Author Topic: Your holiday hill to die on.  (Read 222124 times)

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Corvid

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Re: Your holiday hill to die on.
« Reply #540 on: December 06, 2012, 10:29:03 AM »
The other mom replied "Actually we're *religion that doesn't celebrate Christmas in any capacity* but he wanted the free candy cane." So you let your kid stand in a line with little kids who want to meet Santa and laugh as he complains how stupid kids who believe in Santa are? Real nice.  ::)

 ::)  Just go buy your kid a candy cane, lady.

Jules1980

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Re: Your holiday hill to die on.
« Reply #541 on: December 06, 2012, 10:36:07 AM »
The other mom replied "Actually we're *religion that doesn't celebrate Christmas in any capacity* but he wanted the free candy cane." So you let your kid stand in a line with little kids who want to meet Santa and laugh as he complains how stupid kids who believe in Santa are? Real nice.  ::)

 ::)  Just go buy your kid a candy cane, lady.

Truly.  Who stands in a line just for a candy cane?  Especially that line that always seems packed and moves at glacial pace?

wheeitsme

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Re: Your holiday hill to die on.
« Reply #542 on: December 06, 2012, 11:50:16 AM »
When my children would ask me why that child would say Santa was a lie, I would also reply "Because he/she must have been on the bad list of Santa's and didn't receive any presents, her/his parents must try to fill the void of Santa's visit's to make him/her feel better.  Try not to make them feel any worse then they must do, just say ok and walk away".  Worked every time, the louder the child proclaiming Santa isn't real the more my believed just how naughty those children were.

That seems like an incredible offensive way to handle it. Why on earth would you do that? Lying about other kids being naughty seems way past the realm of acceptable behaviour.

But I can see that there is an element of truth to it.  It's "Naughty" rather than "Nice" to try and destroy a child's belief in something like that.  And the more you try to destroy a child's happy belief, the naughtier it is...

Tea Drinker

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Re: Your holiday hill to die on.
« Reply #543 on: December 06, 2012, 12:25:09 PM »
When my children would ask me why that child would say Santa was a lie, I would also reply "Because he/she must have been on the bad list of Santa's and didn't receive any presents, her/his parents must try to fill the void of Santa's visit's to make him/her feel better.  Try not to make them feel any worse then they must do, just say ok and walk away".  Worked every time, the louder the child proclaiming Santa isn't real the more my believed just how naughty those children were.

That seems like an incredible offensive way to handle it. Why on earth would you do that? Lying about other kids being naughty seems way past the realm of acceptable behaviour.

But I can see that there is an element of truth to it.  It's "Naughty" rather than "Nice" to try and destroy a child's belief in something like that.  And the more you try to destroy a child's happy belief, the naughtier it is...

There are people who think it is naughty to lie to children in that way--and if you don't believe but lead children to believe, it is a lie. (Someone who genuinely believes in the Purple religion is not lying when they teach it to their children.) I don't see how it's better to tell children "Santa brings presents to all good children" when there are good children who don't get Christmas presents because their families aren't Christian, or whose presents are all labeled as from parents and grandparents, than to tell a kid that there is no Santa Claus, or that Santa Claus is a make-believe game their parents are playing.

You can tell your kids something like "Santa only takes presents to children who write to him" without implying that their non-Christian friends, Christian friends who don't believe in Santa, or older cousins who don't get presents from Santa are all naughty.
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wheeitsme

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Re: Your holiday hill to die on.
« Reply #544 on: December 06, 2012, 01:31:22 PM »
When my children would ask me why that child would say Santa was a lie, I would also reply "Because he/she must have been on the bad list of Santa's and didn't receive any presents, her/his parents must try to fill the void of Santa's visit's to make him/her feel better.  Try not to make them feel any worse then they must do, just say ok and walk away".  Worked every time, the louder the child proclaiming Santa isn't real the more my believed just how naughty those children were.

That seems like an incredible offensive way to handle it. Why on earth would you do that? Lying about other kids being naughty seems way past the realm of acceptable behaviour.

