Etiquette Hell

General Etiquette => Life...in general => Topic started by: TheaterDiva1 on June 15, 2014, 10:26:28 PM

Title: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
Post by: TheaterDiva1 on June 15, 2014, 10:26:28 PM
Not sure if this belongs here or the work folder...

A restaurant in Kentucky does not allow customers to tip waitstaff. Details here: http://www.ijreview.com/2014/06/147751-restaurants-new-tipping-policy-actually-wildly-popular-among-serving-staff/

I just thought this would make for an interesting discussion here.
Title: Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
Post by: kareng57 on June 15, 2014, 10:53:51 PM
There's a new restaurant not too far from me that intends to do this, as well.

As much as I applaud the idea, I think that they could have trouble recruiting staff.  Here, wait-staff must be paid the provincial minimum wage.  And in high-end restaurants, especially those in tourist areas (such as the one I'm referring to), the waiters can make a very nice living even after portioning tips out to support staff.
Title: Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
Post by: JenJay on June 15, 2014, 11:08:50 PM
I love it!
Title: Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
Post by: MariaE on June 15, 2014, 11:37:29 PM
Awesome! I hope it spreads!
Title: Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
Post by: Sharnita on June 16, 2014, 12:38:31 AM
$10 or 20 percent of hourly food sales - makes me wonder if waitstaff might be tempted to hurry one table along in order to seat the next family and sell them more food.
Title: Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
Post by: marcel on June 16, 2014, 12:44:01 AM
i think this is a very good initiative. At the moment the US does not have a tipping culture, it has a variable pay culture. A lot of restaurants doing this for a few years, (enough to make it the standard method for restaurants) is probably the best way to get the US  back to a tipping culture.


$10 or 20 percent of hourly food sales - makes me wonder if waitstaff might be tempted to hurry one table along in order to seat the next family and sell them more food.
That is what waitstaff in a high tipping environment do anyway. It is actualy the reason I generaly prefer European restaurants over US ones
Title: Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
Post by: z_squared82 on June 16, 2014, 10:59:00 AM
Ah yes. Im for it. And Im hoping to go as I live just across the river.
Title: Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
Post by: lady_disdain on June 16, 2014, 11:04:32 AM
There's a new restaurant not too far from me that intends to do this, as well.

As much as I applaud the idea, I think that they could have trouble recruiting staff.  Here, wait-staff must be paid the provincial minimum wage.  And in high-end restaurants, especially those in tourist areas (such as the one I'm referring to), the waiters can make a very nice living even after portioning tips out to support staff.

They will have trouble recruiting if they are offering significantly less than minimum wages plus tips. If they are offering close to that, they won't.

I think they may have more problems with patrons, since their menu prices will have to be higher than other restaurants, to pay that salary. Some people will have no problem seeing that they won't have to add 15% or 20% on top of the price, others will feel it is too expensive, since they will still be mentally add a tip, from habit.
Title: Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
Post by: Luci on June 16, 2014, 11:34:18 AM
i think this is a very good initiative. At the moment the US does not have a tipping culture, it has a variable pay culture. A lot of restaurants doing this for a few years, (enough to make it the standard method for restaurants) is probably the best way to get the US  back to a tipping culture.


$10 or 20 percent of hourly food sales - makes me wonder if waitstaff might be tempted to hurry one table along in order to seat the next family and sell them more food.
That is what waitstaff in a high tipping environment do anyway. It is actualy the reason I generaly prefer European restaurants over US ones

Confused, here. I've not seen no tipping in the US and we have been to large cities in the past few years and not run into a that situation.

I would abide by it and see what happens culturally if it catches on.
Title: Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
Post by: rose red on June 16, 2014, 11:51:13 AM
i think this is a very good initiative. At the moment the US does not have a tipping culture, it has a variable pay culture. A lot of restaurants doing this for a few years, (enough to make it the standard method for restaurants) is probably the best way to get the US  back to a tipping culture.


$10 or 20 percent of hourly food sales - makes me wonder if waitstaff might be tempted to hurry one table along in order to seat the next family and sell them more food.
That is what waitstaff in a high tipping environment do anyway. It is actualy the reason I generaly prefer European restaurants over US ones

Confused, here. I've not seen no tipping in the US and we have been to large cities in the past few years and not run into a that situation.

She means the money we leave on the table is not actually a tip even though we call it that, but a payment of services since it's pretty much required. Sure it's not against the law not to tip, but that's not kindly looked upon.
Title: Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
Post by: TootsNYC on June 16, 2014, 05:15:07 PM
$10 or 20 percent of hourly food sales - makes me wonder if waitstaff might be tempted to hurry one table along in order to seat the next family and sell them more food.

They already are, aren't they?
Title: Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
Post by: Texas Mom on June 16, 2014, 09:53:18 PM
It would be lovely to see servers paid a reasonable wage everywhere.

Where I live, servers are paid 2.13/hour + tips.
Title: Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
Post by: kareng57 on June 16, 2014, 10:02:32 PM
There's a new restaurant not too far from me that intends to do this, as well.

As much as I applaud the idea, I think that they could have trouble recruiting staff.  Here, wait-staff must be paid the provincial minimum wage.  And in high-end restaurants, especially those in tourist areas (such as the one I'm referring to), the waiters can make a very nice living even after portioning tips out to support staff.

They will have trouble recruiting if they are offering significantly less than minimum wages plus tips. If they are offering close to that, they won't.

I think they may have more problems with patrons, since their menu prices will have to be higher than other restaurants, to pay that salary. Some people will have no problem seeing that they won't have to add 15% or 20% on top of the price, others will feel it is too expensive, since they will still be mentally add a tip, from habit.


In many instances, they'd have to pay something like $ 25/hour to match what servers currently get at a restaurant like this, including tips.  That's more than twice minimum wage here.  Let me emphasise that I'm talking about a high-end restaurant here; I'm certainly not asserting that servers at a family-type chain make this much.

As a customer, I don't like tipping in general and would be happy to pay a bit more on the menu price.  But many wait staff, especially very good ones, quite possibly wouldn't get the wages they currently enjoy.
Title: Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
Post by: Peppergirl on June 16, 2014, 11:04:26 PM
This is my hometown. 

I've added the link to my Facebook feed and asked my friends if any of them have gone, or are planning to visit.  I no longer live there and am intrigued. 

I shall report back with my findings. :)
Title: Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
Post by: lowspark on June 17, 2014, 08:36:51 AM
I think it sounds like a good idea. Whether or not it will spread is a different story.

The $10 is the part that makes it sticky. Because how that will compare to the 20% of sales, will totally depend on the food prices in the restaurant. If it's a high end place where dishes fall in the $30-$45 range, the 20% is easily going to top the $10. And for a restaurant where $10 might be on par with the 20%, is the restaurant going to raise the $10 base wage whenever they raise menu prices?

Title: Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
Post by: lowspark on June 17, 2014, 08:40:47 AM
$10 or 20 percent of hourly food sales - makes me wonder if waitstaff might be tempted to hurry one table along in order to seat the next family and sell them more food.

If this were an issue, it would already be one as servers are already dependent on selling a lot of food to make their money. Whether that comes from tips based on amount sold or wages based on amount sold wouldn't make any difference. It's still based on amount sold.

Not to say that it isn't already an issue. It may very well be and probably is in certain establishments. But I don't think this change would exacerbate the situation.
Title: Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
Post by: Onyx_TKD on June 17, 2014, 10:58:39 AM
I think it sounds like a good idea. Whether or not it will spread is a different story.

The $10 is the part that makes it sticky. Because how that will compare to the 20% of sales, will totally depend on the food prices in the restaurant. If it's a high end place where dishes fall in the $30-$45 range, the 20% is easily going to top the $10. And for a restaurant where $10 might be on par with the 20%, is the restaurant going to raise the $10 base wage whenever they raise menu prices?

Why is it "sticky" and why would they need to adjust the base wage based on food prices? ??? From the article (bolding mine):
Quote
Heres how it works: servers are paid $10 an hour OR 20% of their individual food sales during their shiftswhichever amount is higher.
The servers get whichever pay system works out to more money for them. If food prices are high and business is good, they'll get paid 20% of their sales. If business is bad or food is really cheap, they'll get $10 an hour. Either way, their pay will be equal to or greater than a guaranteed 20% tip. The base wage only becomes relevant in situations where they wouldn't have been making more than $10 per hour in tips anyway (unless they're in an area where almost everyone consistently tips more than 20%, which I doubt), so raising it along with the menu prices seems like a minor issue--the higher the menu prices, the more likely that they'll be paid the 20% instead of the base wage.
Title: Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
Post by: lowspark on June 17, 2014, 11:25:10 AM
It's sticky because as time goes on, the $10 will approach, in worth, the $2.13 (or whatever base now is) of today.

So, either the base of $10 has meaning or it doesn't. It's meant to be a minimum, so the servers will be guaranteed at least $10 per hour, whether or not the restaurant is busy, whether or not a server gets some low-ordering tables, etc. But as the $10 becomes worth less over time, it will just become like today's minimum wage which was set so many years ago.

So if the 20% is always going to come into play, then why bother invoking any minimum? But if there is actually a need to invoke a minimum, then that minimum needs to keep up with inflation.

Title: Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
Post by: Goosey on June 17, 2014, 11:28:03 AM
So, wages shouldn't improve now because inflation will eventually catch up?
Title: Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
Post by: wolfie on June 17, 2014, 11:30:05 AM
It's sticky because as time goes on, the $10 will approach, in worth, the $2.13 (or whatever base now is) of today.

So, either the base of $10 has meaning or it doesn't. It's meant to be a minimum, so the servers will be guaranteed at least $10 per hour, whether or not the restaurant is busy, whether or not a server gets some low-ordering tables, etc. But as the $10 becomes worth less over time, it will just become like today's minimum wage which was set so many years ago.

So if the 20% is always going to come into play, then why bother invoking any minimum? But if there is actually a need to invoke a minimum, then that minimum needs to keep up with inflation.

