Policing what members of a club do in their spare time?

[Visiting Crazy Town]

*Was the Sensi wrong to ban members of the club for forming a subgroup?

Wholeheartedly, yes. As we all know, one cannot control what one wishes to do outside another person's presence.

I think in this case, the answer is yes, but I don't think you can say this is universally true.  What if the group leader found out members of a subgroup were mocking newer members?  Would it still be out of line?

I think that it is common sometimes to discuss people that you know and if they were having a private discussion then i do not have a problem with it at all because if no one discussed people they knew then there would be no reason for  Ehell most of us post about our family, friend , coworker and how to deal with them  it is not "mock" them at all

[wyliefool]

Sorry- should have mentioned. One of the ladies from the club left her phone in the dojo after class. The Sensei took it home with her in order to return it to the group member. Its an iPhone, and messages that xyz had replied to her post were popping up. The Sensei tried a couple of pins (note to iPhone owners 2512 is not as secure as you all seem to think!) and got on the group.

Oh, and the group is not that "secret" in a nasty way- it's just how it is set on Facebook. The other rule they have is not to talk about it in front of other people.

Wow.  I already thought Sensei was way out of line, and this just pushes her over into creepy-stalker-territory as far as I'm concerned.  When people's phones now contain so much of their private life, the only way I might ever consider looking into someone's phone would be if I didn't know whose it was (i.e., found it on the street) and had no good way to find out (like, say, asking a small group that meets regularly which one of them it belonged to?)  I definitely would never try to break into a phone that the owner had locked to keep private!

Big POD. The sensei is creepy and out of line.

True words. If I were the snoopee (I'm an editor, I can make up words!) I'd be like "You can't kick me out, I quit!" and I'd also be making sure I tell the story to anyone who would stand still long enuf about how sensei X of discipline Y hacked into my phone. If there's a Yelp type of site for martial arts schools, or even just general businesses that might include such schools, I'd be posting.

If the student had left her purse would the sensei (she really doesn't deserve this title, imo--her behavior is way too unethical) have looked thru her wallet? Opened her bank statement that was inside?? There's very little difference, imo.

Srsly, no one should need to be told that when you find a phone belonging to someone you know, you call them to tell them you have it and then you put it aside until they come to get it. You don't hack the password!!!?!?!?!!!!!

Heck, last year I found an iPhone in the parking lot at work. I said 'Oh look, an iPhone in the rain. That can't be good.' I took it inside and gave it to the front desk lady. I didn't hack into the thing. Sheez. (I assume someone may have looked at it to see whose it was. Or if they were smart, they sent an email saying 'if you lost a phone, call it' and then took it to whoever made it ring.)

[Ehelldame]

One member, a longstanding personality within the club, created a invite-only, very secret, Facebook group for a few close friends that she'd made through the club (maybe 15% of the club?). No other club members know about the group, and they don't mention it to other people. The leader was not Invited to be in the group, because they didn't want her to feel obligated to make the group official- it's just a load of friends with one common hobby, and really very benign.

When the club Sensei found out about the group (through some fairly dedicated snooping), she lost it and started asking various people for information.

You have a hole in your story.  If the group is super secret, no one else knows of it and they aren't telling anyone else, how would the sensei know of its existence? 

Perhaps the loyalty of the super secret group isn't as strong as its members would like to believe it is.    And what would compel individuals to question their own loyalty and abandon their oath of super secrecy to their private, super secret group to alert the sensei to a problem?   Did they have a hazing ritual for potential members that some found offensive and similar to junior high immaturity?  Or perhaps some members got far too catty and ugly about the other members of the club who were excluded or kicked out of the super secret group which left a sour taste in the more sensible members?  The latter would create a terrible dilemma for some people who perhaps joined thinking it was just another fun offshoot of the original club but found they were caught up in a hateful pack mentality which, if they said anything, exposed them to ridicule or banishment.  Did the behavior of the super secret group spill over into the main club in any way?   

Why would the sensei asking a few questions to verify that the stories are indeed accurate be considered a bad thing? If the super secret group has done nothing to wrong others in the main club, why does the sensei's attempt to get to the truth distress them?  I'd think they would want to exonerate themselves and make sure sensei knew they had been maligned with a false report by disgruntled "friends" out to make trouble for them. 

The sensei has the right to protect his/her own club or business from both outside and inside interests that affect the cohesion of the team.  If there is no contractual agreement or exchange of money for services, I don't see where the sensei is obligated to keep any person on a team whose activities outside the club have a negative impact on the operation of the club she created and manages. 

