Is it wrong to use another kid's opinion UPDATE Pg. 4

[oogyda]

Peer pressure is not always a bad thing.

[weeblewobble]

UPDATE: I wasn't going to say anything. I was going to let DD work this out on her own.  And then, Kayla told DD that she has a "unibrow" and should take care of it. Please note that this was right after someone complimented DD on her big beautiful eyes.

After assuring DD that she doesn't have a unibrow.  (Seriously, if she did, I would take care of it.) I told DD, "Kayla does not treat you nicely.  I will not allow her to be rude you in your own home.  If you choose to continue to spend time with her, it will be when you play with other kids outside.  But honestly, I think you deserve better friends.  People who will be nice to you, who don't make you feel like less because it makes them feel better."

DD shrugged and said, "OK, then."

So far, Kayla has come to the door twice and I have told her DD is unavailable to play.  (Because DD is playing with other kids down the street.) I can't control who DD is social with at school, but since the girls are in different classes, I'm hoping it becomes less of an issue.

[gramma dishes]

...    I told DD, "Kayla does not treat you nicely.  I will not allow her to be rude you in your own home.  If you choose to continue to spend time with her, it will be when you play with other kids outside.  But honestly, I think you deserve better friends.  People who will be nice to you, who don't make you feel like less because it makes them feel better."

DD shrugged and said, "OK, then."

So far, Kayla has come to the door twice and I have told her DD is unavailable to play.  (Because DD is playing with other kids down the street.) I can't control who DD is social with at school, but since the girls are in different classes, I'm hoping it becomes less of an issue.

Good for you, Webblewobble.  And good for your daughter too!  It sounds like she gets it. 

But you didn't tell Kayla that DD was playing with the other kids down the street, did you?

[weeblewobble]

...    I told DD, "Kayla does not treat you nicely.  I will not allow her to be rude you in your own home.  If you choose to continue to spend time with her, it will be when you play with other kids outside.  But honestly, I think you deserve better friends.  People who will be nice to you, who don't make you feel like less because it makes them feel better."

DD shrugged and said, "OK, then."

So far, Kayla has come to the door twice and I have told her DD is unavailable to play.  (Because DD is playing with other kids down the street.) I can't control who DD is social with at school, but since the girls are in different classes, I'm hoping it becomes less of an issue.

Good for you, Webblewobble.  And good for your daughter too!  It sounds like she gets it. 

But you didn't tell Kayla that DD was playing with the other kids down the street, did you?

Heck, no!  I said, DD was unavailable, like I was her social secretary.    The underlying message being, "Go away, my daughter is very busy making friends with kids who (I hope) are nicer than you."

[Roe]

...    I told DD, "Kayla does not treat you nicely.  I will not allow her to be rude you in your own home.  If you choose to continue to spend time with her, it will be when you play with other kids outside.  But honestly, I think you deserve better friends.  People who will be nice to you, who don't make you feel like less because it makes them feel better."

DD shrugged and said, "OK, then."

So far, Kayla has come to the door twice and I have told her DD is unavailable to play.  (Because DD is playing with other kids down the street.) I can't control who DD is social with at school, but since the girls are in different classes, I'm hoping it becomes less of an issue.

Good for you, Webblewobble.  And good for your daughter too!  It sounds like she gets it. 

But you didn't tell Kayla that DD was playing with the other kids down the street, did you?

Heck, no!  I said, DD was unavailable, like I was her social secretary.    The underlying message being, "Go away, my daughter is very busy making friends with kids who (I hope) are nicer than you."

If Kayla persists, I do think it's fair to say "I'm not allowing you to play inside our home any longer."  Actions have consequences.  She's rude to your daughter so she can't come play inside your house. 

You've been more patient with Kayla than most.  She had more than one chance to "shape up" and didn't so good for you!

My son invited a "one-upper" to our house ONCE.  That's all it took for me to say "I don't want that kid here."    My son understood and they remained friends at school. 

[NyaChan]

I think you handled that in a remarkably strained manner.  I hope your daughter finds better friends soon! 

[SuperMartianRobotGirl]

I've told neighborhood kids, "You don't treat SuperMartianRobotDaughter well, so I'm not going to let you play here. It's a fair thing to say. But you might get a call from Kayla's mom and need to have a conversation with her. The thing is that kids are very literal and are not going to get any more than what you say out of a conversation. If you say your daughter is unavailable, all she's probably hearing is that your daughter is unavailable, NOT that you don't want her to play at your house. You have to be explicit and literal with kids if you want them to know what you're talking about. They don't make the inferences adults make.

[blarg314]

Chiming in late, but it occurred to me that one downside of using the other kid's opinion for your own argument is that it could very easily be taken as "See, other child doesn't like Kayla, so you shouldn't either".  In other contexts, that sort of logic can lead to some pretty cruel ostracisms of kids.

