have this rule and the husband is rude for making the request to his wife.  What if the rule was the opposite?  IOW, instead of leaving the home, the wives were expected to cook and serve a 5 course formal dinner? 

This isn't a trap question.  I'm trying to figure out why a subjective term like "unreasonable" is being equated to an etiquette term like "rude". 

Obviously, I'm one who thinks this is 100 percent a relationship issue.

I think that would be equally rude. Like saying to someone, "Let's have dinner. At your house. You cook a five course meal."
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: TootsNYC on February 11, 2014, 04:22:23 PM
I think there were two instances of rudeness: the husband, by asking his wife to leave when it obviously upsets her, and the organiser for making the rule in the first place. I don't think 'well the husbands knew and they joined anyway' cancels it out because it was a rude rule to make in the first place. Suppose the rule was, we go out to a non-smoking restaurant and smoke cigars. Yes, the people who willingly participate are rude, but so is the person who set the rule.

Unless you're helping me pay my mortgage, you do not get to ask tell me to leave my house.

I honestly think the wife is rude to her husband. At the least, very inconsiderate. Seriously, with notice, you can't come up with something to do for the evening that gets you out of the house, so your husband can have an enjoyable evening with the guys? Visit a friend? See a movie? Stay late at work? (frequency would affect this, of course)
   Sure, you may live in the country, far from any other sorts of entertainment options, and far from family and friends. Then, maybe you should go slop the cows or something.
   In this specific woman's case, there are 8 to 12 guys coming over; surely some of them of them have wives whose husbands are out of the house. She's not interested in spending time with any of them?

If I were in her shoes, I'd be inviting a few of the wives over on club night, so that they'd have something to do if they were at loose ends.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: Iris on February 11, 2014, 04:23:22 PM
I have a question for people saying that the club was rude to have this rule and the husband is rude for making the request to his wife.  What if the rule was the opposite?  IOW, instead of leaving the home, the wives were expected to cook and serve a 5 course formal dinner? 

This isn't a trap question.  I'm trying to figure out why a subjective term like "unreasonable" is being equated to an etiquette term like "rude". 

Obviously, I'm one who thinks this is 100 percent a relationship issue.

I like this parallel. The thread is getting very black or white, but I actually think it is a bit of both to be honest. After reading all the replies I will try and summarise my thoughts;

1. The club is not RUDE to make this rule. They can have whatever rule they want. However I think the club is *clueless* and *inconsiderate* to make this rule because it impacts on people that aren't members of the club. It potentially puts the male members of the community in a position where they have to choose between their wife's feelings and joining a club, which in a closed retirement community can be a big deal. I think it would have been BETTER for the club to make other arrangements for their 'man time'.

2. The wife is not rude if she refuses to leave her home. Her husband is not entitled to make promises like that on her behalf. I wouldn't even do that to my children and they DON'T pay the mortgage. Nevertheless it is their home and while I may ask them to make themselves scarce for a while so I can enjoy time with my friends I wouldn't ask them to just leave, childcare issues aside. OTOH if this were important to my husband I would suck it up, but her feelings are not unreasonable.

3. The husband IS rude if he has promised the club a 'wife-free' house without consulting her first. That is a relationship issue, but nonetheless you can be rude to your spouse and it's still rudeness, even if it's ALSO a relationship issue. It's also rude to the other club members if she says "No way" and he doesn't make other arrangements.

Back to Mikayla's post; I have a saying "You can expect whatever you want, but that really doesn't affect me". The club would still not be rude for expecting a 5 course meal, but I suspect they'd be in for a big surprise at many houses. This is why I think it is such a good parallel. They can expect a 5 course meal all they want, but the wives aren't members of the club and their husbands aren't entitled to make those promises on their behalf. In your parallel it would clearly be better to go to a restaurant if they want a 5 course meal cooked by others. Similarly here they are expecting other people to be inconvenienced to provide their men-only time without seeming to realise that they can make all the club rules they want but they can't make rules for people who are NOT members of their club.

In summary, if they have a "no skirts"  ::) club, then "no skirts" are obliged to follow their rules.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: TootsNYC on February 11, 2014, 04:25:55 PM


I have a question for people saying that the club was rude to have this rule and the husband is rude for making the request to his wife.  What if the rule was the opposite?  IOW, instead of leaving the home, the wives were expected to cook and serve a 5 course formal dinner? 