And it's simply folly to believe that what one does in spare time will have absolutely no effect on other areas of life.  What you do in your spare time can most definitely affect your career, for example.   News articles abound warning that employers do google prospective employees to see how they behave online and there are stories aplenty of people losing jobs because of a lack of discretion in what they publish online.  Pole dance at night and you'll probably lose your job as an elementary school teacher.  Write pron on the side and you won't be welcome here at all no matter how polite you appear. 
 

[Yvaine]

One member, a longstanding personality within the club, created a invite-only, very secret, Facebook group for a few close friends that she'd made through the club (maybe 15% of the club?). No other club members know about the group, and they don't mention it to other people. The leader was not Invited to be in the group, because they didn't want her to feel obligated to make the group official- it's just a load of friends with one common hobby, and really very benign.

When the club Sensei found out about the group (through some fairly dedicated snooping), she lost it and started asking various people for information.

You have a hole in your story.  If the group is super secret, no one else knows of it and they aren't telling anyone else, how would the sensei know of its existence? 

There was an update actually--one of the members of the secret group left her phone behind and the sensei guessed the password and hacked in. No one found out through legitimate channels.

And off topic but germane to your last sentence, I had understood the rule to be that no one could be an ehellion if they wrote kiddie pron, not that we could be kicked out for having ever written any erotic material at all. This concerns me and I would appreciate a clarification.

[Skoffin]

No one spilled the beans, the Sensei hacked someone's phone.

No details are given on what sort of 'information' the members were hounded for, but based on the Sensei's other dodgy behaviour I will wager a guess that they were demanding to know who else was in the club, where they meet and so forth. You do not need to be guilty in order to feel uncomfortable with being harangued.

[Hushabye]

Nanny Ogg updated back about two pages about how the sensei found out: S/he went snooping through a member's private information and found out about it.  Which makes the sensei so unbelievably unethical and out of line as to be indefensible.

There is also a MASSIVE difference between online behavior affecting one's job and online behavior affecting one's social activities.  Although my boss demanding I leave an online group of work friends because we socialize outside the office regarding non-work-related topics would be just as over-the-line as the sensei is here.

Also, you would ban members for writing erotic fiction, with no connection to this board whatsoever?  What about reading it?  What other online activities with no connection to etiquette are you going to ban people for?

[T'Mar of Vulcan]

Also, you would ban members for writing erotic fiction, with no connection to this board whatsoever?  What about reading it?  What other online activities with no connection to etiquette are you going to ban people for?

I'll come right out (no pun intended) and say that I read (and have written) slash fan fiction. Which I suppose some people could consider p0rn0gra[hic. I am actually sitting here completely flabbergasted that someone would want to take something I do in my spare time, with no connection to e-hell or any e-hell members and say I am not welcome because of it.

I'm shocked. That's really so far over the line no one can even see the line anymore.

Wow.

[Yvaine]

Also, you would ban members for writing erotic fiction, with no connection to this board whatsoever?  What about reading it?  What other online activities with no connection to etiquette are you going to ban people for?

I'll come right out (no pun intended) and say that I read (and have written) slash fan fiction. Which I suppose some people could consider p0rn0gra[hic. I am actually sitting here completely flabbergasted that someone would want to take something I do in my spare time, with no connection to e-hell or any e-hell members and say I am not welcome because of it.

I'm shocked. That's really so far over the line no one can even see the line anymore.

Wow.

I have written similar, as well as some original erotic fiction and some "regular" fiction that had sex scenes in it. If I'm not welcome, I guess I'm not welcome. It's been a nice three years.

[still in va]

Nanny Ogg updated back about two pages about how the sensei found out: S/he went snooping through a member's private information and found out about it.  Which makes the sensei so unbelievably unethical and out of line as to be indefensible.

There is also a MASSIVE difference between online behavior affecting one's job and online behavior affecting one's social activities.  Although my boss demanding I leave an online group of work friends because we socialize outside the office regarding non-work-related topics would be just as over-the-line as the sensei is here.

Also, you would ban members for writing erotic fiction, with no connection to this board whatsoever? What about reading it?  What other online activities with no connection to etiquette are you going to ban people for?

unless an e-hellion were to post a link to their erotic fiction website here, or discussed said fiction in one of the writing topics here, how would a mod know a poster was writing same elsewhere on the internet?  especially if they don't use their username here, or if they don't make any reference to E-Hell.

[WillyNilly]

Nanny Ogg updated back about two pages about how the sensei found out: S/he went snooping through a member's private information and found out about it.  Which makes the sensei so unbelievably unethical and out of line as to be indefensible.

There is also a MASSIVE difference between online behavior affecting one's job and online behavior affecting one's social activities.  Although my boss demanding I leave an online group of work friends because we socialize outside the office regarding non-work-related topics would be just as over-the-line as the sensei is here.