[Sheepsis]

Just a piece of advice from a person who has been friends with a Kayla (or even more than one) for most of her life.
Instead of using your energy to convince your daughter to stay away from Kayla, use it to help your daughter to grow a titanium spine and a firm self esteem. Because she will come across more than one Kayla in her life. They grow like weed. Once youīve got rid of one Kayla, three grow back.
In my opinion, Kaylas have to be pittied. They lack self-esteem, so they have to make someone small, just to have the feeling to be superior.

Iīve been friends with a one-upper (oh, how I love this expression!) since childhood days. I was an overweight, shy and self-concious child and was always very intimidated by her comments. Bigger house, better at school, richer parents, prettier face, smarter brain, lying and boasting --> just kayla-esque behaviour as you described. Behaviour getting almost unbearable through our teenage years and early 20s.
Since then, with the help of relatives, friends and overall positive experiences, Iīve developed a quite impregnable self-esteem. I simply stopped caring about what others think of me. I will never be able to reach their standards, but as long as Iīm able to reach the standards Iīve set for myself, I live a rather carefree life. I will never be the smartest, prettiest, wealthiest person in the world, so why care.
Friend has changed a lot during the past years as well. Becoming a nicer person. Thatīs why Iīm still friends with her. But sometimes her inner Kayla shows again. For these situations Iīve learned to give her a sip of her own medicine. I still remember our childhood days and now it is time to pay back.  (You know, I forgive, but I never forget.)
She still has the need to boast and challenge me, but I take me revenge in simply not being impressed and making fun of her. Just let me give a few examples. (I know, some of my comments are mean and probably rude, but ..he.. she didnīt care about my feelings back then either.)

- Friend and me trying on same dress. Both looked good in it. (I migh add, Iīm still on the heavier side but with better proportions than she has.)
 Friend: "I canīt buy this dress. My bum looks sooo incredibly big in this dress." (Which by the way is not true.) looks at me. "Donīt you think this is the problem with the dress for you as well??" ( Lady, my bum looks big in absolutely everything. )
Me: "I canīt tell. Iīm physically not able to see my own bum. So, if it looks too big that might be more of a problem for the person walking behind me. And should it be necessary, Iīll just lean against a wall." and bought the dress.

- Constant topic of designer clothes. (I love to shop. But I love to have lots of clothes for less money, while she thinks that clothes from certain high-price brands make her a better person.)
Friend: "Look, Iīve bought these *needlessly high-priced* designer jeans for $ 400 . Iīm so glad, I can afford that."
Me: "Well, I guess so, because you just earn a little less than I do." (I know, this is mean and rude, but after boasting about how much she earns for years, she recently found out that I actually earn more than she does.  )
Friend: "Well, but arenīt you impressed that I bought them?" (Yes, she really used "impressed.")
Me: "Impressed that you paid $ 400 for a pair of jeans? No, I would be impressed if youīve paid $ 50 for this designer jeans, but $ 400 is just .... well, YOU can afford it. Have you tasted the bean-dip yet?"

- The mother of another friend is also into designer clothes, but her weight is constantly yoyo-ing. So he has them in all sizes. Everytime she looses weight, my friend gets a bunch of clothes which donīt fit her mum anymore. Friend is taller and smaller than mum and I, so I always end up getting the clothes..for free. Mum is so delighted that at least someone is still wearing her beloved clothes.
So, one-upper friendīs favorite sentence everytime Iīm wearing one of the pieces: "Why are YOU wearing a *piece of clothes* from *designer brand*? I didnīt know you can afford that?"
Me (whispering): "You know Iīve got one of these sugar daddies who gives me expensive things for playing scrabble." (The look on her face is priceless. )

Sorry for making this post so long, but Iīve enjoyed to recapitulate these stories.

But to cut a long story short: You probably canīt shield your daughter from all the Kaylas in her life, but you can give her the tools to handle them.

[weeblewobble]

Sheepsis, good advice.

DH and I have been covertly working this plan for a while.  She's joining the elementary school's running club, which has regular races.  She has found her niche in swimming.  Her reading skills have really improved this summer.  We're hoping that if she has enough successes that her self-confidence will improve and she will be less of a target for the Kaylas.

[SleepyKitty]

I also agree with a PP that it's worthwhile to tell Kayla that she can't come over anymore because of her behaviour. I know you talked to your DD about Kayla, but it might be useful for your DD to see (or hear about) you actually dealing directly with Kayla. Kind of like a model for behaviour for dealing with people like that. It seems like you're kind of sending mixed messages - telling your DD that the way Kayla acts is not alright, but not demonstrating a polite spine and telling Kayla that the way she acts is not alright, and therefore she is no longer invited over.

