Author Topic: Paying compliments is rude?  (Read 22482 times)

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Teenyweeny

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Re: Paying compliments is rude?
« Reply #90 on: May 29, 2012, 12:15:52 PM »
I liked the cartoon and it described how I have always viewed the friend zone -- it's not that the men (or women) are jerks or that they are too shy, it is that the object of their affection does not have romantic interest in them.  It says nothing "bad" about the person in the "friend zone," and does not mean that a person is in the "friend zone" for every other person, just this one.  It simply means that an object of one's affection enjoys the "friend zoned" person as a friend but does not see them as a romantic interest, and no amount of overcoming shyness or being a jerk will change that, in my experience.

Yes, there is that friend zone, too.  I guess that is more how I see it, too, it's just that my friends tend to be in it because they're shy and won't tell the girl that they like her.

Ah, but that's a different thing. I have no problem with people who are too shy to tell the object of their affections how they feel.

However, I do have a problem with the concept of the 'friend zone' in general. It's almost always used as, "you have been friend zoned", or "you're in her friend zone" (N.B: I have only ever heard about the 'friend zone' from hetero males, although perhaps there are other gender/orientation examples out there).

There's a strong implication there that the fact that the would-be suitor isn't more than a friend is the fault of the OTHER person (it is after all THEIR friend zone), or that the would-be suitor is owed 'more' because they are so nice, and kind, and the object of their affections is being in some way mean. That just isn't cool.

If the 'friend zone' was re-dubbed the 'bashful zone', I could get behind that. The fact that it isn't called that (or something similar), is a tip-off (to me, at least) that the concept is really about blaming the crush.



Garden Goblin

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Re: Paying compliments is rude?
« Reply #91 on: May 29, 2012, 12:23:47 PM »
Ha, my favourite quote about the 'friend zone' is, "Women aren't just machines you put kindness coins into until sex falls out." I find the concepts of 'friend zone' and 'nice guy' insidious. They seem jovial, but scratch the surface and you uncover a lot of REALLY twisted ideas about what a woman 'owes' a man.

Exactly. 

To often, I see it get borderline (it not leaping past the border) stalker-ish.  The whole 'I like her but its on her to notice not on me to say something' thing can get disturbing, especially when it combines with other attitudes towards women.  Sometimes it's like the 'I paid for dinner so now you owe me sex' mentality.

In this cartoon, he pulls the 'but he doesn't respect you' line, and the point of that is he doesn't actually respect her either.  Her feelings and desires are secondary to his, and the only reason he is being her friend at all is that he hopes she'll decide she can't do better than him and settle.  That's not respect.  And that's not even friendship, which is my other problem with the term 'friend zone'.  If your only reason for maintaining the relationship is a desire to one day get into someone's pants, you aren't their friend.

And as a girl who has had a lot of guy friends, it hurts terribly when you discover the person you've been thinking of as a friend for years just wanted in your pants and as soon as he finally got it through his skull that wasn't going to happen, he threw the friendship back in your face.  Especially when you later learn he did some things to sabotage your other relationships to ensure you were 'available' for him.

So yeah, in my experience, guys who talk about how bad it is to be in the 'friend zone' and worse, talk about how mean women are to put them in the 'friend zone', show a remarkable tendency towards being creeps.

Any one I've met in the friend zone is there because he's too shy, not because he has twisted ideas about women.

Could be you are operating under a different definition of 'friend zone' than we are.

Mental Magpie

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Re: Paying compliments is rude?
« Reply #92 on: May 29, 2012, 12:40:47 PM »
I realize that you said that this was in your experience, but what you said was inflammatory and quite rude, IMO, and makes a lot of assumptions about people who would talk about the "friend zone".

I am sorry you feel that way. 

I find the friend zone tends to be this - http://xkcd.com/513/

Rather than a simple matter of it just taking some time to establish attraction.  Also, as I pointed out, it is the people who talk about it like it is a bad thing that I am referring too; people who act like being just friends with someone is some sort of cruel torture when they 'obviously' deserve romantic attention from their preferred target.