Because you might have a day where most of your tables camp with just tomato soup and water and 20% of that is not going to be $10 and hour. But I see the "when prices are raised will their wages be raised" as the same as those of us who aren't waiters. Just because my company made a lot of money this year doesn't mean I will get a raise. Minimum wage hasn't changed for years. I would assume this restaurant will keep their fingers on the pulse of the business and raise that minimum if they need to.
Title: Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
Post by: lowspark on June 17, 2014, 11:34:35 AM
So, wages shouldn't improve now because inflation will eventually catch up?

No, the exact opposite. Wages should not stagnate because if they do, inflation will catch up.
The $10 needs to improve over time. That's all I'm saying.
And I've seen the opposite happen. $10 minimum sounds good now, but if it never changes, it's not very good at all.
Title: Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
Post by: Goosey on June 17, 2014, 11:36:40 AM
So, wages shouldn't improve now because inflation will eventually catch up?

No, the exact opposite. Wages should not stagnate because if they do, inflation will catch up.
The $10 needs to improve over time. That's all I'm saying.
And I've seen the opposite happen. $10 minimum sounds good now, but if it never changes, it's not very good at all.

Ah, okay I think I get what you're saying. I think I was reading that you were saying that it shouldn't be done because $10 will eventually be nothing. But, what you're saying is that $10 is good for now, but market wages should be met?
Title: Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
Post by: lowspark on June 17, 2014, 11:37:43 AM
It's sticky because as time goes on, the $10 will approach, in worth, the $2.13 (or whatever base now is) of today.

So, either the base of $10 has meaning or it doesn't. It's meant to be a minimum, so the servers will be guaranteed at least $10 per hour, whether or not the restaurant is busy, whether or not a server gets some low-ordering tables, etc. But as the $10 becomes worth less over time, it will just become like today's minimum wage which was set so many years ago.

So if the 20% is always going to come into play, then why bother invoking any minimum? But if there is actually a need to invoke a minimum, then that minimum needs to keep up with inflation.

Because you might have a day where most of your tables camp with just tomato soup and water and 20% of that is not going to be $10 and hour. But I see the "when prices are raised will their wages be raised" as the same as those of us who aren't waiters. Just because my company made a lot of money this year doesn't mean I will get a raise. Minimum wage hasn't changed for years. I would assume this restaurant will keep their fingers on the pulse of the business and raise that minimum if they need to.

An assumption, yes. If they do, great! If they don't, well, all I'm saying is that they need to. I won't assume they will, though, based on experience. And you've voiced one of the main reasons why I won't assume they will: "Minimum wage hasn't changed for years."
Title: Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
Post by: lowspark on June 17, 2014, 11:39:36 AM
So, wages shouldn't improve now because inflation will eventually catch up?

No, the exact opposite. Wages should not stagnate because if they do, inflation will catch up.
The $10 needs to improve over time. That's all I'm saying.
And I've seen the opposite happen. $10 minimum sounds good now, but if it never changes, it's not very good at all.

Ah, okay I think I get what you're saying. I think I was reading that you were saying that it shouldn't be done because $10 will eventually be nothing. But, what you're saying is that $10 is good for now, but market wages should be met?

Right.
And in addition, I'm saying, I would be surprised if they do actually continually improve the $10 to meet market wages. Not saying it won't happen. Just saying it doesn't usually happen unless it somehow gets legislated.
Title: Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
Post by: Goosey on June 17, 2014, 11:42:11 AM
So, wages shouldn't improve now because inflation will eventually catch up?

No, the exact opposite. Wages should not stagnate because if they do, inflation will catch up.
The $10 needs to improve over time. That's all I'm saying.
And I've seen the opposite happen. $10 minimum sounds good now, but if it never changes, it's not very good at all.

Ah, okay I think I get what you're saying. I think I was reading that you were saying that it shouldn't be done because $10 will eventually be nothing. But, what you're saying is that $10 is good for now, but market wages should be met?

Right.
And in addition, I'm saying, I would be surprised if they do actually continually improve the $10 to meet market wages. Not saying it won't happen. Just saying it doesn't usually happen unless it somehow gets legislated.

Well, simply by offering this $10 or 20% wage standard, this restaurant is showing that they are willing to move beyond the status quo to the benefit of their employees.
Title: Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
Post by: lowspark on June 17, 2014, 11:49:59 AM
Oh, I agree!

My original post was meant to point out that while $10 might be the right minimum for that restaurant for today, it won't be tomorrow.

But in addition to that, it wouldn't be the right minimum, even today, for every restaurant. Some restaurants, it might be too high and they'll just hit that $10 every time, which would be great for the servers but might break the budget for the restaurant. In some places, it's going to be too low and they'll never hit that $10, even on a bad day. And maybe in some places 20% might be too low if their regular clientele normally tips higher than that.

My point is that it sounds like a great idea and those particular numbers might work for that particular eatery.
But if it were going to be something implemented across the board for a lot of restaurants, those two numbers might need to be tailored for each place and adjusted periodically.
Title: Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
Post by: lady_disdain on June 17, 2014, 11:50:25 AM
So, wages shouldn't improve now because inflation will eventually catch up?

No, the exact opposite. Wages should not stagnate because if they do, inflation will catch up.
The $10 needs to improve over time. That's all I'm saying.
And I've seen the opposite happen. $10 minimum sounds good now, but if it never changes, it's not very good at all.

But that is true of anyone who receives a salary - the waiter, the bank teller, the secretary, etc.
Title: Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
Post by: wolfie on June 17, 2014, 11:53:02 AM
Oh, I agree!

My original post was meant to point out that while $10 might be the right minimum for that restaurant for today, it won't be tomorrow.

But in addition to that, it wouldn't be the right minimum, even today, for every restaurant. Some restaurants, it might be too high and they'll just hit that $10 every time, which would be great for the servers but might break the budget for the restaurant. In some places, it's going to be too low and they'll never hit that $10, even on a bad day. And maybe in some places 20% might be too low if their regular clientele normally tips higher than that.

My point is that it sounds like a great idea and those particular numbers might work for that particular eatery.
But if it were going to be something implemented across the board for a lot of restaurants, those two numbers might need to be tailored for each place and adjusted periodically.

How is that different from any other industry?
Title: Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
Post by: lowspark on June 17, 2014, 12:05:07 PM
Oh, I agree!

My original post was meant to point out that while $10 might be the right minimum for that restaurant for today, it won't be tomorrow.

But in addition to that, it wouldn't be the right minimum, even today, for every restaurant. Some restaurants, it might be too high and they'll just hit that $10 every time, which would be great for the servers but might break the budget for the restaurant. In some places, it's going to be too low and they'll never hit that $10, even on a bad day. And maybe in some places 20% might be too low if their regular clientele normally tips higher than that.

My point is that it sounds like a great idea and those particular numbers might work for that particular eatery.
But if it were going to be something implemented across the board for a lot of restaurants, those two numbers might need to be tailored for each place and adjusted periodically.

How is that different from any other industry?

Exactly. It's not.
But you know, it actually is. Because the restaurant is already different from other industries by the whole tipping culture. I get paid a salary. I know how much I'm going to make every month. I don't get more or less based on how much business my company does and how much my company's customers want to add to my salary by tipping me.

My company doesn't set a minimum for me that I will make if and only if the company's customers don't already meet and beat that minimum by giving me extra out of their own pockets.

Restaurants (and other businesses whose employees depend on tips) are inherently different from other industries for that reason. Should they be? Should we eliminate the tipping and go to a straight salary or some percentage of sales? Well, that's something we've been debating here for years and, I imagine, will continue to do so. I'd prefer to eliminate the tipping but I don't see it happening.

And I'll qualify all of this by saying, I'm a generous tipper and normally tip more than 20%.
Title: Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
Post by: lady_disdain on June 17, 2014, 12:08:34 PM
Many commissioned workers, like salespeople, do have a fixed minimum and a % of sales. Even many salaried people get bonuses based on % of revenue if goals are met.
Title: Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
Post by: Goosey on June 17, 2014, 12:12:51 PM
I think you keep switching back and forth from tipping culture vs. wage culture.

You said that the problem with the  $10/20% wages is that it would need to change as determined by market demands, etc.
Posters said, "Yes, this is true in general for every other position. Would it be any different for waiters if they are wage?"
You say, "Tipping culture means it is different than any other position!"

Well, we weren't discussing typing culture, we were discussion moving away from tipping culture into wage culture, right?

And just remember that just because you tip over 20% doesn't mean that if a waiter was working under the $10/20% wage, they'd be making less money. For the extra percentages you provide, a waiter can lose much more if they are stiffed or have a slow night.
Title: Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
Post by: lowspark on June 17, 2014, 01:46:14 PM
Yes, we're discussing moving away from a tipping culture. But I don't think you can just ignore the way things are now. I may be wrong, but I think that when you have the status quo so deeply ingrained in our way of life and in our way of thinking, it's not just a matter of saying, Ok, today, we switch from doing it this way to doing it that way, and everyone will accept this and everything will fall into place and be just as it should be.

Ideally, of course, that's what happens. But in reality, I question if it would. Restaurant workers have been paid low wages and depended on tips for so long, and, more importantly, restaurant owners have operated this way for so long, that I believe it will be hard to just make the transition overnight. There's likely to be some back slipping.

So yes, we are looking at moving away from the tipping culture. But I think we have to be mindful of where we are coming from, not just where we are going. So it is different, simply because of the existing system which has been in place for so long and will, in my opinion, be difficult to obliterate with a wave of the wand.

It won't just be a matter of saying we're going to do things differently. It's going to be a matter of learning to think of things in a new way. And I don't mean for the customer, I mean for the servers and their employers.

And yes, I'm aware that there are other industries that are commission based. To my knowledge, (and again, I might be wrong about this) their base pay is traditionally pretty low. If I understand it correctly, the base pay for commission salespeople isn't meant to be much, thus incentivizing the workers to perform.
Title: Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
Post by: Goosey on June 17, 2014, 01:58:36 PM
I know, but no one was contesting that. They were discussion your initial remarks in regards to how the wages would have to change with the market. That's what I'm saying. It just seemed we were talking through each other.
Title: Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
Post by: TootsNYC on June 17, 2014, 02:13:43 PM
Oh, I agree!

