Etiquette Hell

Forum Administration => Forum Announcements => Topic started by: Granny Takes a Trip on October 10, 2010, 04:49:43 AM

Title: Offering unwanted advice or perspectives
Post by: Granny Takes a Trip on October 10, 2010, 04:49:43 AM

I want to make clear from the outset that I am not calling any one person out. However, I h4ave seen a trend here recently for someone asking advice about a specific issue, and being told that this issue is not worth bothering about. This strikes me as rather rude.

To clarify, I am not talking about the type of question which goes along the lines of 'I was walking along without shoes pushing my shopping cart, reading a book which I had bought for my best friend but was reading myself first, when I bumped into someone wearing shoes who had parked their shopping cart and had wrapped their book. We started yelling at each other. Who was rude?'

I mean the type of question where someone feels genuinely hurt and slighted, and wants to find a solution. Several people offer a solution, say four people. The fifth person breaks in with 'but that wasn't rude. You should just get over it.'  That strikes me as inappropriate, all the more so because of the maxim 'The OP has no control over the thread'. That last rule is in place to prevent people merely seeking for validation, so it is necessary. But I do feel that it can go to far the other way, and that people take that to mean that anyone can just crash a thread with opinions that might not be either helpful or relevant. Thoughts?
Title: Re: Offering unwanted advice or perspectives
Post by: MaggieB on October 10, 2010, 05:29:28 AM
I do see where you're coming from, and I agree that this can be done in a rude way.  But when someone posts asking for advice, they're opening themselves up to advice from people with all different perspectives.

If someone posts "Someone in my life did [something] and it bothered me.  Can I call them on it?" it is valid for another poster to say "Honestly, I think you are being a little sensitive and could cause damage to the relationship/your reputation/whatever if you do what you're proposing/what PPs have suggested."  Sometimes it's hard to see the bigger picture when you feel hurt or slighted, so it's reasonable for posters to point out when they think someone is overreacting to something that wasn't actually rude.  Again, this should always be done politely.  We really can't limit responses to only those that support the OP.  That would really defeat the purpose of a discussion board.

I think it is just the nature of the internet, and discussion boards in particular, that when you put something out there it is going to get commented on.  We can take what we find value in and ignore what we don't.
Title: Re: Offering unwanted advice or perspectives
Post by: Granny Takes a Trip on October 10, 2010, 05:37:06 AM
I do see where you're coming from, and I agree that this can be done in a rude way.  But when someone posts asking for advice, they're opening themselves up to advice from people with all different perspectives.

If someone posts "Someone in my life did [something] and it bothered me.  Can I call them on it?" it is valid for another poster to say "Honestly, I think you are being a little sensitive and could cause damage to the rel@tionship/your reputation/whatever if you do what you're proposing/what PPs have suggested."  Sometimes it's hard to see the bigger picture when you feel hurt or slighted, so it's reasonable for posters to point out when they think someone is overreacting to something that wasn't actually rude.  Again, this should always be done politely.  We really can't limit responses to only those that support the OP.  That would really defeat the purpose of a discussion board.

I think it is just the nature of the internet, and discussion boards in particular, that when you put something out there it is going to get commented on.  We can take what we find value in and ignore what we don't.
i

I  do see what you're saying. However, I was not talking about the exact situation that you describe (apologies, I had a feeling I wasn't expressing myself very well). I meant nore in a situation where someone was looking for solid advice about how to deal with rudeness, rather than a 'I might be being oversensitive, was this rude?'. I do agree that if someone asked for advice, and then everyone advised them that they were making too much of it, then no harm no foul. But I mean the sort of situation where a few people have actually posted practical advice, and then someone else steps in saying that the OP needs to 'get over it'. That strikes me as rude. If an OP has asked for valid advice, and several people have been supportive , and offered consrtuctive advice, I think that the naysayer would be better to keep their opinions to themself. But I do agree with you that the issue has many variables.
Title: Re: Offering unwanted advice or perspectives
Post by: sweetgirl on October 10, 2010, 08:25:27 AM
Is it the same topic I saw? Because I was offended by a comment on somebodies behalf and being told they were a "worrier" based on other topics from other threads.
Title: Re: Offering unwanted advice or perspectives
Post by: Granny Takes a Trip on October 10, 2010, 08:32:08 AM
Is it the same topic I saw? Because I was offended by a comment on somebodies behalf and being told they were a "worrier" based on other topics from other threads.

That is exactly the sort of thing I mean (though I'd prefer to keep it non-specific, as I don't want to call out any one thread or poster. Plus, it is a trend, so it's not as if only one person does it). You raise a good point, though. Very generally speaking, I think it is rude to reference other threads too much, though it can be really hard not to. There are some cases where it is almost inevitable that other threads will be mentioned, but I find that threads which heavily reference other threads have a nasty tendency to go south.
Title: Re: Offering unwanted advice or perspectives
Post by: MaggieB on October 10, 2010, 09:25:06 AM
I guess I'm still a little confused then. (I swear I'm not trying to be difficult!)   :)

I agree that the phrase "get over it" is not very diplomatic, but I still think that it's OK to (politely!) express the opinion that the OP is overreacting, even if others in the thread have offered advice first.  I think we need to be sensitive to each other, and if a poster is upset, I would not want to add to their stress.  But sometimes our personal baggage/background/triggers make situations seem bigger than they are, and it can be helpful to have someone say "You know, I think this has become a bigger deal that it should have.  It's probably best to leave it alone now." (Or something like that.)

Even if it's just one poster who feels that way.  We've all been there where something triggers us and we get disproportionately upset with some situation and we can't see it because we're in the middle of it.  I just don't see the value in coming here and only having people allowed to validate you.

But maybe I am still misunderstanding the types of threads you mean.  Can you give an example (not from an actual thread, but maybe just a quick generic example?)
Title: Re: Offering unwanted advice or perspectives
Post by: Granny Takes a Trip on October 10, 2010, 09:35:58 AM
I guess I'm still a little confused then. (I swear I'm not trying to be difficult!)   :)

I agree that the phrase "get over it" is not very diplomatic, but I still think that it's OK to (politely!) express the opinion that the OP is overreacting, even if others in the thread have offered advice first.  I think we need to be sensitive to each other, and if a poster is upset, I would not want to add to their stress.  But sometimes our personal baggage/background/triggers make situations seem bigger than they are, and it can be helpful to have someone say "You know, I think this has become a bigger deal that it should have.  It's probably best to leave it alone now." (Or something like that.)

Even if it's just one poster who feels that way.  We've all been there where something triggers us and we get disproportionately upset with some situation and we can't see it because we're in the middle of it.  I just don't see the value in coming here and only having people allowed to validate you.

But maybe I am still misunderstanding the types of threads you mean.  Can you give an example (not from an actual thread, but maybe just a quick generic example?)

No, I think you got me right this time, I just think we slightly disagree ;) I do see what you're saying, that it's useful to get different perspectives. I do think that that tone and manner do have a lot to do with it, I'm with you 100% there. I think that what I'm objecting to has as much to do with tone as anything. And in fact, people who are in the majority and disagreeing with the OP (or anyone else) I think have to be careful about tone as well, otherwise one ends up with a dogpile.  But there have been a couple of threads lately where I thought there has been quite a useful discussion about how to handle a situation, and then along come one or two posters who think there's a non-issue. I don't think that it is true to say that it is looking for validation to object to those posters then voicing their opinions too stridently. If you (general) think something's a non issue, fine. But you need to be careful how you say it. I suppose I especially dislike the phrase 'This wouldn't be my hill to die on' . Good for you then, but clearly the OP doesn;t feel that way. I think that threre are one or two people who say the 'hill to die on' line a bit brusquely, and then run off. I feel that this is rude, either give a full and considered answer, in tone with the thread, or refrain from commenting.
Title: Re: Offering unwanted advice or perspectives
Post by: JadeGirl on October 10, 2010, 09:41:21 AM
I think a kinder way would be to say something like:

The situation you described would not worry me, but as you are concerned, I think the best course of action might be to (suggestion).

That way a poster can express their feelings that it's not a worrisome situation, but also provide some assistance to the OP.
Title: Re: Offering unwanted advice or perspectives
Post by: Wavicle on October 10, 2010, 09:50:18 AM
I think you are right that we all need to be careful about how we word it, but this is a forum and the general idea is that we all discuss different perspectives. I think a good thing to keep in mind would be to say "That personally wouldn't bother me so I would do X, but if it bothers you then I think you should do Y" instead of "You are silly for letting it bother you." I think it is valuable to get that other perspective, and it is fine to clarify "I know this may be silly to some but this is my hill to die on."

If you only want support, then I think it is better to put it in the I need a Hug folder. Even then you still need to be open for comments, but in general that means it isn't a topic to be picked apart but the poster looking for someone to listen.
Title: Re: Offering unwanted advice or perspectives
Post by: Lisbeth on October 10, 2010, 10:06:19 AM
Well, having been in this situation myself, I can see both sides of it.  Sometimes it does seem like people are overreacting, but on the other hand, being told that you are "oversensitive," "overreacting," "get over it," "looking to be offended," etc. can have the effect of adding fuel to a fire.  So I think the sentiment needs to be conveyed in wording that is less blunt and shows more empathy for the other person.