I get a totally different vibe from that comic than what I think you do.  That is the friend zone to me, too, but it's not that he deserves anything.  If he would just tell her her liked her, maybe he wouldn't be in the friend zone anymore or he would find she doesn't reciprocate and we wouldn't do everything a boyfriend does with none of the return (yes, good friends do that stuff, too, but when there is a longing for the other person, that changes things).  To me, the friend zone IS a bad thing when you want more than that but are too shy to say anything.  Like my examples with Dark Boyfriend and me.  We were just friends forever, wanting to move out of the friend zone, but both too shy to do so. 

I do know what you're talking about, though; I've definitely heard guys say that they deserve the romantic attention but aren't getting it because of her, not because of something he's doing wrong.  However, I don't think I've ever heard them refer to being in the friend zone.  I guess what I'm saying is to me, the friend zone is a sad place, where what I'm reading from you is that it is an angry place.  We definitely see it differently, though.

Yes, as I noted in the bolded.
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TurtleDove

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Re: Paying compliments is rude?
« Reply #93 on: May 29, 2012, 12:47:12 PM »
Ah, but that's a different thing. I have no problem with people who are too shy to tell the object of their affections how they feel.

However, I do have a problem with the concept of the 'friend zone' in general. It's almost always used as, "you have been friend zoned", or "you're in her friend zone" (N.B: I have only ever heard about the 'friend zone' from hetero males, although perhaps there are other gender/orientation examples out there).

There's a strong implication there that the fact that the would-be suitor isn't more than a friend is the fault of the OTHER person (it is after all THEIR friend zone), or that the would-be suitor is owed 'more' because they are so nice, and kind, and the object of their affections is being in some way mean. That just isn't cool.
If the 'friend zone' was re-dubbed the 'bashful zone', I could get behind that. The fact that it isn't called that (or something similar), is a tip-off (to me, at least) that the concept is really about blaming the crush.

I have never heard the bolded.  In my experience, "friend zoning" says nothing about either party, and certainly places blame on neither.  It is a simply fact that one person does not view the other as a romantic partner, but values the friendship.  Actually, friend zoning, to me, indicates a deep respect for another person - being honest that "I care about you, but I don't like you like that" is far better than stringing someone along or cutting off all contact if there is a friendship there.

WillyNilly

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Re: Paying compliments is rude?
« Reply #94 on: May 29, 2012, 12:48:37 PM »
Dark, what you are talking about is not as I (or apparently others) understand the "friend zone" to be. The "friend zone" is when you are absolutely off your crushes radar as even being opposite sex (or sex attracted to). You and Dark Boyfriend were never in each oher's "friend zone" by the way you describe things. You were merely shy friends. If you had a crush on him, no matter how secret, he was *not* in your "friend zone" he was in your "secret unrequited crush" zone. If you had a crush on him you probably didn't change shirts in front of him, or talk to him about your boyfriends, or try to set him up with other girls. And if you were in his "friend zone" he wouldn't really have considered you datable, in fact probably wouldn't have even seen you as 'a girl' but rather merely as sexless for all intents and purposes.

The "friend zone" implies the person in it is seen as undatable by the object of their desire. Being stuck a friendship rut out of shyness is not the common or understood definition of the "friend zone"; the friend zone is being stuck in a frienship rut becauseyour friend can't see you as being anything other then a friend.

Teenyweeny

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Re: Paying compliments is rude?
« Reply #95 on: May 29, 2012, 12:53:54 PM »
Ah, but that's a different thing. I have no problem with people who are too shy to tell the object of their affections how they feel.

However, I do have a problem with the concept of the 'friend zone' in general. It's almost always used as, "you have been friend zoned", or "you're in her friend zone" (N.B: I have only ever heard about the 'friend zone' from hetero males, although perhaps there are other gender/orientation examples out there).

