Author Topic: First date paying for dinner question.  (Read 26464 times)

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missmolly

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Re: First date paying for dinner question.
« Reply #75 on: March 26, 2012, 11:11:24 PM »
This just seems weird to me! They were at her house playing video games, and she was the one who wanted to eat, and..expected him to pay for her dinner..? I don't get it. It almost seems, from an outside point of view, that she was trying to trick him into buying her food. I find it just as bizarre if I were to be out on a date and decide I really needed some new pants, we were going to go to the store, and...oh, he was paying for my jeans, right?

Believe it or not, I've seen this happen, back when I was in high school.  Except it wasn't jeans, it was a new purse. 

I just happened to run into a casual friend while he was on a date (I think it was the 2nd, but might have been 1st) at the mall.   I got in line behind them at the counter and he introduced her to me, saying that they had some time to kill before their movie and so she wanted to check out the sale.  She plopped the purse on the counter and the cashier rang her up.  And then she just looked at him expectantly.  And he just sort of stood their awkwardly while the cashier looked back and forth at them.  I busied myself looking through the contacts in my cell phone, trying really hard not to pay attention to them.  And then she "ahemed" and he says, "umm, are you going to get your wallet out?"  and she replied with "You're buying it for me. We're on a date!"

Out of the corner of my eye I saw him look at me for help.  I'm ashamed to say I just kept staring at my phone pretending not to see or hear (I know, horrible - but I was 16, and just as perplexed as he was! Plus, what does a third party say in that situation?).  He ended up handing over $65 for her new purse. As reference, $65 was probably about 10 hours worth of work for him (HS student, fast food joint)!



I find Sarah incredibly rude and presumptuous.  But I think her date was lucky to discover her true colors so soon.
Please tell me your friend didn't see her after the purse incident.
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Moray

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Re: First date paying for dinner question.
« Reply #76 on: March 26, 2012, 11:44:47 PM »
*snipped for length*
Sara is not a gold digger, a gimmie pig or a user.I have known her a long time and can say that with certainty.

She thinks men should pay for the first date and she thinks dinner is or should be included in that. She has no problem paying or splitting dates/dinners afterwards

Sio, she may not try to be a golddigger, gimme pig or user with you but the behavior she engaged in with Jon is undeniably using behavior.

It's fine that she thinks all these things. I think we can all agree that having standards for how you want to be treated is great, but for her to assume that every guy out there is automatically on the same (very rigid) page is odd and frankly unrealistic. As such a devoted friend, I would encourage her to be more specific in the future and not to behave so rudely to people who aren't able to read her mind regarding her expectations for the first date. Obviously, you don't need to cite some etiquette site as a reference for this. Everything we've said is common sense and you should feel confident bringing it up without printing up a page or 6 of responses.

Anything weird that happened after that does not negate the fact that she behaved terribly.
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CluelessBride

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Re: First date paying for dinner question.
« Reply #77 on: March 27, 2012, 12:00:37 AM »
This just seems weird to me! They were at her house playing video games, and she was the one who wanted to eat, and..expected him to pay for her dinner..? I don't get it. It almost seems, from an outside point of view, that she was trying to trick him into buying her food. I find it just as bizarre if I were to be out on a date and decide I really needed some new pants, we were going to go to the store, and...oh, he was paying for my jeans, right?

Believe it or not, I've seen this happen, back when I was in high school.  Except it wasn't jeans, it was a new purse. 

I just happened to run into a casual friend while he was on a date (I think it was the 2nd, but might have been 1st) at the mall.   I got in line behind them at the counter and he introduced her to me, saying that they had some time to kill before their movie and so she wanted to check out the sale.  She plopped the purse on the counter and the cashier rang her up.  And then she just looked at him expectantly.  And he just sort of stood their awkwardly while the cashier looked back and forth at them.  I busied myself looking through the contacts in my cell phone, trying really hard not to pay attention to them.  And then she "ahemed" and he says, "umm, are you going to get your wallet out?"  and she replied with "You're buying it for me. We're on a date!"

Out of the corner of my eye I saw him look at me for help.  I'm ashamed to say I just kept staring at my phone pretending not to see or hear (I know, horrible - but I was 16, and just as perplexed as he was! Plus, what does a third party say in that situation?).  He ended up handing over $65 for her new purse. As reference, $65 was probably about 10 hours worth of work for him (HS student, fast food joint)!



I find Sarah incredibly rude and presumptuous.  But I think her date was lucky to discover her true colors so soon.
Please tell me your friend didn't see her after the purse incident.