I think it's fine to say that the person is having a reaction one would not expect to have oneself and that the course of action one would take oneself would be X.
Title: Re: Offering unwanted advice or perspectives
Post by: Granny Takes a Trip on October 10, 2010, 10:08:00 AM
Well, having been in this situation myself, I can see both sides of it.  Sometimes it does seem like people are overreacting, but on the other hand, being told that you are "oversensitive," "overreacting," "get over it," "looking to be offended," etc. can have the effect of adding fuel to a fire.  So I think the sentiment needs to be conveyed in wording that is less blunt and shows more empathy for the other person.

I think it's fine to say that the person is having a reaction one would not expect to have oneself and that the course of action one would take oneself would be X.

Great point! You are expressing better than me, what I mean. I'm not saying we have to coat everything in cotton wool, but a little diplomacy never went amiss.
Title: Re: Offering unwanted advice or perspectives
Post by: jimithing on October 10, 2010, 12:03:20 PM
Are people actually using the phrase, "Get over it!"?
Title: Re: Offering unwanted advice or perspectives
Post by: Lisbeth on October 10, 2010, 12:11:14 PM
Are people actually using the phrase, "Get over it!"?

They may not be, but the point being made is that words like "overreacting," "oversensitive," "looking to be offended," etc. can have the same effect on someone as "get over it."
Title: Re: Offering unwanted advice or perspectives
Post by: jimithing on October 10, 2010, 12:24:31 PM
Are people actually using the phrase, "Get over it!"?

They may not be, but the point being made is that words like "overreacting," "oversensitive," "looking to be offended," etc. can have the same effect on someone as "get over it."

They may have the same effect, but they aren't the same thing. The OP said that we are talking about tone and diplomacy, and I think there is a world of difference between telling someone to "get over it", and that it seems like they are "overreacting."

Do you believe none of the above terms should ever be used? Because I do feel that would be unreasonable. And again, if you are posting on a message board, seeking advice, you need to be prepared to hear dissonance. I don't feel that telling someone that they parehaps are being a little too sensitive is the same thing as telling someone to get over it.
Title: Re: Offering unwanted advice or perspectives
Post by: ydpubs on October 10, 2010, 12:33:00 PM
Are people actually using the phrase, "Get over it!"?

They may not be, but the point being made is that words like "overreacting," "oversensitive," "looking to be offended," etc. can have the same effect on someone as "get over it."

They may have the same effect, but they aren't the same thing. The OP said that we are talking about tone and diplomacy, and I think there is a world of difference between telling someone to "get over it", and that it seems like they are "overreacting."

Do you believe none of the above terms should ever be used? Because I do feel that would be unreasonable. And again, if you are posting on a message board, seeking advice, you need to be prepared to hear dissonance. I don't feel that telling someone that they parehaps are being a little too sensitive is the same thing as telling someone to get over it.

POD to jimithing. They are not the same thing.

You can say: What's the matter with you? Just get over it.

Or: This sounds like overreacting to me.

If you post for advice and thoughts on a message board, you should be prepared to hear thoughts and opinions that don't give agree with or support your situation or even opinions that say: Does the situation really warrant this reaction from you?
Title: Re: Offering unwanted advice or perspectives
Post by: Lisbeth on October 10, 2010, 12:58:40 PM
Are people actually using the phrase, "Get over it!"?

They may not be, but the point being made is that words like "overreacting," "oversensitive," "looking to be offended," etc. can have the same effect on someone as "get over it."

They may have the same effect, but they aren't the same thing. The OP said that we are talking about tone and diplomacy, and I think there is a world of difference between telling someone to "get over it", and that it seems like they are "overreacting."

Do you believe none of the above terms should ever be used? Because I do feel that would be unreasonable. And again, if you are posting on a message board, seeking advice, you need to be prepared to hear dissonance. I don't feel that telling someone that they parehaps are being a little too sensitive is the same thing as telling someone to get over it.

I think you're reading things into my post that weren't there.  I'm not seeing where you're getting the idea that I might think none of the above terms should ever be used (with the exception of "get over it," which I do think should never be used).

I was responding to your question about whether or not posters here are actually using that phrase.  I haven't seen posters use it to each other, although now and then I've seen people say "he should just get over it" when referring to a third party who isn't on the site.

But I do think that depending on how the "overreacting," "oversensitive," "looking to be offended," are used, they can be used in totally reasonable ways, or they can be used in very dismissive ways that have the same effect on someone as telling them to "get over it," so it's important to exercise caution and judgment and not just toss them off when using them.
Title: Re: Offering unwanted advice or perspectives
Post by: MrsJWine on October 10, 2010, 12:59:44 PM
I've suggested that OPs are looking to be offended, or that they're overreacting, or that their own personal baggage has caused them to react more strongly than the average person would.  My number one reason for doing this is that, most of the time, it only causes more angst to the person who was wronged.  

For instance, OP writes, "It was really crowded at Target, and I was bumped in the store, and it really hurt, but the person didn't even say sorry!"  And the OP goes on to say how upset she is by this, and how she feels so wronged, and should she say something the next time she sees this person.  I would reply with something like, "If it was a busy day, it's most likely the person didn't even realize he bumped into you.  In a crowd, it's possible to stop noticing when people are running into you, or when you bump into them.  I think getting so upset over this is an overreaction, and it's doing you more harm than anything else."

In other cases, I think people hugely overreact to something the average person wouldn't even bat an eye at.  Now, it's okay to tell acquaintances and friends that throwing the word "mangy" about recklessly hurts your feelings because your beloved dog has had recurring mange, and it's an awful condition.  But going off on someone (even politely) over this is and overreaction, and you can't expect that it's a fair reaction to people who have never even heard the phrase used to describe an actual condition.

I try hard not to minimize people's feelings, but some actions and reactions are unacceptable, no matter how huge the impact of previous experiences.  I'm a very easygoing person, but I have a couple of really hot buttons.  People push those buttons, and it's very, very hard for me not to take it personally and overreact.  I need to know that taking it personally and overreacting is both bad for me and unfair to other people.  And sometimes I need to be reminded of that.
Title: Re: Offering unwanted advice or perspectives
Post by: jimithing on October 10, 2010, 01:05:06 PM
Are people actually using the phrase, "Get over it!"?

They may not be, but the point being made is that words like "overreacting," "oversensitive," "looking to be offended," etc. can have the same effect on someone as "get over it."

They may have the same effect, but they aren't the same thing. The OP said that we are talking about tone and diplomacy, and I think there is a world of difference between telling someone to "get over it", and that it seems like they are "overreacting."

Do you believe none of the above terms should ever be used? Because I do feel that would be unreasonable. And again, if you are posting on a message board, seeking advice, you need to be prepared to hear dissonance. I don't feel that telling someone that they parehaps are being a little too sensitive is the same thing as telling someone to get over it.

I think you're reading things into my post that weren't there.  I'm not seeing where you're getting the idea that I might think none of the above terms should ever be used (with the exception of "get over it," which I do think should never be used).

I was responding to your question about whether or not posters here are actually using that phrase.  I haven't seen posters use it to each other, although now and then I've seen people say "he should just get over it" when referring to a third party who isn't on the site.

But I do think that depending on how the "overreacting," "oversensitive," "looking to be offended," are used, they can be used in totally reasonable ways, or they can be used in very dismissive ways that have the same effect on someone as telling them to "get over it," so it's important to exercise caution and judgment and not just toss them off when using them.

I didn't assume you felt that they shouldn't be used. I asked you if you did, and stated that if that were indeed the case, I think it would be unreasonable.
Title: Re: Offering unwanted advice or perspectives
Post by: Granny Takes a Trip on October 10, 2010, 01:05:51 PM
Are people actually using the phrase, "Get over it!"?

I have not actually seen 'get over it', but I have seen some very blunt phrasing, and the ever-present 'this wouldn;t be my hill to die on' which I think is a bit PA.  I do agree that people should not be just posting for validation, and it can be tricky to measure. I really don't want to get into too much detail, because I don't want to call out particular threads. But I will say that I think that there is a very real difference between politely pointing out that someone may be overreacting, and one or two of the comments that I have seen. The more I think about it, the more I think tone is key.
Title: Re: Offering unwanted advice or perspectives
Post by: jimithing on October 10, 2010, 01:09:51 PM
Are people actually using the phrase, "Get over it!"?

I have not actually seen 'get over it', but I have seen some very blunt phrasing, and the ever-present 'this wouldn;t be my hill to die on' which I think is a bit PA.  I do agree that people should not be just posting for validation, and it can be tricky to measure. I really don't want to get into too much detail, because I don't want to call out particular threads. But I will say that I think that there is a very real difference between politely pointing out that someone may be overreacting, and one or two of the comments that I have seen. The more I think about it, the more I think tone is key.