There's a strong implication there that the fact that the would-be suitor isn't more than a friend is the fault of the OTHER person (it is after all THEIR friend zone), or that the would-be suitor is owed 'more' because they are so nice, and kind, and the object of their affections is being in some way mean. That just isn't cool.
If the 'friend zone' was re-dubbed the 'bashful zone', I could get behind that. The fact that it isn't called that (or something similar), is a tip-off (to me, at least) that the concept is really about blaming the crush.

I have never heard the bolded.  In my experience, "friend zoning" says nothing about either party, and certainly places blame on neither.  It is a simply fact that one person does not view the other as a romantic partner, but values the friendship.  Actually, friend zoning, to me, indicates a deep respect for another person - being honest that "I care about you, but I don't like you like that" is far better than stringing someone along or cutting off all contact if there is a friendship there.

Ah, well, I think we maybe have different definitions of the 'friend zone' then. What you are describing would be (to me) a friendship, albeit one in which one of the parties might carry a torch for the other. Person A has indicated their feelings to person B, person B has said, "sorry, I don't feel the same, but I want us to still be friends". It's all good.

However, the whole essence of the friend zone (IME) is that the crush doesn't know that they are desired by the other person (and doesn't desire them, seeing them as a 'brother' or 'sister', and absolutely not a romantic prospect). Meanwhile the admirer stays waiting in the 'friend zone', trying to think of a way to become more than a friend. A kind of relationship purgatory, if you will  :D



Mental Magpie

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Re: Paying compliments is rude?
« Reply #96 on: May 29, 2012, 01:08:30 PM »
Dark, what you are talking about is not as I (or apparently others) understand the "friend zone" to be. The "friend zone" is when you are absolutely off your crushes radar as even being opposite sex (or sex attracted to). You and Dark Boyfriend were never in each oher's "friend zone" by the way you describe things. You were merely shy friends. If you had a crush on him, no matter how secret, he was *not* in your "friend zone" he was in your "secret unrequited crush" zone. If you had a crush on him you probably didn't change shirts in front of him, or talk to him about your boyfriends, or try to set him up with other girls. And if you were in his "friend zone" he wouldn't really have considered you datable, in fact probably wouldn't have even seen you as 'a girl' but rather merely as sexless for all intents and purposes.

The "friend zone" implies the person in it is seen as undatable by the object of their desire. Being stuck a friendship rut out of shyness is not the common or understood definition of the "friend zone"; the friend zone is being stuck in a frienship rut becauseyour friend can't see you as being anything other then a friend.

He thought he was in my friend zone, I thought I was in his friend zone; it was not that I thought he was in my friend zone nor that he thought I was in his.  I thought he didn't like me back, he thought I didn't like him back. 
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TurtleDove

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Re: Paying compliments is rude?
« Reply #97 on: May 29, 2012, 01:10:45 PM »
However, the whole essence of the friend zone (IME) is that the crush doesn't know that they are desired by the other person (and doesn't desire them, seeing them as a 'brother' or 'sister', and absolutely not a romantic prospect). Meanwhile the admirer stays waiting in the 'friend zone', trying to think of a way to become more than a friend. A kind of relationship purgatory, if you will  :D.

Ah.  Under that definition, it sounds awful!  And under that definition, I would place blame squarely on the person in the "friend zone." 

WillyNilly

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Re: Paying compliments is rude?
« Reply #98 on: May 29, 2012, 01:26:09 PM »
Dark, what you are talking about is not as I (or apparently others) understand the "friend zone" to be. The "friend zone" is when you are absolutely off your crushes radar as even being opposite sex (or sex attracted to). You and Dark Boyfriend were never in each oher's "friend zone" by the way you describe things. You were merely shy friends. If you had a crush on him, no matter how secret, he was *not* in your "friend zone" he was in your "secret unrequited crush" zone. If you had a crush on him you probably didn't change shirts in front of him, or talk to him about your boyfriends, or try to set him up with other girls. And if you were in his "friend zone" he wouldn't really have considered you datable, in fact probably wouldn't have even seen you as 'a girl' but rather merely as sexless for all intents and purposes.

