Author Topic: Ex member  (Read 81097 times)

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Wordgeek

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Re: Ex member
« Reply #360 on: October 28, 2011, 05:49:07 AM »
Let me dispel one more misconception about this oh, so secret group - it was linked on ehell in its early days. It was never created to bash anyone. I'm coming up as a member. I have nothing to be ashamed of. Sometimes we got frustrated with seeing the same behaviour over and over again from some posters and we talked about it. Not unlike how we talk about people's behaviour in the SS thread. "bashing" an action and bashing a poster are two different things.

I'm happy to try and clarify and shed some more light on the issue from my perspective. However, I won't have a computer until Sunday evening and posting from my phone is annoying. If I don't get banned for coming forwards and this thread is still here, I will return to it then..

Excellent!  Open the group to public view and let people make their own judgments.

The Opinionator

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Re: Ex member
« Reply #361 on: October 28, 2011, 05:54:15 AM »
Gahr, it was not created to bash anyone. We have always been encouraged to create friendships off board. The group was that. Someone started a fb thread and someone else created a group so we could have a place where we all were and we could chat.

Wordgeek, I'm sorry, but that is not my call to make. While I'm not un any way opposed to the group being opened, there are plenty of people who don't want their personal info out there for everyone to see, especially since some medical issues have been discussed.
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

DuBois

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Re: Ex member
« Reply #362 on: October 28, 2011, 06:01:37 AM »
Gahr, it was not created to bash anyone. We have always been encouraged to create friendships off board. The group was that. Someone started a fb thread and someone else created a group so we could have a place where we all were and we could chat.

Wordgeek, I'm sorry, but that is not my call to make. While I'm not un any way opposed to the group being opened, there are plenty of people who don't want their personal info out there for everyone to see, especially since some medical issues have been discussed.

It may well have been created with innocent intent, but the PM that Scuba_Dog shared shows that it had developed beyond that. That is not to say that everyone in the group was bad, but it does suggest that some had toxic and nefarious intent.

Amava

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Re: Ex member
« Reply #363 on: October 28, 2011, 06:28:59 AM »
I would love to give the group the benefit of the doubt, because there seem to be some people part of it whose posts I really liked.

But, apologies, when I see something like this:

Quote
Quote from: Wry Exchange on October 05, 2011, 06:50:09 PM
Hi, I heard you were asking about a chat group or friends group?  Can you tell me a bit about yourself, and the ehell names of 3 or 4 posters you agree with, and 3 or 4 posters you disagree with , a few that you think they're not too stable, and a few you admire.
Regards,
Vicki.

Quote from: Wry Exchange on October 05, 2011, 08:01:16 PM
Well, You have over 3,000 posts.   No one stands out that you agree with, or that you shake your head at?  There is a group, but it's not an etiquette group at all.   We'd just like to get a sense of who you are, and if you'd fit in.
that really raises questions.
I just can't imagine how in the world it would be okay to ask questions like that to someone in order to see whether they'd "fit in".

I'm also quite annoyed by the "sensei" thread, where a very skewed interpretation of the facts was given, just to trick people into agreeing that the sensei was "abusing her power", "overbearing", "bonkers", etc. It was looking for validation, without telling the whole truth. Especially when there was talk of the sensei "hacking into someone's phone". Nobody hacked anything. The mods/admin reacted to things that were *reported* to them.
**Edited to add: Not to mention how disrespectful it was to make that thread here on the forum. If a guest in my house delighted the others with a thinly veiled cautionary tale of "how awful they had been treated by me", they would certainly not be invited back.  End edit **


And I strongly stand behind the opinion that a website is not like a country or a public property where democracy must rule. In my opinion, a forum is like someone's house. We are the guests. E-Hell Dame is the owner of the house.

Inspired by the sensei thread, I could write up a story that would go something like:

"Hello E-hellions,
For a long time, I have regularly been holding open house for a large group of people. Lately, some of these people have been meeting up in different places - which, in itself, is none of my business. However, some people I trust have been telling me that in these seperate group meetings, more and more badmouthing has been going on, about me and about others of my guests and their behaviour at our gatherings. Would it be okay for me to not invite the badmouthers back to my house, for the sake of my other guests?"

