children - how much noise is too much?

[Quesselin]

I did say that making my child stay "quiet" for 3 hours on a weekend morning so someone could sleep off their party probably wasn't going to happen. 

You know, some of us like to sleep late without having been to parties. I like to go to bed late in the weekends. I manage not to be noisy after a certain time, so as not to disturb you and your kids, and I hardly think it's too much to ask that you try to do the same with your kids. I do realize, of course, that it's as good as impossible for children to be quiet all the time, but the parents have a responsibility to try and keep the volume down. Again, you (general you) chose to have kids and not be able to sleep late. I haven't made that choice.

[NOVA Lady]

I believe I was responding to what the other posters had said about children in their complexes.  I never said that MY children were a problem, in fact, I am frequently complimented on their good behavior.  I did say that making my child stay "quiet" for 3 hours on a weekend morning so someone could sleep off their party probably wasn't going to happen.  One hour, two hours maybe...three--no.  Taking my child to the park in the middle of a Northwest winter simply is not an option. 

I don't see it as unreasonable AT ALL for a child to not scream and make enough noise to wake neighbors up for 3 hours. I don't see why a child who wont or whose parents wont make them use indoor voices and play queitly until its a reasonable hour would trump a building full of adults who are sleeping.

Would you be annoyed if the adults next door felt like being queit for the hours between 1-3am was unreasonable and decided that they shouldn't have to be queit those hours just because your child needs to sleep?

Respect is a 2 way street. If it were me next door to a toddler that screamed and was loud starting at 7am on weekends we'd have problems.

[freakyfemme]

If you cannot teach your child what is acceptable behavior when living so close to other people, then you shouldn't probably live in a multi-unit dwelling. An occasional outburst is probably expected, but if it is so constant that you are disturbing people then maybe you should get the child to a park where he can burn off some of that energy. Making sure that your child doesn't cause great disturbances to others is truly your responsibility as a parent. You can do it by teaching him to play quietly for a few hours, or you can do it by taking him somewhere else.

I believe I was responding to what the other posters had said about children in their complexes.  I never said that MY children were a problem, in fact, I am frequently complimented on their good behavior.  I did say that making my child stay "quiet" for 3 hours on a weekend morning so someone could sleep off their party probably wasn't going to happen.  One hour, two hours maybe...three--no.  Taking my child to the park in the middle of a Northwest winter simply is not an option. 

Secondly...not everyone is as lucky as you to be able to choose whether or not they will live in a house or a multi unit dwelling.  Trust me--I would love to live in a house, but it's just not in the budget right now.

She has also never been forced to sit on a chair for most of her waking hours, nor has she ever been smacked on the nose (or anywhere else for that matter).

Also responding to other posters who suggested that parents with children simply teach them to sit quietly in one place all day or train them as they have trained their animals.  These are not dolls nor animals--they are children.

Perhaps you should read my post again?

I think you're both right.  Teaching children acceptable behaviour, while simultaneously understanding their limits, is definitely a good thing.  Heavenly, are there any YMCA's in your area?  If so, a lot of them have tons of fun kids' programs on weekends, where the kids can go to do sports, play games, swim, make crafts, etc., while their parents work out.  If money's an issue, the membership fees are on a sliding scale, you just have to call in advance and ask to meet with someone to discuss it.

[MsEva]

I believe I was responding to what the other posters had said about children in their complexes.  I never said that MY children were a problem, in fact, I am frequently complimented on their good behavior.  I did say that making my child stay "quiet" for 3 hours on a weekend morning so someone could sleep off their party probably wasn't going to happen.  One hour, two hours maybe...three--no.  Taking my child to the park in the middle of a Northwest winter simply is not an option. 

Well, when you write about your children's behavior it's only natural for one to believe that it is your children that you are referring to. If you can't go to the park there are places like McDonalds and shopping malls that have play areas for children. I never said that it was easy, only that it was your responsiblilty.