This isn't a trap question.  I'm trying to figure out why a subjective term like "unreasonable" is being equated to an etiquette term like "rude". 

Obviously, I'm one who thinks this is 100 percent a relationship issue.

I think that would be equally rude. Like saying to someone, "Let's have dinner. At your house. You cook a five course meal."

But again--this would be a matter between husband and wife. "I want to join a dinner club, but the way it works is that I have to host people for a five-course meal once every three weeks."  Wife says, "I can't do that, I don't want to do that." It's between the two of them.
   If the husband does not have his spouse's agreement, he's the only rude one. (and boy, is he rude)

And in the situation in the OP, I think the husband is not being rude to his wife, but his wife is being sort of rude to him by not clearly saying, "I resent this, I don't like it, it makes me mad," so that he can make whatever argument that might persuade her, or else cancel his membership in the club. He's the one in the spot of being rude or not being rude.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: Tabby Uprising on February 11, 2014, 04:29:26 PM
Personally, right now I'd loooove it if my husband joined a club with a "no skirts at the house" rule.  We have two kids  >:D  I'd be out of the house so fast his head would spin, even if all I ended up doing was skipping around and around the neighborhood for 3 hours saying, "Wheeeeeeeeeee!" 

I'd make him host at least once a week.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: Delete My Account on February 11, 2014, 04:32:36 PM
'd be out of the house so fast his head would spin, even if all I ended up doing was skipping around and around the neighborhood for 3 hours saying, "Wheeeeeeeeeee!" 

I would pay to see that! :)
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: Hmmmmm on February 11, 2014, 04:50:08 PM
I think there were two instances of rudeness: the husband, by asking his wife to leave when it obviously upsets her, and the organiser for making the rule in the first place. I don't think 'well the husbands knew and they joined anyway' cancels it out because it was a rude rule to make in the first place. Suppose the rule was, we go out to a non-smoking restaurant and smoke cigars. Yes, the people who willingly participate are rude, but so is the person who set the rule.

Unless you're helping me pay my mortgage, you do not get to ask tell me to leave my house.

I disagree with your reasoning and conclusions, mostly because the person asking the wife to leave the house *does* help her pay the mortgage.

Yes, but the rest of the club does not. And the club is the one who made the rule - not the husband. And therein lies the problem, and why I believe in my opinion, that it is not solely a relationship issue, but poor etiquette on the part of the club.

So Melicious, is your point that the rule is in fact rude? Is your position that it is rude to try to enforce a condition on how someone uses their home?
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: Iris on February 11, 2014, 04:57:13 PM
Fwiw I asked DH about this and he thought the idea of a men's club that meet in the houses of members and expected exclusive use of them was weird. In his experience the men go out to a bar or do an activity (fishing etc). From his perspective he felt the club organiser WAS rude. Just another perspective.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: TootsNYC on February 11, 2014, 04:58:51 PM
I think there were two instances of rudeness: the husband, by asking his wife to leave when it obviously upsets her, and the organiser for making the rule in the first place. I don't think 'well the husbands knew and they joined anyway' cancels it out because it was a rude rule to make in the first place. Suppose the rule was, we go out to a non-smoking restaurant and smoke cigars. Yes, the people who willingly participate are rude, but so is the person who set the rule.

Unless you're helping me pay my mortgage, you do not get to ask tell me to leave my house.

I disagree with your reasoning and conclusions, mostly because the person asking the wife to leave the house *does* help her pay the mortgage.

Yes, but the rest of the club does not. And the club is the one who made the rule - not the husband. And therein lies the problem, and why I believe in my opinion, that it is not solely a relationship issue, but poor etiquette on the part of the club.

So Melicious, is your point that the rule is in fact rude? Is your position that it is rude to try to enforce a condition on how someone uses their home?

But that's not what this rule is. This is a rule about how members shall host the club. If you can't meet the conditions, you don't join.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: Delete My Account on February 11, 2014, 04:59:10 PM
I think there were two instances of rudeness: the husband, by asking his wife to leave when it obviously upsets her, and the organiser for making the rule in the first place. I don't think 'well the husbands knew and they joined anyway' cancels it out because it was a rude rule to make in the first place. Suppose the rule was, we go out to a non-smoking restaurant and smoke cigars. Yes, the people who willingly participate are rude, but so is the person who set the rule.

