News: IT'S THE 2ND ANNUAL GUATEMALA LIBRARY PROJECT BOOK DRIVE!    LOOKING FOR DONATIONS OF SCIENCE BOOKS THIS YEAR.    Check it out in the "Extending the Hand of Kindness" folder or here: http://www.etiquettehell.com/smf/index.php?topic=139832.msg3372084#msg3372084   

  • November 20, 2017, 10:38:49 PM

Login with username, password and session length

Author Topic: Displaying "rude" items in your own home Updates: pgs 1,2,5,12  (Read 84052 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Wordgeek

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2407
Re: Displaying "rude" items in your own home Updates: pgs 1,2,5,12
« Reply #465 on: August 25, 2011, 12:25:13 PM »
I've removed several posts that did not follow the guidelines I posted.  I repeat, each person may only represent their own religious position.  If you are an atheist, outline an atheist POV. And so on.

 Any more violations and the thread will be closed.  That would be a shame, since this has, until now, been an enlightening and interesting discussion.

Sterling

  • Member
  • Posts: 2901
    • Oh Stupid Me- Blogs about Things That Drive Me Crazy
Re: Displaying "rude" items in your own home Updates: pgs 1,2,5,12
« Reply #466 on: August 25, 2011, 01:24:27 PM »
Vall Thank you.  That was much better than what I said and it is exactly what I meant.

My home is where I go to be safe and be me.  I don't want to have to hide who I am in my own home. 
93 93/93

boxy

  • Member
  • Posts: 1037
Re: Displaying "rude" items in your own home Updates: pgs 1,2,5,12
« Reply #467 on: August 25, 2011, 04:54:01 PM »
I grew up without religion.  I created one of my own but it didn't do a whole lot for me.  Then I was introduced to Religion X.  I was taught that there was horrible punishment for doing certain things.  When I met people who didn't believe Religion X, I became argumentative and forceful.  The problem was that I was scared for them.  I mean, I was really scared that if I didn't get them to sign on with Religion X then I would be responsible for the dire consequences they would face.  I guess I wonder if people cram their religion down other people's throats because they're genuinely concerned, but they're just going about it oh so wrong.  KWIM?

Thankfully I've moved past that fear and like I said in an earlier post, I've really enjoyed learning more about different viewpoints. 

StressedGroom

  • Member
  • Posts: 1701
  • Mr. Goblue2539
Re: Displaying "rude" items in your own home Updates: pgs 1,2,5,12
« Reply #468 on: August 26, 2011, 09:38:45 AM »
I grew up without religion.  I created one of my own but it didn't do a whole lot for me.  Then I was introduced to Religion X.  I was taught that there was horrible punishment for doing certain things.  When I met people who didn't believe Religion X, I became argumentative and forceful.  The problem was that I was scared for them.  I mean, I was really scared that if I didn't get them to sign on with Religion X then I would be responsible for the dire consequences they would face.  I guess I wonder if people cram their religion down other people's throats because they're genuinely concerned, but they're just going about it oh so wrong.  KWIM?

Thankfully I've moved past that fear and like I said in an earlier post, I've really enjoyed learning more about different viewpoints.

We had a blow up with my sisters in laws and what you just said was what bothered me the most.  They are X, we are Y and only X's go to heaven.  My sister converted to X before the wedding for BIL's grandmother.  BIL was never an observant X and really could care less, so after ensuring all the kids went through the appropriate X rituals, my sister went back to being Y, and BIL found out he enjoyed Y more than X, so he started going with my sister.  His parents would rather he was a non-observant X than a practicing Y and felt my sister was the Y hussy who pulled him from X.  We were all wonderful people, but since we weren't X we were going to hell, her MIL hoped we would see the err of our ways before it was too late.

If we were wonderful people who you loved and you were convinced we were going to hell, why didn't you try to convert us?  Not that I would have been happy if she tried, it just seemed weird and somewhat hypocritical of her.