Secondly...not everyone is as lucky as you to be able to choose whether or not they will live in a house or a multi unit dwelling.  Trust me--I would love to live in a house, but it's just not in the budget right now.

Luck had nothing to do with it. It was hard work and planning and deciding to forgo many things in order to have a house. Bottom line is that no one gets a free pass for disturbing people in mulit-unit housing because they can't afford a single family home. You adjust your actions to where you live. I know. I lived in the same tiny one bedroom apartment for 13 years.

Also responding to other posters who suggested that parents with children simply teach them to sit quietly in one place all day or train them as they have trained their animals.  These are not dolls nor animals--they are children.

Perhaps you should read my post again?

Children can and do need to be taught to speak quietly and to not stomp about. If they walk quietly then you don't have to worry about them moving around. It's harder and more work for the parents, but it can be done. Besides, if they were animals they would learn to behave a lot sooner.

Teaching children respect for others has to start early or you will be fighting an uphill battle all of their lives.

[fklwmn]

I agree with most of what was said here. I would expect children to keep their noise level to the same standard level as adults are held to. Just because a household has a child does not mean that all those living around a household must suffer.

When me and SO had looked into living arraingments (before we found our current digs) we were looking to avoid small children so high rises were out, as were garden style type units, next on our list was anywhere that had plastic play school stuff. But other then that people cannot avoid children (except for the eldering, the only type of "discrimination" allowed in housing, a minimum age limit) because having a child-free living community would not be legal (too bad).

As for the babies crying, sure I understand but sometimes its ridiculous. We had a next door neighbor 4 years ago who had a baby and decided she was going to do that "raising children the family way" or whatever that is (bergerizing) where you basically let the baby cry for however long it cries for (the theory says the baby is trying to manipulate mom/dad by crying and not to let in).

Well she definetly followed this method. One day I could not take it anymore. I was studying for some finals and was sitting in the room furthest away from our common wall (it was a walk in closet!) and the baby cried on/off for 7 hours before I had had it. This was after 3 months of this method and I had enough. I marched down to the property management office, marched them up to my unit and made them sit there and listen (we shared a bedroom wall and part of the living room wall as well). It was deafening my unit. ALL night ALL day. That poor baby it makes me so sad. But THAT should not be allowed. Its nice she was trying to different method and one can raise their kids how they want but not if it infringes so drastically on someone else!

Do you know for a fact that she was letting the baby 'cry it out'? I only ask this b/c DS1 was COLICKY. he would cry for hours very night, and nothing we could do would help. I would just sit and rock him for hours while he wailed. Eventually he would just stop, but not b/c of anything I did or didn't do.

At the time we lived in a house, but the neighborhood had mere feet (like maybe 4?) between each house, and since we were in hawaii (where the majority of the houses have neither heat nor a/c)  everyone had those floor to ceiling slat windows that were oopen all the time. I imagine our neighbors were VERY tired of baby cries, and after reading this post, I wonder if maybe they thought I was just letting him 'cry it out' as well

[NOVA Lady]

FKL.... Yes she told me personally she was doing the "ferber" method (or whatever its called) to get her infant to stop "manipulating her".

She was quite a piece of work and I was happy to be done with living next to her!

[wetblanket]

Anyone else notice the disparity of "acceptable" quiet times in the responses.  Anywhere from before 5:00am to after 10:00pm.  Hee Hee.  And...I hate to tell you all this, but my toddler doesn't keep "weekend" hours.  He gets up at 7:00am every day no matter what.  I can't just tell him to sleep in--he doesn't understand that concept yet.  I would LOVE to sleep in, but I birthed a morning person...sigh.  Yes...I do try to keep him quiet, but 3 hours of being quiet just isn't going to happen.  Sorry.

