Etiquette Hell

General Etiquette => Life...in general => Topic started by: kingsrings on July 29, 2010, 11:27:03 AM

Title: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: kingsrings on July 29, 2010, 11:27:03 AM

Iíve gone hiking with a group of people in the past, and this situation arose a few times. Now, it was done in fun and jest, but it got me to thinking about the etiquette implications behind it anyway.

One of the guys in the group took it upon himself to drive us all to and from the hiking spots, and he has a large vehicle that can accommodate most of us. He was perfectly fine with this arrangement, and it was always his idea to be the driver. After a long day of hiking, I am usually tired. So on the way back to our parking area from our hike, I would nod off. Every time I did this, he would jokingly give me a hard time about it, jostling me awake and telling me I wasnít allowed to sleep while he had to drive us all (not those words exactly, but similar). The others in the car concurred with him. I was kind of annoyed because I was so worn out, and could have used some dozing off time until I got back to my car and had to drive the half hour or so home. I always did my best to make sure I was healthy and well-rested before each hike, but still, sometimes you just get worn out anyway.

So, is sleeping in a car rude then? I mean, I know in some cases itís totally expected and approved of, such as driving a long distance (people in the car take turns on and off being sleeping passengers and then drivers). But is it rude or inconsiderate to sleep in the car in other situations? Such as in the situation above, where someone gets to rest while someone else drives? What if itís just you and the driver in the car Ė are you then being anti-social to them by sleeping or nodding off?

Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: high dudgeon on July 29, 2010, 11:37:22 AM
I don't think it's the vehicle that's making it rude, but the fact that you're still out in on an event with friends and wanted to nap instead of being social. I think it would be just as rude if you dozed off on his couch during a party because you had a long drive home afterward and wanted to rest up for it.

Also, I know several drivers who hate to have their passenger sleeping, because it makes the driver sleepy too, or they need that conversation and interaction to stay awake themselves. So there could be a safety element as well.

Maybe next time the group could arrange to go on a shorter hike? Or you could drive yourself separately, if you needed a quick nap first?
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: Harlow on July 29, 2010, 11:38:14 AM
It's not rude in my opion.

Myself as a driver though, when I'm driving, I can't have anyone sleeping in the car either. It makes me tired and makes me want to sleep. So I can understand why he asked you not to sleep while he was driving.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: triciadi on July 29, 2010, 11:42:18 AM
I have a friend who used to tease me about being rude and falling asleep when he was driving.  Until I told him that he should feel honoured.  I really have to trust the driver or I can't relax enough to fall asleep!

He no longer says anything if I fall asleep in his car, just asks if I had a nice nap.

I don't think it is rude at all and sometimes can't be helped.  If you are tired, the motion of the car is often enough to lull you to sleep.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: bah12 on July 29, 2010, 11:54:53 AM
I'm on the fence on this one, but leaning towards a little rude.

You were still on a social event...if this were a long roadtrip, I would expect at some point, everyone to take turns driving/sleeping, but a hike with intermittent driving, not so much.  I understand that you were tired and wanted to sleep, but I'm sure the driver was also tired.

Besides, the fact that the group was socializing and you were, in effect, ignoring them, having someone sleep in the car, especially when the driver is tired, can make them even more sleepy, so it's not always safe or ok for passenger's to sleep.

If I were you, I would have tried to stay awake and used the social interaction with the other passengers and the driver to help.

But, had I been one of the passengers or the driver, I'm not sure that I would have continuously woke you up if you were that tired.  I think that's kind of rude too.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: kingsrings on July 29, 2010, 11:55:09 AM
I didn't think about the aspect of it making someone else tired by seeing another person in the car sleeping, that makes sense. That's especially true when it's just you and the driver in the car, because it's so visible, and then they don't have someone to help keep them awake. Although in this case with his car being so big - I wonder if that could of been solved by me sitting in the back of the car where I wasn't as visible? As far as the social aspect of it though, there wasn't a whole lot of talking going on anyway in the car, as we were all bedraggled.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: Harlow on July 29, 2010, 11:58:30 AM
I didn't think about the aspect of it making someone else tired by seeing another person in the car sleeping, that makes sense. That's especially true when it's just you and the driver in the car, because it's so visible, and then they don't have someone to help keep them awake. Although in this case with his car being so big - I wonder if that could of been solved by me sitting in the back of the car where I wasn't as visible? As far as the social aspect of it though, there wasn't a whole lot of talking going on anyway in the car, as we were all bedraggled.

I drive an SUV, it's big. With the magic of my mirrors, I can see all my passengers. So even with a big car, the driver may very well be able to see you. So sitting in the back may not be the solution. The best solution would be to keep awake.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: Sharnita on July 29, 2010, 12:10:00 PM
I think that for a lot of people, the motion of the car puts them to sleep if they aren't the driver. it isnot so much a choice as something that happens to them.  SOme people have other physical reactions - like car sickness.  For me, sleeping is a dense against car sickenss. I especially have porblems going in and out of shadows when the road is tree lined.  I close my eyes to avoid illness and eventually fall asleep.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: bah12 on July 29, 2010, 12:22:47 PM
I think that for a lot of people, the motion of the car puts them to sleep if they aren't the driver. it isnot so much a choice as something that happens to them.  SOme people have other physical reactions - like car sickness.  For me, sleeping is a dense against car sickenss. I especially have porblems going in and out of shadows when the road is tree lined.  I close my eyes to avoid illness and eventually fall asleep.

This happens to me as well and I do often fall asleep in the car when I never intended to.  Health reasons being an exception, I do think that passengers should try to be considerate of the driver when/if deciding to fall asleep.

The car ride is often part of the social interaction/outing.  If I'm going shopping with a friend, our drive to and from is part of our outing.  I wouldn't be comfortable falling asleep or having her fall asleep in the car.

I do understand the point of the other drivers and passengers.  If the only reason the OP wanted to sleep was because she wanted the nap before she drove home, I think she could have taken a short nap in her own car (if the area was safe enough).  I'm sure that others would have also appreciated a nap and having her sleep in view of the driver could make the driver sleepy as well, which isn't safe.

I don't thing the OP was deliberately being rude, but I think there were some things she didn't take into consideration.  It seems that she's willing to look at those things, so I think she's good on this one!
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: DavidH on July 29, 2010, 12:30:06 PM
In general I think that on a social occasion that involves a drive, it is rude to do anything that eliminates the driver from the social activity.  Sleeping, checking email, texting etc.  If the driver is part of the group, then they should be included rather than treated as a chauffeur.  It, to me, is the same as if you went to someones house after the hike and decided to sleep on their couch rather than interact with the group. 

On an overnight road trip, or something we a prearranged rotation, it's fine. 
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: demarco on July 29, 2010, 12:52:07 PM
The responses so far are surprising to me.  I've been in a lot of carpooling situations and I've never minded if  the passengers wanted to sleep.  DH always sleeps when I drive and it never makes me sleepy. 

People sleep because they are tired.  I think jostling someone awake and telling her that she has to stay awake because he has to drive is really rude.  Why does he say he "has to" drive?  Didn't he volunteer?

Presumably this is a day long event or close to it.  A hiking trip can be a social event but does that mean  everyone is supposed to be interacting the whole time?  Is silence considered inappropriate during the walk itself?  My notion of a hiking trip is  quiet enjoyment of the natural environment not a day long chatfest.   
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: kingsrings on July 29, 2010, 01:00:26 PM
He insisted on driving every time, because he enjoyed doing nice things for others. Of course we socialized and chatted during the hike itself, but our drives home were always on the quiet side, like I said earlier, because we were all wiped out. If someone had been real chatty, it probably wouldn't of been appreciated. But I was always the only one who dozed off for some reason. Really, sometimes I was so tired from the hike I honestly couldn't help it  :-[
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: Sharnita on July 29, 2010, 01:04:25 PM
He insisted on driving every time, because he enjoyed doing nice things for others. Of course we socialized and chatted during the hike itself, but our drives home were always on the quiet side, like I said earlier, because we were all wiped out. If someone had been real chatty, it probably wouldn't of been appreciated. But I was always the only one who dozed off for some reason. Really, sometimes I was so tired from the hike I honestly couldn't help it  :-[

I think that he insisted for the same reason he was adament that you shouldn't sleep - control.  I don't think that is a bad reason for wanting to drive.  I have a friend whose neck was broken years ago in a car accident.  She now has a strong preference to drive because she feels a bit helpless as the passenger.  This suits me fine because I prefer to have soembody else drive - I can be a nervous driver.  I do thikn he probably gets something out of being the driver/in control though and the fact that he doesn't want anybody sleeping, even if they were going to be pretty quiet anyway seems a bit controlling to me.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: bah12 on July 29, 2010, 01:12:27 PM
Isn't it also probable that he insisted on driving because carpooling with a large group of people can be a coordination nightmare and his vehicle is large enough to accommodate everyone?

I wouldn't be so quick to assume that he's controlling, especially knowing nothing else about it outside of wanting to drive a group of hikers around.

If the entire group was tired and quiet, then I can see why kingsrings fell asleep and I think he was rude to wake her up.  But, because he's driving after a tiring day, it would have been polite for at least one person (preferrably whoever sat in the front passenger seat) to stay awake and talk to him...to keep him from getting overly sleepy as well.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: Sharnita on July 29, 2010, 01:16:33 PM
The fact that he insisted indicates that there were other offers/options.  The fact that in addition to insisting on that in addition to insisting that OP stay awake seems to indicate a bit of controlling behavior, IMO.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: Animala on July 29, 2010, 01:30:28 PM
Yes and no

I think it depends on the "terms" of the driving.  For instance my dad and I do all the long distance driving in the family.  He can drive for hours and hours and hours with out any problems.  For me, if it hours that I'm normally asleep or I'm getting tired I need a companion and one of my sisters will stay up with me.  I know that is what I need and I put it out there so then it would be rude of them to go to sleep on me.


He's telling you his terms.  He needs a companion for whatever reason, so do your best to stay awake or find an alternate means of transportation.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: Carnation on July 29, 2010, 01:34:15 PM
It's not like you leaned back, put your hat over your face and snoozed.  You nodded off.

I think it's rude to wake up a person unless there's an urgent need to do so, or they have asked to be woken at a certain time.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: MrsJWine on July 29, 2010, 01:39:37 PM
In a group setting, I don't think it's rude unless you're sitting shotgun.  If it's only the driver and one passenger, then yes, I think it is rude unless the driver specifically tells you that you can nap.

It's different from other social events because you can leave other places if you realize you're tired and need to rest.  If I'm at a friend's house and feel myself getting drowsy, I can go home.  Or, depending on the relationship and time I'm staying, I can ask to go lie down in another room.  You can't exactly exit the car to take a nap.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: Sharnita on July 29, 2010, 01:50:09 PM
Yes and no

I think it depends on the "terms" of the driving.  For instance my dad and I do all the long distance driving in the family.  He can drive for hours and hours and hours with out any problems.  For me, if it hours that I'm normally asleep or I'm getting tired I need a companion and one of my sisters will stay up with me.  I know that is what I need and I put it out there so then it would be rude of them to go to sleep on me.


He's telling you his terms.  He needs a companion for whatever reason, so do your best to stay awake or find an alternate means of transportation.

He had other companions in the car who were awake and he insists that they use his transportation.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: bah12 on July 29, 2010, 01:52:18 PM
The fact that he insisted indicates that there were other offers/options.  The fact that in addition to insisting on that in addition to insisting that OP stay awake seems to indicate a bit of controlling behavior, IMO.

But what does "insisted" mean exactly?  My DH often "insists" on driving, because he's not comfortable being a passenger.  He's not controlling, it's just that he prefers to drive.  No one usually protests too much and if they do, then he'll usually concede.

My guess is that he volunteered to drive, maybe some other options were mentioned and he noted that driving would be no problem for him and made a case for himself.  I doubt he forced everyone in his car or threw a tantrum to get to be the driver.  He probably said he wanted to drive and no one objected too strongly.

He may very well be controlling, but wanting to drive, by itself, is not a clear indication of that.  

If he was the one that jostled kingsrings awake, then I'm assuming she must have been in the front passenger seat where he could easily reach her.  I think he was rude to wake her up, but perhaps that seat was not the best place for the OP to sit after a day of hiking, especially if she was tired enough that she thought she's want to nap.

I don't think it's unreasonable for a driver to want passengers to stay awake, but I do think there are times when it is acceptable.  I admit, I'm still on the fence about this one....
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: jimithing on July 29, 2010, 01:54:00 PM
How long of a drive back to the parking area are we talking here?
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: Cz. Burrito on July 29, 2010, 01:55:38 PM
I don't think it's rude.  Napping on long car rides isn't a choice for me-- moving vehicles just put me to sleep.  This is especially true if I've been exerting myself or didn't get enough sleep overnight.  Most of my driving lately has been with coworkers for work, which is admittedly a bit different, but I am happy to let my passenger sleep, because that means that when I get tired and need him to drive, he will be well-rested (and these are only 2-3 hour drives, but we are usually exhausted at the end of the day).  I jostling a sleeping passenger awake just for the sake of having an awake passenger is rude. 
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: kingsrings on July 29, 2010, 02:03:18 PM
How long of a drive back to the parking area are we talking here?

They averaged one to two hours.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: Cz. Burrito on July 29, 2010, 02:05:48 PM
How long of a drive back to the parking area are we talking here?

They averaged one to two hours.

I would classify that as a long car ride, and I would definitely have been asleep in that time. 
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: LissaR1 on July 29, 2010, 02:13:20 PM
Not ideal, but not rude.

1.) The OP has been socializing with these people all day.  It's not like she's not a part of the group or socializing with them.

2.) There are others in the car.  (I would find it ruder- but forgivable- if you were the only one in the car with the driver.)

3.) Long car ride.  These things happen- especially after a day of physical exertion.

4.) Like someone said, she didn't deliberately fall asleep- she nodded off.

If it's really, really offputting for the driver, he should speak to her about it privately and not-jokingly, so it's clear that it is a problem.  But otherwise, I think it's pretty normal.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: jimithing on July 29, 2010, 02:15:20 PM
How long of a drive back to the parking area are we talking here?

They averaged one to two hours.

Given this information, I think it's probably OK. If it was 30 minutes or less, I would say rude. Like PPs said, I definitely think it would be rude to make plans with a girlfriend for lunch and shopping around town, and doze off, because it is a social time too.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: PeasNCues on July 29, 2010, 02:17:36 PM
Does the his house/his rules idea apply to his car?

For whatever reason, he wants to drive. For whatever you accept that invitation and go with him.

For whatever reason, he doesn't want people sleeping in his car while he's driving. This could be, as PPs have said, because it makes HIM tired.

But, I think that if he is driving his own car, you have voluntarily ridden in that car and you know he is uncomfortable with you sleeping in the car, you should not sleep or find another source of transportation.

:)
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: JoieGirl7 on July 29, 2010, 02:36:59 PM
I think it was rude and cruel of him to jostle you awake and give you a hard time about it.
 
He has other people he can socialize with.  He should be leaving you alone if you need to sleep in the car after hiking.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: bah12 on July 29, 2010, 03:15:30 PM
How long of a drive back to the parking area are we talking here?

They averaged one to two hours.

I think given the length of the car ride, it's more reasonable that someone would fall asleep.

I can also see where it would also be important to have at least one person awake and interacting with the driver, since it is a longer drive.

Were you in the front passenger seat?
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: blahblahblah on July 29, 2010, 03:28:09 PM
I think that for a lot of people, the motion of the car puts them to sleep if they aren't the driver. it isnot so much a choice as something that happens to them.  SOme people have other physical reactions - like car sickness.  For me, sleeping is a dense against car sickenss. I especially have porblems going in and out of shadows when the road is tree lined.  I close my eyes to avoid illness and eventually fall asleep.
ITA. For me, falling asleep in the car isn't a choice. It just happens. I have to struggle to stay awake after a mere 15 minutes. If I'm with friends, I can stay awake a bit longer because I feel more stimulated, but even that has its limits. I don't think I'm being rude, because this isn't a deliberate choice on my part. And for whatever reason, I only get sleepy when I'm a passenger.

This also happens whenever I'm on a plane. Most of the time I'm already halfway asleep by the time the plane is taxiing down the runway.

I do wonder if this is some sort of natural defense against motion sickness.

My friends and I like to joke that I am the worst road trip partner ever, which is probably true.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: kingsrings on July 29, 2010, 04:00:00 PM
How long of a drive back to the parking area are we talking here?

They averaged one to two hours.

I think given the length of the car ride, it's more reasonable that someone would fall asleep.

I can also see where it would also be important to have at least one person awake and interacting with the driver, since it is a longer drive.

Were you in the front passenger seat?

Nope, I was in one of the back seats.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: high dudgeon on July 29, 2010, 04:28:07 PM
If you were in one of the back seats and not noticeable, and it was a long ride, then I think he was being overly picky about it. But I do think that if it is at all possible for to stay awake, then you should try to, even if a nap would be convenient for you. But if it's not possible, it's not possible.

If another outing like this is being arranged and he offers to drive again, I think it would be a good idea to let him know in advance that you get wiped out by the long hikes, and you may not be able to stay awake on the ride back. Then he can decide to make it a shorter hike, or let you know that you'll need to find your own ride. For some drivers, just seeing a sleepy person can make them sleepier, so if it is a safety issue for him, I don't he would be rude to tell you he couldn't drive you, if that was in fact what his problem was.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: JoieGirl7 on July 29, 2010, 04:29:10 PM
Do you pitch in money for gas?
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: kingsrings on July 29, 2010, 04:47:49 PM
We all offered to pitch in money for gas, he refused all offers. I believe it was because he thought of this as his 'gift' to us, and accepting money wouldn't make it that way anymore.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: Piratelvr1121 on July 29, 2010, 04:54:15 PM
I don't think it's rude to fall asleep in a car if one is tired after a long day like the OP had.   I am one who is prone to falling asleep, but I try to stay awake when DH is driving, especially if the boys are sleeping too.    It makes him tired if he's the only one awake, which is understandable.

I am prone to carsickness too, though it's not as bad now as when I was a kid, and then I often did fall asleep in the car because it kept me from getting nauseous, and because Dramamine made me sleepy.  

I would get really annoyed with someone if they kept nudging me awake while I was trying to sleep, especially if I would have to drive some distance to get home after the driver dropped me off, and would be disinclined to ride with that person again.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: JoieGirl7 on July 29, 2010, 04:56:47 PM
Well, then, I don't see anything rude in sleeping on the way home.
 
He is not your "host."  I presume that on the hike if you were tired, you could take a breather without his or anyone else's permission--or even go back to the car and wait for the other people.
 
He has no right to demand that you not sleep on a more than an hour car ride home.  I think his behavior in insisting and jostling and giving you a hard time about it is rude.
 
Getting ride home is not a social part of the activity--its a hiking trip, not a hike and drive trip.  And if folks have tried to pitch in with driving or gas or whatever and he has refused, he doesn't get rewarded for his sacrifice by getting to boss the rest of you around.
 
He can request that someone in the front seat remain awake so that he has company, he can tell you not to eat or drink in his car, but that's about it.

He sounds like he is doing this for "control" reasons.   :P
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: Nox on July 29, 2010, 05:04:48 PM
If somebody nodded off in my car after an active day, or when they were jet-lagged, prone to carsickness, etc. I would (and have) understand. In general I don't like the feeling that I'm just the chauffeur, but if there's a reason then I don't resent it so much. It is perhaps worth noting that I don't insist on driving. I'd much rather be a passenger.

Jostling somebody awake seems rude to me in most circumstances. The only time I could see doing it is if the person needed to wake up for something (like arriving at a destination) and clearly weren't going to do it on their own.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: high dudgeon on July 29, 2010, 05:12:39 PM
While the driver isn't a host, I do think the ride home is part of the social event. The friend doesn't just become an impersonal bus driver or chauffer the minute they all get in the car. I'd say the social event begins as soon as you all get together and continues until you all split up at your destination. So I do think it's better to stay awake, so as to be good company to the others, even if nothing's going on at that minute. But as I said, if it's not possible, it's not possible and they should try to be understanding about it if it's not causing a problem for them.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: LadyPekoe on July 29, 2010, 05:31:36 PM
When I drive, whoever is in the passenger seat needs to stay awake to talk to me, so I don't fall asleep (although I never have).  I always tell people that before we leave for a trip.  I never sleep when I'm a passenger and I've been programmed by my father to keep conversation flowing until the car comes to a stop if the driver wants it. 

If I have nobody in the car, it's not a problem, because I listen to what I want, I talk on the phone (not illegal in any of the states I frequently drive through), I sing with my CDs, it's easy to stay awake.  When someone is sleeping, I feel like everything has to be more quiet.  And that makes me bored and sleepy.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: Rockie on July 29, 2010, 05:36:12 PM
I tend to nod off during long rides, so I'd also vote not rude. It's not even voluntary on my part - sometimes I don't even realize I'd dozed off until I wake up, if that makes sense. Though it never occurred to me that just seeing another person sleeping could make someone sleepy as well (kind of like yawns seeming to spread from one person to the next?), but he should've explained that to you if that was the case.

Although...if you were in a back seat and he was driving, wouldn't it have been harder for him to reach you? I suppose it sort of depends on the layout of the car, but it seems like it would take more effort to jostle someone in the back seat than in the front passenger seat from the driver's seat.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: whatsanenigma on July 29, 2010, 07:51:13 PM
I tend to nod off during long rides, so I'd also vote not rude. It's not even voluntary on my part - sometimes I don't even realize I'd dozed off until I wake up, if that makes sense. Though it never occurred to me that just seeing another person sleeping could make someone sleepy as well (kind of like yawns seeming to spread from one person to the next?), but he should've explained that to you if that was the case.

POD here.

If it is really a safety issue for him, that no passenger in the car even when there are multiple passengers may fall asleep, then it's really on him to announce that beforehand. And to not just insist that he will be the one to drive before even finding out if someone is prone to falling asleep.

I agree that falling asleep isn't the ideal thing to do, but I find it really hard to call it "rude" in any way. I could call it rude, maybe, if you knew somebody was picking you up early and you stayed awake late on purpose, that kind of thing. But in most situations, I find it hard to believe that someone would rather sleep and lose out on rare time with friends than stay awake and socialize. When someone has fallen asleep, anywhere, anytime, I tend to think they really couldn't help it and they'd rather be awake.

Of course, I say this as someone with narcolepsy, who has fallen asleep in some pretty weird places at some pretty weird times...when, you can bet anything you like, I would have given anything to stay awake instead.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: TootsNYC on July 29, 2010, 09:25:41 PM
I didn't think about the aspect of it making someone else tired by seeing another person in the car sleeping, that makes sense. That's especially true when it's just you and the driver in the car, because it's so visible, and then they don't have someone to help keep them awake. Although in this case with his car being so big - I wonder if that could of been solved by me sitting in the back of the car where I wasn't as visible? As far as the social aspect of it though, there wasn't a whole lot of talking going on anyway in the car, as we were all bedraggled.

