Author Topic: Alton Brown's manifesto to fans  (Read 18111 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

KimberlyRose

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1949
Re: Alton Brown's manifesto to fans
« Reply #120 on: September 28, 2011, 11:25:16 PM »
I think there is a reason AB decided to make this policy. The reason could be as simple as him wanting to be considerate. Or perhaps he's had unpleasant experiences in the past which lead to this solution. All we can do is speculate. And opine. I think saying "If you don't like it, you don't have to go" is counterproductive to the discussion. It's a very dismissive statement.

I can see being turned off by the phrasing, but I think it's valid to say that if you don't agree, then don't attend *and contact Alton Brown/his reps/whoever to let them know why you aren't attending.*

Aeris

  • Super Hero!
  • ****
  • Posts: 9638
Re: Alton Brown's manifesto to fans
« Reply #121 on: September 29, 2011, 12:05:12 AM »
I think there is a reason AB decided to make this policy. The reason could be as simple as him wanting to be considerate. Or perhaps he's had unpleasant experiences in the past which lead to this solution. All we can do is speculate. And opine. I think saying "If you don't like it, you don't have to go" is counterproductive to the discussion. It's a very dismissive statement.

But I suppose I don't really get the point of speculating and opining as to what his rationale is for the policy. It could be a couple different things, each pretty equally likely, and we have no way of knowing (whether he's just being considerate to parents, or whether it's based entirely on poor planning and misbehaving).

It does no one any good for us to speculate on his secret motives. It doesn't change whether he's being rude, it doesn't change what a polite response to the policy is, should you disagree with it.

It seems about as useful as speculating on whether he wears boxers or briefs - there's no added value in it.

Master_Edward

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4077
  • Lord what fools these mortals be!
Re: Alton Brown's manifesto to fans
« Reply #122 on: September 29, 2011, 12:19:48 AM »
That's a very good point Aeris.

Ed.

sisbam

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3205
Re: Alton Brown's manifesto to fans
« Reply #123 on: September 29, 2011, 09:47:27 AM »
But what's the point of starting a thread discussing the merits of his manifesto? If everyone said, "I like it 100%. It's all polite and justified and thoughtful," then there's no need for discussion.

As it stands, we're discussing the part about families with small children going first. Many think it's considerate. Some think it's unfair to those who waited in line for the same time, if not longer. Okay, why do you think it's unfair? That's where we are now.

I guess there's nothing left to discuss. Discussing the family side of the equation gets ugly and apparently discussing reasons which would make this policy seem fair to those who don't like it is pointless.

aventurine

  • Super Hero!
  • ****
  • Posts: 6391
  • Mean, but agreeable
Re: Alton Brown's manifesto to fans
« Reply #124 on: September 29, 2011, 01:33:50 PM »
But what's the point of starting a thread discussing the merits of his manifesto? If everyone said, "I like it 100%. It's all polite and justified and thoughtful," then there's no need for discussion.

As it stands, we're discussing the part about families with small children going first. Many think it's considerate. Some think it's unfair to those who waited in line for the same time, if not longer. Okay, why do you think it's unfair? That's where we are now.

I guess there's nothing left to discuss. Discussing the family side of the equation gets ugly and apparently discussing reasons which would make this policy seem fair to those who don't like it is pointless.

ITA.  I started not to wade into the "fair/unfair" question because it seemed like a derailment, but when I thought about it, I realized it's just natural thread drift. 

It does seem to be going in circles at this point, though.




"A child of five could understand this.  Send someone to fetch a child of five." - Groucho Marx

Aeris

  • Super Hero!
  • ****
  • Posts: 9638
Re: Alton Brown's manifesto to fans
« Reply #125 on: September 29, 2011, 01:34:08 PM »
But what's the point of starting a thread discussing the merits of his manifesto? If everyone said, "I like it 100%. It's all polite and justified and thoughtful," then there's no need for discussion.

As it stands, we're discussing the part about families with small children going first. Many think it's considerate. Some think it's unfair to those who waited in line for the same time, if not longer. Okay, why do you think it's unfair? That's where we are now.

I guess there's nothing left to discuss. Discussing the family side of the equation gets ugly and apparently discussing reasons which would make this policy seem fair to those who don't like it is pointless.

