Author Topic: Ex member  (Read 79095 times)

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Yvaine

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Re: Ex member
« Reply #375 on: October 28, 2011, 08:49:20 AM »
However, in retrospect, it makes a few threads more understandable.

That it does. I had been wondering about some threads, and now they make more sense.  :-\

Teenyweeny

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Re: Ex member
« Reply #376 on: October 28, 2011, 08:51:24 AM »
Aeris & lady_disdain, thank you for laying out so eloquently what has been troubling me about all of this.

(Also, which threads? I see some people being disagreed with,  but actually, I have been party to that myself, because I genuinely did disagree!)



Yvaine

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Re: Ex member
« Reply #377 on: October 28, 2011, 08:55:29 AM »
Aeris & lady_disdain, thank you for laying out so eloquently what has been troubling me about all of this.

(Also, which threads? I see some people being disagreed with,  but actually, I have been party to that myself, because I genuinely did disagree!)

There were a couple of OPs that just got overly jumped on in recent weeks, no matter what they posted, and given that they were the ones that the foulmouthed poster ranted about, I think those posters were being trolled on purpose to provoke them.

yokozbornak

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Re: Ex member
« Reply #378 on: October 28, 2011, 08:59:31 AM »
It doesn't matter why the Facebook group was formed, but it does matter what the results have been.  The members of the "uber secret special Facebook taskforce" have every right to form any group they want, post whatever they want, insult whoever they want, etc.  The issue comes in when what they are doing over there spills over to what is happening here. It has been very obvious for the past few months that some type of weird things were happening, but being fairly new and fairly oblivious, I didn't know exactly what was going on.  I personally felt harrassed on one thread a few months ago, but assumed it was just someone who didn't like me and let it go.  Now I wonder if there was more to it since that person was named as one of the banned. 

Mutiny and mass bannings like this have happened on every big message board I have ever been part of (the DISboards and TWOP being two right off the top of my head), and the administrators have every right to ban people who are harming their site.  The posters may have a sense of ownership in E-hell and feel invested in "saving" it from posters they don't like, but they don't own it and their actions undermined it instead of edifying it.  Also, there is always collateral damage when something like this happens.  I am sure some posters were banned that may not have deserved it, but you know what?  That's life.   There is no perfect way to handle a situation like this, and the mods have to do the best job with the information they have.

Once again, I ask - if you hate the modes, hate the forum owner, and hate Ehell then why is it so important to be here and preserve the place?

jibby

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Re: Ex member
« Reply #379 on: October 28, 2011, 09:25:40 AM »
POD everything Aeris said.

I really hope those banned were not all involved in the mean girls activity. Pathetic. Some posters frustrate me but I just avoid the threads they start. It's that simple. Reading their threads is the same as attending a party where I'll be forced to interact with someone who pushes my buttons, and life is too short for that self induced drama.

Thank you to the mods for keeping this thread open.

Yvaine, we stl-ans rightly reserve our vitriol for the Rangers this week! ;) And whatever you were wanting to post about - hugs and positive vibes for you.

I'm off to create a supersecretFB group for those of us who are not cool enough for the Group, and not interesting enough to be targets. We shall call ourselves The Irrelevants. j/k

yokozbornak

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Re: Ex member
« Reply #380 on: October 28, 2011, 09:27:19 AM »
Like Aeris, I haven't been much on eHell this past week and I am very surprised at everything that is going. Quite upset, in fact. I am trying to figure it all out and I am very confused. On one hand, I have a hard time believing that all this bullying and trash talking was going on. However, in retrospect, it makes a few threads more understandable. On the other, I am very disappointed with how this affair is being handled. Recently, EHellDame pubicly "congratulated" a member on being banned. That was unnecessarily snarky and goes against the policy of respecting banned member's privacy that has been stated on this thread. It is also only one of many such comments by nearly all mods. I do not think this was the polite, civilized way to handle this.

The "guilty by association" argument also worries me. From descriptions of members of the secret group, the group was not a dedicated bash ehell place, where only ehell was mentioned. It was also about all aspects of life. This leads to 2 considerations: it is perfectly possible to be in the group and not be involved in the negative aspects (sure, Wry Exchange's email was off, but was everyone approached like that?) and also the privacy issue.