I wish I could... Unfortunately they dated off and on for a few years and ended up getting married.  The marriage only lasted about a year.

*snipped for length*
Sara is not a gold digger, a gimmie pig or a user.I have known her a long time and can say that with certainty.

She thinks men should pay for the first date and she thinks dinner is or should be included in that. She has no problem paying or splitting dates/dinners afterwards

Sio, she may not try to be a golddigger, gimme pig or user with you but the behavior she engaged in with Jon is undeniably using behavior.

It's fine that she thinks all these things. I think we can all agree that having standards for how you want to be treated is great, but for her to assume that every guy out there is automatically on the same (very rigid) page is odd and frankly unrealistic. As such a devoted friend, I would encourage her to be more specific in the future and not to behave so rudely to people who aren't able to read her mind regarding her expectations for the first date. Obviously, you don't need to cite some etiquette site as a reference for this. Everything we've said is common sense and you should feel confident bringing it up without printing up a page or 6 of responses.

Anything weird that happened after that does not negate the fact that she behaved terribly.

I almost wonder if her behavior might have *caused* the weirdness.  I mean, I don't know what weirdness means in this case, but I could see some (albeit not incredibly mature) guy saying "This stupid woman expected me to pay for her (not our) dinner?! I'll show her!  Look, I can be a walrus if I put straws up my nose!"

Moray

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Re: First date paying for dinner question.
« Reply #78 on: March 27, 2012, 12:03:53 AM »
*pfft* Come on, Cluelessbride, everyone knows that if you're going to pretend to be a walrus, you put staws under your upper lip. Putting them in your nose is just silly.  :D
Utah

buvezdevin

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Re: First date paying for dinner question.
« Reply #79 on: March 27, 2012, 12:26:52 AM »
*snipped for length*
Sara is not a gold digger, a gimmie pig or a user.I have known her a long time and can say that with certainty.

She thinks men should pay for the first date and she thinks dinner is or should be included in that. She has no problem paying or splitting dates/dinners afterwards

Sio, she may not try to be a golddigger, gimme pig or user with you but the behavior she engaged in with Jon is undeniably using behavior.

It's fine that she thinks all these things. I think we can all agree that having standards for how you want to be treated is great, but for her to assume that every guy out there is automatically on the same (very rigid) page is odd and frankly unrealistic. As such a devoted friend, I would encourage her to be more specific in the future and not to behave so rudely to people who aren't able to read her mind regarding her expectations for the first date. Obviously, you don't need to cite some etiquette site as a reference for this. Everything we've said is common sense and you should feel confident bringing it up without printing up a page or 6 of responses.

Anything weird that happened after that does not negate the fact that she behaved terribly.

I agree in most parts with this, but if the responses to the question are obviously common sense to OP, I don't know why the question would have been posed.  While I don't suggest in any way that OP print, or otherwise reference this thread to her friend, I am genuinely curious if the responses and consistency of same do give OP comfort in offering suggestions to her friend.
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Allyson

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Re: First date paying for dinner question.
« Reply #80 on: March 27, 2012, 02:43:06 AM »
I think it's a good thing to know that her assumptions aren't everyone's. I mean, she's not terrible for thinking that the male person will always pay on a date if that's how she was raised and taught...but since a lot of people *don't* see it that way, it's good if she knows that her way isn't the only correct way. Then she can decide if she wants to give people with other 'ways' a chance, or if this is a dealbreaker for her. Either is fine, but in the latter case, she'll know that since it isn't an automatic expectation, she should state that.

And, I still think it comes off as ungracious to get someone to pay for your dinner when they aren't eating, regardless of her views on gender roles. I don't mean to criticize people with more rigid views on gender roles on dates--it's not my way, but it works for tons of people. But, I don't think it's very nice to think that a guy who doesn't subscribe to that view is a lesser or cheap person. He might not be the right match for some people but I don't think it's rude or bad date behaviour in any way.

LifeOnPluto

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Re: First date paying for dinner question.
« Reply #81 on: March 27, 2012, 03:33:28 AM »
It seems Sara holds a genuine belief that "When on a date, a gentleman should always offer to pay for anything a lady might consume or purchase, even if he is not partaking himself."

I am baffled as to how she arrived at this belief (in this day and age) but I guess that's beside the point. OP, I know you said you weren't going to show this thread to Sara, but I think it would be a kindness to let her know that this belief of hers is not shared by most people, and will probably severely curtail her chances of success with dates. Alternatively, as other posters have suggested, Sara should make this belief upfront (like, on her dating profile) so her dates don't get put in uncomfortable positions.

