Policing what members of a club do in their spare time?

[wyozozo]

Write pron on the side and you won't be welcome here at all no matter how polite you appear.

I was sorry to read this. I thought we said this was an etiquette board, not an ethics and morals board...guess I was mistaken.

[Ehelldame]

And off topic but germane to your last sentence, I had understood the rule to be that no one could be an ehellion if they wrote kiddie pron, not that we could be kicked out for having ever written any erotic material at all. This concerns me and I would appreciate a clarification.

The only way anyone knows of pron fan fiction is because someone somehow, someway brought it into the forum.  For example, I banned a child porn writer after he invited members to come read his stuff and posted a link.  Another person was banned after claiming to have been raped and it was discovered she wrote rape fiction.  Yet a third person was banned when her adult fan fiction did not get very good reviews, she took issue with her critics and they followed her right into Ehell, practically at her invitation, creating all kinds of drama. 

Don't bring trouble to the forum.

[Hushabye]

And off topic but germane to your last sentence, I had understood the rule to be that no one could be an ehellion if they wrote kiddie pron, not that we could be kicked out for having ever written any erotic material at all. This concerns me and I would appreciate a clarification.

The only way anyone knows of pron fan fiction is because someone somehow, someway brought it into the forum.  For example, I banned a child porn writer after he invited members to come read his stuff and posted a link.  Another person was banned after claiming to have been raped and it was discovered she wrote rape fiction.  Yet a third person was banned when her adult fan fiction did not get very good reviews, she took issue with her critics and they followed her right into Ehell, practically at her invitation, creating all kinds of drama. 

Don't bring trouble to the forum.

But that has absolutely nothing to do with what you said.  You said specifically, "Write pron on the side and you won't be welcome here at all no matter how polite you appear."  That says nothing about bringing trouble to the forum; it's a direct condemnation of erotic fiction/pron.

[Yvaine]

Nanny Ogg updated back about two pages about how the sensei found out: S/he went snooping through a member's private information and found out about it.  Which makes the sensei so unbelievably unethical and out of line as to be indefensible.

There is also a MASSIVE difference between online behavior affecting one's job and online behavior affecting one's social activities.  Although my boss demanding I leave an online group of work friends because we socialize outside the office regarding non-work-related topics would be just as over-the-line as the sensei is here.

Also, you would ban members for writing erotic fiction, with no connection to this board whatsoever? What about reading it?  What other online activities with no connection to etiquette are you going to ban people for?

unless an e-hellion were to post a link to their erotic fiction website here, or discussed said fiction in one of the writing topics here, how would a mod know a poster was writing same elsewhere on the internet?  especially if they don't use their username here, or if they don't make any reference to E-Hell.

I can only go by what the Dame herself has posted, which was "Write pron on the side and you won't be welcome here at all no matter how polite you appear."

yes, i read and understood the point the Dame made, thanks.  my question was, how would the mods here know if a poster was doing that?

They wouldn't, necessarily--but it could make a difference in how welcome a poster felt on the forum. Kind of like, if you come over to my house and I say "I can't stand people who do xyz," and xyz is a legal, consensual activity you engage in, you won't feel welcome in my home. Even if I have no idea that you personally do xyz.

[The Opinionator]

And off topic but germane to your last sentence, I had understood the rule to be that no one could be an ehellion if they wrote kiddie pron, not that we could be kicked out for having ever written any erotic material at all. This concerns me and I would appreciate a clarification.

The only way anyone knows of pron fan fiction is because someone somehow, someway brought it into the forum.  For example, I banned a child porn writer after he invited members to come read his stuff and posted a link.  Another person was banned after claiming to have been raped and it was discovered she wrote rape fiction.  Yet a third person was banned when her adult fan fiction did not get very good reviews, she took issue with her critics and they followed her right into Ehell, practically at her invitation, creating all kinds of drama. 

Don't bring trouble to the forum.

I must have been very subtle when linking my fanfiction which contains a M rather story in my signature then.

I don't see the connection between writing rape fanfiction and claiming to have been raped. I would hope the person was banned for lying/trolling, instead of what she wrote in her spare time.

[TychaBrahe]

The only way anyone knows of pron fan fiction is because someone somehow, someway brought it into the forum.  For example, I banned a child porn writer after he invited members to come read his stuff and posted a link.  Another person was banned after claiming to have been raped and it was discovered she wrote rape fiction. Yet a third person was banned when her adult fan fiction did not get very good reviews, she took issue with her critics and they followed her right into Ehell, practically at her invitation, creating all kinds of drama. 

Don't bring trouble to the forum.