It's not just that they can see you. I firmly believe (on the basis of absolutely NO scientific evidence) that sleeping people give off a sleep pheromone, and when you are around them, this pheromone, when breathed in, makes you sleepy.

The lack of ventilation in an enclosed car means an extra-intense dose of this sleep pheromone.

and of course, children give off a higher level, as do sleeping kittens and sleeping cats. So never, never, never drive at night in a car with two sleeping children.

Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: M-theory on July 29, 2010, 09:27:16 PM
It's not just that they can see you. I firmly believe (on the basis of absolutely NO scientific evidence) that sleeping people give off a sleep pheromone, and when you are around them, this pheromone, when breathed in, makes you sleepy.

The lack of ventilation in an enclosed car means an extra-intense dose of this sleep pheromone.

and of course, children give off a higher level, as do sleeping kittens and sleeping cats. So never, never, never drive at night in a car with two sleeping children.

Cats are the highest emitters. I almost went back to bed 3 times today.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: Piratelvr1121 on July 29, 2010, 09:34:09 PM
Not much invites napping like a sleeping child or a sleeping kitty.   Especially when sleeping child is cuddled up with you as they sleep.  Gets me almost every time.   
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: artk2002 on July 29, 2010, 10:22:32 PM
You went hiking and were tired from that, I assume.  I can't fault you for falling asleep.  I don't regard this as a real "social occasion" where falling asleep would be rude.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: kareng57 on July 29, 2010, 10:31:02 PM
I'm kind of on the fence here.  Sure, you were tired, but so was the driver.

If you absolutely couldn't stay awake - then okay, - but otherwise I think it would be prudent to make the effort.  As PPs have said - the driver could be feeling sleepier because of sleepy passengers.  While the drive might not really be considered a "social occasion" - it is to some extent - at least more so than if the driver had a paying passenger who simply wanted a ride.

If it's an instance of a very long-distance drive where a driver and passenger were switching-off (on a pre-arranged agreement) that would be different.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: DangerMouth on July 29, 2010, 10:39:12 PM
Not rude if everyone agrees that passengers napping is OK.

But if the driver needs passengers awake to converse with him and keep him alert, I think everyone should take a nap. Insisting on driving but not being alert enough to be safe could be fatal. And even if it's his car, it would be fair to switch off drivers every so often so that no one driver gets too tired or hypnotized by the road.

My own background colors this for me: I was in a fatal car acident in which the driver (my sister) fell alseep, went off the road, and killed herself. The rest of us, also alseep, survived with varying injuries. It's taken years even to be OK with being a passenger, and there is only one person in the world I feel safe enough with to actually nap (and not wake up screaming everytime there is a lane change or the slightest swerve).

So, in my world, this goes way beyond etiquette. And if your friend continues to insist that you stay awake because he's awake, I'd be torn between thinking you'd be a heck of a lot tireder if you had to do the whole drive there and back by yourself, but if it's really that wearing, he should allow others a chance at the wheel while the rest nap.

JMO, of course.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: Yvaine on July 30, 2010, 08:00:21 AM
It's not just that they can see you. I firmly believe (on the basis of absolutely NO scientific evidence) that sleeping people give off a sleep pheromone, and when you are around them, this pheromone, when breathed in, makes you sleepy.

The lack of ventilation in an enclosed car means an extra-intense dose of this sleep pheromone.

and of course, children give off a higher level, as do sleeping kittens and sleeping cats. So never, never, never drive at night in a car with two sleeping children.

Cats are the highest emitters. I almost went back to bed 3 times today.

The worst I've ever seen was a geriatric basset hound. One of my bosses would bring her lovely old lady dog to work, and doggie would fall asleep during department meetings, letting out this really low, rhythmic, soothing snore. Usually everyone at the meeting would start nodding off... ;)
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: Two Ravens on July 30, 2010, 08:25:54 AM
A lot of people here seem to be saying "I do it, so it must not be rude."

I agree with a PP that the ride home is still part of the social event, so I think its a bit off to treat it as "nap time."  While I would understand if there were extraordinary circumstances, I don't thinka regular hike is one of them.

But the fact is, this driver doesn't like it. It is a bit rude to say, "I know you don't like this and I am going to do it anyway."  Maybe you just shouldn't drive with him in the future.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: sparksals on July 30, 2010, 09:45:20 AM
At least he can't accuse you of being a back seat driver! Har-dee-har-harrrr! ;) 
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: ShadesOfGrey on July 30, 2010, 11:26:20 AM
Do you snore? Perhaps that's the reason he's waking you?

I do think it's a tad rude, an you should make the effort to stay awake. I think you are in no way entitled to that time to sleep, and I can see why he would be aggravated if you just got into the car and fell asleep right away (the whole bus driver thing). 

That said, if it cant be helped, it cant be helped, kwim? 
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: kingsrings on July 30, 2010, 11:33:03 AM
No, I didnít snore, because I didnít fall asleep all the way. I nodded off, dozed, whatever you want to call it. I donít think itís possible for me to fall fully asleep in a car, Iíve never been able to do that unfortunately.

The attitude of the driver (and most everyone in the car, it seemed), was that it wasnít fair or right for any of us to get to snooze while he had to drive. Sorry if I didnít make that point clear yesterday when I posted.

Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: JoieGirl7 on July 30, 2010, 12:59:48 PM
No, I didnít snore, because I didnít fall asleep all the way. I nodded off, dozed, whatever you want to call it. I donít think itís possible for me to fall fully asleep in a car, Iíve never been able to do that unfortunately.

The attitude of the driver (and most everyone in the car, it seemed), was that it wasnít fair or right for any of us to get to snooze while he had to drive. Sorry if I didnít make that point clear yesterday when I posted.



He sounds like a control freak!
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: Redsoil on July 31, 2010, 06:13:59 AM
I fall asleep if I'm not driving - it's something I'm unable to control, unless actively involved in talking. 

Given that you'd been engaged in a strenuous activity, and the group was quiet after the day out, I'm not surprised you fell asleep.  Some gentle ribbing is fine, but to badger you about it, to the point of making you feel guilty is not.  I'd call that rude, personally.  Especially if you were so tired that you ended up falling asleep at the wheel when you drove the last half-hour home in your own vehicle!  That would be a very nasty outcome that they may not have thought of.  Sometimes a quick recharge sleep of 10 minutes or so is invaluable. 

As an aside:  I often drive long distances, living in a rural area.  I have been known to pull over during a long trip, (somewhere safe, obviously) and lock the doors to have a sleep for 10-15 minutes.  Beats the other option of falling asleep while trying to drive, and causing an accident.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: JacklynHyde on July 31, 2010, 10:33:42 AM
I had a former boyfriend who would yell at me if I started to nod off in the car.  If he had to stay awake, so did anyone else in the car.  That was a decade ago and I still can't sleep in the passenger seat, even with Rockhubby.  OTOH, Rockhubby has no problem falling dead asleep in the passenger seat and snoring at an impressive volume.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: Danismom on July 31, 2010, 07:06:23 PM
I think that since the driver made it clear he didn't appreciate you sleeping in his car, then you should stay awake.  If that means asking him to stop so you can grab some caffeine (provided you don't object to it) then that's fine -- it means you are doing everything you can to accommodate his request.   Apparently, the "culture" of this group says you can't sleep while someone is driving you on a trip like this as  you said the rest of the group agreed with the driver that you shouldn't be sleeping.  That says a lot in situations like this one.

Next time, find a way to stay awake.  It may not be rude to sleep in the car at other times, but with this driver/group it is.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: KimberlyRose on July 31, 2010, 07:25:53 PM
The fact that he insisted indicates that there were other offers/options.  The fact that in addition to insisting on that in addition to insisting that OP stay awake seems to indicate a bit of controlling behavior, IMO.

I agree.  I think if I were in this situation, I'd end up having to drive myself.  I have a hard time staying awake in the car when I'm the passenger, but when I'm driving it's not a problem.  If I had to struggle to stay awake because the driver was SS-ish enough to insist everyone stay awake, after he insisted on being the driver, I'd be pretty ticked off.

ETA: I disagree with the statements that the OP should stay awake because it's still part of the outing.  Just... no.  No one's talking or socializing, they're sitting there being tired.  The driver isn't even asking her to stay awake for the sake of using conversation to keep alert. 
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: BettyDraper on July 31, 2010, 07:45:50 PM
I love to drive long distances and wouldn't mind in the slightest if one or more -- or even all -- passengers fell asleep at the end of a day of hiking.  It does seem control-freakish to force a sleepy person to stay awake.  What's to be gained?  Someone's reluctant or begrudging or dozy conversation?  The main activity -- hiking -- was over and I'd no more demand general conversation on the way home than I'd demand a sing-along on the 6 p.m. D.C.-New York shuttle.

I'd also not offer to drive a group if I didn't think I could stay awake, come what may.  It seems dangerous to drive if one is really so reliant on conversation/attention from passengers to keep one from nodding off.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: noexitwounds on August 01, 2010, 01:20:49 AM
The fact that he insisted indicates that there were other offers/options.  The fact that in addition to insisting on that in addition to insisting that OP stay awake seems to indicate a bit of controlling behavior, IMO.

I agree.  I think if I were in this situation, I'd end up having to drive myself.  I have a hard time staying awake in the car when I'm the passenger, but when I'm driving it's not a problem.  If I had to struggle to stay awake because the driver was SS-ish enough to insist everyone stay awake, after he insisted on being the driver, I'd be pretty ticked off.

See, that's the thing though -- the OP CHOSE not to drive in this situation multiple times. The first car ride? The OP couldn't know either that s/he wasn't going to doze off or that the driver would have a problem with it. The following "few" other times this happened? S/he knew. I think it's totally rude to know the driver can't handle passengers dozing off on him/her, accept a ride from this driver, and then not do everything one can to stay awake. This is especially true in this situation where the OP admits that s/he can't even fully sleep in a car, let alone fall asleep involuntarily.

If this was a one-time occurrence it'd be a different situation altogether but the OP knew the lay of the land and chose to ignore it.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: JoieGirl7 on August 01, 2010, 02:06:16 AM
The fact that he insisted indicates that there were other offers/options.  The fact that in addition to insisting on that in addition to insisting that OP stay awake seems to indicate a bit of controlling behavior, IMO.

I agree.  I think if I were in this situation, I'd end up having to drive myself.  I have a hard time staying awake in the car when I'm the passenger, but when I'm driving it's not a problem.  If I had to struggle to stay awake because the driver was SS-ish enough to insist everyone stay awake, after he insisted on being the driver, I'd be pretty ticked off.

See, that's the thing though -- the OP CHOSE not to drive in this situation multiple times. The first car ride? The OP couldn't know either that s/he wasn't going to doze off or that the driver would have a problem with it. The following "few" other times this happened? S/he knew. I think it's totally rude to know the driver can't handle passengers dozing off on him/her, accept a ride from this driver, and then not do everything one can to stay awake. This is especially true in this situation where the OP admits that s/he can't even fully sleep in a car, let alone fall asleep involuntarily.

If this was a one-time occurrence it'd be a different situation altogether but the OP knew the lay of the land and chose to ignore it.

I think this is the crux of the situation.  First of all, we don't know that he "can't handle it" just that he demands that she not sleep.

Where does he get off insisting that others drive?  He knows the lay of the land too, so to speak.  He knows that the OP falls asleep in the backseat of the car.  Why doesn't he allow someone else to drive so that sometimes she can sleep, other times she can drive.
 
It's not a hard and fast rule that you can't sleep in someone's car while they are driving unless you are the only other passenger and they need someone to help them stay asleep.
 
It should also be noted that the OP is not demanding anything of the driver--like that he not talk too loud or listen to music.
 
What's happening is that after a day's hike, she falls asleep and he jostles her awake:

"he would jokingly give me a hard time about it, jostling me awake and telling me I wasnít allowed to sleep while he had to drive us all"

But, he doesn't have to drive them all.  He insists on driving them all.
 
And "allowed?"  She's not "allowed" to fall asleep?
 
I would go beyond saying its rude to jostle someone awake just because you want them to be awake and say that its kind of heartless.
 
Who among you would really, number one, insist that you drive the group every time.  And number two, if you have one friend out of 5 who falls asleep on the way home, would you really jostle them awake every time and demand that they interact with you?
 
I don't even see that he is asking that she interact--he's just claiming that its unfair that he has to drive and to make it more fair that she has to stay awake.
 
When really, what would make it more fair would be sharing the driving responsibilities and leave people alone.  And if you need someone to remain awake, communicate that.
 
This guy is just all about control not etiquette!

Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: Emmy on August 01, 2010, 08:52:49 AM
I think falling asleep in the car depends on the situation.  If the situation was the driver was the only one with the large enough vehicle to accommodate everybody or he offered because nobody else was keen on driving, I think it would be proper for the other passengers to accommodate his wishes in terms of making an effort to stay awake (although my personal opinion is that it is odd to expect everyone to stay awake for the sake of being awake).  However, it is rude to jostle somebody awake constantly when they inadvertently nod off.  If the driver feels tired for any reason, I think he has the right to pull over and request somebody else driver or to take a cat nap himself before continuing.   

I am a person who tends to nod off when I am tired.  My body just shuts down when I am tired and I often fall asleep at times I do not wish so I can sympathize with the OP for nodding off after a long day with a strenuous activity and a long, silent car ride home.  I think the OP should have a talk with the driver and tell him that she is not going to sleep on purpose, but is simply exhausted after the long day and can't keep awake.  Maybe he will be more sympathetic if he realizes that she can't help it or at least willing to help her stay awake like agreeing to stop for a coffee after the hike like another poster suggested.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: Giggity on August 01, 2010, 08:56:32 AM
I do totally see why some consider it rude.

Me, I don't find it rude.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: Kiara on August 01, 2010, 09:06:31 AM
Who among you would really, number one, insist that you drive the group every time.  And number two, if you have one friend out of 5 who falls asleep on the way home, would you really jostle them awake every time and demand that they interact with you?
 
I don't even see that he is asking that she interact--he's just claiming that its unfair that he has to drive and to make it more fair that she has to stay awake.

Exactly.  We used to take a tubing trip in college for a student group.  We'd take a 15 passenger van, and since it was owned by the group, the driver usually was one of about 5 people.  On the way back, everyone was exhausted.  The only person "required" to stay awake?  The one in the front passenger seat, to talk to the driver.  Aside from that, we didn't care if you slept the whole 2 hours back. 

That's how I view this...if one person stays awake to keep the driver company, then it's not rude for everyone else to fall asleep.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: DangerMouth on August 01, 2010, 09:32:17 AM
Who among you would really, number one, insist that you drive the group every time.  And number two, if you have one friend out of 5 who falls asleep on the way home, would you really jostle them awake every time and demand that they interact with you?
 
I don't even see that he is asking that she interact--he's just claiming that its unfair that he has to drive and to make it more fair that she has to stay awake.

Exactly.  We used to take a tubing trip in college for a student group.  We'd take a 15 passenger van, and since it was owned by the group, the driver usually was one of about 5 people.  On the way back, everyone was exhausted.  The only person "required" to stay awake?  The one in the front passenger seat, to talk to the driver.  Aside from that, we didn't care if you slept the whole 2 hours back. 

That's how I view this...if one person stays awake to keep the driver company, then it's not rude for everyone else to fall asleep.

That's a great system. Alternately, (and I just made a road trip from FL to CT and back), my own 'rule' is if I'm driving, I get to do what I want with the music/radio. If that means listening to 'Thrak' cranked up to 11, or the home canning call-in show, well, thems the brokes.  It doesn't bother me if others sleep, but if someone has a problem with the music, well, that's what earplugs are for.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: Kiara on August 01, 2010, 09:42:11 AM
DangerMouth -

That works too!  I was usually the one in the passenger seat, because I can't fall asleep in cars.  Worked for everybody.  I volunteered, everyone else got to sleep, driver stayed awake...everyone wins!
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: Granny Takes a Trip on August 01, 2010, 09:52:08 AM
No, I didnít snore, because I didnít fall asleep all the way. I nodded off, dozed, whatever you want to call it. I donít think itís possible for me to fall fully asleep in a car, Iíve never been able to do that unfortunately.

The attitude of the driver (and most everyone in the car, it seemed), was that it wasnít fair or right for any of us to get to snooze while he had to drive. Sorry if I didnít make that point clear yesterday when I posted.



He sounds like a control freak!

POD. I think this man sounds very rude, to be honest. KR, I don't think you're rude at all. This has nothing to do with sleep patterns, ect. He's just being bossy.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: KenveeB on August 01, 2010, 12:25:59 PM
Am I the only one trying to figure out how the driver could jostle OP awake when she said she was in the back?  I'm trying to picture the contortionist driver. :)

I tend to not think of an hour drive as a "long" one, and I really don't see why it's so hard to stay awake for a drive that length.  If someone was just nodding off occasionally during a drive, I wouldn't think anything of it, but it sounds as if every single time they're driving, OP is asleep.  That would annoy me if I was one of the other people in the car.  It just seems like "gee, thanks, glad you find us so interesting." 

Anyway, given that everyone else in the car agreed with the driver, I don't think that he's being rude or controlling.  It seems to be the group culture that the drive back is part of the outing and not nap time.  I think that in that kind of situation, it's majority rules.  If the rest of the group was fine with napping, then it would be rude for one person to insist on everyone to stay awake.  But if the rest of the group thinks you should all stay awake, then it's rude for one person to insist on sleeping.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: whatsanenigma on August 02, 2010, 10:16:53 AM
  But if the rest of the group thinks you should all stay awake, then it's rude for one person to insist on sleeping.

As I have said before, I find it hard to imagine someone "insisting on sleeping". Whenever I see someone sleeping at an odd time or in an odd place, I assume they really have no choice. My opinion of course is clouded by the fact that I have narcolepsy and before it was properly diagnosed and treated, I was very often "rude" and spoken to as if it was a deliberate thing to insult people, or that I didn't know what proper social behavior was...when in truth, I fought it as hard as I could and truly didn't know what was wrong. It wasn't my choice to sleep-I would rather have been awake. Even in situations where it would have been perfectly polite to fall asleep (trading drivers on a long car trip, for example) I would rather have stayed awake and socialized. So I assume that sleeping people have no choice, and not spending time in a way of their choosing, not being rude, not personally insulting me. And I don't assume that they all have rare disorders causing it-it's entirely possible, in my mind, to be otherwise physically healthy and just prone to nodding off in a car, for example, or to get very tired after unusual exertion and fall asleep, whatever.

So, there are some things I would ask about this type of situation-because ordinarily, I believe in "your car, your rules". What is the polite way to say "I will not ride with you because I don't want to follow your rules"? Is it different if the situation actually is "I will not ride with you because a physical disability prevents me from following your rules"? Or even "...because I think your rules are unreasonable"?

And who does the onus of bringing this up fall upon? Is it the responsibility of every person who has ever accidentally fallen asleep in a car to speak up when someone offers a ride, and say "I'm sorry, I tend to fall asleep in cars, is that okay?" or is it on the owner of the vehicle, if sleeping people in the car bothers him or her at all, to say "I can drive some people but I really can't have anyone sleeping in my car, it's a safety issue"?

I'm not trying to be snarky here or dismiss anyone's opinions or experience as invalid. But because this is an etiquette board, I think those are questions we could try to address. Because people aren't going to stop falling asleep in cars any time soon.  :)
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: KenveeB on August 02, 2010, 12:55:27 PM
Yes, I think that it's incumbent on the person with the disorder to speak up.  Sleeping isn't an involuntary response to sitting in a car for most people, so if you're the one who's out of the ordinary of what people would expect then it's up to you to speak up.  And if it's genuinely a disorder, then I think most people would be a lot more understanding than someone just falling asleep all the time.  One is a medical issue, the other conveys that the group isn't interesting enough to keep you awake.  Totally different issues.

On a long car trip, I'd expect people to work out if sleeping was okay or not in advance.  I honestly can say it would never occur to me to have that discussion before an hour car drive.  But since this has happened several times to the OP and she's obviously aware of how the rest of the group feels, then it's up to her to come up with an alternative if the rest of the group's preference isn't okay with her.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: whatsanenigma on August 02, 2010, 01:12:40 PM
Yes, I think that it's incumbent on the person with the disorder to speak up.  Sleeping isn't an involuntary response to sitting in a car for most people, so if you're the one who's out of the ordinary of what people would expect then it's up to you to speak up.  And if it's genuinely a disorder, then I think most people would be a lot more understanding than someone just falling asleep all the time.  One is a medical issue, the other conveys that the group isn't interesting enough to keep you awake.  Totally different issues.

Well, what I am questioning here, really, is "how out of the ordinary is it"? Sure, I personally fall asleep very easily even while medicated and I have a reason (though anyone I am close enough to to be driving that far with, probably already knows this) but what about in the less extreme areas of this? I am sure there are many people, especially when pushed, as by a strenuous trip as described in the OP, fall asleep involuntarily. How often does this have to have happened to a person before it becomes their responsibility to say that they fall asleep in cars and to ask if it is okay, when offered a ride?

Whether it is rude or not, it seems to be very very common. Is it more common, or less common (the tendency to fall asleep in a car, even if it's not extreme) than the tendency to be annoyed, as a driver, by this, or even to be in a position where sleeping passengers is a safety issue? From my perspective I assumed the sleeping is more common, but I could be wrong, but I ask because you are correct, the one doing the "out of the ordinary" thing, rude or not, is the one who should speak up.

And it gets back to one of my questions: How do you politely decline the offer of a ride if you can't or won't abide by the rules of the owner of the car? It's very generous of someone to offer to drive the whole way and not ask for money for gas. How do you say "thanks but no thanks" without being insulting? And if it's a disorder and not something you can control, then if sleeping passengers causes a safety hazard to the driver, it doesn't matter if you can control it or not-it's still a safety issue. That would be another tricky area of politeness, I think.
 
Quote
But since this has happened several times to the OP and she's obviously aware of how the rest of the group feels, then it's up to her to come up with an alternative if the rest of the group's preference isn't okay with her.

If this really is the case, then again, what is the best way to turn down what otherwise seems like a generous offer? And if she isn't absolutely sure that she will fall asleep, is it worth the social consequences of looking rude by turning down that generous offer, or even of losing what time with her friends she would be sure to enjoy?