I think this just comes down to perception. I think *anything* can sound snarky. We just had a thread about using the term, "Is there an etiquette question here?", and even that was divided. It's about tone.

I don't think, "This wouldn't be my hill to die on.", is always PA. But it can be. I think the phrase, "Get over it.", is probably universally snarky. But I find that members of this board are very capable of expressing similar thoughts in a way that is softer and kinder. Which is why I think the phrases that have been brought up here, "oversensitive", etc., are fine.

And again, if you feel that something crosses the line, report it.
Title: Re: Offering unwanted advice or perspectives
Post by: gollymolly2 on October 10, 2010, 02:48:38 PM
Let's say the question is "How should I respond to Bob's actions politely?"  For me, part of assessing an appropriate, polite response is deciding what kind of response would be proportionate to Bob's actions.  If Bob says "I hope your baby dies," I'm less concerned with sparing their feelings.  If, on the other hand, Bob makes a very minor and well intentioned faux pas, I'm less inclined to suggest making a strong - or any - response.

So the extent of the other party's rudeness is very relevant.  And if the OP is, in my opinion, waaaay overreacting to a minor slight, then I think it is relevant to say to the OP "I think you're overreacting and shouldn't respond to the OP."  There are certainly ways to communicate an overreaction that are rude, and we should avoid doing that.  But my point is that overreactions are totally relevant to the questions being asked, and I think it's fine to communicate that to the OP.
Title: Re: Offering unwanted advice or perspectives
Post by: JoieGirl7 on October 10, 2010, 03:48:59 PM
People have different perspectives and advice.  If someone cannot handle that to the point where they expect the forum to change for them, they shouldn't post.
Title: Re: Offering unwanted advice or perspectives
Post by: Granny Takes a Trip on October 10, 2010, 04:27:32 PM
People have different perspectives and advice.  If someone cannot handle that to the point where they expect the forum to change for them, they shouldn't post.

True, but people also shouldn't be rude about how they post. I don't think it's 'especting the forum to change' to ask people to think before they post, or if it is, that can only be a change for the better.
Title: Re: Offering unwanted advice or perspectives
Post by: jimithing on October 10, 2010, 04:46:32 PM
People have different perspectives and advice.  If someone cannot handle that to the point where they expect the forum to change for them, they shouldn't post.

True, but people also shouldn't be rude about how they post. I don't think it's 'especting the forum to change' to ask people to think before they post, or if it is, that can only be a change for the better.

Of course they shouldn't. And I would say this is the exception, rather than the rule. And FWIW, if I see a post that I feel is out of line, or overly harsh, I have been known to say something to the poster, or report it.
Title: Re: Offering unwanted advice or perspectives
Post by: JoieGirl7 on October 10, 2010, 05:31:05 PM
People have different perspectives and advice.  If someone cannot handle that to the point where they expect the forum to change for them, they shouldn't post.

True, but people also shouldn't be rude about how they post. I don't think it's 'especting the forum to change' to ask people to think before they post, or if it is, that can only be a change for the better.

No one in the thread that you are referencing was rude to the OP.
 
Again, you are being offensive by assuming that those responses you felt were rude were posted by people who did not think before they posted.
 
In fact, they did think.  They read the posting, thought about it and offered their opinion.
 
It wasn't an opinion you agreed with.  You are free to post your disagreement, but your insistence that they were rude for suggesting that the issue was rather small, that the OP was OTT for getting upset about it or looking for offense where there was a high likelihood that none was intended is wrong.
 
And if you think someone is being rude to someone else on the forum, there is a link to "Report to Moderator" on the lower right of every post in the forum.  This will bring up a small box wherein you can detail what you are reporting and why.
 
If a moderator finds that a poster has broken the rules of the forum, there will be moderation.
 
But, for you to post an entirely new thread to protest the suggestions and opinions of well intentioned members of this forum where you infer that they are unthinking and rude, is in and of itself rather rude.
 
You may not be calling anyone out personally, but you certainly have no qualms about characterizing whole swaths of this community in a particular way.
Title: Re: Offering unwanted advice or perspectives
Post by: JoieGirl7 on October 10, 2010, 05:32:29 PM
Here is a thread on the topic of reporting procedures:

http://www.etiquettehell.com/smf/index.php?topic=68532.0
Title: Re: Offering unwanted advice or perspectives
Post by: dawbs on October 10, 2010, 05:56:46 PM
*snip*. If an OP has asked for valid advice, and several people have been supportive , and offered consrtuctive advice, I think that the naysayer would be better to keep their opinions to themself. But I do agree with you that the issue has many variables.

I think part of the disagreement here is whether the 'naysayers' are being difficult/argumentative/etc or whether they are answering the question/giving advice.

Personally, I think they're usually (usually, although lots of variables and, as established 'get iover it' is probably not the polite way to say it) giving advice.

And I think the question as posed in the OP here may be part of the problem...'Who was rude' is often not the question one intends to ask--it assumes that 1) someone was rude and 2) implies [I know it doesn't say it, but I read it that way[ only one person was rude.
If that is the question asked, "neither of you was rude, both of you are reacting to something minor.  Perhaps in a very over-the-top way; Personally I think ignoring Bob's mistake and going about your business would be the best way to handle it' would/could be a very appropriate answer. 

Personally, I think that "get over it/you may be overreacting/etc" (phrased appropriately) can indeed be good, relevant, helpful advice
Title: Re: Offering unwanted advice or perspectives
Post by: ydpubs on October 11, 2010, 01:56:36 AM
People have different perspectives and advice.  If someone cannot handle that to the point where they expect the forum to change for them, they shouldn't post.

True, but people also shouldn't be rude about how they post. I don't think it's 'especting the forum to change' to ask people to think before they post, or if it is, that can only be a change for the better.

No one in the thread that you are referencing was rude to the OP.
 
Again, you are being offensive by assuming that those responses you felt were rude were posted by people who did not think before they posted.
 
In fact, they did think.  They read the posting, thought about it and offered their opinion.
 
It wasn't an opinion you agreed with.  You are free to post your disagreement, but your insistence that they were rude for suggesting that the issue was rather small, that the OP was OTT for getting upset about it or looking for offense where there was a high likelihood that none was intended is wrong.
 
And if you think someone is being rude to someone else on the forum, there is a link to "Report to Moderator" on the lower right of every post in the forum.  This will bring up a small box wherein you can detail what you are reporting and why.
 
If a moderator finds that a poster has broken the rules of the forum, there will be moderation.
 
But, for you to post an entirely new thread to protest the suggestions and opinions of well intentioned members of this forum where you infer that they are unthinking and rude, is in and of itself rather rude.
 
You may not be calling anyone out personally, but you certainly have no qualms about characterizing whole swaths of this community in a particular way.

I have to agree with Audrey Quest.

One thing I would have to say is, I find the title of the thread to be rather off putting. In most of the threads in the etiquette folders here at EHell, people are specificallly asking for opinions, perspectives and advice. To label those differing viewpoints as unwanted advice or perspectives sounds like: I just want posts that agree with me and validate my point of view. I mean really, are they unwanted simply because the OP (and when I say OP I mean the starter of any given thread) doesn't agree and doesn't like them?

There are folders for unconditional support here. If that is what is being sought, then that is where the thread should be posted, not in the General Categories Folders or any other folder where differing opinions, viewpoints, advice and perspectives are assumed to be welcome.

Edited for spelling!
Title: Re: Offering unwanted advice or perspectives
Post by: Ceallach on October 11, 2010, 04:05:24 AM
Can I just say, a lot of the threads we are seeing in this announcements folder seem to relate more to how people word their posts than to any specific wrongdoing. Once again, this isn't really an issue we can reach a consensus on (or get a "ruling" on) because there are so many different possible scenarios. What may be perfectly polite and acceptable in one context could be harsh and rude in another.  It depends on the poster, the scenario, and the overall tone and direction of the thread.

There is clearly a very fine line with this issue - one shouldn't be dismissive to other posters when they're asking for advice, but neither is it wrong to point out that a situation may not require the kind of response they are proposing.

Ultimately, I think we'd agree that every poster on eHell needs to be aware of the following:  To try to word our posts in a way that avoids rudeness or offence.  That means we have to consider how our posts might be interpreted (even if it isn't the way we intend them), to remain civil even in disagreement, to avoid nastiness and to apologize if we do find ourselves caught up in the midst of unpleasant misunderstandings or conflicts.  So while I agree that I have also seen situations where a poster is being unnecessarily dismissive to an OP's issue, it's really up to each individual to try to avoid crossing the line between discussion and snarkiness. And when they don't, it's up to us to alert the mods to the situation.  Overall I don't think that any discussion on this topic will change anybody's behaviour, because (one would assume) they are not setting out to be rude in the first place and don't think that they are crossing that line, OR they are crossing the line in which case they'll hopefully not be around long.  Just my 50 cents worth.

Title: Re: Offering unwanted advice or perspectives
Post by: penelope2017 on October 11, 2010, 06:31:56 AM
Unfortunately when you post an advice question on a public board, you can't cherry pick your responses to be only the ones you want.

