Etiquette Hell

General Etiquette => Family and Children => Topic started by: RegionMom on April 20, 2014, 02:04:43 PM

Title: How strong was DD's "no" for prom? update 102
Post by: RegionMom on April 20, 2014, 02:04:43 PM
bg-

DD is a jr, age 16, at a private school where she is rather quiet.  She has a "boyfriend" that is not allowed to date till he is 18, but they hang out at shared activities and our families are mutual friends, but most of the kids at her school do not know about him, because she is...quiet.  He does not attend her school.

Prom is coming up, and he will be in another state at an international competition.  So, knowing she was not going to prom, and was not interested in going with a group of girls she is not really friends with, she accepted a babysitting job a few weeks ago. 

cue last Monday-

Fellow junior boy, let's call him "Jay," stopped by her locker before school and asked, "hey, if you are going to prom, could you and I go together?  Let me know so I can decide which car you want me to drive."

DD-" I have babysitting, and another activity (day of shooting with Scouts); I am not going."

cue Wednesday-

Jay, "I bought prom tickets just in case.  Let me know if you can go."
DD, "Okay??"

cue Friday night (no school Th or Fri)-

Jay's mom calls me.  I have not worked with her, could not pick her out from a line up, do not know her.  She asks if I have some time to talk.

Her story-

Jay asked DD to prom, and she agreed.  Jay had worked out who they were going with, had rented a tux, had made dinner reservations, and had texted DD that afternoon to check on her dress color.  DD had responded, "I am not going.  Sorry!"

And now, Jay is mistrustful and unsure of himself and "may not have the courage to ask another girl out because of this, and DD really set him back."

I was quite surprised, because all I know of this guy is that he is also in advanced classes and can be an annoying know-it-all, likes to talk a lot, and on class trips, sometimes wanders off following randomness. 

DD was out with a girlfriend (from yet another school) so I told the mom I would wait to speak with her, but that I had heard NOTHING about prom, and told her of the babysitting job right off the bat.  I did NOT mention "the boyfriend" because it was not relevant. 

Mom continued on that as a mom of two older girls now in their 20's that she would want a mom of a 16 year old  to know if their daughter was saying yes to a date and then not respecting that, or to make NO be a no.

I assured her that I would speak to DD, but since I had heard NOTHING about prom, I could not answer for her.

She continued repeating how upset her son was, and I let her go on.  I asked what should be done and offered DD for pay for tickets, or to cancel her babysitting job and make her go (but she does not have a dress) or, what??  And mom finally said that she wants DD to speak with Jay. 

And say what?

DH and I spoke with DD that night, as did DS, a senior, who also knows Jay only vaguely.  We all agree that her Wednesday, "Okay?" was not a firm NO.  But, how should DD proceed?

She said she did not tell us, because to her, asking someone out for a date includes asking the dad for permission, and then asking in a nice way.  (DS took a small bouquet of flowers for his date, after asking her dad for permission, and who all was going as a group date.)(His date is strictly a friend.)

She said his was less casual that asking to go study at a coffee shop.  No details, they do not talk, she does not consider him a friend.  I asked how many classes they shared, and once she counted it up, was quite surprised that it was four!! 

It was now late Friday night and too late to do any calls.

Sat was egg hunt help at church and then DD had yet another babysitting job.  Then today, Easter.  We are soon going over the DH's parents for the rest of the day. 

So, what does DD tell Jay tomorrow at school?

Sorry, of course, but for what, other than "not saying NO strongly enough."?


***********************************************************************
**I just asked DD if anyone at school knew he had asked her.  "Maybe (name) because her locker is next to mine and she might have heard when he asked?"
Then she asked what I was doing so I showed her this post, and she agreed it was correct.  I solemnly swear I have not changed anything and just added the *** part now.
*************************************************************

So, what for Monday for DD?








Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: RegionMom on April 20, 2014, 02:13:07 PM
Oh, prom is this coming Sat., the 26th.  School is small, less that 100 students per grade.

Prom is at a downtown hotel. 

Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: MrTango on April 20, 2014, 02:18:42 PM
By saying "I have babysitting, and another activity (day of shooting with Scouts); I am not going," should have been all the answer he needed.

On the other hand, when he said he bought tickets "just in case," (which I think is a manipulative move on his part), she probably should have reiterated that she was not going to prom.

I wouldn't discuss the matter with Jay's mom at all, and I wouldn't tell your DD to bring up the topic with Jay.  I would advise her that if Jay brings up the subject again, that she should say "When you first asked me on [day] if I would go to the prom with you, I said no because I had a prior commitment."
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: AmethystAnne on April 20, 2014, 02:20:01 PM
At the time he asked her, your DD told the boy she 2 other events, and that she was not going to the prom.

Then he said a day or 2 later that he bought tickets just in case, and then told his Mom that essentially your DD led him on? Hmmm, he's really wanting for your DD to go with him isn't he. It seems to me that he told his mom so that she could add her 2 cents ?

He didn't want to take DD's No as really a No.

Oh, one more opinion of mine.... Do not reimburse the boy for the ticket.
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: #borecore on April 20, 2014, 02:20:57 PM
Saying "OK" on the second just-in-case ask ('cause that's what it was) is most definitely not saying "No."

I agree with his mom (who shouldn't have called you) that she needs to be clear, explicit, and probably apologetic.

"Jay, I'm sorry I wasn't clearer before. I am not going to go to the prom with you or anyone else. I'm busy that night. Good luck finding another date."
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: veronaz on April 20, 2014, 02:23:37 PM
This is a no brainer.

DD:  "Jay, I told you I wasn't going to the prom.  It's too bad your mother somehow got a different idea, but again, I'm not going to the prom."

Period.


Quote
She continued repeating how upset her son was, and I let her go on.  I asked what should be done and offered DD for pay for tickets, or to cancel her babysitting job and make her go (but she does not have a dress) or, what??  And mom finally said that she wants DD to speak with Jay. 

???

You were wrong to ask the woman what to do, and wrong to offer DD's payment of tickets  :o, and to ask that woman DD should cancel her babysitting.  What??!!  :o  You said you don't even know the woman, so I don't understand why you're allowing her to decide "what to do".

DD told Jay when he fist asked that she was NOT going to the prom.  That's it.
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: NyaChan on April 20, 2014, 02:25:59 PM
Saying "OK" on the second just-in-case ask ('cause that's what it was) is most definitely not saying "No."

I agree with his mom (who shouldn't have called you) that she needs to be clear, explicit, and probably apologetic.

"Jay, I'm sorry I wasn't clearer before. I am not going to go to the prom with you or anyone else. I'm busy that night. Good luck finding another date."

Yeah, reading that interaction made me think she'd opened the door to the possibility that she'd be going with him.  I think she should approach Jay in person and apologize for the misunderstanding the other day, but as she told him when he asked originally, she is going to be busy that night.
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: Allyson on April 20, 2014, 02:33:09 PM
I think she can say she's sorry for the misunderstanding, and reiterate than when he first asked her, she *did* say she wasn't going at all. I don't think you need to reimburse for the tickets, but I also don't think this is really 'about' that.

I do think that if your daughter thinks that all dates involve asking the dad for permission, she will be surprised, though. If that's something she needs/wants to happen, I think she needs to make that clear rather than expect all guys will know that.
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: TeamBhakta on April 20, 2014, 02:40:13 PM
Jay reminds me of that creepy manipulative guy Lisa Whelchel married (and later divorced). You know, the older guy who was jealous she had a boyfriend, so he got up in church one day, announced they were getting married and Lisa got railroaded into marrying him instead of her boyfriend.
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: NyaChan on April 20, 2014, 02:43:15 PM
I think she can say she's sorry for the misunderstanding, and reiterate than when he first asked her, she *did* say she wasn't going at all. I don't think you need to reimburse for the tickets, but I also don't think this is really 'about' that.

I do think that if your daughter thinks that all dates involve asking the dad for permission, she will be surprised, though. If that's something she needs/wants to happen, I think she needs to make that clear rather than expect all guys will know that.

Yeah, I second that.  I would be really taken aback by that expectation unless that was the cultural norm in the area or the community.
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: RegionMom on April 20, 2014, 02:49:41 PM
We have kept our lives rather conservative, and I was (nicely) surprised to hear from DD that she expects a date to ask permission from dad.  She also expects her guy (now and/or future) to open the door for her, know how to camp and shoot, carry on a good conversation with adults, go to church, tip well, etc...  :)

I did briefly explain that it can be extremely casual, but she pointed our for PROM, it should be a Big. Deal.   And, with plenty of time to shop for a great dress!

Some kids have sent balloon bouquets, written giant notes on cars, sung a song, fun poster/poem on a locker, called out during class with a special message, etc...  since this is a small private school, the kids have known each other for years, and prom is the big party night.  Well-chaperoned, but, party!!

DH and I have been loosening the reins, looking for when they go off to college.  They do drive, cook, do their own laundry, watch movies, etc...but, old-fashioned respect is good.  :)
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: NyaChan on April 20, 2014, 02:52:33 PM
Oh I think it's fine to want that, nothing wrong with it, but I don't think that is in sync with what other kids her age would be in the habit of doing.  In other words, the guys asking her out won't know to go ask her dad first unless she tells them that's what she expects.
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: nayberry on April 20, 2014, 03:01:24 PM
so she said no, giving her reason, other events, and he has gotten his mum involved?

i'd be calling the mum and reiterating that dd had turned down the invite and not be offering to pay for anything.
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: JenJay on April 20, 2014, 03:05:29 PM
I think she should tell Jay "I apologize if I gave you the impression that I accepted your invitation to prom on Wednesday. I was confused when you said you bought tickets and I didn't mean for my "Okay?" to come across as an acceptance. As I said on Monday, I'm not going to prom."

She does not owe him further explanation or apology, nor should she reimburse him any expenses. If his mom calls again tell her "DD told Jay on Monday that she wasn't available to go to prom. We're sorry that he misunderstood." and nothing more.
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: ClaireC79 on April 20, 2014, 03:08:40 PM
TBH the first time you daughter made it sound like these were the reasons she wasn't going, rather than saying 'no thanks, I'm babysitting etc' - if it was worded the way you have written I could see a, maybe slightly clueless, guy thinking the last line was a 'I wasn't planning on going so I agreed to this other thing' rather than a 'I don't want to go'

The second time (although very presumptious of him to buy tickets) she didn't say no, she said OK - someone who is hoping for a positive answer is going to take that as yes, even with inflection in her voice.

Look back on what you wrote, she never actually said 'no' - therefore to me, it wasn't strong (or clear) at all

I think she should speak to him, and explain she meant no all along (and in the future, when someone asks her something and she wants to say no, use the actual word, not to hedge around it)
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: Kimberami on April 20, 2014, 03:10:57 PM
Jay needs to learn that no means no, not ask me again tomorrow.  He bought the tickets on his own accord, and they are his responsibility.  Your DD should by no means reimburse him for them.
I feel I have to say this....Jay's a big boy; His Mama shouldn't be fighting his battles for him.  I'd be tempted to tell her this (in as nice a way as possible). 
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: LeveeWoman on April 20, 2014, 03:11:40 PM
TBH the first time you daughter made it sound like these were the reasons she wasn't going, rather than saying 'no thanks, I'm babysitting etc' - if it was worded the way you have written I could see a, maybe slightly clueless, guy thinking the last line was a 'I wasn't planning on going so I agreed to this other thing' rather than a 'I don't want to go'

The second time (although very presumptious of him to buy tickets) she didn't say no, she said OK - someone who is hoping for a positive answer is going to take that as yes, even with inflection in her voice.

Look back on what you wrote, she never actually said 'no' - therefore to me, it wasn't strong (or clear) at all

I think she should speak to him, and explain she meant no all along (and in the future, when someone asks her something and she wants to say no, use the actual word, not to hedge around it)


"I have babysitting, and another activity (day of shooting with Scouts); I am not going."

That sounds completely negative to me, especially the bolded bit.
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: wonderfullyanonymous on April 20, 2014, 03:15:09 PM
Your DD told Jay no, and he went and bought tickets anyway, and tried to guilt your DD into going anyway.  Jay then fabricates a wonderful story to his mother, who IMHO, hasn't been very proactive teaching Jay that no means no. Don't pay for the prom ticket, it was bought at a tool of manipulation, IMHO.

Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: MariaE on April 20, 2014, 03:26:43 PM
Your DD told Jay no, and he went and bought tickets anyway, and tried to guilt your DD into going anyway.  Jay then fabricates a wonderful story to his mother, who IMHO, hasn't been very proactive teaching Jay that no means no. Don't pay for the prom ticket, it was bought at a tool of manipulation, IMHO.

Agree 100%.
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: Cherry91 on April 20, 2014, 03:40:01 PM
I'm having a premonition... this boy will in the future regularly declare himself to be a "Nice Guy" who is constantly "Friendzoned".

He said "hey, if you are going to prom, could you and I go together?  Let me know so I can decide which car you want me to drive." which in all honesty sounded like he already considered it a done deal, and as far as he's concerned, that's all that mattered.

Don't apologise, don't reimburse, basically don't do anything else that he can twist to make himself "in the right".
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: cicero on April 20, 2014, 03:48:35 PM
I think:
A) your DDs no was clear
B) jay was manipulative in buying the tickets and presenting it as a fait acompli.
C) at that point your DD should have reiterated her no, and not said "okay?", but still I take her ok to mean " I'll let you know if things change" not " ok I'm going with you to the prom"

This is all on jay. At most your DD should apologize for any misunderstanding but not to reimburse him for anything.