There are polite and impolite ways of handling anything, of course, and I think it would be good to discuss how to handle this politely.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: bah12 on August 02, 2010, 01:22:58 PM
Am I the only one trying to figure out how the driver could jostle OP awake when she said she was in the back?  I'm trying to picture the contortionist driver. :)


Me too.  When the OP said that the driver jostled her awake, I pictured her in the front seat.  That actually greatly influenced my response.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: Hushabye on August 02, 2010, 01:28:26 PM
Am I the only one trying to figure out how the driver could jostle OP awake when she said she was in the back?  I'm trying to picture the contortionist driver. :)


Me too.  When the OP said that the driver jostled her awake, I pictured her in the front seat.  That actually greatly influenced my response.

Maybe it's because my friends and I pester each other all the time, but I can easily see the driver reaching back to the back seat, either between his seat and the door or between the driver and passenger doors, to jostle the legs of whoever is sitting back there.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: bah12 on August 02, 2010, 02:02:24 PM
Am I the only one trying to figure out how the driver could jostle OP awake when she said she was in the back?  I'm trying to picture the contortionist driver. :)


Me too.  When the OP said that the driver jostled her awake, I pictured her in the front seat.  That actually greatly influenced my response.

Maybe it's because my friends and I pester each other all the time, but I can easily see the driver reaching back to the back seat, either between his seat and the door or between the driver and passenger doors, to jostle the legs of whoever is sitting back there.

I can picture it in a smaller car, but not so much in a larger vehicle like the OP replied.  Maybe this is because I'm hopelessly short.  Either way, obviously it's possible, because it happened.

I was just saying that, to me, position in the car matters and my original response was based on my assumptions that she was sitting in the front.  If she were in the front seat, I would be more inclined to say she needed to stay awake...in the back, not as much.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: evely28 on August 02, 2010, 02:19:52 PM
I don't think it matters what we think, what matters is the driver who is giving you a ride doesn't like you sleeping in his vehicle and the other passengers agree with him. That's what you have to work with. I think you should either try to stay awake or don't accept rides anymore. Though it hasn't bothered me when I'm driving and everyone else konks out, I wonder if there is some truth to it having a "more drowsy than usual" effect on the driver. I am someone that konks out very easily as a passenger and depending on the setting, I apologize when I wake up.  Maybe that would make a difference for you. It's kind of like belching loudly without saying "excuse me" and offering up that it's natural or it couldn't be helped. One way is rude and the apology way makes it not rude.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: kingsrings on August 02, 2010, 02:52:39 PM
To clear up the mystery of how he jostled me awake Ė either verbally, or by gently tapping the brakes if the roadway was clear. 
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: whatsanenigma on August 02, 2010, 03:58:16 PM
I don't think it matters what we think, what matters is the driver who is giving you a ride doesn't like you sleeping in his vehicle and the other passengers agree with him. That's what you have to work with. I think you should either try to stay awake or don't accept rides anymore.

Fair enough, but how?

It sounds like in the OP there is great pressure from this person to do all the driving and he will be very upset if someone interferes with this by taking his or her own way.

No, you're still not obligated to ride with him, no matter how much of a fit he will throw. His fit is his problem in that case. But what is a good way of turning down what is otherwise a generous offer, over something that not everyone sees as a hill to die on? The impression could be given that the OP is rejecting a ride just for no good reason and it could be taken personally. Again, not the OP's problem, objectively speaking, but there have got to be better and worse ways to do this.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: ShadesOfGrey on August 02, 2010, 04:12:44 PM
The op could enlist someone to speak with her during the ride home, she could drive on her own (or ask someone to drive with her),  she could nap before/drink a soda/energy drink during or after the hike, sit in a seat where she could roll down a window, keep the AC on her, etc. 
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: high dudgeon on August 02, 2010, 04:16:01 PM
I think if she wanted to drive herself, all she'd have to do is say, "Friend, I'm not sure riding with you to the hike is working well for you and me. I seem to be making you uncomfortable when I fall asleep, and I may not be able to completely avoid it. Maybe it would be better for me to drive myself and then you wouldn't have to worry about whether I was asleep or awake?" And he could either say, "I'm sorry for giving you a hard time about that, if you ride with me, I won't wake you up again" or "You know, I think that might be for the best. So let's meet up at Rock Ridge at 9am and don't forget your hiking shoes!" Even if he does say "Oh, ride with me, you just have to stay awake this time" you can reply with, "I'm sorry, but I don't think that's going to work. If you're not going to be okay with the possibility of me dozing off, it's better if I drive myself."

It's up to the driving friend to behave politely too, and if he's going to get upset when offered a polite, considerate choice, that's his failing not the OP's. She only gets to decide her actions, she cannot control his response to them or his feelings about them. But I don't see any option that allows her to sleep in the car, against the wishes of her friends and the driver, whatever their reasons are. If the groups sees the time in transit as part of the outing, and the offer of the ride is conditional on the riders staying awake, it's up to the OP to either find a way to stay awake, or arrange her own travel separately.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: DragonKitty on August 02, 2010, 04:20:34 PM
POD to this.  If he can't abide seeing you sleep in the car, then you can remove the source of annoyance, namely yourself.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: DangerMouth on August 02, 2010, 04:53:05 PM
Well, the OP would certainly have to stay awake if she were to drive herself, so it would seem the lesser of the evils to not nap while her friend drives. Being alert enough to make an occaisional remark, and being alert enough to drive are two different things, you know?

What's boggling me is all this over a 1-2 hour trip. And also it sounds just the tiniest bit SS-y to say 'well I'm tired after my long day hiking' when every other person she's with, including the driver, has just had the same long day. Maybe the answer is to find a different group to hike with, either one that shares her need to nap, so they can take turns, or hike closer to home, so this isn't an issue.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: high dudgeon on August 02, 2010, 05:14:57 PM
True, but if she were driving herself, she could choose to leave before she got too tired to drive home, or she could take a short nap in her own car or somewhere else nearby. She'd have more options available to her, even if they might not be the easiest or most convenient for her. If she's got to nap, then she's got to nap, but it doesn't have to be in a car full of people with a driver who is apparently uncomfortable with it. Maybe a different hiking group, or a different activity with the group of friends is the best way to go.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: BettyDraper on August 02, 2010, 05:27:51 PM
What if the driver wanted to control what people ate?  "No granola bar for you, I don't care what the state of your blood sugar is, no eating in this vehicle and no stopping till we're home!"

Or when they used the restroom.  "I can hold it all the way home and so will you, because it's my car, my rules!"  

I find it equally control-freaky to even care whether or not a passenger dozes off.  Dog in the manger, much?
  
Further, what sort of insecure group-think juvenile needs everyone to be experiencing the exact same thing at all moments?  How petty-minded do you have to be to want to force a person to endure something uncomfortable -- a sleepless ride, in the OP's case, where she has to employ various artificial tactics to stay awake.  If he can't stay alert enough without the stimulation of other passengers he has no business being behind a wheel, let alone driving a carload of other people. And if his mind is so vacant that an hour or two of contemplation as he drives while others sleep is such a deprivation -- well, what's the attraction in the first place?  Sounds like a nasty piece of work all the way around.

Personally I'd learn my lesson and never again accept a ride from this boor.  As to the questions about how to politely decline the ride, that's easy.  The next time a hike is planned and Boor says "Everyone report to the IKEA parking lot at 7 a.m. sharp" the OP merely has to reply "And I'll meet you all up on the mountain at 9 a.m.; see you there!"  She need not answer further questions about why she's choosing to ride alone, just "That works better for me.  And say, have you seen the weather forecast yet?"
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: jimithing on August 02, 2010, 05:35:27 PM
What if the driver wanted to control what people ate?  "No granola bar for you, I don't care what the state of your blood sugar is, no eating in this vehicle and no stopping till we're home!"


I actually know many people who don't allow food to be eaten in their car. Now, I'm sure if there was an actual medical emergency, they would make an exception. And while I agree it may be controlling, that's their right to make that rule, and I don't think it's really all that unreasonable.

I agree with the PPs that if the OP knows that this is an issue, it's been brought up several times, it's best to just not go with him. It doesn't seem worth the hassle to me.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: KenveeB on August 02, 2010, 06:38:45 PM
It sounds like in the OP there is great pressure from this person to do all the driving and he will be very upset if someone interferes with this by taking his or her own way.

Where does that come from?  The OP says:
Quote
One of the guys in the group took it upon himself to drive us all to and from the hiking spots, and he has a large vehicle that can accommodate most of us. He was perfectly fine with this arrangement, and it was always his idea to be the driver.

"He was perfectly fine with this arrangement" and "it was his idea" doesn't equate remotely to "great pressure" and "very upset" to me.  It sounds like he just has the best car for it and doesn't mind, so he offers.  OP has never said that someone else so much as offered once to drive and he declined, just that he's "fine" with it.


Further, what sort of insecure group-think juvenile needs everyone to be experiencing the exact same thing at all moments?  How petty-minded do you have to be to want to force a person to endure something uncomfortable -- a sleepless ride, in the OP's case, where she has to employ various artificial tactics to stay awake.  If he can't stay alert enough without the stimulation of other passengers he has no business being behind a wheel, let alone driving a carload of other people. And if his mind is so vacant that an hour or two of contemplation as he drives while others sleep is such a deprivation -- well, what's the attraction in the first place?  Sounds like a nasty piece of work all the way around.

Your entire post was a bit harsh, especially considering that many people in this thread have said they'd do the same thing and given reasons for it.  It's not a question of "everyone needs to do the same thing at the same moment" so much as some people may have trouble staying awake when others fall asleep, or people feel awkward or even unimportant if they're trying to socialize (even if it's low-key, end-of-activity socializing) and one person is constantly falling asleep.  How would you feel if you had people over to your house and one person kept falling asleep in the middle of the living room?  Not once, but many, many times?  It's perfectly fine to be okay with people sleeping in the car, but also fine not to be.  The group feels one way, the OP feels the other.  It's therefore the OP's job to find another solution, whether it's staying awake in the car or finding another means of transportation. 

I'm still trying to figure out how the driver alone is a controlling boor when the entire group agreed with him that it was inappropriate to be falling asleep during the outing?
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: BettyDraper on August 02, 2010, 06:56:27 PM
Then they all are controlling boors.  Whose need for attention and group-think need to "feel important" apparently is so great they begrudge one of their members a nap that quite frankly doesn't deprive them of anything.  Are there really people out there who would prefer that a companion force herself to stay awake at their bidding?  Some friends. 

I do agree that the OP's best course of action is to find a more simpatico circle. And again, any driver who can't stay awake without external stimulation should pull over and hand someone else the keys. 
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: Sharnita on August 02, 2010, 07:13:18 PM
To clear up the mystery of how he jostled me awake Ė either verbally, or by gently tapping the brakes if the roadway was clear. 

If he did the break thing while I was in the car his reward might be my getting sick all over the interior of his vehicle.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: TinyVulgarUnicorn on August 02, 2010, 07:25:08 PM
Then they all are controlling boors.  Whose need for attention and group-think need to "feel important" apparently is so great they begrudge one of their members a nap that quite frankly doesn't deprive them of anything.  Are there really people out there who would prefer that a companion force herself to stay awake at their bidding?  Some friends. 

I do agree that the OP's best course of action is to find a more simpatico circle. And again, any driver who can't stay awake without external stimulation should pull over and hand someone else the keys. 

I think calling the whole group "controlling boors" is a bit harsh just because you don't agree with their opinions.  There have been many disagreements on this thread alone and many people are not okay with someone falling asleep in their cars where as some people are...does that make those who aren't okay with it controlling boors?  I think not, they just have a different opinion than you.  I myself might be okay with someone falling asleep in a car, but I can understand how others might not be okay with that because they feel that it changes the dynamic of the drive.  Honestly, I feel that if kingsrings has been told by the group that they're not okay with it than she should comply with the group or drive herself after the hike. 

Kingsrings, if you plan on driving with these people again might I suggest you wear rubber bands around your wrist and snapping them when you start to get drowsy?  I used to do this in high school during math class as a way to stay awake.  You might also try opening a window, loud music, engaging actively in other conversations, sitting up straight in your seat or partaking of caffeine before you leave as a way to help you stay awake.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: Suze on August 02, 2010, 07:30:14 PM
To clear up the mystery of how he jostled me awake – either verbally, or by gently tapping the brakes if the roadway was clear. 

If he did the break thing while I was in the car his reward might be my getting sick all over the interior of his vehicle.

me too - and that he would NOT like soo much more than falling asleep
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: BettyDraper on August 02, 2010, 07:47:04 PM
Kingsrings, if you plan on driving with these people again might I suggest you wear rubber bands around your wrist and snapping them when you start to get drowsy?  I used to do this in high school during math class as a way to stay awake.  You might also try opening a window, loud music, engaging actively in other conversations, sitting up straight in your seat or partaking of caffeine before you leave as a way to help you stay awake.

It's not their opinion, it's their outward manifestation of it I don't agree with.  If Aunt Martha dozes off in her chair after Thanksgiving dinner, when others are socializing, does everyone stab her with a pumpkin-pie fork and say "Aunt M, you are so rude not to pay attention to us! The event is not over yet!"  If not, how does the car ride after a day of hiking differ?  And again, what other bodily functions does the owner of the vehicle control? 

Is that really what a caring friend would ask?  Snap yourself with pain, chug caffeine and otherwise stimulate yourself just so that you can pay attention to meeee on a one- or two-hour drive home?  Or, I'll hit the brakes to jolt you awake (a reckless, petty-minded and juvenile move by a driver if ever there was one) if you aren't providing the demanded audience for meeee. 

In my circles, if a person were dozing off, their seatmate would probably say "Here, roll up my jacket and use it as a pillow; want me to ask Boor to turn the radio down?"  Not "inflict pain on yourself so that you can provide an audience for our antics." 

OP, what are you going to do next time a hike is planned? 
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: PeasNCues on August 02, 2010, 07:50:09 PM
BettyDraper, what about those who say that they can't have people sleeping in the car because it makes them sleepy? Are they "boors" with control issues as well?
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: jimithing on August 02, 2010, 07:50:33 PM
I do think that there is a cultural etiquette norm. And this particular group has decided, that for their culture, it is inconsiderate/rude to fall asleep during this kind of ride. Many groups wouldn't care. This particular group does, and I do think that there is something to be said for respecting that, even if I think it's ridiculous or silly.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: KenveeB on August 02, 2010, 07:53:01 PM
It's not their opinion, it's their outward manifestation of it I don't agree with.  If Aunt Martha dozes off in her chair after Thanksgiving dinner, when others are socializing, does everyone stab her with a pumpkin-pie fork and say "Aunt M, you are so rude not to pay attention to us! The event is not over yet!"  If not, how does the car ride after a day of hiking differ?  And again, what other bodily functions does the owner of the vehicle control? 

Is that really what a caring friend would ask?  Snap yourself with pain, chug caffeine and otherwise stimulate yourself just so that you can pay attention to meeee on a one- or two-hour drive home?  Or, I'll hit the brakes to jolt you awake (a reckless, petty-minded and juvenile move by a driver if ever there was one) if you aren't providing the demanded audience for meeee. 

In my circles, if a person were dozing off, their seatmate would probably say "Here, roll up my jacket and use it as a pillow; want me to ask Boor to turn the radio down?"  Not "inflict pain on yourself so that you can provide an audience for our antics." 

OP, what are you going to do next time a hike is planned? 

So now you want to control everyone else by not allowing them to listen to the radio because you want to sleep?  You're talking about being just as controlling, it's just on a different subject.  I wouldn't stab Aunt Martha with a fork, but I might nudge her if I noticed her starting to fall asleep -- if the group dynamic was for everyone to stay awake and chat after eating.  If the group dynamic was (like at my family's) to watch football and nap after dinner, I'd let her be.  It all depends on the group that you're in.  If you don't like the group dynamics, then your solution is to leave the group, not to try to control everyone else to do things the way you personally want and not to announce that they're all controlling boors.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: BettyDraper on August 02, 2010, 07:58:31 PM
BettyDraper, what about those who say that they can't have people sleeping in the car because it makes them sleepy? Are they "boors" with control issues as well?

As I've said, people who can't safely complete a trip under ordinary conditions (and it is very, very ordinary for passengers to fall asleep in any mode of transport) should not be taking on the responsibility in the first place.  I would not ride with someone who was that dependent on external stimuli even if I had no intention of napping. 
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: Sharnita on August 02, 2010, 08:04:54 PM
BettyDraper, what about those who say that they can't have people sleeping in the car because it makes them sleepy? Are they "boors" with control issues as well?

As I've said, people who can't safely complete a trip under ordinary conditions (and it is very, very ordinary for passengers to fall asleep in any mode of transport) should not be taking on the responsibility in the first place.  I would not ride with someone who was that dependent on external stimuli even if I had no intention of napping. 

Betty, I agree.  I think they are boors if they insist on driving when even one person sleeping threatens their ability to be an alert driver.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: BettyDraper on August 02, 2010, 08:07:15 PM
It's not their opinion, it's their outward manifestation of it I don't agree with.  If Aunt Martha dozes off in her chair after Thanksgiving dinner, when others are socializing, does everyone stab her with a pumpkin-pie fork and say "Aunt M, you are so rude not to pay attention to us! The event is not over yet!"  If not, how does the car ride after a day of hiking differ?  And again, what other bodily functions does the owner of the vehicle control? 

Is that really what a caring friend would ask?  Snap yourself with pain, chug caffeine and otherwise stimulate yourself just so that you can pay attention to meeee on a one- or two-hour drive home?  Or, I'll hit the brakes to jolt you awake (a reckless, petty-minded and juvenile move by a driver if ever there was one) if you aren't providing the demanded audience for meeee. 

In my circles, if a person were dozing off, their seatmate would probably say "Here, roll up my jacket and use it as a pillow; want me to ask Boor to turn the radio down?"  Not "inflict pain on yourself so that you can provide an audience for our antics." 

OP, what are you going to do next time a hike is planned? 

So now you want to control everyone else by not allowing them to listen to the radio because you want to sleep?  You're talking about being just as controlling, it's just on a different subject.  I wouldn't stab Aunt Martha with a fork, but I might nudge her if I noticed her starting to fall asleep -- if the group dynamic was for everyone to stay awake and chat after eating.  If the group dynamic was (like at my family's) to watch football and nap after dinner, I'd let her be.  It all depends on the group that you're in.  If you don't like the group dynamics, then your solution is to leave the group, not to try to control everyone else to do things the way you personally want and not to announce that they're all controlling boors.

What I meant was vis a vis the radio example is that fellow passengers would show some concern for a sleepy friend's comfort, not expect her to pinch herself or use a rubber band (!!!) or otherwise inflict discomfort on herself just to satisfy their own craving for attention.  How that concern is addressed could range from the temp inside the car to use of pillows to ambient sound, whatever is practical.  Point being, they would show tolerance and understanding, not a childish demand for conformity or an obsession with minutia.  
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: KenveeB on August 02, 2010, 08:27:43 PM
What I meant was vis a vis the radio example is that fellow passengers would show some concern for a sleepy friend's comfort, not expect her to pinch herself or use a rubber band (!!!) or otherwise inflict discomfort on herself just to satisfy their own craving for attention.  How that concern is addressed could range from the temp inside the car to use of pillows to ambient sound, whatever is practical.  Point being, they would show tolerance and understanding, not a childish demand for conformity or an obsession with minutia.  

Why shouldn't you show concern for your friend the driver's company, especially when they're the one doing the group a favor by doing the work and putting the wear on their own car?  You keep talking about him "insisting" on driving, but all the OP ever said was that he offered and was "fine" with it.  Why can't you the sleepy use "temperature, pillows, ambient sound, of whatever is practical" to stay awake instead of ignoring all of your other friends and treating your friend the driver like hired help?  You could show tolerance and understanding for how everyone else feels, not a childish demand for everything to be your way.

My point would be the same if the driver was the only person insisting on people staying awake, btw.  In that case, he should let people sleep or stop offering to drive the group.  Either go along with the group dynamics or make other arrangements for the trip, don't force everyone else to do things the way you alone want them.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: Sharnita on August 02, 2010, 08:30:08 PM
He insisted on driving every time, because he enjoyed doing nice things for others. Of course we socialized and chatted during the hike itself, but our drives home were always on the quiet side, like I said earlier, because we were all wiped out. If someone had been real chatty, it probably wouldn't of been appreciated. But I was always the only one who dozed off for some reason. Really, sometimes I was so tired from the hike I honestly couldn't help it  :-[

This is the post we are referring to.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: KenveeB on August 02, 2010, 08:32:56 PM
He insisted on driving every time, because he enjoyed doing nice things for others. Of course we socialized and chatted during the hike itself, but our drives home were always on the quiet side, like I said earlier, because we were all wiped out. If someone had been real chatty, it probably wouldn't of been appreciated. But I was always the only one who dozed off for some reason. Really, sometimes I was so tired from the hike I honestly couldn't help it  :-[

This is the post we are referring to.

Point, sorry.  But she still only said that he was "fine" with it and "offered", not that anyone else ever offered or he refused to let anyone else do it.  There's nothing in the OP to suggest that he was being rigid or controlling about it, just that he had the car everyone fit in.  Sounds like he was being nice ("because he enjoyed doing nice things for others") and everyone, including the OP, has been happy to let him do it.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: BettyDraper on August 02, 2010, 08:40:25 PM
Have I mentioned the driver insisting upon driving?  Where?

I thought it was generally accepted here on this etiquette board that the host is responsible for the guests' comfort.  The driver/vehicle owner is the host.  As you said, he's not "the hired hand;" he voluntarily has accepted a role that involves the safety and comfort of numerous people.  The passengers are the guests.  It is crass and ill-mannered of a host to belittle a guest for something as fundamental (and relatively involuntary) as fatigue and sleepiness, or to abuse his power to cause others discomfort while they are confined in his control.

I ask again: If a passenger requested a rest stop and the majority of the group said "We don't need to go, forge on!" -- would it be considered a case of "my car, my rules" (and frankly I've always thought the "my house, my rules," meme to be unnecessarily rigid and black-and-white) and kudos to the driver for saying "Sorry OP but you'll just have to hold it till we get home -- and I'll do some extra swerving around to make sure your bulging bladder ricochets around inside your abdominal cavity!  Because I'm just that kind of guy!"  Would that be OK, like jostling the OP awake with erratic motions of the car is apparently OK with some of you?

Who on earth would spend a millisecond more than necessary with these people?  
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: KenveeB on August 02, 2010, 10:10:46 PM
The driver isn't the host; he's doing a necessary service for the benefit of the rest of the group.  And yeah, in every group car ride I've been on, we don't stop if one person says "I'd like to stop."  You never get anywhere that way.  We find a time and place that works for everyone.  It usually doesn't take very long.  If the person says "I really need to stop" then that's a different story, but one person's mild desire doesn't trump the rest of the group.  And if one person was saying "I want to stop" every ten minutes while the rest of the group was ready to get home already, then I would also be suggesting that person find alternate transport in the future if she wants to keep stopping so often.

