Author Topic: Empowering the people ie Don't let the Teacher's Pets have all the fun  (Read 41978 times)

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The Legend of Daisy

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Re: Empowering the people ie Don't let the Teacher's Pets have all the fun
« Reply #60 on: October 15, 2011, 01:35:33 PM »
But isn't that how threads should die?  After the best points are made, often in the first three to four pages, the reasonable posters wander off to new threads leaving the thread to sputter out with the "dogs" fighting amongst themselves over rechewed details.  Many of the forum "pillars" are so good at expressing themselves that they only need one post to express their opinion.  I notice the exact moment there is an exodus of the forum heavyweights from a thread and I am sure I'm not the only one.   I would disagree that the community loses when the scrabbling continues over minor points.  They only lose if they keep going back to the thread and either entering into the fray or allow it to weigh them down.   

So, keep doing what you are doing, i.e. inputting into threads with an opinion, walking away when it is no longer productive and if necessary, contact a mod to report that a thread has devolved into circular argumentation and is no longer of any productive use.  (And note that this means the *thread* gets moderated, not individuals since it takes more than one person to have a never ending argument.)    And then relax in the knowledge that readers can figure out who are the people to trust and who just likes to gnaw on the bone over and over.

That's quite an interesting viewpoint. I must say that doesn't seem like a satisfactory ending to a thread at all.

I do find it very helpful that you and the mods are openly communicating for the last few days, even when I don't agree with the answer. It's much better when questions are answered.

Disagreement is not rude but we have been getting a LOT more reports in recent months where people seem to believe that it is.  The mods unanimously do not respond to complaints citing the act of disagreeing as rude and the offender should be moderated.

I'm not sure why this answer was tagged onto my post, but I'm the last person to think polite disagreement is rude. I think you might be misunderstanding the problem, it's not about disagreement, it's about a bullish refusal to admit that there might be any other perspective to a problem. It's not the disagreement that is the problem, it's the lack of respect for other posters.

Bexx27

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Re: Empowering the people ie Don't let the Teacher's Pets have all the fun
« Reply #61 on: October 15, 2011, 01:43:36 PM »
(sorry, can't quote on ipad)

Siotehcat, my example may not have been the best to express my point. The specific post I reported had nothing to do with family issues, it was just expressing an outrageous viewpoint that 99 percent of posters would likely disagree with. I found it difficult to come up with an example that wouldn't be too much like any of the actual examples I was thinking of. I absolutely don't think people should be kicked off the board for running their family in a non-traditional way. I'm really just thinking of posts that seem to have been made for shock value, particularly if they border on sexism/racism/other types of discrimination or stereotyping. Posters who seem to try to find buttons to push just set off my troll alarm, kwim?
How far you go in life depends on your being tender with the young, compassionate with the aged, sympathetic with the striving and tolerant of the weak and strong. Because someday in life you will have been all of these. -George Washington Carver

bobsyouruncle

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Re: Empowering the people ie Don't let the Teacher's Pets have all the fun
« Reply #62 on: October 15, 2011, 02:01:16 PM »
What about posts that are not snarky and don't break forum rules, but express an opinion that is really outrageous? Particularly from posters who habitually post over the top things that seem designed to get a strong reaction? I'm thinking along the lines of, "In my family, we believe children are equal to adults and we don't control them or give them rules. They don't have to do anything they don't want to." I usually just roll my eyes at these sorts of posts and put the poster on my troll alert list. But today, with this thread in mind, I reported one. Is that the right thing to do, considering the post is perfectly polite and doesn't violate any forum rules? In the past I've only reported for actual rule violations or outright nastiness.

I actually enjoy reading posts from posters with different opinions with mine - even if they are very different  BUT if I thought a poster was pretending to have an extreme opinion just to get a rise out of other posters I would have no problem reporting them.  I would probably say something just like that too in the report - that I think a poster is pretending to be extreme to get a rise out of others. 

I do think that it would be really really helpful if a mod or two could be added to the roster.  I feel awful thinking that Cass took the time out of her day when someone had passed to take care of an issue in a thread - that's just silly and I don't think anyone expects the mods to be doing it.  Adding mods would prevent things like that from happening and take some of the pressure off of them.