On the first point, the eHell stance has been publicly stated to be that if you were there, then you are banned. Expect when you aren't, since several members have come forth about it and still are here. I do not agree with that. I think that the quote that was used to explain how this was conducted, "God will know his own", is actually quite apt, in a very sad way. For those who do not recognize it, it is attributed to one of the leaders of the Cathar Massacre, where thousands were killed because some had beliefs that were different from Church dogma. No effort was made to separate the heretics from others and, when questioned about this, the leader said that phrase: God would know the "righteous" and reward them in Heaven and punish the guilty in Hell. So, is this approach fair?

On the second, eHellDame states that it is unfortunate that people chose to share names and information with this group and that everyone in the group should be penalized for the acts of (from what we have seen) a few (since there seems to have been about 10 bannings and the group contains over 100 people). Once again, I disagree with this position. It also raises the question of how this site treats my personal information. If some in ehell made mischief in another forum, would eHell open up my data, simply because I am also a member?

Does this post seem too harsh on eHell and light on the members of the secret group? I think it does, but that is not my intention. There have been errors on both sides, but I can only comment on the fact I know. I have read the mods' opinions and thoughts, therefore I speak my mind on them. I have only fragments of everything else that happened, which is described as much larger. But I don't know what happened, how or by whom. I wish, however, to stress that I do not condone bullying, gossiping or hatred.

Now, if you will all excuse me, I am going to take a nice, long break.

Per the bolded, I just want to add my opinion.  This group is scecret and has refused requests to make their discussions public (which is their right), but I imagine it makes figuring out who was innocent in this mess a whole lot harder for EHD and the moderators.  Honestly, I think the fairest thing they can do is ban everyone involved and then re-instate if there is a compelling reason to do so.  Also, what you see as guilt by association others see as enableing behavior (they knew what was happening and didn't say anything). 

Shores

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Re: Ex member
« Reply #381 on: October 28, 2011, 09:30:26 AM »
I don't think repeated requests for an opened group are very productive. Not only do FB groups contain a wealth of information (at the minimum, people's real names, links back to their pages where tons of information can be gleaned, etc) but the ADMIN has already been banned from EHell. So it really wouldn't matter what any specific member of that group felt about going public. The person with the only power to do so would have no reason to since they've already been ousted.
Wherever you go.... there you are.

HermioneGranger

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Re: Ex member
« Reply #382 on: October 28, 2011, 09:33:03 AM »
I admit to being gagged once, and it was pretty embarrassing for me.  I've played by the rules since then, since I like this board very much, and appreciate that it's heavily moderated to cut down on the drama.  I've also noticed a change in tone over the past few months, but like many others couldn't quite put my finger on why.  I'm deeply saddened by the recent bannings, as I held many of them in high regard, but as another poster already said upthread, sometimes you're known by the company you keep.  If you hang out with the mean girls, people will think think you're one too, right or wrong.  I disagree about Raina's banning, considering the circumstances, but this is Miss Jeanne's house, and she has the final say of who is allowed in and who isn't. 

I would also like to thank Miss Jeanne and the mods for being so upfront about everything these past few days, as well as for their handing of this, as I'm another long-time poster who was clueless about what was going on, and I've been a member since the Delphooey days.  I haven't posted much either lately, for fear of being jumped on. 

still in va

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Re: Ex member
« Reply #383 on: October 28, 2011, 09:39:11 AM »
I don't think repeated requests for an opened group are very productive. Not only do FB groups contain a wealth of information (at the minimum, people's real names, links back to their pages where tons of information can be gleaned, etc) but the ADMIN has already been banned from EHell. So it really wouldn't matter what any specific member of that group felt about going public. The person with the only power to do so would have no reason to since they've already been ousted.

my agreement that the group should be opened for all to see last night was based on the fact that one member of the secret group, who was NOT banned by association, posted several pm's from members of the group who had been banned. 

that member is the one who opened the door, even that tiny sliver.  if the group is closed (and that's fine with me) then pm's from members there should not be posted here.  frankly, i really have no interest in knowing who was in the group, who was banned from here, who was actively agitating here and who just stood back and watched.  i left high school a long time ago.

posting such things to this board does not help their cause, if their cause is to be re-instated here.  if that is their wish, and it can be shown that they didn't know what was going on, then they need to be discussing it with EHD, in private.  behind the scenes.  it sounds like they do very well in communicating behind the scenes. 

just my opinion.  as always, YMMV.

