Etiquette Hell

Forum Administration => Forum Announcements => Topic started by: Lisbeth on August 27, 2010, 02:21:23 PM

Title: "I'm amazed/would you really do that?"
Post by: Lisbeth on August 27, 2010, 02:21:23 PM
I've seen people respond this way in threads to proposed courses of action that they disagree with.

I'm wondering if etiquette and this forum really support this-yes, the "amazed" person has the right to feel as they do, but so does the person who says that they will take that course of action, and it can come across as really snarky, even if that's not what was intended by the "amazed" poster.  I don't think a person who says that they would do something would say so if that wasn't the case.
Title: Re: "I'm amazed/would you really do that?"
Post by: AprilRenee on August 27, 2010, 02:23:50 PM
I dislike it to honestly. I don't know if it's rude but it really comes off as disapproval of the poster(s) they disagree with.
Title: Re: "I'm amazed/would you really do that?"
Post by: DangerMouth on August 27, 2010, 02:42:16 PM
I've both done this, and responded to this.

While I really think it's it's OK to say "wow, I am absolutely gobsmacked by that attitude" I do think that just substituting an "I disagree, and here's why..." works fine in most cases.

Except, there are a few things that I really am gobsmacked about. As with everything else, I'll go with forum concensus on this issue.
Title: Re: "I'm amazed/would you really do that?"
Post by: supernova on August 27, 2010, 02:58:20 PM
The trouble is that tone is so hard to convey by text alone. 

When a friend tells me something, and I say, "Really?"  I am expressing amazement, shock, sympathy.  When I say this, it comes across the way I mean it.  But I'm almost afraid, anymore, to type it.  Especially when it's so often seen as snarky.

I think there's a sort of reverse Occam's Razor in effect:  if it's possible to read something as snarky, some folks will (and no, I don't mean here specifically; I mean forums in general). 

I think it's very possible that when a person expresses amazement, that they simply are amazed. When I see the word "Really?" I read it kind of like this:

Me: "Wow, people in Ruritania really eat grilled parsnips? Amazing!" 
Politia:  "Yeah, Ruritania is really cool, and I was surprised how good grilled parsnips were!"

And not this:

Me: "Wow, people in Ruritania really eat grilled parsnips? Amazing!" 
Rudine:  "Saphie, how dare you say that?  Politia LIVES in Ruritania, she should know! And as a fellow Ruritanian, I'm offended by your attitude."

The latter exchange would leave me scratching my head, trying to figure out what I missed.

The former exchange would have me fishing for a recipe.  ;)
Title: Re: "I'm amazed/would you really do that?"
Post by: Lisbeth on August 27, 2010, 03:02:34 PM
Well, I often see this when someone suggests cutting off a relationship or going to the authorities, as in: "Would you really call the police?" or "I'm amazed people are suggesting that the OP cut him off."  So in those circumstances, it does sound rather judgmental that someone made these suggestions.
Title: Re: "I'm amazed/would you really do that?"
Post by: MaggieB on August 27, 2010, 03:31:00 PM
I agree that it can be rude, but I think they can also be valid questions in some circumstances.  Sometimes the advice on this forum (any forum, I'm sure) can seem dramatically over the top for the OP's situation.  And I think that's natural because we're all coming from different places with different backgrounds, family relationships, boundaries, triggers, etc. 

Here's an example of what I mean (not based on any particular thread that I can remember):

OP:  I'm so upset today.  Last night my mom called and said that she's concerned that my son isn't reading yet.  According to his doctor/teacher/the books I've read he seems to be developing at a normal rate, but that's not good enough for my mom.  I don't want to let her babysit anymore.  What can I say?

PP1: Oh no!  Anyone who told me to ignore my doctor and my son's teacher with regards to his development so that she could have a perfect precocious little grandson would never see my son or me again!

PP2:  I would be so angry!  Please never leave this woman alone with your son.  Who knows what she will do.  I bet she'll take him to a reading tutor behind your back, undermining everything he's learned in school.

PP3:  I'm really surprised by the suggestions that the OP's mom is somehow unhappy with her grandson or that she would do anything behind the OP's back if they were left alone.  Would you really cut off your relationship with your own mother because she expressed concern about your kid?

Now, we don't know what kind of family dynamic the previous three posters have.  We don't know what their own mothers are like or what other "emotional baggage" they are bringing to their responses.  We don't know if PP1 has a toxic mother she had to cut off after comments like the one in the OP started damaging her family.  Maybe PP3 has a wonderful mother who was a teacher and those questions were part of normal conversation.  If something seems really over the top, it is fair to say that and ask for some clarification.  Of course that should be done as politely as possible. 

I think the "I'm shocked that people on an etiquette site would really advocate..." bothers me more than "is that really how you would handle this if it were happening to you?"  I think the later is valid if you are trying to understand where another poster is coming from.  The former usually just comes off as really "holier than thou."
Title: Re: "I'm amazed/would you really do that?"
Post by: Auntie Mame on August 27, 2010, 04:02:31 PM
I think people's past histories also come into play.

For example:  I am often quick to say "Cut him/her off" at the first sign someone is pulling a PA victim/martyr/emotional vampire act.  It sounds pretty cold callous unless you know the back story of my Mother and the years of emotional blackmail, sewage and manipulation she put me through.  I know people like that are never satisfied, they will take and take and take and take until you cut them off.

So from my perspective, I am not being harsh I am trying to warn people and save them from heartache.   So when people ask "Wow, you'd really cut someone off for this?" Yes I would, because I know how exhausting people like that can be.
Title: Re: "I'm amazed/would you really do that?"
Post by: MaggieB on August 27, 2010, 04:20:51 PM
I think people's past histories also come into play.

For example:  I am often quick to say "Cut him/her off" at the first sign someone is pulling a PA victim/martyr/emotional vampire act.  It sounds pretty cold callous unless you know the back story of my Mother and the years of emotional blackmail, sewage and manipulation she put me through.  I know people like that are never satisfied, they will take and take and take and take until you cut them off.

So from my perspective, I am not being harsh I am trying to warn people and save them from heartache.   So when people ask "Wow, you'd really cut someone off for this?" Yes I would, because I know how exhausting people like that can be.