Look, I totally agree that what people do in their private life is nobody else's business - until they *make* it someone else's business by harming others.
I am a teacher and I basically have no business with what children do in their spare time, which some of them spend together. But in cases where I get a suspicion that children use their "private meetings" to make plans to bully others in my class or in the school, it becomes my business, and I act upon it. Not by throwing them out of the school, of course, even if that was in my power I wouldn't do it, but by educating them - sternly - about the consequences of bullying. That's my job. It is however not E-Hell Dame's job to educate people about bullying. And nobody here is a child who doesn't know any better.

What I'm trying to say is that it is indeed none of E-Hell Dame's business what we do in our spare time until we *make* it her business by influencing her community in a negative way.  And sorry but talking behind other members' back IS influencing the community in a bad way, whether the group was created for that purpose or not. There is no such thing as benign gossiping. None.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2011, 06:38:41 AM by Amava »

StarFaerie

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Re: Ex member
« Reply #364 on: October 28, 2011, 06:59:12 AM »
I will, in the interest of clarification, say that Rainhadotexugo did contact me to clarify what happened with the duplicate account.  Schmoopie created the account for herself but the IP address that showed up is one that Rain has used as well when at Schmoopie's house.   A very plausible explanation and certainly worthy of re-examining lifting the ban.

But unfortunately Rain didn't wait to hear from me and proceeded to splat the news of her ban to friends who promptly repeated the news as well as post herself about it on the openly.   My reply to her was to express regret that she did not wait to quietly work this out with me so that no one was the wiser, including mods, but instead choose indiscretion to create more public drama.  I'm tired of the drama so the ban stays. 

People, if you've been gagged or banned and you think it was unfair, contact me privately.  I won't lift a finger to help you if you go traipsing around announcing you've been banned.  Discretion is your friend.  Embrace it. Enjoy it.  It can save you boatloads of heartache and embarrassment.

Can I just say that I disagree with this as a reason for retaining the ban. It's your site and you may do with it as you wish, but this seems like it's stubbornness and even a bit vindictive to me. Retaining a ban just because she spoke out about her ban? Is that really the kind of behaviour we would want people to show? I would suggest that discretion on your part would have been good here, by discretely reinstating her and apologising to her privately for the error, maybe with a request that she not discuss it too widely. Or standing up and saying that the ban stays merely because she was a member of the group would have seemed fine to me too. But this? It leaves a bit of a bad taste. JMHO though and YMMV.

Disclaimer: I do not know Raina, I was not involved in the group, nor did I have any knowledge of it. I love eHell, though I don't post much because I have found that people tend to jump on posters who disagree. I do hope that the actions of the mods here will help to mitigate that and I do not entirely disagree with all their actions here.

whoknows

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Re: Ex member
« Reply #365 on: October 28, 2011, 07:05:30 AM »
Let me dispel one more misconception about this oh, so secret group - it was linked on ehell in its early days. It was never created to bash anyone. I'm coming up as a member. I have nothing to be ashamed of. Sometimes we got frustrated with seeing the same behaviour over and over again from some posters and we talked about it. Not unlike how we talk about people's behaviour in the SS thread. "bashing" an action and bashing a poster are two different things.

I'm happy to try and clarify and shed some more light on the issue from my perspective. However, I won't have a computer until Sunday evening and posting from my phone is annoying. If I don't get banned for coming forwards and this thread is still here, I will return to it then..

Excellent!  Open the group to public view and let people make their own judgments.

I really don't think appropriate, would you like access to the conversations I have with my DH about threads and posters? Isn't it the same?

How is this request any different than wanting to know what I talk to my friends about chatting over coffee? Or someone coming up to me IRL and demanding to see my diary to see if I wrote about them? Or demanding to go through my knicker drawer?

What I do in my free time is my choice, as long as it is not illegal no-one can say anything not even my boss! I really enjoy ehell and spend a lot of time here, but i also spend a lot of time in the other group. it is fun, we talk about allsorts including cooking, relationship issues, ehell; just as I would with DH or friends.

At the beginning as someone else said it was like going off to college and getting a bit wild but it calmed down, and those who didn't either choose to leave or were asked to leave.