No...I don't think you (general you) hate children.  But I DO think you don't understand that I can't just put my children on a chair and tell them to be quiet for most of their waking hours.  That is considered abuse.  Nor are they animals to be sent to obedience school and smacked on the nose when they pee or bark.  They are undergrown adults with their own personalities and temperaments who laugh, run, and play more than grown up adults.  This is healthy and normal.

I do my best to keep the noise level down, but I'm not going to discipline my child because he/she was excited about something and ran down the hall to tell me.  If you complain about the noise, I might be just as inclined to talk to you about the x-box competition you and your "adult" friends had (complete with yelling and loud sound effects) until 11:00pm--or the cocktail party that got louder and louder as your guests got drunker and drunker until 1:00am.  People who live in glass houses...

Point is--it goes both ways.  People with children should attempt to keep things as quiet as possible and people without children should as well.  What you consider to be quiet may not be feasible with small children and what you consider to be an acceptable noise level for your TV may be keeping a toddler from getting a nap.

Whoa....  Who said anything about disciplining (i.e. smacking) the child for making noise?  Or making them sit in a chair all day? 

And what's all this about glass houses? Just because someone complains about noisy kids doesn't mean that person is noisy themselves and is being hypocritical.

[CocoCamm]

I have been able to find it w/ 2 dogs I think people should be able to manage w/ their kids.

AH HA HA HA HA!!!!  You're kidding, right?

Nope! I think if people can keep their animals from being a noisy nuisance then parents can do the same. I mean come on, kids have a concept of how loud they are and
its your job as a parent to teach your kids to be considerate of others and that includes watching their noise level. I'm not saying that occasionally being loud is bad but allowing it to go on for an extended period of time is down right rude.

Also just because your kid is a morning person doesnt mean that anyone with in hearing distance has to be just like a night owl doesnt have the right to keep everyone around him awake until all hours of the morning. I dont think anyone here is saying that kids should be in bed or silent during x-x hours but they definatley shouldnt be making an abundance of noise.

[NOVA Lady]

I have been able to find it w/ 2 dogs I think people should be able to manage w/ their kids.

AH HA HA HA HA!!!!  You're kidding, right?

Nope! I think if people can keep their animals from being a noisy nuisance then parents can do the same. I mean come on, kids have a concept of how loud they are and
its your job as a parent to teach your kids to be considerate of others and that includes watching their noise level. I'm not saying that occasionally being loud is bad but allowing it to go on for an extended period of time is down right rude.

Also just because your kid is a morning person doesnt mean that anyone with in hearing distance has to be just like a night owl doesnt have the right to keep everyone around him awake until all hours of the morning. I dont think anyone here is saying that kids should be in bed or silent during x-x hours but they definatley shouldnt be making an abundance of noise.

I agree with you completely. Of course animals and children aren't the same! But I think its a whole ton easier to teach a child not to scream and yell inside then it is to teach a dog not to bark. You can train the dog to obey you, but children can actually learn and comprehend the WHY behind it. In that respect, I think people who say that its not reasonable for their children to control themselves are not understand their jobs as parents properly.

I also second the fact that one's child is a morning person has no bearing on it being OK for the child to make a rucus while most adults are sleeping. I would say the same thing about adults who are "night people" they should not be up making tons of noise while others are usually asleep.

7am on a weekend is quiet time. Adults worked all week long and woke up early, the weekend is sleep in days and I think the needs of the community to have quiet in the mornings/evenings trumps an out of control kid.

[CocoCamm]

I think its a whole ton easier to teach a child not to scream and yell inside then it is to teach a dog not to bark. You can train the dog to obey you, but children can actually learn and comprehend the WHY behind it.

Exactly my point! Thanks for making it more clear.

[Heavenly]

Alright...first of all when I made my post it was to a "general" you.  But since you all seem fit to direct your post at ME, I will direct my comments to YOU.