I think we all do this to some extent.

You say that you are "often quick to say "cut him/her off" at the first sign someone is pulling a PA victim/martyr/emotional vampire act."  But what if that "first sign" comes ten years into an otherwise healthy relationship?  Your advice would probably seem callous, and I think it would be reasonable for another poster to as if that is really what you think the OP should do.  Of course you standing by your advice may get the OP to really think about whether she is upset about an isolated incident or an increasing pattern of behavior, etc.

So again, I do think it's a fair question if asked genuinely with the intent to better understand the advice. 

(Littlepixie, I hope this doesn't come across as picking on you at all.  I was just using your post to expand on my earlier point.  One of the reasons I love EHell is that there are so many different perspectives and we all see different angles of the same problems.)
Title: Re: "I'm amazed/would you really do that?"
Post by: Auntie Mame on August 27, 2010, 04:25:00 PM
Maggie, I don't feel picked on at all :)  In fact I know I am sometimes too quick to say that, because of my history.  We all have hot button issues.  There are things that wouldn't phase me at all that would make another person so angry they could barely speak.

Which is why I think "Would you really do that?" is good question because it gives the other person to say say "Yes and this why".  It could also work in reverse.  Using myself as an example, the question might make me step back and examine the situation with less emotion and more logic.
Title: Re: "I'm amazed/would you really do that?"
Post by: DangerMouth on August 27, 2010, 04:45:46 PM
Well, I often see this when someone suggests cutting off a rel@tionship or going to the authorities, as in: "Would you really call the police?" or "I'm amazed people are suggesting that the OP cut him off."  So in those circumstances, it does sound rather judgmental that someone made these suggestions.

I think what people are often responding to is what they perceive as an OTT response:

Unsupervised kid at pool: CALL THE COPS!
Kid left too long at your house after playdate: CALL CPS!
Mom expressed doubts about my SO: CUT HER OFF!
Neighbor's dog barking: CALL THE COPS!
MIL made a suggestion about parenting: CUT HER OFF!

When a poster jumps right to worst case scenarios or the most extreme response, sometimes you get the 'really?/I'm amazed" reactions. And I understand that. Sometimes I am amazed at the suggestions PP's are making. And sometimes I want to respond with all the vehemence of the post I'm responding to.

But being on this board is teaching me better ways to respond. I'm really liking the fact that a forum can not only be educational, but a kind of proving ground. Learning how to state my case calmly (or walk away) when I have nothing invested is good practice for those IRL times when I actually am emotionally involved.

JMO 8)
Title: Re: "I'm amazed/would you really do that?"
Post by: SiotehCat on August 27, 2010, 04:56:59 PM
I'm glad someone posted about this. I received multiple responses like this recently to a post I made and I had no idea how to respond. How does one respond?
Title: Re: "I'm amazed/would you really do that?"
Post by: kareng57 on August 27, 2010, 07:53:56 PM
Maggie, I don't feel picked on at all :)  In fact I know I am sometimes too quick to say that, because of my history.  We all have hot button issues.  There are things that wouldn't phase me at all that would make another person so angry they could barely speak.

Which is why I think "Would you really do that?" is good question because it gives the other person to say say "Yes and this why".  It could also work in reverse.  Using myself as an example, the question might make me step back and examine the situation with less emotion and more logic.


But, I think this is why sometimes we need to take a deep breath (or, a Scritzy coke-break  :) before posting.  We all need to realize that our own hot-button issues aren't always other peoples'.  Naturally, this is simply a forum - anyone can take or leave any advice given here.  However, some people are more susceptible than others.  Hypothetically - if I had a grandchild who, at 10 years old, did not seem to be reading well at all and the parents seemed unconcerned, I don't think that I'd be out of line if I gently brought up the issue.  If they then did the cut-direct because it was "none of my business" and someone on the Net told them this was the best way to handle it - well, I'd have no choice but to abide with their decision but I'd be terribly hurt.
Title: Re: "I'm amazed/would you really do that?"
Post by: Lisbeth on August 27, 2010, 10:09:19 PM
Well, I often see this when someone suggests cutting off a rel@tionship or going to the authorities, as in: "Would you really call the police?" or "I'm amazed people are suggesting that the OP cut him off."  So in those circumstances, it does sound rather judgmental that someone made these suggestions.

I think what people are often responding to is what they perceive as an OTT response:

Unsupervised kid at pool: CALL THE COPS!
Kid left too long at your house after playdate: CALL CPS!
Mom expressed doubts about my SO: CUT HER OFF!
Neighbor's dog barking: CALL THE COPS!
MIL made a suggestion about parenting: CUT HER OFF!

When a poster jumps right to worst case scenarios or the most extreme response, sometimes you get the 'really?/I'm amazed" reactions. And I understand that. Sometimes I am amazed at the suggestions PP's are making. And sometimes I want to respond with all the vehemence of the post I'm responding to.

But being on this board is teaching me better ways to respond. I'm really liking the fact that a forum can not only be educational, but a kind of proving ground. Learning how to state my case calmly (or walk away) when I have nothing invested is good practice for those IRL times when I actually am emotionally involved.

JMO 8)

Well, I often see this when someone suggests cutting off a rel@tionship or going to the authorities, as in: "Would you really call the police?" or "I'm amazed people are suggesting that the OP cut him off."  So in those circumstances, it does sound rather judgmental that someone made these suggestions.

I think what people are often responding to is what they perceive as an OTT response:

Unsupervised kid at pool: CALL THE COPS!
Kid left too long at your house after playdate: CALL CPS!
Mom expressed doubts about my SO: CUT HER OFF!
Neighbor's dog barking: CALL THE COPS!
MIL made a suggestion about parenting: CUT HER OFF!

When a poster jumps right to worst case scenarios or the most extreme response, sometimes you get the 'really?/I'm amazed" reactions. And I understand that. Sometimes I am amazed at the suggestions PP's are making. And sometimes I want to respond with all the vehemence of the post I'm responding to.

But being on this board is teaching me better ways to respond. I'm really liking the fact that a forum can not only be educational, but a kind of proving ground. Learning how to state my case calmly (or walk away) when I have nothing invested is good practice for those IRL times when I actually am emotionally involved.