I don't usually pay attention to user name but when you do, it is easy to see that people are posting the same thing over but don't take the advice or appear to be trolls with outrageous storie. I haven't reported people because it is just the internet at the end of the day but I can see why people get upset as people who pray on peoples emotions or try to antagonise people are not overtly repremanded but posters who question them are told off/gagged etc.

As to the question wry exchange asked, they might have been worded badly, but I u have a new friends you ask do u like X tv show or X politician to see if are on the same wavelength. Are these questions not the same, when ur only point of reference is a shared forum and the people on it. Scuba dog was not recruited she asked about another forum as she appears to be unhappy here.

I don't know what will happen next but I miss the ehell I joined.

Take care all xx

ETA: correct spelling mistakes I missed
« Last Edit: October 28, 2011, 07:44:57 AM by Marmi23 »

Aeris

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Re: Ex member
« Reply #366 on: October 28, 2011, 07:37:53 AM »
Wow. You stop obsessively reading ehell for a few days and bam, the world explodes.

I have to admit, the whole situation is deeply troubling to me. I have to echo a previous poster that, honestly, neither side is coming out of this smelling like roses in this.

Obviously, there's a lot of information I don't know, and a lot of information that is surely none of my business. But the accusations and insinuations, on both sides are...deeply concerning.

If it is true that a group of people were acting in a concerted fashion to dogpile disliked posters, provoke, over-report (w/ vitriol), and otherwise cyberbully - then I am saddened and disturbed. Anyone directly engaging in such behavior is surely quite rightly banned. I won't expound at length on my sadness on that subject, just because I think all of the prior comments about 'mean girls', etc, are spot on and don't need my less eloquent rehashing.

But I am also deeply bothered by the notion that has been expressed here by a few posters, and seems to be alluded to by some of the mods, that merely being a member of an outside group, some of whose members engaged in bad acts, makes you bannable. I sincerely hope that is not what has happened here.

While I can agree that if a group existed solely and expressly for such 'bad act' purposes, membership alone may indeed be indicative. However, if the group's express purpose was something altogether different, and only a few members of this group began to behave badly - other members of that group might not even have *known* about the bad acts.

If I were to join a facebook group, I would not consider myself automatically responsible for everything that other members of that group do, or what they post in that group (or anywhere else). If I were *specifically* aware that members were cyberbullying someone, I would likely say something. However, it's far more likely that if some members were engaging in snarky drama I didn't care about, I would start skimming over or ignoring those posts/members. If the entire group gave over to that kind of drama, I would just excuse myself.

And before anyone asks, no, I am not a member, nor have I ever been a member, of the super secret facebook group. I'm rather allergic to facebook. (Which is, incidentally, why it is quite easy for me to imagine joining a group, then not logging into facebook for 2 months and having absolutely no earthly idea what's being posted in that group).

The idea that one might be banned from ehell simply by being a member of a group in which some other members committed bad acts - I am deeply, deeply bothered by this notion. This is not how I would hope that moderation decisions at ehell are made.

I sincerely hope that is *not* what has happened here, and fully admit that I don't really understand if it was. I would hope that each person banned has been banned because they personally were involved in bad acts, and not simply 'guilt by association', or 'guilt by proximity'.

A few posters and more than one mod have called for the facebook group to be opened up to public perusal. While this seems like a good way, on its face, to determine the true nature of the group, I can see some significant and completely legitimate reasons why the members of this group might not be willing to do this - even if the group is entirely innocuous (or if any bad behavior was limited to a few members). In all likelihood, members of that group posted a decent amount of personal information that they only felt comfortable sharing *because* it was a private group. There may be personal sexual information, legal information, medical information, posted there and attached to people's real and full names.

You cannot expect for people to be willing to have that kind of information suddenly publicly available to the entirety of the internet simply to prove what the nature of the group is. That is surely not a reasonable or fair request.

******

I will also say that I'm extremely disturbed by the situation of Rainha's banning. If I am understanding Ehelldame correctly, Rainha was essentially banned by accident, as a result of a technological blip, which Ehelldame herself acknowledges. However, for the sole reason that Rainha apparently told a friend that she had apparently been banned, she will now remain banned.