You know, some of us like to sleep late without having been to parties. I like to go to bed late in the weekends. I manage not to be noisy after a certain time, so as not to disturb you and your kids, and I hardly think it's too much to ask that you try to do the same with your kids. I do realize, of course, that it's as good as impossible for children to be quiet all the time, but the parents have a responsibility to try and keep the volume down. Again, you (general you) chose to have kids and not be able to sleep late. I haven't made that choice.

My apologies...in my experience those who complain about a child making noise in morning are those who have been up partying.  I do keep the volume down, but I can't cut out all the noise because YOU CHOSE to stay up late.  The only complaint I have ever had about my child making too much noise was from a downstairs neighbor who had kept my 18 month old dd up all night playing Doom (with full volume) under her bedroom and then couldn't understand why she was throwing a tantrum at 8:30 the next morning.  Um...maybe because she's tired beyond what she can handle--I'm doing my best, perhaps you should play Doom in another room or cut the volume.  {By the way, these people were evicted for noise complaints from OTHER tenants}

are there any YMCA's in your area?  If so, a lot of them have tons of fun kids' programs on weekends, where the kids can go to do sports, play games, swim, make crafts, etc., while their parents work out.

No, none in my area. 

Well, when you write about your children's behavior it's only natural for one to believe that it is your children that you are referring to

I was pretty specific that it was a general you.

If you can't go to the park there are places like McDonalds and shopping malls that have play areas for children. I never said that it was easy, only that it was your responsibility.

I don't know of any McDonalds or malls that open at 7:00am in my area.  I don't recall saying that I was taking the easy way out?

Luck had nothing to do with it. It was hard work and planning and deciding to forgo many things in order to have a house. Bottom line is that no one gets a free pass for disturbing people in multi housing because they can't afford a single family home. You adjust your actions to where you live

That is just so insulting on so many levels...

Children can and do need to be taught to speak quietly and to not stomp about. If they walk quietly then you don't have to worry about them moving around. It's harder and more work for the parents, but it can be done. Besides, if they were animals they would learn to behave a lot sooner.

Teaching children respect for others has to start early or you will be fighting an uphill battle all of their lives.

Again...my children have been taught to speak quietly and to not stomp about.  Really don't know where you seem to get the idea that I don't take my parenting responsibly.  However, they are children and are going to forget occasionally when they are excited.  Adults do the same thing, or have we all forgotten.

I agree that you need to teach respect...  (speaking silence)

Whoa....  Who said anything about disciplining (i.e. smacking) the child for making noise?  Or making them sit in a chair all day?

Again...not what I said.  Comments were made that if you can train a dog (who are trained by smacking their noses for misdeeds) then you can train your child.  I was pointing out that you CAN NOT train a child like an animal.  The other comment was made that a child could stay in one place and play (therefore not making running noises) which I likened to sitting in a chair...  Geez, you guys, talk about latching on to words and losing the meaning.

And what's all this about glass houses? Just because someone complains about noisy kids doesn't mean that person is noisy themselves and is being hypocritical.

I find that adults who think they are very quiet...usually have their noisy moments as well.  But because they aren't running around, they don't register that what they are doing is just as noisy.  Children making noise is much easier to put a finger on.  And yes...not all adults who complain about noise are noisy themselves--just like all children aren't, by default, noisy.

Nope! I think if people can keep their animals from being a noisy nuisance then parents can do the same. I mean come on, kids have a concept of how loud they are and
its your job as a parent to teach your kids to be considerate of others and that includes watching their noise level.

You mean dogs that sleep most of the day, or are kept in runs--that don't talk?  Dogs that are age 7 at 1 year, 14 at 2 years, etc.  My two year old is not a teenager...he does not have a concept of how loud he is.  That is why we are teaching him, but it's going to take longer than a 6 week class at obedience school for him to "grasp the concept".  He is not an animal that can have all of its social skills taught to it by the time it reaches its first birthday.  And yes...I raised dogs before I got married so I do have some grasp of what it takes.  Apples to oranges.