My original post was meant to point out that while $10 might be the right minimum for that restaurant for today, it won't be tomorrow.

But in addition to that, it wouldn't be the right minimum, even today, for every restaurant. Some restaurants, it might be too high and they'll just hit that $10 every time, which would be great for the servers but might break the budget for the restaurant. In some places, it's going to be too low and they'll never hit that $10, even on a bad day. And maybe in some places 20% might be too low if their regular clientele normally tips higher than that.

My point is that it sounds like a great idea and those particular numbers might work for that particular eatery.
But if it were going to be something implemented across the board for a lot of restaurants, those two numbers might need to be tailored for each place and adjusted periodically.

How is that different from any other industry?

Exactly. It's not.
But you know, it actually is. Because the restaurant is already different from other industries by the whole tipping culture. I get paid a salary. I know how much I'm going to make every month. I don't get more or less based on how much business my company does and how much my company's customers want to add to my salary by tipping me.

My company doesn't set a minimum for me that I will make if and only if the company's customers don't already meet and beat that minimum by giving me extra out of their own pockets.

Restaurants (and other businesses whose employees depend on tips) are inherently different from other industries for that reason. Should they be? Should we eliminate the tipping and go to a straight salary or some percentage of sales? Well, that's something we've been debating here for years and, I imagine, will continue to do so. I'd prefer to eliminate the tipping but I don't see it happening.



People who sell on commission do.
Title: Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
Post by: kategillian on June 17, 2014, 02:16:59 PM
The issue with that no one seems to talk about in a non tipping culture is that the FOOD will cost more. That $10 burger that you had yesterday is now going to cost $13.  $2 for the server and $1 for the busser. Maybe throw in another one for the bartender. It's not that tips will no longer be expected, you just won't see them. You won't have any choice in the matter!  Good service, or bad service. Attentive server or someone who ignores you the entire time and rolls their eyes when you ask for sauce on the side. They'll all get 20%. I admit that I have been a server and bartender for many years, & I certainly would not want to work in a non tipped establishment.
Title: Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
Post by: Goosey on June 17, 2014, 02:22:18 PM
The issue with that no one seems to talk about in a non tipping culture is that the FOOD will cost more. That $10 burger that you had yesterday is now going to cost $13.  $2 for the server and $1 for the busser. Maybe throw in another one for the bartender. It's not that tips will no longer be expected, you just won't see them. You won't have any choice in the matter!  Good service, or bad service. Attentive server or someone who ignores you the entire time and rolls their eyes when you ask for sauce on the side. They'll all get 20%. I admit that I have been a server and bartender for many years, & I certainly would not want to work in a non tipped establishment.

But no one else is tipped based on how you feel they did their job. A mechanic gets paid no matter what his attitude is when he services your vehicle. If he does poorly or has a bad attitude, he could lose his job or otherwise be affected by his employer. Why should this be different for waitstaff?

There are waitstaff that work for venues that don't get tips. They've been fantastic IME.

I'd have no problem paying more not to tip. That $10 burger would be a $5 tip to me.

ETA: It's actually insulting to assume that if they didn't have to live on tips, waiters and waitresses would do a poor job out of sheer laziness/spite.
Title: Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
Post by: kategillian on June 17, 2014, 02:35:34 PM
Hmmm, I guess I didn't think about it like that. But if it's not the money that people objects to in a tipping culture, what is it? I'm not trying to be snarky, I genuinely want to know.
Title: Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
Post by: wolfie on June 17, 2014, 02:45:41 PM
Hmmm, I guess I didn't think about it like that. But if it's not the money that people objects to in a tipping culture, what is it? I'm not trying to be snarky, I genuinely want to know.

I just hate the practice. I have to figure out how much of a percentage I want to give them and then do math at the end of the table. i don't want to tip more then 20% but considering how many people are bragging about how they always do more then that I dread the day that 20% will become normal instead of the current 15%. I like looking at a price and knowing this is how much I will pay plus tax instead of having to add another 15 - 20% on top of that. It's just a pain.
Title: Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
Post by: Goosey on June 17, 2014, 02:45:49 PM
Hmmm, I guess I didn't think about it like that. But if it's not the money that people objects to in a tipping culture, what is it? I'm not trying to be snarky, I genuinely want to know.

Servers are taxed based on the tips they "should" get, not  what they actually get.

A server should not work for an hour for someone only to not get paid because the person decided not to tip for reasons outside of the server's control.

Servers can work for hours and make very little money for reasons outside of the server's control.
Title: Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
Post by: TootsNYC on June 17, 2014, 03:05:22 PM
Hmmm, I guess I didn't think about it like that. But if it's not the money that people objects to in a tipping culture, what is it? I'm not trying to be snarky, I genuinely want to know.

Well, for me personally, I object to tipping culture because it legally allows people to refuse to pay for services they've enjoyed because they simply don't feel like it.

I dislike it because it inserts an aura of uncertainty--am I tipping enough? too much? If I tip a lot, will I create a world in which other people who have less $ feel pressured to tip more?
Title: Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
Post by: Onyx_TKD on June 17, 2014, 03:07:31 PM
Hmmm, I guess I didn't think about it like that. But if it's not the money that people objects to in a tipping culture, what is it? I'm not trying to be snarky, I genuinely want to know.

Well, for me, I have no desire to be involved in deciding my server's pay. I want to pay for the goods and services I receive, like I do with almost every other good and/or service I purchase, and leave the server's salary between them and their employer. If the service is bad, I can complain to management...just like with any other non-tipped service.* I don't want to have to keep track of the "standard" tip (that society never seems to reach a consensus on and may change from area to area). I don't want to wonder what "message" will be read from my tip and whether it has any relation to my actual level of satisfaction with the service. I don't want to be held responsible for whether or not my server is taking home enough pay--paying their employees is supposed to be the employer's responsibility.

*Incidentally, there are several counter-service places where I regularly buy lunch. Many of the employees know me and I have always received excellent, friendly service. There is no expectation of tipping at any of these places, and if there is any tip jar out, I haven't noticed it and have never used it. That's what I would love to see for sit-down service as well--I pay for what I'm purchasing, their employer pays them for their service and prices the food to accommodate that, and the employees give good service just because it's the right way to perform their jobs (and stay employed).

Also, this:
I dislike it because it inserts an aura of uncertainty--am I tipping enough? too much? If I tip a lot, will I create a world in which other people who have less $ feel pressured to tip more?
Title: Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
Post by: lowspark on June 17, 2014, 03:17:16 PM
I like looking at a price and knowing this is how much I will pay plus tax

This.
In addition, I'd like to see pricing here like it is in other countries, where tax is also included. At least that's how it was when I visited London several years ago. If the price was marked 5, well, that's exactly what you paid. No more, no less. This went for menu prices and everything else.

Not seeing the final price, listed right there on the menu was a culture shock which my parents, who immigrated to the US before I was born, really never got over. Due to that, they almost never ate in full service restaurants where tipping was required. It just went totally against their grain.

It's just so much cleaner and easier to see the actual price, including everything, right there in front of you, with no additional figuring required.

And I totally agree that it's a ridiculous assumption that servers will suddenly start doing a crummy job simply because they are no longer earning tips. If that were true, the reverse would be true. Every server would now be giving the very best service imaginable since their tips do depend on it. And that certainly isn't the way it is.
Title: Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
Post by: Sophia on June 17, 2014, 03:24:10 PM
I would avoid the restaurant.  I see it as equivalent to a forced tip which makes me grumpy.
 
I have noticed that the restaurant service in Germany was sub-par until I got my bosses permission to tip 15%, then service was excellent.  There is more to waiting table than taking an order and bringing it to the table.
Title: Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
Post by: kategillian on June 17, 2014, 03:30:03 PM

And I totally agree that it's a ridiculous assumption that servers will suddenly start doing a crummy job simply because they are no longer earning tips. If that were true, the reverse would be true. Every server would now be giving the very best service imaginable since their tips do depend on it. And that certainly isn't the way it is.
[/quote]

This kind of goes to my point that the decision to be taken out of your hands. Right now if you get bad service it can be reflected in your tip, but if we switch to the other way and you get bad service you won't have a choice.
Title: Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
Post by: lowspark on June 17, 2014, 03:35:40 PM
Quote
And I totally agree that it's a ridiculous assumption that servers will suddenly start doing a crummy job simply because they are no longer earning tips. If that were true, the reverse would be true. Every server would now be giving the very best service imaginable since their tips do depend on it. And that certainly isn't the way it is.

This kind of goes to my point that the decision to be taken out of your hands. Right now if you get bad service it can be reflected in your tip, but if we switch to the other way and you get bad service you won't have a choice.

To me, it proves that leaving the option to tip in the customer's hands does not guarantee good service.
So by the same token, taking it out of the customer's hands would not incentivize bad service.

Title: Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
Post by: kategillian on June 17, 2014, 03:39:32 PM
I asure you that there are mechanics out there that will put your car to the front of the line, if you slip them a little something extra.
Title: Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
Post by: kategillian on June 17, 2014, 03:51:18 PM
I'm sorry, I'm not getting what you're saying there.
Title: Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
Post by: lowspark on June 17, 2014, 03:52:05 PM
I asure you that there are mechanics out there that will put your car to the front of the line, if you slip them a little something extra.

Whose car will they put at the front of the line if everyone is expected to tip? Won't we just end up right back where we are now?
Title: Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
Post by: marcel on June 17, 2014, 04:17:47 PM
I'm sorry, I'm not getting what you're saying there.
In the current US payment culture for waitstaff (which as I said earlier is not tipping culture at all) you are telling your waiter that unless they give you excellent service you will not pay them. So in your equivalent of the mechanic, you would not slip him something to put you in the front of the line, but yo0u are saying unless you put me in the front of the line, I will not pay you.
Title: Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
Post by: marcel on June 17, 2014, 04:22:19 PM
i think this is a very good initiative. At the moment the US does not have a tipping culture, it has a variable pay culture. A lot of restaurants doing this for a few years, (enough to make it the standard method for restaurants) is probably the best way to get the US  back to a tipping culture.