JMO 8)


But just because it's over-the-top to one poster doesn't mean that it's the case generally.  That's why sometimes coming out with "I'm amazed anyone would suggest a cutoff," etc. adds fuel to the fire, so to speak. 

I agree that there needs to be a better way to handle such situations-and I think kareng57 is right, that it may be a knee-jerk reaction and we sometimes need to take a time-out before responding, because we could make a situation worse without intending to.
Title: Re: "I'm amazed/would you really do that?"
Post by: shhh its me on August 27, 2010, 10:15:24 PM
Maggie, I don't feel picked on at all :)  In fact I know I am sometimes too quick to say that, because of my history.  We all have hot button issues.  There are things that wouldn't phase me at all that would make another person so angry they could barely speak.

Which is why I think "Would you really do that?" is good question because it gives the other person to say say "Yes and this why".  It could also work in reverse.  Using myself as an example, the question might make me step back and examine the situation with less emotion and more logic.


But, I think this is why sometimes we need to take a deep breath (or, a Scritzy coke-break  :) before posting.  We all need to realize that our own hot-button issues aren't always other peoples'.  Naturally, this is simply a forum - anyone can take or leave any advice given here.  However, some people are more susceptible than others.  Hypothetically - if I had a grandchild who, at 10 years old, did not seem to be reading well at all and the parents seemed unconcerned, I don't think that I'd be out of line if I gently brought up the issue.  If they then did the cut-direct because it was "none of my business" and someone on the Net told them this was the best way to handle it - well, I'd have no choice but to abide with their decision but I'd be terribly hurt.
No you could totally call CPS  ....I'm sorry that was bad


I think "I'm amazed" is a blunt/aggressive version of "that advise seem extreme".  I can see how some posters are amazed when advice seems so OTT or out of left field , but I think "I'm amazed " just seems to be a "gas on the fire" phrase not a "I disagree let us discuss" phrase.

Not thinking about the recent thread but there have been some threads that just went way sideways "how I can I talk to my husband about not being late for dinner"  quickly becomes "he doesn't respect you." "he doesn't love you" "He's obviously having an affair and you should leave him yesterday" "he's abusive you should change the locks and get an attack dog" "oh my gosh protect yourself call the police before he gets home"

No not really yes I can remember a few threads that progressed from minor(at least the OP felt it was minor) issue to change the locks,leave him,call the cop and even the OP can't derail the CRUD MONKEYS! LEAVE HIM train.  







Title: Re: "I'm amazed/would you really do that?"
Post by: Mahdoumi on August 29, 2010, 12:22:57 PM
This post had me laughing.  While the points are true, seeing a long thread's progression condensed into a paragraph makes the situation seem comical.  How right you are, Mrs. Martin!
Title: Re: "I'm amazed/would you really do that?"
Post by: supernova on August 29, 2010, 01:50:52 PM
Actually, one of the things that counselors advise is to phrase things in terms of "I feel" statements -- this is supposed to be seen as non-aggressive and non-accusatory.

"I'm a little surprised you'd think that I'd be okay with baseball-game tickets on our anniversary," is a very, very mild thing to say, for example.  ;)

I know I'm disagreeing with the majority here, but I think that "I'm rather amazed by the strong reactions I'm getting to X post" is a very appropriate thing to say on an etiquette board, especially when you are genuinely feeling surprised.

I'd love to hear suggestions of a better way to phrase this statement.  Genuinely asking, not being snarky, honest.  :)

     - saphie
Title: Re: "I'm amazed/would you really do that?"
Post by: Lisbeth on August 29, 2010, 02:23:05 PM
Actually, one of the things that counselors advise is to phrase things in terms of "I feel" statements -- this is supposed to be seen as non-aggressive and non-accusatory.

"I'm a little surprised you'd think that I'd be okay with baseball-game tickets on our anniversary," is a very, very mild thing to say, for example.  ;)

I know I'm disagreeing with the majority here, but I think that "I'm rather amazed by the strong reactions I'm getting to X post" is a very appropriate thing to say on an etiquette board, especially when you are genuinely feeling surprised.

I'd love to hear suggestions of a better way to phrase this statement.  Genuinely asking, not being snarky, honest.  :)

     - saphie

Rather than saying "I'm amazed" or questioning the other person with "You would really do that?" I think saying something like "That seems extreme" is probably more in tune with etiquette.  Also, although counselors might suggest saying "I feel, etc.", mentioning how astounded one is simply because one disagrees with someone else probably does add fuel to a fire, which is something we really do want to avoid doing here in the Ehell forum.
Title: Re: "I'm amazed/would you really do that?"
Post by: HollysCats on August 29, 2010, 03:14:23 PM
I'm amazed  ;) that everyone is focused on the use of this phrase to refer to other posters' advice.  I thought this thread would be about using "I'm amazed / would you really?" in threads in which opinions are divided about whether something is polite (or otherwise okay) or not.  Like this:

Quote
I'm amazed -- you really (take your shoes off / leave your shoes on) in other people's houses?  And you don't think that's rude?  Really?

I sometimes see that kind of thing in threads after several people have posted that they do whatever this "amazing" thing is, and I think that expressing disbelief at that point is a bit ingenuous, if not outright rude.
Title: Re: "I'm amazed/would you really do that?"
Post by: Lisbeth on August 29, 2010, 03:26:01 PM
I'm amazed  ;) that everyone is focused on the use of this phrase to refer to other posters' advice.  I thought this thread would be about using "I'm amazed / would you really?" in threads in which opinions are divided about whether something is polite (or otherwise okay) or not.  Like this:

Quote
I'm amazed -- you really (take your shoes off / leave your shoes on) in other people's houses?  And you don't think that's rude?  Really?

I sometimes see that kind of thing in threads after several people have posted that they do whatever this "amazing" thing is, and I think that expressing disbelief at that point is a bit ingenuous, if not outright rude.


Well, these two phrases can come up in different respects, so I was wondering about the politeness of the ways they get used in this forum.