That's sort of the reason you post on a public board, I think. To get a cross section of responses, and hopefully ones you haven't thought of before. Sometimes the best advice is to hear that you are overreacting. That's not dismissive of the OP, that's an attempt to be helpful, as long as it is said politely.

There are definitely times when I read an OP and feel the OP is so overreacting, or posts so many of the same type of threads with the same type of over-sensitive responses or  overreactions, that I probably can't articulate that in a polite way, so I don't post in the thread. But if I can say it politely, I will probably do so. And I would welcome that type of advice myself were I to post my own reaction to to something.

It's an opportunity to reflect on yourself and your reactions and possibly change a pattern of behavior that could be making you unhappier than you have to be. The only place really where I think people should be able to direct responses is the "I need a hug" folder. Other than that, if you aren't prepared to hear every politely worded perspective or advice, or view it as "unwanted," it is probably not a good idea to post in a public folder. An actual opinion that falls within the rules of this board, in my opinion, can't be impolite. It is only the way it is presented that can be impolite.

Title: Re: Offering unwanted advice or perspectives
Post by: Granny Takes a Trip on October 11, 2010, 11:15:18 AM
People have different perspectives and advice.  If someone cannot handle that to the point where they expect the forum to change for them, they shouldn't post.

True, but people also shouldn't be rude about how they post. I don't think it's 'especting the forum to change' to ask people to think before they post, or if it is, that can only be a change for the better.

No one in the thread that you are referencing was rude to the OP.
 
Again, you are being offensive by assuming that those responses you felt were rude were posted by people who did not think before they posted.
 
In fact, they did think.  They read the posting, thought about it and offered their opinion.
 
It wasn't an opinion you agreed with.  You are free to post your disagreement, but your insistence that they were rude for suggesting that the issue was rather small, that the OP was OTT for getting upset about it or looking for offense where there was a high likelihood that none was intended is wrong.
 
And if you think someone is being rude to someone else on the forum, there is a link to "Report to Moderator" on the lower right of every post in the forum.  This will bring up a small box wherein you can detail what you are reporting and why.
 
If a moderator finds that a poster has broken the rules of the forum, there will be moderation.
 
But, for you to post an entirely new thread to protest the suggestions and opinions of well intentioned members of this forum where you infer that they are unthinking and rude, is in and of itself rather rude.
 
You may not be calling anyone out personally, but you certainly have no qualms about characterizing whole swaths of this community in a particular way.

Um, you have just made a massive assumption. You have no idea what thread I was referencing, and in fact it was not one that I myself posted in.  I find your post to me very rude.

ETA. I have no problem with disagreement, but to speculate and gossip when I was deliberately vague is deliberately rude, I think. To those who feel these types of threads are inappropriate: I feel that this folder is here not just for 'housekeeping', but to discuss forum issues. Many threads have been started about issues like these-if there was a problem with it, I think there would be a forum rule against it.  I feel that the discussion has been pretty polite, and productive. Everyone has things that they like and dislike about the forum, and I have noticed many threads like these. If anyone really dislikes these types of threads, I apologise. Nonetheless, I feel they are a right that we have. Just as things that I, and others, do not like, are a right of other posters.
Title: Re: Offering unwanted advice or perspectives
Post by: ladiedeathe on October 11, 2010, 11:55:21 AM
There is a massive difference between being an etiquette maven and an etiquette martinet. If we descend to the level of controlling exactly how people word their replys, with any variation, weak word choice, or alternate phrase usage seen as rude or pa, we are no longer a useful board. If we find the whole world a rudeness in progress, and post each tiny offense/deviation, and only encourage each other in finding offense when none was intended, we are no longer a useful board.

Sometimes the offense is non-existant. Some times it is eggregious. All of us working together can find the working etiquette for the modern world. I don't think we should silence people who, politely, state a belief that no offense occurred.
Title: Re: Offering unwanted advice or perspectives
Post by: Scuba_Dog on October 11, 2010, 11:58:12 AM

I want to make clear from the outset that I am not calling any one person out. However, I h4ave seen a trend here recently for someone asking advice about a specific issue, and being told that this issue is not worth bothering about. This strikes me as rather rude.

To clarify, I am not talking about the type of question which goes along the lines of 'I was walking along without shoes pushing my shopping cart, reading a book which I had bought for my best friend but was reading myself first, when I bumped into someone wearing shoes who had parked their shopping cart and had wrapped their book. We started yelling at each other. Who was rude?'

I mean the type of question where someone feels genuinely hurt and slighted, and wants to find a solution. Several people offer a solution, say four people. The fifth person breaks in with 'but that wasn't rude. You should just get over it.'  That strikes me as inappropriate, all the more so because of the maxim 'The OP has no control over the thread'. That last rule is in place to prevent people merely seeking for validation, so it is necessary. But I do feel that it can go to far the other way, and that people take that to mean that anyone can just crash a thread with opinions that might not be either helpful or relevant. Thoughts?

If you think a post falls outside of the posted forum rules, then use the report to moderator function, follow the reporting procedures and submit.
Link to forum rules
http://www.etiquettehell.com/smf/index.php?topic=2.0
Link to reporting procedures
http://www.etiquettehell.com/smf/index.php?topic=68532.0
If a rule has been broken then the MOD’s will certainly take care of it.  If no moderation happens after you report, then you can probably rest assured that the MOD’s didn’t see a violation.

It seems like there are a lot of these types of threads lately, and they all end in with the same conclusion/resolution.  

Report to a MOD if you think there’s an issue.

I’ve found these two forum rules to be very useful.

Irritating People: Someone, sometime in this forum will annoy the bejeebers out of you. Adults will try to resolve it first in Private Messaging or email, children have spats on the forum that can get one or both parties gagged or banned.  Mods are not here to play Mother to people who will not exercise self control in mentally ignoring irritating people. And we really don’t want to know who you have placed on “Ignore”.

Scritzy's Coke Rule applies:
Scritzy’s Coke Rule:


1. If a post annoys me, count to ten before replying.
2. If a post angers me, count to a hundred.
3. If a post infuriates me, shut down the computer and drink Coke.
And btw, Scritzy’s Coke Rule was originally meant to be applied quietly to oneself, without announcing your reaction that you'll soon be imbibing.
Title: Re: Offering unwanted advice or perspectives
Post by: Granny Takes a Trip on October 11, 2010, 12:27:12 PM
There is a massive difference between being an etiquette maven and an etiquette martinet. If we descend to the level of controlling exactly how people word their replys, with any variation, weak word choice, or alternate phrase usage seen as rude or pa, we are no longer a useful board. If we find the whole world a rudeness in progress, and post each tiny offense/deviation, and only encourage each other in finding offense when none was intended, we are no longer a useful board.

Sometimes the offense is non-existant. Some times it is eggregious. All of us working together can find the working etiquette for the modern world. I don't think we should silence people who, politely, state a belief that no offense occurred.

Yes, that's all true. I don't think that I indicated that there should be 'no variation', though, I'm not sure where you got that from my post. All I meant by this thread was to point up a trend which I saw (not, as I said earlier, in response to any one contentious thread, or one where I was the OP). I suppose I wonder what an OP can do, though. Because I have seen people complain when an OP only acknowledges supportive posts. To me, this is unfair. If an OP (or anyone) only wishes to respond to certain posts, surely that is their right (this is not at all adressed at you, ladiedeathe, just a general observation)
Title: Re: Offering unwanted advice or perspectives
Post by: KenveeB on October 11, 2010, 12:49:16 PM
If someone posts a thread of "Bob did something very rude to me, how can I handle it?", then it's not only relevant but necessary to consider the actual rudeness of the initial person in order to answer the question.  If in fact Bob did something that isn't rude at all, then my advice to the OP is going to be a lot different than if Bob did something that was clearly rude.  "Bob wasn't actually rude, so you should let it go" is just as valid a response to a post as "here's how to respond to Bob's rudeness."  It's an implicit part of the question.
Title: Re: Offering unwanted advice or perspectives
Post by: Granny Takes a Trip on October 11, 2010, 12:51:11 PM
*snip*. If an OP has asked for valid advice, and several people have been supportive , and offered consrtuctive advice, I think that the naysayer would be better to keep their opinions to themself. But I do agree with you that the issue has many variables.

I think part of the disagreement here is whether the 'naysayers' are being difficult/argumentative/etc or whether they are answering the question/giving advice.

Personally, I think they're usually (usually, although lots of variables and, as established 'get iover it' is probably not the polite way to say it) giving advice.

And I think the question as posed in the OP here may be part of the problem...'Who was rude' is often not the question one intends to ask--it assumes that 1) someone was rude and 2) implies [I know it doesn't say it, but I read it that way[ only one person was rude.
If that is the question asked, "neither of you was rude, both of you are reacting to something minor.  Perhaps in a very over-the-top way; Personally I think ignoring Bob's mistake and going about your business would be the best way to handle it' would/could be a very appropriate answer. 

