Chinese restaurant etiquette

[freakyfemme]

Hey all,

The other night, we (my family and I) visited my uncle, his boyfriend, and his mother, at a Chinese restaurant in Toronto.  Now, bear in mind, my uncle's boyfriend is Chinese, and although he's been living in Canada for longer than I have (I was born here, but I'm only 22), he will ONLY eat authentic Chinese cuisine....which provokes my family to make countless "chink" jokes in his absence, but that's another story.  Anyway, I admit I kind of screwed up and embarrassed people, because I'm a vegetarian, and the food was served family-style.  At first we were served three meat dishes, and only one veggie one (marinated snow peas and mushrooms), and then the rice came a little while later.  I took a more than "my" share of snow peas, but I figured that that was okay, because I couldn't really eat anything else, and I made sure to pass the snow peas around the table again before taking any more.....I was really hungry, and if I'd shared equally, I'd have had to make a meal out of about five snow peas and 2/3 of a small bowl of rice.  Anyway, after that, my uncle's boyfriend ordered a tofu dish (ostensibly for everyone), so I'd have some protein, and I ate a piece of the tofu, but I didn't take any more after that, because it tasted as if it had been fried in chicken fat, and when people offered me more, I said "No thanks, I had some already."  Oh, and "dessert" was red bean soup and weird little cake things, and I took a bite of the soup, but didn't finish it, and offered it to my mom instead, because she liked hers.  Later on, my mom said I was rude for taking too many snow peas, and also, for not eating more tofu or finishing my soup, because apparently, in China, it's considered a sin to waste food......but she always raised me with the idea that "it's better something goes to waste than to YOUR waist," and that it was okay not to finish something if I tried it first and then decided I didn't like it.  But anyway, after this whole scenario, I was just wondering a few things:

1.  For fellow vegetarians (or those with other dietary restrictions), how do you deal with it when you're having a "family style" meal where you can't eat the majority of the food?

2.  When do one's hunger/nutritional needs take a back seat to etiquette?  The menu was mostly in Chinese (and my uncle's boyfriend had sort of taken over the ordering anyway), so I didn't know the tofu would be fried (I don't eat fried food), and either way, I certainly didn't want to eat something that tasted like chicken fat.

3.  I know I was rude to take too many snow peas (although I made sure everyone else had gotten some too, and like I said, I couldn't eat most of the other food), but is it also rude to take significantly LESS than one's share of a communal dish?     

[guihong]

1. If I'm a guest (and it sounds as if you were a guest of sorts of uncle's BF), then I eat what I can and suck it up.

2. Again, if I'm a guest,  I usually just grin and bear it.  I don't eat anything that I can't (for religious or health reasons), but neither do I kick up and make the host order something for me.

3. Maybe I've been rude all these years, but I usually start by taking much less than I think I want of something.  Then I let things play out, to determine if I get seconds.

In short, know that even if it's a bad meal, you can get a snack later.  And know that there's no pleasing your mom, so don't even try. 

gui

[Ulla dances in a silly way]

I would almost say it was more rude for your family to ignore your food choices and needs. You said your uncle's boyfriend had ordered everything, it would have been better to have ordered more you could eat rather than expect you to live off of your portion of what amounted to a side dish. It was kind of him to order tofu for you but he really should have considered if it was vegetarian tofu or not. I do not think it is rude not to eat something that goes against you dietary needs/choices/et all.

But, as I do not know anything about Chinese etiquette, I'm not sure how offended a person who had lived in a Western culture for more than 22 years would be by you accidentally breaking the rules of a foreign etiquette. Maybe you could contact your uncle and see if his boyfriend was offended if it is bothering you. Then you would know if you should alter your behavior/apologize/ or whatever for next time.

-Ulla

[blarg314]

Having experienced family style Chinese Dinners in a Chinese country with vegetarians present, I would describe the protocol as follows:

Host looks at the menu in preparation for ordering.  Several people (generally not the vegetarians) remind them that we have vegetarians, and we need to make sure that they have enough to eat.  There's a brief discussion clarifying type of vegetarianism (the veggie will speak up to say "oh, I'll eat fish", or "don't go to any extra effort").  The host discusses with the server, usually adding a couple of vegetarian dishes to the set meal, including something hearty like a noodle dish, or modifying an almost vegetarian dish to remove meat bits.