Bibliophile

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Re: First date paying for dinner question.
« Reply #82 on: March 27, 2012, 09:28:52 AM »
It seems Sara holds a genuine belief that "When on a date, a gentleman should always offer to pay for anything a lady might consume or purchase, even if he is not partaking himself."

I am baffled as to how she arrived at this belief (in this day and age) but I guess that's beside the point. OP, I know you said you weren't going to show this thread to Sara, but I think it would be a kindness to let her know that this belief of hers is not shared by most people, and will probably severely curtail her chances of success with dates. Alternatively, as other posters have suggested, Sara should make this belief upfront (like, on her dating profile) so her dates don't get put in uncomfortable positions.

POD.  As you said she's not a gimmie pig, but this is certainly dating gimmie pig behavior.  It might not show itself in other areas of her life, just in dating.

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shhh its me

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Re: First date paying for dinner question.
« Reply #83 on: March 27, 2012, 11:34:40 AM »
It seems Sara holds a genuine belief that "When on a date, a gentleman should always offer to pay for anything a lady might consume or purchase, even if he is not partaking himself."

I am baffled as to how she arrived at this belief (in this day and age) but I guess that's beside the point. OP, I know you said you weren't going to show this thread to Sara, but I think it would be a kindness to let her know that this belief of hers is not shared by most people, and will probably severely curtail her chances of success with dates. Alternatively, as other posters have suggested, Sara should make this belief upfront (like, on her dating profile) so her dates don't get put in uncomfortable positions.


I don't even think that's where she went wrong.  If someone invited her for coffee and dessert as a first date and she orders a coffee, an app, a meal and dessert she'd still be as wrong, even if she paid  for it.   But If invited for ice cream and her decided "hey I only want a juice "  she can still order ice cream and be appropriate.   I think she voilated 2 rules she greatly exceeded the invitation and since it was her home she was the host , he could not invite himself to her home even if it was his idea.  Which I also think is a terrible place to met someone from online the first time.

 PS  I do still think the inviter pays is the rule but with on-line dating I would be prepaired for my date to think it's dutch treat every time.

WillyNilly

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Re: First date paying for dinner question.
« Reply #84 on: March 27, 2012, 11:57:50 AM »
It seems Sara holds a genuine belief that "When on a date, a gentleman should always offer to pay for anything a lady might consume or purchase, even if he is not partaking himself."

I am baffled as to how she arrived at this belief (in this day and age) but I guess that's beside the point. OP, I know you said you weren't going to show this thread to Sara, but I think it would be a kindness to let her know that this belief of hers is not shared by most people, and will probably severely curtail her chances of success with dates. Alternatively, as other posters have suggested, Sara should make this belief upfront (like, on her dating profile) so her dates don't get put in uncomfortable positions.

I think the bolded is a rather interesting assumption.  Lots of people - men and women - in this day and age, in the same general age range as Sara (30's) subscribe to this belief.  Its extraordinarily common.  In fact when I didn't date with perimeters that included being hosted for dinner I had terrible dating experiences and all my friends, male and female alike, essentially told me this was a huge part of my problem (I'm in my mid-30's).  And when I changed my standards to expecting the guy to buy me dinner the caliber of my dating partners increased significantly, to the point where I had previously always been in the going-nowhere deadbeat relationship to now I'm engaged (and all my friends who insisted on having the guy buy them dinner way back in their 20's are happily married for several years now).

Sara's problem isn't with her expectation.  Sara's problem is with her communication and execution.

Sara should put in her dating profile something along the lines of "interested in serious dating only" and "I prefer more traditional dating methods".  When asked on a date Sara should clarify "will we be having dinner as well?" or if clearly asked on a date that doesn't include dinner she can decline politely with "actually I prefer a more traditional first date that includes a meal".

rashea

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Re: First date paying for dinner question.
« Reply #85 on: March 27, 2012, 12:22:30 PM »
I think it used to be more common that a first date would include a dinner. But it also used to be more common that you would know the person pretty well.

Sara needs to change her expectations now that she's dating online. Online dates often start with just one drink, or coffee/tea. That's pretty common for a first date. My preference was always to grab tea, and then go for a walk. It gave us something to do, and moving helped with any awkwardness. Plus, it was cheap and easy to leave early, or extend (some did extend to a dinner).
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Re: First date paying for dinner question.
« Reply #86 on: March 27, 2012, 12:23:19 PM »
I find this topic quite interesting.  I will make several observations here.