The OP could've stopped this after the first time by offering to drive the group herself and letting everyone sleep if they wanted.  She wants to have the benefit of having someone else drive her and get to decide on all the rules.  That's what you hire someone for.  In a group, you make compromises and let majority rule if there are disputes.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: BettyDraper on August 03, 2010, 06:28:24 AM
The driver isn't the host; he's doing a necessary service for the benefit of the rest of the group.  And yeah, in every group car ride I've been on, we don't stop if one person says "I'd like to stop."  You never get anywhere that way.  We find a time and place that works for everyone.  It usually doesn't take very long.  If the person says "I really need to stop" then that's a different story, but one person's mild desire doesn't trump the rest of the group.  And if one person was saying "I want to stop" every ten minutes while the rest of the group was ready to get home already, then I would also be suggesting that person find alternate transport in the future if she wants to keep stopping so often.

The OP could've stopped this after the first time by offering to drive the group herself and letting everyone sleep if they wanted.  She wants to have the benefit of having someone else drive her and get to decide on all the rules.  That's what you hire someone for.  In a group, you make compromises and let majority rule if there are disputes.

I think several of us have suggested that the OP find new traveling companions, but that doesn't negate the fact that the driver (whom I believe is in host mode, once people are in his vehicle and under his control as driver of the vehicle)  described in her OP is very immature, selfish and desperate for attention if he's actually slamming on the brakes in order to jolt her awake.  And I can't even imagine the dynamics of "a group" that mandates its members stay awake and participatory lest the rest of the group members miss out on a few minutes of attention.  To your point, what kind of "group" has "rules" about when others can take naps in a moving vehicle?  That's friendship?  Shudder.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: PeasNCues on August 03, 2010, 06:39:57 AM
BettyDraper, I think he taps on the breaks, not slams on the breaks. You seem to be dramatizing what the OP has said.  ;)

I still don't understand where you get he is "immature, selfish and desparate for attention"? Seems a leap.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: BettyDraper on August 03, 2010, 06:59:38 AM
BettyDraper, I think he taps on the breaks, not slams on the breaks. You seem to be dramatizing what the OP has said.  ;)

I still don't understand where you get he is "immature, selfish and desparate for attention"? Seems a leap.

I'm not dramatizing but I don't have time to look up her exact wording.  He is manipulating the vehicle in a manner that he hopes will keep sleepy passengers awake -- a mere 'tap' would not 'jostle' a normal-sized person -- and either way it's creepy, controlling, immature and selfish among other things.  Is this guy 16?

Anyone who is more concerned about keeping his audience awake than for his guests' comfort also is immature, selfish and desperate for attention, in my book.  Can anyone really think of a defense for this guy or for the other clods who guilt someone into staying awake? (And "needing company to stay awake himself" is not an excuse; he shouldn't be driving if his waking state is that precarious.)  In a closed vehicle, traveling at normal highway speeds, there isn't much to do, and the sleeping/waking state of the immobile passengers is irrelevant -- unless one is so lacking in inner resources that one requires one's "friends" to be available non-stop.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: Granny Takes a Trip on August 03, 2010, 07:10:23 AM
BettyDraper, I think he taps on the breaks, not slams on the breaks. You seem to be dramatizing what the OP has said.  ;)

I still don't understand where you get he is "immature, selfish and desparate for attention"? Seems a leap.

I'm not dramatizing but I don't have time to look up her exact wording.  He is manipulating the vehicle in a manner that he hopes will keep sleepy passengers awake -- a mere 'tap' would not 'jostle' a normal-sized person -- and either way it's creepy, controlling, immature and selfish among other things.  Is this guy 16?

Anyone who is more concerned about keeping his audience awake than for his guests' comfort also is immature, selfish and desperate for attention, in my book.  Can anyone really think of a defense for this guy or for the other clods who guilt someone into staying awake? (And "needing company to stay awake himself" is not an excuse; he shouldn't be driving if his waking state is that precarious.)  In a closed vehicle, traveling at normal highway speeds, there isn't much to do, and the sleeping/waking state of the immobile passengers is irrelevant -- unless one is so lacking in inner resources that one requires one's "friends" to be available non-stop.

Betty Draper, POD.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: KenveeB on August 03, 2010, 07:12:07 AM
Anyone who is more concerned about keeping his audience awake than for his guests' comfort also is immature, selfish and desperate for attention, in my book.  Can anyone really think of a defense for this guy or for the other clods who guilt someone into staying awake? (And "needing company to stay awake himself" is not an excuse; he shouldn't be driving if his waking state is that precarious.)  In a closed vehicle, traveling at normal highway speeds, there isn't much to do, and the sleeping/waking state of the immobile passengers is irrelevant -- unless one is so lacking in inner resources that one requires one's "friends" to be available non-stop.

Yes, several of us have suggested multiple possible reasons.  You seem to have completely ignored all of them in favor of labeling us all boors.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: Two Ravens on August 03, 2010, 07:12:43 AM
The driver isn't the host; he's doing a necessary service for the benefit of the rest of the group.  And yeah, in every group car ride I've been on, we don't stop if one person says "I'd like to stop."  You never get anywhere that way.  We find a time and place that works for everyone.  It usually doesn't take very long.  If the person says "I really need to stop" then that's a different story, but one person's mild desire doesn't trump the rest of the group.  And if one person was saying "I want to stop" every ten minutes while the rest of the group was ready to get home already, then I would also be suggesting that person find alternate transport in the future if she wants to keep stopping so often.

The OP could've stopped this after the first time by offering to drive the group herself and letting everyone sleep if they wanted.  She wants to have the benefit of having someone else drive her and get to decide on all the rules.  That's what you hire someone for.  In a group, you make compromises and let majority rule if there are disputes.

I think several of us have suggested that the OP find new traveling companions, but that doesn't negate the fact that the driver (whom I believe is in host mode, once people are in his vehicle and under his control as driver of the vehicle)  described in her OP is very immature, selfish and desperate for attention if he's actually slamming on the brakes in order to jolt her awake.  And I can't even imagine the dynamics of "a group" that mandates its members stay awake and participatory lest the rest of the group members miss out on a few minutes of attention.  To your point, what kind of "group" has "rules" about when others can take naps in a moving vehicle?  That's friendship?  Shudder.

Most groups I belong to require members to remain conscious for the entire duration of the activity.  This driver considers the car ride part of the activity, and thinks its rude to sleep during it.  I don't think that necessarily makes him immature.

And for me, "friendship" means sometimes doing things I rather would not to avoid annoying my friends.  Two way street, and all that.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: KenveeB on August 03, 2010, 07:14:53 AM
Most groups I belong to require members to remain conscious for the entire duration of the activity.  

LOL!  Very well-put. :)
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: BettyDraper on August 03, 2010, 07:33:53 AM
Most groups I belong to require members to remain conscious for the entire duration of the activity.  

LOL!  Very well-put. :)

The outing was to hike.  The hike had ended.  What is the can't-miss activity taking place in the moving vehicle?  Chit-chat?  What if the OP were merely silent, looking out of the window and not taking part in general chit-chat because it was on a topic not of interest to her -- say, hockey.  Would she be prodded and jostled until she feigned interest and asked "What are those pucks made of, anyhow?" just to pacify her "friends" ?  Would you consider it acceptable of "the group" to force her to come up with a fake contribution to the conversation?  How much control does the group get over her bodily functions, her thought process, the number of words she utters on the trip home, etc.?  What if she doesn't speak often enough or enthusiastically enough, according to "group standards" ??
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: Suze on August 03, 2010, 07:38:23 AM
and there are times that no matter how much you WANT to stay away

it don't happen

I was in classes last year at a huge SCA event (Pennsic War) and the tents were warm (Lots of people) and in at least two of them I fell asleep

The one teacher came over to me at the end of the class and woke me up and asked me if it was my "first War" (Yes it was) he just grinned and told me to go back to my tent and take a good nap.  

If you really can't help falling asleep - there is no need for the driver to play games to keep waking you up.

while it would have been nice if you could have stayed awake for the trip back to your car - I think a considerate driver would reconize that you would be safer for YOUR drive home if he let you sleep a bit.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: Two Ravens on August 03, 2010, 07:43:36 AM
Most groups I belong to require members to remain conscious for the entire duration of the activity.  

LOL!  Very well-put. :)

The outing was to hike.  The hike had ended.  What is the can't-miss activity taking place in the moving vehicle?  Chit-chat?  What if the OP were merely silent, looking out of the window and not taking part in general chit-chat because it was on a topic not of interest to her -- say, hockey.  Would she be prodded and jostled until she feigned interest and asked "What are those pucks made of, anyhow?" just to pacify her "friends" ?  Would you consider it acceptable of "the group" to force her to come up with a fake contribution to the conversation?  How much control does the group get over her bodily functions, her thought process, the number of words she utters on the trip home, etc.?  What if she doesn't speak often enough or enthusiastically enough, according to "group standards" ??

A "hike" does not mean just the time spent walking in the woods.  Maybe to some people it would, but not to me, nor, apparently, the OP's friends. The group standards are that she stay awake.  That's all.  And I do not consider that a huge burden.

You seem to be putting a lot of effort into villifying these people.  Surely they cannot be so awful if the OP goes hiking with them so often.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: NOVA Lady on August 03, 2010, 07:56:04 AM
I wonder if me and my husband are boors. When we make the 8 hour drive to my home town (which we are making tomorrow morning, grrr) we both prefer that the other stay awake and converse with us, as it helps the other stay awake and alert. Maybe neither of us should be driving!
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: PeasNCues on August 03, 2010, 08:01:24 AM
I could be perfectly fine to drive, but if someone is napping I start to feel a "tug" of sleepiness that is really uncomfortable and then I start feeling tired too. I don't know why.

I also prefer to drive and offer all the time.

People know not to sleep in the car when I am driving unless there is active conversation going on around me (being involved in an active conversation kind of negates the napping, I guess).

According to the OP, everyone in the car was quiet.

I do not equate a tap on the breaks with a slam on the breaks. I do not think anyone here would stick a fork in their aunt to wake up.

And I do not think there is any indication that the driver in this case is a control freak. All I see is that he prefers to drive and he prefers that people not sleep in his car.

Sounds like me.

I am not a control freak.  ;D I promise.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: DangerMouth on August 03, 2010, 08:02:52 AM
The driver isn't the host; he's doing a necessary service for the benefit of the rest of the group.  And yeah, in every group car ride I've been on, we don't stop if one person says "I'd like to stop."  You never get anywhere that way.  We find a time and place that works for everyone.  It usually doesn't take very long.  If the person says "I really need to stop" then that's a different story, but one person's mild desire doesn't trump the rest of the group.  And if one person was saying "I want to stop" every ten minutes while the rest of the group was ready to get home already, then I would also be suggesting that person find alternate transport in the future if she wants to keep stopping so often.

The OP could've stopped this after the first time by offering to drive the group herself and letting everyone sleep if they wanted.  She wants to have the benefit of having someone else drive her and get to decide on all the rules.  That's what you hire someone for.  In a group, you make compromises and let majority rule if there are disputes.

I think several of us have suggested that the OP find new traveling companions, but that doesn't negate the fact that the driver (whom I believe is in host mode, once people are in his vehicle and under his control as driver of the vehicle)  described in her OP is very immature, selfish and desperate for attention if he's actually slamming on the brakes in order to jolt her awake.  And I can't even imagine the dynamics of "a group" that mandates its members stay awake and participatory lest the rest of the group members miss out on a few minutes of attention.  To your point, what kind of "group" has "rules" about when others can take naps in a moving vehicle?  That's friendship?  Shudder.

That's quite a bit of hyperbole there. All I know is that if I were driving with a group of people who were all "pretty wiped out" and the driver wanted us to stay awake, I'd be doing everything in my power to stay awake to make sure the driver wasn't more tired than he was saying. And turning down the radio so the OP can nap? Maybe he should just pull over and wait for her to wake up so as not to disturb her rest?
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: BettyDraper on August 03, 2010, 08:09:40 AM
Well, it seems very needy and ungracious to me but clearly none of us is going to change our opinions based on this discussion. 
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: PeasNCues on August 03, 2010, 08:12:03 AM
Well, it seems very needy and ungracious to me but clearly none of us is going to change our opinions based on this discussion. 
Tis true. We will have to agree to disagree.  :-*
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: high dudgeon on August 03, 2010, 11:43:10 AM
The outing was to hike.  The hike had ended.  What is the can't-miss activity taking place in the moving vehicle?  Chit-chat?  What if the OP were merely silent, looking out of the window and not taking part in general chit-chat because it was on a topic not of interest to her -- say, hockey.  Would she be prodded and jostled until she feigned interest and asked "What are those pucks made of, anyhow?" just to pacify her "friends" ?  Would you consider it acceptable of "the group" to force her to come up with a fake contribution to the conversation?  How much control does the group get over her bodily functions, her thought process, the number of words she utters on the trip home, etc.?  What if she doesn't speak often enough or enthusiastically enough, according to "group standards" ??

Who said an activity had to be "can't miss" in order for the rules of etiquette to apply? If I'm at a boring party, and my friends tell stories I've heard from them in the past, it's okay to just doze off on the couch to rest up for the drive home, instead of at least listening? If she doesn't enjoy these people's company, and she wouldn't be missing anything my dozing off instead of hanging out with them for an hour or two, why would she even be going on an outing with them?

If my plans for the weekend are to pick up some friends and go to the nearby outlet mall, and in the car, instead of talking about our lives and common interests, singing along with the radio, or even just hanging out in a companionable silence, my friends decided to just sleep on the rides to and from the mall, yes, I think that was very rude and I would either ask them to stay awake, or in the future I wouldn't offer to drive again (and wonder if it was really worth spending my free time with them since they valued my chauffeuring more than my company.) OP's case is a little different, due to the strenuous exercise involved, but I don't think it's a complete get-out-of-ehell free card and I don't think the driver is rude for expressing a preference that his riders stay awake.

And since no one at all was slamming on the brakes, there's no point in discussing something that never happened. I do think it was inappropriate for him to use the car like that, since it could have been confusing to other drivers on the road. If whatever he needed to do couldn't be done verbally and safely, he should have pulled over and stopped the vehicle instead of playing games with a car full of passengers.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: Emmy on August 03, 2010, 11:45:24 AM
I do think nodding off is something that the OP can't help and is not rude for doing so.  If the OP intentionally curled up for a nap because she thought the conversation was boring, then that would be rude.  Some people's bodys shut down when they are exhausted, and they fall asleep whether they mean to do so or not.  I am one of these people and have fallen asleep against my will at various awkward times (including when I first met my future in-laws).  I agree with the PP who said if somebody is asleep in an awkward time or place, they probably don't mean to be asleep.  People have pointed out that nobody else in the car had fallen asleep, but not everybody is the same and has the same energy levels.  To use another example, if somebody has a condition such as diabetes that causes them to need to eat more often, should they be chastised for eating just because nobody is hungry and needs to eat.

I do think the OP should either make an effort to stay awake or arrange other transportation if riding with this group.  Personally, I think the rule of expecting nobody to fall asleep in the car is silly and controlling (although I can sympathize with the driver if everybody is asleep).  Despite how the OP feels about the rules, she should abide by the group rules while in this person's vehicle.  I also think it would be rude for the OP to continue riding with this group if she knows she is likely to fall asleep because it seems to be a grievous offence to this group.  If a driver had a rule about going 5 hours before making a rest stop, I would think that rule was unreasonable and silly.  However, I would be rude to agree to riding with him and then demand he stop every 2 hours.  Just because he has a rule that I think is silly doesn't mean I should break it.  Personally, if I had a group of friends who gave me a hard time about something that was causing them no harm and that I could not help, I would reevaluate the friendships.  
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: JoieGirl7 on August 03, 2010, 12:13:42 PM
Most groups I belong to require members to remain conscious for the entire duration of the activity.

Even camping?   >:D
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: Granny Takes a Trip on August 03, 2010, 12:14:00 PM
I could be perfectly fine to drive, but if someone is napping I start to feel a "tug" of sleepiness that is really uncomfortable and then I start feeling tired too. I don't know why.

I also prefer to drive and offer all the time.

People know not to sleep in the car when I am driving unless there is active conversation going on around me (being involved in an active conversation kind of negates the napping, I guess).

According to the OP, everyone in the car was quiet.

I do not equate a tap on the breaks with a slam on the breaks. I do not think anyone here would stick a fork in their aunt to wake up.

And I do not think there is any indication that the driver in this case is a control freak. All I see is that he prefers to drive and he prefers that people not sleep in his car.

Sounds like me.

I am not a control freak.  ;D I promise.

Those are all good points. However, the OP is not the only person in the car with the driver. I actually agree with the people who say that the OP should stop riding with this group. I think that this is really a matter of personal preference, rather than 'rudeness', per se. However, any rudeness that did occur I think comes from the driver, not the OP.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: Granny Takes a Trip on August 03, 2010, 12:16:22 PM
I do think nodding off is something that the OP can't help and is not rude for doing so.  If the OP intentionally curled up for a nap because she thought the conversation was boring, then that would be rude.  Some people's bodys shut down when they are exhausted, and they fall asleep whether they mean to do so or not.  I am one of these people and have fallen asleep against my will at various awkward times (including when I first met my future in-laws).  I agree with the PP who said if somebody is asleep in an awkward time or place, they probably don't mean to be asleep.  People have pointed out that nobody else in the car had fallen asleep, but not everybody is the same and has the same energy levels.  To use another example, if somebody has a condition such as diabetes that causes them to need to eat more often, should they be chastised for eating just because nobody is hungry and needs to eat.

I do think the OP should either make an effort to stay awake or arrange other transportation if riding with this group.  Personally, I think the rule of expecting nobody to fall asleep in the car is silly and controlling (although I can sympathize with the driver if everybody is asleep).  Despite how the OP feels about the rules, she should abide by the group rules while in this person's vehicle.  I also think it would be rude for the OP to continue riding with this group if she knows she is likely to fall asleep because it seems to be a grievous offence to this group.  If a driver had a rule about going 5 hours before making a rest stop, I would think that rule was unreasonable and silly.  However, I would be rude to agree to riding with him and then demand he stop every 2 hours.  Just because he has a rule that I think is silly doesn't mean I should break it.  Personally, if I had a group of friends who gave me a hard time about something that was causing them no harm and that I could not help, I would reevaluate the friendships.  

Total POD to the bolded.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: kingsrings on August 03, 2010, 01:02:33 PM
Like I said earlier, these incidents happened a couple of years ago. We havenít driven in his car to hiking outings since, in fact, I havenít seen him at any lately, and our hiking outings are scarce anyway now. I was just curious on an etiquette point about if this really was rude on my part or anyoneís part to sleep in the car.

If I ever do ride in his car again for hiking, and I invariably fall asleep and he or anyone else gives me a hard time about it, I might just tell them sorry, I canít help it in my most weary-sounding voice.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: high dudgeon on August 03, 2010, 02:55:30 PM
I think if you invariably fall asleep and you know that about yourself in advance, you're better off not accepting any rides from the guy in the first place. Or ask him during the planning stages if there's a way you can sleep in the car that won't bother him. Or drive yourself.

I don't think it's nice to try to manipulate them with your "most weary-sounding voice." You know in advance that it bothers him, and you're going to plan to do it anyway and intentionally try to guilt them if anyone complains? Why not just be honest and upfront and say "It's very unlikely I'm going to be able to stay awake the whole trip back. Is that okay with you, or would you prefer I arranged my own transportation?"
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: June24 on August 03, 2010, 04:39:36 PM
I don't know if this has been mentioned, but I'd never want someone to sleep in my car while I'm driving, simply because it's not safe. In the event of a car accident, the sleeper would be completely unprepared, which can potentially make the impact worse for them. If they're alert, they might be able to steel themselves somehow, which can reduce the chances of serious injury. Especially if the car ride is only a few hours, I'd rather my passengers stay awake for safety reasons.

On a personal level, I do find it rude to sleep in a car while someone's driving, especially if it's not a long, overnight ride. If someone is doing you a favor by driving you, it seems ungracious to just go to sleep and leave them to do all the boring work. I'd sort of feel obligated to stay up and keep the driver company, if I were being driven. Now if it were a paid chauffeur, I think it would be fine (etiquette-wise) to fall asleep.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: Sharnita on August 03, 2010, 05:13:26 PM
I don't know if this has been mentioned, but I'd never want someone to sleep in my car while I'm driving, simply because it's not safe. In the event of a car accident, the sleeper would be completely unprepared, which can potentially make the impact worse for them. If they're alert, they might be able to steel themselves somehow, which can reduce the chances of serious injury. Especially if the car ride is only a few hours, I'd rather my passengers stay awake for safety reasons.

On a personal level, I do find it rude to sleep in a car while someone's driving, especially if it's not a long, overnight ride. If someone is doing you a favor by driving you, it seems ungracious to just go to sleep and leave them to do all the boring work. I'd sort of feel obligated to stay up and keep the driver company, if I were being driven. Now if it were a paid chauffeur, I think it would be fine (etiquette-wise) to fall asleep.

Actually, tensing up in anticipation of a collisions can make things worse.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: June24 on August 03, 2010, 05:35:02 PM
I don't know if this has been mentioned, but I'd never want someone to sleep in my car while I'm driving, simply because it's not safe. In the event of a car accident, the sleeper would be completely unprepared, which can potentially make the impact worse for them. If they're alert, they might be able to steel themselves somehow, which can reduce the chances of serious injury. Especially if the car ride is only a few hours, I'd rather my passengers stay awake for safety reasons.

On a personal level, I do find it rude to sleep in a car while someone's driving, especially if it's not a long, overnight ride. If someone is doing you a favor by driving you, it seems ungracious to just go to sleep and leave them to do all the boring work. I'd sort of feel obligated to stay up and keep the driver company, if I were being driven. Now if it were a paid chauffeur, I think it would be fine (etiquette-wise) to fall asleep.

Actually, tensing up in anticipation of a collisions can make things worse.

I don't have time now to find any sources, but I know that being totally relaxed and unaware during a crash is dangerous. Tensing too much can be bad as well, but being asleep increases the risk of serious injuries because all muscles are totally relaxed. When you're asleep, the muscles are even more relaxed than when you're reading or doing other activities in the car, so it definitely increases the risk.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: KenveeB on August 03, 2010, 06:13:47 PM
If I ever do ride in his car again for hiking, and I invariably fall asleep and he or anyone else gives me a hard time about it, I might just tell them sorry, I canít help it in my most weary-sounding voice.