Unless you're helping me pay my mortgage, you do not get to ask tell me to leave my house.

I disagree with your reasoning and conclusions, mostly because the person asking the wife to leave the house *does* help her pay the mortgage.

Yes, but the rest of the club does not. And the club is the one who made the rule - not the husband. And therein lies the problem, and why I believe in my opinion, that it is not solely a relationship issue, but poor etiquette on the part of the club.

So Melicious, is your point that the rule is in fact rude? Is your position that it is rude to try to enforce a condition on how someone uses their home?

Actually I've decided to bow out of this thread. It's getting too contentious for me and keeps going in circles. I've already decided my position on this and it's not going to change.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: VorFemme on February 11, 2014, 05:07:28 PM
I'd put on a purple dress, a BIG red hat, and call some friends to see if they wanted to join me someplace....

Or drive 55 miles across Houston to visit my sister (overnight trip, if it's the weekend).

Or go fabric shopping....

But I wouldn't be cleaning the house and fixing snacks for his club before I left unless he'd helped clean house and fix food for one of my groups in the past (we almost always eat out - too many different women coming from around Houston to bring food).  Unless the group leader is having the dinner at her place or a central location (recreation center) where we can set up a pot luck. 
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: gellchom on February 11, 2014, 08:59:20 PM
Suppose instead of the empty house rule, the club had a "Smoke Free" rule, and some of the members are married to smokers.

Is the club rude to have that rule?  It affects what others, who didn't have a say in the rule, can do in their own homes.

Is the wife rude if she smokes in or near the meeting room?
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: turnip on February 11, 2014, 10:47:45 PM
The club is not rude.

The wife is not rude either.  "No" is a complete sentence, we sometimes say on this site.  Her husband said ( effectively ) "Honey, can you leave the house on X night for my club?".  She said "No, I can't".  There is no way to make that rude, whatever marital repercussions there may be.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: LifeOnPluto on February 12, 2014, 04:58:28 AM
Suppose instead of the empty house rule, the club had a "Smoke Free" rule, and some of the members are married to smokers.

Is the club rude to have that rule?  It affects what others, who didn't have a say in the rule, can do in their own homes.

Is the wife rude if she smokes in or near the meeting room?

For me, "house rights" trump "club rules".

Yes, it would be kind and gracious if the wife refrained from smoking when the club was present. And she'd certainly be rude if she deliberately blew smoke in their faces, and talked about how wonderful nicotine was. But the simple act of smoking in her own home wouldn't be rude, IMO.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: Corvid on February 12, 2014, 07:40:25 AM
I'd want more information before I decided whether or not this club's expectation is even reasonable.  What exactly is the burden on the wife to be out of the house?

What does an evening meeting actually mean?  Is it from, say, 7 o'clock to 9 o'clock?  Or is it 7 o'clock until 11 or 12 o'clock?  One is treating myself to dinner out and maybe browsing the mall, the other is having to amuse myself until after my bedtime when the only things still open are the 24 hour grocery stores and gas stations, bars, and the late night fast food joints.

What is the weather like?  Where I am, we're smack in the middle of the coldest, snowiest winter in eons.  Once the sun goes down, the temps drop below 0 Farenheit and it's miserably cold.  The roads are bad.  Visibility is poor at night because everything looks gray or grayish-white in the dark because of the snow drifts and the snow on the road and often it's been snowing as well.  I would not be pleased with anyone who thought I needed to be out in that because No Girl Cooties Allowed.

Are there comfortable and enjoyable options for the wife if she leaves the house?  Are there places that she can go and enjoy herself, or is this community in the middle of nowhere and unless she wants to hang out at the gas station, she has to drive an hour?

And not least, is leaving her own home to indulge an exclusionary men's club against the wife's own philosophies and moral code?
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: DavidH on February 12, 2014, 12:57:39 PM
It's interesting that on the Bunco thread there was almost uniform agreement that the husband was rude for staying in the room and not making himself scarce while the game was ongoing.  I'm not sure what the difference is between that and this.  It is still the club telling someone how to behave in their own home. 

If the issue is the "no skirts", then it is key to separate the phrasing, which we only know about through the wife who appears to be a biased source, from idea that it's a men only club with no women allowed in the house during the meetings. 