Also, you would ban members for writing erotic fiction, with no connection to this board whatsoever? What about reading it?  What other online activities with no connection to etiquette are you going to ban people for?

unless an e-hellion were to post a link to their erotic fiction website here, or discussed said fiction in one of the writing topics here, how would a mod know a poster was writing same elsewhere on the internet?  especially if they don't use their username here, or if they don't make any reference to E-Hell.

Well I guess we could leave our iPhone at the Dame's home and have it hacked...

Kidding!!!!   I know the Dame would not do that.

[Hushabye]

Nanny Ogg updated back about two pages about how the sensei found out: S/he went snooping through a member's private information and found out about it.  Which makes the sensei so unbelievably unethical and out of line as to be indefensible.

There is also a MASSIVE difference between online behavior affecting one's job and online behavior affecting one's social activities.  Although my boss demanding I leave an online group of work friends because we socialize outside the office regarding non-work-related topics would be just as over-the-line as the sensei is here.

Also, you would ban members for writing erotic fiction, with no connection to this board whatsoever? What about reading it?  What other online activities with no connection to etiquette are you going to ban people for?

unless an e-hellion were to post a link to their erotic fiction website here, or discussed said fiction in one of the writing topics here, how would a mod know a poster was writing same elsewhere on the internet?  especially if they don't use their username here, or if they don't make any reference to E-Hell.

I can only go by what the Dame herself has posted, which was "Write pron on the side and you won't be welcome here at all no matter how polite you appear."

[Nanny Ogg]

One member, a longstanding personality within the club, created a invite-only, very secret, Facebook group for a few close friends that she'd made through the club (maybe 15% of the club?). No other club members know about the group, and they don't mention it to other people. The leader was not Invited to be in the group, because they didn't want her to feel obligated to make the group official- it's just a load of friends with one common hobby, and really very benign.

When the club Sensei found out about the group (through some fairly dedicated snooping), she lost it and started asking various people for information.

You have a hole in your story.  If the group is super secret, no one else knows of it and they aren't telling anyone else, how would the sensei know of its existence?  My apologies, I cleared that omission up earlier. I think it is fair to say that the senseis means of discovering any information was fairly underhanded
 
Perhaps the loyalty of the super secret group isn't as strong as its members would like to believe it is.    And what would compel individuals to question their own loyalty and abandon their oath of super secrecy to their private, super secret group to alert the sensei to a problem?   I'm not sure what you are talking aboutDid they have a hazing ritual for potential members that some found offensive and similar to junior high immaturity? Again, I'm not sure what you are on about Or perhaps some members got far too catty and ugly about the other members of the club who were excluded or kicked out of the super secret group which left a sour taste in the more sensible members?  Of course, there are always personality clashes in groups. I believe that "no flouncing" was one of the rules...The latter would create a terrible dilemma for some people who perhaps joined thinking it was just another fun offshoot of the original club but found they were caught up in a hateful pack mentality which, if they said anything, exposed them to ridicule or banishment.  Did the behavior of the super secret group spill over into the main club in any way?No more than it may have formalised thoughts that a lot of the members were already having   

Why would the sensei asking a few questions to verify that the stories are indeed accurate be considered a bad thing?Because it's none of her business what the club members do online. The USA/UK are not under totalitarian governments, and we both have freedom of speech. If the super secret group has done nothing to wrong others in the main club, why does the sensei's attempt to get to the truth distress them? Because they didn't want her in the club I'd think they would want to exonerate themselves and make sure sensei knew they had been maligned with a false report by disgruntled "friends" out to make trouble for them. 

The sensei has the right to protect his/her own club or business from both outside and inside interests that affect the cohesion of the team.  If there is no contractual agreement or exchange of money for services, I don't see where the sensei is obligated to keep any person on a team whose activities outside the club have a negative impact on the operation of the club she created and manages.  You're absolutely right, and I imagine the sensei will be utilising that right very shortly

And it's simply folly to believe that what one does in spare time will have absolutely no effect on other areas of life.  What you do in your spare time can most definitely affect your career, for example.   News articles abound warning that employers do google prospective employees to see how they behave online and there are stories aplenty of people losing jobs because of a lack of discretion in what they publish online.  Pole dance at night and you'll probably lose your job as an elementary school teacher.  Write pron on the side and you won't be welcome here at all no matter how polite you appear. The first examples are total straw man arguments and you know it. A social club and Facebook are wildly different things to employment and lack of discretion. The final one is a reiteration of the senseis disappointing behaviour when it comes to running her show. Again, I'd describe it as pissing in ones own sandbox. It might be your sandbox, you might make the rules, but do it long enough and no one is going to want to play in it.

[Trisha]

You have a hole in your story.  If the group is super secret, no one else knows of it and they aren't telling anyone else, how would the sensei know of its existence? 