Personally, I think that "get over it/you may be overreacting/etc" (phrased appropriately) can indeed be good, relevant, helpful advice

Reading this post, I think that you have misunderstood my post :)  I was not talking about 'who was rude' type questions. I apologise if I was unclear. I meant the sort of question where the OP is in fact sure that the offending party was rude, and is asking for advice for how to deal with it. Don't get me wrong, I still think it's ok to say 'actually, I think perhaps if you saw it from another perspective, Uncle Bob wasn't rude. Have I considered XYZ? But of course, I wasn't there, so YMMV.' That sort of wording would be fine.  What I am talking about is when four or five people have given helpful suggestions on how to deal with Uncle Bob, and the fifth person says 'Well, this really wouldn't be my hill to die on. I think you should just let it go'. No real explanation, (or sometimes at best, a very brief one related to that person's experieince). To me,while that is not report worthy, it is not really helpful or polite either. Does that make sense?
Title: Re: Offering unwanted advice or perspectives
Post by: Granny Takes a Trip on October 11, 2010, 12:53:09 PM
If someone posts a thread of "Bob did something very rude to me, how can I handle it?", then it's not only relevant but necessary to consider the actual rudeness of the initial person in order to answer the question.  If in fact Bob did something that isn't rude at all, then my advice to the OP is going to be a lot different than if Bob did something that was clearly rude.  "Bob wasn't actually rude, so you should let it go" is just as valid a response to a post as "here's how to respond to Bob's rudeness."  It's an implicit part of the question.

That's a good point, a very good one. That's what makes it so hard! Again, it's really all about tone.
Title: Re: Offering unwanted advice or perspectives
Post by: Wavicle on October 11, 2010, 12:54:46 PM
I don't think it is rude to express an opinion that others may not agree with. I have personally been frustrated being told to let something go, but me being frustrated does not make the statement rude. This is a forum and there will be different opinions, and being polite doesn't mean pretending to agree. I figure if I am frustrated that someone doesn't understand why it is my hill to die on it is up to me to either explain my position or to just take it as a different opinion.
Title: Re: Offering unwanted advice or perspectives
Post by: Granny Takes a Trip on October 11, 2010, 12:57:22 PM
I don't think it is rude to express an opinion that others may not agree with. I have personally been frustrated being told to let something go, but me being frustrated does not make the statement rude. This is a forum and there will be different opinions, and being polite doesn't mean pretending to agree. I figure if I am frustrated that someone doesn't understand why it is my hill to die on it is up to me to either explain my position or to just take it as a different opinion.

Good point. However, I still think that if the dissenting poster has seen that they are in a minority, they need to build their argument a little more, and explain. Again, the threads I am thinking of (which I did not actually post in) had a very brusque 'post and run' feel.
Title: Re: Offering unwanted advice or perspectives
Post by: ydpubs on October 11, 2010, 12:58:05 PM
*snip*. If an OP has asked for valid advice, and several people have been supportive , and offered consrtuctive advice, I think that the naysayer would be better to keep their opinions to themself. But I do agree with you that the issue has many variables.

I think part of the disagreement here is whether the 'naysayers' are being difficult/argumentative/etc or whether they are answering the question/giving advice.

Personally, I think they're usually (usually, although lots of variables and, as established 'get iover it' is probably not the polite way to say it) giving advice.

And I think the question as posed in the OP here may be part of the problem...'Who was rude' is often not the question one intends to ask--it assumes that 1) someone was rude and 2) implies [I know it doesn't say it, but I read it that way[ only one person was rude.
If that is the question asked, "neither of you was rude, both of you are reacting to something minor.  Perhaps in a very over-the-top way; Personally I think ignoring Bob's mistake and going about your business would be the best way to handle it' would/could be a very appropriate answer. 

Personally, I think that "get over it/you may be overreacting/etc" (phrased appropriately) can indeed be good, relevant, helpful advice

Reading this post, I think that you have misunderstood my post :)  I was not talking about 'who was rude' type questions. I apologise if I was unclear. I meant the sort of question where the OP is in fact sure that the offending party was rude, and is asking for advice for how to deal with it. Don't get me wrong, I still think it's ok to say 'actually, I think perhaps if you saw it from another perspective, Uncle Bob wasn't rude. Have I considered XYZ? But of course, I wasn't there, so YMMV.' That sort of wording would be fine.  What I am talking about is when four or five people have given helpful suggestions on how to deal with Uncle Bob, and the fifth person says 'Well, this really wouldn't be my hill to die on. I think you should just let it go'. No real explanation, (or sometimes at best, a very brief one related to that person's experieince). To me,while that is not report worthy, it is not really helpful or polite either. Does that make sense?

Generally, when I see a string of brief posts such as the ones you listed, they follow other longer, in depth responses and the shorter ones are in agreement with that one. Not saying this is always the case, but that is what I've seen most of the time, not: Let it go, with no further explanation from the responder. I do this all the time if another poster put my thoughts on screen, I see no need to retype it all when someone else just put exactly what I thought in the post above me. BUT when I do make a such brief post I will say: I agree with PP's, it might be time to let this go.
Title: Re: Offering unwanted advice or perspectives
Post by: PaintingPastelPrincess on October 11, 2010, 12:58:39 PM
I think the bigger issue is when the OP reads the dissenting opinion, actually agrees with it and posts something like "You know, you're right. I did overreact, and I plan to drop the issue."  Then, you'll either see all of the supporters jumping on the OP for "letting it go," or the dissenter reiterating the point that has already been made and accepted.   ::)  That's what tends to drive me nuts.
Title: Re: Offering unwanted advice or perspectives
Post by: Granny Takes a Trip on October 11, 2010, 01:01:03 PM
I think the bigger issue is when the OP reads the dissenting opinion, actually agrees with it and posts something like "You know, you're right. I did overreact, and I plan to drop the issue."  Then, you'll either see all of the supporters jumping on the OP for "letting it go," or the dissenter reiterating the point that has already been made and accepted.   ::)  That's what tends to drive me nuts.


I have not seen any of the former situation, but boy oh boy have I seen the latter! Irritating in the extreme.
Title: Re: Offering unwanted advice or perspectives
Post by: DangerMouth on October 11, 2010, 01:18:33 PM

Good point. However, I still think that if the dissenting poster has seen that they are in a minority, they need to build their argument a little more, and explain. Again, the threads I am thinking of (which I did not actually post in) had a very brusque 'post and run' feel.

Maybe it does feel that way to you. Maybe it is that way. But as scuba dog posted, eHell isn't going to make rules about every irritating, unhelpful posting situation, because we already have two very good rules in place:

Quote
Irritating People: Someone, sometime in this forum will annoy the bejeebers out of you. Adults will try to resolve it first in Private Messaging or email, children have spats on the forum that can get one or both parties gagged or banned.  Mods are not here to play Mother to people who will not exercise self control in mentally ignoring irritating people. And we really don’t want to know who you have placed on “Ignore”.

Scritzy's Coke Rule applies:
Scritzy’s Coke Rule:

1. If a post annoys me, count to ten before replying.
2. If a post angers me, count to a hundred.
3. If a post infuriates me, shut down the computer and drink Coke.
And btw, Scritzy’s Coke Rule was originally meant to be applied quietly to oneself, without announcing your reaction that you'll soon be imbibing.

It would be 'nice' if everyone were perfectly polite, all the time, and made only perfectly clear, cogent and helpful posts, but I actually find those irritating, annoying and sometimes downright unpleasant posts to be equally helpful. If I can't meet an anonomous post on an internet forum with eqanimity, how do you think I'll do out in the real world, with possibly more at stake than making my point? This forum has turned out to be not only a repository of advice on ettiquette, but also a 'training ground' of sorts for the types of people and situations I may meet IRL.

JMO, YMMV 8)
Title: Re: Offering unwanted advice or perspectives
Post by: artk2002 on October 11, 2010, 01:58:45 PM
Are people actually using the phrase, "Get over it!"?

I have not actually seen 'get over it', but I have seen some very blunt phrasing, and the ever-present 'this wouldn;t be my hill to die on' which I think is a bit PA.

I disagree, quite strongly, that that expression is PA.  There's a lot of misunderstanding about what passive-aggressive really is on this board.  PA is saying one thing (a passive statement) when you want to force some response from someone else (an aggressive action.)  Someone's MIL saying "Gee, it's really hot in here" when she means to say "could you please get me a drink of water" is PA.

That said, I don't find anything wrong with the "that wouldn't be my hill to die on" to be out of line at all.  It's expressing the feeling of that particular poster that the issue under discussion wouldn't be as significant is it is to another.  It isn't telling the other person that they're wrong for feeling that way, but that the poster doesn't.  It's no more out of line than someone saying "I love carrots" in response to another poster saying "carrots are the most evil food in the universe."

If someone just wants validation for their feelings, then this isn't the forum for them.  People come here for advice and they get it -- not always the advice they want, though.  They get other perspectives, which may help them look at their situation in a different light.  I, for one, appreciate hearing "that's not my hill to die on," because it helps me look at my situation with fresh eyes.  If all I wanted to hear was "you're right; that stinks, go out and give 'em hell," I'd talk to my mirror.
Title: Re: Offering unwanted advice or perspectives
Post by: ydpubs on October 11, 2010, 02:03:07 PM
Are people actually using the phrase, "Get over it!"?

