How to handle difficult meeting on interpersonal issues? Update New Question #48

[O'Dell]

It's funny you mention the Narcissist test. I was just thinking this person sounds like a woman that was a member of a church I belonged to. I had blurted out one day that I thought she was a narcissist and decided to research and darned if I didn't seem to be right about it!

And the next day, I found out that Jen is saying she is quitting because she was bullied.  This has stirred a whole passel of emotions in me: relief that I might not have to deal with her anymore.  Sorrow that a person is so upset that they would leave a club they love.  Concern that her words will negatively affect me, my friends, the projects we're working on.  Incredulousness that something so small (a presentation? at one event?) grew so large.  Sadness that we couldn't get through to this very talented person, to clear out the muck and make it so she could be a part of things without conflict with others.

I suspect, like "my" narcissist, Jen is actually driving people away from your club. People on the periphery who see her behavior and/or the fall-out or even the one's that experience the disorganization caused by her procrastination or demands quietly slip away. You and the others in management are too busy keeping Jen happy to notice.

I say let her go. Things will blow over. People that care about the club with get over it. And this wasn't about one event. It was about all that had gone before. If this event hadn't triggered a big blow out, something would have. Think about the good of this: you and Tomas were putting a lot of energy toward placating Jen. Now you can put that toward your club.

[BeagleMommy]

Nutella, I understand your feelings about Jen feeling she has to leave.  However, you cannot change her.  You cannot help her unless and until she acknowledges she needs help.  From your posts, it sounds like you and others in the group tried various avenues to make Jen see the error of her ways.  What more could you have done?

She will view any criticism as an attack.  If people aren't singing her praises from the highest mountain top they are bullies who like to pick on her.  She works in extremes and dealing with her will exhaust everyone around.

Sometimes there is no other choice but to say "She needed to leave".

[StuffedGrapeLeaves]

I suspect, like "my" narcissist, Jen is actually driving people away from your club. People on the periphery who see her behavior and/or the fall-out or even the one's that experience the disorganization caused by her procrastination or demands quietly slip away. You and the others in management are too busy keeping Jen happy to notice.

This is a very good point.  NutellaNut, your time and empathy are best spent on other people, not on Jen.

[bopper]

Sorrow that a person is so upset that they would leave a club they love. 

If she is a Narcissist, then she is not upset because she is leaving what she loves, she is leaving because she is upset that she is no longer getting her "supply".

Narcissistic supply  describes a type of admiration, interpersonal support or sustenance drawn by an individual from his or her environment (especially from careers, codependents and others).

So if she does not get to be Jen who saves the day and Jen who knows all and Jen who must be consulted and Jen who runs everything and even Jen who causes unrest then this is not the place for her.

She feels "bullyied" because you all are setting boundaries and consequences. A Narcissist would not be interested in that.  She will now get some "supply" from her martyrdom for a while.

Read up on Narcissitic injury (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_rage_and_narcissistic_injury) and be prepared.  Document things because she may try to re-write history.

[AngelicGamer]

I suspect, like "my" narcissist, Jen is actually driving people away from your club. People on the periphery who see her behavior and/or the fall-out or even the one's that experience the disorganization caused by her procrastination or demands quietly slip away. You and the others in management are too busy keeping Jen happy to notice.

As someone who is in a group that has a narcissist that is close to the admin people, this is exactly happening to me as someone who is on the edges.  I slipped away from the group and did it quietly, so only my friends on the website knew that I was gone.  When asked why, I don't hold back why I left.  A few of my friends have left quietly as well.  They felt that something was off but couldn't place it until I pointed it out to them.

So, in a way, it is very good that Jen is leaving.  You know the entire "When a door closes, a window opens" or something of the like?  You might find that someone on the edge is equally as talented or even more so with less drama that felt they couldn't say anything. 

[Julian]

Sorrow that a person is so upset that they would leave a club they love. 

If she is a Narcissist, then she is not upset because she is leaving what she loves, she is leaving because she is upset that she is no longer getting her "supply".

Narcissistic supply  describes a type of admiration, interpersonal support or sustenance drawn by an individual from his or her environment (especially from careers, codependents and others).

So if she does not get to be Jen who saves the day and Jen who knows all and Jen who must be consulted and Jen who runs everything and even Jen who causes unrest then this is not the place for her.

She feels "bullyied" because you all are setting boundaries and consequences. A Narcissist would not be interested in that.  She will now get some "supply" from her martyrdom for a while.

Read up on Narcissitic injury (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_rage_and_narcissistic_injury) and be prepared.  Document things because she may try to re-write history.

POD to what Bopper has written.  NPD types are all about the supply - attention, negative or positive.  Playing the martyr card is common when they don't get what they're after. 

My mother is textbook NPD.  Nothing anybody can do for her is good enough.  One can bend over backwards to the point of breaking, and it will never be enough.  Standing up to her results in tantrums, tears, martyrdom, lies, rages.  She has, in the past, gone as far as false police reports for perceived transgressions.

It would be nice to think that Jen will voluntarily leave your organisation permanently, however I suspect you will get the 'waaaah nobody loves me', and she will be in and out of the organisation, throwing everything and everyone into chaos, for some time to come. 

Be prepared for her to project her own behaviour onto everyone in the group as well - accuse you or others of things she's done.  Again, this is a classic NPD behaviour.  As Bopper wisely said, she may well rewrite history so please document everything as it happens.

If Jen does leave, please, count your blessings.  Also be prepared for her to turn up some time in the future as if nothing has happened, all chummy and happy, to start all the drama again. 

[GrammarNerd]

It's wonderful and admirable that despite everything, you feel sad for her.  But Jen has done this to herself.  She seems to live in an alternate universe where she is queen and everything must go her way.  When it doesn't, it's like there's a time ripple into the regular universe that causes her to lash out and invent stories. 