[quo
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: JenJay on April 20, 2014, 04:00:02 PM
Jay reminds me of that creepy manipulative guy Lisa Whelchel married (and later divorced). You know, the older guy who was jealous she had a boyfriend, so he got up in church one day, announced they were getting married and Lisa got railroaded into marrying him instead of her boyfriend.

I'd never heard of this so I googled it and that's not how she describes it at all. She said it was an arranged marriage but she had a choice, she chose to marry him and never regretted it. She wrote that she had already broken up with her boyfriend and her husband wasn't the one who announced the engagement, that was their pastor. Her husband was just as surprised as she was (although he was thrilled and she wasn't, because she hadn't decided yet whether or not she was going to marry him).
http://www.crosswalk.com/1090966/ (http://www.crosswalk.com/1090966/)
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: shhh its me on April 20, 2014, 04:29:46 PM
While I think you're DD was clear the first time in general I suggest she lead with the "no" or "yes"  in the future.  "I'm sorry , I have other plans that evening.  I will not be at prom."  The "ok" could be confusing.   I do think it would be gracious to say "Sorry for the misunderstanding . I will not be attended prom."

BUT why on earth did you start offering recompense before speaking to her?  I think that was really rude and unfair to your daughter, if the mother had said yes would you have held your daughter to it?   
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: jedikaiti on April 20, 2014, 05:31:28 PM
Your DD told Jay no, and he went and bought tickets anyway, and tried to guilt your DD into going anyway.  Jay then fabricates a wonderful story to his mother, who IMHO, hasn't been very proactive teaching Jay that no means no. Don't pay for the prom ticket, it was bought at a tool of manipulation, IMHO.

Agree 100%.

Bingo. If he talks to her, she should reiterate that. "I told you when you asked that I had other plans and would not be going. I don't know why you would have bought tickets anyway, unless you had another date lined up."

I'm not sure about the italicized bit, but her first no was strong enough. After he said he bought tickets, perhaps she should have asked who he was going with, but on the spot like that, I suspect a confused "okay" is the best I could have done, too.
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: Surianne on April 20, 2014, 05:42:29 PM
"Okay" to me means yes, so I'm a bit confused as to why you and your daughter thought she said no.  I can't think of any way that "okay" could be interpreted as no.  Her original mention of other plans was a bit wishy-washy, and his buying the tickets did seem like a way to try to coerce her into a yes, but this whole situation seems like a miscommunication.  I'd suggest that you, as parent, stay out of it, and tell his mom that it was up to the kids to figure out.  It's a good idea for her to learn to say no in a clear manner as a teenager.  You can definitely coach her on that, of course.
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: Outdoor Girl on April 20, 2014, 05:51:48 PM
She was completely, absolutely, clear when he first asked her.  Then Jay went ahead and bought tickets anyway.  It is completely on him that he is now out money for the tickets, tux rental, whatever.  This guy is extremely manipulative.

As to her 'Okay?' when he said he'd bought tickets anyway, to me, it depends on how she said it.  I can totally hear her saying 'Ooookaaay' in a voice that meant 'Are you out of your mind?  I already told you I'M NOT GOING.'

I think DD's only obligation at this point is to call Jay and tell him, 'I was perfectly clear when you asked me that I would not be going to prom.  Good luck finding someone to go with you.'  And hang up.  IMO, she shouldn't even apologize for 'the misunderstanding'.  There was no misunderstanding; Jay was trying to guilt her into going with him.  Nice guy, he is NOT.
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: buvezdevin on April 20, 2014, 05:57:04 PM
I don't see the "okay" as clouding the initial "I'm not going".

OP's DD initially said what reads as a polite "I have other plans" capped by "I'm not going."

Clueless boy later says "I bought tickets [even though you told me you have other plans and are not going] *let me know if you can go*"

In the place of OP's DD I am not sure my confusion at this communication would have allowed me the time to think through how to politely say "as I told you before, I am not going." But in any event, all she could fairly be assumed to have agreed to by her "okay" is that she would let the boy know if her plans changed.

Her plans did not change, he took a flyer on the tickets, his bad, his cost, great opportunity for OP to coach daughter regarding how to handle social situations where another does not just accept "no" and - if the boy's mother calls OP again - great opportunity to clue in the mother that her son seems to have made a couple of bad assumptions and read the situation as a "this is what I would like, so of course OP's daughter will as well if I just move ahead."
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: purple on April 20, 2014, 05:57:17 PM
I think she was very clear with her first answer.

I'm not sure why Jay would then go out and buy tickets anyway, but he did.  DD probably should have been clear once again by saying "no" rather than "okay".  I can see how he may have construed that as an acceptance.

I think your daughter could, if she wanted to, apologise for the misunderstanding when she said okay, but that's it.  She does not owe him an apology in any way, shape or form for not going to the prom.

Hopefully this will be a good lesson for Jay too.  He needs to learn that when a girl says no to a date, that means no and that she won't be going with him.  I'm not sure what his parents are teaching him where he decides after a girl says no that he will buy tickets anyway and try to guilt or manipulate her into dating him.  There's all kinds of wrong there, IMO.
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: bonyk on April 20, 2014, 06:19:06 PM
I think she should tell Jay "I apologize if I gave you the impression that I accepted your invitation to prom on Wednesday. I was confused when you said you bought tickets and I didn't mean for my "Okay?" to come across as an acceptance. As I said on Monday, I'm not going to prom."

I like this, and I would be tempted to add on something like, "In the future, if you have something to address with me, let me know instead of having your mom call my mom, okay?". Of course, teenaged me would not have the nerve, and I'd probably walk away after mumbling the first part.
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: Carotte on April 20, 2014, 06:21:07 PM
I can clearly see OP's daughter (and me) answering "okay?" in that puzzled, raised eyebrow, trailing and audible question mark that could translate as "why are you telling me this?".

Lovestruck and/or socially not there teenager could interpret this as an agreement, but for me the daughter is in the clear.
There could have been better communication all around, but it's on Jay to have jumped to hope/conclusion and bought the tickets, he probably spun a tale to his mom, maybe to explain why he already had bought, rented and made reservations, or he really believes it, or thought his mommy would make the DD go to the dance with him....
They're teenagers, knowing adults sometime have trouble navigating communication, I'm not surprised of the hiccups.
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: coolio on April 20, 2014, 06:30:45 PM
bg-

Jay, "I bought prom tickets just in case.  Let me know if you can go."
DD, "Okay??"



To me it seems like your DD's okay is the answer to the bold part - Let me know if you can go. That is the only question that was asked in this second interaction.

Also Jay should not have bought the tickets, because even though your DD didn't directly say no, she didn't say yes either.

I don't think your DD should apologize to Jay, if he brings up prom she should say No I am not going and leave it at that.
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: Jones on April 20, 2014, 06:48:19 PM
It seems her No was string enough at some point, as Jay told his mother she has now said No.

If he can't take "I'm busy that night" as a No, and if he's going to run to his Mom for intervention when shot down, he's going to have a hard time in college.

Eta I also took the "okay" as meaning "okay I'll let you know if I can go." As she still has plans Saturday. she still cannot and will not go, so she didn't lie.
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: Addy on April 20, 2014, 06:58:57 PM
I agree 100% with buvezdevin, coolio and Jones.

He didn't even ask her to go the second time, he simply said, let me know if you can go. So the okay, to me, would be saying, okay, I will let you know if I can go.

I am a little ticked at this other mother reinforcing that it's ok not to take no for an answer from a girl, but maybe she didn't get the whole story.
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: TeamBhakta on April 20, 2014, 07:08:50 PM
I think she should tell Jay "I apologize if I gave you the impression that I accepted your invitation to prom on Wednesday. I was confused when you said you bought tickets and I didn't mean for my "Okay?" to come across as an acceptance. As I said on Monday, I'm not going to prom."

She does not owe him further explanation or apology, nor should she reimburse him any expenses. If his mom calls again tell her "DD told Jay on Monday that she wasn't available to go to prom. We're sorry that he misunderstood." and nothing more.

If the genders were reversed, there's no way we'd suggest a boy should apologize to an overly aggressive / sneaky girl who wouldn't accept no.
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: NyaChan on April 20, 2014, 07:18:40 PM
I think she should tell Jay "I apologize if I gave you the impression that I accepted your invitation to prom on Wednesday. I was confused when you said you bought tickets and I didn't mean for my "Okay?" to come across as an acceptance. As I said on Monday, I'm not going to prom."

She does not owe him further explanation or apology, nor should she reimburse him any expenses. If his mom calls again tell her "DD told Jay on Monday that she wasn't available to go to prom. We're sorry that he misunderstood." and nothing more.

If the genders were reversed, there's no way we'd suggest a boy should apologize to an overly aggressive / sneaky girl who wouldn't accept no.

Actually for me the gender reversal would make me want the guy to apologize more.  Not because an apology was necessarily owed, but because I'd worry that he'd look like a jerk otherwise to people who do subscribe to the typical gender role ideas - as in, that poor girl got up the courage to ask him out and he…so on and so forth.  Sometimes an apology is good, just as a CYA thing.
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: Garden Goblin on April 20, 2014, 07:38:56 PM
Send this link to Jay and his mother - http://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2011/03/21/mythcommunication-its-not-that-they-dont-understand-they-just-dont-like-the-answer/

Tell your daughter not to worry about it, it's their problem, not hers.

If Jay's mother still has problems, point out a simple truth to her - it's not a matter of 'well she didn't say no clearly enough', it's a matter of 'she never said yes'.
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: blarg314 on April 20, 2014, 07:43:22 PM
I would say that the first time she was clear in saying no. Jay was being presumptuous and pushy in his second telling (it wasn't really asking), and your daughter's response to *that* was unclear - possibly out of surprise. I do think that the pushiness of not taking no for an answer cancels out the second response.

If you need a response to Jay's mother, I'd tell her her son needs to take no for an answer, and not assume that he can push a girl into changing her answer by spending money.  I would not offer to reimburse him - he bought tickets after she said no.

However, I think it would be a good idea to have a frank talk with your daughter about the realities of dating, before she sets herself up for more problems. It sounds like she had very specific, very firm ideas about what dating involves, and doesn't realize that these expectations aren't going to be shared by most guys. If she is expecting that of course they will share her ideas, and is shocked when they don't, she could get in trouble. See the other thread in dating on assuming exclusivity for a more advanced version of the kind of problem that comes when you assume that your date shares your specific idea of how things work.

Most 16 year olds, male or female, are not going to have "ask permission of the girl's father before asking her to a dance" in their dating repertoire, and would be baffled or derisive of the expectation. And 16 year old guys are not known for suave and formal invitations - casual and kind of awkward is more the expectation at that age. And as you learn from experience, a list of "My guy will X, Y, and Z" is of limited usefulness when it includes things like their expected hobbies. It's her choice to set her own standards, but if she doesn't recognize that some of what she is expecting (asking permission from her father, old-fashioned gender based manners) is going to be hard to find, and others (good tipping manners, adept with small talk with adults) may take a number of years for the young men of her acquaintance to acquire, it will make things harder than they need to be.


Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: EllenS on April 20, 2014, 07:47:27 PM
To me, Jay comes off as a self-absorbed manipulative little piece of carp. Which is not as judgmental as it sounds, as most of us go through that phase at one time or anther.  However, he's sixteen years old, he should be able to negotiate asking a girl on a date without having his Mommy try to MAKE her go. Cuz that's so attractive to girls, right?

DD was perfectly clear the first time she said I am not going to prom.  Whatever he thought, interpreted, imagined, etc is not DD's problem.  For crying out loud, insert something else besides prom in there, and there is obviously no consent. I mean, on paper "I will let you know" or "as I told you before, I am not going to prom with you or anyone else" would be clearer, but that's not the way people really talk.  She did not mislead him.  For him to lay out money on the basis of a conversation that didn't really happen, is at best irrational wishful thinking, and at worst extremely manipulative. It also has no bearing on how adult social etiquette really works.

He said, "let me know if you can go". He knew, when he left that conversation, that she did not intend to go. And he never mentioned it to her again.  How is this appropriate?  Would you cook an elaborate dinner or buy concert tickets for people who said they couldn't come? It's jut not reasonable behavior.

If Jay's mom has the nerve to call again, you can just tell her that DD said no, and Jay's buying ticket's etc is on him. Maybe she should be talking to her son about actually listening to what women tell him.  (I would not say that part to her, of course). DD has nothing to apologize for, and personally I think that encouraging her to apologize for his imaginary conversation, is going to set her a very bad precedent for dealing with men in the adult world, both in business and in dating.  DD needs to have the confidence that yes, she was there, yes she had half of that conversation, and she did not agree to go. You don't want people like Jay making her question what she already knows to be true.

Now, if Jay is going to tell his mom a made-up version of what happened, it's very possible he will tell others also. And yes, there may be people who will think DD was in the wrong, or is being jerky, or whatever. But that's going to happen at some point, in high school. People spread rumors. Innocent people get talked about behind their back. It's just something you have to learn to address. The simplest way is to say, "that is not what happened."

I pity the woman Jay finally decides to propose to if Mommy doesn't back off.
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: veronaz on April 20, 2014, 07:53:33 PM
Wow, great post EllenS.
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: yokozbornak on April 20, 2014, 08:00:53 PM
Your daughter's "no" was pretty clear to me, but it wasn't what he wanted to hear so he go his mommy involved.  You need to have your daughter's back and to NOT placate this jerk and his mommy.  You can't expect your daughter to have a shiny spine when you don't exhibit one yourself.  Show her what a strong woman who stands up for herself looks like, and she will be more likely to model that behavior.  I understand not wanting to hurt someone's feelings, but since he isn't considering hers, I wouldn't be worried about it.

Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: kherbert05 on April 20, 2014, 08:05:06 PM
Your DD told Jay no, and he went and bought tickets anyway, and tried to guilt your DD into going anyway.  Jay then fabricates a wonderful story to his mother, who IMHO, hasn't been very proactive teaching Jay that no means no. Don't pay for the prom ticket, it was bought at a tool of manipulation, IMHO.


This - and given the conservative nature of the school/community I think it would be OK for your DH to call Jay's father and tell him his son is way out of line and needs to leave your daughter alone. (Especially since Jay has his Mom trying to force you into forcing your daughter on a date with a manipulative and unpleasant boy)


If you pay for the ticket you are sending your daughter the message that Jay had the right to expect her to go with him because he said so and spent money on a ticket. Think hard about that message.
 
I think your DD's Ok was more don't engage the crazy and trying to get away from him.


I would tell your daughter to go directly to a staff member and report Jay if he continues to bother her at school.
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: lakey on April 20, 2014, 08:20:31 PM
I  believe that this is something that your DD and Jay should have handled between themselves without Jay's Mom calling you. When it comes to high school dating, these kinds of misunderstandings are very common, as are rejections. It's all part of life and kids need to deal with it, and hopefully learn to handle social issues better so that in the future they are less likely to get into mix ups like this that ends up with hurt feelings.

If Jay asked in the way you worded it, then it came across as more of a "Let's hang out" thing, than a formal date. He may have made it seem that way to protect himself in case of rejection. Then your daughter's "Okay" was also ambiguous. They both need to be a lot more explicit about what they really mean when they communicate.

Other than that, Jay's mom would probably help him more by helping him "Shake it off," than by calling the girl's mom to complain. If he wants to meet girls, he's going to have to deal with some rejection and some disappointment. 
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: miranova on April 20, 2014, 08:32:46 PM
The sticking point to me is that he bought tickets after the first, very clear:  "I'm not going to prom".  We can argue all day long about whether or not "okay" in the 2nd conversation was unclear, but he had already bought the tickets before that happened.  So, the expense of the tickets is absolutely, 100% his responsibility.  There is nothing I hated more in the dating world than when men acted like martyrs for things I had never asked, expected, nor wanted them to purchase.  That is manipulative and if this were my daughter I'd be using this as a teaching moment to talk through Jay's motives in a)purchasing the tickets after she said no and b) TELLING her that he had purchased the tickets.  I'd talk through whether Jay's actions were respectful of her boundaries (saying "no" is a boundary) and how she could better manage this in the future.  I don't FAULT her for not knowing exactly what to say when faced with the 2nd conversation, because I'm sure she wasn't expecting someone she said no to to buy her a ticket.  I'm sure it threw her off guard.  However, this unfortunately will probably not be the last time this happens in her life, so it's good to have some stock answers.

The best thing I have found when I feel like I'm being played in some way but don't want the awkwardness of just saying that, I will voice confusion.  "I'm confused....why did you buy 2 tickets?  Did you find a date?"  I've used this with manipulators in my life with success.  Confusion is more effective and productive than getting angry, even if what they are doing is infuriating.  They will never admit to manipulating you, so it forces them to back down to save face.
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: zyrs on April 20, 2014, 08:40:21 PM
Your daughter owes Jay nothing but this.

"Jay, I told you last Monday that I had babysitting and other plans and was not going to the Prom.  I'm sorry you refused to listen to me and bought tickets anyway, but I am not going to the Prom."

Honestly, even if she were inclined to go to the Prom with him I would advise her not to go anywhere with him.  Involving parents like this is a bully tatic IMO.
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: JenJay on April 20, 2014, 08:59:40 PM
I think she should tell Jay "I apologize if I gave you the impression that I accepted your invitation to prom on Wednesday. I was confused when you said you bought tickets and I didn't mean for my "Okay?" to come across as an acceptance. As I said on Monday, I'm not going to prom."

She does not owe him further explanation or apology, nor should she reimburse him any expenses. If his mom calls again tell her "DD told Jay on Monday that she wasn't available to go to prom. We're sorry that he misunderstood." and nothing more.

If the genders were reversed, there's no way we'd suggest a boy should apologize to an overly aggressive / sneaky girl who wouldn't accept no.

That's a big assumption about me. If the genders were reversed I'd have the exact same advice. I don't see anything wrong with offering an apology for a misunderstanding if there was one, and OP and her DD thought there might have been. I made it very clear that I do not think he or his mother are owed further apology or explanation, and I don't think OP's DD did anything wrong.
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: Jones on April 20, 2014, 09:02:24 PM
If the wording was similar to what was in the OP, and if the boy told his mother that DD wasn't going to prom with him, there was no miscommunication. It was simply a "I don't like that answer so it's time for the parents to get involved and make you come with me."
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: Nemesis on April 20, 2014, 09:09:16 PM
If it were me, I would NOT let my daughter speak to Jay again. He sounds like someone who would emotionally manipulate her into feeling bad and eventually saying yes.

I don't like the idea of my girls mixing with a boy who can't take "no" for an answer.

Your daughter did nothing wrong. He did not ask her out so much as to TELL her to let him know if she is going. This is not asking a girl out. This is SO not asking a girl out.

Jay's mother has some nerve.

This is not a good time to tell a girl to second-guess herself, or that she is somehow obligated to be "nice" even if it means talking to a boy that makes her uncomfortable. If anything, the only thing I would say to her is to make her "No" more decisively and confidently. As for Jay - no, a girl is not obligated to go out with you just because you bought the tickets. He needs to learn to ask directly next time "I would like to go to the prom with you, would you be my date?" This allows the girl to say yes or no to being a date.

If she MUST speak to him, could you be there when she does? All she needs to say is "I will not go to the prom with you. I hope you understand".
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: JenJay on April 20, 2014, 09:09:49 PM
If the wording was similar to what was in the OP, and if the boy told his mother that DD wasn't going to prom with him, there was no miscommunication. It was simply a "I don't like that answer so it's time for the parents to get involved and make you come with me."

I'm not stating that I think DD miscommunicated, I think her answer on Monday was very clear and should have been the end of it. OP's family, including DD, think that her Wednesday answer wasn't clear and may have contributed to a miscommunication. My reply was based on that. If DD thinks she accidentally left Jay with the impression that she might go to prom with him with her "okay?", and she feels badly about that, I think it's okay to apologize for that. She should make very clear, though, that she is not apologizing for backing out, costing him money, standing him up, upsetting him, etc. He did all that on his own.

And yeah, it sounds like Jay absolutely lied to his mom, either because he was embarrassed or upset, or because he didn't want to hear the truth and told her his idealized version of what happened. If I was OP and she contacted me again I'd shut that down immediately. The whole issue with the mom calling was completely out of line.
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: EllenS on April 20, 2014, 09:22:21 PM
The best thing I have found when I feel like I'm being played in some way but don't want the awkwardness of just saying that, I will voice confusion.  "I'm confused....why did you buy 2 tickets?  Did you find a date?"  I've used this with manipulators in my life with success. Confusion is more effective and productive than getting angry, even if what they are doing is infuriating.  They will never admit to manipulating you, so it forces them to back down to save face.

Absolutely.  Naming what is actually happening is always useful, especially with people who are making their own reality.
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: TootsNYC on April 20, 2014, 09:27:15 PM
Saying "OK" on the second just-in-case ask ('cause that's what it was) is most definitely not saying "No."

I agree with his mom (who shouldn't have called you) that she needs to be clear, explicit, and probably apologetic.

"Jay, I'm sorry I wasn't clearer before. I am not going to go to the prom with you or anyone else. I'm busy that night. Good luck finding another date."

Yeah, reading that interaction made me think she'd opened the door to the possibility that she'd be going with him.  I think she should approach Jay in person and apologize for the misunderstanding the other day, but as she told him when he asked originally, she is going to be busy that night.


I think that was pretty manipulative of Jay, to say "let me know if you change your mind," and then act as though her "Okay?" was a yes.

I agree you were out of line ot ask that mother what is it she thinks should happen.

Your daughter should say to Jay, "Listen, I told you the first time you asked that I have definite plans for the prom and am not going. Then you said I should let you know if I changed my mind. I didn't let you know, because I didn't change my mind. I have plans, and a commitment to my babysitting family. I'm not going to prom. And I told you that the first time you asked me.
   "In fact, Jay, you cannot blame me for the fact that you bought tickets and a tux and everything else. I told you I wasn't going. That's on you."

"Oh, and you know what else, Jay? Tell your mother not to call my mother. This is between us, and I'm not going to prom with you. I told you that the first time you asked me. Excuse me, I have to get to class."


I agree w/ Nemesis, to a large degree, and w/ miranova.

I'd want my girl, however, to feel that she could say, "Jay, I told you already, I'm not going to prom. I have a babysitting commitment. I don't understand how you could think that means I'm going to change my mind, and I don't understand why in the world you'd buy tickets with ME in mind. I'm not going to prom. And now I'm not ever going anywhere with you."
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: JenJay on April 20, 2014, 09:30:26 PM
The best thing I have found when I feel like I'm being played in some way but don't want the awkwardness of just saying that, I will voice confusion.  "I'm confused....why did you buy 2 tickets?  Did you find a date?"  I've used this with manipulators in my life with success. Confusion is more effective and productive than getting angry, even if what they are doing is infuriating.  They will never admit to manipulating you, so it forces them to back down to save face.

Absolutely.  Naming what is actually happening is always useful, especially with people who are making their own reality.

I love that! It doesn't assume anything about the other person's intentions, nor does it put you on the spot to agree or decline whatever it is they want. It just takes the awkwardness and puts it right back in the lap of the person who created it.
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: wheeitsme on April 20, 2014, 09:40:16 PM
He asks DD if he could go to prom with her.  She said she wasn't going to prom. 

Later he tells her that he's already bought the tickets.  And could DD tell him if she could go to prom.  (1) She already told him she wasn't going.  (2) She answers "Okay?".  Not "Okay I'll go to prom with you". I'm thinking "Okay, I'll tell you if I end up going", or even "Okay, whatever", or "Okay, I'm going to walk away now".

...and then he rents a tux, makes dinner reservations and calls to ask her dress color?  Uhhh...not okay.  Which your DD made clear.  Again.

And to top it all off, he's told his mother a totally fictitious scenario and gets her to call you to guilt your DD into going with him.

If this is how he interacts with girls, I should hope your DD has set him back.

Perhaps it would be appropriate for your DH to make that clear to him.
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: RegionMom on April 20, 2014, 09:58:56 PM
OP here, and I must say, this thread has given me a lot to think about!

I had not considered that he bought the tickets after she told him no.  Wow. 

And that link about Mythcommuniction- super Wow!!  DD is quiet, but strong.  That article was powerful.  I will not show it to her now, but will take her out for coffee soon and chat, about dating and how to say no for any situation, and about clear communication.

My offering restitution was when the mom was rambling how her son was so hurt and his future may be marred by this.  So I was trying to get a feel of what she wanted- a refund?  a date?  me to play spy on my DD and find out what happened?  She wants DD to talk to her son.  It took her a while, but that is what she wanted. 

So, per her request,  >:D, DD will have a very brief and direct conversation/statement for Jay tomorrow, much like the ideas posted by others, something like-- "I told you I had a babysitting commitment, so why would you buy two tickets?  I am not going to prom.  Sorry if you misunderstood my NO means anything else but no, but I am going to class now.  I do not expect to have this conversation again.  Good bye."

Thanks, guys! 

My little girl is growing up.  Sometimes it does take a village!


Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: JenJay on April 20, 2014, 10:03:19 PM
That's an excellent statement! I hope this is the end of it, but I have a feeling you'll have to straighten his mom out before this is over.  :-\
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: LeveeWoman on April 20, 2014, 10:06:59 PM
OP here, and I must say, this thread has given me a lot to think about!

I had not considered that he bought the tickets after she told him no.  Wow. 

And that link about Mythcommuniction- super Wow!!  DD is quiet, but strong.  That article was powerful.  I will not show it to her now, but will take her out for coffee soon and chat, about dating and how to say no for any situation, and about clear communication.

My offering restitution was when the mom was rambling how her son was so hurt and his future may be marred by this. So I was trying to get a feel of what she wanted- a refund?  a date?  me to play spy on my DD and find out what happened?  She wants DD to talk to her son.  It took her a while, but that is what she wanted. 

So, per her request,  >:D, DD will have a very brief and direct conversation/statement for Jay tomorrow, much like the ideas posted by others, something like-- "I told you I had a babysitting commitment, so why would you buy two tickets?  I am not going to prom.  Sorry if you misunderstood my NO means anything else but no, but I am going to class now.  I do not expect to have this conversation again.  Good bye."

Thanks, guys! 

My little girl is growing up.  Sometimes it does take a village!

I don't know whether to laugh or cry.
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: PastryGoddess on April 20, 2014, 10:08:36 PM
That's an excellent statement! I hope this is the end of it, but I have a feeling you'll have to straighten his mom out before this is over.  :-\

If only to make it clear that she will not be party to her daughters manipulation by Jay.
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: JenJay on April 20, 2014, 10:39:19 PM
That's an excellent statement! I hope this is the end of it, but I have a feeling you'll have to straighten his mom out before this is over.  :-\

If only to make it clear that she will not be party to her daughters manipulation by Jay.

