It's because of your kid UPDATE pg 6, 14

[still in va]

I can enjoy quiet conversation but I have no desire to.  The reason we all gravitated together as friends is because we're all loud, boisterous people who share the same weird sense of humor.  No one else in the group has shown any displeasure about the way we act except for Mark and Mary.  They're the ones who have changed from the group dynamic and I don't feel as if I have to alter my personality just because they have.  It is a give and take but we've tried it their way on 3 separate occasions and they have yet to reciprocate and join in on occasions that didn't take place in their home. 


Based on OP's early response it kind of sounds like the group dynamic is the primary concern which is what gives the club vs. friend vibe, IMO. I think that can be made clear without resorting to nasty phrasing like Claire used.

i would disagree.  i have already stated that i didn't agree with how Claire phrased it, but once Mary proclaimed that if anyone planned anything that they couldn't be a part of wasn't a friend, when they can't do such things because Mary refuses to get a babysitter, it was time for Mary to hear some home truths.

personally, i think it's long past time for Mary and Mark to find a new bunch of friends who are more in synch with their new reality of being parents.  it's most unfair for them to want all of their current group of friends to give up all fun activities that take place outside of their apartment, just so they can take part.

frankly, i'm surprised the group has humored them for this long.  i would have given them 6 months to figure it out.  not 18 months.

[snowdragon]

Eeep!, I think it is more because there is an indication that they don't want to have some events that accommodate Mark and Mary.  I absolutely think it is reasonable to schedule things that they can't attend but OP has indicated that there is not much interest in some give and take.

I have to disagree.  One of the main reasons this is such a problem is that all they do is take.  We have already changed plans and pushed the events to their house on 3 separate occasions despite all the shushing and the cramped space.  They have attended exactly 0 of the other events that weren't at their house and have complained about it.

Friendship is a give and take but they're not giving anything.

I'm going to be ducking her calls at least for the next few days and luckily work has been hectic with a new project so I'll at least have an excuse.

  At times in life friends need to be the givers to someone else's takers...and this can go on for extended periods of time, if say a family member has cancer or some other disease that can be acute for years, or a baby, or what ever. Usually in GOOD friendships these periods even out. And no one expects everyone else to stop living because of a  life changing event.
  The problem for me is the constraints Mark and Mary are putting on everyone else because of the life change...come over to visit and act normal? Sure thing, talk in whispers and only about the baby? that's extreme.
  Go to a park for a bbq so junior can join us, ok, I'll bite. Never do anything with out you, because you had junior? not so much.
  I think Mark and Mary are going to have a hard time finding friends even among parents with the conditions they set.....after all parents have kids and kids are hard to keep still and at a whisper.

[nolechica]

Devix, you might want to know where the other couples are on the scale between you and Claire. I say that because if you want to approach Mary, you need to know what to say.

[greencat]

I don't think Dervix should be speaking for the other couples - Dervix can speak for her?self.  Dervix does not like being forced to sit and whisper quietly - Dervix does not like never hanging out anywhere but Mark and Mary's apartment.  Dervix does not like the snide comment Mary made, and Dervix should probably be up front with Mary and say so - probably in a written missive, rather than over the phone.

Claire was rude - but so was Mary.  Also, it was how Claire expressed herself that was rude, whereas what Mary was expressing was rude in and of itself - passive-aggressive and selfish and insulting.

I would actually suggest asking the group admin to remove Mary and Claire's exchange.

[RingTailedLemur]

Claire was rude - but so was Mary.  Also, it was how Claire expressed herself that was rude, whereas what Mary was expressing was rude in and of itself - passive-aggressive and selfish and insulting.

Agreed.  Claire's words were rude, but the sentiment and meaning was absolutely right IMO.

[ellebelle]

Chiming in late here.....

Although I agree that Mary needs to get over it and leave the kid with a sitter if she wants to participate in some activities, I also don't see any indication that people have made any effort to do things to include her and her family. If that just isn't what the groups wants, then I think it is only fair to tell her that the group has no interest in family friendly activities.

However, I personally think that what Claire said is an absolutely SLAP in the face to Mary.  It seems that everyone is willing to say, well...she was rude but Mary deserved it. I thought that rudeness because of rudeness what NEVER ok. Personally, I wouldn't care to even be friends with someone who said I chose to 'pop out a brat.' So it seems like the group would get what they want anyway - to get rid of Mary and her family. I don't think that anyone handled this well, but it seems that no one has even been willing to talk to Mary about the problem, just talk horribly about her. Yes, she has been PA and NO, I don't think her requests are reasonable at all. However, even PA people who are my friends, I try to work with them occassionally. At least then I can say I tried. And if it doesn't work out, I talk to them and tell them why.