I have not actually seen 'get over it', but I have seen some very blunt phrasing, and the ever-present 'this wouldn;t be my hill to die on' which I think is a bit PA.

I disagree, quite strongly, that that expression is PA.  There's a lot of misunderstanding about what passive-aggressive really is on this board.  PA is saying one thing (a passive statement) when you want to force some response from someone else (an aggressive action.)  Someone's MIL saying "Gee, it's really hot in here" when she means to say "could you please get me a drink of water" is PA.

That said, I don't find anything wrong with the "that wouldn't be my hill to die on" to be out of line at all.  It's expressing the feeling of that particular poster that the issue under discussion wouldn't be as significant is it is to another.  It isn't telling the other person that they're wrong for feeling that way, but that the poster doesn't.  It's no more out of line than someone saying "I love carrots" in response to another poster saying "carrots are the most evil food in the universe."

If someone just wants validation for their feelings, then this isn't the forum for them.  People come here for advice and they get it -- not always the advice they want, though.  They get other perspectives, which may help them look at their situation in a different light.  I, for one, appreciate hearing "that's not my hill to die on," because it helps me look at my situation with fresh eyes.  If all I wanted to hear was "you're right; that stinks, go out and give 'em hell," I'd talk to my mirror.

Well said artk2002. I agree with you 100%
Title: Re: Offering unwanted advice or perspectives
Post by: Granny Takes a Trip on October 11, 2010, 02:05:02 PM

Good point. However, I still think that if the dissenting poster has seen that they are in a minority, they need to build their argument a little more, and explain. Again, the threads I am thinking of (which I did not actually post in) had a very brusque 'post and run' feel.

Maybe it does feel that way to you. Maybe it is that way. But as scuba dog posted, eHell isn't going to make rules about every irritating, unhelpful posting situation, because we already have two very good rules in place:

Quote
Irritating People: Someone, sometime in this forum will annoy the bejeebers out of you. Adults will try to resolve it first in Private Messaging or email, children have spats on the forum that can get one or both parties gagged or banned.  Mods are not here to play Mother to people who will not exercise self control in mentally ignoring irritating people. And we really don’t want to know who you have placed on “Ignore”.

Scritzy's Coke Rule applies:
Scritzy’s Coke Rule:

1. If a post annoys me, count to ten before replying.
2. If a post angers me, count to a hundred.
3. If a post infuriates me, shut down the computer and drink Coke.
And btw, Scritzy’s Coke Rule was originally meant to be applied quietly to oneself, without announcing your reaction that you'll soon be imbibing.

It would be 'nice' if everyone were perfectly polite, all the time, and made only perfectly clear, cogent and helpful posts, but I actually find those irritating, annoying and sometimes downright unpleasant posts to be equally helpful. If I can't meet an anonomous post on an internet forum with eqanimity, how do you think I'll do out in the real world, with possibly more at stake than making my point? This forum has turned out to be not only a repository of advice on ettiquette, but also a 'training ground' of sorts for the types of people and situations I may meet IRL.

JMO, YMMV 8)

IDK, I'm not really like that though. I'm not saying you're wrong, or anything-as you say, everyone's different. But in IRL, I tend to be too easily put upon, and part of the reason I come to e-hell is to find ways to be more assertive. IRL, I have two settings-overmeek, and very belligerent.  I think assertivness is something hard won, and I find e-hell very useful for finding out how to deal with situations. In my own threads, it would have to be a landslide majority of posters telling me I was wrong about something to make me rethink, and I mean a lanslide, like a 'snake in a restaurant' thread. But I digress, as I was not talking about my own threads in this OP. However, one's own experience feeds into one's feelings, I guess. I suppose I am very wary of telling people they are overreacting, and I dislike telling people that they have been rude, unless it is egregious.  But that deals with content, when what I am really concerned about is tone. One useful thing that has come out of this thread for me is the knowledge that one can report posts-I was always leery of doing that before, it seemed a bit playground-ish. But now I realise that well repsected posters do it, I can always just do that in future.

ETA. I have just read the thread that I think goes with this one, the 'seeking validation' thread.  My feelings on this are complicated, but I think that there is a difference between a loud vent, and seeking helpful opinions. I also think that posters who disagree with an OP cannot have it both ways. If the OP is not allowed to seek validation, and is supposed to be open to having their view of the situation turned around, then surely that should be true for the opposing poster, kwim? I mean, I don't think any poster in a thread is owed the OP agreeing with or even acknowledging them. There is a difference between venting, and cherrypicking responses.
Title: Re: Offering unwanted advice or perspectives
Post by: Scuba_Dog on October 11, 2010, 02:43:20 PM
There is nothing “play-groundish” about reporting a violation.  If you look at the other threads in this area, you will see that most of them conclude with that suggestion. 

I have a question though.  Aren’t these threads sort of PA, in and of themselves?  Do they seem gossipy and preachy to anyone else?  Or even like venting/ranting?

I guess I’m bothered by the idea of using this folder to vent about the posting style of other members of the forum.  I think if you don’t like the posting style of a person or people, you could address that with them via PM. 

There’s something about coming here and saying “Certain posters” do this and it’s rude.  Or, “Things were said in a thread I don’t want to name, and I thought it was rude.”  I mean, how can anyone *really* know what or who you are talking about to make a clear assessment? 

And then, it seems like some people know what/who you’re talking about but others don’t, so then it’s like some sort of “insider” information between a select few participants of the thread.  Then some people are commenting about the specifics and others in general terms.  Wouldn’t it be easier to just review the rules and report to a MOD if you feel there is a violation?  Or, use one of the two rules quoted earlier?

I’m probably not expressing this right, but in general, these threads feel really off to me, especially here.  It’s only my opinion, YMMV, of course.


Title: Re: Offering unwanted advice or perspectives
Post by: Granny Takes a Trip on October 11, 2010, 02:48:34 PM
There is nothing “play-groundish” about reporting a violation.  If you look at the other threads in this area, you will see that most of them conclude with that suggestion. 

I have a question though.  Aren’t these threads sort of PA, in and of themselves?  Do they seem gossipy and preachy to anyone else?  Or even like venting/ranting?

I guess I’m bothered by the idea of using this folder to vent about the posting style of other members of the forum.  I think if you don’t like the posting style of a person or people, you could address that with them via PM. 

There’s something about coming here and saying “Certain posters” do this and it’s rude.  Or, “Things were said in a thread I don’t want to name, and I thought it was rude.”  I mean, how can anyone *really* know what or who you are talking about to make a clear assessment? 

And then, it seems like some people know what/who you’re talking about but others don’t, so then it’s like some sort of “insider” information between a select few participants of the thread.  Then some people are commenting about the specifics and others in general terms.  Wouldn’t it be easier to just review the rules and report to a MOD if you feel there is a violation?  Or, use one of the two rules quoted earlier?

I’m probably not expressing this right, but in general, these threads feel really off to me, especially here.  It’s only my opinion, YMMV, of course.




I don't feel that way at all. I am also far from the first poster to start such a thread. I also am not talking about particular posters, but rather a trend.
Title: Re: Offering unwanted advice or perspectives
Post by: Lisbeth on October 11, 2010, 02:49:16 PM
There is nothing “play-groundish” about reporting a violation.  If you look at the other threads in this area, you will see that most of them conclude with that suggestion.  

I have a question though.  Aren’t these threads sort of PA, in and of themselves?  Do they seem gossipy and preachy to anyone else?  Or even like venting/ranting?

I guess I’m bothered by the idea of using this folder to vent about the posting style of other members of the forum.  I think if you don’t like the posting style of a person or people, you could address that with them via PM.  

There’s something about coming here and saying “Certain posters” do this and it’s rude.  Or, “Things were said in a thread I don’t want to name, and I thought it was rude.”  I mean, how can anyone *really* know what or who you are talking about to make a clear assessment?  

And then, it seems like some people know what/who you’re talking about but others don’t, so then it’s like some sort of “insider” information between a select few participants of the thread.  Then some people are commenting about the specifics and others in general terms.  Wouldn’t it be easier to just review the rules and report to a MOD if you feel there is a violation?  Or, use one of the two rules quoted earlier?

I’m probably not expressing this right, but in general, these threads feel really off to me, especially here.  It’s only my opinion, YMMV, of course.

I think some of the reason people don't report things to the moderators is because the moderators would prefer that we posters handle it as much as possible, and because it can (not always, but can) smack to them of "Maaaaaaaaaaammmmmmmmmmmaaaaaaaa, Poster hurt my feelings!" which is childish and immature.  

Also, I think that those of us who have problems with the phrasings that get used would simply rather the people who use those phrasings understand the effects they can have but don't really want to cause trouble for other posters-they just want them to stop posting things that have negative effects on them or, at least, posting in negative ways.  