I agree that expressing disbelief in the manner of your quote comes off pretty rudely and in an inflammatory way.  When it comes to the advice we offer each other, it does seem to happen more often in circumstances where a poster has suggested going to the police, offering the cut direct, breaking off a relationship, or other situations that seem to be more extreme than we might normally encounter.
Title: Re: "I'm amazed/would you really do that?"
Post by: Surianne on August 31, 2010, 04:25:26 PM
I'm amazed  ;) that everyone is focused on the use of this phrase to refer to other posters' advice.  I thought this thread would be about using "I'm amazed / would you really?" in threads in which opinions are divided about whether something is polite (or otherwise okay) or not.  Like this:

Quote
I'm amazed -- you really (take your shoes off / leave your shoes on) in other people's houses?  And you don't think that's rude?  Really?

I sometimes see that kind of thing in threads after several people have posted that they do whatever this "amazing" thing is, and I think that expressing disbelief at that point is a bit ingenuous, if not outright rude.


I absolutely hate this and do find it really rude.  If I slip up and use this phrasing, please, please slap me down (or PM me kindly if you prefer  ;D ).
Title: Re: "I'm amazed/would you really do that?"
Post by: AprilRenee on August 31, 2010, 05:40:18 PM
Actually, one of the things that counselors advise is to phrase things in terms of "I feel" statements -- this is supposed to be seen as non-aggressive and non-accusatory.

"I'm a little surprised you'd think that I'd be okay with baseball-game tickets on our anniversary," is a very, very mild thing to say, for example.  ;)

I know I'm disagreeing with the majority here, but I think that "I'm rather amazed by the strong reactions I'm getting to X post" is a very appropriate thing to say on an etiquette board, especially when you are genuinely feeling surprised.

I'd love to hear suggestions of a better way to phrase this statement.  Genuinely asking, not being snarky, honest.  :)

     - saphie
I actiually don't have an issue with your phrasing. I think, for me, it becomes an annoyance when it's focusing on something that you (general) doesn't agree with.

So a "I;m amazed by the strong feelings here" becomes "I'm amazed anyone could feel that way/do that" it's not "Amazing" that someone believes differently.

My issue with it is when it implies negative judgement on someone for having a different thought or who would take different actions.
Title: Re: "I'm amazed/would you really do that?"
Post by: Surianne on August 31, 2010, 10:11:12 PM
Yeah, saying something like "I was suprised at how quickly this thread progressed!" or "I'm amazed there are so many different sides to this issue" are both find and very different from "Oh really, you think X is okay?  I'm shocked that someone on an etiquette board would actually believe something so horrendous.  Are you actually telling me you believe that, for real?  Because I find that extraordinarily surprising.  No offense or anything, of course, it just amazing me that someone over the age of 5 would actually believe that.  That's not a judgement, just an expression of disbelief."
Title: Re: "I'm amazed/would you really do that?"
Post by: Granny Takes a Trip on September 01, 2010, 02:30:46 AM


I'm afraid I'm unapologetic in using this term. It doesn't mean the same as 'I disagree'. It means what it says it means, that I am amazed. If it is used too often, I suppose it could get old. But to stop people saying it would come far too close to dictating how we post, for my liking.
Title: Re: "I'm amazed/would you really do that?"
Post by: Flora Louise on September 01, 2010, 11:02:31 AM
Personally, the one that gets me are the posters who start by posting "WOW!" then proceed to just how wrong a previous poster is.



Title: Re: "I'm amazed/would you really do that?"
Post by: Lisbeth on September 01, 2010, 09:37:00 PM


I'm afraid I'm unapologetic in using this term. It doesn't mean the same as 'I disagree'. It means what it says it means, that I am amazed. If it is used too often, I suppose it could get old. But to stop people saying it would come far too close to dictating how we post, for my liking.

Well, here's the thing:  Many of us probably have trucker's mouths and discuss things like politics, religion, and other things that are against the Ehell rules and make jokes that would get us banned if we repeat them here.  That's "shaping posts" too.

Given that we do have to shape our posts according to the rules, we might have to do the same with "I'm amazed, etc." and go back and edit that out before we click the Post or Save buttons.  Sometimes it might be a thing best not expressed.
Title: Re: "I'm amazed/would you really do that?"
Post by: Hanna on September 01, 2010, 09:58:20 PM
I agree with the folks that do not think it is rude or offensive.
I believe it is part of normal conversation.
Title: Re: "I'm amazed/would you really do that?"
Post by: Lisbeth on September 01, 2010, 09:59:11 PM
I agree with the folks that do not think it is rude or offensive.
I believe it is part of normal conversation.

I think it depends on how it's being used.  It can come off as snarky.
Title: Re: "I'm amazed/would you really do that?"
Post by: Hanna on September 01, 2010, 10:02:20 PM
I think people can find offensive wherever they look.
It would be a shame to try and create rules at that level of detail.
I trust the moderators to sort it out.

Title: Re: "I'm amazed/would you really do that?"
Post by: Lisbeth on September 01, 2010, 10:17:49 PM
I think people can find offensive wherever they look.
It would be a shame to try and create rules at that level of detail.
I trust the moderators to sort it out.

The moderators are not quick to get back to posters-and yes, while people can find offense wherever they look, these phrases can be used in ways that are inherently offensive.  I think rules are necessary to make sure that they are not used to be snarky rather than being dismissive about the impact they can have-this forum has split before and I'd hate to see that happen again because someone got too dismissive over someone else's feelings and shrugged it off as "people can find offense wherever they look."
Title: Re: "I'm amazed/would you really do that?"
Post by: evely28 on September 01, 2010, 11:05:45 PM
It's a phrase. Just about anything can potentially be snarky. I have been amazed at things I thought were clearcut only to find that there has been a split and it's not as clearcut as I thought. I love the dialog and the back and forth communication that goes on.

I think asking for clarification and giving the benefit of the doubt are more important than perhaps muzzling. Just because some words may be a bit "hot" or negative to you, doesn't make it true for others. If you want to take away amazed then what about flabbergasted, boggled......etc. These are all important words of communication.

