Not Being Allowed to Attend a Party as a Punishment

[freakyfemme]

I don't do the party grounding as a rule, because it does affect the hosts at the last minute, which violates a cardinal family rule. Usually I just extend the actual grounding/no computer/no tv/etc, etc at home period instead.

Sleepovers and other casual outings--You bet. My older daughter said at the last one, "But that's unfair to Friend." I said, "Well, that's another unfortunate consequence of your behavior. It affects other people negatively, too. So you need to make better choices next time."

If her behavior was egregious enough, however, I'd take away the party as well. And thankfully, her friends' mothers would be supportive.

We've had the enlightening experience of watching another  dancer, a very gifted one,  derail because of her horrible attitude, as enabled by her mother, and missing a party is far less serious in the long run than missing a scholarship.

Actually, I was meaning to ask you about that....do you ever ground your daughter from performances (or even from dancing altogether) for behaviour?  My mom's favourite threat of punishment during high school, and the summer after my first year of university even, was the threat of taking away my music.  At first, when I was in high school (grades 9 through 11, when I had to take math), she'd threaten to call my band teacher and forbid me from going to band practice if I didn't finish my homework, or if I flunked a test (I was awful at math, try as I might), and later on, she'd threaten to take music away as an incentive to get me to lose weight.  Eventually, I did (both--I passed grade 11 math by the skin of my teeth, *and* I'm no longer obese), but I still can't help but wonder if she'd have actually followed through.  I mean, I get a lot of benefit out of music, and then there's the fact that I'm a reasonably decent clarinet player, if I do say so myself, and she actually *enjoys* hearing me play.  Also, preventing me from playing my clarinet or attending rehearsals would have negatively affected my grades, and inconvenienced the other members of the band as well, when I was in high school.

[Balletmom]

Funny you asked, Freaky...

We used the threaten to take away the dance. But over time we realized (and this was much harder for Mr. Balletmom to get) that taking away the dance for anything less than a major transgression (and maybe not then) was counter-productive. We used to threaten it for grades, but we had enough issues with one teacher to realize this year that we might be punishing our child for one teacher's flakiness.

Also, the downsides of taking away a performance--as you said--seem to outweigh anything productive. She would be forever marked in the director's eye as unreliable. Plus, knowing the "backstage" side of it so well, we would know very well what difficulties we were causing everyone else.

We did keep her home from one class this past semester, we were trying to figure out the latest email from Flaky Teacher--a combination of a late paper from Flaky Kid and Flaky Teacher's unique averaging system.
But overall, we don't keep her from dance, and we don't let her stay home from school to recover from dance, either.

Also, now that she's on pointe, she can't really take time off. Two weeks is the limit as far as not stretching/dancing. If she stayed out a month--it would just be the end of her dancing, or a very difficult recovery. So it's not really something we would do at this point unless it was a really serious transgression.

And finally, I think the structure of dance is itself more productive. It's physically exhausting and keeps her out of more trouble. I've seen some horror stories of kids who were cut from high school sports and then just fell apart, so again--it wouldn't accomplish anything good and would hurt more.

It seems to work better to just go in and take her computer keyboard, or her i-pod. (She's lost her cell phone!  Probably somewhere in her room.) The keyboard is much more her "recreational" time since she loves doing graphics. Especially when we say, "We'll just let your teachers know that they need to give you an alternate assignment since you are grounded from the computer."

I'm actually horrified your mother threatened to take away your music if you didn't lose weight. I certainly am not up for parent of the year (if you had seen us throwing a fit in the Ikea parking lot when the older one acted up with the younger one's i-pod you would have certainly called Dr. Phil for an intervention) but I can't believe your mother would take away something you loved and were good at, to "encourage" you in something like losing weight!

I have come to realize that my daughters both have an "identity" in being dancers. It's important to them, they are good at it, and overall, they make good grades. ( The assistant principal said when we getting into Flaky Teacher, "Oh, Balletkid? I know her. She's a good kid.") So while we might have once said "The dance goes at the drop of a hat!" we are much more careful now, because there's a whole lot of bad stuff waiting out there to suck in a kiddo without an identity.

[ZipTheWonder]

it's not very likely that you'd be able to call up your regular babysitter and say, "Hey Babysitter, change of plans, I know we were going to be away this weekend, but can you come up here and get Ptraghvyss, and watch him until Sunday evening? 

I actually usually can get him one a moment's notice, but I recognize not everyone can do that.

Our son is not particularly defiant nor particularly vindictive (but - make no mistake, we wouldn't be having this conversation if he'd never had any misbehavior at all ) So, this isn't really the kind of response I'd expect to be dealing with.  It's purely hypothetical (at least at this point) for me.  If I couldn't make arrangements for that weekend, I'd go some other time...without him.  And, as I said, there are other forms this punishment could have taken.  He could have sat in a hotel room with no activities all weekend, for instance.  But, the choice we made solved the problem for the moment and forever since.  We did it, it was worth, and your (in the generic sense) mileage may vary. 

[freakyfemme]

Funny you asked, Freaky...

