Author Topic: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update pg. 9, 15, 20, 29  (Read 71529 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

miranova

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1863
Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
« Reply #120 on: September 08, 2012, 01:52:43 PM »
Dave's behavior is worse than Louise's behavior.  Not the same, worse.  This is his SISTER we are talking about.  It may have initially been Louise's idea to uninvite Susan, but that is just a technicality.  Dave has uninvited his own sister to his wedding due to her disability.  All of this talk about telling the parents or not telling the parents seems moot.  Of course this is going to come out.  We are talking about sibling and their parents, not acquaintences.  I would not be all coy with my own parents about why I'm not attending my brother's wedding.  I wouldn't be telling them for the PURPOSE of getting them to hate Louise, I would be telling them because they are my parents and they'd be expecting to see me at my brother's wedding!  There is no way I'd let my parents think that I'm refusing to go.  I'd go so far as to say that the parents deserve to know from Susan that she will not be attending.  How unfair would it be if they showed up to their son's wedding and THEN found out that Susan wasn't coming?  That would create far MORE drama, not less.  So yes the parents should be told that Susan has been univited to her brother's wedding, and I don't think it would be wrong to say why when asked.

Aquaintances, friends, extended family on the other hand....sure no reason to go out of your way to tell them. 

AngelBarchild

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 290
Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
« Reply #121 on: September 08, 2012, 02:06:26 PM »
How is this not a bullying situation?  Honest question.  I can't see it as anything else.

Because there is no pattern of behavior. It is not bullying be nasty or mean to someone in a one time incident. If it was, everyone on the planet would be a bully, because everyone has done something awful to another person at some point. If everyone is a bully then the term loses all meaning.

Distant Star said this was a bullying situation.  She didn't say that Louise was a bully, but that the behaviour was.  You don't need a pattern of behaviour to call out one instance of behaviour as "bullying", you only need that pattern of behaviour to label a person as a bully.

It is impossible to have a "bullying situation" is no one is being a bully. Otherwise it's just someone being mean and nasty.

LeveeWoman

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4137
Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
« Reply #122 on: September 08, 2012, 02:20:10 PM »
How is this not a bullying situation?  Honest question.  I can't see it as anything else.

Because there is no pattern of behavior. It is not bullying be nasty or mean to someone in a one time incident. If it was, everyone on the planet would be a bully, because everyone has done something awful to another person at some point. If everyone is a bully then the term loses all meaning.

Distant Star said this was a bullying situation.  She didn't say that Louise was a bully, but that the behaviour was.  You don't need a pattern of behaviour to call out one instance of behaviour as "bullying", you only need that pattern of behaviour to label a person as a bully.

It is impossible to have a "bullying situation" is no one is being a bully. Otherwise it's just someone being mean and nasty.

Demanding someone alter her appearance or risk being told to not come IS bullying.

Bethalize

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4713
    • Toxic People Survival Checklist
Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
« Reply #123 on: September 08, 2012, 02:24:47 PM »
How is this not a bullying situation?  Honest question.  I can't see it as anything else.

Because there is no pattern of behavior. It is not bullying be nasty or mean to someone in a one time incident. If it was, everyone on the planet would be a bully, because everyone has done something awful to another person at some point. If everyone is a bully then the term loses all meaning.

(1) Probably everyone has been guilty of bullying behaviour at some point in their lives.
(2) Calling people "bullies" is dehumanising and I'm not a fan of it.
(3) Bullyonline.org says - and I agree - that "Bullying is persistent unwelcome behaviour, mostly using unwarranted or invalid criticism, nit-picking, fault-finding, also exclusion, isolation, being singled out and treated differently, being shouted at, humiliated, excessive monitoring, having verbal and written warnings imposed, and much more."
(4) There may not yet be a repeated pattern of behaviour, but one iteration is the pattern.

Mammavan3

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 356
Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
« Reply #124 on: September 08, 2012, 02:41:25 PM »
A bully is a person who uses an advantage s/he has over another (size, position, aggressiveness, support from others) to coerce or intimidate that person. Louise's actions are bullying because she is using her power to rescind the invitation to her wedding (and she is acting as if it is HER wedding and not THEIR wedding) to force Susan to do something she does not wish to do.

asb8

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 489
Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
« Reply #125 on: September 08, 2012, 02:56:59 PM »
OP here,

Wow, I can't believe the volume of responses here.  Thank you for all the good advice. 