Oh definitely! I meant "straighten out" in the "Your family WILL leave my family alone!" sort of way.
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: MariaE on April 20, 2014, 10:41:27 PM
Sounds like a good plan! Please let us know how it goes?
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: AnnaJane on April 20, 2014, 10:49:58 PM
She thought her son's future would be marred by a girl not going to prom with him?  :o
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: Deetee on April 20, 2014, 11:05:20 PM
Glad to read the update. She said "no" very clearly (if not in those exact words). He didn't want to hear it so

1) Bought tickets after she said she wasn't going.
2) Texted her after she expressed zero enthusiasm or encoyragement .
3) When he couldn't ignore the "no" text, tried to use social pressure to get her to comply.

You are doing your daughter a favor by backing up her "no" and maybe him a favor by pointing out that this does not work. And maybe many other girls a favor.

If someone wants to go with you on a date they let you know. Like the article said agreements are clear and forceful and refusals are generally soft.
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: jedikaiti on April 20, 2014, 11:21:26 PM
Glad to read the update. She said "no" very clearly (if not in those exact words). He didn't want to hear it so

1) Bought tickets after she said she wasn't going.
2) Texted her after she expressed zero enthusiasm or encoyragement .
3) When he couldn't ignore the "no" text, tried to use social parental pressure to get her to comply.

You are doing your daughter a favor by backing up her "no" and maybe him a favor by pointing out that this does not work. And maybe many other girls a favor.

If someone wants to go with you on a date they let you know. Like the article said agreements are clear and forceful and refusals are generally soft.

Not social, parental pressure. I am not sure which is worse, but regardless, he seems very immature.
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: nuit93 on April 20, 2014, 11:30:35 PM
OP here, and I must say, this thread has given me a lot to think about!

I had not considered that he bought the tickets after she told him no.  Wow. 

And that link about Mythcommuniction- super Wow!!  DD is quiet, but strong.  That article was powerful.  I will not show it to her now, but will take her out for coffee soon and chat, about dating and how to say no for any situation, and about clear communication.

My offering restitution was when the mom was rambling how her son was so hurt and his future may be marred by this. So I was trying to get a feel of what she wanted- a refund?  a date?  me to play spy on my DD and find out what happened?  She wants DD to talk to her son.  It took her a while, but that is what she wanted. 

So, per her request,  >:D, DD will have a very brief and direct conversation/statement for Jay tomorrow, much like the ideas posted by others, something like-- "I told you I had a babysitting commitment, so why would you buy two tickets?  I am not going to prom.  Sorry if you misunderstood my NO means anything else but no, but I am going to class now.  I do not expect to have this conversation again.  Good bye."

Thanks, guys! 

My little girl is growing up.  Sometimes it does take a village!

I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

Well, if he doesn't learn how to take no for an answer, his future will definitely be marred.
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: Hillia on April 20, 2014, 11:41:43 PM
OP here, and I must say, this thread has given me a lot to think about!

I had not considered that he bought the tickets after she told him no.  Wow. 

And that link about Mythcommuniction- super Wow!!  DD is quiet, but strong.  That article was powerful.  I will not show it to her now, but will take her out for coffee soon and chat, about dating and how to say no for any situation, and about clear communication.

My offering restitution was when the mom was rambling how her son was so hurt and his future may be marred by this. So I was trying to get a feel of what she wanted- a refund?  a date?  me to play spy on my DD and find out what happened?  She wants DD to talk to her son.  It took her a while, but that is what she wanted. 

So, per her request,  >:D, DD will have a very brief and direct conversation/statement for Jay tomorrow, much like the ideas posted by others, something like-- "I told you I had a babysitting commitment, so why would you buy two tickets?  I am not going to prom.  Sorry if you misunderstood my NO means anything else but no, but I am going to class now.  I do not expect to have this conversation again.  Good bye."

Thanks, guys! 

My little girl is growing up.  Sometimes it does take a village!

I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

Well, if he doesn't learn how to take no for an answer, his future will definitely be marred.

He'll certainly try to blame every future difficulty with women on this interaction. 

My story:  in 1979 I broke up with my first boyfriend...we were both 17 and had dated for less than a year.  It was no big dramatic thing;  I just realized he wasn't a very nice person and didn't want to be around him.  My breakup speech was along the lines of, 'we can still be friends.

Fast forward 45 years.  I am contacted on FB by Boyfriend's wife, also a high school classmate.  She told me that she had left him because of physical and emotional abuse.  He told her that he was 'unable to love anyone' because of the trauma I had inflicted on him when he was 17.  <eyeroll>
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: PastryGoddess on April 21, 2014, 01:18:41 AM
OP here, and I must say, this thread has given me a lot to think about!

I had not considered that he bought the tickets after she told him no.  Wow. 

And that link about Mythcommuniction- super Wow!!  DD is quiet, but strong.  That article was powerful.  I will not show it to her now, but will take her out for coffee soon and chat, about dating and how to say no for any situation, and about clear communication.

My offering restitution was when the mom was rambling how her son was so hurt and his future may be marred by this. So I was trying to get a feel of what she wanted- a refund?  a date?  me to play spy on my DD and find out what happened?  She wants DD to talk to her son.  It took her a while, but that is what she wanted. 

So, per her request,  >:D, DD will have a very brief and direct conversation/statement for Jay tomorrow, much like the ideas posted by others, something like-- "I told you I had a babysitting commitment, so why would you buy two tickets?  I am not going to prom.  Sorry if you misunderstood my NO means anything else but no, but I am going to class now.  I do not expect to have this conversation again.  Good bye."

Thanks, guys! 

My little girl is growing up.  Sometimes it does take a village!

I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

Well, if he doesn't learn how to take no for an answer, his future will definitely be marred.

He'll certainly try to blame every future difficulty with women on this interaction. 

My story:  in 1979 I broke up with my first boyfriend...we were both 17 and had dated for less than a year.  It was no big dramatic thing;  I just realized he wasn't a very nice person and didn't want to be around him.  My breakup speech was along the lines of, 'we can still be friends.

Fast forward 45 years.  I am contacted on FB by Boyfriend's wife, also a high school classmate.  She told me that she had left him because of physical and emotional abuse.  He told her that he was 'unable to love anyone' because of the trauma I had inflicted on him when he was 17.  <eyeroll>

Oh lord!  My eyes would have rolled so hard they would have fallen out. 
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: nuit93 on April 21, 2014, 01:33:55 AM
OP here, and I must say, this thread has given me a lot to think about!

I had not considered that he bought the tickets after she told him no.  Wow. 

And that link about Mythcommuniction- super Wow!!  DD is quiet, but strong.  That article was powerful.  I will not show it to her now, but will take her out for coffee soon and chat, about dating and how to say no for any situation, and about clear communication.

My offering restitution was when the mom was rambling how her son was so hurt and his future may be marred by this. So I was trying to get a feel of what she wanted- a refund?  a date?  me to play spy on my DD and find out what happened?  She wants DD to talk to her son.  It took her a while, but that is what she wanted. 

So, per her request,  >:D, DD will have a very brief and direct conversation/statement for Jay tomorrow, much like the ideas posted by others, something like-- "I told you I had a babysitting commitment, so why would you buy two tickets?  I am not going to prom.  Sorry if you misunderstood my NO means anything else but no, but I am going to class now.  I do not expect to have this conversation again.  Good bye."

Thanks, guys! 

My little girl is growing up.  Sometimes it does take a village!

I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

Well, if he doesn't learn how to take no for an answer, his future will definitely be marred.

He'll certainly try to blame every future difficulty with women on this interaction. 

My story:  in 1979 I broke up with my first boyfriend...we were both 17 and had dated for less than a year.  It was no big dramatic thing;  I just realized he wasn't a very nice person and didn't want to be around him.  My breakup speech was along the lines of, 'we can still be friends.

Fast forward 45 years.  I am contacted on FB by Boyfriend's wife, also a high school classmate.  She told me that she had left him because of physical and emotional abuse.  He told her that he was 'unable to love anyone' because of the trauma I had inflicted on him when he was 17.  <eyeroll>

Sounds like you dodged one heck of a bullet!
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: Kiwichick on April 21, 2014, 04:41:55 AM
You should have cut the mother off as soon as she had the story out, told her that you would speak to your daughter and have her sort it out with Jay.  You shouldn't have let her ramble on nor offered any solution particularly since you didn't know your daughter's side of the story.

I think your daughter clearly said 'no' the first day.  Her 'okay' in response to 'let me know if you can go' didn't change her no.  I agree that you should be very clear with your daughter that none of Jay's upset is her fault.

I like what your daughter plans to say to Jay, there's no way he can mistake that!
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: Yvaine on April 21, 2014, 05:57:41 AM
She thought her son's future would be marred by a girl not going to prom with him?  :o

Well, obviously it'll go on his Permanent Record(tm).  ;)
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: Piratelvr1121 on April 21, 2014, 06:26:14 AM
OP here, and I must say, this thread has given me a lot to think about!

I had not considered that he bought the tickets after she told him no.  Wow. 

And that link about Mythcommuniction- super Wow!!  DD is quiet, but strong.  That article was powerful.  I will not show it to her now, but will take her out for coffee soon and chat, about dating and how to say no for any situation, and about clear communication.

My offering restitution was when the mom was rambling how her son was so hurt and his future may be marred by this. So I was trying to get a feel of what she wanted- a refund?  a date?  me to play spy on my DD and find out what happened?  She wants DD to talk to her son.  It took her a while, but that is what she wanted. 

So, per her request,  >:D, DD will have a very brief and direct conversation/statement for Jay tomorrow, much like the ideas posted by others, something like-- "I told you I had a babysitting commitment, so why would you buy two tickets?  I am not going to prom.  Sorry if you misunderstood my NO means anything else but no, but I am going to class now.  I do not expect to have this conversation again.  Good bye."

Thanks, guys! 

My little girl is growing up.  Sometimes it does take a village!

I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

Well, if he doesn't learn how to take no for an answer, his future will definitely be marred.

He'll certainly try to blame every future difficulty with women on this interaction. 

My story:  in 1979 I broke up with my first boyfriend...we were both 17 and had dated for less than a year.  It was no big dramatic thing;  I just realized he wasn't a very nice person and didn't want to be around him.  My breakup speech was along the lines of, 'we can still be friends.

Fast forward 45 years.  I am contacted on FB by Boyfriend's wife, also a high school classmate.  She told me that she had left him because of physical and emotional abuse.  He told her that he was 'unable to love anyone' because of the trauma I had inflicted on him when he was 17.  <eyeroll>

Sounds like you dodged one heck of a bullet!

Sounds like he told quite an exagerrated story. Someone I knew in college told all his friends that a girlfriend he had in high school went to England with her family and was struck by a double decker bus while over there, and perished and it really wrecked him emotionally.  Now, looking back, I don't know why we bought this story other than naivete but bought it we did and sometime last year his stbxwife told us he'd confessed to having made it up and the girl had just been someone he knew from class.   They hadn't even dated and the only true part was that she had moved to England with her family.

Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: JoyinVirginia on April 21, 2014, 07:08:00 AM
Why do I have feeling that Jay will get mommy to call again?
When she calls again op, do not allow her to ramble on. Say ” daughter us not going to prom and never told Jay she would go. she discussed this with him. gotta go, bye now!”
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: ThistleBird on April 21, 2014, 07:20:14 AM
She thought her son's future would be marred by a girl not going to prom with him?  :o

Yeah, tells us a little about where he got his entitled "This girl will go to prom with me because I say so" attitude!
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: LeveeWoman on April 21, 2014, 07:21:06 AM
OP here, and I must say, this thread has given me a lot to think about!

I had not considered that he bought the tickets after she told him no.  Wow. 

And that link about Mythcommuniction- super Wow!!  DD is quiet, but strong.  That article was powerful.  I will not show it to her now, but will take her out for coffee soon and chat, about dating and how to say no for any situation, and about clear communication.

My offering restitution was when the mom was rambling how her son was so hurt and his future may be marred by this. So I was trying to get a feel of what she wanted- a refund?  a date?  me to play spy on my DD and find out what happened?  She wants DD to talk to her son.  It took her a while, but that is what she wanted. 

So, per her request,  >:D, DD will have a very brief and direct conversation/statement for Jay tomorrow, much like the ideas posted by others, something like-- "I told you I had a babysitting commitment, so why would you buy two tickets?  I am not going to prom.  Sorry if you misunderstood my NO means anything else but no, but I am going to class now.  I do not expect to have this conversation again.  Good bye."

Thanks, guys! 

My little girl is growing up.  Sometimes it does take a village!

I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

Well, if he doesn't learn how to take no for an answer, his future will definitely be marred.

If his mother continues to intervene in his life to this degree, she will be the one who mars his life.

I hope RegionMom's daughter learns that it's not her place to assuage a boy's hurt feelings when he is the one who set up the situation.
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: GratefulMaria on April 21, 2014, 07:55:43 AM
Send this link to Jay and his mother - http://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2011/03/21/mythcommunication-its-not-that-they-dont-understand-they-just-dont-like-the-answer/

Tell your daughter not to worry about it, it's their problem, not hers.

If Jay's mother still has problems, point out a simple truth to her - it's not a matter of 'well she didn't say no clearly enough', it's a matter of 'she never said yes'.