But I can see that there is an element of truth to it.  It's "Naughty" rather than "Nice" to try and destroy a child's belief in something like that.  And the more you try to destroy a child's happy belief, the naughtier it is...

There are people who think it is naughty to lie to children in that way--and if you don't believe but lead children to believe, it is a lie. (Someone who genuinely believes in the Purple religion is not lying when they teach it to their children.) I don't see how it's better to tell children "Santa brings presents to all good children" when there are good children who don't get Christmas presents because their families aren't Christian, or whose presents are all labeled as from parents and grandparents, than to tell a kid that there is no Santa Claus, or that Santa Claus is a make-believe game their parents are playing.

You can tell your kids something like "Santa only takes presents to children who write to him" without implying that their non-Christian friends, Christian friends who don't believe in Santa, or older cousins who don't get presents from Santa are all naughty.

She's not implying that those who don't get presents from Santa are naughty.  She's implying that people who try to destroy a young child's belief in Santa is naughty.  The OP wrote "my children would ask me why that child would say Santa was a lie". 

I was the youngest of four kids, so I figured out pretty early that Santa was just a fun game my Parents and I played.  At 5 years, I made sure my Mom knew what I wanted from Santa  ;) .  I also knew that it would be mean for me to ruin it for kids who still wanted to believe in the incarnation of Santa.  Telling people the ending who haven't asked isn't nice.  They are called "Spoilers" for a reason.

NyaChan

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Re: Your holiday hill to die on.
« Reply #545 on: December 06, 2012, 02:13:21 PM »
I accidentally told people Santa wasn't real in preschool - I didn't realize the significance of Santa in terms of childhood and innocence, I just thought it was a "people who are in-the-know know" sort of thing. My teacher immediately pulled me aside, and explained that importance of keeping the illusion for others even if I knew otherwise (my family isn't Christian and didn't celebrate Christmas or do the Santa thing).  She asked me to explain so that they could still have their fun.  So that's when I went back to fix it, I said - that I didn't mean Santa wasn't real at all, it was that my family didn't believe in Santa, so for us, Santa wasn't real.  I still hope I didn't completely ruin it for everyone else  :-\

JenJay

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Re: Your holiday hill to die on.
« Reply #546 on: December 06, 2012, 04:21:55 PM »
The other mom replied "Actually we're *religion that doesn't celebrate Christmas in any capacity* but he wanted the free candy cane." So you let your kid stand in a line with little kids who want to meet Santa and laugh as he complains how stupid kids who believe in Santa are? Real nice.  ::)

 ::)  Just go buy your kid a candy cane, lady.

Truly.  Who stands in a line just for a candy cane?  Especially that line that always seems packed and moves at glacial pace?

To be fair this was the middle of the afternoon on a weekday so the line wasn't too bad. "My" kids were homeschooled. But yeah, buying a stupid candy cane would have been quicker and easier, not to mention zero risk of upsetting a bunch of other kids.

ladyknight1

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Re: Your holiday hill to die on.
« Reply #547 on: December 06, 2012, 04:48:42 PM »
I work with a very diverse group of people. We have every conceivable ethnicity and religion represented in our overall unit. One of our co-workers is Jehovah's Witness, and is offended (and lets everyone know that she is) if anyone mentions a work party/event that even hints of some holiday or seasonal celebration. I am glad she doesn't work in our suite, because we have monthly birthday celebrations and she would make a huge fuss over those.

Asharah

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Re: Your holiday hill to die on.
« Reply #548 on: December 06, 2012, 07:49:12 PM »
Does anyone remember the show "Welcome Back Kotter" with Gabe Kaplan and John Travolta as Barbarino? I remember Mr. Kotter sarcastically asked the (evil) principal Mr. Woodman, "What do you do on Xmas Eve? Go door-to-door telling kids there's no Santa Claus?" Woodman's response, "Well somebody has to do it!"  ::)
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Lynn2000

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Re: Your holiday hill to die on.
« Reply #549 on: December 06, 2012, 08:29:18 PM »
I like Santa!  :D I had some fun with it when I was little, seeing the cookies with a bite taken out of them the next morning and so forth. I don't remember any particular trauma associated with it; I suppose there was just a sort of gradual realization of the greater symbolic value of being generous with others, and of who was actually performing the practical aspects.

