The grammar corrector!

[TychaBrahe]

As for the Great Comma Debate, Associated Press Stylebook (newspaper bible) says it's not needed unless one of the items in the list contains a conjunction. ("We had ham, eggs and toast." "We had juice, toast, and ham and eggs.") Chicago Manual of Style (the book publishing bible) says use it always: "Tom, wingadingdingy, and Harry." I'm an old newspaperwoman who's now working for a syndicate that markets to newspapers, so I'm definitely an AP girl.

I grew up on CMS (and Turabian) and briefly had a Website opposed to the use of MLA in-line citations.  Don't get me started on in-line citations.  If certain people can't remember enough Latin to know when to use ibid. and idem, what meaningful contribution will they be making to the common body of knowledge anyway?

I need penultimate (Oxford) commas.  Every time I read a long list that doesn't include them, I find myself foundering after the period.  It's like walking up a long flight of stairs and reaching out for the next step only to find you've come to the end.  The mental sensation is worse than the physical sensation.

[TychaBrahe]

A friend of mine wanted to know if her daughter's pronunciation for a presentation was correct. She said, "It's HYPO-THEE-SIS, right?" I said, "No, it's pronounced hypoh-thuh-sus." (Hypothesis is the word.) She said that people at her daughter's university, even the lecturers, pronounce words incorrectly, and no one bothers to tell them they're wrong because "It used to be an Afrikaans university and they're used to lecturing in Afrikaans!!" As far as I'm concerned, that doesn't excuse a professional person from doing their best to use the correct pronunciation of words.

That excuses my French teacher, who tended to spell "family" with two l's, like the French "famille," or "carrot" as "carott," because in French it's "carrot."  Unless the words are similar--and Afrikaans comes from Dutch, so the similarities should be few and far beween--there's no excuse.

[TychaBrahe]

I'm watching season one of Emergency! on DVD and Roy De Soto, tired of being ribbed by his fellow firefighters for his cooking skills, has come in with a recipe for Beef Bourginon.  Which he is pronouncing "beef BORE-ge-non."  It's driving me nuts.

[katemonster]

A friend of mine wanted to know if her daughter's pronunciation for a presentation was correct. She said, "It's HYPO-THEE-SIS, right?" I said, "No, it's pronounced hypoh-thuh-sus." (Hypothesis is the word.) She said that people at her daughter's university, even the lecturers, pronounce words incorrectly, and no one bothers to tell them they're wrong because "It used to be an Afrikaans university and they're used to lecturing in Afrikaans!!" As far as I'm concerned, that doesn't excuse a professional person from doing their best to use the correct pronunciation of words.

That excuses my French teacher, who tended to spell "family" with two l's, like the French "famille," or "carrot" as "carott," because in French it's "carrot."  Unless the words are similar--and Afrikaans comes from Dutch, so the similarities should be few and far beween--there's no excuse.

I thought Dutch was quite closely related to English.

[Ant V]

Some corrections aren’t even worth it because the words can mean the same thing as in irregardless/regardless.    Why bother to correct "ain't"?.  It can be used in oral speech especially for emphasis.  You could get caught up in your policing and be required to tote around a very large dictionary. 

[JustEstelle]

So, is it ever OK? Never OK? OK depending on how close you are to the person? Or depending on tone and intention?

It's only OK if you are an English teacher and the offender is a student in your class at the time.  Otherwise, it's rude.

[Lacy]

So, is it ever OK? Never OK? OK depending on how close you are to the person? Or depending on tone and intention?

It's only OK if you are an English teacher and the offender is a student in your class at the time.  Otherwise, it's rude.

I guess I don't follow that logic. My husband and I are both writers and both think words matter -- we take the language seriously. It would be rude for us not to point out when the other used a word incorrectly or mispronounced a word.

(I like to use "snuck." Drives him batty.)

As other posters have said, it depends on context.  It may be rude in your circle, but it may not be rude in mine.

Irregardless of what anyone says. 

[T'Mar of Vulcan]

I thought Dutch was quite closely related to English.

I don't know if that's the case. I think it's related to German, though, because knowing how to speak Afrikaans definitely helped me when I took German in high school.

Afrikaans, of course, has Dutch as its root language, but because a few hundred years have passed since then, the languages are very different now. If you know Afrikaans and listen to someone speaking Dutch, you can figure out what they are saying since the pronunciation is similar. However, if you READ Dutch you end up going, "Huh?" When I took Afrikaans at university they made us read a Dutch novel and to this day I have no idea what happened in it except it was some guy wandering around a house somewhere.

[hobish]

Thebadchemist... I was wondering, since you're a big fan of the comma or really for anyone else. Do you know of a good grammar guide for me that I might be able to study to get better at comma usage. Its truly my huge weak point!

Turabian.

Also known as A Manual for Writers of Research Papers, Theses, and Dissertations. 

I loves me that Kate Turabian. 

Kate Turabian was the secretary of graduate studies at the University of Chicago for close to 30 years.  Every masters and doctoral dissertation had to pass through her. 