I love the link.  DH and I raised our sons, now 21 and 24, with "No means no.  Not-yes means no."
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: Winterlight on April 21, 2014, 08:41:28 AM
OP here, and I must say, this thread has given me a lot to think about!

I had not considered that he bought the tickets after she told him no.  Wow. 

And that link about Mythcommuniction- super Wow!!  DD is quiet, but strong.  That article was powerful.  I will not show it to her now, but will take her out for coffee soon and chat, about dating and how to say no for any situation, and about clear communication.

My offering restitution was when the mom was rambling how her son was so hurt and his future may be marred by this.  So I was trying to get a feel of what she wanted- a refund?  a date?  me to play spy on my DD and find out what happened?  She wants DD to talk to her son.  It took her a while, but that is what she wanted. 

So, per her request,  >:D, DD will have a very brief and direct conversation/statement for Jay tomorrow, much like the ideas posted by others, something like-- "I told you I had a babysitting commitment, so why would you buy two tickets?  I am not going to prom.  Sorry if you misunderstooddecided my NO means anything else but no, that's on you. I am going to class now.  I do not expect to have this conversation again.  Good bye."

Thanks, guys! 

My little girl is growing up.  Sometimes it does take a village!

Couple of mild edits. She has nothing to apologize for here. Jay is a jerk and his mother needs to remove her propellers post-haste.
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: Deetee on April 21, 2014, 09:14:10 AM
Glad to read the update. She said "no" very clearly (if not in those exact words). He didn't want to hear it so

1) Bought tickets after she said she wasn't going.
2) Texted her after she expressed zero enthusiasm or encoyragement .
3) When he couldn't ignore the "no" text, tried to use social parental pressure to get her to comply.

You are doing your daughter a favor by backing up her "no" and maybe him a favor by pointing out that this does not work. And maybe many other girls a favor.

If someone wants to go with you on a date they let you know. Like the article said agreements are clear and forceful and refusals are generally soft.

Not social, parental pressure. I am not sure which is worse, but regardless, he seems very immature.

I classified the parental pressure as social pressure as I had just read an article on the difference between being socially awkward (so you don't get social cues) and trying to use a label of social awkward to pressure girls. The second included a recourse to getting other people to pressure a girl into dating. 

My phone doesn't want to link but I'll pull that up later on my computer.
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: Twik on April 21, 2014, 09:17:29 AM
A good learning experience for DD, I think, in dealing with this sort of person (or with pushy MLM sellers, I suppose). They will try to twist any sort of agreement into a complete accord with their desires ("I wonder if you'd like to buy this widget. By the way, isn't it a nice day?" "Yes, I guess." "YOU SAID YES! Sign on this line, right here!").

Anyone (male or female) who calls upon their parents to "make" someone else date them is too immature to be dating. Teen dating is a vicious world of ecstasy and heartbreak, and we all pick up some scars from it. Most of us deal with it.
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: dawbs on April 21, 2014, 09:23:07 AM
The ONLY saving grace I can imagine for this boy is him to approach DD and say something along the lines of :
"ZOMG, I am so so sorry that my mom called.  I told her we weren't going together but that I bought 2 tickets.   What I said and what she heard are 2 different things.  I'm mortified she's interfering and wanted to say I'm sorry"

I think this boy was not handling it well...but I also know that sometimes what moms do isn't sanctioned by the child.
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: wolfie on April 21, 2014, 09:24:53 AM
I think your dd's expectations for dating aren't in line with what the majority of people expect from dating and she needs to be more upfront about that with prospective dates. For me if someone asked my dad for permission to date me that would make it an automatic no because I want to be the gatekeeper for my dating life - not defer that to my parents. It would make me feel like I wasn't respected as a part of the relationship - that it was between my dad and my dad and my opinion does not matter as much. Is that something she expects going forward? Or only because she is still a minor? Because I am thinking that most of my male friends wouldn't want to ask a father's permission just to start dating. It feels very intrusive. Also what would she do if her dad said no?

In any event if that is what she wants then that is what she wants but she should be aware that she is the outlier there and needs to explicitly state those expectations or she will be very disappointed in the future.
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: Jones on April 21, 2014, 09:34:53 AM
I'm sure if DD had wanted to date Jay, she would have asked him to talk to her dad before she could say yes. I had certain dating standards as a teen, not these same standards but they were outside the norm, and if a prospective date didn't listen to my standard he didn't date me. If I didn't feel I could tell him those standards, it certainly didn't bode well for a future relationsh*p either.
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: mich3554 on April 21, 2014, 10:54:25 AM
I think that this is a very good lesson for your daughter.

When she said that she had plans, it sounded like she was justifying not going rather than saying "NO" flat out.  When he told her that he was going to buy tickets anyway, she should have reiterated "NO" and not said "okay".

Most of us here understand her intentions, but sometimes you just need to not justify your actions and say "NO" without justification.  Isn't that what many advocate here?

And yes, I have dealt with this problem myself when I would get asked out repeatedly by someone that I didn't want anything to do with.  At first, I tried to be nice about it but quickly realized that being nice wasn't helping me, it was encouraging him.  So it is a fine line that you walk to give a strong "NO" and not be totally rude about it.  But a flat out "NO" with no justification is what worked for me.  That way, the guy could not rationalize a "maybe" in his mind.
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: Klein Bottle on April 21, 2014, 11:10:26 AM
I was feeling a little outraged on your daughter's behalf.  That first "I'm not going" sounds clear as crystal to me, so I read your post to my son, age 17, to get his "expert" opinion.  Sometimes, I think high school kids speak a secret coded language we can only barely comprehend.   ::)  This is his take:

Jay sounds like a "creeper", and your daughter's first answer was not in the least ambiguous.  As far as the second exchange goes, her "Okay?" is to be interpreted as, "Um, yeah, and you are telling me this because...?"  Your daughter was probably at a loss for what to say, as the question had already been asked and answered, the invitation graciously declined.

We are both also rather amused that Jay's mom got in on the action.  Your typical teen boy would be mortified that his mom has any part in arranging his social life. 

RegionMom, I hope your daughter will stay strong.  She does not owe an apology for anything, and your family should certainly not be reimbursing Jay for tickets to a prom your daughter stated she was not attending. 

And Jay really, really needs to learn what "no" means. 

PS--I see by your update that she is going to talk to him.  That will be great, if she uses the language laid out in your post. 
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: TootsNYC on April 21, 2014, 11:45:53 AM
I think your dd's expectations for dating aren't in line with what the majority of people expect from dating and she needs to be more upfront about that with prospective dates. For me if someone asked my dad for permission to date me that would make it an automatic no because I want to be the gatekeeper for my dating life - not defer that to my parents. It would make me feel like I wasn't respected as a part of the relationship - that it was between my dad and my dad and my opinion does not matter as much. Is that something she expects going forward? Or only because she is still a minor? Because I am thinking that most of my male friends wouldn't want to ask a father's permission just to start dating. It feels very intrusive. Also what would she do if her dad said no?

In any event if that is what she wants then that is what she wants but she should be aware that she is the outlier there and needs to explicitly state those expectations or she will be very disappointed in the future.

However, I'm wondering if her idea is that the boy would say, "want to go to prom?" and she'd say, "would you ask my dad if it's OK to ask me out?"

Then she'll get what she wants. It would really surprise me if a boy's going to Dad for permission to date her was a surprise to HER.

In other words, this:
I'm sure if DD had wanted to date Jay, she would have asked him to talk to her dad before she could say yes. I had certain dating standards as a teen, not these same standards but they were outside the norm, and if a prospective date didn't listen to my standard he didn't date me. If I didn't feel I could tell him those standards, it certainly didn't bode well for a future relationsh*p either.

Wild One, I love that you asked your son, and that you brought us his response. Nice to hear from a member of the cohort that this is creepy.
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: Eeep! on April 21, 2014, 12:07:26 PM
I agree with the people who say that your DD was pretty darn clear.  I think that even if you take her "okay?" as an "okay!" the only question she was answering was the "let me know if you can go?".   And an answer to that in the affirmative is in no way a "OK, actually, I will go to prom with you."
For instance, if I had this conversation with my friend:

Friend: Want to go see a movie this Saturday?
Me: Oh sorry, I've got plans
Friend: OK, well let me know if things change and you can go
Me: OK.

I don't know anyone who would then turn around and think that I said I was going to to the movies with her.
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: Kimblee on April 21, 2014, 12:13:03 PM
OP here, and I must say, this thread has given me a lot to think about!

I had not considered that he bought the tickets after she told him no.  Wow. 

And that link about Mythcommuniction- super Wow!!  DD is quiet, but strong.  That article was powerful.  I will not show it to her now, but will take her out for coffee soon and chat, about dating and how to say no for any situation, and about clear communication.

My offering restitution was when the mom was rambling how her son was so hurt and his future may be marred by this. So I was trying to get a feel of what she wanted- a refund?  a date?  me to play spy on my DD and find out what happened?  She wants DD to talk to her son.  It took her a while, but that is what she wanted. 

So, per her request,  >:D, DD will have a very brief and direct conversation/statement for Jay tomorrow, much like the ideas posted by others, something like-- "I told you I had a babysitting commitment, so why would you buy two tickets?  I am not going to prom.  Sorry if you misunderstood my NO means anything else but no, but I am going to class now.  I do not expect to have this conversation again.  Good bye."

Thanks, guys! 

My little girl is growing up.  Sometimes it does take a village!

I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

Well, if he doesn't learn how to take no for an answer, his future will definitely be marred.

He'll certainly try to blame every future difficulty with women on this interaction. 

My story:  in 1979 I broke up with my first boyfriend...we were both 17 and had dated for less than a year.  It was no big dramatic thing;  I just realized he wasn't a very nice person and didn't want to be around him.  My breakup speech was along the lines of, 'we can still be friends.

Fast forward 45 years.  I am contacted on FB by Boyfriend's wife, also a high school classmate.  She told me that she had left him because of physical and emotional abuse.  He told her that he was 'unable to love anyone' because of the trauma I had inflicted on him when he was 17.  <eyeroll>

I wouldn't be surprised. My high school boyfriend (who I broke it off with because he needed a lot of attention from me and my stepdad was dying in the hospital so I couldn't give it to him) when we reconnected tried to convince me to be his "On the side" while he stayed with his current girlfriend.

When I refused he tried to guilt be by saying that I "broke his heart" and "ruined his teen years" by breaking up with him. Because GUILT TRIPS get you laid?

OP: Your daughter sounds like a smart girl, but keep an eye out. jay may not take no for an answer and may keep trying to harass her,
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: gellchom on April 21, 2014, 01:26:04 PM
I'm probably going to bring down the wrath of ehell here, but here goes ...

First, let me stress that DD absolutely doesn't have to go to the prom with Jay or pay for the ticket or anything else.  I don't think she did anything wrong, although she could have been clearer.  If I were her mom, I'd advise her to tell Jay what others have advised, something like, "I'm really sorry about the misunderstanding, but I won't be going to the prom.  I hope you have a good time."  Not because she has anything to apologize for it, just because it's the kind way to handle it.

And I understand that here at ehell, we all want to be supportive of the OPs and take their recounting of events as absolutely accurate and all ambiguities to be resolved definitively in the OPs' favor.

My concern is the rush that so many posters have to label this boy as a creeper, a stalker, a manipulator, potentially dangerous, going to lie about her to others, going to blame women for everything forever, and I don't know what all else, and to assume all kinds of facts that, rereading the OP's posts, aren't even there.  For example: several people take Jay to task for "getting his mother to call the OP" -- maybe I missed it, but I didn't see anything at all that suggested that he even knew she was calling the OP.  It is at least as likely that he would be totally mortified if he knew.

I don't say -- at all!!!-- that either the OP or her daughter is lying or misrepresenting the exchanges.  But I had teenagers at home not all that long ago -- a boy and a girl -- and I know that they don't always remember and recount things exactly as they happened.  Adults, too.  It's human nature that we remember things in the best light for ourselves (have you ever heard two people recount the same argument?  It's a staple of sitcoms).  The conversations in this story may not have been precisely as we are hearing them third-hand, and we don't know any other context, either. 

Another assumption some posters made is that when she said "okay" in the second conversation, it was clearly an "...okay?" that meant "huh?", not "Oh, well, okay then" -- or even that it reasonably could have sounded like that to an optimistic teenage boy.  At best, it certainly wasn't an adequate way to communicate, "No, I'm sorry for any misunderstanding, but as I told you, I will not be going to the prom" -- which she could have said in just those words. 

I think that his hearing her "okay" as the "yes" he was hoping for is quite possible because she gave him the reason that she was babysitting the first time -- not that that wasn't okay (I think it was great), but it gives a clue to how he would interpret "okay."  As we have often discussed here, sometimes that sounds to people as if you mean, "I would love to, but there's this impediment, but if I can get out of it, I might."  (This is a very typical problem that people have with friends who have trouble saying no -- they think that they should help solve the stated problem.)  That's why we tell people to be polite but clear when declining, as several people have suggested as the takeaway lesson for DD, too.

Like others, I feel that of course DD has every right to have any rules she wants for her dates.  But also like others, I think that it is really unrealistic for her to expect others to know that she doesn't consider something a date unless the guy asks her father for permission.  I have never seen that even once in my own or my kids' teen years -- frankly, to me, that would seem a little off -- it wouldn't feel so much like courtliness as make me wonder what level of importance this kid was expecting this date to have.  If he asked her dad before even asking her, that would seem very presumptuous and even kind of creepy to me, but there's nothing that suggests that that's what she means.  Well, I hope not -- but she said that she didn't think it was a real request for a date because he hadn't asked her father, right?  So wouldn't that have to have happened first?  Or possibly she only said that later to her mom when she was justifying herself?