It seems like you're trying to fix something that isn't broke. I know when I first came to this forum years ago I was a real newby at disagreeing with someone and the etiquette involved. The lesson I had to learn was disagreeing is not the same as disrespecting and keeping it respectful as I disagreed. We are so varied on this forum, with so many walks of life and the advice given runs the gamut. I see the most important benefit to be the different perspective's.
Title: Re: "I'm amazed/would you really do that?"
Post by: MDefarge on September 02, 2010, 12:38:02 AM
It's a phrase. Just about anything can potentially be snarky. I have been amazed at things I thought were clearcut only to find that there has been a split and it's not as clearcut as I thought. I love the dialog and the back and forth communication that goes on.

I think asking for clarification and giving the benefit of the doubt are more important than perhaps muzzling. Just because some words may be a bit "hot" or negative to you, doesn't make it true for others. If you want to take away amazed then what about flabbergasted, boggled......etc. These are all important words of communication.

It seems like you're trying to fix something that isn't broke. I know when I first came to this forum years ago I was a real newby at disagreeing with someone and the etiquette involved. The lesson I had to learn was disagreeing is not the same as disrespecting and keeping it respectful as I disagreed. We are so varied on this forum, with so many walks of life and the advice given runs the gamut. I see the most important benefit to be the different perspective's.

I couldn't agree more with this post....really( ;))

ETA - if you (general) think a poster is being snotty by using either phrase, its probably evident in the rest of their post if they are sincere or not.   I know I said "would you really do that" in a thread not that long ago when a poster said that in a particular situation they would call the police, something I honestly considered a really big over reaction based on what the OP had written.  So yeah, I was curious if that was something they would actually do, or if it was just hyperbole.
Title: Re: "I'm amazed/would you really do that?"
Post by: Granny Takes a Trip on September 02, 2010, 02:55:14 AM
It's a phrase. Just about anything can potentially be snarky. I have been amazed at things I thought were clearcut only to find that there has been a split and it's not as clearcut as I thought. I love the dialog and the back and forth communication that goes on.

I think asking for clarification and giving the benefit of the doubt are more important than perhaps muzzling. Just because some words may be a bit "hot" or negative to you, doesn't make it true for others. If you want to take away amazed then what about flabbergasted, boggled......etc. These are all important words of communication.

It seems like you're trying to fix something that isn't broke. I know when I first came to this forum years ago I was a real newby at disagreeing with someone and the etiquette involved. The lesson I had to learn was disagreeing is not the same as disrespecting and keeping it respectful as I disagreed. We are so varied on this forum, with so many walks of life and the advice given runs the gamut. I see the most important benefit to be the different perspective's.

I couldn't agree more with this post....really( ;))

ETA - if you (general) think a poster is being snotty by using either phrase, its probably evident in the rest of their post if they are sincere or not.   I know I said "would you really do that" in a thread not that long ago when a poster said that in a particular situation they would call the police, something I honestly considered a really big over reaction based on what the OP had written.  So yeah, I was curious if that was something they would actually do, or if it was just hyperbole.

I agree with both of you. Yes, the phrase can be used snarkily, but it is inappropriate to react badly to the phrase itself, and ignore the context.
Title: Re: "I'm amazed/would you really do that?"
Post by: Hanna on September 02, 2010, 04:00:58 PM
I think people can find offensive wherever they look.
It would be a shame to try and create rules at that level of detail.
I trust the moderators to sort it out.

The moderators are not quick to get back to posters-and yes, while people can find offense wherever they look, these phrases can be used in ways that are inherently offensive.  I think rules are necessary to make sure that they are not used to be snarky rather than being dismissive about the impact they can have-this forum has split before and I'd hate to see that happen again because someone got too dismissive over someone else's feelings and shrugged it off as "people can find offense wherever they look."
That's not been my experience with moderation here.  Sure, they don't always do what each of us wants, but I find them fairly balanced and reasonable, and really quite on the ball.
Overly draconian rules about what words people can use are very likely to destroy the fabric of any forum.

I don't think a forum split is likely to happen because one person is feeling another poster was overly dismissive of their feelings.

Honestly, I'm confused about the purpose of this thread.
Title: Re: "I'm amazed/would you really do that?"
Post by: Lisbeth on September 02, 2010, 09:00:01 PM
I think people can find offensive wherever they look.
It would be a shame to try and create rules at that level of detail.
I trust the moderators to sort it out.

The moderators are not quick to get back to posters-and yes, while people can find offense wherever they look, these phrases can be used in ways that are inherently offensive.  I think rules are necessary to make sure that they are not used to be snarky rather than being dismissive about the impact they can have-this forum has split before and I'd hate to see that happen again because someone got too dismissive over someone else's feelings and shrugged it off as "people can find offense wherever they look."
That's not been my experience with moderation here.  Sure, they don't always do what each of us wants, but I find them fairly balanced and reasonable, and really quite on the ball.
Overly draconian rules about what words people can use are very likely to destroy the fabric of any forum.

I don't think a forum split is likely to happen because one person is feeling another poster was overly dismissive of their feelings.

Honestly, I'm confused about the purpose of this thread.

The purpose of this thread is stated in the OP.  I'm sorry if it wasn't clear enough, but it is to debate the issue of whether or not etiquette and this forum condone the use of these phrases as you are using them.
Title: Re: "I'm amazed/would you really do that?"
Post by: Giggity on September 02, 2010, 09:05:56 PM
The moderators are not quick to get back to posters

I dunno about that ... I reported the weird pr0n thread about 7 this morning, and it was gone in seconds.  ;D
Title: Re: "I'm amazed/would you really do that?"
Post by: Peggy Gus on September 02, 2010, 09:44:18 PM
The moderators are not quick to get back to posters

I dunno about that ... I reported the weird pr0n thread about 7 this morning, and it was gone in seconds.  ;D

It actually took about 5 min, when I first saw it had 8 reads, and right about the time it was removed I think I saw 89 reads.  ;D
Title: Re: "I'm amazed/would you really do that?"
Post by: shhh its me on September 03, 2010, 12:03:44 AM
The moderators are not quick to get back to posters

I dunno about that ... I reported the weird pr0n thread about 7 this morning, and it was gone in seconds.  ;D

It actually took about 5 min, when I first saw it had 8 reads, and right about the time it was removed I think I saw 89 reads.  ;D

I am amazed .....................