The meal comes and the dishes are passed around, with extra effort to make sure that the veggie dishes go by the vegetarians more than once.  They are warned by the Chinese speakers if a dish is not obviously meat (or a non Chinese speaker will taste it and go "yep, I think that's pork").  There will be at least three queries during the meal and one at the end to make sure that the vegetarians have had enough to eat, at which point they protest that they have plenty, thank you.  By this point, they're usually so stuffed that they can't physically eat anything more, as is everyone else at the table.

Going hungry is rarely a problem at these events. I've had people anxiously check to make sure that the food ordered is something that I will eat, and I'll happily try almost anything that doesn't actually attempt to crawl off the place (I do draw the line at endangered species, though).

[Slartibartfast]

I'm not a vegetarian by a long shot, but I can be picky about what I eat for a number of reasons.  In my experience, the best thing you can do is be prepared.  Coping is an extremely distant second place.

To be prepared:

1)  Find out what the meal is going to be, and the circumstances surrounding it.  (Can you order a vegetarian dish?  Do you need to call the restaurant ahead of time and ask what dishes have peanuts in them, so you're not at the mercy of the server's poor memory?  Does Aunt Sally need to be reminded you are a vegetarian so she doesn't serve all meat dishes for Thanksgiving?)

2)  If you can, make sure someone who is a "host" of some sort knows what your dietary restrictions are.  This could be the person whose house you're eating at, or the person organizing an outing to a restaurant, or the restaurant itself if it's a business meal.

3)  If you can't be sure there will be an adequate meal available for you, pack something.  Stick a package of crackers in your purse, leave an apple in the car, and stick a piece of candy in your pocket in case you find yourself without enough calories to stay awake through the long business meeting afterward.

4)  If you know for sure you won't be accomodated, either make alternate arrangements (i.e. eat somewhere else) or eat ahead of time.  I'm a big fan of SlimFast shakes - I keep some around in my work fridge because they're designed to give me calories, vitamins, and make me not hungry for a few hours (when I can go home and eat whatever I darn well want to.)

To cope:

1)  Make a meal out of what's available, within reason.  If the only thing you can eat is the carrot sticks, eat as many as you can without it being really obvious you're not touching the rest of the food.  If this means taking tiny portions of things you probably won't like and smearing them around your plate a bit to make it look like you ate them, go for it.  (This works best for potlucks that have questionable casseroles.)  Most people will adjust their serving sizes based on how much of a dish is left and how many people have yet to eat, so you can usually take a largish helping of things you like and everyone else will take a proportionally smaller one.  Make sure you leave enough for at least one "normal sized serving" for everyone else, though!

2)  Be ready to explain why you're avoiding the things you don't eat.  (It doesn't have to be the truth - "I'm allergic to shrimp" is a lot easier to say than "I don't trust your food preparation methods for this partially cooked dish," and is a lot more polite than "if I eat shrimp I get violent diharrea and explosive projectile vomiting.")  Hopefully nobody notices, but if someone asks, be prepared to act like you're enjoying yourself just fine, so they don't feel they need to flag down a host and make a scene.

3)  Pull out those crackers in your purse :-)

[Gigi]

This reminds me of the time we attended a beautiful and elegant Chinese wedding and the subsequent banquet in Chinatown.  The meal was about 10 courses.  Unfortunately, I am severely allergic to seafood, and 7 of the 10 courses had shrimp, crab, prawns etc.  Even the rice had shrimp in it.  I was able to eat some chicken and duck, and a bit of vegetables.  Everything was beautifully presented but no bowl had more than 10 small servings for the table.  I was the only one at our table that went home hungry that night. LOL.

[thebadchemist]

I'm not really sure where your mother got the idea that, specifically in China, wasting food is a sin. I mean, sure, it's generally frowned upon to just needlessly waste it, but if you can't eat something, then no one is going to comment on you for it. I always thought that not wasting food is something that isn't necessarily limited to the Chinese culture, but I could be wrong. Don't let her make you feel guilty about it. You weren't comfortable eating it and therefore, you shouldn't have to. Besides, if everyone there knew you are a vegetarian, then they shouldn't mind you taking more than your share of the veggie dish. The fact that your mother tried to interpret Chinese customs to make you feel guilty is a little shocking. Was she trying to blame the culture or something?