$10 or 20 percent of hourly food sales - makes me wonder if waitstaff might be tempted to hurry one table along in order to seat the next family and sell them more food.
That is what waitstaff in a high tipping environment do anyway. It is actualy the reason I generaly prefer European restaurants over US ones

Confused, here. I've not seen no tipping in the US and we have been to large cities in the past few years and not run into a that situation.

I would abide by it and see what happens culturally if it catches on.
Let me clarify. tipping culture is what most of the world has. You enjoy your meal, and when you are very happen, you give a small financial token of appreciation to your waiter.


What the US has is a payment culture for waitstaff, where the customer decides after the dinner how much the received service is worth this is no longer tipping, no matter what you call it.
Title: Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
Post by: kategillian on June 17, 2014, 04:41:07 PM
Oh, no, I don't think car mechanic are part of the tipping culture. I just think some of them WILL slip your car to the head of the line, if you give them something extra. and there are a lot of people that we're 'supposed' to tip, like hairdressers & valets. And it works in the restaurant industry because it is expected at this point.

I certainly wish them luck! They're up front about it, so everyone knows what they're getting into.
Title: Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
Post by: kategillian on June 17, 2014, 05:21:45 PM
Oh, no, I don't think car mechanic are part of the tipping culture. I just think some of them WILL slip your car to the head of the line, if you give them something extra. and there are a lot of people that we're 'supposed' to tip, like hairdressers & valets. And it works in the restaurant industry because it is expected at this point.

I certainly wish them luck! They're up front about it, so everyone knows what they're getting into.

Yes, that was my original point. And my question to you then, if you are in favor of keeping tipping culture in the food service industry, because you like being able to pay for labor based on your assessment of their performance, why are you not also advocating having tipping culture in the automotive repair industry for the same reasons?

But then we WOULD just be paying for the parts, it would cost less, and I would have no problem tipping.
Title: Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
Post by: Sharnita on June 17, 2014, 05:34:53 PM
$10 or 20 percent of hourly food sales - makes me wonder if waitstaff might be tempted to hurry one table along in order to seat the next family and sell them more food.

They already are, aren't they?

Not exactly. They try to strike a balance.  Yes they think about the next table but they have to make the current table happy if they want a good tip. So if that table wants to linger,  get a refill, etc. there might be a profit in that through the tip.

When people describe service in countried without tipping it sounds a bit less "warm" for lack of a better word. It would be interesting to see if there was a shift like this in a nontipping restaurant in a society that still embraced tipping overall.
Title: Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
Post by: wolfie on June 17, 2014, 05:55:14 PM
$10 or 20 percent of hourly food sales - makes me wonder if waitstaff might be tempted to hurry one table along in order to seat the next family and sell them more food.

They already are, aren't they?

Not exactly. They try to strike a balance.  Yes they think about the next table but they have to make the current table happy if they want a good tip. So if that table wants to linger,  get a refill, etc. there might be a profit in that through the tip.

When people describe service in countried without tipping it sounds a bit less "warm" for lack of a better word. It would be interesting to see if there was a shift like this in a nontipping restaurant in a society that still embraced tipping overall.

Part of that is cultural too. Many counties that don't have a tipping culture don't  want servers who are that "warm" either. 
Title: Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
Post by: shhh its me on June 17, 2014, 06:15:08 PM
There's a new restaurant not too far from me that intends to do this, as well.

As much as I applaud the idea, I think that they could have trouble recruiting staff.  Here, wait-staff must be paid the provincial minimum wage.  And in high-end restaurants, especially those in tourist areas (such as the one I'm referring to), the waiters can make a very nice living even after portioning tips out to support staff.

They will have trouble recruiting if they are offering significantly less than minimum wages plus tips. If they are offering close to that, they won't.

I think they may have more problems with patrons, since their menu prices will have to be higher than other restaurants, to pay that salary. Some people will have no problem seeing that they won't have to add 15% or 20% on top of the price, others will feel it is too expensive, since they will still be mentally add a tip, from habit.

Add the people who weren't tipping would be paying more.

I'm not sure if it will succeed but I think its a good idea to at least try.
Title: Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
Post by: Katana_Geldar on June 17, 2014, 06:19:45 PM
I hate too "warm" wait staff when it's clear they aren't being genuine and just talking to you so it looks like they're being attentive. Such as when they ask over and over if I'm enjoying my meal.

We tipped at a restaurant recently, actually. Australia, so no rtpping culture but DH and do occasionally like being generous with above and beyond service. It was a high end restaurant for my birthday, and it was fantastic. This restaurant is known for the little touches they give that you normally wouldn't see, like an amuse bouche before entrees and a palate cleanser between mains and dessert.dining there is not just a meal, it's an experience.
Title: Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
Post by: kategillian on June 17, 2014, 06:25:41 PM
Oh, no, I don't think car mechanic are part of the tipping culture. I just think some of them WILL slip your car to the head of the line, if you give them something extra. and there are a lot of people that we're 'supposed' to tip, like hairdressers & valets. And it works in the restaurant industry because it is expected at this point.

I certainly wish them luck! They're up front about it, so everyone knows what they're getting into.

Yes, that was my original point. And my question to you then, if you are in favor of keeping tipping culture in the food service industry, because you like being able to pay for labor based on your assessment of their performance, why are you not also advocating having tipping culture in the automotive repair industry for the same reasons?

But then we WOULD just be paying for the parts, it would cost less, and I would have no problem tipping.

But the question isn't if you "would have a problem with it", the question is "would you prefer that system to the system we have now?"


Well, if that's the underlying question, then no. No, I would not prefer it to the system that we have now.
Title: Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
Post by: Marga on June 17, 2014, 06:49:38 PM
I'm reading all this with a keen interest. I come from a non-tipping culture (the Netherlands) and I love it.
Service in the food industry is, on the whole, awesome, servers are friendly, polite, knowledgeable and know when to leave the customers be. You're also not rushed: when you occupy a table in a restaurant for dinner, you're not expected to relinquish it to the next customer, it's yours for the evening. So you can linger over your coffee, just talking with your company, or reading your book even, without any (pointed) looks from the waitstaff. Also the waitstaff doesn't try to ingratiate themselves to you, in the hopes of a better tip: there's no need to grovel when they're paid a living wage (usually well above the legal minimum wage).
And if the service is really, really good? Then you can decide to tip, as generously as you like, keeping in mind that 10% is considered very generous indeed. Or you don't tip, that's fine as well: tips are appreciated but never expected.
And if the service is bad? You complain and/or vote with your feet, as you do in any other kind of business.
Title: Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
Post by: sammycat on June 17, 2014, 07:05:45 PM
When people describe service in countried without tipping it sounds a bit less "warm" for lack of a better word. It would be interesting to see if there was a shift like this in a nontipping restaurant in a society that still embraced tipping overall.

I live in a non-tipping country (Australia) and have also visited the US many times (with an upcoming trip in a few months).  I can't say I've noticed any difference in the service between the two counties. I've had good and bad in both places; mainly good thankfully.  In any event, I absolutely hate waitstaff (or anyone in a business transaction really) being too friendly and trying to ingratiate themselves into my situation. But if they are going to be super friendly, I'd rather they did it because it was just a genuine part of their personality (or work ethic) rather than because they're trying to squeeze another dollar out of me.

The main difference is that in the US I feel as though I have to 'critique' the service all the time to work out whether it's worth a good/very good/1 penny tip. I can't simply relax and enjoy my meal and conversation with my companions. I also feel as though the waitstaff are only being nice because they're trying to get a bigger tip, rather than because it's their job and serving their customers well is part of the basic job description. The difference in menu prices is so minimal so as not to be a concern, so I really, really, really, resent having to pay extra for my dining experience simply because the waitstaff aren't paid properly by their employer. In fact, by the time tax and tip have been added onto the menu price, the US meal probably ends up being more expensive than a similar one here.

It's also extremely frustrating to not know how much my meal is going to cost until the bill comes because that's when tax and tip is added.  When I look at  a menu here and the hamburger has a price next to it of $6.95, then I know that that is all I am going to pay for my meal. Not $6.95 + ??Tip + ??Tax.

I just wish the restaurant in the OP was in one of the places we'll be visiting during our upcoming trip as I'd make sure we dined there. Often.
Title: Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
Post by: kategillian on June 17, 2014, 07:13:40 PM
Oh, no, I don't think car mechanic are part of the tipping culture. I just think some of them WILL slip your car to the head of the line, if you give them something extra. and there are a lot of people that we're 'supposed' to tip, like hairdressers & valets. And it works in the restaurant industry because it is expected at this point.

I certainly wish them luck! They're up front about it, so everyone knows what they're getting into.

Yes, that was my original point. And my question to you then, if you are in favor of keeping tipping culture in the food service industry, because you like being able to pay for labor based on your assessment of their performance, why are you not also advocating having tipping culture in the automotive repair industry for the same reasons?

But then we WOULD just be paying for the parts, it would cost less, and I would have no problem tipping.

But the question isn't if you "would have a problem with it", the question is "would you prefer that system to the system we have now?"


Well, if that's the underlying question, then no. No, I would not prefer it to the system that we have now.

Then why do you prefer it in the food service industry?

 Because it has always worked for me. I tip more for good service, and tip less for bad service. How many times have you been in a store or doctors office or whatever and gotten lousy service and thought, well, I could tell them about this, but a) they probably won't care, & b) I have to take time out of my busy life to have this conversation. (I'm sure some people will care, but mostly, I really don't think that they do.) I know that they have whole departments dedicated to customer service, but who is really reading all of these notes we leave?

 A couple of weeks ago my phone did one of those mandatory updates, and five minutes later it just died. So I had to go online and have a conversation about it and get a new phone, and of course it was Memorial Day weekend so they couldn't ship it out til Tuesday, so I didn't have a phone for 5 days. Now, I wrote them a letter about how disappointed I was, and maybe they shouldn't do this on holiday weekends. Did I hear a reply? No, of course I did not.

Sorry, I know that was off topic, but it was an example of being able to give an immediate review ( a less than great tip) as opposed to just sending your review off into to universe, and hoping someone cares.
Title: Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
Post by: Goosey on June 17, 2014, 08:52:26 PM
As to immediate review, there is always the option of getting the manager. Just like anywhere else. "Can I speak to a manager please" instead of "I don't like your service so I'm going to dock your pay".