Ginya

  • Member
  • Posts: 163
Re: Displaying "rude" items in your own home Updates: pgs 1,2,5,12
« Reply #469 on: August 26, 2011, 12:27:23 PM »
I grew up without religion.  I created one of my own but it didn't do a whole lot for me.  Then I was introduced to Religion X.  I was taught that there was horrible punishment for doing certain things.  When I met people who didn't believe Religion X, I became argumentative and forceful.  The problem was that I was scared for them.  I mean, I was really scared that if I didn't get them to sign on with Religion X then I would be responsible for the dire consequences they would face. I guess I wonder if people cram their religion down other people's throats because they're genuinely concerned, but they're just going about it oh so wrong.  KWIM?

Thankfully I've moved past that fear and like I said in an earlier post, I've really enjoyed learning more about different viewpoints.

This reminds me of my step sister when were about 13ish. She lived with her mom and step dad, they married when we were about 6ish and step dad was very devout member of X religion and so they became devout member of X religion and she even went to X religion school. She came to visit us for the summer and one of the conditions for this visit was she had to continue going to X service every week. The first service our Dad went with her and apparently at some point during the service didn't do a hand gesture properly. She became extremely distraught because she thought that Dad would be punished for not doing the hand gesture properly, she was scared to the point of hysterics begging Dad to do X gestures so he might be forgiven. Eventually we calmed her down and she's since found other beliefs but the experience of seeing her like that really stuck with me.

Knitterly

  • Member
  • Posts: 1515
    • That other knitting blog
Re: Displaying "rude" items in your own home Updates: pgs 1,2,5,12
« Reply #470 on: August 26, 2011, 01:36:33 PM »
The religion that I follow is a minority religion.  That generally doesn't bother me because I've always lived in a society where my beliefs aren't mainstream.  All around me, I see references to the mainstream religion.  Everywhere I go---at work, out in public, friends, family, etc.  References are made about the general concepts of that religion such as afterlife places, judgement day, sin, etc.  There are phrases that reference the mainstream religion's stories and the characters in those stories.  For example, if it has rained for several days, people may say they are going to build an ark or are watching for the animals to walk two-by-two.

None of these things bother me and I fully expect these references because the majority of people believe (at least marginally) in the mainstream religion.  I use the references myself even though I've never actually read the stories.  I may say that I'm feeling as old as Moses even though I haven't a clue how old he was supposed to have been.

I learned at a young age not to mention my own beliefs in public.  When asked by a teacher what my favorite holiday was, I was told that it wasn't a "real" holiday and to choose something like Christmas or Easter.  I've been yelled at and insulted countless time over the years.  So I don't talk about my beliefs except in very vague terms.  I've had people unknowing say, "Nobody worships (deity name) anymore" and my mind screams, "Yes, they do.  I do!" but I don't say anything.

Although it is illegal, people still lose their jobs because they believe in the "wrong" religion.  It has happened to me twice in my lifetime, even though I refused to admit exactly what my religion was.  An assumption and accusation was made and then I was suddenly let go for a different reason.  It's hard to prove discrimination and I'm not the type of person to pursue that anyway.

So, what does all this have to do with the topic?  My home is the only place where I feel relaxed enough to express my own core beliefs.  This 1500 sq ft of space is "my space". I get a bit defensive about the idea of changing that too so that I don't offend anyone with what I believe.  This is the only place that I have where I can be me without having to worry about being different from the crowd and possibly offending someone.

Those who don't like my beliefs have the whole world where they can express themselves and I'm fine with that.  I'll keep my own beliefs to myself in other places, and I'm okay with that.  But within this 1500 sq ft of space, it's mine.  When it's down to the wire, in my own home, I really don't care if someone is offended by my religious beliefs.  This is where I draw the line.


I don't have banners and neon signs in my home declaring my personal beliefs.  But if someone knew what they were looking for, they'd notice the statues, symbols and the many books on my shelves.  Yes, these items could be offensive to certain people who expect me to believe differently than I do.  Other than to try to be careful about whom I invite to my home, I really don't care if someone decides to be offended.  Expecting me to remove the possibly offending items before guests arrive is asking for more than I can do.

If I were the OP, this is a time when I'd have to dig my heels in and firmly stand my ground.

This is a beautifully written post!!  I really love this and agree with you wholeheartedly!!  I bolded the two parts that I really love the most.  It just sums up everything perfectly!!