Plus, since people come and go from the forum, it could be helpful to let new people (and returning old people who haven't posted for a while) know about issues and things that are sticky points by means of these threads.
Title: Re: Offering unwanted advice or perspectives
Post by: jimithing on October 11, 2010, 02:49:32 PM
There is nothing “play-groundish” about reporting a violation.  If you look at the other threads in this area, you will see that most of them conclude with that suggestion. 

I have a question though.  Aren’t these threads sort of PA, in and of themselves?  Do they seem gossipy and preachy to anyone else?  Or even like venting/ranting?

I guess I’m bothered by the idea of using this folder to vent about the posting style of other members of the forum.  I think if you don’t like the posting style of a person or people, you could address that with them via PM. 

There’s something about coming here and saying “Certain posters” do this and it’s rude.  Or, “Things were said in a thread I don’t want to name, and I thought it was rude.”  I mean, how can anyone *really* know what or who you are talking about to make a clear assessment? 

And then, it seems like some people know what/who you’re talking about but others don’t, so then it’s like some sort of “insider” information between a select few participants of the thread.  Then some people are commenting about the specifics and others in general terms.  Wouldn’t it be easier to just review the rules and report to a MOD if you feel there is a violation?  Or, use one of the two rules quoted earlier?

I’m probably not expressing this right, but in general, these threads feel really off to me, especially here.  It’s only my opinion, YMMV, of course.


I agree. And it seems like there have been a few of these kinds of threads, recently.

OP, I saw a recent thread where you told a person they were being "judgey." I'm not sure how that's any different than telling a poster that they are overreacting or being too sensitive. FWIW, I didn't think your tone was rude, or that it was out of line for you to say that, but that feels very similar to me to what you have brought up here.
Title: Re: Offering unwanted advice or perspectives
Post by: Scuba_Dog on October 11, 2010, 02:54:21 PM
There is nothing “play-groundish” about reporting a violation.  If you look at the other threads in this area, you will see that most of them conclude with that suggestion. 

I have a question though.  Aren’t these threads sort of PA, in and of themselves?  Do they seem gossipy and preachy to anyone else?  Or even like venting/ranting?

I guess I’m bothered by the idea of using this folder to vent about the posting style of other members of the forum.  I think if you don’t like the posting style of a person or people, you could address that with them via PM. 

There’s something about coming here and saying “Certain posters” do this and it’s rude.  Or, “Things were said in a thread I don’t want to name, and I thought it was rude.”  I mean, how can anyone *really* know what or who you are talking about to make a clear assessment? 

And then, it seems like some people know what/who you’re talking about but others don’t, so then it’s like some sort of “insider” information between a select few participants of the thread.  Then some people are commenting about the specifics and others in general terms.  Wouldn’t it be easier to just review the rules and report to a MOD if you feel there is a violation?  Or, use one of the two rules quoted earlier?

I’m probably not expressing this right, but in general, these threads feel really off to me, especially here.  It’s only my opinion, YMMV, of course.




I don't feel that way at all. I am also far from the first poster to start such a thread. I also am not talking about particular posters, but rather a trend.

But, you are talking about certain posters, otherwise what would you be posting about?  If it's a trend, it's a trend you see in the postings of certain people.  You have even referenced a thread, that you don't want to identify, but have acknowledged with another participant in this thread.  

LAC, I think you can place your trust in the very capable hands of the Moderators, who I'm sure, if they notice a rude trend, will nip it in the bud.


Title: Re: Offering unwanted advice or perspectives
Post by: Scuba_Dog on October 11, 2010, 02:57:03 PM
There is nothing “play-groundish” about reporting a violation.  If you look at the other threads in this area, you will see that most of them conclude with that suggestion.  

I have a question though.  Aren’t these threads sort of PA, in and of themselves?  Do they seem gossipy and preachy to anyone else?  Or even like venting/ranting?

I guess I’m bothered by the idea of using this folder to vent about the posting style of other members of the forum.  I think if you don’t like the posting style of a person or people, you could address that with them via PM.  

There’s something about coming here and saying “Certain posters” do this and it’s rude.  Or, “Things were said in a thread I don’t want to name, and I thought it was rude.”  I mean, how can anyone *really* know what or who you are talking about to make a clear assessment?  

And then, it seems like some people know what/who you’re talking about but others don’t, so then it’s like some sort of “insider” information between a select few participants of the thread.  Then some people are commenting about the specifics and others in general terms.  Wouldn’t it be easier to just review the rules and report to a MOD if you feel there is a violation?  Or, use one of the two rules quoted earlier?

I’m probably not expressing this right, but in general, these threads feel really off to me, especially here.  It’s only my opinion, YMMV, of course.

I think some of the reason people don't report things to the moderators is because the moderators would prefer that we posters handle it as much as possible, and because it can (not always, but can) smack to them of "Maaaaaaaaaaammmmmmmmmmmaaaaaaaa, Poster hurt my feelings!" which is childish and immature.  

Also, I think that those of us who have problems with the phrasings that get used would simply rather the people who use those phrasings understand the effects they can have but don't really want to cause trouble for other posters-they just want them to stop posting things that have negative effects on them or, at least, posting in negative ways.  

Plus, since people come and go from the forum, it could be helpful to let new people (and returning old people who haven't posted for a while) know about issues and things that are sticky points by means of these threads.

RE, the bolded.  Which is why I also added in the two very valuable forum rules about irritating people and the Coke rule.  Use those, if you think the post goes beyond even those rules, then report it.
Title: Re: Offering unwanted advice or perspectives
Post by: Granny Takes a Trip on October 11, 2010, 02:57:40 PM
There is nothing “play-groundish” about reporting a violation.  If you look at the other threads in this area, you will see that most of them conclude with that suggestion. 

I have a question though.  Aren’t these threads sort of PA, in and of themselves?  Do they seem gossipy and preachy to anyone else?  Or even like venting/ranting?

I guess I’m bothered by the idea of using this folder to vent about the posting style of other members of the forum.  I think if you don’t like the posting style of a person or people, you could address that with them via PM. 

There’s something about coming here and saying “Certain posters” do this and it’s rude.  Or, “Things were said in a thread I don’t want to name, and I thought it was rude.”  I mean, how can anyone *really* know what or who you are talking about to make a clear assessment? 

And then, it seems like some people know what/who you’re talking about but others don’t, so then it’s like some sort of “insider” information between a select few participants of the thread.  Then some people are commenting about the specifics and others in general terms.  Wouldn’t it be easier to just review the rules and report to a MOD if you feel there is a violation?  Or, use one of the two rules quoted earlier?

I’m probably not expressing this right, but in general, these threads feel really off to me, especially here.  It’s only my opinion, YMMV, of course.


I agree. And it seems like there have been a few of these kinds of threads, recently.

OP, I saw a recent thread where you told a person they were being "judgey." I'm not sure how that's any different than telling a poster that they are overreacting or being too sensitive. FWIW, I didn't think your tone was rude, or that it was out of line for you to say that, but that feels very similar to me to what you have brought up here.

Touche :) I'm actually quite enjoying this discussion, BTW. I certainly didn't start it to be contentious or unpleasant, so I hope no one took it that way.  For a start, I don't actually think it is rude to say someone is too sensitive. I think it is a bit off to say it without a full explanation of why, though. In my 'judgey' post, I gave a long explanation.
Title: Re: Offering unwanted advice or perspectives
Post by: Granny Takes a Trip on October 11, 2010, 03:00:34 PM
There is nothing “play-groundish” about reporting a violation.  If you look at the other threads in this area, you will see that most of them conclude with that suggestion. 

I have a question though.  Aren’t these threads sort of PA, in and of themselves?  Do they seem gossipy and preachy to anyone else?  Or even like venting/ranting?

I guess I’m bothered by the idea of using this folder to vent about the posting style of other members of the forum.  I think if you don’t like the posting style of a person or people, you could address that with them via PM. 

There’s something about coming here and saying “Certain posters” do this and it’s rude.  Or, “Things were said in a thread I don’t want to name, and I thought it was rude.”  I mean, how can anyone *really* know what or who you are talking about to make a clear assessment? 

And then, it seems like some people know what/who you’re talking about but others don’t, so then it’s like some sort of “insider” information between a select few participants of the thread.  Then some people are commenting about the specifics and others in general terms.  Wouldn’t it be easier to just review the rules and report to a MOD if you feel there is a violation?  Or, use one of the two rules quoted earlier?

I’m probably not expressing this right, but in general, these threads feel really off to me, especially here.  It’s only my opinion, YMMV, of course.




I don't feel that way at all. I am also far from the first poster to start such a thread. I also am not talking about particular posters, but rather a trend.

But, you are talking about certain posters, otherwise what would you be posting about?  If it's a trend, it's a trend you see in the postings of certain people.  You have even referenced a thread, that you don't want to identify, but have acknowledged with another participant in this thread.  

LAC, I think you can place your trust in the very capable hands of the Moderators, who I'm sure, if they notice a rude trend, will nip it in the bud.