I do not understand this reasoning, and it concerns me. If an accidentally banned poster immediately fired off a vitriolic rant at a mod or EHD, I would completely understand retaining the ban for the new 'bad act'. Or if the banned poster blogged or posted public vitriol somewhere. But, if I'm understanding EHD correctly, and I admit I may not be, Rainha did not fire off any public or private vitriol. What EHD's post appears to say is simply that she told friends she had been banned.

I...did not realize that in itself was a bannable offense.

This is quite strange to me - if I were banned or gagged from Ehell, I'm quite sure I would discuss such a thing with my friends and boyfriend. Wouldn't many of us? Particularly if we were not entirely sure why we had been banned/gagged in the first place? And if our friends IRL included ehellions, wouldn't it be natural to discuss it with them?

I understand the frustration EHD must be feeling at all the drama, and this must just seem like yet one more piece of it, but this ban in particular, from what EHD herself has said of it, just seems entirely...problematic.

This whole situation makes me really, really sad.

MariaE

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Re: Ex member
« Reply #367 on: October 28, 2011, 07:41:11 AM »
Well said, Aeris. I completely agree.
 
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Ehelldame

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Re: Ex member
« Reply #368 on: October 28, 2011, 07:45:52 AM »
Gahr, it was not created to bash anyone. We have always been encouraged to create friendships off board. The group was that. Someone started a fb thread and someone else created a group so we could have a place where we all were and we could chat.

I think we need to make sure people understand that there are two Facebook groups.  One is open and one is private.  Neither of these are official spin-offs of Ehell although a few people have privately PMed to say they were under the impression the private one was.  There is an Ehell *page* which is an Ehell sanctioned site on Facebook.  The link to the Ehell page on Facebook can be found on the site's main page in the side bar. 

The question arises as to which Facebook group was really started as a benign place for Ehellions to meet and greet.  I'm betting it was the open group which predates the private one.   The Chat feature only shows those people who are friended with you, not every member of the group so privacy to discuss personal matters has always been a feature of the open group. 

Quote
Wordgeek, I'm sorry, but that is not my call to make. While I'm not un any way opposed to the group being opened, there are plenty of people who don't want their personal info out there for everyone to see, especially since some medical issues have been discussed.

That is unfortunate and foolish that they shared personal information with so many people  who could not all have possibly been close friends.   

POF

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Re: Ex member
« Reply #369 on: October 28, 2011, 07:53:18 AM »
I've working 14 hour days and then going about my usual busy life with kids, parents, friends etc.

Logged in to EHELL this AM .... and I am absolutely shocked at everything.  But not surprised. Something was up .... and I never knew what .... but I saw some levels of meanness - that never really made sense.

I am not going to say I agree with all the rules ( I never do anywhere :) ). But this is E-Hell Dames forum.  Its her way or the highway.

I appreciate having this forum as a bit of recreation, source of advice and just as an internet playground.

Thanks Dame and the Mods.

The Opinionator

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Re: Ex member
« Reply #370 on: October 28, 2011, 07:56:40 AM »
It was the now private one. I can tell you the exact thread in which it was linked. As I've said, give me until Sunday evening. I don't know if moderators have access to messages posters have deleted, but I had posted a shorter version of he link so if you do, feel free to go through my deleted posts and fine it. I'll explain the reason for the deleyion when in at a computer.

I know about the official group. In fact I'm one if the admins after the previous one flounced.
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Yvaine

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Re: Ex member
« Reply #371 on: October 28, 2011, 07:57:02 AM »
What EHD's post appears to say is simply that she told friends she had been banned.

I...did not realize that in itself was a bannable offense.

This is quite strange to me - if I were banned or gagged from Ehell, I'm quite sure I would discuss such a thing with my friends and boyfriend. Wouldn't many of us? Particularly if we were not entirely sure why we had been banned/gagged in the first place? And if our friends IRL included ehellions, wouldn't it be natural to discuss it with them?

Same here, actually. I get the idea from the Dame's posts that she sees getting banned as something so deeply shameful that it must be kept secret, but I never would have thought of it that way. I'd definitely talk it over with some friends.