I never said there was nothing to discuss. And I didn't actually say his manifesto was 100% polite - I haven't weighed in on that.  I just don't think his private, unexpressed, unevidenced *reasons* for having that policy are helpful or germane to any of those discussions since we have no way of knowing what they are.

Assuming that he must only be doing that because of rude, entitled parents who plan poorly with badly behaved kids is not helpful, we have no evidence it's true, and it causes bad feelings in an otherwise productive thread.

immadz

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4783
Re: Alton Brown's manifesto to fans
« Reply #126 on: September 29, 2011, 01:46:36 PM »
But what's the point of starting a thread discussing the merits of his manifesto? If everyone said, "I like it 100%. It's all polite and justified and thoughtful," then there's no need for discussion.

As it stands, we're discussing the part about families with small children going first. Many think it's considerate. Some think it's unfair to those who waited in line for the same time, if not longer. Okay, why do you think it's unfair? That's where we are now.

I guess there's nothing left to discuss. Discussing the family side of the equation gets ugly and apparently discussing reasons which would make this policy seem fair to those who don't like it is pointless.

I never said there was nothing to discuss. And I didn't actually say his manifesto was 100% polite - I haven't weighed in on that.  I just don't think his private, unexpressed, unevidenced *reasons* for having that policy are helpful or germane to any of those discussions since we have no way of knowing what they are.

Assuming that he must only be doing that because of rude, entitled parents who plan poorly with badly behaved kids is not helpful, we have no evidence it's true, and it causes bad feelings in an otherwise productive thread.

Actually Alton Brown says in his manifesto that it is so that the kids can get out and to bed at a decent hour. Some of us believe it is sad that celebrities have to show this consideration for the children's sleep schedule when the parents are not.

It could be that the childrens' bed time is not very early at all and Alton Brown is making an interesting assumption that kids all go or should go to bed at a certain hour. In this case, I would say he is making a less than charitable assumption that parents with young children who are at the back of the line. Assuming that they will not appropriately prioritize their children's needs and the need to be polite to those waiting in line.

When the unfairness of the line thing was mentioned, some posters brought up that AB was being polite and considerate of those waiting in line by getting kids who were prone to melt downs out first. This is what led to the suggestion that in this case, it was the parents of the kids who were subjecting those in line to a melt down who were rude and the policy perhaps should not cater to these parents.


567Kate

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 954
  • Nothing could possibly go wrong with this idea.
Re: Alton Brown's manifesto to fans
« Reply #127 on: September 29, 2011, 01:55:38 PM »
I think he should have perhaps made it a more general statement.  Something like this:

"We may take groups with special needs earlier to make the event run as smoothly as possible, and I ask for your patience in this, even when it means you have to wait a little longer. In return, I promise to stay long enough to meet with every single fan."

Sabbyfrog2

  • Super Hero!
  • ****
  • Posts: 6754
  • I'm a Super Hero! Now where's my cape?
Re: Alton Brown's manifesto to fans
« Reply #128 on: September 29, 2011, 02:09:38 PM »
I think he should have perhaps made it a more general statement.  Something like this:

"We may take groups with special needs earlier to make the event run as smoothly as possible, and I ask for your patience in this, even when it means you have to wait a little longer. In return, I promise to stay long enough to meet with every single fan."

But "special needs" can be determined so many ways. It's pretty vague. So, in a way, I disagree. I think him being specific and to the point like he was is better only because you know exactly what your in for and aren't left wondering "well, does MY family qualify as "special needs" or not?"

Rohanna

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2321
Re: Alton Brown's manifesto to fans
« Reply #129 on: September 29, 2011, 02:35:10 PM »
Again with the negative assumptions? Why assume that the parents are being unfair to the kids by keeping them out too late when it could , as I said before, be that they leave the event if the line is too long- and he'd rather they didn't have to. Maybe they dont normally even bring kids to events, but hes letting parenta know hes sensitive to childcare
Issues... We dont know.

If constantly negative Stereotypes were being thrown around about any other group like they are for parents, wonder what people would say?
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world. ~ Jack Layton.

immadz

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4783
Re: Alton Brown's manifesto to fans
« Reply #130 on: September 29, 2011, 02:55:10 PM »
I think he should have perhaps made it a more general statement.  Something like this:

"We may take groups with special needs earlier to make the event run as smoothly as possible, and I ask for your patience in this, even when it means you have to wait a little longer. In return, I promise to stay long enough to meet with every single fan."