We used the threaten to take away the dance. But over time we realized (and this was much harder for Mr. Balletmom to get) that taking away the dance for anything less than a major transgression (and maybe not then) was counter-productive. We used to threaten it for grades, but we had enough issues with one teacher to realize this year that we might be punishing our child for one teacher's flakiness.

Also, the downsides of taking away a performance--as you said--seem to outweigh anything productive. She would be forever marked in the director's eye as unreliable. Plus, knowing the "backstage" side of it so well, we would know very well what difficulties we were causing everyone else.

We did keep her home from one class this past semester, we were trying to figure out the latest email from Flaky Teacher--a combination of a late paper from Flaky Kid and Flaky Teacher's unique averaging system.
But overall, we don't keep her from dance, and we don't let her stay home from school to recover from dance, either.

Also, now that she's on pointe, she can't really take time off. Two weeks is the limit as far as not stretching/dancing. If she stayed out a month--it would just be the end of her dancing, or a very difficult recovery. So it's not really something we would do at this point unless it was a really serious transgression.

And finally, I think the structure of dance is itself more productive. It's physically exhausting and keeps her out of more trouble. I've seen some horror stories of kids who were cut from high school sports and then just fell apart, so again--it wouldn't accomplish anything good and would hurt more.

It seems to work better to just go in and take her computer keyboard, or her i-pod. (She's lost her cell phone!  Probably somewhere in her room.) The keyboard is much more her "recreational" time since she loves doing graphics. Especially when we say, "We'll just let your teachers know that they need to give you an alternate assignment since you are grounded from the computer."

I'm actually horrified your mother threatened to take away your music if you didn't lose weight. I certainly am not up for parent of the year (if you had seen us throwing a fit in the Ikea parking lot when the older one acted up with the younger one's i-pod you would have certainly called Dr. Phil for an intervention) but I can't believe your mother would take away something you loved and were good at, to "encourage" you in something like losing weight!

I have come to realize that my daughters both have an "identity" in being dancers. It's important to them, they are good at it, and overall, they make good grades. ( The assistant principal said when we getting into Flaky Teacher, "Oh, Balletkid? I know her. She's a good kid.") So while we might have once said "The dance goes at the drop of a hat!" we are much more careful now, because there's a whole lot of bad stuff waiting out there to suck in a kiddo without an identity.

Well, Balletmom......she had a good reason, I was really obese (236 pounds at my highest weight, and I'm 5'10), and it was affecting my health, and my perception of myself, and nothing else really got through to me.  Also, all performance-based fields rely really heavily on appearance, especially for females......even music.  But, I lost most of the weight, became stronger and more physically fit, started wearing nicer clothes and make-up, got my ears pierced, and I have more stamina for playing now, at least I did until I got tendonitis in my right wrist......but now I just put on my tensor bandage and keep playing anyway, and I use a neck strap all the time.  Performing is more fun too, because I'm not constantly worrying about whether or not I look fat on stage, I can just focus on the music.  But anyway, I guess what I'm saying is, I understand how your daughters feel, music is a part of me too, and I knew that if I let my mom take it away from me, I'd be losing a piece of myself, and I didn't want to let that happen.  So, now I still have my music, and I think I'm a *better* self than I used to be, so it all worked out in the end.

[MerryRaven]

freaky and Balletmom;

I think music and dance are like church and charity.

These are positive things that you have to make a commitment to and other people are affected if you do not show up to a performance or practice.  I don't believe in 'grounding' from positive activities.

I did tell my kids that they were only allowed certain activities and if it affected their grades or behavior at the first natural break, I would tell the instructor why I was considering pulling them.  The instructors sometimes agreed with me or would come up with alternate suggestions. 

Grounding for me meant; no friends over, no phone calls, no computer, no tv, and do chores.  Directly home from school.  Church, charity and rehearsals and performances for dance, music, choir etc were allowable activities, but I or DH drove them to and from.  My youngest got this treatment for 6 weeks once when she was just 15 for lying.  Big lying. 

[Balletmom]

I'm glad you agree, MerryRaven. I used to think I'd put the child in virtual solitary, but now I think saving something for the really negative acts is better. There are times when I just remind Mr. Balletmom that our daughter is not pregnant, failing school altogether, on drugs, etc, etc. We have to save something for the really serious transgressions.

Freaky, I guess moms do know best...your mom obviously loved you and it worked out well for you.  I would just be terrified that my child would eat more out of unhappiness, and it would backfire on me--my sister has weight issues and so does her child, and it is one of those "elephant in the room" things for us. They have different eating habits in their family, and my daughters have been much more active in dance.
That is so great you got it all together--you are so right about all the arts being tough on how you look.

It is just so important for kids to have a positive identity.

Although...if either of my daughters ever talks to me the way the Dance Diva does to her mother...she might have to find another way home from ballet class. Allowing your child to treat you so rudely is such a disservice to the child, it's almost cruel.

[MerryRaven]

Rude was not allowed in my house.  Of course I always tried to treat them with respect also.  You never know what will work as each child is different at different ages too.

I didn't really ground my older daughter as she would isolate herself too much as a teen anyway so I made her participate in church and family activities.