And I agree about not always knowing everything that goes on in a FB group, too. I was on the one for my hometown, and there were a few racist trolls on there. I, and others, dealt with these jerks through the channels of that group. But it was such a high-volume group that most people didn't even put it in their feed--they removed it from their feed and just went directly to that group when they felt like reading it. It would have been easy for a member to never even see a racist post or know that one had been made, let alone report it to anyone. The idiots were one or two among hundreds.

I mean, I don't see every post at Ehell either, and I don't feel obligated to leave Ehell because there have been a few deeply distasteful posters (prejudiced trolls etc., not just people I don't like) over the years.

The email exchange is deeply troubling but I don't know if it was isolated or not. ETA: I guess when I'm saying is, every group has its trolls. The question is, were the "mean girls" that group's trolls, or were they representative of it? The fact that one of them was approving a member doesn't necessarily say anything. A lot of FB groups are set up so that any member can add people.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2011, 08:03:45 AM by Yvaine »

Ygraine

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Re: Ex member
« Reply #372 on: October 28, 2011, 08:05:43 AM »
Just want to throw my two cents in...
 I had absolutely no idea that all of this was going on behind the scenes.  I attempted to log into EHell on this past Monday, and found, to my utter astonishment, I had been banned.  I couldn't for the life of me understand why, and contacted a few ehellions I knew from a game we all play if they had Miss Jeanne's e-mail address so that I could contact her and find out why.   While waiting for a reply from them, I had the brilliant idea of contacting her via the blog.  I had an incredibly quick, polite and apologetic response from her, rectifying the situation.   For me, no harm, no foul, except for a few hours of "E Hell Withdrawal".   Have any of the "bannees" asked Miss Jeanne for an explanation? 
 I, too, have noticed that the tone of some of the posters was becoming less than polite, but since I truly hate confrontation (but will engage if needed), I stayed away, trusting that the mods would handle it.  I was saddened by my decision to do so, especially since it came during a time I really wanted to post in the INAH section about a horrible situation going on in my little life.  I needed (and still need) some impartial, but compassionate, kindly advice on this situation, but didn't want to set myself up for the probable responses I would receive.  What happened to the forum I love so dearly?
 I will POD  the advice/resposes to PPs - It's Miss Jeanne's forum - if you don't like the rules, leave.  If you don't like a particular topic, stay out of it.  To also quote Thumper, "If you can't say something nice..."  I don't mean that you cannot disagree, but it can and should be done respectfully. 
 I won't address the issues of dogpiling, "mean girls" and the rest, as it has already been done much more eloquently than I can. 
 Please, let's all do a mental "lessons learned" and get back to being our usually supporting selves.
 
 

Ehelldame

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Re: Ex member
« Reply #373 on: October 28, 2011, 08:37:54 AM »
I'm going to lay out very specifically why a large number of posters were banned primarily for behavior that happened on this forum.  Taken directly from the Forum Rules:

By registering to join this forum and have posting privileges, you are entering into an agreement to abide by the rules of this forum. If you do not believe you can honor the rules, please refrain from registering. 

It doesn't get any more black and white than this.  When you joined yo had to click on an "I agree" button that you had read the forum rules and agreed to abide by them.  Don't like the rules or how the forum is moderated?  Don't join.  As simple as that. 

As stated further in the forum rules, moderators have no obligation to explain why they have taken the moderating action they have so if you publish a thread wanting to know why your thread was closed, don't be surprised if you are permanently gagged from participating on this forum.

Every person banned had publicly questioned, complained or demanded the moderators explain their actions or express disapproval of the moderation.  The vast majority of them had not bothered to privately PM a mod or use the report feature to assist moderators in doing their job.  I personally spent hours going through the Moderation Log to document every one of the 167 members who, in a 30 day period, had made reports and than I compared that information to who was making public drama over moderation.   In fact, anytime you see public posts griping about moderation, it should be a red flag that perhaps this person is creating drama and needs to be reported.  Hundreds of people successfully use the Report Post feature and many, many people know they can privately PM a mod with a concern, even concerns about other mods!   The forum rules will be amended in a day or so to reflect the further clarification.

