Author Topic: Molly Quinn (from Castle) Makes me smile....  (Read 5373 times)

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immadz

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Re: Molly Quinn (from Castle) Makes me smile....
« Reply #30 on: October 07, 2011, 04:31:43 PM »
If an accountant says, "I know I tend to be anal about things, but I'm an accountant, I'm very detail-oriented." Is he saying only accountants are detail-oriented?

However, accountants need to be detail oriented for their jobs while some other professions don't need to be it and in fact being too detail oriented could be a detriment to them. Southerners don't need to be polite, any more than any other region.

If I said " I am white, therefore I am polite/correct/smart" would it be racist. I think it would. Similarly so with the Southern and polite thing.


wheeitsme

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Re: Molly Quinn (from Castle) Makes me smile....
« Reply #31 on: October 07, 2011, 07:26:50 PM »

If I said " I am white, therefore I am polite/correct/smart" would it be racist. I think it would. Similarly so with the Southern and polite thing.


So if I have pride in where I learned my good manners, then, to you, that means that  you think that I think that you don't have good manners?  And if my pride is regional, it's  racist? Also, if anyone were to say "Of course I have good manners - I belong to Etiquette Hell forum" than that means I think if you don't belong to the forum then you have bad manners?

I believe the one displaying poor manners is  the one who automatically assumes a statement of pride implies a deficiency in other people. 

immadz

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Re: Molly Quinn (from Castle) Makes me smile....
« Reply #32 on: October 07, 2011, 08:28:05 PM »

If I said " I am white, therefore I am polite/correct/smart" would it be racist. I think it would. Similarly so with the Southern and polite thing.


So if I have pride in where I learned my good manners, then, to you, that means that  you think that I think that you don't have good manners?  And if my pride is regional, it's  racist? Also, if anyone were to say "Of course I have good manners - I belong to Etiquette Hell forum" than that means I think if you don't belong to the forum then you have bad manners?

I believe the one displaying poor manners is  the one who automatically assumes a statement of pride implies a deficiency in other people.

Nice way to call me ill mannered.

Belonging to an etiquette forum, means you are concerned about etiquette issues more than the average person. Same as "Of course he is smart, he has a PhD." One would expect a person who has earned a PhD to be at least slightly smart. Being from a particular region does not confer any other attributes as far as I know. So yes, it would be rude to say " Of course he is intelligent, he is not from the New York. Because this would mean that all New Yorkers are intrinsically intelligent and the rest of us have to work harder at it or come from places where people are not intrinsically intelligent.

ETA: "I am white, of course I am smart" is to me a super offensive statement but I guess it could be that the people saying aren't really racist but just proud of their race.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2011, 08:32:57 PM by immadz »


wheeitsme

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Re: Molly Quinn (from Castle) Makes me smile....
« Reply #33 on: October 07, 2011, 08:36:10 PM »

If I said " I am white, therefore I am polite/correct/smart" would it be racist. I think it would. Similarly so with the Southern and polite thing.


So if I have pride in where I learned my good manners, then, to you, that means that  you think that I think that you don't have good manners?  And if my pride is regional, it's  racist? Also, if anyone were to say "Of course I have good manners - I belong to Etiquette Hell forum" than that means I think if you don't belong to the forum then you have bad manners?

I believe the one displaying poor manners is  the one who automatically assumes a statement of pride implies a deficiency in other people.

Nice way to call me ill mannered.

Belonging to an etiquette forum, means you are concerned about etiquette issues more than the average person. Same as "Of course he is smart, he has a PhD." One would expect a person who has earned a PhD to be at least slightly smart. Being from a particular region does not confer any other attributes as far as I know. So yes, it would be rude to say " Of course he is intelligent, he is not from the New York. Because this would mean that all New Yorkers are intrinsically intelligent and the rest of us have to work harder at it or come from places where people are not intrinsically intelligent.

ETA: "I am white, of course I am smart" is to me a super offensive statement but I guess it could be that the people saying aren't really racist but just proud of their race.

If you are automatically assuming that someone making a statement of pride is implying a deficiency in other people and you are judging them for that, then yes, I do believe you are displaying poor manners.

I find that attitude as offensive as you found Molly Quinn's. 

And if you feel that you have a right to be upset about that, then that makes us even.


My 2cents.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2011, 09:39:22 PM by wheeitsme »

WillyNilly

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Re: Molly Quinn (from Castle) Makes me smile....
« Reply #34 on: October 07, 2011, 10:39:18 PM »
Its not the statement of pride, its the qualification. Be proud your southern. That's cool. Be proud you are polite. But to qualify you are polite as a direct result of - and the sole reason being cited - as being something unobtainable to several people in your audience, is what's polarizing. If you qualify with "I had wonderful influences in my life" well that's something anyone could have had, or "I took the time to study", those are open statements. But to say you are Southern (or white, or grew up rich, or had access to special resources, etc) is to lord your experience over others as a qualification of why you are better then average.