Perhaps the loyalty of the super secret group isn't as strong as its members would like to believe it is.    And what would compel individuals to question their own loyalty and abandon their oath of super secrecy to their private, super secret group to alert the sensei to a problem?   Did they have a hazing ritual for potential members that some found offensive and similar to junior high immaturity?  Or perhaps some members got far too catty and ugly about the other members of the club who were excluded or kicked out of the super secret group which left a sour taste in the more sensible members?  The latter would create a terrible dilemma for some people who perhaps joined thinking it was just another fun offshoot of the original club but found they were caught up in a hateful pack mentality which, if they said anything, exposed them to ridicule or banishment.  Did the behavior of the super secret group spill over into the main club in any way?   

Why would the sensei asking a few questions to verify that the stories are indeed accurate be considered a bad thing? If the super secret group has done nothing to wrong others in the main club, why does the sensei's attempt to get to the truth distress them?  I'd think they would want to exonerate themselves and make sure sensei knew they had been maligned with a false report by disgruntled "friends" out to make trouble for them. 

The sensei has the right to protect his/her own club or business from both outside and inside interests that affect the cohesion of the team.  If there is no contractual agreement or exchange of money for services, I don't see where the sensei is obligated to keep any person on a team whose activities outside the club have a negative impact on the operation of the club she created and manages. 

And it's simply folly to believe that what one does in spare time will have absolutely no effect on other areas of life.  What you do in your spare time can most definitely affect your career, for example.   News articles abound warning that employers do google prospective employees to see how they behave online and there are stories aplenty of people losing jobs because of a lack of discretion in what they publish online.  Pole dance at night and you'll probably lose your job as an elementary school teacher.  Write pron on the side and you won't be welcome here at all no matter how polite you appear. 
 

So, you're telling me that if I make my living making porn that I wouldn't be welcome here? That's none of your business and only illustrates why I have stopped posting. An internet forum is that. An INTERNET forum. It's not a job for members. It's not some jewel to be awarded only to those you find worthy. If you don't like that, you're in the wrong line of work. I have 2 webforums of my own, one is specifically for professionals. Do I go in and read their profiles and backgrounds to make sure none of them do something I don't agree with in my spare time? No. That would be insane and hugely inappropriate.  I am HUGELY disappointed to see such a response from the owner of this site, much less someone who prides them self on being well versed in etiquette.


All of this has nothing to do with group loyalty. It's about a nosy leader who can't take anyone wanting to be friends with a group of people without having to go through the instructor to talk with those friends. It's about not wanting their personal messages between those friends read/over heard, and about not having to censor one's self because who knows what that instructor will decide is inappropriate from one day to the next. A group of friends, regardless of where they met and how can and do moderate themselves on their own. Presumably everyone involved are adults. How many threads have been here about how you should cut out toxic people in your life? How is having a group of friends where they come and go any different? Not to mention they're not affiliated with said group. Hell, there are more than likely people involved in that group that aren't even members of the original karate school.

Absolute power corrupts absolutely. That's not a "old saying" because it has no truth to it. I have left a group because of a leader and their "managers" not being able to be consistent and fair in their interactions with the group. In doing so, I lost track with a lot of the friends I made because they were solely from online interactions. In the day and age of facebook, you no longer have to worry about that. However, now people who are in charge of one activity are now trying to tell their MEMBERS (not employees) how they can spend their spare time and how interaction between other members should go? I don't think so.

I'd say that the environment the Sensei is breeding is toxic and I wouldn't take it. OP, if I were in your shoes, I'd leave and never look back. Along with all your buddies that decided they wanted to get together for what amounts to a cup of coffee online.

[Ms_Cellany]

Bumping for updates

[still in va]

Nanny Ogg updated back about two pages about how the sensei found out: S/he went snooping through a member's private information and found out about it.  Which makes the sensei so unbelievably unethical and out of line as to be indefensible.

There is also a MASSIVE difference between online behavior affecting one's job and online behavior affecting one's social activities.  Although my boss demanding I leave an online group of work friends because we socialize outside the office regarding non-work-related topics would be just as over-the-line as the sensei is here.

Also, you would ban members for writing erotic fiction, with no connection to this board whatsoever? What about reading it?  What other online activities with no connection to etiquette are you going to ban people for?

unless an e-hellion were to post a link to their erotic fiction website here, or discussed said fiction in one of the writing topics here, how would a mod know a poster was writing same elsewhere on the internet?  especially if they don't use their username here, or if they don't make any reference to E-Hell.

I can only go by what the Dame herself has posted, which was "Write pron on the side and you won't be welcome here at all no matter how polite you appear."

yes, i read and understood the point the Dame made, thanks.  my question was, how would the mods here know if a poster was doing that?