I slept through a p0rn thread *faceplam*

In general I don't think it's rude "I'm amazed " not p0rn threads, I do think it on the overly combative side of productive debate.   It can be when a few posters say " I buy widgets" are answered with  " I am shocked and amazed you buy widgets . Widgets are evil things made by evil people for evil people"  .  "I don't think widgets are an appropriate topic" or "No, widgets are unacceptable by etiquette" would be acceptable to me, anyone else?
Title: Re: "I'm amazed/would you really do that?"
Post by: Lisbeth on September 03, 2010, 06:21:37 AM
The moderators are not quick to get back to posters

I dunno about that ... I reported the weird pr0n thread about 7 this morning, and it was gone in seconds.  ;D

It actually took about 5 min, when I first saw it had 8 reads, and right about the time it was removed I think I saw 89 reads.  ;D

The moderators will respond to those kinds of matters, and they do it by shutting down threads without explanation.

When it comes to matters that are more subtle, I think they are much slower to respond and sometimes don't do it at all.  They have expressed the preference that the forum be self-policing, and are not quick to step in about things like the question in the OP.
Title: Re: "I'm amazed/would you really do that?"
Post by: MDefarge on September 03, 2010, 07:26:29 AM
The moderators are not quick to get back to posters

I dunno about that ... I reported the weird pr0n thread about 7 this morning, and it was gone in seconds.  ;D

It actually took about 5 min, when I first saw it had 8 reads, and right about the time it was removed I think I saw 89 reads.  ;D

The moderators will respond to those kinds of matters, and they do it by shutting down threads without explanation.

When it comes to matters that are more subtle, I think they are much slower to respond and sometimes don't do it at all.  They have expressed the preference that the forum be self-policing, and are not quick to step in about things like the question in the OP.

That tells me they don't think its that big of a deal then.
Title: Re: "I'm amazed/would you really do that?"
Post by: NOVA Lady on September 03, 2010, 08:06:12 AM
Unless there is something else in the context of a post that seems like the poster is being dismissive, snarky or whatever...I think its often a valid question.

Sometimes people on this board give advice or make a suggestion that has me sitting there gap mouthed scratching my head. I do not thin its wrong to express that feeling. If someone can express agreement, and someone else can express disagreement, why can someone not express surprise/shock/etc?

I can see where it would be rude:

OP: Do I need to say please after asking for something?
P: I CANNOT believe someone would think you wouldn't!!! Are you serious??? I am dumbfounded.

That to me is rude, and I think the right thing to do is to report it, as it comes off as a personal attack.

However this type of thing:

OP: My mom stays too long when visiting my new baby, how should I handle this?
P: You should cut her off right now. No more contact, she does not deserve to see her grandchild. She is toxic!!!
PP: Are you serious? I am amazed at that sentiment. I could never imagining cutting off your own mother for this!

I don't think thats rude. I think thats a legitimate reaction to an OTT suggestion.


The debate here in this thread makes it obvious that there is no agreement on whether this is rude or not, so I don't see how self-policing comes in here. I am not going to police something I don't think is rude, and honestly would resent someone else trying to police something on which there is much disagreement on the rudeness factor.

I think we all have peeves on the board, and need to realize that we cannot make others conform to our posting preferences as long as they are within the rules.

I wholly disagree with you regarding the moderation of this board. I think it is fantastic, and in areas where it actually IS an issue (as opposed to something like this, which seems more like context and personal preference) they are very quick about acting. Its just that not everything one doesn't like about the board does require moderation,.....so if a response is expected for a non-rule issue on the board I am not sure that its top priority of even really needed.
Title: Re: "I'm amazed/would you really do that?"
Post by: Lisbeth on September 03, 2010, 09:14:11 AM
That's just it...moderators are often not quick to get back to posters, so in that interim, it's not clear if they are trying to decide if something needs to be dealt with, have other things going on in their lives that they are giving higher priority to, or have already decided that it's no big deal.

So, the question here is, Are responses like that rude, especially when there is some degree of blur about the use of these phrases.  Your second example could be perceived as very similar to the first, in fact with no difference, and there could even be a question about what positive contribution stating one is "amazed, etc." makes to the discussion.
Title: Re: "I'm amazed/would you really do that?"
Post by: NOVA Lady on September 03, 2010, 09:18:06 AM
That's just it...moderators are often not quick to get back to posters, so in that interim, it's not clear if they are trying to decide if something needs to be dealt with, have other things going on in their lives that they are giving higher priority to, or have already decided that it's no big deal.

So, the question here is, Are responses like that rude, especially when there is some degree of blur about the use of these phrases.  Your second example could be perceived as very similar to the first, in fact with no difference, and there could even be a question about what positive contribution stating one is "amazed, etc." makes to the discussion.

I think then you can send a message to a mod and wait for a reply.... if a reply never comes, I would take that as my answer.

As to the question in your second paragraph... no I do not think it is always rude. Like so many things, it can be rude but it is not automatically so. I also see a vast difference between my two examples...so perhaps this is the heart of the disagreement.

Are you suggesting that everyone stop using the phrase because you think it's rude?
Title: Re: "I'm amazed/would you really do that?"
Post by: Lisbeth on September 03, 2010, 09:21:21 AM
That's just it...moderators are often not quick to get back to posters, so in that interim, it's not clear if they are trying to decide if something needs to be dealt with, have other things going on in their lives that they are giving higher priority to, or have already decided that it's no big deal.

So, the question here is, Are responses like that rude, especially when there is some degree of blur about the use of these phrases.  Your second example could be perceived as very similar to the first, in fact with no difference, and there could even be a question about what positive contribution stating one is "amazed, etc." makes to the discussion.

I think then you can send a message to a mod and wait for a reply.... if a reply never comes, I would take that as my answer.

As to the question in your second paragraph... no I do not think it is always rude. Like so many things, it can be rude but it is not automatically so. I also see a vast difference between my two examples...so perhaps this is the heart of the disagreement.

Are you suggesting that everyone stop using the phrase because you think it's rude?