I'll put it another way, what if it is a club for survivors of sexual abuse and they want it to be only men or only women?  Would not wanting the spouses of the survivors in the house be rude in that instance? 

Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: Hmmmmm on February 12, 2014, 01:00:58 PM
It's interesting that on the Bunco thread there was almost uniform agreement that the husband was rude for staying in the room and not making himself scarce while the game was ongoing.  I'm not sure what the difference is between that and this.  It is still the club telling someone how to behave in their own home. 

If the issue is the "no skirts", then it is key to separate the phrasing, which we only know about through the wife who appears to be a biased source, from idea that it's a men only club with no women allowed in the house during the meetings. 

I'll put it another way, what if it is a club for survivors of sexual abuse and they want it to be only men or only women?  Would not wanting the spouses of the survivors in the house be rude in that instance?

I think the majority agree that the wife staying would be rude. And if she is unwilling to accommodate her husband's request to leave the home then he needs to withdraw from the group.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: lowspark on February 12, 2014, 01:34:34 PM
It's interesting that on the Bunco thread there was almost uniform agreement that the husband was rude for staying in the room and not making himself scarce while the game was ongoing.  I'm not sure what the difference is between that and this.  It is still the club telling someone how to behave in their own home. 

If the issue is the "no skirts", then it is key to separate the phrasing, which we only know about through the wife who appears to be a biased source, from idea that it's a men only club with no women allowed in the house during the meetings. 

I'll put it another way, what if it is a club for survivors of sexual abuse and they want it to be only men or only women?  Would not wanting the spouses of the survivors in the house be rude in that instance?

I think the difference that some people are seeing is that for Bunco, the spouse could be in the house and could even make a brief appearance. Here, the spouse is being told to completely vacate the house for the duration of the meeting.

In addition, the husband in the Bunco thread wasn't just there, he was insinuating his presence into the ongoing conversation in the dining room. In effect, he was not only in the house and in the room, he was making himself a part of the event.

Since I started the bunco thread, I'll just repeat what I have stated which is that I do think the wife is rude. My stance is the same in both threads. Member spouse is rude for agreeing to host knowing the other spouse will be there. Non-member spouse is rude for deliberately staying when the rules of the club say to leave. Club has the right to set the rules and any member who finds them unreasonable or unworkable can try to change them, but failing that, should resign membership in the club.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: DavidH on February 12, 2014, 01:45:23 PM
I am 100% in agreement with you lowspark.  Once the non-member spouse knows the deal and they should be asked about this well before people start showing up, they should either talk with their spouse and decide not to host, or agree that their spouse can host and both of them will follow the rules.  The middle ground of hosting and not following the rules is rude on both of their parts. 
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: MrTango on February 12, 2014, 02:49:31 PM
It's interesting that on the Bunco thread there was almost uniform agreement that the husband was rude for staying in the room and not making himself scarce while the game was ongoing.  I'm not sure what the difference is between that and this.  It is still the club telling someone how to behave in their own home. 

If the issue is the "no skirts", then it is key to separate the phrasing, which we only know about through the wife who appears to be a biased source, from idea that it's a men only club with no women allowed in the house during the meetings. 

I'll put it another way, what if it is a club for survivors of sexual abuse and they want it to be only men or only women?  Would not wanting the spouses of the survivors in the house be rude in that instance?

I think the majority agree that the wife staying would be rude. And if she is unwilling to accommodate her husband's request to leave the home then he needs to withdraw from the group.

The wife agreeing to leave the house but then changing her mind and staying would be rude.  If the wife doesn't agree in the first place, then I don't think she's at all rude to refue to leave her home.

Yes, it's also her husband's home.  That doesn't mean that his wishes can trump hers or that her wishes can trump his.  This is a relationship issue between the husband and wife, and that's where the issue needs to be dealt with.

If LadyTango tried to insist that she was going to take over the house and kick me out for a while so her friends could meet there, without asking for my opinion on the matter, and without giving me the opportunity to decline to be kicked out of my own house, I would be seriously rethinking our relationship.  On the other hand, if she asked me before making the commitment and gave me the opportunity to voice my objections or concerns, It's pretty likely that I'd be okay with it and even willing to help her prepare the house for her visitors.