I also second the fact that one's child is a morning person has no bearing on it being OK for the child to make a ruckus while most adults are sleeping. I would say the same thing about adults who are "night people" they should not be up making tons of noise while others are usually asleep.

I did not say that because he was a morning person that he got a free ticket to make all the noise he wanted.  I DID say that he was a morning person and got up at 7:00am EVERY DAY including weekends.  I also said that while I could keep him (sleeping) quiet for a few hours...keeping him (sleeping) quiet for 3 hours (10am was quoted as the generally accepted time for weekends) was going to be difficult if not near impossible.  This does NOT mean that he is allowed to scream, jump up and down, and make a loud ruckus.  It means I will not be able to keep him from making noise for 3 hours.  Who said ANYTHING about an out of control child?

Honestly...this is silly.

I've lived in "multi unit" housing since I was married and before children.  I jumped in to this discussion because I was seeing a lot of "noisy children" complaints (yes...these are legitimate and should be addressed) but I wasn't seeing a lot of understanding.  IN MY EXPERIENCE...and I have lived in 4 different "multi unit" buildings in the last 10 years and had over 13 different neighbors in these places.  I have found that "adults" who think they are sooooo quiet--usually aren't.  I have found that people who do not have children do not understand that I can't just MAKE my children stop being children (ie: making a certain amount of noise)--that does not make me an irresponsible parent and your suggestion that I'm shirking my responsibility because Jr. tripped and dropped his bucket of blocks on the floor is ludicrous.  Everyone has their "noise" acceptable level...as pointed out in an earlier post--to some a tissue falling on the floor could be considered noisy...if you aren't used to the noise children make (I'm not talking screaming, pounding, etc) it may seem very loud when in reality it isn't.  Yes...living in "multi unit" housing means keeping within a certain noise level, but it also--by definition--means that there is going to be noise.  I've had more noisy adult neighbors than I have had neighbors with noisy children...

Going to drink a coke now...

edited because the spell check changed a word...oops

 

[wetblanket]

I have found that people who do not have children do not understand that I can't just MAKE my children stop being children (ie: making a certain amount of noise)--that does not make me an irresponsible parent and your suggestion that I'm shirking my responsibility because Jr. tripped and dropped his bucket of blocks on the floor is ludicrous.  Everyone has their "noise" acceptable level...as pointed out in an earlier post--to some a tissue falling on the floor could be considered noisy...if you aren't used to the noise children make (I'm not talking screaming, pounding, etc) it may seem very loud when in reality it isn't. 

I think I understand what you are saying.  A lot of this depends on the context.

E.g. I have upstairs neighbours whose little kids (under 6) play boisterously on the hardwood floors. Every morning and every evening (till 10pm or so) and most of the day on weekends I hear bumps, thumps, running footsteps and toys crashing on the floor more or less constantly.  Earplugs rated for 33 decibels are not enough to drown out the noise.  It's hard to relax under those circumstances, and after months of this, I'm getting very frustrated.

I've asked the tenants to put down rugs.  They refused.

I asked them to give the kids some softer toys to play with.  They refused.

I've asked the tenants if they could keep the noise down after 7pm - not total silence, but taking it down a few notches.  They refused.

I genuinely think that I am a fairly quiet tenant (I'm a single woman with one cat).  I told the upstairs tenants that if I was ever making too much noise to let me know.  So far they haven't complained about my noise.

Where I'm at right now is feeling like these people really DO believe that having kids gives them a free pass to make more noise.  They are forgetting that I have rights too - rights to a reasonable amount of quiet.  Constant noise for hours at a time on a daily basis is not reasonable.  Therefore, the parents are responsible for bringing the noise levels down to a level that is reasonable.  Their kids = their responsibility.  The method they use to achieve reasonable quiet is up to them.

if you aren't used to the noise children make (I'm not talking screaming, pounding, etc) it may seem very loud when in reality it isn't

A statement like this really triggers me.  Here's why:  As a non-parent, I am not obliged to adjust to the noise children make.  Just as a non-dog-owner is not obliged to adjust to barking.  Would it be fair to expect the shift worker next door to me to "adjust" to my habit of playing loud music in the middle of the day when he is trying to sleep?  Absolutely not. My lifestyle shouldn't significantly affect any of my neighbours.