Garden Goblin

  • Member
  • Posts: 722
Re: Displaying "rude" items in your own home Updates: pgs 1,2,5,12
« Reply #471 on: August 26, 2011, 02:28:47 PM »
I am an atheist.  My mother in law is Jewish.

Right now, I am 2000 miles from home, helping my MiL while she is in the hospital, getting her house packed up, taking care of her business issues, making sure she is treated well, and making the arrangements for her move to the assisted living facility.

And the response of most of the folks when they learn this? 

'Oh, what a good Christian thing to do!"

I'd like to wear a shirt that says 'Atheist' in big bold letters just to make the point that good doesn't automatically equal Christian and vice-versa.  It's not worth the fight right now, not with my MiL being as fragile as she is, but it is frustrating to have these assumptions made about me, especially since it comes with the underlying attitude of 'if you aren't Christian, you are probably up to something'.

Eisa

  • Thread Killer Extraordinaire
  • Member
  • Posts: 1471
Re: Displaying "rude" items in your own home Updates: pgs 1,2,5,12
« Reply #472 on: August 26, 2011, 03:49:53 PM »
I don't really know what my own religious is anymore. I was raised practically fundamentalist Christian. I don't go to church anymore, but it did amuse me about a year or so back when I was talking to a friend who's an atheist now about how she and her mother went to a church here and refused to continue because "it felt like a cult." What church did she go? The church I used to. :P It did very much instill fear and use other tactics like that. It was very restrictive. I'm glad I don't go anymore.

Anyway, I'm interested now in a lot of different kinds of religion and spirituality [I'm interested in Wicca, for instance]. I believe there is Something/Someone out there, it's just figuring out the rest. But I hate when people cram their own religion down your throat, no matter what it is. I don't think that's what trying to convert someone means. If someone isn't interested, they aren't interested...something I wish a few of the missionaries around here would learn. :P
"And neither the angels in heaven above, nor the demons down under the sea can ever dissever my soul from the soul of the beautiful Annabel Lee"
Idaho

Firecat

  • Member
  • Posts: 2683
Re: Displaying "rude" items in your own home Updates: pgs 1,2,5,12
« Reply #473 on: August 26, 2011, 04:08:17 PM »
Maybe i can give some insight on militant atheism/anti-theism...or at least give perspective on why some atheists are just as extreme as some religious people.

I am an atheist, but I was raised Catholic.  My entire family is very Catholic.  When I told my parents I didn't believe in their religion anymore (it was like a triple whammy, I was moving across the country, my BF was coming with me and going to live with me-they don't like him and don't approve of living together before marriage) my dad said he would rather me be addicted to drugs than not have any religion.  I was so upset and told him he must not know anyone with a drug addiction, but I did and I knew someone who had died from it and how dare he say that..oh it was a rant of epic proportions, I think it shocked him when I came at him like that because usually we got along okay...I wasn't much of a tantrum thrower at that age.  In hindsight, it was pretty disrespectful  :-[

Anyway, when I first de-converted, I was a freshman in college, but I had been questioning for awhile.  I was in my church's youth group all through high school, and up through junior year I was really into it, mostly for the sense of community it provided.  I disagreed with some teachings and agreed with others, I think that's normal though.  Senior year of high school, it was like the spell broke, I started reading other things and making my own conclusions until I finally decided for myself what to believe the following year.  And..I became angry.  I was ANGRY that my parents had forced their religion on me and were unwilling to hear alternative points of view.  I was angry that so many horrible things were done in the name of religion.  I was angry that some of my friends were, in my view, so closed minded with their political and moral beliefs.  BF's parents are fundamentalist christians, and their views were even more conservative and extreme than my parents'.  I was angry at the way they treated him too, although I doubt it was all religiously motivated.  I could not understand why anyone sane or rational would choose a religion.  A lot of my blog entries reflected this, I ranted and raved about how horrible religion and believing in anything was.  I'm kinda amazed my religious friends kept me around--I was not a pleasant person to be around.  I stayed that way for a couple years, then I calmed down and saw things more rationally.  Being of any religion (or not) doesn't make you a good or bad person, it's just a part of you.  It helps to shape who you are.  Sometimes it does cause people to do horrible thigns, but it doesn't mean everyone in that religion is that way.  And it's certainly not a measure of intelligence.