I am 100% in agreement with you lowspark.  Once the non-member spouse knows the deal and they should be asked about this well before people start showing up, they should either talk with their spouse and decide not to host, or agree that their spouse can host and both of them will follow the rules. The middle ground of hosting and not following the rules is rude on both of their parts.

Agreed.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: TurtleDove on February 12, 2014, 03:10:05 PM
If LadyTango tried to insist that she was going to take over the house and kick me out for a while so her friends could meet there, without asking for my opinion on the matter, and without giving me the opportunity to decline to be kicked out of my own house, I would be seriously rethinking our relationship. 

Yep.  And the problem would be with Lady Tango, and not with the friends.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: bloo on February 13, 2014, 10:30:07 AM
It's interesting that on the Bunco thread there was almost uniform agreement that the husband was rude for staying in the room and not making himself scarce while the game was ongoing.  I'm not sure what the difference is between that and this.  It is still the club telling someone how to behave in their own home. 

If the issue is the "no skirts", then it is key to separate the phrasing, which we only know about through the wife who appears to be a biased source, from idea that it's a men only club with no women allowed in the house during the meetings. 

I'll put it another way, what if it is a club for survivors of sexual abuse and they want it to be only men or only women?  Would not wanting the spouses of the survivors in the house be rude in that instance?

I think the difference that some people are seeing is that for Bunco, the spouse could be in the house and could even make a brief appearance. Here, the spouse is being told to completely vacate the house for the duration of the meeting.

In addition, the husband in the Bunco thread wasn't just there, he was insinuating his presence into the ongoing conversation in the dining room. In effect, he was not only in the house and in the room, he was making himself a part of the event.

Since I started the bunco thread, I'll just repeat what I have stated which is that I do think the wife is rude. My stance is the same in both threads. Member spouse is rude for agreeing to host knowing the other spouse will be there. Non-member spouse is rude for deliberately staying when the rules of the club say to leave. Club has the right to set the rules and any member who finds them unreasonable or unworkable can try to change them, but failing that, should resign membership in the club.

I agree. A club can make whatever silly rules it wants, and husband and wife would need to communicate how one of them joining the club affects the family and what level of intrusion is acceptable to everyone. The circumstances in the Dear Abby letter simply wouldn't happen in our household because our friends are more couple-oriented in these parts. There are some Girl's Nites but we never hear of Guys' Nite*, which may be a bit unfair as my DH would like to have something similar (although 'no skirts' would not fly and all the men we know would take care of the cleaning, prep and some cooking). I'd be willing to make myself scarce but expected to leave the home? Nah. Not unless I felt like it. But that would be communicated upon consideration of joining such a club or group.

I, personally, find the...rules of 'no skirts' and that the skirts need to do the cooking and cleaning misogynist and silly but if someone else wants to get a club together and participate in that then DH and I are free to not participate if we don't like the rules.

So I guess even something distasteful (to me) is not necessarily rude.

*DH mostly hunts and fishes by himself, but will occasionally join a buddy or a group of buddies to do those things. He doesnt' appear to get together for dinner and/or a movie like my girlfriends occasionally do, though. I think he'd like to. But other friends seem to prefer the company of their spouses or couples-only things. I know for a fact that some of the guys prefer the company of their wives because their wives will give them all kinds of heck if they wanted to do a Guys' Nite. Which is sad.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: TootsNYC on February 13, 2014, 10:32:33 AM
Quote
rules of 'no skirts' and that the skirts need to do the cooking and cleaning misogynist and silly

I don't think the part I crossed out *is* a rule of the club.
I think that's the conclusion that the LW has drawn from her objection to the rule.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: lady_disdain on February 13, 2014, 08:03:11 PM
Let's see.

There is a club that says its members must wear red dresses and purple hats. But it is rude to tell people how to dress, so the club is rude? No. The members accepted that rule. Since it only affects the club member, it is up to them (except if there is budget concerns over the price of the dress and hat).

There is a club that says everyone must meet in a cafe once a month. If someone can't go to the cafe, then they shouldn't be a member.

A different club organizes outings. If someone can't go to the outings, they shouldn't be a member.

This club asks for an empty house when hosting. If the husband can't offer that, he shouldn't be a member. Simple.