The "friend zone" implies the person in it is seen as undatable by the object of their desire. Being stuck a friendship rut out of shyness is not the common or understood definition of the "friend zone"; the friend zone is being stuck in a frienship rut becauseyour friend can't see you as being anything other then a friend.

He thought he was in my friend zone, I thought I was in his friend zone; it was not that I thought he was in my friend zone nor that he thought I was in his.  I thought he didn't like me back, he thought I didn't like him back.

Right you weren't actually in each others friend zones.  That's my point.  Describing what you and Dark Boyfriend had/went through/experienced as "the friend zone" is incorrect.  Neither of you "zoned" the other, you just each  incorrectly assumed the other had.  But just because you assumed the friend zone doesn't mean it happened.  You have repeatedly cited your experience as an example of the "friend zone", but it wasn't.  What you two were stuck in was the "shy zone".  Its close in emotion to the friend zone but it is not the same thing.  If you had been in his friend zone, you probably still would be, and vice versa.

Reason

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Re: Paying compliments is rude?
« Reply #99 on: May 29, 2012, 01:37:26 PM »
The way I used friend zone, actually reflects badly on the man. It's when a man really likes a woman and wants to pursue a romantic relationship with her, but instead of telling her that directly and giving her a chance to refuse or accept his advances, he feigns romantic disinterest and instead attempts to befriend her in the hopes that she will someday fall for him in a moment of weakness. (which is how I saw that comic as well)

I just didn't know there were so many different definitions for it.


Mental Magpie

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Re: Paying compliments is rude?
« Reply #100 on: May 29, 2012, 01:39:15 PM »
Dark, what you are talking about is not as I (or apparently others) understand the "friend zone" to be. The "friend zone" is when you are absolutely off your crushes radar as even being opposite sex (or sex attracted to). You and Dark Boyfriend were never in each oher's "friend zone" by the way you describe things. You were merely shy friends. If you had a crush on him, no matter how secret, he was *not* in your "friend zone" he was in your "secret unrequited crush" zone. If you had a crush on him you probably didn't change shirts in front of him, or talk to him about your boyfriends, or try to set him up with other girls. And if you were in his "friend zone" he wouldn't really have considered you datable, in fact probably wouldn't have even seen you as 'a girl' but rather merely as sexless for all intents and purposes.

The "friend zone" implies the person in it is seen as undatable by the object of their desire. Being stuck a friendship rut out of shyness is not the common or understood definition of the "friend zone"; the friend zone is being stuck in a frienship rut becauseyour friend can't see you as being anything other then a friend.

He thought he was in my friend zone, I thought I was in his friend zone; it was not that I thought he was in my friend zone nor that he thought I was in his.  I thought he didn't like me back, he thought I didn't like him back.

Right you weren't actually in each others friend zones.  That's my point.  Describing what you and Dark Boyfriend had/went through/experienced as "the friend zone" is incorrect.  Neither of you "zoned" the other, you just each  incorrectly assumed the other had.  But just because you assumed the friend zone doesn't mean it happened.  You have repeatedly cited your experience as an example of the "friend zone", but it wasn't.  What you two were stuck in was the "shy zone".  Its close in emotion to the friend zone but it is not the same thing.  If you had been in his friend zone, you probably still would be, and vice versa.

Under your definition.

7 years of thinking I would never date him and would only ever be his friend is the epitome of being in a friend zone under my definition.  I have asked people on my Facebook what their definitions of friend zone are, and most of them agree with me.  There are apparently differing ideas of friend zone that run in different circles.
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Winterlight

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Re: Paying compliments is rude?
« Reply #101 on: May 29, 2012, 01:44:31 PM »
Reason, that's how I use the term too.