Let me repeat, if that's the way she wants to approach dating, fine.  I'm only bringing it up as an example of something of a disconnect between her and Jay at the get-go -- a pretty major one, in fact. 

So why assume that Jay is a horrible sicko, when it's just as possible that these are both inexperienced kids who just didn't listen to each other well and didn't communicate clearly, maybe not equally, but so what?  Does someone have to be the bad guy in every situation?

As someone else pointed out upthread, we often say that it's important not to assume the worst motives.  Especially, I would think, with children.
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: Garden Goblin on April 21, 2014, 01:52:04 PM
So why assume that Jay is a horrible sicko

Please quote where this assumption was made.

Quote
My concern is the rush that so many posters have to label this boy as a creeper, a stalker, a manipulator, potentially dangerous

I'd like to see your reasoning for why his behavior does not qualify as 'manipulative'.
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: LeveeWoman on April 21, 2014, 02:00:27 PM
I think that his hearing her "okay" as the "yes" he was hoping for is quite possible because she gave him the reason that she was babysitting the first time -- not that that wasn't okay (I think it was great), but it gives a clue to how he would interpret "okay."  As we have often discussed here, sometimes that sounds to people as if you mean, "I would love to, but there's this impediment, but if I can get out of it, I might."

She said the first time that she was not going.
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: lisztchick on April 21, 2014, 02:15:52 PM
Regarding DD's father's permission for dating:

While it's true that one teenager asking another teenager's father for "permission" to date her is not a societal norm amongst teenagers, bear in mind that neither is The Prom. It's not your average date. The prom is not the sort of event where the guy drives up, toots his horn, and out the girl runs. This is an event that (anymore, it seems!) requires considerable expenditure for all parties involved: dress, tux, tickets, corsage, dinner....I don't know what-all! (And if I were a boy like the one in this situation, I would make certain that I had an emphatic "yes" to my invitation before I spent money....particularly if this was a girl that I wasn't currently dating and barely knew!) The prom is also an event where teenagers may be out several hours later than an average date. There are after-prom events parties that may be attended. I don't know if I'd require a boy to ask my permission prior to asking my daughter to the prom, but I'd certainly want to meet him before he had my daughter out all night! I don't think it's an unreasonable expectation to meet the parents before the event, discuss your plans, transportation, etc.  Perhaps OP's daughter was thinking more along the lines of something like this?
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: wolfie on April 21, 2014, 02:19:10 PM
Regarding DD's father's permission for dating:

While it's true that one teenager asking another teenager's father for "permission" to date her is not a societal norm amongst teenagers, bear in mind that neither is The Prom. It's not your average date. The prom is not the sort of event where the guy drives up, toots his horn, and out the girl runs. This is an event that (anymore, it seems!) requires considerable expenditure for all parties involved: dress, tux, tickets, corsage, dinner....I don't know what-all! (And if I were a boy like the one in this situation, I would make certain that I had an emphatic "yes" to my invitation before I spent money....particularly if this was a girl that I wasn't currently dating and barely knew!) The prom is also an event where teenagers may be out several hours later than an average date. There are after-prom events parties that may be attended. I don't know if I'd require a boy to ask my permission prior to asking my daughter to the prom, but I'd certainly want to meet him before he had my daughter out all night! I don't think it's an unreasonable expectation to meet the parents before the event, discuss your plans, transportation, etc.  Perhaps OP's daughter was thinking more along the lines of something like this?

I was set up with a friend of a friend for the Prom - no singles were allowed to go in my school. So a friend just had a friend who was a guy and the two of us went "together" so I could go. No meeting of the parents took place. And while i saw the guy when interacting with friends we didn't really have a relationship again. So i wouldn't put that much on this being an extra special type of date - it wasn't in my experience.
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: YoginiSaysYes on April 21, 2014, 02:33:40 PM
My votes go with the consensus!

1) DD was not in the wrong, could maybe have been a little clearer during the second interaction but in no way shape or form is she remotely responsible for Jay's misguided hopes.

2) Jay sounds exactly like the kind of teenage boy one would deem a "creeper". This doesn't mean he's necessarily a bad person, but that he is a (still young!) boy who is perhaps so wrapped up in the idea of "getting a girl" that he'll steamroll over "no"s in attempts to get what he wants. Many boys outgrow the creeper stage, some do not. All those hormones raging about, things can get dicey. (This applies to girls as well, obviously. In high school my friends and I decided the female equivalent of a creeper is a clinger.)

3) Total speculation, but my guess is that Jay told his mom that DD said yes and he bought the tickets, and then when he realized she really wasn't going to go with him, he concocted the story to save face and Mama Bear went ragin'. I doubt he knew about the call, but maybe he did.

I can't wait for an update!
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: Alli8098 on April 21, 2014, 02:35:02 PM
I don't think the issue here is that the daughter has different dating customs that may not be the social norm.  The issue is that she said no and Jay is pushing the issue.  No matter what dating customs a teenager goes by no means no.
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: Yvaine on April 21, 2014, 02:36:21 PM
My votes go with the consensus!

1) DD was not in the wrong, could maybe have been a little clearer during the second interaction but in no way shape or form is she remotely responsible for Jay's misguided hopes.

2) Jay sounds exactly like the kind of teenage boy one would deem a "creeper". This doesn't mean he's necessarily a bad person, but that he is a (still young!) boy who is perhaps so wrapped up in the idea of "getting a girl" that he'll steamroll over "no"s in attempts to get what he wants. Many boys outgrow the creeper stage, some do not. All those hormones raging about, things can get dicey. (This applies to girls as well, obviously. In high school my friends and I decided the female equivalent of a creeper is a clinger.)

3) Total speculation, but my guess is that Jay told his mom that DD said yes and he bought the tickets, and then when he realized she really wasn't going to go with him, he concocted the story to save face and Mama Bear went ragin'. I doubt he knew about the call, but maybe he did.

I can't wait for an update!

I agree. He's in the wrong now, he's doing something that's inappropriate now by trying to rules-lawyer her "okay???" into a yes, and that need not mean he's an evil predator forever or anything. And I totally agree with your guess as to why his mom is getting involved; he's trying to save face about the waste of money and probably told her a rather altered version of the truth.
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: pierrotlunaire0 on April 21, 2014, 02:43:07 PM
I would lay odds that Jay's mom does call.  It bothered me that Region Mom obviously had no idea what she was talking about, but Jay's mom would not let it go, but kept going on and on about the damage DD had caused by changing her answer to yes.

Jay may simply be very immature and is making poor decisions, but his mother's behavior is the one sliding into the inappropriate area.  If the kids in question were both 11, then ok, but not now.
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: YoginiSaysYes on April 21, 2014, 02:45:40 PM
That's a very good point. In this whole situation I'd say Mama Jay is probably even more wrong than Jay. If she had not called, what would have happened? Would Jay have asked her again? Probably not.
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: artk2002 on April 21, 2014, 04:14:30 PM
Jay may simply be very immature and is making poor decisions, but his mother's behavior is the one sliding into the inappropriate area.  If the kids in question were both 11, then ok, but not now.

She is inappropriate, but he went there first. After the OP's DD said "no," that should have been the end of it. The follow-up with "I've bought tickets, let me know if you change your mind" is inappropriate and manipulative. It's a blatant attempt to guilt the DD into going; after all, he's spent the money, so she owes it to him to go. Sadly, that's the way a lot of people think.
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: gellchom on April 21, 2014, 04:46:29 PM
I forgot to include in my post that, yes, Jay should've taken no for an answer.  He did push too much -- although we can't be sure that he only bought the tickets to pressure her.  I can easily imagine him having bought them in hopes of finding some date, and asking her again either before trying others or after striking out elsewhere.  Anyway, trying to get someone to change their mind is pushy, but it's not the worst thing I've ever heard of a kid doing.  "No" means "no," but it doesn't mean "And you can't ever ask again."  It's possible, especially given her chivalrous views on dating, that he guessed incorrectly that she believes a lady should be coaxed and not say yes right away.  Who knows.  Kids are ... kids.

But even though I suppose it is fair to call his pushiness in trying to get her to change her mind "manipulative," I don't think that makes him A Manipulator, much less a "creeper," just as the girl's responses might be called unclear or at most misleading or wishy-washy, but it would be unfair to accuse her of leading him on or to call her a user or a tease.

There simply isn't any need to label anyone or make anyone the bad guy.  These are just two high school kids.  Their social and communication skills are still developing.  As we see.

I wonder if this is yet another example of people who are uncomfortable with simply saying no needing to make the asker bad, wrong, or rude (or worse) in some way in order to feel comfortable with someone's saying "no."
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: LadyL on April 21, 2014, 05:17:06 PM

But even though I suppose it is fair to call his pushiness in trying to get her to change her mind "manipulative," I don't think that makes him A Manipulator, much less a "creeper," just as the girl's responses might be called unclear or at most misleading or wishy-washy, but it would be unfair to accuse her of leading him on or to call her a user or a tease.

There simply isn't any need to label anyone or make anyone the bad guy.  These are just two high school kids.  Their social and communication skills are still developing.  As we see.


Yes, acting manipulative is not the same as being A Manipulator, and acting like a creeper does not mean BEING a creeper. (I consider those labels more appropriate for repeated and near-pathological behavior). Jake was inappropriate, Jake's mom was WAY inappropriate, and RegionMom's daughter was mostly fine but is getting a crash course in why a spine of steel is important when dealing with ANY manipulative or creepy behavior.
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: Garden Goblin on April 21, 2014, 05:20:50 PM
I wonder if this is yet another example of people who are uncomfortable with simply saying no needing to make the asker bad, wrong, or rude (or worse) in some way in order to feel comfortable with someone's saying "no."

Please read the article I cited earlier. 
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: TootsNYC on April 21, 2014, 05:25:17 PM

I wonder if this is yet another example of people who are uncomfortable with simply saying no needing to make the asker bad, wrong, or rude (or worse) in some way in order to feel comfortable with someone's saying "no."


I don't think so--because the person in the actual situation, who actually said "no" (in a way that wasn't all that roundabout), isn't vilifying Jay.
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: gellchom on April 21, 2014, 05:48:03 PM
I agree, Toots, the person in the original story wasn't. That's not really who I was talking about.  I meant some of the posts in this discussion, and others like it, in general.

Indeed, look at the title of the original post: it clearly indicates that her mom is simply asking whether her daughter's response was strong, or I suppose clear, enough. That is a good question. I think most of us feel that the daughter didn't do anything wrong, but she could have been more clear, and this experience will help her understand why that's important.
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: Garden Goblin on April 21, 2014, 05:59:51 PM
I think most of us feel that the daughter didn't do anything wrong, but she could have been more clear, and this experience will help her understand why that's important.

She was perfectly clear.  He understood the answer.  He just didn't like it, so he ignored it.
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: TootsNYC on April 21, 2014, 06:18:37 PM
And this will be good practice for this:

Quote
I tell my niece, “if a guy offers to buy you a drink and you say no, and he pesters you until you say okay, what he wants for his money is to find out if you can be talked out of no.” . . . the purpose of setting clear boundaries is not to be understood — that’s not a problem — but to be understood to be too hard a target.

Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom? update 102
Post by: RegionMom on April 21, 2014, 06:59:38 PM
UPDATE-----

I very briefly spoke to DD on phone right after school, in-between piano students, to mention something about the vehicle, and asked, as an aside, how the conversation went.

"It was not a conversation.  It was, like, two seconds.  He is fine."

When I got home about 30 minutes ago, I went to her room, but she is busy studying/texting.

She told me just a bit, but mostly, she did NOT use the words, "I'm sorry."  She did say babysitting.  I asked if the word "mom" was spoken.  She said that she told him that his mom called me, and that was just weird.  He seemed to agree, and said that his mom should not have called.  DD said he was fine, no drama. 

DS remembered something from last year about this mom-  our HS has each senior present a large "project" before an audience.  This mom took one girl's presentation as her personal whipping boy and interrupted several times, claiming expertise in the field, and that the girl was wrong!!!
I had forgotten (was not there) but I DO recall hearing how mortified other adults were, and how poised the senior girl was while listening to the aggressive rant. 

So, I think I have met a crazy, and fully do NOT plan to engage her in any way, shape, or form!!

My DS, a senior, did say that Jay is nice enough, works hard at academics, but is rather clueless to social cues.  He talks to hear himself talk, and will run a subject to. the. ground. and. will. not. stop. talking!!  Which means, he does not listen to others.

So, Jay does not seem a creeper, just clueless.  And mom is crazy.

As for the dating future of DD, her "boyfriend" turns 18 this summer, so that may change things around here!

But, she was right in that for PROM, at this school that has a history of making the invite A Big Deal (songs, signs, flowers, etc...) a casual asking at a locker was just not up to par. 

And, no means no.   :D





Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom? update 102
Post by: DavidH on April 21, 2014, 07:57:37 PM
Reading it, the first answer your daughter gave seemed pretty clear to me.  The second, was a particularly unfortunate choice, since it was easy to misinterpret to hear what he wanted to hear.  Not saying he was right to buy tickets, but asking again seems pretty benign, since the first no could either be interpreted as "I didn't want to go, so I booked other things" or, "I hadn't planned on going, so I booked other things, but I might reconsider".  If the second is how he interpreted it, then a simple question along the lines of I know you hadn't planned on going and had made other plans, are you still sure you're not going would have been much more reasonable. 