Shores

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Re: Ex member
« Reply #384 on: October 28, 2011, 09:46:55 AM »
It seems that there are multiple instances (the weird PM, messages from the dead, etc) that the behavior of one or a couple members is painting the whole group a certain shade. Even if members are posting messages from "the fallen", they still have no control of whether or not it is ever opened. Only one person has that power.
Wherever you go.... there you are.

Bexx27

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Re: Ex member
« Reply #385 on: October 28, 2011, 09:48:46 AM »
[quote author=yokozbornak link=topic=108418.msg2552678#msg2552678
Per the bolded, I just want to add my opinion.  This group is scecret and has refused requests to make their discussions public (which is their right), but I imagine it makes figuring out who was innocent in this mess a whole lot harder for EHD and the moderators.  Honestly, I think the fairest thing they can do is ban everyone involved and then re-instate if there is a compelling reason to do so.  Also, what you see as guilt by association others see as enableing behavior (they knew what was happening and didn't say anything).
[/quote]

Trimming the quote tree. I think part of the point is that they may not have known what was happening. Some people visit FB quite infrequently and if the ehell bashing threads were a small part of what was posted there, there's no reason why everyone would have seen them. Personally, I know I would miss a lot of what happens on FB groups because I don't visit consistently, don't scroll too far down to older posts, and don't use the chat function. It also seems from what's been posted upthread that the original group splintered at some point, so it's not necessarily clear which group was reported or how recent/accurate the membership information was.

And even without the whole private information issue, what would the group gain by becoming public? The banned members don't seem to want to come back, so they have nothing to prove. The members who haven't been banned, presumably because they haven't broken any rules on ehell, would be considered "guilty by association" and possibly ostracized on ehell.

I also want to thank the mods for keeping this thread open. Allowing us to have this discussion is a good way to address some members' concerns about lack of transparency in moderation.
How far you go in life depends on your being tender with the young, compassionate with the aged, sympathetic with the striving and tolerant of the weak and strong. Because someday in life you will have been all of these. -George Washington Carver

zainabzks

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Re: Ex member
« Reply #386 on: October 28, 2011, 09:58:06 AM »
I am sure Jeanne and the mods have  excellent reasons for banning whomever they did. I too had noticed a difference in the forum. I had stopped posting abbot my personal life when I felt the mean girls effect some time ago. I thought it was just me so I kept quiet.
I had also noticed a lot more crass language than in previous years.

Some people onthis forum are phenomenal and I can't wait to keep interacting with them.

I hope everyone can move on with their regulay scheduled e-hell. It's not worh the energy festering on internet strangers' trolling habits.

I have been a member of ehell for nine years and this has happened at least once before.
The forum got better after the trolls left- I'm sure it will again.


Thank you Jeanne for inviting me to your playground. You pay for it and take care of it. This is the reason it hasn't turned into some other crazy forums.



Thanks Jeannes, Wordgeek

hardia

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Re: Ex member
« Reply #387 on: October 28, 2011, 09:59:00 AM »
I just wanted to say that I have been around the internet a long time, and every single community I have been a part of, every last one, has had something like this happen at one time or another.  Splinter groups happen.  Sometimes they start innocently, as I believe this one did, where people find they have something in common and want to be more open with each other and form deeper friendships in a more private venue than such a large board with thousands of members provides.  In the past I've been part of a splinter group like that (not e-hell related).  Sometimes they're set up from the beginning as a place for angry or disillusioned posters to gather and vent their dissatisfaction.  Sometimes they start as one and become the other, or have elements of both.  I'm aware of a splinter group (again, not e-hell related) that started as a very angry group of people who had been banned from or were unhappy with a certain website, and over time their board became a more general discussion board and there is now very little posting about the original board that they set up their group to complain about, and they even have lots of members who have never even heard of, let alone been banned from, the original board.