That sounds like a very PA response to me.  If you "invariably" fall asleep and know that they find that rude, then you should find your own transportation instead of trying to manipulate your friends.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: DangerMouth on August 03, 2010, 07:59:31 PM
I don't know if this has been mentioned, but I'd never want someone to sleep in my car while I'm driving, simply because it's not safe. In the event of a car accident, the sleeper would be completely unprepared, which can potentially make the impact worse for them. If they're alert, they might be able to steel themselves somehow, which can reduce the chances of serious injury. Especially if the car ride is only a few hours, I'd rather my passengers stay awake for safety reasons.

On a personal level, I do find it rude to sleep in a car while someone's driving, especially if it's not a long, overnight ride. If someone is doing you a favor by driving you, it seems ungracious to just go to sleep and leave them to do all the boring work. I'd sort of feel obligated to stay up and keep the driver company, if I were being driven. Now if it were a paid chauffeur, I think it would be fine (etiquette-wise) to fall asleep.

Actually, tensing up in anticipation of a collisions can make things worse.

I don't have time now to find any sources, but I know that being totally relaxed and unaware during a crash is dangerous. Tensing too much can be bad as well, but being asleep increases the risk of serious injuries because all muscles are totally relaxed. When you're asleep, the muscles are even more relaxed than when you're reading or doing other activities in the car, so it definitely increases the risk.

I believe that's not true at all. Tense muscles are more likely to rip or sprain than loose ones, and 'steeling' or bracing yourself for a crash is the equivelent of trying to stop your body, which is moving at, say, 60 miles per hour, with your arms. They'll snap like twigs if you try it. The safest thing to do in an accident is to go limp. If it's a head on, covering your face with your hands is recommended, if you have time.

This is along the same lines of why *severely* drunk drivers often walk away from an accident which has killed others. (this 'protection' doesn't seem to hold for the barely or moderately drunk).

Source: My CA state licenced driving school instructor: this was covered in our class.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: June24 on August 03, 2010, 08:58:20 PM
I don't know if this has been mentioned, but I'd never want someone to sleep in my car while I'm driving, simply because it's not safe. In the event of a car accident, the sleeper would be completely unprepared, which can potentially make the impact worse for them. If they're alert, they might be able to steel themselves somehow, which can reduce the chances of serious injury. Especially if the car ride is only a few hours, I'd rather my passengers stay awake for safety reasons.

On a personal level, I do find it rude to sleep in a car while someone's driving, especially if it's not a long, overnight ride. If someone is doing you a favor by driving you, it seems ungracious to just go to sleep and leave them to do all the boring work. I'd sort of feel obligated to stay up and keep the driver company, if I were being driven. Now if it were a paid chauffeur, I think it would be fine (etiquette-wise) to fall asleep.

Actually, tensing up in anticipation of a collisions can make things worse.

I don't have time now to find any sources, but I know that being totally relaxed and unaware during a crash is dangerous. Tensing too much can be bad as well, but being asleep increases the risk of serious injuries because all muscles are totally relaxed. When you're asleep, the muscles are even more relaxed than when you're reading or doing other activities in the car, so it definitely increases the risk.

I believe that's not true at all. Tense muscles are more likely to rip or sprain than loose ones, and 'steeling' or bracing yourself for a crash is the equivelent of trying to stop your body, which is moving at, say, 60 miles per hour, with your arms. They'll snap like twigs if you try it. The safest thing to do in an accident is to go limp. If it's a head on, covering your face with your hands is recommended, if you have time.

This is along the same lines of why *severely* drunk drivers often walk away from an accident which has killed others. (this 'protection' doesn't seem to hold for the barely or moderately drunk).

Source: My CA state licenced driving school instructor: this was covered in our class.

What about the neck? If you're completely relaxed, isn't the neck more likely to be jostled and injured?

ETA: Actually, the part about drunk drivers surviving more often is apparently not true:
http://www.bigsiteofamazingfacts.com/do-drunk-drivers-survive-car-crashes-because-theyre-more-relaxed-and-how-do-seat-belts-save-lives

But according to that site, tensing your body has no real impact on survival. It seems kind of counter-intuitive - I thought it helped to brace yourself just a little.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: DangerMouth on August 03, 2010, 09:08:29 PM
And do think you can consciously keep your neck from whiplashing when your body is traveling at 60 mph and you stop suddendly? It's just physics, your neck will whiplash, asleep or awake, if there is room for it to do so.

The only time I can see being asleep during a crash as more dangerous than being awake is if you aren't sitting properly in your seat so that the restraints/airbags can act as they are supposed to.

But having been asleep and survived with a broken collar bone an accident that killed the driver (car rolled three times), I'm pretty sure I don't want to see it coming and be all tense and freaking out when the car goes off the road. YMMV.

Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: JoieGirl7 on August 04, 2010, 12:13:24 AM
Come on folks!  "Ya canna change the laws of physics!" *
 
Sleeping or not sleeping in a car isn't going to matter all that much in an accident--too many variables.
 
At 60 mph things happen really quickly.  You can't brace yourself hard enough or fast enough.
 
I had to have this chat with my mother--she thought that having an airbag meant that she didn't have to wear her seatbelt.
 
I gently explained that the airbag only worked if you were still in your seat, which you would not be if unrestrained in a high speed crash.
 
Even though it deploys within milliseconds, that's still not fast enough to catch you if you don't have that seat belt on.

Bracing might help in a low speed situation--but again--too many variables.
 
What I would like to know is why anyone can give a pass to this driver when the method he uses to wake up the OP is to tap his brakes.  Clear road or not, it's kind of childish.




*Scotty, of course!
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: Cz. Burrito on August 04, 2010, 08:14:30 AM
Come on folks!  "Ya canna change the laws of physics!" *
 
Sleeping or not sleeping in a car isn't going to matter all that much in an accident--too many variables.
 

Yes.  There are far too many variables to be able to determine whether it's safer to be asleep or awake.  My sister's life was saved in a car accident because she was sleeping-- she was such that her head was lowered such that she was not struck by the projectile that came through the rear window, but does that mean that everybody should lie down while riding in a car so as to be safer?  Certainly not.  It's just one anecdote.  She happened to be perfectly situated for the physics of that particular crash.  Likewise with being awake.  

Personally, the driver lost all of my sympathy when he refused to accept anybody else's offer to drive (so he must not be that tired) and used the brakes to wake up one of his passengers.  In this situation, it absolutely appeared to be a control thing.  
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: bopper on August 04, 2010, 08:26:52 AM
As someone who has been the driver after a ski trip because I owned the minivan-- I don't think it is rude for one person to fall asleep.  However, I don't really like when EVERYONE falls asleep because I am tired too ...it is nice when at least one person is awake to talk to the driver.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: LadyPekoe on August 04, 2010, 10:44:39 AM
I don't think it's odd that he wouldn't let anyone else drive his car.  I can count on one hand how many other people have driven my car and still have fingers left over.  Some of us don't let other people drive our cars (that's what growing up with an insurance agent for a mom did for me :)  ).

It didn't sound to me that he browbeat people into letting him drive, just that he had the biggest vehicle and didn't want anyone else to drive it.

I'm glad the sleepy people don't drive with me! I have the same stay-awake rule.  Granted, it only applies to the person in the passenger seat, but I drive a sporty little car so the back seat only exists in theory (so only one other person ever is with me). 
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: evely28 on August 04, 2010, 12:05:11 PM
Come on folks!  "Ya canna change the laws of physics!" *
 
Sleeping or not sleeping in a car isn't going to matter all that much in an accident--too many variables.
 

Yes.  There are far too many variables to be able to determine whether it's safer to be asleep or awake.  My sister's life was saved in a car accident because she was sleeping-- she was such that her head was lowered such that she was not struck by the projectile that came through the rear window, but does that mean that everybody should lie down while riding in a car so as to be safer?  Certainly not.  It's just one anecdote.  She happened to be perfectly situated for the physics of that particular crash.  Likewise with being awake.  

Personally, the driver lost all of my sympathy when he refused to accept anybody else's offer to drive (so he must not be that tired) and used the brakes to wake up one of his passengers.  In this situation, it absolutely appeared to be a control thing.  

"One of the guys in the group took it upon himself to drive us all to and from the hiking spots, and he has a large vehicle that can accommodate most of us. He was perfectly fine with this arrangement, and it was always his idea to be the driver."

Though this was written out in a negative way, this is someone offering FREE transportation with a stipulation that no one sleep in the car. Accept or decline. I think the OP is the one in danger of being the boor as she continued to accept the hospitality and yet continued to do something she understood clearly the driver didn't like. I do commiserate with the OP as a follow "conker outer" and again as a driver who wouldn't have a problem with her napping. But I am not THIS driver and I am not the one offering the hospitality. (If I was the driver, I would be asking for gas money)
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: Miss Understood on August 04, 2010, 12:57:31 PM
I am of two minds on this issue.  I think that in most situations, the polite thing to do as a passenger is to remain awake. 

I  have to admit being a tad annoyed with my friend who fell asleep during the entire drive to a bridal shower a couple of hours away.  We both had to get up early for the trip, and I understand that she was tired (and I am one of those lucky people who never get sleepy while driving, regardless of how tired I am).  However, I was bored and would have loved some conversation.  Plus, I had never been to the party location before and I was hoping she would be the navigator,  but since she was sleeping I had to read the directions and drive at the same time, which makes me nervous.

On the other hand, I was the offender in a far more egregious situation.   A friend drove him and me to a white-water-rafting trip organized by another friend who had experience with such trips.  The day started very early getting there (meaning it was dark for the first 2 hours of the trip, and I did stay awake for that portion), and then once we got there, we spent 10 hours navigating the course (we were doing a two-day trip in one day).  Then we all went to a diner for dinner.  After that my driver friend and I took off for home.  It was cold out (and had been so all day) so the heat was blasting in the car to warm us up.  I was exhausted, as I do not usually physically exert myself for 10 hours straight.  Between the heat, my exhaustion, and the big meal, I just could not keep my eyes open no matter how hard I tried.  I donít think Iíve ever been so absolutely compelled to sleep as I was then.  I still feel terrible that my friend had to drive back basically alone while I slept, but I donít know what else I could have done at the time.

So for the OP, I think if she tries to stay awake but canít, thatís all she can reasonably be expected to do.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: high dudgeon on August 04, 2010, 02:52:26 PM
So for the OP, I think if she tries to stay awake but canít, thatís all she can reasonably be expected to do.

I completely agree with this, for the first ride back from the hike. If you can't stay awake, you can't. No one is superhuman and the driver wasn't gracious about it. But in the future, if she knows in advance that she's likely to fall asleep, and she also knows in advance that it bothers the driver that much, I think that changes the situation. The first one is unexpected (both her sleepiness and the driver's reaction to it), but after I think that she can reasonably be expected to do more to arrange the situation to stay awake, or to handle her own transit.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: Miss Understood on August 04, 2010, 04:17:50 PM
So for the OP, I think if she tries to stay awake but canít, thatís all she can reasonably be expected to do.

I completely agree with this, for the first ride back from the hike. If you can't stay awake, you can't. No one is superhuman and the driver wasn't gracious about it. But in the future, if she knows in advance that she's likely to fall asleep, and she also knows in advance that it bothers the driver that much, I think that changes the situation. The first one is unexpected (both her sleepiness and the driver's reaction to it), but after I think that she can reasonably be expected to do more to arrange the situation to stay awake, or to handle her own transit.

That makes sense.  I do not really understand why the driver is so annoyed with one person out of several sleeping in the back, but since the OP knows it does annoy him, she should probably make other arrangements for transportation.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: high dudgeon on August 04, 2010, 04:54:00 PM
On a personal level, I don't get it either. It wouldn't bother me at all, as long as most of the group was awake. And I really don't think the driver handled it well. But I could see several legitimate reasons for it to bother him and I don't think it's rude on his part to make reasonable rules about what happens in his car. I think it's just a case of the two of them not being very compatible on this particular issue, and so it's just better not to travel with him, or to find a way to abide by his rules.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: KenveeB on August 04, 2010, 06:10:54 PM
So for the OP, I think if she tries to stay awake but canít, thatís all she can reasonably be expected to do.

I completely agree with this, for the first ride back from the hike. If you can't stay awake, you can't. No one is superhuman and the driver wasn't gracious about it. But in the future, if she knows in advance that she's likely to fall asleep, and she also knows in advance that it bothers the driver that much, I think that changes the situation. The first one is unexpected (both her sleepiness and the driver's reaction to it), but after I think that she can reasonably be expected to do more to arrange the situation to stay awake, or to handle her own transit.

That makes sense.  I do not really understand why the driver is so annoyed with one person out of several sleeping in the back, but since the OP knows it does annoy him, she should probably make other arrangements for transportation.


It wouldn't bother me if it happened occasionally, but if it happened every time I drove someone, I'd start to feel like the hired help or not interesting enough for her to bother staying awake for.  Neither is a nice thing to make someone feel when they're the one doing you a favor by driving.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: evely28 on August 04, 2010, 06:17:02 PM
On a personal level, I don't get it either. It wouldn't bother me at all, as long as most of the group was awake. And I really don't think the driver handled it well. But I could see several legitimate reasons for it to bother him and I don't think it's rude on his part to make reasonable rules about what happens in his car. I think it's just a case of the two of them not being very compatible on this particular issue, and so it's just better not to travel with him, or to find a way to abide by his rules.

I don't see where the driver didn't handle anything well. He/She made their point to the OP in a gentle/jokey manner. However, the OP disagreed with it and instead keeps accepting the hospitality. I think that's the height of entitlement.
If you don't like what's offered, don't keep benefiting yourself as you complain about the conditions.

Again it doesn't matter what I think or somebody down the street thinks. The driver has let their wish'es be known and that's what you respect If you don't like it, feel free to rack up the miles on your own car and pay for your own gas.

  
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: wendelenn on August 04, 2010, 06:38:52 PM
On a personal level, I don't get it either. It wouldn't bother me at all, as long as most of the group was awake. And I really don't think the driver handled it well. But I could see several legitimate reasons for it to bother him and I don't think it's rude on his part to make reasonable rules about what happens in his car. I think it's just a case of the two of them not being very compatible on this particular issue, and so it's just better not to travel with him, or to find a way to abide by his rules.

I don't see where the driver didn't handle anything well. He/She made their point to the OP in a gentle/jokey manner. However, the OP disagreed with it and instead keeps accepting the hospitality. I think that's the height of entitlement.
If you don't like what's offered, don't keep benefiting yourself as you complain about the conditions.

Again it doesn't matter what I think or somebody down the street thinks. The driver has let their wish'es be known and that's what you respect If you don't like it, feel free to rack up the miles on your own car and pay for your own gas.

  


Depending on the strength of it, I would hardly consider "jostling" to be gentle or jokey.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: geekette on August 04, 2010, 10:02:07 PM
On a personal level, I don't get it either. It wouldn't bother me at all, as long as most of the group was awake. And I really don't think the driver handled it well. But I could see several legitimate reasons for it to bother him and I don't think it's rude on his part to make reasonable rules about what happens in his car. I think it's just a case of the two of them not being very compatible on this particular issue, and so it's just better not to travel with him, or to find a way to abide by his rules.

I don't see where the driver didn't handle anything well. He/She made their point to the OP in a gentle/jokey manner. However, the OP disagreed with it and instead keeps accepting the hospitality. I think that's the height of entitlement.
If you don't like what's offered, don't keep benefiting yourself as you complain about the conditions.

Again it doesn't matter what I think or somebody down the street thinks. The driver has let their wish'es be known and that's what you respect If you don't like it, feel free to rack up the miles on your own car and pay for your own gas.

  


Depending on the strength of it, I would hardly consider "jostling" to be gentle or jokey.

Remember that the OP clarified that it wasn't a physical jostle - he'd either speak to her or would (in her own emphasis) lightly tap the car's break if it was safe.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: high dudgeon on August 05, 2010, 08:49:47 AM
It was the tapping of the breaks that I think was unsafe and rude to the other drivers on the road. If it had stayed verbal, or he was able to tap her on the shoulder, then it would have been fine. But to jostle the whole car and everyone in it, and send confusing signals to all the drivers around him? Possibly risk being rear ended (depending on the traffic)? That seems both rude and irresponsible to me. If he couldn't do it with his voice alone, and he couldn't reach her to tap her on the shoulder, he could ask one of the other passengers to tap her or speak to her, or he could have stopped the car completely. But it's not safe or reasonable to play games with a large, heavy, moving vehicle on a public motorway with other drivers around.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: BettyDraper on August 05, 2010, 08:56:33 AM
It was the tapping of the breaks that I think was unsafe and rude to the other drivers on the road. If it had stayed verbal, or he was able to tap her on the shoulder, then it would have been fine. But to jostle the whole car and everyone in it, and send confusing signals to all the drivers around him? Possibly risk being rear ended (depending on the traffic)? That seems both rude and irresponsible to me. If he couldn't do it with his voice alone, and he couldn't reach her to tap her on the shoulder, he could ask one of the other passengers to tap her or speak to her, or he could have stopped the car completely. But it's not safe or reasonable to play games with a large, heavy, moving vehicle on a public motorway with other drivers around.

I agree; that's quite an insight into his mentality. 
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: DangerMouth on August 05, 2010, 09:09:36 AM
It was the tapping of the breaks that I think was unsafe and rude to the other drivers on the road. If it had stayed verbal, or he was able to tap her on the shoulder, then it would have been fine. But to jostle the whole car and everyone in it, and send confusing signals to all the drivers around him? Possibly risk being rear ended (depending on the traffic)? That seems both rude and irresponsible to me. If he couldn't do it with his voice alone, and he couldn't reach her to tap her on the shoulder, he could ask one of the other passengers to tap her or speak to her, or he could have stopped the car completely. But it's not safe or reasonable to play games with a large, heavy, moving vehicle on a public motorway with other drivers around.

There's nothing unsafe about tapping the brakes. I do it all the time. I tap the breaks as a warning to cars behind me that traffic ahead might be slowing down, but if I'm engine braking (downshifting) instead of braking they might not realize it. I tap the breaks to disengage my cruise control. And if I see the break lights briefly flash ona car ahead of me, that might be a signal for me to pay attention, but I don't go swerving all over the road to avoid a car that briefly flashed it's break lights.

There are plenty of times in the course of normal driving that you'd need to tap the brakes, there is nothing unusual or unsafe about it.

ETA: I do agree that it's a juvenile way to get someone's attention, but I see nothing unsafe about it.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: PeasNCues on August 05, 2010, 09:12:44 AM
I don't see how taping on the breaks could cause an accident? People here tap on the breaks all the time - sometimes to send a "I'm going to slow down in a bit" message, sometimes for other reason (such as inter-car actions they are reacting to that we don't see). Nothing says that the driver isn't paying attention to what's around him when he does it to make sure he is clear to do so safely? Also, what confusing message could be sending to other drivers? I don't understand.

If someone rear ends this guy because he tapped on the breaks, then they were following way too close and not paying attention.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: BettyDraper on August 05, 2010, 09:27:58 AM
A mature and safe driver would not gratuitously manipulate a multi-ton moving object to achieve petty personal gratification.  I tap the brakes all the time too, when I commute, but the reasons have to do with traffic and communicating with other drivers, not to jerk around the people in the passenger compartment.

And I still contend that it takes more than an innocent, playful little "tap" to jostle someone awake; I can depress the brake pedal halfway, reasonably slowly, and not have bags, groceries, etc. go flying, and they are a lot lighter than the OP.  You really have to hit the brakes suddenly and sharply to achieve any noticeable effect on an occupant, especially a sleepy one.  Juvenile and selfish move. 
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: PeasNCues on August 05, 2010, 09:31:37 AM
Ok, we'll have to agree to disagree.  :) I think it's better that then try to reach back and tap the passanger. And I don't agree that the driver was trying to achieve "petty personal gratification."

When I tap the break lightly, it definitely shakes my little Dodge Avenger. I haven't driven a large vehicle since my mom let me drive her Durango (with a HEMI), but as I remember a light tap is enough to shake the vehicle a bit. Don't really see why it would have to be a violent tap to wake a dozing person up.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: DangerMouth on August 05, 2010, 09:32:34 AM
As the OP herself said it was a 'light tap', I think bringing in scenarios of grocery bags flying around is a bit OTT.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: whatsanenigma on August 05, 2010, 09:46:31 AM
To comment on the debate between tapping the brakes versus tapping the sleeper, the idea of a driver taking on unnecessary distractions from the road, no matter what form they take, bothers me, I will admit.

If a driver taps the brakes when there is no road-relevant reason to do so, I suppose it might or might not cause an accident. It might even if it was a light tap, because brake-tapping is used as a communication device with other drivers, who might misinterpret your intentions and act accordingly and set off a chain reaction. It's possible, but the really basic fact is that the driver is, for a moment, not focusing on the road-he's more concerned with whether or not that passenger is sleeping and therefore distracts himself.

If a driver reaches back to tap the sleeping passenger, I don't know if that's better or worse. To do so quickly would require taking one's eyes off the road, even if only for a second. And we all know what a second can mean on the highway. To tap a sleeping passenger *without* turning around would mean a random fumbling in the general direction of the back seat, possibly for several seconds. Still looking at the road, yes, but with a distraction that could mean serious consequences.

Honestly, I think that if a driver has genuine objections to people sleeping in the car, especially if this poses a safety hazard to that driver and especially if it's not okay if just one person stays awake, it is really really important for that driver to always make that known when offering a ride to anyone. That way people who know they are likely to fall asleep can decline. And arrangements can be made regarding if someone who usually doesn't fall asleep does, how will they be woken up? Because falling asleep in a car can happen even to someone it's never happened to before, as we know. Other passengers can be alert to if anyone is falling asleep and can take care of it so the driver can focus on the road.

So, I guess my point is, if the driver in the OP really had a problem with sleeping passengers there was a better way he could have handled it. And if it was just a "I can't sleep so you can't either" thing, something that didn't really pose a hazard and he could have easily lived with, though his circumstances weren't exactly what he would have wanted, he was childish and petty to distract himself from the road just to wake her up.

IMHO of course and as usual.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: Sharnita on August 05, 2010, 10:15:55 AM
It was the tapping of the breaks that I think was unsafe and rude to the other drivers on the road. If it had stayed verbal, or he was able to tap her on the shoulder, then it would have been fine. But to jostle the whole car and everyone in it, and send confusing signals to all the drivers around him? Possibly risk being rear ended (depending on the traffic)? That seems both rude and irresponsible to me. If he couldn't do it with his voice alone, and he couldn't reach her to tap her on the shoulder, he could ask one of the other passengers to tap her or speak to her, or he could have stopped the car completely. But it's not safe or reasonable to play games with a large, heavy, moving vehicle on a public motorway with other drivers around.

I agree; that's quite an insight into his mentality. 

It might make me sick to my stomach as I am prone to motion sickness - one reason I tend to sleep in the car in the first place.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: Giggity on August 05, 2010, 10:33:08 AM
I do not think anyone here would stick a fork in their aunt to wake up.