I do believe Sara's belief that dinner is required on any outing is wrong.  Even from an "old fashioned" perspective, it was entirely "proper" for a gentleman in 1910 to take a lady out to a social event and not go to a meal.  In fact, getting a formal meal might have been improper.  It would, however, have been expected that he would pay for entrance fees and such, et cetera.  Dinner would only be included if specified, but a "date" would have been more likely to encompass going to an amusement park and maybe hot dogs, or a movie and ice cream.  Not a dinner at Delmonico's unless the lady was notoriously 'fast'!

This being said, even if Sara expected to receive a meal, she was wrong in picking an expensive place.  Once she knew he hadn't eaten and she was initiating the process, she should have selected a cheaper place.  If she'd said "I haven't eaten, let's go to Fast Food Restaurant" this might have gone differently.

As others have mentioned, what if Jon had said "Let's meet for coffee" -- which is the standard euphemism for "How about a date?"  Would she really have assumed he owed her an entire meal?  If he'd said "Let's meet for coffee Saturday morning" would that require breakfast?  That just baffles me.  Is there a cultural or social aspect to this?  Is she from a "social class" where even the young would have plenty of spending pocket money?

And a somewhat-related note -- it is improper for a gentleman to buy a lady articles of clothing.  Something like a handkerchief is pushing it.  Something like jeans or a purse would have been beyond the pale and might have implied the woman was something of a dollymop.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2012, 12:42:51 PM by Decimus »

Twik

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Re: First date paying for dinner question.
« Reply #87 on: March 27, 2012, 12:35:06 PM »
If Sara believes that her date is obligated to buy her dinner, she should realize that this puts an obligation on her. That is to not behave as if her date's wallet is her own. That's where "the middle of the menu" idea comes from. And if her date is the host, then *he* is the one who picks the restaurant, etc. Not her. She cannot expect that saying, "Let's eat at Chez Fancy, and I want the caviar!", and leaving him to pay, is fair to her date.

Behaving otherwise, by expecting her date to be happy buying her anything her heart desires, is classic gold-digging.

Does she actually believe that men have that much more disposable income than she does? Or is she only interested in them if they do?
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SiotehCat

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Re: First date paying for dinner question.
« Reply #88 on: March 27, 2012, 04:25:48 PM »
If Sara believes that her date is obligated to buy her dinner, she should realize that this puts an obligation on her. That is to not behave as if her date's wallet is her own. That's where "the middle of the menu" idea comes from. And if her date is the host, then *he* is the one who picks the restaurant, etc. Not her. She cannot expect that saying, "Let's eat at Chez Fancy, and I want the caviar!", and leaving him to pay, is fair to her date.

Behaving otherwise, by expecting her date to be happy buying her anything her heart desires, is classic gold-digging.

Does she actually believe that men have that much more disposable income than she does? Or is she only interested in them if they do?

In her defensive, she ordered from the cheaper side of the menu. A pasta dish with a beer. Total came out to close to $20. I don't think that is expensive.

Your last question made me chuckle a little, because it's more in line with my feelings than with hers. She can look past a lot if she thinks the guy is physically attractive. We joke all the time about how I need to see pay stubs and credit reports before agreeing to any dates.

Good thing my DH didn't mind.

CluelessBride

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Re: First date paying for dinner question.
« Reply #89 on: March 27, 2012, 04:36:17 PM »
I don't know.  It's true that $20 doesn't seem exorbitant for a meal, but it's not cheap.  And there's a huge difference in spending $40 on a meal for 2 and giving someone $20 (albeit for a meal) on a first date.  He wasn't eating. He ordered water.  She didn't just order soda, she ordered alcohol. She chose a sit down place where a cheap meal for one was going to cost $20 as opposed to a fast food joint or sandwich shop. 

The guy was incredibly indulgent to sit and eat with her.  If it had been me, when she asked if I was going to pay I'd probably have just gotten up and left. 

DH and I met through online dating.  We didn't do dinner on the first date.  We did coffee (which led to a movie and mall-walking on the same date). But he made it clear that he wanted to pay for it before we'd even met.  And I made it clear that he could pay for the first date, but that if we continued to see each other after that I was uncomfortable with him paying all the time.  I told him that we could go dutch or we could alternate.  The up front approach was really nice because it meant that expectations were clear.