No, I'm not making that suggestion...just wondering about the use.  Sometimes it can seem self-righteous and rather b!tchy, other times not.
Title: Re: "I'm amazed/would you really do that?"
Post by: Hanna on September 03, 2010, 11:35:41 AM
I think people can find offensive wherever they look.
It would be a shame to try and create rules at that level of detail.
I trust the moderators to sort it out.

The moderators are not quick to get back to posters-and yes, while people can find offense wherever they look, these phrases can be used in ways that are inherently offensive.  I think rules are necessary to make sure that they are not used to be snarky rather than being dismissive about the impact they can have-this forum has split before and I'd hate to see that happen again because someone got too dismissive over someone else's feelings and shrugged it off as "people can find offense wherever they look."
That's not been my experience with moderation here.  Sure, they don't always do what each of us wants, but I find them fairly balanced and reasonable, and really quite on the ball.
Overly draconian rules about what words people can use are very likely to destroy the fabric of any forum.

I don't think a forum split is likely to happen because one person is feeling another poster was overly dismissive of their feelings.

Honestly, I'm confused about the purpose of this thread.

The purpose of this thread is stated in the OP.  I'm sorry if it wasn't clear enough, but it is to debate the issue of whether or not etiquette and this forum condone the use of these phrases as you are using them.
Me?
Title: Re: "I'm amazed/would you really do that?"
Post by: Hanna on September 03, 2010, 11:37:59 AM
That's just it...moderators are often not quick to get back to posters, so in that interim, it's not clear if they are trying to decide if something needs to be dealt with, have other things going on in their lives that they are giving higher priority to, or have already decided that it's no big deal.

So, the question here is, Are responses like that rude, especially when there is some degree of blur about the use of these phrases.  Your second example could be perceived as very similar to the first, in fact with no difference, and there could even be a question about what positive contribution stating one is "amazed, etc." makes to the discussion.

I think then you can send a message to a mod and wait for a reply.... if a reply never comes, I would take that as my answer.

As to the question in your second paragraph... no I do not think it is always rude. Like so many things, it can be rude but it is not automatically so. I also see a vast difference between my two examples...so perhaps this is the heart of the disagreement.

Are you suggesting that everyone stop using the phrase because you think it's rude?

No, I'm not making that suggestion...just wondering about the use.  Sometimes it can seem self-righteous and rather b!tchy, other times not.
So you want to police people posting in a way that you feel is uh, the word you used above to get around the filter?

I think the mods are ignoring reports of things that they don't feel are a problem.
If it bothers you that they don't agree with your assessment, that's unfortunate but it doesn't mean they are wrong.
Title: Re: "I'm amazed/would you really do that?"
Post by: DangerMouth on September 03, 2010, 12:04:09 PM
Seriously? ;D

It bothers me far more that every time there is a discussion about movie theatre etiquette, someone will invariably say "I just don't understand why people can't go a few hours without eating. I mean, goodness, it's not like you're starving ::)"

To me that's far more judgemental and dismissive. Yet you could argue the same thing, that it's just an opinion and everyone's entitled to them, and to post them.

Frankly, I think these things would better be posted on the 'little things that drive you up a wall' thread. Because I'm sure we all have our little quirks and opinions about the 'correct' way to post here, and when someone is being obviously rude, they are going to get called on it. I just don't think that questioning a poster is necessarily rude, certainly not the first time. If the same poster comes back three times saying, "really?, You'd really do that?" then it think it's time for a testy "I said it and I meant it."

Condider B*reeders. I know there have been problems in the past, but (I feel) this forum is long past needing that word to be filtered. No one here uses that term for actual irresponsible parents of the human variety any longer. We just don't talk that way. A combination of self-moderating and mods-moderating has changed the culture of this forum sufficiently. I'm sure other issues that bother any one of us will either work itself out in time, or you just have to accept that a majority don't share your opinion :)
Title: Re: "I'm amazed/would you really do that?"
Post by: Lisbeth on September 03, 2010, 02:42:12 PM
That's just it...moderators are often not quick to get back to posters, so in that interim, it's not clear if they are trying to decide if something needs to be dealt with, have other things going on in their lives that they are giving higher priority to, or have already decided that it's no big deal.

So, the question here is, Are responses like that rude, especially when there is some degree of blur about the use of these phrases.  Your second example could be perceived as very similar to the first, in fact with no difference, and there could even be a question about what positive contribution stating one is "amazed, etc." makes to the discussion.

I think then you can send a message to a mod and wait for a reply.... if a reply never comes, I would take that as my answer.

As to the question in your second paragraph... no I do not think it is always rude. Like so many things, it can be rude but it is not automatically so. I also see a vast difference between my two examples...so perhaps this is the heart of the disagreement.

Are you suggesting that everyone stop using the phrase because you think it's rude?

No, I'm not making that suggestion...just wondering about the use.  Sometimes it can seem self-righteous and rather b!tchy, other times not.
So you want to police people posting in a way that you feel is uh, the word you used above to get around the filter?

I think the mods are ignoring reports of things that they don't feel are a problem.
If it bothers you that they don't agree with your assessment, that's unfortunate but it doesn't mean they are wrong.


I think you overstate my opinion.
Title: Re: "I'm amazed/would you really do that?"
Post by: NOVA Lady on September 03, 2010, 02:53:15 PM
I think I might be confused on the purpose of this thread if not to regulate/change/modify the manner in which people are posting. (I'll also say I did not care for the use of the "B" word in your post either. Its not something I would say on an etiquette forum...but if the mods don't care I won't tell you not to use it! :) )
Title: Re: "I'm amazed/would you really do that?"
Post by: Lisbeth on September 03, 2010, 02:57:28 PM
I think I might be confused on the purpose of this thread if not to regulate/change/modify the manner in which people are posting. (I'll also say I did not care for the use of the "B" word in your post either. Its not something I would say on an etiquette forum...but if the mods don't care I won't tell you not to use it! :) )

Well, I apologize for that-it's not meant to describe any person so much as a very self-righteous, snide, and hostile perspective.