Oh, thank you. I am going to have to check that out, too. I haven't been able to remember the rules about quotation marks and how they should be used with other punctuation marks. I know the rules are comma then quotation mark; but there have been times that commas or periods used with quotation marks don't look right when i type them out. It's seriously vexing. I've been avoiding using those combos for fear of screwing it up, especially since i used to know exactly how to properly use them all.

[StarFaerie]

I corrected Elton John's Crocodile Rock automatically one day when it was playing on the radio. "Susie and I had so much fun." DH still teases me about it. Was I rude to Elton? 

[Paper Roses]

I thought Dutch was quite closely related to English.

I don't know if that's the case. I think it's related to German, though, because knowing how to speak Afrikaans definitely helped me when I took German in high school.

Afrikaans, of course, has Dutch as its root language, but because a few hundred years have passed since then, the languages are very different now. If you know Afrikaans and listen to someone speaking Dutch, you can figure out what they are saying since the pronunciation is similar. However, if you READ Dutch you end up going, "Huh?" When I took Afrikaans at university they made us read a Dutch novel and to this day I have no idea what happened in it except it was some guy wandering around a house somewhere.

T'Mar, can I ask you a question?  If you're speaking English, how do you pronounce the word "Afrikaans"?

I'm asking because overheard a conversation once several years ago - a woman was telling someone about her fiance, who was divorced and lived in Africa (she may have said "South Africa," I don't remember).  Apparently he had 2 children, who went to an English-speaking school there.  She kept referring to the language as (it sounded to me like) "Africano" or "Africana."  For example, she said the kids spoke "part English, part Africano." (Obviously, they were being raised to speak both languages).

I'm just curious if the language to which you refer is the same one she meant.   

[T'Mar of Vulcan]

T'Mar, can I ask you a question?  If you're speaking English, how do you pronounce the word "Afrikaans"?
I'm asking because overheard a conversation once several years ago - a woman was telling someone about her fiance, who was divorced and lived in Africa (she may have said "South Africa," I don't remember).  Apparently he had 2 children, who went to an English-speaking school there.  She kept referring to the language as (it sounded to me like) "Africano" or "Africana."  For example, she said the kids spoke "part English, part Africano." (Obviously, they were being raised to speak both languages).
I'm just curious if the language to which you refer is the same one she meant.   

We pronounce the word like so:
"Af" like the 'o' in "of"
"ri" like "ree"
and "kaans" like James Caan's name. 

I have never, ever heard a South African call Afrikaans anything except exactly that. I don't know what the woman was talking about, but I doubt she was referring to the Afrikaans language.

Afrikaans is a really easy language. The spelling and grammar is very simple, and if you know the rules, you can spell any word and construct sentences flawlessly. The one big thing, though, is the double negative. In Afrikaans you would say, "Ek het dit nie gedoen nie" (I didn't do it; literally "I did it not do not"). To leave off the second "nie" is completely wrong.

But when I tell the kids I teach (English, Afrikaans, Zulu, Sotho, Tswana, Venda, Xhosa, Chinese) that Afrikaans is actually easier than English, they look at me like I'm crazy!! Come on - from jump to jumped, yet swim to swam? And there are thousands of examples like this? In Afrikaans you would say 'spring', 'gespring', 'swem', 'geswem'. Much easier. I think English is only easy if it's your first language. I'm sure it would take a person learning another language MUCH less time to learn Afrikaans than English.

[Paper Roses]

So then, would it be "Of-ree-cahn?"  Just wondering.  This woman was not from the other country herself - possibly she was just mispronouncing it, or it could have just been another language.

I just wondered, because I remember hearing her say that, and then when I joined the board and saw you referring to it, I always thought, "oh, I wonder if that's the language she meant, and that's the way it's spelled." 

Thank you for answering. 

I don't recall her specifically saying they found either language harder or easier than the other, just that they spoke both.

[T'Mar of Vulcan]

So then, would it be "Of-ree-cahn?"

Of-ree-cahnS, yes.

(Looking at the above makes me think of Klingon for some reason...)

[mbbored]

Perhaps I'm in the minority here, but I think it's rude to correct someone about their grammar in public, which is what you're doing to your friends and SO. It makes them feel stupid and makes you look like an intellectual snob. As difficult as it might be, try to bite your tongue. The hurt feelings you create don't seem worthy of a visit from the grammar police.

POD.  I occasionally make grammar mistakes when I speak, and I HATE it when people correct me.  I can almost guarantee you, that if I've made a mistake, I'm aware of it, I know how it's supposed to be, and despite the error, the message behind my statement was still perfectly understandable.  Correcting that in front of others is demeaning and only serves to point out that you know the rule, particularly if you have interrupted me to do so: it doesn't teach me a new rule or word. 

I've also been in the situation where I'm the nonnative speaker of a language, and made spoken mistakes.  In those situations, when I've actually learned from my mistakes, is when after I finished my sentence, a friend would say, "I'm not sure what you meant," "the word is actually pronounced..." or "it's smoother to say xyz" and then respond to what I was actually saying.