It's interesting to contrast my upstairs neighbours with my across-the-hall neighbours, who have a baby.  I hear their baby cry all the time, as babies do.  But it's never been a problem because usually the baby is quiet again within five minutes or so. (I don't know how they do it!)  So it's no biggie.  It doesn't bother me at all because I know it won't last long.

My downstairs neighbours like to crank up their stereo now and then.  But it's no biggie because it's not that often and it only goes on for a little while.  They just want to rock out for a bit.  So I let it slide.  It's not causing me a lot of grief.

But upstairs.... holy cow!  I don't think these kids ever sit down and play with fingerpaints or look at storybooks or anything like that.  It's just daily pounding.

[NOVA Lady]

My apologies...in my experience those who complain about a child making noise in morning are those who have been up partying.  I do keep the volume down, but I can't cut out all the noise because YOU CHOSE to stay up late.  The only complaint I have ever had about my child making too much noise was from a downstairs neighbor who had kept my 18 month old dd up all night playing Doom (with full volume) under her bedroom and then couldn't understand why she was throwing a tantrum at 8:30 the next morning.  Um...maybe because she's tired beyond what she can handle--I'm doing my best, perhaps you should play Doom in another room or cut the volume.  {By the way, these people were evicted for noise complaints from OTHER tenants}

Well then you must not have a lot of experience with people complaining about noise (which is a good thing!) Me not wanting to hear my neighbors kids screaming and thudding at 7am has nothing to do with partying, it has to do with the fact that its a weekend and I have spent the entire week working and waking up early and the weekend hours are my treat to my sleep deprived body.

As for not being able to cut out noise because someone CHOSE to stay up late, I don't think anyone is saying ALL the noise. But noise that can be heard in the next unit very clearly should not be allowed. And its not impossible to prevent.

Luck had nothing to do with it. It was hard work and planning and deciding to forgo many things in order to have a house. Bottom line is that no one gets a free pass for disturbing people in multi housing because they can't afford a single family home. You adjust your actions to where you live

That is just so insulting on so many levels...

How is that insulting. Why are people who live in single family homes "lucky". Luck plays only a small factor, but the big factors are what were listed by the poster you are quoting. I live in a condo instead of a single family home because I haven't saved the money needed for a home yet, not because I am unlucky!

Whoa....  Who said anything about disciplining (i.e. smacking) the child for making noise?  Or making them sit in a chair all day?

Again...not what I said.  Comments were made that if you can train a dog (who are trained by smacking their noses for misdeeds) then you can train your child.  I was pointing out that you CAN NOT train a child like an animal.  The other comment was made that a child could stay in one place and play (therefore not making running noises) which I likened to sitting in a chair...  Geez, you guys, talk about latching on to words and losing the meaning.

Well the child isn't an animal and in fact its a lot harder to train a dog not to bark inside because the dog cannotn understand what you're saying, it doesn't remember like a child, and it doesn't really understand the underlying reason. Its a parents responsibility to teach a child what "apartment" noise is and outside noise it. And if a parent has an early riser they need to respectful of all the other people living all around them and either keep the child queit or (if they cannot/willnot) take the child out for an AM activity.

Nope! I think if people can keep their animals from being a noisy nuisance then parents can do the same. I mean come on, kids have a concept of how loud they are and
its your job as a parent to teach your kids to be considerate of others and that includes watching their noise level.