Now I LOVE learning about other religions, they fascinate me.  However, i have a good friend who is very much anti-theism and he never got past the anger stage.  I know how he feels, he feels the same as I did in the above paragraph.  I totally understand.  But it makes talking to him hard sometimes, because he is just as extreme an atheist as my one extreme  christian friend who sided with my parents when I told her how they reacted and were acting towards me after they learned BF was moving with me.  And sometimes it's pretty hard to talk to her too.  I think they both know how they come across to people but in their opinion, they're in the right...so to them, they're not doing anything wrong.

Maybe that is not the same as everyones' experiences...and I am sorry for the length, but I hope it sorta made sense.

I think this raises some excellent points, too. I think a number of folks who convert to pagan religions go through an anger stage, too. I know I did, although I mostly kept it to myself (possibly because this was before the Internet got really huge, so blogs and such weren't as popular and available). But I've seen it with other folks, too, and I've seen some who haven't seemed to move past it, yet.

I can remember thinking and saying some pretty derogatory things about Christianity (although I try not to do that anymore, or if I do have something negative to say, I try to be very specific that I'm saying it about extremists and/or a specific person or group).

And I will admit to a certain feeling of caution or a need to be careful about how much I reveal about my own beliefs when meeting or dealing with members of more major religions. It kind of makes me feel a little sad that I need to be concerned about possible negative reactions, and that I feel the need to be careful about the contexts in which I openly wear a pentacle.

NestHolder

  • Member
  • Posts: 1213
Re: Displaying "rude" items in your own home Updates: pgs 1,2,5,12
« Reply #474 on: August 26, 2011, 06:15:46 PM »
Shoo said (a while back):

It's different, though, because part of a lot of "faiths" compel their followers to "spread the word."  To convert others.  Atheism doesn't have these tenants, so what compels an atheist to try to spread the word to others?  Or to otherwise advertise his/her non-belief?  Again I ask, what is the point?  There must be a point or people wouldn't do it.

and subsequently

No, of course not.  I think there's a difference between taking a stand regarding something you actually believe in and taking a stand regarding something you *don't* believe in.  One, I can see the point.  The other, I can't really see the point.

I appreciate everyone's attempts to enlighten me.  I have to admit that I'm still not completely clear on it.


Since atheism isn't an organised, er, organisation, you're right in saying that it doesn't have any requirement to 'spread the word'.  However. 

The way I see it is: there are different kinds of atheist, just as there are different kinds of religious adherent—I don't mean different religious, but different levels of personal approach to religion.  A tolerant, live-and-let-live Catholic may have more in common with a tolerant live-and-let-live Muslim than with a fiercely 'absolutist' Catholic, in many respects.

As for us atheists, some simply have no interest in any kind of god or religion, and just ignore it all.  Others may have a firmer opinion, but keep quiet for the sake of peace.  (I sat through my father's Catholic funeral feeling *angry* at so many of the things that were said, because I did not believe them.  It was a painful experience.  But it comforted his widow.)

Other atheists regard religious belief as actively harmful—either because it directly causes harm, and/or because it is simply not true—and feel that it is important to speak out against religious belief for that reason.  Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchins, PZ Myers etc are in this group.  Dawkins, for instance, as a biologist, finds the particular religious position which opposes the theory of evolution to be wrong, and something which needs to be argued against.  So he does.

I don't think atheism can be defined as necessarily negative.  It's true that some people simply don't believe in God.  Other people believe that there is no god.  I think there's a difference.  Some atheists have a positive belief in a universe which can be explained by entirely rational and non-supernatural means.  And they take a stand on it.  I think this probably equates pretty well to people who are certain of the existence of their god(s).

Wordgeek

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2407
Re: Displaying "rude" items in your own home Updates: pgs 1,2,5,12
« Reply #475 on: August 26, 2011, 07:10:12 PM »
This seems like a good note to end on.


Sorry, this topic is locked. Only admins and moderators can reply.