Author Topic: Policing what members of a club do in their spare time?  (Read 18799 times)

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Miss Vertigo

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Re: Policing what members of a club do in their spare time?
« Reply #15 on: October 26, 2011, 07:46:41 AM »
To be honest, I can see where a club leader would not like this at all.  Having a super-secret group for a special 15% of the club sounds very clique-y to me, and cliques can be very corrosive to group dynamics, especially if the club is trying to foster a open, friendly atmosphere.

She is probably not going about it the right way, but I can see her wanting to get rid of it.

But it doesn't sound like that at all. From the information in the OP, the Facebook group doesn't seem to be for club activities, and is not excluding members who don't belong to it from any activities concerning the club.


IDK, "a longstanding personality within the club" creating a super secret group for "her" friends within the club, all long term members, sounds like a clique to me.

Depends on your definition of cliquey, I suppose. If they were using it as an extension of club activities and causing people to be left out, then maybe. But since it seems to only be a social group for people who are already close friends, I don't see it as cliquey at all. I don't see it as much different to a few members who happen to be close friends getting together for dinner or to go to the pub outside official club times. But then I don't subscribe to the 'you must invite everyone or no-one at all' way of thinking, because that's un-realistic and real life simply doesn't work like that.

Lisbeth

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Re: Policing what members of a club do in their spare time?
« Reply #16 on: October 26, 2011, 07:58:25 AM »
I think the leader is wrong to try to prevent members of the main club from forming their own club on Facebook, doing their own socializing, etc. merely because their group is not open to all members of the club.

But if the secret club-within-a-club was used to do things that actually undermine the main club, such as competing with them, back-stabbing them (so to speak if not actually), or harassing members of the main club who are not members of the secret group, I can see where that would be really problematic for the leader of the main club.  I suppose she could ask the secret members (if she knows who they are) to leave the main club, but I'm not sure.
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katycoo

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Re: Policing what members of a club do in their spare time?
« Reply #17 on: October 26, 2011, 08:00:27 AM »
To be honest, I can see where a club leader would not like this at all.  Having a super-secret group for a special 15% of the club sounds very clique-y to me, and cliques can be very corrosive to group dynamics, especially if the club is trying to foster a open, friendly atmosphere.

She is probably not going about it the right way, but I can see her wanting to get rid of it.

But it doesn't sound like that at all. From the information in the OP, the Facebook group doesn't seem to be for club activities, and is not excluding members who don't belong to it from any activities concerning the club.


IDK, "a longstanding personality within the club" creating a super secret group for "her" friends within the club, all long term members, sounds like a clique to me.

So, do you have a problem with the group, or the friendship?  Any club that requires members to all be friends equaly is just silly, and kidding themselves.

Since you're coming at the angle of someone not included in the group - clearly you aren't close friends with these people, so why do you care?  Assuming of course they are still friendly and act as they have always done in class.

Alternatively, would you prefer your social interactions to not include people you don't especially like?  I do.  I like to hang with people whose company I enjoy.  In a class environment it doesn't matter so much as socialisation isn't why I'm there.

LadyClaire

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Re: Policing what members of a club do in their spare time?
« Reply #18 on: October 26, 2011, 08:04:26 AM »
I think the leader sounds very unreasonable. If this facebook group is purely for non club related social interaction, then I see nothing wrong with it. It's only natural that people will find things in common and want to socialize outside of their usual meeting place be it work, church, school, or hobby groups. I can also see not wanting the leader in on the group, because really, it would change the dynamic..not to mention that at most martial arts clubs I've seen, the sensei is typically "above" the rest of the class. Sort of like a boss, where you don't really socialize with them unless you're another boss/sensei/higher up/etc.

I know when I took martial arts, the teachers were not supposed to socialize with the class members outside of dojo related events, but fellow class members were free to hang out whenever, wherever they wanted to.

Two Ravens

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Re: Policing what members of a club do in their spare time?
« Reply #19 on: October 26, 2011, 08:06:18 AM »
To be honest, I can see where a club leader would not like this at all.  Having a super-secret group for a special 15% of the club sounds very clique-y to me, and cliques can be very corrosive to group dynamics, especially if the club is trying to foster a open, friendly atmosphere.

She is probably not going about it the right way, but I can see her wanting to get rid of it.

But it doesn't sound like that at all. From the information in the OP, the Facebook group doesn't seem to be for club activities, and is not excluding members who don't belong to it from any activities concerning the club.


IDK, "a longstanding personality within the club" creating a super secret group for "her" friends within the club, all long term members, sounds like a clique to me.

So, do you have a problem with the group, or the friendship?  Any club that requires members to all be friends equaly is just silly, and kidding themselves.

Since you're coming at the angle of someone not included in the group - clearly you aren't close friends with these people, so why do you care?  Assuming of course they are still friendly and act as they have always done in class.

Alternatively, would you prefer your social interactions to not include people you don't especially like?  I do.  I like to hang with people whose company I enjoy.  In a class environment it doesn't matter so much as socialisation isn't why I'm there.

 ??? Wow, I don't have a problem with anything.  I'm saying it sounds like a clique, and I can see why someone wouldn't want that in their club.  I am making no statements about forcing people to interact with people they don't like.  Geez.