I think the idea that tips are important in promoting good performance is absolutely wrong. Do you know what drives good performance? Raises. And security. And promotions. And bonuses. And awards. People will work hard to excel and advance. The desperation that comes with "I hope this guy
doesn't stiff me" or "I have the slow shift this week. I hope I can pay my rent" or "why was my tip so low? I did everything right" absolutely does not drive good performance.

It's also important to note that while a tipping culture may work for an individual, it can also be very harmful to people in general. I'm sure a lot of people like the "No tip!!" option as a form of punishment. But, unless you'd like it done to you, I'd try to imagine yourself in their shoes.
Title: Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
Post by: marcel on June 17, 2014, 09:13:21 PM
Oh, no, I don't think car mechanic are part of the tipping culture. I just think some of them WILL slip your car to the head of the line, if you give them something extra. and there are a lot of people that we're 'supposed' to tip, like hairdressers & valets. And it works in the restaurant industry because it is expected at this point.

I certainly wish them luck! They're up front about it, so everyone knows what they're getting into.

Yes, that was my original point. And my question to you then, if you are in favor of keeping tipping culture in the food service industry, because you like being able to pay for labor based on your assessment of their performance, why are you not also advocating having tipping culture in the automotive repair industry for the same reasons?

But then we WOULD just be paying for the parts, it would cost less, and I would have no problem tipping.

But the question isn't if you "would have a problem with it", the question is "would you prefer that system to the system we have now?"


Well, if that's the underlying question, then no. No, I would not prefer it to the system that we have now.

Then why do you prefer it in the food service industry?

 Because it has always worked for me. I tip more for good service, and tip less for bad service. How many times have you been in a store or doctors office or whatever and gotten lousy service and thought, well, I could tell them about this, but a) they probably won't care, & b) I have to take time out of my busy life to have this conversation. (I'm sure some people will care, but mostly, I really don't think that they do.) I know that they have whole departments dedicated to customer service, but who is really reading all of these notes we leave?

 A couple of weeks ago my phone did one of those mandatory updates, and five minutes later it just died. So I had to go online and have a conversation about it and get a new phone, and of course it was Memorial Day weekend so they couldn't ship it out til Tuesday, so I didn't have a phone for 5 days. Now, I wrote them a letter about how disappointed I was, and maybe they shouldn't do this on holiday weekends. Did I hear a reply? No, of course I did not.

Sorry, I know that was off topic, but it was an example of being able to give an immediate review ( a less than great tip) as opposed to just sending your review off into to universe, and hoping someone cares.
I would still love to here why you believe the food industry or people working in food industry are so much different from people working in any other industry. In a way it is denigrating to people in a certain industry to say: "for the sole reason that you chose to work in this industry I do not have faith in you doing a good job, Actualy my faith in your work, compared to anybody else I have to deal with is so low, that I do not want to agree on a price before you suply your service but unlike when dealing with other people, I will completely subjectively judge your work afterwards and pay according to that. Moreover I will not tell you beforehand what my expectations are exactly and what I will pay for fullfilling these expectations." What is it that makes it okay to say this to waitstaff, but not to a mechanic or to a lawyer?
Title: Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
Post by: marcel on June 17, 2014, 09:15:14 PM
I'm reading all this with a keen interest. I come from a non-tipping culture (the Netherlands) and I love it.
Service in the food industry is, on the whole, awesome, servers are friendly, polite, knowledgeable and know when to leave the customers be. You're also not rushed: when you occupy a table in a restaurant for dinner, you're not expected to relinquish it to the next customer, it's yours for the evening. So you can linger over your coffee, just talking with your company, or reading your book even, without any (pointed) looks from the waitstaff. Also the waitstaff doesn't try to ingratiate themselves to you, in the hopes of a better tip: there's no need to grovel when they're paid a living wage (usually well above the legal minimum wage).
And if the service is really, really good? Then you can decide to tip, as generously as you like, keeping in mind that 10% is considered very generous indeed. Or you don't tip, that's fine as well: tips are appreciated but never expected.
And if the service is bad? You complain and/or vote with your feet, as you do in any other kind of business.
This is not true, the Netherlands is a tipping culture. What yopu describe is tipping culture, what the US has isn't.
Title: Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
Post by: miranova on June 17, 2014, 09:56:49 PM
Personally I'd be fine with getting rid of tipping (and yes I know the price of the food would go up, that's fine with me).  However, I doubt that most servers I know would prefer it.  Yep, they get some jerks that don't tip, but most people tip decently and some tip very well.  Do they really want to lose that in exchange for a steady but potentially lower wage?
Title: Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
Post by: Library Dragon on June 17, 2014, 10:10:43 PM
I would like to see this catch on in the US.  The restaurant has been smart in building the framework of $10 or 20%. 

Many people work in customer service fields that never get tips and do a great job. Many waitstaff across the world do excellent jobs in restaurants without expecting tips.  The common factor is pride and enjoyment in their work.
Title: Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
Post by: Sophia on June 17, 2014, 10:26:17 PM
I disagree with the idea that waitstaff don't notice the tip amount and correlate it to the service. Through trial and error, I learned things like how important it was to 'ask' things like whether they wanted an iced tea refill using only body language so I didn't interrupt the conversation.  How to figure out when people were in a hurry, and when they wanted to linger.  How to figure out who to offer the cork in a gay couple.  When to keep the interactions to a minimum and when to be friendly.  For example, the clientele at the last place I worked absolutely loved it when I would answer "No" to a request. Really, I got laughs and usually another 10% tip.   But, I learned the hard way that it wasn't a joke when the request was for alcohol.  All of these things had a direct impact on the tip.  I made good money, and I never worried about the rent.  But, if you are going to work, you might as well make as much as you can.   
Title: Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
Post by: MariaE on June 18, 2014, 04:08:22 AM
My problem with tipping has nothing at all to do with the money and everything to do with the expectation. Denmark is much like the Netherlands in that we will tip for good/exceptional service, so it's not that we don't tip at all - we just only tip when it's deserved.

If I get average service, why should I tip? Yet even here, on this forum, I've had people tell me it's comparable to theft if I don't (don't worry, I do - some things just have to be done even though I don't agree with them). That's not a tip, that's a fee, and should be listed as such.

I've never noticed a difference in level of service in tipping countries vs. non-tipping countries - it seems to be much the same. The difference comes in my perception of the service, because I find myself "grading" it in the US, and just enjoying it elsewhere. So a waiter going above and beyond in the US = "Wow, he's really angling for a good tip, isn't he?" whereas a waiter going above and beyond in Denmark = "Wow! Awesome service :) "

I know the last bit is my problem and not the actual thought-process of the waiter, but it's part of my personal reason for disliking the US tipping mentality.
Title: Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
Post by: etiquettenut on June 18, 2014, 06:10:48 AM
As a former waitress, I think the Netherlands model of an actual tipping culture would be best. So, you get your regular wages you are entitled to and if you do an exceptional job, people give you something extra.

I will also disagree that people's tips impacted my future performances in a significant way. You know when you've screwed up as a server. I would not be surprised to see the fact that I forgot to order the appetizers or ordered someone the wrong entree reflected in the tip. However, if someone tipped poorly when I did nothing wrong I just assumed they were a cheapskate jerk.

The fact that someone would tip less because a server had the audacity to ask, "Would you like some more tea?" rather than just silently holding up a pitcher is what's wrong with the US' "tipping culture" in general.
Title: Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
Post by: Margo on June 18, 2014, 09:55:09 AM
I'm from the UK where we don't have the expectation of tipping that there is in the US. I like the sound of this.

I dislike the expectation that you must tip. I do it, because I know it is the custom of the country, but I don't like it, and it can get stressful sometimes wondering who to tip and how much.

I also think it would be fascinating to compare the way in which customers treat the staff, with a similar restaurant in a similar location with a standard US tipping policy. I think that the direct nature of a tip does mean that customer / worker relationship is different to where there isn't such an immediate link, some good (for instance, direct incentive to staff to address any concerns/queries) and some bad (customers feeling they can be very demanding and withhold tips for any petty dissatisfaction).

(the other reason  I would like it is because I have had experience of getting poor service where the reason appeared to be that an assumption had been made that I wouldn't tip well. Which then leads to the dilemma of trying to decide whether to tip well to try to counter the preconception, or to tip less well because of the poor service but in doing so, perpetuate those assumptions...)
Title: Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
Post by: Yvaine on June 18, 2014, 10:02:59 AM
$10 or 20 percent of hourly food sales - makes me wonder if waitstaff might be tempted to hurry one table along in order to seat the next family and sell them more food.

They already are, aren't they?

Not exactly. They try to strike a balance.  Yes they think about the next table but they have to make the current table happy if they want a good tip. So if that table wants to linger,  get a refill, etc. there might be a profit in that through the tip.

When people describe service in countried without tipping it sounds a bit less "warm" for lack of a better word. It would be interesting to see if there was a shift like this in a nontipping restaurant in a society that still embraced tipping overall.

I'd love to have less "warm" service. I think expecting service employees to be gushingly faux-thrilled to be helping you--as opposed to just calmly polite--is kind of dehumanizing for the employee and can be sort of...alarming for the customer, too, if taken too far. I've had servers whose enthusiasm was too obviously edged with fear (of bad tips) and it was uncomfortable to feel like I had that much power over someone, if that makes any sense. i felt like Joffrey Baratheon deciding whether to behead somebody. I'd rather have have service that's more neutral (but still polite! please note, i'm not advocating rudeness or anything) than gushing.
Title: Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
Post by: Luci on June 18, 2014, 10:26:01 AM
I'm reading all this with a keen interest. I come from a non-tipping culture (the Netherlands) and I love it.
Service in the food industry is, on the whole, awesome, servers are friendly, polite, knowledgeable and know when to leave the customers be. You're also not rushed: when you occupy a table in a restaurant for dinner, you're not expected to relinquish it to the next customer, it's yours for the evening. So you can linger over your coffee, just talking with your company, or reading your book even, without any (pointed) looks from the waitstaff. Also the waitstaff doesn't try to ingratiate themselves to you, in the hopes of a better tip: there's no need to grovel when they're paid a living wage (usually well above the legal minimum wage).
And if the service is really, really good? Then you can decide to tip, as generously as you like, keeping in mind that 10% is considered very generous indeed. Or you don't tip, that's fine as well: tips are appreciated but never expected.
And if the service is bad? You complain and/or vote with your feet, as you do in any other kind of business.
This is not true, the Netherlands is a tipping culture. What yopu describe is tipping culture, what the US has isn't.