Wait a minute.  That person was trolling on EHell, writing fictional stories in order to garner sympathy from the other members.  It was discovered that she wrote rape fiction because some people, suspicious of her tales, went looking for her on the Internet.  She didn't "bring trouble" here.  She created trouble here, and the existence of her rape fiction was used to prove that she was trolling.

Are you saying that had she been outed as a sympathy-pig, manipulating other members for her own amusement and causing some people real emotional pain for kicks and giggles, but without the rape fiction, she might have been allowed to remain? 

[Ondine]

I have always considered etiquettehell a fun place to be, just as I would watch old tv shows on youtube purely for entertainment.

If I had been aware that what I do in my spare time were to be scrutinized, I would not have joined. I am an adult, and what I do in my spare time is purely my business.  I don't consider this a job, where I have to appear polished and hold myself to a higher standard than most.

Since there seems to be concern about what people do outside the forum, in their spare time, I feel this would be a great time to say it's been a good four years, I've met a lot of good people, but I want to live my life the way I am, without a judging eye.

[goblue2539]

Heck, I don't write anything like that, and I read boring old Regency romances.  Yet, I still feel a lot less welcome in just the last few minutes. 

I find it sad that in the last two threads I read I feel that we've been told that we have no business having any interest in how other people's lives and interactions work (specifically that we're not to ask how a law from a wife affects a husband's job prospects), yet we're also not supposed to (apparently) interact with anyone outside of this site. 

If I go to my friend's house for dinner, am I in trouble because we originally met through ehell?  Or is it just if we discuss a thread or a poster between us that we're breaking the rules?  In my admittedly limited experience, when people meet they talk about common topics.  When people meet from ehell, a common topic is how do we feel about certain threads or posters.  I'd imagine in the OP, a common topic would be how they felt about a particular teacher or student.  I would never have taken that to mean that the smaller group was being mean, nasty, or rude about the new students.  Just exchanging opinions. 

The fact that the Sensei found out about the group by reading private messages definitely weakens his or her position.  And if the Sensei actually did have someone complain to him or her about the group, he or she should have been honest when looking for information.

[RandomAngel]

And off topic but germane to your last sentence, I had understood the rule to be that no one could be an ehellion if they wrote kiddie pron, not that we could be kicked out for having ever written any erotic material at all. This concerns me and I would appreciate a clarification.

The only way anyone knows of pron fan fiction is because someone somehow, someway brought it into the forum.  For example, I banned a child porn writer after he invited members to come read his stuff and posted a link.  Another person was banned after claiming to have been raped and it was discovered she wrote rape fiction.  Yet a third person was banned when her adult fan fiction did not get very good reviews, she took issue with her critics and they followed her right into Ehell, practically at her invitation, creating all kinds of drama. 

Don't bring trouble to the forum.

Respectfully, I don't see how any of those examples apply to this scenario. In this case, it would be more like:

An EHell mod gets bored one day and starts reading the PMs in my inbox. They see something that makes them think I might make a hobby of writing pron (in point of fact I write romance novels for a living; I hope that's okay). They look up the email address I used to open this account and use the other personal information here to start guessing my email password. They happen to get it right, confirm that I write pron and...you ban me?

That has not been my experience of this community so far, and I sincerely hope that that isn't going to change any time soon.

[shhh its me]

  I hope Dame misspoke, the way I'm currently reading it....

 IF I said " I work in a controversial industry, porn if you need to know,  how do I politely deflect questions about my work during family Christams dinners?' That I would not be welcome NOTE: in this hypothetical the conditions are without exposing my pen name , linking , my Email is not pornwritter dot com or in any other way connecting Ehell to my fans ect.

I don't write porn but if that's how you feel why not just put in in the rules along with any others restrictions , it's your house your rules so to speak.

[tnpenguinbaby]

Most of this post is a quote of EHellDame's post.  My points are in bold and italics

You have a hole in your story.  If the group is super secret, no one else knows of it and they aren't telling anyone else, how would the sensei know of its existence?  Because, as the old saying goes, a secret can only be a secret as long as it's known to only 2 people and 1 of them is dead!

Perhaps the loyalty of the super secret group isn't as strong as its members would like to believe it is.    And what would compel individuals to question their own loyalty and abandon their oath of super secrecy to their private, super secret group to alert the sensei to a problem?   Did they have a hazing ritual for potential members that some found offensive and similar to junior high immaturity?  Or perhaps some members got far too catty and ugly about the other members of the club who were excluded or kicked out of the super secret group which left a sour taste in the more sensible members?  The latter would create a terrible dilemma for some people who perhaps joined thinking it was just another fun offshoot of the original club but found they were caught up in a hateful pack mentality which, if they said anything, exposed them to ridicule or banishment.  Did the behavior of the super secret group spill over into the main club in any way? Again, as I said in an earlier post, there is 1 in every group - the one who, if they don't get enough attention or the right attention, pouts/whines and creates unnecessary drama.   