You mean dogs that sleep most of the day, or are kept in runs--that don't talk?  Dogs that are age 7 at 1 year, 14 at 2 years, etc.  My two year old is not a teenager...he does not have a concept of how loud he is.  That is why we are teaching him, but it's going to take longer than a 6 week class at obedience school for him to "grasp the concept".  He is not an animal that can have all of its social skills taught to it by the time it reaches its first birthday.  And yes...I raised dogs before I got married so I do have some grasp of what it takes.  Apples to oranges.

Most 2 year olds I know are aware of what indoor/outdoor voices are. I am not talking about a sudden random little squeal I am talking about NOISE of the variety that would anger you if your child were trying to sleep.


I did not say that because he was a morning person that he got a free ticket to make all the noise he wanted.  I DID say that he was a morning person and got up at 7:00am EVERY DAY including weekends.  I also said that while I could keep him (sleeping) quiet for a few hours...keeping him (sleeping) quiet for 3 hours (10am was quoted as the generally accepted time for weekends) was going to be difficult if not near impossible.  This does NOT mean that he is allowed to scream, jump up and down, and make a loud ruckus.  It means I will not be able to keep him from making noise for 3 hours.  Who said ANYTHING about an out of control child?

Maybe the problem here is the type of noise we're talking about. If he's not heard in the next unit then who cares what he's doing. If he's heard in the next unit and waking people up then its an issue. If the type of noise you cannot prevent him from making is of the second variety then action needs to be taken. Futher, I am completely astonished that 3 hours is a long time to entertain a child with books, videos, blocks, coloring or whatever else. I guess we really do live in the fast food/video game society when its considered unreasonable for a child not to be noisey for a few hours at a time.

Honestly...this is silly.

I've lived in "multi unit" housing since I was married and before children.  I jumped in to this discussion because I was seeing a lot of "noisy children" complaints (yes...these are legitimate and should be addressed) but I wasn't seeing a lot of understanding.  IN MY EXPERIENCE...and I have lived in 4 different "multi unit" buildings in the last 10 years and had over 13 different neighbors in these places.  I have found that "adults" who think they are sooooo quiet--usually aren't.  I have found that people who do not have children do not understand that I can't just MAKE my children stop being children (ie: making a certain amount of noise)--that does not make me an irresponsible parent and your suggestion that I'm shirking my responsibility because Jr. tripped and dropped his bucket of blocks on the floor is ludicrous.  Everyone has their "noise" acceptable level...as pointed out in an earlier post--to some a tissue falling on the floor could be considered noisy...if you aren't used to the noise children make (I'm not talking screaming, pounding, etc) it may seem very loud when in reality it isn't.  Yes...living in "multi unit" housing means keeping within a certain noise level, but it also--by definition--means that there is going to be noise.  I've had more noisy adult neighbors than I have had neighbors with noisy children...

Going to drink a coke now...

edited because the spell check changed a word...oops


Sure living in a multi-unit dwelling means there is going to be noise. I think after years of living in situations like that we are all pretty immune to a lot of noises. But the shrieking of a child cuts through anything! Also, while your experience has been with loud adults mine has always been the opposite, that the adults (with jobs to go to in the morning and all) are generally quieter unless they are having a party and will queit right down when asked. Children- well I've lived near many and the loud ones sure do make living somewhere miserable. And if you try to talk to their parents about it? Forget that, its always "Well he's a CHILD".

And I know you think people w/o kids don't understand. But I think people with kids are getting immune to the noise from living with it constantly. Only the parents made the decision to have the child and only they should have to deal with the consequences. We all, kids included, deserve quiet and peaceful enjoyment of our homes.

 

[behindbj]

I was waiting to see how long it took before someone trotted out the "since you don't have kids, you don't understand the noise they make."

Took longer than I thought it would.  Which is good.

People from past boards know by now that this particular statement really really ticks me off.  So I don't have kids - but I do know a whiney, screechy, overly-loud kid when I hear one.  