You have said this three times about the US. We do have tipping culture by our definition, so I don't agree with this. The restaurant in question is in the US, so I think we should go with that. I won't mind if it changes here, though.

I do love reading about "tips"  in other countries, however, and how it works for them, so please keep the stories coming!
Title: Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
Post by: lowspark on June 18, 2014, 10:35:50 AM

(the other reason  I would like it is because I have had experience of getting poor service where the reason appeared to be that an assumption had been made that I wouldn't tip well. Which then leads to the dilemma of trying to decide whether to tip well to try to counter the preconception, or to tip less well because of the poor service but in doing so, perpetuate those assumptions...)

I used to worry about this too. But I got over it. Giving me bad service because you think I'm going to tip poorly is a self-fulfilling prophesy. Yeah, I'm perpetuating the assumption by tipping poorly, but then if I tip well, I'm sending the message to the server that even if s/he gives terrible service, they'll get tipped well so why bother to try?

If a server gives different levels of service to different people based on a groundless prediction of their tipping habits, they are probably going to end up with a lot of crummy tips and will eventually figure out that this may not be the ideal career for that person.

And this is, actually, another argument for eliminating tipping as a required form of payment. Everyone should really receive the same level of service, and pay the same amount for it. Servers should be serving each and every customer to the best of their ability, not picking and choosing according to who looks like they'll give a good tip.

Title: Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
Post by: amylouky on June 18, 2014, 10:58:11 AM
Really, calling this a "no tipping" restaurant is false. What it really is, is an auto-tip restaurant. The server is guaranteed a 20% "tip" from each table, unless that wouldn't make them $10.00 per hour, in which case they're getting more than 20%. That's a pretty good deal for a server.. most I know are very happy with 20% tips. It would be interesting to figure out whether tips normally average out to above or below 20%.

The $10/20% will be added to the cost of food, so it's really just an enforced service charge, rather than an at-will tip. That's not to say I don't like the idea.. I would have loved it in my server days. I usually tip 20% anyway (and often more, if the boys have made a mess). I guess that would be my only problem, not having the option to reward servers that go above and beyond.
Title: Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
Post by: Onyx_TKD on June 18, 2014, 11:21:48 AM
Really, calling this a "no tipping" restaurant is false. What it really is, is an auto-tip restaurant. The server is guaranteed a 20% "tip" from each table, unless that wouldn't make them $10.00 per hour, in which case they're getting more than 20%. That's a pretty good deal for a server.. most I know are very happy with 20% tips. It would be interesting to figure out whether tips normally average out to above or below 20%.

The $10/20% will be added to the cost of food, so it's really just an enforced service charge, rather than an at-will tip. That's not to say I don't like the idea.. I would have loved it in my server days. I usually tip 20% anyway (and often more, if the boys have made a mess). I guess that would be my only problem, not having the option to reward servers that go above and beyond.

If we're going to start calling every sales-based payment method for restaurant employees a "tip," regardless of who pays it and why, then the definition of "tip" is going to get ridiculously broad. This a flat percentage paid by the employer as their employees wages and built into the price of the food. We already have a term for this type of pay: commission. "Service charge" is a little more vague, but still more fitting than "tip." Would anyone say that that, e.g., car salesmen are paid in "auto-tips" just because they receive commissions for their sales? Like other commission systems, the restaurant in the OP compensates the employees based on the sales they make without attempting to be a way to review the service. It's a different system from tipping (both the American expected-tip system and the tip-for-exceptional-service system). The only major commonality is that the OP commission system and the American tip system both depend on a percentage of the sales, but that's nothing exceptional, since a lot of sales commissions are percentage based.
Title: Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
Post by: mime on June 18, 2014, 11:29:02 AM
I have been finding these posts very interesting!

Midwest USA here. I think of the current US tipping system as choosing how much to pay for the service you received. I would strongly prefer the non-tipping models (or, to be clear: the model where tips are unexpected and appreciated and not needed to get the staff's pay up to some minimum level). I prefer it for all the reasons that have been stated already, as I already like it for other services I buy, like car maintenance etc. I have no problem with the cost of the service being embedded in the cost of my meal, just like other industries embed cost of service into their whole package.

I also strongly prefer "professional" service over "warm" service. I want the servers to be helpful, but to otherwise disappear into the background of my night out.

The success of this model in so many other countries is proof that it *can* be done, and service is still great and servers are still happy. The question I wonder is whether we (the US) willing enough as a whole to part from our current ways to make that transition. We all get very comfortable in our ways, but I see so many forums and article responses online where servers complain about having to work for tips. I don't know if that's the majority of servers' feelings, or if they are just a very vocal minority... or if the vocal people will always see the grass greener on the other side of the fence.

In short: I like the idea of change and would gladly pay for it. I'm skeptical that such a culture-shift will happen here, though.
Title: Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
Post by: amylouky on June 18, 2014, 11:36:56 AM
Really, calling this a "no tipping" restaurant is false. What it really is, is an auto-tip restaurant. The server is guaranteed a 20% "tip" from each table, unless that wouldn't make them $10.00 per hour, in which case they're getting more than 20%. That's a pretty good deal for a server.. most I know are very happy with 20% tips. It would be interesting to figure out whether tips normally average out to above or below 20%.

The $10/20% will be added to the cost of food, so it's really just an enforced service charge, rather than an at-will tip. That's not to say I don't like the idea.. I would have loved it in my server days. I usually tip 20% anyway (and often more, if the boys have made a mess). I guess that would be my only problem, not having the option to reward servers that go above and beyond.

If we're going to start calling every sales-based payment method for restaurant employees a "tip," regardless of who pays it and why, then the definition of "tip" is going to get ridiculously broad. This a flat percentage paid by the employer as their employees wages and built into the price of the food. We already have a term for this type of pay: commission. "Service charge" is a little more vague, but still more fitting than "tip." Would anyone say that that, e.g., car salesmen are paid in "auto-tips" just because they receive commissions for their sales? Like other commission systems, the restaurant in the OP compensates the employees based on the sales they make without attempting to be a way to review the service. It's a different system from tipping (both the American expected-tip system and the tip-for-exceptional-service system). The only major commonality is that the OP commission system and the American tip system both depend on a percentage of the sales, but that's nothing exceptional, since a lot of sales commissions are percentage based.

Sorry, I meant it as in the auto-tip process that already exists. IE, in some restaurants they automatically add 18 or 20 percent to your bill for large parties (at least, in my area). To me, this is the same thing.. they're not doing away with the tip, they're just rolling it in to the total price. Commission would be okay too I guess, but I think of that more as a sales and marketing payment structure, rather than a service oriented profession.
Title: Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
Post by: lowspark on June 18, 2014, 11:45:11 AM
Since the 20% really is a commission for sales, is that better or worse than if we went to a system where servers were just paid a salary or wage per hour, with pay level based on performance?

I get that there are definitely certain types of sales positions where commission is preferred because you can make a lot more money that way. But I'm wondering if restaurant service falls into that category.

The current tipping system is an attempt at performance based pay, is it not? Theoretically, the better service the server provides, the better tips s/he will earn. If we go to a straight 20% of sales for all servers, that eliminates the performance aspect of it.
Title: Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
Post by: Onyx_TKD on June 18, 2014, 01:06:16 PM
Since the 20% really is a commission for sales, is that better or worse than if we went to a system where servers were just paid a salary or wage per hour, with pay level based on performance?

I get that there are definitely certain types of sales positions where commission is preferred because you can make a lot more money that way. But I'm wondering if restaurant service falls into that category.

The current tipping system is an attempt at performance based pay, is it not? Theoretically, the better service the server provides, the better tips s/he will earn. If we go to a straight 20% of sales for all servers, that eliminates the performance aspect of it.

From my perspective, if a server is giving poor service, the natural consequence would be to assign them to hours and sections of the restaurant where they will impact the fewest customers, not cut their pay. In a commission-based system like the OP restaurant, this would almost certainly have the side effect of lowering their pay as well. If someone is giving poor service, then lowering their pay doesn't do anything concrete to help the customers get better service. All it does is provide a nebulous motivation to "improve."* OTOH, Adjusting the shift assignments so customers are only stuck with the "bad" servers when there are no "good" servers available (i.e., during off hours, when the restaurant is really busy, etc.) does have a direct impact on service. And I would expect that being stuck with less desirable shifts (and the resulting reduced sales commissions) would provide motivation to improve just as well as a direct pay cut.

*Another issue with adjusting pay based on performance is that you would need a very objective measure of performance. Otherwise, an employee's wages would be at the whim of whoever assesses performance, and I think that would open the business up to some nasty legal battles. Sales is one possible measure, on the assumption that improved sales means the customers are getting prompt and efficient service that allows for high table turnover and/or happy enough to linger over additional courses/drinks, or agree to upsells suggested by the server. It's also a measure that is directly linked to the businesses profits. If you wanted to get away from the commission model, you'd need other objective performance measures, and I'm not sure what they would be.
Title: Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
Post by: Yvaine on June 18, 2014, 01:10:39 PM
Since the 20% really is a commission for sales, is that better or worse than if we went to a system where servers were just paid a salary or wage per hour, with pay level based on performance?

I get that there are definitely certain types of sales positions where commission is preferred because you can make a lot more money that way. But I'm wondering if restaurant service falls into that category.

The current tipping system is an attempt at performance based pay, is it not? Theoretically, the better service the server provides, the better tips s/he will earn. If we go to a straight 20% of sales for all servers, that eliminates the performance aspect of it.