Wayell, some of my extended family is a little questionable ...   ;D
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: PeasNCues on August 05, 2010, 10:36:11 AM
I do not think anyone here would stick a fork in their aunt to wake up.

Wayell, some of my extended family is a little questionable ...   ;D

LOL! Well, I guess I will amend my statement to say, "I don't think anyone here, except maybe Juana la Loca, would stick a fork in their aunt to wake her up." ;)
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: noexitwounds on August 05, 2010, 10:38:46 AM
Honestly, I think that if a driver has genuine objections to people sleeping in the car, especially if this poses a safety hazard to that driver and especially if it's not okay if just one person stays awake, it is really really important for that driver to always make that known when offering a ride to anyone. That way people who know they are likely to fall asleep can decline And arrangements can be made regarding if someone who usually doesn't fall asleep does, how will they be woken up? Because falling asleep in a car can happen even to someone it's never happened to before, as we know. Other passengers can be alert to if anyone is falling asleep and can take care of it so the driver can focus on the road.
[...]

So, I guess my point is, if the driver in the OP really had a problem with sleeping passengers there was a better way he could have handled it. And if it was just a "I can't sleep so you can't either" thing, something that didn't really pose a hazard and he could have easily lived with, though his circumstances weren't exactly what he would have wanted, he was childish and petty to distract himself from the road just to wake her up.

In this situation the OP *did* know the driver's position on it, at least after the first trip, and yet she didn't decline. The driver wasn't unclear about his expectations, given the first drive in which the OP fell asleep, and the OP wasn't unaware she'd fall asleep, given the first drive in which she did fall asleep.

So, the person who engineered this situation of the driver being distracted isn't the driver -- it's the OP. Why should the driver have to live with something, even if it didn't pose a hazard, in his own car when he was driving the OP as a favor and she had the option of driving herself? It seems to me that the OP is the one being childish and petty by refusing to abide by the driver's rules for his own car or make alternate arrangements for herself. And she was choosing to do this when she *knew* it distracted the driver. it was his car getting wear-and-tear, his gas, his generosity, and I really don't see how someone can argue it's anything but completely reasonable for him to expect that, in exchange for this generosity, people abide by his car rules, whether it's that he gets to control the radio station, that no one may eat in the car, or that no one can sleep in the car.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: high dudgeon on August 05, 2010, 11:16:42 AM
If a driver taps the brakes when there is no road-relevant reason to do so, I suppose it might or might not cause an accident. It might even if it was a light tap, because brake-tapping is used as a communication device with other drivers, who might misinterpret your intentions and act accordingly and set off a chain reaction.

This was exactly what I was trying to say, and thank you for putting it so clearly! The drivers around you have no idea what's going on inside your car, all they know is that your brake lights flashed and they don't understand why and don't understand what you're trying to signal to them. It's a whole different matter if you're tapping your brakes in order to signal to the other drivers, or just because the driving conditions required you to step on the brakes for a second. I also don't think it has to be a violent tap in order to jostle the passengers or wake up a dozing person. Maybe it depends on the specific car and how jerky the brakes are?

I do think there are people who have the ability to nudge someone in the back seat without being distracted, taking their eyes off the road, or fumbling around. My mother was excellent at that, during my childhood! But if the sleeping is distracting, and he can't take care of it without confusing the other drivers or distracting himself, then I think it's time to pull over and settle this when the vehicle is stationary.

I agree that the first time OP chose to ride with her friend, there was some bad communication, he didn't think anyone would sleep in the car and she didn't realize it would bother him at all. But after that, I think it's a different situation than accepting the ride knowing that the sleeping is a problem, and then making plans in advance to manipulate him into getting things your way. Not everyone, even the closest of friends are going to be compatible for every activity and I don't think it makes them bad people, just bad road trip buddies.


Also, it depends on the aunt! Aunt June who is sweet as can be, absolutely not. Aunt Heloise who has been venting for hours about offensive fringe political and religious views, I might be tempted.  >:D
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: DangerMouth on August 05, 2010, 11:27:30 AM
Honestly, I think that if a driver has genuine objections to people sleeping in the car, especially if this poses a safety hazard to that driver and especially if it's not okay if just one person stays awake, it is really really important for that driver to always make that known when offering a ride to anyone. That way people who know they are likely to fall asleep can decline And arrangements can be made regarding if someone who usually doesn't fall asleep does, how will they be woken up? Because falling asleep in a car can happen even to someone it's never happened to before, as we know. Other passengers can be alert to if anyone is falling asleep and can take care of it so the driver can focus on the road.
[...]

So, I guess my point is, if the driver in the OP really had a problem with sleeping passengers there was a better way he could have handled it. And if it was just a "I can't sleep so you can't either" thing, something that didn't really pose a hazard and he could have easily lived with, though his circumstances weren't exactly what he would have wanted, he was childish and petty to distract himself from the road just to wake her up.

In this situation the OP *did* know the driver's position on it, at least after the first trip, and yet she didn't decline. The driver wasn't unclear about his expectations, given the first drive in which the OP fell asleep, and the OP wasn't unaware she'd fall asleep, given the first drive in which she did fall asleep.

So, the person who engineered this situation of the driver being distracted isn't the driver -- it's the OP. Why should the driver have to live with something, even if it didn't pose a hazard, in his own car when he was driving the OP as a favor and she had the option of driving herself? It seems to me that the OP is the one being childish and petty by refusing to abide by the driver's rules for his own car or make alternate arrangements for herself. And she was choosing to do this when she *knew* it distracted the driver. it was his car getting wear-and-tear, his gas, his generosity, and I really don't see how someone can argue it's anything but completely reasonable for him to expect that, in exchange for this generosity, people abide by his car rules, whether it's that he gets to control the radio station, that no one may eat in the car, or that no one can sleep in the car.

This. Also the OP says he "insists" on driving, but I haven't heard how exactly he is doing that. Did the OP offer to drive everyone, but the guy said, "no don't go with her, come in my car"? Did she say "well, I'm driving anyway" and guy says, "well, you can't hike with us if you don't ride with me"?

It really sounds like the OP wants to eat her cake (not drive herself, let someone else take on the long drive, the expense, wear and tear, etc) yet have it too (disregarding the driver's and everyone elses' wishes as to remaining alert enough to be companionable).

I certainly give her a pass the first time, as you don't know how tired you'll be, but once you are made aware of the culture of a specific group, to continue to insist on 'your' way makes it obvious that perhaps OP isn't a good fit for this group.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: PeasNCues on August 05, 2010, 11:29:32 AM
I think that if an accident occurs because someone taps their breaks, it's the other drivers who was driving inattentively or dangerously. There really is no reason a person should see brakelights flash and get so confused that they cause an accident. How could this happen? They slow down? They move lanes without checking first? That's them. Just because they completed the dangerous action whilst confused and disctracted because someone's brakelights flashed for a fraction of a second doesn't mean that the action of taping on the breaks is dangerous to other drivers.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: whatsanenigma on August 05, 2010, 11:53:30 AM
Honestly, I  I really don't see how someone can argue it's anything but completely reasonable for him to expect that, in exchange for this generosity, people abide by his car rules, whether it's that he gets to control the radio station, that no one may eat in the car, or that no one can sleep in the car.

Sorry, I guess I wasn't clear that I wasn't addressing the OP, only the reaction to what happened.

Even if you can say the OP was rude, no question, oh my goodness how dare she, that is independent of the reaction of the driver, or anyone else.

Does her "rudeness" justify the driver's actions? I honestly don't see that it does. We talk so much on this board about how "retaliatory rudeness" is just as bad as the initial rudeness, and I think at the very least that applies to this situation.

If the actions of a passenger are affecting your ability to drive, pull over and address it. If the actions of a passenger are just annoying you, then say nothing for the time and address it later. What I'm saying is that if her falling asleep was just annoying, then the driver was really out of line to put other passengers in danger just because he was annoyed. And if it was a genuine safety issue, it should all have been hashed out, in a conversation initiated by him, before the OP ever even got in the car for the first time.

That is all I am saying and of course it is IMHO.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: DangerMouth on August 05, 2010, 11:56:15 AM
I agree that it's juvenile of the driver, tho I'm not sure I'd call it rude. But certainly the driver saying "hey you guys, wake up sleepy hiker" would be better than trying to do it himself while driving.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: KenveeB on August 05, 2010, 12:41:30 PM
The OP also specifically said the driver would tap the brakes "when it was safe to do so," so all the speculations about situations in which it could be unsafe are irrelevant.  There are times and ways when tapping the brakes would be unsafe, there are times and ways when it would be safe.  OP, the one who was there, has already told us which way it was.  Given that she's the one complaining about the driver's actions, I don't think that she would have downplayed his actions if they were really severe and unsafe, as that would support her side of things.

Edit: I looked up the exact wording, and it was "gently tapping the brakes if the roadway was clear."  Which I think is even more supportive of the driver.  The roadway was clear.  There are no drivers around getting confused at signals and somehow crashing into the car.  And it was "gently", not slamming or flinging grocery bags around.  A gentle tap will jostle the car enough that anyone "nodding off" would notice without turning it into some dramatic action that's about to cause an accident.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: high dudgeon on August 05, 2010, 02:05:06 PM
If the OP was asleep, how could she know whether the roadway was clear? I was a little confused on that. But I still don't think it's a good method in general, even if it wasn't a specific safety problem in this case.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: PeasNCues on August 05, 2010, 02:06:08 PM
If the OP was asleep, how could she know whether the roadway was clear? I was a little confused on that. But I still don't think it's a good method in general, even if it wasn't a specific safety problem in this case.


Well, when she woke up from the jostling and looked around, she could see no cars.

That's what I assume anyways.

I'm still having problems seeing the safety issue.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: high dudgeon on August 05, 2010, 02:10:53 PM
I don't think it's a huge safety issue, but why play games with a huge, heavy, people-packed vehicle in motion when it would be just as easy and effective to say, "Hey, wake up, sleepyhead!" or "Betsey, could you nudge her a tiny bit, she's fallen asleep?"
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: June24 on August 05, 2010, 03:06:13 PM
Honestly, I think that if a driver has genuine objections to people sleeping in the car, especially if this poses a safety hazard to that driver and especially if it's not okay if just one person stays awake, it is really really important for that driver to always make that known when offering a ride to anyone. That way people who know they are likely to fall asleep can decline And arrangements can be made regarding if someone who usually doesn't fall asleep does, how will they be woken up? Because falling asleep in a car can happen even to someone it's never happened to before, as we know. Other passengers can be alert to if anyone is falling asleep and can take care of it so the driver can focus on the road.
[...]

So, I guess my point is, if the driver in the OP really had a problem with sleeping passengers there was a better way he could have handled it. And if it was just a "I can't sleep so you can't either" thing, something that didn't really pose a hazard and he could have easily lived with, though his circumstances weren't exactly what he would have wanted, he was childish and petty to distract himself from the road just to wake her up.

In this situation the OP *did* know the driver's position on it, at least after the first trip, and yet she didn't decline. The driver wasn't unclear about his expectations, given the first drive in which the OP fell asleep, and the OP wasn't unaware she'd fall asleep, given the first drive in which she did fall asleep.

So, the person who engineered this situation of the driver being distracted isn't the driver -- it's the OP. Why should the driver have to live with something, even if it didn't pose a hazard, in his own car when he was driving the OP as a favor and she had the option of driving herself? It seems to me that the OP is the one being childish and petty by refusing to abide by the driver's rules for his own car or make alternate arrangements for herself. And she was choosing to do this when she *knew* it distracted the driver. it was his car getting wear-and-tear, his gas, his generosity, and I really don't see how someone can argue it's anything but completely reasonable for him to expect that, in exchange for this generosity, people abide by his car rules, whether it's that he gets to control the radio station, that no one may eat in the car, or that no one can sleep in the car.

This. Also the OP says he "insists" on driving, but I haven't heard how exactly he is doing that. Did the OP offer to drive everyone, but the guy said, "no don't go with her, come in my car"? Did she say "well, I'm driving anyway" and guy says, "well, you can't hike with us if you don't ride with me"?

It really sounds like the OP wants to eat her cake (not drive herself, let someone else take on the long drive, the expense, wear and tear, etc) yet have it too (disregarding the driver's and everyone elses' wishes as to remaining alert enough to be companionable).

I certainly give her a pass the first time, as you don't know how tired you'll be, but once you are made aware of the culture of a specific group, to continue to insist on 'your' way makes it obvious that perhaps OP isn't a good fit for this group.

Yes, I completely agree with the bolded - it sums up perfectly the problems that I have with OP's behavior.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: JoieGirl7 on August 05, 2010, 04:56:10 PM
Honestly, I think that if a driver has genuine objections to people sleeping in the car, especially if this poses a safety hazard to that driver and especially if it's not okay if just one person stays awake, it is really really important for that driver to always make that known when offering a ride to anyone. That way people who know they are likely to fall asleep can decline And arrangements can be made regarding if someone who usually doesn't fall asleep does, how will they be woken up? Because falling asleep in a car can happen even to someone it's never happened to before, as we know. Other passengers can be alert to if anyone is falling asleep and can take care of it so the driver can focus on the road.
[...]

So, I guess my point is, if the driver in the OP really had a problem with sleeping passengers there was a better way he could have handled it. And if it was just a "I can't sleep so you can't either" thing, something that didn't really pose a hazard and he could have easily lived with, though his circumstances weren't exactly what he would have wanted, he was childish and petty to distract himself from the road just to wake her up.

In this situation the OP *did* know the driver's position on it, at least after the first trip, and yet she didn't decline. The driver wasn't unclear about his expectations, given the first drive in which the OP fell asleep, and the OP wasn't unaware she'd fall asleep, given the first drive in which she did fall asleep.

So, the person who engineered this situation of the driver being distracted isn't the driver -- it's the OP. Why should the driver have to live with something, even if it didn't pose a hazard, in his own car when he was driving the OP as a favor and she had the option of driving herself? It seems to me that the OP is the one being childish and petty by refusing to abide by the driver's rules for his own car or make alternate arrangements for herself. And she was choosing to do this when she *knew* it distracted the driver. it was his car getting wear-and-tear, his gas, his generosity, and I really don't see how someone can argue it's anything but completely reasonable for him to expect that, in exchange for this generosity, people abide by his car rules, whether it's that he gets to control the radio station, that no one may eat in the car, or that no one can sleep in the car.

This. Also the OP says he "insists" on driving, but I haven't heard how exactly he is doing that. Did the OP offer to drive everyone, but the guy said, "no don't go with her, come in my car"? Did she say "well, I'm driving anyway" and guy says, "well, you can't hike with us if you don't ride with me"?

It really sounds like the OP wants to eat her cake (not drive herself, let someone else take on the long drive, the expense, wear and tear, etc) yet have it too (disregarding the driver's and everyone elses' wishes as to remaining alert enough to be companionable).

I certainly give her a pass the first time, as you don't know how tired you'll be, but once you are made aware of the culture of a specific group, to continue to insist on 'your' way makes it obvious that perhaps OP isn't a good fit for this group.

Yes, I completely agree with the bolded - it sums up perfectly the problems that I have with OP's behavior.

And I think that's piling on.
 
To make it out like she is a freeloader because this guy insisted on driving is not fair to her.  He had received offers of payment for gas and for doing the driving from her and from others in the group that he refused.
 
So, as far as this guy playing bus driver--he owns that completely.
 
Whether or not you think he has the right to dictate whether or not people can sleep in his car is really the center of the subject and I don't think anyone's mind is going to be changed as far as what they think.  But, let's not make the OP out to be a freeloader-because she wasn't.
 
She was falling asleep after a long day of hiking, no matter how you feel about the propriety of that, its at least more understandable than someone who falls asleep on the way to a party or other outing because they didn't get enough sleep and were unprepared for the outing.
 
In short, let's discuss the issue at hand and not cast aspersions on the OP.  She is not Marie Antoinette.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: jimithing on August 05, 2010, 05:07:05 PM
In short, let's discuss the issue at hand and not cast aspersions on the OP.  She is not Marie Antoinette.

I'm not sure how this is any different than calling the driver and his occupants boors. The previous posters didn't even call the OP names, just said that they don't agree with how she handled it.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: whatsanenigma on August 05, 2010, 05:07:29 PM

And I think that's piling on.
 
To make it out like she is a freeloader because this guy insisted on driving is not fair to her.  He had received offers of payment for gas and for doing the driving from her and from others in the group that he refused.
 
So, as far as this guy playing bus driver--he owns that completely.
 

Thank you for pointing that part out. I had forgotten about it myself. He had been offered payment and refused to take it. If he wanted payment he had his chance and lost it.

I guess that's the real center of it for me. This guy really really wanted to drive if he was willing to, under those conditions. And no, I don't know how he would have reacted if the OP or anyone else had insisted on not riding with him. But I suspect that he would have been hurt and upset (assuming he really was doing it out of a sincere desire to be nice to his friends, and not just a control freak, though it's possible he was).

It really is a generous thing to do. And if he is the type who doesn't understand that even healthy people sometimes just randomly fall asleep, especially in a moving car, what would his reaction have been to being told the OP would not ride with him, and yes this was a hill to die on, over something he obviously does not understand really is.a.hill.to.die.on?

I'm having a hard time imagining how the OP could have turned down the ride with no hurt feelings, I guess is what I am trying to say. I'm coming up with phrases like "I am sorry that this ride situation is not working out. I will meet you there" and "I will find my own ride because I am respecting your perfectly reasonable request that no one sleep in the car, because I am unable to accomodate it." But said even a little wrong, those things-and everything else I can think of-come off as PA and an attempt to induce a guilt trip.

What I would really like to know is what would have happened if the OP had found a way to do this politely and really stuck to her guns. If she had made it clear that no, she would not be riding in that van (and thus, skipping what seems to be an important part of the outing all together) because there was even a chance she'd fall asleep at some point. Would these friends have suddenly changed their minds, and wanted her in the van for whatever amount of socialization she was able to engage in? Or would it really have been worth it to lose her company for all of both ways of the trip?

If it's the latter...well, I won't jump to anything radical but I would have been thinking more about those particular friendships.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: DangerMouth on August 05, 2010, 05:14:18 PM
Honestly, I think that if a driver has genuine objections to people sleeping in the car, especially if this poses a safety hazard to that driver and especially if it's not okay if just one person stays awake, it is really really important for that driver to always make that known when offering a ride to anyone. That way people who know they are likely to fall asleep can decline And arrangements can be made regarding if someone who usually doesn't fall asleep does, how will they be woken up? Because falling asleep in a car can happen even to someone it's never happened to before, as we know. Other passengers can be alert to if anyone is falling asleep and can take care of it so the driver can focus on the road.
[...]

So, I guess my point is, if the driver in the OP really had a problem with sleeping passengers there was a better way he could have handled it. And if it was just a "I can't sleep so you can't either" thing, something that didn't really pose a hazard and he could have easily lived with, though his circumstances weren't exactly what he would have wanted, he was childish and petty to distract himself from the road just to wake her up.

In this situation the OP *did* know the driver's position on it, at least after the first trip, and yet she didn't decline. The driver wasn't unclear about his expectations, given the first drive in which the OP fell asleep, and the OP wasn't unaware she'd fall asleep, given the first drive in which she did fall asleep.

So, the person who engineered this situation of the driver being distracted isn't the driver -- it's the OP. Why should the driver have to live with something, even if it didn't pose a hazard, in his own car when he was driving the OP as a favor and she had the option of driving herself? It seems to me that the OP is the one being childish and petty by refusing to abide by the driver's rules for his own car or make alternate arrangements for herself. And she was choosing to do this when she *knew* it distracted the driver. it was his car getting wear-and-tear, his gas, his generosity, and I really don't see how someone can argue it's anything but completely reasonable for him to expect that, in exchange for this generosity, people abide by his car rules, whether it's that he gets to control the radio station, that no one may eat in the car, or that no one can sleep in the car.

This. Also the OP says he "insists" on driving, but I haven't heard how exactly he is doing that. Did the OP offer to drive everyone, but the guy said, "no don't go with her, come in my car"? Did she say "well, I'm driving anyway" and guy says, "well, you can't hike with us if you don't ride with me"?

It really sounds like the OP wants to eat her cake (not drive herself, let someone else take on the long drive, the expense, wear and tear, etc) yet have it too (disregarding the driver's and everyone elses' wishes as to remaining alert enough to be companionable).

I certainly give her a pass the first time, as you don't know how tired you'll be, but once you are made aware of the culture of a specific group, to continue to insist on 'your' way makes it obvious that perhaps OP isn't a good fit for this group.

Yes, I completely agree with the bolded - it sums up perfectly the problems that I have with OP's behavior.

And I think that's piling on.
 
To make it out like she is a freeloader because this guy insisted on driving is not fair to her.  He had received offers of payment for gas and for doing the driving from her and from others in the group that he refused.
 
So, as far as this guy playing bus driver--he owns that completely.
 
Whether or not you think he has the right to dictate whether or not people can sleep in his car is really the center of the subject and I don't think anyone's mind is going to be changed as far as what they think.  But, let's not make the OP out to be a freeloader-because she wasn't.
 
She was falling asleep after a long day of hiking, no matter how you feel about the propriety of that, its at least more understandable than someone who falls asleep on the way to a party or other outing because they didn't get enough sleep and were unprepared for the outing.
 
In short, let's discuss the issue at hand and not cast aspersions on the OP.  She is not Marie Antoinette.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree, because I don't see any rule saying X is the issue and not Y, when it's pretty clear that many PP's also feel that Y is at least part of the issue. I think, first time gets a pass, but continuing to not drive oneself on subsequent occaisions when you know X is an issue, places ownership of Y squarely on OP.

No, OP is not Marie Antoinette, Marie of Romania, or Marie Osmond :D, but I do think it makes this group not a good fit for her.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: camlan on August 05, 2010, 05:22:50 PM
As for the OP riding with the driver, depending on where they are hiking, there may not be much room for cars at the trailhead. My friends and I will meet up somewhere and carpool to the trailhead when we do a group hike, because sometimes there's only room for two or three cars to park. Taking two cars would mean that another group might not be able to hike that day, or they would have to park far away and hike a few miles before getting on the trail. Which, if you are trying to make it to the top of a mountain and down in a day, can be a big problem.

Also, there may be a situation in which everyone parks at the start of the trail in the morning, and one car is parked at the end. So everyone finishes the hike together and the driver of the one car takes everyone back to the trailhead to get their own vehicles. For the OP to get her car to the end of the trail, she would need someone along to give her a ride back to the start. The logistics of this could get complicated, depending on the size of the group and where everyone is coming from.

There are a lot of reasons why the OP might be taking rides with this driver, even when it seems to make more sense for her to drive her own car, that do not involve her taking advantage of the driver.