But "special needs" can be determined so many ways. It's pretty vague. So, in a way, I disagree. I think him being specific and to the point like he was is better only because you know exactly what your in for and aren't left wondering "well, does MY family qualify as "special needs" or not?"

He doesn't actually say that this is policy though. His manifesto says that he will *sometimes* ask families with young children forward so that they can get out and get to bed at a decent hour. So this is likely only at play at events which run later into the night where young kids are in line.


sisbam

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3205
Re: Alton Brown's manifesto to fans
« Reply #131 on: September 29, 2011, 04:06:20 PM »
But what's the point of starting a thread discussing the merits of his manifesto? If everyone said, "I like it 100%. It's all polite and justified and thoughtful," then there's no need for discussion.

As it stands, we're discussing the part about families with small children going first. Many think it's considerate. Some think it's unfair to those who waited in line for the same time, if not longer. Okay, why do you think it's unfair? That's where we are now.

I guess there's nothing left to discuss. Discussing the family side of the equation gets ugly and apparently discussing reasons which would make this policy seem fair to those who don't like it is pointless.

I never said there was nothing to discuss. And I didn't actually say his manifesto was 100% polite - I haven't weighed in on that.  I just don't think his private, unexpressed, unevidenced *reasons* for having that policy are helpful or germane to any of those discussions since we have no way of knowing what they are.

Assuming that he must only be doing that because of rude, entitled parents who plan poorly with badly behaved kids is not helpful, we have no evidence it's true, and it causes bad feelings in an otherwise productive thread.

Sure, okay. I probably worded what I was thinking wrong.

My point is that if I disagreed with a given rule, I might feel differently about it if I knew how it came to be, especially if it were the result a particularly bad experience or incident.

Would those who dislike the rule feel better if this were the case?

aventurine

  • Super Hero!
  • ****
  • Posts: 6391
  • Mean, but agreeable
Re: Alton Brown's manifesto to fans
« Reply #132 on: September 29, 2011, 04:12:10 PM »
My point is that if I disagreed with a given rule, I might feel differently about it if I knew how it came to be, especially if it were the result a particularly bad experience or incident.

Would those who dislike the rule feel better if this were the case?

Good question.  IMO, it would help me understand it but probably not feel better about it, because I could feel as though I were being "punished," for lack of a better word, for something I didn't do and had no control over.

eta:  I wouldn't be mad at Alton, but rather at the one(s) who caused the original incident, in the vein of "this is why we can't have nice things."

The what-ifs can go on and on, can't they?   ;D




"A child of five could understand this.  Send someone to fetch a child of five." - Groucho Marx

sisbam

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3205
Re: Alton Brown's manifesto to fans
« Reply #133 on: September 29, 2011, 04:14:43 PM »
I think he should have perhaps made it a more general statement.  Something like this:

"We may take groups with special needs earlier to make the event run as smoothly as possible, and I ask for your patience in this, even when it means you have to wait a little longer. In return, I promise to stay long enough to meet with every single fan."

But "special needs" can be determined so many ways. It's pretty vague. So, in a way, I disagree. I think him being specific and to the point like he was is better only because you know exactly what your in for and aren't left wondering "well, does MY family qualify as "special needs" or not?"

Yeah, I would be pretty pissed to read that only to find that "special needs" means family with small kids.

For the record, I'm okay with all of the manifesto, and I would happily attend a signing (I would do that regardless). I'm especially okay with attending one because I know what I'm getting into ahead of time. The families thing would annoy me if I walked into it blind.

buvezdevin

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1467
Re: Alton Brown's manifesto to fans
« Reply #134 on: September 29, 2011, 05:20:15 PM »
I said upthread I think AB's "fanifesto" is generous; I still do, but some subsequent views have me wondering if making the point about "sometimes" asking those with kids to go first in line may not unintentionally increase the odds for always having some folks unhappy (however minorly or briefly) as a "no kids present" attendee may, if not aware of the fact before, question that "kids present" attendees are given priority, but a "kids present" attendee who knew AB's statements on the point could be unhappy that the event they may attend is not one of the times they could go first.
Never refuse to do a kindness unless the act would work great injury to yourself, and never refuse to take a drink -- under any circumstances.
Mark Twain