It's an attempt, but by its very nature a flawed one. I think that over a long stretch of time, a good server will, statistically, end up making a decent amount in tips. But on the day-to-day level it can end up being affected by so many things. Some customers won't tip if they don't find the server physically attractive, won't tip if their kid throws a tantrum, never tip on principle and happened to be in that server's restaurant and section that day, won't tip just because they're in a bad mood, etc.
Title: Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
Post by: shhh its me on June 18, 2014, 01:24:58 PM
Really, calling this a "no tipping" restaurant is false. What it really is, is an auto-tip restaurant. The server is guaranteed a 20% "tip" from each table, unless that wouldn't make them $10.00 per hour, in which case they're getting more than 20%. That's a pretty good deal for a server.. most I know are very happy with 20% tips. It would be interesting to figure out whether tips normally average out to above or below 20%.

The $10/20% will be added to the cost of food, so it's really just an enforced service charge, rather than an at-will tip. That's not to say I don't like the idea.. I would have loved it in my server days. I usually tip 20% anyway (and often more, if the boys have made a mess). I guess that would be my only problem, not having the option to reward servers that go above and beyond.

If we're going to start calling every sales-based payment method for restaurant employees a "tip," regardless of who pays it and why, then the definition of "tip" is going to get ridiculously broad. This a flat percentage paid by the employer as their employees wages and built into the price of the food. We already have a term for this type of pay: commission. "Service charge" is a little more vague, but still more fitting than "tip." Would anyone say that that, e.g., car salesmen are paid in "auto-tips" just because they receive commissions for their sales? Like other commission systems, the restaurant in the OP compensates the employees based on the sales they make without attempting to be a way to review the service. It's a different system from tipping (both the American expected-tip system and the tip-for-exceptional-service system). The only major commonality is that the OP commission system and the American tip system both depend on a percentage of the sales, but that's nothing exceptional, since a lot of sales commissions are percentage based.

Really it would be like any business.  The business charges a price and pays wages as part of their costs.

the way tipping works now would be insane in any other industry.  I wouldn't want to be a phone CSR my pay was based on "if you liked your service pay 10 cents to the CSR buy credit card now.  Because we (the company) pay them $2.65 a hour." or a grocery store cashier.

My issue with tipping tips are now their wages, $2.65 is not a wage. This one group of people is subjected to customers being able to just not pay them for their work. When I've heard people describe why they left  "poor" tip its about 10 to 1 "I don't tip/It's not really mandatory/I only have enough money for the meal" VS "I received poor service" and about 3 of 4 of the "poor service" complaints are restaurant issues not waitstaff issues.
Title: Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
Post by: lowspark on June 18, 2014, 01:27:53 PM
Since the 20% really is a commission for sales, is that better or worse than if we went to a system where servers were just paid a salary or wage per hour, with pay level based on performance?

I get that there are definitely certain types of sales positions where commission is preferred because you can make a lot more money that way. But I'm wondering if restaurant service falls into that category.

The current tipping system is an attempt at performance based pay, is it not? Theoretically, the better service the server provides, the better tips s/he will earn. If we go to a straight 20% of sales for all servers, that eliminates the performance aspect of it.

From my perspective, if a server is giving poor service, the natural consequence would be to assign them to hours and sections of the restaurant where they will impact the fewest customers, not cut their pay. In a commission-based system like the OP restaurant, this would almost certainly have the side effect of lowering their pay as well. If someone is giving poor service, then lowering their pay doesn't do anything concrete to help the customers get better service. All it does is provide a nebulous motivation to "improve."* OTOH, Adjusting the shift assignments so customers are only stuck with the "bad" servers when there are no "good" servers available (i.e., during off hours, when the restaurant is really busy, etc.) does have a direct impact on service. And I would expect that being stuck with less desirable shifts (and the resulting reduced sales commissions) would provide motivation to improve just as well as a direct pay cut.

*Another issue with adjusting pay based on performance is that you would need a very objective measure of performance. Otherwise, an employee's wages would be at the whim of whoever assesses performance, and I think that would open the business up to some nasty legal battles. Sales is one possible measure, on the assumption that improved sales means the customers are getting prompt and efficient service that allows for high table turnover and/or happy enough to linger over additional courses/drinks, or agree to upsells suggested by the server. It's also a measure that is directly linked to the businesses profits. If you wanted to get away from the commission model, you'd need other objective performance measures, and I'm not sure what they would be.

I'm not saying their pay should be cut for bad performance, quite the opposite. In the performance-based pay model, good servers would get pay increases for good service. Bad servers would get coached on how they could improve and eventually get fired if their performance didn't improve.

At least, this is how it works at my job. I get periodic reviews and raises/bonuses if I'm doing well. People who aren't performing up to par get feedback on what needs improvement and eventually, if they don't improve, they are let go.

How objective is the measure of performance? Well, it's not. It's subjective. It's based on how my boss perceives my performance. I don't work in a situation where output can be measured, as in, how many widgets I produced and whether they met standards. Similarly for servers, it would be subjective -- based on the manager's observations on how well the server is meeting the customers' needs.

As far as "Adjusting the shift assignments so customers are only stuck with the "bad" servers when there are no "good" servers available (i.e., during off hours, when the restaurant is really busy, etc.)", aren't you in fact, punishing the customers who come during those off-hours, etc. by providing them with a server you know is "bad"? That doesn't seem like a good business practice to me.

Again, I'm not necessarily saying performance-based is the way to go vs. commission. I'm just wondering if commission is really the best compensation method for the restaurant model.
Title: Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
Post by: amylouky on June 18, 2014, 01:48:48 PM
I wouldn't work a server job if I just got a flat rate wage. There are times when a restaurant is naturally slow, and other times when it's absolutely slammed. I think the percentage of sales (with minimum hourly rate) is pretty good for the server, actually.. it rewards them with higher pay at busier times, but assures a decent minimum at slow times.

I wouldn't much like being paid the same rate for working the Sunday church crowd brunch as someone who worked, say, the Tuesday afternoon coffee drinker/readers.
Title: Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
Post by: nolechica on June 18, 2014, 07:31:51 PM
You might not but people like me would.  I can be polite and attentive, but not warm or perky.  I'd rather a lower steady wage and less stress than having to be an underpaid actress.
Title: Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
Post by: ti_ax on June 18, 2014, 07:42:21 PM
You might not but people like me would.  I can be polite and attentive, but not warm or perky.  I'd rather a lower steady wage and less stress than having to be an underpaid actress.
Management might still insist on a warm & perky demeanor no matter what the tipping policy is.
Title: Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
Post by: nolechica on June 18, 2014, 07:50:56 PM
You might not but people like me would.  I can be polite and attentive, but not warm or perky.  I'd rather a lower steady wage and less stress than having to be an underpaid actress.
Management might still insist on a warm & perky demeanor no matter what the tipping policy is.

That would be misguided though if this thread is a decent cross section.
Title: Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
Post by: Another Sarah on June 19, 2014, 07:01:42 AM
I'm reading all this with a keen interest. I come from a non-tipping culture (the Netherlands) and I love it.
Service in the food industry is, on the whole, awesome, servers are friendly, polite, knowledgeable and know when to leave the customers be. You're also not rushed: when you occupy a table in a restaurant for dinner, you're not expected to relinquish it to the next customer, it's yours for the evening. So you can linger over your coffee, just talking with your company, or reading your book even, without any (pointed) looks from the waitstaff. Also the waitstaff doesn't try to ingratiate themselves to you, in the hopes of a better tip: there's no need to grovel when they're paid a living wage (usually well above the legal minimum wage).
And if the service is really, really good? Then you can decide to tip, as generously as you like, keeping in mind that 10% is considered very generous indeed. Or you don't tip, that's fine as well: tips are appreciated but never expected.
And if the service is bad? You complain and/or vote with your feet, as you do in any other kind of business.
This is not true, the Netherlands is a tipping culture. What yopu describe is tipping culture, what the US has isn't.

You have said this three times about the US. We do have tipping culture by our definition, so I don't agree with this. The restaurant in question is in the US, so I think we should go with that. I won't mind if it changes here, though.

I do love reading about "tips"  in other countries, however, and how it works for them, so please keep the stories coming!

I think the point Marcel is making is important though - not because what people are classifying the US as a tipping culture but because they are then classifying the rest of the world as a non-tipping culture.

A lot of the arguments for keeping the US system as it is boil down to "servers will not be incentivised to perform well" and "There will be no way to reward/punish for the level of service" - because people are assuming that a none-tipping culture means absolutely no tipping.

By paying a more fair base wage and moving tipping to something more in line with other countries, the emphasis on tipping goes to reward for good service. It is very rare that I (UK) don't tip a server, I just tip them between 5-10% for standard/good service and 15% if they were exceptional. If I choose not to tip, that says something to the server because they didn't get a reward for good service, but I paid for my dinner, they worked their hours and they will go home with a living wage. If they want to earn a bit extra, they have to up their service level, and I don't have to be guilt tripped about starving someone who did a sub-par job.
(and in the UK commission jobs work the same way - base pay is low but liveable with)
Title: Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
Post by: squeakers on June 19, 2014, 10:49:38 AM
Back in the Stone Ages i worked at a pizza and ice cream parlour and we got paid minimum wage.  We seldom got tips even with the most attentive of service.  Tips were included in birthday packages but that money went straight to the business (but sometimes the parents would give cash tips.)

We were not a full service store though: you ordered at the counter but a waitress would carry your drinks/plates etc to your table.  When the pizza was done it was called out over a microphone (for a while they tried the number system and the waitress would take the food out but they went back to having the customer grabbing it).  The waitresses also would take ice cream orders, bring them out and settle the bill for those.  But mainly they/we were pretty busboys and wranglers of children (there was a game room, coloring paper and balloons to be handed out.)

It was nice knowing if I did a 3 or 6 hour shift I would be getting paid for all of it and not have to rely on how someone else felt my service was.  It also meant I could work anywhere in the shop whether answering phones, running loads of dishes through the washer or ringing up orders.  About the only thing I didn't do was make the pizzas (no way was I going to deal with the burns on my arms from the ovens) or deliver the orders (no way was I going to use my car even with mileage on top of hourly wages and tips... mainly because I suck at maps let alone remembering where streets are even in the city I grew up in.)
Title: Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
Post by: amylouky on June 19, 2014, 11:40:31 AM
You might not but people like me would.  I can be polite and attentive, but not warm or perky.  I'd rather a lower steady wage and less stress than having to be an underpaid actress.