But, if this is just a "social group for people who are already close friends" why is it "super-secret"? (And apparently not as secret as they think... "Don't talk about this at the club" must be at least implied somewhere.

Lisbeth

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Re: Policing what members of a club do in their spare time?
« Reply #20 on: October 26, 2011, 08:11:42 AM »
To be honest, I can see where a club leader would not like this at all.  Having a super-secret group for a special 15% of the club sounds very clique-y to me, and cliques can be very corrosive to group dynamics, especially if the club is trying to foster a open, friendly atmosphere.

She is probably not going about it the right way, but I can see her wanting to get rid of it.

But it doesn't sound like that at all. From the information in the OP, the Facebook group doesn't seem to be for club activities, and is not excluding members who don't belong to it from any activities concerning the club.


IDK, "a longstanding personality within the club" creating a super secret group for "her" friends within the club, all long term members, sounds like a clique to me.

So, do you have a problem with the group, or the friendship?  Any club that requires members to all be friends equaly is just silly, and kidding themselves.

Since you're coming at the angle of someone not included in the group - clearly you aren't close friends with these people, so why do you care?  Assuming of course they are still friendly and act as they have always done in class.

Alternatively, would you prefer your social interactions to not include people you don't especially like?  I do.  I like to hang with people whose company I enjoy.  In a class environment it doesn't matter so much as socialisation isn't why I'm there.

Unless I'm mistaken (please let me know if I'm wrong), Two Ravens is expressing an aversion to what must be a "nya-nya, I'm in a secret group and you're not" attitude on the part of these people.  It could be like Greek society members, country club members, or other people choosing to be exclusive gathering together in a corner and cold-shouldering the other members of the group.  What makes that uncomfortable is that one doesn't know if one is being knifed in the back individually or even if the main group is being undermined.

Even if she wasn't close friends with these people, their choosing to do this makes it impossible to get to be a closer friend.  Finding that the path to closer friendship has been cut off can be, well, bruising. 
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TychaBrahe

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Re: Policing what members of a club do in their spare time?
« Reply #21 on: October 26, 2011, 08:18:39 AM »
IDK, "a longstanding personality within the club" creating a super secret group for "her" friends within the club, all long term members, sounds like a clique to me.

Would you say the same thing about a group that was created for graduates of X university who graduated during the same year, out of all the alumni?  Or a group of engineering students that graduated from X university?  Or the members of a sorority or fraternity at X university which was separate from all the X alumni *and* all the sorority/fraternity members who went to other colleges?

Of the students who went to my high school, the only ones I'm Facebook friends with were the ones I was with in choir.  We socialized with each other on the bus on the way to performances in a way that didn't happen with the people I took chemistry or English lit with.  We don't have a Facebook group, but if we had graduated this year instead of 25+ years ago we might have.  We had a lot of in jokes that nobody else would gets.  I posted a picture of a pattern I wanted to make that was extremely difficult.  Several crafters I know said things like, "That'll take forever," and "Pretty, but it looks sooo hard."  One choir friend said, "Not hard.....busy," and I thought I would die laughing, because that is what Dr. Carey used to say.  No one else gets that.
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Two Ravens

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Re: Policing what members of a club do in their spare time?
« Reply #22 on: October 26, 2011, 08:21:41 AM »
Unless I'm mistaken (please let me know if I'm wrong), Two Ravens is expressing an aversion to what must be a "nya-nya, I'm in a secret group and you're not" attitude on the part of these people.  It could be like Greek society members, country club members, or other people choosing to be exclusive gathering together in a corner and cold-shouldering the other members of the group.  What makes that uncomfortable is that one doesn't know if one is being knifed in the back individually or even if the main group is being undermined.

Even if she wasn't close friends with these people, their choosing to do this makes it impossible to get to be a closer friend.  Finding that the path to closer friendship has been cut off can be, well, bruising.

I do think its the "secret" part that bugs me about it.  If it was just "Erin's Jujitsu Group" for her close friends, I wouldn't blink.  But its apparently "Erin's Jujitsu group for her close friends from Club X - Don't tell anyone else from Club X, It's a secret!"


Would you say the same thing about a group that was created for graduates of X university who graduated during the same year, out of all the alumni?  Or a group of engineering students that graduated from X university?  Or the members of a sorority or fraternity at X university which was separate from all the X alumni *and* all the sorority/fraternity members who went to other colleges?

Of course not.  I don't think that's the same situation at all.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2011, 08:48:31 AM by Two Ravens »

katycoo

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Re: Policing what members of a club do in their spare time?
« Reply #23 on: October 26, 2011, 08:48:55 AM »
So, do you have a problem with the group, or the friendship?  Any club that requires members to all be friends equaly is just silly, and kidding themselves.

Since you're coming at the angle of someone not included in the group - clearly you aren't close friends with these people, so why do you care?  Assuming of course they are still friendly and act as they have always done in class.

Alternatively, would you prefer your social interactions to not include people you don't especially like?  I do.  I like to hang with people whose company I enjoy.  In a class environment it doesn't matter so much as socialisation isn't why I'm there.

