When does 'keeping up with the Joneses' become stalkerish?

[willow08]

Yikes. I don't blame Tammy for being annoyed. Cheryl sounds like a sad little person with mixed up priorities. I would not let Cheryl in my house any more, just based on the fact that she rifled through papers on son's desk. Lord knows what else she's rifled through. (Bills, wills, bank statements.)  would also change the locks to my house and possibly install a secruity system because this person sounds ike the type to "stop in" when no one's home.


Tammy should talk to her hubby about this and try to gauge how much they're willing to put up with. The only thing I would tell the kids is that it's rude to discuss how much things cost and what you recently bought. (Because that's true)

Generally people like this, whom I call "info sharks", stop coming around when there's no more info bait around. Tammy should avoid all conversations that involve financial decisions.

Ultimately, the only one being hurt here is Cheryl and her credit rating. If Tammy feels like her quality of life is being affected, i.e. not being able to take a cooking class without Cheryl there, she may want to sit down and have a heart to heart with Cheryl about wanting to have some privacy in certain activities. Using the "I think we're getting too involved in each other's lives" statement might work.

[supernova]

I feel sorry for both of them:  Cheryl, for having to deal with this; and Tammy, for having such a negative sense of herself that she has to do these things.  Frankly, there is only one way to deal with neighbors that irritate you:  Move. 

In all sincerity, I second the motion about dropping hints to Cheryl that Tammy's family is "looking at homes in X neighborhood."  Tammy and hubby and kids can go to a few Open Houses and get a couple of real estate brochures.  You can "look at homes" without buying one; people do it all the time.

Without wishing bankruptcy on Cheryl's family, it might trigger getting Cheryl to consider moving.  And that would be win-win for both of them:  Cheryl would be "bigger and better" and Tammy would be rid of her semi-stalker.  Then maybe Cheryl would find someone else to copy, and hopefully learn to tone it down a bit.

     - saphie

[Tabris]

After reading through t his thread, here's what I don't get:

Tammy got diamond earrings for Christmas this year. When Cheryl asked what she got and Tammy showed her, Cheryl looked directly at her husband and said she wanted some but her's had better be a carat larger. Right in front of Tammy! Tammy's family went and adopted a puppy from the pound. Cheryl went out and bought a purebred pup. Tammy says the last three trips they've taken, no little than a week later, Cheryl's family has gone to the same place, but of course stayed in more expensive hotels, ate at better restaurants, etc.

She's not just imitating--she's trying to one-up Tammy. So not only is Cheryl unable to think of her own ideas, but she thinks the ones she's stealing aren't up to her standards either. It's as if she's plagiarizing a paper that she would have graded a C.    Then throwing in a bigger word or two to make it look like it's more intelligent.

I would say Tammy should go in the opposite direction. Rather than saying she was going to go to a better neighborhood or was going on an expensive vacation, she should say they're going to go camping somewhere just off the highway, or they're thinking of selling their Acura and buying a 1991 Civic. When they can't avoid one another, Tammy should dress down in jeans with holes and a ratty sweatshirt from a concert she attended in 1988. That way Cheryl can feel she's one-upped Tammy without having to do anything, and CHeryl might begin to set her sights elsewhere.

This means, of course, Tammy cannot let Cheryl into the house. No matter what. Or Cheryl will see she's faking it. But it would be worth it in the long run.

[Sirius]

By the way, I never keep up with the Joneses.

I drag 'em down to my level. 

It's cheaper.

Actually, I don't even care what the Joneses think. 

I do think this woman is worthy of pity because she doesn't seem to have an original thought.  However, if I'd caught someone rifling through papers on my desk, they'd never be allowed in my home again. 

[Bethalize]

So, how far is this sort of behavior just 'silly' and when does it become offensive? And what do you do about it if you DON'T want to be nasty to someone?

First, not being nasty doesn't mean not acknowledging the truth. Hiding things instead of bringing them into the open prolongs things. Tammy needs to bring this into the open and let Cheryl know that she has noticed and that it is not normal behaviour. If Tammy wants to be nice - and personally I wouldn't feel the need - she could be reassuring that Cheryl has good taste and can make her own decisions. But Tammy should definitely say she's noticed.

[ZipTheWonder]

My friends couldn't possibly reproduce my life at their house, because I just don't share everything with them about our home, our vacations, our gifts, our purchases, etc.  They don't know what's in my safe, what's on my planner, or what's in my closets.  Tammy really can shut this down by not sharing information with Cheryl, if she wants to.  I have to wonder if she's not that bothered by it.