I also know what normal kid-noise sounds like (as I live in a lovely neighborhood that I enjoy very much).  Kids make different noises than adults (faster, rattling footsteps, the occasional piercing yell, playing with pots and dropping blocks (although, as I am a major klutz, the last couple could also apply to me...)).  These are what they are.

However - I do not think that it's unreasonable to ask that someone remove the pot lids from Junior's hands after 7pm (or not allow him to have them until a reasonable time in the morning - depending on the day of the week).  I don't think anyone has expressed the desire to keep kids tied up until 10:00am on weekends - only that the fingerpaints, soft blocks, stuffed animals and soft shoes be employed (perhaps a play mat of some sort).  The pot lids, tap shoes, wooden blocks and screaming train set are fair game at other times of the day - until a reasonable time in the evening.  Will it take more effot on the parents' part?  Maybe - but welcome to being a parent.  It takes effort on my part to adjust my schedule to not wake Junior with my noisier activities during his naptime.  If parents are expecting folks to keep quiet at certain times for Junior, it needs to go both ways (reasonably, of course.  Anyone who asks for no noise from either party will leave the discussion with my laughter ringing in their ears.).

I am lucky enough to have a neighbor whose daughter attends fair City's School for the Arts and plays a classical instrument.  I love listening to her practice through my open windows in the afternoons.  I doubt I would enjoy it as much if she practiced with her windows open at 11:00pm on a weeknight. Although - maybe I would.  She's very very good.

To me, the person who trots out the "you don't have kids, you don't understand" to explain away their parental duties loses any argument they are having with me.  I'm not saying that anyone here is saying that - because some folks don't know what normal noise is for certain things, or what constitutes normal with kids, etc., but I just can't stand it in general.

behindbj, who lives under the path of the Medivac helicopters for Shock Trauma and understands that the people in the helicopters are having a much worse time dealing with their current situation than I am dealing with the noise (which, actually, I don't hear any more)...  

[Slartibartfast]

As a non-parent, I am not obliged to adjust to the noise children make.  Just as a non-dog-owner is not obliged to adjust to barking.  Would it be fair to expect the shift worker next door to me to "adjust" to my habit of playing loud music in the middle of the day when he is trying to sleep?  Absolutely not. My lifestyle shouldn't significantly affect any of my neighbours.

I disagree.  Yes, the shift worker should "adjust" to your loud music in the middle of the day - he *chose* to live in multi-family housing, and shouldn't be able to dictate that everyone must stay silent because his idea of "reasonable" hours for noise cover the times the rest of the apartment complex doesn't.  And you should "adjust" to the noise children or dogs make, during daylight hours, because you also *chose* to live in multi-family housing.  It would certainly be within your rights to ask the children's parents to keep it down, just as it would be fine for the shift worker to tell you his situation and ask you to keep your music down, but you are not obligated to "quiet time" unless it is stated in your lease.

Adults make unavoidable noise, too - vacuuming, doing laundry, and showering are all things that can disturb neighbors because they make a lot of noise when you share walls.  When I was in a shared living area (dorm, and later, apartment), I tried to keep my noisy activities to middle-of-the-day times - but I am not responsible for someone else's schedule.  If you stay up all night studying and try to sleep all afternoon, my vacuum may wake you up and that's not my problem.

Right now, I'm in a small house in a crunched-together neighborhood. My neighbor leaves his back door open so his dogs can charge into his (fenced) backyard anytime.  If I let my dog out, they bark at each other.  Most of the time I only let him out during daylight hours when barking won't bother anyone, but again, if I want to let him out to pee at midnight once in a while, our neighbors will have to live with the reality of living in a squished-together neighborhood.  There will be barking. 

I am flabbergasted that some people here feel two-year-olds can be silent for three hours - have you *ever* been around a two-year-old who was quiet for that long and wasn't dead, mute, or asleep?  A five-year-old, maybe (and probably only if you plop them in front of a TV) - but not a two-year-old.  Kids *do* learn the rules, and they also forget the rules sometimes.  It's part of learning.