In my group, people have fallen asleep in the car after we get off the trail. No one complains or tries to wake them up. There might be some good-natured kidding when they wake up, but that's about it. We all understand what several hours of steady exercise in the fresh air can do to a person. And if we aren't camping near our hiking spot, it's much better that a tired person get a nap in before getting into his/her car to drive home. And the OP did mention that she could have used the nap before getting into her car to drive the half hour home.

IMO, the driver in the OP was going a little overboard to insist that the OP remain awake, but that's because in similar circumstances, I've fallen asleep and could do nothing about it. Or I've been the driver and had a passenger fall asleep after a long hike. It's never seemed to me to be a reflection on me or the sleeper; just a natural conclusion to a very active day.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: KenveeB on August 05, 2010, 05:40:03 PM
In my group, people have fallen asleep in the car after we get off the trail. No one complains or tries to wake them up. There might be some good-natured kidding when they wake up, but that's about it. We all understand what several hours of steady exercise in the fresh air can do to a person. And if we aren't camping near our hiking spot, it's much better that a tired person get a nap in before getting into his/her car to drive home. And the OP did mention that she could have used the nap before getting into her car to drive the half hour home.

And that's fine for your group.  That doesn't mean it's the only acceptable way for any group to handle it.  And the OP is free to find a group more like yours if that's what fits with her style better.  Remember, this isn't just a driver/OP issue.  It's the entire group feeling one thing is acceptable and OP thinking something else.  Neither has to be wrong, but the OP can't insist that the entire group do things the way she alone wants. 
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: JoieGirl7 on August 05, 2010, 06:35:43 PM
In my group, people have fallen asleep in the car after we get off the trail. No one complains or tries to wake them up. There might be some good-natured kidding when they wake up, but that's about it. We all understand what several hours of steady exercise in the fresh air can do to a person. And if we aren't camping near our hiking spot, it's much better that a tired person get a nap in before getting into his/her car to drive home. And the OP did mention that she could have used the nap before getting into her car to drive the half hour home.

And that's fine for your group.  That doesn't mean it's the only acceptable way for any group to handle it.  And the OP is free to find a group more like yours if that's what fits with her style better.  Remember, this isn't just a driver/OP issue.  It's the entire group feeling one thing is acceptable and OP thinking something else.  Neither has to be wrong, but the OP can't insist that the entire group do things the way she alone wants. 

Actually, I think camlam's group is pretty typical.
 
I think its far more atypical that someone would demand something like this from one of his many passengers.  Most people would be gracious enough to just leave her alone unless they had good reason to do otherwise.
 
And "good reason" is what I see as missing from this.
 
If the OP is hard to wake up when they get to their destination and causes problems for the rest of the group--that would be a good reason.
 
But, "just because I said so, it's my car and I make the rules" is not good enough in this instance.
 
I just can't see that her sleeping when he has other mates to keep him company really has so much of an impact on him for him to make the demand.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: whatsanenigma on August 05, 2010, 06:48:00 PM
I just can't see that her sleeping when he has other mates to keep him company really has so much of an impact on him for him to make the demand.

And if it does have that much of an impact, for the safety of himself and all his passengers, he should have brought this up during the initial conversation when he was offering the rides. And future conversations with the OP should have focused on this, and he shouldn't have just been resorting to childish tactics to wake her up.

You use the word "gracious" and I think that's a good word for what he should have been.

A previous poster mentioned burping in public, just because it's a bodily function doesn't give you freedom to do it whenever and where ever you want, as loud as you want. But can any of us absolutely promise in advance that we will NOT burp between time point A and time point B? Of course not. We try to keep it quiet and then we say "excuse me" and then everybody moves on with their lives. And if one of our company burps, no matter how loudly, and does NOT say "excuse me", we don't throw a fit and poke them and insist they say "excuse me". We just pretend we didn't hear it. (Certain groups of friends in certain joking situations excepted, of course.)

As far as I'm concerned it's the same with sleeping. It should be okay to apologize and move on. (Unless it is a genuine safety issue, as I have said before.) It's odd to me that these friends in the OP couldn't be gracious enough to accept the OP's sleeping, especially if she apologized. If it's really that important, that the driving time is included in the social event, to the point that everyone needs to stay awake, then the OP taking the option of removing herself entirely from that part of the social event should be worse to those friends than taking the chance that she will fall asleep in the van would be, I think.

I know, it's a sensitive issue for me. I admit that. But I'm struggling with this logic.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: KenveeB on August 05, 2010, 06:48:43 PM
Actually, I think camlam's group is pretty typical.

Ignoring, of course, the numerous posters in this thread who've said it's completely typical for them.  That this is atypical for you I'll agree, but that doesn't make it wrong overall.
 
Quote
I think its far more atypical that someone would demand something like this from one of his many passengers.  Most people would be gracious enough to just leave her alone unless they had good reason to do otherwise.

And again, it's not the driver demanding this from a single passenger.  It's the group as a whole deciding what the dynamic is going to be.
 
Quote
And "good reason" is what I see as missing from this.
 
If the OP is hard to wake up when they get to their destination and causes problems for the rest of the group--that would be a good reason.
 
But, "just because I said so, it's my car and I make the rules" is not good enough in this instance.
 
I just can't see that her sleeping when he has other mates to keep him company really has so much of an impact on him for him to make the demand.

And again you're ignoring all of the reasons that have been given throughout the thread.  You're not even saying why they're bad reasons, you're just pretending they don't exist.  Just because you don't like a practice doesn't make it rude.  Just because you personally wouldn't engage in a practice doesn't make it rude.  Just because you don't like reasons for something doesn't make them rude.  And it certainly doesn't make people classless boors just because you would prefer things be done differently.  The OP's solution is to not accept rides anymore.  Period.  Name-calling people that she apparently liked enough as friends to go out hiking with them repeatedly despite this horribly classless behavior is really not appropriate.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: JoieGirl7 on August 05, 2010, 08:38:47 PM
Actually, I think camlam's group is pretty typical.

Ignoring, of course, the numerous posters in this thread who've said it's completely typical for them.  That this is atypical for you I'll agree, but that doesn't make it wrong overall.

Camlan's post is very typical of what hiking trips are like.  She gives a real life example and it jibes with what I hear from my sister and SIL who are active hikers, outbound skiers, canooers and generally outdoorsy trip people.

There have been two posters aside from camlan who have alluded to what their group does in relation to this kind of activity and one those doesn't reveal whether or not it is something even comparable to hiking.  In fact, the way a subsequent post of that poster's was phrased leads me to believe that it wasn't.

Two Ravens:
Most groups I belong to require members to remain conscious for the entire duration of the activity...
A "hike" does not mean just the time spent walking in the woods.  Maybe to some people it would, but not to me, nor, apparently, the OP's friends.


She herself considers the entirety of the activity to be the "hike" and not just the trip home, but as she doesn't give a real life example, so I don't really know that these group activities she alludes to include much hiking or something similar.  i would expect that if they did that she would have bolstered her argument with it.  But, regardless, she states what she considers normal for her group in her experience.

And then there is Kiara:

We used to take a tubing trip in college for a student group.  We'd take a 15 passenger van, and since it was owned by the group, the driver usually was one of about 5 people.  On the way back, everyone was exhausted.  The only person "required" to stay awake?  The one in the front passenger seat, to talk to the driver.  Aside from that, we didn't care if you slept the whole 2 hours back. 

All the rest of the posts use the group that kingsrings is hiking with as their standard.
 
I am taking into the consideration first and foremost the nature of the trip and unlike Two Ravens, unless it was just two people, I don't consider the trip home to be part of the social aspect.  I have gone on day ski trips where it was very much as Kiara described with one person to keep me company and the rest of the passengers slept, read a book or otherwise were quiet and restful.
 
I think the fact that the outing required a great deal of physical exertion needs to be taken into consideration from an etiquette point of view.




 
I think its far more atypical that someone would demand something like this from one of his many passengers.  Most people would be gracious enough to just leave her alone unless they had good reason to do otherwise.

And again, it's not the driver demanding this from a single passenger.  It's the group as a whole deciding what the dynamic is going to be.

Well, then doesn't that blow away the reasoning (or someone's reasoning back a few pages) that its his car, his rules?  Why does what the rest of the group think matter?  Doesn't she, as part of the group get a voice?  Here, she's not allowed to drive, she's not allowed to sleep.  I agree wholeheartedly that she shouldn't go with them again, but seeing as this was long ago, that advice really isn't useful, is it?
 
And "good reason" is what I see as missing from this.
 
If the OP is hard to wake up when they get to their destination and causes problems for the rest of the group--that would be a good reason.
 
But, "just because I said so, it's my car and I make the rules" is not good enough in this instance.
 
I just can't see that her sleeping when he has other mates to keep him company really has so much of an impact on him for him to make the demand.

And again you're ignoring all of the reasons that have been given throughout the thread.  You're not even saying why they're bad reasons, you're just pretending they don't exist.

But, its circular reasoning.  She shouldn't fall asleep because he doesn't want her to, its his car, his rules, the group doesn't want her to--as if this all very normal and I don't think that it is.  Is the OP just supposed to do whatever this man and the rest of the group demand?  Because this group, with few exceptions and people's personal feelings are the only things that have been offered as evidence that what she did was not only wrong but that she was a freeloader.

And as I stated before, if you believe that sleeping on the car ride home is rude, that's what you are going to think.  I don't think that and so I find the driver's behavior peculiar and controlling.
 
You see it a different way and so you see the OP's behavior as being rude.
 
So?  I think this has gone just about as far as it can go!
 
As to the question of whether it is rude to fall asleep on the ride home from hiking, I don't know that we can give a definitive answer.  There are variables that we haven't considered, like how the group was formed, what the gender make-up of the group is and a whole lot of other things.
 
I think that there could certainly be instances where it would rude, but I can think of just as many where it isn't.  And given what I was given in the OP, I don't think that what she did was rude.  That's my opinion and I stand by it.  I appreciate that you stand by yours.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: KenveeB on August 05, 2010, 09:47:40 PM
There have been two posters aside from camlan who have alluded to what their group does in relation to this kind of activity and one those doesn't reveal whether or not it is something even comparable to hiking.  In fact, the way a subsequent post of that poster's was phrased leads me to believe that it wasn't.
<snip sxamples>
I think the fact that the outing required a great deal of physical exertion needs to be taken into consideration from an etiquette point of view.

I've been on camping trips, Ren Faires, tubing trips, and amusement park trips, where there was lots of physical activity.  And I've been to concerts, museums, family visits, and movies, where there wasn't much physical activity.  Under both examples, sometimes people have slept on the way back and sometimes they haven't.  I don't think either one is the rule, it's whatever the group decides for that particular trip.
 
Quote
Well, then doesn't that blow away the reasoning (or someone's reasoning back a few pages) that its his car, his rules?  Why does what the rest of the group think matter?  Doesn't she, as part of the group get a voice?  Here, she's not allowed to drive, she's not allowed to sleep.  

My argument from my first post in the thread and consistently onward was
Anyway, given that everyone else in the car agreed with the driver, I don't think that he's being rude or controlling.  It seems to be the group culture that the drive back is part of the outing and not nap time.  I think that in that kind of situation, it's majority rules.  If the rest of the group was fine with napping, then it would be rude for one person to insist on everyone to stay awake.  But if the rest of the group thinks you should all stay awake, then it's rude for one person to insist on sleeping.

Some people have argued "his car, his rules" and others have argued "majority rules".  I think that both positions have merit, but I've specifically been arguing the latter.
 
Quote
I agree wholeheartedly that she shouldn't go with them again, but seeing as this was long ago, that advice really isn't useful, is it?

The original question was "So, is sleeping in a car rude then? ... But is it rude or inconsiderate to sleep in the car in other situations? Such as in the situation above, where someone gets to rest while someone else drives?"  We're answering the question with "yes, it's rude if the others in the car agree you shouldn't be doing it, so in that situation you should find alternative transportation."  I agree with you that there are situations where it wouldn't be rude, but in the situation that the OP described -- she's riding in someone else's car, this has happened on several occasions, and she has been clearly informed that the rest of the group doesn't consider sleeping on the drive home acceptable -- then I think it is.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: MariaE on August 06, 2010, 02:50:13 AM
The original question was "So, is sleeping in a car rude then? ... But is it rude or inconsiderate to sleep in the car in other situations? Such as in the situation above, where someone gets to rest while someone else drives?"  We're answering the question with "yes, it's rude if the others in the car agree you shouldn't be doing it, so in that situation you should find alternative transportation."  I agree with you that there are situations where it wouldn't be rude, but in the situation that the OP described -- she's riding in someone else's car, this has happened on several occasions, and she has been clearly informed that the rest of the group doesn't consider sleeping on the drive home acceptable -- then I think it is.

POD! I don't personally think it's rude, and I don't understand why the group doesn't want the OP to sleep, but the fact remains that they don't, and she'd be very rude not to respect that.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: blahblahblah on August 06, 2010, 06:10:23 PM
I don't understand why the group doesn't want the OP to sleep, but the fact remains that they don't, and she'd be very rude not to respect that.
But why is it that the 'group dynamic' is the trump card, so to speak? Just because the majority of the group is put out doesn't mean that the OP is therefore rude. The majority is not always right, especially when the request is unreasonable (which in this case I think it is, because people often can't control the act of falling asleep).

I can think of plenty of examples where the large majority of a group might feel a particular way about something, e.g. say you have a tightknit group of friends who throw huge birthday parties for each person, and most of them consider it a grievous sin if you skip out on a birthday bash for whatever reason short of death (what, I'm not speaking from experience...okay, maybe a little). Are you being rude if you then miss a birthday party?

That said, even though I don't think the OP is rude, she might just need to find new people to ride with, because this group doesn't sound like the best fit.

I've seen on this thread the idea that the OP is rude for continuing to accept rides even after knowing how the group feels. Well, why can't we turn that question around back on to the rest of the group? They are continuing to offer the OP rides even though they know she has a habit of falling asleep in cars. So why can't we just as easily say to the rest of the group, "Well, you know what you're getting into when you get into a car with the OP, so suck it up, buttercup." If it bothers them that much, they should just stop offering rides to the OP.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: TinyVulgarUnicorn on August 06, 2010, 07:40:16 PM
I don't understand why the group doesn't want the OP to sleep, but the fact remains that they don't, and she'd be very rude not to respect that.
But why is it that the 'group dynamic' is the trump card, so to speak? Just because the majority of the group is put out doesn't mean that the OP is therefore rude. The majority is not always right, especially when the request is unreasonable (which in this case I think it is, because people often can't control the act of falling asleep).

I can think of plenty of examples where the large majority of a group might feel a particular way about something, e.g. say you have a tightknit group of friends who throw huge birthday parties for each person, and most of them consider it a grievous sin if you skip out on a birthday bash for whatever reason short of death (what, I'm not speaking from experience...okay, maybe a little). Are you being rude if you then miss a birthday party?

That said, even though I don't think the OP is rude, she might just need to find new people to ride with, because this group doesn't sound like the best fit.

I've seen on this thread the idea that the OP is rude for continuing to accept rides even after knowing how the group feels. Well, why can't we turn that question around back on to the rest of the group? They are continuing to offer the OP rides even though they know she has a habit of falling asleep in cars. So why can't we just as easily say to the rest of the group, "Well, you know what you're getting into when you get into a car with the OP, so suck it up, buttercup." If it bothers them that much, they should just stop offering rides to the OP.

Umm...the bolded is not an acceptable excuse for rude behavior.  I'm sorry, but if I was offering a ride to a friend and I asked them not to do something in my car and they told me that I would tell them immediately that they could drive themselves.  Just because someone offers hospitality does not give the other person the right to walk all over that person's hospitality. 

Like MariaE I agree that falling asleep isn't rude and I might not understand why the group requires her to stay awake, but once the OP became aware of the groups request and continued to ignore it I believe it became rude.  I think its rude from the perspective that she has other options and continued to accept rides where she knew how the group feels and knew the drivers rules for driving in his car, but she continued to flout them.  Whether falling asleep in a car is rude or not is irrelevant because she was told the rules from the get go by both the driver and the group.  She could have chosen to drive herself, but she continued to accept the hospitality of the driver.  I can understand that some people would have a hard time staying awake and can't prevent themselves from falling asleep, but if you know that about yourself than you should find other driving accommodations. 
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: kudeebee on August 06, 2010, 10:15:51 PM
I have not read all the posts, but I want to say that I don't think it is rude to sleep in the car in this situation.  OP said the hikes tire her out and she kept nodding off.  It is not like she is saying she doesn't want to interact with them and just wants to sleep.  So, I think it was rude of the rest of them to wake her up.

I know that if I am very tired, I have trouble staying awake no matter what is going on.  Sometimes a quick doze is all that it takes to perk me up again.  It might be the same with the OP.  If they had let her doze, even for a few minutes and then she woke up, she probably could have stayed awake.  Plus there were others in the car who were awake and could converse with the driver.

I am a person who can go to sleep in a car easily, even if I am not tired--that is just the way I am.  Efforts to keep me awake just make it worse rather than letting me snooze for awhile. wake up on my own, and then be ready to interact with the driver and others.

The others know this about the OP, so they should leave her alone.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: DangerMouth on August 06, 2010, 10:34:14 PM
I was trying to think of another situation that would be analogous to this one, where neither sides actions are rude in themselves, but could cause dissention or hard feelings.

The nearest I can come up with is if a group of people get together regularly for a potluck meal, and one person 'insists' on bringing the mashed potatoes. The MP bringer makes it with garlic, and everyone likes it with garlic except for the OP. OP knows this is the case, but eats it every time, and every time complains about it. Eventually, others will say, "either don't eat it, or bring your own".

Some might consider it 'gracious' if the MP bringer made the dish garlic-less, but shouldn't the majority rule in a case like this? It would be even more gracious and less of an inconvienience on the majority if the OP brought her own, or if she felt impelled to eat it, at least stop disparging it?
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: Granny Takes a Trip on August 07, 2010, 04:52:31 AM
In my group, people have fallen asleep in the car after we get off the trail. No one complains or tries to wake them up. There might be some good-natured kidding when they wake up, but that's about it. We all understand what several hours of steady exercise in the fresh air can do to a person. And if we aren't camping near our hiking spot, it's much better that a tired person get a nap in before getting into his/her car to drive home. And the OP did mention that she could have used the nap before getting into her car to drive the half hour home.

And that's fine for your group.  That doesn't mean it's the only acceptable way for any group to handle it.  And the OP is free to find a group more like yours if that's what fits with her style better.  Remember, this isn't just a driver/OP issue.  It's the entire group feeling one thing is acceptable and OP thinking something else.  Neither has to be wrong, but the OP can't insist that the entire group do things the way she alone wants. 

Actually, I think camlam's group is pretty typical.
 
I think its far more atypical that someone would demand something like this from one of his many passengers.  Most people would be gracious enough to just leave her alone unless they had good reason to do otherwise.
 
And "good reason" is what I see as missing from this.
 
If the OP is hard to wake up when they get to their destination and causes problems for the rest of the group--that would be a good reason.
 
But, "just because I said so, it's my car and I make the rules" is not good enough in this instance.
 
I just can't see that her sleeping when he has other mates to keep him company really has so much of an impact on him for him to make the demand.

POD. His whole attidude smacks of (benevolently) bullying micromanagement. Again, it would be different if OP was the only passenger in the car. As it is, I do agree that OP is a poor fit for the group. I don't agree that she is a snowflake. I think the driver is, a bit.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: Granny Takes a Trip on August 07, 2010, 04:58:52 AM
I don't understand why the group doesn't want the OP to sleep, but the fact remains that they don't, and she'd be very rude not to respect that.
But why is it that the 'group dynamic' is the trump card, so to speak? Just because the majority of the group is put out doesn't mean that the OP is therefore rude. The majority is not always right, especially when the request is unreasonable (which in this case I think it is, because people often can't control the act of falling asleep).

I can think of plenty of examples where the large majority of a group might feel a particular way about something, e.g. say you have a tightknit group of friends who throw huge birthday parties for each person, and most of them consider it a grievous sin if you skip out on a birthday bash for whatever reason short of death (what, I'm not speaking from experience...okay, maybe a little). Are you being rude if you then miss a birthday party?

That said, even though I don't think the OP is rude, she might just need to find new people to ride with, because this group doesn't sound like the best fit.

I've seen on this thread the idea that the OP is rude for continuing to accept rides even after knowing how the group feels. Well, why can't we turn that question around back on to the rest of the group? They are continuing to offer the OP rides even though they know she has a habit of falling asleep in cars. So why can't we just as easily say to the rest of the group, "Well, you know what you're getting into when you get into a car with the OP, so suck it up, buttercup." If it bothers them that much, they should just stop offering rides to the OP.

Poddity pod pod! Just because something is 'the group dymamic, does not make it polite. By that logic, high school bullies would be polite, and the one in their group who refused to participate in bullting rude. That definition of 'rude' jus doesn't fly. Having said that, the OP would be well advised to find a new group to ride with. These people sound irritating, at best.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: evely28 on August 07, 2010, 10:20:48 AM
I don't understand how it can be considered not rude to accept hospitality and then go against the expressed wish'es of the giver. Maybe the thread title should be changed to "Is it rude to sleep in the car when the driver has told you not to?" because the etiquette of this situation in not on the first, it's on the second.

I also think it's inconsiderate to the other passengers, some may be more tired than the OP, but are willing to not sleep to respect the rules of the driver. So how is this not snowflakey or boorish?

Again, while I commiserate with the OP and wouldn't have this rule in my car, since it is the rule for this particular mode of transportation, I would urge the OP to find a group with a "sleeping car".

Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: Granny Takes a Trip on August 07, 2010, 10:34:06 AM
I don't understand how it can be considered not rude to accept hospitality and then go against the expressed wish'es of the giver. Maybe the thread title should be changed to "Is it rude to sleep in the car when the driver has told you not to?" because the etiquette of this situation in not on the first, it's on the second.

I also think it's inconsiderate to the other passengers, some may be more tired than the OP, but are willing to not sleep to respect the rules of the driver. So how is this not snowflakey or boorish?

Again, while I commiserate with the OP and wouldn't have this rule in my car, since it is the rule for this particular mode of transportation, I would urge the OP to find a group with a "sleeping car".