Yes, but I am not talking about 'repeat offenders', kwim? I mean, it is a trend, but not the same people doing it again and again, in which case I would quite agree that it would be PA to post a thread about. In general though, I think your advice about mods is good, and it is something I had not considered, so thank you :)
Title: Re: Offering unwanted advice or perspectives
Post by: DangerMouth on October 11, 2010, 03:07:46 PM
I'm not even sure what your point is in starting this thread, anymore. It's an internet forum. We try to stay on topic and post our opinions politely. Mostly that happens.

Sometimes people get so caught up passionately defending their opinions, they may forget to be polite. When that happens, there are ways of dealing with it: you can choose to post a gentle reminder, or you can report to mods.

I can, off the top of my head, think of 4 threads in the past week or so where the OP was told she was over-reacting. Two were pretty much unanimous that this was so, one was split about 50%, and the other was about 90% for 'over-reacting'. In none of these threads did I notice any egregious rudeness (tho it's possible I missed something).

But the point is there is absolutely nothing wrong with saying, "I don't see it that way, I think you are over-reacting", even if the poster doesn't go onto explain for 4 paragraphs why they feel this way. And even if that poster is the only one on a 12 page thread to say it. Sure, you can then look at the post and think, feel, or even say, "IMO, that wasn't very usefull advice", but there is still nothing wrong with someone stating that "IMO, this isn't rude, or my hill to die on."

In fact, I'm going to say it now, about this whole thread: I don't see it that way, I think you are over-reacting.

ETA: 8 new posts while I was typing. Totally podding Scuba Dog.
Title: Re: Offering unwanted advice or perspectives
Post by: Allyson on October 11, 2010, 03:10:11 PM

Good point. However, I still think that if the dissenting poster has seen that they are in a minority, they need to build their argument a little more, and explain. Again, the threads I am thinking of (which I did not actually post in) had a very brusque 'post and run' feel.

Hmm...not trying to be contentious here, I might genuinely not understand. Why would it matter whether or not the poster is in a minority? I mean..why would it be better for a poster to say 'hey, you're overreacting' (or whatever the exact phrase) if other people have given advice, than if everyone else has agreed it's not worth reacting to. I think it's good for people to be able to disagree with the consensus, even if it's not something that some people would find useful. Gives a variety of perspectives, and such.
Title: Re: Offering unwanted advice or perspectives
Post by: Scuba_Dog on October 11, 2010, 03:14:12 PM
There is nothing “play-groundish” about reporting a violation.  If you look at the other threads in this area, you will see that most of them conclude with that suggestion.  

I have a question though.  Aren’t these threads sort of PA, in and of themselves?  Do they seem gossipy and preachy to anyone else?  Or even like venting/ranting?

I guess I’m bothered by the idea of using this folder to vent about the posting style of other members of the forum.  I think if you don’t like the posting style of a person or people, you could address that with them via PM.  

There’s something about coming here and saying “Certain posters” do this and it’s rude.  Or, “Things were said in a thread I don’t want to name, and I thought it was rude.”  I mean, how can anyone *really* know what or who you are talking about to make a clear assessment?  

And then, it seems like some people know what/who you’re talking about but others don’t, so then it’s like some sort of “insider” information between a select few participants of the thread.  Then some people are commenting about the specifics and others in general terms.  Wouldn’t it be easier to just review the rules and report to a MOD if you feel there is a violation?  Or, use one of the two rules quoted earlier?

I’m probably not expressing this right, but in general, these threads feel really off to me, especially here.  It’s only my opinion, YMMV, of course.


I agree. And it seems like there have been a few of these kinds of threads, recently.

OP, I saw a recent thread where you told a person they were being "judgey." I'm not sure how that's any different than telling a poster that they are overreacting or being too sensitive. FWIW, I didn't think your tone was rude, or that it was out of line for you to say that, but that feels very similar to me to what you have brought up here.

Touche :) I'm actually quite enjoying this discussion, BTW. I certainly didn't start it to be contentious or unpleasant, so I hope no one took it that way.  For a start, I don't actually think it is rude to say someone is too sensitive. I think it is a bit off to say it without a full explanation of why, though. In my 'judgey' post, I gave a long explanation.

So, if someone says something purposefully rude, but then gives an explanation, it's OK?  

edited.  I've said what I wanted to and what I had added probably wasn't necessary.
Title: Re: Offering unwanted advice or perspectives
Post by: DangerMouth on October 11, 2010, 03:15:55 PM

Good point. However, I still think that if the dissenting poster has seen that they are in a minority, they need to build their argument a little more, and explain. Again, the threads I am thinking of (which I did not actually post in) had a very brusque 'post and run' feel.

Hmm...not trying to be contentious here, I might genuinely not understand. Why would it matter whether or not the poster is in a minority? I mean..why would it be better for a poster to say 'hey, you're overreacting' (or whatever the exact phrase) if other people have given advice, than if everyone else has agreed it's not worth reacting to. I think it's good for people to be able to disagree with the consensus, even if it's not something that some people would find useful. Gives a variety of perspectives, and such.

Something I've seen a number of times: Op makes a post. First dozen posts are all happy agreement. Then somebody posts a dissenting opinion, and all of a sudden, others, who might have been hesitant about bucking the trend, jump in with similar dissenting opinions. But I agree that even it's just one person, there's nothing wrong with a dissenting opinion, as long as it's done politely.
Title: Re: Offering unwanted advice or perspectives
Post by: hyzenthlay on October 11, 2010, 03:27:43 PM
Something I've seen a number of times: Op makes a post. First dozen posts are all happy agreement. Then somebody posts a dissenting opinion, and all of a sudden, others, who might have been hesitant about bucking the trend, jump in with similar dissenting opinions. But I agree that even it's just one person, there's nothing wrong with a dissenting opinion, as long as it's done politely.

Yep. Sometimes there's a bit of group think, and one dissent leads to a whole other perspective on the situation. And sometimes the dissent leads to more moderate suggestions and better plans of action.

Scaling back from 'initiate the CUT-DIRECT' to 'practice being cool and polite.'
Title: Re: Offering unwanted advice or perspectives
Post by: Shoo on October 11, 2010, 03:49:16 PM
I don't feel that way at all. I am also far from the first poster to start such a thread. I also am not talking about particular posters, but rather a trend.

This "trend" is not new.  I've been on the forum for several years, and this is just how it has pretty much always been.  It is generally understood that when one asks for advice, one takes the good with the bad.  There always have been (and will probably always be) posters whose tones are more abrupt or short than others.  I know that for myself, I don't tend to write with a lot of flourish and I don't approach every situation with kid gloves.  And I don't think I'm all that unusual.

Title: Re: Offering unwanted advice or perspectives
Post by: Bibliophile on October 11, 2010, 03:55:46 PM
I don't feel that way at all. I am also far from the first poster to start such a thread. I also am not talking about particular posters, but rather a trend.

This "trend" is not new.  I've been on the forum for several years, and this is just how it has pretty much always been.  It is generally understood that when one asks for advice, one takes the good with the bad.  There always have been (and will probably always be) posters whose tones are more abrupt or short than others.  I know that for myself, I don't tend to write with a lot of flourish and I don't approach every situation with kid gloves.  And I don't think I'm all that unusual.

POD.  I find often that sometimes it's easy to misread an intent behind a short post.  Sometimes the person posting just doesn't think to add a bunch of back story, but I wouldn't consider it to be rude.  It's perfectly fine to be the first one in the thread to disagree with everyone else - as long as everyone on both sides sticks to being "polite" about it.
Title: Re: Offering unwanted advice or perspectives
Post by: NOVA Lady on October 11, 2010, 04:01:49 PM
I honestly do not think its rude, that when someone posts and is all upset about what to most is a non-issue that people say that.

If they are asking for advice on how to handle a rudeness and others do not think what happened is rude at all... well then thats the advice.

If someone does not want disagreement and just wants people to agree with them in the "oh how awful for you!" manner...then maybe the I Need a Hug folder is the way to go.

For example:

OP: I was walking down the road and someone crossed the street right before walking by me. Thats incredibly rude and really hurt my feelings. How to handle?

Reply: Is there some background? Do you know the person?

OP: No...it was a stranger, but I just hate being snubbed and ignored like that because _____ in my past.

Reply: Well, you have no way of knowing why they crossed, I understand that you might have some personal things going on that make this a sensitive issue, but its really not rude to cross the street when about to pass someone.

If its something like that, then I think its just part of why we post on here...to get other opinions and advice. Thats sort of a given when posting here.
Title: Re: Offering unwanted advice or perspectives
Post by: JoieGirl7 on October 11, 2010, 04:05:41 PM
I don't feel that way at all. I am also far from the first poster to start such a thread. I also am not talking about particular posters, but rather a trend.

This "trend" is not new.  I've been on the forum for several years, and this is just how it has pretty much always been.  It is generally understood that when one asks for advice, one takes the good with the bad.  There always have been (and will probably always be) posters whose tones are more abrupt or short than others.  I know that for myself, I don't tend to write with a lot of flourish and I don't approach every situation with kid gloves.  And I don't think I'm all that unusual.

POD.

The trend that I have noticed is more civility; people don't let their feathers get as ruffled as often and there seem to be a lot fewer threads closed because of contentious argument.