Here's a classic Nice Guy description of it:

Love-shys are sensitive people. They can get very enamored with those they fall for, but tragically, the objects of their affection don't usually like them back. Love-shys are often treated with the phrases "oh, you're such a nice guy, but I don't see you that way," or "sorry, I have a boyfriend" or the classic "I wouldn't want to ruin our friendship." The unaware, naive guy will stay stuck to the girl as a satellite, or "friend" if you will, in the vain hope that she will change her mind. Meanwhile, the girl has several relationships with other guys, and relays her sob stories to the friendzoned guy while giving him no sex.

So, she's told him she's not interested and he doesn't quietly end the relationship or look elsewhere, but instead hangs around like a leech pretending to be just a friend. Also note the ending- like he's owed sex for being a "friend." 

http://www.love-shy.com/faq#friendzone

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sweetonsno

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Re: Paying compliments is rude?
« Reply #102 on: May 29, 2012, 02:05:58 PM »
Reason, that's how I use the term too.

Here's a classic Nice Guy description of it:

Love-shys are sensitive people. They can get very enamored with those they fall for, but tragically, the objects of their affection don't usually like them back. Love-shys are often treated with the phrases "oh, you're such a nice guy, but I don't see you that way," or "sorry, I have a boyfriend" or the classic "I wouldn't want to ruin our friendship." The unaware, naive guy will stay stuck to the girl as a satellite, or "friend" if you will, in the vain hope that she will change her mind. Meanwhile, the girl has several relationships with other guys, and relays her sob stories to the friendzoned guy while giving him no sex.

So, she's told him she's not interested and he doesn't quietly end the relationship or look elsewhere, but instead hangs around like a leech pretending to be just a friend. Also note the ending- like he's owed sex for being a "friend." 

http://www.love-shy.com/faq#friendzone

Have a strong stomach- the woman hate is strong with this lot.

Blech. That's exactly the type I was thinking of, too. It's incredibly frustrating and painful to want a relationship with someone who isn't interested (I know, I've been there). However, I don't think it is fair to blame someone for not wanting to be with you, let alone resenting them for it. If you're not getting what you want out of a relationship, then leave the relationship.

Figgie

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Re: Paying compliments is rude?
« Reply #103 on: May 29, 2012, 02:16:13 PM »
I try to compliment people when I notice something that appears to be important to them.  Which means that if I am standing in line waiting and the woman next to me has a gorgeous necklace on, I will compliment her gorgeous necklace. 

But I limit the interaction to compliments like loving that color, or object.  I wouldn't feel comfortable complimenting a stranger on their smile or hairdo, let alone anything even more personal.

I do try to only compliment people on stuff that I genuinely find attractive, so it is not just a made-up compliment.  When trying on clothes and then checking them outside the changing room in front of the three-way mirror, someone will often tell me that they like the color or style of what I am trying on or will ask me what I think of what they are trying on.  I try to find something positive to say in response and find that both of us are smiling after the interaction.

However, you (general you) :) have to be able to read other people's body language.  I would never even think to speak to someone who was looking harassed, upset or sending out body language that made it clear that they didn't want to engage in a conversation.  So, the person digging in a bag, reading a magazine, checking their phone, looking off into the distance and so on is not a person I would start any sort of interaction with because they aren't sending out signals of wanting to interact.

When I asked my spouse how men tend to compliment other men, he said it was generally about stuff like their car/motorcycle/boat/gun/fishing rods/computers/phones or other technology stuff and that he can't remember ever giving another guy a compliment on anything more personal than that.  But he also said that compliments between guys about that kind of stuff were pretty common in his experience. :)

Auntie Mame

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Re: Paying compliments is rude?
« Reply #104 on: May 29, 2012, 03:23:26 PM »
But then how does anyone ever end up on a date/romantic relationship? Surely one has to be complimented at some point? Otherwise we'd all be single right? At what point is it ok for a man to play a compliment?



That's a little over dramatic don't you think?  When I met my current BF I asked him out on a date after we spent the entire night talking to each other (we met at a party).  He didn't compliment me on my body until after we were initmate and after he complimented me about other things (sense of humor, cooking what have you).  That showed me although he likes my body, that's not all he's into.
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