And I'll go ahead and say it: while I have certainly met polite, thoughtful, well mannered Southerners, I dislike the generalization for another reason. Plenty of southerners are awful, terrible, rude, crude, ignorant people. So to hear "southern upbringing = well mannered" just makes all that past rudeness bite a tad bit more. I have been across the country, and as a generalization I wouldn't put the South in even the top 3 most polite, welcoming regions.

PeterM

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Re: Molly Quinn (from Castle) Makes me smile....
« Reply #35 on: October 08, 2011, 01:56:37 AM »
I believe the one displaying poor manners is  the one who automatically assumes a statement of pride implies a deficiency in other people.

Nice way to call me ill mannered.

I myself am happy to come out and say it, if you like. I think your assumptions are rude.

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Belonging to an etiquette forum, means you are concerned about etiquette issues more than the average person.

You're moving the goal posts. The comparison was to "someone who doesn't belong to an etiquette forum," not to a mythical "average person." If all you know about person A and person B is that A belongs to an etiquette forum and B does not, would you assume A is more concerned about etiquette than B? If so, how is that not a rude assumption, given that you have very little to base it on?

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Same as "Of course he is smart, he has a PhD."

By your logic, this means no one without a PHD is smart. I realize you think it's different, but I don't see it.

Also, I've known enough PHDs to say that the only thing having a PHD guarantees is that the person has a PHD. You don't necessarily have to be especially intelligent to complete any level of education, though of course it helps. Possibly not as much as ambition and determination, though, as well as any number of other qualities with no real correlation to intelligence. It's like the old joke, what do they call the guy who graduated dead last in his class from medical school? Doctor.

Sweeping generalizations such as "Southerners are polite" or "PHDs are smart" are very rarely completely accurate, and sometimes are intentionally meant to be offensive. I don't think that's the way to bet, though, if there are no other indications that they're meant to insult others.





immadz

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Re: Molly Quinn (from Castle) Makes me smile....
« Reply #36 on: October 08, 2011, 02:23:35 AM »
then we are even because I feel statements like this imply regional superiority and are masked as being proud of their region. I find that offensive. To me it is not polite to be proud/feel superior about something that isn't an accomplishment. How is being proud of being Southern different from being proud of your race or your gender or some other thing which is not an accomplishment? I am white hence I am correct. Rude, not rude? I am a man hence I am smart. Rude or not? 


PeterM

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Re: Molly Quinn (from Castle) Makes me smile....
« Reply #37 on: October 08, 2011, 04:07:39 AM »
then we are even because I feel statements like this imply regional superiority and are masked as being proud of their region. I find that offensive.

I think that sort of sentiment certainly can come from a feeling of superiority, but not always. Unless, for example, you think every native-born US citizen who states they are proud to be an American is deliberately insulting every other country in the world. I myself do not believe that, but I do acknowledge that far too many people who proclaim themselves to be patriots of any country do believe other countries are inferior. I just don't think all of them feel that way, and I don't judge every statement of that sort to be rude unless I have other evidence of a superior/rude attitude.

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To me it is not polite to be proud/feel superior about something that isn't an accomplishment.

I don't think it's especially intelligent or useful to be proud of something that you have no control over, but I don't think it's inherently rude. It might be, depending on how you profess or display your pride, but not always. I also don't think that "proud" and "feeling superior" are the same thing. Do you really think anyone who feels proud is being rude?

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How is being proud of being Southern different from being proud of your race or your gender or some other thing which is not an accomplishment? I am white hence I am correct. Rude, not rude? I am a man hence I am smart. Rude or not?

I don't see those as equivalent to what's being discussed. Southerners have a reputation/stereotype for being especially polite, right or wrong. Ms. Quinn was making a humorous comment playing off of that generally harmless reputation, the same way a blonde person might say that they're more fun, or a redhead might joke about their fiery temper. None of those stereotypes are universally true, and I don't know anyone who believes they are. But most people are aware of them (in the US, at least) and so their existence can form the basis of jokes or anecdotes.

There is no generally known reputation or stereotype that white people are correct or men are smart, so no one professing those views would be making use of the cultural shorthand that the Southerner/blonde/redhead comments rely on. Even so, I'm not sure I'd call people who say your examples rude. I'd definitely think they were stupid, but whether they were rude would depend on exactly how they phrased it and in what circumstances.

There are, of course, common American reputations/stereotypes that are generally rude. Not all black people are good at basketball, and not all Asians are good at math, for example. Anyone stating that they were in a serious manner would quite possibly be rude, but might also simply be incredibly ignorant. I don't think ignorance is inherently rude, but it often accompanies and spurs rude behavior or attitudes such as racism so it can be hard to tell the difference.  But even if someone states one of those untrue stereotypes - whether it's an ignorant/racist person who isn't black or Asian, or a black or Asian person saying it as a joke about themselves - they're not necessarily saying that ONLY black people are good at basketball, or ONLY Asians are good at math.