Why would the sensei asking a few questions to verify that the stories are indeed accurate be considered a bad thing? Because it's none of his business.  He is not their boss, their parents or their marital partner.  He merely runs a business which provides an activity they partake in.  What they do outside of the hour or two they spend with him is absolutely none of his concern.If the super secret group has done nothing to wrong others in the main club, why does the sensei's attempt to get to the truth distress them?  A sensei is someone revered for their knowledge, trusted for their restraint and honored for their code of ethics.  I would imagine his students are shocked and appalled at his behavior. True aficionados of the martial arts practice them for the inner peace and strength it gives, not just so they can learn to kick a bacon fed knave where it hurts.I'd think they would want to exonerate themselves and make sure sensei knew they had been maligned with a false report by disgruntled "friends" out to make trouble for them.  What exactly is there for them to exonerate themselves from?  That they made new friends?  That they want to talk about something they are all interested in *other* than martial arts?

The sensei has the right to protect his/her own club or business from both outside and inside interests that affect the cohesion of the team.  If there is no contractual agreement or exchange of money for services, I don't see where the sensei is obligated to keep any person on a team whose activities outside the club have a negative impact on the operation of the club she created and manages.  The sensei doesn't seem to understand he is in the business of providing martial arts education and nothing else.  There is no *team*.  It's just a large group of students who take martial arts training from him.

And it's simply folly to believe that what one does in spare time will have absolutely no effect on other areas of life.  What you do in your spare time can most definitely affect your career, for example.   News articles abound warning that employers do google prospective employees to see how they behave online and there are stories aplenty of people losing jobs because of a lack of discretion in what they publish online.  Pole dance at night and you'll probably lose your job as an elementary school teacher.  Write pron on the side and you won't be welcome here at all no matter how polite you appear. A social activity such as martial arts training is in no way similar to work life.  What I do in my spare time can, in some ways, impact my working life, that is true.  What I do in my spare time has no impact on what *other things* I do in my spare time. 

I find your remark about pron and not being welcome on this site deeply disturbing.  Are you saying I can't be interested in etiquette and express other facets of my personality elsewhere?  This is a public forum; there is no checklist of attributes (at least there wasn't when I joined) that I had to meet before I could join.  I only had to be able to read that little capcha thing and prove I was human.  The only thing that should affect my inclusion *here* is my behavior *here*, not elsewhere.   
[/quote]

[BettyP]

I have a piece of erotica (I believe there is a huge difference between such and pron, but I know not everyone else agrees) published. I am proud of it. It pushed me into finishing my non-erotic novel because of the confidence I gained. I guess it is time to bow out of the forums because it is not the welcoming place I once thought it was.

[Miss Vertigo]

That's quite an update, OP, about the snooping on the phone.

I am not a martial artist, neither do I play one on TV, but were I a member of this club, I might be organising a meeting of members to come before the sensei and ask her to explain how exactly she plans to defend what appears to be the utterly indefensible.

I have a feeling that in this case the problem may solve itself, since I doubt the club will have many members left after long anyway; those who weren't turned away would in all likelihood leave in their droves, including, I suspect, those who weren't a part of the Facebook group to begin with. Because doesn't a sensei hold themselves up to be some kind of symbol of moral correctness? How could the members respect that in good faith or ever take her word seriously again after her actions?

[PeasNCues]

So, if you write/publish erotica, you can't possible be interested in etiquette, right? Because you are so moral corrupt, you just go around not caring what other people think and doing what you want?

- PeasNCues, who has written and posted erotica elsewhere, although that may shock some members here!

[ginlyn32]

What if the sky was green? What if the grass was blue? Let us not get bogged down in the 'What If's'. What the club needs to be concerned with is their leader is flaunting her power where she has none. What the members of the club do during their own, private time is none of the leaders business. Period.

Some might say that the leader has cause for concern because the subgroup might say something to disparage her organization. Even so, this is a free country and the leader has no right to dictate what the members do on their own time.

As Nanny Ogg posted, the leader does have the right to kick any member out for any reason. It's her club she can do as s/he wishes. But pretty soon, the leader will have no one to lead.

I also find the comment about writing porn to be disturbing. So what is the next "inappropriate" activitiy that could get me banned from here if I choose to explore it while away from ehell?

edited for grammer.