To me it's interesting how contentious an issue it can be. In some families it's considered an outright lie, in others the grown-ups strain to preserve the idea long after the kids have changed their minds about it. And of course lots of attitudes in between. Maybe we could start a Santa-related spin-off thread? That would be fun.
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Emmy

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Re: Your holiday hill to die on.
« Reply #550 on: December 08, 2012, 08:59:16 AM »
When my children would ask me why that child would say Santa was a lie, I would also reply "Because he/she must have been on the bad list of Santa's and didn't receive any presents, her/his parents must try to fill the void of Santa's visit's to make him/her feel better.  Try not to make them feel any worse then they must do, just say ok and walk away".  Worked every time, the louder the child proclaiming Santa isn't real the more my believed just how naughty those children were.

That seems like an incredible offensive way to handle it. Why on earth would you do that? Lying about other kids being naughty seems way past the realm of acceptable behaviour.

But I can see that there is an element of truth to it.  It's "Naughty" rather than "Nice" to try and destroy a child's belief in something like that.  And the more you try to destroy a child's happy belief, the naughtier it is...

There are people who think it is naughty to lie to children in that way--and if you don't believe but lead children to believe, it is a lie. (Someone who genuinely believes in the Purple religion is not lying when they teach it to their children.) I don't see how it's better to tell children "Santa brings presents to all good children" when there are good children who don't get Christmas presents because their families aren't Christian, or whose presents are all labeled as from parents and grandparents, than to tell a kid that there is no Santa Claus, or that Santa Claus is a make-believe game their parents are playing.

You can tell your kids something like "Santa only takes presents to children who write to him" without implying that their non-Christian friends, Christian friends who don't believe in Santa, or older cousins who don't get presents from Santa are all naughty.

She's not implying that those who don't get presents from Santa are naughty.  She's implying that people who try to destroy a young child's belief in Santa is naughty. The OP wrote "my children would ask me why that child would say Santa was a lie". 

I was the youngest of four kids, so I figured out pretty early that Santa was just a fun game my Parents and I played.  At 5 years, I made sure my Mom knew what I wanted from Santa  ;) .  I also knew that it would be mean for me to ruin it for kids who still wanted to believe in the incarnation of Santa.  Telling people the ending who haven't asked isn't nice.  They are called "Spoilers" for a reason.

I agree that the bolded was the intent of the post and also agree that it is naughty to destroy a young child's belief in Santa.  It is a private matter within a family what they teach their children about Santa and people have different reasons for feeling different ways.  It is rudeness and the height of being egocentric to encourage or be proud of you child spoiling other children's belief in Santa.  If your family chooses not to have your child believe in Santa, fine, but respect those who don't make the same choices.  I also feel it would be rude to try to get children to believe in Santa when their family has chosen not to do so.

*I have a very young child (too young for Santa) and I don't know where I stand on the issue.

Ambrosia Hino

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Re: Your holiday hill to die on.
« Reply #551 on: December 10, 2012, 01:34:59 PM »
Well, I thought I was going to get through this year with no hills...no such luck

My SIL is wanting to have the family get together at a hotel/restaurant in the town she lives in, which is about halfway between our house and FIL's house, under the comment of "no set up or tear down." I absolutely abhor the idea of making people have to work Christmas Day...I don't care if they're "planning to be open anyway" because they wouldn't be if there wasn't a demand. I don't want to go out to eat for Christmas Dinner, it just feels wrong. I think I upset SIL by asking why she wanted to tear people away from their families for Christmas though...