I lurked for a long time before I joined and even in the just about a year since I've been a member I have seen the significant shift in the "tone" of this board that other posters have described.  It makes me sad mad because I like posting here and in the past couple of months I haven't been doing as much of that.  I have done my best to help things along - both by reporting posts that I have thought were against the spirit of the board and by trying to self moderate within threads.  However part of the problem has been posts being deleted and threads locked/deleted (deleted from public view that is - I understand that mods/Jeanne can still read them)  I feel that this combined with the fact that the mods ARE so overworked right now AND the fact that people may not have been reporting posts has lead to a perfect storm situation where (as other posters have pointed out) certain members have gotten away with behavior that seems unbelievable to those posters who *are* seeing all of the posts and remembering posters from thread to thread (while a mod is more likely to only see 1 or 2 threads where the behavior is combined.)  I could (but never would) name 10 - 15 posters off the top of my head (some newer, some who have been here long enough to know better)that I literally have no idea how they are still allowed to post on this board. This is fairly frustrating and I know that I have stopped bothering posting in threads where these people post and I have stopped reading threads they are involved in - believe me when I say this is no small number of threads.

« Last Edit: October 15, 2011, 02:06:28 PM by ladyraske »

cbcb

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Re: Empowering the people ie Don't let the Teacher's Pets have all the fun
« Reply #63 on: October 15, 2011, 02:16:19 PM »
(sorry, can't quote on ipad)

Siotehcat, my example may not have been the best to express my point. The specific post I reported had nothing to do with family issues, it was just expressing an outrageous viewpoint that 99 percent of posters would likely disagree with. I found it difficult to come up with an example that wouldn't be too much like any of the actual examples I was thinking of. I absolutely don't think people should be kicked off the board for running their family in a non-traditional way. I'm really just thinking of posts that seem to have been made for shock value, particularly if they border on sexism/racism/other types of discrimination or stereotyping. Posters who seem to try to find buttons to push just set off my troll alarm, kwim?

So something more like:

"In my family, we believe women should keep their mouths shut and not disagree or challenge men. Men make all choices and that is final, because women aren't capable of such things. Women are too stupid and flighty to be trusted to decide on anything more meaningful than what's for dinner (and even that only from a short list suggested by their husband)".

That I see as reportable - phased in such a way, it doesn't seem the point of view to someone open to discussion or debate, and it's blatantly sexist, even with the couched initial phrasing.

JoieGirl7

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Re: Empowering the people ie Don't let the Teacher's Pets have all the fun
« Reply #64 on: October 15, 2011, 02:43:52 PM »
I think you might be misunderstanding the problem, it's not about disagreement, it's about a bullish refusal to admit that there might be any other perspective to a problem. It's not the disagreement that is the problem, it's the lack of respect for other posters.

People are entitled to keep their opinions.  People don't have the right to demand that others see their side of things.  They can argue that its one way or another, and other people can disagree.  But, to call them out as disrespectful because they refuse to agree or acknowledge another POV, I think, isn't appropriate.

I have seen examples of responses to this and I do think they make the thread go downhill.
 
Catty comments like "but I guess nothing I say will change your mind..."
 
or

"it's obvious you just posted for validation because you are not admitting that you did anything wrong!"
 
Neither of those types of statements advance the discussion.
 
Another type of post that concerns me are the ones where people say "Why did you bother to post?"
 
These are all posts that turn the discussion onto the discussion.  Instead of discussing the topic at hand, posters start discussing the discussion and their fellow posters and how they are discussing.

It turns it into a "meta" thread.

The rules have always been that if you have a problem with someone that you should take it to PM.  I think that doing that or reporting the post to a moderator is much better than turning the thread in on itself.

hobish

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Re: Empowering the people ie Don't let the Teacher's Pets have all the fun
« Reply #65 on: October 15, 2011, 02:50:57 PM »

Mod involvement in a thread is invariably the result of a violation report.  There is a place for comments, although not a drop-down box.   A concise description of the problem, with a summary of the thread when necessary, is immensely helpful.  There are lots of posters who spend way more time on the forum than any of the mods - also, there are way more of you.  The report violation feature is the quickest, most efficient way of notifying us of a problem.  And we rarely know about any problems other than the ones reported.