To answer a few questions:

1. Susan and Dave do not have have other siblings.  Their father died a few years ago and their mother isn't in the greatest of health.
2. Dave and Louise are paying for the wedding themselves
3. Louise has never before indicated that she has a problem with Susan's arm or that she wanted Susan to wear a different dress.
4. Susan very much feels that she and Louise are adults and that any problems between them should be worked out between them.

That being said, Susan is reluctant to bring this to her mother or anyone else really.  This is the first time she's experience any blatant disapproval because of her arm and she's rather embarassed.

She's asked Dave to meet her for lunch in a couple of days to talk, once she has had a chance to really think through what she wants to do. 

Amara

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2481
Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
« Reply #126 on: September 08, 2012, 03:03:11 PM »
OP, I would really like to know a few more things. They wouldn't change my opinion that Dave bears the greater responsibility here for the decision, whether he was active in it or not, and that Louise is being unbelievably cruel. However, it would enlighten the situation, I think, if we knew (not necessarily in the order in which I have asked them) . . .

(1) if Dave and Susan's parents know about the demands Louise has made and what their feelings are?

(2) if other family members or close friends know and what their feelings are?

(3) how long Dave and Louise have been together?

(4) how much time and in what situations (one-on-one, family holiday parties, etc.) Louise and Susan have had together?

(5) if Louise has ever expressed distaste or other negative things to Dave or anyone else about Susan?

(6) if Dave and Susan are close or if Dave doesn't particularly like his sister (for whatever reason)?

(7) if Louise has ever shown any "weird" reactions to anything else or demanded her opinion is the only one that counts; in other words, has she shown signs of being a Special Snowflake in other situations?

[8] if Louise's body language indicates she is uncomfortable (or worse) around Susan?


ETA: I see you posted an update while I was typing. Ah, that's good additional information. Maybe Susan is doing the right thing by waiting a couple of days then talking to Dave alone. I hope it works out.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2012, 03:09:39 PM by Amara »

lisat

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 192
Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
« Reply #127 on: September 08, 2012, 03:03:29 PM »
I wonder how close Susan is to her parents? As a parent I know when something is bothering my adult children and ask. I would assume that the parents are excited about the wedding and would know if their daughter is now less than excited and would ask her. I would be furious and have a "come to momma" talk with my son. This would undoubtedly kill any chance of a close relationship with my new DIL but so be it. It was her behavior that is sooo unacceptable that it is mind boggling. I would probably talk to her mother and tell why hubby and I would not be attending the wedding because you can bet that I would not support them.

Calypso

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2734
Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
« Reply #128 on: September 08, 2012, 03:18:26 PM »
Susan is embarrassed? I'm horrified. Louise and Dave need to be held accountable for that, even if they do make up for the rest of their behavior. They need to get on their knees and apologize, figuratively speaking.
 Can we stop arguing about whether or not this is "bullying," by the way? Who cares? No posters have suggested that what Louise said is ok. The label is secondary. We all agree, the behavior is just wrong.

I'll be very interested to hear updates. I'm a little sorry that Susan is going through Dave and taking a kind of softer approach----I can see Dave weasle-ing out with "Louise just wants everything to be perfect for her special daaaaay" and not owning his own part in this.

Please encourage Susan to forget about being embarrassed. Angry, yes. Embarrassed---no way!!

Queen of Clubs

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1788
Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
« Reply #129 on: September 08, 2012, 03:23:56 PM »
Susan is embarrassed? I'm horrified. Louise and Dave need to be held accountable for that, even if they do make up for the rest of their behavior. They need to get on their knees and apologize, figuratively speaking.
 Can we stop arguing about whether or not this is "bullying," by the way? Who cares? No posters have suggested that what Louise said is ok. The label is secondary. We all agree, the behavior is just wrong.

I'll be very interested to hear updates. I'm a little sorry that Susan is going through Dave and taking a kind of softer approach----I can see Dave weasle-ing out with "Louise just wants everything to be perfect for her special daaaaay" and not owning his own part in this.

Please encourage Susan to forget about being embarrassed. Angry, yes. Embarrassed---no way!!

I agree with all of this.  Susan has nothing to be embarrassed over.  Louise, on the other hand, should be scarlet with shame.

If Dave supports his fiance in ostracising his sister for her disability, then shame on him too.

Unless they apologise to Susan, Susan shouldn't attend the wedding.  Instead, when asked, she should (as other posters have said), reply that she was asked to not attend as her disability upsets Louise.  The risk in waiting to be asked is that it'll allow Louise and Dave to answer first, if anyone asks at the wedding.