It's part of being on the internet.  I'm certainly sorry it happened, I'm sorry people were hurt, I will definitely miss some of the posters who have been banned, but I'm not surprised.  It's the way of the internet.  And Etiquette Hell will go on, and continue to change, and new posters will fill in the holes that the banned (and those who have left by choice) posters have left.

Expressing concern or giving feedback in a thoughtful, polite, balanced way is acceptable, I think.  Most people who do so, do it because they love the board and want to help maintain the community they feel attached to or invested in.  I don't for a minute believe that the Facebook group was started to in any way harm the board, or even really be about the board at all.  I can totally see how it happened -- as I said, I was once a member of a very similar group for another board, where a group of us realized we had a lot in common and wanted a place where we could share more openly with each other.  We set up a private, by invitation only, separate board and moved our day-to-day discussions about our lives there.  We very rarely ever talked about the board where we had all met.  But we came from a huge board, none of us had posted there for very long, and we didn't feel invested in that community in the same way that I think a lot of the members of the Facebook group felt about this one, so I can see how more and more discussion in the Facebook group might have come to be about this board and the concerns people had about it.  I'm sorry it had to come to this.

Ontario, Canada

Tigger

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Re: Ex member
« Reply #388 on: October 28, 2011, 10:00:40 AM »
I've been here 4 1/2 years but post very little.   I don't care if someone was talking about me behind my back.  I don't know anyone here in real life so I guess I'm less emotionally invested than some.  The reality is I come here to read stories and get away from my real world.  Sometimes I just need down time and this forum provides that to me.

For those that were trash talking others shame on you.  We are all adults; or I thought so anyway.  I'm have no time or patience for mean girls.  I didn't in high school and I certainly don't now. If you can't be nice go away. If you feel somehow that this is 'your' forum maybe you need to step back.  It belongs to Ehelldame and no one else.

Seriously people, this is an internet forum. Ehelldame and the mods try their best.  Drama is draining.  I can honestly say this is the most drama I've seen in a longggggg time. I can only imagine how tired everyone is. 
I try to my best not to offend or anger anyone.  I also don't post enough really to do so. 

Let's take this forum for what it is and nothing more.  Let Ehelldame and the mods do their jobs.  Again I'll say it.  If you don't like the forum rules; leave.  No one is stopping you. 




Ontario

cbcb

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Re: Ex member
« Reply #389 on: October 28, 2011, 10:01:03 AM »
[insightful commentary clipped]

This whole situation makes me really, really sad.

I agree with this, particularly the point about neither side coming out well. Frankly, I'm rather irritated that so much of the commentary is basically polarized hating on the "other side". (I know, you're not hating, you're amused, they're the haters, go fly a kite and enjoy life, etc). Let's just be honest that both sides are displaying a lot of emotion - when a mod is stating that he hopes people won't pass their toxic personalities (apparently defined at their being members of a facebook group) onto kids, then you have an emotional situation.

The posters in the group, while labelled trolls, seem to have actually been active members in the forum. Many did not seem to be involved in overt trouble-making. Yet many have been just referred to as "trolls who hate it here". That seems an oversimplification. I get that it's easier to just think of them as bad guys and bullies and start with the bannings. But I think this is a good opportunity to examine why so many long-standing posters are apparently disgruntled.

I want to note that 1) I am not a member of the group, and that 2) I also have frequently done what the mods consider "proper" - reporting posts/threads and PM'ing them about decisions when I'm confused. But despite this, I've agreed with several of the critical threads that have arisen recently (e.g. LadyPekoe's). I understand that it's easier to just write the complainers off as bad-eggs, but the fact that I (and I assume others) who do report still feel disgruntled about the modding practices (particularly the secrecy) I think indicates an issue. I hope that this thread remaining open is a sign that modding generally will move into being a more open and communicative practice.

I'm not as invested here as some - I rarely post about my personal life, for example. But even as a fairly unemotionally attached poster, I've been irritated at discrepancies I've seen and offensive occurrences that were overlooked (and have done the mod-approved things in response).

I also agree with hardia that I've see a lot of forum explosions and her general take.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2011, 10:03:32 AM by cbcb »