Add in the undercurrent, that DH thinks she's trying to schedule her in-laws to be there too, so that both families have an awkward and uncomfortable dinner together, just so she and her hubby can be with everyone...no. They had Thanksgiving with his family, I don't even know them, I don't want to spend my Christmas afternoon with people I don't know. Apparently, I'm unreasonable (DH's attitude...he didn't say it, but that's my impression of his attitude).

I'm considering offering the compromise of going out for Christmas Eve, on the condition that we spend Christmas Day at home, just DH, me, and Toddler. That was my plan for Christmas Eve, spend it just the 3 of us, at home, just relaxing and enjoying each other.

sunnygirl

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Re: Your holiday hill to die on.
« Reply #552 on: December 10, 2012, 01:47:52 PM »
The way our mother explained it when we were old enough to know (actually, it was first broken to me in a rather jarring manner, so I've got mixed feelings about the whole "Santa" thing, but this actually helped), there was a man called St. Nicholas, as you said.  The legend says that he dropped bags of gold down the chimneys of the needy.  When the real man passed away a very long time ago, people honored his memory by continuing to give to the needy every Christmas, which eventually graduated to exchanging gifts.  Santa is real in that the spirit of giving can live on in all of us.  So she said.  ;)

I don't know how much of that is true, but it's a nice idea.
That is so lovely, thank you for posting. If I ever have kids that's what I'll do.
It's funny, growing up we 'did' Santa (leaving a mince pie and a carrot for the reindeer out), but I always knew he wasn't real, and that it was just my dad. It was all very wink wink. It was just a nice tradition.

Outdoor Girl

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Re: Your holiday hill to die on.
« Reply #553 on: December 10, 2012, 01:56:38 PM »
My first clue should have been that we didn't leave cookies and milk, we left mincemeat tarts and a can of coke.  Which just happened to be my Dad's favourite.

I was a very naive child and my 5 years older brother was very good about playing along for my sake.  The year I expressed some doubt, my parents decided it was time.  In our house we always left our letters for Santa on the fireplace hearth.  My brother had written, 'Oh, by the way, Santa, could you please fix my snowmobile?'  The next morning, in my Dad's handwritting, 'Fix your own dingdangity snowmobile.  What do you think I am, a mechanic?'  That clinched it.   ;)

We still do stockings, though.  It is a mad scramble on Christmas Eve, just before bed while we all try to put stuff in other people's stockings without noticing what's going into our own.
I have CDO.  It is like OCD but with the letters in alphabetical order, as they should be.
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Emmy

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Re: Your holiday hill to die on.
« Reply #554 on: December 10, 2012, 03:12:56 PM »
Well, I thought I was going to get through this year with no hills...no such luck

My SIL is wanting to have the family get together at a hotel/restaurant in the town she lives in, which is about halfway between our house and FIL's house, under the comment of "no set up or tear down." I absolutely abhor the idea of making people have to work Christmas Day...I don't care if they're "planning to be open anyway" because they wouldn't be if there wasn't a demand. I don't want to go out to eat for Christmas Dinner, it just feels wrong. I think I upset SIL by asking why she wanted to tear people away from their families for Christmas though...

Add in the undercurrent, that DH thinks she's trying to schedule her in-laws to be there too, so that both families have an awkward and uncomfortable dinner together, just so she and her hubby can be with everyone...no. They had Thanksgiving with his family, I don't even know them, I don't want to spend my Christmas afternoon with people I don't know. Apparently, I'm unreasonable (DH's attitude...he didn't say it, but that's my impression of his attitude).

I'm considering offering the compromise of going out for Christmas Eve, on the condition that we spend Christmas Day at home, just DH, me, and Toddler. That was my plan for Christmas Eve, spend it just the 3 of us, at home, just relaxing and enjoying each other.

I don't blame your sister in law for being upset.  It seems quite rude for you to accuse her of wanting to tear people from their families on Christmas.  It's one thing to have an opinion and even disagree politely with somebody else.  It is another thing to make unfair accusations to get your point across.