Now, how the husband settles this with his wife is a relationship matter. If he just tells her "get out of the house", he is being rude. If he asks her if she minds leaving for a couple of hours, she can say yes or no. They can make a bargain (she gets a mani-pedi during this time, which her husband pays for from his fun budget). If she agrees and then backs out (without prior warning, like the Bunco husband), then she is being rude.

However, if his wife refuses point blank to leave the house to him for a few hours, then he can't fulfill the requirements to be a member of the club. So sorry.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: lollylegs on February 13, 2014, 11:59:46 PM
Let's see.

There is a club that says its members must wear red dresses and purple hats. But it is rude to tell people how to dress, so the club is rude? No. The members accepted that rule. Since it only affects the club member, it is up to them (except if there is budget concerns over the price of the dress and hat).

Nope, it's more like the rule that is that the member's spouses must wear red dresses and purple hats.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: VorFemme on February 14, 2014, 07:54:42 AM
Let's see.

There is a club that says its members must wear red dresses and purple hats. But it is rude to tell people how to dress, so the club is rude? No. The members accepted that rule. Since it only affects the club member, it is up to them (except if there is budget concerns over the price of the dress and hat).

There is a club that says everyone must meet in a cafe once a month. If someone can't go to the cafe, then they shouldn't be a member.

A different club organizes outings. If someone can't go to the outings, they shouldn't be a member.

This club asks for an empty house when hosting. If the husband can't offer that, he shouldn't be a member. Simple.

Now, how the husband settles this with his wife is a relationship matter. If he just tells her "get out of the house", he is being rude. If he asks her if she minds leaving for a couple of hours, she can say yes or no. They can make a bargain (she gets a mani-pedi during this time, which her husband pays for from his fun budget). If she agrees and then backs out (without prior warning, like the Bunco husband), then she is being rude.

However, if his wife refuses point blank to leave the house to him for a few hours, then he can't fulfill the requirements to be a member of the club. So sorry.

Purple dresses & red hats for the majority of members - the red dresses & purple hats are the leaders of the group or celebrating their birthday that month - at least in the group that I know of (by belonging to it).

Most of us wear purple tops and neutral skirts or pants - as head to toe purple makes even a skinny woman look like she might be a close relative of Barney the Dinosaur!

And there are events, once in a while, that spouses or other family members can come along to - but not all events are open to those who aren't at least eligible for membership but might want to try the event before joining....
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: Pandora on February 14, 2014, 12:44:08 PM
My DH would be told to hire the Merry Maids and visit Stew Leanard's for his snack trays.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: Pandora on February 14, 2014, 01:11:03 PM
Two words come to my mind!  "Stepford Wives"... the original 1975 version  >:D

Sorry  >:D

 Not exactly, the wife would have to stay there and play waitress.

 
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: lady_disdain on February 14, 2014, 05:35:40 PM
Let's see.

There is a club that says its members must wear red dresses and purple hats. But it is rude to tell people how to dress, so the club is rude? No. The members accepted that rule. Since it only affects the club member, it is up to them (except if there is budget concerns over the price of the dress and hat).

Nope, it's more like the rule that is that the member's spouses must wear red dresses and purple hats.

Did you read the entire post? I was going through all sort of club rules that could be seen as impolite (telling people how to dress, where to go, etc). I address the spouse issue at the end.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: TootsNYC on February 14, 2014, 05:38:26 PM
Let's see.

There is a club that says its members must wear red dresses and purple hats. But it is rude to tell people how to dress, so the club is rude? No. The members accepted that rule. Since it only affects the club member, it is up to them (except if there is budget concerns over the price of the dress and hat).

Nope, it's more like the rule that is that the member's spouses must wear red dresses and purple hats.

I disagree. Because I do not believe that the club's rules are that the wives must cook and clean. I just don't.

I think the letter writer is drawing that conclusion herself. The structure and word choice of her letter make me think so.
   And I have a hard time thinking that it would even OCCUR to any club organizer, let alone that the entire group of guys would say OK. They might say OK to the idea of being able to hang out in a female-free zone, but I just do not believe that the clubs rule is: "Your wife has to cook and clean to prepare the party space for us."
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: shhh its me on February 14, 2014, 05:51:41 PM
Let's see.

There is a club that says its members must wear red dresses and purple hats. But it is rude to tell people how to dress, so the club is rude? No. The members accepted that rule. Since it only affects the club member, it is up to them (except if there is budget concerns over the price of the dress and hat).