As far as Kayla's parents, this situation reminds me of one that was on the board awhile ago, about a parent who found out their son was banned from another little boy's house but didn't know why. If Kayla's parents call you to ask what's going on, I would tell them.

[Reason]

I would agree with everyone, if Kayla and DD were both a bit older and set in their ways of thinking. Then sure, finding new and better friends seems wiser. However, since Kayla is only 8 and DD seems to like her, I don't think she's locked into being a one-upper for the rest of her life with no hope to change. Kayla is just a kid, so I can't imagine it would be difficult to debunk her stories.

"Oh, you went to the Bahamas? Where did you stay? Freetown? (I know Freetown is in Sierra Leon, but the 8 year old doesn't." When caught in a lie, you can then ask her why she felt the need to make something like that up.

"You dad's job is better than my dads? What does your dad do exactly? How is being a banker any 'better' than being a 'janitor'?"
At the very least she'd have to think about it.

I feel a bit sorry for Kayla as she seems to have formed a very materialistic and judgmental approach somewhere along the way, but that doesn't mean she can't be guided to learn to think about what she says and how it affects those close to her.

[MasterofSquirrels]

Reason, I don't agree.

I think that Kayla's parents need to teach her to not be materialistic minded. The OP has no responsability to Kayla. The OP's daughter shouldn't have to concern herself with petty one-upmanship. The OP needs to teach her daughter to be strong and confident more than she needs to teach Kayla anything. Clearly the OP is doing this. I don't think it will benefit anyone for the OP to follow Kayla around with a lie scoresheet and call her on it.

Kayla will either learn or she won't. Catching her in a lie won't change anything.

You are right that they are only kids and Kayla may change. I just don't feel it's the job of the OP to put her on the path to change.

[Solanna Dryden]

- Friend and me trying on same dress. Both looked good in it. (I migh add, Iīm still on the heavier side but with better proportions than she has.)
 Friend: "I canīt buy this dress. My bum looks sooo incredibly big in this dress." (Which by the way is not true.) looks at me. "Donīt you think this is the problem with the dress for you as well??" ( Lady, my bum looks big in absolutely everything. )
Me: "I canīt tell. Iīm physically not able to see my own bum. So, if it looks too big that might be more of a problem for the person walking behind me. And should it be necessary, Iīll just lean against a wall." and bought the dress.

That made me laugh. I'm glad you bought the dress!

I see that the situation has been mostly resolved, but I also wondered - has your daughter ever been to Kayla's house? If she has, then she would see that it isn't bigger, she doesn't have more toys/a flat-screen TV/ an executive butler, whatever. It might drive home a little more how big of a liar Kayla is, and might open her up to considering the relationship from different angles.

[weeblewobble]

UPDATE Kayla hasn't been coming over lately.  After the "unibrow" incident, I think she figured out she was no longer welcome, so she has stopped coming to our door to ask for DD.  Meanwhile, DD has been playing a lot with the Nice Kids next door, who continue to be wonderfully well-mannered kids, and has made friends with the other new neighborhood kids down the street, who have also turned out to be very sweet kids. 

Kayla only joins in and plays with the group occasionally.  And from what I heard yesterday, the kids are policing themselves when it comes to the one-upping and rudeness.  I was working in the yard when I heard the kids talking from the Nice Kids yard.  Nice Kid sister and Sarah, one of the new kids down the street, were talking about a kind of doll they like. Kayla sniffed that those dolls were boring and she liked some other kind of doll.   Sarah, who is a year or two older, said, "Well, I guess I don't have to worry about you playing with my boring dolls." and continued the conversation with Nice Kid sis as if Kayla hadn't interjected.

The kids moved into our garage, because Nice Kid brother wanted to see the new bike DD got for her birthday.  DD has some coordination problems - part of the reason we have her in martial arts - and is having some trouble keeping her balance on it, so she still has training wheels. (She's doing better every day.)  The other kids were trying to give DD tips on how to stay upright, and if not, how to fall so it wouldn't hurt as much.  

Kayla saw the training wheels and burst out laughing.  "You still have TRAINING WHEELS?  My brother is 6 and he doesn't have training wheels.  My brother is ahead of you!" 

I was on my into the garage to tell Kayla it was time to go, but Nice Kid brother responded, "Hey, she just started out.  She's trying hard, and it's mean to make fun of her."*  The other kids nodded and agreed that it was mean, while DD sort of looked around in shock that someone said something to defend her.  Kayla found a reason to go home a few minutes later.

So I think the situation may resolve itself eventually and DD is picking up on the group's social cues and responses to Kayla's behavior.  In the mean time, it seems like DD is making some nice new friends. I couldn't be more pleased.


*Seriously, I wanted to go in there and throw my arms around that kid, but I figured that would be weird.