You live in the real world.  You don't need her brand of reality.

And how talented is she, really?  Because from what you've posted, it seems as though her greatest talent is actually just pilfering from others.  Or perhaps promoting herself and how great she is, without doing any of the work to actually DEMONSTRATE why she's so great.  So is all of her 'talent' worth the cost of dealing with her: chasing her around for information/answers, putting up with her tantrums, and listening to her verbally disparage or even LIE about people?

Yes, CYA.  Definitely CYA.  Only communicate with her via email, so you have a record.  If you talk with her in person, always have another person with you as a witness to the meeting.  You don't have to volunteer why the other person is there, but if (when) she balks at that, then you can sweetly say that you felt it was a good idea since there seem to be so many differing opinions of interactions, decisions made and words used.

Good luck to you, and take a deep breath and realize that you WILL be better without her.

[Lindee]

Rather than worry about the feelings of the frankly rather horrible Jen , I'm more concerned about how Tomas feels after being virtually made to apologise to her after all the dreadful things she has done to him and the very strong feeling he might have that her feelings and continued participation in the group are considered to be much more important than his.

[Shoo]

Rather than worry about the feelings of the frankly rather horrible Jen , I'm more concerned about how Tomas feels after being virtually made to apologise to her after all the dreadful things she has done to him and the very strong feeling he might have that her feelings and continued participation in the group are considered to be much more important than his.

I know!  Tomas definitely got the shaft in all this.  HE'S the one you should feel sorry for, NutellaNut.  Jen, whatever her problems may be, is a very unpleasant person.  I agree with those who said, "Good riddance." 

[johelenc1]

Jen may in pain, but it is not your job, nor the job your organization to "fix" her or be her therapy group.  If it helps, you probably wouldn't be able to anyway.  Personality disorders are incredibly difficult to treat even by trained therapists.  You aren't going to have much luck at all getting her to change.

Armchair shrinking aside, just behavior wise, Jen isn't going to change because she doesn't believe she has done anything wrong.  She is, and always shall be, the victim.

Let her go.  In fact, I don't know why you aren't all encouraging her to go.  When I first read the line about you talking to her mentor to give her encouragement, that's what I thought you meant!  Encouragement that this group may not be a good match for her!  If nothing else, she will probably stop threatening it if you start agreeing with it because her satisfaction is in having everyone just beg her to stay.  If you agree with her and she doesn't get that reaction, she probably won't know what to do.

I will say however, that I think it's really disappointing that you gave her this chance to throw this fit in the first place.  A group was already preparing a presentation.  Why in the world didn't you just let them?  Because Jen makes such a fuss.  She is basically controlling the group by making people afraid to deal with her.  Is that really how you want to be controlled?

Again, let her go.  It's nice of you to care, but other than giving her the card of a good psychologist (if you really think she's NPD), there's nothing more you can do to make this situation better.  Your responsibility is now to the rest of the group.   They deserve attention too.

[Bethalize]

Sympathy. Narcissists are really, really hard to deal with. They can be lovely, they can be fun but they simply don't change.

Personally I'm kicking myself right now because I've just realised that someone I had tagged in my head as "narcissistic" is, in fact, a narcissist. That's it. Game over. Things won't improve. I am the only one with the ability to change in this relationship. Please, learn from my bitter previous experience and realise that you can't help a narcissist function.

[camlan]

What do you care for more, Jen's happiness or the welfare of the organization?

You had a group of people who had prepared a presentation for a convention. They were getting a chance to step in front of the other members of the organization, show what they could do, get a little face time. They probably put a lot of work into that presentation.

Then, 24 hours before they go on, you decide to let Jen do the presentation. How do you think that entire group felt? While one or two might have felt relief over not having to speak in front of a crowd, I'll bet there was mass unhappiness, complaints about having done all that work for nothing, anger at Jen and maybe at you if they knew your role in the matter, worry that they aren't considered "good enough" to put on a presentation.

Why should Jen's feelings outweigh Tomas's and the feelings of every single member of that presentation group?

[LeveeWoman]

Please stop enabling Jen.

[Corvid]

I'm actually fairly depressed about the whole thing.  My DH and some others are basically saying "Good riddance" because of all the pain and strife she has caused over the last 16 months, but I can't feel happy about this.  I know she's a pain, but I also know she's *in* pain, an emotional mess, and I just feel for her as an empathetic human being.  And yet, I can't say I truly want to persuade her not to go.  I'm so ambivalent about it.

I think you might be making the mistake of assuming that she must feel the way you would feel if it were you in her situation.  She may not.

If she's truly a narcissist, remember that's in her hard drive and not a program that can be rewritten.  There will never be anything you can say that will make her get it.  She's never going to have a "light bulb" moment when it clicks.

Here's an excerpt from http://www.zimbio.com/Narcissistic+personality+disorder/articles/132/Do+Narcissists+Have+Feelings:

But today's thought is simply this: the narcissist/abuser has tender feelings that they coddle and caress and expect you to do the same for their poor little feelings. Conversely, they will trample, disregard and spit on your feelings. This is a sign of their basely selfish and corrupt natures and isn't your cue to capitulate. Expect them to be 'hurt' when you state reality. Expect them to look wounded to the core when you don't perform properly your "duty" by them. Remember 'til your dying day that the narcissist and the abuser are filled with the tenderest sympathy for themselves, but can spare none or little for you.

Whether or not Jen has NPD, she certainly has been the squeaky wheel sucking up all the grease.  Her wants and feelings have been prioritized over the wants and feelings of others and for no good reason that we've been told about here.

[iridaceae]

I think you're wrong in assuming that she's particularily empathetic; emotional and drama queen do not mean any ability at empathy.