If Dave goes ahead and marries Louise and supports her in her stance, then I can't see his relationship with his sister lasting.

Yankeegal77

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 271
Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
« Reply #130 on: September 08, 2012, 03:26:02 PM »
OP, thanks for the update. I'm so very sad For Susan and infuriated on her behalf.

She definitely needs to talk to Dave. And for heaven's sake, it's LOUISE that should be embarrassed, not Susan!

Dave ought to just be ashamed of himself. Plain and simple. This is his SISTER. (Sheesh, even *my* brother, who takes a lot of garbage from his live-in girlfriend,  risked her wrath and drama and took my side when said domestic partner decided to boycott my visit home last Christmas!)

I would still bring it up with her mother, or if she has a close, preferably older, relative. Someone who can advise her on how to approach this with Dave. Just so someone in the family knows the whole story and can quietly spread the word. There *is* a genteel way to state facts to others who might inquire about the situation.

Someone asks: Say, where's Susan? Is she ill--why is she missing her brother's wedding?

Relative/friend: Unfortunately, Louise and Dave uninvited Susan, as she was unable to wear the prosthetic and it made Louise uncomfortable.

Stating of facts *when asked* is not rude in this case, IMO. No name calling, no speculation...just the facts. If guests decide to confront Louise or no longer associate with her, well...she reaps what she sows.

As for speaking with Dave--gently telling him that she loves and supports him, and wants him to be happy,  but that she has been deeply hurt are all appropriate.

I don't see this as any different, honestly, of telling a future SIL that her adopted child of a different race will disrupt the all-Caucasian line-up, so not only is the little girl not in the wedding, could she leave her kid home, or sit in the back of the church? Or telling your fiance's sister with a newly-diagnosed thyroid issue that the weight she has been putting on will make your attendant line look bad. This is discrimination. Call it for what it is. Maybe it's out of line, but I subscribe to the fact that you treat your wedding guests as people, not props.

Dave needs to seriously consider the character of the woman he is about to marry, as well as his own. Sounds like neither of them is mature enough to enter a state of matrimony.

Anyway, I'm hoping for the best for Susan. Please keep us updated. She sounds like a lovely woman and I'd happily let her wear whatever she wanted as a bridesmaid.

HonorH

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2977
Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
« Reply #131 on: September 08, 2012, 03:31:08 PM »
Susan should tell Dave, "I'm willing to step down from the bridal party. At this point, I don't want to be in it anymore. But if I don't attend the wedding, do you want to be the one to have to explain to Mom why I'm not there? If Louise will compromise that far, no more will be said about it. I respect her less for this, but that'll be between the two of us. You are in the middle of it, bro, whether you like it or not, because you're letting her treat me like a freak and acting like it's fine with you if she does. I'm really disappointed and hurt."
William wondered why he always disliked people who said "no offense meant." Maybe it was because they found it easier to say "no offense meant" than actually to refrain from giving offense.

--Terry Pratchett, The Truth

JenJay

  • I'm a nonconformist who doesn't conform to the prevailing standards of nonconformity.
  • Super Hero!
  • ****
  • Posts: 5800
Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
« Reply #132 on: September 08, 2012, 03:34:39 PM »
Susan should tell Dave, "I'm willing to step down from the bridal party. At this point, I don't want to be in it anymore. But if I don't attend the wedding, do you want to be the one to have to explain to Mom why I'm not there? If Louise will compromise that far, no more will be said about it. I respect her less for this, but that'll be between the two of us. You are in the middle of it, bro, whether you like it or not, because you're letting her treat me like a freak and acting like it's fine with you if she does. I'm really disappointed and hurt."

I change my answer to ^ this!

gramma dishes

  • Super Hero!
  • ****
  • Posts: 7925
Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard!
« Reply #133 on: September 08, 2012, 03:36:16 PM »
...    and I'd happily let her wear whatever she wanted as a bridesmaid.

And I'd happily let her NOT wear whatever she wanted too!  She doesn't want to wear her prosthetic arm?  In the drawer it stays.

Venus193

  • Super Hero!
  • ****
  • Posts: 15807
  • Backstage passes are wonderful things!
Re: Possibly the most outrageous request I've ever heard! Update/info pg. 9
« Reply #134 on: September 08, 2012, 03:41:51 PM »
I have no new suggestions; just posting for updates.

I agree with the earlier post that "all it takes to bring about rudeness is for polite people to say nothing."