If you donít like the moderators, the forum owner, or the way this forum is moderated, please donít register and post.
It should go without saying that adults know how to walk away quietly from forums they dislike whereas children rant and leave Good Bye Cruel Forum posts.


It's obvious that there is a lot of bitterness and resentment about perceived moderation choices.  It's also obvious that people did not walk away from the forum with dignity or decorum whatsoever.

Etiquettehell.com and its affiliates reserve the right, in their sole discretion, to edit, refuse to post or remove any material submitted to or posted on the forum. We also reserve the right to gag and/or ban people deemed to be unedifying to the health of the forum and not feel any obligation to explain why. Either you trust that the moderators of this forum are acting with its best interests in mind by way of majority consensus or you donít trust them. If the latter, please refrain from registering for an account. 

This is the third time the "don't like it, leave or don't register" rule appears.  It doesn't get much more explicit than this.  It's a big Internet world out there and I am sure there must be other forums which are better suited to those who dislike the Ehell style of moderation. 

The vast majority of the recently banned violated most or all of the above forum rules.  Then some violated this one:

It has been a very longstanding and previously unwritten policy of the forum owner that anyone bringing trouble to the forum will be automatically banned.  "Trouble" is defined as, 1) making a post on Ehell linking to another forum, mentioning them by specific name or hinting in such a way that it is obvious who or what forum is being referred to for critical commentary.  General references are OK (example: "A wedding planning board I use to post at.....")  2) Posting trash talk in other forums or blogs that directs or points unwelcome "visitors" to harass the Ehell forum or encourages a forum war in any way. 

Hostile, embittered members who could not walk away from the forum are what I would describe as "unwelcome visitors" but I'll amend the rule to clarify its meaning for the legalists.

Reposted in Forum Announcements as a separate announcement. 

lady_disdain

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Re: Ex member
« Reply #374 on: October 28, 2011, 08:43:09 AM »
Like Aeris, I haven't been much on eHell this past week and I am very surprised at everything that is going. Quite upset, in fact. I am trying to figure it all out and I am very confused. On one hand, I have a hard time believing that all this bullying and trash talking was going on. However, in retrospect, it makes a few threads more understandable. On the other, I am very disappointed with how this affair is being handled. Recently, EHellDame pubicly "congratulated" a member on being banned. That was unnecessarily snarky and goes against the policy of respecting banned member's privacy that has been stated on this thread. It is also only one of many such comments by nearly all mods. I do not think this was the polite, civilized way to handle this.

The "guilty by association" argument also worries me. From descriptions of members of the secret group, the group was not a dedicated bash ehell place, where only ehell was mentioned. It was also about all aspects of life. This leads to 2 considerations: it is perfectly possible to be in the group and not be involved in the negative aspects (sure, Wry Exchange's email was off, but was everyone approached like that?) and also the privacy issue.

On the first point, the eHell stance has been publicly stated to be that if you were there, then you are banned. Expect when you aren't, since several members have come forth about it and still are here. I do not agree with that. I think that the quote that was used to explain how this was conducted, "God will know his own", is actually quite apt, in a very sad way. For those who do not recognize it, it is attributed to one of the leaders of the Cathar Massacre, where thousands were killed because some had beliefs that were different from Church dogma. No effort was made to separate the heretics from others and, when questioned about this, the leader said that phrase: God would know the "righteous" and reward them in Heaven and punish the guilty in Hell. So, is this approach fair?

On the second, eHellDame states that it is unfortunate that people chose to share names and information with this group and that everyone in the group should be penalized for the acts of (from what we have seen) a few (since there seems to have been about 10 bannings and the group contains over 100 people). Once again, I disagree with this position. It also raises the question of how this site treats my personal information. If some in ehell made mischief in another forum, would eHell open up my data, simply because I am also a member?

Does this post seem too harsh on eHell and light on the members of the secret group? I think it does, but that is not my intention. There have been errors on both sides, but I can only comment on the fact I know. I have read the mods' opinions and thoughts, therefore I speak my mind on them. I have only fragments of everything else that happened, which is described as much larger. But I don't know what happened, how or by whom. I wish, however, to stress that I do not condone bullying, gossiping or hatred.

Now, if you will all excuse me, I am going to take a nice, long break.