His mother sounds crazy.  I'm not sure why we all assigned her decision to call to him.  I can't imagine any teenage boy asking his more to call the parents of a girl who declined his invitation to prom since very few things would be more embarrassing than that. 

The expectation that a guy will ask her father whether he can ask her on a date is highly unusual.  Particularly in college, it is impractical at best to figure out how to contact a girl's parents before asking her out. I have never heard of it happening that way.  My parents, who were going on HS dates in the 1950's said it wouldn't have happened that way then either. 
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom? update 102
Post by: Cz. Burrito on April 21, 2014, 08:09:08 PM
Glad to hear that Jay gets it! Too bad about his mom. He must be a bit mortified that she called...
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom? update 102
Post by: sammycat on April 21, 2014, 08:15:50 PM
Reading it, the first answer your daughter gave seemed pretty clear to me.  The second, was a particularly unfortunate choice, since it was easy to misinterpret to hear what he wanted to hear.  Not saying he was right to buy tickets, but asking again seems pretty benign, since the first no could either be interpreted as "I didn't want to go, so I booked other things" or, "I hadn't planned on going, so I booked other things, but I might reconsider".  If the second is how he interpreted it, then a simple question along the lines of I know you hadn't planned on going and had made other plans, are you still sure you're not going would have been much more reasonable. 

His mother sounds crazy.  I'm not sure why we all assigned her decision to call to him.  I can't imagine any teenage boy asking his more to call the parents of a girl who declined his invitation to prom since very few things would be more embarrassing than that. 

The expectation that a guy will ask her father whether he can ask her on a date is highly unusual.  Particularly in college, it is impractical at best to figure out how to contact a girl's parents before asking her out. I have never heard of it happening that way.  My parents, who were going on HS dates in the 1950's said it wouldn't have happened that way then either.


I think your dd's expectations for dating aren't in line with what the majority of people expect from dating and she needs to be more upfront about that with prospective dates. For me if someone asked my dad for permission to date me that would make it an automatic no because I want to be the gatekeeper for my dating life - not defer that to my parents. It would make me feel like I wasn't respected as a part of the relationship - that it was between my dad and my dad and my opinion does not matter as much. Is that something she expects going forward? Or only because she is still a minor? Because I am thinking that most of my male friends wouldn't want to ask a father's permission just to start dating. It feels very intrusive. Also what would she do if her dad said no?

In any event if that is what she wants then that is what she wants but she should be aware that she is the outlier there and needs to explicitly state those expectations or she will be very disappointed in the future.

I agree with both these.

Jay seems more chilled out about this than his mother, especially once you add in her 'off' history.
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom? update 102
Post by: LifeOnPluto on April 21, 2014, 10:35:39 PM
I also thought your DD's answer was pretty clear. To me, the "okay" meant "Ok, I will let you know if I change my mind". But I can kinda see how a clueless, excitable teenage boy might get the impression that "She'll change her mind, now she knows I've got the tickets!"

When Jay hadn't heard from DD by the weekend, he might have mentioned something to his mum, who got the wrong end of the stick, etc.

Anyway, sounds like your DD handled the situation really well!
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom? update 102
Post by: m2kbug on April 22, 2014, 09:14:55 AM
I haven't even read all the posts yet.  I was wondering, when I read how mom called you (really?  At his age) and was saying son was crushed about this whole thing if she wasn't being over-protective because her son has a behavior type issue (one track mind/doesn't listen/gets a thought in his head and won't deviate from it), whether it's a disability or not.  She certainly isn't doing him any favors coddling him. 

I think both the kids messed up, the boy more than DD.  First, no means no.  Second, I can see a confused "okay?" to mean, "yes."  Third, I can't imagine how they (he) got from the "okay" to a "just in case you change your mind" question to renting a limo, restaurant reservations, corsage, without so much as a conversation to verify that she would in fact be going with him.

DD will need to be more assertive in her "no's" in the future.  This is a learning process.  She should also pay attention to the personality types.  She knows this kid gets onto a subject and stays there, and knowing that, she will have to be bluntly clear that the answer is no, especially with people like the boy.  She will have to hurt feelings and step on toes once in awhile.  This is life.  This is a skill she will learn.  Rather than "okay?" she should have said, "I have plans already.  I can't go." 

This boy needs to learn how to stop and pay attention and recognize social cues and also not take everything so literally.  "Let's get together for coffee" or "maybe we could ride together" is not necessarily a commitment.  Touch base and solidify plans instead of sitting at the coffee shop or showing up at the house.  "You said we'd get together for coffee."  "Er, yeah, but not this weekend, dude."  His mother will need to work on that (with him, not with other friends/parents), and he'll learn it himself after he gets let down a couple times.  You need to follow through. 

This whole thing is a little nutters and this mom sounds like a piece of work.  I wonder of the boy was mortified his mom called the other mom.  Ack!  Your daughter would be wise to stay away from this mess.

Also, I don't understand this thing around the boy having to ask the parents before they ask the daughter on a date.  Is this how you raised her, that's fine, but a lot of boys won't know this, so it will be up to your daughter to explain it to these boys when they ask her out that they need to call her father first.  I know as a teen, I had to ask permission from my parents and my parents had to meet him.  None of this "honk at the curb" shenanigans or "meet you there."  I wouldn't get to go if they didn't get to meet him, but there was no requirement that the boy had to call my parents before asking me out, that part was my responsibility. 
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom? update 102
Post by: TurtleDove on April 22, 2014, 09:42:48 AM
m2kbug had some good points.  I think all people (not just women) would benefit from learning how to politely say "no" to someone.  I describe this skill as "Smiling Rejection," and it has served me very well in social and professional interactions.  Especially in romantic overtures, it can take a lot of energy and guts to ask someone out.  Fear of rejection, and pain of rejection, are common to all people (or at least all people I have ever met).  I can see that Jay handled this poorly, but he is a teenage boy, and from the updates it appears he and the DD remain friendly.

"Smiling Rejection" can be as simple as something like this:

A: "Would you go to prom with me?"
B: "How sweet of you to ask, but I'm sorry I have other plans!  I am sure whoever you end up taking will be a lucky girl - have a great time!"

Person A is "rejected" but the sting is lessened.  Compare that with "Demeaning Rejection":

A: "Would you go to prom with me?"
B: "Um....no. (Rolls eyes, gossips with friends about how a loser asked her to prom)"

Not that DD did Demeaning Rejection - she absolutely didn't.  But I think some people don't think through that sometimes it is more the delivery of a "no" than the actual "no" that stings.
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom? update 102
Post by: Lynn2000 on April 22, 2014, 09:49:58 AM
I think TurtleDove has a good point. I find that "Smiling Rejection" has worked well for me in the past, in many different scenarios (family, work, etc.). I think of it as being enthusiastic about the activity on behalf of the other person, while also declining to participate myself. "Oh, you're going to a festival dedicated to something that is the complete opposite of anything I would ever in my life be interested in? How cool for you, I'm sure you'll have a good time. No, thanks, I won't be going, but I look forward to hearing about it when you get back!"

Just another strategy to keep in one's pocket. It sounds like the situation ended well, except for Jay's mom being nutty.
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom? update 102
Post by: Julsie on April 22, 2014, 07:07:50 PM
Quote
The expectation that a guy will ask her father whether he can ask her on a date is highly unusual.  Particularly in college, it is impractical at best to figure out how to contact a girl's parents before asking her out.

It's not unusual in my social circle.  It's absolutely the norm, even into college.  I suspect that RegionMom and I have similar backgrounds.

My high school daughter recently was asked to the prom.  She and the boy are clearly "sweet" on each other but are not dating for now.  The young man called my husband to ask if he could ask our daughter to the dance.  It's just the way it's done in our group.

Best wishes to your daughter, RegionMom, and to her clueless young friend.  Here's hoping that he wisens up with age.
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom? update 102
Post by: johelenc1 on April 22, 2014, 10:55:39 PM
I've read the update and glad the potential drama was minimized.  But, I want to give my opinion anyway.

My first thought was, "the reason the boy may not have the courage to ever ask another girl out to prom is because is mom just called the girl he did ask and whine about how she rejected her poor little baby boy."

My next thoughts were, "the only people that need to apologize is crazy mom who called in the first place and the OP who let the conversation go on past "Hmmm. If your son has an issue with my daughter, I would suggest you suggest to him that he bring that up with her.  Thanks."

These kids are 16.  They need to work it out themselves - or at least try from the beginning.  If they can't, then maybe parents could get involved.  If they must.

I also think the daughter was perfectly clear.  She said no.  She even told him where she was going to be instead.  I picture her "okay" as a "ooookay" with a raised eyebrow and eye roll to his desperate attempt to guilt her into going to prom with him.  The kid heard what he wanted to hear.  If he really thought they were going to prom, he should have been communicating with her.  You don't ask a girl to prom and then don't speak to her until the night of prom.
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: Wintergreen on April 23, 2014, 05:50:07 AM
"Okay" to me means yes, so I'm a bit confused as to why you and your daughter thought she said no.  I can't think of any way that "okay" could be interpreted as no.  Her original mention of other plans was a bit wishy-washy, and his buying the tickets did seem like a way to try to coerce her into a yes, but this whole situation seems like a miscommunication.  I'd suggest that you, as parent, stay out of it, and tell his mom that it was up to the kids to figure out.  It's a good idea for her to learn to say no in a clear manner as a teenager.  You can definitely coach her on that, of course.

The statement for which the "okay" was given was "I bought two tickets", not to the question "will you come with me to prom". If I reply "Okay" to the first one, it does not in anyway imply "okay, I will be using other of the tickets with you". It's "okay, I hear what you are saying." Furthermore, there is nothing wishy-washy about stating "I have other plans, I'm not going". That is perfectly clear in any and every situation. I can see of course that hopeful boy (or anyone really) will hear what he want's to hear, but that really is not daughter's problem.
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: MariaE on April 23, 2014, 06:21:10 AM
"Okay" to me means yes, so I'm a bit confused as to why you and your daughter thought she said no.  I can't think of any way that "okay" could be interpreted as no.  Her original mention of other plans was a bit wishy-washy, and his buying the tickets did seem like a way to try to coerce her into a yes, but this whole situation seems like a miscommunication.  I'd suggest that you, as parent, stay out of it, and tell his mom that it was up to the kids to figure out.  It's a good idea for her to learn to say no in a clear manner as a teenager.  You can definitely coach her on that, of course.

The statement for which the "okay" was given was "I bought two tickets", not to the question "will you come with me to prom". If I reply "Okay" to the first one, it does not in anyway imply "okay, I will be using other of the tickets with you". It's "okay, I hear what you are saying." Furthermore, there is nothing wishy-washy about stating "I have other plans, I'm not going". That is perfectly clear in any and every situation. I can see of course that hopeful boy (or anyone really) will hear what he want's to hear, but that really is not daughter's problem.

Not to mention that even if "okay" did mean yes, the question at hand was "(will you) Let me know if you change your plans"... which is a completely different question from "Will you go to the prom with me".
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: Spring Water on Sundays on April 23, 2014, 09:58:49 AM
"Okay" to me means yes, so I'm a bit confused as to why you and your daughter thought she said no.  I can't think of any way that "okay" could be interpreted as no.  Her original mention of other plans was a bit wishy-washy, and his buying the tickets did seem like a way to try to coerce her into a yes, but this whole situation seems like a miscommunication.  I'd suggest that you, as parent, stay out of it, and tell his mom that it was up to the kids to figure out.  It's a good idea for her to learn to say no in a clear manner as a teenager.  You can definitely coach her on that, of course.

The statement for which the "okay" was given was "I bought two tickets", not to the question "will you come with me to prom". If I reply "Okay" to the first one, it does not in anyway imply "okay, I will be using other of the tickets with you". It's "okay, I hear what you are saying." Furthermore, there is nothing wishy-washy about stating "I have other plans, I'm not going". That is perfectly clear in any and every situation. I can see of course that hopeful boy (or anyone really) will hear what he want's to hear, but that really is not daughter's problem.

Not to mention that even if "okay" did mean yes, the question at hand was "(will you) Let me know if you change your plans"... which is a completely different question from "Will you go to the prom with me".

^^^^^ THIS. Exactly this. He asked her to go to prom. She said no, she would not go to prom. He asked her to let him know if her plans changed. She said ok, she would let him know if her plans changed. It's unfortunate if he was confused or misinterpreted.
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom? update 102
Post by: gen xer on April 23, 2014, 10:44:31 AM
 I agree with the posters like Gellchom and m2k that it is likely just an issue of maturing communication skills and that we don't have to start thinking in terms of "creeper" behaviour.

OP's daughter was not in the wrong.  She explained she had a prior commitment and would not be going and had no reason to think this guy wouldn't clue in...except that he didn't.  That's where she could have been a little firmer / clearer.  In a kind way.  The "Okay???" wasn't really a yes but ther are some types that will just run with whatever glimmer of hope they can get.  They need firmer answers.  It's not even a question of "should" they keep asking - the fact is some people just do.  Those types of people will take a mile if given an inch and they will deliberately misunderstand.

Now she knows.

The guy...well now he's learned that pushy / manipulative / deliberate obtuseness isn't going to work.  He bought tickets and he should have to wear the cost.  He doesn't have the date he wants.  Hopefully - lesson learned - that is if mom backs off and lets him learn it.