ITA with the last part of your post. However, I heartily disagree that the OP was rude in any way. I think that the others are rude, and ,yes, boorish. If they really felt so strongly about it, they should have approached it in a more mature manner. And really, it doesn't sound as if they wanted to keep her awake for a good reason, just that they flet she 'should' be  awake. If they had even come up with a 'sleep rota' I would have seen the point. As it was, they resorted to high school tactics. Immature and ridiculous.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: Sharnita on August 07, 2010, 10:39:03 AM
So if somebody insisted on driving and they found the way I sneeze irriating would they be justified in banning me and everyone else from sneezing?  I don't think Op has indicated anywhere that she could stay awake but chose to sleep - it sounds like it happened whether she wants it too or not, kinda like a sneeze.  Now, I would find anyone who banned sneezing boorish - because it is generally outside a person's control.  I would also refuse rides from them in the future but that wouldn't mean that their decree was reasonable.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: noexitwounds on August 07, 2010, 11:02:51 PM
So if somebody insisted on driving and they found the way I sneeze irriating would they be justified in banning me and everyone else from sneezing?  I don't think Op has indicated anywhere that she could stay awake but chose to sleep - it sounds like it happened whether she wants it too or not, kinda like a sneeze.  Now, I would find anyone who banned sneezing boorish - because it is generally outside a person's control.  I would also refuse rides from them in the future but that wouldn't mean that their decree was reasonable.

Well, let's say that you're sneezing not just sometimes but regularly (as the OP kept falling asleep, as in multiple times in a single trip) and the driver or one of the passengers has a weakened immune system (maybe from a chronic condition, maybe because they're just getting over something). Therefore, they ask you to please try to control your sneezing. You do try to control it, but you can't because you're sick or you have allergies.

Do you accept a ride with them a second time, presuming your situation hasn't changed (i.e. you're still sneezing regularly), even though you know it'll upset the driver and other passengers?

I'd say if you do, when you have other choices, you'd be rude. It's not rude of you to sneeze -- it's rude to accept hospitality and then do something that flouts and disrespects that hospitality. Now, you can say that it's not the same situation because in the sneezing example there's a definite medical risk -- however, without knowing the driver's (or passengers') actual motivation for being upset at the sleeping we can't say it wasn't a medical reason (whether it made the driver sleepy if anyone slept in his car or if he had an anxiety issue related to people sleeping in cars, etc.).

I will say that this guy shouldn't have continued offering the OP a ride. I can only figure he did because he felt it'd be rude to offer a ride to everyone but the OP.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: Granny Takes a Trip on August 08, 2010, 02:37:01 AM
So if somebody insisted on driving and they found the way I sneeze irriating would they be justified in banning me and everyone else from sneezing?  I don't think Op has indicated anywhere that she could stay awake but chose to sleep - it sounds like it happened whether she wants it too or not, kinda like a sneeze.  Now, I would find anyone who banned sneezing boorish - because it is generally outside a person's control.  I would also refuse rides from them in the future but that wouldn't mean that their decree was reasonable.

Well, let's say that you're sneezing not just sometimes but regularly (as the OP kept falling asleep, as in multiple times in a single trip) and the driver or one of the passengers has a weakened immune system (maybe from a chronic condition, maybe because they're just getting over something). Therefore, they ask you to please try to control your sneezing. You do try to control it, but you can't because you're sick or you have allergies.

Do you accept a ride with them a second time, presuming your situation hasn't changed (i.e. you're still sneezing regularly), even though you know it'll upset the driver and other passengers?

I'd say if you do, when you have other choices, you'd be rude. It's not rude of you to sneeze -- it's rude to accept hospitality and then do something that flouts and disrespects that hospitality. Now, you can say that it's not the same situation because in the sneezing example there's a definite medical risk -- however, without knowing the driver's (or passengers') actual motivation for being upset at the sleeping we can't say it wasn't a medical reason (whether it made the driver sleepy if anyone slept in his car or if he had an anxiety issue related to people sleeping in cars, etc.).

I will say that this guy shouldn't have continued offering the OP a ride. I can only figure he did because he felt it'd be rude to offer a ride to everyone but the OP.

The problem with this is that you're right, the OP does not know the reason for the driver to be uncomfortable with her sleeping. Why? Because he chose to play silly games, instead of coming out and telling her what his reason was. I am actually reluctant to give him the benefit of the doubt, because I agree with PPs that his attitude seems quite controlling. I think he might just object to OP sleeping because it is something he can intefere with. Even of that is not the case, I think it is still his responsibility to let the OP know why he has this rule. Yes, it is 'his car, his rules' but this rule does not seem very reasonable without explanation. and I think common courtesy requires him to give it.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: TinyVulgarUnicorn on August 08, 2010, 02:49:17 AM
The problem with this is that you're right, the OP does not know the reason for the driver to be uncomfortable with her sleeping. Why? Because he chose to play silly games, instead of comingout and telling her twhat his reason was. I am actually reluctant to give him the benefit of the doubt, because I agree with PPs that his attitude seems quite controlling. I think he moght just object to OP slepping because it is something he can intefere with. Even of that is not the case, I think it is still his responsibility to let the OP know why he has this rule. Yes, it is 'his car, his rules' but this rule does not seem very reasonable without explanation. and I think common courtesy requires him to give it.

Haven't we always said on this board that a reason isn't necessary as long as you word the request in a polite way?  I don't think he needs a reason...it's his car and his hospitality.  If she had a problem with his request than she could have used another form of transportation. 

It would be as if I went to someone's house and they asked me not to eat in their living room.  I don't need an explanation and it would be rude on my part to ask why.  Courtesy doesn't require that they give me this answer.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: Granny Takes a Trip on August 08, 2010, 03:09:31 AM
The problem with this is that you're right, the OP does not know the reason for the driver to be uncomfortable with her sleeping. Why? Because he chose to play silly games, instead of comingout and telling her twhat his reason was. I am actually reluctant to give him the benefit of the doubt, because I agree with PPs that his attitude seems quite controlling. I think he moght just object to OP slepping because it is something he can intefere with. Even of that is not the case, I think it is still his responsibility to let the OP know why he has this rule. Yes, it is 'his car, his rules' but this rule does not seem very reasonable without explanation. and I think common courtesy requires him to give it.

Haven't we always said on this board that a reason isn't necessary as long as you word the request in a polite way?  I don't think he needs a reason...it's his car and his hospitality.  If she had a problem with his request than she could have used another form of transportation. 

It would be as if I went to someone's house and they asked me not to eat in their living room.  I don't need an explanation and it would be rude on my part to ask why.  Courtesy doesn't require that they give me this answer.

While you have a point, I don't think he really did phrase his request in a polite way. I'm not a big fan of joking around when you want to be taken seriously. It is immature. I also think that the not eating in the living room is different from  not sleeping in the car. It is much more easily controllable. There is also an imlicit reason for it (no mess) even if that reason is not explicitly given. Under the circumstances, the 'no sleeping' rule does not seem reasonable. I agree with PPs who say that OP should find alternative driving arrangements. I disagree that she's the rude one, even though she goes against the group dynamic.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: whatsanenigma on August 09, 2010, 07:49:02 AM
Under the circumstances, the 'no sleeping' rule does not seem reasonable. I agree with PPs who say that OP should find alternative driving arrangements. I disagree that she's the rude one, even though she goes against the group dynamic.

I agree with this.

And as I have said before, I wonder how it would have actually gone over if the OP had tried to refuse the rides on this basis.

If a group of people really consider the drive there and the drive back to be part of the social outing, and they really don't want anyone to sleep, well personally I find that unreasonable especially after a heavy physical activity like a hike. But if that's what they want, well, okay.

But if the drive there and back is part of the social activity, then wouldn't they be very likely to take offense at anyone choosing not to engage in that part of it at all?

If the OP doesn't even know for sure that she will fall asleep, her declining to ride with the group might mean that they lose her company for the whole time (say, an hour). If she falls asleep for 10 minutes they still get her company for 50 minutes. Even if she falls asleep for 55 minutes, they still get 5 minutes of her company that they wouldn't get if she found alternative transportation.

I am very curious as to what would have happened with this group had the OP just flat out declined. It obviously was important to this driver that he do a favor to the group. Giving hospitality gave him pride and satisfaction. And for someone to just reject it, no matter how politely, I just think it would have caused even more group tension.

And in that case...well, I would question just how good of friends these people really were.

It's such an impossible situation. They want her in the car. But not to fall asleep. She can't help falling asleep. But they want her there and there is no graceful way (I can think of) to not be in that car that wouldn't cause offense. And if it's for the sake of socializing with the others, she loses all of it by respecting their wishes to not lose even a little bit by falling asleep.

I wonder if they would have changed their tune and realized this if she had brought it up directly, or if it really would have been worth it to them for her to find her own ride. Or if there would have just been a big stupid fight.

Bad situation, all the way around.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: Granny Takes a Trip on August 09, 2010, 08:22:30 AM
Under the circumstances, the 'no sleeping' rule does not seem reasonable. I agree with PPs who say that OP should find alternative driving arrangements. I disagree that she's the rude one, even though she goes against the group dynamic.

I agree with this.

And as I have said before, I wonder how it would have actually gone over if the OP had tried to refuse the rides on this basis.

If a group of people really consider the drive there and the drive back to be part of the social outing, and they really don't want anyone to sleep, well personally I find that unreasonable especially after a heavy physical activity like a hike. But if that's what they want, well, okay.

But if the drive there and back is part of the social activity, then wouldn't they be very likely to take offense at anyone choosing not to engage in that part of it at all?

If the OP doesn't even know for sure that she will fall asleep, her declining to ride with the group might mean that they lose her company for the whole time (say, an hour). If she falls asleep for 10 minutes they still get her company for 50 minutes. Even if she falls asleep for 55 minutes, they still get 5 minutes of her company that they wouldn't get if she found alternative transportation.

I am very curious as to what would have happened with this group had the OP just flat out declined. It obviously was important to this driver that he do a favor to the group. Giving hospitality gave him pride and satisfaction. And for someone to just reject it, no matter how politely, I just think it would have caused even more group tension.

And in that case...well, I would question just how good of friends these people really were.

It's such an impossible situation. They want her in the car. But not to fall asleep. She can't help falling asleep. But they want her there and there is no graceful way (I can think of) to not be in that car that wouldn't cause offense. And if it's for the sake of socializing with the others, she loses all of it by respecting their wishes to not lose even a little bit by falling asleep.

I wonder if they would have changed their tune and realized this if she had brought it up directly, or if it really would have been worth it to them for her to find her own ride. Or if there would have just been a big stupid fight.

Bad situation, all the way around.

POD. The driver and fellow passengers sound like a real bunch (flurry?) of snowflakes.  OP, I think you're better off wihout them, for driving anyway. Let Mr. Benevolence exert his benign dictatorship over someone else.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: JoieGirl7 on August 09, 2010, 01:38:03 PM
Could we maybe introduce some defined variables into this thread?
 
As the actual story in the OP took place long ago, none of our advice is really relevant anymore and we are arguing in circles.
 
Why don't we take a look at how this kind of situation would play out with defined groups.
 
For instance:  maybe its a hiking group put together by REI or a community recreation service.
 
Maybe its a group of like ages--or various ages--or possibly even relatives.
 
What if we switch up the genders of the driver and the sleeper in the car?

If we define some of those variables, then we can discuss what various scenarios that we would find rude or not rude and maybe establish more common ground.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: WhiteTigerCub on August 09, 2010, 01:51:08 PM
IMHO if the driver of a vehicle gets tired when driving and needs someone to help them stay awake, then he/she should communicate it as everyone is getting in the car. Someone can then volunteer to sit in the passenger seat for that purpose.

It should not matter at all if others in the vehicle choose to sleep if they are tired. Seriously, if a person cannot drive with others sleeping in the car, then perhaps he/she is not the right person to be driving a group on long trips anyway.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: whatsanenigma on August 09, 2010, 01:57:58 PM
IMHO if the driver of a vehicle gets tired when driving and needs someone to help them stay awake, then he/she should communicate it as everyone is getting in the car. Someone can then volunteer to sit in the passenger seat for that purpose.

I would also add that it needs to be okay, if that person starts to feel sleepy, for that person to request that the driver pull over so "shotgun" can switch off with someone else.

I think it would be very rude to insist that the same person take on the duty all the way, even if at first that person said it would be okay. We all get sleepy, and at unpredictable times sometimes.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: JoieGirl7 on August 09, 2010, 02:12:22 PM
What do you think of allowing the driver to insist on driving all the time without compensation or gas money?  Should that be discouraged in groups?
 
I think it tends to unbalance them a bit.  But, I can understand why someone people wouldn't want certain people driving.  And it could be a function of whose car is the largest.
 
But, then, I think the others should pitch in with some kind of compensation or gas money because otherwise, everyone in the car is then kind of freeloading whether they are sleeping or not.  I don't think that not sleeping in the car makes up for not driving or pitching in monetarily.

As to the social aspects, I don't consider the time after a great exertion to be part of the social activity--its more of a quiet time.
 
And I would have a problem with someone sleeping in my car if I couldn't get them out at the end of the trip.  If they were so sleepy that it was unpleasant to uproot them that I would consider that a problem, but I probably would just make a point to wake them up about 15 minutes before the destination and not demand that they not sleep at all.
 
People have made some really good points in general about how if you are the driver to make your expectations known from the start.
 
I have been in a car when the driver proclaimed that there would be no potty stops after we were underway.  That's just not going to work for me under any circumstance.  And it was my FIL!
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: Sharnita on August 09, 2010, 02:48:57 PM
I think it depends if others have offered to drive and/or compensate.  If an individual insists on his/her vehicle that gets terrible gas mileage when other vehicles are available then I think he/she souldn't expect much in terms of gas money.  I think that if they turn down gas money a couple times they shouldn't expect their passengers to keep trying to convince tehm  otherwise.  I see tht not as people freeloading but of people being forced into indebtedness.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: whatsanenigma on August 09, 2010, 02:51:02 PM
But, then, I think the others should pitch in with some kind of compensation or gas money because otherwise, everyone in the car is then kind of freeloading whether they are sleeping or not.  I don't think that not sleeping in the car makes up for not driving or pitching in monetarily.

I have been thinking about this and I am wondering if it should be viewed as, if one person insists on doing all the driving, and paying for all the gas, although others have offered, then that driver becomes more like the host of a party than they were before.

We have had many, many threads here where we discuss whether or not someone was a "bad host" and we do come to the conclusion that yes, sometimes a host is a bad host. There are certain rules of hospitality involving reciprocal obligations between guests and hosts, and while the guest does have important obligations, and the host has the right to set certain rules and boundaries, we don't just say "your house/party, your rules" and that magically makes anything the host does okay.

I realize that for what it's worth I've been viewing the driver in the OP the same way I would someone who invited people over to his house for a party and paid for all the food and drinks and such and didn't expect anything in return besides reasonable expectations for guests, and so he is therefore under the obligation of a host to be gracious if someone commits what he considers a "faux pas". No, as a host you don't want someone passing gas noticeably at your dinner table, for example, but by the same token you do not point at the offender and loudly call them out. You pretend as though you did not notice. That is, of course, proper etiquette.

I also realize that others in this thread might not be seeing this the same way. The driver, to them, is merely someone who is doing a huge favor to some other people. Not that this is a small thing. But if it is simply a huge favor, then his obligations are different, IMHO.

I don't know, what do you all think?
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: whatsanenigma on August 09, 2010, 02:54:56 PM
I see tht not as people freeloading but of people being forced into indebtedness.

If we consider him to be the "host" in that situation, though, I don't see there is indebtedness.

If we attend a party at someone's house we do not consider ourselves freeloaders because we freely partake of the offered hospitality even though we brought no food or drinks or games or whatever ourselves.

Of course, if we see this as more a host/guest situation, the obligations of the "host" change, though, IMHO.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: Sharnita on August 09, 2010, 03:03:39 PM
I see tht not as people freeloading but of people being forced into indebtedness.

If we consider him to be the "host" in that situation, though, I don't see there is indebtedness.

If we attend a party at someone's house we do not consider ourselves freeloaders because we freely partake of the offered hospitality even though we brought no food or drinks or games or whatever ourselves.

Of course, if we see this as more a host/guest situation, the obligations of the "host" change, though, IMHO.

If your host never agreed to be your guest, always insisted that he host but also expected to control what his guests were doing would he really be much of a host?
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: whatsanenigma on August 09, 2010, 03:10:56 PM
If your host never agreed to be your guest, always insisted that he host but also expected to control what his guests were doing would he really be much of a host?

Yes, that's what I'm getting at.

If he is taking on the responsibilities of a host, there are certain obligations that go with that. Such as making sure your guests do not feel uncomfortable in any way regarding a perceived need to "pitch in" or even to be the host of him in his turn. And "picking your battles" regarding what you will insist upon regarding behavior, especially random unfortunate bodily function behavior, of your guests.

If he is not taking on the responsibilities of a host, then he really is putting his passengers in a difficult situation because then they feel uncomfortable, like "freeloaders", but they have no way to pay him back and make things even again.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: WhiteTigerCub on August 09, 2010, 03:11:47 PM
Sleeping does not equal compensation for gas and wear and tear of a vehicle and IMHO really has nothing to do with the expectation that the driver is 'hosting' the event just because he/she offers their vehicle and driving skills.

*snickers at the thought*  If we equate the driver to being a host of the trip because he/she is paying for all the gas, then he/she should anticipate the riders in the car will be tired after a long day of hiking and should be required to provide pillows, blankets, eats and drinks for the car ride home.

Polite jania would find a way to thank the driver for driving to and from the event, either in the way of monetary compesnsation or doing some sort of favor in appreciation. I hardly think just staying awake in the vehicle during the drive shows any level of gratitude.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: whatsanenigma on August 09, 2010, 03:13:26 PM
Polite jania would find a way to thank the driver for driving to and from the event, either in the way of monetary compesnsation or doing some sort of favor in appreciation. I hardly think just staying awake in the vehicle during the drive shows any level of gratitude.

Well, yes, I would agree with that. A proper "thank you" goes a long way in many situations.

But when the driver has clearly refused to accept money, then it's rude, I think, to insist he take it.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: Sharnita on August 09, 2010, 03:17:07 PM
Polite jania would find a way to thank the driver for driving to and from the event, either in the way of monetary compesnsation or doing some sort of favor in appreciation. I hardly think just staying awake in the vehicle during the drive shows any level of gratitude.

Well, yes, I would agree with that. A proper "thank you" goes a long way in many situations.

But when the driver has clearly refused to accept money, then it's rude, I think, to insist he take it.

And how many times do you do that?  if you offer every time and he insists he doesn't want money, he wants to drive, etc.  do you have the same discussion when he insists on driving the 8th time if your money has been rejected 7 times?  Do you trick him into taking money or a favor?
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: JoieGirl7 on August 09, 2010, 03:21:32 PM
I see tht not as people freeloading but of people being forced into indebtedness.

If we consider him to be the "host" in that situation, though, I don't see there is indebtedness.

If we attend a party at someone's house we do not consider ourselves freeloaders because we freely partake of the offered hospitality even though we brought no food or drinks or games or whatever ourselves.

Of course, if we see this as more a host/guest situation, the obligations of the "host" change, though, IMHO.

If your host never agreed to be your guest, always insisted that he host but also expected to control what his guests were doing would he really be much of a host?

I don't view him as a "host."  I think its kind of rude to co-opt a group activity as your own party, so to speak.
 
He is just a member of the group.  If he truly wants to sacrifice for the group and drive all the time without gas money or compensation, he shouldn't also get special status where he doesn't have to make compromises.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: whatsanenigma on August 09, 2010, 03:22:03 PM
*snickers at the thought*  If we equate the driver to being a host of the trip because he/she is paying for all the gas, then he/she should anticipate the riders in the car will be tired after a long day of hiking and should be required to provide pillows, blankets, eats and drinks for the car ride home.

And I don't think anyone has ever said that the host of a party should anticipate any and all possible needs of guests and be prepared to accomodate them.

Although yes, I would think that it would be nice if a driver realized that people will likely be tired after a hike, and at the very least didn't set up the expectation that they would not sleep.

My point is, someone freely offering hospitality (in this case, by insisting on driving and by refusing money from other passengers) is doing it because being nice to others, hosting them, gives him pleasure and satisfaction. To be a host means that you give no expectation of getting anything in return.

Even if you really do, because politeness says that this is proper on the part of your guests. If the driver of the car is the host in this case, then yes, a nice "thank you" of some kind is in order from his passengers. A nice card, maybe. And he'd be well within his rights if he came to a board like this and expressed that he was frustrated, if his passengers never thanked him in any way.

We don't send invitations to our own wedding out with a note that says "you better RSVP properly by the given date and you better not add any extra people or you are a thoughtless social misfit and I will call and scream at you" although yes, we do expect our guests to respond properly by the due date and not add extra people.

And by the same token we do not include a note in our gift to an HC that says "you better send me a handwritten thank you note that specifically mentions this gift and what you're going to do with it even if you hate it and are just going to stick it in the garage and hope the next flood ruins it, or else..." No, we don't do that, though we do expect some kind of thank you note, hopefully a proper one.

That's more what I'm getting at.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: whatsanenigma on August 09, 2010, 03:25:14 PM

He is just a member of the group.  If he truly wants to sacrifice for the group and drive all the time without gas money or compensation, he shouldn't also get special status where he doesn't have to make compromises.


Which is why I say he is like a host, because a host makes many compromises. A good host, anyway.

In this case, the driver is trying to have it both ways, it seems to me, and if you're really going to drive all the way with no  money given to you, then yes that's a sacrifice, and to me he is under the obligation of a host not to make unreasonable demands, and to overlook small things that don't go exactly as he planned.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: Sharnita on August 09, 2010, 03:26:48 PM
but those examples tend to be reciprocal.  the host at the wedding is presumably a guest at others' weddings.  if they had a policy that they never attended anybody else's wedding/party/dinner/event then I wouldn't assume that being nice gave them pleasure, I'd probably suspect that being in control gave them pleasure.
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: whatsanenigma on August 09, 2010, 03:30:22 PM
but those examples tend to be reciprocal.  the host at the wedding is presumably a guest at others' weddings.  if they had a policy that they never attended anybody else's wedding/party/dinner/event then I wouldn't assume that being nice gave them pleasure, I'd probably suspect that being in control gave them pleasure.

That is a good point and of course it's entirely possible that in this case, it's just the being in control that gave this driver pleasure.

It's impossible to tell at this distance, I suppose.

But maybe what I am trying to say is that it could be interpreted as evidence that it's just the being in control that gave him pleasure, if he wanted to take on the good parts of being a host (having more control over an event) without the bad parts (an obligation to be gracious to guests and at the very least, not point out when they make a social misstep or do something not exactly as you had planned).
Title: Re: Rude to sleep in car?
Post by: WhiteTigerCub on August 09, 2010, 03:33:19 PM
I don't view him as a "host."  I think its kind of rude to co-opt a group activity as your own party, so to speak.
 
He is just a member of the group.  
I agree 100% with this. :)

I may have said it poorly, but I do not see the driver as a host unless they planned/paid for the entire event themselves.