I can't help you with the vegetarian at a family style meal part, but I can lend a few FYI's about Chinese food:

1) Vegetarianism is usually somewhat of a rare thing in Chinese culture (I've only known it associated with monks), so most of the old-school, authentic restaurants won't have a lot of dishes that accomodate it.

Corallary to #1: Faux-meat vegetarian dishes are popular in certain parts of China and I know of several places that do soy-based faux-meat and all veggie products. Ask your uncle's boyfriend if he's heard of any.

2) Even if the dish is veggie, there might be animal products, like animal fats or animal-based broths used to cook it. You won't likely get someone to tell you what's in what at a mom-and-pop place. Stick to the most basic stir-frys you can find. Look for things like garlic sauce (usually garlic and a little water with cornstarch as a thickener) and soy sauce. Don't expect them to lay out every single ingredient for you. Trust me, I've seen people attempt it and they only end up really frustrated. The only "Chinese" places you should try that at are the Westernized ones, like Panda Express and P.F. Chang's (do they have either of those in Canada?). If language is an issue and if your uncle's BF speaks Chinese, then have him ask, but don't expect a detailed list, by any means.

3) If all else fails and you're hungry, eat rice. It'll tide you over until you leave and can get something else. Or eat a small meal beforehand.

4) Don't listen to what your mom said. You don't need to put your dietary requirements aside for anyone, but a little more understanding on both sides can help a lot. I would definitely explain what the limitations are very clearly to your uncle, if not his boyfriend, so that they can always make sure that you're accomodated for. My BF isn't Chinese and my parents have been accomodating him at any big super-authentic meal that we have. He's not a vegetarian, but likes the Westernized stuff and is a fairly picky eater.

5) Don't feel bad about the red bean soup. I can't stand the stuff and I grew up with it. Heck, my mom would have made me feel guilty if I DIDN'T give that to her, because she always welcomes a good red bean soup. In the future, if you have a choice for dessert, I highly recommend almond jello. It's fantastic and completely vegetarian-friendly.

6) What blarg314 said is right. Chinese people tend to be solicitious to the point of paranoia when it comes to feeding people. It's tradition to make sure everyone is fed to the point of near-explosion, so making your needs and preferences clear would probably work very well in your favor. At least, at my house, it would.  

This last part is just my opinion, but I'm American-bred and have been in the country for 23 years. I love country music, make one heck of an apple pie, and speak flawless English with a California accent. No matter how American I am, I will never learn to love the Westernized versions of Chinese food. I enjoy eating the authentic stuff and am lucky to live in an area where it's available. I would be incredibly hurt (not to mention offended) if people, especially my BF's family, though of that as "chinky". With all due respect, it is not funny at all.

[Sandi Papaya]

This last part is just my opinion, but I'm American-bred and have been in the country for 23 years. I love country music, make one heck of an apple pie, and speak flawless English with a California accent. No matter how American I am, I will never learn to love the Westernized versions of Chinese food. I enjoy eating the authentic stuff and am lucky to live in an area where it's available. I would be incredibly hurt (not to mention offended) if people, especially my BF's family, though of that as "chinky". With all due respect, it is not funny at all.

I'm with you there - I'm Cuban-American, born and bred in the Bay Area, speak English with a CA accent, speak Spanish with a more-or-less neutral accent because I've been surrounded by Spanish-speakers from all 21 Spanish-speaking nations of the world - and yet, don't drag me into a Cuban restaurant that's not actually owned by Cuban people, because I will go in kicking and screaming all the way. It is REALLY hard to find decently authentic Cuban food in the Bay Area (in a restaurant, anyway - I get the best stuff at home!) - the best places on the West Coast are down in L.A.

And if I had a BF whose family dared to call it "Spic" food, behind my back or in front of me, I'd be highly, highly offended and hurt. That's not funny, or even anything approaching funny. If you don't like my Cuban food, fine. Just politely turn down my invitation next time, but I can't help being who I am, and I don't find it amusing to be called a racist term because of it.

[Bijou]

5) Don't feel bad about the red bean soup. I can't stand the stuff and I grew up with it. Heck, my mom would have made me feel guilty if I DIDN'T give that to her, because she always welcomes a good red bean soup. In the future, if you have a choice for dessert, I highly recommend almond jello. It's fantastic and completely vegetarian-friendly.

Do most recipes for almond jello use agar-agar or one of the vegetarian alternatives to gelatin?  The recipe I saw on line use this gelatin, which is an animal product, so I would want to ask what they use to set the jello. 
I agree.  Almond jello is fantastic!