[still in va]

Chiming in late here.....

Although I agree that Mary needs to get over it and leave the kid with a sitter if she wants to participate in some activities, I also don't see any indication that people have made any effort to do things to include her and her family. If that just isn't what the groups wants, then I think it is only fair to tell her that the group has no interest in family friendly activities.

i'm not really sure what you mean by the bolded.  Devix has already stated that Mary and Mark want ALL activities changed from a night of bowling, seeing a comedy show, going to a bar, to the group going to their apartment where they will enjoy an evening of whispering so as not to wake the baby.  they don't want anyone to go anywhere but their apartment.  every time there is planning underway for an outing, Mary pops up and suggests everyone come to her place.  that's unreasonable.

to quote Devix:
The reason we all gravitated together as friends is because we're all loud, boisterous people who share the same weird sense of humor.  No one else in the group has shown any displeasure about the way we act except for Mark and Mary.  They're the ones who have changed from the group dynamic and I don't feel as if I have to alter my personality just because they have.  It is a give and take but we've tried it their way on 3 separate occasions and they have yet to reciprocate and join in on occasions that didn't take place in their home.

For those who suggested child-friendly activities...that just isn't an option right now.  Most of us work white-collar jobs and some of us are in grad school so the only time we really have to hang out are Friday and Saturday nights usually after 7.  Not a lot of child-friendly places are open that late and after a very long day at work we all just want to sit around and unwind.

Mary and Mark's lives changed substantially when they had a child.  that's what happens when one becomes parents.  but the rest of the group don't have to change their lives so completely.  frankly, i think part of the problem is that they have accommodated these two for far too long. 

this group is not a good fit for Mary and Mark at this point in their lives.  it would be a kindness to all concerned for Mary and Mark to try to make more family-oriented friends. 

[Sharnita]

Yeah, even if I didn't want to bend to Mary and Mark's will I think I'd be really put off by the nastiness of Claire's comment.  To use the phrase "popped out a brat" is just gratuitously mean.  I think the concept could be expressed clearly with blunt language that isn't actually aggressively offensive.

[lowspark]

Chiming in late here.....

Although I agree that Mary needs to get over it and leave the kid with a sitter if she wants to participate in some activities, I also don't see any indication that people have made any effort to do things to include her and her family. If that just isn't what the groups wants, then I think it is only fair to tell her that the group has no interest in family friendly activities.

However, I personally think that what Claire said is an absolutely SLAP in the face to Mary. It seems that everyone is willing to say, well...she was rude but Mary deserved it. I thought that rudeness because of rudeness what NEVER ok. Personally, I wouldn't care to even be friends with someone who said I chose to 'pop out a brat.' So it seems like the group would get what they want anyway - to get rid of Mary and her family. I don't think that anyone handled this well, but it seems that no one has even been willing to talk to Mary about the problem, just talk horribly about her. Yes, she has been PA and NO, I don't think her requests are reasonable at all. However, even PA people who are my friends, I try to work with them occassionally. At least then I can say I tried. And if it doesn't work out, I talk to them and tell them why.

Regarding the bolded, I don't think anyone is saying that what Claire said is ok. Everyone agrees that Claire went over the top with her choice of words and that she was incredibly rude.

But the point is that Mary is asking everyone to never ever do anything as a group other than meet at her and Mark's apartment and speak in hushed tones. To be honest, if I was a member of a group and one of the other members decided that we should one specific activity every single time we got together, even if that particular activity was the funnest thing ever, I'd object. The fun of getting together with friends is to do a variety of activities, otherwise it gets old. And on top of it, this group has acquiesced three times now, doing something they had not only had no interest in doing, but that made them completely uncomfortable for an entire evening, for the sake of this friendship. Instead of appreciating that and meeting the group half way, Mark and Mary now expect the group to do this every single time they get together. And when they don't, Mary posts snarky PA comments on the website.

Again, I don't condone or excuse Claire's comments in any way. She was completely out of line. But the original problem still exists. Mark and Mary are at fault here.

As a side note, when my kids were young, I had a group of friends who also had kids all around the same age range. We all got together fairly regularly but we did not do the same thing every time. We went out to a kid friendly restaurant or we got together at someone's house and played games or watched a movie, or we did a day activity and went to the park, etc. And yes, we did these kinds of things regardless of the fact that among us, we had kids ranging in age from infant to elementary school age.