These aren't necessarily bad things for kids to experience.  Both girls and boys can learn how to say no firmly and politely and they can learn how to accept no as an answer.
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom?
Post by: Surianne on April 23, 2014, 10:58:10 AM
"Okay" to me means yes, so I'm a bit confused as to why you and your daughter thought she said no.  I can't think of any way that "okay" could be interpreted as no.  Her original mention of other plans was a bit wishy-washy, and his buying the tickets did seem like a way to try to coerce her into a yes, but this whole situation seems like a miscommunication.  I'd suggest that you, as parent, stay out of it, and tell his mom that it was up to the kids to figure out.  It's a good idea for her to learn to say no in a clear manner as a teenager.  You can definitely coach her on that, of course.

The statement for which the "okay" was given was "I bought two tickets", not to the question "will you come with me to prom". If I reply "Okay" to the first one, it does not in anyway imply "okay, I will be using other of the tickets with you". It's "okay, I hear what you are saying." Furthermore, there is nothing wishy-washy about stating "I have other plans, I'm not going". That is perfectly clear in any and every situation. I can see of course that hopeful boy (or anyone really) will hear what he want's to hear, but that really is not daughter's problem.

Not to mention that even if "okay" did mean yes, the question at hand was "(will you) Let me know if you change your plans"... which is a completely different question from "Will you go to the prom with me".

^^^^^ THIS. Exactly this. He asked her to go to prom. She said no, she would not go to prom. He asked her to let him know if her plans changed. She said ok, she would let him know if her plans changed. It's unfortunate if he was confused or misinterpreted.

My post was actually on page 2, so I'm not sure why it's suddenly being picked apart now on page 8.  Let's just agree to disagree on my post, since I don't think debating it will be of any use to the OP. 

I'm happy to see  the OP's update, where it sounds like both her daughter and the boy behaved very reasonably and politely toward each other, and the issue is resolved. 
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom? update 102
Post by: Julsie on April 23, 2014, 01:23:00 PM
RegionMom, thank you for sharing this situation with us.  I used it as a springboard for a great conversation with my 16 year old daughter today.  We talked about red flags, manipulative tricks, guilt trips, saying no clearly, etc...

I want her to know that not every attentive young man is going to have her best interests at heart and that if her hinky meter goes off, it's important to heed it and not just try to "be nice".

I'll also be using this story with my teenage son about the importance of respectful communication and good listening skills.
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom? update 102
Post by: amylouky on April 23, 2014, 01:40:31 PM
RegionMom, thank you for sharing this situation with us.  I used it as a springboard for a great conversation with my 16 year old daughter today.  We talked about red flags, manipulative tricks, guilt trips, saying no clearly, etc...

I want her to know that not every attentive young man is going to have her best interests at heart and that if her hinky meter goes off, it's important to heed it and not just try to "be nice".

I'll also be using this story with my teenage son about the importance of respectful communication and good listening skills.

I hope you'll be teaching both lessons to both your daughter and your son. Girls can be just as manipulative and guilt trippy as boys can. I've known plenty of men who get absolutely trampled by their SOs because they were raised to be gentlemen.
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom? update 102
Post by: Steve on April 23, 2014, 02:01:54 PM
I have to say your DD sounds like a class act. Her behavior in this (from your posts of course) seems decent, polite, kind and to the point. Please tell her I am proud  8). I hope my DD's ( 10 and 8 ) will be able to handle this stuff as classy as she does.

I hope she can keep from sharing this debacle with others at school and spare Jay any further embarrassment.

Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom? update 102
Post by: gellchom on April 23, 2014, 02:32:25 PM
RegionMom, thank you for sharing this situation with us.  I used it as a springboard for a great conversation with my 16 year old daughter today.  We talked about red flags, manipulative tricks, guilt trips, saying no clearly, etc...

I want her to know that not every attentive young man is going to have her best interests at heart and that if her hinky meter goes off, it's important to heed it and not just try to "be nice".

I'll also be using this story with my teenage son about the importance of respectful communication and good listening skills.

I hope you'll be teaching both lessons to both your daughter and your son. Girls can be just as manipulative and guilt trippy as boys can. I've known plenty of men who get absolutely trampled by their SOs because they were raised to be gentlemen.

POD
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom? update 102
Post by: TeamBhakta on April 24, 2014, 10:40:52 PM
I have to say your DD sounds like a class act. Her behavior in this (from your posts of course) seems decent, polite, kind and to the point. Please tell her I am proud  8). I hope my DD's ( 10 and 8 ) will be able to handle this stuff as classy as she does.

I hope she can keep from sharing this debacle with others at school and spare Jay any further embarrassment.

Jay brought any embarrassment on himself.
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom? update 102
Post by: Steve on April 25, 2014, 09:23:33 AM
Ha can hardly be blamed for his mother.
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom? update 102
Post by: Garden Goblin on April 25, 2014, 09:30:22 AM
Ha can hardly be blamed for his mother.

No, but he can and should be blamed for not accepting her original no.

I'm not suggesting that she go out of her way to embarrass him, but she really is under no obligation to spare him from the consequences of his own actions.  Hopefully, he will learn a lesson from this.

There are places this same tale could have been related, and the majority of the advice would have been that it was her fault and she is obligated to go to the prom with him to spare his feelings.  There was similar advice given in regards to a young lady who turned a guy down because she wasn't interested in him and the advice columnist among others stated that meant she wasn't allowed to go to the prom at all.  I'm glad to see the majority of e-hell isn't blaming the girl for what happened.
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom? update 102
Post by: TootsNYC on April 25, 2014, 10:21:04 AM
Ha can hardly be blamed for his mother.

No, but he can and should be blamed for not accepting her original no.


And he can be blamed for not communicating clearly enough with his mother. He had to have said *something* that left his mother believing that the girl was stringing him along.
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom? update 102
Post by: Yvaine on April 25, 2014, 10:23:22 AM
There are places this same tale could have been related, and the majority of the advice would have been that it was her fault and she is obligated to go to the prom with him to spare his feelings.  There was similar advice given in regards to a young lady who turned a guy down because she wasn't interested in him and the advice columnist among others stated that meant she wasn't allowed to go to the prom at all.  I'm glad to see the majority of e-hell isn't blaming the girl for what happened.

I remember that column. Miss Manners, was it? Sometimes she randomly gets timewarped back into the fifties for a day.
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom? update 102
Post by: MariaE on April 25, 2014, 03:48:33 PM
Ha can hardly be blamed for his mother.

No, but he can and should be blamed for not accepting her original no.


And he can be blamed for not communicating clearly enough with his mother. He had to have said *something* that left his mother believing that the girl was stringing him along.

Not necessarily. It could just be a matter of the mother heaing what she wanted to hear.
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom? update 102
Post by: Katana_Geldar on April 25, 2014, 04:56:15 PM
I have some strong suspicions about Jay that I won't go into in detail, but they seem to add up in my mind with the obsessions and the inability to recognise social cues. His mother coddling him like that isn't helping him at all.

Is it really the end of the world if you get told "No" for the prom? I read a story this morning where a girl was stabbed when she said "No". She later died in hospital.
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom? update 102
Post by: Dr. F. on April 25, 2014, 06:09:28 PM
Ha can hardly be blamed for his mother.

No, but he can and should be blamed for not accepting her original no.


And he can be blamed for not communicating clearly enough with his mother. He had to have said *something* that left his mother believing that the girl was stringing him along.

Not necessarily. It could just be a matter of the mother heaing what she wanted to hear.

Some strange little corner of my mind wonders if Mom didn't tell sonny-boy something like, "OH, she's just being coy. Go ahead and get everything set up, but the tickets, etc., and she'll dump that babysitting job ASAP! You just need to pursue her!" I have no evidence to support that, except that Mom seems to have some odd opinions, and that she seems more upset than her son. If so, when this ploy failed, it's no wonder son was embarrassed and had no problem accepting the further "no."
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom? update 102
Post by: Yvaine on April 25, 2014, 06:12:55 PM
Ha can hardly be blamed for his mother.

No, but he can and should be blamed for not accepting her original no.


And he can be blamed for not communicating clearly enough with his mother. He had to have said *something* that left his mother believing that the girl was stringing him along.

Not necessarily. It could just be a matter of the mother heaing what she wanted to hear.

Some strange little corner of my mind wonders if Mom didn't tell sonny-boy something like, "OH, she's just being coy. Go ahead and get everything set up, but the tickets, etc., and she'll dump that babysitting job ASAP! You just need to pursue her!" I have no evidence to support that, except that Mom seems to have some odd opinions, and that she seems more upset than her son. If so, when this ploy failed, it's no wonder son was embarrassed and had no problem accepting the further "no."

And when the time comes for him to search for a job, she'll probably hound him to call to "follow up" three times a day, and then he'll be desperately writing in to Ask a Manager in a few years. :D
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom? update 102
Post by: RegionMom on April 25, 2014, 06:52:52 PM
OP here-

I heard that story of the girl that was stabbed to death and felt my heart stop a beat.  I am SO thankful that my DD is safe, and SO heartbroken for that girl's family and friends that are reeling from the news that she is gone. 

Even though the prom is a Big Night, going or not, with the right or wrong person should not be a life or death moment.  It looks like this girl was planning on going out with friends to the prom, had had her dress since early March (pic posted online) and somewhere along the way, told this boy NO. 

And he could not handle it. 

So terribly sad.




Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom? update 102
Post by: m2kbug on April 25, 2014, 07:34:24 PM
<snip>

There are places this same tale could have been related, and the majority of the advice would have been that it was her fault and she is obligated to go to the prom with him to spare his feelings.  There was similar advice given in regards to a young lady who turned a guy down because she wasn't interested in him and the advice columnist among others stated that meant she wasn't allowed to go to the prom at all.  I'm glad to see the majority of e-hell isn't blaming the girl for what happened.

I'm really curious about this one.  While I believe the "okay?" might have been a little bit confusing to Jay, that seems more a Jay problem.  Clumsy communication aside, I think the fact that DD had a prior commitment was pretty clear from the start.  What do you (personal and general) think the justification would be that the girl is now obligated to cancel on her job because the boy misunderstood?  Or pay for half??  And where and who? 
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom? update 102
Post by: RegionMom on April 25, 2014, 07:45:37 PM
Monday-
"wanna go to prom?"
"Nope, babysitting."

Wednesday-
"Hey, I bought tickets just in case."
"O kay??"

Friday-
Mom calls to fuss that Jay made all sorts of plans. 

Why should DD be obligated to go with him? 

Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom? update 102
Post by: Garden Goblin on April 26, 2014, 01:00:50 PM
Not necessarily. It could just be a matter of the mother heaing what she wanted to hear.

Like mother like son?

I'm really curious about this one.  While I believe the "okay?" might have been a little bit confusing to Jay, that seems more a Jay problem.  Clumsy communication aside, I think the fact that DD had a prior commitment was pretty clear from the start.  What do you (personal and general) think the justification would be that the girl is now obligated to cancel on her job because the boy misunderstood?  Or pay for half??  And where and who? 

'Oh, he got up the nerve to ask you out?  You need to go on at least one date with him so you don't hurt his feelings!  You should be flattered that of all the girls, he wanted to go out with you!  Take it as a compliment, and accept the compliment.  I mean, if you didn't want to go out with him, why were you sending him signals in the first place?  He wouldn't have asked you out if he wasn't getting some kind of signal from you.  Besides, he could end up rich and famous some day and then you'll be cursing yourself that you snubbed him like that.  You don't need pocket money, he'll pay for everything anyway, I'm sure.  You don't want to end up a spinster, do you, like all those women who put career ahead of finding a good husband and are now dried up lonely prunes with fifty cats?  You don't want to embarrass him and make him angry and then have him tell all his friends how you treated him, no boy will ask you out again.  And his mother seems like such a nice, caring person and I don't want another phone call from her so make my life easier and just go out with the kid'

Sorry... channeling some of my family members there for a moment
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom? update 102
Post by: gollymolly2 on April 26, 2014, 01:36:44 PM
I have some strong suspicions about Jay that I won't go into in detail, but they seem to add up in my mind with the obsessions and the inability to recognise social cues. His mother coddling him like that isn't helping him at all.

Let's not diagnose someone based on a single interaction we heard about fourth-hand.
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom? update 102
Post by: m2kbug on April 26, 2014, 06:17:24 PM
I have some strong suspicions about Jay that I won't go into in detail, but they seem to add up in my mind with the obsessions and the inability to recognise social cues. His mother coddling him like that isn't helping him at all.

Let's not diagnose someone based on a single interaction we heard about fourth-hand.

I think it's a valid point (which was also my impression), which is why I think it was important for the DD to be more clear in her response to him, that she was committed to a job and would not be changing her mind about going to prom.  This comes back to life skills and communication skills that she will learn as she grows, but especially when dealing with individuals like this, you need to be more direct.  The mother isn't doing him any favors if she's coddling his whims and not teaching him how to function in regular society.  I think most of us who read this post, really didn't see where there was a question at all that DD would not be going to prom, but this boy was clearly mistaken because his brain doesn't necessarily comprehend nuances like this.  Of course I don't know for a fact that this is the case with Jay.  He may not necessarily have a disorder, but his thinking style and expectations seem very immature.
Title: Re: How strong was DD's "no" for prom? update 102
Post by: cass2591 on April 26, 2014, 07:47:35 PM
That's right, you don't know him therefore you have no knowledge of his neurological status.