But that's how the use of these phrases sometimes comes across...so the point of this thread was to find out: 1) how etiquette itself views them and 2) how this forum views them.
Title: Re: "I'm amazed/would you really do that?"
Post by: DangerMouth on September 03, 2010, 03:04:27 PM
I think I might be confused on the purpose of this thread if not to regulate/change/modify the manner in which people are posting. (I'll also say I did not care for the use of the "B" word in your post either. Its not something I would say on an etiquette forum...but if the mods don't care I won't tell you not to use it! :) )

Well, I apologize for that-it's not meant to describe any person so much as a very self-righteous, snide, and hostile perspective.

But that's how the use of these phrases sometimes comes across...so the point of this thread was to find out: 1) how etiquette itself views them and 2) how this forum views them.

Well, had you posted this under "Life in General" instead of the administration area, it might be seen as something other than an attempt to police the forum (or at least to possibly gather support for doing so). Because it really does come across that way, posted where it is, KWIM? :)
Title: Re: "I'm amazed/would you really do that?"
Post by: Lisbeth on September 03, 2010, 03:07:45 PM
I think I might be confused on the purpose of this thread if not to regulate/change/modify the manner in which people are posting. (I'll also say I did not care for the use of the "B" word in your post either. Its not something I would say on an etiquette forum...but if the mods don't care I won't tell you not to use it! :) )

Well, I apologize for that-it's not meant to describe any person so much as a very self-righteous, snide, and hostile perspective.

But that's how the use of these phrases sometimes comes across...so the point of this thread was to find out: 1) how etiquette itself views them and 2) how this forum views them.

Well, had you posted this under "Life in General" instead of the administration area, it might be seen as something other than an attempt to police the forum (or at least to possibly gather support for doing so). Because it really does come across that way, posted where it is, KWIM? :)
I have seen posts with this phrasing and in some instances it does come across as really hostile and self-righteous and doesn't seem to add anything positive to the discussion. 

I'm trying to find out whether these phrases qualify as "zinger phrases" such as Ehelldame once addressed in a former version of the forum which I think you were not a member of at the time.  An example of what Ehelldame termed a "one-line zinger" was "I'm sorry you feel that way." We have many people who have joined since then using these phrases.
Title: Re: "I'm amazed/would you really do that?"
Post by: DangerMouth on September 03, 2010, 03:17:10 PM
I don't see that there is a consensus here. It can be hostile and self-righteous, or it can convey a true desire for clarification.
Title: Re: "I'm amazed/would you really do that?"
Post by: Lisbeth on September 03, 2010, 03:22:43 PM
I don't see that there is a consensus here. It can be hostile and self-righteous, or it can convey a true desire for clarification.

I don't see a consensus here either-but at the same time, the line between these two motives can be very fine, so it can be hard to tell which one conveys the true intent of the user.
Title: Re: "I'm amazed/would you really do that?"
Post by: DangerMouth on September 03, 2010, 03:25:31 PM
I don't see that there is a consensus here. It can be hostile and self-righteous, or it can convey a true desire for clarification.

I don't see a consensus here either-but at the same time, the line between these two motives can be very fine, so it can be hard to tell which one conveys the true intent of the user.

Well, you can always ask: "I'm sure you didn't mean that quite as snarky as that sounds?"
Title: Re: "I'm amazed/would you really do that?"
Post by: Lisbeth on September 03, 2010, 03:27:15 PM
I don't see that there is a consensus here. It can be hostile and self-righteous, or it can convey a true desire for clarification.

I don't see a consensus here either-but at the same time, the line between these two motives can be very fine, so it can be hard to tell which one conveys the true intent of the user.

Well, you can always ask: "I'm sure you didn't mean that quite as snarky as that sounds?"

I'd do that if I can be sure the mods aren't going to come down on me for being snarky!  As they say, snark doesn't justify snark in response.
Title: Re: "I'm amazed/would you really do that?"
Post by: DangerMouth on September 03, 2010, 03:36:37 PM
I don't see that there is a consensus here. It can be hostile and self-righteous, or it can convey a true desire for clarification.

I don't see a consensus here either-but at the same time, the line between these two motives can be very fine, so it can be hard to tell which one conveys the true intent of the user.

Well, you can always ask: "I'm sure you didn't mean that quite as snarky as that sounds?"

I'd do that if I can be sure the mods aren't going to come down on me for being snarky!  As they say, snark doesn't justify snark in response.

Well, I've said that when I thought someone was getting a bit worked up. No one came down on me. It can also be a gentle reminder to take a deep breath. Alternately, you could send the person a PM and say "You might not be aware of how you're sounding..."

I guess my point is that it's not going to be possible to eliminate every word or phrase to can be used in a snarky manner. Better to go with context and intent, IMO.

Also, some forums I post on have even made "assume good faith" a main posting rule. We would do well to remember that here. I know I have my 'prickly' days when I see offense everywhere, but when I come back later and read the same post in a better mood, they don't read the same to me. I think we bring a lot to our posts here, in more than the obvious ways :)
Title: Re: "I'm amazed/would you really do that?"
Post by: Lisbeth on September 04, 2010, 01:48:38 PM
I think I might be confused on the purpose of this thread if not to regulate/change/modify the manner in which people are posting. (I'll also say I did not care for the use of the "B" word in your post either. Its not something I would say on an etiquette forum...but if the mods don't care I won't tell you not to use it! :) )

Well, I apologize for that-it's not meant to describe any person so much as a very self-righteous, snide, and hostile perspective.

But that's how the use of these phrases sometimes comes across...so the point of this thread was to find out: 1) how etiquette itself views them and 2) how this forum views them.

Maybe to you.  But other people probably aren't considering themselves b-words when they say stuff that happens to be on your radar of 'things i don't like'

I mentioned that I was not calling anyone a name.  However, I find the second sentence here, about "radar of things I don't like," to be unnecessary.
Title: Re: "I'm amazed/would you really do that?"
Post by: Wordgeek on September 04, 2010, 03:49:59 PM
Eee makes a valid point, Keen.  Being rude and having a different opinion are not the same thing.   You started a thread about a specific behaviour that you don't care for and used an expletive to describe it.   Expletives *are* generally considered rude and, furthermore, they are not well tolerated here.  It surprises me not a tiny little bit that you were called out.

Since this isn't a particularly useful discussion, the thread is closed.