Until/unless it becomes dangerous, Tammy is just someone who hasn't developed her own tastes or interests.  I think it's weird (to repeat: I *do* think it's weird), but I'd just shrug my shoulders and think it's weird. I don't see any reason to develop a tactic other than to cut off information if Tammy really finds it bothersome for someone else to have the same stuff she has.

[nutraxfornerves]

Since it looks like Cheryl is getting her jollies from one-upping, it might help if Tammy ignores things as much as possible. Cheryl drives up in a new car like Tammy's, only better. Tammy says nothing, not even "I see you have a new car." Cheryl finally says "Like me new car?" Tammy says, deadpan. "Oh, you got a new car. Did you see "Survivor" last night? Who do you think will win?"

Cheryl invites Tammy to see Sonny's redecorated bedroom. Tammy does not notice that anything is different. "Is there something special that you wanted to show me here?"

Cheryl says "Joe is going to the Jets game, too. He got some really good box seats." Tammy says "I hear it will be a good game."

In other words, Tammy seems oblivious to Cheryl's purchases. If Tammy not only appears not to care, but actually appears not to even notice, then Cheryl's pleasure in the whole thing is much diminished.

"What did you kids get on their report cards?" This one gets tricky. Any refusal to discuss will look like Tammy doesn't want to admit the kids did poorly, which fits Cheryl's agenda. Maybe something like this:"They did just fine. Are you guys going to the picnic next week?" "No, really, what were their grades? Did your son get an A in English?" "Cheryl, my husband and I agreed that our kids can decide whom they will share their grades with. The kids like being able to decide on how private they can be." "Oh, you can tell me." "No, I won't go back on my promise to the kids. Besides, I can't imagine how their grades are intersting to anyone outside our family"

[Secret]

"Maybe Tammy could turn the tables on her a bit by asking her what she thinks, or beating her to the punch. "I can't decide which dish I want to make. Cheryl, what are you making?" "I can't decide what to get my DD for her birthday. What are you getting yours?" "We're trying to pick a vacation spot for next year. What do you reccommend?" Might be enough to prove to Cheryl that she can make her own decisions, or at least it will annoy her enough that she'll leave Tammy alone."

I really like this idea.  See what Cheryl says.  Does she even have ideas of her own or is she just lying in wait to one up Tammy.

What does Tammy's Husband think? Because if the men are friends, I'm sure he tells the Hubby stuff even if Tammy starts to withhold info.

[ZipTheWonder]

Deadpan: "My kids have asked that I not share their grades with others, and I plan to respect that request."

I totally agree that doing nothing is best.  Anything else legitimizes this, plays into it, encourages it along.  If that is not Tammy's intention, she needs to go into blah-boring-deadpan mode about this. 

[Slartibartfast]

Some people are just REALLY competitive - they aren't able to tell whether their accomplishments should give them good self-esteem or not, so they measure everything against someone else and then feel proud about "winning."  The best thing to do is ignore them and refuse to give them anything to measure against, and they will eventually give up.

I have a cousin who sounds a lot like Cheryl.  She's a year younger than I am, and VERY competitive - every time she did something that could be compared to someone else, she had to find out how everyone else did.  What standardized test scores she got, what grades she got, achieving first-chair flute in the band, etc.  We were both very good students, and in truth my test scores and grades were usually slightly better.  When I was young, I didn't know to keep everything to myself, so when she asked me questions, I answered.  That resulted in a lot of

Cousin:  "So what activities do you do after school?"
Me:  "I'm still taking piano and swimming lessons, and I'm in a play now, and I'm writing a book of poetry I hope to get published."
Cousin:  "Oh, I'm going to a STATEWIDE flute competition next month; my teacher says I will probably win.  I went to state for baton-twirling this year, too.  And I got the lead role in the school play.  And I'm planning to write a NOVEL!"

By high school and college, I knew never to give her anything to compare to me, and my mom did the same for my cousin's dad (my mom's older brother, also highly competitive).  I refused to let my mom tell my grandparents my SAT score, because I knew it would get back to my cousin.  Sure enough, when SHE took the SAT, my uncle sent out a family-wide email bragging about the score she got and what colleges were sending her mail.  After I got into Duke, she decided she just HAD to go to Yale (and did).  When I became a music major, so did she - but she was BETTER (somehow, not sure how she compared that one).  When DH and I got engaged, she got engaged a month later, and her wedding was a week after ours.