Nope, it's more like the rule that is that the member's spouses must wear red dresses and purple hats.

I disagree. Because I do not believe that the club's rules are that the wives must cook and clean. I just don't.

I think the letter writer is drawing that conclusion herself. The structure and word choice of her letter make me think so.
   And I have a hard time thinking that it would even OCCUR to any club organizer, let alone that the entire group of guys would say OK. They might say OK to the idea of being able to hang out in a female-free zone, but I just do not believe that the clubs rule is: "Your wife has to cook and clean to prepare the party space for us."

Well if there was a club with those rules (ie your wife needs to cook for us then leave) a husband who joined , would very likely have this type of attitude in general.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: lollylegs on February 14, 2014, 08:09:44 PM
Let's see.

There is a club that says its members must wear red dresses and purple hats. But it is rude to tell people how to dress, so the club is rude? No. The members accepted that rule. Since it only affects the club member, it is up to them (except if there is budget concerns over the price of the dress and hat).

Nope, it's more like the rule that is that the member's spouses must wear red dresses and purple hats.

Did you read the entire post? I was going through all sort of club rules that could be seen as impolite (telling people how to dress, where to go, etc). I address the spouse issue at the end.

Yes, I read the entire post. I read the part where you said it's between the husband and wife. Your analogy is still flawed.

Let's see.

There is a club that says its members must wear red dresses and purple hats. But it is rude to tell people how to dress, so the club is rude? No. The members accepted that rule. Since it only affects the club member, it is up to them (except if there is budget concerns over the price of the dress and hat).

Nope, it's more like the rule that is that the member's spouses must wear red dresses and purple hats.

I disagree. Because I do not believe that the club's rules are that the wives must cook and clean. I just don't.

I think the letter writer is drawing that conclusion herself. The structure and word choice of her letter make me think so.
   And I have a hard time thinking that it would even OCCUR to any club organizer, let alone that the entire group of guys would say OK. They might say OK to the idea of being able to hang out in a female-free zone, but I just do not believe that the clubs rule is: "Your wife has to cook and clean to prepare the party space for us."

I'm not talking about the cooking and cleaning part, I'm talking about the wife having to leave the house part. I'm enjoying the conversation and the differing opinions but I'm firmly convinced that it's rude to make rules about when people are and aren't allowed in their own house.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: Mary Lennox on February 14, 2014, 08:53:12 PM
I would love to see a Women Only group start up with all the wives who meet at the same time at a different house.

"Sorry dear, no time to cook for your meeting. I'm off to my own meeting."

At least that would solve the "no skirts" rule!
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: Vall on February 15, 2014, 07:10:05 AM
If the club actually had a rule that all wives of members must cook and clean for the meetings, wouldn't the club also need a rule that all members must be married?  Unless this is a couples-only retirement home, there are probably men there who are divorced, widowed, or who never married.

Even if they do have this requirement (and I think this is very doubtful), I think the only rude part about it is that the husband voluntarily chose to join the club, after being told the rules.  The rule would only effect the wife if the husband voluntarily chooses to join the club.  The club is not inflicting the rule on the wife--the husband would be responsible for inflicting the rule on his wife by joining.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: LifeOnPluto on February 16, 2014, 12:54:47 AM
Let's see.

There is a club that says its members must wear red dresses and purple hats. But it is rude to tell people how to dress, so the club is rude? No. The members accepted that rule. Since it only affects the club member, it is up to them (except if there is budget concerns over the price of the dress and hat).

Nope, it's more like the rule that is that the member's spouses must wear red dresses and purple hats.

Did you read the entire post? I was going through all sort of club rules that could be seen as impolite (telling people how to dress, where to go, etc). I address the spouse issue at the end.

Yes, I read the entire post. I read the part where you said it's between the husband and wife. Your analogy is still flawed.

Let's see.

There is a club that says its members must wear red dresses and purple hats. But it is rude to tell people how to dress, so the club is rude? No. The members accepted that rule. Since it only affects the club member, it is up to them (except if there is budget concerns over the price of the dress and hat).

Nope, it's more like the rule that is that the member's spouses must wear red dresses and purple hats.

I disagree. Because I do not believe that the club's rules are that the wives must cook and clean. I just don't.