[still in va]

I don't think you even need an excuse. I think it's pretty obvious that nothing's going to change, and maybe she needs to see that none of the other people in the group are siding with her. If they're such takers, I wouldn't be interested in sustaining the friendship anymore, either. I wouldn't pull a Claire if I were you, but I would be honest: "Sorry, Mary. Claire wasn't polite, but she was right. We're not going to change everything just because you guys had a kid. We don't expect you to do everything you used to with us, but you've made no effort whatsoever to compromise." You don't have to be all speechy like that, since that sounds pretty stilted, but I think she needs some directness. At worst, she'll stomp off and not be your friend anymore. At best, she might reevaluate her own role in this.

Ducking her calls and then claiming it was because of work will just drag out the misery for both of you.

i don't think the bolded is speechy in the least.  i think it's pretty darn near perfect, actually.  it's calm, it lays out the issue succinctly, and it makes it clear that Devix is not happy with Mary's expectations.

[Eden]

Yeesh. I'm totally on Claire's side here, but she pretty much ruined any chance of having a productive conversation with Mary that she or the rest of you might have had. If there ever was one.

Although maybe this is the avenue into the conversation. If the OP chooses to respond to Mary's calls she could gently say that she does not approve of what Claire said and acknowledge that it was hurtful and then lead into something along the lines of knowing it must be difficult not to always be able to participate, but that it also hurts her feelings when her friend makes comments that seem to begrudge her friends making plans similar to what they have always done. Maybe reiterate she doesn't agree with what Claire said but that she understands Claire's frustration.

That is if the OP cares to bother. I personally would have no time or patience for such passive aggressiveness.

[still in va]

Yeesh. I'm totally on Claire's side here, but she pretty much ruined any chance of having a productive conversation with Mary that she or the rest of you might have had. If there ever was one.

Although maybe this is the avenue into the conversation. If the OP chooses to respond to Mary's calls she could gently say that she does not approve of what Claire said and acknowledge that it was hurtful and then lead into something along the lines of knowing it must be difficult not to always be able to participate, but that it also hurts her feelings when her friend makes comments that seem to begrudge her friends making plans similar to what they have always done. Maybe reiterate she doesn't agree with what Claire said but that she understands Claire's frustration.

That is if the OP cares to bother. I personally would have no time or patience for such passive aggressiveness.

so would i.  her comment

Mary:  Funny.  Nice to know who our real friends are.  Real friends wouldn't keep scheduling stuff when they know we can't come.

was bad enough.  it's quite clear what her expectations are..."everything the way i want it to be, no one else gets a vote".  but then she called Claire to continue the argument?  nope, that would tear it for me.  i would be done.

i wonder if Mary was always like this, and it's just become more pronounced.

[NyaChan]

I would simply speak for myself and say "Mary, what happens between you and Clair is not my business.  As far as I am concerned, however, I am unwilling to stop going out with this group of friends simply because you can't or won't attend." and then hold firm on that.  If I was inclined to socialize with Mary if she was willing to compromise, I might mention that gatherings at her house have become stressful due to the new conditions, but that I'd be willing to work on an arrangement that might work for us both.

[Brockwest]

"Mary: Funny.  Nice to know who our real friends are.  Real friends wouldn't keep scheduling stuff when they know we can't come.
Claire:  Real friends know that the world doesn't stop spinning just because they popped out a brat."

Choking here laughing. Yes, yes, I know it was poor etiquette but who here hasn't wanted to actually say what everyone in the group was Really thinking after dealing with a demanding person." 

If Claire had just changed it to "because they had a kid," then she would have been on solid ground. Mary was attacking the group and it appears it was the last straw for Claire. Sounds like the group feels about the situation like the OP does.

[rose red]

"Mary: Funny.  Nice to know who our real friends are.  Real friends wouldn't keep scheduling stuff when they know we can't come.
Claire:  Real friends know that the world doesn't stop spinning just because they popped out a brat."

Choking here laughing. Yes, yes, I know it was poor etiquette but who here hasn't wanted to actually say what everyone in the group was Really thinking after dealing with a demanding person." 

Throw me into Ehell, but I laughed too.  And it was even worse because I first misread "popped" as "pooped"

I too would never ever say that out loud and since this was a written conversation, there was time to think of better words, but I couldn't help but laugh and secretly agree with Claire.