Fair point. I guess I was thinking of flat rate as opposed to this restaurant's $10 or 20% policy, not compared to the current tip culture. I agree, you shouldn't have to be an actress to get a decent wage. But I wouldn't like being the one scheduled for the busy shifts, when those who worked less busy shifts got the same pay I did, with no extra incentive. I guess that would be a management thing though, to make sure the busy shifts were evenly spread out.
Title: Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
Post by: Allyson on June 19, 2014, 01:23:45 PM

Fair point. I guess I was thinking of flat rate as opposed to this restaurant's $10 or 20% policy, not compared to the current tip culture. I agree, you shouldn't have to be an actress to get a decent wage. But I wouldn't like being the one scheduled for the busy shifts, when those who worked less busy shifts got the same pay I did, with no extra incentive. I guess that would be a management thing though, to make sure the busy shifts were evenly spread out.

Well, there are a lot of jobs where certain shifts are way busier than others, and tipping isn't really a thing, aren't there? Also some people prefer working busy shifts because they tend to go by way faster than when it's slow...so I think yeah, that would be a management thing that nobody hates the shifts they are working.
Title: Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
Post by: lady_disdain on June 19, 2014, 02:32:55 PM
You might not but people like me would.  I can be polite and attentive, but not warm or perky.  I'd rather a lower steady wage and less stress than having to be an underpaid actress.

Fair point. I guess I was thinking of flat rate as opposed to this restaurant's $10 or 20% policy, not compared to the current tip culture. I agree, you shouldn't have to be an actress to get a decent wage. But I wouldn't like being the one scheduled for the busy shifts, when those who worked less busy shifts got the same pay I did, with no extra incentive. I guess that would be a management thing though, to make sure the busy shifts were evenly spread out.

On the other hand, on a system where the waiter depends on tips, being scheduled for the less busy shift might mean not earning enough to cover the bills.

Having peak times and down times does make scheduling difficult but, once again, it is hardly something exclusive to the restaurant business. For example, how do stores manage to keep their staff happy when they also have very busy shifts and others that aren't as busy?
Title: Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
Post by: Sophia on June 19, 2014, 08:03:58 PM
One nice thing about the tip system, is that it is OK to do your own thing when it wasn't busy.  For example, I never minded working Sundays.  They were usually slow, but I brought in my school books.  I would study in the side room in between waiting tables.  And, really, I made enough money that I didn't particularly worry about an occasional slow period.  This was back in the very late-80's to early 90's.  In a 4-hour evening shift I made $60 - $100.  Sundays I might make $30 - $50.  That was a full day but they fed me spaghetti and cheesy garlic bread and I got a lot of homework done.  Lunch was even more lucrative, but I wasn't fast enough to handle it. 

I say this because I get the impression that some people feel sorry for the abused waitstaff out there.  When, it is good, desirable job for someone that is unskilled but eager.  The only reason I stopped was that it made my RLS worse and I was having trouble sleeping. 
Title: Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
Post by: nolechica on October 05, 2014, 03:32:34 PM
A new restaurant is opening with this policy, in a bigger city. http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2014/10/02/3574990/girard-tips-wage-benefits/
Title: Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
Post by: Fleur on October 05, 2014, 04:05:42 PM
One nice thing about the tip system, is that it is OK to do your own thing when it wasn't busy.  For example, I never minded working Sundays.  They were usually slow, but I brought in my school books.  I would study in the side room in between waiting tables.  And, really, I made enough money that I didn't particularly worry about an occasional slow period.  This was back in the very late-80's to early 90's.  In a 4-hour evening shift I made $60 - $100.  Sundays I might make $30 - $50.  That was a full day but they fed me spaghetti and cheesy garlic bread and I got a lot of homework done.  Lunch was even more lucrative, but I wasn't fast enough to handle it. 

I say this because I get the impression that some people feel sorry for the abused waitstaff out there.  When, it is good, desirable job for someone that is unskilled but eager.  The only reason I stopped was that it made my RLS worse and I was having trouble sleeping.

POD. And snap! I'm in England, so tipping isn't an option, but back in my student days I worked in a little 'caff' and I was allowed to read in down periods. I sometimes did get cash tips, as well, but luckily I didn't have to rely on them for the bulk of my income. They were just a nice extra (I was lucky in that I got paid more than the minimum wage)
Title: Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
Post by: cross_patch on October 05, 2014, 05:21:46 PM
One nice thing about the tip system, is that it is OK to do your own thing when it wasn't busy.  For example, I never minded working Sundays.  They were usually slow, but I brought in my school books.  I would study in the side room in between waiting tables.  And, really, I made enough money that I didn't particularly worry about an occasional slow period.  This was back in the very late-80's to early 90's.  In a 4-hour evening shift I made $60 - $100.  Sundays I might make $30 - $50.  That was a full day but they fed me spaghetti and cheesy garlic bread and I got a lot of homework done.  Lunch was even more lucrative, but I wasn't fast enough to handle it. 

I say this because I get the impression that some people feel sorry for the abused waitstaff out there.  When, it is good, desirable job for someone that is unskilled but eager.  The only reason I stopped was that it made my RLS worse and I was having trouble sleeping.

POD. And snap! I'm in England, so tipping isn't an option, but back in my student days I worked in a little 'caff' and I was allowed to read in down periods. I sometimes did get cash tips, as well, but luckily I didn't have to rely on them for the bulk of my income. They were just a nice extra (I was lucky in that I got paid more than the minimum wage)

This is not even slightly the norm. I have never worked anywhere where I could do my homework, and I have worked heaps of hospitality jobs. If you weren't running tables or serving or clearing you were cleaning, or polishing glasses, or rolling cutlery or washing up.
Title: Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
Post by: Twik on October 06, 2014, 08:56:01 AM
$10 or 20 percent of hourly food sales - makes me wonder if waitstaff might be tempted to hurry one table along in order to seat the next family and sell them more food.
Well, technically, giving tips would have the same effect.
Title: Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
Post by: Sharnita on October 06, 2014, 09:00:16 AM
$10 or 20 percent of hourly food sales - makes me wonder if waitstaff might be tempted to hurry one table along in order to seat the next family and sell them more food.
Well, technically, giving tips would have the same effect.

People who felt rushed against their will would likely tip poorly.
Title: Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
Post by: SingActDance on October 06, 2014, 09:05:09 AM
One nice thing about the tip system, is that it is OK to do your own thing when it wasn't busy.  For example, I never minded working Sundays.  They were usually slow, but I brought in my school books.  I would study in the side room in between waiting tables.  And, really, I made enough money that I didn't particularly worry about an occasional slow period.  This was back in the very late-80's to early 90's.  In a 4-hour evening shift I made $60 - $100.  Sundays I might make $30 - $50.  That was a full day but they fed me spaghetti and cheesy garlic bread and I got a lot of homework done.  Lunch was even more lucrative, but I wasn't fast enough to handle it. 

I say this because I get the impression that some people feel sorry for the abused waitstaff out there.  When, it is good, desirable job for someone that is unskilled but eager.  The only reason I stopped was that it made my RLS worse and I was having trouble sleeping.

POD. And snap! I'm in England, so tipping isn't an option, but back in my student days I worked in a little 'caff' and I was allowed to read in down periods. I sometimes did get cash tips, as well, but luckily I didn't have to rely on them for the bulk of my income. They were just a nice extra (I was lucky in that I got paid more than the minimum wage)

This is not even slightly the norm. I have never worked anywhere where I could do my homework, and I have worked heaps of hospitality jobs. If you weren't running tables or serving or clearing you were cleaning, or polishing glasses, or rolling cutlery or washing up.

Very true. My SO worked in restaurants/catering for years. He still uses the phrase, "If you've got time to lean, you've got time to clean."
Title: Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
Post by: LisyLoo on October 06, 2014, 03:29:34 PM
I'm coming in a bit late to this topic. I like the living wage. I was a waitress for many years, had some wonderful customers. I also had customers who would treat you like their personal slave. make extra requests, run you all over the place and then leave  your table an absolute disaster. These are the people who would either not tip or leave a tract behind explaining that you are going to h#ll unless you follow their beliefs.
Title: Re: No-Tipping Policy In Restaurant
Post by: jaxsue on October 07, 2014, 12:03:53 PM
One nice thing about the tip system, is that it is OK to do your own thing when it wasn't busy.  For example, I never minded working Sundays.  They were usually slow, but I brought in my school books.  I would study in the side room in between waiting tables.  And, really, I made enough money that I didn't particularly worry about an occasional slow period.  This was back in the very late-80's to early 90's.  In a 4-hour evening shift I made $60 - $100.  Sundays I might make $30 - $50.  That was a full day but they fed me spaghetti and cheesy garlic bread and I got a lot of homework done.  Lunch was even more lucrative, but I wasn't fast enough to handle it. 

I say this because I get the impression that some people feel sorry for the abused waitstaff out there.  When, it is good, desirable job for someone that is unskilled but eager.  The only reason I stopped was that it made my RLS worse and I was having trouble sleeping.

POD. And snap! I'm in England, so tipping isn't an option, but back in my student days I worked in a little 'caff' and I was allowed to read in down periods. I sometimes did get cash tips, as well, but luckily I didn't have to rely on them for the bulk of my income. They were just a nice extra (I was lucky in that I got paid more than the minimum wage)

This is not even slightly the norm. I have never worked anywhere where I could do my homework, and I have worked heaps of hospitality jobs. If you weren't running tables or serving or clearing you were cleaning, or polishing glasses, or rolling cutlery or washing up.

Very true. My SO worked in restaurants/catering for years. He still uses the phrase, "If you've got time to lean, you've got time to clean."

Jumping on to say that I agree with the last couple of comments. I was a server in high school and college. Even on a slow night, we had work to do. Idle time was not even in our vocabulary.