I think the letter writer is drawing that conclusion herself. The structure and word choice of her letter make me think so.
   And I have a hard time thinking that it would even OCCUR to any club organizer, let alone that the entire group of guys would say OK. They might say OK to the idea of being able to hang out in a female-free zone, but I just do not believe that the clubs rule is: "Your wife has to cook and clean to prepare the party space for us."

I'm not talking about the cooking and cleaning part, I'm talking about the wife having to leave the house part. I'm enjoying the conversation and the differing opinions but I'm firmly convinced that it's rude to make rules about when people are and aren't allowed in their own house.

I agree. Perhaps the clothes analogy could have been better expressed as "spouses must NOT wear the colour blue when the Club is meeting". But such a rule would still be rude.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: Hmmmmm on February 16, 2014, 09:27:02 AM
Let's see.

There is a club that says its members must wear red dresses and purple hats. But it is rude to tell people how to dress, so the club is rude? No. The members accepted that rule. Since it only affects the club member, it is up to them (except if there is budget concerns over the price of the dress and hat).

Nope, it's more like the rule that is that the member's spouses must wear red dresses and purple hats.

Did you read the entire post? I was going through all sort of club rules that could be seen as impolite (telling people how to dress, where to go, etc). I address the spouse issue at the end.

Yes, I read the entire post. I read the part where you said it's between the husband and wife. Your analogy is still flawed.

Let's see.

There is a club that says its members must wear red dresses and purple hats. But it is rude to tell people how to dress, so the club is rude? No. The members accepted that rule. Since it only affects the club member, it is up to them (except if there is budget concerns over the price of the dress and hat).

Nope, it's more like the rule that is that the member's spouses must wear red dresses and purple hats.

I disagree. Because I do not believe that the club's rules are that the wives must cook and clean. I just don't.

I think the letter writer is drawing that conclusion herself. The structure and word choice of her letter make me think so.
   And I have a hard time thinking that it would even OCCUR to any club organizer, let alone that the entire group of guys would say OK. They might say OK to the idea of being able to hang out in a female-free zone, but I just do not believe that the clubs rule is: "Your wife has to cook and clean to prepare the party space for us."

I'm not talking about the cooking and cleaning part, I'm talking about the wife having to leave the house part. I'm enjoying the conversation and the differing opinions but I'm firmly convinced that it's rude to make rules about when people are and aren't allowed in their own house.

But so many people wouldn't have an issue with the rule. So I don't find having a rule that only club members may be present in the home when the club is meeting is rude.

The rudeness comes when a family member joins a club with this rule when the other family members do not agree with the rule. So the husband is rude for joining a club with the rule since his wife doesn't want to leave. The wife is wrong for wanting to change a club rule for a group yo whom she doesn't belong.

But I'll never see how the rule is wrong.
Title: Re: Dear Abby 2/4/14 - Men's Only Club
Post by: lowspark on February 18, 2014, 08:05:39 AM
Let's see.

There is a club that says its members must wear red dresses and purple hats. But it is rude to tell people how to dress, so the club is rude? No. The members accepted that rule. Since it only affects the club member, it is up to them (except if there is budget concerns over the price of the dress and hat).

Nope, it's more like the rule that is that the member's spouses must wear red dresses and purple hats.

I disagree. Because I do not believe that the club's rules are that the wives must cook and clean. I just don't.

I think the letter writer is drawing that conclusion herself. The structure and word choice of her letter make me think so.
   And I have a hard time thinking that it would even OCCUR to any club organizer, let alone that the entire group of guys would say OK. They might say OK to the idea of being able to hang out in a female-free zone, but I just do not believe that the clubs rule is: "Your wife has to cook and clean to prepare the party space for us."

POD. It's actually ridiculous because the rule would be unenforceable. Is someone from the group going to go over to this week's host's house and oversee the wife doing the work in order to make sure it happens according to club rules? Of course not.

I agree that the wording of the letter makes it sound like in the LW's household the wife is responsible for cleaning and cooking so that when this club comes over, her husband expects her to cook, or in the actual words of the letter, "prepare(s) everything".

It's feasible and not all that shocking that the club rule is "no women allowed" (regardless of the wording used) but it just seems silly that there are any rules about who has to do the "preparing" for the meeting.