 ??? Wow, I don't have a problem with anything.  I'm saying it sounds like a clique, and I can see why someone wouldn't want that in their club.  I am making no statements about forcing people to interact with people they don't like.  Geez.

But, if this is just a "social group for people who are already close friends" why is it "super-secret"? (And apparently not as secret as they think... "Don't talk about this at the club" must be at least implied somewhere.

I apologise if that sounded like I was accusing you - it was poorly phrased.  I meant if you were the sensei - would you have an issue with the group or the friendship?

And I (obviously) don't know why the group was kept secret, but I speculate it was precisely to avoid a person they didn't like so much asking to join, or to avoid the group becoming about martial arts.

Unless I'm mistaken (please let me know if I'm wrong), Two Ravens is expressing an aversion to what must be a "nya-nya, I'm in a secret group and you're not" attitude on the part of these people.  It could be like Greek society members, country club members, or other people choosing to be exclusive gathering together in a corner and cold-shouldering the other members of the group.  What makes that uncomfortable is that one doesn't know if one is being knifed in the back individually or even if the main group is being undermined.

Even if she wasn't close friends with these people, their choosing to do this makes it impossible to get to be a closer friend.  Finding that the path to closer friendship has been cut off can be, well, bruising. 

I didn't see any 'nya nya' attitude.  Perhaps that's also a reason to keep it secret - to not hurt feelings while maintaining the group they intended.

And I don't see how it cuts off friendships if the others are acting as usual during class.  The OP didn't mention them ignoring other class members or anything.

*edited cause I can't type
« Last Edit: October 26, 2011, 09:01:01 AM by kam0706 »

MommyPenguin

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Re: Policing what members of a club do in their spare time?
« Reply #24 on: October 26, 2011, 08:52:05 AM »
The "super secret" thing to me sounds like the friends are just following the etiquette rule that we are always talking about... "don't talk about something in front of others if they aren't invited."  It's only a secret because the small group is trying to keep others from feeling bad about being excluded, so they aren't talking about it in front of others who aren't part of it.  Isn't that exactly what we would say?  You wouldn't want the small group to be saying, "Oh, yeah, Jen, Kate, Amy, Bryony, and me created a Facebook group for ourselves because it was just so annoying having to private message each other every time we wanted to get together.  No, it's no big deal, not for the rest of you guys, we aren't really as close to the rest of you."  And yet sometimes a few people become friends within a larger group.  It's hard for a group of 15 people to really be close, it can just be a pretty big group.

sisbam

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Re: Policing what members of a club do in their spare time?
« Reply #25 on: October 26, 2011, 08:54:00 AM »
Why is the "secret" part disconcerting? Lots of people customize their FB activities to be available to some friends but not all.

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Re: Policing what members of a club do in their spare time?
« Reply #26 on: October 26, 2011, 08:54:46 AM »
The "super secret" thing to me sounds like the friends are just following the etiquette rule that we are always talking about... "don't talk about something in front of others if they aren't invited."  It's only a secret because the small group is trying to keep others from feeling bad about being excluded, so they aren't talking about it in front of others who aren't part of it.  Isn't that exactly what we would say?  You wouldn't want the small group to be saying, "Oh, yeah, Jen, Kate, Amy, Bryony, and me created a Facebook group for ourselves because it was just so annoying having to private message each other every time we wanted to get together.  No, it's no big deal, not for the rest of you guys, we aren't really as close to the rest of you."  And yet sometimes a few people become friends within a larger group.  It's hard for a group of 15 people to really be close, it can just be a pretty big group.

I agree. I think it largely depends on the purpose of the group. If the group is there to be a platform for their friendship, I see no harm.

I think the sensei is out of order trying to control what people do outside of the martial arts school. Especially as these people are only interested in friendship, and there activities have nothing to do with the school itself as I understand it from the OP.
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Lisbeth

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Re: Policing what members of a club do in their spare time?
« Reply #27 on: October 26, 2011, 08:57:13 AM »
Well, they're not keeping the existence of the subgroup secret-they let it be known in the main group that the subgroup exists.  I think that if they had wanted not to hurt feelings, they would have done more to keep it secret.  Even if nobody in this secret group said anything to the effect of "nya-nya," it can come off as "nya-nya" when members of such a group allow the existence of such a group to become known.  And by letting it known that so-and-so in the main group didn't make the cut to be in this secret group, that can throw up a roadblock to future friendship.

Subgroups within larger groups are in and of themselves fine.  But I think the polite way to truly stay "secret" is to not let it be known that they exist if secret existence is what they want.
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FoxPaws

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Re: Policing what members of a club do in their spare time?
« Reply #28 on: October 26, 2011, 08:57:44 AM »
Would it seem as cliquey if the word "private" were used instead of the word "secret"?
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Yvaine

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Re: Policing what members of a club do in their spare time?
« Reply #29 on: October 26, 2011, 09:01:05 AM »
Well, they're not keeping the existence of the subgroup secret-they let it be known in the main group that the subgroup exists. 

They didn't--the OP states that the sensei had to do a lot of snooping to find it at all.