Grounding my oldest would have made her defiant.  You pushed her, she would push back.  However if I stepped back and appealed to her intellect and basic good sense, she would be reasonable.

My youngest told me later that the six week grounding saved her from some bad stuff.  Her circle of 'friends' thought she was a wuss for not sneaking out and defying our rules and she realized that they were not a good influence.  Of course I only heard about what a good thing I had done about 5 years later.

I mostly got the sulks at the time.

I sound like a perfect parent in retrospect.  At the time I remember I was fumbling around hoping I was doing the right thing all the time.  And whether I did well or not at least by 18 they both graduated and didn't get pregnant, arrested, or get involved in drugs or alchohol. 

That is success by what ever road you get there.

[blue2000]

My mother wasn't consistent, which I hated, but I took advantage of it whenever I could (what can I say, I was a smart kid ). For instance, getting extra treats when she was in a good mood, because next time she might not let us have anything.

My dad, on the other hand, was VERY strict. You always knew what the rules were, no matter what.
I missed out on some good things, because he didn't like them (dance, for instance), but I also didn't get into some bad things, because I knew what would happen when he found out . Even when I chose to misbehave, I did so knowing, and accepting, the consequences.

If I ever have kids, I would lean much more towards Dad's way of doing things. Missing out on a birthday party as a consequence is much easier to deal with than having the kid think the rules change with the circumstances. I've met way too many adults who think like that.

[HushHush]

I think discipline is about finding each child's 'currency'.  For example, my pre-schooler can sit pretty quietly for the hour and a half church service with one or two books and a pen.  This is because when he was 18 months old and started to fuss, I'd take him into an empty classroom and hold him.  He couldn't run around the foyer or the halls and I'd quietly repeat thatif he wanted to make noise, he had to sit on my lap without toys or treats or Grandma and Grandpa.  But, if he was ready to be quiet, we could have snacks and his grandparents, etc.  It took about three Sundays before he decided that Grandpa was way more fun then an empty classroom on mom's lap.  We've gradually phased the treats and toys out too.

His currency is his desire to spend time with grandpa.  A time-out will do way more for his behavior than a spanking because he HATES to be left out of anything.

And, as much as I would be disappointed that two kids had to cancel at the last minute for my son's party, if it were the other way around, other people's children are not my responsiblity.  Raising my son is my job and teaching him how to be a productive member of society and what behavior is tolerated.

In fact, for Christmas, he brought me a present from under the tree and said I could open it and I explained that it wasn't Christmas morning yet and if he opened any presents under the tree before Christmas, it would be given to charity.  Now he knows the punishment before he has even committed the crime so he's aware of the consequences.  And he didn't even get near the presents until Christmas morning.

Charlotte

[Sharnita]

I am absolutely OK with what Mary did. I think it underscores the message that "If you can't behave around us, we aren't going to risk bad behavior around others".

I would still send the gfit and if it was an event that had cost money to "reserve" a spot for my child, I would pay that if at all possible.

[JudiAU]

I think it is a fitting punishment and not unfair to any parties. As a parent, I might relent if it was a once-in-a-lifetime experience (as others have mentioned).

[dietcokeofevil]

To me there's a secondary punishment for not attending a party that is just as effective...the peer response.  Having to listen to all your friends talk about what a great time they had and the embarrassment of having all of your friends know that you misbehaved would certainly have kept me from doing that a second time.

Haven't encountered this with my daughter yet, but one of my friend's daughters was hosting a slumber party.  When she misbehaved, the party was cancelled and as part of her punishment she had to call all of the invitees and tell them exactly why the party was cancelled.  That was the worst part for her, and it definitely stopped her from repeating that bad behavior.

[MineralDiva]

Good for Mary for sticking to her guns.  Do I think the birthday boy was also "punished" by not having his friends come to the party?  Not really.  And even if so for a moment, I'm sure he'll get over it.  The main thing was the lesson it taught Mary's own children about misbehaving and having to suffer the consequences of their actions.

They may have even counted on Mary not wanting to look "bad" to Birthday Boy or his mom.  Guess again, children!  "You behaved inappropriately, so now "you" don't get to do the fun thing that had been planned...and if there are any questions, "you" can explain the reason why!

If anything, it was a good lesson to the birthday boy too, that there are consequences to one's behavior. "Birthday Boy, Tommy and Sally couldn't come to the party because they did something naughty and Mom had to take away something fun.  They wanted to be here, but because they didn't behave, they had to miss out.  Maybe next time, they'll make better choices."

[sammycat]

If anything, it was a good lesson to the birthday boy too, that there are consequences to one's behavior. "Birthday Boy, Tommy and Sally couldn't come to the party because they did something naughty and Mom had to take away something fun.  They wanted to be here, but because they didn't behave, they had to miss out.  Maybe next time, they'll make better choices."

If only birthday boy's mum would say that to him once in a while she wouldn't be losing friends over her child's behaviour, and he wouldn't be so disliked.  Sigh.  Maybe one day.

[MineralDiva]

Well, they can only teach by example with their own children.  If Birthday Boy's mother doesn't heed the lessons, then she shouldn't be terribly surprised that nobody wants to be or have she or her son around.