Really? Not all involvement i hope.  :( I mean, you guys read and post just because you like it, too, right? I always figured you guys are part of the community, too, not just overseers or something. Do you get to just surf around and read and post just because you feel like it?

I noted a long time ago that the minute I participate in a non-moderated, etiquette related thread, everyone goes quiet.  I rarely participate in threads anymore out of courtesy for others having a good time discussing the topic.  I do, however, read the Hugs folder to keep track of what's happening to people, techno-etiquette is a favorite folder, the ghost story thread is a favorite, I check in on the meet and greet folder occasionally (Is everyone having fun in there?).  I usually wander around the forum peeking in on interesting discussions.
[/quote][/quote]

Awww! You should be able to discuss and have a good time, too, and i really hope all of the mods can. It just doesn't seem fair that y'all have to play Mom all of the time here. I do see where you are coming from, though.  :) I have often wondered - and this is Not a question, just a little daydream i have - that you have an alternate EHell log in so you can play around without the The Dame Hath Spoken effect  :)


...i've tried in vain to fix the quote tags, but i can't figure it out
« Last Edit: October 15, 2011, 02:56:14 PM by hobish »
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The Legend of Daisy

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Re: Empowering the people ie Don't let the Teacher's Pets have all the fun
« Reply #66 on: October 15, 2011, 03:29:23 PM »
I'm not quoting because I'm on my phone.

Audrey you say that you can't demand that other people see your point of view. I actually think that if you're discussing something in a thread the other posters have every right to expect you to see and acknowledge their POV. No-one can demand you agree, but if you don't want to be exposed to or admit the existence of dissenting opinions then why participate in an online discussion in the first place.

ETA it would be inappropriate to take the type of behaviour I'm talking about to  PM because it has nothing to do with any individual discussion and everything to do with a pattern of behaviour   
« Last Edit: October 15, 2011, 03:31:52 PM by The Legend of Daisy »

Wendy Moira Angela Pan

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Re: Empowering the people ie Don't let the Teacher's Pets have all the fun
« Reply #67 on: October 15, 2011, 04:25:57 PM »

 But, to call them out as disrespectful because they refuse to agree or acknowledge another POV, I think, isn't appropriate.

I have seen examples of responses to this and I do think they make the thread go downhill.
 
Catty comments like "but I guess nothing I say will change your mind..."
 
or

"it's obvious you just posted for validation because you are not admitting that you did anything wrong!"
 
Neither of those types of statements advance the discussion.
 
Another type of post that concerns me are the ones where people say "Why did you bother to post?"
 
These are all posts that turn the discussion onto the discussion.  Instead of discussing the topic at hand, posters start discussing the discussion and their fellow posters and how they are discussing.

It turns it into a "meta" thread.

The rules have always been that if you have a problem with someone that you should take it to PM.  I think that doing that or reporting the post to a moderator is much better than turning the thread in on itself.

I completely agree that these types of posts add nothing to the discussion! And I think they're rather rude, to boot. The last time I saw remarks like that made in a thread, the OP even had about half the posters on her side. But some people were accusing her of posting for justification. A couple just kept saying it over and over. Is it really necessary to changes your mind about how to approach an issue after posting about it in the forum? Often I am nearly decided on what I want to do, and talking it over here helps me be more confident about my decision. Or sometimes I am almost sure what I am going to do, and the board convinces me that my plans are inadvisable. Am I wasting people's time if I ask for their opinion, and am unconvinced by their arguments?

JoieGirl7

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Re: Empowering the people ie Don't let the Teacher's Pets have all the fun
« Reply #68 on: October 15, 2011, 04:50:31 PM »
I'm not quoting because I'm on my phone.

Audrey you say that you can't demand that other people see your point of view. I actually think that if you're discussing something in a thread the other posters have every right to expect you to see and acknowledge their POV. No-one can demand you agree, but if you don't want to be exposed to or admit the existence of dissenting opinions then why participate in an online discussion in the first place.

I think the only thing you have a right to expect is that others will treat you politely. 
 