[dawnfire]

5) Don't feel bad about the red bean soup. I can't stand the stuff and I grew up with it. Heck, my mom would have made me feel guilty if I DIDN'T give that to her, because she always welcomes a good red bean soup. In the future, if you have a choice for dessert, I highly recommend almond jello. It's fantastic and completely vegetarian-friendly.

Do most recipes for almond jello use agar-agar or one of the vegetarian alternatives to gelatin?  The recipe I saw on line use this gelatin, which is an animal product, so I would want to ask what they use to set the jello. 
I agree.  Almond jello is fantastic!

almond jello generally uses agar but some place may use jello due to lack of  availabilty. you can tell if agar is used as it is a fimer than jello

[freakyfemme]

This last part is just my opinion, but I'm American-bred and have been in the country for 23 years. I love country music, make one heck of an apple pie, and speak flawless English with a California accent. No matter how American I am, I will never learn to love the Westernized versions of Chinese food. I enjoy eating the authentic stuff and am lucky to live in an area where it's available. I would be incredibly hurt (not to mention offended) if people, especially my BF's family, though of that as "chinky". With all due respect, it is not funny at all.

I know it's not funny, I've given up on trying to tell them it's racist, because they're "just joking around" and I have "no sense of humour."  Ditto the "poofster" comments, although those have subsided a lot in the past little while.    So, I reluctantly laugh along with them to shut them up, without really saying anything myself......but then, when we're actually WITH my uncle and his boyfriend, they all act like they're super best friends (even though my mom LOVES to talk about how bossy and overbearing and controlling Uncle's BF is, for unilaterally dictating "all Chinese, all the time," and for always coming over to our house with video travelogues of his and my uncle's latest vacation, and making us watch them), and they actually got mad at me for not letting my uncle's boyfriend hug me.  Also, they issued an open invitation to them to come to our house, after my mom had done a whole song-and-dance about how much she hates having Uncle's BF here.  When I asked about it, she said she was "just being polite" and she "had to reciprocate their invitation."  Umm, no, you don't have to reciprocate if you don't accept the first one.   

[VorFemme]

In my opinion, worth the hot air it took me to speak, using racist terms as a "joke" is about as funny as having a REAL anvil fall on your head.  It may be funny when it falls on Wile E. Coyote in the Roadrunner cartoons - but he is just fine in the next cartoon and the roadrunner doesn't have a feather out of place............in real life, injuries to body or psyche aren't as easily brushed off.

Too bad you don't have any Acme anvils or rocket boosters to tie the "joking" family members to before tossing the anvil off a cliff or pointing the rocket booster in the same direction.........although being taken off to jail while protesting "it was funny in the Looney Tunes cartoon" wouldn't cut any ice with the police or the judge at your arraignment.  And the news media would have a field day, I'm sure.

Perhaps a nice inflateable anvil??

[Lisbeth]

I have a request:

As offensive (and yes, rude) as terms like the ones that have been mentioned in this thread are, let's not get sidetracked into discussions of those terms and attitudes.  In the past, it's led to some really nasty consequences that this forum is still recovering from.  Speaking for myself, I would hate to see that happen again to this forum.

[Gileswench]

To get back on topic (all the while agreeing that racist terms are in no way funny), It seems to me the real etiquette violation was made by the uncle's BF in not making adequate effort to make sure there was something freakyfemme could eat. She made no comments about the lack of food for her, made an effort to make sure everyone else got some of the snow peas - which were virtually the only thing on the table she could eat! - and made the most of what she could have. Since the BF was the one doing all the ordering, it was up to him to make sure there was enough food she could eat to have an adequate meal.

As has been suggested earlier, a talk with the uncle and/or his BF about the limits of freakyfemme's dietary restrictions might be the best course to avoid another situation like this.

[Suze]

I don't know if this is "right" or not....but after the meal was ordered, could you have cornered the waitperson, like before she left the table and quietly ask for something you could eat.

I don't think that it is rude to ask for something that you can eat "at a resturant"

and if Uncle's BF is going to be a whiney butt about it -- remind him that if you were allergic to something he wouldn't expect you to eat it now would he.  Well you are "allergic" to meat, and meat products.   

Maybe that would put a different spin on it for him.  I think more people "understand" and accept allergic than "I don't eat it for <insert reason here>"