When I feel like being snarky, I tell myself that at least I married a guy :-D  (She didn't, and although normally I'm pretty progressive on that sort of thing, part of me needs that one-up.)

Moral of the story: if you refuse to give any information about yourself or your achievements, competitive people have to go find another target (or just brag anyway, and you can laugh behind their back when you see that they don't measure up to you.)

[Sandi Papaya]

I have two words for y'all: Cousin. June.

The Queen of One-Upmanship. OK, that was more than two words - and I will say more.

My advice to Tammy: ignore her, be neutral about everything she does ("oh. That's nice. Listen, I have to go wash my hair/wax my thighs/stand over there *points* now.") Ignore, ignore, ignore.

Let her know what is clearly out of bounds - "I'm sorry, but those papers aren't for you to look at. You should leave now, please" - and show her the door. As to the kids' grades, "I'm sorry, but we've made it policy not to disclose the kids' grades - we're just happy they did well." Make sure the kids know about the policy, too - not to drag the kids into it, but she did start it by nosing around with the kids and hubby. Every time she comes sniffing for information, throw cayenne pepper in her trail (figuratively speaking, of course). Put her off.

Refuse to (directly) discuss any decisions of ANYTHING you are going to do, vacation or activity-wise. "Oh, I can't decide if we're going to Disneyland Paris or Australia this summer, we just haven't figured it out yet. [and your cabin at Yosemite has been reserved for months already]" "Oh, I can't decide if I want to take underwater basket-weaving or if I'm going to take up the sushi-preparation class." [and you are already signed up for Aikido] "Hmmm, we still haven't decided if we want the Jag or the Lexus." [and you've already gone to the dealer's and signed the papers on the Acura] And so on.

The key here is Cheryl not getting to Tammy. My cousin June invited everyone over for Christmas Eve dinner to admire her house, her things, but especially her new, custom-built, backyard swimming pool (who wants to admire, or use, a pool in DECEMBER? It's cold outside, even here!). My mom (who was there; I was home sick with the Killer Kold from Outer Space, which I still have icky remnants of), remained neutral about everything. "Oh. You have a pool. How nice."

"How nice" are my two favorite words in the English language that substitute for "yawn." I mean, honestly, I grew up in California (true, it was the Northern part, but summers here can get pretty hot inland, and pretty much every other house down South has [surprise!] a pool in the backyard) and I went to college in SoCal - how many backyard pools haven't I seen in my life?

The last time I saw her that she had something to try to "impress" me with was her new Toyota Sequoia (I live in suburbia - SUVs and minivans aren't anything out of the ordinary to me). My reaction? "Oh, a new car. Call me when you take delivery on the Citroën." And I walked off.

Evil, but it worked. She doesn't know what a Citroën is, or why I would be more impressed by that than by your everyday, gas-guzzling, atmosphere-choking, parking-lot-crowding SUV.

[supernova]

"Oh. You have a pool. How nice."

"How nice" are my two favorite words in the English language that substitute for "yawn."

Oh, my goodness.  I absolutely hate to post something OT, especially if it might be slightly offensive.  But there's a marvellous joke about one-upsmanship versus true class that uses the words "how nice," and I soooo badly want to share it.

Would it be offensive to post it in this thread?

     - saphie

[FoxPaws]

But there's a marvellous joke about one-upsmanship versus true class that uses the words "how nice," and I soooo badly want to share it.

Well, you've one upped me by being polite and asking first. I was just coming on to post it. I'm assuming this is the one involving the two southern belles........

[heathert]

Yikes. I don't blame Tammy for being annoyed. Cheryl sounds like a sad little person with mixed up priorities. I would not let Cheryl in my house any more, just based on the fact that she rifled through papers on son's desk. Lord knows what else she's rifled through. (Bills, wills, bank statements.)  would also change the locks to my house and possibly install a secruity system because this person sounds ike the type to "stop in" when no one's home.

I tend to agree with you.  To me, this is starting to sound too much like "Single White Female."  I would make it a point to give her as little information as possible, in addition to the above, and if that doesn't work, start a paper trail and filing for a restraining order. 

Heather

[mrsbrandt]

Can someone please tell the joke and just preface that it's a sidebar...I really want to know what it is now...the suspense is killing me!