If someone doesn't want to address your posts for whatever reason they have the right to do that.
 
I have never seen any poster assert that there were no dissenting opinions.  If they don't want to argue with people who hold dissenting opinions, that is their right.

Shores

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Re: Empowering the people ie Don't let the Teacher's Pets have all the fun
« Reply #69 on: October 15, 2011, 04:54:22 PM »
I'm not quoting because I'm on my phone.

Audrey you say that you can't demand that other people see your point of view. I actually think that if you're discussing something in a thread the other posters have every right to expect you to see and acknowledge their POV. No-one can demand you agree, but if you don't want to be exposed to or admit the existence of dissenting opinions then why participate in an online discussion in the first place.

I think the only thing you have a right to expect is that others will treat you politely. 
 
If someone doesn't want to address your posts for whatever reason they have the right to do that.
 
I have never seen any poster assert that there were no dissenting opinions.  If they don't want to argue with people who hold dissenting opinions, that is their right.
I have to agree with AQ; I think this falls into "annoying as heck" but not reportable territory. There are other annoying posting habits, like a poster who ALWAYS has to have the last word and will come back to a discussion that they've "quit" 5 times already because they just can't stand not having that last word or a poster who immediately calls "abuse!", recommends calling CPS and breaks out "The Gift of Fear" any time someone has a fight with their partner. But in a group of hundreds (if not over a thousand) online at the same time, there will always be behaviours that annoy you.
Wherever you go.... there you are.

jillybean

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Re: Empowering the people ie Don't let the Teacher's Pets have all the fun
« Reply #70 on: October 15, 2011, 04:57:54 PM »
I went through a period where I got really frustrated with the way so many threads seemed to turn into a few posters going over and over and over the same points and nitpicking an issue to death no matter how trivial.  I would always laugh and tell my husband, "You will not believe what these ridiculous people are arguing over now."

Then I realized that that's very entertaining and mentally stimulating for some people.  Not me, mind you, but it's just a lot of fun for some people to debate an issue up, down and sideways.  They aren't being malicious.  Once I realized that, if it starts happening, I just quit reading the thread because I find it tedious and boring, but I no longer get frustrated or roll my eyes at these people.  Their idea of a good time is just different from mine.
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aventurine

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Re: Empowering the people ie Don't let the Teacher's Pets have all the fun
« Reply #71 on: October 15, 2011, 11:26:12 PM »
I'm with LadyPekoe. 

I tend to be very lenient when it comes to reporting things (although I have sent reports to  mods), and I think I've been remiss.  There are some posters I see that are constantly behaving in a snarky way and many I think who abuse this forum to an extent.  From now on, I'm going to report those posts.   It sounds like the mods could use a heads up and I think it will make this forum a better place if the habitual offenders were properly warned/gagged/banned.

Hoo boy, am I late to this party - s'what I get for taking subject lines literally   ;D

Anyway, what she said.  I've reported posts before a few times, but A) I have a really high tolerance for BS until it becomes a raging storm that I assume has been reported to death; B) I have no trolldar; and C) I'm usually hanging out in E&N.

What I won't report is stuff that I figure is just my own bias/preferences seeping through.







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General Jinjur

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Re: Empowering the people ie Don't let the Teacher's Pets have all the fun
« Reply #72 on: October 16, 2011, 07:32:47 AM »
Is there a character limit to the explanation box when you report a post? Last time I reported a post it wasn't because the post itself was bad but because the entire thread seemed to be going downhill but I wasn't sure how much of an explanation I could put into the box so I was very short. Now I wonder if I can get a wordier explanation in if there is a next time.

You could always write, "Thread gone off rails. Send help."

LadyL

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Re: Empowering the people ie Don't let the Teacher's Pets have all the fun
« Reply #73 on: October 16, 2011, 10:03:19 AM »
Reports I send usually go something like:

"Thread getting political, instigated by this poster."
or
"Snarky response; thread getting heated."

iridaceae

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Re: Empowering the people ie Don't let the Teacher's Pets have all the fun
« Reply #74 on: October 16, 2011, 10:08:36 AM »
I've only sent notifying of spam thread, unless I've accidentally hit the button once or twice and sent them when I didn't mean to.